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Marco Rubio Tries to Walk Back His Creationist Admission

Negative publicity prompts disingenuous ‘clarification’
Wingnuts • Views: 22,021

Florida Sen. Marco Rubio is the latest GOP politician forced to “clarify” his anti-science comments: Rubio: Science, Faith ‘Not Inconsistent’ on Earth.

Speaking with POLITICO’s Mike Allen at a Playbook Breakfast event, Rubio clarified his beliefs about how the universe was created, saying he believes science’s conclusions — that the earth is four and a half billion years old — and his faith’s answers about the earth’s age aren’t mutually exclusive.

“Science says it’s about four and a half billion years old and my faith teaches that that’s not inconsistent,” the possible 2016 GOP presidential contender said. “The answer I gave was actually trying to make the same point the president made a few years ago, and that is there is no scientific debate on the age of the earth. I mean, it’s established pretty definitively as at least four and a half billion years old … I was referring to a theological debate and which is a pretty healthy debate.”

I’m long past the point of even thinking about giving Republican politicians the benefit of the doubt on issues like this one. Rubio is walking it back because he got stung by the negative publicity associated with admitting his creationist beliefs, and that’s the only motivation for his remarks.

More importantly, he doesn’t just talk about it, Rubio has actively worked to legitimize the teaching of creationism in Florida public schools, and has previously said the teaching of evolution “destroys the family” and compared it to communism under Fidel Castro.

Let’s get real: Marco Rubio is now pretending to “correct” himself because he can’t continue doing this kind of work with the media spotlight on him. And he is by no means an outlier in the Republican Party; creationism is the norm among GOP politicians.

It’s helpful to look back at the remarks that prompted this; here’s what Rubio actually said:

I’m not a scientist, man. I can tell you what recorded history says, I can tell you what the Bible says, but I think that’s a dispute amongst theologians and I think it has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States. I think the age of the universe has zero to do with how our economy is going to grow. I’m not a scientist. I don’t think I’m qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all. I think parents should be able to teach their kids what their faith says, what science says. Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to answer that. It’s one of the great mysteries.

The bottom line, and the real purpose behind his comments about the age of the Earth, is to promote the teaching of creationism in public schools. This is a default Republican Party position.

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93 comments

1 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:06:09pm

Rubio must not read Conservative News and Views. Or WND. They'd set him straight. /

2 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:08:29pm

What he said:

I'm not a scientist, man. I can tell you what recorded history says, I can tell you what the Bible says, but I think that's a dispute amongst theologians and I think it has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States. I think the age of the universe has zero to do with how our economy is going to grow. I'm not a scientist. I don't think I'm qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all. I think parents should be able to teach their kids what their faith says, what science says. Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries.

We can answer if the earth was created in seven days. The answer is no, because that makes no fucking sense on any level.

3 Destro  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:09:38pm
'm not a scientist, man.

All you ever have to know about the GOP.....


Vote accordingly.

4 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:09:50pm

re: #2 Obdicut

Again, look at what he really said there: he's promoting the teaching of creationism.

5 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:11:07pm

Nothing against teaching Creationism. In Sunday schools.

I have everything against a failure or refusal to teach Evolution in public schools.

6 erik_t  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:12:41pm

What I'm pretty sure your faith does teach is inconsistent, Marco, is lying. And that's what you're doing. You're lying. I don't know which of your two statements was the lie, but you're telling both sides what they want to hear for personal gain.

So, y'know, work on that.

Pandering piece of shit.

7 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:12:43pm

"I was referring to a theological debate and which is a pretty healthy debate."

No, its not.

8 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:12:55pm

re: #2 Obdicut

What he said:

We can answer if the earth was created in seven days. The answer is no, because that makes no fucking sense on any level.

That "logic" is as old as the Scopes Trial.

9 darthstar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:13:49pm

The good news is that Rubio is the future of the GOP.

10 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:14:31pm

By the way, in the same interview where he supposedly walked back his age of the Earth bit, he also gives us this little gem:

Rubio: ‘Faith Teaches’ Homosexuality Is A Sin

11 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:14:45pm

The theological debate is pretty much this: the Catholic Church and many "progressive" Christians see no conflict between Evolution and Genesis, they understand that science is about how we came about and the Bible is about why.

Fundamentalists and Biblical literalists see a conflict between Evolution and Creation and are willing to reject science, math and logic in order to make their case against the former.

12 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:16:01pm

Teaching creationism is fine, as long as you properly explain that man was the waste material of projects conducted by the Elder Things during their wars against the Great Race of Yith and the Star Spawn of Cthulhu back in the ancient eras of the Earth.

