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A Serious Question From Religious Right Caveman Bryan Fischer

Moar God, moar gunz
Wingnuts • Views: 26,217

American Family Association spokesman Bryan Fischer noticed that people didn’t respond very well to his statement that God could have protected the children in Newtown, but “God is not going to go where he’s not wanted,” because he’s a “gentleman.”

So today he posted this plaintive tweet on the Twitters:

Excellent question, Bryan. I would have to say yes, of course, but that doesn’t begin to capture the true essence of Fischer, the Eau de Fischer, if you will. I know Twitter limits us to 140 characters, but here at LGF we have no such constraints.

In addition to shockingly arrogant, immoral and insensitive, Bryan, other adjectives that pertain to you (and your organization) include: repulsive, disgusting, abhorrent, repellent, repugnant, offensive, objectionable, vile, foul, nasty, loathsome, sickening, nauseating, hateful, detestable, execrable, abominable, monstrous, noxious, horrendous, awful, terrible, dreadful, frightful, obnoxious, unsavory, unpleasant, disagreeable, distasteful, ugly, hideous, grotesque, ghastly, horrible, horrid, gross, and noisome.

Also: fanatical, zealous, extremist, militant, dogmatic, intolerant, single-minded, blinkered, and inflexible.

Does that answer your question?

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461 comments

1 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:57:59pm

Vanilla Taliban

2 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:58:00pm

Reposted from the previous thread:


Bryan Fischer would do well to read the Book of Matthew again:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

3 sauceruney  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:59:22pm

Jerky McJerkersons

4 The Mongoose  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 12:59:32pm

I sincerely hope this thread can be used to toss in more adjectives. Charles used up too many of the good ones, though...it'll be a challenge.

I'll throw in "cancerous". And, just for fun, "flatulent".

5 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:00:09pm

What kind of fucking God goes after the kids of the parents who decided he wasn't wanted? Is Bryan Fischer's God too much of a fucking coward to go after the parents themselves?

6 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:00:38pm

a page full of beautiful illustrations by the great kay nielsen to take your mind off of the crazyness for a couple of minutes

7 Pete Puma  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:01:21pm

I would ask if that was supposed to be rhetorical.

If there really is a God, I look forward to the day Fischer leaves this mortal coil and arrives at the Pearly Gates. I picture St Peter escorting Fischer straight to God Himself so He can personally jack-slap the taste out of his mouth and pull the old-school lever that sends Fischer downstairs. I imagine it will be delicious.

8 darthstar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:01:50pm

Yes, yes they are.

9 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:02:31pm

Pathological.

10 Bulworth  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:02:42pm
Are Gov. Huckabee and I “shockingly arrogant, immoral and insensitive?”: youtu.be/qrhgYjbIhkw via @youtube

— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) December 17, 2012

Yes.

11 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:02:51pm

Fischer and Huckabee totally believe that they are good, righteous men. Just like gun fetishists/hoarders are responsible gun owners.

12 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:03:36pm

re: #5 erik_t

What kind of fucking God goes after the kids of the parents who decided he wasn't wanted? Is Bryan Fischer's God too much of a fucking coward to go after the parents themselves?

Fischer's God is a malevolent, evil bastard. I wouldn't want to believe in that kind of monster.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -- Epicurius

13 The Mongoose  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:03:42pm

re: #7 Pete Puma

I would ask if that was supposed to be rhetorical.

If there really is a God, I look forward to the day Fischer leaves this mortal coil and arrives at the Pearly Gates. I picture St Peter escorting Fischer straight to God Himself so He can personally jack-slap the taste out of his mouth and pull the old-school lever that sends Fischer downstairs. I imagine it will be delicious.

Whenever I hear this shit about knowing God's will coming out of Fischer's facehole, I am reminded of this: Image: 325-Jesus-Did-I-stutter-christians-homophobia-jesus.jpg

14 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:03:50pm

re: #5 erik_t

What kind of fucking God goes after the kids of the parents who decided he wasn't wanted? Is Bryan Fischer's God too much of a fucking coward to go after the parents themselves?

Fisher's god is surprisingly weak. For example, when he wants to kill one person on a plane, he just kills everybody. Lazy, or incompetent? You decide.

15 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:04:10pm

Fischer deliberately trolls Twitter and when people respond calling him "Heartless asshole," "fuckball," and other compliments, he cries that he's "persecuted."

*spit*

16 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:04:19pm
17 nines09  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:06:02pm

Bryan is less than a pimple on the ass of mankind. And to answer his Tweet, "No, you two are worse than that. Cretinous slime is what you two are."

18 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:06:06pm

Bryan, why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?

19 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:07:02pm

re: #15 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Fischer deliberately trolls Twitter and when people respond calling him "Heartless asshole," "fuckball," and other compliments, he cries that he's "persecuted."

*spit*

Twitter Purgatory.

20 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:07:31pm

Seems telling that Bryan never really mentions the portion of the Trinity that usually was not a raving blood-lusting fiery wrathful lunatic. Maybe this is what you get when you profess literal word-by-word belief in Crazy Vengeful Old-Testament God. Distant-But-Loving New-Testament God sure mellowed out, but we never hear much about him.

21 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:08:10pm

I'd add bitter.

22 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:08:18pm

re: #19 wrenchwench

Twitter Purgatory.

iNFERNO

23 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:08:43pm

re: #21 Amory Blaine

I'd add bitter.

Clinging.

To guns.

24 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:09:02pm

re: #19 wrenchwench

Twitter Purgatory.

Really, the man cannot be slotted any higher than the fifth circle.

25 GunstarGreen  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:11:04pm

Ed over at Gin and Tacos managed to whip up a post of constructive ideas for dealing with this, given that the gun-crazed right will never allow any truly meaningful firearms regulation legislation to go through.

Essentially, ban the sale of new high-capacity magazines, and offer government (federal and/or local) buyback incentives to turn over existing high-capacity magazines or illegally-modified fully-automatic weapons. No questions asked, just head over to your local police department, drop them off, and get a check.

The idea being that, since people would howl from one end of the nation to the other about restricting the sales of the weapons themselves, few people could justify absolutely needing 30 rounds in a magazine instead of 15. It's only inconvenience for legitimate gun owners using their weapons for legitimate reasons, but every extra reload a mass-shooter has to go through buys a little more time for the cops and the victims.

26 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:11:19pm

I fear and grieve for a culture in which these two men have public pulpits and, apparently, followers.

27 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:12:28pm

re: #11 allegro

Fischer and Huckabee totally believe that they are good, righteous men. Just like gun fetishists/hoarders are responsible gun owners.

Yep, and just like the Talibanis & Jihadis--they're all "saving" their people from their sins. It's the exact same extremist ideology/pathology, the difference being that (so far) they only support violence against the supposed "sinners" instead of actively engaging in its execution. Give them time--as reserarchok always says, any pathology left untreated will only escalate.

28 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:13:04pm

For some reason, Bryan made the point that the worst school massacre in US history did not involve guns.
Actually a gun was peripherally involved but the damage was done by explosives the perp had legally purchased. He was a disgruntled taxpayer, btw, (and where have we heard that before?).

This is part of the reason explosives are so tightly controlled and regulated these days.
I suggest an experiment:
Go to your local WalMart, Bryan, and ask them for a Bushmaster rifle. They'll sell it to you.
Now go back and ask them for a ton of explosives. See what happens.

29 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:13:07pm

re: #25 GunstarGreen

Ed over at Gin and Tacos managed to whip up a post of constructive ideas for dealing with this, given that the gun-crazed right will never allow any truly meaningful firearms regulation legislation to go through.

Essentially, ban the sale of new high-capacity magazines, and offer government (federal and/or local) buyback incentives to turn over existing high-capacity magazines or illegally-modified fully-automatic weapons. No questions asked, just head over to your local police department, drop them off, and get a check.

The idea being that, since people would howl from one end of the nation to the other about restricting the sales of the weapons themselves, few people could justify absolutely needing 30 rounds in a magazine instead of 15. It's only inconvenience for legitimate gun owners using their weapons for legitimate reasons, but every extra reload a mass-shooter has to go through buys a little more time for the cops and the victims.

But it's my right!!!

30 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:13:10pm

Another adjective would be "ipecacic."

31 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:13:25pm

re: #26 allegro

I fear and grieve for a culture in which these two men have public pulpits and, apparently, followers.

Well, the 1st part of that is free speech. The 2nd part, well, as Carlin said "think of the average American's intelligence. Then realize half of them are dumber than that."

32 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:15:10pm

Didn't someone half-jokingly predict this here?

Newtown Conspiracy Hoax Spreads Fast Across Fringe

33 A Mom Anon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:16:18pm

Vomitrocious. Hateful. Vicious. Destructive. Anti Democracy. Lying. Deceptive. Soulless. Morally Bankrupt. Hater of Life.

I can't stand these freaks anymore. America is too strong to be torn apart from the outside. From the inside though is a different story.

34 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:17:12pm

re: #31 Ghost of Tom Joad

Well, the 1st part of that is free speech. The 2nd part, well, as Carlin said "think of the average American's intelligence. Then realize half of them are dumber than that."

It isn't a free speech issue. There is no right to TV and radio shows.

35 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:17:13pm

Again: the NRA argues that "guns don't kill, people do!"

Which I can begin to accept to a degree.

But why do they think that the mere presence of guns in schools is suddenly going to radiate an aura of protection?

Guns can only protect people in public places if they are wielded by a trained, experienced professional with steady nerves, quick reflexes and a very sound sense of judgement.

Are these to become part of the standard skills set for schoolteachers and administrators?

36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:17:16pm

re: #32 dragonath

Didn't someone half-jokingly predict this here?

Newtown Conspiracy Hoax Spreads Fast Across Fringe

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

37 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:18:05pm

The worst school massacre in history did not, as a matter of fact, involve guns. This goes all the way back to 1927. Forty-five people died as an alarm clock detonated a five-hundred-pound dynamite and pyrotol bomb that a guy by the name of Kehoe had hidden in the north end of a school basement.

I wonder if it has occurred to Fischer that it's kind of hard to blame this massacre on the absence of God from the schools, since it occurred more than 30 years before the court decisions that expelled Him from the classroom. So while I understand that God couldn't help the kids & staff at Sandy Hook because He wasn't allowed into the school (\), where the heck was He when Kehoe was planting that bomb?

38 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:18:10pm

There is nothing that can ever be said to somebody like Fischer. There are no words (feel like I'm quoting treebeard here) in the tongues of men for how evil he, and people like him, are. They see any act against them as vindication of their ideas. Right now he's reveling in the responses to his question.

The only thing that would hurt somebody like him would be absolute obscurity. That would be his ultimate damnation.

39 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:18:40pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why should people be expected to alter established patterns of behavior?

40 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:18:50pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

[Embedded content]

There's a conspiracy theory that Malkin's not willing to invest in? My mind, she is blown!

41 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:19:01pm

To stop these tragedies I think the mental health, prevention approach will bear the most fruit in the future, not the least because the gun control way is sort of barred; and then these "religious" types are no help either because they seem to secretely delight in these tragedies, as they can use the event to feed their own corrupt sense of self-righteousness.

42 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:19:06pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

Too crazy for Michelle Malkin. I have no words.

43 GunstarGreen  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:19:35pm

The really sad thing is that, much like the good ol' Religion vs. Atheism debate, the gun control debate boils down to a matter of "but mine is special!"

Do you think people should be allowed to purchase and own nuclear weapons? Why not?

Do you think people should be allowed to purchase and own battle tanks? Why not?

Do you think people should be allowed to purchase and own rocket launchers? Why not?

Do you think people should be allowed to purchase and own assault weapons? Why or why not?

Do you think people should be allowed to purchase and own high-capacity magazines/cartridges for small arms? Why or why not?

44 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:19:44pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

[Embedded content]

Irony.

45 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:19:58pm
46 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:20:10pm

re: #44 Varek Raith

Irony.

Morony.

47 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:20:31pm

re: #40 Targetpractice

There's a conspiracy theory that Malkin's not willing to invest in? My mind, she is blown!

She's just pissy she didn't come up with it first, or can't come up with anything better.

48 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:21:00pm

re: #2 dragonfire1981

Reposted from the previous thread:

Bryan Fischer would do well to read the Book of Matthew again:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

He would gain nothing from rereading that passage. I think he'd most likely think that Jesus was talking about Barack Obama and not him.

49 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:22:17pm

re: #43 GunstarGreen

The 2nd amendment is well served by a simple bolt action rifle with a scope. Potential tyrants will well respect those, in the hands of responsible citizens. Beyond that we need not go.

50 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:22:56pm

re: #49 Ojoe

The 2nd amendment is well served by a simple bolt action rifle with a scope. Potential tyrants will well respect those, in the hands of responsible citizens. Beyond that we need not go.

Why does a regular citizen need a sniper weapon?

51 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:23:02pm

re: #47 Ghost of Tom Joad

She's just pissy she didn't come up with it first, or can't come up with anything better.

GREAT SCOTT, THE LIBYANS!

52 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:23:16pm

I would like to think that we have seen a certain High Water mark - not in wingnuttery, but in their ability to find mainstream acceptance or toleration for their idiotic ideas.

That image of the children being led from the school is the moral equivalent of that photo of the girl running from the napalm attack in Vietnam - the thing that started to turn the tide of public opinion on a vital issue that was tearing America apart.

53 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:23:38pm

re: #50 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why does a regular citizen need a sniper weapon?

What does God need with a starship?

//

54 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:23:39pm

re: #50 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why does a regular citizen need a sniper weapon?

Drawing a line between a hunting rifle and a sniper's weapon is going to be tricky indeed.

55 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:23:42pm

re: #50 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why does a regular citizen need a sniper weapon?

Eh, you probably want a scope if you're deer hunting.

56 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:24:08pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

[Embedded content]

No wonder. Malkin knows this was all about the Benghazi coverup. These other theories are just crazy talk.

57 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:24:29pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

[Embedded content]

I think Michelle Malkin just woke up and and realized that the conspiracists she climbed into bed with look much worse in the clear light of day than in the hazy twilight of "rallying to bring down Obama".

58 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:24:31pm

re: #53 Targetpractice

Wow...hardcore Trekkie.

59 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:25:29pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

I think Michelle Malkin just woke up and and realized that the conspiracists she climbed into bed with look much worse in the clear light of day than in the hazy twilight of "rallying to bring down Obama".

That's giving her credit for having some self awareness.

60 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:25:39pm

re: #58 Ghost of Tom Joad

Wow...hardcore Trekkie.

THERE.
ARE.
FOUR.
LIGHTS!

61 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:26:02pm

re: #54 erik_t

Drawing a line between a hunting rifle and a sniper's weapon is going to be tricky indeed.

There is no line. Any rifle can be considered "a sniper's weapon" if that's what the rifle is being used for. Scope/caliber doesn't matter.

62 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:26:27pm

re: #50 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

This leads to the "all governments devolve to tyrannies" argument, and the idea that such pieces of hardware, if out there in some numbers, will deter the (name your type of power abuser) from even trying. I think there is some truth to this, from my reading of history. But it should be a quiet thing in the background.

63 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:27:08pm

re: #50 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Why does a regular citizen need a sniper weapon?

For game hunting, and target shooting. At least as far as that kind of precision rifle goes, the good they do outweighs the harm they cause very greatly. Ojoe isn't talking about a weapon well suited to mass murder.

64 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:27:15pm

re: #61 Ghost of Tom Joad

There is no line. Any rifle can be considered "a sniper's weapon" if that's what the rifle is being used for. Scope/caliber doesn't matter.

Sort of my point, but the words came out of my fingers all lumpy and misshapen.

65 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:28:16pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

No. It is ill suited to that, and that is a good thing.

66 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:28:33pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

I think Michelle Malkin just woke up and and realized that the conspiracists she climbed into bed with look much worse in the clear light of day than in the hazy twilight of "rallying to bring down Obama".

Up to now, it has been SOP to embrace anything that seems to put Obama in a negative light. Now they are even embracing this horrible event, and really showing what a bunch of toxic assholes they are and have been.

I hope we have reached a certain watershed here.

67 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:28:45pm

re: #62 Ojoe

This leads to the "all governments devolve to tyrannies" argument, and the idea that such pieces of hardware, if out there in some numbers, will deter the (name your type of power abuser) from even trying. I think there is some truth to this, from my reading of history. But it should be a quiet thing in the background.

Oh please. There ain't nothing citizens with a guns can do against the might of the US Army, Navy and Air Force.

68 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:29:25pm

re: #62 Ojoe

If you look at it, those same folks who talk of "defending themselves" and keeping the government from "taking over" tend to be the same people who want to take over.

69 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:30:03pm

re: #67 Varek Raith

Oh please. There ain't nothing citizens with a guns can do against the might of the US Army, Navy and Air Force.

Assuming that we can get the military to turn on its own citizens in the first place: lots of regimes have been brought down over that sticking point.

70 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:30:13pm

re: #60 Varek Raith

THERE.
ARE.
FOUR.
LIGHTS!

Fascinating.

71 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:30:26pm

re: #61 Ghost of Tom Joad

There is no line. Any rifle can be considered "a sniper's weapon" if that's what the rifle is being used for. Scope/caliber doesn't matter.

The weapon used by James Earl Ray was a common Remington hunting rifle.

72 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:30:45pm

re: #59 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

That's giving her credit for having some self awareness.

Yes, but I think she has that. She did avoid Trump fever, and used her column on NRO to remind readers of how Donald Trump's disrespect for the property of others showed he was no friend to conservative principals. She while she has massive problems, and though I have long ago stopped being a fan of hers, Michelle Malkin is not so delusional as to not understand why trying to Call Newtown a 'false flag' is horrendous.

73 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:31:05pm

re: #70 Targetpractice

Fascinating.

Should've known something was up, but I never looked and saw Mr. Freeman was your avatar.

Fascinating indeed.

74 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:32:30pm

re: #70 Targetpractice

Fascinating.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

75 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:32:45pm

re: #73 Ghost of Tom Joad

Should've known something was up, but I never looked and saw Mr. Freeman was your avatar.

