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Harvard School of Public Health: More Guns = More Homicide

An unsurprising correlation
Crime • Views: 25,335

Some facts from the Harvard School of Public Health about the correlation between gun availability and homicides: Homicide - Firearms Research - Harvard Injury Control Research Center - Harvard School of Public Health.

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries.  Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40. 

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s.  We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide.  This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide. 

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

More:
Twelve Facts About Guns and Mass Shootings in the United States
The Geography of U.S. Gun Violence - Neighborhoods - the Atlantic Cities

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514 comments

1 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:33am

I grew up in gun owning and toting Fairbanks, Alaska where the chance of a teen getting shot to death or committing suicide with a gun was much higher per capita than high urban crime areas in the lower 48. I got out alive, but some of my friends didn't.

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:33am
3 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:44:06am

It is not one item that caused this awful event. There were several other factors. I forgot where I read it the shooter was under a lot of pressure to "produce good grades." Yes guns did play a part but it was not everything.

4 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:44:22am

Bad-a-bing.

Boom.

5 gwangung  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:48:34am

re: #3 PhillyPretzel

It is not one item that caused this awful event. There were several other factors. I forgot where I read it the shooter was under a lot of pressure to "produce good grades." Yes guns did play a part but it was not everything.

Um, doesn't this miss the point?

Yes, there were many factors, but lethality is heightened by guns.

6 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:48:54am

This isn't just homicide either - where there are more guns suicide rates climb too.

7 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:49:23am

Oh, you and you stupid Science!

////

8 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:50:42am

What do the elitists in their ivory towers know about anything.

9 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:05am

What makes America’s gun culture totally unique in the world, in four charts

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

10 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:54:15am

re: #5 gwangung

Um, doesn't this miss the point?

Yes, there were many factors, but lethality is heightened by guns.

I don't think it misses the point at all. If you could wave a magic wand and change nothing else, taking away all the guns and leaving all the dangerous mentally unhealthy people untouched might reduce the body count in the near term, but it wouldn't really solve the underlying problem. The only thing that kept this guy from building bombs instead of using his mother's guns is the fact that he didn't see himself as the kind of person who builds bombs. Find out why he did see himself as the kind of person who goes on a shooting rampage. Assume he was definitely going to kill someone regardless. Why did he choose one method over another? The answer is not a trivial detail. I think it's key to understanding why these things happen.

11 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:55:16am

Gun crime statistics by US state: latest data

How bad is gun crime in the US? The latest data from the FBI's uniform crime reports is out and it provides a fascinating picture of the use of firearms in crimes across America.

At the beginning of the year the shooting spree in Tucson, Arizona, that targeted congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords left six dead, including a nine-year-old child. But since then, the issue has been given scant attention.

However, the figures themselves are astounding for Brits used to around 600 murders per year. In 2010 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms.

The FBI crime statistics are based on reports to FBI bureau and local law enforcement. The figures are not complete - there are no stats for Florida on firearm murders and the data for Illinois is "incomplete". But even so it provides a detailed picture of attacks by state.

12 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:56:44am

re: #10 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

The problem with what you are trying to say here is that it's absolutely belied by the Harvard studies above. Take away the guns and murder rates, suicide rates will DECREASE.

13 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:56:50am

Obama went to Harvard, this "study" is just another point in his plot to disarm us all before herding us into FEMA reeducation camps!

/

14 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:59:11am

Lots of people think they can rationally handle having a gun in the house all the way up until the moment they pull the trigger and put a bullet through their brain. I won't have one in the house not because I consider myself unstable, but because I have relatives and friends who've had emotional and mental issues in their past.

15 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:00:59pm

If I still lived in Arizona I would probably own a pistol loaded with snake shot for hiking in the desert. And for no other purpose.

16 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:02:39pm

re: #14 Randall Gross

Lots of people think they can rationally handle having a gun in the house all the way up until the moment they pull the trigger and put a bullet through their brain. I won't have one in the house not because I consider myself unstable, but because I have relatives and friends who've had emotional and mental issues in their past.

17 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:03:21pm

re: #16 A Man for all Seasons

whoops! didn't mean to quote you

18 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:04:13pm

re: #11 researchok

Gun crime statistics by US state: latest data

What happened with Michigan?

19 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:05:01pm

re: #17 A Man for all Seasons

Np

20 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:05:28pm

Right to work is already causing growth!!

//
re: #18 Gus

What happened with Michigan?

21 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:06:54pm

re: #15 Sol Berdinowitz

If I still lived in Arizona I would probably own a pistol loaded with snake shot for hiking in the desert. And for no other purpose.

When I lived in a cabin in the sticks off of the Old Nenana highway in Alaska I had a gun as well. It was for squirrels and bears.

22 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:07:55pm

re: #12 Randall Gross

Randall, let me lay Deivl's Advocate for a moment:

Is finding and taking away 300 million guns is a realistic option?

And how do we keep guns from being smuggled in- we can't control illegal weed importation!

Of the 300 million plus guns, how many have been used in mass shootings in last century- 100? 300? 1000?

Don't those numbers describe outliers?

If tragic deaths are a priority, ought we not prioritize and deal with deaths caused by vehicles and by drunk drivers? Those deaths total almost 33,000 with 10,200 by way of drunk driver- and these numbers represent a decline in vehicle related deathsdeaths.

Don't get me wrong- I do believe we need far stricter gun laws, background checks, cooling off periods, loopholes shut, etc., but in the end I believe mental health issues and culture need to be addressed.

23 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:08:23pm

re: #18 Gus

Right to shoot state.

//

24 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:09:10pm

Uh oh. Here we go again.

Catherine Urso, of Newtown, said her college-age son knew the killer. “He just said he was very thin, very remote and was one of the goths,” she said.

25 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:09:38pm

re: #22 researchok

If tragic deaths are a priority, ought we not prioritize and deal with deaths caused by vehicles and by drunk drivers?

Facepalm.

26 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:09:45pm

re: #14 Randall Gross

THAT is a cogent policy that needs to be considered by gun owners and potential gun owners.

27 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:09:47pm

re: #22 researchok


I don't think many people are advocating confiscation or revocation of the right to bear arms. It is just the right to access that has to be more closely regulated.

28 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:10:23pm

re: #14 Randall Gross

Lots of people think they can rationally handle having a gun in the house all the way up until the moment they pull the trigger and put a bullet through their brain. I won't have one in the house not because I consider myself unstable, but because I have relatives and friends who've had emotional and mental issues in their past.

I couldn't trust myself to shoot another human being, even if it was to save my own life.

29 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:10:34pm

Gun control legislation would truly push the wingnuts over the edge.

30 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:10:36pm

re: #22 researchok

You can play Devil's advocate too...

I'm honestly not saying take away the guns. I'm saying control them better, reduce the number, you can improve things. We take away drunk drivers licenses and incarcerate them for example. We don't do that for drunk shooters.

31 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:10:53pm

re: #24 Gus

Uh oh. Here we go again.

Not this shit again.

32 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:11:35pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

Why?

As I noted, I am in favor of stricter gun laws- strongly so- but in discussing these kinds of tragedies- certainly in the context of culture, it seems to me addressing these issues would make dealing with gun culture much easier.

33 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:12:12pm

re: #22 researchok

If tragic deaths are a priority, ought we not prioritize and deal with deaths caused by vehicles and by drunk drivers? Those deaths total almost 33,000 with 10,200 by way of drunk driver- and these numbers represent a decline in vehicle related deathsdeaths.

Cars are a necessity in the modern society. Furthermore, they require licensing and regulation.

Civilian guns serve no purpose save entertainment.

34 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:12:18pm

re: #31 Targetpractice

Not this shit again.

Search goth #tcot. Give it time and it'll grow.

35 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:12:42pm

re: #27 Sol Berdinowitz

I agree- but how does that keep the bad guys from doing what they have to do get a gun?

I don't have any good answers here but the more questions we ask, the better.

36 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:12:57pm

re: #32 researchok

Why?

As I noted, I am in favor of stricter gun laws- strongly so- but in discussing these kinds of tragedies- certainly in the context of culture, it seems to me addressing these issues would make dealing with gun culture much easier.

No, it just shifts the focus. It's something that we've been doing for years now, telling ourselves "This guy was crazy, the gun wasn't at fault." The fact that the crazy guy was able to get his hands on an arsenal is always treated as a secondary issue, something we can get around to once we address the mental health one.

37 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:13:00pm

re: #28 Targetpractice

I couldn't trust myself to shoot another human being, even if it was to save my own life.

That was one of the things learned in the US Army, a lot of soldiers just could not bring themselves to shoot at people, they would fire in the general direction as ordered, but not take aim at human targets.

38 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:13:20pm

re: #33 Renaissance_Man

True- but crimes like these do not usually happen at the hands of licensed owners.

39 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:13:48pm

I don't know why it's necessary to point this out, but cars and guns are not even remotely equivalent. I'm sure you can think of reasons why this is so.

40 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:14:51pm

Better yet goth newtown.

41 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:15:55pm

re: #32 researchok

Why?

Mainly, it's a false dichotomy. we don't have to choose between dealing with drunk drivers and dealing with gun crime.

42 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:15:57pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

I don't know why it's necessary to point this out, but cars and guns are not even remotely equivalent. I'm sure you can think of reasons why this is so.

I'll point one out: false equivalencies are easy to make and if couched properly, make the the arguer sound logical.

43 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:16:08pm

re: #36 Targetpractice

OK, but what is the focus- all unnecessary deaths or just those by guns?

I am not advocating we ought not deal with guns- we need to - but in whaqtr context?

Like I said, I don't have all the answers but I do know until we deal with the culture these tragedies will repeat themselves.

44 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:16:25pm

re: #33 Renaissance_Man

A very small sector of people have a legitimate need for guns for self-defense.

45 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:35pm
46 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:57pm

re: #43 researchok

OK, but what is the focus- all unnecessary deaths or just those by guns?

I am not advocating we ought not deal with guns- we need to - but in whaqtr context?

Like I said, I don't have all the answers but I do know until we deal with the culture these tragedies will repeat themselves.

You're right, we can deal with the gun culture. First part of it is dealing with the argument that gun ownership is an inalienable right. Such as requiring persons applying for a gun license to demonstrate a need for it. Or to require that the applicant undergo a psych eval as well as a criminal background check. And setting a limit on the number of guns a person may own at any one time.

47 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:20:26pm

re: #44 Obdicut

A very small sector of people have a legitimate need for guns for self-defense.

They passed open carry in Oklahoma a couple months back. So I could put on Camo and strap on a gun to walk Winston...Now if you saw me..You wouldn't know if I was walking a dog or heading next store to the OU campus to kill students..Weird concept..open carry.. welcome back to the wild west

48 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:20:51pm

Right wingers on Twitter started up with the "ban cars" talking point almost instantly after the shootings yesterday.

49 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:21:02pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

Twitter Search - Ban Cars

"ban swimming pools" yields similarly idiotic results.

50 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:21:26pm

re: #44 Obdicut

A very small sector of people have a legitimate need for guns for self-defense.

Who are these people and why are they not assaulted or slaughtered like cattle in other First World nations where they are, presumably, defenceless?

51 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:21:56pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

I don't know why it's necessary to point this out, but cars and guns are not even remotely equivalent. I'm sure you can think of reasons why this is so.

there is the point that cars are regulated...through traffic lights, stop signs, one-way streets, etc. Without them, we would have chaos mayhem on our hands

52 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:22:03pm

How about we fucking revisit the Second Amendment? It was written at a time when owning a gun meant the difference between your family eating or starving to death; and when there was a chance citizens could actually stand up to the government.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but you generally don't need to go in heavy at the Shoprite to buy groceries these days. Plus, if we ever turn into a dictatorship, your private arsenal won't mean shit.

53 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:22:10pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

I don't know why it's necessary to point this out, but cars and guns are not even remotely equivalent. I'm sure you can think of reasons why this is so.

Anyone who makes that case is too stupid to be allowed access to either one.

54 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:22:52pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

Guns and cars are different, of course.

But when a drunk gets into a car the potential fort lethality is just as great,

Clearly, a nut job intended on killing is different than some drunken idiot getting into a car.

To the victims however, there is no fine distinction.

Again, I'm not arguing against stricter gun laws, but I do believe a thoughtful discussion will produce better laws.

But there is a distinction between the best gun laws we might enacted the criminals who will do anything to circumvent those laws.

That's why I strongly believe in emptying prisons filled with 'criminals' who have violated idiotic drug laws and if necessary fill them with people who use guns, loaded or unloaded or facsimiles of guns in the commission of a crime.

55 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:23:12pm

re: #52 Mattand

How about we fucking revisit the Second Amendment? It was written at a time when owning a gun meant the difference between your family eating or starving to death; and when there was a chance citizens could actually stand up to the government.

Let us get back to the original intent of the Founding Fathers: you have the right to own a muzzle-loading musket and as much powder as you can fit in your horn...

56 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:23:48pm

re: #52 Mattand

How about we fucking revisit the Second Amendment? It was written at a time when owning a gun meant the difference between your family eating or starving to death; and when there was a chance citizens could actually stand up to the government.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but you generally don't need to go in heavy at the Shoprite to buy groceries these days. Plus, if we ever turn into a dictatorship, your private arsenal won't mean shit.

It was also written when the standard fire arm was a black powder muzzle loader where you might be able to fire off a 3-4 shot a minute if you were good.

57 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:23:58pm

re: #52 Mattand

How about we fucking revisit the Second Amendment? It was written at a time when owning a gun meant the difference between your family eating or starving to death; and when there was a chance citizens could actually stand up to the government.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but you generally don't need to go in heavy at the Shoprite to buy groceries these days. Plus, if we ever turn into a dictatorship, your private arsenal won't mean shit.

It's the Red Dawn fantasy. You know, the scrappy resistance fighters who will win against the tyrannical government through guerrilla warfare and sheer determination.

Nobody ever seems to point out that, depending upon how optimistic you are, all the kids died at the end of that movie.

58 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:24:03pm

People are frightened of their own shadow. I basically lived in poor, violent prone areas all my life, until very recently. Had my car stolen, multiple break ins, 2 years ago I had a home invasion that must have starred 3 or 4 assholes. I've been jumped by gang members etc. I don't carry a gun, nor do I want to. Pulling out a gun in any situation involving other people makes you very liable, even for things that may be out of your control. I would never give a gun to my wife to carry. We target practice with family guns up at the farm when the fancy strikes us.

59 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:24:11pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

This I absolutely agree with.

Freedom does start and end with the Second Amendment as the gun lobby would have you believe.

60 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:24:36pm

re: #54 researchok

Guns and cars are different, of course.

Yes.

Yes, they are.

61 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:24:51pm

re: #49 bratwurst

Who said anything about banning cars?

62 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:10pm

School of Public Health: More Guns =

i am so painfully familiar with what would happen next if you confronted wingnuts with this

the credibility of the messenger would immediately be attacked

63 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:17pm

re: #56 Kragar

It was also written when the standard fire arm was a black powder muzzle loader where you might be able to fire off a 3-4 shot a minute if you were good.

A smoothbore black powder muzzle loader, meaning you weren't accurate for more than a couple hundred meters.

64 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:21pm

Statistics clearly demonstrate that if you own a gun that you are in more danger of death from it than from criminals unless you live in an excessively high crime district. The someone who pulls the trigger might be you, might be a relative, a child, or a criminal, but.... owning the gun itself is a great danger and not a measure of safety as advertised by the gun industry.

65 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:35pm

re: #50 Renaissance_Man

Who are these people and why are they not assaulted or slaughtered like cattle in other First World nations where they are, presumably, defenceless?

Some are attacked even in other countries. Some are the rare cases that even in Europe get shot at, and in Europe are allowed to carry weapons in many countries, like diamond merchants.

Otherwise, the reason may be, ironically, that the US has a lot more guns so more people need guns to defend themselves from all the guns.

66 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:54pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

You're right, we can deal with the gun culture. First part of it is dealing with the argument that gun ownership is an inalienable right. Such as requiring persons applying for a gun license to demonstrate a need for it. Or to require that the applicant undergo a psych eval as well as a criminal background check. And setting a limit on the number of guns a person may own at any one time.

None of which will pass.

Now, as I asked in the last thread, can we talk about things that can might be passed?

Mandatory training in High School?
Making real time updates to NICS status happen? Funding finally?
Working to change public perception of mental illness so people seek help?
Single payer health & mental health care?
Working to change gun culture itself?
Perhaps start with licensing new gun owners in a decade? Without tying the license to what is owned?
A national ID that serves as voter registration, passport, drivers & firearms license? The latter two requiring drivers ed & firearms ed?

These might pass and are better things to concentrate on.

67 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:26:10pm

The relative ineffectiveness of being armed to resist attack is hinted at in studies like this one:

A new CDC study, Gang Homicides — Five U.S. Cities, 2003–2008, is the first to compare gang homicides to other types of homicide using city-level data from the CDC’s National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS). This report analyzed 2003-2008 data from large cities within 17 NVDRS states. Of those, five cities met the criteria for having high levels of gang homicide: Los Angeles, California; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Long Beach, California; Oakland, California; and Newark, New Jersey.

