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Witness Says Fox News Contributor Steven Crowder Goaded Union Protesters

Obviously
Wingnuts • Views: 25,032

According to a witness to Steven Crowder’s nasty little stunt at the Michigan protest yesterday, he was provoking and insulting demonstrators, deliberately trying to goad them into violence.

Knowing how the Fox News/Breitbart gang love to stage these kinds of fake incidents to picture their targets as violent thugs, it was already pretty obvious. But now a witness has confirmed it.

Ken Spitzley, a state agriculture department employee, told HuffPost that he walked to the protest at the state Capitol during a break from work and that he witnessed Crowder getting in protesters’ faces and goading them.

“He was just after everybody,” said the 56-year-old Spitzley, a procurement technician whose workplace is represented by the United Auto Workers. “There was no question he was there just to start a fight, to start some kind of trouble.”

According to Spitzley, Crowder had an exchange with two pro-union men wearing blue jeans, hard hats and Carhartt clothing. One of them asked Crowder what he did for a living, according to Spitzley.

“He said, ‘I sell soap. I should sell you some,’” Spitzley said, quoting Crowder.

Spitzley said he did not witness the punching incident or the exchange leading up to it. But in Spitzley’s estimation, Crowder “wasn’t going to go home until he got punched.”

UPDATE at 12/12/12 2:51:13 pm

Crowder has staged similar stunts before, as Adam Shriver points out here: Fox News Steven Crowder & Americans for Prosperity Use Breitbart-Style Film Editing to Show “Union Thug Brutality”.

When BlogCon (a conservative blogging conference) was held in Denver, Crowder and a group of angry right-wingers surrounded Occupy Denver protesters and screamed at them. Crowder later claimed he was “assaulted” while part of a large, screaming mob surrounding five people. Here are the relevant videos:

Crowder getting in someone’s face:

Youtube Video

Crowder apparently pushing a lady from behind, then acting like she attacked him (see especially after the 3 minute mark):

Youtube Video

He then claimed she “assaulted” him:

Youtube Video

Crowder going on Fox News to whine about how “violent” occupy Denver was:

Youtube Video

It’s almost as if they do the same thing every time. Huh.

Jump to bottom

208 comments

1 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:46:56pm

and, again I say, stupidity like Crowders should be painful.

2 erik_t  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:47:16pm

Go fuckin' figure.

3 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:47:34pm

Steven Crowder: wingnut rodeo clown.

4 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:48:35pm

Douchebag

5 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:48:36pm

A hatchling posted a link to a blog that says Crowder may have swung first.

6 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:49:00pm

re: #2 erik_t

Go fuckin' figure.

Whodathunkit.

“There was no question he was there just to start a fight, to start some kind of trouble.”

7 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:49:03pm

Said this in a previous thread: this is going to be an approach we can expect to see more of - provoking, threatening or commiting acts of violence, and when these bring about a reaction - wheter justified or not - the reactions weill be held up as proof that union/government/black panther (or whatever) thugs are out to get all us law-abiding white citizens...

8 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:51:35pm

The Union member that punched Crowder should be hailed as 'Man of the Year'.

9 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:53:45pm

re: #8 Dr. Matt

The Union member that punched Crowder should be hailed as 'Man of the Year'.

that's taking it too far, nobody should be making martyrs of these dickheads, no matter how much they are asking for it.

10 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:53:57pm

After leaving this mornings mini-Breitbart outrage on LGF, I hopped in my van to go do my biz.

Low and behold, ARN news is leading off with the Union violence destroying a poor hot dog vendor.

An hour later on Beck leads off with the same in Maximum Beck style.

Another faux controversy created in real time right before our very eyes, propagated by the motivated ideologues.

11 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:54:12pm

re: #8 Dr. Matt

The Union member that punched Crowder should be hailed as 'Man of the Year'.

No. You can't do this kind of stuff. Not only is it highly illegal, you're giving Crowder and his idiot friends exactly what they want.

12 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:54:24pm

Fox News host: ‘Waterboarding? More like awesomeboarding!’

During a discussion about the film “Zero Dark Thirty” on Tuesday night, Fox News host Greg Gutfeld decided he would rename the internationally banned torture technique known as “waterboarding.” His term? “Awesomeboarding.”

The response was elicited by a question about a review of “Zero Dark Thirty” written by New York Magazine critic David Edelstein, who presents the movie as brilliant, but also nakedly pro-torture.

“Like I always say: Waterboarding? More like awesomeboarding!” Gutfeld exclaimed.

He went on: “The unspeakable truth here is, everybody wants torture on the table,” he insisted. “If you ask one person one question, say your child or your spouse was abducted and they had a person in custody and they had the information and time was running out — would you mind if we use every means available to extract information?”

The conservative opinion host has a history of defending the Bush administration’s torture program, but “awesomeboarding” is a new one, even for him.

The former comedian exclaimed in 2007 that waterboarding “might be torture,” but professed to love it “more than life itself” because “people I hate” detest it.

“That’s my recipe for life,” he explained. “If The New York Times, NPR, Tim Robbins, Sean Penn and Hugo Chavez hate something, then it must be awesome. So I cherish waterboarding. I want to make it our national sport, our national bird. I want to make the waterboard the state flower of Vermont, instead of the Birkenstock.’

13 erik_t  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:54:26pm

re: #7 Sol Berdinowitz

Said this in a previous thread: this is going to be an approach we can expect to see more of - provoking, threatening or commiting acts of violence, and when these bring about a reaction - wheter justified or not - the reactions weill be held up as proof that union/government/black panther (or whatever) thugs are out to get all us law-abiding white citizens...

It's like these douchecanoes watched a Gandhi documentary through a funhouse mirror.

14 jaunte  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:55:25pm
Crowder, who suffered a chipped tooth in the incident

This is a date which will live in infamy on Fox at least a month.

15 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:56:39pm

re: #14 jaunte

This is a date which will live in infamy on Fox at least a month.

Torah, Torah, Torah! /

16 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:56:44pm

And because the guy's connected to the UAW, we'll be told he's a "union sympathizer" who no doubt is lying through his teeth to sully Mr. Crowder's good name...sorry, I couldn't type that last part with a straight face.

17 RadicalModerate  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:57:16pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

A hatchling posted a link to a blog that says Crowder may have swung first.

From looking at the previous thread on this, it appears that there's evidence that Crowder may well have sucker-punched the guy who apparently attacked him, and the video clearly shows him getting up from being knocked down.
[Link: willyloman.wordpress.com...]

Above is a still taken from the extended video Fox ran on the Sean Hannity show last night. Notice the extended crawler they ran over the bottom 3rd of the screen in an effort to hide Steven’s hand. It ran so fast you can barely make out what happened, but I took it frame by frame and as I pointed out last night when I first saw the edited video, Steven clearly hits the man, I think he sucker punched him, in order to provoke a response.

The still above is a screen capture taken from that video. You can see Steven’s arm is outstretched and he pulls it back quickly. It’s outstretched in the direction and approximate height of the demonstrator’s head. He’s also got his right hand up covering the right side of his face in what appears to be a defensive posture taught in fight training and probably a conditioned action by Steven when he throws a punch.

In the video you can hear someone saying “oh!” as the demonstrator goes down onto the ground as if someone just got hit.

It was an unprovoked attack, but not the one that FoxNews and the rightwing shriekers claim, but the guy was actually FIGHTING BACK against Crowder's assault.

18 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:57:52pm

re: #15 Gus

Torah, Torah, Torah! /

Proof the Jews were behind Pearl Harbor.
///

19 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:58:33pm

re: #10 Kronocide

After leaving this mornings mini-Breitbart outrage on LGF, I hopped in my van to go do my biz.

Low and behold, ARN news is leading off with the Union violence destroying a poor hot dog vendor.

An hour later on Beck leads off with the same in Maximum Beck style.

Another faux controversy created in real time right before our very eyes, propagated by the motivated ideologues.

