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Breaking: Mass Shooting at Oregon’s Clackamas Mall

Crime • Views: 22,857

katu.com in Oregon has a live video feed — there are at least two people confirmed dead in a shooting at the Clackamas Town Center Mall: Live News Stream.

Witnesses described a teenage gunman wearing a white mask with some kind of body armor, maybe a vest, and an assault rifle. Up to 60 shots were reported fired inside the mall’s food court. It’s unclear right now how many gunmen may be involved; some witnesses say there are several.

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390 comments

1 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:27:08pm
2 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:27:22pm

Crap, not again.

3 JRCMYP  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:27:57pm

Why does this happen so much--or at all?

4 Alexzander  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:28:33pm

I doubt the shooter is dead as the guy interviewed on KATU mentioned seeing the two fatalities and I think he would have indicated something along those lines.

5 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:29:59pm

re: #4 Alexzander

I doubt the shooter is dead as the guy interviewed on KATU mentioned seeing the two fatalities and I think he would have indicated something along those lines.

KATU interviewed the guy that saw two dead and put sheets over them. He would have mentioned it if one was the shooter.

6 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:30:15pm

re: #3 JRCMYP

Why does this happen so much--or at all?

Because some British colonists fought the British a few hundred years ago and so their political views are obviously sacrosanct today, and because there are crazy people in the world.

Bad combo.

7 Alexzander  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:32:00pm

re: #5 Gus

KATU interviewed the guy that saw two dead and put sheets over them. He would have mentioned it if one was the shooter.

Yeah that was what I was trying to say; thanks for doing so with 100 times more clarity.

8 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:34:16pm
9 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:35:13pm

And now comes the conga line of NRA spokespeople and conservative pundits to tell us that no matter how bad this seems, we can't even begin to consider new gun control regulations because it would be punishment against "responsible gun owners."

10 JAFO  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:35:34pm

Later, on Fox News, "Now is not the time to talk about gun violence."

11 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:35:35pm

The deaths of four Americans in Libya three months ago will get more Congressional attention next week than the deaths of at least three Americans in America.

12 Spocomptonite  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:36:54pm

I gotta admire someone who can be in a terrible situation like this, and still have a sense of humor about it.

13 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:38:43pm

re: #12 Spocomptonite

I gotta admire someone who can be in a terrible situation like this, and still have a sense of humor about it.

[Embedded content]

That takes guts. But its done well and doesn't come across as wrong.

14 Destro  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:38:46pm

re: #2 Kronocide

Crap, not again.

A normal American day. Why is anyone surprised? The nation averages 87 gun deaths each day.

15 Destro  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:39:47pm

re: #11 erik_t

The deaths of four Americans in Libya three months ago will get more Congressional attention next week than the deaths of at least three Americans in America.

The nation averages 87 gun deaths each day.

16 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:42:14pm

re: #15 Destro

The nation averages 87 gun deaths each day.

But does President Obama personally watch as those happen in real time?

/

17 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:43:14pm

I'm noticing our CAMERA-bot has posted an article about how the Wave of Islamophobia is a myth.

18 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:43:50pm

THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT GUNS, SO DON'T EVEN START!

19 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:43:58pm

The reporter on the live feed just said there will be a press briefing by officials in about 5 minutes.

20 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:44:01pm

re: #10 JAFO

Later, on Fox News, "Now is not the time to talk about gun violence."

Absolutely fucking A is the time to talk about gun violence. It's insanity to not to.

21 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:45:06pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I'm noticing our CAMERA-bot has posted an article about how the Wave of Islamophobia is a myth.

Downding it and ignore it.

BBIAB, dinner

22 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:48:04pm

If we could get Massachuesett's level caps on magazine size nationwide, that would help in mass shootings. I think calling that an "assault weapons" ban is not helpful though.

23 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:48:46pm

They're saying the shooter's been neutralized.

24 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:48:51pm

BIAB. Sorry to post and run.

25 Jimmah  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:49:20pm

Oh here's some good news///

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

A US court has struck down an Illinois law that bans the carrying of concealed guns, the last full ban remaining in the country.

26 Alexzander  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:49:50pm

re: #23 Four More Tears

They're saying the shooter's been neutralized.

Amazingly, he "doesn't have any more details" aka whether the person has been taken into custody or killed.

27 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:49:57pm

Worst police spokesman ever, why does it look like he is enjoying being on camera?

28 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:50:16pm

The usual criminally insane types, ie the right wing, are screaming "false flag" and accusing the "gun grabbers" of being overjoyed at this tragedy. No links necessary.

Obama is going to have to take some kind of action on gun control, even if it is only a gesture like the mostly useless Assault Weapons Ban. Owner licensing would help a lot, but real progress will require fundamental cultural change, a process that could take centuries.

29 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:50:52pm

If only we had more guns...

30 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:51:02pm

re: #28 Shiplord Kirel

The usual criminally insane types, ie the right wing, are screaming "false flag" and accusing the "gun grabbers" of being overjoyed at this tragedy. No links necessary.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

31 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:52:41pm

re: #22 uncah91

re: #25 Jimmah

The type of weapon, mode of carriage, etc etc etc really don't concern me all that much. To me, the problem is the belief that anyfuckingbody has the God-given right to possess a firearm regardless of their fitness mentally, emotionally and ethically, and that even attempting to have a conversation to the contrary is a Constitutional crisis of epic fucking proportions.

32 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:53:07pm

Not ruling out more than one shooter, but the sheriff doesn't think it likely.

33 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:53:11pm

re: #28 Shiplord Kirel

The usual criminally insane types, ie the right wing, are screaming "false flag" and accusing the "gun grabbers" of being overjoyed at this tragedy. No links necessary.

Obama is going to have to take some kind of action on gun control, even if it is only a gesture like the mostly useless Assault Weapons Ban. Owner licensing would help a lot, but real progress will require fundamental cultural change, a process that could take centuries.

The usual excuses are making the rounds, "Gun Free-Fire-Zone," whining about how they'll now be persecuted, and so forth.

34 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:54:10pm

If all he had were knives this would still have happened...

35 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:54:11pm

re: #3 JRCMYP

Why does this happen so much--or at all?

My take speaking as a Canadian that has been observing the U.S. for years?

It seems to me that in the U.S. violence is near the top of the list of methods to handle a problem for many people. At the same time there's a sense of powerlessness growing. Some people end up having to prove they are not powerless and other people suffer for it.

36 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:54:49pm

re: #3 JRCMYP

Why does this happen so much--or at all?

Because there see to be a few young men who unhinged and either undiagnosed or untreated.

37 Jimmah  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:55:29pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I'm noticing our CAMERA-bot has posted an article about how the Wave of Islamophobia is a myth.

They have nothing to fear but Islamorealism*

*(TM Shrieking Harpy LLC).

38 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:55:30pm

re: #36 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Because there see to be a few young men who unhinged and either undiagnosed or untreated.

And their access to firearms is unrestricted for the most part.

39 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:55:51pm
40 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:57:12pm

Any news on the legality of the guns used?

41 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:57:14pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I'm noticing our CAMERA-bot has posted an article about how the Wave of Islamophobia is a myth.

Oh brother.

42 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:57:32pm

re: #36 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Because there see to be a few young men who unhinged and either undiagnosed or untreated.

We have a society that worships guns, is reluctant to talk openly about mental illness, and a belief that the former two a matter of personal rights versus public safety.

In other words, a ticking time bomb.

43 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:57:44pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I'm noticing our CAMERA-bot has posted an article about how the Wave of Islamophobia is a myth.

Oh, fuck aigle in the ear.

44 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:58:31pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I'm noticing our CAMERA-bot has posted an article about how the Wave of Islamophobia is a myth.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

45 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:59:00pm

re: #38 Four More Tears

And their access to firearms is unrestricted for the most part.

Especially if you order online, in which you can be as mad as a hatter, but so long as you've got a valid credit card number and line of credit, then you're golden.

46 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:59:46pm

re: #45 Targetpractice

Especially if you order online, in which you can be as mad as a hatter, but so long as you've got a valid credit card number and line of credit, then you're golden.

I've got it! We'll just factor mental health into everyone's credit rating!

/

47 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:00:01pm

re: #44 Gus

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Of course the FBI doesn't have figures. They're still too involved in trying to figure out where General Petraeus has been sticking his dick in the past few years.

48 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:01:14pm

My only answer is the same as it is for everything else:

Education and Contraception

49 Jimmah  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:01:35pm

re: #44 Gus

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I'd answer it but my binary is a little rusty.

50 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:01:57pm

re: #47 Ghost of Tom Joad

Of course the FBI doesn't have figures. They're still too involved in trying to figure out where General Petraeus has been sticking his dick in the past few years.

Does the Pacific Ocean contain more water than my toilet bowl? Unless you measure them both, you don't really know!

51 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:03:32pm

re: #49 Jimmah

I'd answer it but my binary is a little rusty.

There were few anti-Muslim hate crimes in this country therefore your Islamophobia argument is invalid!

//

52 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:03:59pm

re: #50 erik_t

Does the Pacific Ocean contain more water than my toilet bowl? Unless you measure them both, you don't really know!

But don't you have to keep remeasuring them? Something to do with Schroeders cat?

:0

53 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:04:56pm

re: #52 Holidays are Family Fun Time

But don't you have to keep remeasuring them? Something to do with Schroeders cat?

:0

I hate it when they drink out of the toilet. Screws up our measuring system.

54 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:05:44pm

Betcha online shopping sees a spike tomorrow.

55 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:06:52pm

re: #54 Four More Tears

Betcha online shopping sees a spike tomorrow.

Oh, I'm sure that there will be plenty of gun shops who see a healthy increase in sales tomorrow. "They're gonna come for our guns now!!"

56 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:07:23pm

re: #55 Targetpractice

Oh, I'm sure that there will be plenty of gun shops who see a healthy increase in sales tomorrow. "They're gonna come for our guns now!!"

And THAT, me thinks is much of the problem.

57 Jimmah  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:07:36pm

I just remembered we've got some skull-jangling drilling outside the bedroom window starting around 8:00 am.

Night all!

58 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:08:09pm

There just isn't enough information out there yet about this tragedy. How horrible.

59 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:08:58pm

re: #55 Targetpractice

Oh, I'm sure that there will be plenty of gun shops who see a healthy increase in sales tomorrow. "They're gonna come for our guns now!!"

That will pretty much be the only thing to come out of it. You need to either arm yourself against the crazies (or government...) or get them before they ban sales. Same thing with the election of Obama. It all becomes propaganda to help drive sales and donation (LaPierre's gotta do something to drive that million-dollar salary).

60 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:10:04pm

Happy Birthday VB!

61 darthstar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:10:15pm

Shit. I hate when this kind of shit happens. The worst in some people always seems to bring out the worst in others. My thoughts go out to the families of the victims.

62 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:10:38pm

re: #52 Holidays are Family Fun Time

But don't you have to keep remeasuring them? Something to do with Schroeders cat?

:0

That's Schrodingers piano, isn't it?

63 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:11:48pm

re: #62 b_sharp

That's Schrodingers piano, isn't it?

I think you might be right. I think Beethoven is involved.

(depending on when you look at it)

64 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:13:19pm

Jimmah!!! Hi to the Wife too!

65 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:14:49pm
66 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:15:53pm

One of the major vendors for the Zionist Mall just decided to change their linking code and sent the new code to their affiliates AFTER THEY ALREADY DISABLED ALL THE OLD CODE.

Gah.

67 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:15:56pm

Freepers...

The MSM will start on and on about “crazed vets” and THE BAN ALL GUNS CROWD will be on TV BEFROE they find out what its about.

another Gun Free-Fire-Zone shooting.

Why aren’t those murderous psychopaths ever stopped by those signs? /Clueless leftists

Blacks almost never do this kind of thing.
Amish are Moslems. Let’s keep it that way - it makes more sense and is hence, funnier.

I’m thinking Muslim

Or union goon or both.

The gun control minions will be out in force within a few hours.

The name of the suspect will be withheld until his Facebook page (with all his “likes” for Obama, socialism, etc.) can be scrubbed from the Internet.

another mall shooting. paging bob costas maybe we need to close the malls to save “just one child.”

If Obama had a son he’d act like this guy. The only difference is this gunman has killed one or two innocent people while his “father” Obama is killing a whole nation.

Freepers can turn anything into a political rant about Obama (or his son wtf?) can't they? :(

68 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:15:57pm

talking heads guessing about situ on tv. bleah

69 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:16:41pm

re: #65 Gus

#DPRK

WHAT?

70 darthstar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:17:32pm

re: #68 Stanghazi

talking heads guessing about situ on tv. bleah

They're just trying to figure out how to maximize the commercial value of the tragedy. Turn them off.

