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Amazon Deal of the Day - Canon EOS T4i 18MP Camera w/Lens and Accessories - 40% Off!

Canon EOS Rebel T4i 18.0 MP CMOS Digital SLR With 18-55mm EF-S IS II Lens
Technology • Views: 25,880

Canon EOS Rebel T4i 18.0 MP CMOS Digital SLR With 18-55mm EF-S IS II Lens: CANON: Camera & Photo

Product Features

Style: with 18-55mm EF-S IS II Lens

18.0 Megapixel CMOS (APS-C) sensor, 14-bit A/D conversion, ISO 100-12800; expandable to 25600 (H) for shooting from bright to dim light and high performance DIGIC 5 Image Processor for exceptional image quality and speed

High speed continuous shooting up to 5.0 fps allows you to capture all the action

Improved autofocus performance with a 9-point all cross-type AF system (including a high-precision dual-cross f/2.8 center point), and new Hybrid CMOS AF increases autofocus speed when shooting photos and movies in Live View

Enhanced EOS Full HD Movie mode with Movie Servo AF for continuous focus tracking of moving subjects, manual exposure control and multiple frame rates (1080: 30p (29.97) / 24p (23.976) / 25p, 720: 60p (59.94) / 50p, 480: 30p (29.97) / 25p)

New 3.0-inch Vari-angle Touch Screen Clear View LCD monitor II (approximately 1,040,000 dots) with smudge-resistant coating features multi-touch operation and Touch AF for an easy and intuitive experience, flexible positioning, and clear viewing even when outdoors

Amazon offers the Canon EOS Rebel T4i 18-Megapixel Digital SLR Camera with the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Lens, model no. 6558B003, bundled with the AmazonBasics Backpack for SLR Cameras and Accessories and Transcend 16GB Class 10 SDHC Flash Memory Card for $640.50. At final checkout, it drops to $599 with free shipping.

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236 comments

1 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:32:05pm

It never fails to amaze me how many technologies I saw become obsolete in my lifetime. But camera film has to be one of the biggest ones.

2 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:33:45pm

This is a pretty awesome deal for this package - it would cost well over $1000 for the whole kit at most other places. If I didn't already have a good DSLR I'd be sorely tempted.

3 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:40:49pm

Anyone have a live link to Obama in Newport?

Will it be televised?

4 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:48:28pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

The image quality on that camera is up there with my now slightly dated 7D. For the money it's amazing.

5 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:53:33pm

Sundays With The Christianists: A ‘World History’ Textbook That May Not Know About Art, But Knows What God Likes

By the 20th century many artists had accepted the liberal philosophies of the age and rejected absolute values; and the works of such artists reflected their attitude. For example, in the style known as cubism, artists such as Spanish painter Pablo Picasso emphasized random geometric forms and perspectives in their works, hoping to create a new “reality” in the viewer’s mind.

...

The liberal philosophies of existentialism and Freudianism held a strong influence over modern art. For example, in the style known as dadaism, artists believed that the universe was controlled totally by chance. Thus, the Dadaists promoted paintings, sculptures, and poetry that delighted in the fantastic, the absurd, and the random; to the Dadaists, God, man, and reason are all dead.

Extra creepy this week, what with the eery similarity to that famous excoriation of "degenerate art."

6 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:54:00pm

re: #3 Stanghazi

This is the only thing I have been able to find. There may be something else out there.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

7 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:54:12pm

Speaking of shopping-
D_L got her present early. New Kenmore fridge-22 cu ft, bottom pull out drawer freezer. Delivering Dec 24th.

8 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:55:55pm

re: #7 Political Atheist

No pun intended. That is cool.

9 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:56:49pm

Damn, I just realized that I passed the 10K comments mark some time fairly recently and didn't even notice.

At this rate I'll be at 12K by my 3rd anniversary. That's 4K/yr. I clearly spend wayyyy too much time here. O_o

10 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:58:56pm

a society armed with Canon EOS T4i 18MP Cameras w/Lens and Accessories is a society with a high pixel density

11 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:59:33pm

The mere sighting of a CCW permit holder makes bad guys commit suicide, they don't even have to shoot!!!

12 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:03:02pm

re: #9 CuriousLurker

Damn, I just realized that I passed the 10K comments mark some time fairly recently and didn't even notice.

At this rate I'll be at 12K by my 3rd anniversary. That's 4K/yr. I clearly spend wayyyy too much time here. O_o

Too much Curious and not so much Lurker.

Just type faster.

13 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:07:50pm

re: #12 wrenchwench

Too much Curious and not so much Lurker.

Just type faster.

LOL!

I was thinking that really don't comment all that much, but then I see people like you have been here 8 years and have 25K and... Sheesh.

14 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:08:59pm

I am still getting accustomed to this MacBook Pro. I have an appointment with the Genius Bar on Tuesday.

15 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:09:11pm

re: #11 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Embedded content]

It's another Tuscon: Guy with a concealed gun could have fired, made a decision not to, and probably prevented another tragedy that day.

But wasn't this mall a "gun-free zone"? That's what all the wingnuts have told me.//

16 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:09:23pm

re: #13 CuriousLurker

LOL!

I was thinking that really don't comment all that much, but then I see people like you have been here 8 years and have 25K and... Sheesh.

And those are the ones I actually post. Sometimes, like today, I start to leave a comment and then change my mind and trash it.

17 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:09:57pm

re: #14 PhillyPretzel

I am still getting accustomed to this MacBook Pro. I have an appointment with the Genius Bar on Tuesday.

What's the problem? Been working with Apple stuff for a while here.

18 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:10:45pm

re: #14 PhillyPretzel

I am still getting accustomed to this MacBook Pro. I have an appointment with the Genius Bar on Tuesday.

I got a MBP last year. I love it, but it's a whole different experience. I'm still not completely used to it because I use my PC for most of my work related stuff.

19 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:11:33pm

Is Hollywood Poised to Slander George Washington?

They’re working on a TV series—with complete artistic license—showing the father of our country hopping in bed with his best friend’s wife.

i hear they even go so far as to propose that he was a warm blooded mammal

20 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:12:39pm

re: #16 CuriousLurker

And those are the ones I actually post. Sometimes, like today, I start to leave a comment and then change my mind and trash it.

I started out very slowly. It was rather intimidating back then. And I used to delete 3 out of every four comments I typed. I think I'm below 1 out of 4 now.

I had to delete a joke yesterday. It will probably be too soon for it for a couple of years.

21 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:13:01pm

re: #19 engineer cat

An alternate view of Washington:

22 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:13:09pm

re: #17 Mattand

I am going to get a driver for my old HP Printer installed. I am also looking for a good anti-glare screen.

23 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:13:24pm

re: #19 engineer cat

Is Hollywood Poised to Slander George Washington?

They’re working on a TV series—with complete artistic license—showing the father of our country hopping in bed with his best friend’s wife.

i hear they even go so far as to propose that he was a warm blooded mammal

My God, the horror! Next, they'll tell us that Jefferson was sleeping with one of his slaves!

///

24 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:14:11pm

Just put 2 Pages up, showing how polled gun owners and NRA members are behind increased gun controls. Wayne LaPierre speaks for fewer gun owners than he thinks he does.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Edit

Both polls predate the recent tragedy.

25 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:17:26pm

re: #24 Political Atheist

He speaks for all the NRA members, since he speaks for the NRA. he's been there for more than twenty years.

26 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:17:54pm

re: #22 PhillyPretzel

I am going to get a driver for my old HP Printer installed. I am also looking for a good anti-glare screen.

Haven't gotten an anti glare filter yet. I've adapted for the most part, but there's a couple of hours in the afternoon where the screen turns into a mirror. Not a fan of glossy screens.

27 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:18:36pm

re: #25 Obdicut

He does not speak for those who disagree.

28 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:19:06pm

re: #23 Targetpractice

My God, the horror! Next, they'll tell us that Jefferson was sleeping with one of his slaves!

///

Not going to lose any sleep over this, but did this actually happen?

29 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:19:45pm

re: #28 Mattand

yes

30 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:20:08pm

re: #27 Political Atheist

He does not speak for those who disagree.

Then why are they members of the NRA, where he's been the E.VP for more than twenty years?

If they disagree with him so much, why haven't they raised a stink and gotten him fired?

31 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:22:17pm

re: #28 Mattand

Not going to lose any sleep over this, but did this actually happen?

it seems pretty clear that he had a longstanding affair with the beautiful sally hemmings

not to mention how many people remarked that a number of his slaves had reddish hair...

32 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:23:52pm

Or let me put it this way: If NRA members favor gun control, then what gun control does the NRA support?

33 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:25:39pm

re: #30 Obdicut

That question could be better answered by some members. My own guess is many reflexively support the whole organization top to bottom in great part because of the parts of the NRA the critics dismiss out of hand.

re: #32 Obdicut

Or let me put it this way: If NRA members favor gun control, then what gun control does the NRA support?

Did you get a chance to look at the Pages or the linked articles?

34 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:25:42pm

Gun Control is putting the second bullet through the hole that the first one made.

35 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:25:52pm

re: #32 Obdicut

Or let me put it this way: If NRA members favor gun control, then what gun control does the NRA support?

"I have the gun, I control it."

36 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:27:41pm

re: #11 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Embedded content]

The right wingnuts love LOVE LOVE to lie to themselves. With the help of their own media.

They've sacrificed rational thought for a "win"

Scary actually.