Give it a day. Hot dogs being present will lead to the union thugs being pro-Halal and thus anti-hot dog (and anti-hot dog bun sorts will be there too, but hidden). From there it will be obvious that they are pro-radical Islamists bringing creeping Sharia to the rest of Michigan and that their protests are simply an attempt to intimidate silence from true Americans before the truth about *Benghazi* is revealed.
(draws breath)

20 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 1:58:43pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

No. You can't do this kind of stuff. Not only is it highly illegal, you're giving Crowder and his idiot friends exactly what they want.

Since when is self-defense "highly illegal"?

21 Zamb  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:00:27pm

Wow, a lone conservative activist was trying to goad people in a large worked up crowd. Never would have guessed that.

22 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:01:05pm

re: #19 Feline Fearless Leader

Give it a day. Hot dogs being present will lead to the union thugs being pro-Halal and thus anti-hot dog (and anti-hot dog bun sorts will be there too, but hidden). From there it will be obvious that they are pro-radical Islamists bringing creeping Sharia to the rest of Michigan and that their protests are simply an attempt to intimidate silence from true Americans before the truth about *Benghazi* is revealed.
(draws breath)

Um... uh huh... oh, BENGHAZI!

23 jaunte  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:01:37pm

There is no real historical balance of violence between labor on one side, and bosses and their shills on the other.

This Michigan right-to-work (for lower wages) legislation is just another small bit added to the weight of imbalance between the friends of ALEC and the Kochs, and the working middle class.

24 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:01:39pm

re: #21 Zamb

Wow, a lone conservative activist was trying to goad people in a large worked up crowd. Never would have guessed that.

"worked up" is a poor choice of words since these were obviously lazy lackabouts seeking a free handout.

25 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:01:43pm
26 researchok  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:02:31pm

re: #21 Zamb

I wish you a long and healthy life.

Wherever that may be.

// (I really need to remember those sarc tags).

27 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:02:42pm

Pope starts tweeting, comedy ensues

Pope Benedict XVI’s debut on Twitter got off to a bumpy start on Wednesday, with mockery outweighing piety in reaction to the first tweets from the leader of the world’s 1.1 billion Catholics.

The pope’s second tweet — “How can we celebrate the Year of Faith better in our daily lives?” — prompted a string of tongue-in-cheek- answers.

“With some nice cold chocolate milk. And the Lord?” wrote one user tweeting in Portuguese with the handle @tensoblog.

Another distinctly sin-minded user, @binnie, joked: “Hookers and blow.”

28 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:02:45pm

re: #17 RadicalModerate

Now that you mention it. Crowder is leaning down and retracting his arm from the man who is on the ground. Crowder must have thrown the man down to the ground as someone exclaims "uh oh." The man gets back up and sock Crowder in the face. Looks like Crowder might have punched this guy first.

29 erik_t  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:03:21pm

re: #27 Kragar

Pope starts tweeting, comedy ensues

I'm going to start my own church! With blackjack! And hookers!

You know what, forget the church!

30 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:04:00pm

re: #29 erik_t

I'm going to start my own church! With blackjack! And hookers!

You know what, forget the church!

How much is titanium getting on the recycling market right now?

31 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:04:22pm

What a fucking clown.

32 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:05pm

re: #27 Kragar

“With some nice cold chocolate milk. And the Lord?” wrote one user tweeting in Portuguese with the handle @tensoblog.

Another distinctly sin-minded user, @binnie, joked: “Hookers and blow.”

Bacon, Beer, and Babes in Bikinis.

33 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:11pm

re: #22 Kronocide

Um... uh huh... oh, BENGHAZI!

McCain's going to bust out of another choke collar if you keep saying that.

34 erik_t  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:19pm

re: #18 Kragar

Proof the Jews were behind Pearl Harbor.
///

Toga, Toga, Toga

Proof the Greeks were behind Pearl Harbor.

35 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:43pm

re: #34 erik_t

Toga, Toga, Toga

Proof the Greeks were behind Pearl Harbor.

That was my other option. /

36 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:44pm

re: #32 Dr. Matt

Bacon, Beer, and Babes in Bikinis.

Babes in Beer-Soaked Bacon Bikinis?

//

37 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:50pm

re: #12 Kragar

Fox News host: ‘Waterboarding? More like awesomeboarding!’

To steal from Lincoln on slavery, I feel an urge to try waterboarding on those who like it so much.

38 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:05:57pm

re: #34 erik_t

Toga, Toga, Toga

Proof the Greeks were behind Pearl Harbor.

Was that before, or after, the Germans hit it?

39 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:07:18pm

re: #36 Targetpractice

Babes in Beer-Soaked Bacon Bikinis?

We have a winner.

40 Alexzander  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:07:26pm

I watched Hannity yesterday.

You could tell the producers were pissed that the Portland shooting interupted their coverage of Crowder's assault. They still only spent a couple of minutes on the shooting before going back to the Union slandering.

41 erik_t  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:08:20pm

re: #38 Feline Fearless Leader

Was that before, or after, the Germans hit it?

That was the other postable version, but I wasn't sure how many would get it. Bless you, sir.

42 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:08:53pm

re: #28 Gus

Now that you mention it. Crowder is leaning down and retracting his arm from the man who is on the ground. Crowder must have thrown the man down to the ground as someone exclaims "uh oh." The man gets back up and sock Crowder in the face. Looks like Crowder might have punched this guy first.

All I know is, looking at the video again, for a guy who got "sucker punched" and was caught unaware, Crowder pretty quickly had his hands up in a submissive posture before the guy had even gotten to his feet.

43 Mattand  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:09:21pm

re: #29 erik_t

I'm going to start my own church! With blackjack! And hookers!

You know what, forget the church!

I'm not wild about his "kill all humans" policy, but every so often Bender hits the nail on the head. Usually with someone else's head.

44 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:09:57pm

re: #40 Alexzander

I watched Hannity yesterday.

You could tell the producers were pissed that the Portland shooting interupted their coverage of Crowder's assault. They still only spent a couple of minutes on the shooting before going back to the Union slandering.

Of course. Can't let reality get in the way of a good old fashioned anti union jerk off.

45 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:10:24pm

Punch or not the GOP has dishonored the government with their ramrod of anti-worker laws. Some in their own party, have expressed dismay at the way this was done.

46 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:11:20pm

re: #28 Gus

Now that you mention it. Crowder is leaning down and retracting his arm from the man who is on the ground. Crowder must have thrown the man down to the ground as someone exclaims "uh oh." The man gets back up and sock Crowder in the face. Looks like Crowder might have punched this guy first.

Yeah, it looks suspicious. But I don't think you can really make any definite conclusions from that video; it's not clear enough.

If Crowder did sucker punch the guy, someone would have seen it. It was right in the middle of a bunch of people.

47 Mattand  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:11:59pm

re: #41 erik_t

That was the other postable version, but I wasn't sure how many would get it. Bless you, sir.

Forget it, he's on a roll.

48 erik_t  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:12:39pm

re: #43 Mattand

I'm not wild about his "kill all humans" policy, but every so often Bender hits the nail on the head. Usually with someone else's head.

Bender may have personal desires to kill all humans, but he's assured me that if elected he would autocratize from the middle.

I, for one, welcome our new flame-belching shiny-assed overlord.

49 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:14:00pm

re: #46 Charles Johnson

Yeah, it looks suspicious. But I don't think you can really make any definite conclusions from that video; it's not clear enough.

If Crowder did sucker punch the guy, someone would have seen it. It was right in the middle of a bunch of people.

Crowder is saying "you just assaulted me" before the guy gets back up. So it sounds like Crowder is coming up with a reason for knocking the guy to the ground. Maybe the guy shoved Crowder who then punched the guy and he fell to the ground got up and clocked Crowder. Or something.

50 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:14:11pm

re: #45 Amory Blaine

Punch or not the GOP has dishonored the government with their ramrod of anti-worker laws. Some in their own party, have expressed dismay at the way this was done.

Yeah I remember seeing some of the quotes about it. Hell, John L. Lewis who may as well been the most popular man in my grandparents' homes when they were growing up was a Republican. Granted that was a long time ago but you've got to think there are a bit of Republicans who are alienated by the GOP's union busting bullshit.

51 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:14:46pm

re: #46 Charles Johnson

Yeah, it looks suspicious. But I don't think you can really make any definite conclusions from that video; it's not clear enough.

