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The Marc Morano Fudge Factor: Links to Steve Goddard Nonsense

A nod is as good as a wink.
Science • Views: 28,158

Corrected Dec 8.12 - see below…

Marc Morano, a infamous AGW denialist, debated Bill Nye the Science Guy on CNN recently. During the debate Morano peppered the air with a vituperative Gish Gallup aimed at Bill who was standing in for the climate science community.

Morano threw too many talking points for Bill to field effectively and as is common when a scientist goes up against a professional PR hack, he looked outclassed and flustered. I suspect Bill simply wasn’t prepared for the volume and blatant dishonesty.

It would take a rather lengthy paper to dismantle every point Morano made, so I decided to take a look at a couple of related arguments. One of Morano’s arguments revolves around the evidence for increased severe weather and the use of hurricane Sandy as an example of the effects of AGW on the Atlantic storm season.

In a well rehearsed and technically correct cherry picked comment, Morano links to a Steve Goddard article where Goddard mentioned the 1935 Labor Day hurricane as the strongest storm to ever hit land in the US. The implication is that for AGW’s affect on severe weather to be true, past storms can not be as strong as current storms. A ridiculously illogical statement, but that’s the intended message.

Most Powerful Atlantic Hurricanes to hit the US (Figure 1)

As you can see by Figure 1, the Labor Day hurricane is indeed the most powerful to have hit the coast, based not on damage done but on atmospheric pressure.

What Morano Goddard fails to mention is that in any given year there is an energy reserve that is split between the number of yearly storms. That means there could be a small number of severe storms as in 1883 when there were 4 storms, a cat 1, two cat 3s and a cat 4, or a large number of small storms as in 1901 when there were 13 storms, four cat 1s, one cat 2 and the rest never reaching hurricane status, or a combination.

Atlantic Energy Store Model (Figure 2)
Energy Store Model 2 (Figure 3)

The two graphs shown above are weighted to give a rough indication of the Atlantic energy reserve. They are back of the envelope models. The first graph, Figure 2 has non-hurricane storms (tropical storms and tropical depressions) weighted at 1, so the number of those storms are added together. Hurricanes are weighted according to strength, category 1 are given a weight of 2, category 2 are given a weight of 3 and so on. Weighting values are completely arbitrary because we aren’t interested in absolute energy values, just in whether the energy reserves are trending or flat. To show that the values chosen don’t skew the results appreciably, the second graph uses smaller weightings. Category 1 weight is 1.1, category 2 is 1.2, category 3 is 1.3 and so on.

It’s obvious from both Figure2 and Figure3 that the energy store in the Atlantic is trending upward.

Raw Atlantic Storm Numbers

One consequence of an increased store of energy is that the number of storms will go up as shown in the above graph.

Most Powerful Atlantic Hurricane. (Figure 4)

A second consequence of increased available energy is the severity goes up. This doesn’t mean that every year will necessarily have more severe storms than the previous year, or that any given storm will break previous severity records. What it means is the probability of a severe storm will trend upwards. For example a one in a century storm could become a one in a half, or quarter century storm.

The table (Figure4) posted above shows that is happening. Contrary to what Morano Goddard intends the listener to infer, all storms are important, not just those landing on the US coast. Of the top 11 Atlantic storms, 6 of them have occurred since 1997. Only 3 predate the time AGW has become obvious.

What can be learned from this is that because we observe the number of storms increasing, the probability of severe storms going up, as well as an increasing Atlantic ocean energy content, less energy is re-radiating out to space.

___________________________________________________________
Update:

After reading Morano’s post about this article, I listened to the debate again to find where he commented on the 1935 hurricane. His comments at his site are correct, he did not mention that hurricane in the debate. The comment was from Steve Goddard on the ‘Real-Science’ blog.

The most active period for major hurricanes in the US was 1931-1960. The frequency of major hurricanes is now about half what it was 60 years ago. The most intense hurricane to ever hit the US occurred in 1935.

Morano’s blog, climatedepot.com has a page labelled “AZ-Climate-Reality-Check” which is anything but a reality check, but contains a link to a page referencing the Goddard page.

Morano Makes a Claim About Atlantic Hurricanes.

My apologies to Marc Morano for claiming he said something in a debate he didn’t say, although he obviously agrees with it given the links on his site.

My apologies to Charles Johnson for publishing a page with bad information. I was obviously confused by the support given to Goddard by Morano on climatedepot.com.

All errors in this page are mine, and mine alone.

Jump to bottom

186 comments

1 freetoken  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:47:28pm
This doesn’t mean that every year will necessarily have more severe storms than the previous year, or that any given storm will break previous severity records. What it means is the probability of a severe storm will trend upwards.

"Probability" is math.

And Math iz hard.

I commend you for picking apart the spaghetti of stupid that is often served up by Chef Morano, yet I hope we all realize that the battle here, as manifesting itself in our society, is not so much over science as it is over power, the pecking order within our super-tribe of primates, on who is the alpha male (and females) and each of our individual relationship to the heads of our society.

Morano is playing to "win". Truth has little value to him.

2 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 4:51:28pm

Excellent post b_sharp, thank you.

3 freetoken  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 6:00:24pm
All errors in this page are mine, and mine alone.

In the real world of the real physical earth-system, your "error" is not even noticed, but the erroneous and deceitful propaganda pushed by Morano et. al. is manifested by falsely comforting the current human participants in the system of fossil carbon consumption and thus allowing ever larger changes to the Earth surface.

4 jaunte  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 6:46:27pm

Senator James Inhofe Protests Climate Talks With Activist Who Believes The UN Is The Anti-Christ

Inhofe’s first guest, Cathie Adams, is the President of the Texas Eagle Forum and former Texas GOP chair. She must have felt quite uncomfortable speaking at a United Nations function, as she has maintained for over a decade that the UN was the anti-Christ’s vehicle for stealthily taking over the world. From a 1999 newsletter:

"The Bible tells us that in the end times there will be a world government headed by a world leader, called the anti-Christ, who will profess a world religion, but did you ever think you would live in the day when these things would come into being?
That is exactly what the United Nations is doing behind the backs of most Americans."

Adams has singled out environmentalism as part of the UN’s sinister agenda, suggesting a fictional UN Pledge of Allegiance would require “worship[ping] the Earth.” She also believes, among other things, that the CO2 emissions do not cause climate change and that vaccination is a plot to steal American freedom.

5 slimething  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 9:31:34pm

What you fail to mention is the ability to detect North Atlantic storms greatly increased from the middle of the 20th century onward, and since the satellite era even more so. If a hurricane is alone in the middle of the Atlantic, and no satellite is there to record it, will the wind still blow?
[Link: www.agu.org...]

You also failed to mention there hasn't been a major landfall hurricane in the U.S. since 2005; an "unprecedented" observation.

You also failed to mention the "Recent historically low global tropical cyclone activity"
[Link: www.agu.org...]

I read Steve Goddard's blog post. There is nothing untrue in his statement. It appears you are in CYA mode and obfuscating the topic on hurricanes as it is clear your knowledge of them is quite limited in scope.

Further, as is noted at [Link: www.nhc.noaa.gov...]

"No wind measurements are available from the core of this small, but vicious hurricane. A pressure of 26.35 inches measured at Long Key, Florida makes this the most intense hurricane of record to hit the United States and the third most intense hurricane of record in the Atlantic basin (surpassed only by the 26.05 inches in Hurricane Wilma in 2005 and 26.22 inches observed in Hurricane Gilbert in 1988)."

Steve Goddard said:
"The most active period for major hurricanes in the US was 1931-1960. The frequency of major hurricanes is now about half what it was 60 years ago. The most intense hurricane to ever hit the US occurred in 1935."

For a complete perspective on tropical storms and hurricanes:
[Link: policlimate.com...]

6 freetoken  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 11:06:50pm

re: #5 slimething

Oh, this should be fun. We'll see how far you are willing to go in covering up the long history of Goddard's obfuscations and Morano's deceptions over the years.

7 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:34:07am
In a well rehearsed and technically correct cherry picked comment, Morano links to a Steve Goddard article where Goddard mentioned the 1935 Labor Day hurricane as the strongest storm to ever hit land in the US. The implication is that for AGW’s affect on severe weather to be true, past storms can not be as strong as current storms. A ridiculously illogical statement, but that’s the intended message.