37 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:28:22pm

re: #31 engineer cat

it seems pretty clear that he had a longstanding affair with the beautiful sally hemmings

not to mention how many people remarked that a number of his slaves had reddish hair...

I meant Washington, not Jefferson.

38 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:29:57pm

re: #33 Political Atheist

That question could be better answered by some members. My own guess is many reflexively support the whole organization top to bottom in great part because of the parts of the NRA the critics dismiss out of hand.

Did you get a chance to look at the Pages or the linked articles?

Yep. And they leave me with the burning question of why the NRA doesn't support gun control if its members do, and why the paranoid freak Wayne LaPierre has remained head of the organization for so long if the members are, in majority, much more reasonable than him.

If it really is because "But the NRA teaches gun safety", that's so fucking sad I don't even know what to say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there actually an NRA Foundation, separate from the lobbying group, that does educational programs?

39 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:30:21pm
40 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:30:50pm

I had actually believed the NRA to be a more moderate organization than it is, apparently. Some of the stuff said by LaPierre is contemptibly horrific.

41 RadicalModerate  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:32:50pm

re: #11 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Embedded content]

The best response that I've seen so far to the rightwingers' claims that "more guns" is the solution to the gun violence issue comes from an individual that a lot of people around here despise. However, he hits this one out of the effing ballpark.

edit: This is also worth saying - Moore also tweeted today that he feels strongly enough about this issue that he has linked a BOOTLEG copy of his "Bowling for Columbine" movie on YouTube, telling people that it's more important than the money involved.

42 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:33:14pm
In 2011, the organization refused an offer to discuss gun control with U.S. President Barack Obama. In response to the invitation, NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre said "Why should I or the N.R.A. go sit down with a group of people that have spent a lifetime trying to destroy the Second Amendment in the United States?"

What a fucking shitbag. The NRA refused an offer to discuss gun policy with the president. What an organization. Jesus christ.

To me, if they don't reflect the actual views of their members, if they spend shitloads on lobbying, if they promote these 'they're gonna grab your guns' scare tactics about Obama-- seems more like a racket than an honest organization.

43 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:36:48pm

re: #38 Obdicut

If it really is because "But the NRA teaches gun safety", that's so fucking sad I don't even know what to say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there actually an NRA Foundation, separate from the lobbying group, that does educational programs?

Will you please agree to take the following as an explanation of some of the NRA not defense of it overall? "NRA teaches gun safety" understates enough to mislead.

The NRA does a lot more than safety. They make it easy to comply with existing laws with the web site. They facilitate insurance for gun ranges and clubs. Yes, a ton of education, and the kids safety mascot. They have a long respected history of support for a civil right. Agree or not these things add up in a gun owners mind. Then they stay in or like me they leave.

I'll say it yet again-The NRA needs a sea change in policy and new leadership.

44 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:37:27pm

re: #42 Obdicut

What a fucking shitbag. The NRA refused an offer to discuss gun policy with the president. What an organization. Jesus christ.

To me, if they don't reflect the actual views of their members, if they spend shitloads on lobbying, if they promote these 'they're gonna grab your guns' scare tactics about Obama-- seems more like a racket than an honest organization.

Yep, it's how he earns his million a year.

For what it's worth, the GOA make him look sane.

But the well has been totally poisoned by the radicals ever since they took over the NRA in the mid 70's.

45 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:37:39pm

re: #42 Obdicut

What a fucking shitbag. The NRA refused an offer to discuss gun policy with the president. What an organization. Jesus christ.

To me, if they don't reflect the actual views of their members, if they spend shitloads on lobbying, if they promote these 'they're gonna grab your guns' scare tactics about Obama-- seems more like a racket than an honest organization.

It may have come to that.

46 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:38:36pm

re: #42 Obdicut

Have you seen their website? It looks more like Rush Limbaugh's website than an honest cooperative organization.

I've read one of the first things the radicals did when they took over the NRA was go whole hog on promotion and endorsements.

47 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:38:49pm

oh the sadness.

48 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:41:31pm

re: #43 Political Atheist

Will you please agree to take the following as an explanation of some of the NRA not defense of it overall? "NRA teaches gun safety" understates enough to mislead.

The NRA does a lot more than safety. They make it easy to comply with existing laws with the web site. They facilitate insurance for gun ranges and clubs. Yes, a ton of education, and the kids safety mascot. They have a long respected history of support for a civil right. Agree or not these things add up in a gun owners mind. Then they stay in or like me they leave.

I'll say it yet again-The NRA needs a sea change in policy and new leadership.

I'm sorry, but after learning that Wayne LaPierre simply refused to meet with Obama to discuss gun regulation, I cannot respect anyone's decision to support the NRA. That, combined with his past insane statements, is simply too much to bear.

49 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:42:15pm

re: #47 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

oh the sadness.

20 minutes from my auntie's house. Their dental hygienist's child goes to that school, but was not harmed. The community is in deep morning.

50 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:42:30pm

Hehe...


BTW, the movie is catching some flack for using the detainee torture scenes to add "drama." Some critics also claim that it presents as unquestioned fact that torture was what led to the courier who in turn led us to Osama. That claim is disputed by those involved with the film...

The screenwriter Mark Boal described the pro-torture accusations as "preposterous", stating that "it’s just misreading the film to say that it shows torture leading to the information about bin Laden", while director Bigelow added: "Do I wish [torture] was not part of that history? Yes. But it was."[49]

I have not seen the movie yet so I can't speak either way, that will have to wait until I get around to going to see it (or download it, more likely).

51 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:43:01pm

re: #42 Obdicut

What a fucking shitbag. The NRA refused an offer to discuss gun policy with the president. What an organization. Jesus christ.

To me, if they don't reflect the actual views of their members, if they spend shitloads on lobbying, if they promote these 'they're gonna grab your guns' scare tactics about Obama-- seems more like a racket than an honest organization.

Now I think you are beginning to understand my post above-

Wayne LaPierre does not speak for as many gun owners as he thinks he does. Understand that is a good thing. It's not hard to find articles about the NRA losing members and influence. Take all that as you will. Just maybe we can pass some good changes despite the NRA.

52 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:43:41pm

re: #47 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

oh the sadness.

I'm going to post a comment Dr. Lizardo made in the previous thread:

To the best of my knowledge, the funerals haven't take place yet.

What'll really rip people's hearts out? A mass funeral ceremony for all the victims. 20 little tot-sized coffins.

Imagine seeing that on Christmas Eve, or maybe a day or two before, when you turn on the TV.

Could con-artist shitbag Wayne LaPierre and those who support him have the guts to look at that for even a second?

53 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:46:05pm

re: #52 Interesting Times

Could con-artist shitbag Wayne LaPierre and those who support him have the guts to look at that for even a second?

Yep. They'll look at it as a PR disaster.

54 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:47:12pm
55 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:49:30pm

re: #51 Political Atheist

It's not losing them fast enough. And I assume that the gun industry funds them heavily as well, so they're not going to be weakening substantially any time soon, I don't think.

A large part of this is simply the dishonesty from right-wing media. I can't entirely blame some poor guy in the middle of Kansas with limited media choices from believing the stupid shit that gets thrown at him by right-wing media. When you've got guys like Issa leading false charge after false charge, too, getting people swept up in his massive bullshit over and over, even reasonable people, it's really hard to deal with. These people are pros at creating paranoia and then exploiting it, and the sad thing it's really hard to get through to the people inculcated by it because there is always a grain of truth that they've perverted and pissed all over.

A lot of these people are not stupid, and I think a lot of what has to happen is that their shit needs to be confronted. I think we've turned a bit of a corner-- Issa's Fast and Furious bullshit finally blew up in his face, but unfortunately most of the right-wing echo chamber remains convinced.

Penetrating that echo chamber is going to take moderate 'conservatives' willing to be called a lot of names, and it's also going to take those moderates losing their knee-jerk reaction to Issa's bullshit, because sadly even my moderate 'conservative' friends tend to buy the 'well there must be something to it' thing every time Issa opens his stupid face.

56 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:52:45pm

re: #50 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Hehe...

[Embedded content]


BTW, the movie is catching some flack for using the detainee torture scenes to add "drama." Some critics also claim that it presents as unquestioned fact that torture was what led to the courier who in turn led us to Osama. That claim is disputed by those involved with the film...

I have not seen the movie yet so I can't speak either way, that will have to wait until I get around to going to see it (or download it, more likely).

Bush will be vindicated when he invents a time machine, goes back in time, and prevents 911 from happening. Until then, Bush was a failure.

57 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:53:15pm

re: #51 Political Atheist

Now I think you are beginning to understand my post above-

Wayne LaPierre does not speak for as many gun owners as he thinks he does. Understand that is a good thing. It's not hard to find articles about the NRA losing members and influence. Take all that as you will. Just maybe we can pass some good changes despite the NRA.

I keep hearing the same thing about 'moderate' Republicans/conservatives, and how they'll eventually rise up grow a fucking backbone and reject the Palins, Akins, DeMints, Limbaughs, etc.

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

58 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:54:12pm

re: #54 Gus

People without crisis training? Nor CCW training? Nor defensive tactics? Please. Let me and a few of my students try that same test.

59 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:54:50pm

re: #57 Mattand

I keep hearing the same thing about 'moderate' Republicans/conservatives, and how they'll eventually rise up grow a fucking backbone and reject the Palins, Akins, DeMints, Limbaughs, etc.

