TwitterFacebook

Marc Morano: Courting Mendacity

The false claim that human-generated CO2 is not enough to cause climate change
Science • Views: 31,636

A few days ago LGF and I got into a bit of a squabble with renowned climate change denier Marc Morano over an error I made concerning his “debate” with Bill Nye. I wrote that he used a talking point often trotted out by the denialists (and found on Morano’s site in several places), during that debate. He didn’t say it. At least during the debate.

He does, however, use that particular talking point on his fount of misinformation, ClimateDepot.com, here and here.

Although Morano did not use that talking point in this “debate,” and complained bitterly about my claim that he had, (no doubt to direct attention away from the substance of my post) he did throw out quite a few other howlers.

MORANO: There are quite literally hundreds of factors that influence global temperature, everything from tilt of the earth’s axis to ocean cycles to water vapor, methane, solar system, the sun, cloud feedback, volcanic dust. The idea that CO2 is the tail that wags the dog is not supportable.

And if you go down and look at the scientific literature, we are finding reams of data. And new peer-reviewed study showing the Medieval and Roman warming periods as warm or warmer than today without our CO2 emissions. So what’s happened here is the whole movement, because now we’ve gone 16 years without global warming, according to the U.N. data [from UK Met Office], and they’ve now morphed into extreme weather.

And we have the absurd spectacle of people claiming that acts of Congress and United Nations can control the weather and make hurricanes less nasty and make tornadoes less frequent, which by the way none of them are showing any trends at all that are unusual.

MORANO: CO2 is rising. No one is disputing that. What Bill Nye just did was waste everyone’s time explaining that CO2 is rising. The question is what impact does CO2 have on the weather, what impact the CO2 have on climate change. And that, as we you look at the geologic records, we’ve had warmer periods where it’s been — with higher — with lower CO2 and we’ve had colder periods with higher CO2. And you have to go way back for some of that but the bottom line is hundreds of factors are dictating our climate.

The Medieval Warm Period was both southern and northern hemisphere. On my Web site there’s literally — it demolishes the idea of a hockey stick, new peer-reviewed study, so the idea that Bill Nye is just going around saying CO2 is up, therefore global warming is dangerous, we should be concerned, it’s not. It’s not dangerous. The bottom line is all these factors dwarfs the effects of CO2.

MORANO: No. You go to the peer-reviewed literature. You’re looking at anecdotal evidence. This is now the level of your daily horoscope. Basically global warmists like Bill Nye say global warming will cause many bad weather events and guess what? Bad weather events happen all the time so people look and they say look, there’s more proof, there’s a bad weather event.

Bottom line, big tornadoes, F-3 and larger since 1950s have dropped dramatically. Bottom line, we’ve gone the longest period without a major U.S. category 3 or larger hurricane hitting the U.S. since 1900, maybe the civil war.

Bottom line, new study in the journal “Nature,” peer-reviewed, no change in U.S. drought in the last 60 years. Bottom line, a new study out shows that drought has not changed in 85 to Hundred and 26 years.

2010 tied for “hottest” year? It is “purely a political statement.” Even NASA’s James Hansen admits it is “not particularly important.”

MORANO: Why it’s the wrong argument? Because every proposal ever done including the United Nations Kyoto Protocol would not even detectibly impact the temperatures assuming you buy into their science. What we’re talking about —

MORANO: We’re talking about a climate bill in the United States. President Obama was going around telling people it will keep the planet four or five degrees cooler for our grandchildren. His own EPA said it wouldn’t affect global CO2 levels let alone temperature. And if you actually do —

MORANO: Right now the developing world is getting 1,000 plus coal plants, there are 1.3 billion people don’t have running water and electricity. If we actually go the route of trying to stop carbon- based energy which has been their lifeline, which would lower infant mortality and long life expectancy, it would be the most immoral position you can take. So the bottom line is even if the skeptics are wrong the solutions that the global warming alarmists have proposed would have no detectible impact on climate.

MORANO: These predictions of Bill is based on climate models that violate 81 one out of 87 of the basic principles of forecasting.