13 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:16:39pm

re: #12 Kragar

Teaching creationism is fine, as long as you properly explain that man was the waste material of projects conducted by the Elder Things during their wars against the Great Race of Yith and the Star Spawn of Cthulhu back in the ancient eras of the Earth.

Where does Xenu work into all of this?

//

14 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:17:21pm

Rubio follows in the footsteps of great Republicans before him by being the next great GOP leader until he opens his mouth and reveals himself to be a complete pandering moron.

15 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:18:08pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

Where does Xenu work into all of this?

//

Sorry, but you have to pay the dues before I can tell you that.

16 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:20:03pm

re: #11 Sol Berdinowitz

The theological debate is pretty much this: the Catholic Church and many "progressive" Christians see no conflict between Evolution and Genesis, they understand that science is about how we came about and the Bible is about why.

Fundamentalists and Biblical literalists see a conflict between Evolution and Creation and are willing to reject science, math and logic in order to make their case against the former.

the way some progressive christians put it is like this:

if you accept the scientific position on evolution, god is a subtle architect who designed an elegant mechanism that operates with unfathomable intricacy; if you take genesis literally, god is a sideshow magician who goes abracadabra, poof! and there it is

17 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:21:41pm

These young earth creationists are such chicken-shits.

A creationist position that the earth and universe was created by an omnipotent deity 6000 years ago does not conflict with observation, if it is assumed that the deity was malicious enough to make everything look old.

However, even in the dim recesses of what passes for the creationist mind, there is a realization that the methods of science and engineering, based on rational evaluation of natural evidence, have been tremendously successful at generating useful knowledge. No other method of inquiry comes remotely close.

Thus, creationists obsessively cloak their religious beliefs in the language of science (although pseudo-science is the best they can do).

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:22:22pm

re: #16 engineer cat

the way some progressive christians put it is like this:

if you accept the scientific position on evolution, god is a subtle architect who designed an elegant mechanism that operates with unfathomable intricacy; if you take genesis literally, god is a sideshow magician who goes abracadabra, poof! and there it is

Retired Anglican Bishop Shelby Spong (author of "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism") basically says that if you take the Bible literally, you are not only missing the point, but you are making the religion look ludicrous.

19 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:23:25pm

re: #17 EPR-radar

These young earth creationists are such chicken-shits.

A creationist position that the earth and universe was created by an omnipotent deity 6000 years ago does not conflict with observation, if it is assumed that the deity was malicious enough to make everything look old.

However, even in the dim recesses of what passes for the creationist mind, there is a realization that the methods of science and engineering, based on rational evaluation of natural evidence, have been tremendously successful at generating useful knowledge. No other method of inquiry comes remotely close.

Thus, creationists obsessively cloak their religious beliefs in the language of science (although pseudo-science is the best they can do).

I've always said that Intelligent Design, which is the last refuge of creationists who have failed at arguing that it is "as valid" as evolution, is just creationism in a lab coat. Of course, the crafty fuckers have kicked the legs out from under me by just arguing that science now needs to "prove" evolution.

20 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:23:38pm

re: #17 EPR-radar

Thus, creationists obsessively cloak their religious beliefs in the language of science (although pseudo-science is the best they can do).

Remember when Rick Perry compared modern-day Creationists with Gallileo because they were taking on the (scientific) Establishment?

21 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:24:00pm

re: #17 EPR-radar

These young earth creationists are such chicken-shits.

A creationist position that the earth and universe was created by an omnipotent deity 6000 years ago does not conflict with observation, if it is assumed that the deity was malicious enough to make everything look old.

However, even in the dim recesses of what passes for the creationist mind, there is a realization that the methods of science and engineering, based on rational evaluation of natural evidence, have been tremendously successful at generating useful knowledge. No other method of inquiry comes remotely close.

Thus, creationists obsessively cloak their religious beliefs in the language of science (although pseudo-science is the best they can do).

Using creationist logic, God could have created the Earth in the last 10 minutes and used his powers to just make everyone think its older

22 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:24:43pm

re: #11 Sol Berdinowitz

The theological debate is pretty much this: the Catholic Church and many "progressive" Christians see no conflict between Evolution and Genesis, they understand that science is about how we came about and the Bible is about why.

Fundamentalists and Biblical literalists see a conflict between Evolution and Creation and are willing to reject science, math and logic in order to make their case against the former.

