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1 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:42:41pm

And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."

2 leftynyc  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:44:07pm

Repeating from downstairs - NY Post reporting that shooters name was Adam Lanza. Older brother's name is Ryan and the police are questioning him.

3 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:45:01pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."

I totally expect the ODS-infected mob will make up a conspiracy that "Obama was behind this just in order to take our guns away!" Wait for it.

4 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:46:00pm

Obama's statement was spot-on and left me in tears.

I liked his choice of Psalm 147 to conclude. ([Link: www.mechon-mamre.org...] )

5 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:46:23pm

re: #3 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I totally expect the ODS-infected mob will make up a conspiracy that "Obama was behind this just in order to take our guns away!" Wait for it.

6 Alexzander  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:47:18pm

re: #2 leftynyc

Repeating from downstairs - NY Post reporting that shooters name was Adam Lanza. Older brother's name is Ryan and the police are questioning him.

Could that be the same Ryan that was first mis-identified as the shooter?

7 simoom  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:47:53pm


8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:48:33pm

Latest police press conference - 26 dead, 20 children, 6 adults. The murderer is dead as well. And another adult dead in Hoboken.

Declined to make a positive identification of the killer.

9 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:48:57pm

re: #4 ReamWorks SKG

Obama's statement was spot-on and left me in tears.

So true.. Just one of many reasons I'm proud he is our President

10 RadicalModerate  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:49:01pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."

I'm already seeing on some wingnut sites claiming that Obama's tears were fake, and that it proves that the mass killing was some sort of "false flag" operation.

Honestly, these people are not right in the head.

11 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:49:58pm

re: #10 RadicalModerate

I'm already seeing on some wingnut sites claiming that Obama's tears were fake, and that it proves that the mass killing was some sort of "false flag" operation.

Honestly, these people are not right in the head.

Be glad that jedi powers are fictional. The Dark Side would be very strong in a lot of these people.
/

12 leftynyc  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:51:45pm

re: #6 Alexzander

Could that be the same Ryan that was first mis-identified as the shooter?

I honestly don't know. I saw this on the CNN twitter feed.

13 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:52:29pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."

It already has, the Freepers are wondering how us liberals manage to get people to do these suicide missions as false flag operations against the 2nd Amendment.

Really...sigh. :(

14 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:54:55pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."

First he will be excoriated for "politicizing a tragedy" One that had nothing to do with guns...

15 Big Steve  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:54:58pm

Those among us who are parents, whether our children at 8 days old or 38 years old, know for certain that the humanness has been torn out of the parents whose children were lost today. You simply sent your baby off to kindergarten today and they didn't come back. I am the most stable person you will ever meet, yet I doubt I could survive were this to have happened to me.

16 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:57:00pm

re: #15 Big Steve

Those among us who are parents, whether our children at 8 days old or 38 years old, know for certain that the humanness has been torn out of the parents whose children were lost today. You simply sent your baby off to kindergarten today and they didn't come back. I am the most stable person you will ever meet, yet I doubt I could survive were this to have happened to me.

^^^This.

17 Awea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:57:12pm

20 more minutes til my daughter gets out of school (4th grade) been holding myself back from going early and taking her home.

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:57:55pm

I have four kids between 6 - 14 years old. But we are here in godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe, so I am not as scared for their safety as I would be if we were living in God's own Country, the Land of Bryan Fischer and the Covenant with The Lord.

19 Bulworth  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:01:12pm
Latest police press conference - 26 dead, 20 children, 6 adults. The murderer is dead as well. And another adult dead in Hoboken.

That's really just....

Unspeakable.

20 A Mom Anon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:02:32pm

I have been caring for an injured dog and a sick teenager today and I just heard about this. What the hell can you say about something so freaking horrible?

The Universe keeps presenting us with this shit for a reason. At what fucking point do we get to have a grown up discussion about mental health,gun ownership with rules that are enforced and a society that thinks violence is entertaining?

I'm going to go back to caring for my family today and say a prayer that all of these families can find some way back from the horrible darkness that has enveloped their lives now. God Fucking Damnit,it's happened again. Shit.

21 Big Steve  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:04:06pm

re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz

Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.

22 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:04:24pm

Transcript of the President's statement

23 leftynyc  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:04:36pm

re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz

I have four kids between 6 - 14 years old. But we are here in godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe, so I am not as scared for their safety as I would be if we were living in God's own Country, the Land of Bryan Fischer and the Covenant with The Lord.

I really hope you don't mind that I copied your comment to show people (like minded) on another site. I really should have asked you first and I apologize for that.

24 Petero1818  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:06:29pm

I truly hope that out of this unspeakable tragedy comes the impetus for an honest and frank discussion about the issues inherent in this sort of thing. I am just sick about it, and it is not the time for political points. But this is simply too horrible to continue to kick the can down the road again on these issues.

25 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:08:18pm
26 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:08:31pm

For what it's worth Fox is now "confirming" that the shooter was 20 year old Adam Lanza and that police are questioning his older brother 24 year old Ryan Lanza in New jersey now.

The way misinformation is being thrown around this afternoon we will probably be told that this report is incorrect also later.

27 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:08:53pm

Not trying to make a joke here, but how will the dissonance handle calling unionized groups "thugs" (which has especially included teachers at times) and also calling for arming and training them to repel these liberal-socialist attacks?

28 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:09:23pm

Back. Right wing watch has the Fischer video up, I couldn't stomach it.

29 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:10:28pm

re: #28 Randall Gross

Back. Right wing watch has the Fischer video up, I couldn't stomach it.

I saw it. I may post it later, but not right now.

30 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:10:58pm

re: #20 A Mom Anon

I have been caring for an injured dog and a sick teenager today and I just heard about this. What the hell can you say about something so freaking horrible?

The Universe keeps presenting us with this shit for a reason. At what fucking point do we get to have a grown up discussion about mental health,gun ownership with rules that are enforced and a society that thinks violence is entertaining?

I'm going to go back to caring for my family today and say a prayer that all of these families can find some way back from the horrible darkness that has enveloped their lives now. God Fucking Damnit,it's happened again. Shit.

Its is tragic that the gun issue is dominated by paranoid freaks who think they need an arsenal to fight another civil war against their own government. How did they become the dominant voice on this issue instead of sane people?

31 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:11:14pm

re: #21 Big Steve

Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.

Not today...I can understand that. My kids were already home from school when I got the news here...but America needs to have this discussion - as soon as the facts are cleared and the funerals have all been held.

This shit will not go away until America takes a good long look at its approach to guns, violence and mental health issues

32 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:11:22pm

re: #27 Feline Fearless Leader

Not trying to make a joke here, but how will the dissonance handle calling unionized groups "thugs" (which has especially included teachers at times) and also calling for arming and training them to repel these liberal-socialist attacks?

No shit. I've heard the same thing from a couple wingnuts now: "If the teachers had been armed..." Yeah, and then what? You going to start paying them hazard pay as well? Provide funds for them to train on how to handle those guns? And how many of these nutbars who think public schools are indoctrination centers would trust armed teachers in the classroom?

33 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:11:37pm

re: #23 leftynyc

I really hope you don't mind that I copied your comment to show people (like minded) on another site. I really should have asked you first and I apologize for that.

I put it on a blog, it is fair game.

34 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:12:17pm

re: #21 Big Steve

Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.

I respectfully disagree.
This is a discussion long in the making and we've been kicking down the road for far too long.
We need a serious discussion of our gun culture and lack of mental health care.
No more ignoring it.

35 CarleeCork  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:12:40pm

re: #30 aagcobb

Its is tragic that the gun issue is dominated by paranoid freaks who think they need an arsenal to fight another civil war against their own government. How did they become the dominant voice on this issue instead of sane people?

The power of the NRA.

36 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:13:47pm

re: #21 Big Steve

Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.

If not now, when? If not us, who?

Or perhaps you've not noticed that "not now, we need some time before we can talk about this" always seems to last till the next time something happens?

37 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:14:01pm

Dispatch audio released

Youtube Video
38 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:14:17pm

re: #35 CarleeCork

The power of the NRA.

Yep. The NRA, funded by "reasonable gun owners," is run by anti-gun control nuts who live in constant fear that if they don't keep people afraid of being branded "anti-gun," that another Brady Bill will appear on the horizon.

39 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:15:00pm

The 2nd Amendment says "Well-Regulated Militia."

Time to well regulate who gets guns. Don't particularly care about what guns (aside from wanting their to be a limit to magazine size for guns with those. Esssentially, you have to use factory recommended ammo load.

Now, since I have departed from the the realm of American Pro-Gun to European Pro-Gun, what should my nic be now?

MuslimLiberal? Islamic Liberal? Something else entirely?

40 dr. luba  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:15:21pm

re: #21 Big Steve

So when do we go there? We keep putting off these discussions, pretend everything is just peachy in this greatest of all possible countries, and nothing changes.

More martyrs to freedom and the second amendment. The least we could do is build them a monument.

41 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:16:10pm

re: #21 Big Steve

Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.

Go where?

42 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:16:35pm

re: #35 CarleeCork

The power of the NRA.

They were Grover Norquisting conservative candidates before Grover Norquist.
/

43 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:16:48pm

re: #32 Targetpractice

No shit. I've heard the same thing from a couple wingnuts now: "If the teachers had been armed..." Yeah, and then what? You going to start paying them hazard pay as well? Provide funds for them to train on how to handle those guns? And how many of these nutbars who think public schools are indoctrination centers would trust armed teachers in the classroom?

If you arm the teachers, you give them two diametrically opposed charges: protect the children and to take down the shooter. You either get the children to safety (remove them as targets) or you risk their safety by trying to kill the shooter. Trying to do both almost guaruntees you AND the children will get killed. Why do you think police try to clear the area around a shooter of civilians FIRST?

44 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:18pm

re: #41 Obdicut

Go where?

To godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe.

45 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:24pm

AP is now confirming that the killer's name was Adam Lanza.

46 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:44pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

Yep. The NRA, funded by "reasonable gun owners," is run by anti-gun control nuts who live in constant fear that if they don't keep people afraid of being branded "anti-gun," that another Brady Bill will appear on the horizon.

It took a Republican Icon of a president getting shot to get as far as a Brady Bill, one which has been de-clawed successively ever since it was begrudgingly passed...

I fear that schoolkids will have to die by the busload before they can make any more progress

47 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:55pm
48 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:18:12pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I may vomit.

49 brennant  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:18:36pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

Sad.

50 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:18:50pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

How many guns do Ann and Sean have on their persons right now?

51 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:19:11pm

From the audio:

"Send buses -- send everything" "you might have to call Danbury"

52 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:19:34pm

re: #39 ProMayaLiberal

The 2nd Amendment says "Well-Regulated Militia."

Time to well regulate who gets guns. Don't particularly care about what guns (aside from wanting their to be a limit to magazine size for guns with those. Esssentially, you have to use factory recommended ammo load.

Now, since I have departed from the the realm of American Pro-Gun to European Pro-Gun, what should my nic be now?

MuslimLiberal? Islamic Liberal? Something else entirely?

To be clear, many people in the US hand-load ammo and its a fairly harmless practice in and of itself.

53 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:19:42pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Dear Ann,
History and statistics say otherwise. If that were true, we'd be the safest place on the planet.
Moron.

54 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:20:04pm

re: #39 ProMayaLiberal

In addition, I'm not sure I see the reasoning for Concealed Carry. Does Concealed Carry reduce crime? I'm under the impression it doesn't.

Guns should be used hunting, sport, defense for home invasion, and when shit really hits the fan (Hello Katrina).

55 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:20:25pm

re: #48 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I may vomit.

I'd like to vomit on Ann Coulter. It's no less than she deserves.

56 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:20:53pm

re: #53 Varek Raith

Dear Ann,
History and statistics say otherwise. If that were true, we'd be the safest place on the planet.
Moron.

