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Heartless ‘Religious’ Bastards of the Day: Mike Huckabee and Bryan Fischer

The sick spin from the religious right
Crime • Views: 28,804

We knew this would happen, didn’t we? Here are probably the two most despicable right wing reactions so far to the school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut.

First, Mike Huckabee on Fox News (of course), saying that we shouldn’t be surprised that “schools become a place of carnage” when we have “systematically removed God from our schools.”

HUCKABEE: Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. We ask why there is violence in our schools but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage? Because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability - that we’re not just going to have be accountable to the police if they catch us, but one day we stand before, you know, a holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that. And so I sometimes, when people say, why did God let it happen. You know, God wasn’t armed. He didn’t go to the school. But God will be there in the form of a lot people with hugs and with therapy and awhole lot of ways in which he will be involved in the aftermath. Maybe we ought to let him in on the front end and we wouldn’t have to call him to show up it’s all said and done at the back end.

The ever-execrable Bryan Fischer echoes this theme, saying God could have protected the children in Newtown, but “God is not going to go where he’s not wanted,” because God is a “gentleman.”

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293 comments

1 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:12pm

Don't know who's crazier: The gunman or the idiots believing divine intervention would have stopped him.

2 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:20pm

Because no Christian has ever killed anyone in the name of God.

Its fuckers like these bastards which makes me hold religion in such contempt.

3 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:40pm

Sorry, never before today and in a previous thread, have i heard of B. Fischer.

4 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:40pm

Repost from downstairs because it's the only thing that comes to mind when I hear or see religious fundamentalist garbage like this:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

--Epicurius

5 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:18pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Don't know who's crazier: The gunman or the idiots believing divine intervention would have stopped him.

Door #3: the people who believe that God specifically didn't intervene to make a point.

6 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:24pm

Gott mit uns.

7 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:48:01pm

Piss on their worthless lie of a god. He never had a problem with killing kids anyway.

I'm sorry, but it's like the only way to make anything more disgusting is to add a sprinkling of religion. 20 dead kids not bad enough? Invoke a figment of your imagination to scold the rest of the world about it.

Whatever psychological problem the shooter is inevitably found to have had, it's odd that no deity saw fit to remove it...

8 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:48:33pm

Someone pointed it out earlier.

Plenty of God and prayer in schools in Ireland, didn't stop anyone there from killing each other for centuries.

9 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:48:52pm

Complete rot.

God could have protected the children in Newtown, but “God is not going to go where he’s not wanted,” because God is a “gentleman.”
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

10 hwilsonsma  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:49:03pm

These two boneheads really piss me off! I am tired of the we got no God excuse!

11 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:12pm

These men are major leaders in the fundy political complex, shrewd operators with their money-grubbing fingers constantly on the pulse of their audience. They feel no compunction about making insanely callous and historically illiterate statements like this because they know it will play well with that target audience. It has come to this, a dystopian nightmare in which a significant part of the population has been indoctrinated to the point of actual insanity, and demonically cruel insanity at that. This is becoming very dangerous.

12 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:28pm

re: #3 Capitalist Tool

Sorry, never before today and in a previous thread, have i heard of B. Fischer.

As best I can tell, Bryan Fischer's God is the bat-faced star demon the Aztecs were so worried about.

13 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:39pm
14 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:51:10pm

re: #13 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Then God is a spiteful, petty bastard, no?

15 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:51:31pm

re: #12 The Ghost of a Flea

As best I can tell, Bryan Fischer's God is the bat-faced star demon the Aztecs were so worried about.

So, his holiday celebration would really be Dec. 21?

16 SidewaysQuark  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:51:38pm

Bryan Fischer is every bit as much a worthless and vile piece of trash as the Muslim jihadists he so readily scorns.

17 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:51:43pm

re: #11 Shiplord Kirel

These men are major leaders in the fundy political complex, shrewd operators with their money-grubbing fingers constantly on the pulse of their audience. They feel no compunction about making insanely callous and historically illiterate statements like this because they know it will play well with that target audience. It has come to this, a dystopian nightmare in which a significant part of the population has been indoctrinated to the point of actual insanity, and demonically cruel insanity at that. This is becoming very dangerous.

Its because of assholes like this I took a good hard look at the GOP, packed my bags, and left them.

18 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:51:47pm

At this point, I'm willing to start blaming these clowns for their share of the social rot that is probably contributing to mass shootings.

These are intensely hateful people, with a large podium from which to deliver that hate into society as a whole. Hate, gun fetishism, violence as entertainment, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam all seem like plausible factors that can contribute to the frequency with which people at the margins of society and with poor impulse control start shooting.

Fischer and Huckabee need to sit down and shut up.

19 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:52:15pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

Then God is a spiteful, petty bastard, no?

Pretty much. The Christian God is a whiny jealous little bitch according to Huckabee and Fischer.

20 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:52:26pm

I just remember that Huck was saying 911 was because of the same reason, and wonder why anyone listens to him any more.

21 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:53:08pm

Ya know, I don't believe in God, heaven, hell, judgement-any of that. Oddly, I haven't felt the urge to kill anyone, cause unnecessary pain, or steal jewelry lately. Unless I'm really, really exceptional (which I doubt) I think Huckabee needs to figure out that the fear of post-mortem punishment really doesn't stop a lot of crime.

22 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:53:08pm

re: #13 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Fischer, that's not a god, that's a prima donna.

23 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:04pm

re: #12 The Ghost of a Flea

As best I can tell, Bryan Fischer's God is the bat-faced star demon the Aztecs were so worried about.

Or, Fischer has made God in his own image, who conveniently happens to hate and loathe all the same things that Fischer does. What a coincidence.

24 Tigger2  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:11pm

re: #13 Kragar

[Embedded content]

I was in school about 50 years ago, I don't remember that much god in the schools. What is that idiot talking about.

25 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:21pm

You can rationalize with the irrational. You can't be reasonable with the unreasonable.

26 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:29pm
27 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:39pm

re: #11 Shiplord Kirel

These men are major leaders in the fundy political complex, shrewd operators with their money-grubbing fingers constantly on the pulse of their audience. They feel no compunction about making insanely callous and historically illiterate statements like this because they know it will play well with that target audience. It has come to this, a dystopian nightmare in which a significant part of the population has been indoctrinated to the point of actual insanity, and demonically cruel insanity at that. This is becoming very dangerous.

What scares me is that whether or not they mean it, what they say is part of the anatomy of a worldview which has real power in this nation. They're the voice for a population segment that our politicians heed and try to appease.

28 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:50pm

re: #21 calochortus

Ya know, I don't believe in God, heaven, hell, judgement-any of that. Oddly, I haven't felt the urge to kill anyone, cause unnecessary pain, or steal jewelry lately. Unless I'm really, really exceptional (which I doubt) I think Huckabee needs to figure out that the fear of post-mortem punishment really doesn't stop a lot of crime.

Sounds like the folks who argue that capital punishment serves as a "deterrence."

29 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:55:04pm

What if this murdering monster in Connecticut had decided to kill his mom in church? It could have happened. Dr. Tiller was murdered in church after all. Oh, but in Fischer's maggot infested mind that freak was doing God's work, so it would be okay.

30 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:55:31pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Jonesy, you've been screaming that for decades now. That guy knocking on your door isn't from the BATF, he's from Domino's.

31 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:57:37pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Exactly like he did after the mass shootings on December 11, September 27, August 5, July 20, May 29, April 6, and April 2 of this year.

32 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:57:47pm
33 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:58:24pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

Related:

34 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:58:29pm

It's not the god they want back in the schools it's the authoritarianism.

35 calochortus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:05pm

Correlation is not causation, but Huck and Fischer might want to check this out

36 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:16pm
37 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:37pm

re: #23 EPR-radar

Or, Fischer has made God in his own image, who conveniently happens to hate and loath all the same things that Fischer does. What a coincidence.

I can't speak about Fischer, knowing nothing about him, but your the 'making God in his own image' is right on the mark.
That's the problem with the fundamentalists of any religion- they try to make their concept of god fit into their own limited understanding. One finds misunderstandings at all levels of belief.

38 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:41pm

re: #19 Kragar

Pretty much. The Christian God is a whiny jealous little bitch according to Huckabee and Fischer.

More like an abusive, codependent parent.

They like the idea of a patriarch that can beat his family into loving him exactly the way he wants; it's what they're trying to implement in this country, after all.

39 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:44pm

When these yahoos tell you what "God" thinks, they're really telling you what they think. They're sadistic, passive-aggressive narcissists, so they imagine/want God to be the same. Consciously or not, when they talk about "God's" desires and motivations, they're saying "this is the way I unquestionably believe the world should be". And when you marginalize and ignore Huck & Fischer's will, you're actually marginalizing "God".

In their world, this "God" felt that he wasn't being sufficiently institutionally revered, so of course it's perfectly understandable that some jerkoff should come in and erase a bunch of kids and adults, because that will fucking show them what happens when you ignore me, won't it? After all, this is "God" we're talking about here, and only a fool would disagree with "God".

And lookie here, now we're paying attention to Huck & Fischer again all of a sudden, aren't we.

40 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:47pm

Yet for God's alledged inactions those souls whose lives were lost are probably in a much better place than the current crop of neo-Pharisees who keep making these asymmetric pronouncements as if they have the almighty on speed-dial, when in reality there isn't enough quetiapine to straighten their addled thinking and continue to be the current money-changers.

As we've already seen, many of these folk pronounced Obama's win as an another example of God's supposed inaction. Now turn it on its head-tell them that God ordained Obama to win and stand back-and as we all know, God can't be wrong now, can he?

41 Nemesis6  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:00:20pm

This will keep happening because of America's sick obsession with guns.

42 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:00:25pm

Final press conference of the day on now...

43 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:00:32pm

re: #30 Targetpractice

Jonesy, you've been screaming that for decades now. That guy knocking on your door isn't from the BATF, he's from Domino's.

Actually -and excluding the "fix" language - he may be right.

We the people tend to need a big spark. When we get one, we tend to act. This was pretty big, and it on the heels of the last one may actually cause movement.

Now I'm going to wager a lot of time, money, and effort gets spent delaying and obfuscating. We may not see an actual bill this time.

But we're going to see a discussion. We're going to see a reaction to the NRA's guns for everybody all the time position. And the result is the next time (and yes, sadly, there will be a next time) the groundwork will be laid.

And in some cases yes, they will come for some people's guns. Because if you're a paranoid anti-social (used to be sociopath) or involved in a vengeance situation you shouldn't have or have access to firearms.

44 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:01:59pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Speaking of prayer, I'm praying that such a thing will not happen, because the bloodbath would be horrific.

45 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:02:57pm

I am deeply skeptical of anyone who claims to speak for God, especially if their words don't line up with His.