Great post! All I can say is those dang Nuns beat the science stuff in our heads. Fricking learning the Gas laws in 6th grade sucked.

23 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:25:09pm

re: #21 Kragar

Using creationist logic, God could have created the Earth in the last 10 minutes and used his powers to just make everyone think its older

No. For starters, Creationism is not based on logic, it is based on the Revealed Truth of the Bible.

Thus it is not subject to revision or discussion.

24 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:26:08pm

re: #21 Kragar

Using creationist logic, God could have created the Earth in the last 10 minutes and used his powers to just make everyone think its older

But creation 10 minutes ago creates the unpleasant theological problem (for Christian creationists) that Christ would be made into an imaginary entity. Big no-no.

25 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:26:32pm

you realize, of course, because we are all too honest to be hustlers, we are missing our chance to make a million bucks publishing our own version of World Wingnut News

26 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:27:30pm

re: #24 EPR-radar

But creation 10 minutes ago creates the unpleasant theological problem (for Christian creationists) that Christ would be made into an imaginary entity. Big no-no.

Got some bad news for the Christian Creationists...

27 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:29:43pm

re: #22 A Man for all Seasons

Great post! All I can say is those dang Nuns beat the science stuff in our heads. Fricking learning the Gas laws in 6th grade sucked.

I didn't have to live through it, so it sounds inspirational to me.

One of the few things the RC church gets right is its view on science. Of course, there's a long history there of great embarrassment to the Church, which helped them come to a reasonable position.

28 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:29:43pm

re: #25 engineer cat

you realize, of course, because we are all too honest to be hustlers, we are missing our chance to make a million bucks publishing our own version of World Wingnut News

One of the articles at WND now:

Yes, ancient man lived with the dinosaurs!

29 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:31:12pm

re: #21 Kragar

Using creationist logic, God could have created the Earth in the last 10 minutes and used his powers to just make everyone think its older

some medieval christians - see langland's 14th century work 'piers plowman' - took the rather hindu or buddhist position that the material world is merely an illusion that god creates to test our souls

even in the 18th century bishop berkeley, who the people's republic of berkeley was named after, took a similar position. in a famous conversation with samuel johnson of dictionary fame, johnson replied by kicking a rock and saying "i refute it thus!"

30 Gus  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:32:54pm

re: #28 Kragar

One of the articles at WND now:

Yes, ancient man lived with the dinosaurs!

...

FREE Devotional Reveals the Truth about Dinosaurs and Exposes Evolution as the Greatest Hoax of All Time

Evolutionists teach that dinosaurs died out long before humans evolved from apes. But is this true? Or is their view of dinosaurs part of a colossal hoax that's being taught as fact to your children and grandkids? Creation Moments – one of the first ministries in the U.S. to defend biblical creation – believes you deserve to know the truth, and that's why we want you to enjoy our FREE "Today's Creation Moment" devotional.

Each weekday you'll learn incredible things about God's magnificent creation. For instance, here's a recent "Today's Creation Moment" presenting evidence that man and dinosaurs really did live at the same time...

31 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:34:31pm

re: #30 Gus

...

*vomits*

32 erik_t  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:34:40pm

re: #30 Gus

Tricky Yahweh snatched up all the people-being-eaten-by-dinosaur fossils. You know, to test us.

33 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:36:45pm

re: #32 erik_t

Tricky Yahweh snatched up all the people-being-eaten-by-dinosaur fossils. You know, to test us.

The scene in Jurassic Park would have been even funnier if T-Rex had eaten a creationist rather than a lawyer.

34 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:38:33pm

re: #27 EPR-radar

I didn't have to live through it, so it sounds inspirational to me.

One of the few things the RC church gets right is its view on science. Of course, there's a long history there of great embarrassment to the Church, which helped them come to a reasonable position.

Yup..I didn't like it at the time but I learned science, math, English, history and religion ( 1 hour a day ) Good old RC church beat it our heads or else..
( I had a love/hate relationships with some nuns )

35 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:38:46pm

re: #32 erik_t

Tricky Yahweh snatched up all the people-being-eaten-by-dinosaur fossils. You know, to test us.

As I recall, fossils of critters eating other critters are incredibly rare in general --- something about dying in such a way as to leave a fossil tends to interfere with proper enjoyment of meals.

The more compelling point is the absence of human bones (or artifacts) in any rock formations that include dinosaur fossils.

36 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:39:36pm

re: #33 Shiplord Kirel

The scene in Jurassic Park would have been even funnier if T-Rex had eaten a creationist rather than a lawyer.

