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628 comments

1 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:58:21pm

No, we can't tolerate this anymore, Mr. President.

You and your opponent pretty much avoided the subject during the election. How about frigging doing something about it now?

2 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:06:19pm

Even after this, I think it's more important to protect Social Security, Medicare,The Affordable Care Act, Medicaid, The EPA (all stuff the Republicans are trying to destroy), put saner people into the Supreme Court, and raise inheritance tax, capital gains tax, upper income tax enough to keep the government solvent. So if the choice is to risk all that for gun control, I'm gonna say it's not the highest priority.

By all means support gun control, but keep it quiet enough that all that happens is that the Republicans overreach and showcase that they're backward, crazy, prejudiced fools.

Democrats can and should take as much time on this as it takes to do it without risking the rest of the only sane agenda American politics has.

3 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:11:26pm
4 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:12:48pm

re: #3 jaunte

[Embedded content]

It's obviously Saul Alinsky's fault since he probably brought up guns once in his life. It's everyone's fault but our gun fetishist culture.

5 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:17:50pm

re: #1 Mattand

No, we can't tolerate this anymore, Mr. President.

You and your opponent pretty much avoided the subject during the election. How about frigging doing something about it now?

Like what exactly?

Fact is that Boehner isn't going to bring any legislation up for a vote, even if he did the Republican controlled House wouldn't pass it, and even if they passed it the Senate Republicans would just filibuster it.

6 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:19:30pm

re: #5 goddamnedfrank

Like what exactly?

Fact is that Boehner isn't going to bring any legislation up for a vote, even if he did the Republican controlled House wouldn't pass it, and even if they passed it the Senate Republicans would just filibuster it.

Depends on filibuster reform come next month. I'm still hopeful that Reid and the Senate Dems have got the spine to see it through, but there was talk about "bipartisan talks," which leads me to think that the Senate Dems are not as resolutely behind the issue as initially assumed.

7 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:19:34pm

Oh! Oh! Can I start this conspiracy theory before anyone else does!

8 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:20:00pm

re: #5 goddamnedfrank

I'll be happy if Obama sets the DOJ to go after gun crime and not state-legalized marijuana.

9 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:22:15pm

re: #6 Targetpractice

Depends on filibuster reform come next month.

No, not really. Not really at all. The House is the obstacle. If filibuster reform actually goes through, all that will accomplish is to make the House Republicans even more intransigent.

10 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:24:59pm

re: #9 goddamnedfrank

No, not really. Not really at all. The House is the obstacle. If filibuster reform actually goes through, all that will accomplish is to make the House Republicans even more intransigent.

True, Boehner came out the other day and stated that any bills come from the Senate after filibuster reform would be "DOA." So, let's be honest, for at least the next two years, we're looking at nothing but continued obstruction.

11 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:25:26pm

This is a keeper.

12 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:27:35pm

re: #6 Targetpractice

Depends on filibuster reform come next month. I'm still hopeful that Reid and the Senate Dems have got the spine to see it through, but there was talk about "bipartisan talks," which leads me to think that the Senate Dems are not as resolutely behind the issue as initially assumed.

Remember, Harry Reid from Nevada, so he's not likely to be eager to run point on gun control legislation. The Dems would also likely lose the votes of some senators (Tester of Montana is one such) for any such matter.

Frank's right on this point. No major piece of gun control legislation will pass Congress in 2013-2014.

13 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:28:44pm

re: #11 Four More Tears

This is a keeper.

[Embedded content]

Thanks for that one. Favorited.

It's glorious to see Fred Phelps get PWNed like that.

14 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:30:58pm

re: #11 Four More Tears

This is a keeper.

[Embedded content]

Reminds me of the dude who wore an I'm With Satan the time Brother Micah showed up on my campus.

15 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:35:53pm

re: #8 Obdicut

I'll be happy if Obama sets the DOJ to go after gun crime and not state-legalized marijuana.

Sure. They should investigate and prosecute the shit out of straw sales. Too bad the DEA and ATF have their funding set separately by Congress, because that severely limits the degree to which Obama can prioritize. Darrel Issa is going to be there screaming about Fast and Furious, attempting to hamstring them as much as possible.

re: #10 Targetpractice

True, Boehner came out the other day and stated that any bills come from the Senate after filibuster reform would be "DOA." So, let's be honest, for at least the next two years, we're looking at nothing but continued obstruction.

Exactly. So it's kind of ridiculous for anybody to be demanding that Obama "do something." He fucking can't. At this point the entire purpose of having him be President is that he's not a Republican too, so shit at least won't get too much worse. We as Democrats advance the policies on which we can win, fight for equality in the courts, try to keep military spending in control, stay on track to get out of Afghanistan and not get dragged into another bullshit war. What we shouldn't be doing is demand is that the administration tilt at windmills or try rolling Sisyphean boulders up impossible grades.

16 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:36:20pm

Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns

...within its own borders, the U.S. gun owning population is on the decline and those gun owners are stockpiling more firearms.

"Those who own guns, own more guns," said Josh Sugarmann, the executive director and founder of the Violence Policy Center, a Washington-based gun control advocacy group. Last year the organization released an analysis of figures from the General Social Survey, which found that both the number of households owning guns and the number of people owning guns were decreasing.

Politicians from both parties have tip-toed around gun control after the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater massacre to avoid political implications in the upcoming election. However, studies suggest they are bowing to a smaller number of American gun owners.
.....
The false perception that there are more gun owners has helped bolster a political narrative, emboldened the National Rifle Association and left politicians worried about losing support, gun policy experts say.

Link fix: [Link: www.cnn.com...]

17 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:37:36pm

re: #16 jaunte

Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns

Gun lobby has politicians scared to displease them. To me, that's part of the problem.

18 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:40:11pm

re: #5 goddamnedfrank

Like what exactly?

Fact is that Boehner isn't going to bring any legislation up for a vote, even if he did the Republican controlled House wouldn't pass it, and even if they passed it the Senate Republicans would just filibuster it.

Re-adjust the 2nd Amendment so that it reflects a world where people can fly shiny metal machines into outer space.

I know it's not realistic, but that's the only way to deal with this. As I said yesterday, as the amendment is written now, it's an archaic death pact.

And as I said earlier today, if we can amend the Constitution to end the sale of humans as property, in theory, rational gun control shouldn't be that hard.

19 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:43:20pm

re: #18 Mattand

Re-adjust the 2nd Amendment so that it reflects a world where people can fly shiny metal machines into outer space.

I know it's not realistic, but that's the only way to deal with this. As I said yesterday, as the amendment is written now, it's an archaic death pact.

And as I said earlier today, if we can amend the Constitution to end the sale of humans as property, in theory, rational gun control shouldn't be that hard.

I understand where you're coming from but it took a Civil War to amend that. And as I said, the gun lobby is very formidable.

20 makeitstop  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:44:23pm

I just walked in the door, and what greets me?

“Take That N***** Off The TV, We Wanna Watch Football!”: Idiots Respond To NBC Pre-Empting Sunday Night Football

Sweet Christ, this country is in trouble.

21 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:44:40pm

re: #19 HappyWarrior

I understand where you're coming from but it took a Civil War to amend that. And as I said, the gun lobby is very formidable.

Understood. However, I'm not budging from this, and I've got 26 good reasons not to.

22 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:06pm

re: #20 makeitstop

I just walked in the door, and what greets me?

“Take That N***** Off The TV, We Wanna Watch Football!”: Idiots Respond To NBC Pre-Empting Sunday Night Football

Sweet Christ, this country is in trouble.

I hate humanity sometimes. I really do. Sometimes I just want to be a hermit where. Of course, there's are a lot of good people out there too.

23 bratwurst  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:52pm

re: #16 jaunte

Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns

Every time I see that "88 guns per 100 Americans" statistic, I get the feeling that typically one guy owns 85 guns and the next 99 people own three.

24 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:46:54pm

re: #23 bratwurst

Every time I see that "88 guns per 100 Americans" statistic, I get the feeling that typically one guy owns 85 guns and the next 99 people own three.

I think there's some truth to that. I've known few gun owners that only own one weapon.

25 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:47:32pm

re: #23 bratwurst

I think you're right. Gallup says about 47% of Americans own guns. Interesting statistic.

26 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:49:05pm
27 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:49:34pm

It seems like the Democrats could make some headway if they could figure out why certain hunters identify with gun hoarders, and why.

28 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:50:43pm

re: #26 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Link fix: [Link: www.cnn.com...]

29 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:51:00pm

re: #18 Mattand

And as I said earlier today, if we can amend the Constitution to end the sale of humans as property, ...

We went to war over that. The Fourteenth Amendment was only ratified due to the imposition of a military government on the South via the Reconstruction Acts.

... in theory, rational gun control shouldn't be that hard.

In theory I'm the King of California, and probably have an equivalent chance at getting reality to play along.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:51:33pm

re: #15 goddamnedfrank

Idea: Everyone does agree that straw purchases are a problem (even the NRA does), so perhaps the president should ask Congress for ideas. Or someone from within the GOP could pick up that ball and run an idea on their own. If its an issue, think about for a couple months then propose ways to deal with it.

Played right: Nobody gets a political beating, it becomes much riskier to be a straw buyer, everyone gets a decent night's sleep. Bit of incumbent protection inherent in it, but that would appeal to the careerism of Members of Congress.

31 jaunte  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:51:43pm

re: #29 goddamnedfrank

Your Goddamnedmajesty!

32 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:51:56pm

re: #7 Four More Tears

Oh! Oh! Can I start this conspiracy theory before anyone else does!

[Embedded content]

On prison planet or above top secret?

33 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:52:30pm

re: #28 jaunte

Link fix: [Link: www.cnn.com...]

A decreasing number of American gun owners own two-thirds of the nation's guns and as many as one-third of the guns on the planet -- even though they account for less than 1% of the world's population, according to a CNN analysis of gun ownership data.
This stood out to me.

34 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:53:47pm

So, yeah I really disagree with the idiotic right wing suggestion that "We need more guns" when we have plenty.

35 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:57:09pm

re: #27 dragonath

It seems like the Democrats could make some headway if they could figure out why certain hunters identify with gun hoarders, and why.

Its a mixture of 'slippery slope' arguments, plus concern over the nature of Washington (much the latter ultimately being about human nature). The problem with political compromises is that they are seldom durable. Reach a compromise on guns, and it will inevitably come under strain a few years down the road when the people who feel they can get more than what they got in the compromise decide to push the issue again. Major issues are rarely ever truly settled.

There's more here but I'm going to hold off on that for the nonce and get some feedback.

37 Robert O.  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:58:46pm

I think this study by ABC News deserve a bump up by LGF:

Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One

Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part Two

38 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:30pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

Idea: Everyone does agree that straw purchases are a problem (even the NRA does), so perhaps the president should ask Congress for ideas.

Oh please. You yourself said you didn't want the ATF to do anything significant to fight straw sales:

Nothing. I want them to go through the motions and not get any big ideas.

Attempting to fight straw sales is what pissed off the Republicans so much about Fast and Furious, and why they had to lie their asses off about what the investigation actually entailed. They couldn't come out and say they were against the ATF getting any big ideas like you did, so they just made up some bullshit about guns being "walked" into Mexico.

39 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:53pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Hickenlooper Points to Guns in 'Video Games' but Dodges on Assault Weapons Ban

CT Sen. Lieberman: Video Games, Movies ‘Cause Vulnerable Young Men To Be More Violent’

Morons.

I think this is what upsets me. The damn politicians want to blame anything but the guns and as we see here, it's a bipartisan ailment.

40 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:01:13pm

Aww, I was going to buy another gun storage tube so I could bury some more rifles in the backyard but they are sold out already!

[Link: www.cheaperthandirt.com...]

/

41 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:01:51pm

What next, music?
Comic books?
Cave paintings?

42 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:01:54pm

re: #15 goddamnedfrank

Exactly. So it's kind of ridiculous for anybody to be demanding that Obama "do something." He fucking can't. At this point the entire purpose of having him be President is that he's not a Republican too, so shit at least won't get too much worse. We as Democrats advance the policies on which we can win, fight for equality in the courts, try to keep military spending in control, stay on track to get out of Afghanistan and not get dragged into another bullshit war. What we shouldn't be doing is demand is that the administration tilt at windmills or try rolling Sisyphean boulders up impossible grades.

I disagree, one should strike when the iron is hot. Public opinion is in favor of something being done, so offer something. Hell, have the Senate bring up a bill and vote upon it, then send it to the House. Put Boehner or whoever replaces him in the hot seat for why this nation will not pass reasonable gun control laws when the public is looking for them. Will public demand ebb? Yes, but what is lost if we make an attempt? The GOP will declare that they were "right" all along about their scaremongering that Obama's coming for everybody's guns?

I'm strongly reminded at this time of those who were "concerned" about the political toll being wrought by working on Obamacare and suggested it be abandoned or at least put aside for the time being and "bipartisan" measures sought that could ease the upward pressure of health care costs until a "better" political climate presented itself. Thing is, half-measures don't get us anywhere and their failure just fuels the arguments against them.

43 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:02:49pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Hickenlooper Points to Guns in 'Video Games' but Dodges on Assault Weapons Ban

CT Sen. Lieberman: Video Games, Movies ‘Cause Vulnerable Young Men To Be More Violent’

Morons.

Let's take a moment to consider ourselves fortunate that, as of next month, Lieberman's influence will be limited to his expressing his opinions on the Sunday funnies.

44 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:03:10pm

re: #38 goddamnedfrank

Oh please. You yourself said you didn't want the ATF to do anything significant to fight straw sales:

Attempting to fight straw sales is what pissed off the Republicans so much about Fast and Furious, and why they had to lie their asses off about what the investigation actually entailed. They couldn't come out and say they were against the ATF getting any big ideas like you did, so they just made up some bullshit about guns being "walked" into Mexico.

I've thought about the issue some more and I think how to reduce straw buying is now something that should be looked at. To a good extent, it was the DoJ Inspector General's report on F&F that cleared the way for me. It's been made somewhat clear what happened, with that in hand I think that progress may now be possible.

45 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:04:48pm

re: #43 Targetpractice

Let's take a moment to consider ourselves fortunate that, as of next month, Lieberman's influence will be limited to his expressing his opinions on the Sunday funnies.

Yeah. He always was very censor hungry. He was bitching about Mortal Kombat way back in the day too and I think he's one of these blame the music types too. What I liked about the infamous hearings that Gore chaired I believe. John Denver, whose music is about as mellow and inoffensive as it gets- no disrespect to Mr. Denver but his music is what one could call tame. Anyhow, Denver was very vocal in thinking the censorship was bs.

46 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:06:42pm

re: #29 goddamnedfrank

We went to war over that. The Fourteenth Amendment was only ratified due to the imposition of a military government on the South via the Reconstruction Acts.

In theory I'm the King of California, and probably have an equivalent chance at getting reality to play along.

Don't care. It needs to be changed.

47 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:06:50pm

Funny how these scapegoats only seem to appear when guns are involved.

48 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:08:30pm

re: #42 Targetpractice

I'm strongly reminded at this time of those who were "concerned" about the political toll being wrought by working on Obamacare and suggested it be abandoned or at least put aside for the time being and "bipartisan" measures sought that could ease the upward pressure of health care costs until a "better" political climate presented itself.

Democrats controlled both the House and Senate at that time. Sure, get shit done when it's possible, and if you want to put the Republican controlled House on the spot, great, go for it. Just don't expect that they're going to pass anything, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.

49 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:09:07pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Hickenlooper Points to Guns in 'Video Games' but Dodges on Assault Weapons Ban

CT Sen. Lieberman: Video Games, Movies ‘Cause Vulnerable Young Men To Be More Violent’

Morons.

Well, that makes sense when you look at the peace and tranquility that was Earth's history before video games and movies.

50 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:11:37pm

re: #49 Kragar

Well, that makes sense when you look at the peace and tranquility that was Earth's history before video games and movies.

Yeah WWII would have never had happened if Hitler hadn't been playing Call of Duty in the Berghof and he hadn't gotten angry about Stalin spawn killing him constantly in multiplayer.

51 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:11:39pm

re: #46 Mattand

Don't care. It needs to be changed.

Oh that's good, because the World's all about conforming to the needs of unrealistic idealism.

52 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:12:37pm

re: #48 goddamnedfrank

Democrats controlled both the House and Senate at that time. Sure, get shit done when it's possible, and if you want to put the Republican controlled House on the spot, great, go for it. Just don't expect that they're going to pass anything, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.

I don't expect anything will happen, but I think every dent in the armor is going to mean a harder time for the GOP in '14. If we want to continue to isolate them, part of that is putting up a lot of bills that have public support even though we know the GOP will openly oppose them.

53 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:13:29pm

re: #37 Robert O.
It takes a lot of training and practice to have any chance of using a handgun to defend yourself. One thing that has occurred to me is that guns are really
relics from a different era of technology. The guns you can buy today are basically refinements of 19th century mechanical technology and chemistry. They would present few mysteries to a 1900 gunsmith. Even the modern looking assault rifles use a basic technology, gas operation, that was introduced on a production scale in 1907. They don't mesh well with the modern sense of how machines are used. They are noisy and they jump around. It is hard to get the bullets to go where you want them to go because they work by newtonian physics rather than cybernetics. They are mostly hard steel and their edges will snag on brush or clothing. They are heavy. They just aren't user friendly. Compared to a video game, or any other current technology, a gun is like a steam locomotive compared to a Honda Accord.

54 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:14:39pm

I don't go for censorship, but here's a distressing fact:

VIDEO GAMES BOOST HEAD SHOT ACCURACY

What a wonderful culture.

55 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:17:46pm

re: #54 dragonath

I don't go for censorship, but here's a distressing fact:

VIDEO GAMES BOOST HEAD SHOT ACCURACY

What a wonderful culture.

Who would have thought that games that includes basic marksmanship skills would boost people's basic marksmanship skills?

56 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:18:52pm

It's the result of video game violence, it's a lack of mental health facilities, it's the side effects of anti-depressants, it's a lack of God in the classroom, it's every fucking thing besides the easy availability of the weapons that were used.

57 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:21:11pm

re: #56 Mich-again

It's the result of video game violence, it's a lack of mental health facilities, it's the side effects of anti-depressants, it's a lack of God in the classroom, it's every fucking thing besides the easy availability of the weapons that were used.

It's also the fact that we have a damn Marxist liberal Muslim as president too.

58 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:22:28pm

Proper breathing techniques are also a factor in accurately firing a weapon.

Therefore, any sort of cardio or controlled breathing technique contributes to gun violence.

59 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:23:04pm

Well I guess violence in media is untouchable. The whole system sucks but it's impossible to focus on one aspect without offending someone.

60 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:23:06pm

re: #58 Kragar

Proper breathing techniques are also a factor in accurately firing a weapon.

Therefore, any sort of cardio or controlled breathing technique contributes to gun violence.

As does having hands.
And eyes.

61 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:23:32pm

re: #58 Kragar

Proper breathing techniques are also a factor in accurately firing a weapon.

Therefore, any sort of cardio or controlled breathing technique contributes to gun violence.

Why do you hate mouthbreathers? WHY?

62 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:24:35pm

re: #59 dragonath

Well I guess violence in media is untouchable. The whole system sucks but it's impossible to focus on one aspect without offending someone.

It's been studied to death already.
There was little to support that violent media translates into violence.

63 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:24:37pm

re: #54 dragonath

I don't go for censorship, but here's a distressing fact:

VIDEO GAMES BOOST HEAD SHOT ACCURACY

What a wonderful culture.

Who the hell uses a "pistol shaped controller" when playing resident evil or any other shooter for that matter? Not enough buttons on one of those to map all the needed commands to, plus they are akward and tiring as hell after 15 minutes or so of play.

64 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:25:23pm

re: #56 Mich-again

It's the result of video game violence, it's a lack of mental health facilities, it's the side effects of anti-depressants, it's a lack of God in the classroom, it's every fucking thing besides the easy availability of the weapons that were used.

Well now that we agree...

///

65 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:25:28pm

And most FPSes are played with a mouse and keyboard.

66 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:26:59pm

re: #20 makeitstop

I just walked in the door, and what greets me?

“Take That N***** Off The TV, We Wanna Watch Football!”: Idiots Respond To NBC Pre-Empting Sunday Night Football

Sweet Christ, this country is in trouble.

The first Tweet in this post is by Bradley Patterson, who was a football player for the University of North Alabama. Note the past tense. Due to his Tweet, he has been kicked off the team, a move we should celebrate:

Mark Linder@UNAAthletics
Thx 2 everyone who brought the inappropriate tweet to our attention. @UNAAthletics does not condone. He is no longer a member of the team.

67 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:27:47pm

re: #66 Tigger2

The first Tweet in this post is by Bradley Patterson, who was a football player for the University of North Alabama. Note the past tense. Due to his Tweet, he has been kicked off the team, a move we should celebrate:

Mark Linder@UNAAthletics
Thx 2 everyone who brought the inappropriate tweet to our attention. @UNAAthletics does not condone. He is no longer a member of the team.

Watch the little dick bitch about PC run amok.

68 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:28:27pm

re: #65 Varek Raith

And most FPSes are played with a mouse and keyboard.

True that, I have serious trouble getting comfortable with playing FPS games on a controller. No matter how high I turn the sensitivity, I can never get the lever of accuracy I can with a mouse.

69 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:28:38pm

re: #66 Tigger2

The first Tweet in this post is by Bradley Patterson, who was a football player for the University of North Alabama. Note the past tense. Due to his Tweet, he has been kicked off the team, a move we should celebrate:

Mark Linder@UNAAthletics
Thx 2 everyone who brought the inappropriate tweet to our attention. @UNAAthletics does not condone. He is no longer a member of the team.

Karma, she is a wonderful lady.

70 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:29:11pm

re: #66 Tigger2

The first Tweet in this post is by Bradley Patterson, who was a football player for the University of North Alabama. Note the past tense. Due to his Tweet, he has been kicked off the team, a move we should celebrate:

Mark Linder@UNAAthletics
Thx 2 everyone who brought the inappropriate tweet to our attention. @UNAAthletics does not condone. He is no longer a member of the team.

71 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:29:47pm

re: #68 Targetpractice

True that, I have serious trouble getting comfortable with playing FPS games on a controller. No matter how high I turn the sensitivity, I can never get the lever of accuracy I can with a mouse.

Hmmm could explain why I was better at the early Call of Duties and Medal of Honors on the PC while I'm awful on the console. I'm better at third person type games anyhow. I love having the element of stealth as an option. That's really not encouraged so much in FPS's.

72 biorabbi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:30:07pm

I cannot bring myself to look at those pictures of the little kids who died.

73 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:30:51pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Hmmm could explain why I was better at the early Call of Duties and Medal of Honors on the PC while I'm awful on the console. I'm better at third person type games anyhow. I love having the element of stealth as an option. That's really not encouraged so much in FPS's.

