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1 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:24:18pm

The problem is is that some idiots will see this and think its for real.

2 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:30:00pm

They should have gotten Karl Rove to speak.

3 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:33:29pm

re: #2 Kragar

They should have gotten Karl Rove to speak.

He's not been bankable as a marquee speaker since Roger Alies largely banned him from Fox News.

4 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:33:48pm

I'm now hooked on American Horror Story. Totally berserk EC comics-style stories. About halfway through the 1st season.

5 Jaerik  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:36:39pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

I've worked for Silicon Valley firms through a good chunk of my career, and there is no real inflection or adaptation point that causes people to sell out their users. The users are sold out from the moment the company launches. You can't even get angel funding unless the potential for sell out is implicitly or explicitly defined. Otherwise, you'll get no investors.

All you're doing is ignoring your intention to sell them out until you have enough of them to justify the time and expense you put in. That's why, when the time comes, there is no real moment of existential angst or moral conflict. It's always been "just business."

With very rare exception -- primarily the startups designed specifically around charity -- there are no more plucky young entrepreneurs in the Valley who set out to change the world, and are only then later confronted by the reality of business. The industry, finance, education, and culture of the area are too intertwined and far too mature to allow for that level of naivete.

That's why I don't think people will "think it's for real," so much as roll their eyes over the characterization that selling out your users is somehow enough of a "thing" to even warrant satire.

6 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:40:31pm

You know, usually my sense of "there be for the Grace of God go I" keeps me from gloating about the misfortunes of others... but not this time!

Sarah Palin's daughter-in-law 'fine with' divorce as she gets custody of 1-year-old daughter... and husband Track walks away with his guns

Couple wed in May 2011 on a mountain in Alaska
Britta Hanson controversially gave birth to daughter Kyla three months later
Britta confirmed they've filed for divorce
It's another domestic disaster for Sarah Palin who is a strong advocate for the traditional family unit and no sex before marriage

Sorry, but its really hard not to gloat when watching a "Palin FAIL".

7 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:40:54pm

Only watch the Onion series "Porking Across America" if you really like disturbing, Kafka-esque horror.

It's one of the most disturbing things I've ever watched.

8 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:41:41pm

re: #5 Jaerik

What do you mean by selling out in this context?

9 freetoken  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:46:57pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I had this story open in a tab:


Sarah Palin's son Track divorcing wife

The truth is, and many of her adoring Tea Party followers are blind to this, that Sarah Palin and her family are a whole lot more like "Hollywood" than they can ever admit.

10 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:48:32pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

You know, usually my sense of "there be for the Grace of God go I" keeps me from gloating about the misfortunes of others... but not this time!

Sarah Palin's daughter-in-law 'fine with' divorce as she gets custody of 1-year-old daughter... and husband Track walks away with his guns

Sorry, but its really hard not to gloat when watching a "Palin FAIL".

Man, they didn't even get a TV show before they got cancelled.

11 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:48:56pm

re: #5 Jaerik

...

That's why I don't think people will "think it's for real," so much as roll their eyes over the characterization that selling out your users is somehow enough of a "thing" to even warrant satire.

Agreed. Businesses are most often created and motivated to act with absolute ruthlessness with respect to the bottom line, especially if there is VC investment involved. "Selling out the customers" in this context is a logical impossibility --- like talking about the spherical cube.

Of course, if a person acts like such a business, sociopathy is the usual verdict. Strange that we accept collective sociopathy across a huge chunk of the private sector.

12 Jaerik  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:51:52pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

I... don't, really. That's the thing.

"Selling out" implies some kind of moment in time where you suddenly decide to change your plan. I'd venture that in most folks' definition, you can only "sell out" if you have different goals and then flip later.

My point was more that there is very little "flipping" left in the Valley. Nobody gets angel funding, or even gets out of college anymore, without knowing you need a plan to monetize your users. The cynicism is built-in, not learned at some later time and then "adapted" to. There's just varying degrees of how long folks ignore the monetization plan in order to build enough of a user base to enact it later.

It's why the Onion bit will probably just get head-scratches from most Valley business folks I know. A satire on why folks decide to "sell out" only really makes sense if you assume they haven't "sold out" to begin with.

13 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:52:04pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

You know, usually my sense of "there be for the Grace of God go I" keeps me from gloating about the misfortunes of others... but not this time!

Sarah Palin's daughter-in-law 'fine with' divorce as she gets custody of 1-year-old daughter... and husband Track walks away with his guns

Sorry, but its really hard not to gloat when watching a "Palin FAIL".

This is not a Palin problem, it's a society problem. People just aren't willing to work at marriages anymore. We do a great job of glamorizing the search for love but there's a decided lack of examples of strong marriages in mainstream culture today.

On top of that I think a lot of couples give up too easy. My wife and I have been married for almost 5 years now and I am still madly in love with her and have a strong marriage but I've also put a lot of work into it. You can't expect a relationship to survive on autopilot nor can you think a person will magically change after the ring goes on their finger.

Marriage is a commitment and a roller coaster ride. It is pleasure and it is pain, it is sacrifice and it is reward.

14 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:53:28pm

re: #11 EPR-radar

Agreed. Businesses are most often created and motivated to act with absolute ruthlessness with respect to the bottom line, especially if there is VC investment involved. "Selling out the customers" in this context is a logical impossibility --- like talking about the spherical cube.

Of course, if a person acts like such a business, sociopathy is the usual verdict. Strange that we accept collective sociopathy across a huge chunk of the private sector.

There's a great documentary that was (and perhaps still is) on Netflix called The Corporation. The film spent time exploring, among other things, the sociopathic tendencies of major businesses.

15 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:54:10pm

Will the Fish sell out?

16 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 6:59:21pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

You know, usually my sense of "there be for the Grace of God go I" keeps me from gloating about the misfortunes of others... but not this time!

Sarah Palin's daughter-in-law 'fine with' divorce as she gets custody of 1-year-old daughter... and husband Track walks away with his guns

Sorry, but its really hard not to gloat when watching a "Palin FAIL".

Hypocrite begets hypocrites. That is all. Oh and sister sarah did not mention this grandchild publicly. Ever. She still pisses me off.

17 freetoken  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:00:43pm

So, about what does our society concern itself ?

Most Viewed Online Stories of 2012: Survey Results

If the Secret Service sex scandal wasn't spicy enough for you, the most widely viewed story at Gawker, the New York-based blog that focuses on celebrities and the media industry, was Kate Middleton's (Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge) topless photos, originally published by the French magazine Closer . That salacious post was followed in the total number of unique visitors by the Hulk Hogan Sex Tape , which was originally published by TMZ.

And speaking of wrestlers:

WWE HALL OF FAMER: I Pay Women to Smash My Face with Their Boots ... AND I LOVE IT!!!

Which can only be outdone by...

Nick Cannon Masturbates To His Wife Mariah Carey’s Song “Hero”


Salacious never worries about a "sell-out".

18 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:03:18pm

re: #17 freetoken

Here, have something for your "why we're doomed" file:

Study: Climate change predictions from 1990 have come true

In 1990, a team of leading climate scientists predicted that the average global temperature would increase by 0.55°C by 2010, and 1.1°C by 2030.

Now, a pair of researchers have deemed that estimate to be accurate, more than twenty years later.

19 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:04:56pm

re: #13 dragonfire1981

This is not a Palin problem, it's a society problem. People just aren't willing to work at marriages anymore. We do a great job of glamorizing the search for love but there's a decided lack of examples of strong marriages in mainstream culture today.

On top of that I think a lot of couples give up too easy. My wife and I have been married for almost 5 years now and I am still madly in love with her and have a strong marriage but I've also put a lot of work into it. You can't expect a relationship to survive on autopilot nor can you think a person will magically change after the ring goes on their finger.

Marriage is a commitment and a roller coaster ride. It is pleasure and it is pain, it is sacrifice and it is reward.

Beautiful post. Problem is the Palin kids failed to use birth control. Young people marriage...young people divorce. With split child. USA

20 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:06:25pm

re: #16 Stanghazi

Hypocrite begets hypocrites. That is all. Oh and sister sarah did not mention this grandchild publicly. Ever. She still pisses me off.

She annoys me as well.

21 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:07:30pm

re: #19 Stanghazi

Beautiful post. Problem is the Palin kids failed to use birth control. Young people marriage...young people divorce. With split child. USA

Yeah, but how would you feel, having to interact with a mother-in-law who has trouble forming complete sentences?

22 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:07:47pm
23 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:09:41pm

So a friend sends me this kos link-Eric Erickson has a "oh my they really are just after money and power" moment?! But no attribution or source.

WTH is this? Hoax?

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Hell hath no fury like a conservative scorned. Erick Erickson woke with a throbbing headache at 3 in the morning, screwed and deserted by the GOP leadership, and he's screaming like a howler monkey.

The present Republican leaders in Washington, instead of hiding under a rock, have taken to standing on the rock and demanding conservatives self flagellate. Neither John Boehner nor Mitch McConnell are visionaries. They are survivors. They survive by recognizing the biggest threat to them and trying to befriend it or neutralize it.

24 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:09:49pm

Evening Lizardim.

25 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:12:49pm

re: #23 Political Atheist

So a friend sends me this kos link-Eric Erickson has a "oh my they really are just after money and power" moment?! But no attribution or source.

WTH is this? Hoax?

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Hell hath no fury like a conservative scorned. Erick Erickson woke with a throbbing headache at 3 in the morning, screwed and deserted by the GOP leadership, and he's screaming like a howler monkey.

Ok. Not gonna link but it's on his blog.

26 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:13:22pm

re: #13 dragonfire1981

You can't expect a relationship to survive on autopilot nor can you think a person will magically change after the ring goes on their finger.

I made that mistake once.

27 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:14:52pm

re: #25 Political Atheist

Ok. Not gonna link but it's on his blog.

It's real. Better wingnut tears than usual, especially in the comments. 8/10.

The best comment I saw was "Tax cuts don't increase the deficit" as if it were an axiom of revealed truth.

28 jaunte  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:15:18pm
29 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:15:55pm

re: #27 EPR-radar

It's real. Better wingnut tears than usual, especially in the comments. 8/10.

The best comment I saw was "Tax cuts don't increase the deficit" as if it were an axiom of revealed truth.

They sure make it harder to pay the fucker off.

30 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:16:42pm
31 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:18:15pm

re: #28 jaunte

[Embedded content]

From a GOP flack, quoted in the article "...there is no reason defending the law should be seen as a GOP project."

Oh really? Pull the other one, why don't you.

32 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:19:13pm

Holy hell, I just found out a friend of mine's grandmother was one of the Night Witches. What a badass gramma to have.

33 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:19:43pm

Charles,
How are you with a link to this direct at Red State? Not sure how to proceed here.

34 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:20:14pm

re: #27 EPR-radar

It's real. Better wingnut tears than usual, especially in the comments. 8/10.

The best comment I saw was "Tax cuts don't increase the deficit" as if it were an axiom of revealed truth.

Treating their beloved talking points as axiomatic is the only way conservatives get anywhere. They can't afford to have people actually sit and think about them.

35 kirkspencer  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:21:39pm

re: #23 Political Atheist

So a friend sends me this kos link-Eric Erickson has a "oh my they really are just after money and power" moment?! But no attribution or source.

WTH is this? Hoax?

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Hell hath no fury like a conservative scorned. Erick Erickson woke with a throbbing headache at 3 in the morning, screwed and deserted by the GOP leadership, and he's screaming like a howler monkey.

The title is "The Republicans have Failed the Nation." If you go to redstate and search for the title you'll find it. (Like others I won't link, but if you want to read it I'd like it if you can find it.)

36 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:22:30pm

re: #33 Political Atheist

Not a problem.

37 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:23:22pm

re: #33 Political Atheist

Charles,
How are you with a link to this direct at Red State? Not sure how to proceed here.

Baby Erik is very angry that the adults didn't go along with his insanity, so now he's banging his spoon on his hi-chair and calling them 'traitors'.

Loser.

38 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:23:44pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

Thank you. Paging in due course.

39 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:23:47pm

re: #32 Obdicut

Holy hell, I just found out a friend of mine's grandmother was one of the Night Witches. What a badass gramma to have.

That is so fucking cool!

For those who don't know, the Night Witches were a WWII Soviet bombing unit that specialized in night missions. Which was a tricky proposition back then.

40 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:27:55pm

re: #39 Romantic Heretic

That is so fucking cool!