MORANO: Doing nothing — first of all the United States did nothing, our CO2 emissions are dropping as we move to fracking away from coal through technology so the idea of nothing — there’s nothing to do. The idea of — there’s no way you can solve a nonproblem. Sea level has been rising since the end of the last ice age. There’s no acceleration. The Dutch Meteorological Institute said there’s no acceleration. You can look at the data, the land base data.

[Quoted from the transcript]

Since Morano decided to redirect the focus to LGF instead of to the substance of my post, I thought I’d look at a few of the obviously false or misleading comments he did make during that debate.

Throughout Morano’s comments you’ll find a common thread, the use of an obviously true statement coupled with some informational slight of hand. Today I’ll look at his first blatant bit of misinformation, a combination of the obvious and a straw man - CO2 is too small a factor to affect climate.

“There are quite literally hundreds of factors that influence global temperature, everything from tilt of the earth’s axis to ocean cycles to water vapor, methane, solar system, the sun, cloud feedback, volcanic dust. The idea that CO2 is the tail that wags the dog is not supportable.”

There are indeed hundreds of factors influencing global temperatures, including CO2 and methane, both of which are classed as Green House Gases (GHG) meaning they slow the passage of radiant energy through the atmosphere by changing the direction of transmission and by transferring energy to other molecules through conduction.

When he talks about the tilt of the Earth’s axis, he’s referring to the Milankovich Cycles which have been used to explain the cycle of ice ages (glaciation) seen in the geological record. The combination of the 41,000 year axial tilt cycle (Obliquity), shape of the orbit (how out of round it is (Eccentricity)) and the 22,000 year orbital precession (the timing of orbital perihelion) cycle determine the points of warming and cooling which start and stop the interglacial warm periods. Cool summers trend to glaciation period, warm summers trend to interglaciation periods. (more about where we are and where we’re going, orbitally speaking, in a later post)

Related to this is the amount of energy being produced by the sun. The more energy it produces, the more energy hits the earth unless it is reflected away. The average energy from the sun hitting the atmosphere is 1366 W/m2 with an 11 year variance of about 1.2 W/m2. If sun activity was the main reason for climate warming, there would be a correlation between average temperature and energy variance. There isn’t one.

The average temperatures have been stable from 1998 til today, yet since 1998 there has been a full solar cycle.

The ability of earth to reflect solar energy is its reflection coefficient or albedo. Most important in the earth’s albedo are snow cover and cloud cover.

Water vapour and cloud feedback both affect and are affected by climate change. However, cloud cover and atmosphere vapour content cycle about a mean value that doesn’t change appreciably without being forced to do so by an external force. Using them as an explanation for current temperature trends ignores the source of their formation, therefore they can’t be used to marginalize the effects of basic climate forcings like GHGs and the sun.

The same is true of oceanic currents. The amount of energy contained by the oceans affects the horizontal temperature gradients which in turn affects the vertical transport of warm or cold water. The most well known example of this is the El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) cycle. Introducing cold fresh water to the ocean’s warm salty water also changes heat transport.

An important point to take from this is that the ocean energy balance is affected not just by the amount of energy entering the earth system but by the amount leaving the system. The ocean by itself is not a climate forcing, it can affect weather, but it can’t contribute to the global climate system without an external forcing initiating change.

That leaves one thing capable of contributing to global warming - a process that reduces the amount of heat energy leaving the atmosphere. Since the earth’s energy balance remains stable without a change in an external forcing such as solar insolence (due to changes in the sun’s output or orbital changes) or an internal process turned into a forcing by some change and we see neither Milankovitch cycles, nor the sun itself are in a position to do that, we have to look to an internal change.

Only CO2 fits that need.

Also see:
Marc Morano - SourceWatch

Jump to bottom

63 comments

1 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:26:04pm

Another great post! I added the video of the debate so people can get a real sense of what Morano does.

2 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:33:51pm

Wow, another post promoted. Thanks Charles.

3 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:39:32pm

Marc Morano in the Alex Jones conspiracy circus:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

4 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:40:34pm

Wow, such a big pile of lies it's monumental, piled higher than the Himalayas. Each one is easily refuted, but he just keeps shouting them out so nobody has time.