Three words.

Metal. Gear. Solid.

74 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:31:03pm

re: #72 biorabbi

I cannot bring myself to look at those pictures of the little kids who died.

I know. My cousin's youngest child is that age. Can't imagine how despondent I'd be if she had gotten killed.

75 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:31:12pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Hmmm could explain why I was better at the early Call of Duties and Medal of Honors on the PC while I'm awful on the console. I'm better at third person type games anyhow. I love having the element of stealth as an option. That's really not encouraged so much in FPS's.

Try Fallout.

76 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:32:20pm

re: #72 biorabbi

I cannot bring myself to look at those pictures of the little kids who died.

I looked at the first two, Noah and Emily, and couldn't go on.

77 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:32:21pm

re: #75 Kragar

Try Fallout.

Or Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

78 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:32:33pm

re: #75 Kragar

Try Fallout.

I tried New Vegas actually. I liked it but they're too long. I like shorter games too. My favorite series are Hitman and the Metal Gear series.

79 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:32:57pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

Three words.

Metal. Gear. Solid.

Yeah I hate thinking I'm concealed then I get shot. FPS suck. lol

80 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:34:14pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

Three words.

Metal. Gear. Solid.

MGS is why I got into action games in the first place. I was primarily a sports gamer until I played the first MGS. That and the occasional fighting game. I had Mortal Kombat on my Game Boy and Street Fighter 2 on my Sega.

81 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:34:23pm

re: #67 HappyWarrior

Watch the little dick bitch about PC run amok.

Let the shit head bitch. He'll find there's not much sympathy for a racist with no sympathy for grieving families.

And as for Mr. Patterson's football career, let me just say:

82 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:34:38pm

re: #78 HappyWarrior

I tried New Vegas actually. I liked it but they're too long. I like shorter games too. My favorite series are Hitman and the Metal Gear series.

"Long" doesn't begin to describe most Bethesda RPGs. 60 hours in on New Vegas and I'm only now getting close to finishing Old World Blues.

83 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:34:40pm

re: #79 Tigger2

Yeah I hate thinking I'm concealed then I get shot. FPS suck. lol

I hate getting schooled by my younger brothers when I play with them.

84 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:36:16pm

re: #83 HappyWarrior

I hate getting schooled by my younger brothers when I play with them.

All you need is a box.

85 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:36:46pm

Police: Arrests possible for spreading false info on Facebook after shootings

Authorities investigating the deadly US school shooting warned Sunday of misinformation circulating on social media about the massacre.

Those spreading such fake details could be subject to arrest, Lieutenant Paul Vance of Connecticut State Police told reporters in the wake of Friday’s attack on the Sandy Hook Elementary School that killed 26 people — including 20 children between the ages of six and seven.

The rampage in the peaceful rural community northeast of New York City rattled the country and sparked a frantic search for answers.

“All information relative to this case is coming from these microphones and any information coming from other sources cannot be confirmed and, in many cases, it has been found as inaccurate,” Vance said.

“There have been indications that there have been quotes by people who are posing as the shooter,” he added. “Anyone perpetrating that information, could, in fact, be subject to arrest and be prosecuted federally.”

Asked if anyone has been identified or questioned, Vance said: “They’re working on that right now.”

86 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:37:14pm

re: #83 HappyWarrior

I hate getting schooled by my younger brothers when I play with them.

I turn my console off when my grandkid comes over, don't want to be shown up. lol

87 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:08pm

Ya'll a bunch of noobs.
/

88 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:39:28pm

re: #62 Varek Raith

It's been studied to death already.
There was little to support that violent media translates into violence.

It depends what kind of violence you're talking about. Desensitization to torture didn't happen in a vacuum.

Hell, I'd consider Fox News violent media in and of itself.

89 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:39:54pm

re: #86 Tigger2

I turn my console off when my grandkid comes over, don't want to be shown up. lol

Heh and I bet they're always bugging you to play too. I played the original Call of Duties on the PC back when the series was WWII only and I really enjoyed it because unlike the MOH series, you couldn't be a one man Army- that's why I really like the Brothers in Army series made by Ubisoft because if you charge like a moron in that, you get killed. Plus I liked the fact that CoD brought the Russian front to the gamer and that was a part of the war that until then had really only been seen in strategy games.

90 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:04pm

I remember the joy of hearing my buddies say "DUDE! Stop using the same move over and over!" while playing Tekken and Mortal Kombat.

"But I'm kicking your ass."

"STOP IT!"

91 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:27pm

re: #88 dragonath

It depends what kind of violence you're talking about. Desensitization to torture didn't happen in a vacuum.

Hell, I'd consider Fox News violent media in and of itself.

How so? I know their editorializing is very bad, but are the images much worse than CNN or MSNBC?

/I mostly watch CNN these days and hardly ever watch Fox.

92 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:38pm

re: #90 Kragar

I remember the joy of hearing my buddies say "DUDE! Stop using the same move over and over!" while playing Tekken and Mortal Kombat.

"But I'm kicking your ass."

"STOP IT!"

"Goddamn button masher!"

93 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:52pm

re: #90 Kragar

I remember the joy of hearing my buddies say "DUDE! Stop using the same move over and over!" while playing Tekken and Mortal Kombat.

"But I'm kicking your ass."

"STOP IT!"

*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
*Freeze*
*Uppercut*
FINISH HIM!

94 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:42:06pm

re: #90 Kragar

I remember the joy of hearing my buddies say "DUDE! Stop using the same move over and over!" while playing Tekken and Mortal Kombat.

"But I'm kicking your ass."

"STOP IT!"

I was doing that with Sheeva's stomp the other day in the MK thing I downloaded for the PS3. Drove my brother nuts but then he returned the favor.

95 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:42:45pm

re: #92 Targetpractice

"Goddamn button masher!"

GET OVER HERE! + Upper cut + Teleport Punch
Repeat

VICTORY!

96 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:43:14pm

Or!
*Teleport punch*
*GET OVER HERE*
*Uppercut*

97 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:43:28pm

DAMN YOU KRAGAR!

98 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:44:15pm

"Dude, quit camping!"
"I'm not camping, I'm sniping. There's a difference."

99 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:44:18pm

Cyrax was also a cheesy bastard.

100 Henchman 25  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:44:45pm

Fully loaded Minigun, couple thousand aliens, and no end in sight.

Let's dance.

101 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:44:49pm

Or if you're Kabal. Use that sliding knife move over and over again. Still can't do fatalities to save my life tho. I remember button mashing though once on a friend's Super Nintendo and doing a bablity on him, he had Jax.

102 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:09pm

re: #97 Varek Raith

DAMN YOU KRAGAR!

FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!

103 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:15pm

Don't forget Stryker from MKIII having a gun.

104 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:28pm

re: #89 HappyWarrior

Heh and I bet they're always bugging you to play too. I played the original Call of Duties on the PC back when the series was WWII only and I really enjoyed it because unlike the MOH series, you couldn't be a one man Army- that's why I really like the Brothers in Army series made by Ubisoft because if you charge like a moron in that, you get killed. Plus I liked the fact that CoD brought the Russian front to the gamer and that was a part of the war that until then had really only been seen in strategy games.

I play mostly war games also like the Tiger Woods games and I want to play a couple new games that have come out. Hitman:Absolution and Assassin's Creed III

105 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:34pm

ABACABB

106 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:46:27pm

re: #104 Tigger2

I play mostly war games also like the Tiger Woods games and a want to play a couple new games that have come out. Hitman:Absolution and Assassin's Creed III

Try X-Com

107 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:46:39pm

re: #104 Tigger2

I play mostly war games also like the Tiger Woods games and a want to play a couple new games that have come out. Hitman:Absolution and Assassin's Creed III

Yeah I got Absolution. First Hitman I got for the console. Going to play ACIII after I beat ACII. I only beat the first AC last month.

108 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:10pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

How so? I know their editorializing is very bad, but are the images much worse than CNN or MSNBC?

/I mostly watch CNN these days and hardly ever watch Fox.

People who watch fox news can't differentiate between fantasy and reality.

109 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:11pm

Still amuses me a great deal that all the things that I used to hear so much whining about in FPS games back in the day are now accepted strategy in TF2. Spawn camping FTW!

110 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:48pm

re: #106 Kragar

Try X-Com

Thanks I'll try it.

111 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:52pm

Button mashing works when choosing a defensive play in Madden too. Oh blitz? That sounds good. And then I get burned for a long touchdown with a back with the speed of Jerome Bettis.*
*Jerome Bettis now that he's retired, now the Bus of his prime.

112 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:48:40pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

Still amuses me a great deal that all the things that I used to hear so much whining about in FPS games back in the day are now accepted strategy in TF2. Spawn camping FTW!

The only FPS I enjoyed was Tribes.
Not a fan of the genre in general.

113 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:49:11pm

re: #110 Tigger2

Thanks I'll try it.

Enemy Unknown is the latest. The other titles were from back in the 90s.

114 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:50:28pm

I do like the GTA series for the story, humor, and lots of things you can do. I don't mind Saints Row but I find it a little too silly. Give me something like GTA San Andreas where you have good laughs but also a nice story too. Of course, my dream game is something like what EA did with the Saboteur during WWII in Occupied Paris though the missions in that game were a little too repetitive.

115 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:50:56pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

The only FPS I enjoyed was Tribes.
Not a fan of the genre in general.

Used to play a lot of Tribes 2 back in the day, which was fun if for no other reason than you didn't have to worry about installing mods because most of that was handled on the server-side. You could spend more time playing the game and enjoying new and inventive ways to die.

116 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:51:19pm

re: #114 HappyWarrior

I do like the GTA series for the story, humor, and lots of things you can do. I don't mind Saints Row but I find it a little too silly. Give me something like GTA San Andreas where you have good laughs but also a nice story too. Of course, my dream game is something like what EA did with the Saboteur during WWII in Occupied Paris though the missions in that game were a little too repetitive.

Heh, the whole point of Saint's Row is its' silliness.
Love that game.

117 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:52:14pm

re: #113 Kragar

Enemy Unknown is the latest. The other titles were from back in the 90s.

Ok will look for all of them. Is it like the Silent Hills and Resident Evils were ya have to start with the first for them to make sense on some things.

118 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:53:26pm

re: #115 Targetpractice

Used to play a lot of Tribes 2 back in the day, which was fun if for no other reason than you didn't have to worry about installing mods because most of that was handled on the server-side. You could spend more time playing the game and enjoying new and inventive ways to die.

SHAZBOT!

119 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:53:28pm

re: #117 Tigger2

Ok will look for all of them. Is it like the Silent Hills and Resident Evils were ya have to start with the first for them to make sense on some things.

No, they did a complete reboot.

3rd person squad based combat. Pretty fun.

120 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:53:50pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Heh, the whole point of Saint's Row is its' silliness.
Love that game.

I know. It's just a little too silly for me at times. I mean the big clones in the last game. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy it and it's a good series but I prefer a balance given the choice.

121 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:54:37pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Heh, the whole point of Saint's Row is its' silliness.
Love that game.

I like Saint's Row and the God Father and Mafia.

122 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:54:48pm

See Silent Hill's been brought up. I like that series better than Resident Evil. The plot twist in the second one is one of the better ones in gaming if you ask me. Won't ruin it though.

123 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:00pm

Oddly enough, the big game I'm waiting for next year isn't even an FPS, it's the new Simcity. Sorta curious if they can resurrect the series after Societies was such a letdown and Will Wright abandoned the whole franchise to do...whatever he doing these days.

124 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:07pm

re: #121 Tigger2

I like Saint's Row and the God Father and Mafia.

Yeah, liked the Mafia series.

125 Henchman 25  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:24pm

The FPS I played were primarily Doom, Quake, and Serious Sam. I have a thing for fighting off impossibly large numbers of enemies it seems.

126 efuseakay  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:31pm

re: #90 Kragar

I remember the joy of hearing my buddies say "DUDE! Stop using the same move over and over!" while playing Tekken and Mortal Kombat.

"But I'm kicking your ass."

"STOP IT!"

UP DOWN UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT B A START!

127 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:50pm

re: #122 HappyWarrior

See Silent Hill's been brought up. I like that series better than Resident Evil. The plot twist in the second one is one of the better ones in gaming if you ask me. Won't ruin it though.

Silent Hill was awesome

128 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:51pm

re: #123 Targetpractice

Oddly enough, the big game I'm waiting for next year isn't even an FPS, it's the new Simcity. Sorta curious if they can resurrect the series after Societies was such a letdown and Will Wright abandoned the whole franchise to do...whatever he doing these days.

Man, I still have Simcity for the SNES.

129 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:56:39pm

I was disappointed by Mafia 2 but I loved the setting and plot. To clarify, the immediate post WWII world is one of my favorite times to read lit set in and watch movies take place in too. The golden age of guys like Paulie from Goodfellas so to speak.

130 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:57:26pm

re: #127 Tigger2

Silent Hill was awesome

Scariest game I've played. Resident Evil never really terrified me. I had some chilling moments but there was some great psychological horror in SH.

131 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:58:09pm

Goodnight, all.

132 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:58:20pm

re: #128 Varek Raith

Man, I still have Simcity for the SNES.

I've got Simcity, 2000, 3000, 4, and Societies. Always loved the games, even if they liked to beat me over the head with difficulty. Think what really appeals to me about the new one is they look like they're taking some of the better elements from past games and working them together to create a seamless product.

133 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:59:02pm

I miss the old PS2 series Deception. Basic idea was you were responsible for stories about a haunted house and had to set up traps to kill visitors.

134 Tigger2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:59:25pm

re: #130 HappyWarrior

Scariest game I've played. Resident Evil never really terrified me. I had some chilling moments but there was some great psychological horror in SH.

LOL I know what ya mean. I had a few OH Shit moments playing both games.

135 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:00:17pm

re: #134 Tigger2

LOL I know what ya mean.

The kids in that elementary school in the first game. Pyramid Head in number 2.

136 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:00:38pm

Fatal Frame is pretty good.

137 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:00:40pm

re: #133 Kragar

I miss the old PS2 series Deception. Basic idea was you were responsible for stories about a haunted house and had to set up traps to kill visitors.

Was looking up an old game the other day that I used to have hours of fun playing, Evil Genius. One of the few games where the goal was to play the bad guy.

138 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:01:18pm

re: #137 Targetpractice

Was looking up an old game the other day that I used to have hours of fun playing, Evil Genius. One of the few games where the goal was to play the bad guy.

I have that.
XD

139 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:03:17pm

re: #138 Varek Raith

I have that.
XD

Always had a special sort of fun with the interrogations, especially when you started getting some of the more advanced objects.

140 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:05:13pm

Best site ever.
[Link: www.gog.com...]

141 HappyWarrior  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:08:43pm

re: #140 Varek Raith

Best site ever.
[Link: www.gog.com...]

Only five bucks. Hmmm this could be a nice investment.

142 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:16:59pm

Sleepy time.
Later.

143 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:19:59pm

Here's my favorite H.R. Giger inspired pinball game with music by John Petrucci:

144 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:36:53pm

SSoHPKC (Seamus) has now passed 10,000 gaming videos uploaded to his YouTube channel. The guy is great to watch because he really is not a pro, he can't stealth for shit, always gets turned around and goes the wrong way, and misses obvious clues and items constantly.

You end up yelling stuff at your monitor like "You idiot the freaking key was right there on the desk!" or "No you dumbass that is the way you came from!"

Still he has a very dry sense of humor and is good at keeping up an interesting running commentary throughout his videos. I like watching him because he makes me feel better about my own mediocre game play, it is nice to see someone else play that you know you can do better than. lol

145 freetoken  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:42:04pm
146 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:53:53pm

Being a Lubbockite, Dr. Donald May ("Mr. Conservative") has to double down on the already doubled down right wing crazy:
Gun Free Zones Must be Banned!

If the principal had an “assault weapon” in a gun safe in her office, she would have had a chance of stopping the shooter. “Assault weapons” are not just for offense; “assault weapons” are even more effective as defensive weapons. A capable civilian can get off 3 to 5 shots per second from a semi-automatic “assault weapon,” sending a withering hail of bullets at one or multiple assailants. A 20-shot clip would have given the principal a good opportunity for a vital hit.

Apparently the madman murderer at Sandy Hook was wearing a bulletproof vest. Even so, an assault weapon aimed at his face, groin, or legs would have had a good chance of one or more hits that could have killed or disabled him. Other teachers should also have had access to “assault weapons” or at least semi-automatic handguns with large capacity clips filled with antipersonnel ammunition.

1. No way can you get off 3-5 shots per second from a semi-auto. If you could, there would be no reason for the full-auto burst mode on military versions.
2. A 5.56 rifle will easily penetrate body armor, especially at close range.
3. Why would the shooter stop long enough for the principal to retrieve her rifle from its locker?
4. Check yourself into a psychiatric ward, you're nuts.

147 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:04:52am

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

If the shooter's mother had simply gone around fully armed at all times, then she could have shot her son before he even left the state.

Its almost like owning all those guns did no good at all.
/

148 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:22:21am

This was posted at Breitbart as some kind of stupid comment on dogs doing what liberals are unwilling to do. I already knew they supported the right to keep and arm bears, or something like that, but dogs?
Dogs discover guns

I'll see their gun dogs and raise them one:

149 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:38:24am

God only knows what would have happened if I ever had access to guns. Many years ago, I was a seething ball of fury. I hated everybody. Really hated. I didn't blame people for my problems, I was just jealous. I couldn;t figure out how they could have normal lives and I couldn't do anything. Especially because I was so obviously superior to them. I always told myself that I had tremendous self control (I have a lot but it's not infinite), but I was always looking for fights. I would be wantonly aggressive, just daring somebody to make a move. I was truly on a hair trigger. It's a miracle I didn't lash out. Like I said before I thought I had super self discipline. Finally there came a night where I couldn't pick a fight. It was after summer finals at Drexel and the campus was almost deserted. I didn't realize that at the time because I had stopped attending class a year before but I hung around thinking I could get my sorry ass back in. Long story short I found myself fighting with a police officer for his gun. I don't know what I was going to do, it was probably a suicide by cop attempt. I can't say what I would have done with that gun. My fraternity brothers broke it up by hitting he a couple times with a lacrosse stick. Deep down, I think I know that I was a danger to people and I and other people (note the way I still say that after all these years that I put me in front of the people I could have hurt and I know exactly what I am) were lucky I never got my hands on a gun. The point I am stumbling towards is that I managed to avoid hurting anyone seriously (Outside of a lot of fistfights) but with a gun, who knows what havoc I could have wreaked. Three decades later, I don't hate anybody anymore. I am jealous, I still don't know how you people get by. I still have flashes of rage (I joke about my awesome hollering voice, nobody knows where that power comes from!). Just in case, there are still some things I will never do. I will never drink, do any drugs (I'm not taking any chances) and I will never touch a gun again.

150 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:46:24am

I still don't think I made the point I was trying to! If you have a gun, a guy like me wouldn't need one, I would just take yours. After 9/11, when they put national guardsmen in the airports, it was such a joke. It was obvious to me that they didn't have ammunition. (Besides a sick ability to read people) but if those guardsmen had functional weapons with ammunition, there was no way he could stop a guy like me from stopping to tie my shoes and then decking him and taking that weapon. They were just way too casual about letting people walk up close to them.

151 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:54:03am

Morning, all

152 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:54:54am

re: #151 researchok

Yo

153 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:55:27am

I think we're all there is

154 kwb2003  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:56:54am

Dana Loesch just Tweeted that Obamas speech was a politicized call for gun control. Did I miss part of the speech or something?

155 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:57:36am

The President speaketh in a code that we do not understand. It's all subliminal.

156 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:58:56am

re: #154 kwb2003

She was probably playing it backwards.

157 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:59:27am

I keep thinking that Dana is a man.

158 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:59:42am

re: #155 SteveMcG

You need the Seekret Muslim Decoder Ring

159 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:02:56am

I forgot to check out the halftime on the Sunday night football game. Did Bob Costas go all hating on guns again?

160 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:09:02am

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Again again gain:

Any maniac with a gun can wreak havoc with little or no training.

To defend yourself with a gun, you need a fair amount of training and good nerves.

To defend others - especially in a crowded public place - you need extensive training, nerves of steel and a sound sense orf judgement.

Are we going to make that part of the qualifications set for teachers and school administrators?

161 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:14:37am

Might as well take a nap before my alarm clock goes off.

162 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:38:19am
163 kwb2003  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:22:05am

re: #156 wheat-dogghazi
That's it! Backmasking was what they called it back it the 80s. Some people believed if you spun certain records backwards, you'd get a message from Satan or something. Maybe Obamas trying to sublimely send us a message from the man downstairs to disarm ourselves so we can't defend ourselves from the godless hordes ( commies, islamers, democrats, etc). I'm
playing my DVR backwards so I can find out.

164 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:24:54am

re: #160 Sol Berdinowitz

Are we going to make that part of the qualifications set for teachers and school administrators?

Sure, but it has to wait until after we break up the teachers union, take away their benefits and retirement, and lower their pay. Then we can demand they take 1 or 2 hours of weapons training and hand them a semi-auto pistol that they are required to carry at work.

If any of them don't like it we can just fire them and hire someone else that doesn't have a problem with it. No more union means no more work rules or dismissal rules or binding arbitration, we can hire and fire at will then.

It would probably be best if we just got rid of most of the existing teachers (females can't shoot under stress) and only hired people with combat experience from now on. Sure the bleeding heart liberals will probably whine about hiring teachers with fighting experience instead of certified teaching credentials, but screw those pansies.

What is more important, that little Johnny learns reading, writing, and arithmetic, or that he makes it through the school day alive?

///

165 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:28:07am

re: #33 HappyWarrior

A decreasing number of American gun owners own two-thirds of the nation's guns and as many as one-third of the guns on the planet -- even though they account for less than 1% of the world's population, according to a CNN analysis of gun ownership data.
This stood out to me.

And yet Americans are willing to sacrifice thousands of people to appease this tiny demographic.

167 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:35:18am

re: #163 kwb2003

That's it! Backmasking was what they called it back it the 80s. Some people believed if you spun certain records backwards, you'd get a message from Satan or something. Maybe Obamas trying to sublimely send us a message from the man downstairs to disarm ourselves so we can't defend ourselves from the godless hordes ( commies, islamers, democrats, etc). I'm
playing my DVR backwards so I can find out.

Good joke from the 80s:

If you play the new Rolling Stones record backwards, at the end there's a secret message.

The message is: Congratulations! You have just fucked up your stylus.

168 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:37:00am

re: #167 iossarian

Good joke from the 80s:

If you play the new Rolling Stones record backwards, at the end there's a secret message.

The message is: Congratulations! You have just fucked up your stylus.

I recall that from a George Carlin sketch.

PS: I buried Paul

169 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:38:28am

re: #167 iossarian

Good joke from the 80s:

If you play the new Rolling Stones record backwards, at the end there's a secret message.