Keep up with the strawmannage slimething.

8 Scott Scarborough  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 9:19:18am

The fact that tropical storm and Hurricane intensities are measured by wind speed not pressure seems to make everything mentioned in this article a "straw man." Oh and Kronocide - countering what is said in the article is not generally considered using a straw man argument.

9 slimething  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:30:12am

re: #6 freetoken

Oh please, don't stop there.

10 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:32:31am

Here come the shills for Marc Morano.

11 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:34:26am

re: #6 freetoken

Oh, this should be fun. We'll see how far you are willing to go in covering up the long history of Goddard's obfuscations and Morano's deceptions over the years.

We have a Gish Galloper here.

12 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:42:38am

re: #8 Scott Scarborough

The fact that tropical storm and Hurricane intensities are measured by wind speed not pressure seems to make everything mentioned in this article a "straw man." Oh and Kronocide - countering what is said in the article is not generally considered using a straw man argument.

Countering what is not said in an article is a strawman. Your point seems a strawman in and of itself.

So what article are you referring?

13 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:42:46am

See: Is Extreme Weather Caused by Global Warming?

There is growing empirical evidence that warming temperatures cause more intense hurricanes, heavier rainfalls and flooding, increased conditions for wildfires and dangerous heat waves.

And as usual, the climate change deniers are trying to throw up a blizzard of BS to obfuscate the evidence.

14 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:44:08am

re: #9 slimething

Oh please, don't stop there.

Oh please, go on. How many more strawman inferences are you willing to make?

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:45:05am
16 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:49:23am

Since we're apparently now going to get inundated with climate denier hooey, here's a reminder: you can almost always find definitive answers to their deceptive talking points at Skeptical Science.

17 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:50:04am

re: #5 slimething

You also failed to mention the "Recent historically low global tropical cyclone activity"
[Link: www.agu.org...]

Yes, cyclones are low over 5 years. There's also a large amount of variability in storm activity. From the abstract:

In contrast to record quiet North Pacific tropical cyclone activity in 2010, the North Atlantic basin remained very active by contributing almost one-third of the overall calendar year global ACE.

You failed to mention that. Take a fact or factoid, neglect the summary findings of the body of work the factoid is taken from, make an assessment counter to the body of work the factoid is removed from.

Please, go on.

18 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:51:00am

Now promoting this to the front page...

19 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:57:05am

re: #5 slimething

Nitpicking individual phenomenons does not change the big overall trend. The water cycle is accelerating with the extra energy in the air and oceans. Exactly where that kind of change puts storm tracks is not tied to our coastline. It's tied to it's own stronger dynamics.

21 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:02:49am

re: #5 slimething

I call your bluff an raise you a crocoduck.

22 SteveMcG  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:08:28am
23 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:09:44am

So, we log on and spew anti science word salad and leave.
Typical.
;)

24 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:12:28am

re: #23 Varek Raith

So, we log on and spew anti science word salad and leave.
Typical.
;)

umm,,, errrrr,,,

posted Sat, Dec 8, 2012 9:31:34pm

Not defending, just sayin

25 SteveMcG  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:13:30am

I remember the good old days when it was the democrats where would get overwhelmed by science. What's happened to the GOP and "conservatism" would be embarrassing, if it weren't so pathetic.

26 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:13:43am

re: #24 sattv4u2

umm,,, errrrr,,,

posted Sat, Dec 8, 2012 9:31:34pm

Not defending, just sayin

I was referring to the thread itself.
;)

27 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:14:56am

re: #26 Varek Raith

I was referring to the thread itself.
;)

Ahhh,,, (choo)

Happens often with pages though, no??

28 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:17:40am

re: #26 Varek Raith

That stated, 'it" does, however, have a whiff of sock

Registered since: Dec 8, 2012 at 8:36 pm

29 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:29:52am

If, at this point, we're still trying to convince the Powers the Be that climate change is a Real Problem, then we're way, way, way out from agreeing on workable mitigation. I say "mitigation" because I think we're past the point of "solution" and certainly past the point of "prevention".

I actually think that this is our extinction event. This is what takes us out. Not tomorrow, not next year, maybe not even within a couple hundred years. But I'm confident this is it.

Of course, I'm a pessimist. I'm actually a bit sad that [I suspect] the human race won't survive long enough to be wiped out by our machines and AI, "Terminator"-style.

30 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:34:30am

Does the specifics of the science really matter? It should be obvious to anyone who has a brain that there are 7 BILLION PEOPLE on this planet vying for 1st world resources.

EITHER WE LEARN TO GET ALONG AND Find a system for sharing that works or the PLANET WILL WILL TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM. Make no mistake, the Planet will win.

Of course, if you prefer war and constant famine, keep putting your head-up your-butt keep drinking the kool-aid.

31 SteveMcG  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:35:04am

If there were ever to be a growth industry, it would be green technology. It could have rivalled the internet boom of the 90s, except that we would actually be building something.

32 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:35:43am

re: #29 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I still have hope that before I die I will see us achieve the beginning steps of a Star Trek like world.

33 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:37:06am

re: #32 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'

I still have hope that before I die I will see us achieve the beginning steps of a Star Trek like world.

WE have SEEN IT. personally, I think we just don't see it in THE US.

34 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:37:38am

re: #32 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'

I still have hope that before I die I will see us achieve the beginning steps of a Star Trek like world.

You just want to make love to the green chick~!

//

35 bratwurst  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:37:40am

re: #31 SteveMcG

If there were ever to be a growth industry, it would be green technology. It could have rivalled the internet boom of the 90s, except that we would actually be building something.

but...but...SOLYNDRA!!!!!11!!

36 SteveMcG  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:39:17am

I happen to think most of the deniers are actually driven by hate. They hate the fact that people they disagree with could be right. They hate the fact that the world they thought they knew is leaving them behind. They are just like (and many of them actually are) Teabaggers. Problem with Teabaggers is that if you were to transport them back into time, to the Revolutionary War, they would actually be loyalists because they would hate the commie pinko revolutionaries.

37 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:39:23am

Another career advancement opportunity within the Al Qaeda organization....
U.S. Drone Strike Kills a Senior Al Qaeda Commander

The commander, Abdel Rehman al-Hussainan, died after a drone fired several missiles late last week into a house near Mir Ali, a notorious hub of Islamist militancy, one senior official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

“We can now confirm his death,” he said.

38 dragonfire1981  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:39:50am

You want to see something sombering? Google "Bill nye satanic".

39 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:40:16am

Good Afternoon fellow Lizards. I am on my new Apple that I just got at KOP Mall. I am just getting slightly familiar with it. My old Dell will not boot up. I get [XLDR] ATA error.

40 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:43:58am

re: #30 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Does the specifics of the science really matter? It should be obvious to anyone who has a brain that there are 7 BILLION PEOPLE on this planet vying for 1st world resources.

EITHER WE LEARN TO GET ALONG AND Find a system for sharing that works or the PLANET WILL WILL TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM. Make no mistake, the Planet will win.

Of course, if you prefer war and constant famine, keep putting your head-up your-butt keep drinking the kool-aid.

What is really sad to me is the thinking of people. "It won't happen here" "It won't happen to me--I can defend myself/home whatever."

These seem to also be people who "have read" a lot of history. Somehow, they never seem to get the point that when people work together (currently considered code for Socialism) life for everyone, overall, is pretty good.

I'd really suggest reading some Sci-Fi or otherwise dystopian future type novels.
Perhaps some basic psychology?

41 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:45:30am

But wait, there's more....
U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan said to kill 2 top Al Qaeda leaders
Jimmy Carter springs into action: Former US president Carter slams drone attacks

"I personally think we do more harm than good by having our drones attack some potential terrorists who have not been tried or proven that they are guilty," Carter said in an interview with Russia Today.
"But in the meantime, the drone attacks also kill women and children, sometimes in weddings... so this is the kind of thing we should correct," he added.
...
"We need to back off [and] restore basic human rights as spelled out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)," the former US president underlined.
He concluded by saying that there are 30 paragraphs in the UDHR, "and at present time, my country, the US, is violating 10 out of the 30."