71 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:17:33pm

re: #69 Holidays are Family Fun Time

WHAT?

Si. It's passed over Okinawa already.

72 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:18:09pm
73 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:19:02pm

re: #70 darthstar

They're just trying to figure out how to maximize the commercial value of the tragedy. Turn them off.

done. im outside. survived the tuna btw.

74 darthstar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:19:55pm

re: #73 Stanghazi

done. im outside. survived the tuna btw.

Good. I figured it was probably okay to eat.

75 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:20:10pm

re: #67 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I'm almost afraid to ask. What, precisely, is a 'Gun Free-Fire-Zone shooting'?

77 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:22:25pm

re: #75 erik_t

I'm almost afraid to ask. What, precisely, is a 'Gun Free-Fire-Zone shooting'?

MALLS, SCHOOLS, PARKS and other such areas are zoned as "gun-free" zones by law in most/some communities.

So, if you wanted to use a firearm for any illegal reason, where would you go, to the cop shop or a gun-free zone?

I understand the concept, but it seems a little bass-ackwards to me.

78 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:22:34pm

4:54 p.m.: Pedro Garcia, 24, of Happy Valley, said he was walking to Panera Bread Co. at the mall to get some sandwiches, “like any other day.’’

He was just outside the mall when he said he heard at least six shots.


“But what caught my attention, I could smell the gunpowder,’’ Garcia said. “That’s what pretty much made me run. The gunpowder is what made me react.’’

[Link: www.oregonlive.com...]

79 steve_davis  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:23:38pm

And of course let us keep in mind that as tragic as this is, now isn't the time to discuss gun control. Nor was it after Columbine. Nor Virginia Tech. Arizona. Denver. In fact, while we'll admit that there is probably a time to discuss gun control, that time is never this time......just practicing for my attempt to break into print as a right-wing sydicated columnist.

80 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:24:37pm

re: #75 erik_t

I'm almost afraid to ask. What, precisely, is a 'Gun Free-Fire-Zone shooting'?

It's one of their ever-enduring mantras, that such shootings never happen in anyplace but "gun free zones," which is asserted as "proof" that concealed carry needs to be expanded everywhere, because then the crazies won't dare start shooting for fear of valiant gun owners taking them down.

81 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:25:35pm

1,700 miles.

82 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:25:57pm

re: #81 Gus

1,700 miles.

Give or take. My estimate. No confirmation yet.

83 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:26:52pm

re: #79 steve_davis

Bob Costas

84 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:27:26pm

No joke.

Oops. Copied the wrong link before. :-/

85 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:28:19pm

re: #81 Gus

1,700 miles.

"long range" is relative I suppose. I'll give them credit, it's a better rocket than I could build. It's important to keep in mind that they are sharing missile and nuclear technology with Iran so this possibly reflects Iran's capabilities as well.

86 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:29:05pm

It's hard to imagine a law in the U.S. that actually prevents these people from getting a hold of firearms if they really want them. Banning Internet sales could be helpful.

But I have a hard time seeing most of these guys getting to a point where they actually have there gun rights stripped. I mean, theoretically they are passing background checks now...

87 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:29:10pm

re: #84 Four More Tears

No joke.

[Embedded content]

I'm a bit confused, are they taking precaution in the event of other shooters or do they know there are more shooters?

88 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:29:12pm

re: #75 erik_t

I'm almost afraid to ask. What, precisely, is a 'Gun Free-Fire-Zone shooting'?

re: #77 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Yep, many malls and large department stores have signs on the doors prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons inside. Florida is a concealed carry state but many of the shopping malls prohibit it even though state law does not, the biggest one closest to where I live does.

89 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:29:16pm

IIRC, CCW still isn't allowed in gun-free zones.

90 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:29:46pm

re: #87 Targetpractice

I'm a bit confused, are they taking precaution in the event of other shooters or do they know there are more shooters?

No official press reports as of yet. We only have here-say.

91 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:29:51pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

"long range" is relative I suppose. I'll give them credit, it's a better rocket than I could build. It's important to keep in mind that they are sharing missile and nuclear technology with Iran so this possibly reflects Iran's capabilities as well.

Well this was a scientific mission with a satellite on board so cleary this mission has failed.

//

92 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:30:06pm

The news types at KATU found a witness who actually saw the gunman: Young, white, dressed in black with a white hockey mask, armed with what the witness called an assault rifle.

93 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:30:16pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

It's one of their ever-enduring mantras, that such shootings never happen in anyplace but "gun free zones," which is asserted as "proof" that concealed carry needs to be expanded everywhere, because then the crazies won't dare start shooting for fear of valiant gun owners taking them down.

Oh, I see, that makes sense.

Because if I'm a member of the gun-hating Liberal Media, I'm going to spend so much more airtime covering shootings in ineffective gun-free zones, rather than focusing on all of the shootings (and, as above, 80-odd daily killings) in areas where guns are still allowed.

Internally-inconsistent shit-for-brains.

94 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:30:46pm

re: #87 Targetpractice

I'm a bit confused, are they taking precaution in the event of other shooters or do they know there are more shooters?

They seem pretty confident that the lone shooter is dead. Since there were reports of multiple shooters they have to check it out but it looks like this is over.

95 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:33:19pm

re: #93 erik_t

Oh, I see, that makes sense.

Because if I'm a member of the gun-hating Liberal Media, I'm going to spend so much more airtime covering shootings in ineffective gun-free zones, rather than focusing on all of the shootings (and, as above, 80-odd daily killings) in areas where guns are still allowed.

Internally-inconsistent shit-for-brains.

They have to keep alive the myth that criminals live in constant fear of gun owners, and that if such a thing every happened in a place where concealed carry is allowed, the shooter would be neutralized before he could get off a shot.

50 public shootings in 3 years and not one has had a valiant lone gunman take down the crazed shooter. But still, they keep the myth alive.

96 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:33:28pm

re: #86 uncah91

It's hard to imagine a law in the U.S. that actually prevents these people from getting a hold of firearms if they really want them. Banning Internet sales could be helpful.

But I have a hard time seeing most of these guys getting to a point where they actually have there gun rights stripped. I mean, theoretically they are passing background checks now...

No, we can't keep every criminal or whacko from getting whatever weapon they want. We can enforce the laws and fund the databases we have in place. I remember a while back there was some bru-ha-ha over some database of the mentally ill and the gun-checking system. They were underfunded, understaffed and the protocol for health care to report was never finalized. It was a total cluster and one of the recent shooters fell into the category that would have been prevented from getting a legal firearm if it had been working.

It's such an emotionally charged issue and politicans are so concerned about votes and lobbying dollars, I'm not sure it will ever be hammered out.

97 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:33:50pm
98 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:34:09pm

Geez. The TV guys just talked to a lady who saw a man she knew shot and killed. The victim was "the nice gentleman who ran the kiosk." The witness was audibly distraught and broke down.

99 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:34:10pm

"According to preliminary reports, a man with a semiautomatic rifle opened fire near Macy’s around 3:29 p.m. The man, who may have been wearing body armor and camouflage clothing, also was seen near the mall’s food court.

John Canzano, sports columnist for The Oregonian, reported that as many as 60 shots were fired while he was shopping at the mall."

Damn Librulz. They can't shoot for shit.

///

100 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:34:27pm

Beck dons wig to mock Costas with tasteless rant about Jerry Brown’s death

Conservative radio host Glenn Beck on Tuesday wore a wig and ranted about “beer culture” to mock sports broadcaster Bob Costas’ recent commentary on “gun culture” in the United States following a tragic murder/suicide involving NFL linebacker Jovan Belcher.

“Our current beer drinking and car driving culture ensures that more routine nights out with friends will end in the ultimate tragedy,” Beck began. “That more innocent road trips will leave even more youngsters and babies strewn across the road. Roads bloodied. People dead. Beer doesn’t enhance our lives or our society.”

“Beer muscles, beer goggles, liquid courage, liquid logic, ‘I’m okay to drive!’ when you’re clearly hammered out of your mind!” he continued.

What a douche.

101 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:34:35pm

re: #79 steve_davis

And of course let us keep in mind that as tragic as this is, now isn't the time to discuss gun control. Nor was it after Columbine. Nor Virginia Tech. Arizona. Denver. In fact, while we'll admit that there is probably a time to discuss gun control, that time is never this time......just practicing for my attempt to break into print as a right-wing sydicated columnist.

You had me going there for a bit...I had a fireball ready to throw your way.

Until the end.

Well played, sir.

102 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:36:15pm
103 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:36:22pm

Police briefing now. Shooter and two others dead, looking for more victims.

104 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:37:03pm

re: #95 Targetpractice

They have to keep alive the myth that criminals live in constant fear of gun owners, and that if such a thing every happened in a place where concealed carry is allowed, the shooter would be neutralized before he could get off a shot.

50 public shootings in 3 years and not one has had a valiant lone gunman take down the crazed shooter. But still, they keep the myth alive.

Not just 50 public shootings, but several that weren't in "gun free zones".

105 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:37:15pm

re: #95 Targetpractice

They have to keep alive the myth that criminals live in constant fear of gun owners, and that if such a thing every happened in a place where concealed carry is allowed, the shooter would be neutralized before he could get off a shot.

50 public shootings in 3 years and not one has had a valiant lone gunman take down the crazed shooter. But still, they keep the myth alive.

That is because the liberal media suppresses those stories.
///

106 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:37:21pm

re: #95 Targetpractice

They have to keep alive the myth that criminals live in constant fear of gun owners, and that if such a thing every happened in a place where concealed carry is allowed, the shooter would be neutralized before he could get off a shot.

50 public shootings in 3 years and not one has had a valiant lone gunman take down the crazed shooter. But still, they keep the myth alive.

IIRC, the one in Arizona was-or was that an off-duty cop. There are some that a armed citizen has stopped the gunmen, but they don't make the news. Another problem with the perception is that we don't hear about instances in which the citizen stops the criminal. There is no box on the police report that is checked for citizens using firearms (or machetes) as self-defense, there IS one for firearms being used in crime.

So guess what data get's sliced and diced and is included in crime stats?

we don't have any way of knowing the truth.

107 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:38:13pm

Everyone needs to take serious stock of their family and close friends and think: Are they in a clear sense OK? Do they have access to guns?

Everyone.

As i read about crazy eyes Aurora shooter, people knew. his family knew. They prob didnt know about his amassing guns, but in my opinion the person's behavior shows something is off.

108 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:38:26pm

re: #96 Holidays are Family Fun Time

No, we can't keep every criminal or whacko from getting whatever weapon they want. We can enforce the laws and fund the databases we have in place. I remember a while back there was some bru-ha-ha over some database of the mentally ill and the gun-checking system. They were underfunded, understaffed and the protocol for health care to report was never finalized. It was a total cluster and one of the recent shooters fell into the category that would have been prevented from getting a legal firearm if it had been working.

It's such an emotionally charged issue and politicans are so concerned about votes and lobbying dollars, I'm not sure it will ever be hammered out.

Yes. But if in the wake of these mass shootings we emphasized the holes in the background check process, things might actually get done.

109 darthstar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:38:34pm

Mini shuttle?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

110 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:39:40pm

re: #106 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, the one in Arizona was-or was that an off-duty cop. There are some that a armed citizen has stopped the gunmen, but they don't make the news. Another problem with the perception is that we don't hear about instances in which the citizen stops the criminal. There is no box on the police report that is checked for citizens using firearms (or machetes) as self-defense, there IS one for firearms being used in crime.

So guess what data get's sliced and diced and is included in crime stats?

we don't have any way of knowing the truth.

The Giffords shooting in Arizona was almost made worse when a citizen almost decided to pull out his gun and shoot the guy who had taken Loughner's gun away from Loughner. No off duty cop involved.

111 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:40:07pm

re: #108 uncah91

Yes. But if in the wake of these mass shootings we emphasized the holes in the background check process, things might actually get done.

I'd love to see public outcry for enforcement, but we don't.

From either side.

112 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:40:12pm

re: #100 Kragar

Beck dons wig to mock Costas with tasteless rant about Jerry Brown’s death

What a douche.

G-d, such an insensitive, ignorant asshole.

113 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:40:39pm

re: #110 wrenchwench

The Giffords shooting in Arizona was almost made worse when a citizen almost decided to pull out his gun and shoot the guy who had taken Loughner's gun away from Loughner. No off duty cop involved.

Thank you for refreshing my memory and correcting my post.

114 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:40:39pm

re: #106 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, the one in Arizona was-or was that an off-duty cop. There are some that a armed citizen has stopped the gunmen, but they don't make the news. Another problem with the perception is that we don't hear about instances in which the citizen stops the criminal. There is no box on the police report that is checked for citizens using firearms (or machetes) as self-defense, there IS one for firearms being used in crime.