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

This is good,but keep in mind. Some of the members that the NRA is losing are going to more conservatives gun nut groups. Just like the Republicans "lost" members to the tea party. This debate is far from over.

60 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:55:19pm

re: #58 Political Atheist

People without crisis training? Nor CCW training? Nor defensive tactics? Please. Let me and a few of my students try that same test.

The point being made was that the training they'd received was more than most CCW carriers receive.

61 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:55:57pm

re: #54 Gus

[Embedded content]

People always think they are better than they actually are. The thing about guns in amateurs hands, is that increases the misplaced confidence.

62 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:57:04pm

re: #61 Stanghazi

People always think they are better than they actually are. The thing about guns in amateurs hands, is that increases the misplaced confidence.

I iz Rambo!

63 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:57:52pm

There is absolutely no point in arming teachers, or in hiring a bunch of security guards who aren't extremely well-trained. Those proposals to address the situation are, even if well-meant, terribly ignorant about, ironically, guns.

64 researchok  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:58:22pm

re: #58 Political Atheist

That's the point the video makes.

65 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:58:27pm

re: #58 Political Atheist

People without crisis training? Nor CCW training? Nor defensive tactics? Please. Let me and a few of my students try that same test.

You are different than the majority of people who are CCW. You are someone with much training, correct? I do not assume this of the majority of CCW carriers. Stats on how they shoot them selves in the crotch foot?

66 BongCrodny  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:58:28pm

There's a site called meettheNRA.org that lists all the board members of the NRA that's worth reading. Click on each individual's name for a listing of their greatest "hits," so to speak.

For example, here's one entry under board member Scott Bach:

In a January 4, 2009 interview with the Philadelphia Inquirer, Bach commented on an anti-trafficking bill that sought to limit civilians' handgun purchases to one per month, saying "This legislation makes it a crime to exercise a constitutional right to obtain handguns any more often than Big Brother dictates. It's overkill in the extreme." The legislation was signed into law by then-Governor Jon Corzine on August 6, 2009.

Meet The NRA

67 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:58:34pm
68 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:00:24pm

Crotch foot. I'm not fixing that.

69 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:00:38pm

re: #67 Gus

See? Right there, supposedly pro-gun guy, displaying he doesn't know shit-all about using guns. Are we also going to fund the constant crisis-training of teachers? My brother is a teacher. He doesn't have time for that shit, he's got bad eyesight, and he hates guns anyways.

70 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:01:38pm

re: #60 Obdicut

And my point is it takes a lot of training. Yes more than most get. Something I advocated for from long before I typed a single word here. My training says -From what I saw the thing to do there was drop and hide not confront. Too many people.

71 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:02:16pm

re: #54 Gus

[Embedded content]

Reality is never as cool as the movies, so everybody ignores the odds and thinks they're Dirty Harry. You notice that the guy who's got hundreds of hours with a gun still froze up. And these are people who know that, at one point that day, they're going to get shot at. Unless you go every day expecting you're going to be dodging bullets, then it's going to shock you and you're very likely going to freeze up.

72 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:04:43pm

re: #70 Political Atheist

And my point is it takes a lot of training. Yes more than most get. Something I advocated for from long before I typed a single word here. My training says -From what I saw the thing to do there was drop and hide not confront. Too many people.

I'm assuming the information in the program is correct, and that the brief course that these students are given is more training than most states require for CCW. That is really fucking scary. I guess I'm naive, but I'd been reassured by 'reasonable' gun people I know that gun regulations were at least reasonable in this country. I see I've been really misinformed. There is no way that we should allow people to carry concealed weapons without extensive and ongoing training and evaluation. At best, if we don't, we're stroking people's vanity. At worst, we're getting more people killed.

73 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:04:48pm

Ever notice how conservative websites seem to all have obnoxious block lettering, copious lens flare effects, and random bald eagles?

BTW, Obdicut, if you dig around on the NRA webpage you'll find a section called "Wayne's Commentary". To get to it, you have to go to the NRA News section and click the link on the bottom to go to the "classic" site -- since the site does not allow remote linking.

This is his latest:

More Guns, Less Crime in Virginia

11/27/2012

Virginia Commonwealth University Professor Thomas Baker has crunched the numbers in the state of Virginia, and has determined that gun sales in the state have climbed 73% since 2006, while the number of violent crimes involving guns has declined by more than 27%.

For years, we've heard the shrill voices of those who hate your guns. "More guns on the street means more crime!" "More guns equals more murder!" and so on. And yet, clearly that's not the case. So now the gun ban crowd is changing its tune.

74 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:06:08pm

re: #65 Stanghazi

You are different than the majority of people who are CCW. You are someone with much training, correct? I do not assume this of the majority of CCW carriers. Stats on how they shoot them selves in the crotch foot?

Yes, I have more training than most, which is why I'd love to see some of my students take the same test. Tactical schools do this stuff all the time.
Training accidents are rare. The ammunition technology shown in that video is now available to training schools. The video is designed to show CCW will not work even for the well trained. At that point I have a quibble.

Again the right answer was hide or flee. Just like Aurora.

75 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:07:00pm
76 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:07:24pm

re: #74 Political Atheist

The video is designed to show CCW will not work even for the well trained.

That was not in the least bit the message of the video, no. They stressed that the training given was more than a lot of CCW holders have to undergo, and that the students didn't have crisis training, just (some of them) range training.

They make those points very clearly.

77 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:08:35pm
78 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:08:41pm

re: #34 PhillyPretzel

Gun Control is putting the second bullet through the hole that the first one made.

I see your wingnut tag and double down:
[Link: www.gunsandammo.com...]

79 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:09:01pm

re: #74 Political Atheist

Yes, I have more taring than most, which is why I'd love to see some of my students take the same test. Tactical schools do this stuff all the time.
Training accidents are rare. The ammunition technology shown in that video is not available to training schools. The video is designed to show CCW will not work even for the well trained. At that point I have a quibble.

Again the right answer was hide or flee. Just like Aurora.

Every active and ex-soldier I talked to in the immediate aftermath of Aurora, even on here, told me the same thing: Get the fuck out. Drop to the ground and get out, crawling if you have to. Trying to take down the bad guy just makes you another target and, potentially, another statistic.

80 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:09:57pm

re: #78 jaunte

I see your wingnut tag and double down:
[Link: www.gunsandammo.com...]

People in this country are fucking insane.

81 BongCrodny  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:10:00pm

NRA Board Member Wayne Anthony Ross:

In March 2011, five members of the Alaska Peacemakers Militia, including leader Francis Cox, were arrested for planning to kill Alaska State Troopers and a federal judge. The group—which had stockpiled firearms and explosives—advocated the violent secession of Alaska from the United States. Five days after Cox and his co-conspirators were arrested, Alaska Citizens Militia "supply sergeant" William Fulton disappeared—but not before signing over his two houses to Ross, who in 2009 shared the stage with Cox at a Peacemakers meeting. In July 2011, it was reported that authorities were looking for Fulton, who they believe supplied weapons to Cox’s militia.

Meet The NRA

82 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:10:01pm

Tactical anecdote
Some SBDO SWAT officers and paint ball champions decided to go play. They armed up with real guns and that training ammo like the video. Went to a police training shoot house. The paint ball guys got a big surprise at first. Er, asses kicked. At the end of the day everyone learned some things and all had a good time.

83 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:10:22pm

Bottom line for me:

If you're not willing to undergo the training and evaluation to prove that you can use a concealed weapon well and responsibly in a crisis, what possible reason could there be for me to be okay with you having a concealed weapon? The only time a concealed weapon is a benefit to anyone is if you can use it effectively.

And yeah, most of the time that'll be not using it at all.

84 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:11:29pm

re: #72 Obdicut

I'm assuming the information in the program is correct, and that the brief course that these students are given is more training than most states require for CCW. That is really fucking scary. I guess I'm naive, but I'd been reassured by 'reasonable' gun people I know that gun regulations were at least reasonable in this country. I see I've been really misinformed. There is no way that we should allow people to carry concealed weapons without extensive and ongoing training and evaluation. At best, if we don't, we're stroking people's vanity. At worst, we're getting more people killed.

As I've mentioned before, we tried to get a real training requirement in the Wisconsin CCL requirements but the NRA had a fit and the Republicans turned tail on that training. I'll also add that even though Wisconsin is hardly seen as a super big gun state, it's been estimated that signing the CCL legislation was good for 4% of the 6% that Walker won his recall by. Up here in Northern Wisconsin, Police can easily take an hour to get to your home in an emergency.

85 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:11:41pm

fyi, Jason Whitlock has a photo of one of the children killed as his avatar.

86 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:12:53pm

re: #76 Obdicut

Can you square those specific points with the title of the video? 'Cause usually titles are the best short description of the message in a documentary.

Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One

Hyperbolic, producers license to get the ratings etc etc.

87 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:13:14pm

re: #37 Mattand

I meant Washington, not Jefferson.

oh, washington - what is clear is that he flirted with his friend's wife somewhat outrageously, but there is no evidence of actual hanky panky

88 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:13:37pm

re: #86 Political Atheist

Can you square those specific points with the title of the video? 'Cause usually titles are the best short description of the message in a documentary.

Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One

Hyperbolic, producers license to get the ratings etc etc.

Is their allegation that the training they give their students more than is required in most states that allow CCW for CCW carriers true, or not?

89 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:13:52pm

All I know is there are not enough tears.