The study, which appears in the January 27, 2012 online edition of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), found more than 90 percent of gang homicide victims were male, victims were more likely to be young, and 92-96 percent of gang homicides involved firearms. Findings also show gang homicides usually did not result from other crimes in progress or bystander deaths; instead, they involved youth responding to gang-related conflict.
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]

68 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:26:12pm

re: #54 researchok

Drunk drivers are just a red herring, though. We don't have to choose between dealing with them and guns, they have no bearing on the subject other than distraction and muddling the issue.

69 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:26:53pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

It's the Red Dawn fantasy. You know, the scrappy resistance fighters who will win against the tyrannical government through guerrilla warfare and sheer determination.

Nobody ever seems to point out that, depending upon how optimistic you are, all the kids died at the end of that movie.

5 Reasons 'Red Dawn' Is Secretly a Subversive Anti-War Film

Kids who grew up in the Reagan era did monthly "duck and cover" nuclear war drills in the classroom. A movie about them and their classmates fighting the Russians wasn't science fiction -- it's what they fully expected to be doing in a few years. And Red Dawn embodied Reagan's "we'll kill the commies with our awesomeness" spirit better than any movie except maybe Rocky IV (which is why National Review ranked it among the best conservative films).

That is, as long as you don't think about it too hard. If you dig into the details of this action epic you find a pretty damning indictment of Reagan, the U.S. military and even America itself. In fact, it might be the most anti-American movie made outside of the Middle East.

70 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:27:29pm

re: #41 Obdicut

Who said we have to choose?

Certainly not I.

71 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:27:33pm

re: #66 William Barnett-Lewis

None of which will pass.

Now, as I asked in the last thread, can we talk about things that can might be passed?

Mandatory training in High School?
Making real time updates to NICS status happen? Funding finally?
Working to change public perception of mental illness so people seek help?
Single payer health & mental health care?
Working to change gun culture itself?
Perhaps start with licensing new gun owners in a decade? Without tying the license to what is owned?
A national ID that serves as voter registration, passport, drivers & firearms license? The latter two requiring drivers ed & firearms ed?

These might pass and are better things to concentrate on.

The operative word there being "might," as in if they were ever seriously considered. But they won't be, because each one has one or more special interest groups who will fight tooth and nail against them. Single payer alone is pretty much a non-starter in the present political environment.

72 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:28:25pm

re: #70 researchok

Who said we have to choose?

Certainly not I.

Then your comment has no bearing on the conversation at all, and is just a red herring.

73 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:28:45pm

re: #61 researchok

Who said anything about banning cars?

Where in my noting that idiots on twitter equate gun control with banning swimming pools did you get your question?

74 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:29:23pm

re: #65 Obdicut

Otherwise, the reason may be, ironically, that the US has a lot more guns so more people need guns to defend themselves from all the guns.

Which returns us to the uniquely American fantasy of ordinary civilians engaging in gun battles to protect themselves or others. A fantasy which all the available data suggests happens so infrequently as to be almost apocryphal, and is certainly a fart in a hurricane compared to the innumerable casualties of the culture of civilian gun ownership and fetishisation.

75 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:29:33pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Right- there is no connection with all unnecessary deaths.

76 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:30:24pm

re: #75 researchok

Right- there is no connection with all unnecessary deaths.

Whatever, dude. It's a red herring, it is not relevant to the discussion of what we can do about preventing gun deaths in the US. It is a different problem.

77 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:32:10pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

It's the Red Dawn fantasy. You know, the scrappy resistance fighters who will win against the tyrannical government through guerrilla warfare and sheer determination.

Nobody ever seems to point out that, depending upon how optimistic you are, all the kids died at the end of that movie.

Can't have a bullshit militaristic propaganda film without a few martyrs.

78 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:32:17pm

re: #76 Obdicut

Yes it is a different problem.

A different related problem,

79 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:32:36pm

re: #52 Mattand

How about we fucking revisit the Second Amendment? It was written at a time when owning a gun meant the difference between your family eating or starving to death; and when there was a chance citizens could actually stand up to the government.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but you generally don't need to go in heavy at the Shoprite to buy groceries these days. Plus, if we ever turn into a dictatorship, your private arsenal won't mean shit.

That's a huge losing tactic. Removing something, especially from the bill of rights, just ain't gonna happen and proposing it only serves to justify the paranoid fears that people want to take away guns and rights. We have this debate every couple of years in this country and it always ends up (more or less) the same. I'd like to see something done and the only way to accomplish that is to be smart about it and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

80 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:32:43pm

re: #73 bratwurst

idiots on twitter equate gun control with banning swimming pools

Whole lotta excluded middle goin on.

81 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:32:47pm

re: #78 researchok

Nope. It's not related. Except in the most disappear-up-your-own-asshole metaphysical terms.

82 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:32:57pm

As far as I interpret it, the Second Amendment was about allowing states to form their won militias independent of the central government.

I can accept the SCOTUS decision that gun ownership is a personal right independent of militia membership, but we must not overlook the "well regulated" aspect of the Amendment.

But we do, out of NRA paranioa and delusional fantasies about government takeovers.

83 krypto  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:33:27pm

Harvard? They're run by The Libs!

I'm joking, but you know that WILL be the reaction from the many of the followers of the far right.

84 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:34:26pm

Bratwurst, I did find (I believe) a reference to the paper I saw bur no direct link to it.

I did email a friend who might know where to find that so whenI get a response I'll post it for you.

85 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:34:38pm

My furnace crapped out. Repair guy can't get parts until Monday. Although it's an inconvenience I have plenty of firewood. I haven't slept my the fire in quite some time. It'll be kinda nice.

86 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:35:10pm

When people in die in motor vehicle accidents it's not done as of a result of malice.

87 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:35:55pm

re: #86 Gus

When people in die in motor vehicle accidents it's not done as of a result of malice.

not as often as is the case with guns, no.

88 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:13pm

re: #81 Obdicut

LOLOL

Right- we're only concerned with some health but not all. Does the word holistic mean anything to you?

Right.

You really don't see an overall connection? Seriously

89 biorabbi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:18pm

It seems to me a letter from a physician attesting to one's stable mental health might help. As a neurologist, I have to write such letters for folks with epilepsy to drive if they've been seizure free for one year. The pressure is one me as I cannot lie to "help someone out" as the medical record of seizure activity puts the onus on me and my veracity.

Same true for gun control. If there is a well documented record of bipolar disorder, mild autism, severe mood instability, doctors would be very reluctant to "sign off" on gun ownership. This would not, however, have an effect in this case as the guy's mother apparently bought the guns. Still, if restrictions could be placed on driving as a privilege, why can't gun ownership also be treated as a privilege? Proof of good mental health, taking a course on gun safety, and the like.

On the larger point of gun control, the Corner made a depressing point today or yesterday against gun control and it's a point the Michael Moore documentary does not address either. Why now? What is it about our culture that leads to so many more of these attacks? I'm not talking about the issue of God in school, but is violence increasing because of the media? computer games? decline of morality? increase in mental illness? I don't claim to have the answers. I have an increasingly open mind on gun control, but I fear that violence represents some change/decline in our culture? I watched my son's gaming idiocy the other day and it was nonstop shoot and kill stuff with loud background music; whatever happened to Gershwin and monopoly?

90 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:20pm

re: #84 researchok

Bratwurst, I did find (I believe) a reference to the paper I saw bur no direct link to it.

I did email a friend who might know where to find that so whenI get a response I'll post it for you.

That's not a reference to a paper. It's a completely unsupported claim with no references whatsoever.

See, you can tell because it doesn't reference a paper.

91 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:21pm

From Dailypaul.com

AJ Video: The Fix Is In! They're Coming For Our Guns! Linked from Drudge

Published on Dec 14, 2012
(An Info Wars link)... This NWO banker minion (talking about President Obama of course) is desperate to disarm the American people and complete their journey into slavery.

92 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:28pm

re: #84 researchok

Bratwurst, I did find (I believe) a reference to the paper I saw bur no direct link to it.

I did email a friend who might know where to find that so whenI get a response I'll post it for you.

A message board posting is not really more solid than your assertion that you read it yourself, but I will be patient in awaiting your source.

93 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:51pm

re: #88 researchok

The word holistic means everything to me.

And I'm done with this really fucking stupid academic dunderheaded distraction.

94 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:36:58pm

re: #91 Amory Blaine

Yeah. It's a total Red Dawn style fantasy.

95 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:37:26pm

re: #86 Gus

Not by deliberate or active malice- but when a drunk gets into a car, he/she is guilty of passive malice.

96 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:39:55pm

re: #90 Obdicut

I said I had no link. I swaid I saw a reference to what I believed might be a reference, ertc.

Interesting how you attempt to manipulate what I said.

Patterns, you know?

97 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:40:08pm

re: #95 researchok

Not by deliberate or active malice- but when a drunk gets into a car, he/she is guilty of passive malice.

I believe that falls under grossly negligent and recklessly endangering behavior.

98 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:40:27pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

That's a huge losing tactic. Removing something, especially from the bill of rights, just ain't gonna happen and proposing it only serves to justify the paranoid fears that people want to take away guns and rights. We have this debate every couple of years in this country and it always ends up (more or less) the same. I'd like to see something done and the only way to accomplish that is to be smart about it and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

We've adjusted the Constitution in the past in order to correct for its mistakes (I'm looking at you, slavery and women not being allowed to vote.) I see no reason for the 2nd Amendment to be the sacred cow that it is for most people.

99 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:40:45pm

re: #97 Sol Berdinowitz

That too, for sure.

100 dragonfire1981  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:40:57pm

re: #82 Sol Berdinowitz

As far as I interpret it, the Second Amendment was about allowing states to form their won militias independent of the central government.

I can accept the SCOTUS decision that gun ownership is a personal right independent of militia membership, but we must not overlook the "well regulated" aspect of the Amendment.

But we do, out of NRA paranioa and delusional fantasies about government takeovers.

And this is it right here. The authors of second amendment created it for a world in which many areas were still "frontiers" with little to no organized law enforcement. This was also a time when large bustling cities were NOT common and neighbors were often separate by many acres, if not many miles. In a world like that, the second amendment MAKES SENSE.

Also, the "well regulated" language seems to suggest that even that founders of America knew darned well the dangers associated with guns. They didn't put that in there just because, they did it to protect people.

101 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:41:28pm

Instapundit retweets paranoid Alex Jones rant.

102 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:42:33pm

re: #95 researchok

Not by deliberate or active malice- but when a drunk gets into a car, he/she is guilty of passive malice.

But a car wasn't designed to kill people. A drunk can kill people with most any object or act. A drunk can throw a friend down the stairs and kill him all the while thinking it was a funny joke.

103 Kid A  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:42:37pm

I thought Charles had a link on the homepage to LGF Classics. Most popular pages like the Dan Rather article from 2004, etc. Can anyone help me here? Thanks!

104 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:43:29pm

270 million guns, our population is 314 million and just over half of that population is adult. So there's a gun + some for every single adult in the US.

105 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:43:54pm
106 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:44:08pm

Gunman dead, 3 injured in Alabama hospital shooting

A gunman opened fire on a police officer and two hospital employees at St. Vincent’s Hospital in Birmingham, Alabama early Saturday morning. According to WAFF, News 48, the incident took place at about 4:00 a.m. on the hospital’s fifth floor.

Birmingham Police Department spokesperson Sgt. Johnny Williams told WAFF that the gunman positioned himself in a hallway and shot at the officer and the hospital staff members as they stepped out of an elevator. Another police officer reportedly came around the corner, alerted by the noise, and fatally shot the gunman.

107 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:44:28pm

re: #91 Amory Blaine

From Dailypaul.com

AJ Video: The Fix Is In! They're Coming For Our Guns! Linked from Drudge

Yeah I didn't want to link an Alex Jones video here.

108 dragonfire1981  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:44:36pm

Oh and about the guns vs. cars thing, a few questions:

- How often in a major action movie does the hero take out the bad guys by running them over?

- Only one major video game series (Grand Theft Auto) puts a heavy focus on vehicular assaults. Contrast that with how many shooting games are out there.

- When's the last time you heard a rapper rap about killing someone with his car?

Perception matters folks. You can try to deny it, but American culture glorifies guns.

109 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:44:48pm

re: #102 Gus

All true- but a hunting rifle isn't designed to kill people.

And it wouldn't cross the mind of the vast majority of hunters/gun owners to kill anyone, ever.

110 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:45:00pm

re: #106 Kragar

Gunman dead, 3 injured in Alabama hospital shooting

What? That's gotta be a mistake. Everybody knows the presence of a gun prevents gun crime.

111 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:45:14pm

re: #106 Kragar

Damn

112 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:45:19pm

re: #98 Mattand

We've adjusted the Constitution in the past in order to correct for its mistakes (I'm looking at you, slavery and women not being allowed to vote.) I see no reason for the 2nd Amendment to be the sacred cow that it is for most people.

Because there isn't nearly the support necessary for it? There is a pretty high bar for amending the constitution and for something as split as gun control it will take decades or more to move the numbers necessary and I don't find it particularly likely. Better chance of getting a couple of supreme court appointees to overturn precedent and reinterpret the second amendment as it is currently written.

113 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:45:26pm

re: #104 Randall Gross

270 million guns, our population is 314 million and just over half of that population is adult. So there's a gun + some for every single adult in the US.

I read the statistic at just under 90% per capita...imagine that same rate for China...one billion weapons.

114 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:47:00pm
115 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:47:03pm

re: #104 Randall Gross

I do wonder what percentage of gun crimes are committed by law abiding citizens?

116 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:47:31pm

Is death by cop a common theme in the US?

117 Minor_L  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:47:32pm

re: #95 researchok

I have read all your comments, and I still don't understand your point. The biggest reason is that addressing DUI isn't any kind of political grenade, whereas talking about gun regulation is. Also, are you suggesting that regulation of drivers are currently regulated the same or less than gun ownership? Or that there are not massive efforts in many states to address DUI (especially on holidays)?

118 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:47:51pm

re: #109 researchok

All true- but a hunting rifle isn't designed to kill people.

And it wouldn't cross the mind of the vast majority of hunters/gun owners to kill anyone, ever.

But there is little talk of regulating hunting rifles.

119 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:47:53pm

re: #115 researchok

I do wonder what percentage of gun crimes are committed by law abiding citizens?

Well once they have commited a gun crime they are no longer law abiding, so 0 % ;)

120 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:48:40pm

re: #101 Charles Johnson

Instapundit retweets paranoid Alex Jones rant.

[Embedded content]

Here's another screen shot.

Image: Instapundit_Retweets_Alex_Jones_on_Gun_Conspiracy.JPG

What a clown.

121 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:48:59pm

re: #118 Gus

But there is little talk of regulating hunting rifles.

Depends on what you define as a hunting rifle. A bolt-action rifle doesn't get much use in such mass shootings, but Bushmaster has become practically synonymous with them, alongside Glock.

122 Tigger2005  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:49:07pm

I am so sick and tired of this ridiculous argument that guns themselves, and specifically their prevalence and easy obtainability in this country, have absolutely nothing to do with the daily carnage and bloodshed...the absurd belief that "even if you take away the guns, you've done nothing to address the underlying problem, and you're going to have just as much violence and death." It's insane. How can people be so blind??? How can they not see that it's a two-way street-- that guns FEED into that culture of violence--that they have power and lethal efficiency that other weapons simply do not? Having a baseball bat or a knife in your hand MAY make you feel stronger but you KNOW a gun will. A gun turns you into a killing machine like practically nothing else can. That's why guns are called "equalizers." How can people not see that a single person with a gun has an infinitely greater chance of taking out large numbers of people before being brought down than a person with almost any other type of weapon except a bomb or a chemical or biological agent?

123 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:49:42pm
124 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:49:59pm

re: #112 danarchy

Because there isn't nearly the support necessary for it? There is a pretty high bar for amending the constitution and for something as split as gun control it will take decades or more to move the numbers necessary and I don't find it particularly likely. Better chance of getting a couple of supreme court appointees to overturn precedent and reinterpret the second amendment as it is currently written.

I do realize that. You make some good points. A lot of it is my frustration with the whole mess. But, IMO and as others have pointed out, the 2nd Amendment was written in a more lawless and primitive time. It is completely out-of-joint with modern society.

125 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:50:06pm

re: #115 researchok

I do wonder what percentage of gun crimes are committed by law abiding citizens?

All of them, up to the point they decide to commit a crime.

126 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:50:27pm

re: #117 Minor_L

I agree with your sentiments. Gun issues are more polarizing than drunk driver issues.

They both need to dealt with.

My issue is simply one of clarification.

127 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:50:39pm

re: #121 Targetpractice

Depends on what you define as a hunting rifle. A bolt-action rifle doesn't get much use in such mass shootings, but Bushmaster has become practically synonymous with them, alongside Glock.

That's part of what I mean. A Bushmaster is designed to kill humans. A hunting rifle is designed to kill animals.

128 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:51:31pm

re: #127 Gus

That's part of what I mean. A Bushmaster is designed to kill humans. A hunting rifle is designed to kill animals.

Thing is, Bushmaster rifles are sold as hunting rifles or for "self-defense," though if you need an AR-15 for home defense, you might wanna consider just saving the money and moving.

129 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:51:50pm

re: #125 Kragar

But are most gun crimes committed by licensed gun owners of by criminals whi have circumvented the law, as the case in Newtown?