Is this sarcasm? Such stories might not be reflected in national crime statistics or whatever, but the MOARGUNZ lobby cares not about math. These stories absolutely do crop up in the local paper, and there's nothing more wingnut than Dueling Anecdotes.

So where are they? Where is the repeated-ad-nauseum local newspaper story of the triumphant armed citizen?

115 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:40:43pm

re: #106 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, the one in Arizona was-or was that an off-duty cop. There are some that a armed citizen has stopped the gunmen, but they don't make the news. Another problem with the perception is that we don't hear about instances in which the citizen stops the criminal. There is no box on the police report that is checked for citizens using firearms (or machetes) as self-defense, there IS one for firearms being used in crime.

So guess what data get's sliced and diced and is included in crime stats?

we don't have any way of knowing the truth.

The one in Arizona? You're talking about the Giffords shooting in Tuscon? The one where unarmed citizens wrestled the gunman to the ground because he fumbled the reload, while a man with a lawful gun nearly plugged the gun who'd wrestled the gun away from the gunman before realizing his mistake?

116 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:41:34pm

re: #86 uncah91

It's hard to imagine a law in the U.S. that actually prevents these people from getting a hold of firearms if they really want them. Banning Internet sales could be helpful.

But I have a hard time seeing most of these guys getting to a point where they actually have there gun rights stripped. I mean, theoretically they are passing background checks now...

You can only buy guns online if you have a federal firearms dealers license, you can buy ammo, clips, and accessories online but not actually guns. Some sellers will ship to a local licensed dealer for you so that you can pick it up from them, but of course that involves paying them a handling fee. Federal law still requires the local dealer to see/copy your ID and run a background check plus comply with any waiting period as required by state law.

117 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:41:45pm

re: #109 darthstar

Mini shuttle?

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Chemtrails!

118 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:41:48pm

re: #114 erik_t

Is this sarcasm? Such stories might not be reflected in national crime statistics or whatever, but the MOARGUNZ lobby cares not about math. These stories absolutely do crop up in the local paper, and there's nothing more wingnut than Dueling Anecdotes.

So where are they? Where is the repeated-ad-nauseum local newspaper story of the triumphant armed citizen?

It doesn't bother you that we don't have accurate statistics of gun use?

119 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:43:02pm

re: #118 Holidays are Family Fun Time

It doesn't bother you that we don't have accurate statistics of gun use?

Whhhh.... what?

You know what else bothers me? Bears. Inaccurate food labeling. Cowboys fans.

Now what were we talking about again?

Oh yeah, crime prevention by the trusty armed decent citizen. Where are the stories?

120 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:44:33pm

I like living in Portland but I don't have a whole lot of pride in the city. Yet I still cringe; dopey police spokesman, lame generic local news casters interviewing slightly dim people with not much interesting to say. It's kind of embarrassing.

121 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:44:41pm

re: #111 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I'd love to see public outcry for enforcement, but we don't.

From either side.

I'd put myself on the side of gun control, but I'd like the "control" proposed to have some chance at having prevented the tragedy in question.

We aren't going to get bans on handguns. We might get reduced magazine capacity at seem point. We could get more resources dedicated to the background check system.

122 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:45:08pm

re: #119 erik_t

Whhhh.... what?

You know what else bothers me? Bears. Inaccurate food labeling. Cowboys fans.

Now what were we talking about again?

Oh yeah, crime prevention by the trusty armed decent citizen. Where are the stories?

I don't know, where are the stories?

123 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:46:31pm

re: #116 watching you tiny alien kittens are

You can only buy guns online if you have a federal firearms dealers license, you can buy ammo, clips, and accessories online but not actually guns. Some sellers will ship to a local licensed dealer for you so that you can pick it up from them, but of course that involves paying them a handling fee. Federal law still requires the local dealer to see/copy your ID and run a background check plus comply with an waiting period as required by state law.

Thanks for the clarity. I was wondering why that didn't seem right.

124 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:46:47pm

re: #100 Kragar

Beck dons wig to mock Costas with tasteless rant about Jerry Brown’s death

What a douche.

Bob Costas is on his way to his next gig just shaking his head. The right media pundit corporation is marketing on the fly. what new outrage will make us $. Better, find a PERSON whe can attack. More directed and less convouleted.

125 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:47:37pm

re: #122 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't know, where are the stories?

Didn't you already answer that with the assertion above that they go unreported?

126 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:48:25pm

re: #121 uncah91

I'd put myself on the side of gun control, but I'd like the "control" proposed to have some chance at having prevented the tragedy in question.

We aren't going to get bans on handguns. We might get reduced magazine capacity at seem point. We could get more resources dedicated to the background check system.

David Hemenway has done some research on the subject in the area of Public Health. I saw his C-SPAN book talk a while back and thought the idea worth pursuing. It was a long time ago and my interests have moved from 2nd Amendments to Reproductive Rights, so I am not up on what he has been doing since.

127 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:48:41pm

Crime is on the rise here in Portland. This happened recently
"I know the vacuum man, hes seen my tits"

128 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:49:35pm

re: #106 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, the one in Arizona was-or was that an off-duty cop. There are some that a armed citizen has stopped the gunmen, but they don't make the news. Another problem with the perception is that we don't hear about instances in which the citizen stops the criminal. There is no box on the police report that is checked for citizens using firearms (or machetes) as self-defense, there IS one for firearms being used in crime.

So guess what data get's sliced and diced and is included in crime stats?

we don't have any way of knowing the truth.

I think maybe you were thinking of this mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah?
An off duty officer did help get the suspect in that one.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

129 erik_t  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:49:53pm

re: #122 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't know, where are the stories?

You're the one who suggests that we don't hear about these armed-citizen-victory events because they're badly filed in police reporting, or the statistics are compiled in an unhelpful way, or something. So I'm asking you why we don't hear about them, if they're happening. Do you think the local media wouldn't report them? Do you think Freepers don't know how to use Google? Something else?

I, personally, don't think we hear these stories because I don't believe they happen at any meaningful rate.

130 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:51:31pm

Plunk.

131 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:51:41pm

re: #125 Targetpractice

Didn't you already answer that with the assertion above that they go unreported?

Discover magazine didn't a pretty good article (like 15 years ago) on this type of issue. My recollection was that if there is any prevention that is simple deterrence, it isn't reported as such.

Of course, it the deterrence assumes a counter factual, so you couldnt get any real stats anyway.

132 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:52:38pm

Need confirmation on second stage.

133 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:53:24pm

re: #114 erik_t

Is this sarcasm? Such stories might not be reflected in national crime statistics or whatever, but the MOARGUNZ lobby cares not about math. These stories absolutely do crop up in the local paper, and there's nothing more wingnut than Dueling Anecdotes.

So where are they? Where is the repeated-ad-nauseum local newspaper story of the triumphant armed citizen?

No, it's not sarcasm. I do not recall repeating ad-nauseum any thing about the triumphant armed citizen.

I don't care what the MOARGUNZ lobby cares about. I would like accurate stats of gun use. Frankly, I don't understand how we can make effective Policy without them.

What I don't understand about your question is that in the previous paragraph you yourself stated that "These stores absolutely do crop-up . . . ." then you ask me where they are.

And, I don't want to go further. I don't think we are going to see eye-to-eye on this and I don't want to argue. Let's just drop it.

134 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:55:13pm

Did it fail or not? Seeing conflicting reports.

135 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:57:28pm

If a concealed carry licensee actually did kill the shooter, it would strengthen, not weaken, the case for licensing gun owners. In most states (and definitely in Oregon), a fairly elaborate training course and background checks are required for a CHL. This could be why we don't see licensed people pull their guns and start blasting in these situations.

136 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:58:39pm
137 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 5:59:13pm

What always gets me about those who favor guns as self defense is that on most situations the attacker is going to have the complete advantage. They control almost all the crucial elements. They control when and where to attack.

The number of "false deployments" of a firearm for those carrying at all times must be large.

138 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:02:32pm

Aww, Rachel Maddow has tonight off, I guess we will have to wait to get her take on this. Probably better that way anyway, she will have time to get the facts straight before attempting to address them.

139 gwangung  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:02:54pm

re: #137 uncah91

What always gets me about those who favor guns as self defense is that on most situations the attacker is going to have the complete advantage. They control almost all the crucial elements. They control when and where to attack.

In those situations, chaos is the attacker's ally. I can very much see the use of guns in home defense: defined territory, constrained choices for the bad guys, etc. Aint the case for mass shootings....

140 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:03:06pm

re: #129 erik_t

Why is it strange that much gets unreported? If there is little or no bloodshed it just gets bumped off the news by more dramatic stories.

I have a recent personal example. A thief tried to grab my laptop at a subway station that has become a homeless hangout. Thing is I was paying close attention and just sidestepped with some harsh language. The would be thief backs off claiming "just kidding", while a couple others nearby catcall him saying I punked him. I just kept my distance and went on down the escalator to my subway.

There are no news or police reports. No gun no injuries no crime. What is there to report?

If you look at Colorado CCW numbers, there is a very good chance there was one or more armed CCW holders in the Aurora theater. If so, they just sensibly fled with the unarmed people. Nothing to report about them, just the carnage inside.

141 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:03:28pm

Oh..I freaking get it now.. The basis of RW base belief system about taxes.
A pundit talking about taxes being a moral issue. When our nation was born there were no fed taxes and asking millionaires and billionaires to pay a couple % more is nothing more than a power grab by the Gov't. It's immoral and against our founding fathers wishes.
Fuck..I get it now. May you never win another election until you grow the hell up..
Party of the grown ups..That still cracks me..
/rant off

142 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:04:17pm

re: #137 uncah91

What always gets me about those who favor guns as self defense is that on most situations the attacker is going to have the complete advantage. They control almost all the crucial elements. They control when and where to attack.

The number of "false deployments" of a firearm for those carrying at all times must be large.

The thing is that the people I know that carry, have never fired.

I met one lady (a nurse) at a gun safety course that was a witness in a trial against the criminal. The criminal was getting out of jail and had specifically said he was going to "get" her. I can see why she would benefit from CCW.

Most of the time, I don't get it. I've never felt threatened. But, my not getting it isn't a reason to make a decisions for other people.

Thus, I would like accurate data.

143 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:07:56pm

re: #139 gwangung

In those situations, chaos is the attacker's ally. I can very much see the use of guns in home defense: defined territory, constrained choices for the bad guys, etc. Aint the case for mass shootings....

Yes, in your own home you are more likely to have an advantage, but unless you live the life of a solitary monk, the false deployments are still likely to happen, and are even scarier to contemplate.

144 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:08:03pm

re: #137 uncah91

Sometimes a fighting chance is enough.

145 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:08:55pm

re: #140 Political Atheist

I'm pretty much anti gun, but you and others (my pop included) have really educated me to a more rational position.

mentally unstable people with access.

146 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:10:06pm

re: #141 A Man for all Seasons

Oh..I freaking get it now.. The basis of RW base belief system about taxes.
A pundit talking about taxes being a moral issue. When our nation was born there were no fed taxes and asking millionaires and billionaires to pay a couple % more is nothing more than a power grab by the Gov't. It's immoral and against our founding fathers wishes.
Fuck..I get it now. May you never win another election until you grow the hell up..
Party of the grown ups..That still cracks me..
/rant off

They're having fainting spells now that word's going around that the GOP may very well cave on the tax rate hikes. The leadership's trying to give assurances by saying they'll take up the fight with the debt ceiling, but already there's cries of "betrayal!"

147 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:10:11pm

Richard Grenell is concerned.

148 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:12:00pm

re: #145 Stanghazi

Well thanks for that. We do have to get after criminal use of guns. Clever criminals, mentally unstable violent people, etc. I fully support gun controls that do that short of interfering terribly with legitimate access.

We have got to well regulate those who will use the 2nd. People like me.

149 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:12:13pm

re: #143 uncah91

Yes, in your own home you are more likely to have an advantage, but unless you live the life of a solitary monk, the false deployments are still likely to happen, and are even scarier to contemplate.

"There are two kinds of people, those that have experienced an unintended discharge and those that will."

150 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:12:26pm

re: #147 Gus

Richard Grenell is concerned.

One minute they gripe that the UN is ineffectual and useless, then next they whine that we're not rushing to the UN to posture for the cameras.

151 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:12:39pm

re: #144 Political Atheist

Sometimes a fighting chance is enough.


[Video]

Note the particulars in that case that even the odds. The woman has been attacked recently and is attacked again by the same person.

152 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:13:19pm

re: #150 Targetpractice

One minute they gripe that the UN is ineffectual and useless, then next they whine that we're not rushing to the UN to posture for the cameras.