42 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:45:48am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Another career advancement opportunity within the Al Qaeda organization....
U.S. Drone Strike Kills a Senior Al Qaeda Commander

HELP WANTED

Position may be temporary

43 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:46:41am
44 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:47:38am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

But wait, there's more....
U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan said to kill 2 top Al Qaeda leaders
Jimmy Carter springs into action: Former US president Carter slams drone attacks

Well, I agree that would be the ultimate goal, Jimmy. But, as it is now, the old rules of war still apply. Until we change the laws, it will be kill the enemy on foreign ground.

45 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:50:29am

ahhh gotta go,

Have a great afternoon all!

46 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:50:57am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

Dear Jimmy
Go build a house. I will come and help (as I've done before)

Love

me

47 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 11:53:16am

re: #44 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Well, I agree that would be the ultimate goal, Jimmy. But, as it is now, the old rules of war still apply. Until we change the laws, it will be kill the enemy on foreign ground.

The thing that's frustrating with Carter is he knows better. He knows how this stuff works and who we're up against better than almost everybody. There is plenty of room for reasonable discussion and concern with the use of drones but most of the critics are just off the rails.

48 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:04:17pm

bbl

49 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:05:24pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

But wait, there's more....
U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan said to kill 2 top Al Qaeda leaders
Jimmy Carter springs into action: Former US president Carter slams drone attacks

Note to James Earl Carter-Your public undermining of our actually re-elected presidents national security policy is noted. Former Presidents should know better. Keep your personal opinions personal. Take your sour grapes and make some vinegar or something.

50 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:05:27pm

re: #48 PhillyPretzel

bbl

bring food

and beverages

52 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:07:52pm

re: #49 Political Atheist

Note to James Earl Carter-Your public undermining of our actually re-elected presidents national security policy is noted. Former Presidents should know better. Keep your personal opinions personal. Take your sour grapes and make some vinegar or something.

And thats the thing

i could almost, Almost see him doing that during the Bush years, opposing parties/ philosophies and all

but iirc, didn't he endorse Obama ,,, BOTH times?? Call him (Obama) ask for a meeting and express your concerns. NOT in an interview with Russia Today.

53 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:09:02pm

re: #51 Gus

Yeah, wingnut loons tend to glom onto all that stuff together. Ayn Rand's economic theories, birther nonsense, anti-immigrant scaremongering, climate change denial-- basically, the GOP platform.

54 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:10:24pm

re: #53 Obdicut

Yeah, wingnut loons tend to glom onto all that stuff together. Ayn Rand's economic theories, birther nonsense, anti-immigrant scaremongering, climate change denial-- basically, the GOP platform.

slimething obama "birth certificate" site:stevengoddard.wordpress.com

Here we find slimething linking to Inforwars.

55 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:11:03pm

re: #52 sattv4u2

And thats the thing

i could almost, Almost see him doing that during the Bush years, opposing parties and all

but iirc, didn't he endorse Obama ,,, BOTH times?? Call him (Obama) ask for a meeting and express your concerns. NOT in an in an interview with Russia Today.

It's an unspoken rule that ex-presidents usually keep their mouths shut and avoid criticizing the sitting president regardless of party. It's just the classy thing to do. Carter seems to be the only one who doesn't follow that rule.

56 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:11:30pm
57 BongCrodny  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:12:16pm

re: #54 Gus

slimething obama "birth certificate" site:stevengoddard.wordpress.com

Here we find slimething linking to Inforwars.

Now who would have ever thought there would be a mother lode of derp there?

Not me, heavens no!

58 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:21:24pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

It's an unspoken rule that ex-presidents usually keep their mouths shut and avoid criticizing the sitting president regardless of party. It's just the classy thing to do. Carter seems to be the only one who doesn't follow that rule.

(armchair psychology) Since his Presidency ended so poorly I think ever since he's tried to remain relevant on the international stage

funny thing is, one of his absolute best achievements was ON the international stage

59 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:27:53pm

re: #56 Gus

Obama’s Document Has Been Digitally Altered | Real Science

Real science!

Derp.

Wow, so Steve Goddard is also a Birther who has no clue how PDF files work.

Color me surprised.

60 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:28:59pm

Here's another example from Steven Goddard:

US Fire Count Continues To Plummet

Just one simple thing. The number of fires have decreased however the size and acreage is trending upward.

See graphs here and here.

61 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:29:03pm
62 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:29:59pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

Shocka!

Moozlamic rayguns too!

63 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:33:24pm

re: #58 sattv4u2

(armchair psychology) Since his Presidency ended so poorly I think ever since he's tried to remain relevant on the international stage

funny thing is, one of his absolute best achievements was ON the international stage

I think he just succumbed to his political instincts. It happens to a lot of very smart people, they get sucked in, abandon all logic and common sense and next thing they know they're wearing pantaloons or attending a Bradley Manning rally.

64 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:38:45pm

here's a rare case where Obama opted to spare them the drone treatment and bring them back for trial.

Deputy Federal Public Defender Jeffrey Aaron wants to know why terror suspect Sohiel Omar Kabir arrived in the U.S. with broken bones, cuts and memory loss.
They still bitch.

65 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:38:52pm
66 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:40:50pm

Meanwhile in Portland: Police: Two children attempt armed robbery in Southeast Portland church parking lot

Authorities said they seized a loaded firearm from an 11-year-old boy who, along with a 7-year-old boy, allegedly tried robbing a woman in a church parking lot Saturday.

According to a department press release, officers responded at 12:15 p.m. to 16000 SE Alder St. to a report from an 11-year-old boy who reported seeing another 11-year-old boy with a loaded handgun.

67 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:41:37pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

here's a rare case where Obama opted to spare them the drone treatment and bring them back for trial.

Deputy Federal Public Defender Jeffrey Aaron wants to know why terror suspect Sohiel Omar Kabir arrived in the U.S. with broken bones, cuts and memory loss.
They still bitch.

There is this:

Kabir, a naturalized U.S. citizen, is the suspected ringleader of a plot to kill Americans and bomb military bases overseas.

68 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:42:11pm

re: #56 Gus

In a weird way, I'm grateful to people like Morano and Goddard and Watts. Seeing the crazy right wing anti-science idiocy they promote was one of the reasons why I started to dig deeper into the climate change issue, and helped me realize how utterly dishonest and intellectually corrupt the denial movement is.

69 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:46:55pm

re: #67 Gus
Looks like he did some time in the military
California Terror Plot: Suspects Range From Air Force Vet To High School Dropout

Kabir, a naturalized U.S. citizen from Afghanistan, served in the Air Force from 2000 to 2001. He was administratively separated for unknown reasons and was given an honorable discharge but not for reasons of misconduct, the military said.

70 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:49:18pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Kabir also had intended to go on a suicide mission earlier this month but got sick, according to the court documents.

LOL

71 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:50:07pm

re: #67 Gus

More important, imho
Kabir, a naturalized U.S. citizen, is the suspected ringleader of a plot to kill Americans and bomb military bases overseas.

72 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:50:59pm

re: #71 sattv4u2

More important, imho
Kabir, a naturalized U.S. citizen, is the suspected ringleader of a plot to kill Americans and bomb military bases overseas.

Suspect. Are we calling to disregard the US Constitution here?

73 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:51:14pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

LOL

BWWAAAHAHAHAHA

Dear Diary

Sadly, I will not be able to die today for the cause. I have the sniffles!!

74 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:51:43pm

re: #72 Gus

Suspect. Are we calling to disregard the US Constitution here?

I included the highlighted word SUSPECTed

75 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:52:16pm

Bye. Not in the mood for this CRAP.

76 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:52:34pm

re: #72 Gus

Suspect. Are we calling to disregard the US Constitution here?

If they had been killed by a drone in an Al Qaeda training camp in Pakistan they would not have been protected by the Constitution.

77 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 12:59:18pm

re: #75 Gus

Bye. Not in the mood for this CRAP.

Que "CRAP"?!?!?

78 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:05:17pm

re: #5 slimething

You also failed to mention there hasn't been a major landfall hurricane in the U.S. since 2005; an "unprecedented" observation.

Who, of any expert or body in the matter, said this was 'unprecedented?'

You fail to mention that in 2005 there were three major landfall hurricanes.