"Attention Slug" would be more appropriate. Not necessarily being stupid, just slimy, spineless and constantly seeking to be in the center of the news.

57 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:21:15pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

I think I should be more clear.

Let's say that a gun has a maximum clip size of 10 rounds. You should not be allowed to get one that does 15.

58 leftynyc  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:21:45pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Annie knows she screwed the pooch when he came out as not hating the gay....the audience for her books was not happy and all she's been doing since is trying to get them back to her side so she can continue to fleece them. She's slime.

59 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:21:54pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

I'd like to vomit on Ann Coulter. It's no less than she deserves.

After seeing some of the things she writes, she damn-well might try to marry you if you did that to her.

60 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:22:46pm

It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.

61 Petero1818  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:23:02pm

As I now understand it, he went to the school to kill his mother, a teacher there, and killed all those kids in her class too. I am having a very difficult time understanding how what was essentially a horrible domestic dispute led to this insanity.

62 dr. luba  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:23:36pm

David Frum, today:

A permissive gun regime is not the only reason that the United States suffers so many atrocities like the one in Connecticut. An inadequate mental health system is surely at least as important a part of the answer, as are half a dozen other factors arising from some of the deepest wellsprings of American culture.

Nor can anybody promise that more rational gun laws would prevent each and every mass murder in this country. Gun killings do occur even in countries that restrict guns with maximum severity.

But we can say that if the United States worked harder to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people, there would be many, many fewer atrocities like the one in Connecticut.

And I'll say: I'll accept no lectures about "sensitivity" on days of tragedy like today from people who work the other 364 days of the year against any attempt to prevent such tragedies.

It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.

63 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:13pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

Yep. The NRA, funded by "reasonable gun owners," is run by anti-gun control nuts who live in constant fear that if they don't keep people afraid of being branded "anti-gun," that another Brady Bill will appear on the horizon.

Heck, some paranoid soul over on FR was concerned that the President's statements were made in the "Brady Briefing Room". Um, isn't that pretty much where most of that sort of thing happens?

64 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:18pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

Today did finally find my breaking point on this. Time for regulations.

Did anyone have an answer the Concealed Carry question I had earlier.

65 brennant  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:22pm

It's a pretty shitty day when POTUS has to come on TV and cry. Fuck.

66 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:27pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.

From Limbaugh's daily email (I tried 5 times to unsubscribe)

"A shooting at a school, and it's just awful. It is terrible, incomprehensible. But I'm gonna tell you something. As we sit here at this very moment, you know it and I know it. There are liberals trying to find a way to blame this on conservatives or Republicans." - Rush

and

Left Mobilizes to Politicize Connecticut Shooting

67 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:55pm

re: #61 Petero1818

I mentioned it earlier in the last thread when we found out it was his mother: guy possibly thought his mother loved those children more than him, so he killed her out of jealousy/depression/madness and killed the children out of sheer spite.

68 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:05pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.

And better mental health systems. And fight back against fetishiziation of vigilantism, revenge, and all that shit.

69 Tigger2  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:20pm

I'll tell ya when I think there will be gun control pushed, it will be if something like this ever happens at a exclusive boarding school and a bunch of millionaires and billionaires kids are killed, Politicians will be flocking to pass laws for the people that finance their campaigns.

70 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:36pm

Various media continues to confirm that Adam Lanza was the killer and that police are interviewing his brother Ryan Lanza.

71 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:44pm

re: #46 Sol Berdinowitz

It took a Republican Icon of a president getting shot to get as far as a Brady Bill, one which has been de-clawed successively ever since it was begrudgingly passed...

I fear that schoolkids will have to die by the busload before they can make any more progress

That only happened because Reagan was always pro-gun control. Especially of the "keep guns out of the hands of poor &/or minority people". He did more to advance gun control in the ban everything you possibly can sense than anyone else. And the masterpiece came after when they blamed it on the Democrats instead.

Another problem is that the Brady bunch is as dishonest as the NRA if not more so. Until there are responsible voices framing the debate on all sides nothing is going to happen any more than the Congress is going to raise taxes enough to fund the physical & mental health care system this nation desperately needs.

72 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:47pm

re: #62 dr. luba

Good heavens! How did that little bit of sanity sneak out? Good for him.

73 brennant  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:48pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

Rush can eat a bag of dicks. Ugh.

74 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:26:31pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?

On what planet does that make any sort of sense?

75 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:26:31pm

I can accept the concept of guns for sport, hunting and self-defense, but who needs assault weapons for self-defense?

76 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:26:50pm

re: #73 brennant

Rush can eat a bag of dicks. Ugh.

He and Coulter and Fischer should be locked in a room with a bunch of guns and no food.

77 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:27:14pm

re: #57 ProMayaLiberal

I think I should be more clear.

Let's say that a gun has a maximum clip size of 10 rounds. You should not be allowed to get one that does 15.

Rather non-workable when there a number of firearms designed for magazines of multiple sizes for different purposes (the normal magazine for a Glock 17 is 17 rounds, not 10). But I'm going to stop on this topic before I slip up and get sandbagged.

78 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:00pm

re: #69 Tigger2

I'll tell ya when there will be gun control pushed, it will be if something like this ever happens at a exclusive boarding school and a bunch of millionaires and billionaires kids are killed, Politicians will be flocking to pass laws for the people that finance their campaigns.

The victims of the Norway Killer (July '11) essentially fit your profile... not necessarily rich, but elite.

79 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:25pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

From Limbaugh's daily email (I tried 5 times to unsubscribe)

Six times.

You have been successfully unsubscribed.

We shall see...

80 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:30pm

re: #64 ProMayaLiberal

Today did finally find my breaking point on this. Time for regulations.

Did anyone have an answer the Concealed Carry question I had earlier.

Vs. open carry? No idea. I would think with open carry people would be less likely to carry out a crime seeing that, plus lots of these folks are the power-projecting type who want folks to know they're armed.

Concealed just makes it easier to go around with a gun without people being overly suspicious. Also for the 'hero' types who don't want anybody seeing their gun so that they can shoot a criminal at any given moment.

Who knows. Dumb, angry, and well-armed is no way to go through life, son.

81 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:34pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

I understand that. But that last magazine should be the size limit.

re: #75 Sol Berdinowitz

Personally, I would prefer a repeater, but I am imagining in a situation like Katrina or worse. Where society, as a result of a massive disaster, begins to break down.

82 Tigger2  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:30:11pm

re: #78 Capitalist Tool

The victims of the Norway Killer (July '11) essentially fit your profile... not necessarily rich, but elite.

That didn't happen here.

83 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:30:12pm

re: #76 wrenchwench

He and Coulter and Fischer should be locked in a room with a bunch of guns and no food.

Youtube Video
84 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:30:18pm

As much as the gun nuts are against controlling the sale of weapons, they and most self declared conservatives are also against public funding of mental health care. Between the two - gun control and mental health care - I'd say the latter is even more desperately in need of a serious overhaul in our public policies and laws.

There are very many people out there who are very violent, have seriously unresolved relational issues, and many of whom likely also would qualify as being diagnosed with some kind of mental illness. And yet treatment options are too costly, or not even attempted because there is no one to make an intervention.

85 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:01pm

re: #81 ProMayaLiberal

Personally, I would prefer a repeater, but I am imagining in a situation like Katrina or worse. Where society, as a result of a massive disaster, begins to break down.

And that is a scenario that still gives me the willies - pickups full of goombahs with assault weapons shooting everything that looks suspicious to them...if order does break down over large areas due to some natural/man-made catastrophe, it could start looking like Somalia.

86 brennant  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:35pm

re: #76 wrenchwench

Hunger Games-y?

87 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:36pm

re: #78 Capitalist Tool

Norway had a sane response.

I would object to them being called elite. Some of those killed where refugees from the ravaged Middle East, and others immigrants from impoverished Africa and some Middle East Nations.

I would characterize those kids as involved activists who were going to work for a better world. And Norway has had no huge change from the disaster.

88 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:39pm

re: #62 dr. luba

David Frum, today:

A permissive gun regime is not the only reason that the United States suffers so many atrocities like the one in Connecticut. An inadequate mental health system is surely at least as important a part of the answer, as are half a dozen other factors arising from some of the deepest wellsprings of American culture.

Nor can anybody promise that more rational gun laws would prevent each and every mass murder in this country. Gun killings do occur even in countries that restrict guns with maximum severity.

But we can say that if the United States worked harder to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people, there would be many, many fewer atrocities like the one in Connecticut.

And I'll say: I'll accept no lectures about "sensitivity" on days of tragedy like today from people who work the other 364 days of the year against any attempt to prevent such tragedies.

It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.

Spot on. I was debating with myself about whether to share something I heard from a gun cultist today but enough is enough.
The cultist said we don't need gun control, we need "nut control." Ignoring the crassness of the terminology, I pointed out that the Republicans have made that more difficult as well through their constant efforts to reduce mental health funding. Here in Texas, mental health has taken a series of big hits under Governor Perry's successive corporate welfare budgets. Plenty of guns and millions of disturbed people with nowhere to turn is a sure recipe for disaster.

89 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:02pm

As horrible as this shooting is, I just heard someone from the Oakland, CA school system asked about how this was going to be dealt with in their schools. She mentioned councillors, etc. and then pointed out that their school system loses 20 school-aged children each year to gun violence. In fairness, that is presumably a larger group (it's a K-12 district) and probably includes a lot of gang violence so is generally not a school-related thing, but it is also only one city.
Could we just stop shooting our children and having them out there shooting one another? Please?

90 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:34pm

re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz

Which is why we need a more stringent system for who has guns. It should be an involved process.

91 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:49pm

re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz

And that is a scenario that still gives me the willies - pickups full of goombahs with assault weapons shooting everything that looks suspicious to them...if order does break down over large areas due to some natural/man-made catastrophe, it could start looking like Somalia.

If that were to happen, it'll look like Somalia just about anywhere. Major disasters are extreme cases, and the law really needs to be written with more ordinary concerns like home invasions and mentally ill people in mind.

92 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:51pm

There will be no significant limit on gun ownership until the Supreme Court reverses itself or a constitutional amendment is ratified. In other words, not in most of our lifetimes. You can't get there from here.

93 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:53pm

NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.

He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.

94 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:35:26pm

re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz

And that is a scenario that still gives me the willies - pickups full of goombahs with assault weapons shooting everything that looks suspicious to them...if order does break down over large areas due to some natural/man-made catastrophe, it could start looking like Somalia.

Maybe not, if Sean Penn shows up and starts paddling around with his "gauge"... keep the situation well in hand.

95 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:36:23pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

It's not just the guns, it's also gun-culture. It's the kind of attitude that thinks saying "We came unarmed this time" is proper, or claims that the 2nd amendment is the one that safeguards the other ones. It's the fetishization of guns.

96 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:00pm

re: #74 Lidane

How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?

More Guns, Less Crime, the sacred scripture of gun fetishists. And pretty much pseudoscience. Coincidentally, the study's author lost the data set in a fire, so no one can actually use his data set to test his conclusions. But even without the raw data, there's issues like pooling together crime data from inner cities and near-empty rural areas to get the "where there are more guns, there is less crime" numbers.

Also, the author creates econometric analyses for right-wing wing propaganda outfits to "prove" radical free market capitalism is what works best.

97 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:19pm

re: #57 ProMayaLiberal

Reasonable restrictions on max load for a clip or magazine sounds good, but easily circumvented - simply own more clips/magazines. It might take longer to reload, but a determined shooter will still do tremendous damage. It is a start though. And it could give someone a chance to overtake a gunman while they're reloading.

98 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:28pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

Exactly.

It is more an issue of the gun culture than anything else.

In Israel and Switzerland for example, guns are found in virtually every home because of mandatory conscription and reserve duty. Nevertheless, we don't have these kinds of crimes there to any great degree.