Fascinating indeed.

Truly one of the greatest silent protagonists ever.

76 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:33:02pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

For game hunting, and target shooting. At least as far as that kind of precision rifle goes, the good they do outweighs the harm they cause very greatly. Ojoe isn't talking about a weapon well suited to mass murder.

if it's semi-auto and accepts a box magazine with a large capacity, it essentially is the weapon used to kill all those kids. Adding a pistol grip and painting it black doesn't change the essential nature of the weapon.

That is the essential point of this page:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

77 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:33:26pm

re: #68 Ghost of Tom Joad

Ironic is it not?

But they are not the only ones who have rifles.

Now I am going to leave off this argument.

* * * *

We should get laws like Laura's Law on the books. My town lost two fine citizens to a disturbed guy with a semi-auto, and you could see it coming, and the guy refused treatment of any kind, and he's dead now too; a swat team hunted him down in the woods and took him out.

78 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:33:48pm

re: #74 Four More Tears

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

I am not a merry man!

79 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:34:10pm

re: #75 Targetpractice

Truly one of the greatest silent protagonists ever.

Valve needs to hurry up and get him back in action before he gets too old.

80 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:34:58pm

re: #71 William Barnett-Lewis

The weapon used by James Earl Ray was a common Remington hunting rifle.

Lee Harvey Oswald used an Italian bold action rifle of a caliber that the Italian Army was actually moving away from during WWII, as they felt it lacked lethality. Lethality, however, is always given a boost when the weapon is in the hands of someone who knows how to use it to its full potential. And this Oswald knew how to do, turning the training he had been given to defend America to attack her instead by striking down one of her best and bravest.

81 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:35:52pm

re: #76 uncah91

if it's semi-auto and accepts a box magazine with a large capacity, it essentially is the weapon used to kill all those kids.

This is straining the bounds of rationality. As militaries the world over well know, long rifles of large caliber are very badly suited to close quarters use (which would certainly encompass anything indoors short of a football stadium). If these were essentially the same, untold billions would not have been spent making the change over the last fifty years.

A perfectly strong and damning case can be made for dramatically increased gun control legislation without straining facts.

82 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:35:56pm

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

Lee Harvey Oswald used an Italian bold action rifle of a caliber that the Italian Army was actually moving away from during WWII, as they felt it lacked lethality. Lethality, however, is always given a boost when the weapon is in the hands of someone who knows how to use it to its full potential. And this Oswald knew how to do, turning the training he had been given to defend America to attack her instead by striking down one of her best and bravest.

You still think the shot did not come from the Grassy Knoll?

83 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:36:40pm

re: #76 uncah91

if it's semi-auto and accepts a box magazine with a large capacity, it essentially is the weapon used to kill all those kids. Adding a pistol grip and painting it black doesn't change the essential nature of the weapon.

That is the essential point of this page:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I remain more concerned by the mind behind the weapon than the weapon itself.

84 KiTA  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:37:17pm
85 Ian G.  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:37:23pm

I'm an atheist because I simply can't bring myself to believe in God, knowing what I do about the universe and how it works.

But I tell ya, Bryan Fischer and his ilk make a helluva lot easier to be an atheist.

86 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:37:32pm

re: #82 Sol Berdinowitz

You still think the shot did not come from the Grassy Knoll?

I believe Oswald fired the fatal shot.

87 gwangung  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:38:01pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

He would gain nothing from rereading that passage. I think he'd most likely think that Jesus was talking about Barack Obama and not him.

Which is why it applies most forcefully to him.

88 Destro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:38:04pm

re: #2 dragonfire1981

Reposted from the previous thread:

Bryan Fischer would do well to read the Book of Matthew again:

They rather read the OT (especially the Hulk smash err I mean God smites part) than the NT.

89 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:38:32pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

I remain more concerned by the mind behind the weapon than the weapon itself.

It's the weapon that does the damage.

90 KiTA  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:38:43pm

Oh, and just in case you didn't see it, the little gnome gets even worse:

91 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:40:32pm

These guys are so used to ramping it up and doubling down and finding applause and acceptance for doing so...It is starting to look like they have just gone over the Rhetorical Cliff and they don't even know it yes, like the Coyote flailing his legs in thin air before he falls to the canyon floor...

92 Destro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:40:56pm

Apparently, God spares 22 atheist communist Chinese school kids from a knife attacking madman but allows American school kids to die at the hands of a gun wielding madman.

93 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:41:32pm

re: #90 KiTA

We need God and loaded guns in our schools:

Fischer, how about you keep your god and precious loaded guns in your church where you can deal with the consequences. Leave the rest of us out of your sick fantasies.

94 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:41:45pm

re: #89 allegro

It's the weapon that does the damage.

Well, either we can limit the access to weapons, or...what? Lock up somebody because "wow, that guy is a little strange. He's going to shoot up a school full of children."

95 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:42:21pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

I am not a merry man!

Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!

96 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:42:51pm

Wait, why do we need God and loaded guns? If God could have stepped in on this shooting, sans other firearms, why would he need them in a future situation?

Is God the primary goal, or the gun?
Is God the backup safety mechanism, or the gun?

97 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:42:56pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but I think she has that. She did avoid Trump fever, and used her column on NRO to remind readers of how Donald Trump's disrespect for the property of others showed he was no friend to conservative principals. She while she has massive problems, and though I have long ago stopped being a fan of hers, Michelle Malkin is not so delusional as to not understand why trying to Call Newtown a 'false flag' is horrendous.

But self awareness is not enough. So I say this (and I'll likely send it her as well):

Michelle, you need to disassociate yourself from those conspiracists. All conservatives who are aware do, for otherwise they'll be the ruin of us. They have become evil doers, and we must not stand with them or America will not stand with us. They'll call us "traitors" for our denouncing them, but there's nothing for it. Justice demands they be held to account for their lies.

98 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:43:02pm

re: #81 erik_t

This is straining the bounds of rationality. As militaries the world over well know, long rifles of large caliber are very badly suited to close quarters use (which would certainly encompass anything indoors short of a football stadium). If these were essentially the same, untold billions would not have been spent making the change over the last fifty years.

A perfectly strong and damning case can be made for dramatically increased gun control legislation without straining facts.

ojoe didn't specify caliber or barrel length.

Again, if you concentrate on how the weapon looks, and not its capabilities, you miss the point. During the assault weapons ban of the 90s they continued to make perfectly legal versions of the AR15 by simply changing some essentially cosmetic features and changing the magazine size.

Again, to quote the page:

What they are really talking about are three features - the fact that these rifles are semi automatic, that they are designed to accept high capacity magazines and that they are often - not always but often - chambered for small, high velocity rounds, rounds designed to break up in the body and cause maximum damage.

99 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:43:29pm

re: #94 Ghost of Tom Joad

Well some of each. You can spot some of the strange if you know how to look.

100 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:43:35pm

re: #94 Ghost of Tom Joad

Well, either we can limit the access to weapons, or...what? Lock up somebody because "wow, that guy is a little strange. He's going to shoot up a school full of children."

Exactly. Unless we want to live in a Minority Report world, limiting access to weapons and ammo is all we've got.

101 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:44:44pm

re: #85 Ian G.

I'm an atheist because I simply can't bring myself to believe in God, knowing what I do about the universe and how it works.

But I tell ya, Bryan Fischer and his ilk make a helluva lot easier to be an atheist.

Agreed on both counts. I've been an atheist pretty much most of my life. By the time I was in my teens, all the stories and myths I was being taught in church had failed to resonate with me. I still went through the motions but by the time I was out of high school and on my own, I'd stopped going to church and stopped trying to force myself to believe in God. I think there's far too much wonder in the real universe to get caught up in superstition and myth.

That said, assholes like Fischer and Huckabee make it a lot easier to be an atheist, because the God they profess to believe in is such a malevolent, sanctimonious, evil bastard that I wouldn't want to worship him anyway.

102 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:44:56pm

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

But self awareness is not enough. So I say this (and I'll likely send it her as well):

Michelle, you need to disassociate yourself from those conspiracists. All conservatives who are aware do, for otherwise they'll be the ruin of us. They have become evil doers, and we must not stand with them or America will not stand with us. They'll call us "traitors" for our denouncing them, but there's nothing for it. Justice demands they be held to account for their lies.

That you can write to her and use the word 'us' gives me pause, renunciation of fandom notwithstanding.

103 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:45:16pm

re: #98 uncah91

I said bolt action & I should have included "single shot." The second amendment does not need anything more.

104 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:46:02pm

re: #103 Ojoe

I said bolt action & I should have included "single shot." The second amendment does not need anything more.

Considering when it was written, each citizen has access to a musket, some powder, and a few round marbles. That's it.

105 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:46:51pm

re: #95 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!

Ye cannae change the laws of physics!

106 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:47:19pm

re: #98 uncah91

ojoe didn't specify caliber or barrel length.

Again, if you concentrate on how the weapon looks, and not its capabilities, you miss the point. During the assault weapons ban of the 90s they continued to make perfectly legal versions of the AR15 by simply changing some essentially cosmetic features and changing the magazine size.

Again, to quote the page:

Yes, the entire point would be that the characteristics you stated (semi-auto rifle with large magazine) are not sufficient to differentiate between the two. You stated in #76 that they are 'essentially the same' conditional on only those features; this is not really correct.

107 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:47:47pm

re: #94 Ghost of Tom Joad

Well, either we can limit the access to weapons, or...what? Lock up somebody because "wow, that guy is a little strange. He's going to shoot up a school full of children."

"Keep that loony away from my guns!"

108 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:49:03pm

So, all those on the right talking about mental health...
Why have you been opposed to it for so long?
Why do your refuse to pay for it?
Please, stop the sham argument.
You guys want nothing to do with the Fed providing mental healtcare.

109 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:49:11pm

re: #103 Ojoe

I said bolt action & I should have included "single shot." The second amendment does not need anything more.

I'm willing to grant Manchin, say, his three-round tubular magazine on a bolt-action. But I don't think we're really disagreeing.

110 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:49:29pm

Info on Laura's Law:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

BBL

111 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:49:35pm

re: #103 Ojoe

Ah, missed that descriptor. Got caught up in the hunting rifle/sniper rifle false dichotomy.

112 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:50:14pm

re: #100 allegro

Exactly. Unless we want to live in a Minority Report world, limiting access to weapons and ammo is all we've got.

It's not just about limiting, but about securing. Own a weapon? Must provide proof off ownership of a certified safe or lock-box for the weapon. If that weapon is used in a crime and was taken because it was not properly secured, the owner becomes fully criminally liable for whatever crime was committed with it.

Collector-types wouldn't have any issues with this, because they're usually already secure in their items. The gun companies themselves would shit bricks because they'd lose out on sales. The lobbying will be insane.

113 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:50:26pm

re: #108 Varek Raith

So, all those on the right talking about mental health...
Why have you been opposed to it for so long?
Why do your refuse to pay for it?
Please, stop the sham argument.
You guys want nothing to do with the Fed providing mental healtcare.

Talking about mental health is such bullshit. They're using it as a distraction so that no one talks about guns.

114 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:50:38pm

re: #36 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Somebody is very embarrassed that it is making her look bad:

[Embedded content]

Hard to imagine that with Ms. Twitchy herself...

115 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:51:11pm

re: #74 Four More Tears

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

That was a great concert.

116 sagehen  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:51:22pm

re: #28 Shiplord Kirel

Now go back and ask them for a ton of explosives. See what happens.

You can't even buy a truckload of fertilizer to make your own explosives... not until you demonstrate how many acres you have under cultivation and what you're growing and how much fertilizer is needed right at the moment for this particular growing season because you can't just get a few years worth and stockpile it....

117 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:51:28pm

re: #100 allegro

Exactly. Unless we want to live in a Minority Report world, limiting access to weapons and ammo is all we've got.

And they knew somebody would be committing a crime. (Granted, they didn't need to permanently lock those people up.) We don't have anywhere close to that.

118 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:51:42pm

I'll tell you what, after today's crap anyone who's still willing to vote for a politician that goes to Fischer to kiss his ring and receive a benediction needs to have their frigging head examined. Ditto for anyone who thinks Huckabee is a "kindly uncle" type, "cool" because of his guitar playing, or a suitable candidate for anything above the position of dog catcher.

119 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:52:40pm

re: #118 CuriousLurker

I'll tell you what, after today's crap anyone who's still willing to vote for a politician that goes to Fischer to kiss his ring and receive a benediction needs to have their frigging head examined. Ditto for anyone who thinks Huckabee is a "kindly uncle" type, "cool" because of his guitar playing, or a suitable candidate for anything above the position of dog catcher.

He would not be suitable for a dog catcher position.

120 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:52:45pm

re: #118 CuriousLurker

I'll tell you what, after today's crap anyone who's still willing to vote for a politician that goes to Fischer to kiss his ring and receive a benediction needs to have their frigging head examined. Ditto for anyone who thinks Huckabee is a "kindly uncle" type, "cool" because of his guitar playing, or a suitable candidate for anything above the position of dog catcher.

Even that is debatable, he would only go after Blue Dogs.

121 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:52:58pm

re: #118 CuriousLurker

I'll tell you what, after today's crap anyone who's still willing to vote for a politician that goes to Fischer to kiss his ring and receive a benediction needs to have their frigging head examined. Ditto for anyone who thinks Huckabee is a "kindly uncle" type, "cool" because of his guitar playing, or a suitable candidate for anything above and including the position of dog catcher.

I'm not even that big of a dog fan.

122 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:53:03pm

re: #71 William Barnett-Lewis

The weapon used by James Earl Ray was a common Remington hunting rifle.

Experience and training counts as much, if not more, than the equipment used.

Will and skill count for a lot.

123 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:53:08pm

re: #104 Ghost of Tom Joad

Considering when it was written, each citizen has access to a musket, some powder, and a few round marbles. That's it.

Are we going to restrict freedom of the press only to methods available in the 18th century too?

124 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:53:11pm

Someone called into an NPR show I was listening to in the car this morning, and said pretty much exactly the same thing as Fischer. He was convinced that "immorality" caused the Newtown shootings, and that the solution was to "get God back into the schools."

Fischer's not an outlier. Fischer and Mike Huckabee and James Dobson are speaking for a lot of people. This is how the religious right is spinning the atrocity.

125 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:54:12pm

re: #116 sagehen

You can't even buy a truckload of fertilizer to make your own explosives... not until you demonstrate how many acres you have under cultivation and what you're growing and how much fertilizer is needed right at the moment for this particular growing season because you can't just get a few years worth and stockpile it....

What kind of commie country would restrict the fertilizer I need to feed my family?

126 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:54:27pm

re: #124 Charles Johnson

They are nuts.

127 Tigger2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:54:49pm

re: #25 GunstarGreen

Ed over at Gin and Tacos managed to whip up a post of constructive ideas for dealing with this, given that the gun-crazed right will never allow any truly meaningful firearms regulation legislation to go through.

Essentially, ban the sale of new high-capacity magazines, and offer government (federal and/or local) buyback incentives to turn over existing high-capacity magazines or illegally-modified fully-automatic weapons. No questions asked, just head over to your local police department, drop them off, and get a check.

The idea being that, since people would howl from one end of the nation to the other about restricting the sales of the weapons themselves, few people could justify absolutely needing 30 rounds in a magazine instead of 15. It's only inconvenience for legitimate gun owners using their weapons for legitimate reasons, but every extra reload a mass-shooter has to go through buys a little more time for the cops and the victims.

If they want to use a AR-15 for hunting why not just have a 5 round clip like most, not all hunting rifles use.

128 Destro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:55:04pm

Republicans, you all may talk a good game about economics being your motivating agenda but face facts, your party has become the home of religious extremist kooks like this one. Fischer's comments are not mainstream of any of the Abrahamic religions (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Mormon, Judaic or even as far as I can recall Muslim thought).

You have an ideology based on cult leaders making shit up to justify political agendas.

9/11 happens? God is angry. Madman kills a score of kids (KIDS!) God is angry. Vote like we want and God will be happy and make us all millionaires......

That is the type to whom the GOP has become hostage to.

Sort your shit out Republicans.

129 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:55:06pm

re: #123 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Are we going to restrict freedom of the press only to methods available in the 18th century too?

Well....considering the current state of the press in this country.... :-)

The press isn't getting people killed.

130 Destro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:55:41pm

re: #74 Four More Tears

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

"When the walls fell"

131 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:56:17pm

re: #110 Ojoe

Info on Laura's Law:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

BBL

Related: Thinking the Unthinkable

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

Please read the whole post before replying.

132 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:56:39pm

re: #128 Destro

Barry Goldwater was correct to say that it was a mistake for the GOP to hitch up with the religious right.

133 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:56:45pm

re: #106 erik_t

Yes, the entire point would be that the characteristics you stated (semi-auto rifle with large magazine) are not sufficient to differentiate between the two. You stated in #76 that they are 'essentially the same' conditional on only those features; this is not really correct.

Although, speaking of straining credulity, linking to the primary light machine gun of WW2 and saying it couldn't decimate a couple of classrooms of kids is stretching it, isn't it?

Plus, the M16 was really more of a replacement for the M1 (especially if we only consider semi-auto fire).

134 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:57:02pm

re: #128 Destro

Republicans, you all may talk a good game about economics being your motivating agenda but face facts, your party has become the home of religious extremist kooks like this one. This is not mainstream of any of the Abrahamic religions (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Mormon, Judaic or even as far as I can recall Muslim thought).

You have an ideology based on cult leaders making shit up to justify political agendas.

9/11 happens? God is angry. Madman kills a score of kids (KIDS!) God is angry. Vote like we want and God will be happy and make us all millionaires......

That is the type to whom the GOP has become hostage to.

Sort your shit out Republicans.

It's bad. They have combined religion with some kind of Randian-fuck the poor ideology.

135 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:57:03pm

re: #124 Charles Johnson

Someone called into an NPR show I was listening to in the car this morning, and said pretty much exactly the same thing as Fischer. He was convinced that "immorality" caused the Newtown shootings, and that the solution was to "get God back into the schools."