It's funny. He's freaking out.

153 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:14:54pm

re: #149 Holidays are Family Fun Time

"There are two kinds of people, those that have experienced an unintended discharge and those that will."

Yeah, I'm not even talking about an unintended discharge. I'm talking about readying your weapon when there is, in fact, no danger.

154 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:16:24pm

re: #148 Political Atheist

Well thanks for that. We do have to get after criminal use of guns. Clever criminals, mentally unstable violent people, etc. I fully support gun controls that do that short of interfering terribly with legitimate access.

We have got to well regulate those who will use the 2nd. People like me.

Yes, it's a challenge. Short of having gun-safety courses in high school, I don't know how to accomplish anything regarding the issue. I have had enough courses to know that I don't want to shoot thousands of rounds and spend the money and time necessary to be proficient with the firearm. I'm just not enough of a gun nut. I don't care if other people do tho, I wish more would.

There are lot of people out there with legal guns that don't participate in shooting sports or even go to the firing range on a regular basis. Why bother owning a gun if you can't accurately fire it?

I don't get it.

It is an Olympic Sport after all --one in which the non-athletic can excell. I don't understand the taboo.

155 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:16:49pm

re: #148 Political Atheist

Well thanks for that. We do have to get after criminal use of guns. Clever criminals, mentally unstable violent people, etc. I fully support gun controls that do that short of interfering terribly with legitimate access.

Been meaning to ask where "gun show" loopholes fit into this in your opinion.

156 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:17:37pm

re: #153 uncah91

Yeah, I'm not even talking about an unintended discharge. I'm talking about readying your weapon when there is, in fact, no danger.

I don't understand. It is an inanimate object. Properly stored and cared for, it isn't a danger.

157 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:20:41pm

re: #151 uncah91

Note the particulars in that case that even the odds. The woman has been attacked recently and is attacked again by the same person.

If she'd lived in California the five days between attacks wouldn't have been enough to purchase and take possession of a shotgun.

159 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:22:11pm

re: #144 Political Atheist

Sometimes a fighting chance is enough.

[Embedded content]

I remember hearing about that one. I know she was well within her rights, but why didn't she just go outside, to her neighbors instead of shooting? She heard him come thru the window and banging against the basement door.

Wasn't there also a big report about a serial rapist in Florida many years ago. The local police decided to hold a series women's firearm training sessions and the rapes stopped?

I have dogs, fingernails and teeth.

160 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:23:14pm

re: #3 JRCMYP

Why does this happen so much--or at all?

Guns???

161 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:23:31pm

re: #144 Political Atheist

Sometimes a fighting chance is enough.

[Embedded content]

A pump shotgun is the perfect weapon for home defense. Easy to operate, shoots where you point it, and it won't kill your next door neighbor.

162 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:24:11pm

re: #156 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't understand. It is an inanimate object. Properly stored and cared for, it isn't a danger.

This does not seem helpful. A gun is a lethal weapon. Properly stored and cared for, the danger can be minimized.

However, a gun is never _merely_ an inanimate object.

163 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:25:12pm

re: #151 uncah91

Of course. And I for one am damn glad a ten or fourteen day "cooling off period" did not prevent her from access to stop the second attack. And I am even happier that guy did not have a gun and shoot her first.

I have some documented incidents, often at jewelry stores. The most dramatic example-
Arguably the most experienced gunfighter in the US was this poor guy Lance Thomas that sold Rolex watches at his store. The fought off armed attackers 5 times. Got wounded a couple times. Killed a couple attackers.
Wiki
Justice Files show
Gave up against the ongoing gang threat closed his place and moved to Obscurity, USA. He said he was afraid for his customers and just had to close.

164 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:25:39pm

re: #156 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't understand. It is an inanimate object. Properly stored and cared for, it isn't a danger.

In order to defend yourself when an attack actually occurs, you will need to have have your weapon drawn, a round chambered and the safety off. You need to do this in advance of determining that you will actually fire.

Every time you do that, there is a chance your assessment is incorrect. There is a chance you will choose to discharge your weapon when you shouldn't have. That is the danger I am speaking of.

Most individuals will never choose to discharge incorrectly. But with enough gun owners and enough events, you will have them.

165 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:25:56pm

re: #160 CarleeCork

Guns???

because buiding body bombs is harder?

166 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:27:15pm

re: #155 bratwurst

Been meaning to ask where "gun show" loopholes fit into this in your opinion.

The loopholes need to be closed out. I fully support instant check. If a felon turns up trying I'd like to see an arrest. A good person still gets to take that gun home to lock away pending a trip to the range.

167 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:27:27pm

What about Crowder's fax outrage today in Michigan?
While I agree the union should have never torn down the tent.
Let us look on the other side. I was in the union for 20 years.
The last thing you ever want to do is build a tent in the middle of a one day protest of angry shipbuilders, welders and pipe-fitters and big truck drivers and the like. How fucking provocative is that?
You might as well go to a crack house with a bible and a 9mm looking for new church members for Sunday service. Pretty stupid

168 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:27:47pm

re: #164 uncah91

In order to defend yourself when an attack actually occurs, you will need to have have your weapon drawn, a round chambered and the safety off. You need to do this in advance of determining that you will actually fire.

Every time you do that, there is a chance your assessment is incorrect. There is a chance you will choose to discharge your weapon when you shouldn't have. That is the danger I am speaking of.

Most individuals will never choose to discharge incorrectly. But with enough gun owners and enough events, you will have them.

Yes, you are correct.

169 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:28:49pm

re: #156 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't understand. It is an inanimate object. Properly stored and cared for, it isn't a danger.

So are nukes. We should be concerned by the owners.

170 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:29:18pm

I still feel like carp.

have a great evening all!

171 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:29:59pm

Oh fuck.

Is it time to talk about better gun control legislation yet?

I am so sick of these tragedies.

172 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:30:53pm

re: #155 bratwurst

Been meaning to ask where "gun show" loopholes fit into this in your opinion.

There's no such thing as a "gun show" loophole. In states that allow private transfers between gun owners that don't involve an FFL holder those transfers operate the same way wherever they occur. It doesn't matter if it's at a gun show or in your living room.

This is why California requires all transfers to go through an FFL holder, so that there's a DROS performed and the buyer is run through the DOJ database to see if they're allowed to possess a firearm. If you buy a gun from a vender at a CA gunshow you and the vender go out back where the local FFL's set up shop and find one that will agree to do the transfer. The FFL then takes possession of the gun and you are only allowed to pick up your purchase 10 days later at the FFL's normal place of business.

173 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:31:11pm

re: #155 bratwurst

Been meaning to ask where "gun show" loopholes fit into this in your opinion.

There is no "gun show loophole".

Let's go to "Gun Show America".

Vendor A is an average joe selling 2 or 4 guns to make Christmas present money. He does not have a FFL.

Vendor B owns a gun store and is there with dozens of guns. He has an FFL.

I buy from A and it's like I am buying from my neighbor. Cash on the barrel head & a shake of the hands is all that is legally required.

I buy from B because he's actually got what I want. I have to fill out an ATF form 4473 and have a background check. Here in Wisconsin if it's a handgun the 48 hour cooling off period still applies.

IOW, the law at the gun show is the exact same as it is everywhere else. A gun show is not magically more lax about the law. And if A sells to someone not legally eligible to own the firearm both are looking at long vacations at Club Fed.

174 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:31:37pm

re: #167 A Man for all Seasons

What about Crowder's fax outrage today in Michigan?
While I agree the union should have never torn down the tent.
Let us look on the other side. I was in the union for 20 years.
The last thing you ever want to do is build a tent in the middle of a one day protest of angry shipbuilders, welders and pipe-fitters and big truck drivers and the like. How fucking provocative is that?
You might as well go to a crack house with a bible and a 9mm looking for new church members for Sunday service. Pretty stupid

It was a manufactured "outrage" and its having the desired effect. I've already had more than one wingnut tell me, with crocodile tears in eyes, how this is gonna hurt the argument the unions are making. That people are gonna be hesitant to support "violent protestors."

175 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:31:46pm

re: #163 Political Atheist

Of course. And I for one am damn glad a ten or fourteen day "cooling off period" did not prevent her from access to stop the second attack. And I am even happier that guy did not have a gun and shoot her first.

I have some documented incidents, often at jewelry stores. The most dramatic example-
Arguably the most experienced gunfighter in the US was this poor guy Lance Thomas that sold Rolex watches at his store. The fought off armed attackers 5 times. Got wounded a couple times. Killed a couple attackers.
Wiki
Justice Files show
Gave up against the ongoing gang threat closed his place and moved to Obscurity, USA. He said he was afraid for his customers and just had to close.

Are you at all willing to consider probabilities in this?

I had a friend who refused to wear a seatbelt because he was involved a car wreck where, had he been wearing a belt' he would have likely died. That isn't really a good argument for people not wearing seat belts.

176 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:32:32pm

re: #168 Holidays are Family Fun Time

To expand on this point, the most significant effect of having a nation buried in guns (like the US) may be the accident and suicide statistics. The death/injury numbers for mass-shooting incidents are almost certainly much smaller.

177 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:34:59pm

re: #169 CarleeCork

So are nukes. We should be concerned by the owners.

Of course. Nothing could make the world a better place than a little bit of mutual assured destruction in everyone's garage. Think how polite everyone would be...

178 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:35:07pm

second amendment

my general feeling is that a few centuries or so from now this will be regarded as a period where the technical abilities of humankind significantly outran our emotional maturity

179 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:35:34pm

Latest news: the shooter apparently killed himself. No shots were fired by police during the incident.

180 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:35:38pm

Shooter killed himself, as per KATU.

181 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:36:25pm

re: #173 William Barnett-Lewis

There is no "gun show loophole".
...
And if A sells to someone not legally eligible to own the firearm both are looking at long vacations at Club Fed.

you really think there are prosecutions for a private sale to a felon?

182 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:37:16pm

re: #179 Charles Johnson

Latest news: the shooter apparently killed himself. No shots were fired by police during the incident.

Seems to be the way these things go, either the shooter offs himself or the cops save him the bullet. Actually been sort of surprising with Laughner and the Aurora shooter, getting taken into custody alive.

183 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:37:26pm

re: #164 uncah91

In order to defend yourself when an attack actually occurs, you will need to have have your weapon drawn, a round chambered and the safety off. You need to do this in advance of determining that you will actually fire.

Every time you do that, there is a chance your assessment is incorrect. There is a chance you will choose to discharge your weapon when you shouldn't have. That is the danger I am speaking of.

Most individuals will never choose to discharge incorrectly. But with enough gun owners and enough events, you will have them.

What I and my wife did to get that edge, that experience that would reduce the chance we would screw the pooch and increase our chance to prevail without rounds flying at other homes- Was to actually train up enough to compete in a tactical handgun sport. Our school was ISI near Piru, Ca. The training fades if you don't keep practicing. So we chose IDPA and shot every week for a decade. At night, In the rain. In close quarters. Hundreds of scenarios. Ran two State Championships. Along the way many years in we were both asked to train and certify new instructors and range officers for the growing sport. Not that we needed to shoot that much we actually just fell in love with the sport and some great people.

184 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:37:39pm

re: #162 EPR-radar

This does not seem helpful. A gun is a lethal weapon. Properly stored and cared for, the danger can be minimized.

However, a gun is never _merely_ an inanimate object.

Properly stored it's also no help in a home invasion.

185 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:38:39pm

re: #166 Political Atheist

re: #172 goddamnedfrank

re: #173 William Barnett-Lewis

Thanks for the knowledge, gentlemen. I admit that I am what you would consider "anti-gun". It is easy for me to forget there are reasonable folks with common sense on the other side. Your voices are appreciated and needed more than ever, thank you.

186 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:39:26pm

re: #184 b_sharp

Properly stored it's also no help in a home invasion.

It's no help in some home invasions.

That's why I keep bringing up probabilities and tactical advantage.

187 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:40:16pm

re: #175 uncah91

Are you at all willing to consider probabilities in this?

I had a friend who refused to wear a seatbelt because he was involved a car wreck where, had he been wearing a belt' he would have likely died. That isn't really a good argument for people not wearing seat belts.

I do consider the probabilities. They help shape what I want to see in terms of the regulations we want withing the framework of a basic but sometimes problematic civil right.

188 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:40:30pm

re: #181 uncah91

you really think there are prosecutions for a private sale to a felon?

Yes.

Ruby Ridge ring any bells? An no, that hasn't stopped ATF.