The next dinosaurs-running-amok movie should include something like that, possibly a swarm of velociraptors tearing into a megachurch congregation.

37 erik_t  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:42:00pm

re: #35 EPR-radar

As I recall, fossils of critters eating other critters are incredibly rare in general --- something about dying in such a way as to leave a fossil tends to interfere with proper enjoyment of meals.

The more compelling point is the absence of human bones (or artifacts) in any rock formations that include dinosaur fossils.

I was thinking teeth marks, bone gouges, stuff like that. Stuff you'd expect to see on an animal predated upon by, say, some of the larger raptors.

38 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:47:22pm

re: #30 Gus

...

um, "evidence"??

39 dragonath  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:47:29pm
40 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:51:45pm

re: #39 dragonath

Image: tumblr_lr7i8dzqZF1qkbcz7o1_500.jpg

"Happiness is submission to God"? As in voluntary submission to God? As in Islam?

41 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:52:36pm

re: #39 dragonath

Image: tumblr_lr7i8dzqZF1qkbcz7o1_500.jpg

"happiness is submission to god"

the word 'islam' means submission, as in to allah, god

therefore this here church is seekrit muslins

42 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:53:25pm

re: #37 erik_t

I see, the fossil wouldn't need to be caught in the act.

43 danarchy  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:55:07pm

re: #21 Kragar

Using creationist logic, God could have created the Earth in the last 10 minutes and used his powers to just make everyone think its older

Well there is the theory that our the universe is just a computer simulation. In that case if you paused the simulation, moved it to new hardware and restarted it, then in essence that would be exactly the case ;)

44 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:56:22pm

re: #43 danarchy

Well there is the theory that our the universe is just a computer simulation. In that case if you paused the simulation, moved it to new hardware and restarted it, then in essence that would be exactly the case ;)

Somebody been watching The Thirteenth Floor again?

45 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:56:29pm

re: #20 Sol Berdinowitz

Remember when Rick Perry compared modern-day Creationists with Gallileo because they were taking on the (scientific) Establishment?

Excellent example of a whack-job trying to appropriate the credibility of science by osmosis.

They might as well start rubbing a copy of "Two New Sciences" as if it were a lucky rabbit's foot.

46 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:58:09pm

re: #45 EPR-radar

They might as well start rubbing a copy of "Two New Sciences" as if it were a lucky rabbit's foot.

If you eat rabbit, and nothing but rabbit, you will die pretty quickly because it lacks fat and many vitamins and minerals. So, eating it actually causes you to burn through necessary vitamins, and you die quicker than you would from starvation.

However, right before you die, your feet become lucky.

47 simoom  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 2:58:09pm
48 danarchy  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:00:18pm

re: #44 Targetpractice

Somebody been watching The Thirteenth Floor again?

Actually never seen the thirteenth floor. But I dig all of those shows like The Universe and Morgan Freeman's through the wormhole and those Brian Green shows on PBS, and I think they've all had episodes on that with honest to goodness physicists and mathematicians arguing that it isn't just likely, but probable. I don't buy it myself, but given advanced enough computing power, it certainly should be possible.

49 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:00:48pm

re: #47 simoom

It's good to remember how far we've come. Even as it still burns me up that people oppose it. We've come a long way, and a lot of people have worked very hard and taken great personal risk to get us there.

50 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:01:48pm

re: #40 Targetpractice

"Happiness is submission to God"? As in voluntary submission to God? As in Islam?

And here I thought I was happy because I was eating Coffee Heath Bar Crunch Ben & Jerry's right now. Or, because I have a decent job and some very clever cats for pets and a good car and a girlfriend who likes me... Or just about anything, really.

But I guess it's just because I'm a slave to a figment of some priest's diseased imagination? Who knew?

51 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:02:58pm

re: #41 engineer cat

"happiness is submission to god"

the word 'islam' means submission, as in to allah, god

therefore this here church is seekrit muslins

Seekrit muslin is way more dangerous than seekrit nylon.

52 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:03:24pm

re: #47 simoom

[Embedded content]

Nearly doubled in 16 years. That's pretty amazing.

53 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:10:16pm

More 'Helpful Advice' for Anti-Gay Groups

After four defeats on the issue of marriage equality at the ballot box and a failed attempt to remove an Iowa justice who favors same-sex marriage, right-wing activists are starting to panic and offering their advice to the GOP and groups like the National Organization for Marriage and Focus on the Family: you’re not anti-gay enough. Yesterday, Matthew Cullinan Hoffman of LifeSiteNews similarly argued that organizations that oppose same-sex marriage need to get nastier.