Fischer's not an outlier. Fischer and Mike Huckabee and James Dobson are speaking for a lot of people. This is how the religious right is spinning the atrocity.

And then they accuse Obama of politicizing it, quoting the supposed Alinsky tactic of "never let a crisis go to waste." The religious right is only promoting the same agenda they always do, not addressing the chance of another massacre at all.

136 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:57:20pm

There was a shooting rampage inside a church while a service was in progress in Ft. Worth, TX, in 1999.

Not enough God in churches, I guess?

137 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:57:45pm

re: #124 Charles Johnson

Someone called into an NPR show I was listening to in the car this morning, and said pretty much exactly the same thing as Fischer. He was convinced that "immorality" caused the Newtown shootings, and that the solution was to "get God back into the schools."

Fischer's not an outlier. Fischer and Mike Huckabee and James Dobson are speaking for a lot of people. This is how the religious right is spinning the atrocity.

And sad to say, you're right.

138 Coracle  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:57:50pm

Belief in evolution is often taken by the religious right as a broad proxy for secularism and general faithless/godlessness, the neanderthals like Fischer believe that there is a direct correlation between that and these kinds of massacres.

The truth is the opposite.

Image: wpid-Photo-Jul-22-2012-1201-AM.jpg

139 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:58:33pm

re: #130 Destro

"When the walls fell"

So we've shifted from talking about Star Trek to talking about Jericho now?

/

140 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:58:50pm

This has been floating around Facebook.

Shows a teacher with a rifle and a bunch of kids, presumeably in Israel.

141 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:59:50pm
142 Tigger2  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 1:59:57pm

re: #35 Sol Berdinowitz

Again: the NRA argues that "guns don't kill, people do!"

Which I can begin to accept to a degree.

But why do they think that the mere presence of guns in schools is suddenly going to radiate an aura of protection?

Guns can only protect people in public places if they are wielded by a trained, experienced professional with steady nerves, quick reflexes and a very sound sense of judgement.

Are these to become part of the standard skills set for schoolteachers and administrators?

And even that person is going to do no good if the attacker has AR-15 or AK with mutable high capacity clips, armor piercing bullets and body armor, that person would just walk through a guard.

143 Destro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:01:06pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

So we've shifted from talking about Star Trek to talking about Jericho now?

/

From the book of John Mellencamp....

144 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:01:59pm

re: #113 Lidane

Talking about mental health is such bullshit. They're using it as a distraction so that no one talks about guns.

Well, they are using it as a bullshit argument, but the overall health system in the U.S. is part of the problem (including resources in schools to identify and help these kids early on).

145 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:03:09pm

At some level most of the righties probably know that the idea of arming teachers is crazy and unworkable. They are out of ideas and grasping at these pitiful straws to protect their holy right to possess a steel and plastic dildo.

146 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:03:10pm

re: #138 Coracle

Belief in evolution is often taken by the religious right as a broad proxy for secularism and general faithless/godlessness, the neanderthals like Fischer believe that there is a direct correlation between that and these kinds of massacres.

The truth is the opposite.

Image: wpid-Photo-Jul-22-2012-1201-AM.jpg

Interesting correlation. There's also another graph posted in the comments:

Image: ZZ60161971.jpg

147 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:05:09pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

That woman has done a huge disservice to her 'cause' by publicizing her son that way. The kid is only 13, he has a right to privacy. Now he'll be branded a potential murdering freak the rest of his days, even if his behavioral problems resolve.

148 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:05:35pm

re: #145 Shiplord Kirel

At some level most of the righties probably know that the idea of arming teachers is crazy and unworkable. They are out of ideas and grasping at these pitiful straws to protect their holy right to possess a steel and plastic dildo.

Let's be even more fair: a very specific shape and form of steel and plastic dildo.

149 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:06:25pm

re: #146 Charles Johnson

Interesting correlation. There's also another graph posted in the comments:

Image: ZZ60161971.jpg

What is it with the Baltic states?

150 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:08:55pm

re: #140 Kronocide

This has been floating around Facebook.

Shows a teacher with a rifle and a bunch of kids, presumeably in Israel.

As IF the security concerns of the U.S. & Israel are even remotely comparable. Gawd, people can be so effing stupid.

151 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:10:00pm

re: #147 Obdicut

That woman has done a huge disservice to her 'cause' by publicizing her son that way. The kid is only 13, he has a right to privacy. Now he'll be branded a potential murdering freak the rest of his days, even if his behavioral problems resolve.

I agree, and the woman who wrote it has also written some extremely inappropriate things about her other children as well, on her blog.

Want the Truth Behind "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother"? Read Her Blog. | Sarah Kendzior

152 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:10:10pm
153 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:10:54pm

re: #150 CuriousLurker

As IF the security concerns of the U.S. & Israel were even remotely comparable. Gawd, people can be so effing stupid.

Obviously Israel doesn't have enough God.

Wait, what?

154 A Mom Anon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:11:22pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

I can understand her fear,her terror,even though my son is not at all violent nor does he buy into all that macho nonsense about guns and being a tough guy. If anything my kid is too gentle of a spirit, he could barely fight back when he was attacked in a middle school bathroom because he didn't want someone to be hurt like he was being hurt.

But as a mom to a kid who has a long road of struggles ahead of him, I REALLY object to her violation of his privacy like this. I also object to the concept of autistic people being like the Columbine killers or the others named in her article. My heart breaks for her, it really does, the amount of help available for the mentally ill in this country is so sorely lacking it's criminal. It should not be difficult to get the help needed. Just going to a therapist or admission to a hospital means nothing if the help isn't specific to the disorder. We are woefully behind and we have GOT to catch up.

155 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:12:09pm

re: #141 Targetpractice

Writer of ‘I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother’ Blog Post Criticized as Unfit Mother with Own History of Violent Tendencies, Mental Illness [UPDATE]

A woman who identified herself, and thus her child, putting a photo of him in there as she discusses his personal problems. This woman is nuts and has done horrendous damage to her child.

156 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:14:21pm

re: #133 uncah91

Sir and/or Madame, this is the Internet and we have a god-given right to talk past each other and get more and more frustrated that we're completely failing to communicate when in fact we are probably in agreement.

157 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:14:31pm

re: #134 Amory Blaine

It's bad. They have combined religion with some kind of Randian-fuck the poor ideology.

Which is proof they've never bothered to read Ayn Rand.

Hilariously, religious belief + Ayn Rand = LaVeyan Satanism. I wonder if anyone has pointed that out to the modern RWNJs.

158 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:16:06pm

Mr. Fisher,
If only Jesus would have kept a security team He wouldn't have been crucified. Jesus cried out why hath you abandoned me?
I suggest you take this up with God about God in classrooms and lots of guns there. I'm sure if He really talks to you, You aren't going to like the answer.

159 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:16:15pm

I saw that post "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" when it came out, and to be honest it creeped me out. Saw a lot of people linking to it, but I did not like it.

160 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:21:34pm

re: #159 Charles Johnson

I saw that post "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" when it came out, and to be honest it creeped me out. Saw a lot of people linking to it, but I did not like it.

I appreciated her description of what her day can be like and lack of help available to her. Everyone needs to feel safe in their home, and the only option she has is to call 911 and have him arrested when he acts-out. That is just wrong. No one should live in a private hell like she does.

I've see a lot of complaints about privacy, the parent's and the child's. I think there is a fine line between privacy and secrets. If we can't network with friends and neighbors about depression, anxiety, addiction and psychosis the way we do about alzheimers, heart disease and diabetes, how can we get the help we need? Maybe it's more of a female communication thing.

If my story can help someone, my friends know they can talk about it to anyone. Give them my phone number whatever. I can't see change happening any other way.

161 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:22:21pm

re: #156 erik_t

Sir and/or Madame, this is the Internet and we have a god-given right to talk past each other and get more and more frustrated that we're completely failing to communicate when in fact we are probably in agreement.

//Allow me to respond to something completely different.

162 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:23:12pm

re: #160 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Her story wasn't really about getting help.

Her story was mostly about her.

There is a big difference.

163 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:23:47pm

the NRA, Brian Fischer and Victoria Jackson need to accept that humans are humans. They are going to violent, and they are going to make babies. We can do what we can to prevent that without infringing on rights. No one needs a semi-automatic weapon and we aren't going to bring on the Rapture by teaching Evolution or Reproductive Biology.

164 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:24:24pm

Have You Noticed That White Dudes Keep Mass Murdering People?

When anyone who isn't a white and relatively well-off man strides into a public place and guns down innocent civilians, we attack his race and/or religious beliefs before we bury his victims in the ground. But when yet another privileged white guy storms into a school or movie theater and kills dozens of people, we assume there's something wrong with his brain instead of wondering whether his murderous rage has anything to do with good ol' American macho entitlement. Are we ready to talk about it yet? Let's.

165 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:24:30pm

re: #162 researchok

Her story wasn't really about getting help.

Her story was mostly about her.

There is a big difference.

And I appreciated hearing it. I had no idea parents (at least in her state) had so few options.

166 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:24:48pm

gotta go

167 A Mom Anon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:26:03pm

re: #159 Charles Johnson

My first response was empathy. It is difficult to get the right kind of help, if you have no money or any decent healthcare coverage, you will fall through the cracks without an advocate and help.

But then after I finished reading the essay, I got mad at the mom for the flagrant violation of her son's privacy. I would argue that it's her job to protect him, even if he scares her. It's not at all difficult to write under a pen name, nor is it hard to change a couple details to protect privacy. At best it's challenging and heartbreaking to raise a kid with any kind of disability or serious health issue, mental or physical. At worst, well, I don't want to think about that. At the very least she owes her son a huge apology.

168 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:26:41pm

Morgan Freeman shooting statement is fake, says rep

The Disinformation Age is upon us. I'm starting to get to the point where I"m thinking of reducing my FB list of friends to only the closest friends and family. As much as I like seeing old friends and acquaintances get a little older, fatter, happier, and have their kids, the idiocy is starting to wear on me.

169 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:26:50pm

re: #165 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Even so, the question remains- what was served by her publikly discussing the details of her son's condition?

I suspect if you wanted to talk with others about the matter you would not find it necessary to use this situation as a platform or violate privacy.

170 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:28:07pm

So, it appears that the media has now decided that Adam Lanza was "mentally ill." Did I miss something or was this actually established somewhere? I've seen articles that describe him as having Asperger's Syndrome, but that's not the same thing as "mental illness."

It seems to me that this label of "mentally ill" is being put on him right now just because he did something so evil that people can't understand it in any other way except to make the killer an "other," someone not like them. Mentally ill.

But I don't believe it's right to say that committing horrible crimes is an automatic indicator of mental illness. Human beings can and do choose to commit evil acts without being crazy.

171 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:28:25pm

re: #160 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Imagine being the kid, and reading that your mother thinks you're going to go and massacre a bunch of children one day. Imagine that.

I can't think of a better way to actually drive a kid to go murder than what she's done.

172 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:30:18pm

re: #165 Holidays are Family Fun Time

And I appreciated hearing it. I had no idea parents (at least in her state) had so few options.

See, that's where her whole train of thought derailed, because Nancy Lanza had the money and resources to get Adam help, and from all information so far, chose not and even yanked him out of school when the system began to think there was something deeper to his behavior than just being socially awkward. By the time she was about ready to admit something was up, he was already over 18 and there would be no real way to get him help without involuntarily having him committed.

173 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:30:50pm

re: #171 Obdicut

Imagine being the kid, and reading that your mother thinks you're going to go and massacre a bunch of children one day. Imagine that.

I can't think of a better way to actually drive a kid to go murder than what she's done.

And by identifying him on the Internet, she has set this kid up to be hurt badly. How are his classmates and teachers going to be treating him now? What happens in a few very short years when he wants to get a job?

174 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:31:23pm

And when human beings who live in America choose to commit evil acts, they can get their hands on a Bushmaster AR-15.

175 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:31:28pm

re: #170 Charles Johnson

Mentally ill can cover a broad range, too. I definitely had PTSD, arguably still have it. Does that mean if I decide that some group of people have wronged me and go and shoot them all I'll be described as 'mentally ill'? What if I'm just a selfish, cruel asshole?

What's weird is this used to be the position that was mocked as the touchy-feely leftists position, that criminals were just crazy. It used to be the 'right wing' that insisted on the reality of evil.

176 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:31:36pm

re: #162 researchok

Her story wasn't really about getting help.

Her story was mostly about her.

There is a big difference.

Some bloggers blog to express their feelings and try to work through their issues.

My own reflective thought on Ms. Long's piece:

There are some people who truly do need to be institutionalized medium to long-term. Her son may be one of them. Some people really have problems large enough that they need to be kept in a controlled environment until they can get better, if they can (for a few cannot). And frankly, Americans need to make ourselves willing to fund that care, either via insurance or via taxes.

Will that stop all mass murders? No, but it'll stop some of them and it might reduce the amount of pain and woe that a serious mental illness can cause. Independent of any action on guns, we ought to do it.

177 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:32:08pm

I Got My Free Stuff Today!

Ever since Obama won re-election various spittle spewing blabberjabbers on the right have been hollering about how his supporters voted for more free stuff. Well, I have news for all of them. I voted for Obama and……………… my free stuff came in the mail just this very morning!

I got a Che’ Guevara T-shirt and matching beret’, a map of Kenya, copies of both the Quran and the Communist Manifesto, and a really nice ACORN keychain and pen/pencil set.

Sweeeeeeet!

178 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:32:18pm

re: #170 Charles Johnson

So, it appears that the media has now decided that Adam Lanza was "mentally ill." Did I miss something or was this actually established somewhere? I've seen articles that describe him as having Asperger's Syndrome, but that's not the same thing as "mental illness."

It seems to me that this label of "mentally ill" is being put on him right now just because he did something so evil that people can't understand it in any other way except to make the killer an "other," someone not like them. Mentally ill.

But I don't believe it's right to say that committing horrible crimes is an automatic indicator of mental illness. Human beings can and do choose to commit evil acts without being crazy.

3-5% of all crimes in this country are committed by the mentally ill, yet whenever there's a mass shooting, the media immediately starts asking everybody who knew the shooter "Was there anything 'different' about him?" And if you ask enough people, you're going to get people who say "Yeah, he was real quiet."

179 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:32:46pm

How is it a mentally healthy person kills 20 children?

180 Lidane  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:32:48pm

re: #159 Charles Johnson

I saw that post "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" when it came out, and to be honest it creeped me out. Saw a lot of people linking to it, but I did not like it.

That Woman Is Not Adam Lanza’s Mother, and She’s Distracting Us From the Real Issue

181 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:33:09pm

re: #170 Charles Johnson

For some people, mental illness is a placeholder to explain what happened so they can rationalize it. For others, it's a placeholder to rationalize their worldview to others.

For the latter, that placeholder is meant to exist in perpetuity.

182 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:33:28pm

Even if we take their argument on face value, that G-d doesn't go where he's not wanted, then we have to assume that they believe G-d punishes children for the behavior of their parents. Surely, he can't be blaming the kids for (for example) taking the "10 commandments" out of the schools, etc.

183 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:33:55pm

re: #172 Targetpractice

See, that's where her whole train of thought derailed, because Nancy Lanza had the money and resources to get Adam help, and from all information so far, chose not and even yanked him out of school when the system began to think there was something deeper to his behavior than just being socially awkward. By the time she was about ready to admit something was up, he was already over 18 and there would be no real way to get him help without involuntarily having him committed.

To quote the final part of the article TP posted:

Relatives, friends, and acquaintances have come forward since Friday's tragedy to describe Lanza's real mother Nancy as a gun-loving survivalist who feared the imminent collapse of the world economy and home-schooled her troubled, autistic son and "battled" with Newtown's public school system.

Whoever Liza Long is, she is not Nancy Lanza.

184 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:34:50pm

re: #60 Varek Raith

THERE.
ARE.
FOUR.
LIGHTS!

Fischer and Huckabee at Derpagra.

185 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:34:56pm

re: #181 Kronocide

For some people, mental illness is a placeholder to explain what happened so they can rationalize it. For others, it's a placeholder to rationalize their worldview to others.

For the latter, that placeholder is meant to exist in perpetuity.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell, we feel a need to rationalize such behavior, which we're taught from childhood is not something a "sane" person does, by saying that the gunman had to have "insane." It's especially easy when they're dead, making interviewing them and testing them impossible.

186 calochortus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:35:02pm

re: #179 Political Atheist

How is it a mentally healthy person kills 20 children?

I updinged you because that's what I keep coming back to, but I do realize that "mental illness" has a specific definition that doesn't really apply here.

187 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:35:27pm

re: #159 Charles Johnson

I saw that post "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" when it came out, and to be honest it creeped me out. Saw a lot of people linking to it, but I did not like it.

Here's why I don't like it.

It's lazy pseudo-logic to take her experiences and extrapolate them onto mass shooters and their families. Sorry, but even if she's writing with every best intention in the world that remains the case. If taken at face value, the post describes conduct disorder...which is the pediatric precursor to antisocial personality disorder. Guess what we don't find consistently as a feature of mass shooters? So the entire premise is a false correlation.

Honestly--and this is more out on a limb--there's two other interrelated things that make me skeptical. The first is that her blog has never touched on this subject before...but maybe that's just her filtering her experience. But prior to this she's griped about her son in "normal" terms.

The second is her description of "treatment" which a hazy and vague to the point of making me think we're reading hyperbole. Threats and violence of the kind she describes, if a consistent non-contexualized trend, mean conduct disorder. Period. No vague wishy-washy "I get a bunch of diagnoses, but no therapy works." If the violent behavior had some kind of arc of incidence--a trauma, a disruption, then there'd be talk of depression, anxiety, misplaced anger, et cetera...but we're not presented with that. If the diagnosis is anything other than conduct disorder, her post is hyperbolic and incredibly harmful to her son, both settling a damning stigma on him.

But all the technical stuff aside, she's inserted herself into the tragedy of others. She's eliciting pity for her situation, and pleading for understanding of her situation by fabricating a connection to a larger tragedy. It really doesn't matter if the versimilitude is real or fake, it's just bad fucking form to sponge of an event like Newtown.