You fail to mention that 'Major Landfall Hurricane' is a label applied to Category 3 and higher: remove that completely spurious classification and we still have lots of hurricanes and lots of data painting a much different picture than your mendaciously specific factoid:

2008:

The 2008 Atlantic basin hurricane season was above the 1950-2000 average with 16 named storms, of which eight were hurricanes, including five major hurricanes. The ACE index of hurricane activity indicated an above-average season, with a preliminary value of approximately 142 x104 knots2. In terms of accumulated cyclone energy (based on integrated wind power of all tropical cyclones during the season, both landfalling and those remaining out at sea), 2008 ranked as the 16th most energetic season out of the last 59.

2009:

The 2009 North Atlantic hurricane season had nine named storms, three hurricanes, and two major hurricanes. This is the fewest number of hurricanes for a North Atlantic season since 1997. An average season has 11 named storms, six hurricanes, and two major hurricanes. Only two tropical storms and no hurricanes made landfall in the U.S. for the season. This is only the 13th time that no hurricanes have struck the U.S. during a hurricane season (June-November) since 1943.

2010:

The 2010 North Atlantic hurricane season was extremely active with 19 named storms, 12 hurricanes, and five major hurricanes. The 2010 season ties with 1887 and 1995 for third most named storms on record and tied with 1969 for second most hurricanes. The years 2005 and 1933 had more named names, while only 2005 had more hurricanes. The basin on average experiences 11 named storms, six hurricanes, and two major hurricanes during a season. Only one tropical storm and no hurricanes made landfall in the U.S., despite the active season. This marks the second consecutive season with no U.S. landfalling hurricane and only the 14th time on record that no hurricanes made landfall in the United States. The last time there were two consecutive seasons without a U.S. hurricane landfall was 2000 and 2001. This is the first time that no hurricanes made landfall during such an active season.

2011:

The 2011 North Atlantic hurricane season had 19 named storms, seven hurricanes, and three major hurricanes. The 19 named storms tied with 2010, 1995, and 1887 as the third busiest year for tropical cyclones in the basin. The second most active tropical cyclone year for the Atlantic basin was 1933. An average season has 11 named storms, six hurricanes, and two major hurricanes. The seven storms which reached hurricane strength and the three that reached Category 3 status (major hurricane) are both near the average, despite the high number of tropical storms. One hurricane (Irene) and one tropical storm (Lee) made landfall in the U.S. during the 2011 season. Hurricane Irene was the first Hurricane since Ike in 2008 that made landfall in the nation.

Lots of hurricanes, lots of energy, lots of data.

And from you, lots of ignorance and obfuscation.

79 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:07:20pm

re: #75 Gus

Bye. Not in the mood for this CRAP.

Muslamic Suiciders are a much more serious threat to the world than quaint climate change deniers.

80 uncah91  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:09:59pm

re: #79 Kronocide

Muslamic Suiciders are a much more serious threat to the world than quaint climate change deniers.

Derp?

Sarc I am guessing...

81 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:10:27pm

re: #79 Kronocide

Muslamic Suiciders are a much more serious threat to the world than quaint climate change deniers.

Some nobody doofus blogger denier doesn't pose as great a threat as a terrorist bent on killing Americans and bombing military bases

82 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:10:40pm

re: #71 sattv4u2

More important, imho
Kabir, a naturalized U.S. citizen, is the suspected ringleader of a plot to kill Americans and bomb military bases overseas.

Just wait until a drone is used to take out a right wing militia group in the US.

83 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:11:47pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Just wait until a drone is used to take out a right wing militia group in the US.

And who would be launching said drone??

84 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:12:33pm

re: #80 uncah91

Derp?

Sarc I am guessing...

Oh yes. Dripping putrid Plutonium 238 sarc.

85 uncah91  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:13:05pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

Sorry, but some nobody doofus blogger denier doesn't pose as great a threat as a terrorist bent on killing Americans and bombing military bases

The denial industry poses a much greater threat to the US in the long term than international terrorism...

86 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:14:29pm

re: #85 uncah91

The denial industry poses a much greater threat to the US in the long term than international terrorism...

And if international terrorism wins out we won't need worry about the long term

87 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:15:15pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

Sorry, but some nobody doofus blogger denier doesn't pose as great a threat as a terrorist bent on killing Americans and bombing military bases

I would agree with that. But the threat of human caused climate change is much more menacing than jihadis and terrorists long term. From that perspective, doofus bloggers are every bit if not more damaging that keyboard jihadis ranting about US hegemony.

The micro perspective is much different than the macro perspective.

88 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:15:49pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

If they had been killed by a drone in an Al Qaeda training camp in Pakistan they would not have been protected by the Constitution.

Sure they would have. The constitution doesn't protect people against being killed at war.

What you're saying is the equivalent of "If we could have killed them legitimately, we can do anything we'd like to them legitimately". It's a patently false argument.

A cop taking fire from a suspect can fire and kill him. He can't, if he captures him, torture him. A soldier can shoot an enemy on the battlefield, but if he captures him, he can't rape him.

These are obvious things.

89 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:16:02pm

re: #86 sattv4u2

And if international terrorism wins out we won't need worry about the long term

Whut?

90 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:16:23pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

Some nobody doofus blogger denier doesn't pose as great a threat as a terrorist bent on killing Americans and bombing military bases

Sure he does, in what he represents. Remember that the GOP has denial of science as a party plank.

91 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:16:24pm

re: #87 Kronocide

The micro perspective is much different than the macro perspective

I agree

But there are things you can and should do today, and there are things that you must do today

92 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:16:49pm

Interested to know what 'international terrorism winning out' means.

93 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:17:30pm

re: #92 Kronocide

Interested to know what 'international terrorism winning out' means.

What is their goal, their aim, their end game?

94 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:17:42pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

The micro perspective is much different than the macro perspective

I agree

But there are things you can and should do today, and there are things that you must do today

Like discuss micro terrorism events in a climate denialist thread.

95 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:18:27pm

re: #93 sattv4u2

What is their goal, their aim, their end game?

You tell me what 'winning out' means.

96 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:19:05pm

re: #95 Kronocide

You tell me what 'winning out' means.

Achieving their goal, their aim, their end game

Now, what do you think that is?

97 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:19:31pm

re: #94 Kronocide

Like discuss micro terrorism events in a climate denialist thread.

we never go off topic,,, nope,, never

98 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:20:52pm

BBIAB ,,, early games coming to an end
Late games gearing up

gotta do check-ins

99 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:21:15pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

Achieving their goal, their aim, their end game

Now, what do you think that is?

International terrorists have zero chance of overthrowing the US government or presenting any sort of existential threat to the US.

Climate change presents actual existential threat to the US: moreover, climate change desperately needs to be addressed now and one political party, the GOP denies it even exists and blocks attempts to address it.

100 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:21:48pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

Achieving their goal, their aim, their end game

Now, what do you think that is?

Won't say what you mean, instead leading with questions.

Damn! Sattified again!

101 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:24:32pm

re: #99 Obdicut

International terrorists have zero chance of overthrowing the US government or presenting any sort of existential threat to the US.

Climate change presents actual existential threat to the US: moreover, climate change desperately needs to be addressed now and one political party, the GOP denies it even exists and blocks attempts to address it.

Well said.

In the wildest visions and dreams of last 10 heads of al Quaeda, the ultimate success is beating out the US and exerting dominion in their little slices of the world.

Pales in comparison to large scale climate denial ultimately successful in delaying or causing inaction.

102 TedStriker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:29:29pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

If they had been killed by a drone in an Al Qaeda training camp in Pakistan they would not have been protected by the Constitution.

The fact that the alleged terrorism suspect (a naturalized US citizen) was taken into custody negates your argument; as it stands, Kabir is entitled to due process in an American criminal court, not to be worked over on the way back home.

103 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:30:11pm

Climate change and terrorism are both major threats with catastrophic potential. This either or argument is at right angles to what needs to be done. What happen to our climate if a terror attack sets off a nuclear exchange? Our climate will not be untouched if say Pakistan and India exchanged a few nukes. Sound like a remote possibility? Yes it is, so far. But far less remote than before those countries had nukes, and this deep terror problem.

In both instances the worst case is a disaster we really could have avoided.

Nuclear winter would be a sub optimal solution to global warming.

Don't we really have to address both issues at the same time? Neither threat is wise to ignore.