For those who don't know, the Night Witcheswere a WWII Soviet bombing unit that specialized in night missions. Which was a tricky proposition back then.

Tricky even for the RAF and Luftwaffe, who made a specialty of nighttime bombing with the best in available navigational and bomb-sighting technology. The Soviets' air force barely qualified as modern on its best days; reading the Wikipedia article gives some indication as to just how hard-core these ladies had it. I learned something today.

41 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:28:05pm

re: #13 dragonfire1981

29 yrs this coming March 15th. And yes, we have had to and continue to, work for it. But it has been worth every single minute.

42 allegro  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:30:25pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

Baby Erik is verry angry that the adults didn't go along with his insanity, so now he's banging his spoon on his hi-chair and calling the 'traitors'.

Loser.

I'm confused. Didn't you vote for those same guys?

43 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:31:02pm

re: #40 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Tricky even for the RAF and Luftwaffe, who made a specialty of nighttime bombing with the best in available navigational and bomb-sighting technology. The Soviets' air force barely qualified as modern on its best days; reading the Wikipedia article gives some indication as to just how hard-core these ladies had it. I learned something today.

They also had the good fortune not to have to face the Luftwaffe's first line night fighters such as the HE-219.

But what they did was still very gutsy and required incredible skill.

44 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:31:06pm

re: #40 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

I noticed the other all female regiments and did a little digging. Found this.

45 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:33:33pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

They also had the good fortune not to have to face the Luftwaffe's first line night fighters such as the HE-219.

But what they did was still very gutsy and required incredible skill.

I recall one of the Luftwaffe's star night fighters shot down twelve British aircraft over a twenty four hour period; seven between midnight and dawn, five more between sunset and the next midnight.

That whole story of the air war at night is fascinating. The first electronic war.

46 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:37:45pm

re: #45 Romantic Heretic

I recall one of the Luftwaffe's star night fighters shot down twelve British aircraft over a twenty four hour period; seven between midnight and dawn, five more between sunset and the next midnight.

That whole story of the air war at night is fascinating. The first electronic war.

Of course, the US had its own night fighter, and it was a damn good one at that.

47 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:38:01pm

re: #45 Romantic Heretic

I recall one of the Luftwaffe's star night fighters shot down twelve British over a twenty four hour period; seven between midnight and dawn, five more between sunset and the next midnight.

That whole story of the air war at night is fascinating. The first electronic war.

The Battle of the Beams, the history of Bletchley Park, and the origins of electronic and cyber warfare are fascinating to a modern-day computer geek like me.

48 freetoken  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:41:13pm

The latest Erickson rant is just one more bit of evidence that the GOP coalition tri-ad that they've worked since Reagan is finally manifesting its own long-prognosticated demise.

Right now the thing holding together the various pieces of "Republican" is that they are all reactionary and can borrow tactics as such from each other. The militarists/hawks are more the willing to spend money, and even the religious activists are willing to spend money as long as it's not on abortion or anything to do with sex. The Randian neo-confederates, though, are still hung up on the 16th Amendment.

Erickson will not, I propose, ever admit that building a society, as we've come to expect of one, requires public expenditures.

49 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:42:41pm

On a lighter Holiday note:

[Link: www.ebaumsworld.com...]

One must agree that this is so very wrong, on so very many levels.

On the other hand, Our Lord is hung like a show pony.

50 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:43:18pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

Baby Erik is verry angry that the adults didn't go along with his insanity, so now he's banging his spoon on his hi-chair and calling the 'traitors'.

Loser.

As far as I can tell, Erick's screed is based on the assumption that the House GOP leadership is going to make a deal with Obama to avoid the expiration of tax cuts and automatic defense cuts.

This seems delusional to me. The House Republicans have agreed to nothing else (other than this precise deal) since taking over after the 2010 elections.

51 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:49:39pm

re: #48 freetoken

The latest Erickson rant is just one more bit of evidence that the GOP coalition tri-ad that they've worked since Reagan is finally manifesting its own long-prognosticated demise.

Right now the thing holding together the various pieces of "Republican" is that they are all reactionary and can borrow tactics as such from each other. The militarists/hawks are more the willing to spend money, and even the religious activists are willing to spend money as long as it's not on abortion or anything to do with sex. The Randian neo-confederates, though, are still hung up on the 16th Amendment.

Erickson will not, I propose, ever admit that building a society, as we've come to expect of one, requires public expenditures.

Interesting. I think you have that right.

Paged

52 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:51:12pm

re: #49 austin_blue

On a lighter Holiday note:

[Link: www.ebaumsworld.com...]

One must agree that this is so very wrong, on so very many levels.

On the other hand, Our Lord is hung like a show pony.

If light stays on for more than four hours, see your doctor.

53 TedStriker  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 7:55:04pm

re: #49 austin_blue

On a lighter Holiday note:

[Link: www.ebaumsworld.com...]

One must agree that this is so very wrong, on so very many levels.

On the other hand, Our Lord is hung like a show pony.

I see that the Messiah has been talking to some Catholic priests...

///

54 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:02:36pm

Night Lizards.

55 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:06:16pm

I love watching 'How it's made' on the science channel. Tonight they were looking inside Facebook's data center. Cooler than shit. Looks like they are running some IBM sharks and EMC cheap shit. I'm sure within the 300k sq. ft. data center they also use HP, Sun And Hitachi boxes for storage.

56 dragonath  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:15:16pm

As long as we're talking about the Soviets, here's a picture I saved for Dark_Falcon.

Image: 800_78723532a02d9b0e3b5c48fbaf03e66e.jpg

Check out that site on the watermark. Pictures of Moscow all the way from 1869 to 2011.

57 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:16:45pm
58 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:18:09pm

re: #56 dragonath

As long as we're talking about the Soviets, here's a picture I saved for Dark_Falcon.

Image: 800_78723532a02d9b0e3b5c48fbaf03e66e.jpg

Check out that site on the watermark. Pictures of Moscow all the way from 1869 to 2011.

It's been Brushshopped!

59 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:18:36pm

Tom Ulrich @thomasulrich

Blessed with a great family. Five follower, Conservative with a Doctorate in Common Sense. Becoming someone who really is discusted by the left.

Discusted?

I am disappoint.

60 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:26:08pm

re: #59 Kragar

Tom Ulrich @thomasulrich

Blessed with a great family. Five follower, Conservative with a Doctorate in Common Sense. Becoming someone who really is discusted by the left.

Discusted?

I am disappoint.

Someone thinks he's importance :).

61 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:26:42pm

re: #57 Kragar

[Embedded content]

I was just thinking about him.. I'm watching NBC before the Leno show.
Man you can't believe the call-in rants in this one segment every night..Your everyday red neck from Oklahoma.. OMG. They make Bryan Fisher sound like a voice of reason.

62 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:29:33pm

You know if you have to tell yourself a dozen times that you have tons of common sense, you probably don't have common sense.

63 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:35:17pm

re: #62 HappyWarrior

You know if you have to tell yourself a dozen times that you have tons of common sense, you probably don't have common sense.

Remember that guy that was here several years ago? He bragged he had an IQ of 170. That genius was dumber than a box of rock. Funnier than crap

64 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:35:59pm

re: #62 HappyWarrior

You know if you have to tell yourself a dozen times that you have tons of common sense, you probably don't have common sense.

Common sense is not as common as they would like you to believe.

65 allegro  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:39:35pm

re: #64 Kragar

Common sense is not as common as they would like you to believe.

And like "small government" no one can define it. But they sure as heck believe in it.

66 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:39:49pm

re: #59 Kragar

Tom Ulrich @thomasulrich

Blessed with a great family. Five follower, Conservative with a Doctorate in Common Sense. Becoming someone who really is discusted by the left.

Discusted?

I am disappoint.

If everybody stopped paying taxes, everything would fall apart. No road repair, no bridge repair, no firemen, no hospitals, no schools, no national defense, no infrastructure. No nothing.

That doctorate must have come from Liberty U.

67 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:41:10pm

re: #59 Kragar

Tom Ulrich @thomasulrich

Five follower

?

68 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:42:20pm

re: #67 BongCrodny

?

Fox show at 5pm

69 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:42:39pm

re: #66 BongCrodny

If everybody stopped paying taxes, everything would fall apart. No road repair, no bridge repair, no firemen, no hospitals, no schools, no national defense, no infrastructure. No nothing.

That doctorate must have come from Liberty U.

Yeah but idiots like this dude think things just happen. That's the trouble with the anti-tax zealots. They don't think about the consequences of their moronic ideas.

70 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:42:59pm

re: #63 A Man for all Seasons

Remember that guy that was here several years ago? He bragged he had an IQ of 170. That genius was dumber than a box of rock. Funnier than crap

Nah, I know the type though.

71 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:44:04pm

re: #68 A Man for all Seasons

Fox show at 5pm

Ah. Of course.

72 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:46:31pm

re: #66 BongCrodny

If everybody stopped paying taxes, everything would fall apart. No road repair, no bridge repair, no firemen, no hospitals, no schools, no national defense, no infrastructure. No nothing.

That doctorate must have come from Liberty U.

"Stop Asking for Handouts! I Never Got Help from Anybody!"

What They Think They're Saying:

"I pulled myself up by my bootstraps!"

What We Hear:

"Because I didn't inherit millions of dollars, impoverished children don't need food stamps!"

All right.

You "never got help from anybody."

Nothing was "handed to you."

All right.

Let's say you scratched and you clawed and climbed the ladder of success. You never took a welfare check or charity, you worked three jobs to get through college. And at the end of it you look back on your labors and feel justified in saying, "I never got help from anybody."

So ... you were never a child? From birth, you were hunting and gathering your own food? You never had a mother to "hand" you milk?

You're completely self-educated? At age 4, you sought out your own knowledge, and paid teachers out of your own pocket?

I don't think you did. I'd have seen something about it on the news.

I think your parents poured untold resources into your hungry mouth. I think you had a roof over your head that was paid for by other people, I think you went to schools that were built and staffed and paid for by other people, I think you felt safe because the streets were patrolled by other people, I think you drove to your three jobs on roads paved by other people, in a car built by other people and burning oil that was drilled by other people in a nation whose borders were defended by other people.

Look, I understand why "I ain't asking for help from nobody!" individualism works as an attitude, or a philosophy. No, you shouldn't wait for help to come along. I'll even agree that we don't impress that message hard enough on kids when they're growing up. Kids, if you're reading this, and you fucking shouldn't be, but if you are, let me tell you now:

The world doesn't give a shit about you, and you'll have to wrestle it for every good thing you get. Hell, I've written an entire article about how grown-ups don't tell us how freaking hard everything is, and how the shock of unexpected effort trips us up.

But, for the rich, this somehow gets extended to the absolutely delusional idea that they exist on a purely self-sufficient island, in an ocean full of shiftless layabouts always asking to borrow their stuff.

73 SidewaysQuark  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:48:56pm

re: #70 HappyWarrior

Nah, I know the type though.

If you really have a 170 IQ and your most noteworthy accomplishment you can find to brag about is having a high IQ, something is seriously wrong with you anyway.

74 dragonath  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:49:19pm

Wile E. Coyote... Super Genius!

75 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:50:15pm

re: #73 SidewaysQuark

If you really have a 170 IQ and your most noteworthy accomplishment you can find to brag about is having a high IQ, something is seriously wrong with you anyway.

I think he didn't see a hyphen in the report that said IQ: 1-70

76 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:57:20pm

re: #73 SidewaysQuark

If you really have a 170 IQ and your most noteworthy accomplishment you can find to brag about is having a high IQ, something is seriously wrong with you anyway.

The mocking from the lizards was a thing of beauty that night.
I was laughing so hard

77 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:58:13pm

re: #64 Kragar

Common sense is not as common as they would like you to believe.

"Common sense" is Wingnutese for "I'll believe my gut, not what people who've actually studied and thought hard about the issues tell me."

78 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 8:59:21pm

re: #63 A Man for all Seasons

Remember that guy that was here several years ago? He bragged he had an IQ of 170. That genius was dumber than a box of rock. Funnier than crap

Before my time but it makes me remember who was allegedly the smartest person I've ever known.

Used to be in Mensa. Hey, I thought I could meet smart women and I was wrong.

Anyway, there was one guy there who was a member of the Triple 9 club. Meaning he was in the top 2% of the top 2%. He was, seriously, the most boring person I've ever known. He would enter a room and the fun would drain right out of it. Amazing.