188 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:35:42pm

Adam Lanza had no history of violence at all, by the way. How would better mental health care have helped in this situation? He wasn't aggressive, had no police record or any other indicators that he would do something like this.

189 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:35:50pm

re: #179 Political Atheist

How is it a mentally healthy person kills 20 children?

Do you not think people can choose to be evil? Do you think that all the Nazis were just crazy? All the people that gunned down Jews? Everyone in Rwanda all went insane? The Sandanistas and the Contras-- just cases of mental illness? Hamas are all paranoid schizophrenics?

Evil exists. People can use free will and decided to to terrible, unconscionable things.

190 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:36:08pm

re: #177 Amory Blaine

That person got ripped off. I got all that stuff, PLUS an Obamaphone, PLUS 6 different voter registration cards with different names and details, PLUS a year's supply of RU-486, PLUS a thick stack of $100 bills with a note that said they were taken directly from the paychecks of blue-collar tea partiers.

Maybe they'll get the rest of their packet in a second shipment.

191 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:36:51pm

re: #190 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Good for you, but all I got was a bill!

192 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:37:47pm

re: #190 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

All I got was a lousy t-shirt. :(

193 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:38:39pm

re: #191 ReamWorks SKG

Good for you, but all I got was a bill!

The trick is, don't pay it. That will prove your dedication to freeloading, and rather than go to a collection agency, that's when your Free Stuff From The Government will kick in and all your goodies will arrive.

194 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:39:10pm

And for that matter, how do we know that he wasn't already receiving good mental health care? Apparently the husband's alimony payments were over $200,000 a year, and you can get pretty good health care with that kind of income.

195 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:39:26pm

re: #179 Political Atheist

A person may suffer from mental illness(es) and yet can easily distinguish between right and wrong.

Most fall into that category.

Yes, there are psychotic, certain varieties of schizophrenics and others who may indeed be detached from the real world but even then, very few of them commit these kinds of profound violence.

Most of the atrocities we see today- anywhere- are committed by 'normal people' who have been swept up into a cause or dysfunctional belief system. They are fully functional, they have families and are otherwise normal.

Think of Nazi Germany.

The banality of evil, as they say.

196 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:40:56pm

re: #184 BongCrodny

Fischer and Huckabee at Derpagra.

Jones, his mouth shitting.

197 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:41:03pm

Just because mental illness didn't contribute to the accident tragedy, doesn't mean the right wing shouldn't be pressured to support better mental health care for Americans. They are the ones bringing it up.

198 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:41:38pm

re: #182 ReamWorks SKG

Even if we take their argument on face value, that G-d doesn't go where he's not wanted, then we have to assume that they believe G-d punishes children for the behavior of their parents. Surely, he can't be blaming the kids for (for example) taking the "10 commandments" out of the schools, etc.

Exodus 20:5 -

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

199 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:41:53pm

re: #188 Charles Johnson

Adam Lanza had no history of violence at all, by the way. How would better mental health care have helped in this situation? He wasn't aggressive, had no police record or any other indicators that he would do something like this.

Hell, even if he was ill, there's no indication he was always that way. For all we know, he was a perfectly normal kid whose mother screwed his head up when she yanked him out of public school and home-schooled him at some of the most important years in a teens life.

200 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:43:41pm

re: #179 Political Atheist

How is it a mentally healthy person kills 20 children?

Do you think the Ingush & Chechen Islamist separatist militants responsible for the siege that led to the deaths of 186 children in Beslan were mentally ill? Are drug traffickers who murder & mutilate the families of those who betray them mentally ill? Are all terrorists & criminals mentally ill because they do things that no "mentally healthy" person would even consider?

201 makeitstop  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:43:44pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

Related: Thinking the Unthinkable

Please read the whole post before replying.

That woman has a whole set of problems of her own - not the least of which is outing her own damn kid on the internet as a mentally unstable person.

What kind of mother does that to her own kids?

202 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:44:03pm

re: #186 calochortus

If whatever makes a man willing to kill like that is not a mental illness in the books, psychology has some important work to do. IMHO.

Reducing the number of killers should go hand in hand with making it more difficult for them to be killers. I don't think I'm distracting anyone from anything worthwhile to assert this.

I pay no attention to those trying to make a distraction. I try to deny them that via deliberately ignoring them. Their media/meme/partisan resonance means nothing to me as far as analyzing how to keep this from happening again goes. To me everything relevant is on the table.

Distortions & deliberate distractions are highly relevant to understanding who the liars, extreme advocates and partisans are. They are utterly irrelevant to the actual facts and circumstances of the shoot.

203 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:44:06pm

re: #197 Amory Blaine

Just because mental illness didn't contribute to the accident tragedy, doesn't mean the right wing shouldn't be pressured to support better mental health care for Americans. They are the ones bringing it up.

Sorry about that.

204 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:45:13pm

re: #198 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Exodus 20:5 -

I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

But He loves you!

205 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:45:14pm

re: #199 Targetpractice

Hell, even if he was ill, there's no indication he was always that way. For all we know, he was a perfectly normal kid whose mother screwed his head up when she yanked him out of public school and home-schooled him at some of the most important years in a teens life.

Since she was the first one he took out, he doesn't seem to have much appreciated her sacrifices on his behalf.

206 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:46:04pm

re: #200 CuriousLurker

Do you think the Ingush & Chechen Islamist separatist militants responsible for the siege that led to the deaths of 186 children in Beslan were mentally ill? Are drug traffickers who murder & mutilate the families of those who betray them mentally ill? Are all terrorists & criminals mentally ill because they do things that no "mentally healthy" person would even consider?

I think being a totalitarian fanatic is not mentally healthy.

207 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:46:07pm

re: #194 Charles Johnson

And for that matter, how do we know that he wasn't already receiving good mental health care? Apparently the husband's alimony payments were over $200,000 a year, and you can get pretty good health care with that kind of income.

Broadly speaking, are social safety net is far less supportive than in most developed western countries. We tend stigmatize those who need mental health, preferring that our mentally ill be homeless so we can blame them for being "lazy".

Yes, the right wing is using this to distract from the need for appropriate gun legislation, but let's not pretend we don't need better mental health care, health care period, in this country.

208 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:47:02pm

re: #207 uncah91

Yes, the right wing is using this to distract from the need for appropriate gun legislation, but let's not pretend we don't need better mental health care, health care period, in this country.

Good thing I'm not doing that.

209 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:47:10pm

re: #203 Amory Blaine

Sorry about that.

Not a problem, but use the pencil and change the original post, too. You've come clean, so its not evasion or hiding.

210 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:47:24pm

re: #205 allegro

Since she was the first one he took out, he doesn't seem to have much appreciated her sacrifices on his behalf.

Considering the story that she was telling the friend last week that she was "losing him," I've begun to wonder if what set him off was her trying to get him to seek help.

211 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:49:26pm

re: #206 Dark_Falcon

I think being a totalitarian fanatic is not mentally healthy.

I agree, but I think there's a difference between being mentally unhealthy and being clinically insane (reasearchok, correct me if I'm wrong).

I know for a fact that there's a legal difference wrt to responsibility for one's actions.

212 allegro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:49:36pm

re: #210 Targetpractice

Considering the story that she was telling the friend last week that she was "losing him," I've begun to wonder if what set him off was her trying to get him to seek help.

Has the brother spoken publicly about any of this? He would probably be in the best position to shed light on things if he was willing to (emphasis on willing - he should not be hounded).

213 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:49:40pm

re: #202 Political Atheist

Mentally ill people make up a tiny percentage of the violent crime in this country.

If what you're saying is that you think anyone who kills a sufficiently large number of people must be mentally ill because you're saying "killing X number of people" is a diagnostic criteria for insanity, that's not really that helpful. For one thing, it's only something diagnosable in retrospect.

People can choose to do evil things out of anger and revenge. To call it insanity is to deny free choice. Humans are capable of great personal sacrifice, bravery, and selflessness. They are also capable of great spitefulness, cowardice, and selfishness. It's who we are.

214 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:50:16pm

re: #200 CuriousLurker

Are all terrorists & criminals mentally ill because they do things that no "mentally healthy" person would even consider?

I suppose one can reasonably hold this position, so long as they recognize that their definition of 'mentally ill' is now no longer predictive, but rather descriptive.

Makes it a not very useful definition, of course.

215 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:50:49pm

re: #204 BongCrodny

But He loves you!

Under some circumstances I would enjoy the irony of the fact that those words about "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children" are from the very 10 Commandments that right wingers want posted in all our schools.

But not this week.

216 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:52:24pm

re: #202 Political Atheist

If whatever makes a man willing to kill like that is not a mental illness in the books, psychology has some important work to do. IMHO

Was every single soldier in Nazi Germany's Einsatzgruppen "mentally ill?" Because the atrocities they committed far exceeded the Newtown massacre - and they did it every single day, for months on end, and sent postcards to their families showing them doing it.

I just think it's a facile and intellectually lazy cop-out to automatically equate evil deeds with mental illness.

217 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:52:59pm

Senator Daniel Inouye has died. Soon, with John Kerry going over to State the Senate Democrats will have lost 77 years of Senate Seniority. Carry on.

218 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:53:23pm

re: #200 CuriousLurker

Do you think the Ingush & Chechen Islamist separatist militants responsible for the siege that led to the deaths of 186 children in Beslan were mentally ill? Are drug traffickers who murder & mutilate the families of those who betray them mentally ill? Are all terrorists & criminals mentally ill because they do things that no "mentally healthy" person would even consider?

Something separates a mass killer of children from most of the rest of us. Total up all the serial and mass killers and see what % of the human population that is. The fact we have so little idea of what that something is points a red arrow at knowledge needed.

Again, hand in hand with reducing the ability given new gun regulation goes the idea of reducing the number of killers. Flip this over-Who would argue that is a bad idea as long as that work is in parallel with reducing the means?

Why not both?

219 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:53:49pm

re: #217 Gus

Senator Daniel Inouye has died. Soon, with John Kerry going over to State the Senate Democrats will have lost 77 years of Senate Seniority. Carry on.

Old people die, and it sucks, but it's what our frail forms do. I'd like to thank Senator Inouye for his, what... seven decades of service to our country.

220 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:54:17pm

re: #208 Charles Johnson

Isn't it legitimate to consider why we have so many mass killing attempts [in the U.S., I mean]?

Although, given that one reasonable theory is that each mass killing spawns multiple other mass killings, by feeding into the delusional fantasies of the killer, maybe the reason we have so many is that they are so deadly, and therefore get coverage.

In other words, maybe the guns really are causing the outbreak, by simply facilitating the killing, and therefore the media coverage.

221 EPR-radar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:54:38pm

re: #216 Charles Johnson

Was every single soldier in Nazi Germany's Einsatzgruppen "mentally ill?" Because the atrocities they committed far exceeded the Newtown massacre - and they did it every single day, for months on end, and sent postcards to their families showing them doing it.

I just think it's a facile and intellectually lazy cop-out to automatically equate evil deeds with mental illness.

Agreed. I'd add that conflating evil and mental illness is extremely harmful, because it increases the already high levels of stigmatization of mental illness that we already have.

222 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:55:21pm

re: #215 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Under some circumstances I would enjoy the irony of the fact that those words about "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children" are from the very 10 Commandments that right wingers want posted in all our schools.

But not this week.

I was also thinking that if the God of the Bible is willing to punish the descendants of those who have affronted him, isn't that the complete opposite of "free will?"

In other words, if you're going to punish a child for the "sins of the father," how can it logically follow that that child has free will?

223 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:55:24pm

re: #218 Political Atheist

The mentally ill are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of it.

Increasing people's fear of the mentally ill is not a good thing. They are already far too ostracized.

224 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:56:15pm

re: #220 uncah91

maybe the reason we have so many is that they are so deadly, and therefore get coverage.

Certainly there is criticism of this exact problem in the literature.

I find it to be at least moderately persuasive as one of a number of contributing factors.

225 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:57:32pm

re: #217 Gus

Senator Daniel Inouye has died. Soon, with John Kerry going over to State the Senate Democrats will have lost 77 years of Senate Seniority. Carry on.

To his memory and the memory of all those who fought to save the world from tyranny:

226 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:58:22pm

re: #222 BongCrodny

I was also thinking that if the God of the Bible is willing to punish the descendants of those who have affronted him, isn't that the complete opposite of "free will?"

In other words, if you're going to punish a child for the "sins of the father," how can it logically follow that that child has free will?

They have the free will to accept the punishment foisted upon them with good grace, or to rail against it. Essentially the choice God gave Job when he let Satan test his faith.

( /// ?)

227 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:58:55pm

re: #216 Charles Johnson

Was every single soldier in Nazi Germany's Einsatzgruppen "mentally ill?" Because the atrocities they committed far exceeded the Newtown massacre - and they did it every single day, for months on end, and sent postcards to their families showing them doing it.

I just think it's a facile and intellectually lazy cop-out to automatically equate evil deeds with mental illness.

The military has spent centuries teaching people how to be willing and able to kill. "Brainwashed" is the answer there. Our own soldiers difficulty returning to normal life also backs this up. Don't think I'm saying he is innocent by reason of insanity. That is a whole other standard.

228 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 2:59:05pm

re: #216 Charles Johnson

Was every single soldier in Nazi Germany's Einsatzgruppen "mentally ill?" Because the atrocities they committed far exceeded the Newtown massacre - and they did it every single day, for months on end, and sent postcards to their families showing them doing it.

I just think it's a facile and intellectually lazy cop-out to automatically equate evil deeds with mental illness.

I don't think Brievik or McVeigh were mentally ill, nor was Hitler. They were purely evil.

229 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:00:08pm
230 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:00:27pm

re: #223 Obdicut

So we can't discuss researching what makes a killer? Not with you on that one.

231 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:00:30pm

Last Tweet.

232 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:01:10pm

re: #227 Political Atheist

That's letting the Nazis off really, really, really, really easy. You really are saying they were all brainwashed, those who murdered Jews and dropped the bodies into ditches? No culpability for them? They were brainwashed, couldn't help themselves?

If not, what the fuck do you mean by brainwashed?

233 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:02:00pm

re: #216 Charles Johnson

Was every single soldier in Nazi Germany's Einsatzgruppen "mentally ill?" Because the atrocities they committed far exceeded the Newtown massacre - and they did it every single day, for months on end, and sent postcards to their families showing them doing it.

I just think it's a facile and intellectually lazy cop-out to automatically equate evil deeds with mental illness.

I'd argue that what happened in Newtown (as far as I understand it) wasn't evil. Lanza does not appear to have been trying to accomplish anything that makes any sense.

234 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:02:03pm

re: #230 Political Atheist

So we can't discuss researching what makes a killer? Not with you on that one.

There are many paths to being a killer, including a sane person choosing to kill out of their own free will.

235 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:02:25pm

re: #231 Gus

Daniel Inouye was a war hero, and a really genuine unpretentious guy. He'll be missed.

236 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:03:05pm

re: #231 Gus

[Embedded content]

Last Tweet.

Dies a titan. One of the greatest of his generation. And largely unknown by the general populace.

237 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:03:06pm

re: #228 Kronocide

I don't think Brievik or McVeigh were mentally ill, nor was Hitler. They were purely evil.

Brevik? Maybe he was.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Two teams of court-appointed psychiatrists examined Breivik prior to his trial; in the first report Breivik was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia,[22] and a second evaluation was commissioned following widespread criticism of the first report.[23] The second psychiatric evaluation was published one week before the trial, concluding that Breivik was not psychotic during the attacks nor during the evaluation;[24] he was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.[25] His trial began on 16 April 2012, and closing arguments were held on 22 June.[26]

238 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:03:18pm

re: #231 Gus

[Embedded content]

Last Tweet.

Oh wow. Inouye is deeply respected throughout the state, if not revered.

239 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:03:22pm

re: #233 uncah91

I'd argue that what happened in Newtown (as far as I understand it) wasn't evil. Lanza does not appear to have been trying to accomplish anything that makes any sense.

A bit hard to determine considering he's assumed room temperature, isn't it?

240 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:03:22pm

re: #218 Political Atheist

Something separates a mass killer of children from most of the rest of us. Total up all the serial and mass killers and see what % of the human population that is. The fact we have so little idea of what that something is points a red arrow at knowledge needed.

Again, hand in hand with reducing the ability given new gun regulation goes the idea of reducing the number of killers. Flip this over-Who would argue that is a bad idea as long as that work is in parallel with reducing the means?

Why not both?

I have no problem with both, but that's not where the right is headed with this, they're trying to deflect.

If they're serious, then the GOP should insist that the Dems immediately sit down with them and begin working to come up with proposed legislation & a budget that will make better mental health care & diagnosis a reality. Presumably, the gun manufacturers & NRA would happily support this and even be willing to contribute generously to such a great & much needed effort.

Do I need to mention that I won't be holding my breath? //

241 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:04:46pm

How Daniel Inouye won the Medal of Honor: Daniel Inouye

On April 21, 1945, Inouye was grievously wounded while leading an assault on a heavily-defended ridge near San Terenzo in Tuscany, Italy called Colle Musatello. The ridge served as a strongpoint along the strip of German fortifications known as the Gothic Line, which represented the last and most dogged line of German defensive works in Italy. As he led his platoon in a flanking maneuver, three German machine guns opened fire from covered positions just 40 yards away, pinning his men to the ground. Inouye stood up to attack and was shot in the stomach; ignoring his wound, he proceeded to attack and destroy the first machine gun nest with hand grenades and fire from his Thompson submachine gun. After being informed of the severity of his wound by his platoon sergeant, he refused treatment and rallied his men for an attack on the second machine gun position, which he also successfully destroyed before collapsing from blood loss.