104 TedStriker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:30:18pm

re: #86 sattv4u2

And if international terrorism wins out we won't need worry about the long term

BOOGA BOOGA

105 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:33:31pm

Obdi,
Have you seen this? IIRC you have an interest in psychology.

The New "Mood Disorder" That Isn't One

The storied history of "Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder (DMDD)", a controversial new child psychiatric disorder proposed for inclusion in the new DSM-5 manual, continues.

106 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:33:57pm

re: #86 sattv4u2

And if international terrorism wins out we won't need worry about the long term

Nope.
They have no way of destroying us.

107 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:35:00pm

re: #103 Political Atheist

Don't we really have to address both issues at the same time? Neither threat is wise to ignore.

Islamic terrorism is not being ignored. But, it is being used to advance other agendas.

Climate change is being ignored. In fact, massive efforts to deny it exists are being funded.

So yes, both important, both with catastrophic potential. Long term, the potential of climate change is orders of magnitude worse than any but the largest nuclear exchange.

108 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:37:47pm

Climate change is a far greater threat than terrorism.
Let's not delude ourselves here.

109 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:38:18pm

re: #103 Political Atheist

I don't think any one here would really argue that terrorism isn't a dangerous thing and shouldn't be taken seriously. However, to come into a thread like KT and SAT did about the serious problem with the climate change denial of their political party and try to change the subject to "Climate change is just a small hippy gripe compared to terrorist takeover of the USA" was pitiful.

110 kirkspencer  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:42:20pm

I'm kinda in a peevish mood so I'll drop a chestnut in response to the war on terrorism:

How do you make war on a concept?

Seriously,what are the victory conditions? What are the strategic objectives?

Failure to properly identify that makes success pretty much impossible - unless the goal is indefinits conflict. (see war on drugs, war on crime, and war on poverty.)

111 allegro  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:43:36pm

re: #108 Varek Raith

Climate change is a far greater threat than terrorism.
Let's not delude ourselves here.

What a strange conversation. Addressing one has nothing to do with addressing the other.

112 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:44:02pm

re: #111 allegro

What a strange conversation. Addressing one has nothing to do with addressing the other.

Seriously.
How odd.

113 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:55:25pm

re: #108 Varek Raith

With all due respect to the people involved, I think this comparison argument is silly. I want no part of that argument.

When I brought up climate and a nuclear war, I was thinking of this article from National Geographic. Terror could trigger something like this. BTW maybe one of the worst titles ever.
"Small Nuclear War Could Reverse Global Warming for Years"
The lesson is even a "small" *shudder* nuclear war could impact the climate and not at all for the better.

But nuclear war remains a very real threat—for instance, between developing-world nuclear powers, such as India and Pakistan.

To see what climate effects such a regional nuclear conflict might have, scientists from NASA and other institutions modeled a war involving a hundred Hiroshima-level bombs, each packing the equivalent of 15,000 tons of TNT—just 0.03 percent of the world's current nuclear arsenal. (See a National Geographic magazine feature on weapons of mass destruction.)

The researchers predicted the resulting fires would kick up roughly five million metric tons of black carbon into the upper part of the troposphere, the lowest layer of the Earth's atmosphere.

In NASA climate models, this carbon then absorbed solar heat and, like a hot-air balloon, quickly lofted even higher, where the soot would take much longer to clear from the sky.

"The main message from our work," NASA's Oman said, "would be that even a regional nuclear conflict would have global consequences."

114 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:58:20pm

So terrorists are now capable of triggering a small nuclear exchange?

115 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 1:59:21pm

re: #114 Varek Raith

So terrorists are now capable of triggering a small nuclear exchange?

Terrorist are capable of anything, apparently, including derailing conversations about climate change.

116 dragonath  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:01:13pm

Egypt opposition group to boycott 'irresponsible' vote on new constitution

Because everyone knows, boycotts always work...

/

117 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:01:24pm

re: #114 Varek Raith

As I did say above it's remote for now. India and Pakistan have fought several wars. A series of terror attacks in India of Pakistani origin could light the fuse. It's worth making all of these potential threats more remote. All of them. Nukes, terror and climate change.

118 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:04:47pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

Some nobody doofus blogger denier doesn't pose as great a threat as a terrorist bent on killing Americans and bombing military bases

I think some people missed this part of what you said.

119 BongCrodny  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:06:35pm

re: #110 kirkspencer

Seriously,what are the victory conditions? What are the strategic objectives?

We have to kill all the terrorists.
Then we have to kill all their sponsors.
And if other terrorists are created because we've killed their family members, then we have to kill them too.
And we probably have to kill their children, just to be on the safe side.

Oh, what the fuck. Let's just kill everybody.

120 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:06:58pm

gggrrrrrr

NBC,,, FOX ,, a pox on both your sports houses!!!!

121 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:07:22pm

A half dozen comments cheering Obama's successes today against global terrorists is not a thread hijack.
The 40 comments complaining about it is the thread hijack.

122 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:07:40pm

Climate denial in Congress? Terrifying. In some slacker mom's basement? Not so much.

123 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:08:46pm

re: #118 Political Atheist

I think some people missed this part of what you said.

Yes,, thanks

I thought the thread was about some goof by the name of Morano NOT about denial (which btw, i've never done)

That we started talking about something else is not unusual here

124 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:08:52pm

re: #122 Political Atheist

Climate denial in Congress? Terrifying. In some slacker mom's basement? Not so much.

You do realize we're talking about a guy who just appeared on CNN, right?

125 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:09:30pm

re: #124 Obdicut

You do realize we're talking about a guy who just appeared on CNN, right?

Good

His doofisness is out in the open!

126 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:11:00pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

It's still your fault!

(and mine, apparently!!)

127 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:11:12pm

re: #125 sattv4u2

No, Satt, as Charles rightly pointed out above, giving people like this even the credibility of appearance is far too much. The guy spewed out a huge amount of disinformation in a short time, leaving Bill Nye unable to cogently knock it all down.

It's propaganda. It's not 'better' to have it flying around. It's better to have it be not tolerated as the anti-science bullshit it is and for kooks like this dude to not be invited onto TV any more than a flat-earther would be.

128 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:12:05pm

re: #108 Varek Raith

Climate change is a far greater threat than terrorism.
Let's not delude ourselves here.

never said it wasn't

that doesn't mean I can't be concerned with both

i've been trained to multi-task!!

129 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:12:22pm

re: #125 sattv4u2

Good

His doofisness is out in the open!

And yet you voted for this crap.
Awesome.

130 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:12:42pm

Marc Morano and Steve Goddard are two of the most influential figures in the climate change denial movement. Calling either of them "nobody doofus bloggers in their Mom's basements" could not possibly be further off the mark. These people are influencing Republican Party policy on climate change.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:14:25pm

re: #127 Obdicut

No, Satt, as Charles rightly pointed out above, giving people like this even the credibility of appearance is far too much

Then blame CNN for putting him on
But like the KKK nuts, wouldn't you rather have someone like that out in the open rather than slithering around in the dark?

It's better to have it be not tolerated as the anti-science bullshit

Thats true. Then the onus was on CNN (again) to have someone up to the task of hammering this loon down

132 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:17:10pm

PEOPLE

These shows (the CNN one being discussed) are taped in advance (or at least the segment like the one being discussed is) . Once the show is 'in the can' CNN (or FOX, NBC, CBS, et al) can either run it or replace it. If Nye came off badly CNN could have easily redone the segment with someone else, or passed on it totally

133 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:18:30pm

re: #129 Varek Raith

And yet you voted for this crap.
Awesome.

"I" voted for ....!?!?!?

You have no clue as to how/who i cast ballots for

134 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:19:51pm

re: #133 sattv4u2

"I" voted for ....!?!?!?

You have no clue as to how/who i cast ballots for

You vote Republican, you vote for climate denial.

135 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:20:22pm

re: #134 Varek Raith

You vote Republican, you vote for climate denial.

Again, You have no clue as to how/who i cast ballots for

136 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:21:04pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

Again, You have no clue as to how/who i cast ballots for

Who'd you vote for in November?

137 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:21:21pm

"oh ,, but we KNOW how you vote,, because ,,because ,, you updinged Kilgore about ,, something!!"

138 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:22:01pm

re: #136 Varek Raith

Who'd you vote for in November?

