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Megan McArdle: We Should Train Children to ‘Gang Rush’ Shooters

WTF!
Wingnuts • Views: 19,711

It might be comical to watch right wingers attempting to come up with talking points to spin the atrocities in Newtown, if the subject wasn’t so horrible. Some of their suggestions for dealing with the issues of gun violence are so absurd, though, that you just have to laugh. To keep from sobbing.

Today’s case in point — libertarian Megan McArdle, now writing for the Daily Beast, who dismisses all forms of gun control and comes up with this howler of a solution instead: children should be trained to “gang rush shooters.”

I’d also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once.

Oh, good grief. This is where the leading intellects of the right wing have ended up — in such total fatalism that the best thing they can suggest is for kindergarten students to be trained to commit mass suicide when gunmen enter their classrooms. Astounding.

And we thought Power Line’s ridiculous suggestion to make schools more like biker bars was bad. What the hell is wrong with these people?

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427 comments

1 Lidane  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:23:09am

How does Megan McArdle get through the day without hurting herself?

These people are certifiable. WTF.

2 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:23:50am
3 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:24:16am

Yeah because that will make it better. Really, how hard is it for some people to do what Joe Manchin and Joe Scarborough did and realize "You know, guns may actually be part of the problem here." But no we get this inane crap and people blaming this on anyone from teachers unions to gay rights.

4 GunstarGreen  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:25:28am

This has gone beyond idiocy.

This is a sickness.

5 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:25:55am
6 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:25:56am

OK kids! Let's roll!

Derp.

7 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:27:30am

Lets Rollianism.

I'm sure the Founding Fathers said it.

8 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:28:42am

It worked so well in World War 1.

9 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:29:26am

Megan McArdle gets paid by The Atlantic to write this stuff because she is better and smarter than you and me.//

10 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30:13am

Rephrasing from yesterday:

If the answer is 'train six-year-olds to run towards people who are shooting a gun at them', YOU NEED TO RETHINK THE FUCKING QUESTION.

11 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30:15am

Kindergarteners rushing at a gunman who's opening fire on crowds with a Bushmaster? Sounds perfectly reasonable. If you want to increase the body count, that is. [facepalm]

Now, maybe older folks - think high schoolers or college age folks could potentially overpower someone with a gun hellbent on a rampage, but many of these mass casualty attacks end when either the shooter commits suicide, or is overpowered when their gun jams or they need to reload. And even then, there's a chance that taking that action will increase the number of casualties.

FWIW, the principal and psychiatrist who were killed apparently tried to intercept the shooter coming into the school, but both were killed.

12 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30:25am

From commenter aubergine_1 in the comments section:

Given that the US is the only industrialized nation that allows its citizens to walk around with lethal weapons, it's patently absurd to declare that this practice is so 'natural' to us as a nation, so unmovably fixed in our constitution and our preference (see slavery), that, oh alas, it can't be changed. It really is a matter of will, and to discourage that will is to take an effective position in undermining it. And that position does indeed invite dystopia.

Someone who gets it.

13 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:31:19am

Silicon Valley's latest startup darling (with no visible means of revenue) "Quora" loves hypotheticals like this.

I don't get it.


[Link: www.quora.com...]

Given a closed room with no exits and an infinite number of kindergarteners determined to kill you, how many could you kill before you yourself died?
Edit
Assume:

The kindergarteners all come at you at once with no end to them; when one goes down, another takes its place.
You are wearing jeans, a t-shirt, a light jacket, and sneakers. You have no weapons. However, you are allowed to use slain enemies as you wish.
There are no windows, exits, or objects in the room, and it is lit by magic. You cannot escape from the room.
You are fully rested, fed, and in your peak physical condition.

14 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:33:45am

What the fuck is this fucking ignorant horseshit?

15 Polito  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:34:14am

Wonder why people are increasingly turning away from religion when the spokesmen, the most prominent ones, the face of Christianity really...explaining that God chose to let it happen, and we really had it coming, don't you understand...

Count me out.

16 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:34:34am

Ya know, the guys from the hijacked 9/11 flight that made "lets roll" a meme, all went down with plane.

17 brennant  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:34:53am

Clark: "Holy shit, where's the aspirin!"

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:35:47am

These guys have gone over the Rhetorical Cliff, but they are too brain dead to notice...they will continue to make idiots of themselves, because all they know how to do is double down ("Don't retreat, reload!")

I remain convinced that the majority of Americans (and the majority of gun owners) are sane and will start walking away from these idiots.

Even politicians are finally getting the nerve to no longer be cowed by a gun nut/gun industry-driven lobby and start to respond to what the majority of Americans already support: tighter gun control legislation.

19 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:35:49am

The things to do are to run away, if possible, to barricade yourself behind a door, if possible, to hide behind something, if running and barricading are not possible, and to play dead, if all other choices are closed.

Fighting back is utterly impossible for 6 year olds.

If it had been teens, then perhaps fighting might have been feasible. Again, assuming running away or barricading a room were not options.

You'd need odds of 20 to 1 or so to stand any real chance, and you'd need students who had played on a team and developed a degree of cooperation.

I don't see calling fighting back "suicide". If you can't run and you can't hide, fighting back is at worst no different than simply waiting your turn to get shot.

Second guessing the conduct of the people who were there is so unfair. They did everything right. The principle tried her luck at brazening it out and brusquely ordering the gunman out. Who knows? It might have worked. The captain went down with the ship. Good try though.

The teachers barricaded their positions, many of them. That did work.

Others who didn't have that possibility did the next best thing, and shielded their students with their own bodies. That got them killed, but it saved the lives of some of the students.

The first responders girded their loins and went in without waiting around for backup or perfect information. That might have got them killed, but as things worked out, the gunner lost his nerve and killed himself rather than face somebody else who also had a gun.

Far from laying blame, we should be giving credit. Compared to what might have happened, and given what the people on the scene had to work with, the actual result is comparable to the incredible emergency landing at Sioux City, Iowa long ago. Many of the passengers and crew died, and that was bad, but given the circumstances of engines out and control surfaces gone, that was a huge achievement. In simulations after the event, no crew has ever managed even a crash landing. The crew did better than possible, in other words.

20 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:36:14am

Another libertarian tip for surviving a shooting: Use a fattie as a human shield.

21 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:36:39am

re: #15 Polito

Wonder why people are increasingly turning away from religion when the spokesmen, the most prominent ones, the face of Christianity really...explaining that God chose to let it happen, and we really had it coming, don't you understand...

Count me out.

Join the club. The clincher for me was a woman insisting that Flight 93 crashing in PA was proof of God's existence.

22 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:37:10am
23 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:37:16am
24 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:38:36am

re: #23 ReamWorks SKG

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

I don't get it either. If you want to off yourself, just do so. Don't take other's with you.

25 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:38:50am

re: #15 Polito

Wonder why people are increasingly turning away from religion when the spokesmen, the most prominent ones, the face of Christianity really...explaining that God chose to let it happen, and we really had it coming, don't you understand...

Count me out.

Yeah. Really if God's having first graders die because he or it doesn't like gays marrying. Then quite frankly I don't think I want to believe in God. I do confess to being drawn to the concept of a positive afterlife but a lot of religion turns me off because it's increasingly about what you're talking about.

26 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:40:36am

Fischer: Sandy Hook Shooting Proof That America's 'Moral Capital' has Run Out

Since Fischer absolutely means everything he says, there was no need for him to attempt to apologize for or clarify his original comments in any way, so instead he simply reiterated and expanded upon them, explaining that the shooting was evidence that the reservoir of "moral capital" that this nation had built up by publicly honoring and recognizing God from its founding until 1962 has now been utterly depleted, thus weakening the shield of God's protection and allowing Satan to get through:

Why 1962?

School Desegregation?

27 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:40:58am

This is ridiculous, and it's pretty obvious what we have to do. First, we need to repeal the Second Amendment. But after that, we need some proposal as to how to go about seizing the 300 million firearms already out there. In the meantime, Congress could pass a law banning the sale or manufacture or any new semi-automatic weapon, pistol or rifle. It will take some time before the courts over turn it, so there would be a momentary repreive. After we amend the constitution, and seize the 300 million firearms that are already privately owend, we then need to prevent the smuggling in of any more semi-automatics, so we should get going on a real fence on the southern border, instead of just the virtual one.

This is going to take some time. What should we do in the meantime if there's another mass shooting?

28 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:41:11am

re: #26 Kragar

Fischer: Sandy Hook Shooting Proof That America's 'Moral Capital' has Run Out

Why 1962?

School Desegregation?

The school prayer case. Engel Vs Vitale.