5 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:41:28pm

For reference: Gish Gallop:

The Gish Gallop, named after creationist Duane Gish, is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood in real time. The term was coined by Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education. Sam Harris describes the technique as "starting 10 fires in 10 minutes."

The formal debating jargon term for this is spreading.[1] It arose as a way to throw as much rubbish into five minutes as possible. In response, some debate judges now limit number of arguments as well as time. However, in places where debating judges aren't there to call bullshit on the practice, like the internet, such techniques are remarkably common.

6 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:41:29pm

Every one of his "facts" rely on the single exception...

7 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:43:45pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

It's really somewhat disgusting that CNN is giving someone who has zero credibility a stump to shout from. Let him stay on the kookspiracy and chemtrail channels in the future.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:47:16pm

re: #7 Randall Gross

It's really somewhat disgusting that CNN is giving someone who has zero credibility a stump to shout from. Let him stay on the kookspiracy and chemtrail channels in the future.

Maybe they figure that debates like this will allow CNN to occupy a middle ground between FNC and MSNBC.

9 recusancy  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:52:08pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Maybe they figure that debates like this will allow CNN to occupy a middle ground between FNC and MSNBC.

How is this a middle ground?

10 jaunte  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:52:31pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

CNN could break some new ground not just by being "in the middle" of Bill Nye and Marc Morano, but by explaining the Gish Gallop tactic to their viewers.

11 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:56:06pm

re: #10 jaunte

CNN could break some new ground not just by being "in the middle" of Bill Nye and Marc Morano, but by explaining the Gish Gallop tactic to their viewers.

That would win them charges of "media bias", accusations of which they are trying to avoid.

12 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:56:51pm

re: #10 jaunte

CNN could break some new ground not just by being "in the middle" of Bill Nye and Marc Morano, but by explaining the Gish Gallop tactic to their viewers.

Oh THIS

That's the kind of depth we really do need from our news media.

13 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:58:08pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

That would win them charges of "media bias", accusations of which they are trying to avoid.

And how's that working for them, since their ratings are in the toilet anyway?

14 dragonath  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 4:58:56pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

Revealing misleading debate tactics shouldn't be a partisan thing, unless you're trying to admit one side does this more than the other.

15 jaunte  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:00:23pm

re: #14 dragonath

One side (at least in Texas) is opposed to teaching critical thinking in school, so there's that.

16 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:01:37pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

CNN might be better served to carefully stand up to charges like that. The relative weight of evidence is a perfectly legit reason to admit or illustrate the side with better evidence.

If the topic was a serial killer and we had a prosecutor on one hand and a defense attorney on the other... and the defendant had been caught red handed. Why show 50/50 balance?

17 Gus  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:02:25pm

Remember that study the troll kept posting the abstract of in the previous AGW thread? Anyway, here is a quote on a different study by one of the authors.

“We found that the PDI is projected to increase in the 21st century in response to both greenhouse gas increases and reductions in particulate pollution over the Atlantic over the current century,” Villarini said. “By relating these results to other findings in a paper we published May 13, 2012 in the journal Nature Climate Change, we found that, while the number of storms is not projected to increase, their intensity is,” he said.

“Moreover, our results indicate that as more carbon dioxide is emitted, the stronger the storms get, while scenarios with the most aggressive carbon dioxide mitigation show the smallest increase in intensity,” he said.

More here.

18 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:02:46pm

re: #16 Political Atheist

CNN might be better served to carefully stand up to charges like that. The relative weight of evidence is a perfectly legit reason to admit or illustrate the side with better evidence.

If the topic was a serial killer and we had a prosecutor on one hand and a defense attorney on the other... and the defendant had been caught red handed. Why show 50/50 balance?

Better still, should CNN invite holocaust deniers next time they do a show about WWII?

Both sides!!1! Balance!!1!

9_9

19 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:05:37pm

re: #16 Political Atheist

CNN might be better served to carefully stand up to charges like that. The relative weight of evidence is a perfectly legit reason to admit or illustrate the side with better evidence.

If the topic was a serial killer and we had a prosecutor on one hand and a defense attorney on the other... and the defendant had been caught red handed. Why show 50/50 balance?