90 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:13:58pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Bottom line for me:

If you're not willing to undergo the training and evaluation to prove that you can use a concealed weapon well and responsibly in a crisis, what possible reason could there be for me to be okay with you having a concealed weapon? The only time a concealed weapon is a benefit to anyone is if you can use it effectively.

And yeah, most of the time that'll be not using it at all.

I agree in full with you here.

91 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:14:51pm

"Training" won't stop spree and rampage shooters.

92 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:16:25pm

re: #91 Gus

"Training" won't stop spree and rampage shooters.

I think at best, training will make sure CCW carriers don't increase the body-count.

93 RadicalModerate  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:19:10pm

Yet another "hero" for the NRA to jump to the defense of:

Chief: Ind. man wasn't serious about school threat

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- A northern Indiana police chief said Sunday he believes a man arrested after allegedly threatening to "kill as many people as he could" at a school was just bluffing when he made the ominous remark during a heated argument with his wife.

Interim Cedar Lake Police Chief Jerry Smith said Von I. Meyer, 60, was arguing early Friday morning with his wife and initially threatened to set her on fire while she was sleeping at their home.

Meyer, who was arrested Saturday on seven felony charges, then told his wife he would kill her "at the school" and "would kill as many people as he could before police could stop him police," Smith said.
[...]
Meyer fled his home early Friday after his wife reported the alleged threats to police, and he may have gone into hiding in a densely wooded area around his home, Smith said.

Police watched the house, but Meyer apparently slipped back into his home at some point. He was arrested there without incident Saturday on felony intimidation, resisting law enforcement and domestic battery charges.

BTW, police found FORTY-SEVEN guns and ammunition hidden throughout the suspect's home - and the local cops have the audacity to claim that he wasn't a serious threat - never mind those violent felony charges he's facing.

94 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:20:36pm

re: #86 Political Atheist

Can you square those specific points with the title of the video? 'Cause usually titles are the best short description of the message in a documentary.

Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One

Hyperbolic, producers license to get the ratings etc etc.

Damn, that video really hurt didn't it.

95 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:20:42pm

Hah. Fifteen hours of instruction. Fifteen fucking hours is all that Texas requires to get a CCW. And that doesn't have to include any crisis training. What a fucking joke.

96 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:23:24pm

re: #93 RadicalModerate

Yet another "hero" for the NRA to jump to the defense of:

Chief: Ind. man wasn't serious about school threat

BTW, police found FORTY-SEVEN guns and ammunition hidden throughout the suspect's home - and the local cops have the audacity to claim that he wasn't a serious threat - never mind those violent felony charges he's facing.

47 "collector's guns" and over $100,000 in ammunition.

"What d'you do when you're not buying stereos Nick? Finance revolutions?"

97 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:23:37pm

re: #58 Political Atheist

People without crisis training? Nor CCW training? Nor defensive tactics? Please. Let me and a few of my students try that same test.

Again with the fantasies.

98 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:23:58pm

re: #93 RadicalModerate

initially threatened to set her on fire while she was sleeping

Just a typical little disagreement with the missus. Move along.

99 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:24:23pm

re: #98 jaunte

Just a typical little disagreement with the missus. Move along.

Cops. Duh-e.

100 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:25:00pm

Why the fuck did I believe people when they told me CCW holders were well-trained? I can be so fucking gullible sometimes. Christ.

Florida allows concealed carry for anyone who's undergone a hunting gun safety and usage course. How does that make any fucking sense? What is the relationship between knowing how to practice gun safety when hunting and carrying around a handgun in an urban setting? Da-hoy.

101 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:26:34pm

re: #95 Obdicut

So we have a sky high accident and accidental shooting/fatality rate among CCW holders right?

102 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:26:54pm

They'll empty a clip on a "suspect" holding a Bic pen or carving a piece of wood with knife. Especially if you're black or Hispanic. Walking down the street with a an AR-15 while white is OK though. Worse that'll happen is you'll get questioned by the cops. With the knife thing it's not cover because "it ain't a right guaranteed by the US Constertushun."

103 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:27:02pm

OT Yehaa! hurray! This is great..I just set the DVR. The Military channel is showing the Fight for Fallujah in an hour. Jordan fought that battle in Iraq.. The Marines kick ass.. I'll be looking for my boy and playing the show over and over. I didn't know there was filming going on.. ( except for news reports during the battle )This is exciting! The old timers remember the Avatar's of Jordan in Iraq..and the stories and releases from the front..I changed his pic here about every week or so of his handsome ass in Iraq. I'm flooded by the memories.. We got only one pic that pissed his mom off..
One morning in the middle of the war.. Jordan went outside the CP in only his white undies and posed showing off his guns so they could take a picture and send it home...His mom was pissed..everybody else likes the pic..Funny as hell. She was yelling at him when he got home.. You went outside in your underwear in the middle of the Fallujah war showing off like a damn bodybuilder? Are you nuts?
Mom.. nobody was shooting at the moment.. ease up! They went around and around fighting like that.. Gosh..memories..OK Gotta phone the boy and let him know about the show and it's going to be on..In 35 minutes

104 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:27:46pm

re: #101 Political Atheist

So we have a sky high accident and accidental shooting/fatality rate among CCW holders right?

No, we don't. But I'm sorry, you already agreed with me that there's no point in allowing people to have CCWs unless they're well-trained. You surely don't think fifteen hours that don't have to include crisis training includes that, right?

105 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:27:52pm
106 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:28:39pm
108 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:29:15pm

re: #97 Renaissance_Man

Would that be the drop and hide fantasy?

109 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:29:29pm

re: #106 Gus

If the Japanese-Americans had tried to resist internment with arms they would have been cut down and the survivors would have been imprisoned or deported.

110 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:30:16pm

re: #109 Obdicut

If the Japanese-Americans had tried to resist internment with arms they would have been cut down and the survivors would have been imprisoned or deported.

Joshua is an idiot.

111 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:31:09pm

re: #109 Obdicut

If the Japanese-Americans had tried to resist internment with arms they would have been cut down and the survivors would have been imprisoned or deported.

While being branded as traitorous bastards and the dead held up as examples of why the Nippon race could not be trusted, American or not.

112 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:31:14pm

re: #106 Gus

Trevino is a fantasist. Look at his Twitter page quote:

"To quote José Antonio Navarro: I will never forsake Texas or her cause. I am her son."

113 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:31:17pm

re: #108 Political Atheist

Would that be the drop and hide fantasy?

So the answer to your question about what someone who really is in potential danger should be allowed to have for home and personal defence is training in how to drop and hide, rather than a gun?

I'm totally on board with that.

114 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:31:30pm

re: #107 CuriousLurker

Gah, I hate that the minds of children anywhere are being tainted by this kind of nightmare. They shouldn't have to think about these things.

Mourners attend a vigil at St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic Church in Newtown, Conn. on Friday.

Pakistani children light candles to pay tribute to Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting victims in southern Pakistani port city of Karachi on Dec. 15, 2012.

A girl prays for the victims with her mother during a prayer vigil in Newtown, Conn. on Friday.

Full slideshow here.

They might have to hear about it more save we disturb the gun HOBBYISTS.

116 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:33:17pm

re: #114 Gus

They might have to hear about it more save we disturb the gun HOBBYISTS.

Exactly what I was thinking. It make me furious.

117 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:33:27pm

Hey, look, Fast and Furious conspiracy from Wayne LaPierre

I've told you before about the advocacy group called "Media Matters for America" and how they've taken hundreds of thousands of dollars from groups like the Joyce Foundation in order to plant anti-gun and anti-NRA items in the media. I've even told you about the behind-the-scenes collaboration between Michael Bloomberg's "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" and Media Matters.

Now Daily Caller reporter Matthew Boyle's uncovered the working relationship between the anti-gunners at Media Matters and the communications department at the Department of Justice. E-mails show Justice Department spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler worked repeatedly with Media Matters staffers such as Matt Gertz to try and spin the "Operation Fast and Furious" scandal. Already several members of Congress have called for Schmaler to step down, and the tax-exempt status of Media Matters could be in jeopardy.

Of course the DOJ hasn't officially commented on the story. But I'll bet they're still writing about it away from the prying eyes of the public. It's more secrecy and deceit from the "most transparent" administration in history, and more evidence that President Obama, Attorney General Eric Holder, and their devoted followers hold you and your rights in contempt.

118 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:34:26pm

re: #113 Renaissance_Man

The full spectrum of responses, because the gun may be there and not be the best answer. It might also give you a fighting chance if it comes to that.
Get cover is an early and frequent lesson.

119 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:34:41pm

re: #95 Obdicut

Hah. Fifteen hours of instruction. Fifteen fucking hours is all that Texas requires to get a CCW. And that doesn't have to include any crisis training. What a fucking joke.

Fifteen hours? TYRANNY!! I need 20 dollars and a 10 minute"Shall Issue" paper exercise to get a CC permit recognized by 23 states.

120 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:37:07pm

re: #118 Political Atheist

Except it's not a lesson that most CCW carriers have to learn, from what I'm finding in investigating laws. Seriously, dude, I had trusted my gun-loving friends who told me that CCW carriers were well-trained, but I am finding that is not in the least bit the case. 15 hours is not enough time to train someone to use a gun safely even on a range, much less in any sort of crisis situation. Any of the NRA safety courses will work in Florida, even the ones without any crisis training, as will any hunting safety course.