130 Tigger2005  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:52:12pm

re: #89 biorabbi

It seems to me a letter from a physician attesting to one's stable mental health might help. As a neurologist, I have to write such letters for folks with epilepsy to drive if they've been seizure free for one year. The pressure is one me as I cannot lie to "help someone out" as the medical record of seizure activity puts the onus on me and my veracity.

Same true for gun control. If there is a well documented record of bipolar disorder, mild autism, severe mood instability, doctors would be very reluctant to "sign off" on gun ownership. This would not, however, have an effect in this case as the guy's mother apparently bought the guns. Still, if restrictions could be placed on driving as a privilege, why can't gun ownership also be treated as a privilege? Proof of good mental health, taking a course on gun safety, and the like.

On the larger point of gun control, the Corner made a depressing point today or yesterday against gun control and it's a point the Michael Moore documentary does not address either. Why now? What is it about our culture that leads to so many more of these attacks? I'm not talking about the issue of God in school, but is violence increasing because of the media? computer games? decline of morality? increase in mental illness? I don't claim to have the answers. I have an increasingly open mind on gun control, but I fear that violence represents some change/decline in our culture? I watched my son's gaming idiocy the other day and it was nonstop shoot and kill stuff with loud background music; whatever happened to Gershwin and monopoly?

They are playing these violent video games in Europe, Australia and Japan too. Japan has horrifically violent movies like Battle Royale.

131 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:52:28pm

re: #126 researchok

My issue is simply one of clarification.

Fail!

132 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:53:05pm

re: #128 Targetpractice

Or buying a shotgun.

That's more than most people need and if it isn't there is a whole other conversation that needs to be had.

133 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:53:07pm

re: #123 Gus

[Embedded content]

I thought the rifle was found in the car? Did he go drop it off and come back in? Or was that more of the fantastically bad reporting from yesterday?

134 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:53:11pm

re: #128 Targetpractice

Thing is, Bushmaster rifles are sold as hunting rifles or for "self-defense," though if you need an AR-15 for home defense, you might wanna consider just saving the money and moving.

Image: BFI_Hero_02.jpg

135 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:53:17pm

re: #131 wrenchwench

Why?

136 Minor_L  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:53:44pm

re: #126 researchok

I still don't get where there's any controversy about whether DUI needs to be dealt with.

137 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:54:05pm

re: #135 researchok

Why?

You seem to have muddied things rather than clarified them.

138 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:54:51pm

re: #132 researchok

Or buying a shotgun.

That's more than most people need and if it isn't there is a whole other conversation that needs to be had.

Load a shotgun with some bird shot, should certainly give any home invader a reason to think twice. Or pack them with rock salt and give the bastard a reason to wish he'd never gotten out of bed.

139 biorabbi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:55:00pm

I don't think it will be easy to modify the constitution.

I do think it will be easy to tightly regulate gun licensing: proof of good mental health, prolonged waiting period, mandatory courses regarding gun safety and maintenance, elimination of gun show loopholes and the like.

140 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:55:12pm

re: #115 researchok

I do wonder what percentage of gun crimes are committed by law abiding citizens?

What kind of conundrum question / distraction is that? If you commit a crime you aren't law abiding are you?

141 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:55:42pm

re: #69 Kragar

The old duck and cover routine comes from the late fifties, or early sixties. All i remember is, we did it in grade school and I started in '57.

142 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56:04pm

Oh they are releasing the names.

143 iossarian  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56:20pm

re: #140 Randall Gross

Why ask such conundrum question / distraction is that? If you commit a crime you aren't law abiding are you?

"Gentlemen of the jury, my client is a law-abiding citizen, with one single exception."

144 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56:53pm

re: #139 biorabbi

I don't think it will be easy to modify the constitution.

I do think it will be easy to tightly regulate gun licensing: proof of good mental health, prolonged waiting period, mandatory courses regarding gun safety and maintenance, elimination of gun show loopholes and the like.

File it under "well-regulated," though I think we can be sure that it's SCOTUS bound and these days, with Kennedy deciding to let his freak flag fly, it's a gamble as to whether such laws would pass.

145 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:57:22pm

I am so removed. So far away. Not a parent. But I am crying crying crying.

This is just so wrong, so disastrous.

146 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:57:23pm

re: #137 wrenchwench


I wish I could write as succinctly as you (or Gus, for that matter).

The point I am trying to make is we have an entire subculture which facilitates these unnecessary deaths. I just believe by dealing with some aspects of that and not others we'll never really deal with the issue successfully.

147 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:57:59pm

Ugh, Christmas shopping calls. BBL.

148 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:58:01pm

3-11 bullet wounds each.

149 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:58:34pm
150 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:59:24pm

re: #148 Stanghazi

3-11 bullet wounds each.

But it wasn't a fully automatic rifle!! //

151 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:59:53pm

re: #140 Randall Gross

No- I wondered how many licensed gun owners committed gun crimes versus criminals who have acquired a gun illegally.

You are right to note they are all criminals.

152 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:00:28pm

I think licenses and period retests and certifications are reasonable controls. I think there ought to be barriers that preclude licensing starting with mental competence, substance abuse, and visual acuity.

153 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:01:28pm

re: #146 researchok

I wish I could write as succinctly as you (or Gus, for that matter).

The point I am trying to make is we have an entire subculture which facilitates these unnecessary deaths. I just believe by dealing with some aspects of that and not others we'll never really deal with the issue successfully.

Unnecessary deaths by motor vehicle is not an aspect of unnecessary deaths by guns. I'd say also not a part of the same subculture. Cramming them together muddies things, not clarifies. Many of the people who muddy things that way do it on purpose to keep people from noticing that they don't have facts on their side (not you, maybe, but folks might suspect you anyway).

154 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:01:29pm

re: #152 Randall Gross

I'd add cooling off periods.

155 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:01:50pm

re: #127 Gus

That's part of what I mean. A Bushmaster is designed to kill humans. A hunting rifle is designed to kill animals.

I tend to disagree with this. They are both designed to propel a projectile at high speed. The bushmaster is no more effective at killing people than any other magazine fed semi-automatic rifle. It just got a nastier look to it.

156 Tigger2005  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:01:57pm

re: #151 researchok

No- I wondered how many licensed gun owners committed gun crimes versus criminals who have acquired a gun illegally.

You are right to note they are all criminals.

You've got suicides, accidental shootings, road rage type incidents...most of those probably involve legally purchased guns.

157 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:02:09pm

re: #154 researchok

Cooling off? You mean waiting periods?

158 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:03:06pm

re: #151 researchok

No- I wondered how many licensed gun owners committed gun crimes versus criminals who have acquired a gun illegally.

You are right to note they are all criminals.

Aren't there only four states that even require gun licenses?

159 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:03:10pm

re: #146 researchok

I wish I could write as succinctly as you (or Gus, for that matter).

The point I am trying to make is we have an entire subculture which facilitates these unnecessary deaths. I just believe by dealing with some aspects of that and not others we'll never really deal with the issue successfully.

Oh, I can agree with that but no one wants to hear about it. A movie culture that glorifies violence. Pulp Fiction and even the upcoming movie Django. Kill, kill, kill. It begins as soon as mother plant their children in front of the boob tube. Apparently though I'm not being cool when I bring this up or something. People will blame toy guns first before they even dare question Hollywood. It's all interconnected.

160 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:03:29pm

I keep seeing references in these threads to "licensed gun owners"...

161 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:03:31pm

re: #148 Stanghazi

3-11 bullet wounds each.

I can't imagine the horror in that classroom as he shot all those young children.
The screams and all the blood everywhere. The rage is unthinkable

162 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:03:37pm
163 CarolJ  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:03:46pm

re: #100 dragonfire1981

And I would add that guns were expensive handmade items, and bullets were even harder to come by. So they would be locked up or otherwise secured very well. So people would arm themselves with swords, sticks, bats, or learn to fight man to man very well. There would have been no school shootings back then by a mentally unstable teenager because there would have been no real access to either guns or bullets. So your typical angry teenager would have come armed with a knife, or prepared for a fistfight, and have been eventually taken down by a stronger person, a potted plant, or simply being tripped. Maybe one person would have died at the most, but others could have run out the back door in the mean time.

One of the things about guns that gun advocates don't want to realizes is that they make killing easy by the lazy and crazy.

164 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:04:45pm

re: #152 Randall Gross

I think licenses and period retests and certifications are reasonable controls. I think there ought to be barriers that preclude licensing starting with mental competence, substance abuse, and visual acuity.

Looks as if non of that would have mattered in this tragic case

Lanza reportedly tried to buy rifle, was denied

165 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:05:15pm

re: #145 Stanghazi

I am so removed. So far away. Not a parent. But I am crying crying crying.

This is just so wrong, so disastrous.

{{{Stanley}}}

166 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:05:31pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

It would matter in others, so you have really no point here.

167 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:05:32pm

re: #162 Charles Johnson

The weapons recovered at the scene.

The Glock, the Sig (inside, used by the shooter) and the Bushmaster (from the car)

168 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:06:00pm

Unconfirmed reports now coming out that the mother Nancy Lanza was a semi-survivalist.

169 dragonfire1981  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:06:26pm

re: #159 Gus

Oh, I can agree with that but no one wants to hear about it. A movie culture that glorifies violence. Pulp Fiction and even the upcoming movie Django. Kill, kill, kill. It begins as soon as mother plant their children in front of the boob tube. Apparently though I'm not being cool when I bring this up or something. People will blame toy guns first before they even dare question Hollywood. It's all interconnected.

Here's the thing though.

I like action movies, I like shooter video games BUT I have enough common sense to tell fantasy apart from reality and understand that the image of guns presented in the media I consume is different from the reality.

Obviously not everyone has such such common sense. Violent movies and video games are sold the world over, why don't other countries have a similar violence problem?

170 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:06:39pm

Stuffing a blunderbuss in your pantaloons isn't very stealthy.

171 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:06:45pm

re: #153 wrenchwench

I have repeatedly made clear in this thread I'm all for stricter gun control. Lot's stricter.

But from where I sit, there is an additional issue of personal responsibility, accountability, etc. that needs to be addressed. These issues go way beyond guns (ans again, I am not minimizing the issue or displacing it) but I do see not just an 'infected' organ but rather an entire organism that is broken.

I am not attempting to shift or deflect the conversation- I am trying t add to it so as to better understand the problem.

Man, I ought to get you to write for me...

172 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:06:45pm

re: #167 Capitalist Tool

The Glock, the Sig (inside, used by the shooter) and the Bushmaster (from the car)

No, the Bushmaster was found inside the school, and most of the children were killed with it.

173 dragonfire1981  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:07:04pm

re: #168 Charles Johnson

Unconfirmed reports now coming out that the mother Nancy Lanza was a semi-survivalist.

Well that might explain the weapons stockpile.

174 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:07:22pm

re: #167 Capitalist Tool

The Bushmaster was used in the attack.

175 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:07:25pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

Looks as if non of that would have mattered in this tragic case

[Embedded content]

Lanza reportedly tried to buy rifle, was denied

If a gun owner were required to keep their guns locked up, maybe the gun owner's son would have a harder time grabbing them.

176 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:07:39pm

re: #172 Charles Johnson

Then, that's new to me... last I saw, the kids were killed with the pistols and the rifle pulled from car

177 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:07:53pm

re: #167 Capitalist Tool

The Glock, the Sig (inside, used by the shooter) and the Bushmaster (from the car)

The coroner said the kids were killed by the bushmaster.

Correct peeps?

178 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:07:55pm

re: #166 Randall Gross

It would matter in others, so you have really no point here.

Because you said so

Got it!!

he got guns
he didn't have to abide by (your words) "licenses and period retests and certifications are reasonable controls.

179 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:08:10pm

re: #176 Capitalist Tool

180 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:08:20pm

re: #174 Mich-again

The Bushmaster was used in the attack.

Verified also by the police radio recordings I listened to yesterday.

181 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:08:21pm

re: #156 Tigger2005

I did read the number of gun suicides is pretty high, but that raises other questions (mental health, alternative methods, etc)

182 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:08:28pm

re: #176 Capitalist Tool

The news has been incredibly inaccurate.

183 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:08:42pm

re: #175 wrenchwench

If a gun owner were required to keep their guns locked up, maybe the gun owner's son would have a harder time grabbing them.

I agree

I have a gun locker that requires two locks. One a key, the other a code

I keep the key locked in another lock box

184 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:08:51pm

re: #178 sattv4u2

Aurora. Like I said you have no point here.

185 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:09:38pm

re: #145 Stanghazi

I am so removed. So far away. Not a parent. But I am crying crying crying.

This is just so wrong, so disastrous.

Hang in there, dude. You're not alone.

186 Tigger2005  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:09:45pm

re: #159 Gus

Oh, I can agree with that but no one wants to hear about it. A movie culture that glorifies violence. Pulp Fiction and even the upcoming movie Django. Kill, kill, kill. It begins as soon as mother plant their children in front of the boob tube. Apparently though I'm not being cool when I bring this up or something. People will blame toy guns first before they even dare question Hollywood. It's all interconnected.

This may be so, but Europeans, Australians and Japanese watch these violent movies too. If you don't have easy access to the weapons used in these movies, you can't readily replicate the violence in them. In THIS country, it's a two-way street. If you want to act out a movie-inspired fantasy, the tools needed to do so are easy enough to obtain. The availability of the guns feeds into the violence.

187 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:10:13pm

re: #175 wrenchwench

Do we know they were not locked up? I'm not sure that would have made a difference. He was bound and determined to get weapons, it appears.

188 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:10:26pm

re: #162 Charles Johnson

The weapons recovered at the scene.

I'm confused I thought the sig and the glock were the two handguns recovered at the scene. Were there actually 5 guns, did the 2 unnammed handguns belong to the shooter or were they found during the subsequent search of the school?

189 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:10:29pm

I don't understand how the shooter got his brother's ID when his brother said he hadn't seen his bro for several years. How is that possible?

190 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:10:32pm

re: #179 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Beware the first tweets.

I actually got re-tweeted I assume, a COMPLETE BULLSHIT last note written by one of the children.

Who in the fuck does that??????? People. People do that shit.

Crazy world. But be careful of twitter in the midst of a tragedy.

191 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:10:42pm

re: #58 Amory Blaine

People are frightened of their own shadow. I basically lived in poor, violent prone areas all my life, until very recently. Had my car stolen, multiple break ins, 2 years ago I had a home invasion that must have starred 3 or 4 assholes. I've been jumped by gang members etc. I don't carry a gun, nor do I want to. Pulling out a gun in any situation involving other people makes you very liable, even for things that may be out of your control. I would never give a gun to my wife to carry. We target practice with family guns up at the farm when the fancy strikes us.

Not only that, but the chances are very good (or bad, depending how you look at things) that you could be disarmed and killed with your own gun, depending on the situation.

192 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:11:04pm

re: #182 Amory Blaine

The news has been incredibly inaccurate.

News is not the product that broadcasters sell...they simply broadcast information to get listeners to listen so as to make their real product, namely advertising time, more attractive to their customers, the advertisers.

This is what we get for relying on a skewered system like that in the age of 24/7 coverage.

193 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:11:42pm

re: #169 dragonfire1981

Here's the thing though.

I like action movies, I like shooter video games BUT I have enough common sense to tell fantasy apart from reality and understand that the image of guns presented in the media I consume is different from the reality.

Obviously not everyone has such such common sense. Violent movies and video games are sold the world over, why don't other countries have a similar violence problem?

Right but what does it say about a society that bemoans these acts of violence yet the number one blockbusters or entertainment involves the dramatization of violence? There's a duality here as well as a desensitization of people. We raised to see murder as a normal everyday part of life. Teenagers are exposed to 10s of 1000s of murders on television by the time they're 18. Music videos which includes gun imagery used in violent crimes. We admire "Jules Winnfield" and this is all part of our gun culture.

194 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:12:08pm

re: #162 Charles Johnson

The weapons recovered at the scene.

Is the .233 the Bushmaster? Looks like a M-16.

195 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:12:10pm

re: #96 researchok

I said I had no link. I swaid I saw a reference to what I believed might be a reference, ertc.

Interesting how you attempt to manipulate what I said.

Patterns, you know?

What you said:

Bratwurst, I did find (I believe) a reference to the paper I saw bur no direct link to it.

The statement didn't reference a paper, claim to reference a paper.

What you mean is it is a comment making the same completely unsupported statement you did.

196 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:12:43pm

re: #194 Mattand

yes

197 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:12:43pm

We're actually going in the opposite direction. 3D printed guns are coming.
[Link: www.extremetech.com...]

198 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:12:57pm

re: #183 sattv4u2

I agree

I have a gun locker that requires two locks. One a key, the other a code

I keep the key locked in another lock box

My thing is this. Do you have guns? Keep them out of the hands of disturbed family members etc.

(Satt, you are doing the best possible)

But then....you have the Aurora guy, who purchased his firearms. Legally.

199 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:13:10pm

bbl

200 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:13:23pm

re: #195 Obdicut

Yes Obdi, you're right.

You know exactly what I'm thinking.

You always do.

201 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:14:58pm

re: #200 researchok

Yes Obdi, you're right.

You know exactly what I'm thinking.

You always do.

I knew you were going to post that!!
//

202 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:15:05pm

re: #200 researchok

I have no idea what you're thinking. I know what you said. You said you found what you thought was a reference to a paper. I am telling you it's not a reference to a paper, since it doesn't reference the paper. It's not just that it doesn't have a direct link to it, it doesn't reference a paper. I'm not sure why you claimed it referenced a paper when it didn't reference a paper, but it didn't reference a paper.