The message is: Congratulations! You have just fucked up your stylus.

During their subliminal message trial, Rob Halford said something to the effect of "If we were going to put subliminal message on our albums, the message would be 'buy more Judas Priest merchandise'."

170 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:41:01am

re: #167 iossarian

I can remember not only the stories about Satanic messages in rock tunes played backwards, but also messages about "Paul is dead" on some Beatles album or another. Then as now I have to wonder why anyone would *want* to play an album backwards, since it's sure to damage both the vinyl and the stylus. And custom-building a turntable to spin a record in reverse seemed like a real waste of money.

Yet, the religious nutjobs back then (the ones setting fire to piles of "Satanic" rock albums) insisted the messages were really there. How did they know? Did they actually spin the albums in reverse? I still wonder about it.

171 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:41:39am

re: #165 Renaissance_Man

And yet Americans are willing to sacrifice thousands of people to appease this tiny demographic.

But, but WE are defending the CONSTItution of the United States of America! Without an armed CITIZENRY of wingnuts, whack-jobs, and conspiracy theorists able to DEFEND themselves this COUNTRY is DOOMED! The GOVernment would OPEN up the secret FEMA death camps and herd ALL the WHITE non-Muslim people into the ovens with black HELICOPTERS. Guns are THE only thing that keeps this country FREE from the U.N. Socialist Reptillian Bilderberg Illuminati NWO plots!!!

172 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:00:04am

re: #170 wheat-dogghazi

Yet, the religious nutjobs back then (the ones setting fire to piles of "Satanic" rock albums) insisted the messages were really there. How did they know? Did they actually spin the albums in reverse? I still wonder about it.

Maybe it's like the anti-gay preachers today. They really, really wanted to try it, but they knew it was evil, so they didn't.

(Then they did anyway and fucked up their styluses.)

173 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:00:35am

FESTIVUS!

(type it into google)

174 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:11:14am

re: #172 iossarian

When I was a young reporter, I once interviewed a pastor who was convinced Olivia Newton-John was a sinful influence on the youth of the nation. I think the album in question was Physical. Into the bonfire it went. I'm not sure about the several million others that were pressed worldwide. They no doubt survived, which means the youth of the world are all in deep trouble.

175 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:11:50am

Bonfire of the inanities.

176 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:31:22am

The RWNJs will no doubt go into a frothing rage over anything Obama proposes in the way of gun control. Since they are already continuously in a frothing rage though, it won't matter.
This is the line in the sand. We either do something real to stop these massacres or we become a big Mogadishu. I've been to Mogadishu. Didn't like it a damn bit.

177 freetoken  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:53:11am
178 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:55:07am

re: #176 Shiplord Kirel

We either do something real to stop these massacres or we become a big Mogadishu. I've been to Mogadishu. Didn't like it a damn bit.

This is one scenario I foth fear and yet see as the only way we will finally come to terms with these guys: following a major natual/man-made disaster (especially a succesful terrorist attack) which leads to the collapse of civil authority over a large area, we can well expect to see these guys go full Wolverine on us, driving around in their SUV's, shooting down anyone that they find suspicious (generally dark-skinned).

And when the government tries to restore order, we could have a real nasty shootin' match on our hands.

We have been lucky so far...but Mogadishu is is just a shot away....

179 kwb2003  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:10:22am

re: #167 iossarian

Lol. I wonder how many people here are old enough to know what a stylus is?

180 freetoken  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:11:15am

Shopping around for some gifts and am looking for some stones for a particular individual, and looking at the following Amazon product and checking the reviews I come across this:

My stones are gorgeous, all 36 of them! They arrived promptly, and as shown--a very beautiful variety of shapes and colors. There's about five of them that aren't 100% smooth, just as an FYI. I washed them with sea salt to neutralize their energy and I'm keeping them in the window to "charge" them with some solar/lunar energy. I'll be using my stones for metaphysical/healing purposes.

In all my physics classes I don't remember anything like this. It must have been covered on a day I skipped class.

181 freetoken  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:12:33am

re: #179 kwb2003

Lol. I wonder how many people here are old enough to know what a stylus is?

Don't be silly. Everyone knows the ancients wrote on stones covered in soft materials and used a stylus to make inscriptions, don't they?

182 freetoken  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:16:31am
183 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:17:19am

re: #180 freetoken

Shopping around for some gifts and am looking for some stones for a particular individual, and looking at the following Amazon product and checking the reviews I come across this:

In all my physics classes I don't remember anything like this. It must have been covered on a day I skipped class.

I studied geology, took courses in crystallography and crystal chemistry and have often asked these New Agers to explain what they mean in terms of what goes in, what happens inside their crystals and what sort of energy comes out of them...

None of them were really able to answer anything to my satisfaction.

184 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:37:11am

re: #180 freetoken

That was the mystical energy lecture. Only advanced students get to hear it, and note-taking is not allowed.

Seriously, New Age-y people get all misty eyed over crystals and sea salt. Crystals (which, you know, are just pretty rocks, basically) supposedly have inherent curative powers. Each type addresses a different ailment. The whole concept probably dates back to prehistoric times. Sunlight or moonlight (= reflected sunlight, but whatever) increases their curative powers, ummmm, mystically. And sea salt is so much better than plain old salt salt, because it's all-natural, don'tcha know. (Unlike salt salt, which comes out of the ground and is somehow un-natural.)

Don't try to pin them down on what exactly all this crystal energy stuff means or how it operates. They don't know, and they don't care to know, probably because they would have to admit it's all superstition.

But mineral shops make a ton of dough off these rubes.

185 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:42:17am

re: #184 wheat-dogghazi

That was the mystical energy lecture. Only advanced students get to hear it, and note-taking is not allowed.

Don't try to pin them down on what exactly all this crystal energy stuff means or how it operates. They don't know, and they don't care to know, probably because they would have to admit it's all superstition.

But mineral shops make a ton of dough off these rubes.

I met a couple in Taos, New Mexico around 1987. They were into dealing in wholesale crystals, had a 1,000 sq. foot room filled with shelves stacked to the ceiling with things, and were full into crystal healing, etc.

They were also into trading real estate, in addition to knowing all the healing powers of their crystals, they seemed to know which houses and lots were up for sale in Taos and what price they were asking...

I was given a bag of "magic healing crystals" from one of my esoteric buddies in Flagstaff, AZ when I left for Europe the following year. I still keep it with me and take it on my travels, mostly as a reminder of my friends back there (and what a bunch of nut jobs most of them were....)

186 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:57:21am

re: #184 wheat-dogghazi

That was the mystical energy lecture. Only advanced students get to hear it, and note-taking is not allowed.

Seriously, New Age-y people get all misty eyed over crystals and sea salt. Crystals (which, you know, are just pretty rocks, basically) supposedly have inherent curative powers. Each type addresses a different ailment. The whole concept probably dates back to prehistoric times. Sunlight or moonlight (= reflected sunlight, but whatever) increases their curative powers, ummmm, mystically. And sea salt is so much better than plain old salt salt, because it's all-natural, don'tcha know. (Unlike salt salt, which comes out of the ground and is somehow un-natural.)

Don't try to pin them down on what exactly all this crystal energy stuff means or how it operates. They don't know, and they don't care to know, probably because they would have to admit it's all superstition.

But mineral shops make a ton of dough off these rubes.

Humbug! To get the full effect from your crystals you have to place them in the center of a pyramid shaped wire frame. It is the pyramid that really provides all the energy, the crystal merely focuses that energy tightly thereby making it more effective.

///

187 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:02:24am

re: #186 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Humbug! To get the full effect from your crystals you have to place them in the center of a pyramid shaped wire frame. It is the pyramid that really provides all the energy, the crystal merely focuses that energy tightly thereby making it more effective.

///

Heresy! Burn him!

188 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:11:41am

TEH DERP!

189 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:17:06am

So what is everyone planning to do over these next three final days for earths existence? Anything special or are you just going to stoically go on with your daily life as if the world wasn't ending on Friday?

/

190 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:18:18am

re: #189 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So what is everyone planning to do over these next three final days for earths existence? Anything special or are you just going to stoically go on with your daily life as if the world wasn't ending on Friday?

/

Who started this stupid fucking meme?

191 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:19:26am

re: #190 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Who started this stupid fucking meme?

The Mayans


(not really though)

192 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:20:22am

re: #191 watching you tiny alien kittens are

The Mayans

(not really though)

Anything in their literature that predicted the Spanish would come and genocide them?

193 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:21:15am

re: #192 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

If the Spanish hadn't come and mucked thing up, the Mayans could have finished their damn calendar.

194 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:22:16am

re: #193 wheat-dogghazi

If the Spanish hadn't come and mucked thing up, the Mayans could have finished their damn calendar.

Maybe they figured they would continue their calendar sometime before 2012, but then the Spanish came and fucked their shit up.

195 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:23:24am

re: #194 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

but then the Spanish came and fucked their shit up.

Language, language.

Visual C++ giving you trouble this morning?

196 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:24:34am

re: #195 iossarian

Language, language.

Visual C++ giving you trouble this morning?

I don't program in C++.

197 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:26:26am

re: #196 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I don't program in C++.

Anyway, I was only teasing.

198 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:30:17am

re: #194 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Maybe they figured they would continue their calendar sometime before 2012, but then the Spanish came and fucked their shit up.

Actually according to wikipedia it would seem that we still have a little time left... (like 2760 years)

Misinterpretation of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar is the basis for a popular belief that a cataclysm will take place on December 21, 2012. December 21, 2012 is simply the day that the calendar will go to the next b'ak'tun, at Long Count 13.0.0.0.0. The date on which the calendar will go to the next piktun (a complete series of 20 b'ak'tuns), at Long Count 1.0.0.0.0.0, will be on October 13, 4772.

199 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:31:56am

re: #198 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Well, now I am even less worried than before.

200 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:32:34am

Meanwhile we have 227 years until the end of the Sixth "Day" in the Hebrew calendar...

201 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:37:58am

re: #144 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Holy fuck, I watch a large amount. I never thought he would appear here.

202 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:44:25am

Morning all!

How is life?

203 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:48:19am

Just saw this Tweet:

What is "mince pie"?

204 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:48:50am
205 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:49:31am

OK I Googled "mince pie" and I still don't know if it has any actual meat in it.

206 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:50:07am

re: #203 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Just saw this Tweet:

[Embedded content]

What is "mince pie"?

It's made from the fruit of the mince tree.

207 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:52:28am

This recipe has quite a large calling for meat.

Probably one of those recipes that varies with each chef. The poorest would have no meat, I gather.

208 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:52:35am

re: #206 Holidays are Family Fun Time

It's made from the fruit of the mince tree.

a North American filling recipe published in 1854 includes chopped neat's tongue, beef suet, blood raisins, currants, mace, cloves, nutmeg, brown sugar, apples, lemons, brandy and orange peel.

That's nasty. I guess they put in enough brandy so the nasty ingredients didn't get noticed.

209 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:55:32am

It is one pie that I have never made, nor had any inclination to make. I can totally understand a winter pie made from whatever dried fruits are available, but beef suet and leftover meat shreds...GAH.

210 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:56:37am

re: #160 Sol Berdinowitz

Again again gain:

Any maniac with a gun can wreak havoc with little or no training.

To defend yourself with a gun, you need a fair amount of training and good nerves.

To defend others - especially in a crowded public place - you need extensive training, nerves of steel and a sound sense orf judgement.

Are we going to make that part of the qualifications set for teachers and school administrators?

You know, that would be a fairly subtle way to potentially break the teacher's union - or at least make it more "conservative". Put in a bunch of requirements for weapons training, etc. and see how many current teachers you can drive away from the profession.

211 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:58:05am

re: #210 Feline Fearless Leader

You know, that would be a fairly subtle way to potentially break the teacher's union - or at least make it more "conservative". Put in a bunch of requirements for weapons training, etc. and see how many current teachers you can drive away from the profession.

If you want teachers who not only have teaching creds, but also HRT training, they're gonna have to be paid in the 6 figures.

212 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:59:52am

re: #209 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

It is one pie that I have never made, nor had any inclination to make. I can totally understand a winter pie made from whatever dried fruits are available, but beef suet and leftover meat shreds...GAH.

They had them in England when I lived there and they were horrific.

213 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:00:25am

re: #189 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So what is everyone planning to do over these next three final days for earths existence? Anything special or are you just going to stoically go on with your daily life as if the world wasn't ending on Friday?

/

I'm making and eating a real good batch of chile.

214 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:05:11am

re: #212 Obdicut

They had them in England when I lived there and they were horrific.

Anything that is a "traditional" food that people make at holiday time out of obligation, not because anybody actually likes it, is usually horrific.

Some examples:

The "3 bean salad" that your cousin Edie brings to every family Thanksgiving (which her mother, and her mother before her also brought) that nobody eats.

Passover Borscht. Useful in suppressing massive fart attacks.

Passover Schav Borscht (borscht made from leaves. It's from when people were starving in Russia and had nothing else to eat)

Anyone else want to share examples of horrific holiday food?

215 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:05:59am

re: #214 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Anything that is a "traditional" food that people make at holiday time out of obligation, not because anybody actually likes it, is usually horrific.

Some examples:

The "3 bean salad" that your cousin Edie brings to every family Thanksgiving (which her mother, and her mother before her also brought) that nobody eats.

Passover Borscht. Useful in suppressing massive fart attacks.

Passover Schav Borscht (borscht made from leaves. It's from when people were starving in Russia and had nothing else to eat)

Anyone else want to share examples of horrific holiday food?

Most fruit cakes.

216 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:07:23am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Not only are we dealing with the ongoing rebuilding from Sandy, but folks up in CT are dealing with the unimaginable horror of the Sandy Hook massacre. In between all that news, I missed an earlier tweet by Ann Coulter in which she mangles constitutional law and appears to claim that the 2d Amendment gives people the same rights as the military to bear arms.

That couldn't be more horribly incorrect and asinine.

The 2d Amendment clearly states that the government has the right to regulate firearms. In fact, the first three words of the 2d call for "a well regulated" militia. Accepting that militia is read as an individual right to bear arms, you'd still be ignoring the fact that the federal government has an overriding power to regulate that right. It can't prohibit all firearms, but in no way, shape, or form does it give an individual the same right or access to firearms as in the military.

The military's constitutional authority comes from Art 1, Clause 8, where Congress must authorize funding of the military. It doesn't restrict the military's use of weaponry. That compares with the 2d that clearly intimates a regulated right to bear arms.

It's past time we start addressing that plain English meaning of the 2d Amendment. That doesn't mean banning firearms, but it means that the ease with which to obtain certain kinds of firearms must be eliminated.

Is there any reason to obtain semi-auto or semi-auto that can be easily converted to full auto weapons? There's no purpose to have those weapons except as a means to kill people. You're not going to hunt with those - even if you're doing it for sport, then you'd completely trash the critter you're hunting.

Same issue with extended ammo holders (clips/magazines).

Mandatory training and periodic license renewal. Fees from renewals and licensing to go to gun-buyback programs and victim compensation funds.

That wont stop all firearms homicides or even another massacre from occurring, but combined with improved mental health services, it could help reduce the chances of another one.

217 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:09:04am

re: #214 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Anything that is a "traditional" food that people make at holiday time out of obligation, not because anybody actually likes it, is usually horrific.

Some examples:

The "3 bean salad" that your cousin Edie brings to every family Thanksgiving (which her mother, and her mother before her also brought) that nobody eats.

Passover Borscht. Useful in suppressing massive fart attacks.

Passover Schav Borscht (borscht made from leaves. It's from when people were starving in Russia and had nothing else to eat)

Anyone else want to share examples of horrific holiday food?

I'd also add corned beef and cabbage for St Patrick's Day. Not a fan of it as a combination, and in my family it was usually overcooked as well.

(And I've pointed out to a friend of Irish descent that it was traditional because at that point in late winter corned beef, cabbages, and potatoes were all that was left in the larder anyways.)

218 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:09:19am

re: #214 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Anything that is a "traditional" food that people make at holiday time out of obligation, not because anybody actually likes it, is usually horrific.

Some examples:

The "3 bean salad" that your cousin Edie brings to every family Thanksgiving (which her mother, and her mother before her also brought) that nobody eats.

Passover Borscht. Useful in suppressing massive fart attacks.

Passover Schav Borscht (borscht made from leaves. It's from when people were starving in Russia and had nothing else to eat)

Anyone else want to share examples of horrific holiday food?

Green Bean Casserole --actually, any casserole.

219 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:10:18am

re: #216 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Not only are we dealing with the ongoing rebuilding from Sandy, but folks up in CT are dealing with the unimaginable horror of the Sandy Hook massacre. In between all that news, I missed an earlier tweet by Ann Coulter in which she mangles constitutional law and appears to claim that the 2d Amendment gives people the same rights as the military to bear arms.

[Embedded content]

That couldn't be more horribly incorrect and asinine.

The 2d Amendment clearly states that the government has the right to regulate firearms. In fact, the first three words of the 2d call for "a well regulated" militia. Accepting that militia is read as an individual right to bear arms, you'd still be ignoring the fact that the federal government has an overriding power to regulate that right. It can't prohibit all firearms, but in no way, shape, or form does it give an individual the same right or access to firearms as in the military.

The military's constitutional authority comes from Art 1, Clause 8, where Congress must authorize funding of the military. It doesn't restrict the military's use of weaponry. That compares with the 2d that clearly intimates a regulated right to bear arms.

It's past time we start addressing that plain English meaning of the 2d Amendment. That doesn't mean banning firearms, but it means that the ease with which to obtain certain kinds of firearms must be eliminated.

Is there any reason to obtain semi-auto or semi-auto that can be easily converted to full auto weapons? There's no purpose to have those weapons except as a means to kill people. You're not going to hunt with those - even if you're doing it for sport, then you'd completely trash the critter you're hunting.

Same issue with extended ammo holders (clips/magazines).

Mandatory training and periodic license renewal. Fees from renewals and licensing to go to gun-buyback programs and victim compensation funds.

That wont stop all firearms homicides or even another massacre from occurring, but combined with improved mental health services, it could help reduce the chances of another one.

IIRc, at the beginning, the nation didn't have a standing army . . . .no?

220 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:10:36am

re: #218 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Green Bean Casserole --actually, any casserole.

Macaroni & cheese is good casserole.

221 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:12:00am

re: #217 Feline Fearless Leader

I'd also add corned beef and cabbage for St Patrick's Day. Not a fan of it as a combination, and in my family it was usually overcooked as well.

(And I've pointed out to a friend of Irish descent that it was traditional because at that point in late winter corned beef, cabbages, and potatoes were all that was left in the larder anyways.)

I like corned beef & cabbage if the corned beef is sliced super-thin and served on rye bread with horseradish mustard, and the cabbage is in cole slaw.

222 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:12:40am

re: #218 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Green Bean Casserole --actually, any casserole.

My America's Test Kitchen cookbook has a variation on that that is actually pretty good. But also more work than overcooking beans submerged in condensed cream of mushroom soup.

223 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:13:35am

re: #222 Feline Fearless Leader

My America's Test Kitchen cookbook has a variation on that that is actually pretty good. But also more work than overcooking beans submerged in condensed cream of mushroom soup.

*wretch*

224 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:14:41am

re: #215 Feline Fearless Leader

Most fruit cakes.

Especially if it's got that gross jellied fruit in it. UGH. Vile.

225 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:14:59am

re: #216 lawhawk

The military's constitutional authority comes from Art 1, Clause 8, where Congress must authorize funding of the military. It doesn't restrict the military's use of weaponry. That compares with the 2d that clearly intimates a regulated right to bear arms.

It's past time we start addressing that plain English meaning of the 2d Amendment. That doesn't mean banning firearms, but it means that the ease with which to obtain certain kinds of firearms must be eliminated.

Why u make Baby Scalia cry?

226 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:15:39am

I'm the guy that scrapes all the french onions off the top of the green bean casserole.

227 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:15:59am

That is, I take them all.

228 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:16:19am

re: #216 lawhawk

It's past time we start addressing that plain English meaning of the 2d Amendment. That doesn't mean banning firearms, but it means that the ease with which to obtain certain kinds of firearms must be eliminated.

Is there any reason to obtain semi-auto or semi-auto that can be easily converted to full auto weapons? There's no purpose to have those weapons except as a means to kill people. You're not going to hunt with those - even if you're doing it for sport, then you'd completely trash the critter you're hunting.

Same issue with extended ammo holders (clips/magazines).

Mandatory training and periodic license renewal. Fees from renewals and licensing to go to gun-buyback programs and victim compensation funds.

That wont stop all firearms homicides or even another massacre from occurring, but combined with improved mental health services, it could help reduce the chances of another one.

YES. THIS. ALL OF IT.

I agree completely.

229 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:16:33am

re: #219 Holidays are Family Fun Time

A minimal standing army most of the time IIRC. Mainly some regulars for frontier protection and garrisoning forts. And West Point got started less for training army officers than for essentially training civil engineers since the military (and the country) had a fairly large need for them.

That partially explains how a bunch of West Point graduates who left the military went over to the railroads in the 1800s. A natural fit.

230 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:16:35am

Corned-beef and cabbage seems to be a love it/hate it meal. WE've actually arranged dinner parties because people request if of my husband. He makes something else for me and the spouses who hate corned beef.

He says it's something about cooking in in the crock-pot with beer. . . .

He's of Irish Descent--that's how he learned from his mom.

231 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:17:19am

re: #221 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I like corned beef & cabbage if the corned beef is sliced super-thin and served on rye bread with horseradish mustard, and the cabbage is in cole slaw.

There's nothing like a nice MLT - mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe.

And I like 3-bean salad.

232 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:18:27am

My mother-in-law loved every gross food ever made. She ate schav borscht, ptcha (thankfully extinct), pickled herring, gefilte fish with jelly, boiled chicken from the soup, and wash it all down with a two cents plain.

233 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:18:58am

re: #226 Amory Blaine

I'm the guy that scrapes all the french onions off the top of the green bean casserole.

Do you scrape the marshmallow off the top of the sweet potato casserole to spare the others?

(I personally see topping mashed sweet potatoes with marshmallow or brown sugar as a crime. They are tasty and sweet enough without the topping.)

234 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:19:49am

Republicans are just despicable pieces of sweaty naval lint aren't they? Guess they don't believe in that whole "will of the people" bit. In November the people of Michigan voted to overturn the Emergency Financial Manager law that Republicans had controversially toughened up. Last week the Republicans of the Michigan legislature passed a brand new Emergency Financial Manager law, in their spare time after passing the new right-to-work laws. This time they stuck an appropriation onto the Emergency Financial Manager Law so that it is no longer subject to a citizen referendum.

[Link: www.mlive.com...]

235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:20:04am

re: #233 Feline Fearless Leader

Do you scrape the marshmallow off the top of the sweet potato casserole to spare the others?