According to Hoffman, who is also a correspondent for the National Catholic Register, “the very fact that” gay marriage is even up for debate “is an indication of a level of moral confusion and decadence that borders on the apocalyptic.”

He went on to maintain that same-sex unions are a “narcissistic parody” of opposite-sex relationships as “homosexual relationships do not represent an authentic intimacy, but rather involve mutual exploitation for the sake of satisfying an unnatural lust” and lead to suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, violence along with other “destructive consequences.” “Homosexuals themselves, who are the greatest victims of the ‘gay lifestyle,’ and are in desperate need of the truth,” he writes.

“Until and unless pro-family activists adopt a comprehensive and coherent answer to the ideology of the culture of death,” Hoffman concludes, “we will continue to suffer defeat after defeat, until the institution of marriage is completely destroyed.”

54 erik_t  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:11:07pm

re: #53 Kragar

More 'Helpful Advice' for Anti-Gay Groups

Wingnut tears are so yummy and sweet.

55 Jack Burton  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:11:54pm

re: #28 Kragar

One of the articles at WND now:

Yes, ancient man lived with the dinosaurs!

There's a documentary about this.

56 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:13:37pm

re: #48 danarchy

Actually never seen the thirteenth floor. But I dig all of those shows like The Universe and Morgan Freeman's through the wormhole and those Brian Green shows on PBS, and I think they've all had episodes on that with honest to goodness physicists and mathematicians arguing that it isn't just likely, but probable. I don't buy it myself, but given advanced enough computing power, it certainly should be possible.

It's worth a watch, if only for the overall mindfucks. I think the plot could use a bit of work, but it's pretty good overall.

57 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:16:40pm

re: #53 Kragar

More 'Helpful Advice' for Anti-Gay Groups

By now, I regard any RW political activist organization with "family" in its name as a hate group.

The American Family Association and the Family Research Council have made the SPLC hate group list. Apparently, Focus on the Family is not yet listed by the SPLC.

I suppose congratulations are in order. //

58 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:19:38pm

re: #57 EPR-radar

By now, I regard any RW political activist organization with "family" in its name as a hate group.

The American Family Association and the Family Research Council have made the SPLC hate group list. Apparently, Focus on the Family is not yet listed by the SPLC.

I suppose congratulations are in order. //

Just my theory, but maybe if homosexuals didn't have so many of these kinds of groups calling them deviants and demons doomed to burn in hell, they wouldn't have nearly so many issues in regards to substance abuse, mental health issues and other problems that the "Family Hate" groups seem to like bringing up all the time.

59 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:21:50pm

1. For the time being: If a President will reinvigorate the economy, stabilize the budget, and advance the national interest with a coherent foreign policy, I don't care if he sacrifices oxen to Zeus on the White House lawn. I do not care if she is a Republican or Democrat.

2. Afaic creationism does not belong in government-funded schools...of course. I was not at all happy to learn that Reagan was a creationist, but I voted for him anyway. Per Thomas Sowell, "There are no solutions; there are only trade-offs."

3. At present, my biggest concern about Rubio is his possible militarism.

4. I am strongly disinclined to support anyone for national office unless they have been reelected to state office with a greater margin than they were elected by. The Republicans would have spared themselves Romney and Palin had they enforced that standard. Rubio will not meet it in 2016.

60 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:23:06pm

re: #59 jvic

1. For the time being: If a President will reinvigorate the economy, stabilize the budget, and advance the national interest with a coherent foreign policy, I don't care if he sacrifices oxen to Zeus on the White House lawn. I do not care if she is a Republican or Democrat.

There's a lot more to life than economy and foreign policy. Like civil rights.

61 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:28:08pm

re: #58 Kragar

Just my theory, but maybe if homosexuals didn't have so many of these kinds of groups calling them deviants and demons doomed to burn in hell, they wouldn't have nearly so many issues in regards to substance abuse, mental health issues and other problems that the "Family Hate" groups seem to like bringing up all the time.

It has been a while since I've looked into this, but I would be very skeptical about any of these "facts" that are asserted by RW hate groups. In some of the marriage cases, pro-equality advocates have been able to show in court no adverse impact on adopted children that have same sex parents.

This is difficult to reconcile with the rampant drugs and insanity story line of the RW haters.

62 Kragar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:30:36pm

re: #61 EPR-radar

It has been a while since I've looked into this, but I would be very skeptical about any of these "facts" that are asserted by RW hate groups. In some of the marriage cases, pro-equality advocates have been able to show in court no adverse impact on adopted children that have same sex parents.