46 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:38pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Conservatives deserve Alex Jones. I think it's perfect. Matt Drudge promoting 9/11 Truther Alex Jones.

47 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:47pm

re: #43 kirkspencer

Actually -and excluding the "fix" language - he may be right.

We the people tend to need a big spark. When we get one, we tend to act. This was pretty big, and it on the heels of the last one may actually cause movement.

Now I'm going to wager a lot of time, money, and effort gets spent delaying and obfuscating. We may not see an actual bill this time.

But we're going to see a discussion. We're going to see a reaction to the NRA's guns for everybody all the time position. And the result is the next time (and yes, sadly, there will be a next time) the groundwork will be laid.

And in some cases yes, they will come for some people's guns. Because if you're a paranoid anti-social (used to be sociopath) or involved in a vengeance situation you shouldn't have or have access to firearms.

I'd like to believe that, but I stopped believing it 61 odd public shootings ago. Here in VA, after the Virginia Tech shooting, what did the public talk about it? Did talk gun control? Sure, as in they thought there was too much and what we needed was free-fire zones on college campuses. Needed to allow students to come to class armed, that teachers needed to be armed, and we needed to turn college campuses into fortresses so that we could avoid future shootings.

We as a nation can't have a discussion until the day that the "If everybody was armed..." argument is buried 6 feet under.

48 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:04:15pm
Frank says:

Yeah, I tell them to change the channel if they see some guy in a brown suit with a telephone number at the bottom of the screen asking for money. -- on being asked by Tipper Gore if there was anything on the TV he _didn't_ allow his kids to watch ...

49 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:05:38pm

re: #46 Gus

Conservative deserve Alex Jones. I think it's perfect. Matt Drudge promoting 9/11 Truther Alex Jones.

It's totally routine for him now. I remember being surprised, almost shocked when Drudge started pushing Alex Jones - it seemed like a real border had been crossed. Now it's just every day.

That's one big indicator for me of how deranged the right wing has gotten.

50 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:06:12pm

I try to be live and let live regarding people believing in a god, but not today.

If any sort of loving god existed, these kids would be alive, and Huckabee and Bryan Fischer would be on the receiving end of a lightning bolt or a plague of locusts.

51 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:07:42pm

re: #50 Mattand

Erick Erickson:

"Our nation once shared a God who we all prayed to. Increasingly, the loudest voices in the nation are hostile to that God and those who worship him. The conversation at times of evil is immediately drown out by political opportunists seeking to drive their agenda. The news channels meditate on the nature of gun violence and gun restrictions or what other restrictions or laws can ever be used."

52 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:07:48pm

re: #50 Mattand

In a way, people like Bryan Fischer and Mike Huckabee are the true atheists. Because if they really believed in their evil, vengeful God, they'd never be so eager to speak in his behalf.

53 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:07:52pm

So God didn't stop the shooting in a school because we didn't allow God there?

So that mean God was perfectly okay with letting priests molest kids, seeing as they were his servants and all?

54 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:07:58pm

re: #47 Targetpractice

I'd like to believe that, but I stopped believing it 61 odd public shootings ago. Here in VA, after the Virginia Tech shooting, what did the public talk about it? Did talk gun control? Sure, as in they thought there was too much and what we needed was free-fire zones on college campuses. Needed to allow students to come to class armed, that teachers needed to be armed, and we needed to turn college campuses into fortresses so that we could avoid future shootings.

We as a nation can't have a discussion until the day that the "If everybody was armed..." argument is buried 6 feet under.

It's the particular dead that makes me think this. That, and the way the president spoke today.

Shootings at high schools and colleges give the illusion of adults - of people who 'could have done something'.

A kindergarten class? It grabs very, very hard.

You could be right, and in fact I agree enough I don't think we'll have changes started this time. But I think we'll have enough this time - especially has frequently as these have been happening recently - that change is possible.

55 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:08:16pm

re: #50 Mattand

I try to be live and let live regarding people believing in a god, but not today.

If any sort of loving god existed, these kids would be alive, and Huckabee and Bryan Fischer would be on the receiving end of a lightning bolt or a plague of locusts.

I'll leave the Unitarians and go back to the Baptists if these two quacks are struck dead, or at least singed, by a falling meteor before the end of the day.

56 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:09:03pm

re: #4 Lidane

Repost from downstairs because it's the only thing that comes to mind when I hear or see religious fundamentalist garbage like this:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

--Epicurius

I am willing to concede the point that god is real but that he is a complete asshole.

57 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:09:27pm

re: #51 jaunte

Erick Erickson:

Once more displaying the conceit that not all Christians are Christians, but instead only the evangelical fundamentalists.

58 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:09:41pm

re: #53 Kragar

Yeah, that's why God allowed Catholic priests to molest thousands and thousands of children in dozens of countries, because we took God out of the churches...

Oh wait.

59 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:10:13pm

re: #51 jaunte

Erick Erickson:

Ah, the old "Repressed American Christian Majority" argument.

60 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:10:13pm

re: #54 kirkspencer

It's the particular dead that makes me think this. That, and the way the president spoke today.

Shootings at high schools and colleges give the illusion of adults - of people who 'could have done something'.

A kindergarten class? It grabs very, very hard.

You could be right, and in fact I agree enough I don't think we'll have changes started this time. But I think we'll have enough this time - especially has frequently as these have been happening recently - that change is possible.

I've got a wingnut on another board telling me that the solution to today's tragedy would be to start requiring teachers to pack heat and take gun handling courses, because Israeli teachers are allowed to pack heat and they've been able to put down terrorists.

61 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:10:14pm

Because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about

it's painful to listen to them bend every uncomfortable reality to fit their ideology

and to presume to speak for god, to boot

62 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:10:49pm

There is no rhyme or reason. There was no plan; no destiny. These children died because of one man. These children were allowed to die because of men. Not God.

63 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:11:11pm

re: #58 Charles Johnson

Yeah, that's why God allowed Catholic priests to molest thousands and thousands of children in dozens of countries, because we took God out of the churches...

Oh wait.

Charles, I know you didn't intend it this way, but if you restrained your impulse to knock Bryan Fischer on his ass long enough to actually say this to him, he would probably, in all seriousness, agree. Hyper-evangelicals of Fischer's bent believe that the Catholic Church is anywhere between "godless" and "Satanic".

64 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:11:18pm

re: #52 Charles Johnson

In a way, people like Bryan Fischer and Mike Huckabee are the true atheists. Because if they really believed in their evil, vengeful God, they'd never be so eager to speak in his behalf.

Have you read the Old Testament? The god written about there (self described in many places apparently) is a complete asshole mother-fucking monster and frequent child murderer.

This is exactly the god they worship and their morality reflects it.

65 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:12:11pm

Got to take my daughter to her therapy appointment. Later all.

66 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:12:29pm

re: #59 Mattand

"War on Gunmas."

67 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:12:55pm

re: #60 Targetpractice

I've got a wingnut on another board telling me that the solution to today's tragedy would be to start requiring teachers to pack heat and take gun handling courses, because Israeli teachers are allowed to pack heat and they've been able to put down terrorists.

Have you asked him for cites for those two claims?

68 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:03pm

one of the biggest growth industries in this country today is helping people not deal with reality

69 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:09pm



70 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:14pm

re: #64 Destro

Have you read the Old Testament? The god written about there (self described in many places apparently) is a complete asshole mother-fucker child and frequent child murderer.

This is exactly the god they worship and their morality reflects it.

Who's "they"?

71 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:16pm

re: #67 kirkspencer

Have you asked him for cites for those two claims?

"Because I said so." Wait, that doesn't work?

72 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:13:29pm

re: #64 Destro

Have you read the Old Testament? The god written about there (self described in many places apparently) is a complete asshole mother-fucker child and frequent child murderer.

This is exactly the god they worship and their morality reflects it.

I've actually read the Bible more since I went atheist than I did as a Catholic.

The OT makes The Shining look like See Spot Run.

73 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:14:27pm

re: #51 jaunte

Erick Erickson:

Our nation never shared a god we all prayed to.

What a dumb ahistorical liar.

74 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:14:31pm

re: #70 Capitalist Tool

Who's "they"?

Huckabee and their ilk.

75 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:14:51pm

re: #55 Shiplord Kirel

I'll leave the Unitarians and go back to the Baptists if these two quacks are struck dead, or at least singed, by a falling meteor before the end of the day.

I'm an atheist, but I'd happily become the first prophet of any entity that supernaturally strikes down the likes of Huckabee or Fischer with divine lightning.

76 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:15:24pm

re: #64 Destro

Have you read the Old Testament? The god written about there (self described in many places apparently) is a complete asshole mother-fucking monster and frequent child murderer.

This is exactly the god they worship and their morality reflects it.

Destro your lack of knowledge is making me embarrassed for you. Please go learn something about what your blathering.

77 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:15:49pm

re: #75 EPR-radar

I'm an atheist, but I'd happily become the first prophet of any entity that supernaturally strikes down the likes of Huckabee or Fischer with divine lightning.

I would have settled on God saving those kids instead as proof......

78 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:16:10pm

re: #67 kirkspencer

Have you asked him for cites for those two claims?

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

79 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:17:45pm

re: #76 William Barnett-Lewis

Destro your lack of knowledge is making me embarrassed for you. Please go learn something about what your blathering.

I read the OT in Koine Greek and English and Hebrew. I know of what I speak.

The OT God is a mother fucking monster and genocidal killer. Prove me wrong.

80 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:17:53pm
81 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:18:16pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

Let me guess, said wingnut thinks he's a good enough shot to do that and never ever served in the military?

82 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:18:25pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

Soldier, no. Trained, yes. I would not want to put my kid's life in the hands of a random stranger with a gun versus another random stranger with lots of guns.

83 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:18:42pm

With these words (paraphrased), all the rest was swept away:

As you sow, so shall you reap, so do unto others as you would have done unto you, because it will be done unto you.
Does it not say in your own scriptures, "ye are gods"? (little g)

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another, as i have loved you.

84 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:19:01pm

re: #79 Destro

I read the OT is Koine Greek and English and Hebrew. I know of what I speak.

The OT God is a mother fucking monster and genocidal killer. Prove me wrong.

You have looked at the words. You have yet to read them. Try again.

85 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:19:30pm

re: #81 William Barnett-Lewis

Let me guess, said wingnut thinks he's a good enough shot to do that and never ever served in the military?

They always do, to a fault. This same one, back after the Aurora shooting, was boasting how easy it is to get a headshot on a guy wearing an armored helmet from the top of a smokey movie theater.

Dirty Harry complex, writ large.

86 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:20:36pm

re: #84 William Barnett-Lewis

You have looked at the words. You have yet to read them. Try again.

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

[Link: www.evilbible.com...]