They do not share our gun culture, the need for cowboy like vigilante justice and they don't tolerate an individual's fantasy as a 'right'.

99 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:48pm

It's not going to be a simple panacea fix. There are multiple facets that need to be addressed, it will not be keep, and we will be changing our cultural mores and operations. All of which guarantees that at least 35% of our population will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into it through a multi-year (more likely multi-decade) implementation.

The first step though is deciding to actually start discussing it rather than a quick volley of conflicting talking head statements followed by an immediate return to the status quo.

100 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:38:01pm

CBS just showed Ryan Lanza being led in handcuffs, by police.

101 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:38:21pm

re: #74 Lidane

How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?

On what planet does that make any sort of sense?

They obviously mean that guns should be in the hands of the "right" people, and we all know who they mean...

102 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:38:34pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.

But I think depression often is a factor. That might be more easily treated than psychosis. The trouble with providing mental health care (aside from the fact that we don't seem interested in doing so) is that many mentally ill people don't think they have a problem. Everyone else does. I suspect most depressed people would like to not be depressed.

103 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:39:25pm

re: #100 Capitalist Tool

CBS just showed Ryan Lanza being led in handcuffs, by police.

Hmm, if the shooter was 20 and could not legally acquire the guns what odds that they were acquired by the older brother?

104 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:40:15pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.

He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.

It won't work unless it's combined. That is combining mental health screening with gun registration. A great deal of mental illnesses are incurable and can only be managed. That would not stop people with serious mental illnesses from purchasing weapons.

105 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:41:47pm

I'm going to head out now. Going to my parents' house for dinner.

106 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:42:01pm

I want to know how the shooter got the guns. See, I hear a lot of flailing -- a lot of assumptions.

There's the mental health issue for example. To which I have to ask: if the weapons belonged to the shooter's parent what good do mental health restrictions for ownership make?

Quantity? One rifle and two pistols. We don't know anything yet about the weapon owners (whether the shooter or the shooter's parents or someone from whom he stole them). It may be that they could 'qualify' for the weapons as an amateur competition target shooter. (An AR-15 chambered in .223 isn't a hunting rifle. But it's good for competitions.)

You are not going to shut down weapon ownership. Given that fact, the limits you can emplace need to be effective -- which means dealing with family/friend use of the weapons.

107 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:42:45pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

True, it is a rare, rare event.

Katrina was such a grave situation that NATO said this:

NATO was prepared to send troops, but the U.S. government has not issued a request for personnel.

Essentially, NATO said that the US could have declared an Article 5, and NATO would have intervened militarily.

It would have been classified as an attack on the United States. It likely would become a resurrection of the Military Districts from 128-140 years earlier.

108 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:44:28pm

re: #107 ProMayaLiberal

True, it is a rare, rare event.

Katrina was such a grave situation that NATO said this:

Essentially, NATO said that the US could have declared an Article 5, and NATO would have intervened militarily.

It would have been classified as an attack on the United States. It likely would become a resurrection of the Military Districts from 128-140 years earlier.

I can just imagine all them dang drunk wahoo Cajuns converging on such an event.

109 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:45:03pm

we have guns, and we have militias, but as for the well regulated part...well, that smacks of government regulation, doesn't it?

110 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:45:38pm

re: #102 calochortus

But I think depression often is a factor. That might be more easily treated than psychosis. The trouble with providing mental health care (aside from the fact that we don't seem interested in doing so) is that many mentally ill people don't think they have a problem. Everyone else does. I suspect most depressed people would like to not be depressed.

I think social welfare and education are the decisive factors. Brazil has some gun control laws on the books but insane gun violence. Canada has guns everywhere but has fewer violent crimes.

111 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:45:59pm

re: #108 Capitalist Tool

It certainly would have been a stretch on the NATO Charter. And that might have tweaked a few people.

However, it is a legitimate end-run around the Posse Comitatus Act.

112 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:46:52pm
113 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:47:29pm

re: #109 Sol Berdinowitz

we have guns, and we have militias, but as for the well regulated part...well, that smacks of government regulation, doesn't it?

Don't you just love the selective constitutional literalism?

114 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:48:02pm

re: #98 researchok

Exactly.

It is more an issue of the gun culture than anything else.

In Israel and Switzerland for example, guns are found in virtually every home because of mandatory conscription and reserve duty. Nevertheless, we don't have these kinds of crimes there to any great degree.

They do not share our gun culture, the need for cowboy like vigilante justice and they don't tolerate an individual's fantasy as a 'right'.

I think it's even more broad cultural problem than just the gun culture. We are selfish, ego centric, thoughtless people. We spend much of our time and effort feeding our own needs and desires with little thought or care about how it effects others. I really think this kind of thing is the result or a lot of very deep cultural issues.

115 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:48:12pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.

He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.

True, the mass shooters are usually not psychotic, but there are many kinds of mental and emotional disturbance that are factors and that professional care and counseling can address. The shooters are often asocial, angry, and frustrated, and develop dangerous fantasies as a coping mechanism. I have to wonder how many potential massacres are prevented when disturbed, angry people do get help. There is no way to know but it would almost certainly be more with better access. This is a matter of life and death and I think it should be a big part of the debate that will inevitably follow this atrocity.

116 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:02pm

re: #113 Gus

Don't you just love the selective constitutional literalism?

let's get literal: you can own guns if they are muzzle-loading muskets...

117 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:08pm

re: #106 kirkspencer

I want to know how the shooter got the guns. See, I hear a lot of flailing -- a lot of assumptions.

There's the mental health issue for example. To which I have to ask: if the weapons belonged to the shooter's parent what good do mental health restrictions for ownership make?

Quantity? One rifle and two pistols. We don't know anything yet about the weapon owners (whether the shooter or the shooter's parents or someone from whom he stole them). It may be that they could 'qualify' for the weapons as an amateur competition target shooter. (An AR-15 chambered in .223 isn't a hunting rifle. But it's good for competitions.)

You are not going to shut down weapon ownership. Given that fact, the limits you can emplace need to be effective -- which means dealing with family/friend use of the weapons.

It's going to have to be more than registration and ownership. That's just one of the facets to address. And education is going to be key here - mandatory safety training of some sort. (Probably with purchase, but heck, why not work it into the public education in general around 6th or 7th grade?) And part of the education is getting an understanding that the gun is a tool to be respected and understood and thus start to dispel some of the mythology that revolves about it.

Beyond that is addressing what was referred to as "nut control". There needs to be systems in place to identify, *and help*, people with mental issues before they go overboard and decide to take their own lives - and unfortunately sometimes decide to take things out on others beforehand. Preventative actions about this are going to be cheaper in the long run (both culturally and economically) then keeping the same mindset and developing a fortress mentality about all the possible places a nut might decide to go off.

118 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:29pm

The Onion sums it all up as usual:

Fuck Everything, Nation Reports

Following the fatal shooting this morning at a Connecticut elementary school that left at least 27 dead, including 20 small children, sources across the nation shook their heads, stifled a sob in their voices, and reported fuck everything. Just fuck it all to hell.

119 Ian G.  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:30pm

re: #98 researchok

Exactly.

It is more an issue of the gun culture than anything else.

In Israel and Switzerland for example, guns are found in virtually every home because of mandatory conscription and reserve duty. Nevertheless, we don't have these kinds of crimes there to any great degree.

They do not share our gun culture, the need for cowboy like vigilante justice and they don't tolerate an individual's fantasy as a 'right'.

This this this this this. Also, there's the paranoid streak in this country. Ask an Israeli to take a mandatory course in firearm safety and usage, and it's unlikely he'll consider it the first step in the UN coming to round up everyone and put them in detention centers where they'll be forcibly converted into gay atheist Muslims. A good portion of the American populace does believe that.

120 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:56pm

re: #116 Sol Berdinowitz

let's get literal: you can own guns if they are muzzle-loading muskets...

And belong to a well regulated militia.

121 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:50:09pm

re: #104 Gus

A great deal of mental illnesses are incurable and can only be managed. That would not stop people with serious mental illnesses from purchasing weapons

In fact, a very good argument could be made that is true of most mental illnesses.

122 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:50:17pm

re: #116 Sol Berdinowitz

let's get literal: you can own guns if they are muzzle-loading muskets...

And you only have free press if it's a hand screw letter press.

Oh, wait...

123 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:03pm

re: #120 Gus

And belong to a well regulated militia.

You have to eat lots of fiber in order to belong.
/

124 DREd  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:07pm

re: #74 Lidane

How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?

On what planet does that make any sort of sense?

Planet 'Murica. The same planet where lower tax rates = more revenue.

125 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:28pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Affluence stunts shields all kinds of deficiencies.

126 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:32pm

re: #112 Charles Johnson

CBS was reporting that a Bushmaster (.223/5.56 AR15 variant) was found in the killer's auto, not an AK .223 variant, as shown in link.
It's also been reported that he carried into the building and used a Glock 9mm pistol and a Sig 9mm pistol.

127 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:52:46pm

Another bit from The Onion:

Right To Own Handheld Device That Shoots Deadly Metal Pellets At High Speed Worth All Of This

Following today’s mass shooting that left 20 young children dead at a Connecticut elementary school, numerous sources across the country reported that their government-protected right to own a portable device that propels small masses of metal through the air at lethal rates of speed is completely worth any such consequences.

128 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:53:47pm
129 Jaerik  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:53:53pm

The increasing frequency and severity of gun-related massacres in the US is gradually changing the mind of this ordinarily libertarian, pro-gun individual.

I'm starting to think of it in a broader sense of simply... arms races don't work. They've never worked. They didn't even "work" between the US and Soviet Union. Sure we "won," but it collapsed the USSR and drove the US $6 trillion into debt. That isn't a desirable outcome among individuals if you want to create a competitive nation.

I simply don't want to spend a sizable chunk of my time, money, and effort fortifying my property and person from everybody else. And I don't want everyone else to fortify themselves against me. I want us to be engaging in actual, productive crap that enriches the economy and culture and makes us competitive on the world stage.

If you give everyone a handgun, the criminals will use assault rifles. If you give everyone assault rifles, the criminals will go buy RPGs. The arms race will not result in any increased safety for anyone involved. The only ones who will benefit are the arms dealers, laughing all the way to the bank.

130 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:54:03pm

The other is issue is punishment.

Use of weapon (loaded, unloaded or facsimile) ought to mean a mandatory long term sentence.

131 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:54:17pm

re: #117 Feline Fearless Leader

Pretty much every state has a hunter safety course. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply that to guns in general. Many states do.

132 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:54:41pm

re: #130 researchok

The other is issue is punishment.

Use of weapon (loaded, unloaded or facsimile) ought to mean a mandatory long term sentence.

No. Not punishment. Rehabilitation.


For a guy like this, there's no point to punishment. He's already killed. There is nothing that could be done to him that would any way revenge.

It's possible to rehabilitate him, not into a normal person, but someone who can attest to his crime and express remorse and help others avoid it.

That's really unlikely too.

But longer jail sentences are not going to be effective in curtailing gun crimes. At all.

133 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:55:17pm

re: #115 Shiplord Kirel

Not only is it difficult to find (and pay for) appropriate mental health treatment, but many mental illnesses first manifest themselves in young adult-hood. By the time a family realizes there's a serious problem, the kid is 18 and they can't do anything about it. Yeah, they can call the police who will ask if they can show an imminent danger. If not, what can they do? If yes, that's, what? A 72 hour involuntary commitment. So, after that, what?
On the other hand, you can't just lock up everyone who is "different" indefinitely.

134 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:55:40pm

re: #132 Obdicut

Right.

Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.

Some people cannot be fixed.

135 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:56:18pm

re: #134 researchok

Right.

Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.

Um. You said mandatory sentence, though. Don't move the goalposts.

136 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:56:42pm

re: #134 researchok

Right.

Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.

Some people cannot be fixed.

No, but you were talking about penalizing all gun crimes with longer sentences as 'punishment'. Does not work.

137 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:57:29pm

re: #134 researchok

Right.

Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.

Some people cannot be fixed.

And this guy also clearly wasn't stopped by any idea of punishment, right?

138 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:57:46pm

re: #135 erik_t

Yes, I did.

And I stand by it. It won't stop all gun crime, obviously but if it stops some, then it has a value.

139 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:08pm

re: #134 researchok

Right.

Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.

Some people cannot be fixed.

How do we know if we aren't even trying?

140 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:14pm

re: #136 Obdicut

As noted above, I disagree.

141 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:34pm

re: #139 dragonfire1981

We've tried rehabilitation for decades.

142 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:35pm

re: #133 calochortus

On the other hand, you can't just lock up everyone who is "different" indefinitely.

That's what she said (LiLo).

143 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:35pm

re: #127 Lidane

Another bit from The Onion:

Right To Own Handheld Device That Shoots Deadly Metal Pellets At High Speed Worth All Of This

Ogg says we need more flint point spears. Tribe will be safer.

144 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:52pm

re: #131 dragonath

Pretty much every state has a hunter safety course. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply that to guns in general. Many states do.

I referenced that in the earlier threads as a potential starting point. An afternoon course can cover a lot of the basics.

145 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:56pm

re: #138 researchok

Yes, I did.

And I stand by it. It won't stop all gun crime, obviously but if it stops some, then it has a value.

Tying the hands of a judge and removing any sort of intelligent through from the process is a bad idea. It's always a bad idea.

146 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:02pm

re: #140 researchok

As noted above, I disagree.

You think this guy, the guy who just killed 26 people, would have been deterred if he knew there was longer sentences for gun crimes?

Now that's magical thinking.

147 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:09pm

re: #130 researchok

The other is issue is punishment.

Use of weapon (loaded, unloaded or facsimile) ought to mean a mandatory long term sentence.

Mandatory sentences are bad policy, unless you're talking about things like life sentences for capital crimes or the death penalty for treason or whatever. The drug war is a perfect example of how mandatory sentences fuck people over.

148 Kid A  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:27pm

Twenty dead kids, six dead adults, and all over TV and the web, people really want to discuss the Second Amendment right now. I don't think the families of the victims really give a flying fuck what anyone on any network thinks about it, quite frankly.

149 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:57pm

re: #141 researchok

We've tried rehabilitation for decades.

No, we haven't. We make almost no attempt at rehabilitation. Our prisons are mostly prisoner training grounds, where the guards don't provide any safe space for inmates who actually want to improve.

The state of our prisons is shocking and terrible and a disgrace, and the idea that they're too rehabilitative is completely fucking bizarrely wrong.

150 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:00:26pm

re: #137 Obdicut

No- his is an issue of mental health.

But some guy might think twice about using a weapon if there were mandatory sentences.

I believe that will be far more effective than stricter gun laws which criminals will circumvent, regardless.

151 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:00:32pm

re: #141 researchok

We've tried rehabilitation for decades.

Bull poopie we have. I don't see how any reasonable person can consider our justice system, about which the bulk of the country makes rape jokes, rehabilitation-focused.

152 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:03pm

re: #146 Obdicut

No, as I said his was an issue of mental health.

153 Kid A  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:03pm

The parents of those dead kids will never, ever get over this. Many will divorce because they can not deal with something this horrific. God damn that evil bastard. If there is indeed a hell, this fucker deserves a front-row seat.

154 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:05pm

re: #149 Obdicut

No, we haven't. We make almost no attempt at rehabilitation. Our prisons are mostly prisoner training grounds, where the guards don't provide any safe space for inmates who actually want to improve.

The state of our prisons is shocking and terrible and a disgrace, and the idea that they're too rehabilitative is completely fucking bizarrely wrong.

THIS X 10 000.

155 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:09pm

Meh. Americans won't do anything. Just like climate change and a whole slew of other problems. Their answer will be to pray.

156 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:13pm

re: #143 dragonath

Ogg says we need more flint point spears. Tribe will be safer.

Kodos:
They constructed a board with a nail in it, but they won't stop there. They'll construct bigger boards with bigger nails, and then they'll construct a board with a nail in it so large, it will destroy them all...

157 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:14pm

Police still not officially identifying the shooter... all else then is speculation/leaks?

158 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:36pm

Suddenly I wonder what percentage of our prisons are privately owned...

159 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:47pm

re: #148 Turkey Jihad

Twenty dead kids, six dead adults, and all over TV and the web, people really want to discuss the Second Amendment right now. I don't think the families of the victims really give a flying fuck what anyone on any network thinks about it, quite frankly.

Ever think that those of us lucky enough NOT to have lost a loved one today might want to do something ANYTHING to make sure we (or our loved ones) are not the victims next time?

160 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:02:18pm

re: #149 Obdicut

No, we haven't. We make almost no attempt at rehabilitation. Our prisons are mostly prisoner training grounds, where the guards don't provide any safe space for inmates who actually want to improve.

The state of our prisons is shocking and terrible and a disgrace, and the idea that they're too rehabilitative is completely fucking bizarrely wrong.

Q. F. T.

"Corrections" doesn't exist. Throwing prisoners into hell is all that exists and it's no wonder they come out worse.

But like mental health care, real rehab costs too fucking much for those who whine about the too low taxes we pay in America.

161 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:02:19pm

re: #151 erik_t

Bull poopie we have. I don't see how any reasonable person can consider our justice system, about which the bulk of the country makes rape jokes, rehabilitation-focused.

No lie. Every cop show on TV has to have the requisite male rape threat thrown in from time to time.

162 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:02:34pm

re: #151 erik_t

Which may be an idicatin that rehabilitation does not work for some crimes.

Understand that if rehabilitation is to be successful, the culture has to be addressed.

Simply talking about behavior will get you nowhere.

163 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:03:06pm

re: #152 researchok

No, as I said his was an issue of mental health.

We have no idea if this guy was crazy or not. And your suggestion of punishment clearly wouldn't deter him in the least. And your idea that our prisons actually put forth much effort into rehabilitation is nonsense.

164 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:03:08pm

re: #151 erik_t

That does need to be fixed. I would state however that there a group of criminals who cannot be rehabilitated, and must get life in prison.

These groups are non-self-defense Murders, Rape, and Human Trafficking.

165 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:03:16pm

re: #141 researchok

We've tried rehabilitation for decades.

Fascinating factoid. Here in CA we're busy saving the state money by sending prisoners from state prisons to local jails. Aside from the fact that this merely shifts costs and doesn't actually save real money, jails have absolutely no programs to prepare prisoners for anything after they finish their sentences.

166 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:04:02pm

re: #151 erik_t

Bull poopie we have. I don't see how any reasonable person can consider our justice system, about which the bulk of the country makes rape jokes, rehabilitation-focused.

We've GUTTED any attempt at rehabilitations because we were being "too soft" on prisoners.

167 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:04:02pm

re: #149 Obdicut

Your kidding, right?

You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?

168 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:07pm

re: #167 researchok

I would agree with him, what with the Private Prison industry.

The current justice system isn't working.

169 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:13pm

re: #167 researchok

Your kidding, right?

You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?

You can point to major rehabilitation programs now going in in prison systems, then?

170 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:23pm

I think a strong focus on "pre-emptive rehabilitation" i.e. stronger mental health services is an excellent and overdue idea.

171 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:24pm

This is pure evil ... Our state is in shock. Prayers to all families of the victims.

172 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:27pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Right.

He was a healthy, well adjusted individual.
/

I can assure you we wilol learn he has been marginal for a very long time.

173 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:57pm

re: #167 researchok

Your kidding, right?

You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?

Nope. We have pretty much given up on rehabilitation. Both in the way people talk about prison as being a punishment, and in the way that we run our prisons.

We don't actually do what works, because we're way, way, way too invested in the idea of punishing inmates. As a result, the prisons are basically training grounds for new prisoners, mostly run by the gangs inside them.

174 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:58pm

re: #168 ProMayaLiberal

I would agree. However that is a separate issue.

175 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:06:01pm

Any rehabilitation that occurs in the US prison system is incidental to the punishment. No person with a clue could possibly say that the other way around.

176 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:06:30pm
177 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:06:42pm

re: #167 researchok

Your kidding, right?

You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?

I can't speak for Obdi, but that is certainly what I would say. Care to take a peak at recidivism rates?

178 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:07:23pm

re: #163 Obdicut

We have no idea if this guy was crazy or not. And your suggestion of punishment clearly wouldn't deter him in the least. And your idea that our prisons actually put forth much effort into rehabilitation is nonsense.

I would be pretty certain the shooter was unhinged in some way. I can't think of even a cold-blooded logical reason for someone to shoot twenty children under these conditions. He may have wanted to murder his mother, and some collateral damage* occurs, but this is well beyond that.

Arguably, he could have snapped into some sort of killing frenzy while there, but still the initial going there armed to the teeth is implying an unstable mental state at the time.

* - Poor choice of words for twenty plus innocent children and adults being shot. I apologize in advance to any believing I am trivializing the loss of life.

179 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:07:54pm

re: #131 dragonath

Pretty much every state has a hunter safety course. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply that to guns in general. Many states do.

Agreed.
Lifelong hunter, but still took a hunter safety course a couple of years and would highly recommend it to anyone. A similar class for new gun purchasers (perhaps grandfathered for old guys like me) might have some benefit.
One doesn't presently need to demonstrate any sort of competence, experience or attitude to purchase a gun.

180 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:07:55pm

re: #172 researchok

Right.

He was a healthy, well adjusted individual.
/

I can assure you we wilol learn he has been marginal for a very long time.

Hate to break this to you but...
Perfectly sane and mentally healthy people are fully capable of committing evil acts.

181 Ian G.  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:08:27pm

re: #155 Gus

Meh. Americans won't do anything. Just like climate change and a whole slew of other problems. Their answer will be to pray.

You never know. Racial segregation was ingrained in America until one day it wasn't. Persecution of gays was normal until one day it wasn't. I'm not saying that getting Americans to put down the gun, or to deal with climate change will be easy, but there tends to be a tipping point to these kinds of things.

I guess I have to be optimistic about this because I want to have kids some day, and I'd like them to a) not be massacred in school, and b) have a planet suitable for human civilization in their old age.

182 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:08:51pm

re: #176 Gus

[Embedded content]

Welcome to America!
Home of the Mass Shooting!
/Spit

183 jc717  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:21pm

According to a link from Drudge, the older brother says that the shooter had a personality disorder and may have been autistic.

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

184 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:47pm

re: #173 Obdicut

OK.

There have been rehabilitation efforts in prisons for decades, with mixed- mostly failed results.

185 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:50pm

Courtesy of FR:

To: raccoonradio
I bet this kid was on anti depressants, and quit taking them. I’m also wondering if he was a homosexual.
63 posted on Fri Dec 14 13:46:11 2012 by pallis

I give up.

186 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:58pm

re: #183 jc717


Like I care what's on Drudge.

187 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:03pm

re: #117 Feline Fearless Leader

You missed my point. What about family members who might have access? What about mental problems that develop later?

Run you a simple example. Take a neighbor who is a VietNam vet. He's in early stage Alzheimer's. So we've got a twofer, both reliving a really nasty time AND in a disease that during some of its stages includes random acts of violence. Wanna know how happy I am that another neighbor's parents were Vietnamese refugees?

And we cannot legally get his weapons under restriction. There are people who can but they won't, yet.

188 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:06pm

If America were to embrace rehabilitation, and 1% of the people coming out of the system became functional members of society, that's about a billion times better than the status quo.

Isn't safety worth investing in? It's a problem the US always seems to run up against. The same argument could be made about public health and global warming.