If Crowder did sucker punch the guy, someone would have seen it. It was right in the middle of a bunch of people.

Even if Crowder didn't engage in a sucker punch or other physical means of provoking a response, he went out there looking to provoke a fight. If I did this at a Tea Party rally, the same wingnuts presently calling Crowder a hero would want my ass arrested for inciting violence.

52 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:15:16pm

re: #43 Mattand

I'm not wild about his "kill all humans" policy, but every so often Bender hits the nail on the head. Usually with someone else's head.

Bender: Hey. What kind of party is this? There's no booze and only one hooker.

53 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:16:17pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

Even if Crowder didn't engage in a sucker punch or other physical means of provoking a response, he went out there looking to provoke a fight. If I did this at a Tea Party rally, the same wingnuts presently calling Crowder a hero would want my ass arrested for inciting violence.

That tent shouldn't have even been there. At least have cops around it doing the protest counter-protest thing.

54 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:17:15pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

Even if Crowder didn't engage in a sucker punch or other physical means of provoking a response, he went out there looking to provoke a fight. If I did this at a Tea Party rally, the same wingnuts presently calling Crowder a hero would want my ass arrested for inciting violence.

Exactly. The idiot even admitted to being a provocateur. How "fair and balanced" of him.

55 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:18:02pm

Crowder = Westboro Baptist Church.

56 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:18:24pm

Why was that tent even there and why was it populated with wingnuts? Celebrating the union bashing?

57 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:20:48pm

re: #56 Amory Blaine

Why was that tent even there and why was it populated with wingnuts? Celebrating the union bashing?

And why was a so-called Fox "journalist" antagonizing Union members from the tent?

58 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:20:58pm

re: #46 Charles Johnson

If Crowder did sucker punch the guy, someone would have seen it. It was right in the middle of a bunch of people.

And cameras were everywhere. I'll believe it when video shows up. Just like the allegations that the tent collapse was an inside job. Lots of people are making claims but there had to be 1,000's of people there with cameras, yet nobody has pics or video.

59 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:21:16pm

GOP Pollster: Republicans Have ‘Run Out Of’ White Voters

Republicans need to dramatically improve their standing with Latino voters or risk becoming a “regional party” of disaffected whites, according to a study released Wednesday by a GOP pollster.

“Republicans have run out of persuadable white voters,” Resurgent Republic pollster Whit Ayres and the conservative Hispanic Leadership Network’s Jennifer Korn concluded in a memo detailing the results of the study.

Resurgent Republic surveyed Latino voters in four states — New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, and Florida — and concluded that the GOP brand was on life support. Respondents said Republicans did not respect their community’s values and concerns by a 51-44 margin in Florida, 54-40 in New Mexico, 59-35 in Nevada, and 63-30 in Colorado. By contrast Democrats were seen as respectful by a dominant 67-28 spread in Florida, 72- 23 percent in both New Mexico and Nevada, and 76-20 in Colorado.

“If Republicans achieve 40 percent or more of Hispanics nationally, they can elect conservative Republicans to national office,” the memo authors wrote. “Settling for a quarter or less of the Hispanic vote nationally will relegate Republicans to a regional party with few national prospects.”

60 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:23:59pm

re: #54 Dr. Matt

Your link doesn't work.

61 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:24:35pm

re: #59 Kragar

GOP Pollster: Republicans Have ‘Run Out Of’ White Voters

Having your party's nominee spout idiotic shit like self-deport, hiring the writer of the controversial Arizona law, and having an insulting ad that compares POTUS to Chavez, Castro, and Che will do that. Is it any wonder why Hispanic voters see the GOP as not respecting their community's values? It's been downhill for them with that group ever since W Bush got rejected by his own party on immigration reform. Feel weird praising W Bush here but he seemed to get what a lot of Republicans don't seem to get about Latino voters and that's treating them with respect.

62 Tigger2  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:25:05pm

re: #59 Kragar

GOP Pollster: Republicans Have ‘Run Out Of’ White Voters

They sure shouldn't expect this one to vote for them, ever.
I'm to the point I hate everything they stand for.

63 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:26:23pm

re: #55 Kronocide

Crowder = Westboro Baptist Church.

God Hates Unions /

64 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:27:40pm

re: #61 HappyWarrior

Having your party's nominee spout idiotic shit like self-deport, hiring the writer of the controversial Arizona law, and having an insulting ad that compares POTUS to Chavez, Castro, and Che will do that. Is it any wonder why Hispanic voters see the GOP as not respecting their community's values? It's been downhill for them with that group ever since W Bush got rejected by his own party on immigration reform. Feel weird praising W Bush here but he seemed to get what a lot of Republicans don't seem to get about Latino voters and that's treating them with respect.

Yes, Hispanics lean toward social conservatism and "family values", but to appeal to them you have to recognize and respect their support of strong schools, strong communities, and strong workers' rights, which they see as the key to success.
The GOP is totally gung-ho on the socon aspects, but totally lacking in all the rest.

65 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:27:46pm

re: #60 wrenchwench

Your link doesn't work.

Sorry. It's fixed now.

66 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:28:49pm

re: #61 HappyWarrior

Having your party's nominee spout idiotic shit like self-deport, hiring the writer of the controversial Arizona law, and having an insulting ad that compares POTUS to Chavez, Castro, and Che will do that. Is it any wonder why Hispanic voters see the GOP as not respecting their community's values? It's been downhill for them with that group ever since W Bush got rejected by his own party on immigration reform. Feel weird praising W Bush here but he seemed to get what a lot of Republicans don't seem to get about Latino voters and that's treating them with respect.

Not to mention that many Hispanics are white. Republicans can't afford to lose any whites, even if they're Hispanic.

67 gwangung  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:31:17pm

re: #64 Sol Berdinowitz

Yes, Hispanics lean toward social conservatism and "family values", but to appeal to them you have to recognize and respect their support of strong schools, strong communities, and strong workers' rights, which they see as the key to success.
The GOP is totally gung-ho on the socon aspects, but totally lacking in all the rest.

Well, it's even more basic than this. One, don't use stupid inflammatory stuff like the Chavez, Che, Castro poster. It doesn't appeal to Hispanics. Two, remember that the countries Hispanics came from are often class stratified, with wealthy families in cahoots with the government to keep themselves wealthy at the expense of the poor. Which means that ANY policy that holds the poor down are not going to be a winner with Hispanics.

68 RadicalModerate  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:32:24pm

re: #46 Charles Johnson

Yeah, it looks suspicious. But I don't think you can really make any definite conclusions from that video; it's not clear enough.

If Crowder did sucker punch the guy, someone would have seen it. It was right in the middle of a bunch of people.

I'm going to throw out a phrase that's well-known in hockey circles:

"It's not the first punch thrown that gets noticed, but the second one."

69 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:33:06pm

More BS from Michigan.

70 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:33:47pm

I imagine Hispanics like myself are confused when they hear "pro family" from the GOP but then they hear about cutting education, looking down on gays(even if you are anti gay marriage, that stinks to high heaven if you come from a very family based culture), and I think the anti-union stuff hurts too. I believe Hispanic Americans have some of if not the highest membership numbers in the labor movement.

71 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:35:09pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

Not to mention that many Hispanics are white. Republicans can't afford to lose any whites, even if they're Hispanic.

I still remember a childhood friend's father bitching about the "Mexicans." Made me grateful for my own Dad who worked with many immigrants from all over the world who taught me and my brothers to respect people of all backgrounds.

72 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:35:27pm

re: #69 Gus

More BS from Michigan.

[Embedded content]

Michigan Advances One Of The Nation’s Most Extreme Abortion Bans

The measure represents one of the nation’s most far-reaching abortion restrictions. When Michigan lawmakers first took up HB 5711 over the summer, hundreds of protesters rallied against the massive 45-page, GOP-sponsored legislation. HB 5711 would impose a host of new restrictions on women seeking to terminate a pregnancy — such as requiring doctors to prove that their patients haven’t been “coerced” into having the procedure, limiting abortion access for women in rural areas, and imposing guidelines for disposing of fetal remains in the same way that the state disposes of dead bodies. The legislation also seeks to mandate unnecessarily and complicated regulations that could force the state’s abortion clinics out of business.