More?

87 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:21:14pm

re: #52 Charles Johnson

In a way, people like Bryan Fischer and Mike Huckabee are the true atheists. Because if they really believed in their evil, vengeful God, they'd never be so eager to speak in his behalf.

And as much as they accuse liberalism and secularism of damning relativism, it's they who really have subjective moral standards. Their worldview posits a God who hasn't creating morals and rules out of love or kindness, but solely as an exercise of authority. If "God" does something, it must be good.

88 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:21:31pm

Yeah right Bryan, if the children had started out the day with a prayer for protection by your petty, jealous, wrathful, homicidal, and bigoted version of God then none of this would have happened?

God is omnipotent and omnipresent but because we don't have mandatory protestant prayer in school buildings he is impotent to act on school grounds?

You are one sick, cynical bastard, your attempt to use this incident is as transparent as your hatred for everyone who does not share your beliefs.

FOAD.

89 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:23:32pm
90 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:23:51pm
Yeah right Bryan, if the children had started out the day with a prayer for protection by your petty, jealous, wrathful, homicidal, and bigoted version of God then none of this would have happened?

The thing is, some of them probably did. Fat lot of good it did them.

91 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:14pm

re: #89 Lidane

[Embedded content]

If we just enforce the laws on the books, none of this will happen!

92 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:26pm

I think Fischer uses religion like rapists use sex. Twisted violent evil and horrible. Troubling thing is Fishers abuses are protected under the law so we are stuck with him and his show.

93 efuseakay  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:41pm

Their god must be Satan. We're I to believe in a god, he/she/it wouldn't be such a cold-hearted asshole.

94 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:25:05pm

re: #86 Destro

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

More?

Why, yes, I think I will: [Link: www.evilbible.com...] and [Link: www.evilbible.com...]

95 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:25:22pm

re: #90 Skip Intro

The thing is, some of them probably did. Fat lot of good it did them.

Man, I am angry right now. Time for a pizza and a joint and to hug my kids.

96 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:25:42pm

re: #94 Mattand

Why, yes, I think I will: [Link: www.evilbible.com...]

Thanks for the link! I messed it up.

97 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:26:22pm

re: #92 Political Atheist

Troubling thing is Fishers abuses are protected under the law so we are stuck with him and his show.

It's much worse than that because Fischer isn't just a lone wingnut. There a millions of people in this country who believe exactly the same thing. Just check out a few RWNJ sites to see the confirmation.

98 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:26:30pm

re: #89 Lidane

So she was killed with her own guns.

Obviously, the nutjobs will now bemoan she wasn't allowed to go to school armed with all three weapons every day.

99 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:34pm

re: #98 Obdicut

So she was killed with her own guns.

Obviously, the nutjobs will now bemoan she wasn't allowed to go to school armed with all three weapons every day.

Clearly, she was well armed. Why didn't she defend herself?

100 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:37pm

re: #96 Destro

Thanks for the link! I messed it up.

Sadly, there is a Murdering Children section. Updated my post.

101 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:44pm

re: #58 Charles Johnson

Yeah, that's why God allowed Catholic priests to molest thousands and thousands of children in dozens of countries, because we took God out of the churches...

Oh wait.

Those were papists, they aren't really Christians!!11!

/

102 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:28:03pm

re: #95 Destro

Man, I am angry right now. Time for a pizza and a joint and to hug my kids.

'long's ya don't get yer pizza here...
Link

103 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:28:25pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

He lived in Israel at one time and he heard about it, so that's what he knows to be the truth. I asked him if he considered that Israeli teachers are trained soldiers who are on reserve for most of their lives and can be called up at any time, meaning they have to keep their skills sharp. He declared that one doesn't have to be a trained soldier to put down a crazed gunman.

uh-huh. Let me see if I can recall. One handgun only with limited ammunition supply, must take knowledge and mental health exam every five years. Applicant must be active or reservist, or in one of a handful of 'at risk' categories. ummm, or be a settler in west bank or gaza. And I think retired military or police are eligible.

I'd have to look up to see if those have loosened (and what I've forgotten) but it's not the wide open situation your acquaintance believes.

As to putting down crazed gunmen... yeah. One of the people who thinks a carrier in the theater would have succeeded.

idiot.

104 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:28:37pm

re: #86 Destro

Hoo ray. You know how to cherry pick. Golf clap.

Try again sometime, with context historical, cultural & theological. Preferably without any predetermined outcomes that make you no better than that sick fuck Huck.

I doubt you can. You like hating as much as he does.

105 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:28:38pm

re: #98 Obdicut

So she was killed with her own guns.

Obviously, the nutjobs will now bemoan she wasn't allowed to go to school armed with all three weapons every day.

Only madness lies on the path of trying to make sense out of the wingnut worldview.

106 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:00pm

re: #100 Mattand

Sadly, there is a Murdering Children section. Updated my post.

Clearly we are not reading the words right......

107 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:03pm
108 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:14pm

re: #94 Mattand

Because of Fisher are we now going to call it open season on religion? That's the Hebrew Bible.

109 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:23pm

back later. suppertime.

110 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:36pm

re: #93 efuseakay

Their god must be Satan. We're I to believe in a god, he/she/it wouldn't be such a cold-hearted asshole.

I have a hard time imagining even Iblis (Shaitan) doing something like this. And if he did meet someone who'd massacred a room full of kindergarteners, he'd likely say, "Seriously........wtf?!"

111 Alexzander  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:49pm

We are still getting a really muddy picture of the brother, Ryan Lanza. I am starting to think that the mistaken Ryan from earlier actually was the brother of Adam. I can't even tell if he was actually taken into custody or not.

112 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:30:49pm

re: #104 William Barnett-Lewis

The bible really honestly does contain loads of fucked-up shit. It's cool that a lot of modern religious people don't follow the fucked up shit and have come up theology to put it to the side, but it is really still there, and it is really still fucked up.

113 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:31:17pm

Cue the wingnut bleating:

114 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:31:19pm

I'll tell you how Fischer and Barton really make me feel. A little over 40 years ago, a busload of refugees ran over an anti-tank mine on Route 3 in the Republic of Vietnam. I saw it happen. Fifty or so people, about half of them children, were killed. I won't bother you, or myself, with any graphic description of the scene. A soldier made a disgusting joke that I won't repeat.
An officer kicked him in the backside and sent him sprawling, right in front of dozens of witnesses. The soldier said he would have the officer brought up on charges but he never did. I realize the officer was wrong to act on that impulse, but he acted on real feelings in the face of an unspeakable situation. I have the same kind of feelings about Barton and Fischer just now. It would be wrong to act on that impulse either, but I will not reproach myself for the impulse alone.

115 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:31:20pm

re: #104 William Barnett-Lewis

Hoo ray. You know how to cherry pick. Golf clap.

Cherry-pick? Your god destroyed the entire population of the world, except for the old drunk Noah and his family, because he fucked up on the design. That makes him a vicious bastard in my book.

116 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:31:40pm

re: #104 William Barnett-Lewis

Hoo ray. You know how to cherry pick. Golf clap.

Try again sometime, with context historical, cultural & theological. Preferably without any predetermined outcomes that make you no better than that sick fuck Huck.

I doubt you can. You like hating as much as he does.

If god is god then he is perfect in and out of historical context. I can't expect to worship a god who can't rise above bronze age barbarisms and revels in it himself.

What? Was god going through puberty back in the OT and that was his "smite them all faze"?

It's all moot of course, we are arguing about a fictional god who was invented by bronze age people to mirror their morality. Nothing more.

117 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:32:02pm

re: #104 William Barnett-Lewis

Hoo ray. You know how to cherry pick. Golf clap.

Try again sometime, with context historical, cultural & theological. Preferably without any predetermined outcomes that make you no better than that sick fuck Huck.

I doubt you can. You like hating as much as he does.

Dude, the OT is a hotbed of murder and mayhem. Seriously, are you trying to tell us that lines like "Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes" from Isiah 13:15 is an allegory for something?

118 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:32:23pm

re: #108 Political Atheist

Because of Fisher are we now going to call it open season on religion? That's the Hebrew Bible.

Saying accurate things about the Bible is not declaring open season on religion.

That said, there doesn't appear to be any religious inspiration for this murder, and that the bible has fucked up shit in it isn't really that relevant to much.

119 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:32:33pm

re: #108 Political Atheist

Because of Fisher are we now going to call it open season on religion? That's the Hebrew Bible.

No, actually I went to an evangelical church for a few years, and they used the HB a lot more than the NT. They did skip all the naughty bits, though.

120 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:32:56pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

It's totally routine for him now. I remember being surprised, almost shocked when Drudge started pushing Alex Jones - it seemed like a real border had been crossed. Now it's just every day.

That's one big indicator for me of how deranged the right wing has gotten.

Like the comment I was just reading on prison planet about how Obama was obviously faking crying during his press conference because "the Reptilians don't cry." ???

121 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:33:27pm

re: #115 Skip Intro

Cherry-pick? Your god destroyed the entire population of the world, except for the old drunk Noah and his family, because he fucked up on the design. That makes him a vicious bastard in my book.

That makes god incompetent also that he had to do a recall.

122 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:34:21pm

Fischer is blaming the victims. He says they don't want god there.

123 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:34:40pm

The only relevance religion has to this story is Huckabee and Fischer's (and many others) misguided appeal to their own authority.

124 Michael McBacon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:08pm

This vindication of today's murder as an act of God by Mr. Fisher and Mr. Huckabee shows how much they really care about the lives of their fellow Americans.

125 Alexzander  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:09pm

This article at Slate seems to suggest that the mis-identified Ryan Lanza really is Adam's brother.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/12/14/adam_lanza_ryan_lanza_facebook_original_reports_of_newtown_school_shooter.html

126 Destro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:37pm

re: #123 jaunte

The only relevance religion has to this story is Huckabee and Fischer's (and many others) misguided appeal to their own authority.

They brought up god and we are bringing up on how their idea of god is wrong.

127 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:44pm

re: #98 Obdicut

So she was killed with her own guns.

Obviously, the nutjobs will now bemoan she wasn't allowed to go to school armed with all three weapons every day.

She was shot in her home, she was not the kindergarten teacher, the kindergarten teacher lived by the way. That was all just more bad information from earlier today.

128 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:53pm

[...]

Most Catholics (60 percent) and white non-evangelical Protestants (65 percent) say they believe disasters like hurricanes and floods are the result of climate change.

But nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of white evangelical Protestants say they think the storms are evidence of the "end times" as predicted by the Bible.

Overall, 36 percent point to end times and 63 percent to climate change.

PRRI research director Daniel Cox said that some respondents - including 75 percent of non-white Protestants - believe extreme weather is both evidence of end times and the result of climate change.