(I personally see topping mashed sweet potatoes with marshmallow or brown sugar as a crime. They are tasty and sweet enough without the topping.)

The best way to prepare sweet potatoes is slice them lengthwise, drizzle with some salt, pepper and olive oil, and bake in the oven.

236 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:20:33am

I love corned beef there's an old Jewish deli Jakes in Milwaukee that makes some of the best. They got 4 or 5 guys all day long carving corned beef it's so popular.

237 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:20:58am

Haggis?

238 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:21:58am

re: #218 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Green Bean Casserole --actually, any casserole.

I've had some good green bean casserole. Usually from restaurants that clearly do more than just drown canned green beans in condensed soup.

Also, Alton Brown has a fantastic recipe for it here. Sure, it takes more work, but it's worth it.

239 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:22:15am

re: #237 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Kishke.

240 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:23:27am

re: #235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

The best way to prepare sweet potatoes is slice them lengthwise, drizzle with some salt, pepper and olive oil, and bake in the oven.

I fix them one of two ways:
Baked - Rub skin with olive oil, baked in oven, split and serve with butter (optional) and black pepper.

Mashed - Nice sort of "cook on back burner recipe while you do other things" that involves peeling and slicing the sweet potatoes and cooking them at fairly low heat in butter and milk. Mash and serve with black pepper.

241 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:23:42am

re: #239 lawhawk

Kishke.

I love kishke.

242 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:24:14am

re: #239 lawhawk

Kishke.

I like the word,

It's one of those Jewish words that sounds like what it is --schmatta, tzochke . . .

243 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:24:54am

I'm lovin' the sweet potato fries more and more restaurants are offering. Probably worse for me than regular fries.

244 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:24:58am

re: #232 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

A friend of might bought and consumed chicken-in-a-can, which I hadn't known was a thing.

Image: 20090430-cannedchicken-shloop.jpg

245 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:25:08am

re: #242 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I like the word,

It's one of those Jewish words that sounds like what it is --schmatta, tzochke . . .

It's just a flour and oil stuffing.

246 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:25:46am

re: #244 Obdicut

A friend of might bought and consumed chicken-in-a-can, which I hadn't known was a thing.

Image: 20090430-cannedchicken-shloop.jpg

OMG you should have warned about clicking on that picture!

247 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:26:29am

re: #244 Obdicut

A friend of might bought and consumed chicken-in-a-can, which I hadn't known was a thing.

Image: 20090430-cannedchicken-shloop.jpg

Probably one of the first things they ever tried to can I expect.
:)

248 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:26:30am

re: #244 Obdicut

A friend of might bought and consumed chicken-in-a-can, which I hadn't known was a thing.

Image: 20090430-cannedchicken-shloop.jpg

OMG, is that a "Sweet Sue" brand?

There is one of their products my dad loved, you'd open it up and there'd be 1/2 an inch of lard at the top. Bunch of my husbands friends decided to use one as target practice, they thought it was so gross. Birds and other vermin probably loved the leftovers.

249 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:29:14am

re: #244 Obdicut

A friend of might bought and consumed chicken-in-a-can, which I hadn't known was a thing.

Image: 20090430-cannedchicken-shloop.jpg

Is this the kind of stuff that gun nut "preppers" keep in their survival pantries, or do they figure they'll just go out and shoot a bunch of pigeons?

250 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:29:52am

re: #214 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Anything that is a "traditional" food that people make at holiday time out of obligation, not because anybody actually likes it, is usually horrific.

Some examples:

The "3 bean salad" that your cousin Edie brings to every family Thanksgiving (which her mother, and her mother before her also brought) that nobody eats.

Passover Borscht. Useful in suppressing massive fart attacks.

Passover Schav Borscht (borscht made from leaves. It's from when people were starving in Russia and had nothing else to eat)

Anyone else want to share examples of horrific holiday food?

Lutefisk & Lefse up here in the upper midwest. The lefse (potato crepes) isn't too bad if you eat it with lots of butter, sugar and cinnamon. Lye soaked fish, OTOH, is never edible.

251 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:30:33am

I could love on smoothies the rest of my life.

I'm just not a foodie.

252 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:34:06am
253 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:34:23am

[Link: www.breakingnews.com...]

Live Update from police

254 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:38:33am

re: #240 Feline Fearless Leader

I fix them one of two ways:
Baked - Rub skin with olive oil, baked in oven, split and serve with butter (optional) and black pepper.

Mashed - Nice sort of "cook on back burner recipe while you do other things" that involves peeling and slicing the sweet potatoes and cooking them at fairly low heat in butter and milk. Mash and serve with black pepper.

They're also good sliced, lightly brushed with olive oil, and grilled.

255 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:39:59am

re: #250 William Barnett-Lewis

Lutefisk & Lefse up here in the upper midwest. The lefse (potato crepes) isn't too bad if you eat it with lots of butter, sugar and cinnamon. Lye soaked fish, OTOH, is never edible.

A couple of guys are sitting around the living room in Minnesota when they hear an explosion.

"Good," says Karl. "Lutefisk is done!"

256 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:40:19am

Just in case anyone here needs a reminder that more guns, or more experts could prevent gun violence like what we saw in Sandy Hook, consider that two cops were gunned down yesterday in Topeka while investigating a suspicious vehicle. Thankfully, the suspected killer was taken into custody after a standoff without further loss of life or injuries reported to law enforcement.

257 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:41:24am

re: #250 William Barnett-Lewis

Lutefisk & Lefse up here in the upper midwest. The lefse (potato crepes) isn't too bad if you eat it with lots of butter, sugar and cinnamon. Lye soaked fish, OTOH, is never edible.

Lefse

Matzo

258 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:42:06am
259 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:43:29am

re: #257 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Lefse

Matzo

So the lefse is essentially the base matrix upon which to put the tasty stuff on?

That's how my brother refers to a number of foods. They're there to hold the toppings, be it pepper relish, butter, etc. etc.

260 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:44:51am

re: #259 Feline Fearless Leader

So the lefse is essentially the base matrix upon which to put the tasty stuff on?

That's how my brother refers to a number of foods. They're there to hold the toppings, be it pepper relish, butter, etc. etc.

It looks like the lefse is like a blintz and you can use it to hold a variety of fillings.

261 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:44:55am

re: #216 lawhawk

While the 2nd amendment did not state what kind of arms the militia was to have the Militia Acts of 1792 did and did require the militia to be armed with weapons equivalent to the prevailing military small arms. That stayed the law until the National Guard Act of 1903, which still makes all men from 18 to 45 members of the militia.

Beyond that I'm guessing you're probably from the city and have little or no hunting experience based on this post.

First, WRT "easily converted to full-auto". Any firearm that is deemed to be easily convertible to full auto is treated by ATF as full-auto by ATF. These kind of weapons, Class III, are heavily regulated by the NFA of 1934.

WRT hunting with semi-automatic rifles. There is a long history of semi-automatic firearms being used for hunting. One of the earliest was the Remington model 8 of 1906; Remington still sells the Model 750. None of these were ever made for military use. OTOH, military surplus M1 Garands and M1 Carbines also have a long history of use in hunting as well.

Personally I prefer to hunt with different firearms but the idea that it is not usable for hunting is a red herring that diverts us from what real and reasonable restrictions might be.

Might I point you to the discussion started by Shiplord Kirel in the previous thread for some good thoughts on what could be done with sufficient political desire?

262 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:46:52am

re: #261 William Barnett-Lewis

Thanks for the clarifications.

263 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:49:22am

re: #243 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Have you tried them with a thin marshmallow sauce dip?

264 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:49:29am

Heh.

Made a blueberry-coconut coffee cake yesterday and brought it into work to be eaten by the coworker cohort. (Uses up the remaining blueberries and coconut from the one I made last week.)

As an exercise in curiosity I did a search in Google on "blueberry coconut coffee cake" to see how similar the other recipes are on the Web. Found a whole lot of close matches, or at least where the base coffee cake recipe obviously came from a very similar source as the recipe I use.

Doubt I will find an exact reference, but I expect at a minimum the recipe goes back to either a Betty Crocker cookbook or something like "Good Housekeeping" dating to the late 50s or early 60s at the latest.

I base that on the fact that the recipe 3x5 card I have was written in the early 70s and I remember the cake being made by my mother even further back than that. I can date the card due to recognizing the hand writing on it.

265 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:52:30am

re: #249 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

That's just wrong on so many levels. I'd rather go pick off a couple of pigeons for dinner.

266 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:53:11am

re: #265 Dr Lizardo

That's just wrong on so many levels. I'd rather go pick off a couple of pigeons for dinner.

I'd have to be very, very hungry to eat Pigeon.

267 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:54:16am

re: #266 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I'd have to be very, very hungry to eat Pigeon.

Don't order the "chicken wings" at a Chinese restaurant then!!!
///

268 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:54:25am

re: #266 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I'd have to be very, very hungry to eat Pigeon.

What about mourning doves? They are supposed to be very tasty.

269 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:55:24am

re: #264 Feline Fearless Leader

My always standard cookbook is Better Homes & Gardens. The 1989 edition is the newest I use because they got too "simple" and "healthy" later on. The latter in mostly trendy was rather than anything real. But the older ones are pleasant to work with. I also like Jamie Oliver's cookbooks too.

270 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:55:33am

re: #268 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

What about mourning doves? They are supposed to be very tasty.

or Squab,,, yum!

271 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:56:22am

Sweet Sue Chicken and Dumplings --that's what My Dad loved.

Look at the sodium.

272 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:56:47am

re: #268 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

What about mourning doves? They are supposed to be very tasty.

no flesh, cooked or otherwise.

just grosses-me-out.

273 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:57:33am

I have a very old cookbook my Dad had --it calls for lard and gives instructions on how to place the wood in your stove for even cooking heat.

274 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:57:45am

BTW: There were lots of good charts and data sets as well as info links being published over the weekend but the real debate on this and the accompanying political jabber won't really get into high gear until after the start of the New Year & next congress.

The news furor will die down, and many people are already embedding in holiday cocoons explicitly because of the horrific news. I recommend that you go back and bookmark & favorite good info & sources now, because you are going to want to reference them after the New Year.

275 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:58:51am

re: #267 sattv4u2

Don't order the "chicken wings" at a Chinese restaurant then!!!
///

And here I thought that the chicken wings was catmeat.

I'm pretty the sure the ex-wife and I ate catmeat at a Chinese restaurant in Prague.

276 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:59:24am

re: #275 Dr Lizardo

And here I thought that the chicken wings was catmeat.

I'm pretty the sure the ex-wife and I ate catmeat at a Chinese restaurant in Prague.

stringy?

277 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:00:05am

re: #261 William Barnett-Lewis

An important point that i think largely gets ignored by the people citing the 'military arms' of the militias back in those days is that these arms were not very good for self-defense, nor were they good for just carrying around. Their main application was the military one of rank fire, or at least firing into ranks. It's another way that the difference in technology between now and then makes the 2nd amendment awkwardly archaic. People also don't realize that the guns of that era were very prone to misfire, including blowing up in your face, and that people wouldn't simply use them willy-nilly the way we can do these days with modern weapons.

278 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:00:45am

re: #275 Dr Lizardo

And here I thought that the chicken wings was catmeat.

I'm pretty the sure the ex-wife and I ate catmeat at a Chinese restaurant in Prague.

I was only half /// when I posted that

Years ago I had a guy that worked for me that on slow days he would go down to Boston Commons and catch pigeons and sell them in China Town (just a few blocks away from the Commons). He never asked what the buyers did with them

279 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:00:52am

re: #266 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Quail is actually quite good. Honestly, I've never had pigeon.

Horse? Yes....it's actually not uncommon here in Europe. Of course, that invariably leads to questions like that asked by an ex-girlfriend: "Do you eat people too?!"

280 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:02:13am

re: #276 Holidays are Family Fun Time

stringy?

Now that you mention it, yes it was. A most unusual flavor as well. It wasn't beef, pork, duck, or anything else, I'm sure of that.

281 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:02:21am

re: #279 Dr Lizardo

Quail is actually quite good. Honestly, I've never had pigeon.

Horse? Yes....it's actually not uncommon here in Europe. Of course, that invariably leads to questions like that asked by an ex-girlfriend: "Do you eat people too?!"

with some fava beans and a nice chianti

282 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:04:42am
283 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:05:21am

In many ways, given the lack of guns in the US at the time of the American Revolution, the 2nd amendment can be seen as calling for increased armament, rather than recognizing an existing gun culture. A very small percentage of Colonial Americans owned a working weapon. It is nothing at all like modern weapon fetishiziation.

284 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:05:22am

re: #281 sattv4u2

When she asked that, I felt her arm and leg, and poked her in the ribs, and said, "I'd need to fatten you up first, but I should get about a good 15 kilos out of you."

I've never heard such a nervous laugh from anyone.

285 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:09:36am

re: #283 Obdicut

In many ways, given the lack of guns in the US at the time of the American Revolution, the 2nd amendment can be seen as calling for increased armament, rather than recognizing an existing gun culture. A very small percentage of Colonial Americans owned a working weapon. It is nothing at all like modern weapon fetishiziation.

That's probably true considering that food animals were probably not slaughtered by gunshot. Even wild game was usually trapped.

286 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:10:53am

re: #277 Obdicut

Actually, that's not especially true. While formal military tactics were based on the line and the square, that had less to do with flintlocks and more to do with their single shot nature. As a result, the real battle was fought at close distance with bayonnete. That was also when the militia usually turned and ran because they did not have the discipline of Regulars to stand there and disembowel one another. In America, jaeger armed riflemen were common and rarely fired their expensive rifles from the line.

And while the flintlock could misfire, the most common kind was the "flash in the pan." A weapon that had any percentage chance of exploding would not have supplanted sword and pike.

I own and have hunted with a flintlock. They are much less antiquated than they seem.

287 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:13:40am

re: #285 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

That's probably true considering that food animals were probably not slaughtered by gunshot. Even wild game was usually trapped.

Yeah, any actual 'food for survival' guy will tell you that trapping is far more effecient way of hunting than using guns, even with today's superior firepower. Traps work all the time. But mostly the colonists ate domesticated animals because that's what the hell we domesticated them in the first place for. Or they traded stuff to the local tribes for wild game.

A rmusket was really expensive and hard to maintain, as was gunpowder and balls. It was all iron, so it rusted unless you oiled it, the powder had to be kept at the right humidity, and the balls and shot would also rust.

288 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:14:48am

re: #285 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

A good study paper
{pdf}

William and Mary Law Review

Counting Guns in Early America

[Link: scholarship.law.wm.edu...]

289 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:15:18am

re: #283 Obdicut

In many ways, given the lack of guns in the US at the time of the American Revolution, the 2nd amendment can be seen as calling for increased armament, rather than recognizing an existing gun culture. A very small percentage of Colonial Americans owned a working weapon. It is nothing at all like modern weapon fetishiziation.

Lots of arguments about those numbers. Out on the farms near or in Indian Country? Lots of firearms, though inexpensive trade guns (smooth bore mostly) would predominate on both native and farmer sides.

In New York or Boston? Not so much. Kinda like today.

290 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:17:05am

re: #266 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I'd have to be very, very hungry to eat Pigeon.

I had squab at a very good restaurant in France about 20 years ago. Good eatin'.

291 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:17:44am

re: #286 William Barnett-Lewis

Actually, that's not especially true. While formal military tactics were based on the line and the square, that had less to do with flintlocks and more to do with their single shot nature. As a result, the real battle was fought at close distance with bayonnete. That was also when the militia usually turned and ran because they did not have the discipline of Regulars to stand there and disembowel one another. In America, jaeger armed riflemen were common and rarely fired their expensive rifles from the line.

I'm sorry, I don't see how that's disagreeing with what I said.

And while the flintlock could misfire, the most common kind was the "flash in the pan." A weapon that had any percentage chance of exploding would not have supplanted sword and pike.

They did have a percentage of exploding, though. If the barrel wasn't properly maintained, if rust had made the barrel sag at all, a blocked shot could cause a backfire. In addition, accidental discharge was even easier and more dangerous, as Henry Knox said.

292 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:18:10am

re: #286 William Barnett-Lewis

Actually, that's not especially true. While formal military tactics were based on the line and the square, that had less to do with flintlocks and more to do with their single shot nature. As a result, the real battle was fought at close distance with bayonnete. That was also when the militia usually turned and ran because they did not have the discipline of Regulars to stand there and disembowel one another. In America, jaeger armed riflemen were common and rarely fired their expensive rifles from the line.

And while the flintlock could misfire, the most common kind was the "flash in the pan." A weapon that had any percentage chance of exploding would not have supplanted sword and pike.

I own and have hunted with a flintlock. They are much less antiquated than they seem.

The issue of "flash in the pan" misfires is also why armies adopted the percussion cap so rapidly when it appeared. With flintlocks, a regiment of 500 muskets would some times only fire 375-400 shots, with the others being "flash" misfires. With percussion caps, the misfire rate plummeted from 15-25% down to 2%. That's a smaller part or why US Civil War engagements were so much deadlier that those of the American Revolution: A great deal more shots were being fired, and commanders could count on that fire being delivered reliably.

293 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:19:05am

Ok, this is 4 minutes of unavoidable cuteness.

dogs and little kids, always a winner.

294 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:19:30am

re: #287 Obdicut

Oil? Nope. Lard though makes a good rust preventer. Especially pork lard.

Shot was made locally at shot towers or in hand molds.

Powder had to be bought but that was one of the reasons for converting corn to whiskey in early america.

295 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:20:08am

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

The issue of "flash in the pan" misfires is also why armies adopted the percussion cap so rapidly when it appeared. With flintlocks, a regiment of 500 muskets would some times only fire 375-400 shots, with the others being "flash" misfires. With percussion caps, the misfire rate plummeted from 15-25% down to 2%. That's a smaller part or why US Civil War engagements were so much deadlier that those of the American Revolution: A great deal more shots were being fired, and commanders could count on that fire being delivered reliably.

Civil War casualties were horrific because weapons technology advanced faster than tactical military formations.

296 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:20:16am

re: #289 William Barnett-Lewis

Lots of arguments about those numbers. Out on the farms near or in Indian Country? Lots of firearms, though inexpensive trade guns (smooth bore mostly) would predominate on both native and farmer sides.

In New York or Boston? Not so much. Kinda like today.

Edit: Bad research. Doesn't seem to be any good stuff out there.

297 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:21:52am

re: #291 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I don't see how that's disagreeing with what I said.

They did have a percentage of exploding, though. If the barrel wasn't properly maintained, if rust had made the barrel sag at all, a blocked shot could cause a backfire. In addition, accidental discharge was even easier and more dangerous, as Henry Knox said.

Wasn't there a big bru-haha over King George putting an embargo on gun powder? and something about wanting to disarm citizens in one colony --Massachusetts? --or have a central armory or something --I can't remember and am taking a day off of researching.

I need to back off this subject.

298 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:21:56am

re: #288 sattv4u2

A good study paper
{pdf}

William and Mary Law Review

Counting Guns in Early America

[Link: scholarship.law.wm.edu...]

William and Mary Law Review commissioned that paper to try to find the truth after the lies of Michael Bellesiles had begun to be exposed.

299 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:22:03am

re: #294 William Barnett-Lewis

Oil? Nope. Lard though makes a good rust preventer. Especially pork lard.

I'm sorry, I was using 'oil' to mean using any sort of anti-rust fat.

300 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:22:17am

re: #295 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Civil War casualties were horrific because weapons technology advanced faster than tactical military formations.

gattling gun?

301 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:22:21am
In the coming weeks, I will use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens — from law enforcement to mental health professionals to parents and educators — in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this.

(The president, emphasis added)


The president's evident position is that mental health problems are part of the cause of mass shooting events and need to be addressed.

I agree with him and I don't think he's using dishonest diversionary tactics.

302 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:23:00am

re: #297 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Yes, a lot of the early political and military skirmishes in the Revolution was the Crown trying to preemptively seize militia's stores of powder. That's half of what Lexington and Concord was about.

303 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:23:36am

re: #300 Holidays are Family Fun Time

gattling gun?

Rifled musket. I don't think Gatling guns were used much during the Civil War.

304 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:25:35am

re: #296 Obdicut

No, actually, the research shows that even out on the frontier, the numbers were very, very low. Not very similar to today.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

...

That book has been discredited, Obdi. Michael Bellesiles was found to have used falsified data, such as his claim to have used 19th century probate record from San Francisco County, when in fact all such records were destroyed when the county courthouse burned down in the aftermath of the 1906 earthquake. Bellesiles is not viable as a reference.

305 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26:15am

re: #301 lostlakehiker

So, in this case-- a highly privileged youth with a wealthy parent-- how could mental health professionals have played a role?

I don't think Obama is being dishonest, but I do think he's co-opting the opposition position as he often does in order to not create a false conflict. Sure, mental health can obviously play a role in preventing gun violence. But the dishonesty comes from the people calling for us to focus on that rather than on guns or gun culture.

Hell, I'd say the biggest contribution mental health professionals could make is by therapizing people out of gun fetishizing.

306 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26:39am

re: #296 Obdicut

As I've mentioned, there are "disagreements" about those numbers, especially as presented in that book. I'd suggest you study the responses to it as well. I believe Satt posted a link to one up thread.

307 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26:56am

re: #304 Dark_Falcon

Can you explain how 19th century data affects the data from the 1700s, and can you link to an academic discrediting that book?

308 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:27:54am

hrmmm: Numbers of Shootings are increasing while gun deaths are decreasing. It's not because the armaments are worse:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

309 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:28:49am

re: #303 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Rifled musket. I don't think Gatling guns were used much during the Civil War.

I thought I remembered something about a C-SPAN book talk

Richard Gatling created his gun during the American Civil War, he sincerely believed that his invention would end war by making it unthinkable to use due to the horrific carnage possible by his weapons. At the least, the Gatling Gun's power would reduce the number of soldiers required to remain on the battlefield.

The author talked about the irony of it.

310 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:29:12am

re: #307 Obdicut

Can you explain how 19th century data affects the data from the 1700s, and can you link to an academic discrediting that book?

It looks like Bellesiles was reprimanded by Emory University.

So far, the energetic debate about Mr. Bellesiles, scholarship and second chances on academic and education Web sites has focused mostly on his 2000 book, “Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture.” It argued that most Americans did not possess firearms until after the Civil War, a radically different interpretation of the country’s gun-owning history and one that entangled him in the bitter and shrill argument over Second Amendment rights.

The ideological debate turned into a scholarly inquiry when critics pointed out several significant errors in fact and sources. An independent panel of three prominent historians concluded in 2002 that Mr. Bellesiles was “guilty of unprofessional and misleading work,”and raised questions about falsified data. Columbia University’s trustees took back the Bancroft history prize it had awarded the book, and Mr. Bellesiles resigned from the faculty at Emory University.

311 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:29:39am

re: #303 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Rifled musket. I don't think Gatling guns were used much during the Civil War.