This is difficult to reconcile with the rampant drugs and insanity story line of the RW haters.

I take all their claims with a grain of salt, but I can imagine abused the way they treat homosexuals as having problems.

63 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:31:54pm

re: #60 Obdicut

There's a lot more to life than economy and foreign policy. Like civil rights.

It is much easier to constructively address inequities in a heterogeneous society when the economy is growing than when it is stagnant or declining.

64 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:35:01pm

re: #63 jvic

It is much easier to constructively address inequities in a heterogeneous society when the economy is growing than when it is stagnant or declining.

Really? I haven't seen much proof of that. Can you explain what makes you think that?

65 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:35:18pm

re: #63 jvic

It is much easier to constructively address inequities in a heterogeneous society when the economy is growing than when it is stagnant or declining.

If someone is so infected by magical thinking as to believe in young earth creationism, what reason is there to believe such a person is capable of observing what is happening in the economy and coming up with rational policies in response?

66 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:39:16pm

For example, 'the gilded age' actually saw some of the biggest steps backwards in civil rights, and yet it was the largest economic expansion in US history.

67 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:41:35pm

re: #58 Kragar

Just my theory, but maybe if homosexuals didn't have so many of these kinds of groups calling them deviants and demons doomed to burn in hell, they wouldn't have nearly so many issues in regards to substance abuse, mental health issues and other problems that the "Family Hate" groups seem to like bringing up all the time.

IMHO, if homosexuals didn't have so many of these kinds of hate groups after then, no one would take notice of them as a group at all.

They'd simply be friends, family members, co-workers and neighbors-just like they are now. Human Beings--nothing more, nothing less.

68 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:42:07pm

re: #66 Obdicut

For example, 'the gilded age' actually saw some of the biggest steps backwards in civil rights, and yet it was the largest economic expansion in US history.

Naturally. If you are going to make wage slaves out of the population, the first thing to do is stoke various resentments among the soon to be wage slaves, in order to provide a distraction.

69 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:43:19pm

re: #43 danarchy

Well there is the theory that our the universe is just a computer simulation. In that case if you paused the simulation, moved it to new hardware and restarted it, then in essence that would be exactly the case ;)

Yes, and the mice are running the simulation. The purpose is to answer the greatest ultimate question of the universe.

70 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:47:05pm

re: #68 EPR-radar

Naturally. If you are going to make wage slaves out of the population, the first thing to do is stoke various resentments among the soon to be wage-slaves, in order to provide a distraction.

I think a lot of the South's racist shit pulled against black people in that time period was completely honest racism, without ulterior motive of class division. On the other hand, you could say that the position of blacks in society was politically useful to the powers that be in the South for a long time, even under slavery, because it meant that the poor whites always had someone to look down on.

71 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:48:36pm

re: #68 EPR-radar

Naturally. If you are going to make wage slaves out of the population, the first thing to do is stoke various resentments among the soon to be wage-slaves, in order to provide a distraction.

If you aren't going to approve of the idea of individuals controlling their reproduction, you will have lot of people who need to be put to work. People who will be willing to latch onto any reason to increase their chances of getting a job over the competition.

IIRC, the greater the volume and type of the product, the lower the price.

Nice way to keep wages low--not share so much with the workers--huh?

72 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:49:21pm

re: #70 Obdicut

I think a lot of the South's racist shit pulled against black people in that time period was completely honest racism, without ulterior motive of class division. On the other hand, you could say that the position of blacks in society was politically useful to the powers that be in the South for a long time, even under slavery, because it meant that the poor whites always had someone to look down on.

That insidious need to thing oneself better than another human being.

some animals are more equal than others

73 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 3:56:52pm

re: #70 Obdicut

I think a lot of the South's racist shit pulled against black people in that time period was completely honest racism, without ulterior motive of class division. On the other hand, you could say that the position of blacks in society was politically useful to the powers that be in the South for a long time, even under slavery, because it meant that the poor whites always had someone to look down on.

I agree. Basically, both are true. The powers that be will use whatever lies at hand. If racism will work, it will be employed (e.g., Southern strategy, later on), whether or not the powers that be are actually racist.

74 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 4:06:12pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Really? I haven't seen much proof of that. Can you explain what makes you think that?

Having read that revolutions tend to start when conditions are improving, I grant that my assertion is not clearcut. Otoh, I also read that the Chinese leadership is trying hard to keep the economy growing in order to prevent popular unrest. I persist in the attitude that, all else being equal, a growing pie should be easier to redivide than a shrinking one.