Non of your business

And notice that i've never asked anyone who they voted for,, not even my wife

139 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:22:04pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

But like the KKK nuts, wouldn't you rather have someone like that out in the open rather than slithering around in the dark?

No, I don't miss the days when white supremacy was openly tolerated and able to be promoted on mainstream media. Unfortunately, it still is somewhat on FOX news and other right-wing media outlets.

I don't understand why you think it's a good idea to give airtime to the view of the KKK. Can you explain why you like to see this sort of propaganda get distributed?

Thats true. Then the onus was on CNN (again) to have someone up to the task of hammering this loon down

I get that you're pretending to not understand the basic concept of the Gish Gallop-- it's very different from your intentionally obtuse style of disingenuous argument, after all-- but it's pretty simple to comprehend: Climate change deniers, creationists and the like use opportunities like this one to rapid-fire spit out such an array of distortions, lies, fabrications, half-truths, etc. that no reasonable scientist can hope to respond to them cogently. T his is because it is far easier to bullshit than to make a good case.

So, it's better to not give airtime to the stupid propagandandists, because while they lack substance, they can give the impression of an actual argument.

140 TedStriker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:24:59pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

PEOPLE

These shows (the CNN one being discussed) are taped in advance (or at least the segment like the one being discussed is) . Once the show is 'in the can' CNN (or FOX, NBC, CBS, et al) can either run it or replace it. If Nye came off badly CNN could have easily redone the segment with someone else, or passed on it totally

Not if the network wants that conflict between Morano (someone that no one, outside of people who follow climate change arguments, knows who they are) and Nye (someone who everyone knows about) to go on-air.

Satt, you've presumably been in the business long enough to know that it's all about the ratings (and the money that higher ratings bring)...and that's what this is all about, in the end.

CNN is banking on the Know-Nothings.

141 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:25:42pm

re: #139 Obdicut

No, I don't miss the days when white supremacy was openly tolerated and able to be promoted on mainstream media

Where did i say "openly tolerated"? Don't place words in my mouth. The question was, would you rather KNOW that the guy down the street was in the KKK or would you prefer he be able to skulk around in the shadows

. Can you explain why you like to see this sort of propaganda get distributed?

I did. Can you explain why you can't comprehend that??

the basic concept of the Gish Gallop

To be honest, until yesterday, i never saw the phrase

So, it's better to not give airtime to the stupid propagandandists,
Again,, CNN's call. So go to their blog and complain!!

142 dragonath  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:26:44pm

re: #138 sattv4u2

Non of your business

And notice that i've never asked anyone who they voted for,, not even my wife

Sattv4u2, International Man of Mystery

143 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:27:09pm

re: #141 sattv4u2

Where did i say "openly tolerated"? Don't place words in my mouth. The question was, would you rather KNOW that the guy down the street was in the KKK or would you prefer he be able to skulk around in the shadows

I'd prefer he not be interviewed on CNN, which is what we were actually talking about.

I did. Can you explain why you can't comprehend that??

Your explanation made no sense. As is usual with your explanations. You want people to be able to spread propaganda so you know who they are. Great. That's fucking genius Bob. Why not take the rest of the day off, you've earned it.

144 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:27:22pm

re: #140 TedStriker

Satt, you've presumably been in the business long enough to know that it's all about the ratings (and the money that higher ratings bring)...and that's what this is all about, in the end.

that I have, but the best ratings are a debate between two (or more) recognizable figures, and by your own words " Morano (someone that no one, outside of people who follow climate change arguments, knows who they are isn't in that league

145 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:29:10pm

re: #138 sattv4u2

Non of your business

And notice that i've never asked anyone who they voted for,, not even my wife

Yeah, if I voted for these anti science guy too I'd be hesitant to admit it.

146 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:29:39pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

"oh ,, but we KNOW how you vote,, because ,,because ,, you updinged Kilgore about ,, something!!"

Don't fell bad. I voted for Obama and I'm still accused of being a secret Mitt Romney Tea Partier.

147 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:29:43pm

re: #143 Obdicut

Why not take the rest of the day off, you've earned it.

I'm sure I have, but I still have another 6 1/2 hours to go

And I noticed, no answer to the question i asked!!

148 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:29:56pm

re: #145 Varek Raith

Yeah, if I voted for these anti science guy too I'd be hesitant to admit it.

It's entirely possible Satt votes true-blue Democrat and has all his life and just gets off on being an obtuse troll on the internet. People are weird.

149 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:30:21pm

re: #148 Obdicut

and the name calling starts!!

150 TedStriker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:30:44pm

re: #139 Obdicut

No, I don't miss the days when white supremacy was openly tolerated and able to be promoted on mainstream media. Unfortunately, it still is somewhat on FOX news and other right-wing media outlets.

I don't understand why you think it's a good idea to give airtime to the view of the KKK. Can you explain why you like to see this sort of propaganda get distributed?

I get that you're pretending to not understand the basic concept of the Gish Gallop-- it's very different from your intentionally obtuse style of disingenuous argument, after all-- but it's pretty simple to comprehend: Climate change deniers, creationists and the like use opportunities like this one to rapid-fire spit out such an array of distortions, lies, fabrications, half-truths, etc. that no reasonable scientist can hope to respond to them cogently. T his is because it is far easier to bullshit than to make a good case.

So, it's better to not give airtime to the stupid propagandandists, because while they lack substance, they can give the impression of an actual argument.

The Gish Gallop is perfectly suited for venues where both sides are time-limited (radio/TV appearances, presidential debates, etc.), not so much when there's time to pick it apart...and even that's difficult at best.

151 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:30:53pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Don't fell bad. I voted for Obama and I'm still accused of being a secret Mitt Romney Tea Partier.

It's one of the dangers of playing stupid and acting the facile contrarian. People start to believe that's the real you.

152 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:31:57pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Don't fell bad. I voted for Obama and I'm still accused of being a secret Mitt Romney Tea Partier.

LIAR,,,

I saw the Ron Paul sign on your frogs!!

153 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:32:27pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

re: #152 sattv4u2

LIAR,,,

I saw the Ron Paul sign on your frogs!!

(or maybe it was just the frogs that voted for him)

154 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:33:32pm

re: #150 TedStriker

The Gish Gallop is perfectly suited for venues where both sides are time-limited (radio/TV appearances, presidential debates, etc.), not so much when there's time to pick it apart...and even that's difficult at best.

There's a lot of reasons why it's an effective technique in the US, and sadly one of them is the poor science education that many students in the US get. This has been exacerbated by the GOP's push against teaching evolution, climate change, and any other sort of science that offends them, but it's also just from long-standing problems in the way we teach science here in the US. We also don't teach logic and rhetoric in school the way that we should.

But again, the hyper-religious segment of the US is strongly against that, because logic and rhetoric tend to upset the apple-carts of 'revealed truth' religions.

155 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:34:34pm

Basically, we need a second Enlightenment.

156 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:34:44pm

gish gallop

there is an even simpler form of bogus argument that has become popular lately, as newt gingirich often demonstrates:

1) cite true but irrelevant fact
2) claim this disproves an valid argument (edited)
3) profit!

Deja Newt: Gingrich Refuses to Acknowledge or Apologize for 20 Year Old Wrong Prediction

another method is popular with "conservative" bloggers

1) post a link to an article that you claim proves your point
2) rest secure in the knowledge that almost all of your readers will be too lazy to click the link and read the article and find out that it either does not actually prove your point at all, or, even more amusingly, actually proves just the opposite
3) if somebody points this out, change the subject

157 TedStriker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:34:52pm

re: #144 sattv4u2


Satt, you've presumably been in the business long enough to know that it's all about the ratings (and the money that higher ratings bring)...and that's what this is all about, in the end.

that I have, but the best ratings are a debate between two (or more) recognizable figures, and by your own words " Morano (someone that no one, outside of people who follow climate change arguments, knows who they are isn't in that league

The problem with this argument is that, by having Morano "debate" Bill Nye the Science Guy, they automatically lent Morano credibility, due to their position in the media and because of who Nye is. Also, all money's green, so they didn't need to get the highest ratings in their timeslot for Morano v. Nye.

158 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:37:01pm

re: #157 TedStriker

Also, all money's green, so they didn't need to get the highest ratings in their timeslot for Morano v. Nye

Not really

They do immediate tracking and if dials are being turned off, the money will dry up. Thats why "nobodies' don't last!