Only a very few, privately bought by General Benjamin A. Butler. These did not help Butler's Army of the James, as Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard was able to draw Butler's infantry away from their supports at the Battle of Drewy's Bluff then counterattack when the Union troops had become disorganized. Beauregard wasn't that good either, but he understood Butler didn't know to handle a field army and set up his battle plan to take advantage of butler's likely mistakes.

312 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:30:07am

re: #214 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Anyone else want to share examples of horrific holiday food?

Our family's holiday casserole: Ore-Ida hash browns with mixed with Velveeta and pinmentos.

313 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:30:11am

IIRC, John Lott's More Guns less Crime was also discredited. ???

314 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:30:34am

re: #310 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

#288

315 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:31:13am

re: #310 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

It looks like Bellesiles was reprimanded by Emory University.

Thank you, Alouette. I would also cite the research paper satt linked to:

re: #288 sattv4u2

A good study paper
{pdf}

William and Mary Law Review

Counting Guns in Early America

[Link: scholarship.law.wm.edu...]

316 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:32:55am

Mr. Gatlings Terrible Marvel is the book talk I saw on C-SPAN

317 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:33:22am

re: #295 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Civil War casualties were horrific because weapons technology advanced faster than tactical military formations.

Tactics and strategy advanced a lot. Tactically, by 1865, at the siege of Petersburg, we were seeing trench warfare, wire obstacles, sappers and underground placement of explosives. Harbingers of Messines ridge and Ypres of WW1. And earlier, Jackson and Longstreet's conduct of 2nd Manassas was remarkable.

In the realm of strategy, Liddell Hart featured Grant's Vicksburg campaign, and Sherman's campaign from before Atlanta to the end of the war, as prime examples of the strategy of indirect approach.

The reasons the war cost so many lives do not include lack of intelligent leadership of the respective armies. That's a zero-sum game. The first reason was the lamentable state of medicine at the time. The majority of all soldier deaths occurred in camp as a result of disease. A lot of it, dysentery.

As to battlefield deaths, the main cause here would be the unusual determination with which both sides fought. Few of Napoleon's battles saw the dead stacked so high as at, say, Cold Harbor or Antietam or Fredericksburg or Gettysburg. Borodino would be the exception.

318 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:33:29am

re: #283 Obdicut

In many ways, given the lack of guns in the US at the time of the American Revolution, the 2nd amendment can be seen as calling for increased armament, rather than recognizing an existing gun culture. A very small percentage of Colonial Americans owned a working weapon. It is nothing at all like modern weapon fetishiziation.

As I recall reading, it was not until the end of the Civil War, when the veterans were allowed to take their muskets home with them, that gun ownership in the USA became widespread. The NRA was not established until 1871.

319 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:33:41am

re: #312 Sol Berdinowitz

Our family's holiday casserole: Ore-Ida hash browns with mixed with Velveeta and pinmentos.

Broccoli casserole: Frozen broccoli, cheese, onions, water chestnuts, breading and cheese on top.

320 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:33:48am

I read somewhere that most of the wounds of the mechanized wars (Civil War - present) were from shrapnel, not bullets.

321 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:34:19am

re: #313 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, John Locke's More Guns less Crime was also discredited. ???

Sorry but I have to invoke the O'Reilly Rule on that:

You cannot excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

322 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:35:15am

re: #313 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, John Locke's More Guns less Crime was also discredited. ???

Heh, Lott not Locke. And yes, his work is filled with falsifications as as well. There is little of real academic value on either side of this very ideological debate.

323 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:35:42am

re: #320 SteveMcG

I read somewhere that most of the wounds of the mechanized wars (Civil War - present) were from shrapnel, not bullets.

That wasn't true to the Civil War, but it was true during the 20th Century and remains true today. Most casualties are caused by area fire weapons like IEDs or artillery.

324 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:35:42am

On the Gross Holiday Foods topic:

No one has mentioned aspic.

325 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:36:13am

re: #324 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

On the Gross Holiday Foods topic:

No one has mentioned aspic.

What's that?

326 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:36:48am

I think the NRA's attempt to focus on Mental Health is going to backfire. Mostly because every thing I've read from that arena lists limiting access as one of the steps needed to prevent tragedy.

I really like this paper.

Of course, the most difficult part of any reform is to keep the public interest long enough to pass and fund any legislation that might work.

327 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:37:01am

re: #325 Dark_Falcon

What's that?

Gross stuff in a jello mold.

328 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:37:38am

re: #310 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Hrm. Some of the criticism strikes me as false-- for example, Washington really didn't like the militias, so claiming that he found the three ill-equipped ones to be exceptions to the rule is problematic. There's numerous citations of Washington criticizing the militia.

It definitely seems like he has scholarship problems, and so I won't be relying on his data any more. However, stuff like "Counting guns in early America" seems to have just as many problems, since they are only talking about the evidence of gun-ownership among estates that were probated. In addition, they often conflate blades with guns, and when a study of farmers can conclude as many farmers owned guns as a plough and they don't re-examine their methodology, it's pretty freaking weird.

329 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:37:42am

re: #321 Dark_Falcon

Sorry but I have to invoke the O'Reilly Rule on that:

You cannot excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

I"m not trying to excuse anything. Simply pointing out that there is a lot of bad info out there.

330 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:37:58am

re: #320 SteveMcG

I read somewhere that most of the wounds of the mechanized wars (Civil War - present) were from shrapnel, not bullets.

Artillery has usually been the biggest killer on the battlefield since Napoleon. It continues to the present if you consider drones and hellfires as a form of artillery.

331 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:38:02am

re: #325 Dark_Falcon

What's that?

Think of a jello mold, then think of it stuffed with stuff

Vegiies, or meats, or eggs ,, stuff!!!

332 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:38:08am

Connecticut school district in lockdown following report of suspicious person in area


Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

And all the crazies come out of the woodwork whenever there's a massacre. Copycat effect.

333 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:39:38am

In the end, the actual numbers of guns owned is less important than their practical usage. Muskets and flintlock pistols were not effective self-defense weapons or homicide weapons. The vast majority of homicides in colonial America were with blades, cudgels, etc. The colonists did not have to face the same threat from guns that we do today, and it is really important not to ignore that.

334 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:39:55am

re: #305 Obdicut

So, in this case-- a highly privileged youth with a wealthy parent-- how could mental health professionals have played a role?

I don't think Obama is being dishonest, but I do think he's co-opting the opposition position as he often does in order to not create a false conflict. Sure, mental health can obviously play a role in preventing gun violence. But the dishonesty comes from the people calling for us to focus on that rather than on guns or gun culture.

Hell, I'd say the biggest contribution mental health professionals could make is by therapizing people out of gun fetishizing.

The full story of what Lanza was thinking and what his behavior was like in the runup to this event has not yet been told. We do know that both Loughner and Holmes (Arizona and Colorado mass shooters) have been professionally evaluated as psychiatric cases. The president may know something we do not know about Lanza, or he may have been thinking of the whole collection of mass shootings over the past few years, including those two, as well as the most recent one.

Guns and gun culture are certainly a big part of the story. But the problem is big enough, and the mental health side of it is a big enough part of it, that mental health needs to be addressed along with the other things.

335 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:40:08am

re: #325 Dark_Falcon

Think jiggle

336 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:40:22am

re: #322 William Barnett-Lewis

Heh, Lott not Locke. And yes, his work is filled with falsifications as as well. There is little of real academic value on either side of this very ideological debate.

fixed!

337 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:42:58am

re: #320 SteveMcG

I read somewhere that most of the wounds of the mechanized wars (Civil War - present) were from shrapnel, not bullets.

When it comes to WW2, you are correct. Only the German army on the Eastern Front took as much as half its casualties from small arms fire.

But in the civil war, it was very different. At Gettysburg, only some 10 percent, if that, of the casualties were from artillery, and Gettysburg was one of the most artillery-intensive battles of the war. Many were fought in terrain that gave no fields of fire to the artillery of the day. Indirect fire was hardly a factor: with no radios or telephones to connect spotters to gunmen, the technology just wasn't there.

338 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:43:51am

re: #334 lostlakehiker

The full story of what Lanza was thinking and what his behavior was like in the runup to this event has not yet been told. We do know that both Loughner and Holmes (Arizona and Colorado mass shooters) have been professionally evaluated as psychiatric cases. The president may know something we do not know about Lanza, or he may have been thinking of the whole collection of mass shootings over the past few years, including those two, as well as the most recent one.

Guns and gun culture are certainly a big part of the story. But the problem is big enough, and the mental health side of it is a big enough part of it, that mental health needs to be addressed along with the other things.

I keep thinking of the parents of the shooters. I think every parent would want to do what is possible to prevent their child from getting to the point that their "acting out" becomes mass murder. I can't see any way except thru Mental Health evaluations and treatment.

There are early warning signs, we need to take them seriously and disseminate them like we do the early warning signs for suicide. Have a hot line even for those who think they are in danger of committing violence -or if you know someone you think might commit violence.

Really, there is no adequate intervention program. Legal, social or medical.

339 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:45:07am

re: #293 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Ok, this is 4 minutes of unavoidable cuteness.

dogs and little kids, always a winner.

Strange Jezebel does not even mention that the child has Downs, someone else posted that video here a few days back too, thanks it is really cute. Persistent unconditional love from the dog. :)

340 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:45:50am

re: #337 lostlakehiker

When it comes to WW2, you are correct. Only the German army on the Eastern Front took as much as half its casualties from small arms fire.

But in the civil war, it was very different. At Gettysburg, only some 10 percent, if that, of the casualties were from artillery, and Gettysburg was one of the most artillery-intensive battles of the war. Many were fought in terrain that gave no fields of fire to the artillery of the day. Indirect fire was hardly a factor: with no radios or telephones to connect spotters to gunmen, the technology just wasn't there.

In wars past, didn't the a lot of soldiers die of illness or exposure? We don't see that anymore.

341 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:45:55am

re: #269 William Barnett-Lewis

My always standard cookbook is Better Homes & Gardens. The 1989 edition is the newest I use because they got too "simple" and "healthy" later on. The latter in mostly trendy was rather than anything real. But the older ones are pleasant to work with. I also like Jamie Oliver's cookbooks too.

I have a copy of one of those as well - gift from my mother the Xmas after I moved out.

At this point I have roughly four cook/recipe books:
1. Joy of Cooking (1966 edition)
Use it primarily for ideas and general information about ingredients since they cover a lot of basics.

2. Better Homes & Gardens (probably 1990 or so)
Another one that covers a lot of the basics and has some interesting recipes that are not really complex.

3. America's Test Kitchen Best Recipes (2009?)
This is the 8x11" 900 page monster book. I consider it a bit of a cooking education book as well as recipes since they discuss *why* the recipe is the way it is. Have not gotten a bum dish out if this book yet and keep trying new ones.

4. The UNIX Cookbook (1988)
This is a loose-leaf 8x11 about 3/4" thick with chosen recipes from a 900 printout I got in 1991 or so. A lot of these recipes are now out on the internet in various places. There are some wonderful dishes here, including the only recipe my mother actually asked me for. (A sour cream apple pie recipe.)

Beyond that I have 3x5 cards, text files, and some other stuff pulled from the web to cover some family recipes and some derived recipes of my own (such as my slow cooker pulled pork variation.)

342 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:46:14am

re: #308 Randall Gross

hrmmm: Numbers of Shootings are increasing while gun deaths are decreasing. It's not because the armaments are worse:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It's because the ER's are better. I knew an ER doctor who moved from Chicago to Maine just so to get away from the stress. She preferred chain saw accidents and such to gunshot wounds. But she was good, and her fellow doctors who remain in the trenches in Chicago are good, and their equipment keeps getting better.

343 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:46:33am

re: #340 Holidays are Family Fun Time

In wars past, didn't the a lot of soldiers die of illness or exposure? We don't see that anymore.

The overwhelming majority of Civil War casualties were disease and infection, not battlefield wounds.

344 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:46:41am

re: #337 lostlakehiker

When it comes to WW2, you are correct. Only the German army on the Eastern Front took as much as half its casualties from small arms fire.

But in the civil war, it was very different. At Gettysburg, only some 10 percent, if that, of the casualties were from artillery, and Gettysburg was one of the most artillery-intensive battles of the war. Many were fought in terrain that gave no fields of fire to the artillery of the day. Indirect fire was hardly a factor: with no radios or telephones to connect spotters to gunmen, the technology just wasn't there.

And most of the artillery casualties were inflicted on the formations that made Pickett's Charge. Those troops did indeed suffer most of their losses from artillery, though that was to be expected given that they were attacking a position that was well covered by artillery but which had relatively few infantry.

345 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:46:49am

re: #334 lostlakehiker

The full story of what Lanza was thinking and what his behavior was like in the runup to this event has not yet been told. We do know that both Loughner and Holmes (Arizona and Colorado mass shooters) have been professionally evaluated as psychiatric cases. The president may know something we do not know about Lanza, or he may have been thinking of the whole collection of mass shootings over the past few years, including those two, as well as the most recent one.

I'm sorry, how is that in the least bit an answer to my question? I asked what role mental health professionals could play, and you simply asserted that previous mass shooters had been evaluated by mental health professionals. Wouldn't this point more to the inefficacy of mental health in preventing shootings?

346 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:46:50am

re: #339 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Strange Jezebel does not even mention that the child has Downs, someone else posted that video here a few days back too, thanks it is really cute. Persistent unconditional love from the dog. :)

I was wondering. I don't think it matters, calling out the kids condition wouldn't benefit the video.

That kid is great. I love it at the beginning where he crawls up to the dog, sits and puts his hand on his hip like "so, what are you going to do." And then the dog responds!

347 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:47:09am

Looks like those who were questioning the responsibility (or lack thereof) of his mother will wind up being vindicated:

School Shooter's Babysitter Said The Boy's Mom Warned Him Never To Turn His Back

The mother of the Sandy Hook Elementary gunman warned the boy's babysitter never to turn his back on the boy
...
Specifically, Kraft says Nancy Lanza told Kraft "to keep an eye on him at all times ... to never turn my back, or even to go to the bathroom or anything like that."

Even the most charitable explanation for such a warning is that she feared the boy would do something to hurt himself. And yet she kept guns around, and taught him how to use them??

348 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:48:32am

re: #328 Obdicut

One of our family treasures was a powderhorn that family legend says belonged to my great-great-great-grandfather, who served in the NJ revolutionary militia. His initials were carved in the wooden cap. We have documentation that he served, so it's very likely the powderhorn was his. Therefore, he owned a gun at one point.

After our basement was flooded from a burst pipe, I realized that this treasure would probably be safer in a museum. After consulting with my kids, I donated it to the Cape May County Historical Society museum.

349 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:48:59am

re: #340 Holidays are Family Fun Time

In wars past, didn't the a lot of soldiers die of illness or exposure? We don't see that anymore.

Well, in the Vietnam war, exposure wasn't much of a risk, and by then, we had pretty good medical care for illness. In WW2, an enormous number of German soldiers died of exposure on the Eastern Front, and in Korea, a considerable number of Chinese died of exposure. Whole regiments were found dead by Marines fighting their way out of the Chosen Reservoir pocket.

350 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:49:10am

re: #342 lostlakehiker

It's because the ER's are better. I knew an ER doctor who moved from Chicago to Maine just so to get away from the stress. She preferred chain saw accidents and such to gunshot wounds. But she was good, and her fellow doctors who remain in the trenches in Chicago are good, and their equipment keeps getting better.

Some of that is dividends of our fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. The military has made major progress in saving people for have gunshot injuries and they have passed much of that additional expertise to the medical community at large.

351 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:49:25am

re: #348 wheat-dogghazi

Good on you for donating it. Too many family treasures wind up getting just lost in the shuffle or destroyed through lack of care.

352 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:50:03am

re: #347 Interesting Times

and taught him how to use them??

We don't have a timeline

Perhaps the teaching went on before he started showing disturbing behaviour

As far as the yet she kept guns around, I agree. At worst, she should have had a gun safe (and as of now, we don't know for sure that she didn't and he forced her somehow to open it)

353 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:53:27am

re: #352 sattv4u2

and taught him how to use them??

We don't have a timeline

Perhaps the teaching went on before he started showing disturbing behaviour

As far as the yet she kept guns around, I agree. At worst, she should have had a gun safe (and as of now, we don't know for sure that she didn't and he forced her somehow to open it)

This brings us back to taking the warning signs seriously. People don't want to think that way about their children.

I have one relative that absolutely declared war on anyone that "criticized her kid". Nothing you can do about it, legally, if no crime has yet been committed.

354 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:54:34am

re: #345 Obdicut

I'm sorry, how is that in the least bit an answer to my question? I asked what role mental health professionals could play, and you simply asserted that previous mass shooters had been evaluated by mental health professionals. Wouldn't this point more to the inefficacy of mental health in preventing shootings?

The doctor at University of Colorado who deemed Holmes a threat could have been heeded. She spotted the danger and reported it to higher authority. Those facts do not support an argument that it is "impossible" for mental health professionals to have any effect on the course of events. Only that the system as currently constituted isn't getting the job done. Which, I think, was pretty much the point the president was getting at.

And Loughner, too, was identified by professionals as being mentally off. Again, the system dropped the ball. But it needn't have. An attack that comes as an absolute bolt from the blue, from someone who has never been recognized as a possible threat, cannot be prevented by better mental health system and a better legal system for addressing the interface between mental illness and public safety. But these two attacks were not bolts from the blue, and if we make reforms now, future similar dangers may be headed off.

355 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:55:13am

re: #349 lostlakehiker

Well, in the Vietnam war, exposure wasn't much of a risk, and by then, we had pretty good medical care for illness. In WW2, an enormous number of German soldiers died of exposure on the Eastern Front, and in Korea, a considerable number of Chinese died of exposure. Whole regiments were found dead by Marines fighting their way out of the Chosen Reservoir pocket.

In both cases the troops had been sent in by nations not really prepared to supply its troops with what they needed to survive a brutal winter. The Germans didn't because they thought they would win before winter set in (the hows and whys of their assumptions are a subject best left for another time). China did so because Mao was afraid North Korea was about to be overrun and so they sent in as many men as they could, worrying less about their own losses and more about stopping MacArthur.

356 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:55:57am

re: #351 Obdicut

It was sort of hard to make the choice, considering it had been passed from father to son since 1783 or so. It was still in really good condition, and suitable as a museum piece. I decided I really couldn't guarantee its continued safety at that point, and I was pretty sure my kids didn't want the job either.

Now I am glad I did it. It's safe and in a place where many others can see it.

357 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:55:57am

re: #354 lostlakehiker

The doctor at University of Colorado who deemed Holmes a threat could have been heeded. She spotted the danger and reported it to higher authority. Those facts do not support an argument that it is "impossible" for mental health professionals to have any effect on the course of events. Only that the system as currently constituted isn't getting the job done. Which, I think, was pretty much the point the president was getting at.

And Loughner, too, was identified by professionals as being mentally off. Again, the system dropped the ball. But it needn't have. An attack that comes as an absolute bolt from the blue, from someone who has never been recognized as a possible threat, cannot be prevented by better mental health system and a better legal system for addressing the interface between mental illness and public safety. But these two attacks were not bolts from the blue, and if we make reforms now, future similar dangers may be headed off.

Quite Concur.

358 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:55:59am

Somebody on another blog just hit me with a copy-and-paste list of alleged incidents in which shooters were stopped by random armed citizens. I Googled the first item on the list and it looks like it's being spammed across gun nut sites. IOW, a bunch of urban legends.

359 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:55:59am

I stand corrected :
Image: casualty-sources-1.png

360 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:57:41am

re: #353 Holidays are Family Fun Time

This brings us back to taking the warning signs seriously. People don't want to think that way about their children.

Exactly. I suspect she was in denial about just how much of a ticking time bomb he was. And even if she had a gun safe, who better to figure out how to break into it than a kid who's as intelligent as he's described as being?

This may sound sadistic, but it's enough to make me wish she'd survived so she could see all these horrid consequences (victims' families could very well have had grounds for a lawsuit, as well).

361 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:59:22am

re: #300 Holidays are Family Fun Time

gattling gun?

Minie ball making muzzle-loaded rifles work better. Plus the beginning of effective breech-loading rifles.

The smooth-bores had an effective range of 75-100m. Thus the nice Napoleonic tactic of bringing out artillery, massing it about 150-200m off and blowing the crap out of infantry formations. (If you had cavalry about as a threat you could force the infantry into square as well to make an even better target.)

The Minie ball allowed accurate fire of rifle-muskets out to 250-400m. That invalidated the old artillery tactic, and also allowed the infantry to decimate cavalry formations from farther away as well. IIRC, the ACW was the last war where infantry fire caused the majority of the battle casualties.

The tech change made a lot of cavalry variants somewhat obsolete beyond the mobility factor for scouting and using the horse as essentially getting an infantryman to a location (dragoons). Until armored cars and tanks came along 50 years later. The artillery adapted by going rifled as well so they could stand off outside rifle range. All of which led towards the linear (line) tactics breaking up into much looser formations since concentrated targets were bad and you no longer needed tight formations to generate concentrated fire yourself. Which then generated issues with command and control since soldiers were getting out of the range of immediate shouted orders and officers running around (or gathered obviously around a regimental flag) made very good targets.)

362 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:00:32am

re: #361 Feline Fearless Leader

and black powder: limited the effectiveness of artillery shells.

363 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:01:22am

I see that old mental health diversion just keeps popping up, again and again.

364 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:02:08am

re: #363 Charles Johnson

I see that old mental health diversion just keeps popping up, again and again.

gunsmoke and mirrors

365 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:02:52am

Have a good day all!

366 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:02:59am

re: #363 Charles Johnson

Never let a crisis go to waste.

367 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:05:29am
368 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:05:49am

re: #358 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody on another blog just hit me with a copy-and-paste list of alleged incidents in which shooters were stopped by random armed citizens. I Googled the first item on the list and it looks like it's being spammed across gun nut sites. IOW, a bunch of urban legends.

Yep when you google it you head right to a lot of survivalist, militia, and luap nor paleolibertarian blogs & forums.

369 makeitstop  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:05:54am

'Morning, Lizards.

Here's an illustration of how close to home incidents like Friday's shooting can hit.

I played a show with my band on Saturday night, and was talking to my drummer. I knew he had a cousin that lives in CT, and I asked him how close he was to the shooting. It turns out that his cousin has two children in that school district - and a mutual friend of ours (another musician) also has a daughter in the same district.

Luckily for all of them, their kids are enrolled in the other elementary school in that district.

370 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:07:51am
371 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:09:36am

re: #367 Gus

I regret I have but one upding.

Really.

372 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:09:50am

re: #362 Sol Berdinowitz

and black powder: limited the effectiveness of artillery shells.