189 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:41:30pm

re: #183 Political Atheist

What I and my wife did to get that edge, that experience that would reduce the chance we would screw the pooch and increase our chance to prevail without rounds flying at other homes- Was to actually train up enough to compete in a tactical handgun sport. Our school was ISI near Piru, Ca. The training fades if you don't keep practicing. So we chose IDPA and shot every week for a decade. At night, In the rain. In close quarters. Hundreds of scenarios. Ran two State Championships. Along the way many years in we were both asked to train and certify new instructors and range officers for the growing sport. Not that we needed to shoot that much we actually just fell in love with the sport and some great people.

Sure. That lowers the risk.

And if that were actually a requirement for gun ownership, it would be great.

But even police forces, who deploy their weapons professionally, make mistakes.

190 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:42:41pm

re: #186 uncah91

It's no help in some home invasions.

That's why I keep bringing up probabilities and tactical advantage.

There are answers for those questions but this might not be the time and place for that kind of thing. We have another awful criminal shooting and I'd like to respect that and those grieving. I already feel I should have said that a post or two ago.

191 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:43:35pm

Uh huh.

192 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:44:06pm

re: #191 Four More Tears

Uh huh.

[Embedded content]

Didn't they make the same declaration last time?

193 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:44:18pm

re: #189 uncah91

All we can do is our best. Elsewhere I wrote lots of articles on this stuff. But you are utterly correct. All we get at best is a fighting chance.

194 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:44:42pm

re: #164 uncah91

In order to defend yourself when an attack actually occurs, you will need to have have your weapon drawn, a round chambered and the safety off. You need to do this in advance of determining that you will actually fire.

No. You just need enough time to get to the gun / draw the gun / and shoot it, or to buy enough time to do so. Not all guns have lever safeties and many, including all revolvers are always carried in the chambered condition. You don't need to do any of the steps you list in advance of determining that you're going to shoot, nor really should you. If you're going to draw and point the gun at a person you should already have determined that you're completely willing to kill them.

A person doesn't have to be in the process of performing an actual attack against you to have presented a clear and present danger to your life or the lives of others.

195 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:44:48pm

re: #167 A Man for all Seasons

I like to think the chickenshittery turns away people, but sadly the Republicans didn't seem to lose much, if any, support in Wisconsin this election.

196 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:45:16pm

re: #173 William Barnett-Lewis

There is no "gun show loophole".

Let's go to "Gun Show America".

Vendor A is an average joe selling 2 or 4 guns to make Christmas present money. He does not have a FFL.

Vendor B owns a gun store and is there with dozens of guns. He has an FFL.

I buy from A and it's like I am buying from my neighbor. Cash on the barrel head & a shake of the hands is all that is legally required.

I buy from B because he's actually got what I want. I have to fill out an ATF form 4473 and have a background check. Here in Wisconsin if it's a handgun the 48 hour cooling off period still applies.

IOW, the law at the gun show is the exact same as it is everywhere else. A gun show is not magically more lax about the law. And if A sells to someone not legally eligible to own the firearm both are looking at long vacations at Club Fed.

But A doesn't even have to ask.

197 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:46:07pm

re: #188 William Barnett-Lewis

Yes.

Ruby Ridge ring any bells? An no, that hasn't stopped ATF.

Oh my. Where an FBI sniper took the 5th. Dark days for the agency.

198 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:46:17pm

re: #188 William Barnett-Lewis

Yes.

Ruby Ridge ring any bells? An no, that hasn't stopped ATF.

Please.

That was sale of illegal firearms in the course of investigating Aryan Nation militia activity. It has zipola to do with whether a private sale to someone I have no reason to believe is a felon (who actually is one) will land me in the hooscow.

199 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:47:44pm

re: #191 Four More Tears

Uh huh.

[Embedded content]

This is the only time I agree with them...If it would have failed the West would be crowing about it within 5 minutes.
what is going on in lil kims head? No food, booze or porn for a year pal.

200 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:47:53pm

More graves discovered in 100-year-old Florida school abuse scandal

New investigation puts deaths at nearly 100 since 1900 – many young, black males sent to the institution for minor infractions

The scale of abuse at a notorious youth residential school in Florida has been laid bare with the release of a report by investigators who say they have evidence of almost 100 deaths at the institution.

Investigators say they believe more graves are yet to be uncovered at the Arthur G Dozier School for Boys in Marianna, which closed a year ago following revelations of the widespread physical and sexual abuse of youths sent there since early last century.

It means the enormity of the outrage, in which survivors have told gruesome stories of regular beatings, rapes and even murders by staff members, is much greater than reported by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in 2010, when the agency announced the presence of 31 grave sites.

“We found nearly twice as many burials as were thought to exist, but many of them had been lost in the woods under brush and trees,” said professor Erin Kimmerle, head of a team of anthropologists and archaeologists from Tampa’s University of South Florida called on to look into deaths at the reform school from 1900 to 1960.

201 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:48:45pm

re: #196 Four More Tears

But A doesn't even have to ask.

That is correct. He does not have to. But he is still legally responsible, under federal law, if the person he sells it to is ineligible.

We really need to have the NICS opened up to all sellers an make it required.

202 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:49:13pm

re: #200 Kragar

More graves discovered in 100-year-old Florida school abuse scandal

That reads like something you'd expect from a former Gulag camp in Russia.

203 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:49:16pm

re: #191 Four More Tears

Uh huh.

[Embedded content]

North Korea announces major Scientific discovery from satellite launch: New evidence of whales and giant squids in earth's orbit.

204 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:52:23pm

re: #193 Political Atheist

All we can do is our best. Elsewhere I wrote lots of articles on this stuff. But you are utterly correct. All we get at best is a fighting chance.

If you weren't committed to staying sharp, would you recommend someone keep a firearm readily available for defense?

205 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:52:36pm

re: #201 William Barnett-Lewis

That is correct. He does not have to. But he is still legally responsible, under federal law, if the person he sells it to is ineligible.

We really need to have the NICS opened up to all sellers an make it required.

That is so. It's a federal felony to give or sell a firearm to a person prohibited from owning one. Not knowing they were barred from firearms ownership is only a defense if the buyer was using a fake identity. This is because some high-grade false IDs can spoof NICS, and if that happens the seller is not held responsible.

206 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:53:28pm

re: #201 William Barnett-Lewis

That is correct. He does not have to. But he is still legally responsible, under federal law, if the person he sells it to is ineligible.

We really need to have the NICS opened up to all sellers an make it required.

Uh, aren't most sane gun-control advocates asking for just that?

207 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:53:35pm

re: #205 Dark_Falcon

That is so. It's a federal felony to give or sell a firearm to a person prohibited from owning one. Not knowing they were barred from firearms ownership is only a defense if the buyer was using a fake identity. This is because some high-grade false IDs can spoof NICS, and if that happens the seller is not held responsible.

But is anyone actually prosecuted for it?.

208 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:54:34pm

Something on the lighter side, what happens when you mix Weird Al Yankovic and a Brony?

209 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:54:53pm

I heard one of the witnesses on KATU say that he saw the shooter in the white hockey mask walking with two or three other teenagers before the incident. There's still more to this story.

210 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:55:02pm

re: #206 Four More Tears

Uh, aren't most sane gun-control advocates asking for just that?

And wouldn't this amount to closing the (inaccurately named) gun show loophole?

211 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:55:13pm

re: #200 Kragar

holy shit

212 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:55:35pm

re: #189 uncah91

But even police forces, who deploy their weapons professionally, make mistakes.

Yep. My Dad and I meet for lunch every Tuesday. Afterwards we often go to one of the local gun shops to see what's new on the consignment shelves. Today I saw a Smith and Wesson 649 that had been modified to be double action only. I'd seen a Smith 60 modded this way before and it seemed like a weird thing to do to a gun so I asked the salesman what was up with that. He pointed out that both guns were ex LAPD weapons and that the department had a policy of grinding off the single action sear from the hammers of revolvers. The idea was that offers draw their guns with a lot of adrenaline surging and will reflexively thumb back the hammer for a single stage pull. Then if the gun isn't fired, still pumped on adrenaline, the officers might forget that the hammer is back and will re-holster the gun, setting themselves up for an accidental discharge the next time they pull out the gun.

We also saw a couple of consigned Desert Eagles today, each with .44 mag and .50 AE barrels. I had no idea how ridiculously heavy those things were.

213 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:55:46pm

re: #189 uncah91

Sure. That lowers the risk.

And if that were actually a requirement for gun ownership, it would be great.

But even police forces, who deploy their weapons professionally, make mistakes.

It's not a safe world, is what it comes down to. For civilization and decency to survive, they must be protected by armed force. And sometimes that force, even when used with the utmost care, kills someone who should not have died. There's no way around that point, sorrowful though it is.

214 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:58:00pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

That reads like something you'd expect from a former Gulag camp in Russia.

Nope. USA USA.

Marianna Fl. Football is often their only way out. Fuckin a horror.

215 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:59:36pm

re: #207 uncah91

But is anyone actually prosecuted for it?.

Fairly often, when it is caught in time* and the sale can be traced.

*: Illegal firearms sales charges have a 5 year statute of limitations, so some such crimes cannot be prosecuted because the violation was not discovered until after the statutory limit had been exceeded.

217 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:00:38pm

re: #204 uncah91

I admit I wrestle with exactly where to draw the line. Partly because I would draw a higher standard to CCW than at home. I think where I would draw the line would annoy some of my fellow gun defense rights advocate friends.
It is really unwise to go buy a gun, take a class and not ever practice or take refresher classes. The best way to stay sharp is go have some fun regularly. Enjoy the sporting side. Maybe hunt, though I do not.

218 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:00:51pm

On a lighter note, Rush is finally making it into the R&R Hall of Fame.

219 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:01:42pm

re: #218 b_sharp

On a lighter note, Rush is finally making it into the R&R Hall of Fame.

After his history of racism and calling that poor law student a slut?!?!


(sorry)

220 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:01:53pm

re: #209 Charles Johnson

I heard one of the witnesses on KATU say that he saw the shooter in the white hockey mask walking with two or three other teenagers before the incident. There's still more to this story.

Anderson Cooper is saying just now shooter acted alone. It's still early in the cycle of course. The police are still necessarily being reticent.

221 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:02:51pm

re: #219 bratwurst

After calling the poor law student a slut?!?!

(sorry)

That was absolutely Satt-like.

222 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:03:55pm

re: #212 goddamnedfrank

I never have been a gun guy. I own a 9mm PPK like 007 had and a stupidly expensive holster. Never bought a shell for it or fired it. It is really cool looking. I consider it a collectors piece.

223 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:04:22pm

Anyone notice that we seem to be having a LOT of these kinds of incidents this year? Rampage shootings?

224 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:04:56pm

re: #209 Charles Johnson

I heard one of the witnesses on KATU say that he saw the shooter in the white hockey mask walking with two or three other teenagers before the incident. There's still more to this story.

There was the guy earlier who said he saw four people walking from the area of the bus stop together, one of whom was wearing a mask. Still, eyewitness reports after incidents like this are notorious for being wrong or confused about details. Sometimes the "witness" wasn't even in a position to see anything they claim, they just want the attention so they make stuff up.

I doubt anyone else was directly involved but it is possible I guess, we will have to wait and see what the police find.

225 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:06:19pm

re: #224 watching you tiny alien kittens are

There was the guy earlier who said he saw four people walking from the area of the bus stop together, one of whom was wearing a mask. Still, eyewitness reports after incidents like this are notorious for being wrong or confused about details. Sometimes the "witness" wasn't even in a position to see anything they claim, they just want the attention so they make stuff up.

I doubt anyone else was directly involved but it is possible I guess, we will have to wait and see what the police find.

they're checking facebook as we type

226 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:06:27pm

When you have four (or five?) of these rampage shootings in a single year, doesn't it seem like it's time to take a serious look at trying to stop them?

Does to me.

227 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:06:50pm

re: #223 Charles Johnson

Anyone notice that we seem to be having a LOT of these kinds of incidents this year? Rampage shootings?

some of the people in my office from india were asking me a few months ago if this frequency of mass murders in the united states was normal

228 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:07:15pm

re: #223 Charles Johnson

Anyone notice that we seem to be having a LOT of these kinds of incidents this year? Rampage shootings?

I blame atheists. Or maybe socialists.

Bad economies, or at least the belief that the economy is in bad shape increases stress levels. Kids react to their parent's stress.

229 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:08:01pm

again. mental health..gun access.

230 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:08:46pm

re: #223 Charles Johnson

Anyone notice that we seem to be having a LOT of these kinds of incidents this year? Rampage shootings?

I've noticed it, certainly. I often wonder whether the wall-to-wall coverage feeds incidents like this. Some unstable nutburger hears about another unstable nutburger going on a rampage, and thinks, "Wow! What a great idea!"