29 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:41:34am

re: #16 Holidays are Family Fun Time

They made the decision to stand and fight against a bunch of guys with knives. They still paid with their lives - and they knew that the terrorists were going to crash the plane - it was their actions that helped shape that the crash would spare the lives of others - and spare potentially the WH or Capitol buildings from catastrophic damage.

re: #19 lostlakehiker

More to the point, we can hope that the psychiatrist's and principal's actions may have given other teachers and folks at the school precious moments to get out of harm's way and barricade the way to the shooter. It's possible she gave her life for others to have a few moments they needed to safely whisk away other kids from danger.

30 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:41:54am

re: #25 HappyWarrior

Can I interest you in Crom?

31 Polito  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:41:56am

re: #21 Mattand

I didn't hear about that but I don't doubt it

32 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:42:17am

I wonder how much ganja McArdle smoked before writing this? It's gotta be some pretty wicked shit, because in all honesty, no matter how high I've ever been in the past, the thought of telling tots to run toward to a shooter never would've crossed my mind.

Either that, or she's insane.

33 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:42:33am

re: #27 Tanker J.D.

^^^Enough strawmen in this post to feed all the cattle in Texas.

34 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:42:37am

re: #25 HappyWarrior

Yeah. Really if God's having first graders die because he or it doesn't like gays marrying. Then quite frankly I don't think I want to believe in God. I do confess to being drawn to the concept of a positive afterlife but a lot of religion turns me off because it's increasingly about what you're talking about.

"It's ok if you are a "slave" to the Religious Men who take your money while you are alive, you'll be in heaven after you die. "

Yeah, I've never bought that line either.

35 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:42:55am

re: #30 Kragar

Can I interest you in Crom?

Tell me more.

36 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:42:55am

BREAKING NEWS: Obama supports Sen. Feinstein's intent to try reinstating assault weapons sale ban - via Reuters.

37 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:43:30am

re: #21 Mattand

Join the club. The clincher for me was a woman insisting that Flight 93 crashing in PA was proof of God's existence.

The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.

This is an old theological conundrum but the theological answer has long since been worked out. Mainstream Christian and Jewish doctrine holds that when it comes to random stuff like rain, (and by extension, like lightning and like criminals who are banging away), who lives and who dies really is random. God doesn't send the football through the upright to ensure that His team wins. The dice of life are not loaded. You'll get what's coming to you later. In this life, you'll get your rain, or not get it, whether you've been naughty or nice.

The naturalist explanation is that there is no God, and again, the dice of life are not loaded. The two accounts of the way things are cannot be distinguished by looking at who gets a lucky break and who doesn't. There's no way to prove, or disprove, the existence of God by looking at such things.

38 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:43:37am

re: #30 Kragar

But I know the riddle of full metal jacket. /

39 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:43:59am

re: #36 lawhawk

BREAKING NEWS: Obama supports Sen. Feinstein's intent to try reinstating assault weapons sale ban - via Reuters.

And you watch, LaPierre and the assholes who run the NRA will use this as "proof" that their conspiracy theory nonsense was right.

40 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:44:29am

re: #29 lawhawk

They made the decision to stand and fight against a bunch of guys with knives. They still paid with their lives - and they knew that the terrorists were going to crash the plane - it was their actions that helped shape that the crash would spare the lives of others - and spare potentially the WH or Capitol buildings from catastrophic damage.

re: #19 lostlakehiker

More to the point, we can hope that the psychiatrist's and principal's actions may have given other teachers and folks at the school precious moments to get out of harm's way and barricade the way to the shooter. It's possible she gave her life for others to have a few moments they needed to safely whisk away other kids from danger.

I understand that. The point being that it didn't save their lives. I hope the speaker isn't suggesting that the children sacrifice themselves they way the passengers of Flight 93 did.

Really bad thinking IMHO.

41 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:44:54am

re: #39 HappyWarrior

And you watch, LaPierre and the assholes who run the NRA will use this as "proof" that their conspiracy theory nonsense was right.

Inside job, &c.

42 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:45:25am

re: #36 lawhawk

BREAKING NEWS: Obama supports Sen. Feinstein's intent to try reinstating assault weapons sale ban - via Reuters.

Have they said anything about how it will be written?

43 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:45:32am

re: #35 HappyWarrior

Tell me more.

Crom's one gift to man is the courage to face adversity and persevere in the face of struggle.

After that, you're on your own.

44 Polito  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:45:32am

re: #25 HappyWarrior

Exactly. There is no divine "reason" it happened. It's pure misery, no rhyme or reason, no justice, and not even a one-on-one conversation with God could convince me otherwise. Shit just happens.

45 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:46:01am

re: #27 Tanker J.D.

This is ridiculous, and it's pretty obvious what we have to do. First, we need to repeal the Second Amendment. But after that, we need some proposal as to how to go about seizing the 300 million firearms already out there. In the meantime, Congress could pass a law banning the sale or manufacture or any new semi-automatic weapon, pistol or rifle. It will take some time before the courts over turn it, so there would be a momentary repreive. After we amend the constitution, and seize the 300 million firearms that are already privately owend, we then need to prevent the smuggling in of any more semi-automatics, so we should get going on a real fence on the southern border, instead of just the virtual one.

This is going to take some time. What should we do in the meantime if there's another mass shooting?

Thank you Alex.

46 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:46:09am

re: #27 Tanker J.D.

Nobody here is in favor of repealing the 2nd Amendment. Go hang your straw man up from another tree and beat it with the butt of your assault rifle...

47 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:46:11am

re: #43 Kragar

Crom's one gift to man is the courage to face adversity and persevere in the face of struggle.

After that, you're on your own.

Ah okay. I've never heard of that before, thanks.

48 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:46:24am

re: #29 lawhawk

They made the decision to stand and fight against a bunch of guys with knives. They still paid with their lives - and they knew that the terrorists were going to crash the plane - it was their actions that helped shape that the crash would spare the lives of others - and spare potentially the WH or Capitol buildings from catastrophic damage.

re: #19 lostlakehiker

More to the point, we can hope that the psychiatrist's and principal's actions may have given other teachers and folks at the school precious moments to get out of harm's way and barricade the way to the shooter. It's possible she gave her life for others to have a few moments they needed to safely whisk away other kids from danger.

Yeah---even if the primary hoped for outcome of confronting the gunman didn't work, time is golden in such a crisis. A door may be locked just in time, that would not have been locked without the delay thus bought.

Again I say: all concerned conducted themselves admirably. Even the kids. They could not have done any better.

49 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:47:05am

Find me peace within myself first.

50 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:47:44am

re: #46 Sol Berdinowitz

He's not even on the thread any more.

51 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:47:47am

re: #46 Sol Berdinowitz

Nobody here is in favor of repealing the 2nd Amendment. Go hang your straw man up from another tree and beat it with the butt of your assault rifle...

Exactly, no slippery slope to total gun confiscation is proposed by anyone. (well maybe there are those as whacko as the "arm every man, woman and child' bunch).

The idea of such would be held-up in court for decades, then the Supreme Court would deny it. Not only is it illegal, it is unworkable.

52 S'latch  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:48:05am

I think I will tell my son (age 7) to be a hero and attack an armed assailant, NOT!

53 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:48:41am

re: #52 S'latch

I think I will tell my son (age 7) to be a hero and attack an assailant with a gun, NOT!

there are those that would . . . .

54 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:49:28am

re: #52 S'latch

I think I will tell my son (age 7) to be a hero and attack an assailant with a gun, NOT!

The secret is to get everyone else to do it for you while you take cover.

55 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:02am

re: #37 lostlakehiker

There's no way to prove, or disprove, the existence of God by looking at such things.

I can't disprove Zeus or Thor, either.

56 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:04am

re: #50 jaunte

He's not even on the thread any more.

Dump and run job.

57 S.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:12am

Assuming it's not her attempt satire (I've read the article in full and don't think it is...): Thanks Ms. McArdle, that is hands down the dumbest thing I've read all year.

58 shecky  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:31am

I guess McArdle's taking advice from Jimmy Hoffa on this one. Must be good, right?

59 Skip Intro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:36am

re: #28 HappyWarrior

The school prayer case. Engel Vs Vitale.

If Fischer isn't working for Satan, who is?

60 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:58am

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Dump and run job.

Emphasis on the word 'dump'.

61 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:50:59am

re: #50 jaunte

He's not even on the thread any more.

Class of 2004 with low comment count. See puppet, sock.

62 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:03am

re: #59 Skip Intro

If Fischer isn't working for Satan, who is?

Obama obviously.

63 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:03am

re: #42 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Have they said anything about how it will be written?

Probably a piss-poorly as the last time as it's a knee-jerk response being written in the heat of the moment.

If it is, it will do no good and prevent no murders, just like the last AWB.

And it will give the Republicans the Senate in 2014.

64 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:27am

re: #61 Interesting Times

Class of 2004 with low comment count. See puppet, sock.