Still lived with his mom at past fifty. Sad.

Intelligence is a slippery concept.

79 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:09:18pm

re: #77 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

"Common sense" is Wingnutese for "I'll believe my gut, not what people who've actually studied and thought hard about the issues tell me."

Yeah, it's thinly veiled anti-intellectualism. I see the phrase applied to people like Palin who they know they can't with a straight face call intellectual so they instead suggest they have "common sense."

80 dragonath  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:10:26pm

Remember when Scott Adams's misogynistic sockpuppet got caught on MetaFilter and all he really had to say in his defense was that he was a "certified genius"?

I never cared for Dilbert anyway. Give me Calvin and Hobbes any day of the week.

81 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:14:58pm

re: #80 dragonath

Remember when Scott Adams's misogynistic sockpuppet got caught on MetaFilter and all he really had to say in his defense was that he was a "certified genius"?

I never cared for Dilbert anyway. Give me Calvin and Hobbes any day of the week.

Yeah I remember hearing about that. What a douchenozzle.

82 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:17:00pm

Oh hey, look at that.

U.S. judge says victims' bodies can prevent rape

11:17PM EST December 13. 2012 - SANTA ANA, California (AP) — A Southern California judge is being publicly admonished for saying a rape victim "didn't put up a fight" during her assault and that if someone doesn't want sexual intercourse, the body "will not permit that to happen."

83 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:18:57pm

re: #82 Four More Tears

Oh hey, look at that.

U.S. judge says victims' bodies can prevent rape

What the fuck is wrong with some of these judges? Stop blaming the victims and be mad at the actual criminals here.

84 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:20:27pm

re: #82 Four More Tears

The California Commission on Judicial Performance voted 10-0 to impose a public admonishment Thursday, saying Superior Court Judge Derek Johnson's comments were inappropriate and a breach of judicial ethics.

85 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:22:52pm

re: #84 Kragar

Most rational people would realize at that moment that they had fucked up royally.

86 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:30:53pm

Is there any way to turn off recommendations permanently in Youtube?

87 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:32:31pm

re: #85 Four More Tears

"I bet she shags like a minx... How do I let them know because of the unfreezing process, I have no inner monologue? I hope I didn't just say that all out loud just now. "

88 dragonath  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:33:35pm

re: #86 Gus

I'm wondering what happened to the "more videos from this user" drop down panel.

89 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:35:17pm

re: #88 dragonath

Every time I get used to it, they go around and fuck the whole thing up.

90 Cinnabar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:37:34pm

re: #82 Four More Tears

Oh hey, look at that.

U.S. judge says victims' bodies can prevent rape

Wait until... no, I can't wish a rape even on the likes of him.

91 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:39:09pm

re: #88 dragonath

I'm wondering what happened to the "more videos from this user" drop down panel.

They have other weird quirks.

92 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:39:42pm

re: #90 Cinnabar

Wait until... no, I can't wish a rape even on the likes of him.

You can however wish for a hysterically funny mixup involving a sex toy and mistaking crazy glue for lube which requires a 911 call.

93 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:45:45pm

You ever find yourself listening to someone and wondering to yourself, why is this person so famous and admired? Even people that you pretty much agree with but you sit there thinking, this person is way overrated?

94 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:51:57pm

re: #93 Gus

You ever find yourself listening to someone and wondering to yourself, why is this person so famous and admired? Even people that you pretty much agree with but you sit there thinking, this person is way overrated?

All the time.

95 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:57:25pm

re: #94 Kragar

All the time.

It's like some kind of popularity contest.

96 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 9:58:40pm

People get really carried away with the isms.

97 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:04:09pm

re: #95 Gus

It's like some kind of popularity contest.

Musicians with no musical talent.
Comedians with so sense of humor.
Writers who couldn't write a grocery list.

And yet they're famous.

98 dragonath  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:04:23pm

New Villian Emerges In AFP Tent-Gate: Guy Fawkes-Masked ‘Radical Anarchists’

A spokesperson for conservative group Americans For Prosperity told TPM on Thursday the tent’s collapse this week during protests outside the state capitol may have been instigated not by union protesters — some of whom were “helping us” after the tent collapse, she said — but rather by “radical anarchists” wearing Guy Fawkes masks and coming from the Occupy movement.

Unions! Occupy! Anarchists!

99 Kragar  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:12:56pm

re: #98 dragonath

New Villian Emerges In AFP Tent-Gate: Guy Fawkes-Masked ‘Radical Anarchists’

Unions! Occupy! Anarchists!

So Steven Crowder, who was deliberately messing with the crowd the whole damn time, decided not to go confront any Occupy folks hanging around their tent in Guy Fawkes masks to heckle and make fun of them? They don't have one picture with the guy they're trying to blame?

100 Henchman 25  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:16:28pm

re: #86 Gus

Yeah, it's called moving that part of your browser window off the screen. :P

101 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:20:10pm

re: #100 Henchman 25

Yeah, it's called moving that part of your browser window off the screen. :P

I'm watching Dawkins.

102 dragonath  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:28:05pm
103 Gus  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 11:16:38pm
104 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 13, 2012 11:32:34pm

re: #103 Gus

Image: nones-exec-7.png

Atheists: It Gets Better.

105 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:33:57am

Morning, all

106 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:39:54am

re: #13 dragonfire1981

On top of that I think a lot of couples give up too easy. My wife and I have been married for almost 5 years now and I am still madly in love with her and have a strong marriage but I've also put a lot of work into it. You can't expect a relationship to survive on autopilot nor can you think a person will magically change after the ring goes on their finger.

It also assumes that you get married of your own choice and accord and not because of parental pressure because she is knocked up...

107 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:42:44am

re: #59 Kragar

Tom Ulrich @thomasulrich

Blessed with a great family. Five follower, Conservative with a Doctorate in Common Sense. Becoming someone who really is discusted by the left.

Discusted?

I am disappoint.

He has a doctorate in common sense, not grammer and speling...

108 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:03am

re: #104 Four More Tears

Atheists: It Gets Better.

People's reported religious affiliations do not give us a window into their souls. Only they themselves know what they truly believe, but in a secular society, people are less afraid of social consequences if they do not belong to a church.

109 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:55:19am
110 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:46am

earthquake....

111 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:20am

where?

112 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:43:32am

re: #111 Sol Berdinowitz

where?

Here in SoCal ... not popped up yet on the USGS page. From the duration of the shaking, about 2 seconds, and the swelling nature I presume it was some distance from where I'm sitting right now. If I had to guess it was a 4 or 5 somewhere out in the desert.

113 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:41am

Heh, it was out in the ocean, a 5.5:

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

114 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:42am

Nature just doing some warm-ups for the Apocalypse...

115 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:50am

Preliminary now says a 6.1

116 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:53:17am

smaller aftershock...

Historical data doesn't include a quake of this magnitude in that area:

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

It's on the continental shelf, and looking at the topography it appears to be near a canyon. I wonder if the canyon wall collapsed.

117 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:00:28am
118 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:10am

They've now resolved it into two quakes, a solution that might not stand further scrutiny. It's up to a 6.4 now, and further south:

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

119 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:09:51am

an earthquake that caused an undersea landslide?

120 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:42am

re: #119 Sol Berdinowitz

Maybe. The calculated depths are highly uncertain, but I could tell it was large and at a distance because the shaking rolled on for a couple of seconds and seemed to come in two pulses.

121 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:58am
122 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:48:01am

I was expecting this

123 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:12:22am

re: #122 Sol Berdinowitz

But were you expecting this?

124 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:14:16am

No, I was expecting the Spanish Inquisition...

125 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:23:26am

HA HA

126 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:24:42am

re: #124 Sol Berdinowitz

No, I was expecting the Spanish Inquisition...

Did you know people did expect the Spanish Inquisition? They called ahead. They'd give you six months notice that you were going to be prosecuted.

127 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:27:38am

Of course, but nobody expected the Comfy Chair...

128 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:14:27am

Hey, is anyone currently reading this thread ex-military?

129 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:23:39am

re: #128 Obdicut

Hey, is anyone currently reading this thread ex-military?

Depends.

130 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:43:00am

re: #129 Decatur Deb

Depends.

Heh. Can I send you a very short story and get your response to it?

131 wheat-dogghazi  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:59:12am
I arf you not.

Can someone translate this bit of Fischer-speak? I thought "arf" was a sound a dog makes.

And while I'm asking questions, pardon my cluelessness. Who the hell is Steve Crowder, and why should I even care if somebody clocked him? I swear I never heard of him until this whole tent malarkey.

132 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:59:19am

re: #128 Obdicut

Hey, is anyone currently reading this thread ex-military?

Yes, 16 years US Army.

133 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:00:03am

re: #99 Kragar

So Steven Crowder, who was deliberately messing with the crowd the whole damn time, decided not to go confront any Occupy folks hanging around their tent in Guy Fawkes masks to heckle and make fun of them? They don't have one picture with the guy they're trying to blame?

Boy, when Killgore gets a hold of this angle... He's going to support Crowder down the line after this, blaming the whole thing on "Occupy activists gone rapey-stabby!!1"

/I wish I was kidding.

134 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:00:44am

re: #131 wheat-dogghazi

Can someone translate this bit of Fischer-speak? I thought "arf" was a sound a dog makes.

It's his cute way of saying "No shit"

135 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:01:23am

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

Boy, when Killgore gets a hold of this angle... He's going to support Crowder down the line after this, blaming the whole thing on "Occupy activists gone rapey-stabby!!1"

/I wish I was kidding.

Anyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask must be a card-carrying member of Occupy, yes...

136 andres  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:02:16am

re: #127 Sol Berdinowitz

Of course, but nobody expected the Comfy Chair...

Art thou a witch, viva España?

137 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:06:19am

re: #132 William Barnett-Lewis

Yes, 16 years US Army.

Same deal: can I show you a short story?

138 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:07:05am

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

Boy, when Killgore gets a hold of this angle... He's going to support Crowder down the line after this, blaming the whole thing on "Occupy activists gone rapey-stabby!!1"

/I wish I was kidding.

Crowder apparently says he's been trying to call in a police report, which makes very little sense if one was the victim of a vicious attack as he's alleging. If he intended to file a report or even have the men arrested promptly, why didn't he do so the day of the attack? He had the video there, he could have shown it to the cops the same day. But no, he spent two days playing edited versions on the web and TV and making his MMA "challenge" before whining that the cops aren't doing anything to arrest his "attackers."

139 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:10:09am

re: #137 Obdicut

Same deal: can I show you a short story?

Sure. My nick should be blue for email instead of web page this time.

140 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:10:58am

re: #138 Targetpractice

Crowder apparently says he's been trying to call in a police report, which makes very little sense if one was the victim of a vicious attack as he's alleging. If he intended to file a report or even have the men arrested promptly, why didn't he do so the day of the attack? He had the video there, he could have shown it to the cops the same day. But no, he spent two days playing edited versions on the web and TV and making his MMA "challenge" before whining that the cops aren't doing anything to arrest his "attackers."

The MMA challenge was just bizarre. Not the actions of someone who was a crime victim IMO.

141 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:13:35am

re: #140 HappyWarrior

The MMA challenge was just bizarre. Not the actions of someone who was a crime victim IMO.

That's what the MI state police inspector who TPM interviewed said. That you're either the victim or you're not. And a victim doesn't generally leverage a crime against them for personal gain. Not that they wouldn't investigate if Crowder files a report, but unless he signals an intent to actually prosecute, then it's just a waste of time and resources for the state police.

142 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:14:13am

re: #138 Targetpractice

Crowder apparently says he's been trying to call in a police report, which makes very little sense if one was the victim of a vicious attack as he's alleging. If he intended to file a report or even have the men arrested promptly, why didn't he do so the day of the attack? He had the video there, he could have shown it to the cops the same day. But no, he spent two days playing edited versions on the web and TV and making his MMA "challenge" before whining that the cops aren't doing anything to arrest his "attackers."

That's because he's spinning out another part of his narrative, this part being "The cops protect the Union Thugs!!1 Conservative views are being persecuted!!1". Actually filing a police report would mean going on the record and if he lied on said report he'd be committing a crime. And without lies and exaggerations Crowder's got nothing.

143 wheat-dogghazi  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:18:10am

re: #134 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Ah, figures. That man is a very strange dude.

By the way, should I change my nic to reflect the new nontroversy?