As his squad distracted the third machine gunner, Inouye crawled toward the final bunker, eventually drawing within 10 yards. As he raised himself up and cocked his arm to throw his last grenade into the fighting position, a German inside fired a rifle grenade that struck him on the right elbow, severing most of his arm and leaving his own primed grenade reflexively "clenched in a fist that suddenly didn't belong to me anymore".[13] Inouye's horrified soldiers moved to his aid, but he shouted for them to keep back out of fear his severed fist would involuntarily relax and drop the grenade. As the German inside the bunker reloaded his rifle, Inouye pried the live grenade from his useless right hand and transferred it to his left. As the German aimed his rifle to finish him off, Inouye tossed the grenade off-hand into the bunker and destroyed it. He stumbled to his feet and continued forward, silencing the last German resistance with a one-handed burst from his Thompson before being wounded in the leg and tumbling unconscious to the bottom of the ridge. When he awoke to see the concerned men of his platoon hovering over him, his only comment before being carried away was to gruffly order them to return to their positions, since, as he pointed out, "nobody called off the war!"[14]

The remainder of Inouye's mutilated right arm was later amputated at a field hospital without proper anesthesia, as he had been given too much morphine at an aid station and it was feared any more would lower his blood pressure enough to kill him.

242 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:05:17pm

re: #240 CuriousLurker

The only action the GOP intends to take is the necessary few weeks of hand wringing. As their staunchest fans have already explained under the various slimy rocks of the internet, 20 dead kids is just the price we have to pay for freedom.

243 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:05:33pm

re: #151 Charles Johnson

I agree, and the woman who wrote it has also written some extremely inappropriate things about her other children as well, on her blog.

Want the Truth Behind "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother"? Read Her Blog. | Sarah Kendzior

What a freaking attention queen. If her kids are crazy, they got it from her.//

244 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:06:01pm

re: #238 Kronocide

Oh wow. Inouye is deeply respected throughout the state, if not revered.

Image: gjon-mili-sen-daniel-inouye-questioning-witness-at-watergate-hearings-others-in-bkgrd.jpg

245 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:06:15pm

re: #237 Political Atheist

Brevik? Maybe he was.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Two teams of court-appointed psychiatrists examined Breivik prior to his trial; in the first report Breivik was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia,[22] and a second evaluation was commissioned following widespread criticism of the first report.[23] The second psychiatric evaluation was published one week before the trial, concluding that Breivik was not psychotic during the attacks nor during the evaluation;[24] he was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.[25] His trial began on 16 April 2012, and closing arguments were held on 22 June.[26]

Yeah, in Brevik's case I'd say he is simply evil. He has chosen to walk the path of the damned.

246 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:06:55pm

re: #232 Obdicut

That's letting the Nazis off really, really, really, really easy. You really are saying they were all brainwashed, those who murdered Jews and dropped the bodies into ditches? No culpability for them? They were brainwashed, couldn't help themselves?

If not, what the fuck do you mean by brainwashed?

I meant trained and coerced and forced to do the deed. Propaganda writ large. Absent Nazi propaganda and military/SS training, how many of those soldiers do you think would have been fine with atrocities? The same number or none or just a few?

What harm is done with research as i suggest?

247 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:07:09pm

This new normal is hard to grapple with. Flow of thoughts is helpful and I don't think anyone here is interested in bashing or otherwise causing harm to the mentally ill.

248 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:08:18pm

re: #216 Charles Johnson

Was every single soldier in Nazi Germany's Einsatzgruppen "mentally ill?" Because the atrocities they committed far exceeded the Newtown massacre - and they did it every single day, for months on end, and sent postcards to their families showing them doing it.

I just think it's a facile and intellectually lazy cop-out to automatically equate evil deeds with mental illness.

The SS and the Einsatzgruppen were especially selected for their cruelty and utter lack of compassion. Ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers who showed the tiniest spark of humanity were sent off to die at Stalingrad.

249 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:09:03pm

re: #239 Targetpractice

A bit hard to determine considering he's assumed room temperature, isn't it?

well, among other things, that is why I added the caveat.

But what possible end could Lanza have been hoping to achieve? Brievik wanted to reduce the ranks of those he considered the enemy, and successfully targeted a specific cohort. McVeigh wanted to incite revolution.

But guys like Lanza and Loughner? They appear to have just stepped out into space. There is no philosophy guiding there actions, just fever dreams.

250 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:09:08pm

re: #237 Political Atheist

Brevik? Maybe he was.

He was mentally ill? He had issues for sure... but mental illness?

The term seems pretty nebulous.

251 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:09:41pm

re: #241 Charles Johnson

How Daniel Inouye won the Medal of Honor: Daniel Inouye

252 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:09:55pm

re: #246 Political Atheist

I meant trained and coerced and forced to do the deed. Propaganda writ large. Absent Nazi propaganda and military/SS training, how many of those soldiers do you think would have been fine with atrocities? The same number or none or just a few?

What harm is done with research as i suggest?

Ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers were not sent to commit the genocides, because they couldn't handle it.

253 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:10:13pm

re: #241 Charles Johnson

How Daniel Inouye won the Medal of Honor: Daniel Inouye

"Nobody called off the war!" in that context has to rank in the top 20 list of the most ferocious utterances of all time.

254 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:11:19pm

If the only unifying thing in defining 'mental illness' is people doing horrible shit, we might as well call them purple potatoes for all the use of such a contorted concept.

Like the rest of the kinds of illness, can we maybe stick with things that have well-defined and moderately repeatable signs, symptoms and, when we're able, treatments?

At the moment we might as well diagnose Lanza with Bad Humours.

255 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:12:12pm

re: #246 Political Atheist

I meant trained and coerced and forced to do the deed.

They were not coerced and they were not forced, no. I cannot really believe you are forgiving them to that extent.

They made their choices.

Propaganda writ large. Absent Nazi propaganda and military/SS training, how many of those soldiers do you think would have been fine with atrocities? The same number or none or just a few?

Um, going by the history of Europe and people being okay with mass murders of Jews up to that point: The same number. The Nazis didn't invent antisemitism in Europe, or mass slaughter of Jews. They didn't write Luther's savage antisemitic rants that formed a large backbone of European protestantism.

What harm is done with research as i suggest?

Your goal-- to find what makes a killer-- is a phantom. There are many paths to being a killer, including to freely choose of your own will to be a killer. Sure, some people will kill because they're schitzophrenic-- but again, more people will attack schizophrenics than be attacked by them. the mentally ill have more to fear from normal people than we do of them.

Of course people research to try to find warning signs of people who might kill. But there is never going to be some way, absent total violation of privacy rights, of really predicting that.

What 'research' do you want done, exactly? Cite something specific.

256 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:12:24pm

re: #202 Political Atheist

If whatever makes a man willing to kill like that is not a mental illness in the books, psychology has some important work to do. IMHO.

Reducing the number of killers should go hand in hand with making it more difficult for them to be killers. I don't think I'm distracting anyone from anything worthwhile to assert this.

I pay no attention to those trying to make a distraction. I try to deny them that via deliberately ignoring them. Their media/meme/partisan resonance means nothing to me as far as analyzing how to keep this from happening again goes. To me everything relevant is on the table.

Distortions & deliberate distractions are highly relevant to understanding who the liars, extreme advocates and partisans are. They are utterly irrelevant to the actual facts and circumstances of the shoot.

Yeah. Here's the deal: know how the are terms people unacquainted with firearms use that (a) show they don't know what they're talking about and (b) make people with greater familiarity cringe?

Mentally Ill is the equivalent in psychology/psychiatry. It's a loose generality. The different being that guns are an assembly of standardized parts with a clear set of features and the human mind is a giant black box in which nucleotides and fatty goo creates impossibly convoluted networks of sensory data and impressions...each of which is unique such that our vague notions of neuroanatomy periodical get blasted out the water.

There is no magic bullet on violence coming from craziness. "Sane" and "Mentally Ill" people do horrific shit for terrible illogical reasons, but it doesn't come from mood disorder or delusional thinking; it comes from lack of empathy, lack of critical thinking, the elevation of ego and identity over sense of connectedness, the need to maintain a tribal identity by excising the "other."

257 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:13:12pm

re: #252 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers were not sent to commit the genocides, because they couldn't handle it.

Ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers committed plenty of mass murders themselves.

Breakdown in morale happened after a few hundred times they'd executed men, women, and children up close.

It took awhile, though.

258 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:13:26pm

re: #240 CuriousLurker

I have no problem with both, but that's not where the right is headed with this, they're trying to deflect.

If they're serious, then the GOP should insist that the Dems immediately sit down with them and begin working to come up with proposed legislation & a budget that will make better mental health care & diagnosis a reality. Presumably, the gun manufacturers & NRA would happily support this and even be willing to contribute generously to such a great & much needed effort.

Do I need to mention that I won't be holding my breath? //

CL,
Try to understand that I'm speaking for myself. What I think would help. I do not speak for or support any distractions. Nor do I support the far right. Call me crazy but I can't easily be persuaded that this research is a bad idea. With the caveat it does not interfere with legislation.

I don't burden the left leaning lizards with assumptions of far left extreme ideology behind what they have to say. Not even on those rare occaisions they they agree like "get us out of Iraq".

By and large that works both ways. Sometimes right leaners get burdened with the likes of Fischer and some assumption they agree with him. Well not me.

259 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:13:34pm

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

Basically calling them a bunch of slackers. Hardcore.

260 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:14:26pm

re: #256 The Ghost of a Flea

Exactly. I have PTSD resulting from my rape as a child. Am I "mentally ill"? Should people be worried I'm going to flip out and kill someone? After all, people with PTSD can flip out. And I'm not in therapy.

261 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:14:46pm

re: #258 Political Atheist

What research. When you say 'this research', what research are you talking about?

262 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:14:50pm

re: #252 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers were not sent to commit the genocides, because they couldn't handle it.

But they aided in their commission in many cases, even if they didn't pull the trigger. And a great many knew what was going on was mass murder. One mustn't absolve the Wehrmacht, for even ordinary soldiers routinely gunned down civilians in reprisal actions for attacks on German troops.

You know this already, Alouette, and I'm not saying it to be critical of you in any way. But I felt it needed to be said.

263 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:16:20pm

re: #249 uncah91

well, among other things, that is why I added the caveat.

But what possible end could Lanza have been hoping to achieve? Brievik wanted to reduce the ranks of those he considered the enemy, and successfully targeted a specific cohort. McVeigh wanted to incite revolution.

But guys like Lanza and Loughner? They appear to have just stepped out into space. There is no philosophy guiding there actions, just fever dreams.

Prior to Brevik being caught, nobody could make sense of his actions either. Laughner has actually been tested and found mentally ill. Adam Lanza was neither caught nor tested. Guessing as to his motives and rational is academic at best.

264 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:16:32pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

But they aided in their commission in many cases, even if they didn't pull the trigger. And a great many knew what was going on was mass murder. One mustn't absolve the Wehrmacht, for even ordinary soldiers routinely gunned down civilians in reprisal actions for attacks on German troops.

You know this already, Alouette, and I'm not saying it to be critical of you in any way. But I felt it needed to be said.

I made the distinction between the SS/Einsatzgruppen and the Wehrmacht because the former for especially singled out for their ability to commit atrocities 24/7 and enjoy it.

265 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:17:08pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Here's a list of Wehrmacht units implicated in war crimes, taken from Axis History Forums.

Wehrmacht
Sonderbeauftragter des OKW 078, 208, 287
Wehrwirtschaftsinspektion Landw. Sonderführer Kopaigorod 800
Wehrwirtschaftsinspektion Landw. Sonderführer Tschudnow 445

Heer
- 7.Panzerdivision 481
- 78.Infanteriedivision 520
- 82.Armeekorps 492
- 133.Division 338
- 404.Infanteriedivision 408
- 407.Infanteriedivision 109
- Artillerieregiment 128 174
- Artillerieregiment 336 430
- Einheit Herold 178, 253
- Einsatzbataillon des Kampfkommandanten Kassel 195
- Eisenbahnpionierkompanie 622
- Ersatzbataillon 87 044
- Ersatzdivision 466 285
- Feldgendarmerie 280.Infanteriedivision 190
- Feldgendarmerie Feldkommandantur 810 715
- Feldgendarmerie Leinfelden 136
- Festungsbaustoffkolonne 007
- Flakartillerie-Schulen Braunschweig 168, 263
- Flakbatterie 4/625 248
- Gefangenenkompanie 157
- Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 507 809
- Genesenden-Ersatz-Bataillon Feldherrnhalle 004, 015
- Grenadierregiment Kreta 288
- Heeresgruppe G (Oberbefehlshaber) 060
- Heeresgruppe Mitte (Oberbefehlshaber) 452
- Heeresstandortverwaltung
Düren 027
Lüdenscheid 027
- Heeresstreife Düsseldorf 026, 112, 216
- Infanterieregiment 8 618
- Infanterieregiment 691 398, 429
- Infanterieregiment 727 565
- Jägerregiment 28 665
- Kampfgruppe Düsseldorf-Mitte 125
- Kampfkommandant
Brückenkopf Oppenheim-Nierstein 170, 371
Ingelheim 020, 169, 344
Kassel 198, 317
Lohr 105
Marktheidenfeld 085
Paderborn 364
Schwäbisch Gmünd 038
- Kommandanturstab der Auffanglinie IV 210
- Kommandoführer eines Häftlingszuges 197
- Kraftfahrpark Mannheim 203
- Kraftfahrzeuginstandsetzungskompanie 174 265
- Landesschützenbataillon 343
- Landesschützenbataillon 783 683
- Landesschützenbataillon Diez 133
- Nachrichtenregiment 598 459
- Offiziersreserve Regensburg 726
- Ortskommandant Hechtsheim 070
- Ortskommandant Paulusbrunn 305
- Panzergrenadierregiment 29 914
- Panzergrenadierregiment 156 568
- Panzerjagdeinheit des Generalkommandos XI.AK 077
- Panzerkampfgruppe XIII 083
- Panzernachrichtenregiment 4 574
- Sanitätskompanie 1560 028
- Standortältester Ochsenfurt 255
- Turk-Völkische Führerschule 536
- Wehrmachtsstreifendienst Berlin 035
- Werferregiment 22 078, 208, 287, 426
- Einheit unbekannt 052, 108, 952

Luftwaffe
- 6.Fluganwärterkompanie 639
- 36.Volksgrenadierdivision 348
- Abwicklungskommando eines Luftgaues 058
- Fliegerhorst
Borstel 087
Elbing 306
- Gruppenkommandeur eines Nachtjagdgeschwaders 242
- Inspekteur des ostvölkischen Personals der Luftwaffe Lehrstab (Flieg) 548
- Kampfkommandant Ansbach 010, 029
- Kommandant einer Fallschirmjägereinheit 280
- Kriegsberichtereinheit 210
- Lufttransportführer 3 Kampffliegergeschwader 4 008, 031/1
- Verbandsführerschule in Katterbach 472

Marine
- Blockadebrecher 'Rio Grande' 623
- Bordflakeinheit des Tankers 'Adria' 013
- Fahnenflüchtiger 012
- Marine-Schützen-Rgt.112 410
- Marineattaché Botschaft Tokio 623


WEHRMACHT
Abwehr 1101
Einheit unbekannt 1758

Wehrmacht - Heer
8.Jägerdivision 1310
141.Baubtl. 1081
339.Infanteriedivision 1072
923.Rgt. Strafbtl.12 2072

Artillerie-Einheit 1303
Artillerieregiment 328 1105
Artillerieregiment II/94 1314

Baubtl.257 1155
Bewährungsbtl.500 1108
Btl. Nachtigall 1087
Div. Brandenburg 1148
Einheit Bergmann 1087

Feldgendarmerie 1103, 1112, 1187, 1406, 1484
Feldgendarmerie Abt.221 2068
Feldgendarmerie Abt.5/41 2071
Feldgendarmerie Abt.b (mot.) 88 1071
Feldgendarmerie Abt.b (mot.) 415 1028, 1033, 1040

Festungsbtl. 1228

Flakeinheit 802 1113

Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 570 1018
Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 580 1019, 1022, 1034
Geheime Feldpolizei Gruppe 721 1025

I.Panzerjagdkompanie Schwalbe 1342

Inf.Ersatz- und Ausbildungsbtl.71 1243
Inf.Rgt.2 2066
Inf.Rgt.89 1130
Inf.Rgt.172 1140
Inf.Rgt.185 13.Komp. 1177
Inf.Rgt.202 1123
Inf.Rgt.385 1454

266 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:18:14pm

re: #8 darthstar

Yes, yes they are.

re: #9 wrenchwench

Pathological.

Darth, why are you reading wrenchench's mind and pre-posting your answer?

267 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:19:18pm

Continued:

nfanterieeinheit 1299

Kampfgruppe Ludwig in Zschaiten 1707
Kfz.-Instandsetzungskomp. 1122

Landesschützenbtl. 1146, 1247
Landesschützenbtl. Zwickau 1366
Landesschützenbtl.397 1456
Landesschützenbtl.650 1112
Landesschützenbtl.821 1093

Nebelwerferrgt.52 1069
Reservelazarett III in Krakau 1689
Sicherungsbtl.335 1088
Stabskompanie Wallmeisterschule in Sternberg/Neumark 1409
Strafbtl.999 1085, 1277, 1375, 1575
Einheit unbekannt 1110, 1114, 1126, 1134, 1143, 1192, 1232, 1456, 1497, 1582, 1631, 1639, 1755, 2055

Wehrmacht - Luftwaffe
Fallschirmjägerkompanie 1751
Feldgendarmerie der 2.Luftwaffenfelddivision 1021
Flakeinheit 1185
Panzergrenadierdivision Hermann Göring 1255
Einheit unbekannt 1186, 1226, 1234, 1349

Wehrmacht - Marine
Bordflakeinheit des Tankers 'Adria' 1211
Hafenschutzbatterie in Korsör 1667
Kristiansand 1490
Oslo 1543
Sonderabteilung Hela 1244, 1251
Sonderabteilung Stralsund 1251


But don't worry, they were just all 'brainwashed' or forced or coerced, it's not like they had a choice.

268 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:19:25pm

The guy in our town who was certainly flipped out and killed two people, and then was shot by the swat team; well it was no subtle thing he had or was going through, you could see it coming. By the same token, he could have been helped by Laura's law. Now he is dead too.