"No one really knows how (end times) would look and how God would bring it about," Cox said.

Politics also color perceptions of the weather, the survey found. More than three-quarters of Democrats and six in 10 independents believe that the weather has become more extreme over the last few years, while less than half of Republicans say they have perceived such a shift.

"Their political leanings are even affecting how they experience weather, which is pretty fascinating," said Cox.

[...]

129 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:36:13pm

re: #127 watching you tiny alien kittens are

She was shot in her home, she was not the kindergarten teacher, the kindergarten teacher lived by the way. That was all just more bad information from earlier today.

Oh, sorry. Anyway. Shot with her own guns.

130 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:36:17pm

Fuck, Huckabee and Fischer must be doing a good job at what they do if they became the face of religion here.

131 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:36:41pm

re: #112 Obdicut

The bible really honestly does contain loads of fucked-up shit. It's cool that a lot of modern religious people don't follow the fucked up shit and have come up theology to put it to the side, but it is really still there, and it is really still fucked up.

I agree with you Obdicut, but Destro is simply someone who wants an excuse to hate as much as Huck does. He's not interested in the rest, simply repeating things that Marcion of Sinope would have agreed with.

132 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:36:46pm

re: #100 Mattand

Sadly, there is a Murdering Children section. Updated my post.

I don't need this deeply offensive cherry picked garbage today. Are you deliberately offending people of faith as you try to decry a fanatic like Fischer?

133 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:38:48pm

re: #125 Alexzander

This article at Slate seems to suggest that the mis-identified Ryan Lanza really is Adam's brother.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/12/14/adam_lanza_ryan_lanza_facebook_original_reports_of_newtown_school_shooter.html

Yeah, and it makes perfect sense, since the shooter was reported to have Ryan Lanza's ID on him.

134 Mattand  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:38:53pm

re: #108 Political Atheist

re: #118 Obdicut

When I see people like Huckabee essentially stand over a pile of dead kids and "TOLDJA SO!", I get tired of being diplomatic.

It's a chain reaction for me. People who believe in a Christian god (justifiably) dogpile on the fanatics, but ignore the bigger issue of how this loving omniscient entity they believe will sit by and let innocent kids die.

I can't do that kind of cognitive dissonance anymore, or in situations like this.

135 Alexzander  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:40:19pm

re: #133 Charles Johnson

Yeah, and it makes perfect sense, since the shooter was reported to have Ryan Lanza's ID on him.

What an incredible nightmare of a day for Ryan Lanza. I am not sure I can imagine a worse day.

136 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:40:30pm

re: #84 William Barnett-Lewis

You have looked at the words. You have yet to read them. Try again.

Oh c'mon. The OT God does come off like a complete cock knocker. Drowning the world in flood. Transmogrifying Lot's wife. Hardening Pharaoh's heart just so he could then inflict the plagues. Burning the son's of Aaron to death for making a mistake during a ritual. Sending Joshua and the Israelites to Jericho in Caanan and having them destroy everything.

They completely destroyed everything in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything.

Compare that to the NT God who pretty much at his worst just bitched a fig tree to death and talked shit about how he came to "bring a sword."

137 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:40:54pm
138 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:41:30pm

re: #111 Alexzander

We are still getting a really muddy picture of the brother, Ryan Lanza. I am starting to think that the mistaken Ryan from earlier actually was the brother of Adam. I can't even tell if he was actually taken into custody or not.

C BS showed Ryan being led in cuffs (somewhere,) earlier. Yhey took great pains to explain the cuffs as 'routine'.

139 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:42:52pm

The new testament (largely) covered a much smaller span of time than the OT.

140 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:43:12pm

Update from ABC

20 children, 6 adults killed at Conn. school shooting
The gunman is dead, and a body was also found in the shooter's home, bringing the total to 28.

141 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:43:26pm

re: #137 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Reminds me of the interrogation scene in Lord of War, of Ethan Hawke's character pointing out that there are more prestigious positions he could take, like guarding the nation's nuclear weapon stockpile. But the thing is that those nukes aren't going anywhere, they sit in their silos quietly. It's the AK-47, that's the weapon of mass destruction, that's the weapon that kills millions of people every year.

142 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:43:54pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

Oh c'mon. The OT God does come off like a complete cock knocker. Drowning the world in flood. Transmogrifying Lot's wife. Hardening Pharaoh's heart just so he could then inflict the plagues. Burning the son's of Aaron to death for making a mistake during a ritual. Sending Joshua and the Israelites to Jericho in Caanan and having them destroy everything.

Don't forget how he treated his loyal servant Job. Murdered his entire family, killed all his livestock, and inflicted on Job hideous physical ailments. He did make it up in the end, though, by giving Job a brand spanking new family and even more material stuff, so I guess Job didn't miss his old wife and kids.

143 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:45:53pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

I remember trying to tell people about Jesus talking a tree to death once but no one would believe me.

144 efuseakay  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:46:46pm

ABC Nightly just interviewed a pastor who said many of the children were members of his congregation.

Fuckabee and Fischer can suck it.

145 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:47:35pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

Oh c'mon. The OT God does come off like a complete cock knocker. Drowning the world in flood. Transmogrifying Lot's wife. Hardening Pharaoh's heart just so he could then inflict the plagues. Burning the son's of Aaron to death for making a mistake during a ritual. Sending Joshua and the Israelites to Jericho in Caanan and having them destroy everything.

Compare that to the NT God who pretty much at his worst just bitched a fig tree to death and talked shit about how he came to "bring a sword."

... and offer warnings about those who claim to speak for God- many will cry Lord, Lord... they come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves...

146 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:48:19pm

re: #143 dragonath

I remember trying to tell people about Jesus talking a tree to death once but no one would believe me.

Say what?

147 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:49:23pm

re: #146 b_sharp

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

148 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:49:38pm

re: #144 efuseakay

ABC Nightly just interviewed a pastor who said many of the children were members of his congregation.

Fuckabee and Fisher can suck it.

To bury so many of his flock in the days to come? I wouldn't wish such a thing on any man.

149 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:50:06pm

By the way, we had major incoming links from both Reddit.com and Fark.com today:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

150 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:50:20pm

re: #143 dragonath

I remember trying to tell people about Jesus talking a tree to death once but no one would believe me.

Are you sure you didn't confuse the Bible with that episode of Star Trek where Kirk talked a computer to death?

//

151 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:50:28pm

Eric Hovind joins in:

152 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:50:46pm

re: #147 dragonath

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Any other day and I'd make a joke about this.

153 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:50:50pm

re: #149 Charles Johnson

By the way, we had major incoming links from both Reddit.com and Fark.com today:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

Wow, we got Farked and nary a blip on the latency meters. I am impressed. Next step, Slashdot!

154 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:51:01pm

re: #143 dragonath

I remember trying to tell people about Jesus talking a tree to death once but no one would believe me.

Here it is!
God Hates Figs! Matthew 21:18-20, Mark 11:12-14

155 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:51:10pm

re: #118 Obdicut

Saying accurate things about the Bible is not declaring open season on religion.

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view? In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for. Lots of old religious documents are quite violent as was the time and place. But thanks to one horrible day, Mr Huckabee and Fischer, we have what I objected to.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today? Or shall we wait for some horrific incident at an Islamic school? Or as I believe-We should refrain from that kind of thing.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

156 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:51:28pm

re: #149 Charles Johnson

I'm thick- were those websites linking to this site, or attacking this site (both?)

157 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:52:10pm

re: #156 Capitalist Tool

I'm thick- were those websites linking to this site, or attacking this site (both?)

Linking, but they are extremely high-traffic sites that usually bury their targets under an avalanche. That we survived with no interruptions is a feat of extreme technical engineering.

158 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:52:28pm

re: #156 Capitalist Tool

I'm thick- were those websites linking to this site, or attacking this site (both?)

They're both big link aggregator sites - they linked to us, and drove a ton of traffic our way.

159 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:52:54pm

re: #149 Charles Johnson

By the way, we had major incoming links from both Reddit.com and Fark.com today:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

I clicked on that link and it hijacked the tab, so I used the back button and got another Frank Says:

Frank says:

Get smart and I'll f*ck you over, sayeth The Lord.

160 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:54:27pm

God: I want you to go there and fuck shit up. Destroy everything.

Josh: Okay, sure ... um like, even the donkeys?

God: Damn straight even the donkeys!

161 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:55:29pm

re: #155 Political Atheist

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today?

If an Imam said the kind of crap these two - or is it now three - douchenozzles said, you bet your ass it would.

162 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:56:40pm

re: #158 Charles Johnson

Thanks- I shoulda answered my own question. Looked 'em both up and figured out what was the deal... don't get out much, I guess.

163 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:59:22pm
164 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:00:23pm
165 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:06:03pm

re: #155 Political Atheist

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view? In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for. Lots of old religious documents are quite violent as was the time and place. But thanks to one horrible day, Mr Huckabee and Fischer, we have what I objected to.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today? Or shall we wait for some horrific incident at an Islamic school? Or as I believe-We should refrain from that kind of thing.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

The larger point is that every Christian is a so-called "Cafeteria Christian". Some pick and choose the good/inspirational parts of the bible, others choose to focus on the demented and evil shit it contains. Really undercuts the whole scripture as authority business model... As far as I know, these exact same observations apply to Islam and the Koran as well.

166 Lidane  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:09:43pm
167 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:09:45pm
168 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:10:00pm

re: #155 Political Atheist

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view? In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for. Lots of old religious documents are quite violent as was the time and place. But thanks to one horrible day, Mr Huckabee and Fischer, we have what I objected to.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today? Or shall we wait for some horrific incident at an Islamic school? Or as I believe-We should refrain from that kind of thing.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

I just came back from Facebook where a friend of my brother's was doing some kind of MBF act, citing school murders by Muslims using Jihad Watch, NRO, thereligionofpeace, and Free Republic as sources. I think his point was that the US ain't so bad--look at these other people. It's a senseless reaction when there's obviously something wrong here to point elsewhere and say there's something wrong 'over there'.

So, no MBF act, you're right that we should refrain from that. But let's not shy away from talking about what's wrong here.

169 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:10:18pm

re: #119 Skip Intro

No, actually I went to an evangelical church for a few years, and they used the HB a lot more than the NT. They did skip all the naughty bits, though.

strictly speaking, christ brings the "new covenant", and that is the reason it is not necessary for christians to follow e.g. jewish dietary laws, but evangelicals still cite the O.T.

try asking them who decided which passages of the O.T. are still god's immutable law and which parts they are allowed to ignore, where they wrote it down, and where they got the authority to decide

170 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:10:57pm

2.5 kids per family doesn't happen by accident. When a priest looks out on a congregation configured this way, he must know there is family planning going on.