The problem is that from a business standpoint standing up to such charges is often a loser, since people who here things from a TV channel that they don't want to hear tend to react by changing the channel. And the objective is to keep them watching in order to justify charging higher rates to advertisers.

20 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:09:17pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

And the objective is to keep them watching in order to justify charging higher rates to advertisers.

It doesn't have to be.

21 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:09:42pm

re: #13 Interesting Times

And how's that working for them, since their ratings are in the toilet anyway?

I hate this, but chasing ratings all too often seems to mean going far right and or sensationalist. Ugh. My favorite approach to news is that slightly skeptical preset at all times. Without the corporate division tie ins like CBS pretending events on Survivor are news. BBC kinda has this. CBS did back in the b&w TV days. Ancient history I guess.

22 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:11:03pm

re: #20 Obdicut

It doesn't have to be.

Then what would you suggest as their business model? In answering, remember that cable/satellite news networks exist to make money for their owners.

23 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:12:26pm

re: #21 Political Atheist

CBS did back in the b&w TV days. Ancient history I guess.

I would sit in front of my uncles TV (1st one in the neighborhood) eyes glued to the screen till a show came on

Image: rca_test_pattern.jpg

24 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:12:31pm

In the infancy of mass communications, the Columbus and Magellan of broadcast journalism, William Paley and David Sarnoff, went down to Washington to cut a deal with Congress. Congress would allow the fledgling networks free use of taxpayer-owned airwaves in exchange for one public service. That public service would be one hour of air time set aside every night for informational broadcasting, or what we now call the evening news. Congress, unable to anticipate the enormous capacity television would have to deliver consumers to advertisers, failed to include in its deal the one requirement that would have changed our national discourse immeasurably for the better. Congress forgot to add that under no circumstances could there be paid advertising during informational broadcasting. They forgot to say that taxpayers will give you the airwaves for free and for 23 hours a day you should make a profit, but for one hour a night you work for us. And now those network newscasts, anchored through history by honest-to-God newsmen with names like Murrow and Reasoner and Huntley and Brinkley and Buckley and Cronkite and Rather and Russert - Now they have to compete with the likes of me. A cable anchor who's in the exact same business as the producers of Jersey Shore.

25 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:13:02pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

Then what would you suggest as their business model? In answering, remember that cable/satellite news networks exist to make money for their owners.

They don't have to.

Or rather, that doesn't have to be their only goal.

26 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:14:44pm

re: #25 Obdicut

What are you suggesting? Got me curious. PBS?

27 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:15:22pm

re: #17 Gus

Remember that study the troll kept posting the abstract of in the previous AGW thread? Anyway, here is a quote on a different study by one of the authors.

More here.

To be honest, this is why I never look them up any more when a denier troll posts scientific sources. They're almost always either wrong or deliberately misrepresented; I think the trolls do it just to see the "warmists" jump.

28 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:15:25pm

I like Bill Nye the Science guy but this debate should have not happened.
I don't blame CNN I blame Bill. Why?
Bill is a sweet teacher.. Like a 5th grade science teacher on TV.
I consider him the Mr. Rogers of science and don't want to see him lose his brand after so many years.
Bill: Don't crawl into the pit with the vipers of the RW. It's not worth it.
Call Dr. Phil Platt or Dr. Pamela Gay to sit in for you. They would wipe the floor with deniers

29 jaunte  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:16:00pm

The Answer to CNN’s Branding Woes (Hint: It’s Not Reality TV)

"If CNN can prove that it truly does present both sides of the news, then it not only fills that vacuum, but it gives the people what they want. Plus, this doesn’t require a total brand overhaul; it involves CNN returning to its roots and original mission. This is what I’ve gathered from perusing different websites: people don’t want a new CNN; they want the old, objective, non-talking-head-infiltrated CNN."

Unfortunately, I think Jeff Zucker is going to make things worse by vigorously going in the opposite direction.