Those guys are all assholes.

65 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:28am

re: #57 S.D.

I'd love to see her try to get a group of libertarians to cooperatively rush a shooter for the common good.

66 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:35am

re: #27 Tanker J.D.

we should get going on a real fence on the southern border, instead of just the virtual one.

This is pretty much what I was talking about yesterday when I mentioned that it is my theory that many of the most insane gun nuts largely fantasize about defending themselves against illegal immigrants.

67 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:47am

re: #42 Holidays are Family Fun Time

68 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:52:28am

re: #26 Kragar

Fischer: Sandy Hook Shooting Proof That America's 'Moral Capital' has Run Out

Why 1962?

School Desegregation?

A number of possibilities
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

- Navy SEALS formed
- a grand conjunction of the planets
- John Glenn orbits the Earth
- Kmart opens
- "West Side Story" wins Best Picture Oscar
- Frank Morris escapes from Alcatraz
- Wal-Mart opens
- first published appearance of Spider-Man
- _Silent Spring_ is published
- James Meredith registers at the Univ of Miss
- Second Vatican Council convenes
- "you don't have Nixon to kick around any more"
- Jim Carrey is born

69 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:52:29am

re: #66 bratwurst

And preppers will use any kind of restriction as proof that they're right to hoard weapons and prepare for something.

70 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:52:32am

re: #64 Kragar

Those guys are all assholes.

Takes one to know one.

///

71 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:52:33am

Yeah, I was being sarcastic, but a renewed assault weapons ban may not survive 2d Amendment scrutiny under Heller, which was decided after the previous ban sunsetted... Sort of need to deal with that...

And that it's a good point that taking the flash suppressor and the grenade launcher off of a semi-automatic doesn't reduce the lethality of the weapon. It's really the power of the ammunition and the automatic reload that allow so much carnage in short periods of time. So is the answer to get rid of all semi's? And then we still have to deal with the 200-300 million that are out there...

To me, it's a tragic no-good-solutions situation, and picking on a stupid commentor here doesn't really offer a workable alternative...

Just sayin'...

72 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:52:36am

re: #65 jaunte

I'd love to see her try to get a group of libertarians to cooperatively rush a shooter for the common good.

LOL! It'd be like herding cats who think Ayn Rand is a good writer.

73 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:53:45am

re: #65 jaunte

I'd love to see her try to get a group of libertarians to cooperatively rush a shooter for the common good.

WWJGD?

74 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:54:26am

re: #68 Feline Fearless Leader

"West Side Story".

Damned musicals.

75 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:54:27am
And we thought Power Line’s ridiculous suggestion to make schools more like biker bars was bad. What the hell is wrong with these people?

Guns must be protected at all cost. People can be sacrificed for the good of The Gun. /

76 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:54:28am

Shootout at Galt's Gulch.

"Why don't you go first?"

77 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:54:33am

re: #71 Tanker J.D.

Heller doesn't eliminate the potential restriction on types of weapons to be banned. Heller restates that an individual has a right to bear arms, but existing constitutional law has allowed restrictions on the types of weapons and ammo that can be owned.

78 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:55:03am

re: #68 Feline Fearless Leader

A number of possibilities
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

- Navy SEALS formed
- a grand conjunction of the planets
- John Glenn orbits the Earth
- Kmart opens
- "West Side Story" wins Best Picture Oscar
- Frank Morris escapes from Alcatraz
- Wal-Mart opens
- first published appearance of Spider-Man
- _Silent Spring_ is published
- James Meredith registers at the Univ of Miss
- Second Vatican Council convenes
- "you don't have Nixon to kick around any more"
- Jim Carrey is born

Obviously it's Jim Carrey heh. Seriously though, see my comment, I am 95% sure he's talking about Engel Vs Vitale, that case is probably the most hated Warren Court era decision by people like Fischer because it ruled that forced school prayer was no longer constitutional. Religious zealots like Fischer see it as the moment society started going down hill. Funny how Canada is even more secular than we are yet they don't have these. Wonder why that is, eh Bry?

79 S'latch  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:55:05am

Maybe we should arm our children with tactical nuclear weapons so that they can defend themselves if they are attacked.

80 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:55:49am

re: #74 Dr Lizardo

"West Side Story".

Damned musicals.

Ha, I'm a more believable gang member than any of the Sharks and Jets were!

81 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:56:01am

re: #77 lawhawk

Heller doesn't eliminate the potential restriction on types of weapons to be banned. Heller restates that an individual has a right to bear arms, but existing constitutional law has allowed restrictions on the types of weapons and ammo that can be owned.

And that is what we can and should address.

We cannot enact any legislation that will put an end to mass shootings, but we can take steps against way that make it too easy to turn an already nasty incident into a bloodbath.

82 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:56:41am

I realize that, but Heller introduced an analysis about what people preferred to use in their home. It specifically addressed semi automatic handguns. The arguments and reasoning could translate to semi automatic rifles.

83 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:56:53am

re: #68 Feline Fearless Leader

A number of possibilities
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

- Navy SEALS formed
- a grand conjunction of the planets
- John Glenn orbits the Earth
- Kmart opens
- "West Side Story" wins Best Picture Oscar
- Frank Morris escapes from Alcatraz
- Wal-Mart opens
- first published appearance of Spider-Man
- _Silent Spring_ is published
- James Meredith registers at the Univ of Miss
- Second Vatican Council convenes
- "you don't have Nixon to kick around any more"
- Jim Carrey is born

Cuban missile crisis! Maybe he thinks we should have "fried*" Cuba.

*Gen. Curtis LeMay

//

84 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:57:00am

So, Cheaper Than Dirt has suspended gun sales.

They're also price gouging the gun nuts like mad:

[Link: www.cheaperthandirt.com...]

These were $14 each last week...

85 Jolo5309  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:57:56am

re: #68 Feline Fearless Leader

A number of possibilities
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


- Jim Carrey is born

Goddamm Canadians, always ruining something

86 allegro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:58:13am

re: #63 William Barnett-Lewis

Probably a piss-poorly as the last time as it's a knee-jerk response being written in the heat of the moment.

If it is, it will do no good and prevent no murders, just like the last AWB.

And it will give the Republicans the Senate in 2014.

Well, gee, then I guess there's just nothing to be done except mourn the murdered victims every few days with a c'est la vie.

//

87 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:58:51am

More robust licensing and registration would be more effective than focusing on the features of the rifle, IMHO....

88 Skip Intro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:59:22am

re: #79 S'latch

Maybe we should arm our children with tactical nuclear weapons so that they can defend themselves if they are attacked.

Nah, just issue them bayonets and a broomstick to attach them to, along with their books. If the schools can't afford both, just go with the bayonet/broomstick. You've got to keep your priorities straight here.

89 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:59:41am

re: #86 allegro

Well, gee, then I guess there's just nothing to be done except mourn the murdered victims every few days with a c'est la vie.

//

Gee, maybe you could instead pass a law that HELPS??? Feel good shit is still shit.

90 shecky  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:59:44am

I wonder if rushing a gun works works well enough to render meaningless the idea of arming students and teachers?

91 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:00:55am

re: #90 shecky

I wonder if rushing a gun works works well enough to render meaningless the idea of arming students and teachers?

Only if they rush the gun with the power of Almighty God behind them.

/not sure if

92 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:01:12am

Arm all the things!!1!

93 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:01:34am

re: #87 Tanker J.D.

What is it with people like you and ellipses?

94 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:01:44am

re: #74 Dr Lizardo

"West Side Story".

Damned musicals.

Also have to look at it in the proper wingnut mode as "Contaminating Shakespeare to make it about brown people!"
(Shh. Don't mention that "Othello" exists to them.)

95 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:01:55am

re: #88 Skip Intro

Nah, just issue them bayonets and a broomsticks to attach them to, along with their books. If the schools can't afford both, just go with the bayonet/broomstick. You've got to keep your priorities straight here.

Christ, then they'll be calls to privatize the broomstick/bayonets because no on will want to pay more taxes to protect the schoolkids.

Haliburton then comes in and charges triple of what they actually worth.

96 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:02:03am

re: #93 Obdicut

What is it with people like you and ellipses?

Upding for actual laugh-out-loud laughter.

97 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:02:44am

re: #90 shecky

No. The armed kids can stay back and fire, while those without arms must rush the shooter. /

98 RadicalModerate  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:02:52am

re: #87 Tanker J.D.

More robust licensing and registration would be more effective than focusing on the features of the rifle, IMHO....

Which the NRA has been front and center against at every attempt for the past 30 years. The "gun show" loophole should have been closed YEARS ago, and it is still there - to the point that currently some 70% of all LEGAL gun sales have no screening procedure at all.

99 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:02:53am

re: #93 Obdicut

What is it with people like you and ellipses?