144 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:18:54am

I think we've all earned the right to be retincient of right wing political stuntmen like Crowder following James O'Keefe's exposure as a bullshit liar and Andrew Breitbart's lies too. This just seems too convenient for me. A desperate attempt for Fox and its like minded viewers to get their image of the "violent union thug" validated.

145 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:20:22am

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

That's because he's spinning out another part of his narrative, this part being "The cops protect the Union Thugs!!1 Conservative views are being persecuted!!1" Actually filing a police report would mean going on the record and if he lied on said report he'd be committing a crime. And without lies and exaggerations Crowder's got nothing.

Ayep, the wingnut spin is already in overdrive, screaming that the "thugs" are being protected by the "blue wall." That cops could just go and arrest these guys today, but won't because...uhm..."solidarity" or something. One compared it to getting caught by a red light camera, saying the cops wouldn't hesitate to issue you a ticket, but they won't arrest these guys caught on camera "attacking" Crowder.

146 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:21:48am

re: #145 Targetpractice

One compared it to getting caught by a red light camera, saying the cops wouldn't hesitate to issue you a ticket, but they won't arrest these guys caught on camera "attacking" Crowder.

A red light camera is a clear-cut case...this matter is a bit more nuanced, and we all know that nuance has gone the way of the dodo in American political discourse.

147 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:25:00am

re: #145 Targetpractice

Ayep, the wingnut spin is already in overdrive, screaming that the "thugs" are being protected by the "blue wall." That cops could just go and arrest these guys today, but won't because...uhm..."solidarity" or something. One compared it to getting caught by a red light camera, saying the cops wouldn't hesitate to issue you a ticket, but they won't arrest these guys caught on camera "attacking" Crowder.

Lost in this of course is the fact that the state police answer to the governor, who is himself a Republican. In real life, the governor could order the state police to act, but he won't because ordering an arrest based on Crowder's bullshit would just earn him a lawsuit for false arrest when the case gets thrown out of court.

148 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:25:48am

re: #146 Sol Berdinowitz

A red light camera is a clear-cut case...this matter is a bit more nuanced, and we all know that nuance has gone the way of the dodo in American political discourse.

Ayep. You've got Crowder admitting on foreign TV that he and others were shoving people away from the tent. You've got video of a "thug" on the ground, with Crowder throwing up his hands in a submissive posture, which is odd for a guy who says he didn't expect the punch and was caught off-guard. And you've got a "victim" that avoided filing charges the same day with dozens of cops in attendance, instead going on TV the same night to issue a "challenge."

Yeah, I can't say I'd envy the prosecutor who had this case dumped on his lap.

149 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:28:06am

re: #146 Sol Berdinowitz

A red light camera is a clear-cut case...this matter is a bit more nuanced, and we all know that nuance has gone the way of the dodo in American political discourse.

It's seldom ever had a place in American public discourse anyway. In the US, shouting "DERP!" beats nuance an day of the week.

150 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:30:23am

Can I just say as the descendant of union workers how much I resent Fox and the other right wing media outlets for pushing the image of the "union thug" as the average union member to the American people. When I think of union members. I think of family members who worked their asses off to provide better lives for their family. A lot of these guys were also veterans too yet you listen to shitheads like Crowder and Hannity, and they want to paint this image of Joe Union Member as a violent thug.

151 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:31:38am

Oh, and I forgot you've also got eyewitnesses who say that Crowder was out there, egging on the crowd, and shouting insults in the faces of the same "thugs." Witnesses who the defense would gladly call upon to attack the veracity of Crowder's video "evidence," assuming that he tried to avoid producing the full video for the court.

152 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:32:57am

re: #139 William Barnett-Lewis

Sure. My nick should be blue for email instead of web page this time.

Shared with you. Thank you.

153 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:33:52am

Have I told you lately how much I hate mornings?

oh, Brat Puppy has discovered the joys of destroying tennis balls.

you?

154 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:35:35am

It's Pie Day!

I made a Key Lime pie.

155 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:36:10am

re: #150 HappyWarrior

Can I just say as the descendant of union workers how much I resent Fox and the other right wing media outlets for pushing the image of the "union thug" as the average union member to the American people. When I think of union members. I think of family members who worked their asses off to provide better lives for their family. A lot of these guys were also veterans too yet you listen to shitheads like Crowder and Hannity, and they want to paint this image of Joe Union Member as a violent thug.

Have to wonder how many of the camera men and behind the scenes people on the Fox News set is a Union Member?

156 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:36:23am

re: #153 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Have I told you lately how much I hate mornings?

oh, Brat Puppy has discovered the joys of destroying tennis balls.

you?

Learning what a brass monkey feels like. Yegods, Mother Nature, cut me a break. You gave me 70 degrees last week, now I got frost on my car when I wake up today.

157 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:37:27am

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

It's seldom ever had a place in American public discourse anyway. In the US, shouting "DERP!" beats nuance an day of the week.

I could swear there was a time when people could and would respect a dissenting viewpoint along with the person who held it. That is the part that has really gone out the window.

158 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:39:02am

re: #156 Targetpractice

Learning what a brass monkey feels like. Yegods, Mother Nature, cut me a break. You gave me 70 degrees last week, now I got frost on my car when I wake up today.

I think I've developed a sinus infection as a result of it.

159 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:39:22am

re: #155 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Have to wonder how many of the camera men and behind the scenes people on the Fox News set is a Union Member?

Wouldn't surprise me. Hell, I was reading that Rand Paul's predecessor in the Senate, Jim Bunning was instrumental in getting Martin Miller to head up the baseball players union during Bunning's playing career. And of course Reagan was the president of SAG. Seems to me that a lot of this is "Unions for some but not for all." It's why they'll bust teachers unions but won't go after police and firefighters unions because they know there would be a huge backlash to it.

160 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:39:37am

I HEARD PIE!
WHO'S MAKING PIE!
:)

161 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:40:43am

re: #160 Varek Raith

I HEARD PIE!
WHO'S MAKING PIE!
:)

It's a wonderful day for pie.

162 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:41:49am

re: #160 Varek Raith

I HEARD PIE!
WHO'S MAKING PIE!
:)

I made a pie.

163 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:42:36am

re: #159 HappyWarrior

Wouldn't surprise me. Hell, I was reading that Rand Paul's predecessor in the Senate, Jim Bunning was instrumental in getting Martin Miller to head up the baseball players union during Bunning's playing career. And of course Reagan was the president of SAG. Seems to me that a lot of this is "Unions for some but not for all." It's why they'll bust teachers unions but won't go after police and firefighters unions because they know there would be a huge backlash to it.

Think it has more to do with the FOP and IAFF in many states habitually endorsing Republican candidates. Remember the Sept 11th appearance of Willard at an NYC firehouse, bringing them pizza before making a speech out front?

164 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:42:52am

Y'll see this one?

U.S. Judge Says Victims’ Bodies Can Prevent Rape

165 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:43:05am

re: #162 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I made a pie.

Can you mail that to me?
Kthx.

166 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:43:09am

re: #152 Obdicut

Shared with you. Thank you.

NP. I'm printing it out to give a good read to then I'll give you my thoughts.

167 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:43:16am

re: #162 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I made a pie.

Key Lime? mmmmmmmmm

168 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:43:24am

re: #164 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Y'll see this one?

Maybe he'll run for the Senate.

169 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:45:19am

re: #163 Targetpractice

Think it has more to do with the FOP and IAFF in many states habitually endorsing Republican candidates. Remember the Sept 11th appearance of Willard at an NYC firehouse, bringing them pizza before making a speech out front?

True that. It's probably a little of both really, the fact that they'd be alienating a constituency and it would turn the public against them because I think most people are sympathetic to the organization rights of cops and firefighters.

170 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:45:47am

re: #164 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Y'll see this one?

Yeah, I did. He should have saved his outrage for the convict not the victim.

171 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:46:00am

So, The Day of the Triffids is a rather good book.

I love commentary about people being unable or unwilling to accept reality.

172 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:50:46am

re: #171 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, The Day of the Triffids is a rather good book.

I love commentary about people being unable or unwilling to accept reality.

It's better than some.

Got anything lined up after it? Ever read the Vorkosigan books?

173 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:53:46am

re: #128 Obdicut

Hey, is anyone currently reading this thread ex-military?

Yes.
[eta - nvm, I see WBL already corresponded with you.]

174 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:55:05am

re: #159 HappyWarrior

Wouldn't surprise me. Hell, I was reading that Rand Paul's predecessor in the Senate, Jim Bunning was instrumental in getting Martin Miller to head up the baseball players union during Bunning's playing career. And of course Reagan was the president of SAG. Seems to me that a lot of this is "Unions for some but not for all." It's why they'll bust teachers unions but won't go after police and firefighters unions because they know there would be a huge backlash to it.

It's not really about backlash so much as it about the electoral behavior of those different unions.

Teacher's unions are Yellow Dog Democratic organization: Most of them would never endorse anyone other than a Democrat for office, and if they did it would be of a left-wing 3rd party like New York's Working Families Party. Moreover, the demands for increased funding by teachers' unions at times exceed what good sense would hold to be reasonable, thus imposing budget costs that infuriate fiscal conservatives. Thus to Republicans, including me, teacher's unions (though not necessarily teachers themselves) are seen as a hostile force, whose neutralization would be good for the GOP electorally and in terms of public policy.

Police and fire fighter unions, by way of contrast, are 'swing' organizations and will often be willing to endorse either party based on who offers them more. Since Republicans can court and often win the endorsement of these unions, it makes more sense to support them instead of attack them. Police and fire union endorsements also allow republicans to play up their party's image as the party of law and order and thus win over voters concerned about crime and lawlessness.

Thus the difference between teachers and police unions. Their different behavior causes the GOP to treat them differently.

175 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:55:14am

re: #172 William Barnett-Lewis

It's better than some.

Got anything lined up after it? Ever read the Vorkosigan books?

No, should I?

176 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:56:24am

re: #164 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Y'll see this one?

OMFG. Repulsive.

177 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:56:58am

re: #173 kirkspencer

No, I'd like any and all feedback. My gmail is just my nic here at gmail if you'd like to read it.

178 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:58:01am

re: #172 William Barnett-Lewis

It's better than some.

Got anything lined up after it? Ever read the Vorkosigan books?

HIstorical Fiction --A Stone's Fall by Ian Pears.

I have no idea what it is about, it's been in my queue for a long time. I decided to go with it, finally.

179 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:59:00am

re: #172 William Barnett-Lewis

It's better than some.

Got anything lined up after it? Ever read the Vorkosigan books?

I wasn't thrilled with the first of the Earthsea books by Ursula Le Guin. The writing was very good, I just didn't care for the story.

180 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:59:18am

If we're talking about books, can anyone recommend some good mystery authors similar to Lee Child and Stephen Hunter?

181 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:00:11am

re: #174 Dark_Falcon

It's not really about backlash so much as it about the electoral behavior of those different unions.

Teacher's unions are Yellow Dog Democratic organization: Most of them would never endorse anyone other than a Democrat for office, and if they did it would be of a left-wing 3rd party like New York's Working Families Party. Moreover, the demands for increased funding by teachers' unions at times exceed what good sense would hold to be reasonable, thus imposing budget costs that infuriate fiscal conservatives. Thus to Republicans, including me, teacher's unions (though not necessarily teachers themselves) are seen as a hostile force, whose neutralization would be good for the GOP electorally and in terms of public policy.

Police and fire fighter unions, by way of contrast, are 'swing' organizations and will often be willing to endorse either party based on who offers them more. Since Republicans can court and often win the endorsement of these unions, it makes more sense to support them instead of attack them. Police and fire union endorsements also allow republicans to play up their party's image as the party of law and order and thus win over voters concerned about crime and lawlessness.

Thus the difference between teachers and police unions. Their different behavior causes the GOP to treat them differently.

Sorry DF but that's just not true. Here's a story from September about an Indiana teachers union endorsing the Republican against a Democrat. They're not Yellow Dog Democrats.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...] And I've read in the newspapers many more times over the years about teachers unions endorsing Republicans. So, let's be honest about why teachers unions are targeted. It's because teachers make easy scapegoats and it's alot easier to scapegoat a teacher than a firefighter or cop in this society. Unfortunate but it is what it is.

182 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:00:11am

re: #179 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I wasn't thrilled with the first of the Earthsea books by Ursula Le Guin. The writing was very good, I just didn't care for the story.