189 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:29pm

re: #180 Varek Raith

Yes- but he wasn't one of them.

190 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:35pm

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but watch it. Especially what the forensic psychiatrist has to say at the end. Specifically, stop making this shit news! Stop the 24/7 coverage. Stop opening any video with sirens! Stop showing the killer's face! And stop making anti-heroes of these assholes.

Youtube Video
191 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:37pm

re: #167 researchok

Your kidding, right?

You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?

The recidivism rate in this country would suggest that our attempts at rehabilitation are pathetic at best.

192 JAFO  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:46pm

re: #172 researchok

Right.

He was a healthy, well adjusted individual.
/

I can assure you we wilol learn he has been marginal for a very long time.

Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

from ABC

193 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:59pm

re: #183 jc717

According to a link from Drudge, the older brother says that the shooter had a personality disorder and may have been autistic.

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

That's a shitty fucking excuse.

194 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:13pm

re: #179 Capitalist Tool

Agreed.
Lifelong hunter, but still took a hunter safety course a couple of years and would highly recommend it to anyone. A similar class for new gun purchasers (perhaps grandfathered for old guys like me) might have some benefit.
One doesn't presently need to demonstrate any sort of competence, experience or attitude to purchase a gun.

I certainly have no problem with this. Gun safety is not only common sense, but seems to me entirely constitutional, even for the most strident NRA folks.

195 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:15pm

re: #178 Feline Fearless Leader

I would be pretty certain the shooter was unhinged in some way. I can't think of even a cold-blooded logical reason for someone to shoot twenty children under these conditions. He may have wanted to murder his mother, and some collateral damage* occurs, but this is well beyond that.

I think that there are people who sanely and rationally make choices that are evil. And it doesn't have to be 'cold-blooded'. You can be angry and seeking vengeance and to hurt others without being crazy.

He may very well be mentally ill in some way. But I really hate the idea that everyone who mass-murders or commits enough crimes is necessarily crazy. The whole nation of Rwanda, for example, did not all go fucking crazy. People can make evil choices.

196 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:16pm

re: #189 researchok

Yes- but he wasn't one of them.

And you don't know that.

197 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:25pm

re: #191 Lidane

The recidivism rate in this country would suggest that our attempts at rehabilitation are pathetic at best.

If only there were some European example of a different approach that we might consider...

198 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:51pm

re: #184 researchok

OK.

There have been rehabilitation efforts in prisons for decades, with mixed- mostly failed results.

There have been weak, milksop attempts at rehabilitation that have mostly been crippled by idiots shouting "punishment".

199 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:12:02pm

re: #181 Ian G.

You never know. Racial segregation was ingrained in America until one day it wasn't. Persecution of gays was normal until one day it wasn't. I'm not saying that getting Americans to put down the gun, or to deal with climate change will be easy, but there tends to be a tipping point to these kinds of things.

I guess I have to be optimistic about this because I want to have kids some day, and I'd like them to a) not be massacred in school, and b) have a planet suitable for human civilization in their old age.

I've seen this happen before. There may be a heightened state of awareness but then soon after 24 hours it's business as usual. The gun rights advocates will continue to portray their HOBBY as some kind of physical appendage of theirs.

200 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:12:21pm

When I got my first weapon, I'd never fired a gun before in my life (having spent most of it in Canada).

201 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:12:47pm

re: #191 Lidane

That is true.

Rehabilitation has failed despite decades of trying. There are still legion so fprison psychiatrusts, psychologists, counselors, etc.

As a result, the public has demanded more punitive measures.

202 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:09pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

I'd bet on it.

A big bet.

203 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:14pm

re: #193 dragonath

That's a shitty fucking excuse.

It's no excuse at all. The vast majority of autists and people with aspergers are non-violent.

204 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:25pm

re: #191 Lidane

The recidivism rate in this country would suggest that our attempts at rehabilitation are pathetic at best.

A favourite book of mine is the autobiography of a Mob hitman. In the acknowledgments at the end he thanks the U.S. penal system for turning out more and better criminals than any school system the Mob could set up.

205 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:48pm

re: #198 Obdicut

There have been weak, milksop attempts at rehabilitation that have mostly been crippled by idiots shouting "punishment".

Not to mention the fact that the for-profit prison industry stands to lose MILLIONS should effective rehabilitation be put into place.

206 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:53pm

re: #133 calochortus

Not only is it difficult to find (and pay for) appropriate mental health treatment, but many mental illnesses first manifest themselves in young adult-hood. By the time a family realizes there's a serious problem, the kid is 18 and they can't do anything about it. Yeah, they can call the police who will ask if they can show an imminent danger. If not, what can they do? If yes, that's, what? A 72 hour involuntary commitment. So, after that, what?
On the other hand, you can't just lock up everyone who is "different" indefinitely.

A few points:
Care would not be so difficult to find and pay for if it were better funded. Many families do not intervene because they are unconcerned and dysfunctional, which is part of the shooter's problem in the first place. Even then, we have seen some recent cases in which family intervention probably did prevent a massacre. The concept of someone being enough of an imminent danger to warrant involuntary confinement is probably not applicable in most of these cases, however. It would seem to apply more to manifest psychosis, something we rarely see in the mass shooters. I was thinking instead about the kind of neurosis, anger, and violent fantasy we do see in these people, and the possibility that they would voluntarily seek help if it is made available. That is not as unlikely as it seems. As pointed out, they are not psychotic, they have to realize at some point that their ideations may be dangerous and wrong. Indeed, many shooters seem to go through a period of internal debate and doubt before making the commitment to acting on their violent impulses.

207 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:53pm

re: #201 researchok

That is true.

Rehabilitation has failed despite decades of trying. There are still legion so fprison psychiatrusts, psychologists, counselors, etc.

As a result, the public has demanded more punitive measures.

Saying the US prison system has repudiated the idea of rehabilitation is like saying a human being can't push a car after trying with one finger.

208 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:56pm

re: #202 researchok

I'd bet on it.

A big bet.

Like you do with DDT?
You'll forgive me for taking your posts with a grain of salt, no?
;)

209 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:56pm

re: #203 Obdicut

It's no excuse at all. The vast majority of autists and people with aspergers are non-violent.

Probably misdiagnosed if diagnosed at all.

210 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:14:02pm

If he had a mental disorder, I wonder what if any treatment he'd ever been given for it.

211 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:14:34pm

re: #74 Lidane

How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?

On what planet does that make any sort of sense?

Planet NRA. Wayne LaPierre will be on Fox shortly to explain how that works.

212 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:14:44pm

re: #205 bratwurst

Not to mention the fact that the for-profit prison industry stands to lose MILLIONS should effective rehabilitation be put into place.

DING DING DING!! Follow the money.

There really are some sectors that should NOT BE for profit. Utilities, Health care and Prisons are great examples.

213 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:15:24pm

re: #197 erik_t

Within two years a fifth of all released from prison and among those who began serving a sentence in the community in Norway incurred a new conviction that had to be served in the correctional services. In the other Nordic countries the overall re-offending rate varies from 24 % to 31 %

Link

214 danarchy  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:16:05pm

re: #194 gwangung

I certainly have no problem with this. Gun safety is not only common sense, but seems to me entirely constitutional, even for the most strident NRA folks.

In massachusetts you are already required to complete either a Gun safety course or a Basic hunter education course. Been that way for over a decade and to the best of my knowledge nobody has even bothered to challenge it in court.

215 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:16:09pm

re: #198 Obdicut

There have been weak, milksop attempts at rehabilitation that have mostly been crippled by idiots shouting "punishment".

(caveat: I worked in prisons for a few years. I can speak with some authority about the Colorado and Federal system)

This. Because the first priority, according to the justice system as ordered by congress and the few state legislatures I've read, is to punish the guilty.

Stop and think about it. Not rehabilitate. Not make everyone safer over the long run. Punish the guilty.

Pell grants for inmates? Remember those and the outrages they created? Never mind that the recidivism rates showed they were extremely effective, they got cut and cut and cut. And that's just one example.

We do not do rehabilitation. We do imprisonment - punishment. In the gaps we do some rehab.

216 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:16:18pm

re: #203 Obdicut

In fact, they are less likely to be a danger to anyone but themselves.

217 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:17:16pm

re: #207 erik_t

But that is not the case- huge efforts were put into rehabilitation efforts

218 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:17:44pm

The entire Drug War is based on tough punishment.
How'd that work out?
Oh, yeah, it didn't at all.
In fact, I'd wager it made things worse.

219 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:18:11pm

Pure 100% wingnut-grade fingers-in-ears magical thinking. I'm done with this one.

220 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:18:37pm

re: #212 dragonfire1981

DING DING DING!! Follow the money.

There really are some sectors that should NOT BE for profit. Utilities, Health care and Prisons are great examples.

It's not just the private prison complex, though. It is also the government prison complex. In California-- and I am a totally pro union guy in general-- the prison guards and other corrections unions have stood in the way of a fuckload of progress. They have fought for the three strikes law, against decriminalizing marijuana, and against rehabilitation and drug-diversion programs.

We cannot blame this entirely on the profit motive. It is also that prosecutors are basically immune to lawsuits or punishment for even the mostly obviously out of control investigations, it's that we have police labs corrupting evidence all over the nation, and that being a prosecutor is a stepping-stone to other political positions.

Nobody wants to be the guy who is vulnerable to the idiots calling for more punishment and saying that rehabilitation can't work. It's incredibly difficult to pull that one off politically. Obama hasn't even gotten near to touching it, you'll notice, despite his confronting other high-importance items.

221 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:18:42pm

re: #209 Gus

No kidding.

The DSM has revised the Autism Spectrum Disorder.

Again.

222 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:20:00pm

re: #218 Varek Raith

The entire Drug War is based on tough punishment.
How'd that work out?
Oh, yeah, it didn't at all.
In fact, I'd wager it made things worse.

A lot of people in Mexico hold and express that sentiment.

223 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:20:02pm

Now he's done it!

224 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:20:21pm

re: #213 researchok

Link

In contrast to Norway's 24-31%:

67.5% of prisoners released in 1994 were rearrested within 3 years, an increase over the 62.5% found for those released in 1983 -- [Link: bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...]

So we who don't do rehab have twice the recidivism rate.

225 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:07pm

re: #223 Gus

Now he's done it!

[Embedded content]

Cue calls to deport him back to England...

226 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:08pm

re: #201 researchok

Here's the problem with your theory-- we've never really tried to rehabilitate anyone. That's why our recidivism rate is so high.

When prisons exist for profit and strictly as a way for people to feel like they're "tough on crime", rehabilitation is the last thing that is ever budgeted for or even considered.

227 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:08pm
228 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:20pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel

I don't really disagree with anything you've said-my point was that we don't as a society invest in this sort of healthcare. I've known 2 families with mentally ill young adults. It is very difficult for them to deal with their situations because we do lack resources for them to turn to. The sons don't want medical help, and in one case the young man has been in and out of jail for petty offenses, the family lives in a rural area and is ashamed of having a mentally ill son. It is unlikely that either of these young men will turn violent, but it is not impossible. We need to move into the modern world on the mental health front.

229 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:22:59pm

re: #217 researchok

But that is not the case- huge efforts were put into rehabilitation efforts

huge efforts ≠ intelligent or effective efforts

230 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:16pm

re: #224 kirkspencer

And the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours.

231 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:25pm

Breitbrat says:

It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?

This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.

232 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:44pm

re: #229 bratwurst

On that I absolutely agree

233 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:45pm

re: #225 dragonfire1981

Cue calls to deport him back to England...

I actually agree with his tweet there, but would still strongly support his deportation anyway! /

234 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:24:34pm

re: #227 Gus

I don't know how I feel about the references or the 6-8 week vetting process, but yeah. I'm all for mandatory training and safety classes.

If we have to take classes to learn the rules and spend documented time as student drivers before we're allowed to get a driver's license, why not do the same for guns?