Still better punctuation than sattv4u.

100 allegro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:03:01am

re: #89 William Barnett-Lewis

Gee, maybe you could instead pass a law that HELPS??? Feel good shit is still shit.

Have you seen the law still being written? How do you know if it helps or not?

101 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:03:30am

re: #78 HappyWarrior

Obviously it's Jim Carrey heh. Seriously though, see my comment, I am 95% sure he's talking about Engel Vs Vitale, that case is probably the most hated Warren Court era decision by people like Fischer because it ruled that forced school prayer was no longer constitutional. Religious zealots like Fischer see it as the moment society started going down hill. Funny how Canada is even more secular than we are yet they don't have these. Wonder why that is, eh Bry?

I concur that is what he meant. And I missed it on my quick scan through the list for potential examples. But as a statement then it has to be a sort of dog whistle since unless you were focused on that facet it would not be obvious what he was referring to.

102 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:04:09am

re: #24 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't get it either. If you want to off yourself, just do so. Don't take other's with you.

This.

If you want to kill a bunch of people and yourself, bump yourself to the head of the line.

103 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:04:27am
104 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:04:50am

re: #101 Feline Fearless Leader

I concur that is what he meant. And I missed it on my quick scan through the list for potential examples. But as a statement then it has to be a sort of dog whistle since unless you were focused on that facet it would not be obvious what he was referring to.

Ha, it's all good. It's not exactly a household name case like Brown is and I had to google to remember the name. I just had a feeling he was talking about school prayer because I know that one came in the early 60's. He's a disgusting asshole.

105 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:04:52am

I don't know... I think it signals that I think we're facing an intractable situation, and picking on McArdle just makes you feel better rather than facing the bad situation.

In seriousness, I think people don't want to re-address the Second, because they know how politically challenging that is. But to change the "gun culture" of the U.S., that may be neccessary. Otherwise, let's deal with the fact we live in a society with hundreds of millions of firearms. What practical thing can we do about that quickly?

106 Lidane  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:14am
107 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:14am

re: #100 allegro

Have you seen the law still being written? How do you know if it helps or not?

They're talking about reinstating the previous ban that did nothing. It banned nothing, took nothing out of circulation and stopped no crimes.

108 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:15am

re: #88 Skip Intro

Nah, just issue them bayonets and a broomsticks to attach them to, along with their books. If the schools can't afford both, just go with the bayonet/broomstick. You've got to keep your priorities straight here.

Cue video of Japanese civilians training for US invasion in 1945 using bamboo spears...

109 Cinnabar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:29am

re: #93 Obdicut

What is it with people like you and ellipses?

I resemble that remark....

110 Lidane  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:38am
111 S'latch  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:06:18am

Megan McArdle's idea is even more awful considering the death of at least two adults who apparently did try to rush this shooter in Newtown.

112 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:06:20am

Lets see if I got this right.....Parenting Handbook:

1. Kids....if a stranger approaches you with candy run away from them.
2. Kids....if a stranger with gun approaches you, run toward them.

113 Skip Intro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:06:21am

re: #92 Interesting Times

Arm all the things!!1!

[Embedded content]

Nice, crazy comments at the Fox site about this story. Why am I not surprised?

114 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:06:51am

Yeah, requiring transactions to be registered would help. You still have to account for private party sales somehow. If someone wants to get rid of gun, how do they do it? Sell back to a dealer?

Treating them like cars would be a good idea. I think you could get gun enthusiasts behind it, too.

115 Dr. Matt  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:07:43am

Is she auditioning for The Onion?

116 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:07:48am
I would imagine this idea comes from movies, in which highly-trained killers are incapable of hitting their target when the target is the hero. Or perhaps when she was little, McArdle's dad told her, as mine did, that Butch and Sundance really survived all those Bolivian bullets at the end of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. I also found this passage from McArdle's column quite telling:
117 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:08:17am

re: #105 Tanker J.D.

I don't know... I think it signals that I think we're facing an intractable situation, and picking on McArdle just makes you feel better rather than facing the bad situation.

In seriousness, I think people don't want to re-address the Second, because they know how politically challenging that is. But to change the "gun culture" of the U.S., that may be neccessary. Otherwise, let's deal with the fact we live in a society with hundreds of millions of firearms. What practical thing can we do about that quickly?

Gee, I dunno how intractable a problem can be when every other developed nation on earth has tracted it.

118 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:08:37am

re: #107 William Barnett-Lewis

They're talking about reinstating the previous ban that did nothing. It banned nothing, took nothing out of circulation and stopped no crimes.

more feel-good leglslation that can't or won't be enforced?

119 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:08:56am

re: #105 Tanker J.D.

I don't know... I think it signals that I think we're facing an intractable situation, and picking on McArdle just makes you feel better rather than facing the bad situation.

In seriousness, I think people don't want to re-address the Second, because they know how politically challenging that is. But to change the "gun culture" of the U.S., that may be neccessary. Otherwise, let's deal with the fact we live in a society with hundreds of millions of firearms. What practical thing can we do about that quickly?

McArdle is being picked on for making a totally stupid suggestion.

For a potential practical response go back to some earlier threads where there were some suggestions about changing classifications of some weapons within the current laws, closing some loopholes, and getting much more serious about punishing violations.

I've seen a lot more comments along those lines, and seriously none about rescinding the 2nd Amendment wholesale.

120 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:09:19am
121 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:09:26am

re: #116 Holidays are Family Fun Time

BUTCH AND SUNDANCE DIED?!?!?!

122 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:09:30am

Thanks for your thoughts, crazy lady.
Now, go play in the sandbox.

123 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:09:41am

re: #102 makeitstop

This.

If you want to kill a bunch of people and yourself, bump yourself to the head of the line.

Well, I'd rather they call a suicide help line, but I guess they are too far gone to be congnizant that they need help.

124 Polito  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:10:13am

Ok so if we had school prayer, then God might have bothered to help out the kids who were shot to death.

Pray to whose God?

125 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:10:26am

re: #105 Tanker J.D.

I don't know... I think it signals that I think we're facing an intractable situation, and picking on McArdle just makes you feel better rather than facing the bad situation.

"Picking on McArdle?" Sure, let's treat this like a serious suggestion instead.

How many kids do you think it would have taken to stop Adam Lanza by gang rushing him? And what sort of training would you propose to overcome the natural instinct to run the fuck away? Wouldn't they also need training in climbing over the increasing pile of bodies in front of them?

These are serious issues and we shouldn't just pick on poor defenseless Megan McArdle.

126 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:10:36am

re: #105 Tanker J.D.

It's not going to be 'quickly'. There's no quick solution.

127 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:10:47am

re: #116 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Ah, so the NRA should institute Imperial Stormtrooper marksmanship standards for training instead of the normal kind if they think the person in question might use their weapons for the wrong purpose.
///

128 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:11:31am

re: #124 Polito

Ok so if we had school prayer, then God might have bothered to help out the kids who were shot to death.

Pray to whose God?

The White Man's God, the only one that counts...

/

129 Dr. Matt  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:11:49am

re: #92 Interesting Times

.@mugshotsdotcom 6-yr-old brings a handgun to school at his parents' behest & HOLDS IT TO ANOTHER KID'S HEAD at recess. fox13now.com/2012/12/17/wes...!

The comments in that link are some of the more delusional I have read in a long time. They are actually blaming Obama and liberals for a school kid bringing a pistol to school. For f*ck sake....

130 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:03am
131 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:13am

re: #124 Polito

Ok so if we had school prayer, then God might have bothered to help out the kids who were shot to death.

Pray to whose God?

"Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it."

132 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:14am

Again with the cars analogy. It's like a rote memorized response.

133 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:41am

It's the usual religious right bs argument that things were just great in this country until the damn 60's took morality out of schools. Of course, people like Fischer are the same ones who think bullying people because they're gay or non-Christian is perfectly socially acceptable.

134 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:54am

Ban life.
It always ends badly anyways.
/

135 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:57am

[Is there supposed to be a pop-up when I hit the reply button? It's not working.]

Erik_t. No, that haven't "tracted" it; they never had it in the first place. Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban. Plus, no other society has or had near the number of privately owned weapons that the U.S. does. Based on our history, private gun ownership is much more a part of the culture. In fact, the a constitutional right to "keep and bear arms", even though qualified, is a rarity in modern societies.

136 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:13:03am

re: #132 Charles Johnson

Again with the cars analogy. It's like a rote memorized response.

It's a fantastic tool for learning precisely who desires to have a rational discussion.

Excuse me while I go purge facebook again.

137 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:13:08am

re: #130 Interesting Times

Cue the rude language pearl-clutching.

138 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:13:44am

re: #135 Tanker J.D.

Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban.

You are a freaking moron.