As for the Gilded Age: Yes, Reconstruction was shameful. At the same time, the country was attracting waves of immigrants.

75 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:21:54pm

re: #74 jvic

I agree that a burgeoning economy can be used to distract people from their lack of rights. That actually works a bit contrary to what you first asserted, though, your example with China.

Your assertion doesn't appear to have any merit or support for it at all. I don't see any linking between civil rights and economic growth. It sounds like something that's more reassuring to tell ones self than having any bearing in reality.

76 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:22:35pm

How old is Mars?

What is the expiration date on those pickles in that jar over there?

How many human years in a cat year?

If a politician gets a time out in the corner, does that make a tree fall in the forest?

Is the Pope a bear?

Did we evolve from bears?

Feemeeneur!

77 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:23:35pm

re: #76 Ojoe

Can you explain your cryptic post at all?

78 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:24:01pm

re: #74 jvic

Revolution: N. An abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.

— Ambrose Bierce.

79 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:24:41pm

re: #77 Obdicut

Yes. I'm sick of politicians, and the post is to mock them.

80 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:27:48pm

re: #79 Ojoe

Yes. I'm sick of politicians, and the post is to mock them.

That's nice. "They're all bad" is always such a wise and profound thing to hear. Don't let anyone tell you it's just fatuous simplicity.

81 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:31:16pm

re: #80 Obdicut

Judging by results, on the national level, they are functionally all bad.

82 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:32:31pm

re: #81 Ojoe

You're bad.

83 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 5:40:54pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Michael Jackson is "bad." You know it.

84 Egregious Philbin  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 6:16:23pm

It is cute when the wingnuts attempt to appear all science like...

85 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 6:46:18pm

re: #75 Obdicut

The kind of worker who can sustain a competitive modern prosperous economy is likely to require, either overtly or de facto, a degree of political rights.

86 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 7:02:16pm

re: #85 jvic

The kind of worker who can sustain a competitive modern prosperous economy is likely to require, either overtly or de facto, a degree of political rights.

That's nice. However, as the Gilded Age showed us, and our current cycle is repeating, a society can have great prosperity without it being equitably distributed, thus leaving out wide sections of society from empowerment and enfranchisement.

All you're really doing is saying "A rising tide lifts all boats, even civil rights, rising tides are great things", and I'm saying "A rising tide doesn't even raise all boats". When that tide is a prospering economy.

If what you mean is a president who can help raise worker's wages and reduce the obscene disparity in pay between CEOs and workers in this country, someone who can enact taxation and government spending to correct the economically disastrous stratification of wealth that we're seeing, then sure, I agree-- yet somehow I doubt you meant that.

87 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 7:16:51pm

re: #81 Ojoe

Judging by results, on the national level, they are functionally all bad.

Results for whom, by whose criteria?

I suspect the political class has done pretty well for itself: the higher the rank, the more so. The analogy that popped into my mind is the CEO who misleads investors and shafts his workforce, and pays himself a fat bonus for doing so.

88 Mich-again  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 7:24:09pm

I think perhaps someone who is Catholic as Rubio claims to be may have pointed out to him that creationism is completely inconsistent with centuries of Catholic teaching. Rubio's initial remarks pointed out that he has no f-ing idea what his own faith has to say on the subject. Any Catholic who was listening at all in Catechism should know this. The ones who try to say something different are essentially heretics.

89 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 8:17:37pm

re: #86 Obdicut

That's nice. However, as the Gilded Age showed us, and our current cycle is repeating, a society can have great prosperity without it being equitably distributed, thus leaving out wide sections of society from empowerment and enfranchisement.

I had the Gilded Age in mind. The industrialists of the time may have wanted a workforce of disenfranchised serfs; what they got is a trade union movement among (great-)grandparents of Reagan Democrats.

All you're really doing is saying "A rising tide lifts all boats, even civil rights, rising tides are great things", and I'm saying "A rising tide doesn't even raise all boats". When that tide is a prospering economy.

No, I had explicitly decided not to mention Jack Kennedy's expression. In fact, a rising tide does not lift boats with holes.

If what you mean is a president who can help raise worker's wages and reduce the obscene disparity in pay between CEOs and workers in this country, someone who can enact taxation and government spending to correct the economically disastrous stratification of wealth that we're seeing, then sure, I agree-- yet somehow I doubt you meant that.