30 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:19:09pm

For reference: Marc Morano - SourceWatch:

Until spring of 2009, Morano served as communications director for the Republicans on the U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. Morano commenced work with the committee under anti-science Senator James Inhofe, who was majority chairman of the committee until January 2007 and is now minority ranking member. In December 2006 Morano launched a blog on the committee's website that largely promotes the views of climate change skeptics.

Morano was a journalist with Cybercast News Service (CNS), which is owned by the conservative Media Research Center. CNS and Morano were the first source in May 2004 of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claims against John Kerry in the 2004 presidential election[3] and in January 2006 of similar smears against Vietnam war veteran John Murtha.

Morano was "previously known as Rush Limbaugh's 'Man in Washington,' as reporter and producer for the Rush Limbaugh Television Show, as well as a former correspondent and producer for American Investigator, the nationally syndicated TV newsmagazine." ...

Morano was hired in Spring 2006 as the Director of Communications to US Senator James Inhofe (R-OK). Senator Inhofe is a member and the former Chair of the Senate Committee for the Environment and Public Works, and has compared Tom Brokaw's climate change documentary to the "Big Lie," a Third Reich propaganda technique. Inhofe also claimed that "if we were to embrace the Kyoto treaty [on climate change], it would shut down agriculture, military and oil production in Oklahoma..." [9]

Many believe that is it Morano who has been behind Inhofe's latest attacks on the scientific theory of man made climate change [10], and this was confirmed by an appearance of Morano at the 2006 Society of Environmental Journalists, where Morano was on a climate change panel with Andrew Revkin (New York Times) and Bill Blakemore (ABC News).

31 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:26:14pm

re: #28 A Man for all Seasons

I like Bill Nye the Science guy but this debate should have not happened.
I don't blame CNN I blame Bill. Why?
Bill is a sweet teacher.. Like a 5th grade science teacher on TV.
I consider him the Mr. Rogers of science and don't want to see him lose his brand after so many years.
Bill: Don't crawl into the pit with the vipers of the RW. It's not worth it.
Call Dr. Phil Platt or Dr. Pamela Gay to sit in for you. They would wipe the floor with deniers

They need to contact the NCSE and have somebody from there debate the denialists.

32 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:27:29pm

re: #29 jaunte

The Answer to CNN’s Branding Woes (Hint: It’s Not Reality TV)

Unfortunately, I think Jeff Zucker is going to make things worse by vigorously going in the opposite direction.

Absolutely

His background is in entertainment, not news (even though from '03 till '05 he held the title of president of NBC's Entertainment's News & Cable Group, the "news" part of that was due more to the news/ entertainment shows such as The Today Show)

33 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:32:08pm

re: #29 jaunte

they want the old, objective, non-talking-head-infiltrated CNN."
Ted Turner is tanned, rested and ready!!!

//

34 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:39:15pm

re: #28 A Man for all Seasons

I don't really blame Bill Nye myself. I don't know if he had ever heard of Morano before, but it looked like Nye wasn't ready for Morano's manic hyper-aggressive attitude.

The real problem is not that Bill Nye was steam-rolled, it's that dishonest clowns like Morano are presented as experts by the media. This is why Piers Morgan sucks. He does this all the time; he was also a booster of Andrew Breitbart.

35 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:39:19pm

The climate change issue has another problem that is no fault of it's own.
This is it. End of world prediction timeline

I realize most of that was easily dismissed religious or superstitious crap. If everyone else made the same realization this would not be a problem.
That "cry wolf" barrier has to be crashed. The deniers have to be disproved top to bottom on the voter information scale. Tough damn job. To well educated intelligent people that read up it's obvious. The rest have the deniers and histories famous wrong prediction moments to get past.

Our science needs the best marketing, sad as that is.

36 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:45:09pm

re: #35 Political Atheist

Our science needs the best marketing, sad as that is

You're actually on to something there

There are marketing geniuses in this country. I'm sure many of them are also (as seems to be the new term) "warmists". The gov't could/ should recruit them for some ideas

37 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:46:23pm

re: #34 Charles Johnson

Our President by his own admission had a bad night in his first debate. It happens to the best, and truly takes nothing from their credibility. Perhaps this will be similar. Next time Bill will have a good night. He might not be the best guy for a soundbite session. Al Gore would have taken this guy apart.