It would be great if all CCW carriers were trained the way you are, but that is very clearly not the case and I am honestly pretty shocked to find that I've had the wool pulled over my eyes to this extent.

121 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:37:10pm

My Mom lives in Washington State and recently acquired a CCW and a new S&W model 60. No training required. She went to the range and got instruction, but she really needed it and I don't think it was very CCW specific. She has been instructed never to load her 60 with .357 cartridges, even though it's designed to handle them, so that's at least one small mercy shown to society.

Years ago when I lived there she thought she wanted to get a gun and so we went to the range. It was embarrassing. She loaded the bullets into a magazine backwards and at one point let a few fly into the rafters. Anybody else would have been asked to leave but they took pity on her. She could handle my target .22, but couldn't hit much with it.

Part of the problem was that she wore one contact lens for near vision and one for distance. A small part of the problem.

122 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:37:29pm

re: #116 CuriousLurker

Exactly what I was thinking. It make me furious.

We need some class action law suits. Not sure if we can sue these assholes but I'd like to see a class action law suit against Bushmaster. Take them down and make them go bankrupt.

123 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:39:35pm

re: #118 Political Atheist

The full spectrum of responses, because the gun may be there and not be the best answer. It might also give you a fighting chance if it comes to that.
Get cover is an early and frequent lesson.

Ah, so it's still the fantasy of ordinary civilians engaging in gun battles with those ever-present bad guys.

We can only hope that someday Americans tire of indulging these fantasies at the cost of real lives.

124 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:39:36pm

re: #122 Gus

The black bitter part is that thanks to the paranoia-spreading nutjobs, in the aftermath of this tragedy-- gun manufacturers, gun shops, are making bank.

125 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:39:42pm

re: #122 Gus

We need some class action law suits. Not sure if we can sue these assholes but I'd like to see a class action law suit against Bushmaster. Take them down and make them go bankrupt.

Federal law prohibits lawsuits, class action or otherwise, against a gun maker if the gun performed as designed.

126 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:40:03pm

Anyway. This isn't about CCW really. That's another NRA ploy to take the attention away of gun control. The gun rights people brought up CCW as an answer to spree shootings as usual.

127 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:40:56pm

re: #125 William Barnett-Lewis

Federal law prohibits lawsuits, class action or otherwise, against a gun maker if the gun performed as designed.

Yep. Fucking America! Ain't it great?

128 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:40:57pm

re: #122 Gus

We need some class action law suits. Not sure if we can sue these assholes but I'd like to see a class action law suit against Bushmaster. Take them down and make them go bankrupt.

Federal law prohibits class action lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

129 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:41:39pm

re: #128 goddamnedfrank

Federal law prohibits class action lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

Signed by that scumbag Bush.

130 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:41:56pm

re: #119 Decatur Deb

Fifteen hours? TYRANNY!! I need 20 dollars and a 10 minute"Shall Issue" paper exercise to get a CC permit recognized by several states.

Tyranny! In Arizona all you need are 21 birthdays.

131 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:42:23pm

America is one big giant hick town.

132 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:43:41pm

re: #131 Gus

America is one big giant hick town.

Except for NYC, which is why they're so arrogant.

/semi

133 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:44:44pm
134 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:45:13pm

re: #132 wrenchwench

Ironically, the only person I know in NYC who owns a gun (aside from a couple cops) is an enormous asshole who gets wildly drunk a lot.

135 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:45:36pm

re: #133 Gus

[Embedded content]

Good thing all of Nancy Lanza's guns were properly background checked.

136 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:46:04pm

re: #54 Gus

[Embedded content]

The one thing that struck me as gamed in that test is that the shooter always seemed to know where the CCW would be sitting, and targeted them immediately after shooting the instructor.

137 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:46:07pm

re: #133 Gus

[Embedded content]

Which pretty much rips the guts out of the argument that background checks are a surefire way to weed out people who shouldn't be wielding guns.

138 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:46:11pm

Anyway, it's a little rough around here having to deal with the LGF Gun Lobby.

139 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:46:53pm

Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns. Guns.

140 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:48:09pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that's a fair criticism-- but in only one of the cases would it have made the slightest difference, the girl was the only one who effectively got a shot off while not immediately drawing huge amounts of attention to herself.

141 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:48:25pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

The one thing that struck me as gamed in that test is that the shooter always seemed to know where the CCW would be sitting, and targeted them immediately after shooting the instructor.

True, but based upon what saw, it wouldn't have really made a difference. Even the guy with all that "experience" froze up. All ducking behind the chair did was make the gunman ignore other targets to go after the sitting duck.

142 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:49:14pm

re: #137 Targetpractice

I haven't felt this naive in a long time. I didn't even know there were states that allowed conceal carry for just anyone, without any permit. It seems so fucking dumb to me to allow that I couldn't believe they would, but then again Texas allowing people CCWs after only fifteen hours of training is not that much better than nothing.

143 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:49:20pm

re: #140 Obdicut

Yeah, that's a fair criticism-- but in only one of the cases would it have made the slightest difference, the girl was the only one who effectively got a shot off while not immediately drawing huge amounts of attention to herself.

And short of severing the guy's femoral artery, all he shot would have done is hobbled him. She, on the other hand, would be dead or a vegetable.

144 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:49:47pm

re: #122 Gus

We need some class action law suits. Not sure if we can sue these assholes but I'd like to see a class action law suit against Bushmaster. Take them down and make them go bankrupt.

We have to do something and, yeah, unless it's causing pain for the politicians & organizations/companies supporting the lax gun laws, then nothing is going to change. Why should it? It doesn't cost them anything, it only costs the innocent victims and their families.

Shame on us as a society, as a country, if we can't/won't do everything in our power to protect our children and prevent this kind of slaughter (as much as is humanly possible) from ever happening again.

I'd better shut up--I'm feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it.

145 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:50:04pm

Ah, gun safety. One advantage of being old is that you can reasonably invoke personal experience with all sorts of things.
I posted this a couple of years ago.

I think I've told the story before of how I survived a similar shooting in 1982. I was going to the range with a co-worker. We were in my driveway loading our guns into the trunk of his car when his .45 pistol discharged. The bullet hit me in the left thigh, puncturing but not severing the femoral artery. I didn't realize at first that I had been hit. I thought I had caught the muzzle blast but no worse than that. I looked down though and saw blood spurting out of a jagged hole in my blue jeans. Oh shit, I thought, this is going to be bad.
I told the unfortunate shooter to go into the house and call an ambulance. The imbecile panicked and started running around in circles.
I managed to get into the house under my own power and called an ambulance. About then the pain set in, it was like someone had jammed a red-hot poker through my leg and was twisting it. Blood was running off my clothes and soaking not just the couch where I was lying but the floor around it.
I heard sirens then and realized I had forgotten to tell the dispatcher that the shooting was an accident.
Neighbors told me later what happened next. About 5 police cars converged on the house with lights and sirens on. The panic-stricken shooter was standing in the front yard, .45 still in hand. The cops leveled their shotguns on him, pinned him to the ground, and handcuffed him. They soon found me barely conscious in the house. At that point I was thinking about letting the shooter spend a few days meditating on gun safety in the county jail. I relented though and told the cops what had happened. I don't remember the ambulance ride to the hospital.

I was up and around in a week or so but it took several months to fully recover. The shooter was an NRA member and had firearms liability insurance. They picked up the hospital bills and my lost time.
The local cops and the municipal court took a very dim view of all this. The shooter was charged with reckless conduct resulting in bodily injury, discharging a firearm within the city limits, and a few minor offenses. He got probation and about a thousand dollars worth of fines.
The cops recovered the bullet and eventually gave it to me. They had found it almost undamaged in my front yard. I still have it.

I thought the other chap involved in this knew how to handle guns; life-long shooter, NRA member, multiple handgun owner etc. I was wrong. He actually had no formal training at all, he had learned from relatives and by trial and error (a serious error in this case). I neglected to mention in the original post that our employer fired him: Shooting a co-worker is grounds for termination, even in Texas.

Another thing I took this from this was an enhanced appreciation for blood donors. I don't remember how much it took to replace what I had left in the driveway, the yard, the house, the ambulance, and the ER. It was a hell of a lot though and I would certainly have died without it.
Many thanks, donors.

146 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:51:01pm

Trevino still spluttering along.

An answer from yesterday:

To all of you John Wayne wannabe douchewagons who think they need guns to protect us all from tyranny:

I would love to see anyone have a go at the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, CIA, FBI, ATF, Border Patrol et al with their tanks, unmanned aerial drones shooting Hellfire missiles, Apache helicopters, F18s, B2 bombers and armored Hummers with 50 caliber roof-mounted fully automatic machine guns etc. with whatever they have in their gun cabinets. That is a stupid, antiquated argument that makes as much sense as trying to put out a fucking firestorm with a thimble full of water, you delusional lunatics.
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

147 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:51:41pm

re: #133 Gus

[Embedded content]

I'd need to see some proof of that as I find it highly doubtful that 40% of all firearms transactions are private ones.

I do want to see NICS open for anyone to use, mind, but I find that number hard to believe.

148 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:52:09pm

re: #140 Obdicut

That and they used a scenario where the gun was not a good play. Quite the setup-A gun, a tiny bit of orientation, then singled out in a crowd where the gun won't help.