231 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:09:11pm

re: #223 Charles Johnson

Anyone notice that we seem to be having a LOT of these kinds of incidents this year? Rampage shootings?

232 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:10:23pm

re: #228 b_sharp

I blame atheists. Or maybe socialists.

Bad economies, or at least the belief that the economy is in bad shape increases stress levels. Kids react to their parent's stress.

we should all relax from the stress of a bad economy more by going to all of our relaxing american movies where people shoot the crap out of each other like it was something they did everyday for the whole movie and then they get the girl the end

233 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:10:53pm

re: #226 Charles Johnson

When you have four (or five?) of these rampage shootings in a single year, doesn't it seem like it's time to take a serious look at trying to stop them?

Does to me.

It makes Jon Stewart's piece from last night's Daily Show all the more eerie and prescient:

234 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:11:29pm

re: #223 Charles Johnson

Anyone notice that we seem to be having a LOT of these kinds of incidents this year? Rampage shootings?

See the chart here. It's not that unusual, it's just that we happen to be paying attention.

235 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:11:36pm

re: #232 engineer cat

we should all relax from the stress of a bad economy more by going to all of our relaxing american movies where people shoot the crap out of each other like it was something they did everyday for the whole movie and then they get the girl the end

Perhaps the hero should get the girl first and not have to shoot the crap out of others.

236 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:12:05pm

re: #230 Dr Lizardo

I've noticed it, certainly. I often wonder whether the wall-to-wall coverage feeds incidents like this. Some unstable nutburger hears about another unstable nutburger going on a rampage, and thinks, "Wow! What a great idea!"

i believe this is actually documented.

If we could have a ban on showing the face of the shooter (fat chance, I know) it might actually diminish the cycle.

237 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:12:52pm

re: #235 b_sharp

Perhaps the hero should get the girl first and not have to shoot the crap out of others.

then wouldn't it be, like, a pr0n movie?

238 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:12:56pm

re: #226 Charles Johnson

When you have four (or five?) of these rampage shootings in a single year, doesn't it seem like it's time to take a serious look at trying to stop them?

Does to me.

Agreed and I think multiple tracks are appropriate. First one side is guns, well worth getting into and regulating better. Then we have to improve our mental health system. As a symptom of a medical system in decline more mentally ill people are going with out the help or medicine.

BRB dinner is served

239 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:14:24pm

re: #234 kirkspencer

See the chart here. It's not that unusual, it's just that we happen to be paying attention.

Genuinely Interesting.

240 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:14:49pm

re: #237 engineer cat

then wouldn't it be, like, a pr0n movie?

You don't say.

241 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:15:02pm

re: #236 uncah91

i believe this is actually documented.

If we could have a ban on showing the face of the shooter (fat chance, I know) it might actually diminish the cycle.

Not doable under the 1st Amendment.

242 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:16:47pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Not doable under the 1st Amendment.

But banning pictures of coffins arriving at Dover? Totally doable.

243 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:16:51pm

re: #234 kirkspencer

See the chart here. It's not that unusual, it's just that we happen to be paying attention.

I know, and it's even more disturbing that we've been ignoring the problem for that long.

244 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:16:56pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Not doable under the 1st Amendment.

Neither is a ban on revealing the names of sexual assault victims, yet the vast majority of media outlets respect that "rule" regardless.

245 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:17:19pm

re: #238 Political Atheist

Agreed and I think multiple tracks are appropriate. First one side is guns, well worth getting into and regulating better. Then we have to improve our mental health system. As a symptom of a medical system in decline more mentally ill people are going with out the help or medicine.

BRB dinner is served

You need to spread your rational ideas around.

246 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:17:29pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Not doable under the 1st Amendment.

Mmmm. Yelling fire in a crowded theater is not protected speech. Public safety can come in to it. But the Internet pretty much makes it impossible now anyway.

247 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:17:30pm

re: #234 kirkspencer

See the chart here. It's not that unusual, it's just that we happen to be paying attention.

the graph only goes up to 2010

how do this year's shootings compare?

248 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:18:33pm

re: #243 Charles Johnson

That's why, in 2012, it's just as easy to commit mass murder with state of the art weapons as it was in 1976.

249 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:23:23pm

re: #218 b_sharp

On a lighter note, Rush is finally making it into the R&R Hall of Fame.

Limbaugh did rock-n-roll?

250 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:24:02pm

re: #249 austin_blue

Limbaugh did rock-n-roll?

mostly roll

251 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:25:29pm

re: #228 b_sharp

I blame atheists. Or maybe socialists.

Bad economies, or at least the belief that the economy is in bad shape increases stress levels. Kids react to their parent's stress.

How do you know that he wasn't a fanatical union supporter who was distraught over the news from Michigan?

///

252 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:26:38pm

re: #248 Charles Johnson

That's why, in 2012, it's just as easy to commit mass murder with state of the art weapons as it was in 1976.

Note that states with the most incidents (CA, TX, NY) just line up by population.

If gun control had a large effect on incident frequency. you would expect TX to be at the top....

253 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:30:18pm

re: #222 A Man for all Seasons

I never have been a gun guy. I own a 9mm PPK like 007 had and a stupidly expensive holster. Never bought a shell for it or fired it. It is really cool looking. I consider it a collectors piece.

Nice. I bought one of the new Smith and Wesson made versions of the PPK/S a few years ago, in stainless. It looked beautiful but didn't shoot nearly as well as my Dad's older Interarms made gun, so I sold it.

And if you aren't aware, if you ever do buy ammo for it the PPK is chambered in 9mm Kurz (German for short) aka 9x17mm, but most Americans call it .380 Auto. If you just ask for "9mm" they'll probably sell you 9mm Parabellum which is 2mm too long for the PPK to chamber.

254 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:32:10pm

re: #252 uncah91

Note that states with the most incidents (CA, TX, NY) just line up by population.

If gun control had a large effect on incident frequency. you would expect TX to be at the top....

Although, Florida isn't on the list, so its clearly not one single factor.

255 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:32:24pm

Why do second amendment fanatics always overlook the part that says "well regulated"?

256 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:34:47pm

re: #255 Kragar

Fanatics of all stripes overlook or attack whatever limits them.

257 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:37:16pm

Republicans aren't interested in talking.

258 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:37:31pm

re: #255 Kragar

Why do second amendment fanatics always overlook the part that says "well regulated"?

There's a plausible argument to be made that, as the term was used at the time, well-regulated meant "properly functioning."

259 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:37:33pm

re: #253 goddamnedfrank

Nice. I bought one of the new Smith and Wesson made versions of the PPK/S a few years ago, in stainless. It looked beautiful but didn't shoot nearly as well as my Dad's older Interarms made gun, so I sold it.

And if you aren't aware, if you ever do buy ammo for it the PPK is chambered in 9mm Kurz (German for short) aka 9x17mm, but most Americans call it .380 Auto. If you just ask for "9mm" they'll probably sell you 9mm Parabellum which is 2mm too long for the PPK to chamber.

Thanks Frank..All my gun friends told me it was chambered as a 380 auto. I was pissed off thinking I got ripped off..I bought a 9mm! It is one.. No it's not! you told me it was a 380.. Well it is.. Then it's not a 9mm.. Well yes it is.. Crazy.../

260 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:37:41pm

re: #255 Kragar

Why do second amendment fanatics always overlook the part that says "well regulated"?

Archaic usage. Means permanent.

261 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:37:56pm

re: #255 Kragar

Why do second amendment fanatics always overlook the part that says "well regulated"?

Because the Supreme Court specifically gives it no value in it's rulings, it is a case of interpreting what they believe the actual intent was rather than the exact wording used.

262 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:40:10pm

re: #261 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I read the decision. They exclude the militia part, and embrace regulation in principle. That's why the Chicago Illinois decision was stayed by the judge-Give the state time to regulate ccw.

263 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:40:51pm
264 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:41:00pm

re: #247 engineer cat

the graph only goes up to 2010

how do this year's shootings compare?

According to this article (which in turn cites the brady organization), as of August 6th there had been 22 mass shooting incidents in the US. My memory sucks in regard to how many there have been since then, but seems to me we've had about five or six since then. That makes it among the higher count years, though not quite the highest (2003 with 30 incidents).

265 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:43:46pm

re: #260 austin_blue

Archaic usage. Means permanent.

No it does not mean permanent. It means smoothly functioning.

266 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:44:19pm

re: #260 austin_blue

Archaic usage. Means permanent.

We've got that. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and National Guard.

267 uncah91  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:45:09pm

re: #264 kirkspencer

Wow. 17 injured in one incident in Tuscaloosa and I never heard of it.

[Link: www2.alabamas13.com...]

268 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:46:12pm

There's some hope in freeperland. They have latched onto the idea that the mall shooter was wearing a Guy Fawkes ("V for Vendetta") mask rather than a hockey mask and is therefore a lefty Occupier incited by constant calls for violent revolution. Naturally Muslims were among the first accused, with freepers trotting out their moth-eaten "Amish shooter" jokes, apparently to prove that no occasion is too shocking, disgusting, or horrifying for a little levity.

269 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:46:55pm

re: #266 Kragar

We've got that. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines

It's a great place to start!

270 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:47:54pm

re: #258 goddamnedfrank

There's a plausible argument to be made that, as the term was used at the time, well-regulated meant "properly functioning."

I could see that being the case. The term 'junk guns' still gets used sometimes, but back in the time of the Founding some muskets were more dangerous to the firer than to the target. That's why a number of states eventually had "inspectors of militia": The inspector was assigned to ensure that all militiamen had a musket or rifle that would actually work reliably and to ferret out dishonest gun makers trying to sell the militia substandard guns.

271 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:49:53pm

re: #263 Gus

[Embedded content]

That's a theory that needs to be more widely adapted. Skeptics, Wingnuts, moonbats, MSNBC, Fox, OWS, Tea Party (Yes, I anticipate the obligatory MBF allegations) are all largely counter productive. It's all more about preaching to the choir and tribal reinforcement than winning in the market place of ideas.

272 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:50:05pm

re: #268 Shiplord Kirel

There's some hope in freeperland. They have latched onto the idea that the mall shooter was wearing a Guy Fawkes ("V for Vendetta") mask rather than a hockey mask and is therefore a lefty Occupier incited by constant calls for violent revolution. Naturally Muslims were among the first accused, with freepers trotting out their moth-eaten "Amish shooter" jokes, apparently to prove that no occasion is too shocking, disgusting, or horrifying for a little levity.

Well, shooting up a mall is a lot closer to what Guy Fawkes was planning to do than what 'V' does in the graphic novel and movie.

273 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:50:07pm

This year Oklahoma enacted a law to allow open carry guns legal. So I could walk Winston carrying a .357 on my side and a AR-15 and shotgun slung on my shoulder. It's not crazy.. It's the law.
The only problem is there are signs on Banks, Stores and Bars disallowing guns inside.. What a hassle.
//

274 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:52:05pm

re: #273 A Man for all Seasons

This year Oklahoma enacted a law to allow open carry guns legal. So I could walk Winston carrying a .357 on my side and a AR-15 and shotgun slung on my shoulder. It's not crazy.. It's the law.
The only problem is there are signs on Banks, Stores and Bars disallowing guns inside.. What a hassle.
//

Wait a minute; Winston is going to be carrying the .357?!

/

275 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:52:11pm

re: #270 Dark_Falcon

I could see that being the case. The term 'junk guns' still gets used sometimes, but back in the time of the Founding some muskets were more dangerous to the firer than to the target. That's why a number of states eventually had "inspectors of militia": The inspector was assigned to ensure that all militiamen had a musket or rifle that would actually work reliably and to ferret out dishonest gun makers trying to sell the militia substandard guns.

In keeping with the vision of the Founding Father's for the second amendment, all citizens should be allowed to own and keep one (1) black powder muzzle loader.

Anything else needs to be regulated, tracked and controlled.

276 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:52:55pm

Wingnut reactions when shooter's identity is released:

If he's a tea party patriot incited by Alex Jones and Glen Beck:

Now, that's just one person out of millions. No telling what his real issues are. Maybe he's a closet lefty or a false flag like the guy in Arizona.

If he's a Muslim, has a vaguely Muslim name, or once said something positive about Muslims:

Oh no! We told you so! Inhuman beasts bent on taking us over and bringing in communism and shariah law! Deport the lot of them!

277 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:53:08pm

The more guns that are out there, the more will fall into the wrong hands. It's just math.

278 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:53:39pm

Isn't concealed carry in 49 of 50 states now?

279 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:54:25pm

re: #278 Amory Blaine

Isn't concealed carry in 49 of 50 states now?

In varying forms, yes. And IL's ban on it got overturned today.