38 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:48:33pm
slightsleight of hand

/pedant

39 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:54:54pm

If you haven't taken the time to watch the video in freetoken's post. This Sunday evening is a good time to do so.

40 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 5:56:02pm

re: #37 Political Atheist

Our President by his own admission had a bad night in his first debate. It happens to the best, and truly takes nothing from their credibility. Perhaps this will be similar. Next time Bill will have a good night. He might not be the best guy for a soundbite session. Al Gore would have taken this guy apart.

Yes, but to face Gore the deniers have already said they'd send "Lord" Monckton , and he's a good bit harder to beat.

41 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:01:33pm

re: #36 sattv4u2

Absolutely agree with this. I have been wondering for a while why the government doesn't recruit better PR people for many things including science.

42 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:05:05pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

Is Lord Monckton like a real Lord or more like a Lord as in 'Lord of the Dance' Lord?

43 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:11:35pm

re: #42 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'

Is Lord Monckton like a real Lord or more like a Lord as in 'Lord of the Dance' Lord?

He was once part of the House of Lords, but isn't anymore. He does speak "House of Lords English" (this meaning the 'high' English so beloved by Professor Higgins), though, and can use language fairly effectively as a weapon.

44 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:11:57pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but to face Gore the deniers have already said they'd send "Lord" Monckton , and he's a good bit harder to beat.

Because of the British accent?

45 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:16:57pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

I hate to think climate changes brightest minds would not do well against the shills. Ludwig and I wrangled over this a bit, when I made a case for some marketing/info distribution firms to build a case he was not thrilled. A point I still think would help is the quality of life argument for low/no emission energy technologies. Again it's sad to say but the personal immediate benefit argument needs to be there along with the long term. By reputation scientists are kinda marketing challenged. The truth needs Madison avenue.

Beyond the developed world is another big problem-Bring low emission tech to places that use wood and coal to cook and heat. A couple billion people live with that tech. It's a lot of the most dangerous emissions.

46 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 6:17:36pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Because of the British accent?

No, its because he's fast and aggressive in a debate. He tries to put his opponent off balance and keep them there. That sort of up-tempo tactic can be beaten, though. if you're properly prepared for it. You'd be able to overcome it, Charles.

47 kerFuFFler  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:02:28pm

Although I think honest and open minded people would have to agree that current data strongly indicates global warming, it might be more practical to focus on a different environmental problem driven by CO2, namely the acidification of the oceans. This issue is simpler to understand and does not depend on such complex models. There can be NO debate that the oceans are becoming more acidic due to the increased levels of CO2. (CO2 is what makes Coca-Cola fizzy and acidic.) This acidity is destroying coral reefs and a whole host of sea creatures that are key to the oceans' many ecosystems. (Many organisms have calcium-based shells that are weakened or dissolved by the acidity.) The acidity is changing much faster than the systems can evolve, so mass extinctions of oceanic life loom large. The health of all our ecosystems (and our own futures) depend on the health of the oceans.

It's time to get our act together. Now.

48 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:11:32pm

On Monckton:

His claim to Lordship is as tenuous as his arguments iirc.

49 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:13:33pm

Peter Sinclair on Monckton

50 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:27:20pm

re: #26 Political Atheist

What are you suggesting? Got me curious. PBS?

It's a myth that corporations have to have profitability as their main goal. They can have whatever they want. Lots of companies have a pledge of social responsibility in their charter.

51 slimething  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:35:47pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

The "study" you posted is based on climate models which are not evidence for anything.

[Link: pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com...]
The ‘too few, too bright’ tropical low-cloud problem in CMIP5 models

Reality of SST vs climate models
[Link: bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com...]

Listing the errors and faulty assumptions of climate models would take more space than this blog allows :)

As for the OP, small changes in cloud cover can account for virtually all warming and cooling. Has that been ruled out? Why no it hasn't because climate models cannot simulate clouds correctly, which no doubt everyone here knows that.
How well do climate models simulate cloud vertical structure? A comparison between CALIPSO-GOCCP satellite observations and CMIP5 models

If there is evidence the contrary, please respond immediately.