From a lighter view-It was your restaurant busboy vs Jason Bourne

149 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:53:03pm

For anyone who wants to rip their hearts out and experience gut-wrenching guilty agony, there are in-depth profiles of the victims up on the Wall Street Journal.

It always seems halfway between ghoulish and respectful to find out more about people who die tragically.

150 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:53:42pm

re: #78 jaunte

I see your wingnut tag and double down:
[Link: www.gunsandammo.com...]

E-peen.

151 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:54:17pm

re: #142 Obdicut

I haven't felt this naive in a long time. I didn't even know there were states that allowed conceal carry for just anyone, without any permit. It seems so fucking dumb to me to allow that I couldn't believe they would, but then again Texas allowing people CCWs after only fifteen hours of training is not that much better than nothing.

There is a big movement in the right wing for what they call "constitutional carry". Any adult, any firearm, anywhere, anytime is the ultimate goal. "the constitution is my permit" is their motto. They really love Vermont & Arizona's laws

152 bratwurst  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:55:08pm

re: #149 Obdicut

It always seems halfway between ghoulish and respectful to find out more about people who die tragically.

Slightly less ghoulish than making a celebrity out of the killer at least.

153 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:55:35pm

re: #148 Political Atheist

If that situation is one where a gun isn't a good play, then most situations aren't going to be.

And again: Everything I'm reading shows the amount of training to get a CCW in many places is shockingly, terribly low. I have heard that CCW holders are well-trained and this turns out not to be true. It's really shocked me. I hadn't realized how incredibly permissive our gun control laws are.

154 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:55:50pm

re: #147 William Barnett-Lewis

I'd need to see some proof of that as I find it highly doubtful that 40% of all firearms transactions are private ones.

I do want to see NICS open for anyone to use, mind, but I find that number hard to believe.

Probably including long guns. There were about 50 for sale the last time I went to our flea market.

155 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:55:50pm

re: #146 jaunte

Trevino still spluttering along.

[Embedded content]

An answer from yesterday:

Ah, but see, they're convinced that if there's ever a civil war, the military will either refuse to raise arms against them or even fight alongside them. I shit you negative on that, got a secessionist on another board who pounds again and again that he "knows" that military will not follow orders given by Obama if a state decides to secede.

156 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:56:25pm

It was less than a month ago that a gun shop employee accidentally shot a customer a block from here.

157 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:56:53pm

re: #11 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Embedded content]

Still, if the killer's gun hadn't jammed, the CCW holder was in decent position to fire on the shooter at Clackamas and he had the drop on the shooter. He did everything right at the time and shouldn't have scorn aimed at him. Save the scorn for Bryan Fischer, who richly deserves it.

158 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:57:51pm

re: #154 Decatur Deb

Probably including long guns. There were about 50 for sale the last time I went to our flea market.

Lost count of the number of guns I've seen for sale at flea markets and dirt malls. Always one or more guys with a small arsenal on sale, always for cheap, and generally on a handshake basis. As in "I trust that you're a good guy, else I wouldn't sell this to you."

159 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:57:55pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

The one thing that struck me as gamed in that test is that the shooter always seemed to know where the CCW would be sitting, and targeted them immediately after shooting the instructor.

What I noticed is that everyone else was running out of the room. If you look at that first row it clears out pretty fast other than the CCW person. Once the intruders pop the instructor the next closest person in white is generally the CCW person - who generally is obviously attempting to do something like pull a gun out.

160 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:58:15pm

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

Still, if the killer's gun hadn't jammed, the CCW holder was in decent position to fire on the shooter at Clackamas and he had the drop on the shooter. He did everything right at the time and shouldn't have scorn aimed at him. Save the scorn for Bryan Fischer, who richly deserves it.

I'm not saying this as a diss on the CCW guy, but can we get some clarification on whether the mall was a "Gun Free Zone" or not?

161 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:58:22pm

re: #149 Obdicut

For anyone who wants to rip their hearts out and experience gut-wrenching guilty agony, there are in-depth profiles of the victims up on the Wall Street Journal.

It always seems halfway between ghoulish and respectful to find out more about people who die tragically.

Especially when their life experience was a total of 7 years. 3 of those as toddlers.

162 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:59:11pm

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

Still, if the killer's gun hadn't jammed, the CCW holder was in decent position to fire on the shooter at Clackamas and he had the drop on the shooter. He did everything right at the time and shouldn't have scorn aimed at him. Save the scorn for Bryan Fischer, who richly deserves it.

The guy was in position, but like Tuscon, he made the wise decision not to fire because he didn't know if there were others in the same line of fire. If he'd fired and missed, or worse it had been a through and through, he might be facing charges. Even if not, he'd certainly be getting his ass sued off for wrongful death.

163 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:59:28pm

re: #158 Targetpractice

Lost count of the number of guns I've seen for sale at flea markets and dirt malls. Always one or more guys with a small arsenal on sale, always for cheap, and generally on a handshake basis. As in "I trust that you're a good guy, else I wouldn't sell this to you."

It's a good place to have one stuck in your face as it's waved around.

164 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:59:34pm

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

hey D_F See #103
Thks

165 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:01:10pm

If it only takes 15 hours to learn how to handle a weapon why does the police academy last so long? Day one: how to handle a weapon. Day two. Tickets 101. Day three....

166 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:01:39pm

re: #153 Obdicut

If a guy goes to Front Sight he is well trained. His state might not have strong requirements, it should. It should also take a long hard look at accepting training credentials from good schools as legislation passes.

167 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:02:10pm

re: #145 Shiplord Kirel

Ah, gun safety. One advantage of being old is that you can reasonably invoke personal experience with all sorts of things.
I posted this a couple of years ago.

I thought the other chap involved in this knew how to handle guns; life-long shooter, NRA member, multiple handgun owner etc. I was wrong. He actually had no formal training at all, he had learned from relatives and by trial and error (a serious error in this case).

What? 7 Days ago, dad accidentally kills son at gun shop - loaded gun

168 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:04:40pm

re: #162 Targetpractice

The guy was in position, but like Tuscon, he made the wise decision not to fire because he didn't know if there were others in the same line of fire. If he'd fired and missed, or worse it had been a through and through, he might be facing charges. Even if not, he'd certainly be getting his ass sued off for wrongful death.

Someone is firing a rifle like that, you have to take them down swiftly. I'd say the right action had the shooter's gun not jammed would have been to open fire. The key thing is to take the shooter out, if a through shot hits someone else, then I'd have to rate them as collateral damage. If that sounds ruthless, that's because it is. Ruthless and decisive action would be the way to save lives.

169 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:05:04pm

re: #166 Political Atheist

His state might not have strong requirements, it should.

But that's my point. Most states, I'm finding, don't. Or rather, the states with the highest gun ownership have, unsurprisingly, the most permissive and incredibly goddamn lax CCW laws. It is goddamn ridiculous.

It is ridiculous to me to allow people to even have a gun in their house without more training than 15 hours worth. These are not fucking toys, they're not ego-accessories, and that's how they're being treated. If these gun owners-- the ones who are not even bothering to get thoroughly-trained and retrained constantly-- are not taking their gun ownership seriously enough to do that, I see no reason why I should take their gun ownership seriously either.

I made people spend a lot more than fifteen fucking hours training as boxers before I let them spar with each other.

This has been a serious wake-up call for me.

170 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:05:17pm

re: #146 jaunte

Trevino still spluttering along.

[Embedded content]

An answer from yesterday:

*Head desk* It is Trevino who hasn't been paying attention. If the Taliban and the Iraqi insurgents had been equipped only with small arms, AKs and such, they would have been squashed like bugs, rounded up, and thrown behind barbed wire in a few days time. RPGs, IEDs, grenades, and mortars are small stuff by some standards but they are crucial to any kind of serious insurgency and they are not available to the Tea Party's self-designated resistance fighters.

171 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:05:49pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

Someone is firing a rifle like that, you have to take them down swiftly. I'd say the right action had the shooter's gun not jammed would have been to open fire. The key thing is to take the shooter out, if a through shot hits someone else, then I'd have to rate them as collateral damage. If that sounds ruthless, that's because it is. Ruthless and decisive action would be the way to save lives.

What a humanitarian you are.///

172 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:05:56pm

re: #103 A Man for all Seasons

That is so exciting for you! Did you call Jordan to tell him?
*waves*

173 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:06:06pm

re: #165 Iwouldprefernotto

If it only takes 15 hours to learn how to handle a weapon why does the police academy last so long? Day one: how to handle a weapon. Day two. Tickets 101. Day three....

Because police need to know learn advanced driving techniques, how to take down suspects, police procedure and how to log in evidence, etc.

174 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:06:16pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

Someone is firing a rifle like that, you have to take them down swiftly. I'd say the right action had the shooter's gun not jammed would have been to open fire. The key thing is to take the shooter out, if a through shot hits someone else, then I'd have to rate them as collateral damage. If that sounds ruthless, that's because it is. Ruthless and decisive action would be the way to save lives.

Have you even ever fired a gun?

175 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:07:06pm

re: #169 Obdicut

How about a 5 day course like this with annual refreshers?
Linking to a tactical school that is well regarded.

176 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:07:06pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

Because police need to know learn advanced driving techniques, how to take down suspects, police procedure and how to log in evidence, etc.

They also spend far, far, far, far, far, far more time than fifteen hours practicing gun usage in tactical situations, Dark.