The President does not enact taxation and spending; Congress does, with emphasis on the House.

I view the taxation "debate" as a false dichotomy in which both parties collude. I would take it more seriously if it were accompanied by discussion of policies which abet concentration of wealth. Two examples that immediately come to mind are too-big-to-fail financial institutions and excessive protections for intellectual "property". There is corporate welfare in general, of course.

90 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 8:23:51pm

re: #89 jvic

I had the Gilded Age in mind. The industrialists of the time may have wanted a workforce of disenfranchised serfs; what they got is a trade union movement among (great-)grandparents of Reagan Democrats.

And they got that because of progressive organization and dissatisfaction with working conditions, not because of a rising economy. And those movements did not achieve great success until the Great Deal era.

The President does not enact taxation and spending; Congress does, with emphasis on the House.

Then goddamn chastise yourself for your original comment

If a President will reinvigorate the economy, stabilize the budget, and advance the national interest with a coherent foreign policy,

Since the president obviously can't do that alone, and he can't do anything with the budget.

I view the taxation "debate" as a false dichotomy in which both parties collude.

Whatever. The GOP is completely fucking off the rails in Ayn Rand economic territory, but you're deciding to futz around with "They both collude".

I would take it more seriously if it were accompanied by discussion of policies which abet concentration of wealth. Two examples that immediately come to mind are too-big-to-fail financial institutions and excessive protections for intellectual "property". There is corporate welfare in general, of course.

And I guess this is you ignoring that the Democrats have pushed for more regulations, they objected to the breaking down of the walls that helped lead to the financial meltdown, and that the GOP has been blocking appointments to many positions that investigate and regulate financial institutions.

I agree our patent and IP systems need a workover but that's hardly 'collusion' it's just accretion of error.

Anyway: Blathering about both sides colluding is fatuous in the current day, when the GOP is pulling shit like blocking the debt ceiling to extort spending cuts in a recession.

91 jvic  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 9:43:54pm
And they got that because of progressive organization and dissatisfaction with working conditions, not because of a rising economy. And those movements did not achieve great success until the Great Deal era.

Jobs with those unsatisfactory working were created because of a rising economy.

Then goddamn chastise yourself for your original comment...Since the president obviously can't do that alone, and he can't do anything with the budget.

Fair enough; consider me mildly self-chastised. Nevertheless, the president has the tools of the veto and, perhaps, sequestration.

I view the taxation "debate" as a false dichotomy in which both parties collude.

Whatever. The GOP is completely fucking off the rails in Ayn Rand economic territory, but you're deciding to futz around with "They both collude".

I thought it was clear that "collusion" referred to setting the terms of the public debate; if not, please consider this a clarification..

I haven't read Ayn Rand, but I suspect she didn't advocate corporate welfare like the GOP practices.

And I guess this is you ignoring that the Democrats have pushed for more regulations, they objected to the breaking down of the walls that helped lead to the financial meltdown, and that the GOP has been blocking appointments to many positions that investigate and regulate financial institutions.

Seeing merit in the proposition that big businesses are better capable of handling regulatory burdens than small businesses are, I'd much rather see a push for more antitrust. As far as breaking down walls goes, weakening Glass-Steagall was a bipartisan effort; Robert Rubin was prominently involved, and Bill Clinton signed the legislation.

Anyway: Blathering about both sides colluding is fatuous in the current day, when the GOP is pulling shit like blocking the debt ceiling to extort spending cuts in a recession.

Apart from your inflammatory language, your remark about spending cuts in a recession is a reasonable point about which reasonable people can disagree. In no way do I exculpate Bush for his role in bringing us to the current mess.

Good night.

92 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 5, 2012 9:59:56pm

re: #91 jvic

Apart from your inflammatory language, your remark about spending cuts in a recession is a reasonable point about which reasonable people can disagree.

No, it's not. It's absolutely fucking common-sense rock-bottom stupid to cut spending in a recession.

And everyone used to acknowledge that, after Reagan's stupid economic theories were rightly ridiculed as Voodoo economics.

93 jvic  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:54:55pm

re: #92 Obdicut

No, it's not. It's absolutely fucking common-sense rock-bottom stupid to cut spending in a recession.

Taxation and spending are essential, linked parts of the budget. Whether they disagree with my political orientation or purport to support it, I don't regard as serious those positions which exclude one or the other.


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 Frank says:

A lot of things wrong with society today are directly attributable to the fact that the people who make the laws are sexually maladjusted. -- from "I Seem To Be a Verb" by R. Buckminster Fuller, 1970.