139 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:14:09am

re: #125 Charles Johnson

re: #125 Charles Johnson

"Picking on McArdle?" Sure, let's treat this like a serious suggestion instead.

How many kids do you think it would have taken to stop Adam Lanza by gang rushing him? And what sort of training would you propose to overcome the natural instinct to run the fuck away? Wouldn't they also need training in climbing over the increasing pile of bides in front of them?

These are serious issues and we shouldn't just pick on poor defensless Megan McArdle.

I agree.....this isn't a funny suggestion and it should be mocked on all levels. I coached my sons in little league in Kindergarten and First Grade. After a season of untold practices and a dozen games, there were still kids that ran toward third base when then hit the ball and others where they were putting the glove on the wrong hand. And this nitwit wants to train them to rush a gun toting stranger!!!

140 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:14:11am

re: #134 Varek Raith

Ban life.
It always ends badly anyways.
/

Image: Dark-judges-spread.jpg

141 sagehen  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:14:21am

re: #103 Kragar

The Sad Off with Samuel L. Jackson and Anne Hathaway

From Colbert --
scenes from "Breaking Bad", as performed by the cast of "Downton Abbey."

142 Interesting Times  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:15:45am

re: #135 Tanker J.D.

Erik_t. No, that haven't "tracted" it; they never had it in the first place. Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban. Plus, no other society has or had near the number of privately owned weapons that the U.S. does. Based on our history, private gun ownership is much more a part of the culture. In fact, the a constitutional right to "keep and bear arms", even though qualified, is a rarity in modern societies.

Here. Educate yourself from something other than Infowars for a change:

After a 1996 mass shooting, Australia enacted strict gun laws and it hasn't had a similar massacre since

143 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:16:11am


Uh, no Donald. That was Hurricane Sandy. Remember Sandy? Back when you were threatening the President of the United States.

144 Mattand  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:16:12am

re: #135 Tanker J.D.

Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban. Plus, no other society has or had near the number of privately owned weapons that the U.S. does. Based on our history, private gun ownership is much more a part of the culture. In fact, the a constitutional right to "keep and bear arms", even though qualified, is a rarity in modern societies.

Citation needed. Preferably one that doesn't feature the words "Fox News" or "Glenn Beck".

145 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:16:23am

re: #135 Tanker J.D.

[Is there supposed to be a pop-up when I hit the reply button? It's not working.]

Erik_t. No, that haven't "tracted" it; they never had it in the first place. Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban. Plus, no other society has or had near the number of privately owned weapons that the U.S. does. Based on our history, private gun ownership is much more a part of the culture. In fact, the a constitutional right to "keep and bear arms", even though qualified, is a rarity in modern societies.

Hurrrrrrrr.

146 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:18:04am

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts: [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

147 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:18:35am

re: #146 Tanker J.D.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts: [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Correlation and causation: how the fuck do they work?

148 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:19:05am

re: #146 Tanker J.D.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts: [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

You do realize that article is 11 years old?

149 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:19:54am

re: #135 Tanker J.D.

[Is there supposed to be a pop-up when I hit the reply button? It's not working.]

There's supposed to be a link and some identifying information about the comment you're replying to. Been a long time since you posted, eh? What kept you away? What brought you back? Surely not the need to defend McArdle.

Erik_t. No, that haven't "tracted" it; they never had it in the first place. Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban. Plus, no other society has or had near the number of privately owned weapons that the U.S. does. Based on our history, private gun ownership is much more a part of the culture. In fact, the a constitutional right to "keep and bear arms", even though qualified, is a rarity in modern societies.

If something becomes a part of the culture, it shows that 'culture' is malleable. Let's change it again.

150 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:20:00am

Crime has been steadily increasing in Great Britain since the 1950s. OBVIOUSLY IT'S DUE TO THE OCCASIONAL TIGHTENING OF GUN LAWS RATHER THAN A PERSISTENT AND PERVASIVE SOCIOECONOMIC SHIFT.

151 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:20:24am

Interesting Times: I've seen that article. It says the Aussie's got 1 million guns out of private ownership as result of their efforts, about 1/3 of what was estimated to be out there. Translate that to the U.S., and you'd hope get 100 million guns, and leave 200 million to go...

152 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:20:26am

re: #135 Tanker J.D.

Gun crime is up in U.K. after its ban.

In 2011, there were about 60 gun homicides in the UK.

In 2011, there were more than 9,000 gun homicides in the US.

153 RadicalModerate  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:20:27am

re: #132 Charles Johnson

Again with the cars analogy. It's like a rote memorized response.

One big difference that you don't see the gun nuts talk about regarding automobiles:

Every time a car sale is made, either by a dealership, or by a private individual, that sale has to be reported and registered to that state's government.
I won't even go into the fact that to operate a vehicle on a public road it must pass a state safety inspection on an annual basis.

154 Kaessa  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:22:06am

re: #22 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

[Embedded content]

My youngest son works at McDonalds (his very first job!), and they were just notified everyone that is currently full time is getting their hours cut back so the owner won't have to "Pay for Obamacare" for people.

155 Dr. Matt  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:22:13am
re: #105 Tanker J.D.
I don't know... I think it signals that I think we're facing an intractable situation, and picking on McArdle just makes you feel better rather than facing the bad situation.

re: #125 Charles Johnson
"Picking on McArdle?" Sure, let's treat this like a serious suggestion instead.

Mr. Johnson is clearly picking on Tanker J.D. Meanie

156 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:23:05am

I love it when the gun nuts try to claim that "Gun crime is UP IN THE UK by 40%!"

What they don't tell you is that the number of murders rose from about 35 to 60. But they'd have you believe that the gun crime rate is just soaring out of control.

157 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:23:17am

erik_t And by the same token, wouldn't reductions in crime more likely reflect changes in socioeconomic and cultural issues, rather than the occasional tightening of gun laws?

158 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:24:10am

re: #157 Tanker J.D.

Does the 'reply' button just confuse the shit out of you or something?

159 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:25:07am

Obdicut;
Yes.

160 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:25:24am

Charles--yes, they have a lower base line. Again, those reflect issues other than gun laws... And since the base line was so low, you can't really use it as a case study for how a ban would work in the U.S. The situations are very different. Goes back to my point that other societies haven't solved the problem, b/c they never faced the same problem.

161 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:25:49am

I wonder which stalker's sock puppet this is.

162 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:25:52am

re: #157 Tanker J.D.

erik_t And by the same token, wouldn't reductions in crime more likely reflect changes in socioeconomic and cultural issues, rather than the occasional tightening of gun laws?

A rational thinking person would expect the reduction in number of lethal weapons to have a tendency towards a reduction in the number of uses of aforementioned weapons.

MBF harder.

163 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:20am
164 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:22am

re: #160 Tanker J.D.

Charles--yes, they have a lower base line. Again, those reflect issues other than gun laws... And since the base line was so low, you can't really use it as a case study for how a ban would work in the U.S.

Then why are you citing it as a reason why gun control laws won't work?

165 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:23am

And I'm not a gun nut. Don't even own one. I just see a lot a fuzzy thinking from folks who insist they are rational.

166 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:31am

re: #153 RadicalModerate

The latter is only in some states. No inspection is required in Wisconsin, for example. The rest is correct.

167 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:44am

re: #160 Tanker J.D.

Again, those reflect issues other than gun laws.

Assertion: any proof?

And since the base line was so low, you can't really use it as a case study for how a ban would work in the U.S.

Then why did you do so?

168 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:54am

re: #164 Charles Johnson

Then why are you citing it as a reason why gun control laws won't work?

Because shut up.

169 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:27:05am

re: #167 Obdicut

Then why did you do so?

BECAUSE OMG FUZZY

170 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:27:45am

Goalpost Nascar

171 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:28:15am

Homicide rate in US is 5.2 per 100k. The rate in UK is 1.57 per 100k. We're talking about a homicide rate in the US that's more than 3x higher than the UK rate.

172 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:28:16am

re: #156 Charles Johnson

I love it when the gun nuts try to claim that "Gun crime is UP IN THE UK by 40%!"

What they don't tell you is that the number of murders rose from about 35 to 60. But they'd have you believe that the gun crime rate is just soaring out of control.

And just because someone will mention it....Great Britain has 62 million people, the US 314 Million so the US is five times the size. So the US has 28 gun murders per million people and GB has 1 per million.

173 allegro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:28:18am

re: #165 Tanker J.D.

And I'm not a gun nut. Don't even own one. I just see a lot a fuzzy thinking from folks who insist they are rational.

As you defend McCardle and think Charles is just being a meanie?

LOL Jesus... this is too much.

174 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:28:21am

re: #169 erik_t

BECAUSE OMG FUZZY

was a bear? Seriously though. When we have a fairly big segment of the population that values their guns more than they do other people. I think that's a problem.