In addition to the recently approved anti-union legislation that Michigan lawmakers pushed through their current lame duck session, state legislators have also been busy advancing a slew of extreme anti-choice initiatives over the past week. The Michigan Senate approved measures that will prevent private insurance companies from offering coverage for abortion services and allow doctors to refuse to perform abortions based solely on their personal beliefs.

73 palomino  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:35:44pm

One anti-union provacateur gets punched at a pro-union rally. And now the right would have you believe that Michigan union workers are the new Weather Underground. What a hysterical load of horseshit.

Oh, and a tent was pulled down. BFD.

74 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:35:55pm

re: #65 Dr. Matt

Sorry. It's fixed now.

Pretty smart hatchling!

75 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:35:59pm

re: #67 gwangung

Well, it's even more basic than this. One, don't use stupid inflammatory stuff like the Chavez, Che, Castro poster. It doesn't appeal to Hispanics. Two, remember that the countries Hispanics came from are often class stratified, with wealthy families in cahoots with the government to keep themselves wealthy at the expense of the poor. Which means that ANY policy that holds the poor down are not going to be a winner with Hispanics.

Yes, and the "American Dream" they (and most other immigrants) have come to pursue is not living free off welfare and handouts, it's about working hard and educating their kids so they can get better jobs and climb up the social ladder.
Creating a system where education costs more and more while jobs are paying less and less is making a mockery of the dream they have come to pursue and pisses a lof of people off.

76 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:37:06pm

The AFP were just trying to get unions into their Big Tent.

Maybe they should rethink the Big Tent strategy?

77 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:39:00pm

re: #73 palomino

One anti-union provacateur gets punched at a pro-union rally. And now the right would have you believe that Michigan union workers are the new Weather Underground. What a hysterical load of horseshit.

Oh, and a tent was pulled down. BFD.

My response to is like Charlie Pierce and Charles both noted today, namely that it's in the vein of the Chris Rock routine that ends with "I understand." I don't think they should have pulled down that tent, but I understand.

78 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:39:13pm

If he was really assaulted without any reason, shouldn't Crowder have filed a police report?

Has he said anything about that? None of the articles online mention whether he got the cops involved.

79 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:39:14pm

The problem with the GOP is let's face is they've become a Know-Nothing party for the 21st century. They're not about expanding people's rights and freedoms but limiting them and that has very little appeal to many especially in the groups growing in this country.

80 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:39:15pm

re: #72 Kragar

Michigan Advances One Of The Nation’s Most Extreme Abortion Bans

imposing guidelines for disposing of fetal remains in the same way that the state disposes of dead bodies.

Since we can't know which used feminine hygiene products contain fertilized eggs, we will be holding services for all of them, and marking the burying places with headstones, or putting the ashes in nice urns.

81 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:40:32pm

There they go with the jobs they promised to work on. Same shit happened here in Virginia after we stupidly gave the GOP a majority in the state senate. Good thing Bolling may go third party and ruin Cuccinnelli.

82 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:42:44pm

re: #72 Kragar

Michigan Advances One Of The Nation’s Most Extreme Abortion Bans

Here I thought Michigan was actually not as bad as I used to think it was back in the 90s. They're hell bent on going back in time.

83 dragonath  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:44:19pm

Whoa, Michigan is making Walker's Wisconsin look like a beacon of moderation.

84 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:45:29pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson

If he was really assaulted without any reason, shouldn't Crowder have filed a police report?

Has he said anything about that? None of the articles online mention whether he got the cops involved.

Only thing I heard was his little "challenge" last night on Hannity, where he told the guy who punched him that he challenges him to either surrender himself to the cops to face charges or to fight Crowder in an MMA match.

Does that really sound like a guy who got savaged by a bunch of union thugs?

85 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:46:03pm

re: #84 Targetpractice

Only thing I heard was his little "challenge" last night on Hannity, where he told the guy who punched him that he challenges him to either surrender himself to the cops to face charges or to fight Crowder in an MMA match.

Does that really sound like a guy who got savaged by a bunch of union thugs?

Sounds like a guy looking for trouble. What a fucking idiot.

86 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:46:29pm

re: #84 Targetpractice

Only thing I heard was his little "challenge" last night on Hannity, where he told the guy who punched him that he challenges him to either surrender himself to the cops to face charges or to fight Crowder in an MMA match.

Does that really sound like a guy who got savaged by a bunch of union thugs?

You can play the victim or play the tough guy, but going for both is kind of a reach.

87 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:46:46pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson

If he was really assaulted without any reason, shouldn't Crowder have filed a police report?

Has he said anything about that? None of the articles online mention whether he got the cops involved.

"officer this man punched me after I insulted his mother. I demand you arrest him!"

88 palomino  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:47:13pm

re: #77 Targetpractice

My response to is like Charlie Pierce and Charles both noted today, namely that it's in the vein of the Chris Rock routine that ends with "I understand." I don't think they should have pulled down that tent, but I understand.

Yeah, I'm not trying to justify any violence or vandalism, but the right wing media getting the vapors over this is disingenuous bullshit.

89 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:47:15pm

Dear Michigan,

When hearing about how backwards and stuck in the past the South is, the proper response is not "Challenge accepted".

90 dragonath  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:47:39pm

Republicans in traditionally Democratic states are turning out to be the craziest of all. They finally get the chance to govern, then BAM! Wingnut feeding frenzy!

91 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:49:38pm

re: #90 dragonath

Republicans in traditionally Democratic states are turning out to be the craziest of all. They finally get the chance to govern, then BAM! Wingnut feeding frenzy!

They're like ex-smokers. :D

92 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:49:45pm

re: #90 dragonath

Republicans in traditionally Democratic states are turning out to be the craziest of all. They finally get the chance to govern, then BAM! Wingnut feeding frenzy!

Well the good news about them doing it in traditionally Democratic states is there's a bigger chance for a backlash but repealing legislation I imagine is more harder to passing it. Kind of like losing weight I guess.

93 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:50:18pm

re: #90 dragonath

Republicans in traditionally Democratic states are turning out to be the craziest of all. They finally get the chance to govern, then BAM! Wingnut feeding frenzy!

must be like an inferiority compley compared to their Dixie bretheren...

94 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:50:45pm

re: #92 HappyWarrior

Well the good news about them doing it in traditionally Democratic states is there's a bigger chance for a backlash but repealing legislation I imagine is more harder to passing it. Kind of like losing weight I guess.

which has positive aspects, like ACA...

95 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:51:57pm

re: #94 Sol Berdinowitz

which has positive aspects, like ACA...

Yeah, this is true. I believe you could say the say thing about DADT. DADT not DOMA.

96 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:52:02pm

re: #90 dragonath

Republicans in traditionally Democratic states are turning out to be the craziest of all. They finally get the chance to govern, then BAM! Wingnut feeding frenzy!

Because they've got a narrow window for that shit before people wake up and realize why they habitually vote against Republicans in those states. There's a lot of liberals who have probably spent every day since Election Day '10 kicking themselves for thinking that "punishing" Democrats by staying home or voting third party was a good idea.

97 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:53:28pm

What the Democrats ought to work on is getting their supporters out in off year elections. Tip O'Neil was right. All politics is local. Kills me knowing that Cuccinnelli won re-election for state senate by less than 100 votes a few years back and that seat is now held by a Democrat.

98 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:54:37pm
99 Slap  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:55:42pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

A hatchling posted a link to a blog that says Crowder may have swung first.

Um, did anybody notice that llink is to a Truther blog? I clicked a couple of links just to be sure, and hoo-boy....

100 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:57:55pm

See the update above - Crowder has pulled similar stunts before.

101 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:59:36pm

re: #99 Slap

Um, did anybody notice that llink is to a Truther blog? I clicked a couple of links just to be sure, and hoo-boy....

I should have noticed, It's right up at the top in the center.

102 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 2:59:51pm

re: #99 Slap

Um, did anybody notice that llink is to a Truther blog? I clicked a couple of links just to be sure, and hoo-boy....