It is a tragedy global warming stopped 16 years ago isn't it?

52 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:44:45pm

Durr hurr, I get my climate science from trashy British tabloids and they tell me warming stopped 16 years ago!!11! Derp.

Meanwhile, in objective reality world...

53 kerFuFFler  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:45:28pm

re: #51 slimething

"... it might be more practical to focus on a different environmental problem driven by CO2, namely the acidification of the oceans. This issue is simpler to understand and does not depend on such complex models. There can be NO debate that the oceans are becoming more acidic due to the increased levels of CO2. (CO2 is what makes Coca-Cola fizzy and acidic.) This acidity is destroying coral reefs and a whole host of sea creatures that are key to the oceans' many ecosystems. (Many organisms have calcium-based shells that are weakened or dissolved by the acidity.) The acidity is changing much faster than the systems can evolve, so mass extinctions of oceanic life loom large."

54 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:46:06pm

re: #51 slimething

The "study" you posted is based on climate models which are not evidence for anything.

[Link: pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com...]
The ‘too few, too bright’ tropical low-cloud problem in CMIP5 models

Reality of SST vs climate models
[Link: bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com...]

Listing the errors and faulty assumptions of climate models would take more space than this blog allows :)

As for the OP, small changes in cloud cover can account for virtually all warming and cooling. Has that been ruled out? Why no it hasn't because climate models cannot simulate clouds correctly, which no doubt everyone here knows that.
How well do climate models simulate cloud vertical structure? A comparison between CALIPSO-GOCCP satellite observations and CMIP5 models

If there is evidence the contrary, please respond immediately.

It is a tragedy global warming stopped 16 years ago isn't it?

if you want to debate, answer my question

otherwise you aren't debating, you're taking a dump and then hiding under the bed

55 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 7:50:10pm

re: #51 slimething

I'm more curious about your belief that President Obama's birth certificate is a fake. Care to elaborate on that?

56 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 8:06:32pm

re: #51 slimething

It is a tragedy global warming stopped 16 years ago isn't it?

The real tragedy is that those BS stats you posted are actually believed by some people.

57 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 8:25:21pm

Another dump and run job from the Alex Jones fan.

58 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 8:30:12pm

re: #45 Political Atheist

I hate to think climate changes brightest minds would not do well against the shills. Ludwig and I wrangled over this a bit, when I made a case for some marketing/info distribution firms to build a case he was not thrilled. A point I still think would help is the quality of life argument for low/no emission energy technologies. Again it's sad to say but the personal immediate benefit argument needs to be there along with the long term. By reputation scientists are kinda marketing challenged. The truth needs Madison avenue.

Beyond the developed world is another big problem-Bring low emission tech to places that use wood and coal to cook and heat. A couple billion people live with that tech. It's a lot of the most dangerous emissions.

There are simple, cheap, effective devices that get a lot more cooking done with a lot less fuel. How you get these into a billion homes is the tough part. But LED lighting, and cell phones, are already big hits in poor regions, so it should be possible.

To make wind and solar grid electricity immediately attractive, the efficiencies just have to be improved. We are forging ahead, but we need one or two more doublings of kwh s per dollar before either can go head to head with coal, with co2 treated as an externality.

We should tax co2, or subsidize green, but we cannot force India and China to follow suit. And we cannot go 80% green ourselves without either that tech gain, or tons of money diverted somehow out of an already shaky budget.

59 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 8:30:36pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

Another dump and run job from the Alex Jones fan.

Yes, but isn't "slimething" just the perfect name for a troll?

60 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 8:36:56pm

re: #51 slimething

The "study" you posted is based on climate models which are not evidence for anything.

[Link: pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com...]
The ‘too few, too bright’ tropical low-cloud problem in CMIP5 models

Reality of SST vs climate models
[Link: bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com...]

Listing the errors and faulty assumptions of climate models would take more space than this blog allows :)

As for the OP, small changes in cloud cover can account for virtually all warming and cooling. Has that been ruled out? Why no it hasn't because climate models cannot simulate clouds correctly, which no doubt everyone here knows that.
How well do climate models simulate cloud vertical structure? A comparison between CALIPSO-GOCCP satellite observations and CMIP5 models

If there is evidence the contrary, please respond immediately.