175 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:28:33am

re: #170 jaunte

Goalpost Nascar

No, in this case they only turn right.

176 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:28:33am

re: #160 Tanker J.D.

Charles--yes, they have a lower base line. Again, those reflect issues other than gun laws... And since the base line was so low, you can't really use it as a case study for how a ban would work in the U.S. The situations are very different. Goes back to my point that other societies haven't solved the problem, b/c they never faced the same problem.

The USA has been a great experiment, in democracy, in religious freedom, in free enterprise, in (lack of) health care and in gun ownership.

We are really off track on the latter two issues.

We cannot compare ourselves to any other nation on the matter of gun control, we are so completley divergent from any other industrialized nation.

But it does not me we cannot move to fix things. There is no "silver bullet" that is going to take care of things, but I see a chance here to diminish the power of the gun lobby that has been succesful in cowing politicians to keep silent on matters that need to be addressed.

177 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:29:00am

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

178 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:30:25am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

That's because we are stupid with regards to guns.
It's easier for me to get a gun than to get a car.
Shit, I could've gotten a gun before I could legally drink.

179 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:30:30am

re: #171 lawhawk

There seem to be a lot of different numbers floating around out there, but one thing is extremely clear - the United States has an almost unbelievably high rate of murder by guns.

180 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:30:39am

Who's looking for a panacea?

181 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:30:48am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

American exceptionalism for the win LOSE!

182 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:30:57am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

Yeah. The situation in the US is that we keep fucking shooting each other.

183 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:31:13am

re: #180 jaunte

Who's looking for a panacea?

Typical RW response.
Since you can't solve it 100%, don't bother doing anything at all!

184 Skip Intro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:31:38am

re: #182 erik_t

Yeah. The situation in the US is that we keep fucking shooting each other.

Woo-Hoo! Four more just in Colorado today!

Go USA!!!

185 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:31:42am

Sol-- good points. Yeah, I think more strict licensing and registration would be good starts. I think you could get "gun nuts" behind it, too, based on teh ones I'm acquainted with.

186 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:31:43am

re: #183 Varek Raith

Typical RW response.
Since you can't solve 100%, don't bother dong anything at all!

Its worked so far.

187 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:32:10am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

Actually, no it doesn't. In fact, the opposite is true -- with a total ban on handgun possession, the gun crime rate in the UK is hundreds of times lower than the US.

Of course bans aren't a "panacea," and nobody ever said they would be. But pretending that 60 murders is the same as 9,000 is just ludicrous.

188 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:32:16am

re: #182 erik_t

"In Missouri, it’s no longer a crime for an intoxicated person to handle or fire a gun, as long as they were acting in self-defense."
[Link: www.nationalmemo.com...]

189 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:32:27am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

So we shouldn't use it to analyze what would happen in a ban here, except we should.

Got it.

And again. ... means you're leaving something out, normally that your audience is supposed to implicitly understand. It's used a lot by people who think they're making really profound points when they're just jerking off.

190 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:32:32am

re: #185 Tanker J.D.

Sol-- good points. Yeah, I think more strict licensing and registration would be good starts. I think you could get "gun nuts" behind it, too, based on teh ones I'm acquainted with.

Haha, no.
It'll never happen.
Your side is dead set against any form of gun control.

191 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:33:03am

Back to work, now. Good talking to you all that engaged civilly.

192 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:33:21am

re: #179 Charles Johnson

The numbers will depend on the year and metrics involved. The rates I used in 171 were based on United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems for 2008 for both the US and UK. That at least allows for a consistent metric.

Some of the other comparisons don't necessary compare the same year or same methodologies.

193 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:33:47am

re: #185 Tanker J.D.

Sol-- good points. Yeah, I think more strict licensing and registration would be good starts. I think you could get "gun nuts" behind it, too, based on teh ones I'm acquainted with.

I'd believe that when I'd see it. Sorry, I've got zlitch reason to trust the NRA and the gunowners organizations after they treat any politician who wants to work on the problem as a threat to the second amendment. The rank and file members can believe or get behind whatever they want but as long as they have leaders like the NRA President spouting nonsense about how the president's lack of doing anything on guns is proof that he will, they will remain part of the problem and not anyway or form part of the solution to this.

194 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:34:08am

I've seen some pretty dumb shit on the internet. I've been able to surf it for as long as I can remember.

But this may actually be the dumbest fucking thing ever, from a woman with a long line of shit-eatingly stupid commentary. When a person has a 30-round clip in a semi-automatic rifle meant for the exact purpose he used it for (shooting a high number of targets in a short period of time with a weapon that doesn't have much recoil), people charging him in a frenzy would just up the body count. What if this looney had a bomb or something on him too for that exact purpose?

Dear Ms. McCardle, please stop molesting logic.

195 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:34:14am

My "side"!? Why am I assinged a "side" now. I'm searching for solutions, and see a lot of obstacles.

196 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:34:52am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

NO ON IS TALKING ABOUT BANNING GUNS.

197 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:35:05am

Gun Lobbyist: Americans Should Be ‘Prepared’ To Take On Elected Officials With Guns

Appearing on on MSNBC’s Hardball on Monday, Pratt — who immediately after the massacre accused gun safety advocates of having blood on their hands — claimed that had teachers at Sandy Hook elementary school had firearms, the shooting could have been prevented. He added that all Americans should have guns “in order to control the government”:

CHRIS MATTHEWS (HOST): So you’re like Sharron Angle, out in Nevada, who said we need our Second Amendment rights to control when our politicians get out of hand.

PRATT: That’s our Second Amendment rights, she’s not making that up.

MATTHEWS: So how would you use your Second Amendment rights if you didn’t like the way your congressman or senator is representing you? [...]

PRATT: By being prepared. [...]

MATTHEWS: So Larry, it’s not just the right to use guns to protect your homes, it’s the right to take on your government?

PRATT: The government has been overboard.

198 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:35:06am

re: #195 Tanker J.D.

My "side"!? Why am I assinged a "side" now. I'm searching for solutions, and see a lot of obstacles.

Yes, your side.
Conservatives in general are against any form of gun control.

199 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:36:07am

re: #177 Tanker J.D.

Charles -- It does still stand for the proposition that bans aren't a panacea. The broader point, though, is that the situation in the U.S. is a lot different than in other Western nations, which others keep looking to for examples...

While I am a token conservative around here....in this case, the conservative answer is wrong. There is nothing about the US that makes us any more or less murderous than any other group of people. However we are the only country that has enshrined gun ownership in our very charter and have built a culture around guns. Combining this with wealth and we are bursting with guns. Guns just make murder, whether the angry spouse type or hosing down a large group with a machine gun, much to easy and clean. I fundamentally do not buy that we need the second amendment any more and would favor complete elimination. If it takes a constitutional amendment repeal so be it.

200 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:36:33am

re: #198 Varek Raith

Yes, your side.
Conservatives in general are against any form of gun control logic pertaining to any situation imaginable.

201 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:36:38am

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

202 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:36:51am

Was listening to NPR on the way to trivia last night. The NRA and like minded special interest groups spend tons of money. Think I heard something that they've already spent money on 200+ races for the 2014's elections already. The Brady Campaign meanwhile only spent 5000ish dollars last time. The gun lobby is a huge part of the problem here because they will treat any politician that goes against them as a threat and they have the money to wage endless ad wars.

203 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:37:20am

Oh brother.

204 erik_t  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:37:27am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Quack quack goes the non-duck.

205 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:37:30am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

It's in your profile, wise ass.

206 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:37:53am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Walk like duck.
Talk like duck.
Quack like duck.

207 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:37:58am

Based on what Big Steve said, it seems like some people around here ARE talking about repealing the second and banning guns...

208 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:00am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

...

Tanker J.D.

Former M1A1 Tank Platoon Leader, Conservative Attorney in a sea of blue

209 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:02am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Your own tag describes you as a "conservative attorney"...

210 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:16am

re: #196 Holidays are Family Fun Time

NO ON IS TALKING ABOUT BANNING GUNS.

I am. I'd like to see a total ban on private ownership of military-style semi-auto rifles. There's absolutely no valid reason for a private citizen to own such a weapon, except to kill other people.

211 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:30am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Plus, some of us remember you from the 'old days'.

212 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:35am

re: #197 Kragar

Gun Lobbyist: Americans Should Be ‘Prepared’ To Take On Elected Officials With Guns

Derpy fucking derp. And this is why I laugh when I hear crying about "union thugs" because you actually have gun lobbyists talking like this. Cowardly little shitheads.

213 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:36am

re: #209 Sol Berdinowitz

Your own tag describes you as a "conservative attorney"...

That could mean anything.
///

214 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:38:49am

re: #183 Varek Raith

Typical RW response.
Since you can't solve it 100%, don't bother doing anything at all!