I missed that one, but yup ... it's a 9/11 Truther blog, all right.

103 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:00:44pm

re: #100 Charles Johnson

See the update above - Crowder has pulled similar stunts before.

Pushing people, then claiming that they attacked him? Guess he wasn't expecting that "union thug" to get back up and crack him across the jaw.

104 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:03:10pm

re: #100 Charles Johnson

See the update above - Crowder has pulled similar stunts before.

These guys are worse than Breitbart ever was.

105 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:05:33pm
106 RadicalModerate  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:08:38pm

re: #105 Gus

[Embedded content]

Freepers are already celebrating.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

107 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:11:47pm

re: #106 RadicalModerate

Freepers are already celebrating.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

...

Hurr, hurr. I hope he's getting ObummerCare. Hurr, hurr.

108 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:13:17pm

re: #106 RadicalModerate

Freepers are already celebrating.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Them's the freeps.

109 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:14:44pm

re: #108 HappyWarrior

Them's the freeps.

Wait a minute!

Wouldn’t wish this on anyone. FReepers we’re better than that. He’s not Pol Pot, he’s just Governor Moonbeam. Prayers?

110 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:16:16pm

re: #109 Gus

Wait a minute!

Well, it's nice to see some moments of decency coming from them.

111 Hawaii69  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:23:05pm

Concerning the appearance that crowder swung first: Accordind the
Crowder, the other guy was getting up after tripping over a tent stake.
Have to wonder why the footage was edited, though.

Unfortunately, some morbid curiousity made me turn to FOX News (and I don't watch ANY cable news) to see if they were talking about it. I landed right in the middle of Crowder making his "MMA Challange" on Hannity...which was just painful to watch. All I could think of was Adam, from Workaholics.

...because there's no way this guy is serious. Is he?

112 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:25:11pm

re: #109 Gus

FReepers we’re better than that

This statement is not supported by the available evidence.

113 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:27:04pm

re: #106 RadicalModerate

Freepers are already celebrating.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

My God. Cancer is a real sore spot for me right now, and for people to actually celebrate another human being getting that disease - right now, I wouldn't even wish that on freaking Hitler. My apologies for Godwining the thread, and you may resume your regularly scheduled discussion.

114 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:28:13pm

re: #109 Gus

Wait a minute!

As the more virulent Freepers, including JimRob, descend upon the few halfway decent members who don't wish Jerry Brown an excruciating death and run them off.

115 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:30:15pm

re: #113 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

My God. Cancer is a real sore spot for me right now, and for people to actually celebrate another human being getting that disease - right now, I wouldn't even wish that on freaking Hitler. My apologies for Godwining the thread, and you may resume your regularly scheduled discussion.

Hang in there. Agree with your sentiment .. I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemy.

116 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:33:14pm

re: #115 HappyWarrior

Hang in there. Agree with your sentiment .. I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemy.

It's just enough to make me want to reach through the Internet and punch people in the face. Same with the guy I found who believes that cancer is a conspiracy by doctors to make themselves a bucketload of money in false treatments.

117 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:33:53pm

re: #99 Slap

Um, did anybody notice that llink is to a Truther blog? I clicked a couple of links just to be sure, and hoo-boy....

Heh. Inside job! False flag! Not surprising. Also some anti-Israel propaganda too.

118 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:34:52pm

Has anyone tested the tent samples for thermite paint?

119 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:35:35pm

Here we go again.

120 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:36:08pm

re: #119 Gus

Here we go again.

Get the camera ready!

121 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:36:14pm

re: #116 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

It's just enough to make me want to reach through the Internet and punch people in the face. Same with the guy I found who believes that cancer is a conspiracy by doctors to make themselves a bucketload of money in false treatments.

Oh man. I totally feel ya there. Being on the autistic spectrum, I have to deal with the Jenny McCarthys of the world who make the stupid vaccine claims.

122 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:36:36pm

re: #116 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

It's just enough to make me want to reach through the Internet and punch people in the face. Same with the guy I found who believes that cancer is a conspiracy by doctors to make themselves a bucketload of money in false treatments.

I'm sorry, what? Cancer is a conspiracy?

My grandmother, my grandfather, my mother and soon my father will die from it. That guy needs a reality refresher.

123 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:37:22pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Has anyone tested the tent samples for thermite paint?

A tent wouldn't just collapse like that unless it was sabotaged from the inside.

124 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:37:24pm

re: #122 b_sharp

I'm sorry, what? Cancer is a conspiracy?

My grandmother, my grandfather, my mother and soon my father will die from it. That guy needs a reality refresher.

Yeah, my grandmother is the one who's currently dealing with it. My other grandfather already died from it. It's personal and for someone to make flippant statements about a terrible, destructive disease like that - UGH.

125 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:37:59pm

re: #119 Gus

Here we go again.

On our own?
Going down the only road we've ever known?

126 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:38:42pm

re: #125 Kragar

On our own?
Going down the only road we've ever known?

Like drifters, we were born to walk alone?

127 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:39:04pm

My godmother/great aunt died from Leukemia. I was 14 and I don't think I had ever cried that much. Just about the kindest person you'd ever meet. Never forgot a birthday or event. She was great.

128 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:40:07pm

re: #126 Targetpractice

Like drifters, we were born to walk alone?

I clutch my pearl necklace

129 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:40:24pm

re: #123 Kragar

A tent wouldn't just collapse like that unless it was sabotaged from the inside.

Fire never melted steel!

130 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:41:03pm

re: #126 Targetpractice

Like drifters, we were born to walk alone?

I've made up my mind, I aint wasting no more time

131 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:42:01pm

re: #130 Kragar

I've made up my mind, I aint wasting no more time

Here I go again!

132 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:42:13pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

Fire never melted steel!

You can see Satan's face in the folds of the sagging canvas.

133 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:43:14pm

re: #131 TedStriker

Here I go again!

Just another heart in need of rescue?

134 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:43:43pm

re: #132 Kragar

You can see Satan's face in the folds of the sagging canvas.

All the Israeli citizens were warned to leave the tent an hour before.
/Yeesh, this is a walk down memory lane

135 Kragar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:44:55pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

All the Israeli citizens were warned to leave the tent an hour before.
/Yeesh, this is a walk down memory lane

I've made a model tent using Kleenex and coffee stirrers and can prove the collapse wouldn't have occurred unless it was a controlled demolition.

136 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:45:49pm

re: #135 Kragar

I've made a model tent using Kleenex and coffee stirrers and can prove the collapse wouldn't have occurred unless it was a controlled demolition.

CLUNKITY-CLUNK!

137 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:46:25pm

re: #106 RadicalModerate

Freepers are already celebrating.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

A whole regatta of douche canoes.

138 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:46:53pm

re: #135 Kragar

I've made a model tent using Kleenex and coffee stirrers and can prove the collapse wouldn't have occurred unless it was a controlled demolition.

I'm putting together a petition of 200 architects for tent collapse truth.

139 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:47:40pm

re: #126 Targetpractice

Like drifters, we were born to walk alone?

No, we Carry On:

140 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:48:00pm

re: #135 Kragar

I've made a model tent using Kleenex and coffee stirrers and can prove the collapse wouldn't have occurred unless it was a controlled demolition.

If you slow down the footage, you see it wasn't a union thug who brought down the tent, it was Elvis.

/

141 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:48:55pm

re: #135 Kragar

I've made a model tent using Kleenex and coffee stirrers and can prove the collapse wouldn't have occurred unless it was a controlled demolition.

Thankfully, LGF has the good sense to beware Troofers bearing gifts.

142 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:49:12pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

If you slow down the footage, you see it wasn't a union thug who brought down the tent, it was Elvis.

/

I selectively interviewed dozens of eyewitnesses who testify that the punch went north of the tent pole.

143 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:49:31pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, we Carry On:

[Embedded content]

Why can't we Float On?

144 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:49:53pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

If you slow down the footage, you see it wasn't a union thug who brought down the tent, it was Elvis.

/

I analyzed the globular clusters in the creencap from that blog and I'm pretty sure Big foot threw the first punch.