Your current diet of martyr-cookies is going to make you fat-headed.

203 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:15:38pm

re: #201 sattv4u2

Patterns, you know?
//

204 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:15:40pm

re: #198 Stanghazi

.you have the Aurora guy, who purchased his firearms. Legally.

Some do (mass killers) , some don't

205 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:16:19pm

re: #203 researchok

Patterns, you know?
//

Checkered shorts with a striped shirt (my touristy look)

NO ,, WAIT ,,, Paisley!!

206 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:17:01pm
207 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:17:13pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

LOLOL

208 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:17:22pm

They were shot 3 to 11 times each with the Bushmaster.

209 Tigger2005  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:18:27pm

re: #181 researchok

I did read the number of gun suicides is pretty high, but that raises other questions (mental health, alternative methods, etc)

Putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger is far more certain to kill you than hanging, slitting your wrists, taking pills, etc. This is the point I keep making over and over. I don't believe for a second there would be the same number of suicides (or murder-suicides, for that matter) if there were fewer guns out there. Other weapons do not have the same lethal efficiency.

210 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:19:30pm

re: #209 Tigger2005

I'd agree with that- absolutely.

211 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:19:55pm

I'm a gun owner. I've got a couple of rifles and a shotgun. None of them have a capacity, magazine, or clip that can hold more than five rounds. If I can't hit what I'm shooting at with five bullets, then the bear should eat me, the robber should kill me, or the public shooter should slaughter me.

Period.

I don't own handguns. Hate them. All they are good for is shooting people. Ditto for shortened assault weapons that fit nicely, unseen, under a pea coat.

Make the possession of any gun or bullet holder with a capacity of greater than five rounds a Federal crime with a minimum sentence of ten years. Buy back every piece of hardware (these would mostly be clips) that doesn't meet the requirement. If a magazine is greater than five rounds, require plugs.

Want to keep something that doesn't meet the rule? Fine. We will treat every component like we do privately owned machine guns. You will be Federally registered and pay $250 for every component of every gun that doesn't pass muster. Annually.

If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.

Now *that* is "original Constitutional intent" that no one can argue with.

//rant off

212 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:20:26pm

re: #118 Gus

But there is little talk of regulating hunting rifles.

Hence the big push to get hunters to use AR type rifles as the simply the latest & greatest "sporting rifles". It's working too. Lots of ugly cammo colored AR's in the woods.

213 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:21:02pm

The other factors of our culture? We see death of other humans as a solution to foreign policy. With regards to terror we KILL the Taliban. We KILL Al Qaeda. In response to 9/11 we KILL them and KILL Iraqis. With regards to murder many states KILL murderers. With regards to Iran we're already willing to KILL Iranian. We bomb a terrorist encampment and KILL terrorists and KILL civilian while excusing is as collateral damage. During the cold war the USA intelligence community was involved in KILLING people in Latin America. During the Wild West we KILLED. The Indian Wars, we KILLED Indians. During the Civil War we KILLED each other. To gain our freedom, we KILLED many British. Killing is a big part of our culture and history. Not only that, but most people think that once these people are killed, the majority of them will live happily ever after dressed in a white robe and live in the clouds.

214 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:22:19pm

re: #137 wrenchwench

You seem to have muddied things rather than clarified them.

That's his goal.
He did the same thing with DDT discussions.

215 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:23:37pm

I'm going to soothe myself by cooking a meal de Francais

Roasted poulet
Roasted pommes
champignons
haricots verts


Not sure about the eating factor but putting my brain into cooking I know will help.

216 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:23:57pm

re: #215 Stanghazi

I'm going to soothe myself by cooking a meal de Francais

Roasted poulet
Roasted pommes
champignons
haricots verts

Not sure about the eating factor but putting my brain into cooking I know will help.

No idea what any of that is.
;)

217 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:24:11pm

re: #209 Tigger2005

Putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger is far more certain to kill you than hanging, slitting your wrists, taking pills, etc. This is the point I keep making over and over. I don't believe for a second there would be the same number of suicides (or murder-suicides, for that matter) if there were fewer guns out there. Other weapons do not have the same lethal efficiency.

Then again, Japan has almost no gun violence and a much higher suicide rate than the US. Other factors seem to be pretty important in suicide rates. Guns are certainly a factor, but not the only one and not even the most important one.

218 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:24:17pm

re: #211 austin_blue

Yes it can be argued with. Unlike you, I'm not going to repeat myself today. Instead I'm going to go play with my son while you all pretend you can wish away the guns instead of trying to find real ways to mitigate the harm.

219 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:25:12pm

re: #218 William Barnett-Lewis

Yes it can be argued with. Unlike you, I'm not going to repeat myself today. Instead I'm going to go play with my son while you all pretend you can wish away the guns instead of trying to find real ways to mitigate the harm.

There are a number of ways to mitigate them.
Problem is that the gun lobby is absolutely opposed to them.

220 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:25:30pm

Gore Vidal said it once. I could never find the actual citation. But he was right when he said that America was a death cult.

221 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:26:20pm

re: #220 Gus

We're still that immature.

222 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:26:32pm

And that gun lobby has de-facto control of the GOP and most of the Ds are scared shitless of them.

223 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:26:50pm

re: #220 Gus

#War!

224 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:27:10pm

re: #220 Gus

Gore Vidal said it once. I could never find the actual citation. But he was right when he said that America was a death cult.

No no, I've been assured we have a 'culture of life', as opposed to the 'culture of death' in Arab countries in the Middle East. Like the bizarre and obviously simplistic 'shame' vs. 'guilt' culture this is mostly a way of patting ourselves on the back and talking about how awesome we are, while ignoring any aspects of our society that disprove the ludicrously facile Steppenwolfing.

225 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:30:17pm

Abraham Lincoln - assassinated
James Garfield - assassinated
William McKinley - assassinated
John F. Kennedy - assassinated

Robert Kennedy - assassinated
Martin Luther King - assassinated

226 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:30:50pm

re: #225 Gus

Abraham Lincoln - assassinated
James Garfield - assassinated
William McKinley - assassinated
John F. Kennedy - assassinated

Robert Kennedy - assassinated
Martin Luther King - assassinated

Ban presidents.

227 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:31:42pm

True?

A reasonable compromise?

228 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:31:52pm

Heh:
Bunnyslippers at FreeRepublic:

To: BunnySlippers
Sorry I posted a duplicate.

Late night I posted this photo and was asked a couple of times if it is rear. apparently so.

As I posted on another thread, the shooter was described in many articles as a “gamer”.

The GOP is going to have to frame this as a “mental health” and “gamer” issue to fight off gun control.

Warning : Link to frothing madness:
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

229 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:32:56pm
230 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:34:01pm

re: #228 Randall Gross

Heh:
Bunnyslippers at FreeRepublic:

The GOP is going to have to frame this as a “mental health” and “gamer” issue to fight off gun control.

Fucking classic conservative mindset: shift the blame to a new scapegoat rather than deal with a real issue.

231 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:34:05pm

re: #225 Gus

Abraham Lincoln - assassinated
James Garfield - assassinated
William McKinley - assassinated
John F. Kennedy - assassinated

Robert Kennedy - assassinated
Martin Luther King - assassinated

Anybody here seen my old friend Martin?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He helped a lot of people.. But the good die young
Abraham..Martin and John

232 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:34:21pm

re: #225 Gus

Reagan assassination attempt:

Note the number of alert armed secret service and police guarding the President,
and Hinckley almost succeeded.

233 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:34:52pm

re: #229 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

The names:

Charlotte Bacon, 6
Daniel Barden, 7
Rachel Davino, 29
Olivia Engel, 6
Josephine Gay, 7
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
Dylan Hockley, 6
Dawn Hocksprung, 47
Madeline Hsu, 6
Catherine Hubbard, 6
Chase Kowalski, 7
Jesse Lewis, 6
James Mattioli, 6
Grace McDonnell, 7
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
Emilie Parker, 6
Jack Pinto, 6
Noah Pozner, 6
Caroline Previdi, 6
Jessica Rekos, 6
Avielle Richman, 6
Lauren Russeau, 30
Mary Sherlach, 56
Victoria Soto, 27
Benjamin Wheeler, 6
Allison Wyatt, 6

234 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:35:55pm

26 moments that will hopefully restore our faith in humans

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

235 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:36:45pm

re: #233 Gus

The names:

Charlotte Bacon, 6
Daniel Barden, 7
Rachel Davino, 29
Olivia Engel, 6
Josephine Gay, 7
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
Dylan Hockley, 6
Dawn Hocksprung, 47
Madeline Hsu, 6
Catherine Hubbard, 6
Chase Kowalski, 7
Jesse Lewis, 6
James Mattioli, 6
Grace McDonnell, 7
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
Emilie Parker, 6
Jack Pinto, 6
Noah Pozner, 6
Caroline Previdi, 6
Jessica Rekos, 6
Avielle Richman, 6
Lauren Russeau, 30
Mary Sherlach, 56
Victoria Soto, 27
Benjamin Wheeler, 6
Allison Wyatt, 6

Damn that's a long list.

236 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:37:30pm

re: #230 Mattand

Fucking classic conservative mindset: shift the blame to a new scapegoat rather than deal with a real issue.

Exactly which is why I would caution folks about aiding and abetting the direction we know the NRA is going to go on this anyway.

237 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:37:45pm

So young.

238 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:38:12pm

re: #228 Randall Gross

That "mental health" diversion is absolutely everywhere on the right wing sites today.

That's why I keep trying to emphasize that it's a big mistake to automatically connect crimes like this one with mental illness. It's an easy excuse, but the fact is that in the vast majority of gun crimes, including mass shootings, mental illness was not the cause. People are perfectly capable of doing monstrous things without being "insane."

239 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:38:16pm

too many, too young.

240 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:38:24pm

re: #233 Gus

The names:

Oh the horror.

241 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:39:13pm

re: #238 Charles Johnson

I've seen a couple sites where they are just flat out making shit up already.

242 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:39:55pm

re: #221 researchok

We're still that immature.

pull my finger!
/

243 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:43:33pm

The 112th Congress Addresses Gun Control

...no major gun-control legislation proposed during the 112th Congress has made it out of committee.

244 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:44:51pm

This is one of the big problems:

Image: zzdGI.gif

Image: le8cS.gif

Crime rate is going down; people think it's going up. Why? Because 'law and order' politicians want t be tough on crime, because prosecutors want to seem really important, because the right-wing media likes to spread paranoia about black people attacking white people, about illegal immigrants going on crime sprees.

245 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:44:54pm

The entire right wing blogosphere is in one of two modes: either frantically trying to blame the shooting on video games or mental illness, or shrieking MOAR GUNZ! GUNZ GUNZ GUNZ!

246 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:45:35pm

The right wing claims the shooter is mentally ill. None of their solutions contain more access to health care or stricter control on obtaining guns however. So even with their analysis, they will still ignore the problem. Personal responsibility will be the mantra.

247 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:46:58pm

re: #245 Charles Johnson

The entire right wing blogosphere is in one of two modes: either frantically trying to blame the shooting on video games or mental illness, or shrieking MOAR GUNZ! GUNZ GUNZ GUNZ!

Yeah & they are absolutely "flooding the zone" too - it's getting very hard to dig down to real information.

248 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:47:39pm

The Politics of Gun Control Have Changed, But Will Democrats Notice?

Nate Cohn: "...even though the public might not overwhelmingly favor gun control, there’s reason to believe that Democrats can again feel comfortable fighting for gun control after a decade of keeping it on the back-burner. After all, they're less reliant on rural, gun-owning voters than at any time in the history of the party."

249 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:47:45pm

re: #22 researchok

Randall, let me lay Deivl's Advocate for a moment:

Is finding and taking away 300 million guns is a realistic option?

And how do we keep guns from being smuggled in- we can't control illegal weed importation!

Of the 300 million plus guns, how many have been used in mass shootings in last century- 100? 300? 1000?

Don't those numbers describe outliers?

If tragic deaths are a priority, ought we not prioritize and deal with deaths caused by vehicles and by drunk drivers? Those deaths total almost 33,000 with 10,200 by way of drunk driver- and these numbers represent a decline in vehicle related deathsdeaths.

Don't get me wrong- I do believe we need far stricter gun laws, background checks, cooling off periods, loopholes shut, etc., but in the end I believe mental health issues and culture need to be addressed.

True.

250 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:48:53pm
251 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:48:59pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

True but an irrelevant distraction to this discussion.

252 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:49:57pm

re: #246 Amory Blaine

The right wing claims the shooter is mentally ill. None of their solutions contain more access to health care or stricter control on obtaining guns however. So even with their analysis, they will still ignore the problem. Personal responsibility will be the mantra.

Seeds of that planted by his relatives

A relative told ABC News that Adam was "obviously not well."

Family friends in Newtown also described the young man as troubled and described Nancy as rigid. "[Adam] was not connected with the other kids," said Barbara Frey, who also said he was "a little bit different ... Kind of repressed."
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

253 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:50:26pm

re: #231 A Man for all Seasons

Anybody here seen my old friend Martin?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He helped a lot of people.. But the good die young
Abraham..Martin and John

254 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:51:58pm

re: #250 Gus

Now Fischer is just trolling.

255 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:53:20pm

ABC reporting:

Marsha Lanza, who is Adam's aunt and Nancy's ex-sister-in-law, told Evelyn Holmes of ABC-owned-and-operated station WLS in Chicago that Nancy had once been a classroom aide at the Sandy Hook school.

Marsha, who lives in the Chicago suburb of Crystal Lake, said that Nancy had home-schooled Adam after pulling him out of the Newtown public school system. She did not know when Adam had left school. According to former classmates, Adam had attended the local high school at least through part of 10th grade.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Homeschooling, 5 firearms...

256 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:53:26pm

And so it starts...
A bit ago,on my teevee, the talking heads are now saying the shooter had Asperger's Syndrome. It took less than 10 minutes for my son to get a shitty nasty ass message on his facebook page from an asshole from his old high school. Damn it.

I hate people today,I really do.

257 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:56:09pm

re: #256 A Mom Anon

The fact that people with Aspergers are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of it will be ignored.

[Link: www.childpsych.theclinics.com...]

258 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:57:20pm

re: #255 Randall Gross

I've heard several newscreatures say they've heard stories indicating that Nancy Lanza may have had survivalist tendencies.

259 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:57:30pm

re: #211 austin_blue

Make the possession of any gun or bullet holder with a capacity of greater than five rounds a Federal crime with a minimum sentence of ten years.

That's every Garand the Civilian Marksmanship Program has ever sold.

Buy back every piece of hardware (these would mostly be clips) that doesn't meet the requirement. If a magazine is greater than five rounds, require plugs.

Want to keep something that doesn't meet the rule? Fine. We will treat every component like we do privately owned machine guns. You will be Federally registered and pay $250 for every component of every gun that doesn't pass muster. Annually.

As long as we're musing on policy that has zero chance of passing the House of Representatives why not make it a million dollars each, or a billion? Even if by some miracle it got passed it would get struck down as an unconstitutional illegal taking of property unless there's just compensation given in exchange.

260 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:57:31pm

re: #256 A Mom Anon

And so it starts...
A bit ago,on my teevee, the talking heads are now saying the shooter had Asperger's Syndrome. It took less than 10 minutes for my son to get a shitty nasty ass message on his facebook page from an asshole from his old high school. Damn it.

I hate people today,I really do.

261 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:57:46pm

The USA has a culture problem.

[Link: imgur.com...]

262 kirkspencer  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:58:16pm

Proposed:

1. that every firearm be registered, said registration to be maintained in a national database.

2. that the owner's name and address of every firearm be maintained in the same national database.

3. that every owner be required to have a mental health evaluation AND to pass a skills and knowledge certification process every five years; that on failure any registered firearms are to be surrendered to a secure facility (which may be private) to be held until they can be returned or are released (by owner or owner's power of attorney or death) for sale or disposal.

4. that a registered owner with valid health certification be allowed to carry, concealed or open as preferred, the registered firearm except in cases identified as being at high risk for accident or mental incompetence of owner or nearby others who might have access (schools, bars, sports games, courts, etc.)

5. that individuals who are not owners may certify for use of firearms by mental health evaluation; that degree of liability for owners who allow people access or use of the owned firearms depends on whether the individuals had and presented their certification.

==

Something to hate for everyone.

263 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:59:04pm

re: #262 kirkspencer

Have to add: Keep guns secure at all times in a gun-safe.

264 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:59:39pm

re: #248 jaunte

The Politics of Gun Control Have Changed, But Will Democrats Notice?

For the forseeable future, the Democratic Party is the best chance of avoiding the kind of plutocratic, theocratic, racist nightmare the TPGOP wants to create. The party's chances of doing that are not all that great. I don't want to see it destroy itself over gun control policies that will not pass.

That means the murders, suicides, and accidents will continue at the present 'tolerable' rate.

265 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:59:45pm

re: #256 A Mom Anon

And so it starts...
A bit ago,on my teevee, the talking heads are now saying the shooter had Asperger's Syndrome. It took less than 10 minutes for my son to get a shitty nasty ass message on his facebook page from an asshole from his old high school. Damn it.