*Rageface*
/

183 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:00:26am

re: #180 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

If we're talking about books, can anyone recommend some good mystery authors similar to Lee Child and Stephen Hunter?

Peter Robinson, Ruth Rendell, Josephine Tey

I've never read the one's you mentioned, but the above are always satisfying for me.

184 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:01:09am

re: #183 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Peter Robinson, Ruth Rendell, Josephine Tey

I've never read the one's you mentioned, but the above are always satisfying for me.

Those are kind of old, any contemporary authors?

185 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:03:41am

re: #184 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Those are kind of old, any contemporary authors?

I did one each by Ann Holt and Daniel Hecht. They were ok. The Cree Black by Daniel Hecht was surprisingly better than I expected it to be.

186 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:09am

re: #181 HappyWarrior

It's because teachers make easy scapegoats and it's alot easier to scapegoat a teacher than a firefighter or cop in this society. Unfortunate but it is what it is.

These GOP has grown highly suspicious and critical of anything but religious schools, charter schools or homeschooling...

187 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:19am

re: #184 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Those are kind of old, any contemporary authors?

Mystery is hard because I can usually figure out the ending or I find the characters just unbelievable. Ruth Rendell/Barbara Vine is still my all-time favorite.

188 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:36am

Authors on my "already read all their stuff, waiting for the next book" list:

Lee Child
Stephen Hunter
Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child
Jeffery Deaver
Jonathan Kellerman
Michael Connelly
James Rollins
John Sandford
Steve Berry

189 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:59am

re: #186 Sol Berdinowitz

These GOP has grown highly suspicious and critical of anything but religious schools, charter schools or homeschooling...

Public Schools are nothing but indoctrination camps, doncha know?

/

190 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:06:15am

re: #186 Sol Berdinowitz

These GOP has grown highly suspicious and critical of anything but religious schools, charter schools or homeschooling...

Yeah that plays a role too for sure.

191 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:22am

re: #188 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Authors on my "already read all their stuff, waiting for the next book" list:

Lee Child
Stephen Hunter
Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child
Jeffery Deaver
Jonathan Kellerman
Michael Connelly
James Rollins
John Sandford
Steve Berry

I read one James Rollins. I couldn't suspend disbelief enough to get into it.
I usually stay away from contemporary authors because I figure I can wait for the movie - or - if the story is republished enough, years later, I figure it might be worth reading.

192 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:28am

re: #189 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Public Schools are nothing but indoctrination camps, doncha know?

/

I still remember dipshit David Horowitz's bitching about teaching Arabic in public schools as proof that the teachers were part of some Jihadist conspiracy. Yeah, totally not practical at all to learn the language of a region that is a global hot spot.

193 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:08:29am

re: #186 Sol Berdinowitz

These GOP has grown highly suspicious and critical of anything but religious schools, charter schools or homeschooling...

That's not wholly true, but some of the dislike does come from a distrust of government. Despite their embodying the government's ability to use force, police win a partial exemption to that distrust in large part because law enforcement is one the few tasks that the vast majority of conservatives agree cannot be privatized: It must be done by the government.

194 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:08:37am

re: #180 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Have you read Reginald Hill's Dalziel and Pascoe series?

195 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:09:00am

BBIAB

196 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:09:13am

re: #188 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Authors on my "already read all their stuff, waiting for the next book" list:

Lee Child
Stephen Hunter
Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child
Jeffery Deaver
Jonathan Kellerman
Michael Connelly
James Rollins
John Sandford
Steve Berry

How do you feel about Robert Crais?

197 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:09:34am

re: #191 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I read one James Rollins. I couldn't suspend disbelief enough to get into it.
I usually stay away from contemporary authors because I figure I can wait for the movie - or - if the story is republished enough, years later, I figure it might be worth reading.

I think of Rollins as including elements of science fiction, not as a straight thriller.

I want to see the Jack Reacher movie but I'm still all WTF why did they cast that hobbit Tom Cruise to play a 6'5" 220-lb badass?

198 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:09:48am

re: #194 Obdicut

Have you read Reginald Hill's Dalziel and Pascoe series?

I thought that names sounded familiar. I just checked my audible library and I've listened to two of his. They were good.

199 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:10:17am

re: #198 Holidays are Family Fun Time

They start to get byzantine and unsatisfying around book ten or so, but it was a good run.

200 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:10:27am

re: #189 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Public Schools are nothing but indoctrination camps, doncha know?

/

They refuse to Teach the Controversy!!!

201 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:10:59am

Mornin' everyone. Quick drive-by before I run the dogs and head up to the mountain. Snow was great yesterday, but it stayed chilly - started at 21 degrees and got up to a balmy 15 degrees by the end of the day.

A quick word on the SoS battle:

202 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:10:59am

Another author I really like: C.J. Sansome's Shardlake series.

203 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:11:07am

re: #197 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I think of Rollins as including elements of science fiction, not as a straight thriller.

I want to see the Jack Reacher movie but I'm still all WTF why did they cast that hobbit Tom Cruise to play a 6'5" 220-lb badass?

Did you read Anna's Book by Barbara Vine (Ruth Rendell). The Chimney Sweepers Boy was a good thriller as well. The Dark Adapted Eye blew me away.

204 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:11:30am

re: #196 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

How do you feel about Robert Crais?

Let me put in a word too for Lawrence Block. His Burglar series is a bit too cutesy for me but the Keller and Matt Scudder novels are excellent.

205 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:21am

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

That's not wholly true, but some of the dislike does come from a distrust of government. Despite their embodying the government's ability to use force, police win a partial exemption to that distrust in large part because law enforcement is one the few tasks that the vast majority of conservatives agree cannot be privatized: It must be done by the government.

It's a selective distrust of government. If conservatives truly had a mistrust of the government. They wouldn't be voting against marijuana legalization(look at where the marijuana legalization did its worst in Colorado and Washington), they wouldn't not merely be opposed to gay marriage but want a federal ban on it, and they wouldn't be screwing around with existing rights to abortion. Conservative mistrust of government is a myth. They don't like the government being used in social welfare but as a whole, conservatives are as if not more big government than liberals are.

206 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:23am

re: #204 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Let me put in a word too for Lawrence Block. His Burglar series is a bit too cutesy for me but the Keller and Matt Scudder novels are excellent.

Lawrence Block is good for a few books.

207 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:38am

Overall, 78 percent of those surveyed said they thought temperatures were rising and 80 percent called it a serious problem. That's up slightly from 2009, when 75 percent thought global warming was occurring and just 73 percent thought it was a serious problem. In general, U.S. belief in global warming, according to AP-GfK and other polls, has fluctuated over the years but has stayed between about 70 and 85 percent.

The biggest change in the polling is among people who trust scientists only a little or not at all. About 1 in 3 of the people surveyed fell into that category.

Within that highly skeptical group, 61 percent now say temperatures have been rising over the past 100 years. That's a substantial increase from 2009, when the AP-GfK poll found that only 47 percent of those with little or no trust in scientists believed the world was getting warmer.

This is an important development because, often in the past, opinion about climate change doesn't move much in core groups — like those who deny it exists and those who firmly believe it's an alarming problem, said Jon Krosnick, a Stanford University social psychologist and pollster. Krosnick, who consulted with The Associated Press on the poll questions, said the changes the poll shows aren't in the hard-core "anti-warming" deniers, but in the next group, who had serious doubts.

"They don't believe what the scientists say, they believe what the thermometers say," Krosnick said. "Events are helping these people see what scientists thought they had been seeing all along."

Phil Adams, a retired freelance photographer from Washington, N.C., said he was "fairly cynical" about scientists and their theories. But he believes very much in climate change because of what he's seen with his own eyes.

And once again the GOP party position is increasingly out of tune with public opinion or even science. Way to go.

208 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:13:04am

re: #205 HappyWarrior

It's a selective distrust of government. If conservatives truly had a mistrust of the government. They wouldn't be voting against marijuana legalization(look at where the marijuana legalization did its worst in Colorado and Washington), they wouldn't not merely be opposed to gay marriage but want a federal ban on it, and they wouldn't be screwing around with existing rights to abortion. Conservative mistrust of government is a myth. They don't like the government being used in social welfare but as a whole, conservatives are as if not more big government than liberals are.

They want big government for big business and big military. Not for little people.

209 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:13:38am

re: #201 darthstar

Mornin' everyone. Quick drive-by before I run the dogs and head up to the mountain. Snow was great yesterday, but it stayed chilly - started at 21 degrees and got up to a balmy 15 degrees by the end of the day.

A quick word on the SoS battle:

[Embedded content]

I'm fine with Kerry but if he goes within the administration, that's fine too. The Republicans are going to bitch regardless of who he picks.

210 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:13:43am

Umberto Eco

211 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:14:04am

re: #209 HappyWarrior

I'm fine with Kerry but if he goes within the administration, that's fine too. The Republicans are going to bitch regardless of who he picks.

I just want it over so I can stop hearing about it.

212 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:14:33am

re: #208 Holidays are Family Fun Time

They want big government for big business and big military. Not for little people.

Precisely. You can't call yourself the party of "small government" when you have policies that use the same government to coddle big business and show very little to any consideration about even cutting the defense budget.

213 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:14:59am

There are reports of a school shooting in Newton, CT. Injuries being reported.

Developing...

214 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:15:05am

re: #208 Holidays are Family Fun Time

They want big government for big business and big military. Not for little people.

Government there is to protect business interests from demands and lawsuits from the people

215 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:15:29am

re: #213 lawhawk

There are reports of a school shooting in Newton, CT. Injuries being reported.

Developing...

armed union thugs?

/

216 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:15:48am

re: #213 lawhawk

There are reports of a school shooting in Newton, CT. Injuries being reported.

Developing...

There are rumors of one that started a few days ago here. End of the World Day. I hope it isn't a trend.

217 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:15:54am

re: #213 lawhawk

There are reports of a school shooting in Newton, CT. Injuries being reported.

Developing...

Seems like we read about a new one of these every week. Fucking sucks.

218 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:16:57am

re: #175 Holidays are Family Fun Time

No, should I?

I think so. They're fun, well written space opera that touches on some fascinating social dynamics in the process. She, the author, is concerned with medical ethics and on problems of personal identity, particularly the role of the physical in determining personhood.

I'd suggest starting with "Cordelia's Honor" or "The Warrior's Apprentice".

219 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:19:47am

re: #179 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I wasn't thrilled with the first of the Earthsea books by Ursula Le Guin. The writing was very good, I just didn't care for the story.

Le Guin is a unique talent with all the good & bad that implies. I'd suggest trying either "The Left Hand of Darkness" or "Always Coming Home" as better ways to experience her writing.

220 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:20:48am

re: #218 William Barnett-Lewis

I think so. They're fun, well written space opera that touches on some fascinating social dynamics in the process. She, the author, is concerned with medical ethics and on problems of personal identity, particularly the role of the physical in determining personhood.

I'd suggest starting with "Cordelia's Honor" or "The Warrior's Apprentice".

the first one isn't on Audible. Do you remember the #1 it is in the series.
Seems her's are on sale right now.

221 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:20:58am

re: #218 William Barnett-Lewis

I think so. They're fun, well written space opera that touches on some fascinating social dynamics in the process. She, the author, is concerned with medical ethics and on problems of personal identity, particularly the role of the physical in determining personhood.

I'd suggest starting with "Cordelia's Honor" or "The Warrior's Apprentice".

Warrior's apprentice, I think, would be the better choice. Though it WA in chronology, I think you get more out of it (or them, if you pick them up as Shards of Honor and Barrayar) having read WA already.

222 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:22:28am

re: #221 kirkspencer

Warrior's apprentice, I think, would be the better choice. Though it WA in chronology, I think you get more out of it (or them, if you pick them up as Shards of Honor and Barrayar) having read WA already.

ah!

223 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:22:53am

re: #220 Holidays are Family Fun Time

the first one isn't on Audible. Do you remember the #1 it is in the series.
Seems her's are on sale right now.

Go with The Warrior's Apprentice if it's available. It was the first novel and is the set up, really for all the others. The other is first chronologically but both parts were written later.

224 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:23:07am

re: #219 William Barnett-Lewis

I love the Wizard of Earthsea books. To me, they're some of the most lucid and compelling writing I've ever read, modern-day hero-myths that resonate very well with me.

But I can totally get how other people can pass them by and not feel they're much of anything.

Her story The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is near-universally revered, though.