145 dragonath  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:50:07pm

Wow, I wasn't expecting the Hobbit to get so hammered on by the critics. It's down to 74% on the Tomatometer.

146 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:50:31pm

Ravi Shankar & Bud Shank

Improvisations on the Theme Music from Pathar Panchali

147 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:50:37pm

re: #144 Killgore Trout

I analyzed the globular clusters in the creencap from that blog and I'm pretty sure Big foot threw the first punch.

Wow, globular clusters. That's one I haven't heard for a very long time.

148 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:51:27pm

re: #147 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Wow, globular clusters. That's one I haven't heard for a very long time.

Mr. Holland's Opus.

149 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:51:47pm

re: #145 dragonath

Wow, I wasn't expecting the Hobbit to get so hammered on by the critics. It's down to 67% on the Tomatometer.

Well, look at it this way, it's doing way, WAY better than the gun-wank fantasy that is the Red Dawn remake.

150 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:52:07pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Mr. Holland's Opus.

Comment #17.

151 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:52:34pm

re: #150 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Comment #17.

We do not speak of it!

152 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:53:01pm

re: #151 Targetpractice

We do not speak of it!

Oh, it's alright, it's been years, it's not like anything's going to hap---NO CARRIER

153 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:53:25pm

re: #146 Decatur Deb

Ravi Shankar & Bud Shank

Improvisations on the Theme Music from Pathar Panchali

[Embedded content]

Great stuff.

154 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:53:53pm

Crowder doesn't exactly make it a secret that he tries to provoke violence. And the more he's encouraged, the more he'll do it. Fox, Drudge, and the others promoting him are playing with fire by doing so.

155 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:54:57pm

My daily dose of Ravi. Found this on youtube when I was looking for something to post on facebook this morning.
156 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:55:58pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Crowder doesn't exactly make it a secret that he tries to provoke violence. And the more he's encouraged, the more he'll do it. Fox, Drudge, and the others promoting him are playing with fire by doing so.

And what happens when Crowder runs across someone who will do more than throw a punch?

157 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:56:33pm

re: #145 dragonath

Wow, I wasn't expecting the Hobbit to get so hammered on by the critics. It's down to 67% on the Tomatometer.

If I remember right the first LOTR movie didn't get such great reviews either. The next two fared better, but this movie has a huge built in fan base. I trust Jackson couldn't have done much wrong with it.

158 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:57:00pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Crowder doesn't exactly make it a secret that he tries to provoke violence. And the more he's encouraged, the more he'll do it. Fox, Drudge, and the others promoting him are playing with fire by doing so.

At this point, inciting riots may be the only way left to deliver the rage rush their addicted audience craves.

159 dragonath  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 3:58:45pm

Eeep, I meant 74%. I linked to that damned Rankin-Bass movie.

Wish it wasn't 3 whole movies though. Seems to be a Peter Jackson trait. Even his early movies are too long.

160 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:00:25pm

Here's a local media article on the Hot Dog guy
Lansing business owner alleges racial abuse, loses equipment in Right to Work protests at state Capitol

His cart was not on-site, Linda said.

She estimates the equipment losses totaled at least $500; other losses include supplies, condiments, coolers and food. He crawled out of the tent.

Tarver, who is black, was also the victim of racially-charged verbal attacks, his wife, Linda, said.

On her Facebook page, she wrote that union protesters called her husband "an Uncle Tom [n-word]" when he attempted to retrieve his equipment from the collapsed tent.

"When he came back to get his stuff, people called him the n-word," she said. "They said he deserved what he got and he was on the wrong side. I think they thought he was part of [Americans for Prosperity]."

But Clint is not a political man, she said; she herself is, and has been involved with Americans for Prosperity.

Community members have rallied in support, raising more than $10,000 to replace Tarver's damaged equipment and offset losses.

Dems have been gracious about it

"Everyone who works in and around the state Capitol knows Clint Tarver as 'the hot dog guy,' a man who is appreciated for his smiles and friendly greetings as much as he is for the food he serves," Katie Carey, press secretary for the House Democratic caucus, said in a statement.

"The House Democratic Caucus was disappointed to learn that some of his equipment was damaged during 'right-to-work' protests yesterday. Violence of any kind is never acceptable, and it's particularly dismaying when it happens to someone so beloved by the Capitol community," she said. "We look forward to supporting Tarver's business and hiring him to cater a caucus lunch next year."

161 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:00:49pm

re: #159 dragonath

Eeep, I meant 74%. I linked to that damned Rankin-Bass movie.

Wish it wasn't 3 whole movies though. Seems to be a Peter Jackson trait. Even his early movies are too long.

As I understand it, splitting up The Hobbit wasn't his original intention, the studio insisted on it.

162 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:01:36pm

re: #161 Targetpractice

As I understand it, splitting up The Hobbit wasn't his original intention, the studio insisted on it.

It's a cash cow. Also, the story is a bit long for a single movie, even compared to the individual books of the LotR trilogy.

163 Tigger2  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:01:56pm

re: #81 HappyWarrior

There they go with the jobs they promised to work on. Same shit happened here in Virginia after we stupidly gave the GOP a majority in the state senate. Good thing Bolling may go third party and ruin Cuccinnelli.

You can't trust Republicans to do anything they say they're going to do.

164 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:03:28pm

re: #161 Targetpractice

As I understand it, splitting up The Hobbit wasn't his original intention, the studio insisted on it.

Well, he could have held firm on keeping it to two movies.

165 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:03:42pm

re: #162 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

It's a cash cow. Also, the story is a bit long for a single movie, even compared to the individual books of the LotR trilogy.

Yeah, the irony is that LotR was published as three separate volumes just due to their length, yet Peter had to cut out a great deal just to get them under 3 hours in length. By contrast, he's spreading The Hobbit, a shorter book compared to its three successors, out in three films just to get everything in.

166 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:06:09pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Here's a local media article on the Hot Dog guy
Lansing business owner alleges racial abuse, loses equipment in Right to Work protests at state Capitol

Dems have been gracious about it

OK, he's on the level. It's bad that his equipment was destroyed and he should be compensated for it.

Steven Crowder, on the other hand, is still full of shit.

167 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:06:25pm

re: #155 HappyWarrior

[Embedded content]


My daily dose of Ravi. Found this on youtube when I was looking for something to post on facebook this morning.

He is not very dead. Daughter Anoushka starts rocking it hard about 9 min. in.

168 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:06:44pm

re: #165 Targetpractice

Yeah, the irony is that LotR was published as three separate volumes just due to their length, yet Peter had to cut out a great deal just to get them under 3 hours in length. By contrast, he's spreading The Hobbit, a shorter book compared to its three successors, out in three films just to get everything in.

As I understand he's also bringing in some pieces from the Silmarillion.

169 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:06:51pm

So I'm working on a story set around 100 years into the future. The atmosphere of the earth has decayed to a point the planet is no longer habitable and most of the world's population has died. The few that survived have taken refuge on four rugged space stations orbiting planets throughout the solar system. The wealthy and powerful have migrated to a high tech colony on Mars.

The story focuses on characters at one of the stations (called Argyle) as he deals with the challenges of day to day life and struggles with memories of an earth long past. Here's an excerpt explaining how Earth fell...

There was no universal consensus as to when the Dark Days actually
began but generally their origin was traced to a period of intense
global upheaval that occurred around 2080.

Early that year the Sun had begun to experience a period of solar
flare activity that was both longer in duration and more severe than
any recorded in history.

The solar storms began to interefere with communications and
electrical systems on Earth. Large parts of the planet, especially
lesser developed nations were plunged into blackness for weeks. This
was one reason the period became known as "Dark".

In addition to the solar flares, there was a sharp increase in methane
emissions across the planet. Methane levels had been increasing
steadily for years but from 2080 to late 2081 they jumped nearly
threefold.

The sudden spike devastated food crops and other agricultural
interests, causing a worldwide food crisis which soon triggered
widespread protests. It wasn't long before the protests became violent
riots.

War soon followed.

From 2083 to 2088 armed conflict enveloped the globe. Initially North
American interests allied with most of the European nations and
certain Asian countries against a coalition consisting of most of the
Middle East as well as parts of Africa, Asia and South America.