It is a tragedy global warming stopped 16 years ago isn't it?

Oh, there is plenty of evidence. But your argument that global warming stopped 16 yrs ago is lame. Consider roulette. The house has an edge. But the gambler can almost always look back and console himself that ten, or 16, or 23, spins ago, he was in the hole worse.

Same thing here. The house edge is rising co2 . The temperature rise is the house winnings to date. You are the gambler, and you're losing the farm.

61 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 9, 2012 10:09:59pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

That would win them charges of "media bias", accusations of which they are trying to avoid.

The bias is giving Morano a position of equal merit to Nye's.

62 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 10:08:28am

I just watched the whole thing.

Morano doesn't merely talk fast and deliver a Gish Gallop: it's more of a Gish Sprint.

63 otoc  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 2:08:07am

re: #62 Kronocide

More like the gish tumble to me. Take multiple strands of arguments and spin...
Link

Shame on CNN for not containing the situation. It was a no win situation for Nye, which I assume was the intent, as usual, on this topic.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

TwitterFacebook

Turn off all ads for a full year by subscribing!
For about 33 cents a day (per month) or 22 cents a day (per year), our subscription option turns off all advertisements at LGF!
Read more...

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form
LGF Pages

This button leads to the main index of LGF Pages, our user-submitted articles. You can post your own LGF Pages simply by registering a free account with us.

Create a Page

This is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.

Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.

Last updated: 2014-03-07 2:19 pm PST

LGF User's Guide
Recent Pages
Randall Gross
The Abortion Ship
Rebecca Gomperts is a Dutch doctor who pushes the limits of abortion law. In this excerpt from Diana Whitten's documentary "Vessel," Gomperts creates a mobile clinic aboard a ship. Produced by: Diana Whitten Read the story here: nyti.ms Subscribe ...

12 hours, 1 minute ago
Views: 148 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
FemNaziBitch
Roger Goodell: ‘I Didn’t Get It Right.’ -NFL TAKES A NEW STANCE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell admits he was wrong on the Ray Rice decision, and Goodell took an important step Thursday towards showing the league is serious about cracking down on domestic violence as well as sexual assault. In a ...

17 hours, 39 minutes ago
Views: 120 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
sagehen
Doctor Who Spoiler Thread
For those who want to post immediately... live... without having to hide spoilers behind the button.

6 days, 7 hours ago
Views: 615 • Comments: 99
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 6
EiMitch
Escapist: Maniac Cop
escapistmagazine.com Link broken? The gist is that this is an impressively sarcastic review of an old slasher flick based on the "unrealistic" premise of a cop abusing his power to murder people.

1 week ago
Views: 442 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1
Hyped Up On Ganja
Hunt for German neo-Nazis was ‘complete disaster’
BERLIN (AP) -- Police and security services in Germany's eastern state of Thuringia bungled the hunt for three neo-Nazis, who years later turned out to be the main suspects in a far-right murder spree. Story

1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 647 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 3
Rightwingconspirator
A Lizard’s Regenerating Tail
Don't ya hate it when that happens? You feel so short for a month. Anoles are curious little lizards capable of ditching their tails when they feel threatened. This self-amputation, called autotomy, takes about 25 days for the tail to ...

1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 467 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5
CriticalDragon1177
Io9 - Everything You Need To Know About Lemuria, The Lost Continent Of Lemurs
Esther Inglis-Arkell talks about the weirdest lost continent myth, I've ever heard. Its the only one I know of that ever included giant telepathic lemurs. No seriously! In 1858 a young zoologist, playing around with an idea, came up with ...

1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 632 • Comments: 4
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 6
Laughing Gas
Scumbag “HBD believer” claims Michael Brown charged officer
WARNING: LINK TO HATE SITE He links to some ijreview, a right wing site: This guy makes me sick.

1 week, 4 days ago
Views: 1,468 • Comments: 6
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 1
 Frank says:

Star Wars won't work. Star Wars won't work. The gas still gets through; it could get right on you. And what about those germs, now? Star Wars won't work.