That too. Artillery revolutionized a bit with cordite being developed and then the use of steel (lighter barrel) and recoil systems (the French 75) for field artillery. World War I pushed things towards heavier guns, systems for delivering indirect fire better and quicker, field telephones, and things such as rolling barrages.

Same thing in a nutshell in naval technology in the same periods. Steam replacing sails, iron (and then steel) replacing wood, the weapon systems getting larger and larger, better propellents, and then the issues with communication and targeting once you need to spread the ships out. Plus a few revolutionary items coming into play such as the steam torpedo and eventually the submarine. With aircraft becoming the game changer between the two world wars.

373 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:10:00am

re: #371 researchok

I regret I have but one upding.

Really.

Yeah, that was a good article.

374 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:10:57am

Mdnight here, folks. Have a good afternoon and evening.

375 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:11:48am

re: #373 HappyWarrior

I've been lurking for a good part of the AM.

That was worth a response. I hope it's featured, for any number of reasons.

376 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:13:40am

Oh my God, it gets worse:

EXCLUSIVE: Nancy Lanza feared son, Adam, was ‘getting worse’; told friend ‘he was burning himself with a lighter’ and that she was 'losing him'

Adam, who killed Nancy Lanza, 54, before unleashing a nightmarish attack that killed 20 children and six others at the school Friday, was prone to hurting himself, the drinking buddy said.

“Nancy told me he was burning himself with a lighter. In the ankles or arms or something,” he recalled of a conversation they had about a year ago. “It was like he was trying to feel something.”

WHY would you keep guns ANYWHERE NEAR someone in that state! Why, why, WHY?

Screw the safe - they shouldn't have even been in the goddamned house. They should have been turned in to police, given to other relatives, whatever, anything to get them away from that kid. And if she was keeping them to protect herself from him...how exactly did that work out??

377 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:14:36am

re: #354 lostlakehiker

The doctor at University of Colorado who deemed Holmes a threat could have been heeded.

And what form would that heed take?

She spotted the danger and reported it to higher authority. Those facts do not support an argument that it is "impossible" for mental health professionals to have any effect on the course of events. Only that the system as currently constituted isn't getting the job done. Which, I think, was pretty much the point the president was getting at.

Why did you put 'impossible' in quotes as though I had said it?

And Loughner, too, was identified by professionals as being mentally off. Again, the system dropped the ball.

Again: What are the actual concrete things after this identification that would have helped?

378 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:15:02am

re: #375 researchok

I've been lurking for a good part of the AM.

That was worth a response. I hope it's featured, for any number of reasons.

H/T

379 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:15:13am

re: #363 Charles Johnson

May I ask what you'd like to see then?

I would like to point to Shiplord Kirel's sub-thread in the last thread as something poliltically possible. Difficult, but possible.

380 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:19:46am

re: #377 Obdicut

And what form would that heed take?

Why did you put 'impossible' in quotes as though I had said it?

Again: What are the actual concrete things after this identification that would have helped?

Indeed, the US lacks anything like the Mental Health Act to help them get help for persons who refuse it. People can see the "warning signs" all they like, but they lack the authority to do more than report it.

381 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:20:23am

re: #379 William Barnett-Lewis

May I ask what you'd like to see then?

I would like to point to Shiplord Kirel's sub-thread in the last thread as something poliltically possible. Difficult, but possible.

Sure. I thought I had already made it clear: much stricter gun control, including an outright ban on military style semi-auto rifles.

In the VAST majority of gun crimes mental health is simply not a factor. This is a red herring.

382 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:22:31am

re: #377 Obdicut

What really would have helped: if Adam Lanza didn't have easy access to weapons designed for mass killing.

383 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:23:15am

re: #382 Charles Johnson

What really would have helped: if Adam Lanza didn't have easy access to weapons designed for mass killing.

Yep.

384 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:25:22am

re: #376 Interesting Times

Oh my God, it gets worse:

EXCLUSIVE: Nancy Lanza feared son, Adam, was ‘getting worse’; told friend ‘he was burning himself with a lighter’ and that she was 'losing him'

WHY would you keep guns ANYWHERE NEAR someone in that state! Why, why, WHY?

Screw the safe - they shouldn't have even been in the goddamned house. They should have been turned in to police, given to other relatives, whatever, anything to get them away from that kid. And if she was keeping them to protect herself from him...how exactly did that work out??

The more I hear about the woman, the more convinced I become that she was an utter idiot.

385 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:25:52am

re: #382 Charles Johnson

I wish I could upding this more. The most annoying thing is the new meme that it's because of "violent video games".

386 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:27:46am

re: #376 Interesting Times

Actually, I doubt Nancy Lanza had the guns to protect herself from Adam. She was a Doomsday prepper. She had the guns because she believed in a paranoid right wing apocalypse fantasy.

387 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:28:28am

re: #385 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

I wish I could upding this more. The most annoying thing is the new meme that it's because of "violent video games".

I know. We'll blame video games, music, lack of God(do we even know Lanza was an Atheist, not like it means a damn thing) etc but we don't seem to want to discuss the fact that his mother knew he had problems but yet maintained a fairly large gun collection at their house. Just seems like wanting to sidestep the reality and look for a scapegoat.

388 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:28:57am

re: #385 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

I wish I could upding this more. The most annoying thing is the new meme that it's because of "violent video games".

New "meme" my ass. It's just another old excuse they dust off every in a while to distract from the real issues.

389 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:29:05am

re: #367 Gus

No, You Are Not Adam Lanza’s Mother and Yes, Your Kid’s Privacy Matters
December 16th, 2012 by Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg

Backlash is growing...

[Link: gawker.com...]

390 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:30:02am

prepped = prepper. (Stupid auto-correct.)

391 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:30:05am

re: #386 Charles Johnson

Actually, I doubt Nancy Lanza had the guns to protect herself from Adam. She was a Doomsday prepped. She had the guns because she believed in a paranoid right wing apocalypse fantasy.

And she probably funneled that garbage into Adam's head, twice as much when she yanked him out of school to be taught by her, without any outside influence. Kid dealing with a mental illness that already makes him socially isolated, being told that he has to be prepared for the world to come to crashing halt and everybody he knows and cares about turning into unruly savages bent on stealing everything he has.

392 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:30:10am

The other day I wrote a commenter here about some of the responses I was seeing.

He wisely waiting trill the following day to respond. He noted what was being said was more the result of shock than anything else.

Of course, he is right and he makes a very succinct point. Until the images of last of the really small caskets can be removed from our immediate minds eye (and we haven't yet seen any of them yet) we aren't firing on all cylinders.

In and of itself, emotion is not a virtue nor does it provide intellectual clarity.

The benefits of an emotional response is that down the road, when we can more clearly consider the impact of an event, we can take insights which might have otherwise been neglected and how to better understand and respond to the event.

393 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:31:01am

Oh brother. And his son is a priest? Gadzooks.

Granted, the more accurate phrases do not trip easily off the tongue. But what is lost in efficiency is gained in precision. Terms such as “same-sex attractions” and “homosexual inclinations” express what a person experiences without identifying the person with those attractions. They both acknowledge the attractions and preserve the freedom and dignity of the person. With that essential distinction made, parents can better oppose the attractions without rejecting the child. And as the child matures, he will not find his identity confined to his sexuality.

Further, opposition to homosexual attractions and actions makes sense only when it is rooted in the full truth of human sexuality. Gay school groups gain approval and support partly because heterosexual unchastity (contraception, masturbation, premarital sex, adultery, and all the rest) has compromised so many. Our culture’s deliberate separation of sex from procreation has destroyed our ability to articulate a coherent explanation of sexual ethics. Parents and educators have damaged the tools that would allow them to explain why homosexual activity is wrong.

394 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:31:56am

re: #389 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Backlash is growing...

[Link: gawker.com...]

It should be. What she did to her son was really fucked up.

395 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:33:19am

re: #393 Gus

Oh brother. And his son is a priest? Gadzooks.

[Embedded content]

His father's views as evidenced by what he's said and ruled on over the past quarter century aren't much different. So someone please remind me on why Antonin Scalia is a model U.S Supreme Court Justice. Give me Bill Brennan any day.

396 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:33:54am

re: #393 Gus

Hopefully, this isn't an apple-trees thing.

397 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:34:30am

re: #394 HappyWarrior

It should be. What she did to her son was really fucked up.

He's going to need a witness protection program level change of identity to have any chance at a normal life with this out on the web.

398 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:35:55am

re: #397 William Barnett-Lewis

He's going to need a witness protection program level change of identity to have any chance at a normal life with this out on the web.

Yeah. Damn, it's already tough enough being thirteen, even tougher if your mother, your own mother puts you on the spot for the whole world to read about.

399 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:36:38am

re: #396 researchok

Hopefully, this isn't an apple-trees thing.

Scalia is old fashioned. Right now at his age he's prepping himself for the promised land so he'll likely vote in a way so as not to go against God and keep himself out of Hell. That might sound strange but I've seen people do that before. Plus he's from Trenton.

400 Cinnabar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:40:10am

re: #376 Interesting Times

Oh my God, it gets worse:

EXCLUSIVE: Nancy Lanza feared son, Adam, was ‘getting worse’; told friend ‘he was burning himself with a lighter’ and that she was 'losing him'

Adam, who killed Nancy Lanza, 54, before unleashing a nightmarish attack that killed 20 children and six others at the school Friday, was prone to hurting himself, the drinking buddy said.

“Nancy told me he was burning himself with a lighter. In the ankles or arms or something,” he recalled of a conversation they had about a year ago. “It was like he was trying to feel something.”

WHY would you keep guns ANYWHERE NEAR someone in that state! Why, why, WHY?

Screw the safe - they shouldn't have even been in the goddamned house. They should have been turned in to police, given to other relatives, whatever, anything to get them away from that kid. And if she was keeping them to protect herself from him...how exactly did that work out??

This is most definitely not my area of expertise, but isn't it usually the case that people who do that kind of self-mutilation don't harm others?

401 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:40:17am

Reports are coming in that NBC's Richard Engel and his producer are missing in Syria.

402 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:42:29am

re: #401 Gus

Reports are coming in that NBC's Richard Engel and his producer are missing in Syria.

Man, that's never good.

403 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:42:33am
404 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:43:16am

re: #401 Gus

Reports are coming in that NBC's Richard Engel and his producer are missing in Syria.

If they had been properly armed..........oh forget it.

405 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:43:24am

Pistol grip. Muzzle flash suppressor. That's an assault weapon which needs to be banned immediately.

406 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:45:02am

re: #403 Gus

Wasn't that actually his mother's assault rifle?

407 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:45:47am

re: #403 Gus

'It's the culture, stupid'- Exhibit A

408 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:46:09am

re: #403 Gus

[Embedded content]

BEWARE MY SELF-RELOADING MATTE BLACK PENIS EXTENSION!

409 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:46:14am

Thank heavens someone has found the root of all these problems.

Huckabee Blames ‘Tax-Funded Abortion Pills’ For Newtown Massacre

410 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:46:31am

re: #406 Feline Fearless Leader

Wasn't that actually his mother's assault rifle?

Gun control isn't only about Newtown.

411 iossarian  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:46:37am

Gun nuts == small-dicked dorks.

412 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:46:39am

re: #409 Four More Tears

Thank heavens someone has found the root of all these problems.

Huckabee Blames ‘Tax-Funded Abortion Pills’ For Newtown Massacre

*headdesk*

413 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:47:45am

Meanwhile, the right continues furiously pushing the ludicrous idea that we just need MOAR GUNZ EVEYWHERE!

414 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:47:49am

re: #410 Gus

Gun control isn't only about Newtown.

True. "Cult of the Gun" and all that. Plus the apparent effectiveness of advertising pandering to the various macho and manly stereotypes.

415 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:48:42am

re: #400 Cinnabar

This is most definitely not my area of expertise, but isn't it usually the case that people who do that kind of self-mutilation don't harm others?

Pretty much yes. It is usually seen as a maladaptive coping mechanism for a wide variety of issues but especially with depression and anxiety, and is seen in almost half of suicides.

416 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:49:05am

re: #409 Four More Tears

Thank heavens someone has found the root of all these problems.

Huckabee Blames ‘Tax-Funded Abortion Pills’ For Newtown Massacre

Because...if people had been having less abortions....there would be more children for the nut to shoot at...but hey, at least there will be plenty of replacements?

Or is that another screed about his "God" being a spiteful, vindictive douchebag because that's what Huckabee wants him to be?

417 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:49:43am

re: #413 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, the right continues furiously pushing the ludicrous idea that we just need MOAR GUNZ EVEYWHERE!

[Embedded content]

What a lunatic sees is a building filled with a whole lot of people in close proximity. Otherwise known as a "target-rich environment."

418 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:50:02am

re: #416 Ghost of Tom Joad

Because...if people had been having less abortions....there would be more children for the nut to shoot at...but hey, at least there will be plenty of replacements?

Or is that another screed about his "God" being a spiteful, vindictive douchebag because that's what Huckabee wants him to be?

Yes.

419 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:50:24am


Because lunatics are renowned for risk calculation.

420 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:50:34am

re: #413 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, the right continues furiously pushing the ludicrous idea that we just need MOAR GUNZ EVEYWHERE!

[Embedded content]

That Fort Hood shooter would've thought twice if there were guns....wait, it's a military fort that has weapons? HOLY SHIT (((mad shuffling of papers))) mental illness and video games!!!

421 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:50:57am

re: #400 Cinnabar

This is most definitely not my area of expertise, but isn't it usually the case that people who do that kind of self-mutilation don't harm others?

Some do, some do not. The ones who do not (directly) harm others tend to high rates of suicide. The self-mutilation says harm is being considered.

422 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:51:24am

Yeah! We can only be safe if everyone is armed to the teeth - especially in kindergarten! Genius!

423 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:51:35am

re: #413 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, the right continues furiously pushing the ludicrous idea that we just need MOAR GUNZ EVEYWHERE!

[Embedded content]

Yeah because the problem is the lack of guns. Really Nolte shut the fuck up and listen to what you said and how stupid it is.

424 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:51:53am
425 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:52:01am

re: #422 Charles Johnson

Yeah! We can only be safe if everyone is armed to the teeth - especially in kindergarten! Genius!

But how can children be safe if one of the teachers goes on a rampage...I've got it, we'll arm the kids! Brilliant!

426 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:53:55am

re: #422 Charles Johnson

Yeah! We can only be safe if everyone is armed to the teeth - especially in kindergarten! Genius!

Plus, as we all know, having met many a kindergarten teachers we all know how they're all so much into guns.

//

427 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:54:02am

re: #425 Targetpractice

But how can children be safe if one of the teachers goes on a rampage...I've got it, we'll arm the kids! Brilliant!

Math? Science? English?

Pffft.

Today, it's Glock training in the playground. Children, don't forget your kevlar.

428 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:54:04am

Say it again:

Any maniac with a gun can wreak havoc with little or no training.
To defend yourself with a gun, you need a fair amount of training and good nerves.
To defend others - especially in a crowded public place - you need extensive training, nerves of steel and a sound sense orf judgement.
Are we going to make that part of the skills set for teachers and school administrators?

The NRA argument is that "guns don't kill, people do", but then they go on to assume that the very presence of guns somewhere is going to spread some sort of magic aura of protection about everyone.

429 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:54:08am

re: #409 Four More Tears

Thank heavens someone has found the root of all these problems.

Huckabee Blames ‘Tax-Funded Abortion Pills’ For Newtown Massacre

The line between Huckabee and Fisher continues to shrink.

430 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:54:45am

re: #429 Kronocide

The line between Huckabee and Fisher continues to shrink.

Just wait until Bryan Fischer gets up to jam with Ted Nugent.

431 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:55:12am

re: #429 Kronocide

The line between Huckabee and Fisher continues to shrink.

Huck will be all the rage during the 2016 primaries.

432 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:55:47am

re: #426 Gus

CCP to be part of kindergarten teacher certification.

Or instead of teacher certification.

433 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:55:54am

Let's arm everyone. So we can go from having a 1/3 of the world's guns to 2/3's. Seriously. The solution isn't more guns. Let's get fucking real.

434 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:57:19am

re: #431 Four More Tears

Huck will be all the rage during the 2016 primaries.

Good. Hope he wins. The primary.

435 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:57:40am

So we're arming ourselves up to the teeth to protect ourselves from what? Ourselves. That's exactly what our Founding Fathers wanted to protect against... each other.

Seems legit Patriots. We are America, land of the free.

436 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:57:42am

Every gun registered. Every owner licensed. Licenses subject to renewal, and subject to temporary withdrawal (along with weapons) on various conditions like divorce, job loss, mental stress, ...

437 gwangung  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:57:44am

re: #432 researchok

CCP to be part of kindergarten teacher certification.

Or instead of teacher certificatoin.

If so, mandatory six figure salary.

Those kind of skills don't grow on trees, you know.

438 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 8:58:39am

re: #429 Kronocide

The line between Huckabee and Fisher continues to shrink.

What the fuck is that crazy sob babbling about?

439 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:00:13am

re: #437 gwangung

If so, mandatory six figure salary.

Those kind of skills don't grow on trees, you know.

Sure they do. Any moron can teach a classroom of children. Isn't that why we busted up the unions for?

//

440 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:00:38am

re: #429 Kronocide

The line between Huckabee and Fisher continues to shrink.

There's a line between Fischer and Huckabee?

441 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:01:05am

Besides blaming mental health, blaming the media is another red herring. In some cases how we handle these events could be looked at, just like mental health. But the media causes these events?

Yep. The librul media. And mental health. And people. But not guns, they don't kill people.

442 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:01:33am

re: #440 Lidane

Fischer is highly enriched crazy. Huckabee is mid enriched crazy.

For comparison purposes, Westboro is weapons grade crazy

443 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:01:42am

re: #438 HappyWarrior

What the fuck is that crazy sob babbling about?

What the fuck is that crazy SOB not babbling about? LOL

444 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:02:32am

re: #442 lawhawk

Fischer is highly enriched crazy. Huckabee is mid enriched crazy.

For comparison purposes, Westboro is weapons grade crazy

Fischer is hydrogen while Huckabee is an atom.

445 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:02:36am

re: #419 jaunte

Because lunatics are renowned for risk calculation.

They're also known for rational behavior and calm, logical thought processes.

God these people scare me. On what fucking planet does more guns = less gun violence make sense?

446 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:02:43am

re: #442 lawhawk

Fischer is highly enriched crazy. Huckabee is mid enriched crazy.

For comparison purposes, Westboro is weapons grade crazy

Minor quibble: all the same crazy, different delivery systems.

Huckabee is retail grade packaging.

447 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:03:59am

Adam Lanza’s mother recieved $289,800 in alimony this year

Not exactly a 'struggling' single mother.

And this ought to put to rest the 'access to mental health care' issue.

448 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:04:06am

re: #445 Lidane

They're also known for rational behavior and calm, logical thought processes.

God these people scare me. On what fucking planet does more guns = less gun violence make sense?

MAD. When everybody's armed, nobody will shoot for fear that everybody around them will blow their ass away.

Plus, the Red Dawn wannabes like to imagine that more guns means the government's less liable to turn on them.

449 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:04:23am

re: #442 lawhawk

Fischer is highly enriched crazy. Huckabee is mid enriched crazy.

For comparison purposes, Westboro is weapons grade crazy

I don't think Westboro gives a shit if Anon releases their personal info. Then what, somebody will picket their homes?

If somebody vandalizes Westboro property, will they sue the ever-loving shit out of Anon?

450 KingKenrod  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:04:45am

re: #446 Kronocide

Minor quibble: all the same crazy, different delivery systems.

Huckabee is retail grade packaging.

451 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:05:00am

re: #420 Ghost of Tom Joad

That Fort Hood shooter would've thought twice if there were guns....!

Heh.

That's what kills me. The whole MOAR GUNZ = LESS VIOLENCE argument conveniently ignores the Ft. Hood shooter. He was on a military base surrounded by people who were similarly armed and trained. It still didn't stop him.

452 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:06:24am

re: #445 Lidane

They're also known for rational behavior and calm, logical thought processes.

God these people scare me. On what fucking planet does more guns = less gun violence make sense?

Go read the people trying to use Israel and Switzerland as their basis. They will tell you it isn't the laws there that keep control, that keeps gun numbers and violence down. It is their culture, driven by the fact they have near universal military service.

Two Heinlein memes in one argument.

453 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:06:26am

re: #448 Targetpractice

MAD. When everybody's armed, nobody will shoot for fear that everybody around them will blow their ass away.

In their mind, the government has just as much rightful power over the guy down the street's ability to possess a firearm as the United States had over the Soviet Union's possession of nukes in 1949.

Conditional on this ludicrous point of comparison, their thought process is vaguely rational. But their point of comparison is, again, ludicrous. MAD isn't really an applicable paradigm here.

454 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:06:54am

The obvious thing here? Adam Lanza had access to mental health care.

455 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:06:58am

re: #445 Lidane

They're also known for rational behavior and calm, logical thought processes.

God these people scare me. On what fucking planet does more guns = less gun violence make sense?

Planet NRAALEC.

456 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:07:12am

re: #448 Targetpractice

MAD. When everybody's armed, nobody will shoot for fear that everybody around them will blow their ass away.

A common truism in rightwingistan, espoused by certain talk show hosts:

An armed society is a polite society

Always said with a smug assurance that MAD is the prevailing factor that ensures when everybody has guns nobody will be victimized.

Because that worked in the Wild West and everywhere else there's a proliferation of weapons.

457 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:07:47am

re: #447 researchok

Adam Lanza’s mother recieved $289,800 in alimony this year

Not exactly a 'struggling' single mother.

And this ought to put to rest the 'access to mental health care' issue.

So let's see. How many hours of therapy can that buy?

458 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:07:53am

re: #435 Kronocide

So we're arming ourselves up to the teeth to protect ourselves from what? Ourselves.

I have the feeling that (in spite of the fact that ALL of the recent mass shootings have been perpetrated by white males) a sizable percentage of the most serious gun nuts mostly arm themselves against the threat of marauding illegal immigrants. This guy was clearly a troll, but that doesn't mean he wasn't speaking for a lot of people!

459 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:08:10am

re: #454 Gus

The obvious thing here? Adam Lanza had access to mental health care.

If his mother would have admitted he had a problem and sought help for him. But from the sounds of it, she was one of those nimrods who thinks that mental illness is a conspiracy between the government and shrinks.

460 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:08:15am

re: #386 Charles Johnson

Actually, I doubt Nancy Lanza had the guns to protect herself from Adam. She was a Doomsday prepper. She had the guns because she believed in a paranoid right wing apocalypse fantasy.

Yes, I knew that. Just engaging in some "charitable" speculation as to why she still kept the guns around despite increasing evidence her son was degenerating into a psycho.

re: #400 Cinnabar

This is most definitely not my area of expertise, but isn't it usually the case that people who do that kind of self-mutilation don't harm others?