269 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:19:43pm

re: #260 Obdicut

Exactly. I have PTSD resulting from my rape as a child. Am I "mentally ill"? Should people be worried I'm going to flip out and kill someone? After all, people with PTSD can flip out. And I'm not in therapy.

We all know you've got a good head on your shoulders, Obdi. You don't need extensive help now, and that's a good thing. I'd want to set things up so that help is available if you ever end up needing it again, that's all. But you're not a threat to others, you makes work harder at being better people. And I thank you for it.

270 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:20:31pm

re: #264 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

The Einsatzgruppen were the worst of them in my opinion. Their job was just to scour the countryside and slaughter men, women and children indiscriminately, especially but not limited to Jews, in horrific mass executions and in one-on-one murders. They were an army of berserk serial killers with state approval.

I have a book about them somewhere that I never finished because I couldn't read it any more.

271 EPR-radar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:20:56pm

re: #254 erik_t

If the only unifying thing in defining 'mental illness' is people doing horrible shit, we might as well call them purple potatoes for all the use of such a contorted concept.

Like the rest of the kinds of illness, can we maybe stick with things that have well-defined and moderately repeatable signs, symptoms and, when we're able, treatments?

At the moment we might as well diagnose Lanza with Bad Humours.

Agreed. It may also be useful to consider what might suffice for an insanity defense at trial. Delusions (e.g., a psychotic break) or inability to distinguish right from wrong might be defenses. The personality disorders (sociopathy, narcissism etc.) would not appear to provide an insanity defense. E.g., a sociopath is typically aware of right and wrong, but just doesn't care. That story should not impress the jury.

272 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:21:16pm

re: #255 Obdicut

Your goal-- to find what makes a killer-- is a phantom.
What 'research' do you want done, exactly? Cite something specific.

Science if chock full of data that was once a phantom. Thought to be impossible to discover. The human mind & brain is a tough subject. I get that. I did cite a specific area. You just don't approve of it. I make a case for that research. Reducing the number of killers.

What is your best reason to say we should never explore that avenue?

273 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:21:50pm

re: #198 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Exodus 20:5 -

Have you ever read the next line?

"and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments."

These statements are generally taken to mean that G-d patience exceeds his anger by several orders of magnitude.

In any event, Christians don't believe in any of this.

275 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:23:10pm

re: #270 Charles Johnson

Highly recommended:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

276 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:24:19pm

re: #260 Obdicut

Exactly. I have PTSD resulting from my rape as a child. Am I "mentally ill"? Should people be worried I'm going to flip out and kill someone? After all, people with PTSD can flip out. And I'm not in therapy.

But we agree that some mentally ill people (degree and kind of illness matters of course) must be excluded from gun purchases. Right?

277 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:24:52pm

re: #270 Charles Johnson

The Einsatzgruppen were the worst of them in my opinion. Their job was just to scour the countryside and slaughter men, women and children indiscriminately, especially but not limited to Jews, in horrific mass executions and in one-on-one murders. They were an army of berserk serial killers with state approval.

I have a book about them somewhere that I never finished because I couldn't read it any more.

A very good book on the matters of the war crimes of World War II:

Moral Combat: Good and Evil in World War II by Michael Burleigh. It makes for very painful reading, but it really does cut through the tanglements and makes the facts clear.

278 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:25:13pm

I think what the nazis did was worse in scale, but at core it is what man has been doing throughout most of our history. Identify the "others" and subjugate or kill them. We recognize this now as evil, but it isn't really all that different from what NZ tribesman did to the next village over. (Not picking on NZ, it's the same throughout history.)

279 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:25:54pm

This was an interesting read along those lines also.

Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust

280 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:26:26pm

re: #272 Political Atheist

Science if chock full of data that was once a phantom. Thought to be impossible to discover. The human mind & brain is a tough subject. I get that. I did cite a specific area. You just don't approve of it. I make a case for that research. Reducing the number of killers.

That you think that is a specific area "find out what makes people kill" is just fucking mindboggling. Slightly less mindboggling than learning you believe the Nazis who slaughtered Jews were just brainwashed, trained, coerced, and forced, but still fucking mindboggling.

That is not specific. Science doesn't work like that. You can't find 'what makes people happy' or 'what makes people kill' because we're complex as all fuck, there's a thousand paths, and there's free will.

You keep saying I'm against 'this research'. I have no fucking clue what research you're talking about. I'm entirely for research into helping the mentally ill. I am not for funding someone who's idea of a scentific inquiry is "I'm going to find out what makes killers kill" when we already have sufficient evidence to say "There are very large numbers of reasons why people kill, with no unifying theme or mental disorder."

281 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:28:16pm

re: #274 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

This is my granddaughter that President Obama is holding!

That is good to see. Thanks for the photo, I needed it.

282 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:29:10pm

What a cute kid!

283 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:29:23pm

re: #276 Political Atheist

But we agree that some mentally ill people (degree and kind of illness matters of course) must be excluded from gun purchases. Right?

Sure. That's about ten zillion miles away from "What makes someone a killer". We wouldn't allow a paranoid schizophrenic to own a handgun, but a paranoid schizophrenic still has a very low chance of murdering someone-- lower then their own chance of being murdered.

You're talking about two completely unrelated things: disallowing people we know to be severely mentally ill in some way that impairs their ability to use a weapon responsibly, and 'figuring out what makes someone kill'.

284 A Mom Anon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:29:41pm

re: #281 Dark_Falcon

That is one seriously adorable baby right there.

285 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:29:52pm

re: #273 ReamWorks SKG

In any event, Christians don't believe in any of this.

Some don't. Some do.

286 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:30:50pm

re: #270 Charles Johnson

If you want to rebreak your heart, read The Drowned and the Saved.

287 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:30:58pm

re: #278 uncah91

I what the nazis did was worse in scale, but at core it is what man has been doing throughout most of our history. Identify the "others" and subjugate or kill them. We recognize this now as evil, but it isn't really all that different from what NZ tribesman did to the next village over. (Not picking on NZ, it's the same throughout history.)

Hence my point about Lanza, it's hard as hell to tell what he was thinking when he went into that school. Considering info about his mother trickling in (admittedly from secondary sources) painting her as not all that right in the head herself, it's hard to say what he was thinking when he went to that school. He may very well have been in the mindset of Brevik, thinking those kids were the "other" he'd been taught to fear or despise and chose to kill them.

288 Tigger2005  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:32:20pm

re: #241 Charles Johnson

How Daniel Inouye won the Medal of Honor: Daniel Inouye

Wow, I just discovered a new medical procedure. It's called "war hero anecdote castration." I'm now a soprano.

Move over up there, Joshua Chamberlain.

289 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:38:37pm

re: #258 Political Atheist

CL,
Try to understand that I'm speaking for myself. What I think would help. I do not speak for or support any distractions. Nor do I support the far right. Call me crazy but I can't easily be persuaded that this research is a bad idea. With the caveat it does not interfere with legislation.

I don't burden the left leaning lizards with assumptions of far left extreme ideology behind what they have to say. Not even on those rare occaisions they they agree like "get us out of Iraq".

By and large that works both ways. Sometimes right leaners get burdened with the likes of Fischer and some assumption they agree with him. Well not me.

I'm aware of that and I'm not burdening you with wingnut ideology, but the discussion around here has been about exactly that (as it relates to deflecting to anything BUT guns).

As I've said before, the 66 people currently viewing this thread aren't the only ones who are (or who will be) reading it, so when you make a statement such as the one you made in your #179 it needs qualification, IMO. Had you started out with your #218, I wouldn't have said anything. Capisce?

It's nothing personal. I don't take it exception to things people point out that I may find uncomfortable, obvious, redundant, etc. when we're discussing Islam & Muslims in relation to acts of terrorism unless someone begins broad-brushing or implying that I personally am acting as an apologist, or if they assign views to me that I don't hold. I don't think I did that with you... or did I?

290 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:38:40pm

An actual ad. Proving that gun manufacturers know their projected customers well:

Image: BushmasterAd-Maxim_0.jpg

291 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:39:04pm

re: #264 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I made the distinction between the SS/Einsatzgruppen and the Wehrmacht because the former for especially singled out for their ability to commit atrocities 24/7 and enjoy it.

*gag, shudder*

292 EPR-radar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:40:19pm

re: #288 Tigger2005

Wow, I just discovered a new medical procedure. It's called "war hero anecdote castration." I'm now a soprano.

Move over up there, Joshua Chamberlain.

Indeed. Reading Wikipedia further, Inouye originally was awarded a DSC for this. It was upgraded to the Medal of Honor many years later (in the Clinton years).

293 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:40:43pm

re: #288 Tigger2005

This is one of the greatest things about Inoyue, in my estimation:

In February 2009, a bill was filed in the Philippine House of Representatives by Rep. Antonio Diaz seeking to confer honorary Filipino citizenship on Inouye, Senators Ted Stevens and Daniel Akaka and Representative Bob Filner, for their role in securing the passage of benefits for Filipino World War II veterans.

And yeah, I know Ted Stevens is in there, but dammit, he was in the right on this too. Inoyue did more than almost anyone else to lobby for Fillipino veterans to get benefits. His reasoning-- as was my grandfathers-- was that they had followed American plans of battle, under American generals, and we spent their blood along with ours.

Also, given the animus between Fillipinos and Japanese, so honoring Inoyue was a very significant gesture.

294 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:41:18pm
295 RadicalModerate  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:41:24pm

I think that the fact that Fischer only disagreed with the selected targets in Connecticut and not particularly the act itself, says volumes more to his morality than any statement that I could make. Not only has he given ideological cover to terrorists like Eric Rudolph, Scott Roeder, and Anders Breivik, he has no problem with the commission of violent felonies to achieve his demented goals.
American Family Association Spokesman Fischer: Child Kidnapper Is ‘Obeying God Rather Than Man’

296 A Mom Anon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:42:24pm

re: #283 Obdicut

We're such complex creatures that there's never going to be one pat answer as to why or what causes a person to do awful things or what kinds of things cause mental illnesses of all kinds. What works or applies to one person simply won't apply to all. The concept of warehousing people who need help is a danger we need to avoid in all this too. We're looking at decades of work, we need to shore up the infrastructure that's in place and find ways to get people the help they need. No parent should have to face putting a child in jail just for a HOPE of a chance they'll get help. Dear God, that's the LAST thing that should be happening,but it's sadly the only thing available in many parts of the country.

I still believe that we have some serious work to do as a culture too. We simply have to stop this fetish with violence and redefine what the hell "manly"means,or just do away with the concept of that altogether. We're destroying each other with this shit. Our schools are also not fostering a sense of community among our children either, especially in middle and high schools. IMO, 2000 kids in a building isn't conducive to keeping bullies in check and it sure as hell isn't helping the kids who need it most. A kid has to have a serious disability or behavioral issue in order to get the most basic of services, and that rarely includes mental health issues. I don't know what the answers are, but we're missing some big things here and we need to figure out ways to stop the suffering.

297 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:42:27pm

re: #287 Targetpractice

Hence my point about Lanza, it's hard as hell to tell what he was thinking when he went into that school. Considering info about his mother trickling in (admittedly from secondary sources) painting her as not all that right in the head herself, it's hard to say what he was thinking when he went to that school. He may very well have been in the mindset of Brevik, thinking those kids were the "other" he'd been taught to fear or despise and chose to kill them.

Mmmm, I admit you have a point, but the odds aren't great that he had any rationale that was connected to reality

298 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:43:11pm

And by the way, I think we just Godwinned this thread all the way out.

299 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:43:29pm

re: #246 Political Atheist

I meant trained and coerced and forced to do the deed. Propaganda writ large. Absent Nazi propaganda and military/SS training, how many of those soldiers do you think would have been fine with atrocities? The same number or none or just a few?

What harm is done with research as i suggest?

A lot of research has been done, and is being done, on the subject of aggression and violence.

The problem is, is doesn't work the way you're proposing. Attempts to find an arc of traits that make a killer stand out from a sampling of "normal" people have so far failed. Magic bullets keep being asserted--the XYY chromotype, the HB/BP drop under stress--and overturned. Even attempts to create a "profile" of specific types of killers--serial killers, spree shooters--haven't worked very well. Hell the entire realm of "serial killer profilling" has gotten savagely debunked in the last decade.

The best that been achieved is a sort of "probably these features are present" list...with the proviso that the same bundle of traits/symptoms are also held by millions of people who aren't spree shooters/serial bombers/et cetera. Brutalization theory, for example, goes a long way to explaining the environment and social forces that shape a hardened killer, and does a great job explaining wartime atrocities, but it can't claim perfect accuracy because there's so many individuals that don't become hardened killers.

The best we got in what I'd call intersectional effects: combine a menu of biological traits, environmental conditions, and social learning and you're more likely to get a killer...but maybe not. Case in point: spree killers. In theory they're depressed, white, male, have an external locus of controls, and a few other things. We can make those traits "stick" retroactively to a lot of spree killers. The bad news? Hundreds of thousands of depressed white men have pretty much the same profile and cradle-to-grave aren't violent monsters. We haven't achieved predictive value.

And study of the subject can't advance just because there's money and interest. "More data" means that first a crime has to happen and them maybe you can collect data from investigative organizations and maybe interview people. It means trying to winnow validity from anecdotal evidence, truth from recollections colored by society's existing stereotypes and tropes about these crimes.

300 erik_t  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:43:42pm

re: #298 Charles Johnson

And by the way, I think we just Godwinned this thread all the way out.

As far as Godwinnable subjects go, mass murder is pretty high on the list...

301 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:44:18pm

re: #296 A Mom Anon

and redefine what the hell "manly"means, ...


Only the strong can be gentle.

302 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:47:27pm

re: #299 The Ghost of a Flea

Damn, you always give good answers. Do you have any idea how many of your comments I've saved?

I want to be you when I grow up. ;)

303 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:48:36pm

re: #289 CuriousLurker

When you referenced the RWNJ's, that made it a good time to separate myself from them. I took no offense at all. My 179 is just an honest question. Just trying to point to that something that keeps most of us from killing, and not others. Sometimes brevity is not my friend. So #218

Be well CL. I'm moving on with some work, I made my case as well as I know how. Those 66 logged will hopefully take it as intended. My bottom line-Leave no stone unturned in options for keeping this from happening again. Obdi may be right no amount of research will help. I'm just too reluctant to give that avenue up yet. Dings or not.

Later Lizards

304 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:49:56pm

re: #299 The Ghost of a Flea

Hell the entire realm of "serial killer profilling" has gotten savagely debunked in the last decade.

You mean that "Criminal Minds" is just....a television show?

But damn, Shemar Moore is the hottest man on TV!

305 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:51:01pm

re: #299 The Ghost of a Flea

Or as I've seen it said: when it happens we can make a pretty good guess who to ignore, but we haven't got diddly to say "he's gonna..."

306 Achilles Tang  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:52:37pm

Fischer and his ilk "believe" (religiously speaking, without thought) in the 2nd amendment, but in the first only as long as they agree with whatever is said.


I did an experiment and signed up with weird nut daily three times and responded, without 4 letter words, or death threats, to some of the more obscenely amoral comments there, made in the name of an equally obscene god. You know, stuff like calling for death to homosexuals, praising their petty god for staying out of things like this massacre because "it" was principled, and of course the bit about the guns being all between us and the Taliban, or more commonly, Hitler.

I was promptly banned and all posts deleted very quickly. The American Taliban is alive and well in Fischer and Co.

307 CuriousLurker  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:52:48pm

re: #304 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

You mean that "Criminal Minds" is just....a television show?

But damn, Shemar Moore is the hottest man on TV!

Seconded! *swoons*

308 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:57:00pm

My son said that is not his daughter in Obama's arms! It totally looks like her.

309 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:57:16pm

re: #298 Charles Johnson

And by the way, I think we just Godwinned this thread all the way out.

I'd say we haven't. We haven't thrown around accusations, we've been discussing the matter of what drives people to evil. Given the high level of historical knowledge at LGF, it was inevitable that the crimes of the Nazis would be discussed as part of such a larger discussion.

310 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 3:59:45pm

I think Daniel Inouye might literally be the most badass Senator the US has ever had.

311 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:01:19pm

re: #308 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Infants are kind of like Volkswagens beetles.

You see one...

//

312 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:02:36pm

I was pwn3d. She has a doppelganger.

313 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:03:28pm

re: #311 researchok

Infants are kind of like Volkswagens beetles.

You see one...

//

Allouette can randomly claim most grand-baby pictures and be right a decent percent of the time.

314 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:03:30pm

The eating habits at my house are atrocious. Hedonism!

315 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:05:58pm
316 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:06:21pm

re: #310 ProMayaLiberal

I think Daniel Inouye might literally be the most badass Senator the US has ever had.

Tough competition for that title though.

317 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:06:32pm

Speaking of Godwin, some NRA propaganda:
Our government employees are the real Nazis:

Image: BlackCladGubmintThugsSeizeGrannysPistol.jpg

Original NRA brochure (pdf link) available at the bottom of this article:
Blast From the Past: NRA Propaganda Anticipates Newtown

318 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:07:54pm

Please downding the picture of Obama with my grandbaby-impersonator.

319 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:08:32pm

BBL

320 Cinnabar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:10:11pm

re: #318 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Please downding the picture of Obama with my grandbaby-impersonator.

Half-done -- I removed my upding.

321 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:11:21pm

We lost one of our best senators.

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

Voted NO on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration.

Voted NO on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage.

Voted YES on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes.

Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping.

Voted YES on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation.

Voted YES on setting aside 10% of highway funds for minorities & women.

Voted NO on ending special funding for minority & women-owned business.

Voted NO on prohibiting same-sex marriage.

Voted YES on prohibiting job discrimination based on sexual orientation.