177 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:08:03pm

re: #172 Dancing along the light of day

That is so exciting for you! Did you call Jordan to tell him?
*waves*

Thanks..ok it started! Now talking about the politics involved..
I called Jordan

178 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:08:33pm

re: #175 Political Atheist

How about a 5 day course like this with annual refreshers?
Linking to a tactical school that is well regarded.

I believe the policeman when he said if you go for a month without training, you'll largely lose it. So no. I would like whatever is recommended by professionals, and I think it would be more than a five day course that appears to have a grand total of one day of concealed carry training.

179 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:08:34pm

re: #170 Shiplord Kirel

Yes, it was a remarkably ignorant comment from a "Claremont Institute Fellow."

180 calochortus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:09:09pm

re: #145 Shiplord Kirel

Glad you made it through that-and seriously, thanks for reminding me I'm due to donate and need to make an appointment. It's easy to let it slip this time of year.

181 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:09:12pm

It's pretty mind blowing how many accidents happen with loaded guns, hell, I thought it was an unwritten rule that no one should even point an unloaded gun at anyone.

182 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:10:08pm

re: #181 dragonath

It's pretty mind blowing how many accidents happen with loaded guns, hell, I thought it was an unwritten rule that no one should even point an unloaded gun at anyone.

Every weapon is always loaded. Never assume they aren't.

183 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:10:22pm

re: #149 Obdicut

I can't imagine being a parent, and losing a child. This time of year makes it worse. Imagine having to look at the presents you had bought, for a child now gone. In addition to the child being gone. There aren't enought tears, and only time would heal you.

184 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:11:14pm

4 rules that should be drilled into everyone.

Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.

Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.

Never point your weapon at anything you don’t intend to shoot.

Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

185 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:11:56pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

What a humanitarian you are.///

The idea is to save lives. If in taking down the shooter you save lives he otherwise would have taken, in my mind that can justify the risk to innocent people of returning fire. It doesn't always justify it, of course, since one must weigh odds of success vs. probability of collateral damage. But the idea is to stop the shooter from killing others, not to survive yourself. I would submit that if someone can, as one of the teachers did at Sandy Hook, draw the shooter away from others he might target, then one is right in doing so, even if the person themselves is killed. The highest good is to save lives in a situation like that, personal survival should come a distant second.

186 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:12:10pm

Two years ago a 16 year old from Albuquerque was taken hunting by his father near here. He intentionally shot his father, turned himself in, and they recently decided to try him as an adult.

At least once a year there's a suicide by gun in the nearby National Forest, often by someone who traveled hundreds of miles to get there.

187 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:12:20pm

re: #174 Varek Raith

Have you even ever fired a gun?

Yes, I have.

188 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:12:44pm

re: #178 Obdicut

But the standards from police detectives would be fine then right?

189 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:13:16pm

re: #184 Kragar

4 rules that should be drilled into everyone.

Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.

Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.

Never point your weapon at anything you don’t intend to shoot.

Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

Quoted for Truth.

190 gwangung  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:13:30pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

Someone is firing a rifle like that, you have to take them down swiftly. I'd say the right action had the shooter's gun not jammed would have been to open fire. The key thing is to take the shooter out,

Hm.

I thought the FIRST thing is to get all civilians out of the line of fire.

191 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:14:43pm

re: #179 jaunte

Yes, it was a remarkably ignorant comment from a "Claremont Institute Fellow."

You mean he's not living up to the standards of such vaunted prior fellowships as Christine O'Donnell. John H Hinderaker, Institute Fellow and global warming denier / school-as-biker bar enthusiast, will be disappointed.

192 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:15:09pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

The idea is to save lives. If in taking down the shooter you save lives he otherwise would have taken, in my mind that can justify the risk to innocent people of returning fire. It doesn't always justify it, of course, since one must weigh odds of success vs. probability of collateral damage.

The armed bystander in Clackamas decided it wasn't worth the risk to try shooting.

But the idea is to stop the shooter from killing others, not to survive yourself. I would submit that if someone can, as one of the teachers did at Sandy Hook, draw the shooter away from others he might target, then one is right in doing so, even if the person themselves is killed. The highest good is to save lives in a situation like that, personal survival should come a distant second.

One of the teachers at Sandy Hook did that without a gun.

193 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:15:43pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

The idea is to save lives. If in taking down the shooter you save lives he otherwise would have taken, in my mind that can justify the risk to innocent people of returning fire. It doesn't always justify it, of course, since one must weigh odds of success vs. probability of collateral damage. But the idea is to stop the shooter from killing others, not to survive yourself. I would submit that if someone can, as one of the teachers did at Sandy Hook, draw the shooter away from others he might target, then one is right in doing so, even if the person themselves is killed. The highest good is to save lives in a situation like that, personal survival should come a distant second.

You're right, the point is to save lives. Killing someone in order to put down the shooter is not saving lives, it's putting some else's baby in the ground.

194 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:15:58pm

re: #188 Political Atheist

But the standards from police detectives would be fine then right?

Standards that were agreed on by a lot of LEO organizations to be effective for civilians using guns in a crisis situation would. Not them endorsing it as better than nothing, but fully endorsing it as that person being capable of responding effectively in a crisis situation.

195 gwangung  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:16:18pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

The idea is to save lives. If in taking down the shooter you save lives he otherwise would have taken, in my mind that can justify the risk to innocent people of returning fire

I would posit that in the first few seconds of a situation that's the wrong decision to make. Far too many factors to consider and far too chaotic.

196 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:16:20pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

The armed bystander in Clackamas decided it wasn't worth the risk to try shooting.

One of the teachers at Sandy Hook did that without a gun.

I said that as well.

197 wrenchwench  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:18:49pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

I said that as well.

In both cases a gun was not needed. We don't need more armed people walking around.

198 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:18:54pm

Shorter Erickson: God's mad about gay marriage and singles, so: dead children.

199 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:19:07pm

re: #121 goddamnedfrank

My Mom lives in Washington State and recently acquired a CCW and a new S&W model 60. No training required. She went to the range and got instruction, but she really needed it and I don't think it was very CCW specific. She has been instructed never to load her 60 with .357 cartridges, even though it's designed to handle them, so that's at least one small mercy shown to society.

Years ago when I lived there she thought she wanted to get a gun and so we went to the range. It was embarrassing. She loaded the bullets into a magazine backwards and at one point let a few fly into the rafters. Anybody else would have been asked to leave but they took pity on her. She could handle my target .22, but couldn't hit much with it.

Part of the problem was that she wore one contact lens for near vision and one for distance. A small part of the problem.

WHY did she think she needs a gun?

200 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:20:25pm

Again, as I posted yesterday, the only instance I'm aware of where a concealed-carry person stopped a mass shooting in progress came with an important disclaimer: she was a former police officer. That is, someone who knew what the fuck she was doing and had shitloads more training than "fifteen hours". And even then, two people were shot dead before she was able to take the shooter down.

201 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:23:10pm

More guns in the hands of people we don't know. Obviously perfect, really.

202 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:23:12pm

re: #200 Interesting Times

I have found quite a few, but many are not on mainstream sites.
Just search CCW saves man and the same for woman.

203 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:23:17pm

re: #198 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Shorter Erickson: God's mad about gay marriage and singles, so: dead children.

His God is not worthy of any respect whatsoever.

204 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:24:01pm

OT, but a needed break

205 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:24:25pm

re: #186 wrenchwench

At least once a year there's a suicide by gun in the nearby National Forest, often by someone who traveled hundreds of miles to get there.

Aokigahara

206 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:24:29pm

Louis Gohmert says the principal should have had her own M-4 carbine. Bushmaster, maker of the school shooter's gun, actually promotes their 5.56 rifles for home defense. Are these people insane? Do they not realize that these high velocity bullets can go right through the walls of a school office or the typical walls of a home? This is why real experts recommend shotguns or low velocity calibers (like the .45 ACP) for this kind of purpose. With so many AR clones out in suburbia, we're going to see some kind of grotesque tragedy from wall penetration, sure as the sun rises in the east.

207 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:24:33pm

re: #198 jaunte

though the proposals that will soon be most seriously considered would most likely not have prevented what happened, men and women of goodwill — and most are — will make the proposals because it lets them feel in control. People want to do something. People, acting corporately, want to legislate and regulate because it is, next to election of leaders, the most powerful act of a democracy.

The efforts, even if they are successful, will not stop this cycle of violence.

Cycle of violence? What fucking horseshit is this turd talking about?

208 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:24:47pm

re: #200 Interesting Times

Again, as I posted yesterday, the only instance I'm aware of where a concealed-carry person stopped a mass shooting in progress came with an important disclaimer: she was a former police officer. That is, someone who knew what the fuck she was doing and likely had shitloads more training than "fifteen hours". And even then, two people were shot dead before she was able to take the shooter down.

I did find another such case, this one from Mississippi in 1997:

he incident began on the morning of October 1, 1997 when Luke Woodham fatally stabbed and bludgeoned his mother, Mary Woodham, as she prepared for a morning jog. At his trial, Woodham claimed that he could not remember killing his mother.

Woodham drove his mother's car to Pearl High School. Wearing an orange jumpsuit and a trenchcoat,[1] he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he fatally shot Lydia Kaye Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Pearl High School assistant band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing five feet away from Dew when she was fatally shot. Woodham went on to wound seven others before leaving, intending to drive off campus and conduct another shooting at the nearby Pearl Junior High School. However, assistant principal Joel Myrick had retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham inside his mother's car. Then Myrick demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?" to which Woodham replied, "Life has wronged me, sir."[2]

209 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:25:36pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

Someone is firing a rifle like that, you have to take them down swiftly. I'd say the right action had the shooter's gun not jammed would have been to open fire. The key thing is to take the shooter out, if a through shot hits someone else, then I'd have to rate them as collateral damage. If that sounds ruthless, that's because it is. Ruthless and decisive action would be the way to save lives.