280 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:55:42pm

So I suppose the next move is open carry in all 50 states? What's next for the NRA?

281 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:56:50pm

I hear ya..

There might be something less than optimal in the culture when people stay up late to find out why the latest mass murderer was so fucked up in the head.

282 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:58:42pm

re: #280 Amory Blaine

So I suppose the next move is open carry in all 50 states? What's next for the NRA?

Lobbying groups are like sharks: They have to keep lobbying or suffocate. They can't just be still.

283 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 7:59:40pm

re: #281 Mich-again

I hear ya..

There might be something less than optimal in the culture when people stay up late to find out why the latest mass murderer was so fucked up in the head.

Threadwinner!

Unanimous-3 of 3 in the room I'm sitting in. LWC, D_L and myself.

284 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:05:03pm
285 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:07:05pm

The cop punching the woman in the face lost his job, then got it back. Then after public outcry, gets fired again.

286 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:07:47pm

re: #265 kirkspencer

No it does not mean permanent. It means smoothly functioning.

From my World Book dictionary, two volumes, 5,000 pages.

Regulate (definition 5):

"to systematize, regularize"

Regular (definition 13):

"permanently organized"

287 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:08:01pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

That's a theory that needs to be more widely adapted. Skeptics, Wingnuts, moonbats, MSNBC, Fox, OWS, Tea Party (Yes, I anticipate the obligatory MBF allegations) are all largely counter productive. It's all more about preaching to the choir and tribal reinforcement than winning in the market place of ideas.

Politics is more personalized and far more difficult to find common ground. Or I guess it's a lot more easier to become a dick. Normally I prefer not to be a dick other than my occasional outbursts but even then I control myself. Sometimes I think I can be more of a dick than I actually am. I think I learned that from being a young Catholic.

But I agree with Phil and have agreed with this for some years now. I never understood the necessity to lash out at people for their beliefs. Skepticism is like secularism in many ways. You can be religious and be either or both. You can either be religious or atheist, a conservative or a liberal, yet still think Uri Geller is a con man.

288 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:12:06pm
289 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:12:45pm

I told a co-worker today during a friendly debate that climate denying was a cop-out for people who don't want to admit to their kids that they don't give a shit about what kind of planet we leave them. And that struck a nerve! ha.

290 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:13:36pm

re: #289 Mich-again

I told a co-worker today during a friendly debate that climate denying was a cop-out for people who don't want to admit to their kids that they don't give a shit about what kind of planet we leave them. And that struck a nerve! ha.

Yeah, that's pretty strong. :)

291 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:14:56pm

re: #287 Gus

Politics is more personalized and far more difficult to find common ground. Or I guess it's a lot more easier to become a dick. Normally I prefer not to be a dick other than my occasional outbursts but even then I control myself. Sometimes I think I can be more of a dick than I actually am. I think I learned that from being a young Catholic.

But I agree with Phil and have agreed with this for some years now. I never understood the necessity to lash out at people for their beliefs. Skepticism is like secularism in many ways. You can be religious and be either or both. You can either be religious or atheist, a conservative or a liberal, yet still think Uri Geller is a con man.

It really is an exceptional speech the further I get into it. I think he really gets it. Of course if he were to post those same thoughts on r/atheism or other blogs he'd probably be labeled a concern troll. I don't think the topic matters, religion politics, or whatever. The mechanics are all the same.

292 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:15:05pm

re: #288 Amory Blaine

This cop liked digging for gold.

Here's some of his pals.

An asshole who liked to finger assholes.

293 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:16:11pm

RIP Ravi Shankar.

Norah Jones lives on.

294 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:16:31pm

Breaking CNN
Pentagon says -The DPRK missile put a satellite in orbit.

295 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:17:24pm

This is probably just garden variety gun violence that doesn't really deserve mention...

296 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:17:49pm

re: #291 Killgore Trout

It really is an exceptional speech the further I get into it. I think he really gets it. Of course if he were to post those same thoughts on r/atheism or other blogs he'd probably be labeled a concern troll. I don't think the topic matters, religion politics, or whatever. The mechanics are all the same.

Yeah. Some of those blogs are pretty intense. It's not like here where you can be intense and then work things out somehow on a personal level. Someone will disagree with you in those places and call you a "retard" and a "child molesting pedophile." People always have an opinion. It can either be well formed, poorly formed, or delivered in insults.

297 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:19:16pm
298 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:19:17pm

re: #289 Mich-again

I told a co-worker today during a friendly debate that climate denying was a cop-out for people who don't want to admit to their kids that they don't give a shit about what kind of planet we leave them. And that struck a nerve! ha.

God commanded us to be good stewards of the Earth.
That doesn't imply to rape Mother Earth for a few more dollars.
We can be an advanced modern Planet without the rape part.
We can be good stewards of our Earth my Christian GOP friends.

299 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:20:36pm

re: #294 Political Atheist

Breaking CNN
Pentagon says -The DPRK missile put a satellite in orbit.

Oh my, that's serious. If they have a way to put a satellite into a stable orbit then they have the ability to hit at least Hawaii with a ballistic missile.

300 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:22:25pm

Briefing started.

301 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:23:23pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Oh my, that's serious. If they have a way to put a satellite into a stable orbit then they have the ability to hit at least Hawaii with a ballistic missile.

Assuming they can bring a warhead down with that much accuracy.

302 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:23:29pm

re: #300 Shiplord Kirel

Briefing started.

OK. Now live blog it. Ready, and, GO!

303 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:25:00pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Oh my, that's serious. If they have a way to put a satellite into a stable orbit then they have the ability to hit at least Hawaii with a ballistic missile.

Meh. They can put a nuke somewhere in the vicinity of Hawaii. Lobbing nukes is easy. Hitting Oahu is much tougher. Which is why we used to load 10 megaton crackers on the old Titan ICBM's.

304 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:25:16pm

re: #301 Four More Tears

Assuming they can bring a warhead down with that much accuracy.

Yes, but if they can do this, then they're close.

305 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:25:23pm

Ready?

306 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:25:36pm
307 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:25:51pm

Need confirmation. Copy. Over.

308 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:25:54pm

re: #303 austin_blue

Meh. They can put a nuke somewhere in the vicinity of Hawaii. Lobbing nukes is easy. Hitting Oahu is much tougher. Which is why we used to load 10 megaton crackers on the old Titan ICBM's.

True. It's also why MIRVs were developed originally.

309 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:26:36pm

re: #298 A Man for all Seasons

We can be good stewards of our Earth my Christian GOP friends.

It really is the win-win strategy. Reducing wasted energy consumption will make a stockpile in supply that will crash the price and grow the economy while it reduces emissions.

310 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:26:39pm

re: #307 Gus

Need confirmation. Copy. Over.

It is confirmed: Gus is a screwball.

311 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:26:54pm

NORAD acknowledges missile launch
North American Aerospace Defense Command

NORAD and USNORTHCOM Public Affairs
December 11, 2012

PETERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Colo. - North American Aerospace Defense Command officials acknowledged today that U.S. missile warning systems detected and tracked the launch of a North Korean missile at 7:49 p.m. EST. The missile was tracked on a southerly azimuth. Initial indications are that the first stage fell into the Yellow Sea. The second stage was assessed to fall into the Philippine Sea. Initial indications are that the missile deployed an object that appeared to achieve orbit. At no time was the missile or the resultant debris a threat to North America.

312 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:27:14pm

re: #263 Gus

re: #296 Gus

Yeah. Some of those blogs are pretty intense. It's not like here where you can be intense and then work things out somehow on a personal level. Someone will disagree with you in those places and call you a "retard" and a "child molesting pedophile." People always have an opinion. It can either be well formed, poorly formed, or delivered in insults.

The amount of abuse Plaitt took for that speech at Pharyngula was brutal. I actually think at times they despise him more than creationists and Godbots.

313 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:27:31pm

re: #289 Mich-again

What would you call someone who spent his family inheritance- all the accumulated capital, in one generation? Yet that is what we are doing with the Earth, and it's resources.

314 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:27:56pm

re: #312 Mattand

re: #296 Gus

The amount of abuse Plaitt took for that speech at Pharyngula was brutal. I actually think at times they despise him more than creationists and Godbots.

What about?

315 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:28:50pm

re: #304 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but if they can do this, then they're close.

Maybe. I'm more worried about this thing losing orbit, not burning up on re-entry, and killing someone on the ground.

316 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:29:29pm

re: #312 Mattand

re: #296 Gus

The amount of abuse Plaitt took for that speech at Pharyngula was brutal. I actually think at times they despise him more than creationists and Godbots.

Are you sure you're not thinking about Thunderfoot?

317 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:29:42pm

Shooter tentatively identified, but police will not release name without positive ID.

318 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:29:52pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

True. It's also why MIRVs were developed originally.

Actually, MIRV's were deployed once they could be independently targeted. It's not like they were designed to be Double 00 buckshot.

319 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:30:16pm

FIRST UNICORN IN SPACE!!

320 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:30:18pm

re: #311 Gus

PETERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Colo. - North American Aerospace Defense Command officials acknowledged today that U.S. missile warning systems detected and tracked the launch of a North Korean missile at 7:49 p.m.

In order to shoot down a missile, you first need to detect and track it's launch.

321 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:32:40pm

re: #314 Gus

What about?

IIRC, it was seen as being too nice to the enemy. Part of it is that you can be as polite as you want in, say, an argument as to whether the Earth is 6000 years old. Eventually, the creationist will roll over you and ignore everything you said.

Part of it is the general gestalt over there: being rude and insulting is not only the last option, it's the first, second, and third as well.

322 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:32:43pm

re: #313 dragonath

What would you call someone who spent his family inheritance- all the accumulated capital, in one generation? Yet that is what we are doing with the Earth, and it's resources.

I think the word is usufruction. Use the earth for its bounty while you are here, but leave it unspoiled for the next generations. We have failed pretty miserably at that.

323 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:32:54pm

re: #315 Mattand

Maybe. I'm more worried about this thing losing orbit, not burning up on re-entry, and killing someone on the ground.

That's not a great danger. Most of the Earth's surface is water, so the odds are a falling satellite will just fall into the ocean.

324 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:34:36pm

re: #320 Mich-again

In order to shoot down a missile, you first need to detect and track it's launch.

The threat from one Nork missile would be minimal. Our ABMs almost certainly would shoot it down.

325 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:34:48pm

re: #321 Mattand

IIRC, it was seen as being too nice to the enemy. Part of it is that you can be as polite as you want in, say, an argument as to whether the Earth is 6000 years old. Eventually, the creationist will roll over you and ignore everything you said.

Part of it is the general gestalt over there: being rude and insulting is not only the last option, it's the first, second, and third as well.

Oh. Yeah, see that's why I probably side with Phil. I don't see e.g. creationists as my enemy. I don't loathe them. There are times to stand ones ground such as in educational boards and curricula but not to eject them from society and deny them the chance to earn a living. :D

326 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:35:00pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

That's not a great danger. Most of the Earth's surface is water, so the odds are a falling satellite will just fall into the ocean.

I wonder if the Satt will beep while it goes over the US.

327 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:35:27pm

re: #320 Mich-again

In order to shoot down a missile, you first need to detect and track it's launch.

Stand by for key turn.

328 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:35:47pm

re: #326 A Man for all Seasons

I wonder if the Satt will beep while it goes over the US.

It would have to.

329 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:36:35pm

If they really got a satt up this puts a wrench on extra sanctions or violations.

330 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:37:14pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

That's not a great danger. Most of the Earth's surface is water, so the odds are a falling satellite will just fall into the ocean.

Heck, no one hardly even noticed the Tunguska Event 104 years ago.

331 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:37:40pm

Colbert: North Korea has Unicorn technology.

332 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:37:51pm

Skynet. Don't forget they're a Chinese ally. This is all leading up to the eventual global take-over by China in 2030.

//

333 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:37:54pm

re: #319 dragonath

FIRST UNICORN IN SPACE!!

Funny!

But I doubt that the object they got into orbit was anything near the weight of a horse.

Sputnik weighed about 184 pounds, significantly less than the Norks could possibly produce re: a nuke.

They've developed 1957 tech! Panic!

334 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:38:02pm

re: #316 Four More Tears

Are you sure you're not thinking about Thunderfoot?

No, it was definitely a reaction to the TAM speech. Myers was actually fairly even-handed in his criticism of the speech. The comments, which I can't find, were pretty rough on Phil.

Thunderfoot is a different story altogether. No one knew what a giant misogynistic asshole he was until after they brought him to Freethoughts Blogs.

335 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:39:19pm

re: #333 austin_blue

Funny!

But I doubt that the object they got into orbit was anything near the weight of a horse.

Sputnik weighed about 184 pounds, significantly less than the Norks could possibly produce re: a nuke.