This part stuck out:

Faced anti-Japanese discrimination after WWII

[After he spent 20 months in hospitals recovering from war wounds fighting with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team in Europe], on a layover in Oakland, California , on his way back to Hawaii, he decided he wanted to get, as he puts it "all gussied up so when I got home Mama and Papa would see me in all my glory. I went into an Oakland barbershop--four empty chairs--and a barber comes up to me and wants to know if I'm Japanese. Keep in mind I'm in uniform with my medals and ribbons and a hook for an arm. I said, 'Well my father was born in Japan.' The barber replied, 'We don't cut Jap hair.' I was tempted to slash him with my hook," [from the arm he had lost in battle], "but then I thought about all the work the 442nd had done and I just said, 'I feel sorry for you,' and walked out. I went home without a haircut."

322 jytdog  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:18:37pm

Just want to note that although the video by Fischer is asking a question, "Comments are disabled for this video." on youtube. Not a real question. But what about these guys is real, other than their attention seeking?

323 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:19:04pm

re: #315 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Here she is.

Even cuter!

324 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:19:14pm

By the way, since the topic has been GUNZ GUNZ GUNZ for the past 3 days, in the interest of full disclosure I should say that I'm no longer a gun owner. I sold my almost new Mossberg back to the gun store a few months ago.

I bought it (and took some classes and fired it a few times just to be familiar with it) when I was being openly stalked and threatened on the Internet by neo-Nazi Bill White (who later went to prison), because he was inciting his followers on Overthrow.com to find my home address and my family's addresses and take 'direct action.' Never liked having it around.

325 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:21:15pm

re: #321 dragonath

We lost one of our best senators.

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

This part stuck out:

Image: ino0-011.jpg

326 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:26:56pm
327 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:29:50pm

re: #326 Gus

[Embedded content]

For the love of God........

She wants school kids emulating the Imperial Japanese Army.

328 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:31:09pm

re: #326 Gus

Holy crap.

Megan, go straight up to a parent and say that out loud.

IDIOT.

329 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:31:20pm

re: #327 Shiplord Kirel

For the love of God........

She wants school kids emulating the Imperial Japanese Army.

Flight 93.

330 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:31:52pm

re: #328 Stanghazi

Holy crap.

Megan, go straight up to a parent and say that out loud.

IDIOT.

Let's roll!

331 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:33:10pm

BANZAI!

332 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:33:29pm

re: #331 Shiplord Kirel

BANZAI!

Little tree!!

//

333 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:34:31pm

re: #332 Targetpractice

Little tree!!

//

Kittens!

334 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:34:43pm
335 EPR-radar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:35:05pm

re: #326 Gus

Well, McArdle is certainly consistent. Since any/all kind of government action is unthinkable to a libertarian, the only thing that is left is to suggest that the children of America be trained to mob rush armed assailants. Behold the glory of liberty in action.

Normal human beings might hesitate to express such a stupid point of view shortly after such a tragedy. However, Megan McArdle has no such inhibitions.

In response, I'd like to propose that she go off to Somalia and start engaging in machete duels as an expression of liberty.

336 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:35:07pm
337 uncah91  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:37:11pm

re: #326 Gus

Wow.

338 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:39:43pm
CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964

YEAS

Aiken
Allot
Anderson
Bartlett
Bayh
Beall
Boggs
Brewster
Burdick
Cannon
Carlson
Case
Church
Clark
Cooper
Cotton
Curtis
Dirksen
Dodd
Dominick
Douglas
Edmonson
Engle
Fong
Gruening
Hart
Hatke
Hickenlooper
Hruska
Humprey
Inouye
Jackson
Javits
Jordan
Keating
Kennedy
Kuchel
Lausche
Long
Magnuson
Mansfield
McCarthy
McGee
McGovern
McIntyre
McNamara
Metcalf
Miller
Monroney
Morse
Morton
Moss
Mundt
Muskie
Nelson
Neuberger
Pastore
Pearson
Pell
Prouty
Proxmire
Randolph
Ribicoff
Saltonstall
Scott
Smith
Symington
Williams
Williams
Yarborough
Young

Last of his generation.

339 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:42:01pm
340 Ian G.  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:42:16pm

RIP Senator Inoye. His war story is incredible, and his record in the Senate was exemplary. We just lost a great American.

341 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:42:29pm

I found this wingnut cartoon from 9/11

"If this was truly the 'Land of the Free'" is the caption of this breathtaking fail.

Teh Stupid! Then the hijackers would have had bazookas, not boxcutters!

342 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:43:07pm

She is going to be ridiculed rightly from here to eternity.

What a freaking idiot.

Didn't she marry some "smart" journo?

343 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:43:46pm

re: #341 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I found this wingnut cartoon from 9/11

"If this was truly the 'Land of the Free'" is the caption of this breathtaking fail.

Teh Stupid! Then the hijackers would have had bazookas, not boxcutters!

Because if the hijackers could have brought guns they wouldn't have brought guns either. Makes sense. //

344 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:44:21pm

re: #342 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

She is going to be ridiculed rightly from here to eternity.

What a freaking idiot.

Didn't she marry some "smart" journo?

How do these people get high-paying jobs as "pundits"?

345 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:44:33pm

re: #342 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

She is going to be ridiculed rightly from here to eternity.

What a freaking idiot.

Didn't she marry some "smart" journo?

No, absolutely not. Two peas in a pod:

Peter Suderman, an associate editor for the libertarian Reason magazine

346 Ian G.  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:49:02pm

Also, I hate that one of the first thoughts I had when I clicked on this thread was, "how long before some wingnut tweet/blog post comes along calling Inoye a fake American because he was a Democrat"?

347 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:49:49pm

re: #343 Gus

If they all fired, as they are configured in that cartoon, they all would have shot each other and everyone would be dead!

348 RadicalModerate  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:51:06pm

This mayor and Chief of Police are gonna get served with a federal lawsuit so fast that they won't see what hit them.

Armed task force to patrol streets

Stovall told the group of almost 40 residents that beginning in 2013, the department would deploy a new street crimes unit to high crime areas on foot to take back the streets.

"[Police are] going to be in SWAT gear and have AR-15s around their neck," Stovall said. "If you're out walking, we're going to stop you, ask why you're out walking, check for your ID."

Stovall said while some people may be offended by the actions of his department, they should not be.

"We're going to do it to everybody," he said. "Criminals don't like being talked to."

Gaskill backed Stovall's proposed actions during Thursday's town hall.

"They may not be doing anything but walking their dog," he said. "But they're going to have to prove it."

349 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:51:53pm

re: #346 Ian G.

Also, I hate that one of the first thoughts I had when I clicked on this thread was, "how long before some wingnut tweet/blog post comes along calling Inoye a fake American because he was a Democrat"?

I haven't checked, but I'd be willing to bet it took less than a minute after he died over at FR.

350 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:53:15pm

re: #326 Gus

[Embedded content]

O_o

Are you kidding me? You think gun control is impractical, so your plan is to turn the entire national population, including young children, into a standby suicide squad? Through private initiative, of course. It’s way more feasible than gun control!

^

351 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:53:47pm

re: #343 Gus

Because if the hijackers could have brought guns they wouldn't have brought guns either. Makes sense. //

They would have planned it differently. The passengers would have been dead before they moved on the pilots.

352 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:54:02pm

re: #348 RadicalModerate

Because people who are going to commit crimes carry an ID that says "Criminal"?

353 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:54:27pm

re: #341 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I found this wingnut cartoon from 9/11

"If this was truly the 'Land of the Free'" is the caption of this breathtaking fail.

Teh Stupid! Then the hijackers would have had bazookas, not boxcutters!

Facepalm.

354 EPR-radar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:54:52pm

re: #348 RadicalModerate

Police theater. Just what we need.

// dripping

355 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:55:10pm

re: #352 Obdicut

Because people who are going to commit crimes carry an ID that says "Criminal"?

Tattooed on their foreheads.

356 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:56:03pm
357 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:56:45pm

re: #338 dragonath

CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964

Lot of R's on that list.

Things change, don't they?

358 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:57:06pm

re: #170 Charles Johnson

So, it appears that the media has now decided that Adam Lanza was "mentally ill." Did I miss something or was this actually established somewhere? I've seen articles that describe him as having Asperger's Syndrome, but that's not the same thing as "mental illness."

It seems to me that this label of "mentally ill" is being put on him right now just because he did something so evil that people can't understand it in any other way except to make the killer an "other," someone not like them. Mentally ill.

But I don't believe it's right to say that committing horrible crimes is an automatic indicator of mental illness. Human beings can and do choose to commit evil acts without being crazy.


Aspergers falls under the Mental Disorders section of the DSM-IV code book, along with psychosis and Alcohol.

There seems to be a big black whole where society puts anything they consider ickky. They will do anything they can to keep themselves disassociated with it.
Its' very arbitrary.

We also have to remember that many will associate morals with one behavior and illness with another.

Having a disorder or illness is not immoral. There should be no stigma to either.

359 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:57:39pm

re: #170 Charles Johnson

So, it appears that the media has now decided that Adam Lanza was "mentally ill." Did I miss something or was this actually established somewhere? I've seen articles that describe him as having Asperger's Syndrome, but that's not the same thing as "mental illness."

It seems to me that this label of "mentally ill" is being put on him right now just because he did something so evil that people can't understand it in any other way except to make the killer an "other," someone not like them. Mentally ill.

But I don't believe it's right to say that committing horrible crimes is an automatic indicator of mental illness. Human beings can and do choose to commit evil acts without being crazy.

My lai. Fog of war.

360 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:57:44pm
361 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:58:12pm

re: #341 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I found this wingnut cartoon from 9/11

"If this was truly the 'Land of the Free'" is the caption of this breathtaking fail.

Teh Stupid! Then the hijackers would have had bazookas, not boxcutters!

All those weapons in a highly pressurized cabin.

What could go wrong?

362 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:58:44pm
363 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:59:36pm
364 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:00:26pm

re: #341 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I found this wingnut cartoon from 9/11

"If this was truly the 'Land of the Free'" is the caption of this breathtaking fail.

Teh Stupid! Then the hijackers would have had bazookas, not boxcutters!

Blast a hole through the walls, depressurize the cabin, kill everybody. Sounds like a well thought out plan.

Not.

365 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:01:06pm

re: #364 dragonath

Blast a hole through the walls, depressurize the cabin, kill everybody. Sounds like a well thought out plan.

Not.

Accidentally hit the pilots....

367 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:05:16pm

re: #361 BongCrodny

All those weapons in a highly pressurized cabin.

What could go wrong?

On construction since Lockerbie? Little holes.

368 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:06:29pm

re: #365 Varek Raith

Accidentally hit the pilots....

There goes the autopilot. There goes our ailerons. There goes our rudder. There goes our...

BOOM!

369 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:07:41pm

re: #360 Gus

#MeganMcArdleDefenseTips

Urban Pikmin can withstand gunfire better, so have them charge first

370 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:08:38pm

re: #367 austin_blue

What I wonder is what broad, spacious part of the plane these people are all standing in.

371 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:10:29pm

Sanity in freeperland? No, it can't be!

Certain wingnuts are going to some effort to point out that the .223 cartridge used by the Newtown killer is illegal, not powerful enough, for hunting big game in many states.
A typical specimen at Free Republic

.223 cannot even be used to hunt big game in Washington state (too small of a caliber)

We are now hearing 24/7 ad nauseum about how the AR-15 is practically a WMD according to the media.....yet in Washington state it is not even allowed for hunting because the caliber is too small to be considered ethical.
Information like this needs to get out there.

Note the first two responses:

223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids. What is your point?

It good to know its adequate for 6 year olds...geez

372 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:11:03pm

re: #370 Obdicut

What I wonder is what broad, spacious part of the plane these people are all standing in.

They're in a Guppy.

373 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:11:52pm

re: #368 Gus

There goes the autopilot. There goes our ailerons. There goes our rudder. There goes our...

BOOM!

Lost my radar.

A little more power now.

I'm out of fuel.

Right for lineup.

Lost a wing.

Doin' fine.

There goes the other one.

OK, Topper. Call the ball.

Touchin' down.

374 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:11:54pm

re: #366 Varek Raith

Gun Lobbyist: Americans Should Be ‘Prepared’ To Take On Elected Officials With Guns

You've got to really understand the 2nd Amendment:


To: ConservativeStatement

The second amendment was written so as to allow an armed population the ability to overthrow a government gone rogue..

with that in mind, any and every weapon our military possesses, we as citizens have not only the right, but the duty to possess...

this includes so called assault rifles, machine guns, grenades, mortar and cannon, tanks, armored personnel carriers, aircraft and even warships ( provided you can afford it )..

keep in mind that during the time of the revolution, our fledgling government LEASED warships and cannon from PRIVATE owners..

So, we had far greater freedoms under the king than we do now...

think about it....

22 posted on Mon 17 Dec 2012 01:20:33 PM CST by joe fonebone (The clueless... they walk among us, and they vote...)

375 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:12:22pm

re: #366 Varek Raith

The nut who made that comment should be arrested for incitement.

376 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:15:24pm

re: #371 Shiplord Kirel

Sanity in freeperland? No, it can't be!

Certain wingnuts are going to some effort to point out that the .223 cartridge used by the Newtown killer is illegal, not powerful enough, for hunting big game in many states.
A typical specimen at Free Republic

.223 cannot even be used to hunt big game in Washington state (too small of a caliber)

Note the first two responses:

Bozos. The .223 has more mass than an ordinary .22. It also has a far greater charge. Reagan was shot with one .22 and almost died.

377 darthstar  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:15:28pm
378 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:17:31pm

re: #376 Gus

Bozos. The .223 has more mass than an ordinary .22. It also has a far greater charge. Reagan was shot with one .22 and almost died.

Here's the difference.

Image: 22_penny_223-tfb.jpg

379 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:19:56pm

I think we are having a problem with terminology. And it's not good if we are going to move forward, as a country, and cooperate in this issue.

Sane and Insane are not medical or scientific terms.

Sane and Insane denote a moral aspect I'm not sure can be dealt with by government.

Same goes for Evil.

Illness and disorder are terms that are defined by medicine and can be dealt with by government.

IN comes the question of Free Will, on which our society and our government are based.

There has been a lot of debate on the subject. That's why we have put in place policy to determine if a person is legally able to be held responsible for their crimes due to mental (choose your term).

We don't know this kids diagnosis, we only know here-say. We can only look to past legal cases to know how it has been dealt with before.

We have a really, really good example of why we need to re-think a lot of things, including gun-control.

380 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:20:19pm

The .223 round is a military-style bullet - much more devastating and lethal than a typical handgun round.

381 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:20:56pm

Superduck Gay Threat

Homeschooling: legit!

382 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:21:17pm

re: #378 b_sharp

Here's the difference.

Image: 22_penny_223-tfb.jpg

Saw that. Robert Kennedy? .22

383 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:22:19pm

So, I had to see if that McArdle article was for real, and found quite possibly the stupidest comment I have ever seen:

Great article. However, you strangely avoid a very realistic, legal and practical way to make ourselves and our children safer. A method even Jeffery Goldberg (surprisingly) endorses. More guns. More guns in the hands of those most likely to use them wisely, for self defense and the defense of those in their care. You state that legal gun owners "...are vanishingly unlikely to commit a crime with it." Why not arm selected teachers, custodians and administrators (just like arming pilots after 9/11). Many would volunteer and, frankly, I much prefer the idea of the custodian shooting it out with a madman instead of my child "gang rushing" him.

It's only the custodian!

384 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:22:45pm

re: #352 Obdicut

Because people who are going to commit crimes carry an ID that says "Criminal"?

It's Stop and Frisk 2: We're totally doing this randomly (wink, wink) Bugaloo

385 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:23:09pm

Custodians. America's first line of defense. Mop Ninjas.

386 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:23:20pm

The ordinary .22 LR will kill a person stone dead, and often does.

387 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:24:12pm

Free class:

Introduction to Genetics and Evolution
Mohamed Noor

A whirlwind introduction to evolution and genetics, from basic principles to current applications, including how disease genes are mapped and how we leverage evolutionary concepts to aid humanity.

My brother the evolutionary geneticist says: 'Mohamed is the man!' so it must be good.

388 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:24:33pm

re: #380 Charles Johnson

Muzzle velocity for a .223 (3000-3600) is on the high end.
[Link: www.ballistics101.com...]

389 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:25:43pm

Never fear...Bill "Ted Baxter" O'Reilly has gotten to the bottom of what REALLY caused the Newtown tragedy:

(safe to click for guns nuts...naturally, it has nothing to do with guns)

Image: tedbaxterknows.jpg

390 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:25:51pm

re: #386 Shiplord Kirel

The ordinary .22 LR will kill a person stone dead, and often does.

If shot in the head, it rattles around inside the skull.
From what I've heard.

391 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:26:34pm

re: #389 bratwurst

Never fear...Bill "Ted Baxter" O'Reilly has gotten to the bottom of what REALLY caused the Newtown tragedy:

(safe to click for guns nuts...naturally, it has nothing to do with that)

Image: tedbaxterknows.jpg

You can't explain that!

392 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:27:11pm

re: #389 bratwurst

Never fear...Bill "Ted Baxter" O'Reilly has gotten to the bottom of what REALLY caused the Newtown tragedy:

(safe to click for guns nuts...naturally, it has nothing to do with that)

Image: tedbaxterknows.jpg

The Internetz, how does it work?

393 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:27:44pm

Because being angry, depressed and on the internet has long been known to spontaneously materialize flying bullets.

394 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:27:48pm

.223 vs ballistic gel:

395 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:28:30pm

re: #393 Varek Raith

Because being angry, depressed and on the internet has long been known to spontaneously materialize flying bullets.

Out of yer butt.

396 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:28:39pm

re: #380 Charles Johnson

The .223 round is a military-style bullet - much more devastating and lethal than a typical handgun round.

There are, believe it or not, handguns chambered in .223 / 5.56mm (and other center-fire rifle calibers).

I think this is a symptom of something.

397 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:28:44pm

re: #394 Decatur Deb

.223 vs ballistic gel:

[Embedded content]

Well fuck that shit.

398 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:28:53pm

re: #385 dragonath

Custodians. America's first line of defense. Mop Ninjas.

The custodian at my school got busted for selling coke to the kids.