225 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:23:21am

re: #155 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Have to wonder how many of the camera men and behind the scenes people on the Fox News set is a Union Member?

Every single one of them. You don't work on a set unless you are.

226 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:24:39am

re: #215 Sol Berdinowitz

armed union thugs?

/

Not funny.

227 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:24:45am

re: #179 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I wasn't thrilled with the first of the Earthsea books by Ursula Le Guin. The writing was very good, I just didn't care for the story.

If you're rather liking the triffids, I'll take you a different route. Try World War Z. Yes, it's a zombie uprising book. So what?

Going sideways from there I recently finished the newsflesh trilogy by Mira Grant. I really enjoyed feed and recommend it without reservation. I recommend the other two as well as they're pretty good, just not as good as the first book. (It's an odd feeling. They're pretty good and if you like the concept they're fun. But they're not as good as the first book, and in some ways that makes them worse yet.)

228 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:19am

re: #223 William Barnett-Lewis

Go with The Warrior's Apprentice if it's available. It was the first novel and is the set up, really for all the others. The other is first chronologically but both parts were written later.

Though it's clear that the later works are better written....I've known people to have hugely enjoyed reading them out of order.

229 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:35am

re: #224 Obdicut

I love the Wizard of Earthsea books. To me, they're some of the most lucid and compelling writing I've ever read, modern-day hero-myths that resonate very well with me.

But I can totally get how other people can pass them by and not feel they're much of anything.

Her story The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is near-universally revered, though.

Printed

230 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:26:33am

re: #213 lawhawk

There are reports of a school shooting in Newton, CT. Injuries being reported.

Developing...

So remind me again, when is it time to talk about gun control in this country?

//

231 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:27:34am

re: #230 Targetpractice

So remind me again, when is it time to talk about gun control in this country?

//

whenever you want to start a shouting match that proponents of gun control are bound to lose.

232 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:28:43am

re: #227 kirkspencer

If you're rather liking the triffids, I'll take you a different route. Try World War Z. Yes, it's a zombie uprising book. So what?

Going sideways from there I recently finished the newsflesh trilogy by Mira Grant. I really enjoyed feed and recommend it without reservation. I recommend the other two as well as they're pretty good, just not as good as the first book. (It's an odd feeling. They're pretty good and if you like the concept they're fun. But they're not as good as the first book, and in some ways that makes them worse yet.)

That's been in my queue for a while now.

I have to explain. When I get my credits each month, I sort the queue for the most expensive and choose with that criteria --then if I finish those and my podcasts before my new credits come due, I look at the cheaper books to see if I want to spend the money.

So anything that is cheaper sometimes get's left in the queue for a long time.

233 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:03am

re: #230 Targetpractice

So remind me again, when is it time to talk about gun control in this country?

//

And Mental Health????

234 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:05am

re: #231 Sol Berdinowitz

whenever you want to start a shouting match that proponents of gund control are bound to lose.

Yahoo's got a story of a knife-wielding man who slashed 22 children in China.

What do you suppose might have happened had he been armed instead of having only a knife?

235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:31:01am

Oh, so NOW he suddenly gives a shit about the downtrodden?

236 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:21am

re: #234 BongCrodny

Yahoo's got a story of a knife-wielding man who slashed 22 children in China.

What do you suppose might have happened had he been armed instead of having only a knife?

If all those tiny defenseless children had AR-15's or Desert Eagles then they'd be unslashed.

237 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:22am

re: #235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Oh, so NOW he suddenly gives a shit about the downtrodden?

[Embedded content]

Selective Christianity™

:0

238 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:52am

re: #234 BongCrodny

Yahoo's got a story of a knife-wielding man who slashed 22 children in China.

What do you suppose might have happened had he been armed instead of having only a knife?

Gun proponents would point out that guns don't kill, weapons do...had those kids only been properly armed, etc...and then start shouting about the 2nd Amendment, government coming for our guns and then our owther rights, adding in a couple anecdotes about grannies guning down intruders in their homes, etc...forget it, you can try and make a point, but they will drown you out with talking points.

Obama did absolutely nothing to restric gun ownership or access in this country and he still got attacked by the NRA. There is no reasoning with those schmucks.

239 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:33:08am

re: #235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

If the angle is to hit Obama, he's going to take it. No matter how inconsistent it is or how displays his cognitive dissonance or exploits the cognitive dissonance of his followers.

240 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:33:12am

re: #233 Holidays are Family Fun Time

And Mental Health????

I really believe we need to do much more with this than elsewhere. Of course we need a way to ensure those who are having problems are listed in NICS but we also need a way to allow people to prove the are no longer having problems and allow for the removal of their blocked status.

But it really boils down to changing the hate, fear & loathing people of have mental illness so that they'll seek help in the first place.

241 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:33:18am

A nice charming little Ministry video for KT.

242 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:33:31am

re: #235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Oh, so NOW he suddenly gives a shit about the downtrodden?

[Embedded content]

Yet he kissed the ass of Mr. Self-Deport. No love Bryan. You're not fooling anyone here.

243 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:04am

re: #240 William Barnett-Lewis

I really believe we need to do much more with this than elsewhere. Of course we need a way to ensure those who are having problems are listed in NICS but we also need a way to allow people to prove the are no longer having problems and allow for the removal of their blocked status.

But it really boils down to changing the hate, fear & loathing people of have mental illness so that they'll seek help in the first place.

Yes, the taboo/stigma must be faced.

244 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:35:01am

Sigh!

Books were a much more pleasant topic.

245 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:36:20am

re: #242 HappyWarrior

Yet he kissed the ass of Mr. Self-Deport. No love Bryan. You're not fooling anyone here.

Yes. If Obama does A, they say "No, no, no -- you need to do B."

Then if he does B, they say "Oh, look what that asshole is doing now."

Bryan Fischer can go piss up a rope.

246 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:37:20am

re: #245 BongCrodny

Yes. If Obama does A, they say "No, no, no -- you need to do B."

Then if he does B, they say "Oh, look what that asshole is doing now."

Bryan Fischer can go piss up a rope.

and then hang himself with it.
//Oh was that "Cyber-bullying"?

247 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:36am

re: #242 HappyWarrior

Yet he kissed the ass of Mr. Self-Deport. No love Bryan. You're not fooling anyone here.

The plight of undocumenteds in this country is not going to get better without comprehensive immigration reform, and that is about as likely as comprehensive gun control at this point.

248 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:45:20am

re: #233 Holidays are Family Fun Time

And Mental Health????

Oh, most definitely. I'd welcome a rather lively national dialogue on our need for reform in how we handle mental illness.

249 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:45:54am

Today's mass shooting is now breaking news:

School shooting reported in Newtown, Conn.

250 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:46:50am

re: #247 Sol Berdinowitz

The plight of undocumenteds in this country is not going to get better without comprehensive immigration reform, and that is about as likely as comprehensive gun control at this point.

I had a conservative friend who a few years back was in favor of bussing them all back to Mexico (or however many come from Mexico, of course).

I pointed out there were something like 11 million undocumenteds in this country, and at 40 or so per bus the logistics involved in that would be insane, and that it would cost a shitload of money to deport the ones who came from overseas.

But for him, everything came back to "we need to get rid of the illegals." Sigh.

251 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:46:56am

re: #248 Targetpractice

Oh, most definitely. I'd welcome a rather lively national dialogue on our need for reform in how we handle mental illness.

I seem to recall that under Reagan, they emptied out the wards of the mental hospitals and turned most of them out onto the streets.

252 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:47:57am

re: #249 bratwurst

Today's mass shooting is now breaking news:

School shooting reported in Newtown, Conn.

"Reports are not confirmed."

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but these things seldom seem to be false alarms.

253 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:48:30am

re: #251 Sol Berdinowitz

I seem to recall that under Reagan, they emptied out the wards of the mental hospitals and turned most of them out onto the streets.

Yeah, that was a brillant cost-saving move.

*spit*

254 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:49:32am

re: #250 BongCrodny

But for him, everything came back to "we need to get rid of the illegals." Sigh.

It all sounds so simple, doesn't it? Just go door to door, round them up and deport them, then seal the borders so they can't get back in...

Comprehensive reform is the only reform that will work, and that will cost a heck of a lot of money and change the way we do business and agriculture in this country. Nobody is willing to take the steps necessary for that, and until then, anything in the way of "reform" is just political posturing.

255 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:52:32am

re: #249 bratwurst

More recent reports indicate that there might be two shooters. One dead, and one who is on the loose. CT state troopers assisting local law enforcement. Still a very chaotic scene and the situation is still being sorted out.

State police are responding to a report of a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School on Dickinson Drive, school officials said.

Police are reporting a number of injured parties. The nature of their injuries is not clear.

There are unconfirmed reports of two shooters — one dead, one still at large.

Shortly after 9:40 a.m., police reported that a shooter was in the main office of the school. A person in one room had “numerous gunshot wounds,” police said.

Groups of students — some crying, some holding hands — were being escorted away from the school by their teachers. Some students were still in the school at 10:30 a.m., parents said.

256 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:57am

re: #254 Sol Berdinowitz

It all sounds so simple, doesn't it? Just go door to door, round them up and deport them, then seal the borders so they can't get back in...

Comprehensive reform is the only reform that will work, and that will cost a heck of a lot of money and change the way we do business and agriculture in this country. Nobody is willing to take the steps necessary for that, and until then, anything in the way of "reform" is just political posturing.

Bush II did try to be reasonable on this issue, but no one would listen at the time. Now we are wondering why we didn't.

WE aren't going to mass deport --it's not feasible and the visuals of such a thing would just be compared to Stalin. No one is going to do that.

We need to accept that since the Mexican-American War, people have been crossing the border at will, basically. It's never been a problem, it is only one now because someone is using it for political gain.

The permanently paranoid are, of course, afraid of brown people.

257 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:55:45am

If only we had more guns....

258 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:47am

re: #257 Varek Raith

If only we had more guns....

WE could force people into the Psychiatrist's office?

259 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:54am

re: #256 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Bush II did try to be reasonable on this issue, but no one would listen at the time. Now we are wondering why we didn't.

One of the few things Bush tried that I could support, but his own party shot him down on it.

The only options would be to
a) institute a national citizen ID as proof of citizenship (would also end discussion of "voter ID fraud") and
b) and to seal the borders with barbed wire, trenches and armed patrols.

I cannot imagine any support from the Right or the Left for either proposal.

260 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:57:06am

I heard that the director of The Life of Pi's next movie will be a Hitchcock remake.

It's called Ang Lee Birds.

261 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:57:37am

re: #260 BongCrodny

I heard that the director of The Life of Pi's next movie will be a Hitchcock remake.

It's called Ang Lee Birds.

I'm going to red card you for that.

262 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:57:50am

re: #245 BongCrodny

Yes. If Obama does A, they say "No, no, no -- you need to do B."

Then if he does B, they say "Oh, look what that asshole is doing now."

Bryan Fischer can go piss up a rope.

Or into the wind. That would work for me.

263 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:57:54am

re: #255 lawhawk

More recent reports indicate that there might be two shooters. One dead, and one who is on the loose. CT state troopers assisting local law enforcement. Still a very chaotic scene and the situation is still being sorted out.

Sounds like it might be staff members involved.

264 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:58:00am

re: #257 Varek Raith

If only we had more guns....

Between this most recent school shooting and the reports of a school knife attack in China I started thinking, what if China's gun ownership rate began to approach our own...?

265 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:58:16am

re: #259 Sol Berdinowitz

One of the few things Bush tried that I could support, but his own party shot him down on it.

The only option would be to a) institute a national citizen ID as proof of citizenship (would also end discussion of "voter ID fraud" and to seal the borders with barbed wire, trenches and armed patrols.

I cannot imagine any support from the Right or the Left for either proposal.

The Right needs to either decide they don't want Soro's Open Society or they accept it is, in many ways, inevitable.

266 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:58:26am

re: #264 Sol Berdinowitz

Between this most recent school shooting and the reports of a school knife attack in China I started thinking, what if China's gun ownership rate began to approach our own...?

Guns shooting knives.

267 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:58:50am

re: #266 Varek Raith

Guns shooting knives.

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

268 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:00:25am

re: #264 Sol Berdinowitz

Between this most recent school shooting and the reports of a school knife attack in China I started thinking, what if China's gun ownership rate began to approach our own...?

You can't compare the US to any other country for such purposes --we are in a class all on our own.