Again with the fantasies.

All of these 'citizen vs spree shooter' postulations are no different from anything the 101st Chairborne Keyboard Kommandos dream up. And no different from talking about 'teaching the controversy' and blathering about hockey sticks. It's time to stop pretending, and time to stop giving this nonsense the time of day.

210 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:26:39pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel

Louis Gohmert says the principal should have had her own M-4 carbine. Bushmaster, maker of the school shooter's gun, actually promotes their 5.56 rifles for home defense. Are these people insane? Do they not realize that these high velocity bullets can go right through the walls of a school office or the typical walls of a home? This is why real experts recommend shotguns or low velocity calibers (like the .45 ACP) for this kind of purpose. With so many AR clones out in suburbia, we're going to see some kind of grotesque tragedy from wall penetration, sure as the sun rises in the east.

When was the last time you saw these people really think things through?

211 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:27:28pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel

Louis Gohmert says the principal should have had her own M-4 carbine. Bushmaster, makers of the school shooter's gun, actually promotes their 5.56 rifles for home defense. Are these people insane? Do they not realize that these high velocity bullets can go right through the walls of a school office or the typical walls of a home? This is why real experts recommend shotguns or low velocity calibers (like the .45 ACP) for this kind of purpose. With so many AR clones out in suburbia, we're going to see some kind of grotesque tragedy from wall penetration, sure as the sun rises in the east.

There are home defense rounds available in 5.56x45 caliber. Some are frangible, while other are shaped to reduce their ability to penetrate barriers. So that problem can be overcome with the right ammo.

212 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:28:56pm

I found an interesting incident where a man with a ccw shot a man that was beating a policeman badly.

[Link: www.wafb.com...]

East Baton Rouge Sheriff's spokesman Greg Phares says Officer Brian Harrision was escorting a funeral procession Friday when he pulled Temple over and wrote him a ticket for breaking into the procession. According to Phares, that's when Temple attacked Harrison. Police say Perry Stevens was walking outside of the Auto Zone on Greenwell Springs Road when he heard Harrison yelling for help. Harrison was reportedly on his back with Temple on top of him. That's when Stevens went to his car and grabbed his .45 caliber pistol.

According to Col. Greg Phares, "[Mr. Stevens] orders Mr. Temple to stop and get off the officer. The verbal commands are ignored and Mr. Stevens fires four shots, all of which struck Mr. Temple."

213 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:29:06pm

Raising our kids with this fortress mentality is going to work perfectly. I see no problems with this...

214 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:29:57pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel

Louis Gohmert says the principal should have had her own M-4 carbine. Bushmaster, maker of the school shooter's gun, actually promotes their 5.56 rifles for home defense. Are these people insane? Do they not realize that these high velocity bullets can go right through the walls of a school office or the typical walls of a home? This is why real experts recommend shotguns or low velocity calibers (like the .45 ACP) for this kind of purpose. With so many AR clones out in suburbia, we're going to see some kind of grotesque tragedy from wall penetration, sure as the sun rises in the east.

Shot through wall

Shot through wall

215 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:30:24pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

There are home defense rounds available in 5.56x45 caliber. Some are frangible, while other are shaped to reduce their ability to penetrate barriers. So that problem can be overcome with the right ammo.

Or you could overcome it by buying a shotgun and saving yourself the trouble of getting special ammunition for a weapon that was purpose-designed for combat, not home defense.

216 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:30:39pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

There are home defense rounds available in 5.56x45 caliber. Some are frangible, while other are shaped to reduce their ability to penetrate barriers. So that problem can be overcome with the right ammo.

And again with the fantasies.

217 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:31:04pm
218 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:31:21pm

re: #214 Renaissance_Man

Shot through wall

Shot through wall

omg the guy in that first link must be the dumbest man alive. Shooting through the wall to make holes to run cable. Holy shit I wasn't sure there were people that dumb packing heat.

219 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:32:11pm

re: #218 Four More Tears

omg the guy in that first link must be the dumbest man alive. Shooting through the wall to make holes to run cable. Holy shit I wasn't sure there were people that dumb packing heat.

Good to know they're not just handing these things out to any old moron.

///

220 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:32:42pm

This is how far we've come from sanity:

221 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:33:29pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

You still had two fatalities and several more injuries in that case, which wouldn't have happened in the first place if the killer didn't have a gun (doesn't say in the Wikipedia article how he got it, though my guess is that it was legally purchased as well, perhaps by the killer's family to boot)

222 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:34:17pm

re: #216 Renaissance_Man

So, discussion of specialized ammunition is a "fantasy", is it? That's rather dishonest of you.

223 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:35:37pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

So, discussion of specialized ammunition is a "fantasy", is it? That's rather dishonest of you.

In the context of elementary school principals? Yep, complete fantasy.

224 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:35:37pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

The issue may be that since frangible ammo is 40% more expensive, most shooters won't buy it.

225 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:37:16pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

So, discussion of specialized ammunition is a "fantasy", is it? That's rather dishonest of you.

Using it to legitimise the fantasy of firearms having a legitimate home defence use is. We can talk about LB-X vs Ultra all day, and that comes with the mutual understanding that the end goal is still make-believe. Playing pretend with real guns has real consequences, and Americans need to stop putting up with it.

226 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:37:37pm

re: #221 Interesting Times

I was replying to you with another case where an armed citizen had stopped an active shooter. I'd also point out that Woodham used a rifle that isn't classed as an "assault weapon". Thus any proposed gun controls would not have stopped him.

227 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:38:45pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

There are home defense rounds available in 5.56x45 caliber. Some are frangible, while other are shaped to reduce their ability to penetrate barriers. So that problem can be overcome with the right ammo.

I've seen them. A lot of shooters don't trust frangible bullets to feed properly. They are wrong imho, but the suspicion would inhibit their use for many. How many AR owners will even keep a mag loaded with these, and how can they distinguish it from other mags in the dark? I think it pays to keep things simple. Fumbling around for the right ammo, as distinct from the kind that might kill your family in the next room or your neighbors in the next house, and doing this while you think an armed intruder is in the house, does not seem like a good way to keep it simple. A 12 gauge is simpler and cheaper, and has enormously better stopping power.

228 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:38:59pm

I have a better solution for school safety, we clear the fields of fire around school buildings and then employ autonomous machine gun turrets to keep everyone away during school hours.

///

229 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:39:16pm

re: #226 Dark_Falcon

I was replying to you with another case where an armed citizen had stopped an active shooter. I'd also point out that Woodham used a rifle that isn't classed as an "assault weapon". Thus any proposed gun controls would not have stopped him.

And you notice the principal wasn't armed with an M4.

230 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:39:20pm

re: #225 Renaissance_Man

You're spared the downding for the well-played Battletech reference. But firearms do have legitimate use in home defense, and if you think otherwise you are simply wrong.

231 BongCrodny  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:40:54pm

re: #206 Shiplord Kirel

Louis Gohmert says the principal should have had her own M-4 carbine. Bushmaster, maker of the school shooter's gun, actually promotes their 5.56 rifles for home defense. Are these people insane? Do they not realize that these high velocity bullets can go right through the walls of a school office or the typical walls of a home? This is why real experts recommend shotguns or low velocity calibers (like the .45 ACP) for this kind of purpose. With so many AR clones out in suburbia, we're going to see some kind of grotesque tragedy from wall penetration, sure as the sun rises in the east.

If a lunatic comes in shooting up a school, where are you going to keep that thing so that it makes the slightest bit of difference?

Loaded, at the teacher's side, in full view of and accessible to the students? Pre-schoolers? Really?

It's a shame that this country has out and out fucking lunatics like Gohmert in Congress.

232 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:41:28pm

re: #228 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I have a better solution for school safety, we clear the fields of fire around school buildings and then employ autonomous machine gun turrets to keep everyone away during school hours.

///

When you start talking about cutting down trees like that you're walking on the fighting side of me, buddy.

///And I really don't like 'improvement' projects that cut down more trees than are planted or that threaten particularly old or large trees.

233 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:42:39pm

re: #229 Targetpractice

And you notice the principal wasn't armed with an M4.

I was addressing home defense only. The suggestion that a school should have its own arms locker and assault rifle seems silly to me.

234 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:47:47pm

re: #204 Stanghazi

Was it a cute one?
LOL!

235 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:07:43pm

re: #209 Renaissance_Man

Again with the fantasies.

All of these 'citizen vs spree shooter' postulations are no different from anything the 101st Chairborne Keyboard Kommandos dream up.

LOL'd at that one.

236 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:09:10pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

You're spared the downding for the well-played Battletech reference. But firearms do have legitimate use in home defense, and if you think otherwise you are simply wrong.

Your odds of death or injury go up dramatically when you have a firearm or when there is one in the house. Those are the facts. For something to have a legitimate use in home safety, it would actually have to make things, you know, safer. The fantasy that firearms make you safer is nothing more than that - a dangerous game of make-believe that has very real and very tragic consequences. And the cost to the nation is too high to continue to indulge the fantasies of a minority.


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