171 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:11:10pm

re: #161 Skip Intro

If an Imam said the kind of crap these two - or is it now three - douchenozzles said, you bet your ass it would.

Well tread carefully. You registered here recently. Just be aware that some have posted anti Islamic/anti Muslim rants here that got them in real trouble with Charles, due to old history of a lot of that here in the old days. I just say this as a person that tries to follow the rules out of respect to Charles and what he gives us here.

All I'm doing is asking, just requesting us to stop short of that point of using cherry picked passages to disrespect a religion, rather than those who abuse it. A "murdering children section"? That's pretty out there.

172 researchok  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:11:52pm

re: #168 wrenchwench

I would agree.

The measure of the 'health' of believers is not so much they believe but rather how they behave.

Same as everybody else.

173 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:12:07pm

re: #160 goddamnedfrank

God: I want you to go there and fuck shit up. Destroy everything.

Josh: Okay, sure ... um like, even the donkeys?

God: Damn straight even the donkeys!

Lots of slaughter in the bible, there would be even more but it turns out that God is powerless against Iron Chariots...

Judges 1

1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the Lord, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?

2 And the Lord said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.

4 And Judah went up; and the Lord delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.

5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.

...

17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.

18 Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.

19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

174 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:14:01pm

re: #155 Political Atheist

Cherry picking is often "accurate". It's also misleading. Is that a fair summery of the bible in your view?

No. The bible isn't a very coherent work and is impossible to summarize. It's an anthological work large parts of which contradict each other violently.

In this case it's ignoring any and all of the good things the OT or new testament calls for.

Yeah, well, those don't actually remove the other things from existence.

Would a similarly hostile post about the Koran be appropriate here today?

Yes, if we lived in a dominant Islamic culture and had assholes on the TV pontificating about how this occurred because we had removed Allah from our schools.

Do we really want to see a Pam Geller & Islam kind of view of the bible here today? I don't.

That is way over the line. Destro is an obvious and often spectacularly poor attention-seeking shit-stirrer, but he hasn't said anything close to what Geller has or done what she's done.

175 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:15:42pm

re: #171 Political Atheist

Well tread carefully. You registered here recently. Just be aware that some have posted anti Islamic/anti Muslim rants here that got them in real trouble with Charles, due to old history of a lot of that here in the old days. I just say this as a person that tries to follow the rules out of respect to Charles and what he gives us here.

All I'm doing is asking, just requesting us to stop short of that point of using cherry picked passages to disrespect a religion, rather than those who abuse it. A "murdering children section"? That's pretty out there.

Well, if you're threatening me with a banning, go for it. However, I don't understand the problem with quoting the bible when talking about it.

Most people just ignore the ugly stuff, but if you ask any evangelical about the bible you'll be told that it's the unerring, divinely inspired word of god. So, that being the case, it's all fair game. People who never bother to actually read it might even learn something they never heard in Sunday school.

176 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:16:41pm

Sen. Al Franken gets it partly right, but doesn't go far enough:
Link

177 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:17:08pm

re: #172 researchok

I would agree.

The measure of the 'health' of believers is not so much they believe but rather how they behave.

Same as everybody else.

I shouldn't have replied to this friend of my brother. Now he's asking me to cite any unfactual post at Jihad Watch or Religion of Peace. I have no idea who this is, just that he replied to an anti-gun comment (and a mild one at that) that my brother made.

178 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:18:12pm

Anyway.

This shooting didn't happen because of religion. It didn't happen in spite of religion. Religion has fuck-all to do with the shooting.

What is annoying is the level that people interject religion. The assholes Fischer and Huckabee are doing that, and many, many, many other people agree with them. They form a large voting block in this country. It really is something that's a concern to our society. We have a problem with radical christianity in the US.

The problem is that radical Christianity uses the same text as nice-nice-door-neighbor Christianity. And while nice-next-door-Christians either mitigate the text or ignore it when it contains awful stuff, the radical Christians use it to justify terrible things.

They also use stuff that doesn't appear in the bible at all, though, like abortion, and justify murder with that. The problem is not the Bible. You are correct in that.

But we really, really need to deal with the problem of radical Christianity, and i think it's up to the moderate Christians to do so, both ethically and practically.

179 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:19:12pm

FOX news was talking about staffing schools with armed guards. Teachers are too expensive, but armed guards seem like a good solution to these assholes.

180 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:19:50pm

re: #179 Amory Blaine

FOX news was talking about staffing schools with armed guards. Teachers are too expensive, but armed guards seem like a good solution to these assholes.

More weapons. Good for the NRA, good for the GOP.

181 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:21:20pm

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

182 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:22:15pm

re: #181 Obdicut

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

It's always been like this and it always will be.

183 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:22:22pm

re: #174 Obdicut

That is way over the line. Destro is an obvious and often spectacularly poor attention-seeking shit-stirrer, but he hasn't said anything close to what Geller has or done what she's done.

"Murdering children section". When I saw that I was instantly reminded of how Pammy looks at Islam. It's a page out of her playbook, if not the worst page. Sorry, I'm not backing up an inch on my thought we should refrain. Huck and fisher are not enough reason to go there. About 2 billion Christians don't deserve that kind of approach to their religion or it's bible. Nor do the millions of Jewish people.

184 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:22:29pm

You have to think of your own peace. Fuck the world.

185 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:22:35pm

re: #171 Political Atheist

Well tread carefully. You registered here recently. Just be aware that some have posted anti Islamic/anti Muslim rants here that got them in real trouble with Charles, due to old history of a lot of that here in the old days. I just say this as a person that tries to follow the rules out of respect to Charles and what he gives us here.

All I'm doing is asking, just requesting us to stop short of that point of using cherry picked passages to disrespect a religion, rather than those who abuse it. A "murdering children section"? That's pretty out there.

Why is a "murdering children" section of Bible quotes out there, if the quotes are accurate?

Fundamentalist bible-thumping political activists are obnoxious, loud, and frequently go after separation of church and state to try to institute a theocracy in support of their twisted version of god. Therefore, it is pretty much always open season on Biblical literalism, as far as I'm concerned.

186 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:24:15pm

re: #183 Political Atheist

Nor do the millions of Jewish people.

How come it's never the Jewish people doing this? Only the Asshole Radical Christians. Every. Single. Time.

187 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:25:06pm

Forget rehabilitating prisoners until you have found a way to rehabilitate Free Republic:


To: Tailgunner Joe

I thought Obama would be happy, most of the victims where white...

24 posted on Fri 14 Dec 2012 05:03:18 PM CST by apillar

188 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:26:17pm

re: #179 Amory Blaine

FOX news was talking about staffing schools with armed guards. Teachers are too expensive, but armed guards seem like a good solution to these assholes.

Pointless and perhaps even dangerous to have a minimum wage barely trained armed rent-a-cop at the school. The shooter will always have the advantage of surprise, the only thing that would happen is that the guard would end up being the first one shot.

Not like he can be on hair trigger alert all day with one hand on his gun and his holster strap off ready for a quick draw.

All Pinellas County schools have at least one police officer stationed there during school hours, the large high schools have two or three. Again it might be easy for someone to get the drop on the police officer but in a large school you can't be sure where he is at any time. Plus at least the officer has adequate training for a shooting event if it comes to it.

189 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:26:48pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

I shouldn't have replied to this friend of my brother. Now he's asking me to cite any unfactual post at Jihad Watch or Religion of Peace. I have no idea who this is, just that he replied to an anti-gun comment (and a mild one at that) that my brother made.

wow. ok. Current top post is at Jihad watch is that the incoming Texas curriculum is a "severely whitewashed Islam curriculum". Why? Well, it allegedly - according to Spencer who cites the WND - teaches that "Allah is the Almighty God." Oh, and "the Boston Tea Party is a terrorist attack on par with the 9/11 attack."

Really? In TEXAS, where the open material is being condemned for being fundamentalist CHRISTIAN?

190 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:27:02pm

re: #185 EPR-radar

My commute beckons, I took my best shot at making a point speaking to respect for another religion. Take it or leave it as always on the internet of course.

191 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:27:14pm

re: #178 Obdicut

But we really, really need to deal with the problem of radical Christianity, and i think it's up to the moderate Christians to do so, both ethically and practically.

I agree & I try. I don't think enough people in America, though, understand just how radical & dangerous people like Huck & company are because he hides it in his "aw, shucks" manner & wraps his warped theocratic non-sense in stuff that sounds much more normal.

192 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:28:04pm

re: #181 Obdicut

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

I don't regret not having kids, but I do want more kids to be born into this world, and I want them raised by people like you and your wife. The fact that it gives you pause is just more evidence that you're one of the people who should do it. No guarantees of the outcome, but that's life.

I have another niece on the way. I'll keep trying to make this a better place.

193 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:29:31pm

re: #187 Decatur Deb

Forget rehabilitating prisoners until you have found a way to rehabilitate Free Republic:

Headdesk

194 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:29:57pm

re: #188 watching you tiny alien kittens are

But think of the new job growth- fashion the program in the manner of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administrations and...
slap sap SLAP
Ok, I'm awake now- dozed off and nightmares...

195 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:30:11pm

re: #183 Political Atheist

You've got to be able to deal with the fact that those words are in the Bible. Muslims have to deal with the fact those words are in the Koran. It's reality. It's also reality there's not a damn thing in there about abortion, except a little bit in the OT that basically shows they didn't believe a zygote was the same thing as a person, but the majority of Christians somehow think there's a theological basis for banning abortion. I completely accept Christians are not robots programmed by the Bible, and I don't think that site is in any way making that claim. On the other hand, much of what is said about Muslims by Geller literally is that they are consumed by Islam in a fanatical way that makes them follow every bloodiest instruction they can find in any haddith. On the other hand, the author of the "Evil Bible" webpage has this to say:

I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

He is completely acknowledging that most Christianity as practiced selectively ignores these passages precisely because they don't like them and represent their values.

196 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:30:49pm

re: #187 Decatur Deb

Forget rehabilitating prisoners until you have found a way to rehabilitate Free Republic:

That one is easy.
One-way spatial displacement.
AKA, teleporting them far, far away.
;)

197 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:31:13pm

re: #190 Political Atheist

My commute beckons, I took my best shot at making a point speaking to respect for another religion. Take it or leave it as always on the internet of course.

I have some respect for the more civilized variants of Christianity.

I have no respect for Biblical literalism.

I am tired of criticism of Biblical literalism being viewed as an attack on Christianity.

198 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:32:11pm

Screw the Holy Books of the world.
/Many birds with one, big ass stone.
:P

199 Tigger2  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:37:50pm

re: #179 Amory Blaine

FOX news was talking about staffing schools with armed guards. Teachers are too expensive, but armed guards seem like a good solution to these assholes.

Just say the armed guards will be union members and Fox will scrap that idea.