I hate people today,I really do.

Having an emotional or behavioral problem can make you think different thoughts than other people, I know this from personal experience. But I also know that I can control those thoughts and I know others can too. So you've got my deepest sympathies for you and your son. I know what the assholes are like when they get going, and they can make things hellish for their target.

266 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:59:52pm

re: #261 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

[Link: www.winedelight.com...]

267 kirkspencer  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:01:06pm

re: #263 Obdicut

Have to add: Keep guns secure at all times in a gun-safe.

Felt that to be inherent in the control of access being the responsibility of the owner.

268 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:01:36pm

Charts from Michael Mechanic at mj:
[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

"The risk of firearm death in very rural counties is the same as the risk for big cities," notes the FICAP report. "Rural areas have higher risks for firearm suicide and unintentional injury, while the risks for firearm homicide and assault are greater in urban areas."

269 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:02:32pm

A rocket scientist* named Jeff Buckley just left this brilliant bon mot at this CNN article:

Do not let emotions overtake commonn sense. Yesterday, many more people were killed with cars then in the school, yet we have to keep hearing about this shooting. Both tragic, but keep in mind, car accidents should be getting more attention than this.

My response, which in reality will not make it past moderation:

Seriously, screw you, Jeff. It's a false equivalence and you know it. It's jerks like you that keep finding a way to cheapen this tragedy so you can play with your precious little guns.

20 children dead and all you're worried about is your weapons. Idiot.

Just for the record: MASS GUN KILLINGS ARE NOT THE SAME AS FATAL CAR ACCIDENTS, SO KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF ALREADY.

*I'm fairly sure he's not an actual rocket scientist.

270 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:02:53pm

re: #250 Gus

[Embedded content]

I don't get Fisher..Maybe he never read the bible.
We all have free will and God will let you do whatever you want..
You can be a Hitler or Mother Teresa..
Fisher doesn't think those 6 million Jews being led to the gas chamber wasn't praying with fervor? Did God step in to save his chosen people?
God wasn't punishing you if a drunk driver killed your child. It was free will to drive while drunk.
God makes it rain on the righteous and wicked alike.

271 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:08:09pm

re: #247 Randall Gross

Yeah & they are absolutely "flooding the zone" too - it's getting very hard to dig down to real information.

A mass Gish Gallop.

272 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:10:01pm
273 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:11:04pm

62 mass shootings in 30 years, interactive map at Mother Jones:

[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

274 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:11:54pm

re: #270 A Man for all Seasons

Did God step in to save his chosen people?

I keep hearing the question... chosen for what?

275 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:12:26pm

Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms: faster falls in firearm deaths, firearm suicides, and a decade without mass shootings

Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides. Total homicide rates followed the same pattern. Removing large numbers of rapid-firing firearms from civilians may be an effective way of reducing mass shootings, firearm homicides and firearm suicides.

..........

In the 18 years up to and including 1996, the year of the massacre at Port Arthur, Australia experienced 13 mass shootings. In these events alone, 112 people were shot dead and at least another 52 wounded (table 1).8 In the 10.5 years since Port Arthur and the revised gun laws, no mass shootings have occurred in Australia.

276 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:13:10pm

Yeah, I'm totally going to accept retroactive, 20/20 hindsight, layman's-opinion diagnoses that the shooter was mentally ill. Zero chance that it's a hot mess of confirmation bias and echoing existing tropes about weird kids and craziness.

Then we can go get a pelvic exam from a guy in a trucker hat that read "Amateur Gynecologist."

{For fuck's sake.}

277 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:13:39pm

re: #273 Randall Gross

62 mass shootings in 30 years, interactive map at Mother Jones:

[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

Note to self

Move to New Mexico
Avoid California

278 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:14:50pm

re: #272 jaunte

What would ‘meaningful action’ on gun control look like?

Good start. Whatever the meaningful action is, it must be able to get past the Supreme Court. In that sense, the most meaningful action is to get a couple reasonable liberals nominated and through the Senate.

280 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:15:32pm

re: #270 A Man for all Seasons

I don't get Fisher..Maybe he never read the bible.
We all have free will and God will let you do whatever you want..
You can be a Hitler or Mother Teresa..
Fisher doesn't think those 6 million Jews being led to the gas chamber wasn't praying with fervor? Did God step in to save his chosen people?
God wasn't punishing you if a drunk driver killed your child. It was free will to drive while drunk.
God makes it rain on the righteous and wicked alike.

I was thinking that last night. That God was in the homes of the Jews in Germany before and during the time they were stolen from their homes and taken to their deaths in concentration camps. Of course those that adhere to the maniacal writings of Martin Luther might think otherwise. Perhaps Fischer would fall into this camp. In theory God would not turn his back even on unbelievers -- I say in theory because I'm an atheist. However, if I believed in God I would think of him or her as being far more benevolent than the likes of Fischer. There was no plan or destiny for yesterday's victims. It all came together in many ways by chance. However, the only way to prevent such horror is up to us human beings.

281 Kid A  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:17:15pm

Jim Hoft, you pathetic excuse for a human being. Look at the lede paragraph to a story that he wrote...

Many pundits today may be wondering what it is about Barack Obama that is causing all of these mass shootings.
That’s a topic for another day.

Piece. Of. Shit

282 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:17:25pm

I keep seeing psychiatrists on the news shows - the reporter asks, "Is this more of a mental health issue than a gun issue?" and the psychiatrist goes, "Definitely, the mental health issue is primary."

Well, what do you think he's gonna say? He's a psychiatrist.

I miss the days when it was considered borderline unethical for psychiatrists to go on TV and speculate about the mental health of people who were not their patients.

283 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:18:14pm

As that wonkette article points out, suicide rates of people 55+ who own handguns are greater than those who don't, and the GOP has a lot of old, bitter gun owners in their base - it might be to their benefit to help their voter base survive a little longer.

284 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:18:22pm

re: #277 sattv4u2

Note to self

Move to New Mexico
Avoid California

Also, notice how everything you buy from pencils to drill bits has a label that reads something like "this product contains materials know to cause cancer by the state of California". The place is a death trap.

285 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:18:33pm
286 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:18:46pm

re: #282 Charles Johnson

I keep seeing psychiatrists on the news shows - the reporter asks, "Is this more of a mental health issue than a gun issue?" and the psychiatrist goes, "Definitely, the mental health issue is primary."

Well, what do you think he's gonna say? He's a psychiatrist.

I miss the days when it was considered borderline unethical for psychiatrists to go on TV and speculate about the mental health of people who were not their patients.

Andy Warhol Syndrome: that camera and microphone means their 15 minutes just rolled up in the Action News van.

287 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:19:23pm

Anyone post this most needed list yet?

288 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:19:47pm

re: #287 Stanghazi

Anyone post this most needed list yet?

[Embedded content]

Sat

289 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:20:08pm

re: #287 Stanghazi

Anyone post this most needed list yet?

[Embedded content]

I think sattv4u did a few minutes back. Some nice photos in there.

290 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:20:45pm

re: #250 Gus

[Embedded content]

291 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:21:04pm

If only we had more guns...

292 kirkspencer  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:22:17pm

re: #269 Mattand

A rocket scientist* named Jeff Buckley just left this brilliant bon mot at this CNN article:

My response, which in reality will not make it past moderation:

Just for the record: MASS GUN KILLINGS ARE NOT THE SAME AS FATAL CAR ACCIDENTS, SO KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF ALREADY.

*I'm fairly sure he's not an actual rocket scientist.

"this" shooting vs all motor vehicle deaths. Or maybe he just meant 'this' shooting vs all motor vehicle deaths of the day, not realizing other people died by firearms yesterday. Sadly, I know for a fact there were other firearms-caused deaths yesterday. I can read the news, you see.

To give more detail than I did last thread, in 2011 the CDC reports 34,667 deaths by motor vehicle accident. There were 32,163 firearms related deaths in the same year. (link again).

293 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:22:33pm

re: #258 Charles Johnson

I've heard several newscreatures say they've heard stories indicating that Nancy Lanza may have had survivalist tendencies.

Which, if true, didn't protect her from her own son in the end.

Killed with her own gun(s)...take that for what it's worth.

294 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:22:41pm

re: #291 Varek Raith

If only we had more guns...

If I had more arms I would need more hands.

295 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:23:34pm

re: #288 Gus

multitasking fail. yeah, I updinged him.

296 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:24:40pm
297 Kid A  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:25:00pm

And this...

Sorry Daniel Radner: it IS about politics. Because after those poor children are buried, and their parents are still trying to figure out how to cope with an unimaginable loss, some chorus of idiots will proclaim:”THIS MUST NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN! THE GOVERNMENT MUST DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT THIS!!” You can try to seize the moral high-ground here, proclaim we should be praying for the victims, (my family has, and will continue to do so…), and wait for more detail etc.etc.etc. blahh, blahh. That’s idiotic. Why? Because there has already been more than one meeting in the West Wing about the best way to exploit this tragedy. GUARuhnTEED. That’s the left’s first rule: Never let a good crisis go to waste…

298 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:25:27pm

re: #290 TedStriker

I'm out of strong emotion where Bryan Fischer is concerned. He's a pure shithead who has no limits to how low he'll go. He's not worth the time or energy to get pissed at.

Bryan Fischer = toxic waste End of Line.

299 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:25:56pm

re: #290 TedStriker

I guess the Wedgwood Baptist Church folks in Fort Worth should have remembered "the sanctuary" means you have to carry a gun.
Lone gunman slays seven in Texas church

300 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:25:57pm

re: #282 Charles Johnson

I keep seeing psychiatrists on the news shows - the reporter asks, "Is this more of a mental health issue than a gun issue?" and the psychiatrist goes, "Definitely, the mental health issue is primary."

Well, what do you think he's gonna say? He's a psychiatrist.

I miss the days when it was considered borderline unethical for psychiatrists to go on TV and speculate about the mental health of people who were not their patients.

More basically, it's fundamentally fucking stupid to analyze someone on the basis of a few thumbnail sketches from randomly-sampled people that barely knew them. I don't care how much of an "expert" you are, a psychological profile cannot be plucked from the air.

The unethical part is that just like serial crime "profilers"--who have been savagely debunked--on-air shrinks are doing little more than making educated guesses and playing to existing societal stereotypes. The audience sense of their veracity comes from Colbert "truthiness," pretty much like fake psychic using cold reading.

Elizabeth Loftus is a good person to read on this subject. People's recall is incredibly malleable, and more often than not their "memory" bends in a way that retroactively see a pattern, self-flatters by maintaining a false sense of perceptively, and is specifically sculpted by societal expectations of what you're supposed to recall.

301 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:26:17pm

re: #211 austin_blue

I'm a gun owner. I've got a couple of rifles and a shotgun. None of them have a capacity, magazine, or clip that can hold more than five rounds. If I can't hit what I'm shooting at with five bullets, then the bear should eat me, the robber should kill me, or the public shooter should slaughter me.

Period.

I don't own handguns. Hate them. All they are good for is shooting people. Ditto for shortened assault weapons that fit nicely, unseen, under a pea coat.

Make the possession of any gun or bullet holder with a capacity of greater than five rounds a Federal crime with a minimum sentence of ten years. Buy back every piece of hardware (these would mostly be clips) that doesn't meet the requirement. If a magazine is greater than five rounds, require plugs.

Want to keep something that doesn't meet the rule? Fine. We will treat every component like we do privately owned machine guns. You will be Federally registered and pay $250 for every component of every gun that doesn't pass muster. Annually.

If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.

Now *that* is "original Constitutional intent" that no one can argue with.

//rant off

I have never hunted deer with anything other than a black power rifle, never felt the need to.
For squirrels I use a 22 single shot and for rabbits I used a 5 shot 20 gauge.

302 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:26:57pm

re: #292 kirkspencer

"this" shooting vs all motor vehicle deaths. Or maybe he just meant 'this' shooting vs all motor vehicle deaths of the day, not realizing other people died by firearms yesterday. Sadly, I know for a fact there were other firearms-caused deaths yesterday. I can read the news, you see.

To give more detail than I did last thread, in 2011 the CDC reports 34,667 deaths by motor vehicle accident. There were 32,163 firearms related deaths in the same year. (link again).

Do. Not. Care.

The end result of the "car accidents and gun massacres were separated birth" arguments is pretend there's no difference between them, ergo we don't need gun control.

To participate in this false equivalence is to deny reality.

303 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:27:45pm

re: #284 Killgore Trout

Also, notice how everything you buy from pencils to drill bits has a label that reads something like "this product contains materials know to cause cancer by the state of California". The place is a death trap.

Three words

O
J
Simpson

304 DisturbedEma  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:28:05pm

Just sick over the deaths and the way some people in he world are trying to lessen the horror or worse talk of god in ways that make my stomach hurt

305 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:28:57pm

re: #299 jaunte

I guess the Wedgwood Baptist Church folks in Fort Worth should have remembered "the sanctuary" means you have to carry a gun.
Lone gunman slays seven in Texas church

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

306 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:30:33pm

re: #305 Gus

I would bet Fischer doesn't consider the Pope a Christian.

307 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:32:41pm

re: #306 jaunte

I would bet Fischer doesn't consider the Pope a Christian.

He had it coming! //

308 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:32:54pm

If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.

they did try to enforce the militia part for a number of decades after the revolution, altho the record shows that they often degenerated into drinking parties

still, if we are going to be biblical literalists in regard to the 2nd amendment, i do believe that anybody speaking out against gun controls and brandishing the second part of the sentence should be compelled by law to live out the literal meaning of the first part of the sentence

it's only fair and logical and according to the letter and intent of the constitution

309 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:33:43pm

[Link: www.inquisitr.com...]

Vicki Soto barricaded her first grade class in a closet when gunfire broke out.

And then she blocked the door with her own body, becoming one of the six school staffers who died protecting the 600 students at the school. Reports indicate that Soto told gunman Adam Lanza that her class of students were in the gym before he shot and killed her.

Thank you, Vicki Soto. Unbearably brave.

310 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:34:07pm

re: #280 Gus

Of course those that adhere to the maniacal writings of Martin Luther might think otherwise. Perhaps Fischer would fall into this camp.

You need not pose it as a question. It's a barely-concealed secret that Wingnut Protestantism (in which Jesus is about as present as vermouth in a martini) maintains that the Holocaust was God's way of punishing the Jews for not returning to Israel fast enough. Occasionally a pastor will get quote-checked for saying this, and they'll deny it, then apologize, and then go right back to talking about it while making sure they do so only behind closed doors with other true believers.

311 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:34:36pm

re: #306 jaunte

I would bet Fischer doesn't consider the Pope a Christian.

Until he runs under the GOP, then those accusations are scrubbed from their site/mind.

Charlatans. Nothing more.

312 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:35:19pm

re: #309 Obdicut

[Link: www.inquisitr.com...]

Thank you, Viki Soto. Unbearably brave.

And done without having a gun.

313 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:39:21pm
314 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:39:46pm

word of the day:

impractical

it is impractical to attempt to control gun violence by issuing more guns

315 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:41:33pm

re: #258 Charles Johnson

I've heard several newscreatures say they've heard stories indicating that Nancy Lanza may have had survivalist tendencies.

Besides the number of firearms, her choice of guns is certainly consistent with that. Bushmaster, SIG, and Glock are all iconic names among survival types. She had some others, too, like a Henry lever action .22. This is purely a hunting rifle, notable for quality and reliability. Most survivalists include such a gun in their arsenals for supplying small game.

316 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:44:41pm

re: #314 engineer cat

word of the day:

impractical

it is impractical to attempt to control gun violence by issuing more guns

or chimerical.

318 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:51:20pm

re: #315 Shiplord Kirel

survivalists

voted most likely to kill each other over the last rat in fort wayne indiana

seriously, survivalists have been sold a doomsday scenario where they can imagine themselves living heroically

in reality what will most likely happen is that we will all live out our lives in quiet despair as the economy grinds us down more and more

319 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:51:28pm

re: #315 Shiplord Kirel

Besides the number of firearms, her choice of guns is certainly consistent with that. Bushmaster, SIG, and Glock are all iconic names among survival types. She had some others, too, like a Henry lever action .22. This is purely a hunting rifle, notable for quality and reliability. Most survivalists include such a gun in their arsenals for supplying small game.

How about Ruger, Marlin, Wichester, Mossberg, Savage, Sako?
A "case" could be built, but what's the point?

320 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:52:35pm
Rating: 12
Total: 14
Plus: 13
Gus (Gus 802), ibob, jaunte, Jimmah (Jimmah), majii, Obdicut (Obdicut), palomino, philosophus invidius, Interesting Times (publicityStunted), Stanghazi (Stanley Sea), Henchman 25 (SteelPH), Randall Gross (Thanos), wrenchwench


Minus: 1
Dark_Falcon

'sup, Dark?

321 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:53:19pm

re: #317 Gus

Oh great.

Connecticut school shooting: Westboro Baptist Church planning to picket (Video)

That was as predicable as the sunrise. There's a good reason why Fred Phelps is the most reasonably hated man in America.

Note the words 'reasonably'. Unlike political figures such as Barack Obama, where the hate directed at the person is irrational, it is entirely reasonable and rational to hate Fred Phelps.

322 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:54:35pm

Oh jeez.

323 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:54:52pm

Yeesh. This photo of Adam Lanza...