159 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:39:09pm

re: #154 Obdicut

There's a lot of reasons why it's an effective technique in the US, and sadly one of them is the poor science education that many students in the US get. This has been exacerbated by the GOP's push against teaching evolution, climate change, and any other sort of science that offends them, but it's also just from long-standing problems in the way we teach science here in the US. We also don't teach logic and rhetoric in school the way that we should.

But again, the hyper-religious segment of the US is strongly against that, because logic and rhetoric tend to upset the apple-carts of 'revealed truth' religions.

and it is so easy to appear to win an argument whatever the merit of one's "facts" or arguments merely by acting as if you have definitely proven your point

this is essentially how mitt "won" the first debate

160 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:40:26pm

re: #153 sattv4u2

re: #152 sattv4u2

(or maybe it was just the frogs that voted for him)

Twice each.

161 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:42:18pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Twice each.

a voice vote, no doubt

162 Tigger2005  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:46:41pm

When are scientists finally going to get their act together when it comes to debating these kinds of people? For scientists they can be awfully clueless. Come on guys...break out the videotape and prepare. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Take a scientific approach, study past debates, learn what works and what doesn't. Figure out strategies to neutralize the inevitable flood of disinformation. Insist on ground rules.

163 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:48:42pm

re: #161 sattv4u2

a voice vote, no doubt

[Embedded content]

My frogs get like that for about a week in May for the mating season. This time of year they spread out around the neighborhood and croak a bit when it rains. A couple ladies knocked on my door just this afternoon asking where a bought the electronic frog noise maker. They didn't believe they were real frogs.

164 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:49:52pm

re: #161 sattv4u2

a voice vote, no doubt

[Embedded content]

Ok, new thread. Don't say anything about terrorists.
/Shhh!

165 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:51:00pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

Ok, new thread. Don't say anything about terrorists.
/Shhh!

Or frogs
Or OWS
Or football
Or,,,,,

166 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:53:40pm

re: #162 Tigger2005

The deniers are like the guy that is told by a doctor that he has cancer and will die in 6 months. But Doc.. I feel fine you must be lying!
Over a period of time some days he feels great and also some days feels really bad.. But the bad isn't related to the cancer he thinks.

167 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:54:05pm

ouch

what did I just feel!?!?!

168 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:54:16pm

re: #162 Tigger2005

I don't think there is any effective response to the Gish Gallop. When you're time-limited, you're not going to be able to knock all their shit down. Maybe getting angry would work, maybe appealing to the host. I dunno. I've never seen it successfully countered.

169 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:54:45pm

re: #166 A Man for all Seasons

Or the guy who is convinced he's not hung over, there must have been something weird in those cherries.

170 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 2:56:17pm

re: #166 A Man for all Seasons

A doctor gave a man six months to live. The man couldn't pay his bill, so he gave him another six months.

h/t Henny Youngman

171 Tigger2005  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 3:16:54pm

re: #168 Obdicut

I don't think there is any effective response to the Gish Gallop. When you're time-limited, you're not going to be able to knock all their shit down. Maybe getting angry would work, maybe appealing to the host. I dunno. I've never seen it successfully countered.

If they can't respond effectively, or neutralize it by setting debate rules, then they just shouldn't debate. It's a stupid waste of time. It doesn't help the pro-science side at all...I would say on balance it probably hurts the science side more than refusing to debate would. The place to fight this battle is in the courts where the Gish debate style counts for nothing.

172 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 3:26:32pm

re: #171 Tigger2005

I agree. That's why people like Dennett and Dawkins have a rule-- I think first promoted by Stephen J. Gould-- to not debate creationists.

173 slimething  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:00:44pm

For those who may not know (sarc/off), there were no satellites during the 1930's, and storm counts were spuriously low until the technology improved in later decades. As was already posted, the tropical storm count is biased for the second half of the 20th century because of that. This is also true of tornadoes and storms in general.

Kronocide, try again. Of course like any published material it could be wrong, but sometimes the obvious must be pointed out.

Perhaps you missed this:
[Link: www.agu.org...]

"The number of North Atlantic tropical storms lasting 2 days or less exhibits a large increase starting from the middle of the 20th century, driving the increase in recorded number of tropical storms over the past century. Here we present a set of quantitative analyses to assess whether this behavior is more likely associated with climate variability/change or with changes in observing systems. By using statistical methods combined with the current understanding of the physical processes, we are unable to find support for the hypothesis that the century-scale record of short-lived tropical cyclones in the Atlantic contains a detectable real climate signal. Therefore, we interpret the long-term secular increase in short-duration North Atlantic tropical storms as likely to be substantially inflated by observing system changes over time. These results strongly suggest that studies examining the frequency of North Atlantic tropical storms over the historical era (between the 19th century and present) should focus on storms of duration greater than about 2 days."

I'm sure you noticed this [Link: www.agu.org...] , the one you quoted from and said I "failed to mention" cites the above paper :) Nice try.

Since Warmology is all about everything "global", based on the available data at [Link: policlimate.com...] would someone care to point where the data suggests there is an upward trend in tropical storm frequency since 1970, the satellite era?

Image: frequency_12months.png

174 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:01:25pm

The Gish Gallop, textbook case.

175 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:09:09pm

re: #173 slimething

I'm curious - do you have some kind of clipping folder so you can quickly copy and paste these denier talking points into any comment thread? I'd just like to know more about the mechanics of how deniers do their work.

176 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:11:31pm
177 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:17:33pm

re: #173 slimething

Oh, so you're one of those who also believes President Obama's birth certificate was faked, because you analyzed the pixels?

178 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:18:38pm

re: #176 Interesting Times

slimething is a birther who also links to 9/11 truthers.
His argument is irrelevant.

Really? We hit the ignorance trifecta today?

179 kirkspencer  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:25:04pm

re: #173 slimething

For those who may not know (sarc/off), there were no satellites during the 1930's, and storm counts were spuriously low until the technology improved in later decades. As was already posted, the tropical storm count is biased for the second half of the 20th century because of that. This is also true of tornadoes and storms in general.

Kronocide, try again. Of course like any published material it could be wrong, but sometimes the obvious must be pointed out.

Perhaps you missed this:
[Link: www.agu.org...]

"The number of North Atlantic tropical storms lasting 2 days or less exhibits a large increase starting from the middle of the 20th century, driving the increase in recorded number of tropical storms over the past century. Here we present a set of quantitative analyses to assess whether this behavior is more likely associated with climate variability/change or with changes in observing systems. By using statistical methods combined with the current understanding of the physical processes, we are unable to find support for the hypothesis that the century-scale record of short-lived tropical cyclones in the Atlantic contains a detectable real climate signal. Therefore, we interpret the long-term secular increase in short-duration North Atlantic tropical storms as likely to be substantially inflated by observing system changes over time. These results strongly suggest that studies examining the frequency of North Atlantic tropical storms over the historical era (between the 19th century and present) should focus on storms of duration greater than about 2 days."

I'm sure you noticed this [Link: www.agu.org...] , the one you quoted from and said I "failed to mention" cites the above paper :) Nice try.

Since Warmology is all about everything "global", based on the available data at [Link: policlimate.com...] would someone care to point where the data suggests there is an upward trend in tropical storm frequency since 1970, the satellite era?

Image: frequency_12months.png

wait. The article you cite says only that because of changes in observational methodology, short term (two day or less) storms should be ignored when measuring whether the storm rate has increased.

It does not say there has not been an increase in storms. It just shows that using short term storms may be flawed.

180 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:30:08pm

re: #173 slimething

For those who may not know (sarc/off), there were no satellites during the 1930's, and storm counts were spuriously low until the technology improved in later decades. As was already posted, the tropical storm count is biased for the second half of the 20th century because of that. This is also true of tornadoes and storms in general.

Kronocide, try again. Of course like any published material it could be wrong, but sometimes the obvious must be pointed out.

Perhaps you missed this:
[Link: www.agu.org...]