Still all the more reason to keep guns away from them, if only to prevent successful suicide attempts. And more concerning than the self-mutilation per sae was the claim he "did it so he could feel something." That kind of deadened emotional state tends to be a precursor for violent behavior, or, at the very least, a lack of ability to have empathy.

461 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:09:04am

re: #457 Gus

So let's see. How many hours of therapy can that buy?

How many assault weapons can that buy?

462 gwangung  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:09:09am

re: #456 Kronocide

A common truism in rightwingistan, espoused by certain talk show hosts:

An armed society is a polite society

Always said with a smug assurance that MAD is the prevailing factor that ensures when everybody has guns nobody will be victimized.

And it always, always, ALWAYS assumed that all individuals are rational and don't have a death wish.

463 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:09:18am

re: #457 Gus

A lifetime of therapy and a well funded retirement plan for the therapist.

464 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:09:40am

re: #451 Lidane

Heh.

That's what kills me. The whole MOAR GUNZ = LESS VIOLENCE argument conveniently ignores the Ft. Hood shooter. He was on a military base surrounded by people who were similarly armed and trained. It still didn't stop him.

For a lot of these guys, it's also about going down in a blaze of glory. It's not like they're looking to pick off a few people and then slink off into the woods so they can do it again. Their death is inevitable, so having people armed isn't going to deter them.

465 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:10:01am

re: #459 Targetpractice

If his mother would have admitted he had a problem and sought help for him. But from the sounds of it, she was one of those nimrods who thinks that mental illness is a conspiracy between the government and shrinks.

If your solution to my-kid-can't-cope-in-school is to homeschool him, then this presupposes that you're willing to insulate him from the outside world his entire life, not just until 18.

When you don't do that, you might expect the transition to the real world to go even less smoothly than it previously would have. School's not just about books. I'd dare say it's not even mostly about books.

466 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:10:41am

re: #451 Lidane

Heh.

That's what kills me. The whole MOAR GUNZ = LESS VIOLENCE argument conveniently ignores the Ft. Hood shooter. He was on a military base surrounded by people who were similarly armed and trained. It still didn't stop him.

Valid counter-argument: they were not similarly armed. Soldiers are not armed on US bases except when duty assignment requires it.

467 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:10:55am

re: #456 Kronocide

A common truism in rightwingistan, espoused by certain talk show hosts:

An armed society is a polite society

Always said with a smug assurance that MAD is the prevailing factor that ensures when everybody has guns nobody will be victimized.

Because that worked in the Wild West and everywhere else there's a proliferation of weapons.

Growing up in part around AK-packing Central Asia tribesmen, the actual formulation is:

An armed society is a polite society, and occasionally impoliteness leads to acts of grisly violence followed by the chance of weeks of retaliatory violence.

468 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:11:01am

re: #54 dragonath

I don't go for censorship, but here's a distressing fact:

VIDEO GAMES BOOST HEAD SHOT ACCURACY

What a wonderful culture.

I'll grant cultural problems, but that assertion is 100% horse shit. I won't get my wish, but I wish that we could discuss guns and what to do about them from a position where all sides are educated and in touch with reality. I saw some story in a big-name publication yesterday asserting that the Glock and Sig Sauer pistols the shooter was carrying "fire up to five rounds per second". Now, that's true if you are a highly-practiced shooter, but that's a property of the shooter, not of the gun.

There are a lot of predictable aspects of reporting when it comes to anything gun-related that really irk me.

Guns (that aren't damaged or stupidly modified in some way) don't "just go off". It doesn't happen.

It's really really really really hard to hit small, moving targets at anything other than very close range. If you've ever read about a (justified) police shooting and wondered, "why didn't they just shoot him in the leg", that means you have mistaken beliefs about the world that most likely come from movies and TV shows.

Pointing a cursor at something in a video game translates exactly zero percent into real-world shooting ability. Shooting accurately is hard. You can no more learn to shoot accurately from playing video games than you can learn to hit holes-in-one by watching Tiger Woods on TV.

Guns aren't magic talismans. They don't have minds of their own. They aren't going to make someone do something they weren't already going to do in the first place.

There are many other things, too, but why bother?

A lot of anti-gun people seem to be unwilling to hear that guns are actually really mundane and ordinary, as though conceding that somehow makes them less deadly, and less of a problem. News flash: all these massacres happened even though the guns involved don't have supernatural properties. I don't understand why people wouldn't rather argue from a position of informed, literate competence rather than one of near-superstitious fearmongering. Being ill-informed and repeating misinformation doesn't doesn't help you make a case.

469 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:11:08am

re: #462 gwangung

And it always, always, ALWAYS assumed that all individuals are rational and don't have a death wish.

It's part of the reason why they want to hint so much on mental illness, because it's something they can declare is "somebody else's problem." But if you suggest that everybody who wants to own a gun get checked out by a shrink, the screaming starts that shrinks think everything is an illness and most are anti-gun liberals who'll come up with any excuse to keep "law-abiding citizens" from owning a gun.

470 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:13:11am

re: #468 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

A+, would upding again. One wonders why all of our soldiers and police recruits need such extensive firearms training if video games made a lick of difference.

471 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:13:16am

re: #466 kirkspencer

Valid counter-argument: they were not similarly armed. Soldiers are not armed on US bases except when duty assignment requires it.

He was still on a military base surrounded by others who were trained military personnel. MP's and security would have been armed, and the rest would have had some training in disarming/subduing an armed assailant. None of it mattered. He still went on a rampage.

I think Ft. Hood puts the lie to the idea that greater access to weapons would mean less chance of violence.

472 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:14:13am

re: #466 kirkspencer

Valid counter-argument: they were not similarly armed. Soldiers are not armed on US bases except when duty assignment requires it.

It was certainly not a "gun-free zone"...

473 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:14:38am

re: #468 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Hmm, but isn't certain segments of our media and culture built around being ill-informed and repeating misinformation? Seems to be very profitable.
///

474 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:14:53am
"One in three Americans knows someone who has been shot. As long as a candid discussion of guns is impossible, unfettered debate about the causes of violence is unimaginable. Gun-control advocates say the answer to gun violence is fewer guns. Gun-rights advocates say that the answer is more guns: things would have gone better, they suggest, if the faculty at Columbine, Virginia Tech, and Chardon High School had been armed. That is the logic of the concealed-carry movement; that is how armed citizens have come to be patrolling the streets. That is not how civilians live. When carrying a concealed weapon for self-defense is understood not as a failure of civil society, to be mourned, but as an act of citizenship, to be vaunted, there is little civilian life left."

Read more: [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Some informative recent history about the NRA's internal changes in this article.

475 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:15:01am

re: #470 erik_t

A+, would upding again. One wonders why all of our soldiers and police recruits need such extensive firearms training if video games made a lick of difference.

If video games are a form of training, then I am ready to survive in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland.

476 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:16:07am

re: #468 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Pointing a cursor at something in a video game translates exactly zero percent into real-world shooting ability. Shooting accurately is hard. You can no more learn to shoot accurately from playing video games than you can learn to hit holes-in-one by watching Tiger Woods on TV.

Quoted because it needs repeating.

477 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:16:36am

re: #475 Targetpractice

If video games are a form of training, then I am ready to survive in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland.

Pffft. I know how to travel through time.

478 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:16:59am

re: #470 erik_t

A+, would upding again. One wonders why all of our soldiers and police recruits need such extensive firearms training if video games made a lick of difference.

Though there are some simulators that are very video game like and are used. But beyond a certain point they are nothing like the common games. (And I think the vehicle and aircraft simulators are more likely since limited sight lines are much more common as compared to the all-round views and inputs an infantryman would be dealing with.)

479 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:18:26am

re: #475 Targetpractice

If video games are a form of training, then I am ready to survive in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland.

Shit, I should be a highly-paid CIA operative or something. If you're using an actual 'gun' to play the game (last one of those I ever used was in Duck Hunt for the Nintendo), then yeah, maybe it helps a bit, but that study is just another red herring meant to distract from other issues.

480 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:20:49am

re: #478 Feline Fearless Leader

Though there are some simulators that are very video game like and are used. But beyond a certain point they are nothing like the common games. (And I think the vehicle and aircraft simulators are more likely since limited sight lines are much more common as compared to the all-round views and inputs an infantryman would be dealing with.)

Unsurprisingly, the most effective training one might get on a computer game is the one in which the real-world user is already insulated from the outside world by machinery and technology. Flight simulators are halfway there but for the need to use kinesthetic feeling and a heck of a flexible neck.

Train simulators are probably the current state of the art.

481 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:22:40am

re: #480 erik_t

Unsurprisingly, the most effective training one might get on a computer game is the one in which the real-world user is already insulated from the outside world by machinery and technology. Flight simulators are halfway there but for the need to use kinesthetic feeling and a heck of a flexible neck.

Train simulators are probably the current state of the art.

Drone operator.

482 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:25:41am

re: #480 erik_t

Unsurprisingly, the most effective training one might get on a computer game is the one in which the real-world user is already insulated from the outside world by machinery and technology. Flight simulators are halfway there but for the need to use kinesthetic feeling and a heck of a flexible neck.

Train simulators are probably the current state of the art.

Some arcade-level games are to the point of supplying that sort of feedback. Driving "pods" where the wheel and such provide resistance in turns, the whole seat can shake, etc. (The Robotech "pods" that I saw in Dave&Busters a ways back were essentially fully enclosed systems where you were isolated, only getting screen input and thus could get shaken and receive other such feedback. But that was also in essence a limited-view vehicle cockpit set-up along the lines of a good flight simulator.)

483 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:26:57am

re: #475 Targetpractice

If video games are a form of training, then I am ready to survive in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland.

I am fully trained to fly a vertibird.

484 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:27:30am

MAD seems to be the prevalent theory behind citizens being armed and the mindset behind an armed society is a polite society.

Works well in the real world with nuclear weapons, right? Therefore Iran and North Korea should have them, maybe even Syria and Venezuela.

Oh snap.

485 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:27:50am

re: #483 Varek Raith

I am fully trained to fly a vertibird.

Just so long as you don't crash it outside of Klamath.

486 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:28:58am

re: #484 Kronocide

MAD seems to be the prevalent theory behind citizens being armed and the mindset behind an armed society is a polite society.

Works well in the real world with nuclear weapons, right? Therefore Iran and North Korea should have them, maybe even Syria and Venezuela.

Why, it's almost as if some actors have demonstrated that they are mentally, emotionally or ethically unfit to be granted possession.

Funny, that.

487 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:29:08am

re: #479 Ghost of Tom Joad

Shit, I should be a highly-paid CIA operative or something. If you're using an actual 'gun' to play the game (last one of those I ever used was in Duck Hunt for the Nintendo), then yeah, maybe it helps a bit, but that study is just another red herring meant to distract from other issues.

Laser tag comes in around that level. Did a few rounds of that back in the mid-90s down in Texas with a group that included a few ex-Marines. Obviously a very target rich and goofy environment, but they put up impressive shot/kill ratios - and also compared to everyone else took a lot fewer shots. Then again, a few of us took on the role of exerting suppressive fire to help the cause and had real crappy ratios since we to a large extent were not worrying about aiming as compared to making particular corridors in the obstacle field hazardous to use.

488 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:29:53am

It's odd that Ms. Lanza, apparently a survivalist nut, got full custody of her son. I wonder if her ex-husband challenged this at all. (Of course, he was already 17, so one year of parenting wouldn't have made a big difference.)

Any gun owner who lets a mentally disturbed individual have access to her guns extremely irresponsible. I hope any reactionary legislation legislation passed in the wake of this crime addresses the issue of gun owners keeping their weapons secure.

489 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:30:58am

[Link: www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...]

The mother of Sandy Hook gunman Adam Lanza who slaughtered 20 US schoolchildren and seven adults was a gun-hoarding survivalist who was stockpiling weapons in preparation for an economic collapse, it has emerged.

Nancy Lanza was shot four times in the head before her son Adam gunned down young pupils and teachers at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut.

490 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:31:46am

re: #489 ReamWorks SKG

[Link: www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...]

The mother of Sandy Hook gunman Adam Lanza who slaughtered 20 US schoolchildren and seven adults was a gun-hoarding survivalist who was stockpiling weapons in preparation for an economic collapse, it has emerged.

Nancy Lanza was shot four times in the head before her son Adam gunned down young pupils and teachers at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut.

If only she had weapons handy, should could have defended...ahh fuck it, nevermind.

491 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:31:51am

re: #451 Lidane

Heh.

That's what kills me. The whole MOAR GUNZ = LESS VIOLENCE argument conveniently ignores the Ft. Hood shooter. He was on a military base surrounded by people who were similarly armed and trained. It still didn't stop him.

Well, no actually. Their weapons - both military and civilian - were locked up in the arms room for each unit. Unless you are in the bush doing training or at the range, you don't have any weapons on you. Period. My understanding of this case is that he snuck his weapon on post knowing that only the Military Police would be armed there and then.

492 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:32:02am

re: #484 Kronocide

"An armed Middle East is a polite Middle East."

493 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:34:34am

re: #492 jaunte

"An armed Middle East is a polite Middle East."

It would certainly deter those suicide bombers if they knew everyone was armed...

494 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:34:57am

re: #492 jaunte

"An armed Middle East is a polite Middle East."

OH.MEGA.SNAP

495 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:36:27am
496 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:37:28am

re: #495 Gus

[Embedded content]

Shit.
Shit.
Shit.

497 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:38:23am

If anyone would like a look at a organization far less political than the NRA these people are worth learning a little about. As legislation passes in various places these organization will be swiftly changing their classes to keep people on the right side of the law to and from the range.

[Link: www.nssf.org...]

[Link: www.nssf.org...]

Free Gun Safety Kits

498 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:44:16am

Went in for a follow up appointment over my liver problems today.

In the 3 weeks since my last visit, I've lost 8 lbs.

499 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:45:06am

re: #498 Kragar

Went in for a follow up appointment over my liver problems today.

In the 3 weeks since my last visit, I've lost 8 lbs.

Hope you feel better man.

500 blueraven  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:45:14am

re: #497 Political Atheist

If anyone would like a look at a organization far less political than the NRA these people are worth learning a little about. As legislation passes in various places these organization will be swiftly changing their classes to keep people on the right side of the law to and from the range.

[Link: www.nssf.org...]

[Link: www.nssf.org...]

Free Gun Safety Kits

Isn't this the same organization that recently objected to any restrictions on illegal Target Practice ranges in Newtown?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

501 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:45:23am

re: #498 Kragar

Went in for a follow up appointment over my liver problems today.

In the 3 weeks since my last visit, I've lost 8 lbs.

Anything serious?

502 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:45:26am

re: #498 Kragar

Went in for a follow up appointment over my liver problems today.

In the 3 weeks since my last visit, I've lost 8 lbs.

You on a diet?

503 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:46:20am

Tea Party Group Blames Connecticut Shooting On Teachers, Unions, And Sex

A piece posted to the Tea Party Nation website yesterday, and sent to the group’s members in an email from TPN head Judson Phillips, blamed the school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut on teachers, unions, bureaucracy, and the presence of sex in popular culture. In a lengthy screed that’s essentially a round-up of every major cultural and policy grievance the American right holds with the rest of the country, author Timothy Birdnow cited concerns about the mental health of shooter Adam Lanza, the lack of spanking in schools, and the new movie “Django Unchained” — among other things — as evidence that American popular culture “has made murder, rape, mayhem, hatred, and violence ‘cool.’”

He then went on to recommend a number of interesting solutions, including a lamentation that George Zimmerman was not guarding Sandy Hook Elementary School:

504 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:46:48am

re: #498 Kragar

Went in for a follow up appointment over my liver problems today.

In the 3 weeks since my last visit, I've lost 8 lbs.

Is that a good 8 lbs. or a bad 8 lbs.?

505 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:46:59am

I just got a "Holiday bonus" from the agency I work for.

A $50 Target gift card.

Why can't they give $50 Target gift cards to CEO's instead of looting the workers' pension funds?

506 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:47:17am

re: #497 Political Atheist

If anyone would like a look at a organization far less political than the NRA these people are worth learning a little about. As legislation passes in various places these organization will be swiftly changing their classes to keep people on the right side of the law to and from the range.

[Link: www.nssf.org...]

[Link: www.nssf.org...]

Free Gun Safety Kits

Yep, and as an added bonus, the far right hates them because they aren't stark raving nuts.

I'm also going to plug this group again:
The Liberal Gun Club

507 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:47:41am

re: #505 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Not enough 'zeros' on the card

508 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:48:03am

re: #501 Varek Raith

Anything serious?

re: #502 Gus

You on a diet?

Fatty tissue in the liver. So I've had to readjust my eating habits (no more skipping breakfast, eating a late lunch and then having dinner), more fruits and whole grains and completely cut out soft drinks.

509 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:48:46am

re: #506 William Barnett-Lewis

NSSF is headquartered in Newtown CT.

510 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:49:09am

re: #508 Kragar

No more Foie Kragar? Damn, I'll have to tell the SO to replan Christmas dinner...

(feel better)

511 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:49:10am

re: #503 Kragar

Tea Party Group Blames Connecticut Shooting On Teachers, Unions, And Sex

Oh fuck you Judson Phillips. Fuck you. Yeah teachers and teachers unions are why Lanza killed a bunch of kids and their teachers. Get fucking real asshole and get your head out of your ass for once. Fucking right wing pricks will blame anything but their precious guns in the wake of tragedies like this. So fucking typical.

512 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:50:00am
513 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:50:35am

re: #503 Kragar

Tea Party Group Blames Connecticut Shooting On Teachers, Unions, And Sex

"Obama's politicizing this tragedy! That's our job!"

514 Big Steve  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:50:38am

After a long weekend of thinking about it, I plan to get rid of the one weapon in my house a 9mm Sig Sauer P22. It was bought years ago and I literally haven't fired it in four years. I don't want to sell it because that still leaves it active in the world. So I shall remove the firing pin and smash it with a hammer and then saw the gun in half and deliver it to the local police who have a way of selling for scrap. I have long thought we needed better gun control laws but decided it was time to walk the talk. BTW that pistol cost me $900 but I just cannot get the image of the Sandy Hook first graders out of my mind.

515 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:50:43am

re: #508 Kragar

re: #502 Gus

Fatty tissue in the liver. So I've had to readjust my eating habits (no more skipping breakfast, eating a late lunch and then having dinner), more fruits and whole grains and completely cut out soft drinks.

Ah, good. Not being on a diet and losing weight wouldn't be good.

516 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:51:28am

re: #513 Targetpractice

"Obama's politicizing this tragedy! That's our job!"

Give the governor a haruph.

517 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:51:42am

re: #472 Sol Berdinowitz

It was certainly not a "gun-free zone"...

Yes, actually, it was. When only the police (MPs) are allowed to bear arms and everyone else is specifically prohibited from doing so, it is a "gun free zone."

re: #471 Lidane

He was still on a military base surrounded by others who were trained military personnel. MP's and security would have been armed, and the rest would have had some training in disarming/subduing an armed assailant. None of it mattered. He still went on a rampage.

I think Ft. Hood puts the lie to the idea that greater access to weapons would mean less chance of violence.

Sadly, it appears you haven't actually been in the military so you've got some mistaken assumptions about bases and soldiers. The advantage the soldiers had was they were a little less likely to panic from the gunfire.

But they were no more effective at tackling the shooter than the civilians who tackled Gifford's shooter. Which is to say they did well, but it was not due to their training.

518 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:52:04am
519 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:52:37am

re: #505 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I just got a "Holiday bonus" from the agency I work for.

A $50 Target gift card.

Why can't they give $50 Target gift cards to CEO's instead of looting the workers' pension funds?

I loved hearing the news we weren't getting bonuses this year after the news came out a senior exec got a million dollar bonus before leaving the company over a business scandal.

520 Dr. Matt  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:52:38am

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

521 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:52:46am

re: #518 Varek Raith

Image: original.jpg

He's been missing since Thursday, and it's only now coming to light?

522 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:10am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

Obama?

523 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:20am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

Islam?

524 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:28am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

ACORN!!!

525 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:38am

re: #514 Big Steve

After a long weekend of thinking about it, I plan to get rid of the one weapon in my house a 9mm Sig Sauer P22. It was bought years ago and I literally haven't fired it in four years. I don't want to sell it because that still leaves it active in the world. So I shall remove the firing pin and smash it with a hammer and then saw the gun in half and deliver it to the local police who have a way of selling for scrap. I have long thought we needed better gun control laws but decided it was time to walk the talk. BTW that pistol cost me $900 but I just cannot get the image of the Sandy Hook first graders out of my mind.

Sell it responsibly and give the money to charity. Destroying it creates another sales niche for the manufacturers.

526 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:38am

re: #521 Targetpractice

He's been missing since Thursday, and it's only now coming to light?

Seems NBC enforced a blackout and then foreign news services started reporting it anyway.

527 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:50am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

Benghazi!

528 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:53:52am

re: #518 Varek Raith

Image: original.jpg

Engel would have to be in contact regardless. Not a good sign.

529 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:54:01am

re: #526 Varek Raith

Seems NBC enforced a blackout and then foreign news services started reporting it anyway.

MORONS!

530 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:54:14am

I got interrupted before I sent the previous reply - logged back on and it autosent. Sorry that it makes this seem an almost psychotic break of sorts.

I got into a little argument about the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people." I wish I'd stayed quiet, as the gentleman near me had a much more effective statement, one I'm adding to my repertoire.

Yes, people kill people. But what do they mostly use to intentionally do it?

531 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:54:21am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

The gheys!

532 Dr. Matt  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:54:59am

re: #524 Sol Berdinowitz

ACORN!!!

re: #523 Kragar

Islam?

re: #522 Targetpractice

Obama?

re: #531 Ghost of Tom Joad

The gheys!

Crap. This list may turn into a thesis.....

533 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:55:14am

The totally free anything goes unregulated gun market envisioned by wingnuts does exist btw. Here's a video I posted a few years back that's since been updated by the creator:

534 Dr. Matt  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:55:57am

oooops. Messed up the HTML....

535 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:56:02am

re: #522 Targetpractice

Obama?

That is more than covered:

[Link: www.dodgeglobe.com...]

536 Big Steve  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:56:16am

re: #525 Decatur Deb

Considered that but the issue with me is not me not having a gun.....it was just about less guns. I know it is just a drop of water in an ocean but it is the only drop I can control.

537 blueraven  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:56:23am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

gun hating libruls!

538 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:57:14am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

Not enough guns!

539 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:57:15am

re: #535 bratwurst

That is more than covered:

[Link: www.dodgeglobe.com...]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

540 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:57:37am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Atheists!

541 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:57:45am

Dobson: Connecticut Shooting was God Allowing 'Judgment to Fall Upon Us' for Turning Our Back on Him

Operation Save America Calls Sandy Hook Interfaith Memorial Service an 'Affront to Almighty God'

Looking at the statements from the Right about how God let this happen, and what we need to do to win back his grace, I can see only one possible response to God's message.