By late 2085 the alliances were in shambles and over 500 million were
dead. Soon it became every man for itself. Countries on both sides of
the conflict turned against long time allies in a desperate bid to
control what dwindling resources Earth had left.

March 2087 marked the opening of a grim new chapter in the conflict as
it was on that day the planet plunged into nuclear war.

Iran struck first, unleashing several warheads that obliterated large
chunks of the U.S. East coast.

The Americans responded by virtually wiping Tehran off the map. North
Korea was the next to strike, sending weapons into China, Japan and
India.

China unleashed a barrage of weapons into Europe and Pakistan waged
war with Saudi Arabia and other mideast nations.

By the time the bombs stopped falling the devastation was beyond all
imagination.

Washington D.C. , New York, Dubai, London, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, Hong
Kong, Tel Aviv, Mexico City, Pyongyang, Rio De Janiero...all
destroyed...

Many world leaders and their governments obliterated..

Nearly 2 billion dead.

And that was only the beginning.

(Second post follows)

170 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:07:24pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

He is not very dead. Daughter Anoushka starts rocking it hard about 9 min. in.

[Embedded content]

Norah's pretty good too. Really if I have any regret from grade school, it's not having learned an instrument. Kid brother is learning Sax though and kicking ass and taking names though.

171 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:09:46pm

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

OK, he's on the level. It's bad that his equipment was destroyed and he should be compensated for it.

Steven Crowder, on the other hand, is still full of shit.

In general, yes he is full of shit. I don't trust the the content of his videos and I think he's very unfunny. However, none of that justifies being punched. Was he there to catch some outrageous video of protesters being dicks? Yes and the protesters served his purpose very well.

172 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:10:26pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Here's a local media article on the Hot Dog guy
Lansing business owner alleges racial abuse, loses equipment in Right to Work protests at state Capitol

Dems have been gracious about it

From your link:

The Tarvers agreed not to bill the AFP for the catering, since the organization would need to replace the ruined tent.

WTF? The AFP should pay the hot dog man as agreed. It's not his fault the tent got wrecked.

I'm just suspicious enough to think the AFP hired him to have some diversity in their tent.

173 dragonath  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:10:29pm

re: #161 Targetpractice

Two movies would have been great. Leave it up to movie execs to make demands on a guy who delivered them billions of dollars.

No doubt Jackson's going to have to pad it out by adding a bunch of scenes with Sauron/Necromancer next time around. I wonder where he will find the material for that.

Uh, Thrain? The White Council's assault on Dol Guldur? Maybe a bit on how Saruman finds Isildur's remains, that's in the book Unfinished Tales.

174 Tigger2  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:10:36pm

re: #163 Tigger2

You can't trust Republicans to do anything they say they're going to do.

DF I see you down dinged me for telling the truth about Republicans.
Look at Walker, Snider and other Republican Governors the are doing the opposite of what they ran on, all against the wishes of the people of those states.

175 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:10:36pm

Here's another excerpt from the same character mentioned above recounting his experiences as society collapsed and he and a friend raced to get to one of the shuttle launch sites before it was too late:

As much as possible we stuck to back roads and rural areas as we
headed towards the launch site. The cities were war zones.

The rural areas were dangerous as well, especially with the breakdown
of law enforcement, but we were hoping that two guys in a beat up old
pick up truck with a nearly empty bed wouldn't attract much attention.

I tried to stay calm but unfortunately calm had left the building long
before now. There were few other cars on this stretch. It may have
seemed reasonable to say we were safe for the time being but that was
simply not the case.

The car radio was relatively useless. There were no stations left
broadcasting and the abundance of interference rendered the few
emergency messages on the airwaves a garbled mess.

Every so often though a stray transmission, a single voice would come
in crystal clear even if only for a moment. One in particular would
haunt me for years.

It belonged to a young man, probably early to mid 20s. He was
terrified and desperate...

..."Please, anyone who can here me. I need help...my daughter...my
daughter is dying!...she's only three...she needs medical
attention...an ambulance, a hospital, a nurse...anything.."

He started crying.

"They stole my food and ransacked my house...we have nothing left...I
don't care what happens to me but I don't want my little girl to
die...please help...someone...anyone..."

At that point the message faded into static.

Robert and I looked at each other. Silence filled the truck cabin for
what seemed like hours.

Not long after we heard the message we stopped for a short break. As
soon as I stepped outside I realized how close to home the middle of
nowhere could actually be.

The sky looked dark and menacing, a somewhat unnerving mix of oranges
and grays.

In the distance I heard the sounds of anarchy: tires squealing, a
woman screaming, gunshots, something exploding. This had been the
soundtrack of my life for a week now.

I started coughing harshly. I don't know if the air in the car had
been slightly more tolerable or if my lungs had finally started to
give up on me.

Quickly I grabbed an oxygen container from the bed of the truck,
placed it over me and inhaled deeply. In a few moments I could breathe
comfortably again. But it wouldn't stay that way long and our oxygen
supply was extremely low.

"Alright, let's get out of here" said Robert as he flicked his
cigarette into the trees a few feet away.

We silently got back in the truck and continued driving into the
night...or day...or whatever the heck you wanted to call this mess in
the sky.

I slept for the next two hours. Not a deep sleep, but a mildly
refreshing one at least. I probably would have slept longer I had not
been jolted awake by the slamming of the brakes and the truck coming
to a sudden stop.

"Oh no."

A key part of the story focuses on a political movement who apparently believes that, despite commonly accepted reports and data, Earth is in fact not lost. The "Birthright" movement is considered a fringe group, but eventually the main character receives some compelling info suggesting the group might not be as crazy as they seem.

As it turns out, there are still humans on earth.

That's as much as I'm giving away now. I'm hoping to turn it into a multi-book series, but I had an idea of writing a short prologue that sells for say 0.99 (talking ebooks here) to build interest in the story.

I'm hoping to release the first book by next spring.

176 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:10:37pm

re: #169 dragonfire1981

Unless some of those are shotguns from Chekov that are being hidden in a school of red herring, that's too much detail for a history lesson.

177 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:10:50pm

re: #163 Tigger2

You can't trust Republicans to do anything they say they're going to do.

I feel ya but here's the catch. Bolling even though he ranked higher than McDonnell in Kaine's administration. We elect governor, lt governor, and AG separately. So even though McDonnell ranked lower being AG than Bolling who was Lt Governor. He let McDonnell run for governor first with the understanding that he'd have a clean path to running for governor this year. Of course, Cuccinnelli threw a wrench in those plans when he decided to become the Tea Party's favorite AG. Part of it is I think Bolling's ego is hurt but I also think that part of him feels that Cuccinnelli is too nuts for the state.

178 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:11:27pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

In general, yes he is full of shit. I don't trust the the content of his videos and I think he's very unfunny. However, none of that justifies being punched. Was he there to catch some outrageous video of protesters being dicks? Yes and the protesters served his purpose very well.

But would they even have been dicks had he not provoked them?

179 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:12:40pm

re: #172 wrenchwench

From your link:

WTF? The AFP should pay the hot dog man as agreed. It's not his fault the tent got wrecked.

I'm just suspicious enough to think the AFP hired him to have some diversity in their tent.

His wife is Linda Lee Tarver. She's a member of the Michigan GOP and is their "Ethnic Chair."

Linda Lee Tarver is married to Clint and has two adult children, Jennifer and Terrance. Linda Lee is a senior project manager with the state of Michigan and holds a bachelor’s degree in business management and a master’s degree in industrial/organizational psychology. She is pursuing a doctorate in management and organizational leadership. Linda Lee has been involved in local and state party politics for many years. She serves as Ethnic Vice Chair of the Michigan Republican Party, former Chairwoman of the Ingham County Republican Party, member of the 8th Congressional District Executive committee, and advisory board member of The Frederick Douglass Foundation of Michigan. Linda Lee is involved with the Mid-Michigan Republican Women’s Club and is the vice chair and founding member of the Alliance of Black Republicans. In 2008 she served as a National Delegate to the Republican National Convention and in 2009, Linda Lee was appointed by the state Senate Majority Leader to serve on the Lansing Promise Zone Authority Board. Aside from her political involvement, Linda Lee serves her community as a board member for the Old Newsboy Association and is a member and teacher at Mt. Zion All Nations Bible Church.