235 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:25:01pm

re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz

I have four kids between 6 - 14 years old. But we are here in godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe, so I am not as scared for their safety as I would be if we were living in God's own Country, the Land of Bryan Fischer and the Covenant with The Lord.

My godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western European wife wanted to raise our kids there and I was like no, we should enroll them in American public schools like I went to.

I just lost that argument.

236 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:26:25pm

re: #231 Charles Johnson

Breitbrat says:

[Embedded content]

It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?

This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.

I didn't realize Bryan Fucking Fischer was part of the left, now.

237 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:26:36pm
238 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:02pm

Gulp.

Dawn Hochsprung
@DHochsprung
Principal, Sandy Hook School
Newtown, CT

239 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:16pm

re: #230 researchok

And the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours.

Link?

240 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:31pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

To put it simply, fuck Huck. =P

241 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:54pm

re: #222 Capitalist Tool

A lot of people in Mexico hold and express that sentiment.

The problem in Mexico is almost complete impunity, not tough punishment. Something like 2% of crimes are prosecuted.

242 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:29:34pm

re: #217 researchok

But that is not the case- huge efforts were put into rehabilitation efforts

No.

ugh, this really needs a page and I don't have time.

A lot of money went into rehab after the big prison riots of the 1960s. And things did get better - we did see improved recidivism rates. (We also saw improvements in prison violence rates, but that's not the current subject.) However, that rehab was a first splurge. It was a trial that didn't get full expansion. It also did not grow at the same rates as prison populations grew. Starting in the 1970s and the "tough on crime/liberals coddling prisoners" political games the moneys put into rehab actually declined.

The worst, as already noted, was that there were various programs run as trials that showed great returns. But because they put rehab above imprisonment (and they moved where money went, and they weren't 'tough on crime') they didn't get expanded.

They were huge efforts when considered in isolation. When considered next to what was needed they were a pittance -- and they were not continued.

243 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:30:00pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

We can call this the Fischer meme. These people seem to have no idea how insanely callous they sound. They are demented, and we are seeing their depraved superstition carried to its logical conclusion. May they rot in hell.

244 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:30:37pm
245 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:17pm

re: #243 Shiplord Kirel

May they rot in hell.

Events like this make me wish there was such a place.

246 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:24pm

re: #244 Gus

Oh damn. That did it. Goddamn. Those poor kids.

247 Ian G.  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:30pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I really have no patience for this shit right now. It reeks of smug "told-ya-so" glee, that dead 6-year-olds is the logical price to pay for not opening the day with the worship of Allah Buddha Krishna Baal Thor Zeus Osiris Pachamama God.

248 erik_t  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:39pm

re: #244 Gus

Please at least make this a link. I don't want to see this.

249 danarchy  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:32:07pm

re: #235 Destro

My godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western European wife wanted to raise our kids there and I was like no, we should enroll them in American public schools like I went to.

I just lost that argument.

As horrific and gut wrenching as this is, there are over 50 million children in american schools. They still tend to be pretty safe places over all.

250 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:32:22pm

re: #231 Charles Johnson

Breitbrat says:

[Embedded content]

It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?

This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.

John, kindly go fornicate with your self.

251 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:33:19pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

Erick Erickson's on the same page as Huckabee.

252 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:34:12pm
253 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:34:32pm

Be nice to come together as a nation and

not waiting for anybody to say anything before he pushes away the feelings of guilt

254 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:34:43pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.

Agreed. Not to mention that these tragedies are happening at such a rate that if we can't talk about addressing gun/gun nut culture in the US shortly after a mass shooting, there will never be an opportunity to do so.

255 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:35:13pm

re: #252 Lidane

Freaks.

256 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:35:41pm
257 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:36:03pm

re: #239 bratwurst

I can say right now that is BS.

258 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:36:53pm

Man, I feel sick. Killin' fckin' kids? Seriously?

re: #227 Gus

[Embedded content]

Sounds lovely. Who does the training? Who does the vetting? A national board that certifies you as Not Crazy? By what criteria? What happens when two "references" have nothing to say but the third thinks you're nuts? What is an "assault weapon" really? (We've been down that road with "evil features" on semi-autos and it doesn't change anything, and don't we really mean firepower limits, i.e. magazine restrictions, anyway?)

I'm not trying to be combative - personally at this point I'm ready to support limits on ownership of these kinds of things - but do I really trust Americans as a whole (or rather, their Representatives in Congress) to get all that right?

My thought was that the NICS ought to flag you if you've ever had a mental health referral from any educational institution; that would have put a stop to at least a couple of the college shooters.

259 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:11pm
260 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:14pm

re: #239 bratwurst

I'll have to find that.

I t was some paper that also discussed how recidivism was calculated.

I dio recall there was some contention in the methodology used, in part for political reasons (lower is better, etc)

261 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:39pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

That didn't take long at all.

Where was this god when all this mayhem was being planned?

262 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:38:12pm

You shouldn't run away from reality. It's supposed to hurt. It's interesting that Americans don't want to see the end result of violence or the victims yet are willing to pay to see people be slaughtered on the big screen.

263 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:38:33pm
264 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:13pm

re: #252 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Because really, what I want is a teacher who, instead of trying to get her students out of the room, decides to hunker down and hope that her nerves are steely enough to survive a shoot out with the bad guys.

265 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:35pm

re: #242 kirkspencer

Yes, what you say is true but it also highlights the other factors that influence prison sentences, replenishment and rehabilitation efforts.

The whole conversation cannot be reduced to singular numbers because there are so many factors which influence recidivism, not thge least of which are political factors.

266 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:49pm

re: #241 wrenchwench

The problem in Mexico is almost complete impunity, not tough punishment. Something like 2% of crimes are prosecuted.

I've watched a couple of films this past year where a number of Mexicans were saying that the reason the cartels are killing so many people is because Vicente Fox has been trying so hard to catch them.
You see, it's the govt's fault.

267 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:52pm

re: #261 Pawn of the Oppressor

Where was this god when all this mayhem was being planned?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

--Epicurius

268 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:53pm

re: #260 researchok

I'll have to find that.

Please do. Once I see it, I will offer a full apology for accusing you of pulling it out of your rectum as I am doing right now.

269 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:24pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Fuck Mike Huckabee.

270 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:34pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Fuck Huck.

271 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:37pm

re: #268 bratwurst

Hmmm.

Have you known me to do that?

272 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:57pm

re: #245 Skip Intro

Events like this make me wish there was such a place.

For the record I don't really believe there is such a place (I'm a Unitarian), though Fischer and his ilk would certainly belong there if there were. I really don't think he and the other fundy quacks believe it either. They wouldn't risk the judgement that is sure to come if they did. It is simply a way to terrorize the gullible into parting with their money and conforming to the behaviors and attitudes the glib charlatans set for them.

273 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:03pm

re: #266 Capitalist Tool

I've watched a couple of films this past year where a number of Mexicans were saying that the reason the cartels are killing so many people is because Vicente Fox has been trying so hard to catch them.
You see, it's the govt's fault.

Fox was the president 6 years ago. Before Calderon launched the war on the cartels.

274 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:23pm
275 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:32pm

re: #231 Charles Johnson

Breitbrat says:

[Embedded content]

It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?

This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.

The wingnuts have a very strange idea of "mourning" apparently...

The fact that this happen to ban guns is the lest of our worries. THEY ARE KILLING OUR KIDS in order to push their NWO. That should be enough for us to march.

Was this event making up for the failed massacre at the Oregon mall?

Failed as in not enough people died to make a difference. They are coming for your guns! These cowards will target children as a last resort... they are desperate to get your guns.

It's for when the money system collapses... they don't want starving and pissed off American's running around with guns.

They are coming soon...

Obama crying. Stopped talking for about 10 seconds as he wipes away tears.

But his eyes are wet! Not at all. His eyes aren't red or wet.

He just wiped his other eye. There was nothing there!
He is FOS!!!! Fake crier. Sick!!!!!
He's fucking ACTING. What an asshole!!!

At this point I'm convinced he's inhuman.
He wiped away at least 8 FAKE, non-existent tears from both eyes. I saw it myself, close-up. Not a single drop of moisture on his eyes. They'll have to video-edit those in later.

He faked that beautifully. Trust me, he could care less.

276 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:47pm

re: #249 danarchy

As horrific and gut wrenching as this is, there are over 50 million children in american schools. They still tend to be pretty safe places over all.

We have what, 350 million people in the U.S.? It's probably a miracle of statistics that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. And I can't help but think of the terrible stuff that happens to kids elsewhere (child soldiers come to mind).

These days I'd gladly pay more taxes to have our streets guarded Israeli-style. I would happily exchange some of my liberty for a little safety if it meant not having to read about kids being murdered at school.

277 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:47pm

re: #256 Gus

[Embedded content]

Related commentary, from the time of the VT shootings:

If you want to really understand why he did it that way, you have to find out what article of media he was imitating. Take the photos, the manifesto, and google it until you find the movie the handguns came from; the book (or comic book) the manifesto came from. He didn't come up with this stuff on his own, he is imitating something. For Klebold and Harris it was the Matrix and Doom. What movie is he imitating? Find it.

Because it isn't about mental illness, or genetics. It's about identity, it's always about identity, and sometimes the identity you choose doesn't work out that well. So, emergently, you grab an identity which has appeared to work-- you imitate a movie, a game, a comic.

I'm not saying movies made him do it; I'm saying he was looking for an excuse to do it, and he went through the usual catalog: movies, comics, games. Come hell or high water, he was going to kill someone. But in terms of prediction, the operative question is, if this guy goes homicidal, how will he do it? He didn't strap explosives to his chest, not because it wasn't available, but because it didn't match the identity he wanted to have-- that he got from a TV show or movie.

Ismael Ax, handgun to the head, hammer cocked like a bat to the right, knife to the neck-- all those stills from his video clips you see on CNN aren't random, they're a specific imitation of something else. Find the thing he was imitating, and you have found him.

Because he didn't exist, that's the problem. He picked an identity, and no one liked it, it backfired- no chicks-- so he moved to plan B: pick an identity that absolves him of the guilt of shooting 30 people.

278 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:42:34pm

re: #271 researchok

Hmmm.

Have you known me to do that?

I saw you pull facts from your anal cavity on the topic of DDT now that you mention it, yes.

279 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:42:48pm

re: #249 danarchy

As horrific and gut wrenching as this is, there are over 50 million children in american schools. They still tend to be pretty safe places over all.

I grew up in a tough ghetto school in NYC (Queensbridge projects). I was able to graduate and go to a higher university and learn a few languages and now work all over the world. I am in NYC for 3 to 6 months at a time. It seems my children will not follow me here when they enroll in schools as I wanted them too.

I have become a stranger to the land that bred me and incidents like today happen and I get alienated even more.

With that said, and all my upfront seemingly apparent hostility to the USA, this is the land that fed me, educated me and allowed me to go to college all via the public's taxes supporting me.

I think I am crying right now. I will stop. I am fucked up right now beyond belief. I have relatives in that area of the shootings. I don't understand any of this any more.......

280 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:42:48pm

re: #258 Pawn of the Oppressor

It's those evil bayonet lugs and flash/recoil suppressors... get rid of those and that will put an end to it, did the first time around- or maybe I'm remembering that wrong, too.

281 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:43:06pm

Huckabee and Fischer long for the good ole days when God was in the schools and you could kill minorities, homosexuals, and other undesirables and it wasn't a big deal.

282 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:43:15pm

re: #261 Pawn of the Oppressor

That didn't take long at all.

Where was this god when all this mayhem was being planned?

How anyone can seriously believe that any sort of god exists after this carnage really, really needs to get their reality detector fixed. ASAP.

283 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:43:38pm

re: #273 wrenchwench

right-
Calderon.