200 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:46:56pm

Gun Advocacy Group Responds: ‘Gun Control Supporters Have The Blood Of Little Children On Their Hands’

“Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun.”

201 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:48:12pm

re: #200 Gus

Fucking infuriating.

202 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:48:22pm

re: #188 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Pointless and perhaps even dangerous to have a minimum wage barely trained armed rent-a-cop at the school. The shooter will always have the advantage of surprise, the only thing that would happen is that the guard would end up being the first one shot.

Not like he can be on hair trigger alert all day with one hand on his gun and his holster strap off ready for a quick draw.

All Pinellas County schools have at least one police officer stationed there during school hours, the large high schools have two or three. Again it might be easy for someone to get the drop on the police officer but in a large school you can't be sure where he is at any time. Plus at least the officer has adequate training for a shooting event if it comes to it.

One of my best friends is a "rent-a-cop." I really think it is one of the most unfairly stereotyped and vilified occupations in the country, thanks to what amounts to a hate campaign by thoughtless and ignorant Hollywood writers. Paul Blatt: Mall Cop is a work of fiction, and a stupid at that, but it seems to be the standard for public perception. Real people are mocked, assaulted, and spat upon because of these misperceptions and the offenders are often amazed to find themselves beaten to a pulp and thrown in jail for acting on them. Standards vary, but here in Texas, private security officers are licensed by the state police and trained and tested under police supervision. I don't know of any security company that pays minimum wage, and certainly not for armed officers. They have the same protection from threats or attacks that publicly-employed police officers do: 10 years in prison for assaulting one, a year for a terroristic threat. "He was just a rent-a-cop" is likely to earn a serious attitude correction from the "real cops." Stories of bad blood between the two are bullshit, the cops will respond in a hurry and take decisive action if there is a threat against a uniformed private officer.
It isn't really an issue though: A public school could never, ever hire such officers, the stereotypes are just too strong, especially among the young.

203 dragonfire1981  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:48:56pm

re: #200 Gus

Gun Advocacy Group Responds: ‘Gun Control Supporters Have The Blood Of Little Children On Their Hands’

I have neither a face nor a palm big enough for this statement.

204 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:49:07pm

re: #201 Obdicut

Fucking infuriating.

Let's call them what they are, domestic terrorists.

205 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:49:35pm

We already know many of them as the American Taliban. They have much in common with ME terrorists.

206 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:49:41pm

We have to do much better on the mental health front as well as on the gun front. My town lost 2 fine citizens to a disturbed man with a gun. Laura's Law might have helped.

207 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:50:41pm

re: #199 Tigger2

Just say the armed guards will be union members and Fox will scrap that idea.

SEIU is trying very hard to organize security guards. It is an uphill battle but they have had some success.

208 Tigger2  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:55:46pm

re: #207 Shiplord Kirel

SEIU is trying very hard to organize security guards. It is an uphill battle but they have had some success.

I hope they have a lot more success, we need to expand union membership to help the middle class.

209 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:57:01pm

re: #208 Tigger2

I hope they have a lot more success, we need to expand union membership to help the middle class.

We need an IT workers Union

210 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:02:10pm
211 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:05:01pm

re: #181 Obdicut

Most people are decent and caring. The world would not work at all if this were not true. And if you bring up your children to be loving human beings - it is very possible to do - then you will have made the world better, and permanently so, because the love we cause lives on after us.

212 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:05:40pm
213 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:08:35pm

re: #212 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

The NRA is lead by a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theory loving lunatics. Starting with Wayne LaPierre. People should go through the NRA leadership list at Meet the NRA to learn more.

214 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:08:41pm

Our response to this needs to be broad-based and honest. Gun control should be on the table but so should mental health and fundamental cultural issues.
Some long-standing assumptions need to be re-examined. For example, should the president change the policy of not directly addressing the crazed gun culture? Will he only help the standing of Wayne LaPierre, or Alex Jones for that matter, by calling them liars in public? Will it really only increase their credibility and the size of their audience? I really think this assumption should be re-examined. Our objective is not to keep these creeps as obscure as possible, it should be to shine the light on them like the cockroaches they are. As it is, few outside their immediate constituencies and their active opponents know about them. Yet they have real influence, they and swarms of kooks like them are a major reason we can't have real action on some important issues.
To take another example, for years I have heard that exposing the John Birch Society will only help them by making more people aware of them. This somehow assumes that awareness is more likely than not to equate to agreement. I reject that. If more people knew about JBS, there would be more recognition of their termite like influence on things like local school boards and GOP affiliates.
The kooks are here, they have millions of followers. They won't go away if "real" leaders and thinkers just continue to ignore and dismiss them.

215 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:12:37pm

re: #214 Shiplord Kirel

Agree 100%

216 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:14:14pm

I left for a bit and didn't see the response Destro had to de-constructing his view of Europe. I'll say this. As a Muslim, I feel much safer in the US than almost anywhere in Europe, save Scandinavia.

In addition, the raging hemorrhoid doesn't seem to realize one can change their politics on single issues if a certain event is heavy enough. Yes, I am now in favor of stricter gun laws. At one point, I was Pro-Life as well, but shifted on that too. And on guns, I'm wanting the more stringent background checks and application process for gun owners, along with restrictions on ammo.

In other words, what Scandinavia and the Czechs do.

217 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:17:36pm

We need some "Nixon to China" or "Sadat to Jerusalem" level outside-the-box thinking on this. Maybe Obama should personally challenge Alex Jones, Wayne LaPierre, and Rush Limbaugh to a public debate, individually or all at once. All at once would be more fun, but the result would be the same in any case: Nutcase idiots humiliated for their refusal to participate or, better yet, exposed as jibbering frauds in front of a national audience.
The "adult" GOP would object, of course, on the grounds that these people are insignificant gadflies. That lie could be quickly exposed with poll results and concrete examples of their influence.

218 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:20:43pm

re: #216 ProMayaLiberal

In fact, I think I am now completely in lockstep with the Social Democrats of Scandinavia.

219 CarleeCork  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:22:16pm

There is NO reason for an ordinary citizen to own a weapon that can fire SIX fucking bullets per second.

This country has been taken over by crazies!

220 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:22:49pm

re: #218 ProMayaLiberal

In fact, I think I am now completely in lockstep with the Social Democrats of Scandinavia.

I'm eagerly waiting for the next season of "Lilyhammer" to make it to Netflix.

221 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:23:55pm

re: #219 CarleeCork

No reason at all. And in fact, the 2nd amendment is completely well served by a single shot bolt action rifle with a scope.

222 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:24:40pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Anyway.

This shooting didn't happen because of religion. It didn't happen in spite of religion. Religion has fuck-all to do with the shooting.

What is annoying is the level that people interject religion. The assholes Fischer and Huckabee are doing that, and many, many, many other people agree with them. They form a large voting block in this country. It really is something that's a concern to our society. We have a problem with radical christianity in the US.

The problem is that radical Christianity uses the same text as nice-nice-door-neighbor Christianity. And while nice-next-door-Christians either mitigate the text or ignore it when it contains awful stuff, the radical Christians use it to justify terrible things.

They also use stuff that doesn't appear in the bible at all, though, like abortion, and justify murder with that. The problem is not the Bible. You are correct in that.

But we really, really need to deal with the problem of radical Christianity, and i think it's up to the moderate Christians to do so, both ethically and practically.

Because religion never got anyone killed.

223 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:25:25pm

re: #200 Gus

Gun Advocacy Group Responds: ‘Gun Control Supporters Have The Blood Of Little Children On Their Hands’

This is what I've been wanting to do to people like these, along with Fischer and Huckabee all day.

224 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:25:42pm

re: #219 CarleeCork

The only situation I could see that being reasonable is if another Katrina-Class (or worse) disaster occurs.

And at that point, it would be better to just call in NATO.

225 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:26:03pm

re: #222 Four More Tears

Because religion never got anyone killed.

Huh?

226 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:26:24pm

Here's a conversation that just happened:

Me: So, did you hear about that shooting today?

My Wingnut Mom: So, did you see our President crying on TV today. He shouldn't have done that. It tells everyone that we're weak!

Me: *walks away, not even caring enough to make Boehner jokes*

227 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:27:08pm

re: #225 Obdicut

Huh?

I didn't think that needed a sarc tag, but sometimes I misjudge.

228 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:27:41pm

This is the best website.
BBL.

229 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:30:41pm

re: #219 CarleeCork

There is NO reason for an ordinary citizen to own a weapon that can fire SIX fucking bullets per second.

This country has been taken over by crazies!

Ordinary citizens can only own an automatic weapon after very rigorous scrutiny, licensing and fees- it's called a Class 3 Firearms license.

It is probably possible to fire some semi- auto firearms (and revolvers) that fast (6 rds/sec) with rapid trigger pulls, as well.

230 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:31:51pm

re: #219 CarleeCork

There is NO reason for an ordinary citizen to own a weapon that can fire SIX fucking bullets per second.

This country has been taken over by crazies!

Uhm, to own a firearm that can actually fire that fast you have to pay between $5,000 & $100,000 for the fully automatic weapon, pay a $200 excise tax, have the approval of your local chief of police and have an ATF form approved by the federal government before you can take possession of that registered fully automatic firearm. That has been the case since 1934.

No semi-automatic that you can buy without going through those steps can fire that fast.

On top of that, I can fire a Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle at the speed of that legal semi-auto though it does only have a 10 round magazine.

Yeah, there are a whole lot of crazies out there but we are not helped by misunderstanding the details of these things. Simply freaking out only helps the NRA & others spread FUD.

231 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:32:02pm

re: #227 Four More Tears

I didn't think that needed a sarc tag, but sometimes I misjudge.

On a site where everyone uses sarc tags you invite misinterpretation by not using them.

"Surely he can't mean that, it must be sarcasm? Hmm...but he didn't use any sarc tags so maybe that means he does mean it?"

;)

232 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:32:23pm

Some weapons should be banned too.

There is no need for a civilian to own a .50 cal.

Not sure about the very obscure cannon loophole.

233 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:32:35pm

re: #217 Shiplord Kirel

We need some "Nixon to China" or "Sadat to Jerusalem" level outside-the-box thinking on this.

Very much agreed.

Maybe Obama should personally challenge Alex Jones, Wayne LaPierre, and Rush Limbaugh to a public debate, individually or all at once. All at once would be more fun, but the result would be the same in any case: Nutcase idiots humiliated for their refusal to participate or, better yet, exposed as jibbering frauds in front of a national audience.
The "adult" GOP would object, of course, on the grounds that these people are insignificant gadflies. That lie could be quickly exposed with poll results and concrete examples of their influence.