David Hemenway tried but found it unsatisfying. He settled for other English Speaking countries of immigrants.

269 RadicalModerate  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:00:46am

re: #257 Varek Raith

If only we had more guns....

The shooting took place at an elementary school.

Do these people think that having an armed first-grade schoolteacher, or even worse, elementary school students packing is not a spectacularly bad idea?

270 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:02:37am

re: #269 RadicalModerate

The shooting took place at an elementary school.

Do these people think that having an armed first-grade schoolteacher, or even worse, elementary school students packing is not a spectacularly bad idea?

Yet we are back to the "gun-free zone" concept.

If you wanted to commit such an atrocity, would you go to a cop shop or a gun-free zone?

Someone in the building not in direct contact with the children could conceivably be armed. Even a rent-a-cop.

I don't have the answer, just musing.

271 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:28am

re: #269 RadicalModerate

The shooting took place at an elementary school.

Do these people think that having an armed first-grade schoolteacher, or even worse, elementary school students packing is not a spectacularly bad idea?

Since you asked:

272 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:42am

Just checked, with per capita gun ownership at around 90% in the USA, a similar rate would mean around one billion weapons in China.

And if gun owners in China then lined up eight abreast and started marching into the sea, would China run out of weapons?

273 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:17am

re: #269 RadicalModerate
Slightly tangential-
I kinda wonder why it is not standard to have professional security people at schools. We have them so many places. Why schools are late to that simple step just eludes me. As I recall, school buses were late to seatbelt requirements. I think we got that backwards.

274 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:53am

re: #272 Sol Berdinowitz

Just checked, with per capita gun ownership at around 90% in the USA, a similar rate would mean around one billion weapons in China.

And if gun owners in China then lined up eight abreast and started marching into the sea, would China run out of weapons?

No, but the RWNJ would freak out about the Chinese walking across the floor of the Pacific and invading the US. Wolverines!
///

275 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:05:28am

re: #273 Political Atheist

Slightly tangential-
I kinda wonder why it is not standard to have professional security people at schools. We have them so many places. Why schools are late to that simple step? As I recall, school buses were late to seatbelt requirements. I think we got that backwards.

Because the money in banks is more important to us than our children?

*spit*

276 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:10am

re: #271 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Since you asked:

[Embedded content]

...and if you arm teachers, then they're heavily armed union thugs.

A winger wet dream.

277 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:32am

Que the NRA/Gun Fetishist apologists in 5.....4....3....2....1....

disclaimer: I am a gun owner (and veteran & hunter) because the vast majority of gun owners/gun fetishists scare the living bejesus out of me

278 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:48am

re: #271 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Since you asked:

[Embedded content]

Yeah because more guns is always the solution. Sigh.

279 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:57am

re: #276 BongCrodny

...and if you arm teachers, then they're heavily armed union thugs.

A winger wet dream.

not funny...

280 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:07:19am

re: #273 Political Atheist

Slightly tangential-
I kinda wonder why it is not standard to have professional security people at schools. We have them so many places. Why schools are late to that simple step? As I recall, school buses were late to seatbelt requirements. I think we got that backwards.

Diebold has been slow to develop the remote control defense turrets for installation in all public places. Something about the target discrimination software not being able to discriminate between Democrats and Republicans and citizens and non-citizens.*

* - There's a somewhat subtle joke along these lines in one of the James Coburn "Flint" movies. In one he is dive-bombed by a bald eagle that has been trained to attack Americans.

281 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:07:27am

re: #272 Sol Berdinowitz

Just checked, with per capita gun ownership at around 90% in the USA, a similar rate would mean around one billion weapons in China.

And if gun owners in China then lined up eight abreast and started marching into the sea, would China run out of weapons?

A train of chinese travelling at x speed will intercept the Kracken swimming at y speed if the underwater current is z

282 RadicalModerate  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:08:23am

re: #273 Political Atheist

Slightly tangential-
I kinda wonder why it is not standard to have professional security people at schools. We have them so many places. Why schools are late to that simple step? As I recall, school buses were late to seatbelt requirements. I think we got that backwards.

Many middle and high schools do have security forces to deal with excessively unruly students. Typically teachers and/or principals can handle discipline on grade-schoolers, so the added expense of having an onsite security force isn't a priority - especially for cash-strapped school districts.

283 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:08:29am

re: #278 HappyWarrior

Yeah because more guns is always the solution. Sigh.

That philosophy works quite well on Call of Duty.

284 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:09:04am
285 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:09:12am

This would not have happened if it was not for _____________________ .

286 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:09:36am

re: #283 Dr. Matt

That philosophy works quite well on Call of Duty.

Heh yes it does.

287 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:09:49am

re: #285 Gus

This would not have happened if it was not for _____________________ .

homosexuals, liberals, etc.

288 RadicalModerate  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:09:55am

re: #285 Gus

This would not have happened if it was not for _____________________ .

Liberals. To these insane people, the answer is ALWAYS liberals.

289 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:25am
290 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:29am

re: #285 Gus

This would not have happened if it was not for _____________________ .

Gay Muslim puppies

291 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:53am

re: #290 Dr. Matt

Gay Muslim puppies

Gay Muslim pro choice puppies

292 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:11:12am

I wonder if there's a pro gun group out there comprised entirely of gay people. That would certainly send the wingers for a loop.

293 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:11:46am

re: #292 dragonfire1981

I wonder if there's a pro gun group out there comprised entirely of gay people. That would certainly send the wingers for a loop.

I think there is one called the "Pink Pistols"

294 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:06am

re: #292 dragonfire1981

I wonder if there's a pro gun group out there comprised entirely of gay people. That would certainly send the wingers for a loop.

There is I believe. Of course it would but it also sends them into a loop knowing that there are gay military members too. They have this fantasy where every gay man is Nathan Lane's character in The Birdcage.

295 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:20am

re: #285 Gus

This would not have happened if it was not for _____________________ .

MAGNETS!

296 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:38am

re: #292 dragonfire1981

I wonder if there's a pro gun group out there comprised entirely of gay people. That would certainly send the wingers for a loop.

There is one, and it is sending more than RWNJ's around the bend: Pink Pistols

297 allegro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:13:04am

re: #273 Political Atheist

Slightly tangential-
I kinda wonder why it is not standard to have professional security people at schools. We have them so many places. Why schools are late to that simple step? As I recall, school buses were late to seatbelt requirements. I think we got that backwards.

Perhaps hiring educators is considered to be a better use of very limited funds. Most schools are quite safe from outsiders and educational staff can typically handle student outbursts, fights, etc. (They could do a lot better on bullying.) However, hiring fulltime security personnel for a minute number of such incidents as today's is not a great use of funds, especially when teachers are having to supplement educational supplies out of their own pockets.

We have no information yet on who the shooter was or if there was more than one. We don't know if it was an adult or a child. Even if there had been dedicated security personnel, it may not have prevented the incident.

298 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:13:48am

Principal might have been killed. Unconfirmed.

299 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:15:23am

re: #297 allegro

Perhaps hiring educators is considered to be a better use of very limited funds. Most schools are quite safe from outsiders and educational staff can typically handle student outbursts, fights, etc. (They could do a lot better on bullying.) However, hiring fulltime security personnel for a minute number of such incidents as today's is not a great use of funds, especially when teachers are having to supplement educational supplies out of their own pockets.

We have no information yet on who the shooter was or if there was more than one. We don't know if it was an adult or a child. Even if there had been dedicated security personnel, it may not have prevented the incident.

Things have gotten out of hand when it goes from "helicopter parents" to "helicopter gunship parents"...

I'm just saying.
//

300 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:16:31am

One other person, the shooter, is allegedly dead. No reports of children killed.

301 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:16:50am

re: #282 RadicalModerate

Many middle and high schools do have security forces to deal with excessively unruly students. Typically teachers and/or principals can handle discipline on grade-schoolers, so the added expense of having an onsite security force isn't a priority - especially for cash-strapped school districts.

I submit in many places we have that priority wrong. I'm sure there are places where it would truly be a waste. But looking at LAUSD where I live? And the news? I think it should be far more common, if only for the outside threats that can barge in. We just had an armed jewelry robbery go bad & then spill into a college in Fullerton. It could have been an elementary school.

302 allegro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:17:08am

re: #300 Gus

One other person, the shooter, is allegedly dead. No reports of children killed.

One child dead, CNN just announced.

303 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:04am

re: #302 allegro

One child dead, CNN just announced.

There, but for the Grace of G-d, go I.

304 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:23am

re: #270 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Yet we are back to the "gun-free zone" concept.

If you wanted to commit such an atrocity, would you go to a cop shop or a gun-free zone?

Someone in the building not in direct contact with the children could conceivably be armed. Even a rent-a-cop.

I don't have the answer, just musing.

Many of the schools around here have one officer assigned to them on a part time basis. A security presence might be the one way to handle the problem.

305 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:29am

re: #298 Gus

#newtownshooting seems to indicate that someone came into the school and shot a teacher in a class. Other tweets indicate the principal was the victim.

Lots of unconfirmed reports at the moment. Police seem to be treating this as an active shooter situation.

306 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:40am

re: #302 allegro

One child dead, CNN just announced.

Just saw that.

307 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:52am

re: #300 Gus

One other person, the shooter, is allegedly dead. No reports of children killed.

Sounds like another rampage-suicide thing. This sucks. People being deranged and suicidal is not good. Being deranged enough to decide to take others with you is a lot worse. Not logical or empathic, thus it sounds like a emotional lash-out.

308 allegro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:19:31am

re: #301 Political Atheist

I submit in many places we have that priority wrong. I'm sure there are places where it would truly be a waste. But looking at LAUSD where I live? And the news? I think it should be far more common, if only for the outside threats that can barge in. We just had an armed jewelry robbery go bad & then spill into a college in Fullerton. It could have been an elementary school.

One of the most horrific of school shootings was the children killed at the Amish school.

309 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:28am

re: #304 William Barnett-Lewis

Many of the schools around here have one officer assigned to them on a part time basis. A security presence might be the one way to handle the problem.

It's not a totally United States Phenom either. Many people don't realize that. The vast majority are here in the US, but school shootings happen everywhere.

310 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:36am

re: #302 allegro

One child dead, CNN just announced.

F'ing tragic. And yet the foxtards will still lash out anyone wanting to discuss America's gun culture/obsession.

311 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:41am

I wonder how many shootings are simply a combination of depressed/angry at society/mentally unstable individuals and easy access to weaponry?

312 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:21:56am

re: #311 dragonfire1981

I wonder how many shootings are simply a combination of depressed/angry at society/mentally unstable individuals and easy access to weaponry?

I can deal with the concept of the Right to Bear Arms, but I do not see that as synonymous with the Right to Unlimited Access to Arms

313 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:21:58am

re: #309 Holidays are Family Fun Time

It's not a totally United States Phenom either. Many people don't realize that. The vast majority are here in the US, but school shootings happen everywhere.

In high school in Canada we only briefly had a security presence after the Columbine shootings. The rest of the time it was just a part time cop who would drop in every now and then. My school never had a problem with violence outside of the typical yard fights.

314 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:04am

It sucks. I still remember Virginia Tech very well because I had a lot of friends and a cousin going there at the time. They were okay fortunately but many other friends and families weren't so lucky. I don't know honestly know what the solution to this is.

315 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:31am

re: #292 dragonfire1981

I wonder if there's a pro gun group out there comprised entirely of gay people. That would certainly send the wingers for a loop.

Heck, The Liberal Gun Club web site sends the wingers into spasms on a semi-regular basis. Don't you know it is impossible to be a liberal and own a gun? Those trolls are almost as dumb as the creationists and anti-AGW ones here.

316 GunstarGreen  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:56am

re: #59 Kragar

Tom Ulrich @thomasulrich

Blessed with a great family. Five follower, Conservative with a Doctorate in Common Sense. Becoming someone who really is discusted by the left.

Discusted?

I am disappoint.

His doctorate is in Common Sense™, not that thar ivery taower spellink.

317 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:23:06am

More info on school shootings around the world.

Why schools? I don't get it. Gun-free zones or not.

318 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:23:13am

re: #314 HappyWarrior

It sucks. I still remember Virginia Tech very well because I had a lot of friends and a cousin going there at the time. They were okay fortunately but many other friends and families weren't so lucky. I don't know honestly know what the solution to this is.

Better laws to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them and easier access to mental health/counselling services for those who truly need them.