Image: ZZ7DB86DE6.jpg

324 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:55:12pm

re: #321 Dark_Falcon

That was as predicable as the sunrise. There's a good reason why Fred Phelps is the most reasonably hated man in America.

Note the words 'reasonably'. Unlike political figures such as Barack Obama, where the hate directed at the person is irrational, it is entirely reasonable and rational to hate Fred Phelps.

Students at Texas A&M formed a human chain around a funeral to keep those drecks out.

325 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:55:38pm

re: #322 Gus

Oh jeez.

[Embedded content]

There are moments when I find myself hating the internet. This is one of them.

326 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:56:17pm

I know I'm on a tear, but one final thing.

Don't believe for a second the the wingnuts ranting about mental illness care in the slightest about actual reform of our mental health system, or even want to study the factors and traits that might drive a mass shooter. "Mentally ill" is an out for gun fetishists, and means that the killer was some squitty dude that they wouldn't drink a beer with. Somebody not manly, somebody liberal or nerdy or introverted. Their buddy with the wild conspiracy theories or their moody friend that drinks too much aren't mentally ill. And the guy that pops his wife in the mouth occasionally isn't violence-prone either.

327 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:58:38pm

re: #324 Capitalist Tool

Students at Texas A&M formed a human chain around a funeral to keep those drecks out.

In Tuscon residents used "angel wings' to screen off those choads. The Patriot Guard Riders use American flags for the same purpose. Thousands of people, all of whom have to take time out of their lives because one family has a shitbird and its head. I hope God has a special place in Hell for Fred Phelps.

328 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:58:42pm

re: #320 wrenchwench

'sup, Dark?

I take it he disagrees with the study.
Wonder why.

329 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:59:27pm

To this day, neither my cousin nor I can quite remember the name of that monster that shot John Lennon. We were both fans and when John was killed, we made a pact to never speak the killers name or listen if it was spoken or read it if in print and it worked. She can't quite remember his name, nor can I.

330 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:01:58pm

re: #329 Capitalist Tool

Was the name Chapman?

331 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:02:53pm

I'm looking at my meager firearms collection today, and I find myself tempted to get rid of a good portion of it. Most of them are wood-and-blue civilian stuff handed down from family, but there are a couple of Evil Black Guns in varied size - a big and small for carry, one for history, one for zombies - and I find myself wondering, just what do I own some of these for, anyway?

On the other hand, if I sold them they'd likely end up in the hands of some crazy Republican douchebag somewhere, thus perpetuating the issue of National Crazy, which I've tried not to be a part of.

Introspection needed. I'll have to think about this some.

332 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:04:32pm

re: #329 Capitalist Tool

To this day, neither my cousin nor I can quite remember the name of that monster that shot John Lennon. We were both fans and when John was killed, we made a pact to never speak the killers name or listen if it was spoken or read it if in print and it worked. She can't quite remember his name, nor can I.

Mark David Chapman

333 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:05:33pm

re: #331 Pawn of the Oppressor

I'm looking at my meager firearms collection today, and I find myself tempted to get rid of a good portion of it. Most of them are wood-and-blue civilian stuff handed down from family, but there are a couple of Evil Black Guns in varied size - a big and small for carry, one for history, one for zombies - and I find myself wondering, just what do I own some of these for, anyway?

On the other hand, if I sold them they'd likely end up in the hands of some crazy Republican douchebag somewhere, thus perpetuating the issue of National Crazy, which I've tried not to be a part of.

Introspection needed. I'll have to think about this some.

Keep them. You're not the problem. The problem is criminals who use a gun as one of their crime tools and violent-minded assholes. You are neither.

334 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:05:52pm

re: #332 TedStriker

Dang. You beat me to it. But I am still learning how to use my MacBook Pro.

335 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:05:58pm

re: #331 Pawn of the Oppressor

I'm looking at my meager firearms collection today, and I find myself tempted to get rid of a good portion of it. Most of them are wood-and-blue civilian stuff handed down from family, but there are a couple of Evil Black Guns in varied size - a big and small for carry, one for history, one for zombies - and I find myself wondering, just what do I own some of these for, anyway?

On the other hand, if I sold them they'd likely end up in the hands of some crazy Republican douchebag somewhere, thus perpetuating the issue of National Crazy, which I've tried not to be a part of.

Introspection needed. I'll have to think about this some.

Make 'em into a musical instrument.

[Link: kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com...]

336 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:06:15pm

re: #331 Pawn of the Oppressor

Are they in a gun safe?

337 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:10:28pm

re: #260 Gus

Thanks for the link to that site Gus. I facebooked this article and just got a hug from my teenager, "Thanks Mom,for always having my back". He used to call me every day in high school at lunch because not one freaking kid would ever sit and eat with him. And every day he would tell me he loved me on the phone. I need to get off here,this whole thing has me a mess. I'm mad and sad,and more than a little discouraged.

338 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:11:35pm

re: #337 A Mom Anon

All I can say is you were there for him. In this case that is what matters.

339 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:13:09pm

re: #337 A Mom Anon

Thanks for the link to that site Gus. I facebooked this article and just got a hug from my teenager, "Thanks Mom,for always having my back". He used to call me every day in high school at lunch because not one freaking kid would ever sit and eat with him. And every day he would tell me he loved me on the phone. I need to get off here,this whole thing has me a mess. I'm mad and sad,and more than a little discouraged.

Glad it helped. It actually popped up in my Twitter time line right when you posted your comment. There's been quite a bit of push back on this already.

340 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:15:06pm

the discussion at freeperville seems to revolve around whether the killer was influenced by violent video games, falling on one side or the other depending on whether the freeper is a video game fan or thinks video games are a particularly despicable, pornographic quasi-Marxist culture/industry. It’s just another kind of Hollywood. Let them take the hits they deserve

341 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:17:37pm

re: #323 Charles Johnson

What's weirder: He sorta looks like H.P. Lovecraft.

Image: Lovecraft1934.jpg

342 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:19:00pm

re: #337 A Mom Anon

thinking there were no more tears left in me

fooled again

343 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:19:01pm

re: #308 engineer cat

We now have the militia out as a requirement and well regulated (individuals & their guns) IN as a requirement.
For debate, we can talk all we want about the militia and the decision. The law now dictates that we may well regulate the access and the guns. I say that's a fair start. A recent handgun ban was overturned. In a stroke of judicial wisdom the decision is being stayed to give the state time to regulate. So far so good IMO.

344 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:19:50pm

re: #343 Political Atheist

How is a ban on handguns not regulation of arms?

345 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:19:56pm

Slain Sandy Hook Principal Was Devoted To Keeping Kids Safe, Say Administrators

Said Stomski: "When Dawn was the principal in our school system, we talked about this exact type of incident. She certainly was inspiring and put her children first, and it was no surprise to me that she came to them. She's actually a hero today.''

Hochsprung had written a letter to parents in the fall about tightening security measures, including an ID-checking policy for all new guests and a required trip to the main office when entering the building after 9:30 AM. In the letter, addressed to "Members Of Our Sandy Hook Family," Hochsprung explained: "Please understand that with nearly 700 students and over 1,000 parents representing 500... families, most parents will be asked to show identification."

Stomski added:

"We rehearsed [security/crisis protocol] and we talked about this after the Columbine incident, and ironically enough, one of the things we talked about is the reasons why people do that. I think if she was here today, one of the things that she would say is that to wait to find out somebody was troubled is too late. If she was here to speak, she would say that we as individuals need to reach out as our responsibility and try to reach out to these troubled people ahead of time.''

"A lot of children are alive today because of actions the teachers took," school superintendent Janet Robinson told Guthrie. Stories have already emerged about the heroic acts of a custodian, a fourth-grade teacher—even one young student who claimed to know karate. "It's OK. I'll lead the way out."

I'm angry and tearing up. I'm so tired of fake tough guy blathering.

346 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:22:03pm

re: #344 Obdicut

How is a ban on handguns not regulation of arms?

Did I say it was not? Don't think so. A court set aside a blanket handgun ban. I would refer you to their written decision for the legal rationale.

347 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:22:47pm

re: #344 Obdicut

How is a ban on handguns not regulation of arms?

General bans on handguns have been struck down by the Supreme Court in Heller vs. District of Columbia and MacDonald vs. Chicago. The Supreme Court has held them to violate citizens' 2nd Amendment rights.

348 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:23:42pm

See? Now this is the kind of thing that makes me smile on a Saturday.

Complaints early on in the routine of massively over-billing news outlets weren't acted on by the senior campaign officials who received them. And now, more than a month after Romney lost badly, whatever's left of his campaign is going to have to deal with requests to have every single charge over $200 explained in detail. That, my friends, is the campaign of Mitt Romney, turnaround expert, cost-cutter, efficient businessman.

Please, Republicans, tell me more about how we need an MBA president, a successful businessman to cute waste and manage government efficiently.

Yeah, charging $812/day per reporter for the privilege of covering Mitt during the campaign...that's makes a ton of sense.

349 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:24:13pm

re: #344 Obdicut

What might pass the legal challenge is a stricter regimen of training, storage and the background check for handguns.

350 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:25:35pm

re: #340 engineer cat

And what are they influenced by...? Sadly, if you mentioned how depraved and crude most of the programming is on the Fox networks, they'd probably just give you a blank stare.

351 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:25:35pm

re: #342 Capitalist Tool

thinking there were no more tears left in me

fooled again

My wife's from Westport, CT - about 20 miles away. She's busted into tears and sobbing a few times today. She read about Mike Huckabee this morning and that totally set her off - I think she called him a 'hateful bastard'...

352 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:26:23pm

re: #346 Political Atheist

Did I say it was not? Don't think so. A court set aside a blanket handgun ban. I would refer you to their written decision for the legal rationale.

You were positing it as the set setting the ban aside to allow the state to regulate. If the handgun ban is regulation, that doesn't make much sense.

353 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:27:43pm

re: #351 darthstar

My wife's from Westport, CT - about 20 miles away. She's busted into tears and sobbing a few times today. She read about Mike Huckabee this morning and that totally set her off - I think she called him a 'hateful bastard'...

Just don't show her Fischer's shitheaded tweets then...

354 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:27:45pm

re: #349 Political Atheist

What might pass the legal challenge is a stricter regimen of training, storage and the background check for handguns.

So a ban isn't regulation, then?

355 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:27:46pm

re: #351 darthstar

My wife's from Westport, CT - about 20 miles away. She's busted into tears and sobbing a few times today. She read about Mike Huckabee this morning and that totally set her off - I think she called him a 'hateful bastard'...

That Huckabee comment was trending today. I think it opened a lot of eyes.

356 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:28:51pm

re: #336 Obdicut

Are they in a gun safe?

Of course, except for what I have in place for home defense (and no, I don't have an AR-15 in every room!). There are no kids in my place, but I'm under no illusions about determined thieves.

357 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:29:07pm

re: #117 Minor_L

I have read all your comments, and I still don't understand your point. The biggest reason is that addressing DUI isn't any kind of political grenade, whereas talking about gun regulation is. Also, are you suggesting that regulation of drivers are currently regulated the same or less than gun ownership? Or that there are not massive efforts in many states to address DUI (especially on holidays)?

I want the see the freakout the first time the local or state police set up a gun control checkpoint on some random highway or by-way.

358 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:29:14pm

re: #356 Pawn of the Oppressor

Then I'd say you're good.

359 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:29:57pm

re: #349 Political Atheist

What might pass the legal challenge is a stricter regimen of training, storage and the background check for handguns.

Training is required in my state (OK) to receive a concealed carry license and it has a proficiency component- licensees must prove themselves a good shot.

The answer to the dilemma of guns in America lies in us becoming something more akin to Switzerland- fully steeped in the Constitutional mandate to keep firearms in the hands of individuals and attendant heritage thinking, but with an added solemnity of responsibility and complete training rigor.

360 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:30:00pm

re: #352 Obdicut

You were positing it as the set setting the ban aside to allow the state to regulate. If the handgun ban is regulation, that doesn't make much sense.

I do not understand the question. The court found one law to be too broad. It stayed the decision to give the state an opportunity to draft regulations that can pass legal muster.

361 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:31:24pm

re: #127 Gus

That's part of what I mean. A Bushmaster is designed to kill humans. A hunting rifle is designed to kill animals.

Well, my deer hunting rifle was designed to kill people. It's a re-purposed military arm. (Sport-converted KAR 98 that fires 8mm Mauser.)

362 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:31:46pm

re: #354 Obdicut

So a ban isn't regulation, then?

As far as it is regulation, it has been ruled to be unreasonable regulation.

363 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:32:13pm

re: #353 TedStriker

Just don't show her Fischer's shitheaded tweets then...

Not even. She doesn't get angry very easily, but Huckabee had her fuming this morning.

364 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:32:27pm

re: #357 Feline Fearless Leader

Searches without probable cause just to see who has a gun? Probable cause is supposed to be a main tenet of our checks and balances on police and citizens. That's not right in terms of the Patriot act, guns or anything else. Probable cause is essential as a check on authority.

365 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:32:32pm

re: #360 Political Atheist

I do not understand the question. The court found one law to be too broad. It stayed the decision to give the state an opportunity to draft regulations that can pass legal muster.

You said that regulation was clearly allowed. To me, a ban on handguns-- not being a total ban on guns-- is regulation. I'm asking why, if regulation is allowed, the court doesn't allow this. It seems to me that it's definitely not just that regulation is allowed, but there's some other level of test.

366 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:33:08pm

re: #349 Political Atheist

What might pass the legal challenge is a stricter regimen of training, storage and the background check for handguns.

Think the background check would be a big one. Require an evaluation by a psychiatrist as part of the process. Make somebody responsible in the chain for signing off on your mental health.

367 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:33:23pm

re: #361 Feline Fearless Leader

Well, my deer hunting rifle was designed to kill people. It's a re-purposed military arm. (Sport-converted KAR 98 that fires 8mm Mauser.)

Thing is, no one who's sane considers a 5-round bolt action rifle to be problematic.

368 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:34:54pm

re: #362 Dark_Falcon

As far as it is regulation, it has been ruled to be unreasonable regulation.

So, what is reasonable gun control in your opinion?

369 Patricia Kayden  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:34:57pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

First time I've laughed since this tragedy. Unfortunately, the idea of controlling guns (even machine guns) in the U.S. is treasonous. Sigh.

370 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:35:08pm

re: #361 Feline Fearless Leader

Well, my deer hunting rifle was designed to kill people. It's a re-purposed military arm. (Sport-converted KAR 98 that fires 8mm Mauser.)

Got my first deer with a military stock- condition 1891 Argentine Mauser. There are millions of such conversions as your sporterized Mauser and probably just as many in standard military trim like mine, often replete with all the original issue accessories.

371 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:35:13pm

re: #365 Obdicut

You said that regulation was clearly allowed. To me, a ban on handguns-- not being a total ban on guns-- is regulation. I'm asking why, if regulation is allowed, the court doesn't allow this. It seems to me that it's definitely not just that regulation is allowed, but there's some other level of test.

Yes I said the Supreme Court says regulation is allowed. Banning an entire class of guns from everyone at all times rather than some people at some places or times may be what makes the difference. Specificity would make all the difference.

372 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:36:13pm

re: #369 Patricia Kayden

First time I've laughed since this tragedy. Unfortunately, the idea of controlling guns (even machine guns) in the U.S. is treasonous. Sigh.

Where did you get that idea? When was the last time you or any of your friends bought a machine gun?

373 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:36:27pm

re: #369 Patricia Kayden

First time I've laughed since this tragedy. Unfortunately, the idea of controlling guns (even machine guns) in the U.S. is treasonous. Sigh.

"Machine guns" or automatic weapons are very tightly controlled by the feds. You need all kinds of licensing (and lots of money) to own one.

374 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:36:47pm

re: #371 Political Atheist

Yes I said the Supreme Court says regulation is allowed. Banning an entire class of guns from everyone at all times rather than some people at some places or times may be what makes the difference. Specificity would make all the difference.

Why?

375 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:39:02pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Should I link in the court decision itself? Let the judges writings be the best indication of their conclusion?

Or are you looking for my view as an individual?

376 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:39:06pm

Now is the time for reasonable gun-owners who want to continue to own weapons that make it really, really, really, really, really easy to kill large numbers of your fellow citizens to propose regulations yourselves. Strong regulations. It is not the time to push back and be defensive. It is time to take responsibility.

377 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:39:27pm

And to disassociate with the paranoid NRA.

378 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:41:17pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

So, what is reasonable gun control in your opinion?

I decline to answer.

379 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:42:20pm

Haha.

380 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:42:54pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

So, what is reasonable gun control in your opinion?

All rounds into the X-ring...

381 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:43:01pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

So, what is reasonable gun control in your opinion?

I'd take that up.

382 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:43:06pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

When you post an answer like that you might as well post what you really think.
Most would assume a non answer like that means 'no gun control at all is reasonable'.
;)

383 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:43:20pm

re: #381 Political Atheist

I'd take that up.

Go for it!

384 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:43:45pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

At least you are being consistant in declining to explain why you would downding a Harvard School of Public Health Study as well. Cowardly, but consistant.

385 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:44:44pm

re: #375 Political Atheist

Should I link in the court decision itself? Let the judges writings be the best indication of their conclusion?


Or are you looking for my view as an individual?