Nice guy though.

399 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:29:21pm

re: #389 bratwurst

O'Reilly:

Gravity, moon, stars, tides: can't explain that.

Mass murder: can explain that.

Objective!

400 dragonath  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:30:01pm

re: #391 Varek Raith

As long as O'Reilly is throwing around baseless assumptions, I have a theory that Fox News viewers are more apt to be influenced by violent media because they can't understand the difference between reality and fantasy.

401 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:30:17pm

re: #394 Decatur Deb

.223 vs ballistic gel:

[Embedded content]

This is your brain on ........... bullets.

402 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:30:38pm

re: #389 bratwurst

I'm surprised Ted told his audience there is an internet. That might confuse them, if they ever figured out how to find it.

Talk radio and Fox News. What more do you need?

403 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:30:41pm

re: #389 bratwurst

Never fear...Bill "Ted Baxter" O'Reilly has gotten to the bottom of what REALLY caused the Newtown tragedy:

(safe to click for guns nuts...naturally, it has nothing to do with guns)

Image: tedbaxterknows.jpg

Wait, so he's saying Lanza was a Freeper?

404 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:31:12pm

re: #389 bratwurst

Never fear...Bill "Ted Baxter" O'Reilly has gotten to the bottom of what REALLY caused the Newtown tragedy:

(safe to click for guns nuts...naturally, it has nothing to do with guns)

Image: tedbaxterknows.jpg

So he's saying that the people that make comments on Fox News and the fever swamps are dangerous?

405 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:31:21pm

Yep, 223s are weak.
e_e

406 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:31:45pm

Texas Gun Store Owner Is Offering Teacher Discounts

Disgusting brain-dead self-promotion, same price as ever.

407 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:32:02pm

re: #398 Obdicut

The custodian at my school got busted for selling coke to the kids.

Nice guy though.

I take the principal was a Pepsi fan?

408 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:32:09pm

Let's just ignore the fact that the ME wouldn't allow the parents to see their kids because of the extreme damage, eh gun nuts?

409 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:32:29pm

re: #407 b_sharp

I take the principal was a Pepsi fan?

Or hero...
Nevermind.
/

410 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:33:15pm

re: #406 jaunte

Texas Gun Store Owner Is Offering Teacher Discounts

Disgusting brain-dead self-promotion, same price as ever.

Discounts on teachers. What a country!

/Smirnoff moment

411 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:33:49pm

It boggles the mind to think about what one .223 bullet would do to a 6-year old. And they were all shot multiple times. It's like Lanza wanted to just erase them from existence.

412 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:34:35pm

Parsing the technicalities of ballistics and weapons is a tactic to delay or stop debate on gun control. Anybody considering or advocating for gun control can make a mistake: once made, that person 'doesn't know what they are talking about' and by default the conversation about gun control will therefore end.

It's a recurring pitfall when discussing gun control.

413 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:35:26pm

re: #408 Varek Raith

Let's just ignore the fact that the ME wouldn't allow the parents to see their kids because of the extreme damage, eh gun nuts?

Hey, a .223 isn't strong enough for a deer, so Because Shut Up.

414 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:36:09pm

re: #378 b_sharp

Here's the difference.

Image: 22_penny_223-tfb.jpg

That is a fake penny.

415 Targetpractice  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:37:31pm

You know, the more effort gun cultists put into trying to deflect talk about more guns = more violence by pointing to countries like Israel and Switzerland, the more obvious it becomes just how little they know about gun laws outside the US.

416 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:37:34pm

re: #379 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Now you're getting into culture- definitions, meanings, etc.

A very, very important conversation.

417 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:37:59pm

re: #411 Charles Johnson

It boggles the mind to think about what one .223 bullet would do to a 6-year old. And they were all shot multiple times. It's like Lanza wanted to just erase them from existence.

Let alone the fact that they're blowing off the lethality of .223 in order to defend their gun HOBBY within the context of 20 six to seven years olds being slaughtered with said ammo.

418 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:38:15pm

re: #414 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

That is a fake penny.

Therefore the difference in charge and weight between the .22 and .223 is fake.

419 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:39:30pm

re: #417 Gus

Let alone the fact that they're blowing off the lethality of .223 in order to defend their gun HOBBY within the context of 20 six to seven years olds being slaughtered with said ammo.

= Gun Nuts Building 7

420 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:40:16pm

re: #364 dragonath

Blast a hole through the walls, depressurize the cabin, kill everybody. Sounds like a well thought out plan.

Not.

I suspect that people who are willing to be suicide bombers wouldn't give a rat's ass if they were shot.

So, given that the hijackers are surrounded, how many of those pistol-packin' passengers are going to take "friendly fire"?

Not, indeed.

An immensely stupid cartoon.

421 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:40:18pm
422 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:40:28pm

re: #419 Kronocide

= Gun Nuts Building 7

It's amazing what lengths people will go to defend a HOBBY.

423 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:42:55pm

re: #381 Kronocide

Superduck Gay Threat

Homeschooling: legit!

Oh, great.

As if I didn't have enough to worry about.

424 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:43:33pm

re: #416 researchok

Now you're getting into culture- definitions, meanings, etc.

A very, very important conversation.

I thought I was heading in that direction all along. I'm not sure it can happen, because this topic is too polarizing. We'll get some sort of AWB and life will go back as it always has.

And we'll continue to lose a lot of kid to the system or the streets and in school shootings.

425 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:45:47pm

I have two points to make:

This is a self-defense weapon.

This is not.

However, I just learned that the AR-15 is legal in both Sweden and Finland. Not sure about Norway, but I think the incident last year may answer my question.

426 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:46:36pm

re: #424 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I thought I was heading in that direction all along. I'm not sure it can happen, because this topic is too polarizing. We'll get some sort of AWB and life will go back as it always has.

And we'll continue to lose a lot of kid to the system or the streets and in school shootings.

Like the lady that wrote the I am Adam Lanza article. People don't want to hear those things, she is violating her kid's privacy, whatever.

Perhaps if more people knew what kind of life that familyand others have and the options that that kids that don't fit the mold don't have, we'll get some serious funding and legislation.

But no, it's too ickky.

Simple things like testing every child for dyslexia would end a lot of violence and incarceration in this country, but I guess that's ickky too.

427 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:48:41pm

Have a great evening all.

428 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:53:00pm

re: #424 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I do believe the issue can be discussed but in a less heated forum.

There are some thoughts I have on the subject you might find relevant. If you are so inclined, email me at my nic at gmail

429 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:53:29pm

re: #426 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Like the lady that wrote the I am Adam Lanza article. People don't want to hear those things, she is violating her kid's privacy, whatever.

It was a distraction by an attention freak. How many people clicked on that article thinking that it really was written by Adam Lanza's mother (not realizing she had been killed)?

430 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:55:42pm

Dana Loesch is is on a Twitter binge. She is rage-Tweeting like there's no tomorrow.

431 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:56:59pm

re: #413 Kronocide

Hey, a .223 isn't strong enough for a deer, so Because Shut Up.

But see, that's factually true. What's left unsaid is that the .223 Remington is the base cartridge from which NATO designed the 5.56mm round. They chose it for a lot of reasons, but one big selling point is that it tumbles wildly once it hits something, which causes massive tissue damage if that something happens to be a slab of meat approximately human-sized.

So yes, it's not powerful enough to stop a deer humanely. But that's like saying an 18-wheeler can't go as fast as a Ferrari. It's irrelevant. You don't want to be hit by either one.

432 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 5:57:36pm

Norway, Sweden, and Finland are awesome, but deeply weird.

433 Gus  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:02:48pm

re: #430 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Dana Loesch is is on a Twitter binge. She is rage-Tweeting like there's no tomorrow.

We're coming for your gunz Dana!!11ty

434 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:03:19pm

re: #425 ProMayaLiberal

I have two points to make:

This is a self-defense weapon.

This is not.

However, I just learned that the AR-15 is legal in both Sweden and Finland. Not sure about Norway, but I think the incident last year may answer my question.

Overpenetration is a concern if you are considering a firearm for home defense. If you really want to go that route, a shotgun would be a better choice. I wouldn't consider a rifle of any description for that purpose.

I'm not a gun hater by any stretch, but I think that if someone is thinking "I need to buy a firearm for the specific purpose of defending myself against intruders," they'd do much better to consider moving to a different neighborhood.

But maybe that's the voice of privilege. I don't know.

435 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:05:13pm

I think it may turn out that Adam Lanza's home-schooling by a parent who was hoarding guns in preparation for the end of civilization was an important factor in this case.

436 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:08:15pm

re: #435 Charles Johnson

Take it to the bank.

The limiting of socialization is never good idea- especially for a teenager.

437 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:08:55pm

re: #434 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Overpenetration is a concern if you are considering a firearm for home defense. If you really want to go that route, a shotgun would be a better choice. I wouldn't consider a rifle of any description for that purpose.

I'm not a gun hater by any stretch, but I think that if someone is thinking "I need to buy a firearm for the specific purpose of defending myself against intruders," they'd do much better to consider moving to a different neighborhood.

But maybe that's the voice of privilege. I don't know.

The only place I ever lived where I really thought I might need a gun was Chicago. It can be a tough city. Even with my recent late night break in here in Portland a gun wasn't a serious consideration for me. They ran when I woke up and that's good enough for me. I invested in a good alarm system that even covers my yard and a few flood lights for under $2,000. Money well spent.

438 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:09:31pm

re: #434 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Oh, I understand what you are saying. Still stunned by Norway, Sweden, and Finland on this. Maybe we should just lift the laws they have on guns wholesale, and make them law here.

439 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:10:52pm

re: #435 Charles Johnson

I think it may turn out that Adam Lanza's home-schooling by a parent who was hoarding guns in preparation for the end of civilization was an important factor in this case.

I'm still holding out for more info. Home schooling a special needs child seems like it might be a good idea for those with the resources to do so.

440 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:13:00pm

re: #348 RadicalModerate

This mayor and Chief of Police are gonna get served with a federal lawsuit so fast that they won't see what hit them.

Armed task force to patrol streets

Papers!

442 researchok  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:17:31pm

re: #439 Killgore Trout

KT, he was clearly more functional that he was special needs.

The mother may have thought she was doing the right thing, or wanted to 'protect' him, but consider these two possibilities:

a) He attacked children because he was 'protecting them'- he didn't want them to grow up like himself.

b) He resented normal kids (because he wasn't one of them) he was lashing out.

In in his isolation he had all kind sof time to obsess over all kinds of things.

Now, there are many other possibilities but these two are as like as any. In either case, the disruption of a social environment would only highlight his perceived 'difference'.

Home schooling a young child one thing- a teenager who needs social interaction is a whole other thing.

443 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:17:43pm

re: #435 Charles Johnson

I think it may turn out that Adam Lanza's home-schooling by a parent who was hoarding guns in preparation for the end of civilization was an important factor in this case.

Maybe. But alternatively it could be a sign his mother was trying something new in handling her son because something had changed. Or, sadly, maybe even a mother's attempt to protect her son.

As much as I go on and on about the mental health thing, we're really in a low-information orbit here. Teasing out the few details available you can create a lot of scenarios: mentally ill/not, angry/melancholy, mother homeschools him to protect him/to isolate him.

444 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:23:58pm

re: #443 The Ghost of a Flea

Having had the experience of home schooling four teenagers, I can offer that they don't necessarily isolate themselves from other kids unless they want to, or you live way out in the wilderness.

445 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:25:02pm

re: #444 jaunte

Having had the experience of home schooling four teenagers, I can offer that they don't necessarily isolate themselves from other kids unless they want to, or you live way out in the wilderness.

I haven't seen EmmmieG around here lately but she is a home schooler.

446 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:26:27pm

re: #352 Obdicut

Because people who are going to commit crimes carry an ID that says "Criminal"?

Seems more a 'show of force' idea, with the additional aim of making clear to would-be criminals that they are being monitored.

That's not to say this is a good idea, because it isn't.

447 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:29:49pm

re: #432 ProMayaLiberal

Norway, Sweden, and Finland are awesome, but deeply weird.

But not in the main a model for the US. All of them are smaller nations than we in terms of population, and they are much more homogeneous. The US started out very heterogeneous and its only gotten more so over time. So what works there will often not work here and vice versa.

448 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:43:55pm

re: #439 Killgore Trout

I'm still holding out for more info. Home schooling a special needs child seems like it might be a good idea for those with the resources to do so.

It does, but the fact she was one of these "survivalist" whackaloons tends to lead to home-schooling for different reasons, i.e. we're going to learn proper technique in how to mow down cannibals with our AR-15 today and proper gas-mask etiquette after nap-time.

Home-schooling in and of itself is not a terrible thing, as KT said, if you have the available resources (she obviously did) and can properly teach your child. But I think the public in general has a poor view of homeschooling because of the negatives associated with it (which I'm sure it's a small %age of the overall, but stigmas are stigmas). It tends to be more associated with religious folks, or anti-school indoctrination nutters, and the general consensus (again, from what I see and hear) is that products of it aren't as socially capable as others.

449 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:43:58pm

re: #447 Dark_Falcon

Not as much as you think.

In addition, I have gotten real tired of that BS Canard. Why not try it? Many of our unique "solutions" are dragging us down. Time to try things that have worked elsewhere, at least for a starting point. The US is exceptional in only 3 ways. By our ability to absorb and integrate others from foreign nations, our flexibility, and our willingness to try new ideas.

I would go as far to say your attitude on this is weakening America. Time to start taking ideas from elsewhere and trying them. I have heard the excuse you just gave in less reputable circles in wanting to weaken welfare and health care as well, so you might want to reconsider that position.

450 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:50:58pm

re: #444 jaunte

Having had the experience of home schooling four teenagers, I can offer that they don't necessarily isolate themselves from other kids unless they want to, or you live way out in the wilderness.

Really, I was just trying to show how you could take the various bits of information about the Lanzas, mother and son, and create multiple stories about their dynamics.

451 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:51:11pm

re: #421 jaunte

Kearns elementary student brings gun to school to protect self

Comment from that article...

Well If the Kid was WELL TRAINED on how to use it. Why not? We need more guns in schools by WELL TRAINED individuals. I know kids that can out shoot any cop in competitions. If all principals and/or teachers had locked guns in their offices, Many lives can be saved. Also true a few lives may be taken too because some teachers are threatened by students. But that teacher has the right to protect him or herself even in a school. Yes I carry and my kids carry and have been TRAINED how to shoot and the consequenses along side it.

Yeah that is what we need, all the kids over 10 to be carrying guns as well, what could go wrong?

452 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:53:30pm

re: #451 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Comment from that article...

Yeah that is what we need, all the kids over 10 to be carrying guns as well, what could go wrong?

Eliding shooting skill with crisis management. These people are really stupid.

453 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:54:06pm

re: #449 ProMayaLiberal

Not as much as you think.

In addition, I have gotten real tired of that BS Canard. Why not try it? Many of our unique "solutions" are dragging us down. Time to try things that have worked elsewhere, at least for a starting point. The US is exceptional in only 3 ways. By our ability to absorb and integrate others from foreign nations, our flexibility, and our willingness to try new ideas.

I would go as far to say your attitude on this is weakening America. Time to start taking ideas from elsewhere and trying them. I have heard the excuse you just gave in less reputable circles in wanting to weaken welfare and health care as well, so you might want to reconsider that position.

Where do you think I said that?

454 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:54:26pm

re: #445 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I haven't seen EmmmieG around here lately but she is a home schooler.

We seem to have lost her and SFZ during the most recent Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

455 jaunte  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 6:57:10pm

re: #451 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I can't believe someone is advocating for arming elementary school students. The insanity just keeps growing.

456 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:50:05pm

re: #455 jaunte

I can't believe someone is advocating for arming elementary school students. The insanity just keeps growing.

I was really taken aback by this part...

Also true a few lives may be taken too because some teachers are threatened by students. But that teacher has the right to protect him or herself even in a school.

So he is admitting up front that this would result in teachers shooting students (or vice-versa) in self-defense and he doesn't seem to have any problem with that. Keeping his beloved military grade weaponry is more important to him than turning our schools into shooting galleries I guess.

457 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 17, 2012 9:41:37pm

I came to the thread after comment 456, and have spent the last hour or so scanning the comments. Maybe it's late in the thread, but I want to say a few things.

As for B. Fischer, who should just shut his damn piehole, God is not a gentleman by any stretch of the imagination. He told Mary (by proxy) she was pregnant (by proxy) after the fact. He punished Jonah for disobedience by letting a whale swallow him whole. He wiped out entire cities, told his followers to commit genocide, told Adam and Eve, "Everything here is for you, except those two things over there," then kicked them out of the house and cursed them besides for disobedience. He flooded the entire world.

Some gentleman. You're just like him.

Secondly, Fischer, if God is omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent, he can fucking go wherever and whenever he likes. Waiting for people to "welcome" him is not part of his job description. You're saying, in other words, that God only hangs out in churches while people are there praying and stuff. The rest of the time he's off, I don't know, playing golf with Zeus or something. I suppose that's when Satan makes his appearances and screws around with us.

Just a little heretical, don't ya think, not to mention self-contradictory?

Liza Long, you've got some serious, personal issues. I raised four kids. Sometimes it wasn't easy. They made me angry and frustrated, too. Maybe Adam Lanza reminds you of your son somehow, but that's no reason to irresponsibly suggest to the Internet that your son might possibly be homicidal someday. Talk about narcissism. It's not all about you!

I got more to vent, but need some time to compose my thoughts. This'll do for now.

458 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:40:56am
459 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:01:39am

re: #458 Mar

I assume you're posting that to show how stupid it is?

460 Mar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:31:51am

Of course, just waiting for some knuckle-dragging mouth breather to blame gay marriage.

461 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:25:36am

re: #428 researchok

I do believe the issue can be discussed but in a less heated forum.

There are some thoughts I have on the subject you might find relevant. If you are so inclined, email me at my nic at gmail

I am inclined but I can't seem to find your email, clicking your nic only takes me to your website. I'm not finding a "contact" link.


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