"The number of North Atlantic tropical storms lasting 2 days or less exhibits a large increase starting from the middle of the 20th century, driving the increase in recorded number of tropical storms over the past century. Here we present a set of quantitative analyses to assess whether this behavior is more likely associated with climate variability/change or with changes in observing systems. By using statistical methods combined with the current understanding of the physical processes, we are unable to find support for the hypothesis that the century-scale record of short-lived tropical cyclones in the Atlantic contains a detectable real climate signal. Therefore, we interpret the long-term secular increase in short-duration North Atlantic tropical storms as likely to be substantially inflated by observing system changes over time. These results strongly suggest that studies examining the frequency of North Atlantic tropical storms over the historical era (between the 19th century and present) should focus on storms of duration greater than about 2 days."

I'm sure you noticed this [Link: www.agu.org...] , the one you quoted from and said I "failed to mention" cites the above paper :) Nice try.

Since Warmology is all about everything "global", based on the available data at [Link: policlimate.com...] would someone care to point where the data suggests there is an upward trend in tropical storm frequency since 1970, the satellite era?

Image: frequency_12months.png

Since there were no satellites to track, and people apparently couldn't write or keep track of storms back in the '30s, how do you know they storms weren't over reported?

I hope you are also aware that no scientist would claim any phenomenon related to warming has to go up in any given year. There are too many systems such as ENSO that cover the trend with noise. What has been observed and is important is the trend in available energy.

181 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:33:47pm

re: #173 slimething

Warmology

thank you for your detailed analysis. since you feel confident in discussing this scientific issue, explain this if you will

The existence of the greenhouse effect was argued for by Joseph Fourier in 1824. The argument and the evidence was further strengthened by Claude Pouillet in 1827 and 1838, and reasoned from experimental observations by John Tyndall in 1859, and more fully quantified by Svante Arrhenius in 1896

182 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:45:13pm

re: #179 kirkspencer

wait. The article you cite says only that because of changes in observational methodology, short term (two day or less) storms should be ignored when measuring whether the storm rate has increased.

It does not say there has not been an increase in storms. It just shows that using short term storms may be flawed.

He's trying to force a conclusion to this study that simply isn't there. The study points out a discrepancy in "shorties" due to changes in observation since the late 1800s and up to 1965. Better to leave it to the actually authors.

Is the recorded increase in short‐duration North Atlantic tropical
storms spurious?

PDF

Conclusions

[13] In this study we have focused on North Atlantic tropical storms lasting 2 days or less (shorties) over the period 1878–2008, and examined whether their long‐term evolution (including an increase over the 20th century) is more likely associated with a climate signal or with changes in the observational system.

[14] We have used a combination of statistical methods and physical reasoning to further support the idea that the observed increasing trend in the shorties from the 1940s is likely associated in large part with changes in the observational system. Based on a Poisson regression model over 1878–2008, only SOI and tropical mean SST are significant covariates in describing the frequency of shorties. Further, the statistical model is sensitive to the period over which it is trained, and tropical Atlantic SST is never retained. Based on our current understanding of the physical processes governing genesis and development of tropical storms in the North Atlantic basin, tropical Atlantic SST should have been an important covariate in describing the frequency of the shorties, but it is not identified as such in our analysis. In agreement with the results from the statistical model, maps of the correlation coefficient between SST and the shorties time series show that North Atlantic SST is not strongly related to the temporal variability of the shorties.

Continues.

183 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:45:42pm

re: #182 Gus

He's trying to force a conclusion to this study that simply isn't there. The study points out a discrepancy in "shorties" due to changes in observation since the late 1800s and up to 1965. Better to leave it to the actually authors.

Is the recorded increase in short‐duration North Atlantic tropical
storms spurious?

PDF

Continues.

...

[15] Based on all of these analyses, we are unable to find evidence against the interpretation of the long‐term change of the shorties as having a very substantial non climaterelated component due to data quality issues. We note that our analysis does not rule out that shorties may have exhibited climatically driven variation and change, including a possible nominally positive trend over portions of the 20th century [e.g., Emanuel, 2010] or regions of the Atlantic [e.g., Kossin et al., 2010]. However, based on our results, it appears that the long‐term record of the basin‐wide shorties is sufficiently contaminated by spurious components to mask any climatically induced variation within the raw data. Moreover, based on these results and those of Vecchi and Knutson [2008] it is unlikely that a homogeneous record of Atlantic tropical storm counts would contain a statistically significant positive trend since the late 1800s.

Our results provide a context for interpreting studies exploring trend behavior in the North Atlantic tropical storm activity starting prior to the 1940s. In particular, the conclusions of certain studies reporting large secular increases in North Atlantic tropical storm activity in which shorties are included [e.g., Holland and Webster, 2007; Mann et al., 2007] could be affected by what we interpret as likely spurious nonphysical trends unless an alternative physical explanation can be uncovered for the pronounced increase in shorties starting from the middle of the 20th century. Further, statistical models of tropical storm activity built using century‐scale records that include shorties [e.g., Mann et al., 2007; Sabbateliand Mann, 2007; Mann et al., 2009] likely include an element reflecting the spurious shorties in the record.

184 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:54:37pm

From two of the same authors of the study. Read:

Study suggests more intense hurricanes in coming decades
Posted on December 2, 2012 by Bob Berwyn

SUMMIT COUNTY — The combination of more atmospheric carbon dioxide and less particulate pollution could result in a steady increase in the intensity of North Atlantic hurricanes, according University of Iowa researcher Gabriele Villarini, an assistant professor of civil and environmental engineering

The study is a compilation of results from some of the best available climate computer models of climate, said Villarini, who is also an assistant research engineer at IIHR-Hydroscience & Engineering. Villarini conducted the study with Gabriel Vecchi of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

“We wanted to conduct the study because intense tropical cyclones can harm people and property,” said Villarini. “The adverse and long-lasting influence of such storms recently was demonstrated by the damage Hurricane Sandy created along the East Coast.”

The study itself examines projected changes in the North Atlantic Power Dissipation Index (PDI) using output from 17 state-of-the-art global climate models and three different potential scenarios. The PDI is an index that integrates storm intensity, duration, and frequency.

“We found that the PDI is projected to increase in the 21st century in response to both greenhouse gas increases and reductions in particulate pollution over the Atlantic over the current century,” Villarini said. “By relating these results to other findings in a paper we published May 13, 2012 in the journal Nature Climate Change, we found that, while the number of storms is not projected to increase, their intensity is,” he said.

“Moreover, our results indicate that as more carbon dioxide is emitted, the stronger the storms get, while scenarios with the most aggressive carbon dioxide mitigation show the smallest increase in intensity,” he said.

The study was published in an early online release in the prestigious Journal of Climate, the official publication of the American Meteorological Society. The complete manuscript, “Projected Increases in North Atlantic Tropical Cyclone Intensity from CMIP5 Models,” can be viewed at: journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JCLI-D-12-00441.1.

Link to study: [Link: www.gfdl.noaa.gov...]

185 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 8:55:18pm

re: #173 slimething

For those who may not know (sarc/off), there were no satellites during the 1930's, and storm counts were spuriously low until the technology improved in later decades. As was already posted, the tropical storm count is biased for the second half of the 20th century because of that. This is also true of tornadoes and storms in general.

Kronocide, try again. Of course like any published material it could be wrong, but sometimes the obvious must be pointed out.

You need to try again and give up the strawmannage. This shit doesn't fly here.

This whole kerfuffle is founded upon a concept brought forth by Morono, merely an iteration of the same tactic: the record can't be trusted.

You focus on a study reviewing '... short-duration North Atlantic tropical storms.' The implication is there is a bias towards more storm activity since detection systems improved. Welcome to science, accepting of evidence, pointing to statistical bias.

The logical failure is using that reinforcing dynamic ensuring the reliability of that data to fault that process as being unreliable.

The data doesn't exist, therefore the existing data is crap.

This does not prove there wasn't more 2 day storm activity. This doesn't address larger storms of longer cycle that were recordable because they affected great swaths of land and peoples.

But let's look at the links I provided and the actual record of storms, all of them, after the data gathering improved. It shows a trend.

186 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 9:29:00pm

re: #173 slimething

Since Warmology is all about everything "global", based on the available data at [Link: policlimate.com...] would someone care to point where the data suggests there is an upward trend in tropical storm frequency since 1970, the satellite era?

Image: frequency_12months.png

Where did this data come from? Dr Ryan Maue compiled the data... from where? Actual scientists note where their data came from, how it was collected. But no this graph. It's just a graph from a PhD.

Who is this dude?


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