284 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:44:37pm

re: #268 bratwurst

One more thing recidivism rates are also influencved by the imprisonment of mentally ill persons.

There is a higher rate of incarceration for mentally ill patients here thna in most other places. Given they are more likely to re-offend the recidivism rates are impacted accordingly.

285 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:44:51pm

re: #271 researchok

Hmmm.

Have you known me to do that?

You have a record of using poor sources.

286 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:45:40pm

re: #284 researchok

One more thing recidivism rates are also influencved by the imprisonment of mentally ill persons.

There is a higher rate of incarceration for mentally ill patients here thna in most other places. Given they are more likely to re-offend the recidivism rates are impacted accordingly.

Let me know when you can back up your previous claim and I will apologize. Thanks.

287 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:09pm

re: #278 bratwurst

Really?

Be specific. I cited references from others but not my own.

So let's be honest, shall we- since you are talking about pulling shit out of asses. As you just did,

288 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:07pm

re: #287 researchok

Really?

Be specific. I cited references from others but not my own.

So let's be honest, shall we- since you are talking about pulling shit out of asses. As you just did,

You cited discredited sources. Thanks again for getting back to me when you can back up what you claim in this thread.

289 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:12pm

re: #285 wrenchwench

That's not the same thing as saying I fabricated something.

And if they were questionable sources it was not done intentionally.

290 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:51pm

re: #287 researchok

Really?

Be specific. I cited references from others but not my own.

So let's be honest, shall we- since you are talking about pulling shit out of asses. As you just did,

You once cited Harvard and it turned out to be Readers' Digest. That was on DDT.

291 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:48:46pm

re: #288 bratwurst

Bullshit

You accused me of making stuff up.

I saw you pull facts from your anal cavity on the topic of DDT now that you mention it, yes.

I did not,

So far, that's been you.

292 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:49:40pm

Today's summary:

Image: 598364_10151177738786275_1612165701_n.jpg

293 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:00pm

re: #290 wrenchwench

Yes, I cited a Harvard site that referenced the article.

And immediately corrected the source when it was brought to my attention.

294 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:23pm

re: #291 researchok

Bullshit

You accused me of making stuff up.

I did not,

So far, that's been you.

Ok, please accept my apologies. You cited poor sources and refused to back down when the low quality of those sources was pointed out to you.

And again: I will offer a full apology once you prove what you claimed in this thread. Any time now.

295 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:34pm

re: #289 researchok

That's not the same thing as saying I fabricated something.

And if they were questionable sources it was not done intentionally.

I don't think you are intentionally using poor sources or citing bad info, but I do think you have read and believed a lot of stuff in the past that deserves at least reconsideration on your part, if not tossing it altogether. That's why people want to see your sources.

Better to find the info you're talking about now than argue over intentions.

296 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:36pm

re: #265 researchok

Yes, what you say is true but it also highlights the other factors that influence prison sentences, replenishment and rehabilitation efforts.

The whole conversation cannot be reduced to singular numbers because there are so many factors which influence recidivism, not thge least of which are political factors.

No. You do not get to move the goal post. We were not talking of recidivism.

We were talking about rehab, which does affect recidivism, and how it's not being done to any significant extent.

297 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:52:13pm

re: #294 bratwurst

Ok, please accept my apologies. You cited poor sources and refused to back down when the low quality of those sources was pointed out to you.

And again: I will offer a full apology once you prove what you claimed in this thread. Any time now.

I find he'll back down when appropriate. But we can't know without a source for a claim whether it's appropriate now.

298 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:53:35pm

re: #60 Charles Johnson

It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.

Maybe I can help. Page where gun control is now. Advocates exxagerate and claim there are 20,000 gun laws. Brookings found 300 at the state level. I'd like to help sort hype from reality. Repeatedly we hear calls for gun laws that are already on the books.

Sometimes it's about enforcing laws not new ones. New laws can thin enforcement resources. Sometimes it is better to enforce what you have. Like straw man buys. One lesson from F&F was how lax that was in some places. This conviction and maximum sentence is a rare result. It should not be.

The recent SCOTUS decisions ended any legal dependence on a militia for an individual to have the right to bear arms at least at home. It also strongly confirmed the ability of legislatures to well regulate the newly confirmed individual right.

There was work to do before the recent shootings. Now, it's urgent.

299 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:18pm

re: #294 bratwurst

I appreciate that.

I will try to find the source (it's been a while since ai glossed over the article). They cite the problems with apples to apples on recidivism rates but the gist was when the numbers were om balance equal, the numbers were the same.

The Scandinavian countries do have a lower rate that may or may may not be attributable to far lesser incarceration for drug offenses and better mental health access for offenders who needed treatment.

300 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:46pm

re: #297 wrenchwench

I find he'll back down when appropriate. But we can't know without a source for a claim whether it's appropriate now.

Fair enough. Again, I was out of line in suggesting he made something up then. This was not the case.

As soon as he is ready to back up his claim in this thread, I am ready willing and able to issue another apology.

301 gwangung  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:55pm

re: #169 gwangung

You can point to major rehabilitation programs now going in in prison systems, then?

Ahem.

302 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:56:27pm

re: #299 researchok

I appreciate that.

I will try to find the source (it's been a while since ai glossed over the article). They cite the problems with apples to apples on recidivism rates but the gist was when the numbers were om balance equal, the numbers were the same.

The Scandinavian countries do have a lower rate that may or may may not be attributable to far lesser incarceration for drug offenses and better mental health access for offenders who needed treatment.

It is nothing personal, I just don't believe what you said...and I am not impressed by the attempts you are making at moving the goalpost here ahead of citing your source.

And last I checked, Scandinavia is very much part of western Europe.

303 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:57:32pm

re: #302 bratwurst

It's Northern Europe, which is generally lumped in with Western Europe.

304 Major Tom  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:57:42pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.

He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.

I heard that report... and was confused to hear another NPR story an hour later say the exact opposite in an interview with a guy from Mother Jones. First report said mass shootings not increasing, psychosis not to blame... Mother Jones said 61 shootings in 30 years- 7 this year alone, 1 in 5 in schools, almost always a long depressed individual (whatever that means) , many times, psychosis is a factor.... I was scratching my head on who was telling the truth, but my gut says Mother knows best.

305 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:58:09pm

re: #297 wrenchwench

WW, I have seen the number.

As I noted the issue of recidivism is a hot topic because of how it is calculated- each jurisdiction does so differently and mental health facilities and drug laws play a huge role.

And then there is the politics.

And yes, as you note if I am wrong I will concede the point or offer up a correction when necessary. I have never done otherwise.

I have no issue doing that- why would I?

306 boredtechindenver  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:48pm

re: #304 Major Tom

Mother Jones said 61 shootings in 30 years- 7 this year alone, 1 in 5 in schools, almost always a long depressed individual (whatever that means) , many times, psychosis is a factor.... I was scratching my head on who was telling the truth, but my gut says Mother knows best.

Here is the MJ report.

307 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:00:22pm

re: #302 bratwurst

Yes, the Scandinavian rates are different, or anomalous if you will.

And I was not impressed with your characterization of me.

Nothing personal.

308 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:05pm

re: #307 researchok

Good way to defeat that characterization would be to, you know, produce the source.

309 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:12pm

re: #305 researchok

WW, I have seen the number.

As I noted the issue of recidivism is a hot topic because of how it is calculated- each jurisdiction does so differently and mental health facilities and drug laws play a huge role.

And then there is the politics.

And yes, as you note if I am wrong I will concede the point or offer up a correction when necessary. I have never done otherwise.

I have no issue doing that- why would I?

Because of the shift in your politics, which I have great respect for, I sometimes feel the need to question something you 'know', because before your political shift, you believed things that you don't now. It takes a lot of sorting through old knowledge, tossing some and keeping the rest. It's a lot of work, and I respect your effort. Still, I want to see the source of your knowledge, because I don't know whether the 'new you' has vetted it yet.

310 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:13pm

re: #307 researchok

Yes, the Scandinavian rates are different, or anomalous if you will.

And I was not impressed with your characterization of me.

Nothing personal.

The good news is that the sooner you identify the source for your claim that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours", the sooner you prove how wrong my characterization of you was.

311 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:05:35pm

re: #310 bratwurst

As I said, I will post it when dig it up.

If not tonight, by tomorrow. I will definitely call your attention to it when I post it.

312 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:06:53pm

re: #310 bratwurst

And your characterization of me pretty much defined who was talking out of their ass.

313 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:08:11pm

re: #312 researchok

And your characterization of me pretty much defined who was talking out of their ass.

I am awaiting the support for your claim. And should you not bring it to my attention by tomorrow, I shall be sure to bring the lack of said support to your attention.

314 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:14:40pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

You raise an interesting point. As my politics have shifted so have a lot of ideas I once held sacred. Lots of reevaluation there.

While my politics are changing my work as a behaviorist and familiarity with the field have remained pretty stable with fewer changes (I still believe punishment needs to be an integral part of justice in addition to rehabilitation, for example).

Crimne, punishment and rehabilitation do have political components but there are still real mental health issues which must be dealt with

Truth be told, it is a minefield.

Read up on the latest DSM kerfuffle and you'll get a taste.

315 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:15:40pm

re: #313 bratwurst

Fair enough.

But your characterization of me remains in error.

316 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:17:04pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.

He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.

Lots of us have guns and never fire in anger or hate. Lots of us have very violent video games or engage in violent sports like kickboxing. Lots of us have guns. Some of us catch a spouse cheating, even red handed.
99.9% of us never ever use a weapon for violence.

If not psychosis then what? Something separates a killer from a person like you or me. It's worth running down. For one thing, is our nation more prone to non gun violence? I think so, but I have no paper or proof.

317 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:17:36pm

re: #315 researchok

Fair enough.

Image: 1003689622-1.jpg

318 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:19:29pm

re: #317 bratwurst

re: #317 bratwurst

I already have.

I saw you pull facts from your anal cavity on the topic of DDT now that you mention it, yes.

Never happened, remember?

319 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:21:30pm

re: #318 researchok

You did, indeed, get many things about DDT wrong, and continued to do so despite many, many, many people giving you the right info. It was deeply frustrating. You couldn't comprehend that DDT had never been banned for vector control, only for agricultural use. You couldn't comprehend that using DDT more for agricultural use would very, very quickly cause mass adaptation and ruin its use as vector control. I hope that since then you have learned these very basic facts.

320 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:21:52pm

re: #318 researchok

re: #317 bratwurst

I already have.

Never happened, remember?

And I apologized. Now prove your claim that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours". My cursory research shows that the US has a rate of 67.5% and Sweden (very much part of western Europe in my view) is at 35%...so you are starting in quite a hole.

321 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:23:29pm

re: #320 bratwurst

I shall find it and post it.

322 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:31pm

And again, I am sorry. For all I know, this may well be the first time in your life you have pulled a "fact" out of your ass.

323 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:47pm

re: #319 Obdicut

Obdi, do you really want to discuss psychology, anthropology or mental health with me?

324 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:25:49pm

re: #323 researchok

Obdi, do you really want to discuss psychology, anthropology or mental health with me?

Sure. Not clue what that has to do with the problems you had understanding the DDT stuff, though.

325 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:26:36pm

re: #324 Obdicut

Sure. Not clue what that has to do with the problems you had understanding the DDT stuff, though.

Or proving his assertion that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours" for that matter!

326 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:28pm

re: #324 Obdicut

The issue under current discussion is not DDT

Further, when I was err I conceded that.

Not everyone does the same.

327 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:55pm

re: #325 bratwurst

Or proving his assertion that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours" for that matter!

The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.

Western Europe simply doesn't have the same prison population as us, by a long shot, so it's not nearly as important an issue for them.

328 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:28:47pm

re: #326 researchok

The issue under current discussion is not DDT

Further, when I was err I conceded that.