Very much no.
I agree that we do need to update common sense gun control issues, public mental health and a whole host of other problems. I think most people would agree with this. However, in situations like this we see the same old tired mantras. Activists wheel out their pet issues to accuse and assign blame (atheism, religion, wingnuts, moonbats, gun control, not enough guns, war on terror, big government, etc) in the hopes that some emotional response will sweep the country. It's not going to happen. Notice how everybody today is blaming the same people they were blaming yesterday? It's also the same people they'll be blaming for whatever goes wrong tomorrow. The NRA and GOP are a problem but they are not the problem. The real problem is our tendency towards easy answers the the desire to satisfy our emotional need to feed our preconceived pet causes. Nobody's thinking "outside the box", the boxes are the problem.

234 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:33:07pm

re: #231 watching you tiny alien kittens are

On a site where everyone uses sarc tags you invite misinterpretation by not using them.

"Surely he can't mean that, it must be sarcasm? Hmm...but he didn't use any sarc tags so maybe that means he does mean it?"

;)

Meh, I get it away with it more often than not. No biggie.

235 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:35:12pm

re: #232 ProMayaLiberal

There is an historic artillery group near where I live & they are part of the Civil War re-enactors. They have some cannons. I don't believe crazies could even use them.

236 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:36:10pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

The real problem is our tendency towards easy answers the the desire to satisfy our emotional need to feed our preconceived pet causes. Nobody's thinking "outside the box", the boxes are the problem.

And, in my opinion, firearms are one of the easiest answers of all. Which is, again in my opinion, their biggest problem.

Wanting easy answers and having easy answers readily available means, or so I think, big problems.

237 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:36:38pm

re: #235 Ojoe

No, it is something else. Hold on while I listen to the story to explain it.

238 CarleeCork  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:37:55pm

re: #230 William Barnett-Lewis

Uhm, to own a firearm that can actually fire that fast you have to pay between $5,000 & $100,000 for the fully automatic weapon, pay a $200 excise tax, have the approval of your local chief of police and have an ATF form approved by the federal government before you can take possession of that registered fully automatic firearm. That has been the case since 1934.

No semi-automatic that you can buy without going through those steps can fire that fast.

On top of that, I can fire a Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle at the speed of that legal semi-auto though it does only have a 10 round magazine.

Yeah, there are a whole lot of crazies out there but we are not helped by misunderstanding the details of these things. Simply freaking out only helps the NRA & others spread FUD.

Does that make it moral in your mind?

This country has gone crazy, religious nuts claiming to know the mind of god, dumb shits like you claiming second amendment rights to own weapons of mass destruction.

You're one of them.

239 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:38:05pm

I trimmed tomato plants in the greenhouse this afternoon in a hail storm. Very satisfying. Outside, my Russian Bananas look like they're going to produce a second crop this year. I'll probably start digging them up in a few weeks.

240 JAFO  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:39:36pm

8 rounds in 1 second. 8 rounds at 4 targets in 1.06 seconds. 6 rounds, reload, 6 rounds in 2.99 seconds.

241 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:39:47pm

re: #238 CarleeCork

Does that make it moral in your mind?

This country has gone crazy, religious nuts claiming to know the mind of god, dumb shits like you claiming second amendment rights to own weapons of mass destruction.

You're one of them.

If it makes you feel better to think that, so be it. I'd rather be trying to fix the nation instead.

242 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:40:30pm

Holy fucking shit. I was on the mountain skiing today and saw a facebook post about the shooting. I'm glad I wasn't at home otherwise I'd be sick from the coverage. I don't know what to say. What is there to say? You can't say anything. Gun rights people are already saying "Now is not the time to talk about gun control." WHEN IS THE RIGHT FUCKING TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL? I grew up with guns. I'm an avid hunter. My family still hunts. I posted a picture of my nephew's boar he shot last weekend here on LGF the other day. I'm not anti-gun. I am, however, anti-FUCKING EIGHTEEN CHILDREN AND NINE ADULTS GETTING KILLED IN A SCHOOL...we just had a shooting in a shopping mall in Oregon a few days ago...a few days before that, an NFL player kills his girlfriend and then himself. Each time wasn't "the right time" to start talking about gun control. What? Are gun advocates waiting for someone to save twenty seven people's lives by shooting them with an assault rifle? Give me a fucking break.

243 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:40:57pm

re: #175 Skip Intro

Well, if you're threatening me with a banning, go for it.

Oh hell, not at all. Not My Place. Not My Blog. That was an honest heads up about LGF and how someone unaware of the history here might misstep. Nothing more than that. Just an honest friendly minded heads up.

244 Bubblehead II  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:41:04pm

Good night Lizards. As for Todays tragedy , well let's say I am dismayed, but not surprised that it happened. The fear mongering over the last 20+ years has lead us to this and I fear much worse is to come.

May the Deity of your choice protect us all.

245 CarleeCork  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:41:40pm

re: #242 darthstar

Holy fucking shit. I was on the mountain skiing today and saw a facebook post about the shooting. I'm glad I wasn't at home otherwise I'd be sick from the coverage. I don't know what to say. What is there to say? You can't say anything. Gun rights people are already saying "Now is not the time to talk about gun control." WHEN IS THE RIGHT FUCKING TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL? I grew up with guns. I'm an avid hunter. My family still hunts. I posted a picture of my nephew's boar he shot last weekend here on LGF the other day. I'm not anti-gun. I am, however, anti-FUCKING EIGHTEEN CHILDREN AND NINE ADULTS GETTING KILLED IN A SCHOOL...we just had a shooting in a shopping mall in Oregon a few days ago...a few days before that, an NFL player kills his girlfriend and then himself. Each time wasn't "the right time" to start talking about gun control. What? Are gun advocates waiting for someone to save twenty seven people's lives by shooting them with an assault rifle? Give me a fucking break.

Correction, TWENTY children murdered.

246 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:42:39pm

re: #219 CarleeCork

There is NO reason for an ordinary citizen to own a weapon that can fire SIX fucking bullets per second.

This country has been taken over by crazies!

I don't think the military (ANY military) should be allowed to have high speed weapons. Put everybody back on guns that require a pump, bolt, or lever at the least. Then someone might be able to throw a fucking chair/stapler/book/solid object at the asshole between rounds.

247 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:42:59pm

re: #238 CarleeCork

A machine gun is not a weapon of mass destruction. And there are plenty of countries with lots of guns and much lower murder rates.

248 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:44:36pm

If teachers can talk to kids in school about gun violence, which this incident pretty much requires, then Bob Costas can talk about it during half-time.

249 BroncD  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:45:32pm

Mike Huckabee has actually run for President. That's terrifying.

250 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:46:20pm

Obviously the best response to this is to arm all of our teachers and aides while simultaneously breaking up their unions.

251 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:46:44pm

re: #232 ProMayaLiberal

Some weapons should be banned too.

There is no need for a civilian to own a .50 cal.

Not sure about the very obscure cannon loophole.

Hmmm, why should civilians be prohibited from owning .50 cal rifles?
Why stop at .50 cal? Why not ban the .577 Tyrranosaur, or the .600 Nitro Express?
How about a .460 Weatherby, .408 CheyTac or .338 Lapua?
7.62 or 5.56 NATO rifles a no- go?
.30-06 has laid a lot of enemy soldiers low, should civilians own a .30-06?
What criteria determines what a civilian can own/use?

252 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:46:49pm
253 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:46:52pm

re: #245 CarleeCork

Correction, TWENTY children murdered.

Oh, jesus fucking christ...I'm already crying. In the patrol room the other ski patrollers were saying, "How do you respond to and triage a mass casualty like that? Black tag, black tag, black tag..." I corrected him and said, "No. It's black tag, black tag, vomit, black tag, vomit..." He agreed. As first responders to recreational accidents, we see some unsettling shit - someone who can't feel or move their legs after a bad fall, someone with a femur sticking out of their ski pants with blood everywhere...not often, thankfully, but it happens - this goes beyond comprehension as far as how one deals with it from a rescue/responder perspective.

254 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:47:20pm

re: #249 BroncD

Mike Huckabee has actually run for President. That's terrifying.

Mike Huckabee would have been the nominee if Romney hadn't announced so early. That's scarier.

255 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:47:24pm

re: #243 Political Atheist

Oh hell, not at all. Not My Place. Not My Blog. That was an honest heads up about LGF and how someone unaware of the history here might misstep. Nothing more than that. Just an honest friendly minded heads up.

OK, point taken. I'm a little on edge today, to put it mildly.

256 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:48:52pm
257 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:49:02pm

re: #253 darthstar

Your experience was similar at my house.

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:50:27pm

re: #251 Capitalist Tool

Hmmm, why should civilians be prohibited from owning .50 cal rifles?
Why stop at .50 cal? Why not ban the .577 Tyrranosaur, or the .600 Nitro Express?
How about a .460 Weatherby, .408 CheyTac or .338 Lapua?
7.62 or 5.56 NATO rifles a no- go?
.30-06 has laid a lot of enemy soldiers low, should civilians own a .30-06?
What criteria determines what a civilian can own/use?

Quite a number of countries don't allow civilians to own weapons chambered for whatever their military uses.

259 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:50:42pm

re: #253 darthstar

The problem in this case appears to have been a kid getting control of his mom's guns. It's hard to prevent something like that, but it is very possible I think to require anyone with a gun to demonstrate that they have it secured and no one but them can get to it.

If you just have your handgun in your nightstand and your bullets in your closet, guess what, your kids can figure that shit out. You do that, you shouldn't be allowed to have a gun.

260 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:51:29pm

re: #255 Skip Intro

OK, point taken. I'm a little on edge today, to put it mildly.

As am I.

261 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:52:47pm

re: #237 ProMayaLiberal

Got to it. For the story, we are going back to July. A man and his family went on vacation, and got back on July 4th. This story occurred in Gardner, MA.

When gets back home, he noticed a half-dollar sized hole in his home, four feet from the ground.

Turns out, the oddball next door had built himself a ceremonial-fucking-cannon, and when it had a malfunction and exploded, it sprayed shrapnel throughout the neighborhood.

However, there is no laws against possessing a cannon (not defined as a firearm), and no identification is needed for possession of one.

Maybe its just me, but I would prefer my neighbor to not own a fucking Howitzer.

262 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:54:54pm

re: #258 William Barnett-Lewis

Quite a number of countries don't allow civilians to own weapons chambered for whatever their military uses.

Yes, and some (particularly in Europe) disallow any caliber which originated as a military caliber; altogether a poorly thought out plan- lots of posturing, pointless result.

263 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:55:00pm

re: #258 William Barnett-Lewis

There's a point when you shouldn't allowing civilians to have a certain caliber.

50 cals are used as Anti-Material guns. They can punch through light armored vehicles, and depending on the gun, from quite a distance. Don't think I am insane for say they may need heavy restrictions and/or banning from civilians.