I'm pointing out that saying that regulation is allowed, saying that handgun bans are regulation, and then saying handgun bans are not allowed, is logically inconsistent.

Regulation is not allowed. Some regulation is allowed-- so far, very limited regulation is allowed.

386 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:45:18pm

re: #361 Feline Fearless Leader

Well, my deer hunting rifle was designed to kill people. It's a re-purposed military arm. (Sport-converted KAR 98 that fires 8mm Mauser.)

Get off my lawn!

//

387 Coracle  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:45:37pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

That's a total copout, and an example of why we have the status quo.

388 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:45:43pm

re: #386 Gus

Get off my lawn!

//

I go duck hunting with flak cannon.

389 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:46:36pm

re: #388 Varek Raith

I go duck hunting with flak cannon.

88s in every garage...

390 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:46:55pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

So, what is reasonable gun control in your opinion?

personally, i would ban humans from progressing past the bronze age technologically until such time that it can be established that we have a commensurate level of emotional maturity

391 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:47:03pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

As I recall, you believe that controlling guns will make America look weak to its 'enemies'.

Well, I bet the deaths of twenty first graders are making the terrorists quake in their boots now.

392 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:47:30pm

re: #383 Varek Raith

To begin with California is pretty strict. A fair model to begin with.

Also I'd like to see something like pilot's licenses. You start with a little plane you can fly after your basic license is approved. With more training you can fly more capable planes. Or with more training you can fly in more difficult circumstances like weather, Instrument Flight certified.

Staying a bit vague to be brief, but you may get my drift.

393 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:47:58pm

re: #392 Political Atheist

To begin with California is pretty strict. A fair model to begin with.

Also I'd like to see something like pilot's licenses. You start with a little plane you can fly after your basic license is approved. With more training you can fly more capable planes. Or with more training you can fly in more difficult circumstances like weather, Instrument Flight certified.

Staying a bit vague to be brief, but you may get my drift.

I can dig that.

394 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:48:25pm

re: #376 Obdicut

Now is the time for reasonable gun-owners who want to continue to own weapons that make it really, really, really, really, really easy to kill large numbers of your fellow citizens to propose regulations yourselves. Strong regulations. It is not the time to push back and be defensive. It is time to take responsibility.

How about an FBI background check for all gun purchases (this is the case for all but private sales, so expand to include private sales, meaning all private sales have to be conducted through a licensed gun dealer/FFL).

Significant training requirement in addition to current background check for concealed carry. Allow a CCW licensed individual to carry in more places (fewer gun free zones) including public/private schools.

Significant fines if your weapon isn't properly secured in your home and is subsequently used in a crime.

Bottom line is that if I am willing to die in the process I can kill a bunch of people with my guns or those of my choosing or I can drive my car in front of the school at pickup time and accomplish the same.

There are 11 million illegal immigrants in our country. There is no way to remove them. There are approximately 250 million firearms.

395 Patricia Kayden  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:48:42pm

re: #104 Randall Gross

270 million guns, our population is 314 million and just over half of that population is adult. So there's a gun + some for every single adult in the US.

So Americans need 270 million guns to protect themselves and for hunting? Really?

The horse is already out of the gate. Not sure what can be done at this point to change the pro-gun culture. How would you get those 270 million guns out of their owners' hands?

396 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:49:07pm

re: #361 oaktree

Well, my deer hunting rifle was designed to kill people. It's a re-purposed military arm. (Sport-converted KAR 98 that fires 8mm Mauser.)

My deer rifle is/was a 1942 Springfield .30-06 that belonged to my grandfather. Here's a picture of one...and after one of my dad's old patients (a lifelong gunsmith) put a new barrel on it for me when I was 16, I had him keep the Lyman peep sights...liked those better than a scope.

Image: 3312495.jpg

397 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:49:57pm

re: #385 Obdicut

I'm pointing out that saying that regulation is allowed, saying that handgun bans are regulation, and then saying handgun bans are not allowed, is logically inconsistent.

Regulation is not allowed. Some regulation is allowed-- so far, very limited regulation is allowed.

Blanket bans (an important difference) are out. To say regulation is allowed is not to say any regulation is allowed. You live in NYC right? I live in LA California. Neither place should be described as very limited gun regulation.

398 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:50:08pm

re: #394 Fart Knocker

Nobody has ever killed 26 people using a car.

399 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:51:08pm

re: #398 Obdicut

Nobody has ever killed 26 people using a car.

I could...but I won't

400 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:51:34pm

re: #396 darthstar

My deer rifle is/was a 1942 Springfield .30-06 that belonged to my grandfather. Here's a picture of one...and after one of my dad's old patients (a lifelong gunsmith) put a new barrel on it for me when I was 16, I had him keep the Lyman peep sights...liked those better than a scope.

Image: 3312495.jpg

That's really nice. I have a stock '03-A3 with the milspec peep sight and agree with you- really like it.

401 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:51:35pm

re: #364 Political Atheist

Searches without probable cause just to see who has a gun? Probable cause is supposed to be a main tenet of our checks and balances on police and citizens. That's not right in terms of the Patriot act, guns or anything else. Probable cause is essential as a check on authority.

Who said they'd search? They can just stop you and ask like any sobriety checkpoint works.

402 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:51:52pm

Geez, enough with the false equivalence between cars and guns.

403 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:52:20pm

re: #394 Fart Knocker

Significant training requirement in addition to current background check for concealed carry. Allow a CCW licensed individual to carry in more places (fewer gun free zones) including public/private schools.

The hell with your masturbatory fantasy of civilians engaging in gun battles with the 'bad guys'.

404 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:53:12pm

re: #402 Varek Raith

Geez, enough with the false equivalence between cars and guns.

NOOOOOOOOO! Because it is a known fact that you can't begin addressing ONE problem without addressing ALL problems at the same time!

405 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:53:12pm

re: #382 Varek Raith

When you post an answer like that you might as well post what you really think.
Most would assume a non answer like that means 'no gun control at all is reasonable'.
;)

It's a cowardly reply from a couch warrior. Expect nothing more. Sorry, Dark, but I know your priorities lie with where you think your party is. Feel free to decline to answer me as well. I won't believe you anyway.

406 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:53:22pm

re: #388 Varek Raith

I go duck hunting with flak cannon.

Ah, taking a page from the pheasant hunt in _The Magic Christian_?

407 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:53:29pm

re: #401 Feline Fearless Leader

Seems useless. At least a drunk has booze on his breath. Without a search how will a cop find a gun in a coat, or pocket or glove compartment? Just by asking?

408 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:53:38pm

re: #397 Political Atheist

Blanket bans (an important difference) are out. To say regulation is allowed is not to say any regulation is allowed. You live in NYC right? I live in LA California. Neither place should be described as very limited gun regulation.

I live in OKC and here you can walk around packing heat either in plain sight or tucked away.

409 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:54:15pm

re: #400 Capitalist Tool

That's really nice. I have a stock '03-A3 with the milspec peep sight and agree with you- really like it.

We did a lot of hunting in thick brush when I was a kid. Peeps are the only way to go in that crap.

410 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:54:43pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

Why am I not surprised at your pusillanimous non-answer?

411 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:54:46pm

re: #402 Varek Raith

Geez, enough with the false equivalence between cars and guns.

Using a car to hijack an airliner sounds like a difficult proposition. //

412 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:55:43pm

re: #407 Political Atheist

Seems useless. At least a drunk has booze on his breath. Without a search how will a cop find a gun in a coat, or pocket or glove compartment? Just by asking?

Ah, sort of like the TSA requiring folks to take their shoes off in airports.
//

413 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:55:49pm

re: #411 Gus

Using a car to hijack an airliner sounds like a difficult proposition. //

Well, let's not jump to that conclusion just yet.
Let me work out the math...

414 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:55:56pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

So, what is reasonable gun control in your opinion?

A few basics.
I would endorse a licensing requirement for gun owners. It is only common sense. The cultists will howl like stuck pigs, but I am fed up with their sick fantasies holding the rest of the country hostage to an armed mob.

I would also re-visit the assault weapons ban. In the past, I have condemned this as a useless gesture based largely on cosmetics (though the ban on large magazines has practical value). Cosmetics seem to matter though when the subject of mass shootings comes up. Yes, the maniacs could use traditional wood and blue guns to similar effect if they knew how. They rarely do use such guns though. The very appearance of the so-called assault weapons seems to be a powerful component of the fantasy the shooters are acting out, perhaps even an incitement.

415 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:56:34pm
416 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:58:38pm

re: #413 Varek Raith

Well, let's not jump to that conclusion just yet.
Let me work out the math...

Hmm, bets that's part of the "Transporter IV" plot. They've already put cars onto moving trains, so a plane or ship has to be next.

417 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:59:02pm

re: #394 Fart Knocker

How about an FBI background check for all gun purchases (this is the case for all but private sales, so expand to include private sales, meaning all private sales have to be conducted through a licensed gun dealer/FFL).

Significant training requirement in addition to current background check for concealed carry. Allow a CCW licensed individual to carry in more places (fewer gun free zones) including public/private schools.

Significant fines if your weapon isn't properly secured in your home and is subsequently used in a crime.

Bottom line is that if I am willing to die in the process I can kill a bunch of people with my guns or those of my choosing or I can drive my car in front of the school at pickup time and accomplish the same.

There are 11 million illegal immigrants in our country. There is no way to remove them. There are approximately 250 million firearms.

*headdesk*

418 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:59:20pm

re: #394 Fart Knocker

Allow a CCW licensed individual to carry in more places (fewer gun free zones) including public/private schools

but suppose you look threatening to me with your firearm and i shoot you because i imagine you are about to shoot me?

419 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:59:25pm

Let me propose this, again in line with training and certification procedures-If you want to encourage a responsible person to go with something other than a gun, lets find a way to allow taser pistols in the home as an option.

If you don't like that device then let's talk about options for people who do have the will, means, and responsible mind to take responsibility for self defense tools.

Want to reduce guns in homes? Increase effective options.

420 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:00:50pm

bottom line, an armed society is a society where anybody can shoot you anytime anyplace for any reason

421 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:01:01pm

re: #361 Feline Fearless Leader

Well, my deer hunting rifle was designed to kill people. It's a re-purposed military arm. (Sport-converted KAR 98 that fires 8mm Mauser.)

My gun was forged from a meteoritic alloy by dark elves and imbued with diverse enchantments. It has been converted for the hunting of Orcs and other small game.

422 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:02:44pm

re: #418 engineer cat

but suppose you look threatening to me with your firearm and i shoot you because i imagine you are about to shoot me?

You seem fuzzy on the definition of concealed.

423 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:02:45pm

re: #418 engineer cat

but suppose you look threatening to me with your firearm and i shoot you because i imagine you are about to shoot me?

Just pray that you're in a state with a favorable "stand your ground" law, like Florida...

424 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:04:10pm

Yes, that's the answer!
We just need a shoot out at schools!
Wait...

425 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:06:07pm

re: #422 Fart Knocker

You seem fuzzy on the definition of concealed.

concealed is a relative term

if we were all carrying "concealed" weapons, we would all be able to spot other people's "concealed" weapons in a heartbeat

426 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:06:36pm

re: #423 TedStriker

Just pray that you're in a state with a favorable "stand your ground" law, like Florida...

but what about you? you'd be dead

427 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:06:56pm

re: #425 engineer cat

concealed is a relative term

if we were all carrying "concealed" weapons, we would all be able to spot other people's "concealed" weapons in a heartbeat

Have you ever carried a handgun concealed? I have.

428 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:07:20pm

re: #356 Pawn of the Oppressor

Of course, except for what I have in place for home defense (and no, I don't have an AR-15 in every room!). There are no kids in my place, but I'm under no illusions about determined thieves.

You have guns in place for home defence.

Is that really warranted?

What is the probability that your home will be invaded in such a way that those weapons will be useful?

I don't need a number just a gut feeling somewhere between highly likely and not very likely.

429 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:07:37pm

re: #418 engineer cat

but suppose you look threatening to me with your firearm and i shoot you because i imagine you are about to shoot me?

You'd have an uphill battle proving the threat was legitimate. Most likely your fears would be found to be unreasonable and you'd be packed away to prison.

430 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:08:55pm

re: #427 Fart Knocker

Have you ever carried a handgun concealed? I have.

unless you have a handgun shaped cavity on your body, it was more obvious that you were carrying it than perhaps you thought

431 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:09:03pm

re: #428 b_sharp

Why should be have to justify himself? He's not a crook or the kind of angry asshole who carries out mass shootings.

432 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:09:08pm

re: #428 b_sharp

You have guns in place for home defence.

Is that really warranted?

What is the probability that your home will be invaded in such a way that those weapons will be useful?

I don't need a number just a gut feeling somewhere between highly likely and not very likely.

I'd rate the likely hood in my home between "seat belt" and "airbag".

433 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:09:53pm

I have another proposal-Gun buys/disposal by local authorities. Make it easy for anyone with an unwanted gun from grandpa to get rid of it. Additionally make it easy to sell to an FFL dealer, who could only sell to a responsible person with proper storage.

434 makeitstop  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:09:54pm

Connecticut school shooting: Westboro Baptist Church planning to picket

Why can't these assholes just stay home and leave good people to grieve in peace? They suck.

435 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:10:12pm

re: #429 Dark_Falcon

You'd have an uphill battle proving the threat was legitimate. Most likely your fears would be found to be unreasonable and you'd be packed away to prison.

but the other person who imagined that they were making themselves safer by promoting the universal carrying of weapons for protection

would be dead

that was my point

436 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:10:14pm

re: #430 engineer cat

unless you have a handgun shaped cavity on your body, it was more obvious that you were carrying it than perhaps you thought

Only if you are aware I am carrying and trying to tell. Cover garments and all.

437 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:10:49pm

re: #436 Fart Knocker

Only if you are aware I am carrying and trying to tell. Cover garments and all.

what do you do on a warm day?

438 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:10:57pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

To be fair, D_F doesn't want the BATFE trying to do anything about straw sales. That's kind of an answer.

Nothing. I want them to go through the motions and not get any big ideas.

439 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:11:36pm

re: #437 engineer cat

what do you do on a warm day?

Wear my shirt outside my belt. Carrying inside the waist of my pants and it is a small pistol (that's what she said!!).

440 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:11:52pm

re: #390 engineer cat

personally, i would ban humans from progressing past the bronze age technologically until such time that it can be established that we have a commensurate level of emotional maturity

We're just heavily armed chimpanzees. I'm wishing we resolved conflicts the same way paniscus does.

441 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:11:53pm

re: #408 Capitalist Tool

I live in OKC and here you can walk around packing heat either in plain sight or tucked away.

I'm in Norman...you are correct..kind of nuts

442 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:12:29pm

re: #435 engineer cat

but the other person who imagined that they were making themselves safer by promoting the universal carrying of weapons for protection

would be dead

that was my point

There's limits to what the law can do.

443 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:13:29pm

re: #439 Fart Knocker

Wear my shirt outside my belt. Carrying inside the waist of my pants and it is a small pistol (that's what she said!!).

well, check yourself in a mirror next time and observe how easy it is to see that there is something under your shirt

444 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:13:35pm

re: #441 A Man for all Seasons

I'm in Norman...you are correct..kind of nuts

Yes, I'm kind of nuts, but why go off topic?

445 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:14:50pm

re: #443 engineer cat

well, check yourself in a mirror next time and observe how easy it is to see that there is something under your shirt

Cellphone? Colostomy bag? Other medical device? Only my tailor and I know for sure!

446 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:15:44pm

Yep, back to the same old 'MOAR GUNZ IS TEH ANSER!"

447 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:15:49pm

re: #445 Fart Knocker

Cellphone? Colostomy bag? Other medical device? Only my tailor and I know for sure!

Weirdly, it's not reassuring to those of us who don't have guns that there may be people walking around with a concealed weapon and we have no way to tell it. Especially after Zimmerman.

448 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:16:49pm

re: #442 Dark_Falcon

There's limits to what the law can do.

my point is this:

if you think that we would be safer if we all carried weapons for protection, consider that you yourself might be the person that somebody else feels that they must protect themselves against by shooting you dead

even if it is only because they are having a psychotic hallucination, because you have promoted a society where everybody is armed all they have to do is reach for their weapon - because everybody carries them all the time now, of course - and shoot you

an armed society is a society where lots and lots of people get shot dead

449 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:17:07pm

re: #447 Obdicut

Weirdly, it's not reassuring to those of us who don't have guns that there may be people walking around with a concealed weapon and we have no way to tell it. Especially after Zimmerman.

Don't sit on them and pound their head into the ground and you'll probably be ok.

450 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:17:09pm

During the Giffords shooting a guy with a conceal carry nearly shot the wrong guy.

451 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:17:21pm

re: #431 Dark_Falcon

Why should be have to justify himself? He's not a crook or the kind of angry asshole who carries out mass shootings.

Shut up D_F.

I'm just trying to get information. I'm trying to understand something.

452 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:17:50pm

Okay I said some regulations I would support. Trust me I'll take some crap from some gun pals. That's life.

Given what we see including the tragedies-

I'm asking the strong gun control (or ban) advocates what they might allow a responsible trained person to have at home, carry on their person, and at their business for "last ditch bad guy with a gun" defense. 3 shades of the same question to allow for different answers like "a shotgun at home and no guns for carry ever"

Obdicut?