Abortions will happen anyways - why bother trying to restrict it.

Gun murders will happen anyways - why bother trying to restrict it.

Marijuana will be smoked anyways - why bother trying to restrict it.

Alcohol will be consumed by people who drive cars afterwards - why bother trying to restrict it.

People will cross the US border looking for work - why bother trying to restrict it.

-- Odd how one of these doesn't seem to fit the rightwing meme machine.

215 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:39:08am

re: #207 Tanker J.D.

Based on what Big Steve said, it seems like some people around here ARE talking about repealing the second and banning guns...

I liked you better when you were leaving.

Anyway: I'm not going to feed the troll anymore. Y'all are welcome, but after citing a study, then saying we shouldn't pay attention to that study, and then saying we should really pay attention to that study-- he's obviously trolling.

216 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:39:14am

re: #213 Kragar

That could mean anything.
///

You mean, like he dresses conservatively, and always has the same thing for lunch every day?

217 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:39:45am

re: #207 Tanker J.D.

Based on what Big Steve said, it seems like some people around here ARE talking about repealing the second and banning guns...

The second you whine about "repealing the 2nd" you've completely lost any credibility, just like any other gun-nutter.

Period. I hate to be that totalitarian about it, but it's such a load of bullshit.

218 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:41:11am

re: #207 Tanker J.D.

Based on what Big Steve said, it seems like some people around here ARE talking about repealing the second and banning guns...

I am, yes. I would favor a movement to eliminate the 2nd amendment. States do not need to raise militia's and if our own government turned rogue, us citizens with our pop guns are hardly going to stop the tanks.

219 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:41:24am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Ooo... topic switch into Troll Paradigm #23.

220 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:41:29am

re: #210 Charles Johnson

I am. I'd like to see a total ban on private ownership of military-style semi-auto rifles. There's absolutely no valid reason for a private citizen to own such a weapon, except to kill other people.

that's different from banning all guns.

It's also unworkable, no one will stand by house-to-house searches. How else would one remove all guns from society?

I have no problem with an AWB that might actually work. And that's the issue, how to make it workable so it actually does what it is intended to do. I haven't heard a lot of solutions to that issue.

221 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:41:48am

No, I don't want to repeal the second but I for damn sure don't think people should have enough weapons for a military company. And I for damn sure don't think it's right that Lanza's mother knew he was messed up yet continued to have tons of weapons in their home. We have too many people in this country who think their gun is the only thing that will keep them safe. Call it paranoia, fear, whatever. We've got too many Americans who are too damned scared.

222 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:41:50am

Wolverine Fantasy dashed.

223 freetoken  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:42:06am

re: #207 Tanker J.D.

Based on what Big Steve said, it seems like some people around here ARE talking about repealing the second and banning guns...

Including me. Though I am not for the outright banning of all "guns", I do think the 2nd Amendment as it is currently written is clearly outdated.

It's a 18th century idea that no longer belongs in the 21st century.

Change it.

224 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:42:14am

I forgot about the profile! Sorry! I think of myself more libertarian these days.

So did Varek check my profile, or did Varek form an opinion based on what I was saying? I was trying to talk about effective gun regulations with an eye to the real problem of the millions already out there. I didn't think that automatically marked me as conservative.

225 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:42:19am

re: #218 Big Steve

I am, yes. I would favor a movement to eliminate the 2nd amendment. States do not need to raise militia's and if our own government turned rogue, us citizens with our pop guns are hardly going to stop the tanks.

Which is why we need to be able to purchase anti-tank weaponry at our local sporting goods store.

226 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:43:00am

re: #225 Kragar

Which is why we need to be able to purchase anti-tank weaponry at our local sporting goods store.

Two bazookas for the price of one, yo!

227 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:43:15am

re: #224 Tanker J.D.

*eye roll*

228 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:43:44am

re: #222 jaunte

Wolverine Fantasy dashed.

Shall I call you Logan, Weapon X?

229 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:44:04am

re: #225 Kragar

Which is why we need to be able to purchase anti-tank weaponry at our local sporting goods store.

Bed, Bath, and Bazookas! I think I shall register it.

230 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:44:42am

re: #229 Big Steve

Bed, Bath, and Bazookas! I think I shall register it.

I prefer the deals at Bloodbath and Beyond.

231 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:44:43am

re: #229 Big Steve

Bed, Bath, and Bazookas! I think I shall register it.

lol, love it.

232 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:44:54am

No, I was actually trying to have a discussion... That's what we're supposed to be having, yes?

I'm not whining about repealing the second. I'm noting that it's there, and that our policy has to either reflect it, or people who are serious about reform should start a movement to explicitly repeal it.

233 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:44:58am

re: #223 freetoken

Including me. Though I am not for the outright banning of all "guns", I do think the 2nd Amendment as it is currently written is clearly outdated.

It's a 18th century idea that no longer belongs in the 21st century.

Change it.

I still think if we had it clearly written that citizens have the right to self-defense, it would solve a lot of issues.

234 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:45:04am

re: #224 Tanker J.D.

I forgot about the profile! Sorry! I think of myself more libertarian these days.

Like that's any better.

So did Varek check my profile, or did Varek form an opinion based on what I was saying? I was trying to talk about effective gun regulations with an eye to the real problem of the millions already out there. I didn't think that automatically marked me as conservative.

Varek is good. He can see that you think Charles is picking on Megan McArdle and jump to an accurate conclusion.

235 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:45:19am

re: #230 Kragar

I prefer the deals at Bloodbath and Beyond.

Back in the WoW days there was a guild on my server called, Blood, Bath, and Beyond.

/nerd

236 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:45:22am

re: #230 Kragar

I prefer the deals at Bloodbath and Beyond.

Home Despot and Armory has better sales though.

237 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:45:25am

re: #223 freetoken

Including me. Though I am not for the outright banning of all "guns", I do think the 2nd Amendment as it is currently written is clearly outdated.

It's a 18th century idea that no longer belongs in the 21st century.

Change it.

I agree. The 2nd amendment was created when people were killing other people with muskets, not high-powered assault rifles that shoot giant rounds at high speed several times a second. If there's any part of the Bill of Rights that desperately needs to be revisited and adapted to modern society in the 21st century, it's the 2nd amendment.

238 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:46:39am

re: #236 Feline Fearless Leader

Home Despot and Armory has better sales though.

Sam's club always got me some good deals.

I would just threaten people with a club I borrowed from Sam.

239 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:47:24am

re: #238 Kragar

bad-dum chish!

Try the veal...

240 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:47:39am

Megan McArdle is an idiot. But at least now she'll be a famous idiot.

Oh, and one of these things is illegal to sell anywhere in the US because of the danger it poses to human life.

Image: 563723_451600031567167_2100524519_n.jpg

241 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:47:44am

re: #237 Charles Johnson

I agree. The 2nd amendment was created when people were killing other people with muskets, not high-powered assault rifles that shoot giant rounds at high speed several times a second. If there's any part of the Bill of Rights that desperately needs to be revisited and adapted to modern society in the 21st century, it's the 2nd amendment.

Seems reasonable. We revisit the other amendments to cover changes in society, so it only makes sense.

242 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:47:45am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Tanker J.D.

Former M1A1 Tank Platoon Leader, Conservative Attorney in a sea of blue

Magic.

243 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:48:25am

re: #237 Charles Johnson

I agree. The 2nd amendment was created when people were killing other people with muskets, not high-powered assault rifles that shoot giant rounds at high speed several times a second. If there's any part of the Bill of Rights that desperately needs to be revisited and adapted to modern society in the 21st century, it's the 2nd amendment.

Definitely. Arms have changed a lot since the country's founding. Plus, said amendment was written in a time without organized police forces as well. I had a work colleague point out to me that the "militia" referred to in the second was often the closest thing many areas had to law enforcement in late 18th century America. Plus, the nature of the country has changed a lot over the course of that time. We've gone from a primarily agrarian society where arms were arguably a necessity for things like hunting to a primarily urban society where few of us create or obtain our own food. It's a different time.

244 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:48:31am

re: #237 Charles Johnson

I would like to keep the "bear arms" part because otherwise it gets awfully hot in the summer with long sleeve shirts on.

245 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:48:31am

re: #237 Charles Johnson

Has technology rendered the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution obsolete?

That is, has the application of modern military design to civilian firearms produced a class of weapons too dangerous to be in general circulation?

We say: Yes.

Adam Lanza broke into the Sandy Hook Elementary School last Friday morning armed with a “sporting” version of the US military’s principal assault weapon, plus two equally deadly handguns.

In the blink of an eye, he killed 26 people — including 20 small children, all of them shot multiple times.

How many bullets did Lanza fire?

Unclear.

Did he have to pull a trigger to discharge each round?