Not that it's ever going to happen in our lifetimes...

319 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:23:17am

re: #279 Sol Berdinowitz

not funny...

Why no it's not. But it is rather accurate in my experience.

I cannot get why some people do not also get why having an armed teacher in a kindergarten class is a bad idea. I really get the idea they've never dealt with large numbers of children who are curious and attention seekers and consistently getting into things they shouldn't get into.

I also cannot get some people to understand what's going to happen when you get armed teachers. Police will still respond to the shooting. They get there and see someone with pistol in hand. If things go well the teacher puts the weapon down and nothing happens. Things in reality do not go well. People don't hear commands because they're stressed or they're deafened by gunshots or they've got kids screaming right next to them. Police don't shout commands as clearly as they ought, or get high on adrenaline and pull the trigger as the words are coming out of their mouths. And that's just the police. Run the scenario with five teachers and an unknown shooter. How many teachers shoot another teacher?

Also and fwiw, most schools with which I've dealt over the past few years have a security connection - a police officer, mostly.

The easy answer of just arming everyone is stupid.

320 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:23:30am

re: #314 HappyWarrior

It sucks. I still remember Virginia Tech very well because I had a lot of friends and a cousin going there at the time. They were okay fortunately but many other friends and families weren't so lucky. I don't know honestly know what the solution to this is.

Education on guns (mandatory if necessary) and a greater amount of attention paid to mental health issues. That would be a start.

321 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:23:39am

re: #297 allegro

Perhaps hiring educators is considered to be a better use of very limited funds. Most schools are quite safe from outsiders and educational staff can typically handle student outbursts, fights, etc. (They could do a lot better on bullying.) However, hiring fulltime security personnel for a minute number of such incidents as today's is not a great use of funds, especially when teachers are having to supplement educational supplies out of their own pockets.

We have no information yet on who the shooter was or if there was more than one. We don't know if it was an adult or a child. Even if there had been dedicated security personnel, it may not have prevented the incident.

Agreed. I just saw a reference to a table that indicated that the average number of students in a primary school was somewhere between 400 and 500.

So: how many armed guards would you need to provide security for ~~400-500 students? One? Five?

Figure the cost of one armed guard would be a minimum of $40,000 per year including salary and benefits, you're looking at taking a lot of money out of a school's budget.

322 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:24:00am

We had security at my high school as I recall. A few guys including a retired cop I believe. Their job was mostly to prevent kids from taking the school's back exit into the nearby neighborhood and go home. I also remember them preventing a big group fight my freshman year. After security stopped that, nothing came of the fight from what I know.

323 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:24:31am

re: #320 Feline Fearless Leader

Education on guns (mandatory if necessary) and a greater amount of attention paid to mental health issues. That would be a start.

Agree.

324 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:24:45am

Perhaps some retired military vets would be willing to volunteer their services for school security?

325 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:24:50am

re: #318 dragonfire1981

Better laws to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them and easier access to mental health/counselling services for those who truly need them.

Not that it's ever going to happen in our lifetimes...

Sounds good to me.

326 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:25:13am

re: #320 Feline Fearless Leader

Education on guns (mandatory if necessary) and a greater amount of attention paid to mental health issues. That would be a start.

I like the way you think :P

327 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:08am

re: #302 allegro

There had been reports that a child had been carried by law enforcement to an ambulance in bad shape - could be the same child.

Damn. Just damn....

And you've got people who think that this is some kind of acceptable level of violence or that more guns would have prevented this? Really? Nearly 300 million guns in circulation and we don't have enough of them?

Heck, we've got repeated reports that even professional law enforcement agencies like the NYPD aren't doing enough firearms training and that could be leading to higher numbers of injuries among bystanders and those involved in police-involved shootings and we're somehow to believe that having more guns among those who don't have even that level of training will reduce the number of people killed or injured in firearms crimes?

Same story about the Colorado movie theater massacre - claiming that if someone had a gun in that chaotic situation could have saved lives - even though at least one person was killed by a bullet coming through the wall from an adjacent theater. As if everyone is going to have perfect fire discipline or understand who to even engage in as a target - and then when law enforcement shows up - knowing who was trying to stop the guy on the rampage and who was the innocent (and we've got local NYC metro area experience not long ago with that as a law enforcement officer was killed because other law enforcement thought he was the perp)

328 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:34am

re: #326 dragonfire1981

I like the way you think :P

Is the fluoride in the water already making you think obedient, peaceful, and socialist thoughts?
// ;)

329 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:55am

re: #324 dragonfire1981

Perhaps some retired military vets would be willing to volunteer their services for school security?

Jesus, no.

Infantry and police work are dramatically different things, never mind driving a tank or working in the machinery spaces of a ship.

330 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:27:18am

re: #320 Feline Fearless Leader

Education on guns (mandatory if necessary) and a greater amount of attention paid to mental health issues. That would be a start.

There is more training required to get a driver's license than there is to buy a weapon and or even get a CHL/CWL in most states. In Florida someone can get a CWL after spending a mere 3 hours in a class at a gun show, take a 15 minute test, then fire a single round at 10 feet.....I'm not exaggerating.

331 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:28:16am

from the wiki referenced above:

"Bullying is common in schools and seemed to play a role in the lives of many of the school shooters"[17] A typical bullying interaction consist of three parts, the offender/bully, a victim and one or more bystanders. This formula of three enables the bully to easily create public humiliation for their victim. Once humiliated, victims never want to be a victim again and try to regain their image by joining groups. Often, they are rejected by their peers and followthrough by restoring justice in what they see as an unjust situation. [18] Their plan for restoration many times results in violence as shown by the school shooters Nathan Ferris, Edmar Aparecido Freitas, Brian Head, Seung-Hui Cho, Wellington Menezes Oliveira, and Jeff Weise."

immaturity and guns and testosterone

332 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:03am

re: #330 Dr. Matt

There is more training required to get a driver's license than there is to buy a weapon and or even get a CHL/CWL in most states. In Florida someone can get a CWL after spending a mere 3 hours in a class at a gun show, take a 15 minute test, than fire a single round at 10 feet.....I'm not exaggerating.

And this is part of the problem if you ask me. I don't think it should be made near impossible to get a gun but at the same time, I think it's perfectly reasonable to do things like background checks.

333 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:06am

re: #329 erik_t

Jesus, no.

Infantry and police work are dramatically different things, never mind driving a tank or working in the machinery spaces of a ship.

Even MP's are drastically different than civilian police even if some of what they do is the same.

334 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:30:27am

re: #330 Dr. Matt

There is more training required to get a driver's license than there is to buy a weapon and or even get a CHL/CWL in most states.

That's because you have a constitutional right to own a gun but not one to drive a car, so driver's license laws = okay, gun laws = OMG creeping sharia socialist facist TYRANNY!!!1!!

335 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:30:55am

re: #330 Dr. Matt

There is more training required to get a driver's license than there is to buy a weapon and or even get a CHL/CWL in most states. In Florida someone can get a CWL after spending a mere 3 hours in a class at a gun show, take a 15 minute test, than fire a single round at 10 feet.....I'm not exaggerating.

We tried to get a meaningful training requirement for Wisconsin's CCL but the NRA had a shitfit & the Republican's tucked tail and ran.

336 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:31:31am

I have to be productive.

carry on . .

337 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:31:58am

re: #332 HappyWarrior

And this is part of the problem if you ask me. I don't think it should be made near impossible to get a gun but at the same time, I think it's perfectly reasonable to do things like background checks.

I concur. But most politicians are too cowardly to have that conversation.

338 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:32:39am

re: #321 BongCrodny

NYC has a NYPD school safety division for NYC schools. 5,000 officers to watch over 1,700 schools. That covers more than 1.1 million students, plus 75,000 teachers plus admin.

339 Fart Knocker  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:34:07am

You have to have a federal background check to buy a gun from a dealer (yes even at a "gun show"). You have to have a criminal background check performed to get a concealed carry license in "may" or "shall issue" states.

340 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:34:43am

re: #330 Dr. Matt

There is more training required to get a driver's license than there is to buy a weapon and or even get a CHL/CWL in most states. In Florida someone can get a CWL after spending a mere 3 hours in a class at a gun show, take a 15 minute test, than fire a single round at 10 feet.....I'm not exaggerating.

Something the equivalent to the standard hunter safety course would be a minimal start. Drill in basic weapon safety and the concept of analyzing the "shoot, no shoot" scenario. The course I took back in the mid-90s in PA was mainly 12-14 year-olds plus a few adults like me. They also included a demonstration showing that bullets were dangerous and rifles and ammo were to be taken seriously.

(Though if that sticks is not clear since a number of the people I deer hunted with were trigger-happy nuts. There are automatic weapons and semi-automatic weapons, but you can still get a decent amount of lead downrange fairly rapidly with a lever- or bolt- action rifle. Hearing bullets whirring through the leaves 20' over your head makes you hit the dirt and find something solid to hide behind real quick.)

Farther afield would be getting into the "draft everyone for 3-5 years" stuff that various other country's do. Which obviously includes much more intense weapons training and range time.

341 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:27am

re: #327 lawhawk

There had been reports that a child had been carried by law enforcement to an ambulance in bad shape - could be the same child.

Damn. Just damn....

And you've got people who think that this is some kind of acceptable level of violence or that more guns would have prevented this? Really? Nearly 300 million guns in circulation and we don't have enough of them?

Heck, we've got repeated reports that even professional law enforcement agencies like the NYPD aren't doing enough firearms training and that could be leading to higher numbers of injuries among bystanders and those involved in police-involved shootings and we're somehow to believe that having more guns among those who don't have even that level of training will reduce the number of people killed or injured in firearms crimes?

Same story about the Colorado movie theater massacre - claiming that if someone had a gun in that chaotic situation could have saved lives - even though at least one person was killed by a bullet coming through the wall from an adjacent theater. As if everyone is going to have perfect fire discipline or understand who to even engage in as a target - and then when law enforcement shows up - knowing who was trying to stop the guy on the rampage and who was the innocent (and we've got local NYC metro area experience not long ago with that as a law enforcement officer was killed because other law enforcement thought he was the perp)

Two things on this:

People have argued that in a situation like this, it's the element of surprise that controls the events. The guy with the gun firing is always going to be able to squeeze off several shots if that's his intention, as opposed to just waving the gun around waiting for someone to shoot him.

I could be misremembering this, but someone in an earlier thread mentioned that with Colorado's lax concealed carry laws, it was likely that at least one or two theater patrons would have been carrying, and yet nobody took action.

The second is the argument that was made regarding the guy who recently got crushed by the subway car: most people *won't* react immediately to something like that; they'll just stand around waiting for something to happen.

342 Dr. Matt  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:39am

re: #340 Feline Fearless Leader

Something the equivalent to the standard hunter safety course would be a minimal start. Drill in basic weapon safety and the concept of analyzing the "shoot, no shoot" scenario. The course I took back in the mid-90s in PA was mainly 12-14 year-olds plus a few adults like me. They also included a demonstration showing that bullets were dangerous and rifles and ammo were to be taken seriously.

Excellent suggestions (I've been saying the same thing for years). We spent countless hours training (and retraining) in the military to safely handle rifles and pistols. I valued that education. Frankly, it scares me that so many people are walking around armed with so little knowledge of how to safely carry, handle, and fire a weapon. When you have untrained bozos with CWLs thinking they are LEOs, we end up getting George Zimmerman's of the world.

343 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:38:24am

re: #338 lawhawk

NYC has a NYPD school safety division for NYC schools. 5,000 officers to watch over 1,700 schools. That covers more than 1.1 million students, plus 75,000 teachers plus admin.

Annual budget a quarter of a billion dollars.

That sounds like it would be awfully expensive to implement nationwide.

344 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:46:00am

re: #339 Fart Knocker

You have to have a federal background check to buy a gun from a dealer (yes even at a "gun show"). You have to have a criminal background check performed to get a concealed carry license in "may" or "shall issue" states.

Do you have a cite for that? I've read a couple things that have indicated that that's not necessarily the case.

This is from wiki, for example:

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.[16][17]

(Bolded text mine)

345 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:39:06am

re: #271 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Since you asked:

Shooters attack an elementary school in CT - another "gun-free zone." Makes children sitting ducks. kltv.com/story/20345707...

— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) December 14, 2012

Yes, sitting ducks rather than crossfire victims. Take your pick I guess, huh Bry?


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