Charles?

What is appropriate for a person who might have a serious stalker or robbery problem?

453 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:18:15pm

re: #445 Fart Knocker

Cellphone? Colostomy bag? Other medical device? Only my tailor and I know for sure!

you really think other people can't tell when you are carrying a weapon, don't you

454 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:18:24pm

re: #432 Fart Knocker

I'd rate the likely hood in my home between "seat belt" and "airbag".

When was the last time your's or a neighbour's house was broken into?

455 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:18:48pm

re: #454 b_sharp

When was the last time your's or a neighbour's house was broken into?

Last time the airbag in my car deployed.

456 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:19:00pm

re: #453 engineer cat

you really think other people can't tell when you are carrying a weapon, don't you

Yep

457 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:19:32pm

re: #449 Capitalist Tool

Don't sit on them and pound their head into the ground and you'll probably be ok.

What if they were just stalking me for blocks? Am I allowed to try to defend myself against the creepy guy following me around, or is self-defense a right reserved for gun-havers?

458 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:20:37pm

Schools now need heavily armed guards.
What a country!

459 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:20:38pm

re: #452 Political Atheist

Okay I said some regulations I would support. Trust me I'll take some crap from some gun pals. That's life.

But that's the part that's so unnerving; that ordinary 'gun pals' will give you shit because you favor regulations. I do not get why ordinary gun owners aren't very strongly in favor of regulations.

460 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:22:18pm

re: #444 Capitalist Tool

Yes, I'm kind of nuts, but why go off topic?

Oklahoma.. The Wild West of 2012. Nothing really changes does it?
The only thing you notice here is I can't wear my 9mm into Banks, Bars and most stores.. What a rip-off!
/

461 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:22:35pm

re: #456 Fart Knocker

Yep

well, i think i look like cary grant, but i don't make life or death assumptions based on it

462 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:22:41pm

re: #457 Obdicut

What if they were just stalking me for blocks? Am I allowed to try to defend myself against the creepy guy following me around, or is self-defense a right reserved for gun-havers?

Just get a restraining order. I heard they work great!

463 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:23:10pm

re: #461 engineer cat

well, i think i look like cary grant, but i don't make life or death assumptions based on it

How many folks carrying concealed have you outed? Got a percent in mind?

464 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:23:44pm

re: #459 Obdicut

But that's the part that's so unnerving; that ordinary 'gun pals' will give you shit because you favor regulations. I do not get why ordinary gun owners aren't very strongly in favor of regulations.

Because you're not really a man if you can't brandish your sword, that's why.

465 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:24:10pm

re: #457 Obdicut

What if they were just stalking me for blocks? Am I allowed to try to defend myself against the creepy guy following me around, or is self-defense a right reserved for gun-havers?

For your own fair perspective-
Have you read the whole training curriculum about CCW from a really tough school like Front Sight? Seen how strict the legal use training can and should be? Or the NRA? Really thorough and strict. Not to defend the NRA it's just they are very thorough in instructor standards. As strict as they are over the top in rhetoric.

If not I think you should see the actual state of the art so to speak.

466 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:24:44pm

Number of massacres stopped by conceal carry....
Zip.
Nada.
None.

Number of people accidentally killed by firearms.
A scary high number.

Only if we had more guns.

467 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:25:31pm

re: #464 dragonath

Because you're not really a man if you can't brandish your sword, that's why.

You mean gun.
I can't even get an open carry for mine.
But I could if I had a gun.
America!

468 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:26:26pm

re: #466 Varek Raith

Number of massacres stopped by conceal carry....
Zip.
Nada.
None.

Number of people accidentally killed by firearms.
A scary high number.

Only if we had more guns.

Linky

469 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:26:35pm

re: #457 Obdicut

What if they were just stalking me for blocks? Am I allowed to try to defend myself against the creepy guy following me around, or is self-defense a right reserved for gun-havers?

Guns are the lawgivers.

470 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:26:56pm

re: #457 Obdicut

What if they were just stalking me for blocks? Am I allowed to try to defend myself against the creepy guy following me around, or is self-defense a right reserved for gun-havers?

No. You're supposed to magically recognize that a person with a concealed gun, should you notice is, has the best intentions in mind. Zero chance they're a nutter or a violent asshole. And you're totally in a position to ask "hey is that a concealed firearm you've got there?" because again, zero chance you're in a threatening position.

But armed people...hey, armed civilians have perfect threat discernment because of the literal hours they've spent in a safety course. Not like anyone's ever crept downstairs and capped their wife while she was sneaking a snack, or shot a kid in a car in a parking lot because there music was too loud. So you can totally trust the judgement of that armed stranger.

471 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:27:08pm

re: #460 A Man for all Seasons

Oklahoma.. The Wild West of 2012. Nothing really changes does it?
The only thing you notice here is I can't wear my 9mm into Banks, Bars and most stores.. What a rip-off!
/

We've been over this. You don't have a 9mm. You have a womanly .380 that shoots hugs and kisses.

472 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:27:10pm

re: #468 Fart Knocker

Linky

A cop.
Got a, you know, normal citizen?

473 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:28:33pm

re: #472 Varek Raith

A cop.
Got a, you know, normal citizen?

Linky2

474 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:28:36pm

Also, I'd like to see the stat for conceal carry killing bad guys and accidental gun deaths with said weapons.

475 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:29:28pm

re: #465 Political Atheist

I'm sure the best-case scenario is great. I'm worried about people like Zimmerman. Who had a CCW.

476 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:29:57pm

re: #463 Fart Knocker

How many folks carrying concealed have you outed? Got a percent in mind?

people who carry sidearms usually do not stick them in their belts, which is probably the most obvious way to carry them. usually what you see is the way the suitcoat hangs in a characteristically deformed fashion because of the gun in the holster under the arm

477 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:29:58pm

re: #471 goddamnedfrank

We've been over this. You don't have a 9mm. You have a womanly .380 that shoots hugs and kisses.

9mm? Commie metric gun.

.357

478 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:30:49pm

re: #473 Fart Knocker

Linky2

A Timeline Of Mass Shootings In The US Since Columbine
Simple, cold-hearted math.

479 Patricia Kayden  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:32:30pm

Yes, I am wrong re my comment about machine guns. They are heavily monitored and hard to legally own (although ownership is not impossible). I should have said that getting gun control legislation passed seems almost impossible given the political climate and the way in which the 2nd amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court.

480 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:32:43pm

More guns is clearly the answer!
/
Homicide, suicide, and unintentional firearm fatality: comparing the United States with other high-income countries, 2003.

CONCLUSIONS:

The United States has far higher rates of firearm deaths-firearm homicides, firearm suicides, and unintentional firearm deaths compared with other high-income countries. The US overall suicide rate is not out of line with these countries, but the United States is an outlier in terms of our overall homicide rate.

481 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:33:36pm

re: #472 Varek Raith

Real ordinary people do sometimes defend themselves or other people with a gun. Not as much as the Lott study says but far and away more than zero. We should all be able to agree that happens. We just should not pretend it's hundreds of millions of times a year or so little as to not matter. The survivors matter as much as us lucky folks that never get in a lethal jam. The number, it's implications all fair game to argue of course.

482 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:33:53pm

More guns = More gun deaths.
Fucking amazing eh?

483 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:34:16pm

here, for example, is a picture of secret service agents protecting president obama

see the guns?

484 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:34:35pm

re: #480 Varek Raith

RESULTS:

The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries. For US males, firearm homicide rates were 22.0 times higher, and for US females, firearm homicide rates were 11.4 times higher. The US firearm suicide rates were 5.8 times higher than in the other countries, though overall suicide rates were 30% lower. The US unintentional firearm deaths were 5.2 times higher than in the other countries. Among these 23 countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86% of women killed by firearms were US women, and 87% of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were US children.

485 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:35:12pm

re: #466 Varek Raith

Number of massacres stopped by conceal carry....
Zip.
Nada.
None.

Nope, there was one.

On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a former sworn Minneapolis police officer and a church member acting as security. Murray then took his own life.

As an interesting side note, in 2011 Assam said she was asked by the Church leadership to leave New Life on account of her coming out as a lesbian.

486 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:35:43pm

re: #484 Varek Raith

We're number one.

487 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:35:51pm

re: #485 goddamnedfrank

Nope, there was one.

As an interesting side note, in 2011 Assam said she was asked by the Church leadership to leave New Life on account of her coming out as a lesbian.

Ok, retracted.

488 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:36:52pm

re: #471 goddamnedfrank

We've been over this. You don't have a 9mm. You have a womanly .380 that shoots hugs and kisses.

re: #477 Decatur Deb

9mm? Commie metric gun.

.357

Hoops has a Walther PPK in 9mm Short/.380 ACP, IIRC.

489 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:37:41pm

re: #488 TedStriker

Hoops has A Walther PPK in 9mm Short/.380 ACP, IIRC.

I have a 9mm and a .45. 9mm is cheaper to shoot.

490 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:38:12pm

re: #488 TedStriker

re: #477 Decatur Deb

Hoops has a Walther PPK in 9mm Short/.380 ACP, IIRC.

You keepin' a list?

*eyes you suspiciously*

491 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:40:01pm

re: #391 Renaissance_Man

As I recall, you believe that controlling guns will make America look weak to its 'enemies'.

Well, I bet the deaths of twenty first graders are making the terrorists quake in their boots now.

Actually, it may. It certainly sends the message that we care so much about our guns that even the massacre of 20 six-year-olds won't get us to re-examine our gun policy.

Lord knows our allies think we're collectively batshit about them.

492 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:40:02pm

re: #477 Decatur Deb

9mm? Commie metric gun.

Europellet

493 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:40:15pm

re: #490 Four More Tears

You keepin' a list?

*eyes you suspiciously*

Just paying attention...

494 Fart Knocker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:41:22pm

Later Honcos!

495 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:41:24pm

re: #475 Obdicut

I'm sure the best-case scenario is great. I'm worried about people like Zimmerman. Who had a CCW.

I too worry about people making mistakes like GZ made. I agree with you there. I also would like you to understand that good training ( the kind to require) is not about the best case scenario. It's about the spectrum of threats and responses. With plenty of room for the answer that says leave the gun alone and get the eff out of there. The "stay in the damn truck" part.

To understand where we need to go we should well understand where we are. In terms of training and all existing law. And how well or poorly those laws get applied.

496 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:41:36pm

re: #471 goddamnedfrank

We've been over this. You don't have a 9mm. You have a womanly .380 that shoots hugs and kisses.

LoL it's a collectors 007 9mm. I've never fired it..It looks really cool in my holster though and when I put it on I look really awesome like a secret spy.
//
It was a pain in the ass to get registered..I waited 5 days and heard nothing..I stopped by the gun store and complained. Hey I've worked for the DOD and have a top secret clearance..See my dang red badge!
The old man said, Well that's your problem..The FBI has to check out everything about you young man.
So some guy that walks in and buy a gun and waits 5 days and get his gun.. I have a TS badge issued by the Feds..I have to end up waiting for weeks cause the Gov't doesn't quite trust me?
pretty much..We'll call you

497 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:41:38pm

re: #492 Capitalist Tool

Europellet

Still has .023 caliber on the .357

///

498 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:41:54pm

re: #490 Four More Tears

You keepin' a list?

*eyes you suspiciously*

...Santa?!!

499 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:42:22pm

re: #488 TedStriker

re: #477 Decatur Deb

Hoops has a Walther PPK in 9mm Short/.380 ACP, IIRC.

Yes I know. I was teasing him. This being the internet, the only thing .380 is good for is distressing jeans. Anything less than .45 ACP exploding ammunition is like offering your target a warm cup of cocoa and a blowjob.

500 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:42:31pm

re: #484 Varek Raith

RESULTS:

The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries. For US males, firearm homicide rates were 22.0 times higher, and for US females, firearm homicide rates were 11.4 times higher. The US firearm suicide rates were 5.8 times higher than in the other countries, though overall suicide rates were 30% lower. The US unintentional firearm deaths were 5.2 times higher than in the other countries. Among these 23 countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86% of women killed by firearms were US women, and 87% of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were US children.

The Founders (Not DS9 :P) would be proud!

501 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:43:00pm

re: #499 goddamnedfrank

Yes I know. I was teasing him. This being the internet, the only thing .380 is good for is distressing jeans. Anything less than .45 ACP exploding ammunition is like offering your target a warm cup of cocoa and a blowjob.

Stellar converters or GTFO.

502 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:44:41pm

re: #499 goddamnedfrank

Yes I know. I was teasing him. This being the internet, the only thing .380 is good for is distressing jeans. Anything less than .45 ACP exploding ammunition is like offering your target a warm cup of cocoa and a blowjob.

Cocoa and a blowjob, huh?

Doesn't sound so bad...unless you're the one giving them.

///

503 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:45:32pm

re: #491 Mattand

Actually, it may. It certainly sends the message that we care so much about our guns that even the massacre of 20 six-year-olds won't get us to re-examine our gun policy.

Lord knows our allies think we're collectively batshit about them.

US Government's program to foster gun ownership and marksmanship through civilian sales of military rifles:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

They're sellin' us gunz, not coming for them.

504 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:47:17pm

re: #503 Decatur Deb

US Government's program to foster gun ownership and marksmanship through civilian sales of military rifles:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

They're sellin' us gunz, not coming for them.

Fool!
Don't your see?!?!
THAT'S PART OF THE CONSPIRACY TO TAKE OUR GUNS!11!

505 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:47:36pm

re: #501 Varek Raith

Stellar converters or GTFO.

Aren't plants stellar converters?

Oh, you meant THOSE stellar converters. O_O

506 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:47:55pm

re: #505 Feline Fearless Leader

Aren't plants stellar converters?

Oh, you meant THOSE stellar converters. O_O

Hand held ones no less!

507 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:56:28pm

re: #474 Varek Raith

Also, I'd like to see the stat for conceal carry killing bad guys and accidental gun deaths with said weapons.

That wouldn't tell the whole story because there are a many cases where concealed carry firearms have prevented or stopped a crime with the armed citizen actually having to fire the weapon. Others end with the bad guy
wounded, not dead.

508 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:56:58pm

re: #459 Obdicut

But that's the part that's so unnerving; that ordinary 'gun pals' will give you shit because you favor regulations. I do not get why ordinary gun owners aren't very strongly in favor of regulations.

Instructors like D-L & I who have the liability of hundreds of students that you or instructors you certify taught are more conservative than ordinary twice a year recreational shooters. Um maybe conservative is not the best word to use here today... I'm a strict & hard man as goes with gun related responsibilities. I wish you could see the range officers we trained work. You might feel less worried. My super stern approach is pretty common in CCW training circles.

509 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:57:53pm

re: #508 Political Atheist

I will not be comforted by any number of responsible gun owners as long as the number of irresponsible gun owners remains large, and it does.

510 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:01:53pm

re: #509 Obdicut

I will not be comforted by any number of responsible gun owners as long as the number of irresponsible gun owners remains large, and it does.

Point taken. We both want to cut that number. So I take it you have not seen a CCW training course materials in full? Right?

If we are to take up new regulations for home use, and presumably separately CCW regulations would you want to see something like that in it's entirety? A good strong example of a strict training regimen?

511 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:22:41pm

re: #503 Decatur Deb

US Government's program to foster gun ownership and marksmanship through civilian sales of military rifles:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

They're sellin' us gunz, not coming for them.

This administration has also reversed the long- standing tradition of the DCM selling rifles to competitive shooters in recognized clubs, by blocking a huge sale of M1 Garands, etc being returned from South Korea.
Link

512 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:08:41am

re: #28 Targetpractice

I couldn't trust myself to shoot another human being, even if it was to save my own life.

I'd rather not be put to the test. But people generally will fight when cornered and if there's any sort of chance. To surrender, when you might have fought and won, is not only a form of suicide, it's a form of manslaughter. Because the rampage killer won't stop with you, unless you stop him.

One has a duty to fight. Others' lives are also at stake.

513 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:16:42am

re: #457 Obdicut

What if they were just stalking me for blocks? Am I allowed to try to defend myself against the creepy guy following me around, or is self-defense a right reserved for gun-havers?

Assaulting someone because he's following you and maybe asking you questions like he's some sort of neighborhood watch guy isn't exactly self defense.

Banging his head on the pavement goes beyond simple assault. You're not trying to get him to lay off. You want him knocked out or dead. And how is he to know which?

514 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:23:27am

re: #46 Targetpractice

You're right, we can deal with the gun culture. First part of it is dealing with the argument that gun ownership is an inalienable right. Such as requiring persons applying for a gun license to demonstrate a need for it. Or to require that the applicant undergo a psych eval as well as a criminal background check. And setting a limit on the number of guns a person may own at any one time.

There is one way to deal with the argument that gun ownership is an inalienable right...amend the constitution.

Gun ownership can be regulated. People who have demonstrated by their conduct that they are not fit to own a gun lose their right. Mental illness could be one of the disqualifiers. Like, the first one?

People who cannot, or will not, learn basic gun safety, forfeit the right. Large magazines, tommy guns, etc. all this can quite legitimately be regulated. We could maybe even make it so that firearms came with password protection, or RFID protection, or something, so that they'd only work for the owner. All sorts of technological options are open.

But the public at large just has the basic right to own firearms for home defense. Unless you can work a way to make a nullity of inconvenient provisions in the constitution.


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