Not everyone does the same.

No, you didn't. You not only argued about it for an entire thread, then when it came up again you started all over again.

It's nice for you to admit now that you were in error about DDT, though. Thank you for that.

329 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:24pm

re: #326 researchok

The issue under current discussion is not DDT

Further, when I was err I conceded that.

Not everyone does the same.

How many times shall I apologize?

330 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:30:02pm

re: #327 Obdicut

The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.

That is a very valid point that has long been discussed.

The discussion is and always has been a minefield.

331 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:31:09pm

re: #330 researchok

The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.

That is a very valid point that has long been discussed.

The discussion is and always has been a minefield.

Yet you did state that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours". If you would like to admit you misspoke, you can save yourself some work tonight or tomorrow.

332 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:32:28pm

re: #329 bratwurst

No need to apologize.

All I want is a civil conversation.

I presume that is your intent as well. All the rest is chaff

333 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:34:22pm

re: #332 researchok

No need to apologize.

All I want is a civil conversation.

I presume that is your intent as well. All the rest is chaff

Agreed.

I confess I am in a sour mood today (for reasons obvious and less obvious). I have apologized to you several times already. If you will confess that you misspoke in asserting that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours", I will be happy to let it go.

334 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:34:35pm

re: #330 researchok

The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.

That is a very valid point that has long been discussed.

The discussion is and always has been a minefield.

No, it's not. I have no idea why you're calling it a minefield. It's just not properly done that often because there's not a lot of funding for studying recidivism, partially because of idiots who focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

335 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:10pm

re: #331 bratwurst

Yes, I said that.

I'll find the source material. Crime isn't really my area but you do run into al kinds of stuff (my work centers around predictive behavior, hence the second cousin to recidivism).

336 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:38:04pm

re: #334 Obdicut

Actually, it is a minefield because there are no standardized methodology to calculate recidivism.

I touch on that in 305

337 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:42:48pm

re: #336 researchok

Actually, it is a minefield because there are no standardized methodology to calculate recidivism.

I touch on that in 305

If that's your idea of a minefield, I dunno what to say. Yeah, it's challenging. Minefields aren't challenging. They're deadly and blow up in your face. The idiom means that if you engage in something, it might ruin you or be a disaster. Working on methodologies for recidivism is not a minefield.

338 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:45:26pm

re: #333 bratwurst

The days events put everybody in a sour mood. You aren't alone.

I called my daughter a few times today- I was (and still am- that upset).

Now, insofar as my remarks re recidivism, I do recall reading that somewhere. I assure you if I am in err, I will say so.

The recidivism rates also relate to culture. I have big respect for the guys in my line who work in criminal justice because in addition to the mental health issues, they have to deal with ever changing cultural goal line.

Nowadays, those lines can be influenced by events halfway around the world (terror, violence as a form of political expression, etc).

And there are the mental health issuers.

Factor in the politics and productive conversation becomes very difficult.

Our world.

339 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:46:11pm

re: #337 Obdicut

When politics are involved, it is a minefield.

340 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:54:13pm

My personal point of view is that the amorphous terms "about the same" (within 2%? 5%? 20%?) and "western Europe" (if this term includes Scandinavia...which I insist it does...you have virtually no chance) mean there is little hope of you backing up what you said in a mutually satisfactory way.

I was a big enough man to admit that I misspoke. You did not, in fact, pull facts out of your ass regarding DDT. I and others found your support for your position to be dubious, but that is not the same as inventing facts.

Can you, in turn, be a big enough man to admit that, regardless of what you may or may not have read in the past, you cannot support your assertion that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours"?

341 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:56:02pm

re: #339 researchok

When politics are involved, it is a minefield.

That's nice. Turns out everything's a minefield.

Sheesh.

342 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:59:41pm

re: #340 bratwurst

There is merit to your argument.

I am working off a recollection of a paper and in fact do acknowledge the Scandinavian rate as published.

I suppose the best I can do at this point is find the numbers and let them speak for themselves.

What I do recall reading though is the actual difference in rates were not as great as reported in an apple to apple comparison.

I'll be better able to opine once seeing the data, though I suspect even interpreting the data is contentious.

343 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:00:10pm

re: #341 Obdicut

Yeah, what do the guys who deal with this know?

Let me clarify- what is a minefield in academia or clinical work is not always regarded as such by non practioners or laymen.

344 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:01:15pm

re: #342 researchok

So is that a yes or a no?

345 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:04:31pm

re: #344 bratwurst

It is a yes, but (somewhat) qualified.

So yes, I am in err.

Now though, my interest is piqued- I really want to see what the data I saw represents.

346 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:11:37pm

re: #345 researchok

It is a yes, but (somewhat) qualified.

So yes, I am in err.

Now though, my interest is piqued- I really want to see what the data I saw represents.

You make it like pulling teeth!

"The actual difference in rates were not as great as reported in an apple to apple comparison" is a FAR cry from ""the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours". Your recollection seems to have changed since we began discussing this.

Having said that, my interest in piqued also. I would be most interested in seeing the source in question here. Perhaps you can make a page of it.

I can tell you that I have indeed seen some recent eye-poppingly high stats from Britain in researching this as we have had this discussion. Again though, (a) the methodologies, etc. make these stats tricky to compare , and (b) the few numbers I have turned up from elsewhere in western Europe are going to keep the average numbers (which is what we are discussing here) far below those in the US.

347 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:16:51pm

re: #346 bratwurst

LOL

Cut me some slack here- I am recalling a document I haven't seen in a couple of years!

I do not mean to be obstinate or obtuse- I just don't have the data I am attempting to recall at my fingertips.

That said, your remarks did hit on a point- there is clearly a difference in Euro recidivism, if predicated only on the Scandinavian numbers.

My remarks characterizing the equating of recidivism rates were poorly chosen. Of that I am guilty.

If the numbers really are that far off, you'll get a mea culpa in all caps.

348 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:20:13pm

re: #346 bratwurst

You are right to note this entire discussion would make for a great page.

When the article and numbers are digested maybe we can co author something.

Truth is, I love this stuff. The variables, permutations and possibilities of human behavior are fascinating (which I why I got into the predictive end).

349 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:23:39pm

It has been clear that you did not have the relevant data at hand for about 90 minutes now, believe me!

And if you can produce numbers that show recidivism rates in western Europe are within 10% or so of those in the US, you will absolutely get a sincere snarkless apology as well.

I do suspect that we can agree that regardless of the comparison to recidivism elsewhere, the corrections system in this country is in serious need of reform.

350 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:36:41pm

No argument- corrections here is a disaster.

The why is the real debate.

From where I sit, there are too many non violent drug related offenders who have no business being locked up, another huge population of offenders who would be better served in mental health facilities, etc.

Even if you increase the population of mental health professionals in prisons they are still in prison.

Prisons are a very different place than mental health facilities (even secure facilities). They are not conducive to rehabilitation, period. Any prison psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you that. Yes, there is a need for mental health facilities in prisons but there are an enormous number of people who do not belong in prison. They are medicated to the point if being docile but that is stopgap at best.

Medication deals with symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Medication is also cheaper than therapy and prison is cheaper than mental health facilities.

Bratwurst, if people understood the magnitude of problem, they would be outraged.

Yes we need rehabilitation and yes we need punishment (again, a part of the human cultural/societal compact).

We're failing at both.

351 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:43:20pm

re: #350 researchok

We're doing a great job of delivering far more punishment than most crimes deserve, actually.

352 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:47:19pm

re: #351 Obdicut

We're doing a great job of delivering far more punishment than most crimes deserve, actually.

Extreme punishments meted out on a rather arbitrary and capricious basis are a helpful distraction from the fact that many of the really big crimes aren't even illegal, or if they are illegal, are so rarely prosecuted as to become quasi-legal.

Examples include a lot of white-collar scandals over the past decades --- Enron, CA blackouts, bank bailout of 2008, mortgage bundling, etc.

353 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:47:50pm

This is not my field of expertise either, but I AM outraged. It has been bad for a long time now, largely fueled by the idiotic drug war, but it is getting worse all the time.

With the many problems facing this country (economic and social), this one always slides to the bottom of the priority list. Considering the numbers involved (well over 1% of ALL adults in Louisiana are incarcerated...a rate 3X higher than Iran!) this is a problem that is going to be with us for many years, impacting generations to come.

Even at a relatively enlightened corner of the internet such as LGF, the topic seldom gets more intelligent treatment than "just make sure not to drop the soap".

354 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:49:59pm

re: #351 Obdicut

Yes, I'd have to agree.

Crime and punishment is big business even when you take away the private contractors.

When costs have to be cut it is the prison population which pays.

And in the end, that costs everybody else.

It's a cycle.

355 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:50:54pm

re: #352 EPR-radar

That's a whole other conversation- a really big one.

Talk about vested interests.

356 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:52:04pm

re: #354 researchok

And which is why your original call for more punishment was infuriating.

357 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:56:52pm

re: #353 bratwurst

Exactly.

And add to the mix the various political agendas- as if there are simple answers!

There are various correctional science theories- competing even- but they are shunted aside by big money with big influence in the political arena.

If corrections professionals were given the chance t develop a system without political/big money influence, our systems would look very different.

Prisons are a cash cow- and everyone but the prison populations benefit.

358 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:57:36pm

re: #356 Obdicut

No, punishment is an integral part of the justice system.

But it is not the only part.

359 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:01:22pm

re: #358 researchok

No, punishment is an integral part of the justice system.

Actually, I agree with this. Punishment should be part of the system. It shouldn't be the only part of the system.

The present US correctional system is pretty much only punishment, and punishment is also excessive.

Massive reform is needed in a system where people who get out of prison are often trained professionals in being criminal _because_ of their time in prison.

That's nuts.

360 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:03:37pm

re: #359 EPR-radar

I could not agree more.

The entire system is out of balance and has been for decades.

361 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:16:06pm

re: #358 researchok

No, punishment is an integral part of the justice system.

But it is not the only part.

Punishment qua punishment-- the suffering of the incarcerated-- is not useful. Nobody gains anything from the deprivation of prisoners. The deterrence value of punishment is the useful part of it. But many of the people committing crimes have a life outside prison that necessarily involves more hardship than we could create for them in prison without being as brutal as the thugs that run the neighborhoods they come from. We can't compete with the inner city as a punishment for people, and we shouldn't try. And of the dangerous criminals, the real professional assholes, they run the risk every day as a criminal of getting killed.

If you run the numbers, criminals make less than minimum wage. Some do better, very few have long careers. Most are not running the numbers, they are not considering the deterrent, because if they really envisioned getting caught then they wouldn't really find the crime worthwhile. Humans think they have a chance to win the lotto and waste their money on that; they sure as hell will risk abstract years of their life because they don't think they're going to get caught.

Obviously, we need some level of deprivation and some level of punishment for the justice system to work. But as it stands now, the punishment of prison, and of being a felon, is a crushing one on every level, including the economic, and thanks to idiots calling for more punishment and less rehabilitation, that punishment pushes criminals into a life of crime after their release by shutting off options for them.

362 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:20:00pm

re: #361 Obdicut

I have to hit the road now but I'll respnd in the AM

You raise some fair points

363 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:22:12pm

If you really want deterrence, up the number of crimes that get solved. Fund police departments more and end the reliance on seized property which has made police departments collusory in the drug war in the most godawful way.

364 Ming  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:00:35pm

re: #4 ReamWorks SKG

Obama's statement was spot-on and left me in tears.

I liked his choice of Psalm 147 to conclude. ([Link: www.mechon-mamre.org...] )

I agree. Sometimes, and especially today, I feel really honored that he's my President.

This is not a guy who will send American troops in harm's way, or approve a transcontinental oil pipeline, without thoughtful consideration.

It sometimes seems that Obama is the only adult in the room in Washington, D.C.

First-class all the way.


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