We do not negotiate with Terrorists.

542 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:57:45am

re: #535 bratwurst

That is more than covered:

[Link: www.dodgeglobe.com...]

I just lost some of my IQ reading that. Now time to dig into my library and gain some of it it back. Seriously, Obama? Blaming Obama for Lanza's actions is about as stupid and craven as you can get.

543 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:58:32am

re: #535 bratwurst

That is more than covered:

[Link: www.dodgeglobe.com...]

One comment there:

This is among the dumbest things I have ever read in my life.

544 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:58:37am

re: #541 Kragar

Dobson: Connecticut Shooting was God Allowing 'Judgment to Fall Upon Us' for Turning Our Back on Him

Operation Save America Calls Sandy Hook Interfaith Memorial Service an 'Affront to Almighty God'

Looking at the statements from the Right about how God let this happen, and what we need to do to win back his grace, I can see only one possible response to God's message.

We do not negotiate with Terrorists.

Amen!

545 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:58:51am

re: #541 Kragar

Dobson: Connecticut Shooting was God Allowing 'Judgment to Fall Upon Us' for Turning Our Back on Him

Operation Save America Calls Sandy Hook Interfaith Memorial Service an 'Affront to Almighty God'

Looking at the statements from the Right about how God let this happen, and what we need to do to win back his grace, I can see only one possible response to God's message.

We do not negotiate with Terrorists.

Fuck Dobson. He's no better than Phelps.

546 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:58:51am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Evolutionists and feminists

547 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:58:53am

re: #541 Kragar

Dobson: Connecticut Shooting was God Allowing 'Judgment to Fall Upon Us' for Turning Our Back on Him

Operation Save America Calls Sandy Hook Interfaith Memorial Service an 'Affront to Almighty God'

Looking at the statements from the Right about how God let this happen, and what we need to do to win back his grace, I can see only one possible response to God's message.

We do not negotiate with Terrorists.

That is fucking awesome. LOL!

548 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:59:03am

re: #533 Randall Gross

The totally free anything goes unregulated gun market envisioned by wingnuts does exist btw. Here's a video I posted a few years back that's since been updated by the creator:

[Embedded content]

Let's see, before clicking this will be either Somalia or Pakistan. (click) Ah, Pakistan it is.

549 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:59:40am

re: #541 Kragar

again, I wish I could upding this more.

550 Dr. Matt  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:00:03am

Interesting side note: For grins I went to the bushmaster website and attempted to place an order for a high capacity magazine and the website keeps crashing. I'm wondering if people are rushing to stock up since they will likely be outlawed next year.

551 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:00:30am

re: #550 Dr. Matt

bingo.

552 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:00:43am

re: #546 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Evolutionists and feminists

Feminists have been covered via the 'single mother, rejected male' meme.

553 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:01:32am

re: #550 Dr. Matt

Interesting side note: For grins I went to the bushmaster website and attempted to place an order for a high capacity magazine and the website keeps crashing. I'm wondering if people are rushing to stock up since they will likely be outlawed next year.

That's exactly it. Somebody a few days ago posted a study or something showing huge upticks in sales of weapons used in highly-publicized crimes.

554 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:02:07am

You know, people like Dobson like to claim that it's our "lack of God" that causes these. Perhaps the "good doctor" would like to explain why the Middle Ages were so violent. It was a much more religious time than it is today and religion was a huge part of society. Perhaps Dobson wants to bring back the Inquisition and the execution of anyone who is not in his eyes a true Christian. Newsflash. The problem isn't a lack of God. It's that an obviously disturbed young man had access to some very high powered weapons. I don't care if he was raised by outright Satanists. That's a bigger problem and to not acknowledge that is pathetic.

555 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:02:56am

re: #552 Decatur Deb

Feminists have been covered via the 'single mother, rejected male' meme.

Didn't the parents divorce when he was seventeen? Not that facts actually mean anything to the nuts? And of course there's his brother too.

556 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:03:13am

re: #520 Dr. Matt

Over the last 3 days teabaggers have blamed video games, Hollywood, lack of prayer, abortion, unions, teachers, and sex.

What's missing from this list?

teh creeping sharia!!1!

557 blueraven  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:03:31am

re: #541 Kragar

Dobson: Connecticut Shooting was God Allowing 'Judgment to Fall Upon Us' for Turning Our Back on Him

Operation Save America Calls Sandy Hook Interfaith Memorial Service an 'Affront to Almighty God'

Looking at the statements from the Right about how God let this happen, and what we need to do to win back his grace, I can see only one possible response to God's message.

We do not negotiate with Terrorists.

How come when they invoke God, it is never to speculate that maybe God is punishing us for letting the gun culture run amok and with our sick acceptance of it's violence?

558 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:03:44am

re: #555 HappyWarrior

Didn't the parents divorce when he was seventeen? Not that facts actually mean anything to the nuts? And of course there's his brother too.

Why are you applying logic?

559 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:03:47am

re: #505 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I just got a "Holiday bonus" from the agency I work for.

A $50 Target gift card.

Why can't they give $50 Target gift cards to CEO's instead of looting the workers' pension funds?

For the holidays this year, my employer catered a lunch one day. Ta-daaaa.

It consisted of utterly terribly BBQ brisket, baked beans that were all gone by the time I got to the cafeteria, potato salad and coleslaw, neither of which I will voluntarily eat.

Then they drew names at random and gave away an iPad.

Then we listened to a VP humblebrag about how honored he was to have been told by some unnamed employee that he had made a big difference in her life.

Surprisingly, none of this did anything to remedy my admittedly Scrooge-like disdain for this particular holiday.

560 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:04:19am

re: #558 Decatur Deb

Why are you applying logic?

I can't help it. :)

561 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:04:32am
562 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:04:43am

It's really curious that God chooses to communicate via means that are wholly explainable via scientific and secular thought processes, without even throwing us a bone by having God's wrath fall somewhere like, I dunno, a place where people aren't one of the most religious developed nations on Earth.

I would bet ten internet dollars that any whack-a-loon religious nutjob's answer to this apparent conundrum would involve the words 'American Exceptionalism' and 'faith'.

Because God only gives a shit about a small minority of those that He created in His image (particularly, the ones on the other side of the damned world from where He sent His son), and God really prefers that we not use these big lumps of thinking meat that He so wisely bestowed upon us.

(and also the whole bloody-murder-of-innocent-children thing, rather than sacrificing a humble bush, but never you mind that)

563 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:04:46am

re: #554 HappyWarrior

If you look beneath what they're saying and read between the lines, these "not enough God folks" are really just pushing, ultimately, for more money via donations and popularity. I sincerely doubt they actually give a secular shit about a "lack of God."

564 Dr. Matt  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:05:04am

re: #556 Dr Lizardo

teh creeping sharia!!1!

I've only been here at LGF for a few days but I'm starting to notice that appears to be the answer to everything! :)

565 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:05:14am

re: #563 Ghost of Tom Joad

If you look beneath what they're saying and read between the lines, these "not enough God folks" are really just pushing, ultimately, for more money via donations and popularity. I sincerely doubt they actually give a secular shit about a "lack of God."

True that.

566 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:05:49am

re: #564 Dr. Matt

I've only been here at LGF few days but I'm starting to notice that appears to be the answer to everything! :)

Yeah man. It's all about the Sharia. M-m-m-m-my Sharia.

567 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:05:59am

re: #561 Randall Gross

[Embedded content]

568 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06:07am

re: #561 Randall Gross

[Embedded content]

Cereberus?
Seriously?

569 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06:14am

re: #557 blueraven

How come when they invoke God, it is never to speculate that maybe God is punishing us for letting the gun culture run amok and with our sick acceptance of it's violence?

One of Jesus' favorite things in his time on this Earth was target-shooting. It's not really surprising that his pop is also a fan.

/

570 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06:51am

re: #533 Randall Gross

Other worldly.

No other words.

571 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:07:16am

re: #568 Varek Raith

Seriously.

572 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:07:21am

re: #567 Gus

[Embedded content]

Ugh, was it Quayle who wound up in charge of them? (unavoidable Illusive man joke notwithstanding)

edit: Nevermind, didn't read whole tweet. It's a less-popular version of Bain Capital. ugh

573 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:07:34am

re: #568 Varek Raith

Cereberus?
Seriously?

That's how Dan Quayle might spell it.

574 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:08:03am

re: #572 Ghost of Tom Joad

Seen Miranda lately?

575 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:08:17am

re: #554 HappyWarrior

You know, people like Dobson like to claim that it's our "lack of God" that causes these. Perhaps the "good doctor" would like to explain why the Middle Ages were so violent. It was a much more religious time than it is today and religion was a huge part of society. Perhaps Dobson wants to bring back the Inquisition and the execution of anyone who is not in his eyes a true Christian. Newsflash. The problem isn't a lack of God. It's that an obviously disturbed young man had access to some very high powered weapons. I don't care if he was raised by outright Satanists. That's a bigger problem and to not acknowledge that is pathetic.

American Protestants that vote Republicans are the only real Christians. Obviously God crapped on the Middle Ages for not getting to the Reformation, and then the complete roll-back of every theological point that drove the Reformation by American wingnut Christians.

Because the Catholic Church is the Whore of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox doesn't exist. is the Somewhat Tarted Up Neighbor's Wife of Somewhere Asiatic and Swarthy.

576 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:08:19am

re: #562 erik_t

It's really curious that God chooses to communicate via means that are wholly explainable via scientific and secular thought processes, without even throwing us a bone by having God's wrath fall somewhere like, I dunno, a place where people aren't one of the most religious developed nations on Earth.

I would bet ten internet dollars that any whack-a-loon religious nutjob's answer to this apparent conundrum would involve the words 'American Exceptionalism' and 'faith'.

Because God only gives a shit about a small minority of those that He created in His image (particularly, the ones on the other side of the damned world from where He sent His son), and God really prefers that we not use these big lumps of thinking meat that He so wisely bestowed upon us.

(and also the whole bloody-murder-of-innocent-children thing, rather than sacrificing a humble bush, but never you mind that)

I'd like to see the whole Westboro cult struck by lightning at the same time that Bryan Fischer's head spontaneously explodes.

That would send G-D's message.

577 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:08:24am

re: #571 Randall Gross

Seriously.

re: #573 Decatur Deb

That's how Dan Quayle might spell it.

Were they going for the 'evil corp' meme or was that just an accident???
Cereberus.
Sheesh.

578 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:09:26am

re: #557 blueraven

How come when they invoke God, it is never to speculate that maybe God is punishing us for letting the gun culture run amok and with our sick acceptance of it's violence?

Or why is it that an omnipotent deity couldn't have made the Earth over billions of years using observable scientific phenomenon, and designed us over that time using the process of evolution to have the cognitive capacity to explore his creation using science, instead using magic to fart the whole thing together in a week and putting in tricks to mislead us over what he really did?

579 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:10:39am

re: #578 Kragar

Because blind belief is better, higher, more noble than actual thought. I'm pretty sure that's actually what they think.

580 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:11:28am

re: #577 Varek Raith

re: #573 Decatur Deb

Were they going for the 'evil corp' meme or was that just an accident???
Cereberus.
Sheesh.

"Omni Consumer Products" was taken.

581 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:11:44am

re: #577 Varek Raith

Actual Bushmaster ad here:

[Link: digbysblog.blogspot.com...]

annnddddd....

David Atkins points out how progressive a game M.E. really is here:

[Link: digbysblog.blogspot.com...]

582 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:11:45am

re: #579 erik_t

Because blind belief is better, higher, more noble than actual thought. I'm pretty sure that's actually what they think.

It’s official: Texas GOP bans critical thinking

583 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:11:50am

re: #579 erik_t

Because blind belief is better, higher, more noble than actual thought. I'm pretty sure that's actually what they think.

It's called "the gift" of faith by many. Like they're gifted, special, all-important people.

584 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:12:03am

re: #580 Targetpractice

"Omni Consumer Products" was taken.

Yeah, I already called dibs on 'Weyland-Yutani'.

585 makeitstop  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:12:04am

re: #541 Kragar

Dobson: Connecticut Shooting was God Allowing 'Judgment to Fall Upon Us' for Turning Our Back on Him

Operation Save America Calls Sandy Hook Interfaith Memorial Service an 'Affront to Almighty God'

Looking at the statements from the Right about how God let this happen, and what we need to do to win back his grace, I can see only one possible response to God's message.

We do not negotiate with Terrorists.

My single humble upding is x1000.

586 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:12:07am

So was "Tyrell Corp"

587 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:12:55am

re: #581 Randall Gross

Actual Bushmaster ad here:

[Link: digbysblog.blogspot.com...]

annnddddd....

David Atkins points out how progressive a game M.E. really is here:

[Link: digbysblog.blogspot.com...]

Lololol.
Man card?
Progressive Mass Effect?

588 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:13:24am

re: #568 Varek Raith

Cereberus?
Seriously?

So The Illusive Man is Dan Quayle? That's certainly not what I expected.

589 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:13:27am

Anyone with an Instagram account have a bit of time to push back against the burning stupid from this chris paxton character? Apparently he's petrified of protesters depriving him of his precious, precious, penis extension.

590 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:14:26am

re: #587 Varek Raith

Read the article -- it makes sense on some levels, on others it seems rationalization for why a progressive can enjoy FPS's.

591 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:14:27am

re: #588 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

So The Illusive Man is Dan Quayle? That's certainly not what I expected.

He's also the Smoking Man.

592 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:14:27am

re: #587 Varek Raith

Lololol.
Man card?
Progressive Mass Effect?

Yeah you ain't a man unless you've fired this thing. Really. I don't give a shit if one wants to use a gun but it doesn't make you any more of a man to own or fire one. Rant off but I always thought that was stupid.

593 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:14:55am

re: #592 HappyWarrior

Yeah you ain't a man unless you've fired this thing. Really. I don't give a shit if one wants to use a gun but it doesn't make you any more of a man to own or fire one. Rant off but I always thought that was stupid.

Real men hull tank.

594 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:14:58am

re: #582 Kragar

It’s official: Texas GOP bans critical thinking

I have a Masters degree in Because Shut Up That's Why

595 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:15:23am

re: #569 erik_t

well, David was really good with a sling and stone, or so the story goes.

596 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:15:29am

re: #589 Interesting Times

just tweet "Shut up Chet" back...

597 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:15:46am

re: #582 Kragar

It’s official: Texas GOP bans critical thinking

If that goes through, we should build the dang fence.

Around Texas.

598 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:16:03am

re: #593 Varek Raith

Real men hull tank.

Real men use fists :).

599 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:16:27am

re: #598 HappyWarrior

Real men use fists :).

[Link: www.eveiverse.com...]
:)

600 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:16:50am

re: #598 HappyWarrior

Real men use fists :).

Real men win wars without ever having to fight.

601 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:16:54am

re: #599 Varek Raith

[Link: www.eveiverse.com...]
:)

Ah gotcha.

602 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:17:27am

re: #600 Ghost of Tom Joad

Real men win wars without ever having to fight.

Yep, a real man fights for peace rather than looking for the next fight.

603 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:18:27am

re: #597 Ghost of Tom Joad

If that goes through, we should build the dang fence.

Around Texas.

Sell Texas to Canada. If they'll take it.

604 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:19:46am

Why do people post pictures of their debit cards on Twitter? Is there like some MOST STUPID PERSON IN THE WORLD contest going on?

605 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:19:58am

I'm sick of the euphamistic "tragedy" description of this event. A tornado taking out the school and killing the children and teachers would be a tragedy. What happened was a deliberate human act of bloody massacre that was entirely preventable.

606 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:23:19am

re: #604 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why do people post pictures of their debit cards on Twitter? Is there like some MOST STUPID PERSON IN THE WORLD contest going on?

It pays the bills.

Not their bills, mind you.

608 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:24:41am

Heh.

609 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:25:34am

re: #608 Gus

Well that dovetails nicely with the Bill Moyers quote I just posted above.

610 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:25:39am

Huckabee Blames ‘Tax-Funded Abortion Pills’ For Newtown Massacre

Christian-owned businesses are told to surrender their values under the edict of government orders to provide tax-funded abortion pills. We carefully and intentionally stop saying things are sinful and we call them disorders. Sometimes, we even say they’re normal. And to get to where we have to abandon bed rock moral truths, then we ask “well, where was God?” And I respond that, as I see it, we’ve escorted him out of our culture and marched him off the public square and then we express our surprise that a culture without him reflects what it’s become.

Please continue Huck. Its always good to stock up some additional "WHY HUCKABEE WILL NEVER BE PRESIDENT" material.

611 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:25:47am

re: #590 Randall Gross

Read the article -- it makes sense on some levels, on others it seems rationalization for why a progressive can enjoy FPS's.

I think the first thing that should be pointed off the bat is that there are perfectly good reasons why the Council does not take Shepard seriously and has reason to distrust humanity.

612 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:25:48am

re: #608 Gus

[Embedded content]

Heh.

And moron LaPierre will use that statement as "proof" that he wants to take away guns because Wayne LaPierre cares only about stirring up the NRA membership.

613 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:26:08am

re: #604 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why do people post pictures of their debit cards on Twitter? Is there like some MOST STUPID PERSON IN THE WORLD contest going on?

lolwut?

Who's doing this? Is this A Thing Now?

614 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:28:16am

White House: "No specific agenda" to announce on gun control tpm.ly/T4f5Ou

Here's an agenda:

1) Don't mention guns.
2) Get 2-3 decent liberals on the USSC.
3) Work to elect 20 sane Representatives.
4) Hold the Senate.
then
5) Pass what most of the people want--better gun controls.

615 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:28:35am

re: #604 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why do people post pictures of their debit cards on Twitter? Is there like some MOST STUPID PERSON IN THE WORLD contest going on?

I kinda thought that was what Twitter had turned into...

616 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:30:26am

re: #614 Decatur Deb

White House: "No specific agenda" to announce on gun control tpm.ly/T4f5Ou

Here's an agenda:

1) Don't mention guns.
2) Get 2-3 decent liberals on the USSC.
3) Work to elect 20 sane Representatives.
4) Hold the Senate.
5) Pass what most of the people want--better gun controls.

It would be nice to gain some seats in the House in 2014. Though that's usually a situation that doesn't favor the President's party too much. However, I think the pendulum has started to swing against the Republicans after people saw their "jobs" focus in 2010 turn out to be nothing more than so-con bullshit.

617 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:31:25am

re: #609 Interesting Times

Well that dovetails nicely with the Bill Moyers quote I just posted above.

Where is that?

618 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:32:21am

re: #616 HappyWarrior

It would be nice to gain some seats in the House in 2014. Though that's usually a situation that doesn't favor the President's party too much. However, I think the pendulum has started to swing against the Republicans after people saw their "jobs" focus in 2010 turn out to be nothing more than so-con bullshit.

Yes. And an ill-conceived, badly executed run at the gun interests will tear the bottom out of that effort. Social Security isn't the only 3rd Rail out there.

619 Kragar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:32:37am

re: #615 Sol Berdinowitz

I kinda thought that was what Twitter had turned into...

620 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:34:02am

re: #617 Gus

Where is that?

Comment by me immediately above your #608.

621 blueraven  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:34:55am

Joe Manchin, yes he is a democrat, but a conservative from WV and also a lifetime member of the NRA is now ready to talk about a ban on assault weapons and high capacity clips. This massacre has opened his eyes.

622 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:35:48am

re: #620 Interesting Times

Comment by me immediately above your #608.

Ah, OK. Yeah, politics. Blech.

623 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:35:53am

re: #621 blueraven

Pencil: "capacity".

624 HappyWarrior  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:38:31am

re: #621 blueraven

Joe Manchin, yes he is a democrat, but a conservative from WV and also a lifetime member of the NRA is now ready to talk about a ban on assault weapons and high velocity clips. This massacre has opened his eyes.

Good for him.

625 blueraven  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:38:59am

re: #623 Decatur Deb

Pencil: "capacity".

done...if I am catching your drift. Gun Ignorance..I haz it

626 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:41:36am

re: #625 blueraven

done...if I am catching your drift. Gun Ignorance..I haz it

Actually, I should have called out 'magazine' for 'clip'. It's generally meaningless, but the gun nuts like to call out lack of precision in 'naive' libs.

627 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:54:45am

re: #576 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I'd like to see the whole Westboro cult struck by lightning at the same time that Bryan Fischer's head spontaneously explodes.

That would send G-D's message.

That Obama has been playing with the HAARP machine?
/

Seriously, *nothing* is going to shake them from the narrative they have chosen. It's buried so deep that they cannot afford to switch out of it without completely leveling their egos and starting over. It will be much easier for them to just construct another illogical and irrational layer to explain it away. They arrived where they are at via irrationality and they are not going to depart from there via rational thinking.

628 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:58:42am

Hi Lizards! A little update.. This post is going to maybe upset some here. The Military Channel had a show on last night called the fight for Fallujuh. Jordan was there so I was looking to see him on TV. I called my Boy to tell him it was coming on. He said you don't want to watch that dad. He was right..I'm really upset with the way the politicians fucked the Marines. I was also upset with Jordan and told him so.
Why didn't you tell me how bad it was? Why didn't you tell me about the house from hell? He said It would upset you pops.
A perfect ambush in a large 2 story house. My god they finally got out fighting and with 11 seriously wounded 2 dead. 2 navy crosses, silver and bronze stars and the 2nd highest metal ( which I can't remember )
For a couple hours it was brave Marines facing hell on earth. And pols not covering the backs of our military and preferring PC methods while they were being killed and they would advance to only have them stop for long periods of time and take on fire in the middle of town as sitting ducks meanwhile Nick Berg was having his head cut off a few blocks away.
We didn't see Jordan but about 9 minutes in there was Sgt. Howe kicking in doors. Good to see him again.


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“Chelsea Hotel” performed by Tal Wilkenfeld
I first saw Austrailian bass player Tal Wilkenfeld play with Jeff Beck (not live, mind you. On YouTube) and was amazed at her skills and chops. She was only 20 when she scored that gig. She's coming into her own ...

4 days, 6 hours ago
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FemNaziBitch
History of Laws Concerning Immigration and Naturalization in the United States -WIKI
The United States Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787. Article I, section 8, clause 4 of the Constitution expressly gives the United States Congress the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.[1] Pursuant to this power, Congress ...

4 days, 14 hours ago
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MichaelJ
COMFORTABLY NUMB - Peahi Nov 12 on Vimeo
Channel angle of the Nov 12th swell at Peahi.

1 week, 1 day ago
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Romantic Heretic
Money Makes Us Less Rational
Here's an interesting article on scientific studies that demonstrate how rationality and empathy break down is the presence of large amounts of money.

1 week, 3 days ago
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 Frank says:

It makes me wanna dance. -- From a FZ interview about some music he had composed (on the synclavier). It was written in 17/35 (or something like that).