They've developed 1957 tech! Panic!

We're doomed of course.

336 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:39:44pm

Colbert: We have better mythical creatures here in America. Like Bigfoot. Or a moderate Republican.

337 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:39:55pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

That's not a great danger. Most of the Earth's surface is water, so the odds are a falling satellite will just fall into the ocean.

True. Although IIRC, Skyland came down somewhere in Australia (fortunately in one of their vast wastelands.)

338 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:40:05pm

re: #331 Four More Tears

Colbert: North Korea has Unicorn technology.

Does that that Kin Jong Un is a brony?

///

339 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:40:40pm

This isn't the first time they've tried to raise a satellite. Back in 1998 they tried with one they called the "Kwangmyongsong I" which they claimed made orbit.

I like the black and white picture. Makes it look like a still from a lost Thunderbirds pilot or something.

340 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:42:08pm

re: #337 Mattand

True. Although IIRC, Skyland came down somewhere in Australia (fortunately in one of their vast wastelands.)

Skyland. Skyfall.

Skylab?

Yeah, an airlock landed in the midst of the Outback. Brutalized innocent sand grains.

341 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:43:00pm

re: #325 Gus

Oh. Yeah, see that's why I probably side with Phil. I don't see e.g. creationists as my enemy. I don't loathe them. There are times to stand ones ground such as in educational boards and curricula but not to eject them from society and deny them the chance to earn a living. :D

You're much nicer about it than I am. I do see them, along with AGW deniers, as a sort of enemy. We have enough problems with education in our country as it is; people running around insisting their religion doubles as science make it that much worse.

342 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:43:33pm

re: #340 austin_blue

Skyland. Skyfall.

Skylab?

Yeah, an airlock landed in the midst of the Outback. Brutalized innocent sand grains.

LOL, it's late.

343 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:44:45pm

re: #330 Mich-again

Heck, no one hardly even noticed the Tunguska Event 104 years ago.

Well, that was in Siberia. There are places there where you could have that big a blast effect without anyone being directly affected.

Today, however, the effects might be more noticeable. Did Tunguska produce an EMP, I wonder?

344 Achilles Tang  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:46:15pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

The threat from one Nork missile would be minimal. Our ABMs almost certainly would shoot it down.

Probably, but that ignores the simple fact that we have known they were preparing for this launch for weeks, if not months.

So what is the scenario? NK says do this or that or we will launch the missile that we will have ready next month, and we accept that you may possibly nuke us even if we try to send it to you?

The NK nuts may be psycho, but they are not insane.

345 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:47:06pm

Hey that' a nice satellite you have there. It's be a shame if something bad happened to it. like a little piece of space junk going the other way.

346 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:47:47pm

re: #342 Mattand

LOL, it's late.

Well, yeah, it's fun to gently poke at fellow Lizards. I just don't like the malicious shit. No place for it.

But when softballs are lobbed, I can't resist.

Have sweet dreams this evening!

347 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:47:58pm
348 Achilles Tang  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:49:15pm

re: #345 Mich-again

Hey that' a nice satellite you have there. It's be a shame if something bad happened to it. like a little piece of space junk going the other way.

Tell the Chinese they can use it for target practice and screw up low orbit with trash as they have already done.

349 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:49:16pm

re: #347 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

Thank God. Now Richard Grenell can sleep more securely tonight. /

350 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:49:20pm

re: #345 Mich-again

Hey that' a nice satellite you have there. It's be a shame if something bad happened to it. like a little piece of space junk going the other way.

They might say that, we wouldn't. Use an sort of ASAT weapon on the Nork satellite and you'd break it up into tiny pieces, most of which would be dangerous to other satellites.

351 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:51:10pm
352 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:51:43pm

Choose Your Own Voters
The GOP is already plotting how to marginalize urban voters in the next election.
By David Weigel
Updated Tuesday, Dec. 11, 2012, at 6:52 PM ET

353 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:52:40pm

Then of course there is the fact that their satellite could be trouble if it carries a hi-resolution camera and works correctly. Such a system could pose the problem of someone able to photograph military bases or other sensitive sites from above and then sell the photos to terrorists or other rogue regimes.

354 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:53:22pm
355 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:53:35pm

re: #353 Dark_Falcon

Such a system could pose the problem of someone able to photograph military bases or other sensitive sites from above and then sell the photos to terrorists or other rouge regimes.

Oh! You cad.

356 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:53:55pm
357 Mattand  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:55:20pm

re: #350 Dark_Falcon

They might say that, we wouldn't. Use an sort of ASAT weapon on the Nork satellite and you'd break it up into tiny pieces, most of which would be dangerous to other satellites.

Ain't that the truth. The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe podcast talked about space debris a while back, when the International Space Station (or whatever its actual name is) had to maneuver to avoid some garbage.

Something the size of a screw (or maybe an actual screw) would have taken the whole station out. Absolutely amazing.

358 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:55:47pm

re: #355 dragonath

Oh! You cad.

I goofed. Post edited.

359 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:57:11pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

The threat from one Nork missile would be minimal. Our ABMs almost certainly would shoot it down.

We don't have a working ABM system, and pretending we do is not going to help us.

360 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:58:18pm

We respect sovereignty until we don't.

361 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:58:40pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

The threat from one Nork missile would be minimal. Our ABMs almost certainly would shoot it down.

I wouldn't be so sure. If it comes to it the North Koreans aren't going to go out of their way to make things easy like our tests do. They won't spin stabilize a warhead, slap a transponder on it and feed us the in flight telemetry.

362 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:59:36pm

re: #347 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

Oh, horse shit. It's 55 year old tech. Provocative is homing torpedo with a 100 mile range.

363 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:59:37pm

South Korea says their Aegis radar picked it up right away.

The three-stage rocket was launched at 9:51 a.m. from the country's northwestern region, and its first stage was separated at 9:52 a.m. The first stage passed over the northernmost island of Baengnyeong one minute later and flew west of Japan's Okinawa at around 9:58 a.m., Kim said.

Bet that makes Japan feel real good

364 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:00:54pm

re: #362 austin_blue

Oh, horse shit. It's 55 year old tech. Provocative is homing torpedo with a 100 mile range.

We'll all be dead soon if we don't mobilize the troops.

365 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:02:08pm

re: #364 Gus

We'll all be dead soon if we don't mobilize the troops.

Someone tell the GOP they have oil and they'll raise the debt ceiling so we can invade.

366 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:03:33pm

re: #365 Kragar

Someone tell the GOP they have oil and they'll raise the debt ceiling so we can invade.

Piece of cake. Three weeks tops.

367 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:05:55pm

re: #366 Gus

Piece of cake. Three weeks tops.

Dick Cheney told Tim Russert the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan might cost $80 billion. He was off by a factor of 30 or so..

368 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:06:24pm

BTW, the name of the North Korean satellite translates out to something like "Lode Star".

Feel free to make your Spaceballs puns now.

369 Kragar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:10:43pm

re: #368 dragonath

BTW, the name of the North Korean satellite translates out to something like "Lode Star".

Feel free to make your Spaceballs puns now.

That was Lone Star.

370 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:13:19pm

re: #367 Mich-again

Dick Cheney told Tim Russert the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan might cost $80 billion. He was off by a factor of 30 or so..

This is all meh to me though. We can yell and scream about North Korea all we want and tomorrow we'll be licking the boots of dictatorial Saudi and Bahranian kings. SNAFU

371 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:13:39pm

re: #369 Kragar

I know...

372 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:14:59pm

re: #313 dragonath

What would you call someone who spent his family inheritance- all the accumulated capital, in one generation? Yet that is what we are doing with the Earth, and it's resources.

All I got was this lousy t-shirt.

373 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:15:39pm

re: #329 Gus

If they really got a satt up this puts a wrench on extra sanctions or violations.

So much for the people arguing with me that N.Korea couldn't possibly get a payload to the U.S. for years and years yet just a couple of months ago. Hmm...if they can orbit something then they can de-orbit it anyplace they want can't they?

374 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:17:01pm

re: #350 Dark_Falcon

They might say that, we wouldn't. Use an sort of ASAT weapon on the Nork satellite and you'd break it up into tiny pieces, most of which would be dangerous to other satellites.

Something we bitched loudly about when the Chinese started testing their new ASAT's by actually shooting old satellites.

375 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:17:32pm

re: #359 Obdicut

We don't have a working ABM system, and pretending we do is not going to help us.

These folks have a different point of view.

376 Gus  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:18:38pm

re: #373 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So much for the people arguing with me that N.Korea couldn't possibly get a payload to the U.S. for years and years yet just a couple of months ago. Hmm...if they can orbit something then they can de-orbit it anyplace they want can't they?

I'm neither worried nor laughing. I find them illogical. Yes, I come from a culture that opposes them yet are also illogical. Drink!

377 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:24:16pm

IF YOU LIBERALS HADN'T STOPPED REAGAN FROM BUILDING THE SDI THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED

378 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:25:15pm

re: #373 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So much for the people arguing with me that N.Korea couldn't possibly get a payload to the U.S. for years and years yet just a couple of months ago. Hmm...if they can orbit something then they can de-orbit it anyplace they want can't they?

Not exactly. Bringing something down precisely where you want it isn't so simple.

379 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:26:57pm

re: #378 Four More Tears

Not exactly. Bringing something down precisely where you want it isn't so simple.

Yeah, math is hard...

/sheesh give it a rest.

380 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:27:48pm

re: #375 Political Atheist

These folks have a different point of view.

No they don't. They're realists. They know how often the system fails even under ideal conditions.

381 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:34:43pm

re: #378 Four More Tears

Just to be clear I was not talking about pinpoint accuracy, but with a Nuke threat you don't need that, do you? I'm also not trying to fear monger, just stating the obvious, which is if they can orbit a payload then they can hit us.

Anywhere within 20 miles of N.Y. City would be just fine with them I'm sure. Besides it is the threat that counts towards negotiations with them not the actual delivery of a payload.

382 abolitionist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:42:58pm

re: #373 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So much for the people arguing with me that N.Korea couldn't possibly get a payload to the U.S. for years and years yet just a couple of months ago. Hmm...if they can orbit something then they can de-orbit it anyplace they want can't they?

The ability to put an object into low earth orbit implies being able (with only a little more energy and control) to put it anywhere onto the earth's surface as far north or south of the equator as the latitude of its launch point, altho with constraints on the timing for the targetting. Moderately more energy than that bare minimum relaxes constraints on timing and targeting.

383 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:50:55pm

re: #361 goddamnedfrank

I wouldn't be so sure. If it comes to it the North Koreans aren't going to go out of their way to make things easy like our tests do. They won't spin stabilize a warhead, slap a transponder on it and feed us the in flight telemetry.

Even so, we've got the ability to target with multiple interceptors, from multiple platforms (silo based and SM-3). Against one missile? Yeah, I'd say we can take it. And yes, I'd bet my life on that.

384 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:52:09pm

re: #383 Dark_Falcon

Even so, we've got the ability to target with multiple interceptors, from multiple platforms (silo based and SM-3). Against one missile? Yeah, I'd say we can take it. And yes, I'd bet my life on that.

Again, this is unrealistic. We've had plenty of times where a single-missile test resulted in failure, even under ideal conditions.

385 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:57:08pm

Didn't that one jam too?

386 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 10:30:41pm

re: #384 Obdicut

Again, this is unrealistic. We've had plenty of times where a single-missile test resulted in failure, even under ideal conditions.

But in this scenario any such single missile would have multiple interceptor targeted at it, plus the SM-3s. You're talking about a Nork missile evading four interceptors from two separate systems. Not gonna happen.

387 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 10:38:50pm

re: #386 Dark_Falcon

But in this scenario any such single missile would have multiple interceptor targeted at it, plus the SM-3s. You're talking about a Nork missile evading four interceptors from two separate systems. Not gonna happen.

Sure it can. I have no idea why you think it can't. Each of those systems experiences failures. Having all four fail at once is likely.

388 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 10:52:49pm

re: #280 Amory Blaine

So I suppose the next move is open carry in all 50 states? What's next for the NRA?

Lasers. 8 o'clock, Day 1.

389 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 10:56:20pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

The threat from one Nork missile would be minimal. Our ABMs almost certainly would shoot it down.

And if those fail Chevy Chase can smash the guidance control panel with a rock.
//

390 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 6:32:47am

re: #380 Obdicut

No they don't. They're realists. They know how often the system fails even under ideal conditions.

I read over a lot of their site. Spoke to a technician formerly on the EKV warhead killer. They say they have an imperfect working system that is getting further development. The tech tells me it does work just fine but is very difficult to produce. Or convert to a true production version. But the working prototypes that are deployed do function.


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