264 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:01:24pm

re: #263 ProMayaLiberal

There's a point when you shouldn't allowing civilians to have a certain caliber.

50 cals are used as Anti-Material guns. They can punch through light armored vehicles, and depending on the gun, from quite a distance. Don't think I am insane for say they may need heavy restrictions and/or banning from civilians.

Again, there are many centerfire rifles which will penetrate an inch of steel, or other light armor, albeit at shorter distances than a .50 Browning.
What criteria should be used in a ban?

As William Barnett- Lewis pointed out: "Quite a number of countries don't allow civilians to own weapons chambered for whatever their military uses."

You can be sure that those countries implemented the ban with an eye to stopping the populace from using those guns against the government.

265 CarleeCork  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:02:07pm

What's it going to take? There are TWENTY children that will never grow up. Will we have meaningful gun control after FIFTY dead children, ONE HUNDRED dead children?

How many people have to die before people pull their heads out of their collective asses?

266 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:02:59pm

re: #259 Obdicut

The problem in this case appears to have been a kid getting control of his mom's guns.

The 'kid' was 20 years old. That's an adult. I know you weren't trying to be dismissive, but this isn't the time for explaining the behavior. This is the time for absorbing what has just happened, trying to get our own thoughts collected on the matter, and grieving for the victims and their families. Beyond that, I could give a flying fuck what this case appears to be.

267 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:03:32pm

re: #249 BroncD

Mike Huckabee has actually run for President. That's terrifying.

And he's considered the GOP front-runner for 2016 in some circles.

268 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:04:44pm

re: #261 ProMayaLiberal

However, there is no laws against possessing a cannon (not defined as a firearm), and no identification is needed for possession of one.

How many murders are committed using black powder muzzle loading cannon?

Perspective.

269 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:05:28pm

re: #267 Charles Johnson

And he's considered the GOP front-runner for 2016 in some circles.

Whichever TPGOP hopefull makes the best claim to stopping tightened gun controls will steal a march on the others.

270 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:06:01pm

re: #267 Charles Johnson

And he's considered the GOP front-runner for 2016 in some circles.

But only if his god gives him the go-ahead.

271 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:06:05pm

re: #267 Charles Johnson

And he's considered the GOP front-runner for 2016 in some circles.

Given the way the GOP has run since 76, I expect him to be Santorum's VP candidate. Falangist & Theocrat, what a lovely pair... retch.

272 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:06:59pm

re: #268 goddamnedfrank

How many murders are committed using black powder muzzle loading cannon?

Perspective.

What kid and his knucklehead buddies didn't try to build their own cannon(s)?

273 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:07:09pm

re: #266 darthstar

The 'kid' was 20 years old. That's an adult. I know you weren't trying to be dismissive, but this isn't the time for explaining the behavior.

I wasn't in the least bit trying to 'explain the behavior'.

It'd take a hell of a lot more restrictive gun control than we have now to keep that mother from owning those guns. We'd have to basically limit gun ownership to those who can prove a need-- and maybe not even then.

What we can do is say that she obviously didn't have the guns well-secured, so we could regulate that, and make sure that gun owners secure their weapons, and if they don't, take the guns away. Because a lot of murders-- like this one-- are committed by people using someone else's guns.

I don't think you're really reading my posts.

274 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:07:32pm

re: #265 CarleeCork

What's it going to take? There are TWENTY children that will never grow up. Will we have meaningful gun control after FIFTY dead children, ONE HUNDRED dead children?

How many people have to die before people pull their heads out of their collective asses?

Gun control? You can't even talk about limiting the size of ammo magazines without getting the crazies up in arms, and when the crazies speak the politicians listen.

Speaking of crazy, anybody know what Ted Nugent had to say today?

275 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:07:34pm

re: #267 Charles Johnson

And he's considered the GOP front-runner for 2016 in some circles.

It's the hair oil that does it for me.

276 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:08:31pm

re: #268 goddamnedfrank

I would like preempt a nut losing his damn mind and deciding to start a one-man war against the neighbors by shelling homes.

277 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:13:29pm

Worth a read:

Adam Gopnik: Newtown and the Madness of Guns

...In America alone, gun massacres, most often of children, happen with hideous regularity, and they happen with hideous regularity because guns are hideously and regularly available.

The people who fight and lobby and legislate to make guns regularly available are complicit in the murder of those children. They have made a clear moral choice: that the comfort and emotional reassurance they take from the possession of guns, placed in the balance even against the routine murder of innocent children, is of supreme value. Whatever satisfaction gun owners take from their guns—we know for certain that there is no prudential value in them—is more important than children’s lives. Give them credit: life is making moral choices, and that’s a moral choice, clearly made.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

278 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:17:55pm
279 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:18:02pm

re: #273 Obdicut

I wasn't in the least bit trying to 'explain the behavior'.

It'd take a hell of a lot more restrictive gun control than we have now to keep that mother from owning those guns. We'd have to basically limit gun ownership to those who can prove a need-- and maybe not even then.

What we can do is say that she obviously didn't have the guns well-secured, so we could regulate that, and make sure that gun owners secure their weapons, and if they don't, take the guns away. Because a lot of murders-- like this one-- are committed by people using someone else's guns.

I don't think you're really reading my posts.

Yes, I was reacting to your calling him a 'kid'...Yes, he killed his mother...tragic. He should have felt guilty enough after that to kill himself. Going to the school where she worked however, goes way beyond 'getting mom's gun'...This is a time for sitting back and waiting for the information to come to the surface. Our armchair analyses are meaningless at this point. And that's my point.

280 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:19:07pm

re: #278 jaunte

Michigan approves concealed weapons in schools, churches

Did Snyder sign it with a doodle of a middle finger?

281 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:22:03pm

re: #274 Skip Intro

Gun control? You can't even talk about limiting the size of ammo magazines without getting the crazies up in arms, and when the crazies speak the politicians listen.

Speaking of crazy, anybody know what Ted Nugent had to say today?

That's because any type of regulation is seen as a gateway to further restrictions and eventual loss of the right to bear arms. That's what will be spun out by the NRA to elicit more donations.

I already spoke to one of the gun-nutters in my family. They heard about this story and the first fucking thing out of their mouth; "great, now they're going to try to ban more guns." Not a damn thing about those kids. It's always something else. It's the same thing with most other people. They have a massive list of excuses and they're going to trot out each one, especially since he's white. If it was any other ethnic group, they wouldn't get the 'excuse treatment,' but since he's white, well, video games, atheism, drugs, etc. etc.

And fuck Nugent.

282 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:24:02pm

re: #278 jaunte

Michigan approves concealed weapons in schools, churches

As Charlie Pierce adroitly stated, "Michissippi."

283 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:24:12pm

re: #276 ProMayaLiberal

I would like preempt a nut losing his damn mind and deciding to start a one-man war against the neighbors by shelling homes.

Shells are explosives, destructive devices, i.e. already illegal. Your concern is kind of ridiculous. An elite full 12 man naval gun crew might be able to fire their 24 pounder three times in five minutes.

Notwithstanding your fears of the highly improbable, handguns are the problem.

284 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:24:22pm

re: #274 Skip Intro

Speaking of crazy, anybody know what Ted Nugent had to say today?

Crazy is giving a rat's ass what Ted Nugent has to say.

285 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:24:47pm

re: #281 Ghost of Tom Joad

And fuck Nugent.

Word.

286 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:25:17pm

Accidentally posted this in the FNMusic thread...damn multi-tabbing.

287 CarleeCork  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:26:08pm

re: #272 Capitalist Tool

What kid and his knucklehead buddies didn't try to build their own cannon(s)?

While that statement is true, they weren't doing it to murder other humans.

288 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 6:35:48pm

re: #279 darthstar

Yes, I was reacting to your calling him a 'kid'..

He's her kid. Whatever, dude. Her child. The word is hardly important.

.Yes, he killed his mother...tragic. He should have felt guilty enough after that to kill himself. Going to the school where she worked however, goes way beyond 'getting mom's gun'...This is a time for sitting back and waiting for the information to come to the surface. Our armchair analyses are meaningless at this point. And that's my point.

No freaking clue what you're talking about. I'm saying people with guns should be responsible for where those guns are at any time, and that we shouldn't let people have guns that can't keep them safe. Have no clue how that is 'armchair analysis.'.

289 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:58:03pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

Try listening to his show for even just a half-hour: 2/3rds of the time it'll be nothing but advertising to survivalist product producrers. And when he actually does speak, most of the stuff he claims is the truth ('cuz you can look it up on Google and see its high page-rank) is nothing more than taking one phrase of a report/study and amplifying the outrageous part of the precis when in reality the thing they're hot-and-bothered about isn't even in play.

Worse still is that people will believe it. As Idreis Shah stated in "Seeker After Truth" (pg. 111:112):

People really are as stupid as the Sufi's make out. Soceity works as well as it does because not everyone is stupid all the time.

...

And may I ask you a question? If people were not as stupid as they are made out to be, would they tolerate the kinds of individuals and organzations which exploit them? Who votes for the lying and improbable politiciians, who, remember, actually rule over so many of us?

290 Flavia  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:30pm

re: #181 Obdicut

I want to have a kid in a year. This is the world I'm going to bring that kid into. One where people just massacre each other, in the country with one of the highest standards of living that's ever been seen.

It gives me pause, it really does. To throw an innocent into this world really is an ambivalent thing.

Don't NOT have one just because of this - maybe YOUR child will help fix things!

(Oh, & a word to all those trying to trash the "Old Testament": never read Torah without Talmud. It generally ends up leading to the sort of crap I've sen here tonight.)

291 Dr. Matt  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:14:41am

Huckster can eat a bag of dicks.

292 Destro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:58am

re: #149 Charles Johnson

By the way, we had major incoming links from both Reddit.com and Fark.com today:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And I'm really glad to report that all that work redesigning the database code for the new servers paid off. Sailed through all the surges without even slowing down as far as I could tell. No DB connection errors at all.

You're welcome.

293 Destro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:39:24am

re: #174 Obdicut

That is way over the line. Destro is an obvious and often spectacularly poor attention-seeking shit-stirrer, but he hasn't said anything close to what Geller has or done what she's done.

That is incorrect. I am an amazingly awesome attention-seeking shit-stirrer.


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MichaelJ
COMFORTABLY NUMB - Peahi Nov 12 on Vimeo
Channel angle of the Nov 12th swell at Peahi.

1 week, 2 days ago
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Romantic Heretic
Money Makes Us Less Rational
Here's an interesting article on scientific studies that demonstrate how rationality and empathy break down is the presence of large amounts of money.

1 week, 4 days ago
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 Frank says:

You've got to be digging it while it's happening
'cause it just might be a one shot deal -- From Waka/Jawaka