180 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:14:10pm

re: #179 Gus

It's still entirely possible that someone used racial abuse against him, which would be shitty. I hope the dude gets left alone by the media in general.

181 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:14:14pm

re: #176 kirkspencer

Unless some of those are shotguns from Chekov that are being hidden in a school of red herring, that's too much detail for a history lesson.

I was basically trying to communicate the scale and a rough time frame of the destruction. Even if the reader doesn't retain all of it I figure he or she will easily grasp the "ultimate destruction" theme that ties everything together.

182 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:14:49pm

re: #177 HappyWarrior

I feel ya but here's the catch. Bolling even though he ranked higher than McDonnell in Kaine's administration. We elect governor, lt governor, and AG separately. So even though McDonnell ranked lower being AG than Bolling who was Lt Governor. He let McDonnell run for governor first with the understanding that he'd have a clean path to running for governor this year. Of course, Cuccinnelli threw a wrench in those plans when he decided to become the Tea Party's favorite AG. Part of it is I think Bolling's ego is hurt but I also think that part of him feels that Cuccinnelli is too nuts for the state.

What could McDonnell do if the base was hot on Cuccinnelli, sabotage his own man? You can't always stop someone from jumping the line.

183 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:19:00pm

re: #168 kirkspencer

As I understand he's also bringing in some pieces from the Silmarillion.

Evening Lizards. Would have to reread the book (The Hobbit). But if memory serves me right, some of what is covered in the Silmarillion does come up in Bilbo's education in the Lore/History of Middle Earth in The Hobbit. Particularly in the songs.

184 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:19:03pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

What could McDonnell do if the base was hot on Cuccinnelli, sabotage his own man? You can't always stop someone from jumping the line.

He wasn't just McDonnell's man. He was the establishment's man. They didn't know that Cuccinnelli was going to become what he has because I guess McDonnell thought they could control his craziness. I've got no love for McDonnell but he seems to live in reality more than the Cooch does.Honestly, it's all very confusing to me since the state GOP will often nominate their candidates via convention not primary. And that convention process favors more conservative candidates. It's how a nutcase House of Delegates member Bob Marshall nearly got the nomination for Senate over a former governor and RNC Chair, Jim Gilmore.

185 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:19:52pm

re: #181 dragonfire1981

I was basically trying to communicate the scale and a rough time frame of the destruction. Even if the reader doesn't retain all of it I figure he or she will easily grasp the "ultimate destruction" theme that ties everything together.

Cool, and it's got the bones of what you intend. Further, if you're not done don't change it. Just when you finish and head back in for editing, well, this is one of the common flaws I see in sf when I put on my editor hat. Some authors can get away with it for one reason or another, some can't. So if your first reader(s) tells you it's dragging, this sort of thing is a possible cause.

btw, the second segment is pretty good. There are things I want to pick on but not unless/until I saw the rest of the book.

186 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:23:17pm

re: #179 Gus

His wife is Linda Lee Tarver. She's a member of the Michigan GOP and is their "Ethnic Chair."

Crony capitalism?

187 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:28:52pm

So yeah, I just saw the trailer for The Lone Ranger, and as interesting as the character may seem...I still have a very hard time taking seriously the idea of Johnny Depp as an Indian.

188 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:31:16pm

re: #187 Targetpractice

So yeah, I just saw the trailer for The Lone Ranger, and as interesting as the character may seem...I still have a very hard time taking seriously the idea of Johnny Depp as an Indian.

Depp is Tonto? I thought he was playing the Ranger!

Of course, I only saw it on a tiny playback window on Facebook, so it was kinda hard to tell who was who.

189 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:32:00pm

re: #187 Targetpractice

So yeah, I just saw the trailer for The Lone Ranger, and as interesting as the character may seem...I still have a very hard time taking seriously the idea of Johnny Depp as an Indian.

Some Indians were kind of pissed about it too.

They hired a New Mexican Apache to play Tonto as a boy, and they just assumed he had ridden horses before. When they found out he never had, they delayed taping while he learned, then they had to delay taping some more when he broke his arm.

190 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:32:06pm

re: #188 makeitstop

Depp is Tonto? I thought he was playing the Ranger!

Of course, I only saw it on a tiny playback window on Facebook, so it was kinda hard to tell who was who.

Yeah, Depp's playing Tonto. Or, as I like to think of him, Jack Sparrow if he ever detoxed.

191 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:33:18pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Some Indians were kind of pissed about it too.

They hired a New Mexican Apache to play Tonto as a boy, and they just assumed he had ridden horses before. When they found out he never had, they delayed taping while he learned, then they had to delay taping some more when he broke his arm.

Wow. Racist much?

192 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:35:39pm

Hey everyone.

So is there a payment from Fox/Hannity to Crowder? I betcha there is.

193 BongCrodny  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:37:09pm

Just wanted to toss in a friendly reminder if it hasn't been done yet that the benefit concert for Sandy victims is on a number of websites and TV stations.

Springsteen's on right now. :-)

194 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:39:35pm

re: #191 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Wow. Racist much?

Stupid assumptions, at least. The kid had read for some other part months earlier, then they thought of him for this part. At least he's a real Indian (Mescalero Apache). It's Depp that some Native Americans are pissed about. I hear he plays Tonto in whiteface, ironically.

195 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:39:38pm

re: #192 Stanghazi

Hey everyone.

So is there a payment from Fox/Hannity to Crowder? I betcha there is.

Ah yeah, I'd forgotten that part. Not only did Crowder announce his "challenge" last night, there's a bounty out there for the arrest and conviction of Crowder's "attackers."

196 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:41:55pm

re: #194 wrenchwench

...not that he plays him ironically... I probably can't fix that coherently.

197 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:43:56pm

Oh, and like clockwork, the Breitbartians are bitching because CBS, NBC, and ABC aren't covering the "union thuggery" like Fox valiantly is.

198 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:45:04pm

re: #197 Targetpractice

Oh, and like clockwork, the Breitbartians are bitching because CBS, NBC, and ABC aren't covering the "union thuggery" like Fox valiantly is.

As predictable as the sunrise.

199 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:45:35pm

re: #197 Targetpractice

Oh, and like clockwork, the Breitbartians are bitching because CBS, NBC, and ABC aren't covering the "union thuggery" like Fox valiantly is.

Breaking. Those networks aren't going to report on a minor scuffle at a union protest.

200 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:45:41pm
201 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:46:24pm

re: #200 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

All shit they think voters will have forgotten about in two years.

202 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:48:02pm

re: #200 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

Lovely.So nice to know that they have their priorities in order. Asshats.

203 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:48:51pm

re: #200 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

And Sharia!!

204 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:50:02pm

re: #203 Gus

And Sharia!!

[Embedded content]

This is what happens when you give the Republicans the majority in a state legislature. Shariah stupidity ahoy.

205 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:51:45pm

re: #203 Gus

And Sharia!!

[Embedded content]

Oh look!

Agema's bill would prevent "foreign law" from being applied if it would "result in a violation of constitutional rights." Now, if you're asking yourself why you need a bill stating that your constitutional rights can't be violated if you already have a Constitution, or how this bill would help if your constitutional rights are already being violated, then you've just realized why this bill is stupid. Agema's bill is similar to model legislation produced by David Yerushalmi, the conservative attorney who once urged the US to declare war on Islam and referred to liberal Jews as "parasites."

206 Gus  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:52:32pm
207 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 5:51:50pm

Night Lizards.

208 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 9:18:16pm

re: #75 Sol Berdinowitz

Yes, and the "American Dream" they (and most other immigrants) have come to pursue is not living free off welfare and handouts, it's about working hard and educating their kids so they can get better jobs and climb up the social ladder.
Creating a system where education costs more and more while jobs are paying less and less is making a mockery of the dream they have come to pursue and pisses a lof of people off.

Which are some of the reasons why the number of immigrants coming over the border is apparently in a decline.


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