Yes.

But the fact is that the volume of fire produced by Lanza’s semi-automatic arsenal was substantively the same as the fully automatic “gangster guns” effectively outlawed by Congress in 1934 and again in 1968.

That ban did no real violence to the 2nd Amendment, so it’s hard to see how constraining the availability of high-tech military knockoffs would do so today.

An actual crackdown, of course, will be an entirely different matter.

That's courtesy of the New York Post editorial today. That's hardly the bastion of liberalism, and they're seeing a real problem with our current life-death struggle with firearms in the US.

246 JAFO  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:48:45am

re: #240 darthstar

Megan McArdle is an idiot. But at least now she'll be a famous idiot.

Oh, and one of these things is illegal to sell anywhere in the US because of the danger it poses to human life.

Image: 563723_451600031567167_2100524519_n.jpg

I miss my Jarts.

247 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:48:53am

re: #240 darthstar

Megan McArdle is an idiot. But at least now she'll be a famous idiot.

Oh, and one of these things is illegal to sell anywhere in the US because of the danger it poses to human life.

Image: 563723_451600031567167_2100524519_n.jpg

heh. And I own the one that is illegal to sell. Purchased by family before the ban.

248 freetoken  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:49:09am

re: #237 Charles Johnson

Agreed.

All these tea partying fantasies about "the people" fighting off some tyrannical government like it's 1776 all over again are just plain nuts.

249 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:49:13am

re: #242 Varek Raith

Magic.

HE'S A SORCERER!!!

250 Lidane  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:49:41am

re: #183 Varek Raith

Typical RW response.
Since you can't solve it 100%, don't bother doing anything at all!

Yet if you apply that same logic of theirs to other issues such as abortion, they'll tell you that a Constitutional Amendment will solve everything.

251 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:49:50am

And I thought Satt was bad about saying goodbye, then not actually leaving! /

252 Dr. Matt  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:49:52am

re: #201 Tanker J.D.

Why do you think I'm conservative? I haven't stated any political principal.

Apparently you haven't read your own profile.

253 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:50:45am

re: #240 darthstar

Megan McArdle is an idiot. But at least now she'll be a famous idiot.

Oh, and one of these things is illegal to sell anywhere in the US because of the danger it poses to human life.

Image: 563723_451600031567167_2100524519_n.jpg

You know what's creepy about that rifle? It sort of looks like a toy.

254 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:50:57am

re: #234 wrenchwench

Like that's any better.

Varek is good. He can see that you think Charles is picking on Megan McArdle and jump to an accurate conclusion.

I prefer to call it magic.

255 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:51:52am

re: #248 freetoken

Agreed.

All these tea partying fantasies about "the people" fighting off some tyrannical government like it's 1776 all over again are just plain nuts.

That's part of the delusion of being a romantic. Fantasizing about a glorious past that you're lucky to have not been there for. Every romantic is guilty on that on some level. Sometimes it's trivial like the aspiring writer who wishes he could live in 20's Paris and drink with Hemingway and those dudes. Sometimes, it's more violent like thinking that you and those like you are the only real heirs of the patriots who want to make this country what it is and that those you dislike are against you and like the enemy.

256 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:52:39am

re: #235 Ghost of Tom Joad

Back in the WoW days there was a guild on my server called, Blood, Bath, and Beyond.

/nerd

I believe there was once a mention of Bloodbath & Beyond on The Simpsons.

257 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:52:54am

re: #248 freetoken

Agreed.

All these tea partying fantasies about "the people" fighting off some tyrannical government like it's 1776 all over again are just plain nuts.

It's more than that. It's usually just their sugar-coated way of saying they'd like to shoot a liberal or ni-CLANG because, hey, MAN-CARD. Has nothing to do with 'government.'

258 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:52:54am

re: #246 JAFO

I miss my Jarts.

Yea, they banned them in order to make the magic-users less dangerous and limit them to hand-to-hand stuff like daggers. Instead the M-Us just went out and developed enhanced and boosted fireballs. Law of Unintended Consequences. The barbarians were quite upset and things snowballed from there.
//

259 Dr. Matt  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:53:01am

re: #248 freetoken

Agreed.

All these tea partying fantasies about "the people" fighting off some tyrannical government like it's 1776 all over again are just plain nuts.

They have watched [the original] 'Red Dawn' one too many times.

260 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:53:27am

re: #256 makeitstop

I believe there was once a mention of Bloodbath & Beyond on The Simpsons.

Image: Bloodbath_%26_beyond_gun_shop.png

261 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:53:39am

re: #256 makeitstop

I believe there was once a mention of Bloodbath & Beyond on The Simpsons.

I think they showed it. Simpsons has some clever stuff like that. There was an I.P.O Fridays once where Homer did his stocks.

262 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:53:43am

re: #253 Gus

You know what's creepy about that rifle? It sort of looks like a toy.

No orange on it anywhere

263 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:54:29am

re: #259 Dr. Matt

They have watched [the original] 'Red Dawn' one too many times.

Watch "1776" too many times and you get the idea that people in that time period were not fond of John Adams.

264 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:55:01am
265 Destro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:55:07am

I will make sure my kids rush Republicans on sight....

266 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:55:18am

It's about a fantasy of a tyrant that doesn't exist. It's why they always compare themselves to truly oppressed people like the Jews of occupied Europe or dissidents in the Eastern Bloc or whatever. If you see yourself as a victim and a martyr, anything's justified, even murder.

267 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:56:42am

re: #264 Varek Raith

[Embedded content]

That whole episode took the Gun Cult thing over the top -- but maybe not.

268 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:56:43am

re: #248 freetoken

Agreed.

All these tea partying fantasies about "the people" fighting off some tyrannical government like it's 1776 all over again are just plain nuts.

"Freeman Arms" is apparently selling guns over the internet.

269 palomino  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:57:02am

McArdle's views here represent the aspects of libertarianism that I have always found lacking, namely a "can't do" attitude regarding govt. action. Like most libertarians, she recognizes deep problems in our society, but doesn't really want to do much about them because proposed solutions might not work. It seems to me to be about the most defeatist, least courageous response one could have. "It might fail, so fuck it, let's not even try."

Ironically she admits that gun control would have a positive effect, but in typical fashion, just gives up and resorts to bromides about "that ship having sailed."

Training anyone other than a soldier or police officer to run towards the gunfire is both absurd and reckless. So many constructive solutions out there, and this is what she proposes?

270 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:57:11am

Honestly, I would try to keep the word "ban" out of the conversation. Find something else "restrict"?

Why, it is one of those words that drives the Wingnuts off the cliff. You won't get anywhere near a workable compromise if the word "ban" is used.

271 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:57:18am

The author claims he had all the mental health resources one could ask for, wrong, in theory his mother had the monetary means to provide help, but the fact is that she did not. She removed Adam from school rather than than get him mental health help and then home-schooled him in isolation in her home.

Next the author claims the school had an entry system but that it failed to stop the Adam. This is true, the school installed a camera and monitor, they installed an electric lock on the front door, what they did not do is to replace the window glass with laminated impact resistant glass. The entry system was useless when all anyone had to do was break the window alongside the doors to gain entry.

Then the author goes on to the tired and non-factual "a gun is a gun is a gun" argument claiming that they are all equally capable of mass murder. This is false, the hunting rifle argument that she so blithely dismisses is made because most are single shot with bolt action or have perhaps a four round internal magazine. It isn't that the bullets do less damage, they don't, it is that they are very slow to reload making it much more difficult to shoot large numbers of people.

Compare that to the Bushmaster .223 rifle Adam used in the school shooting with multiple 30 round magazines that allow the gun to be reloaded in two seconds or less. Adam never would have been able to fire anything like the number of rounds he did with a non-military style weapon, the police would have been there first. Also just for the authors information a .223 round will easily penetrate standard police body armor, you need ceramic plate armor to stop that type of round.

We are then told that even banning semi-automatic weapons completely is futile because of threat posed by shotguns. Why would we go to all the time and effort to ban semi-automatic firearms and not address shotguns also? Shotguns could also be limited to a four round magazine tube making only five shots (one in the chamber, four in the tube) possible before reloading. This would still be perfectly fine for any conceivable hunting use but would help to limit the number of casualties in a mass shooting. At the very least it gives the survivors of the first barrage an opportunity to run while the shooter is trying to reload.

Rather than spend my day deconstructing the rest of her faulty arguments and creating a TLDR screed I will stop here. If you use your common sense I am sure most everyone can see thru her intellectually lazy and unsupported assertions for themselves. I only have one more point to address, teaching first graders to charge a gunman is quite frankly an insane proposition. Perhaps Megan should have a chat with a mental health provider just to make sure that this was only a one time occurrence brought on by the stress of dealing with this shooting?

(cross-posted to the original article too)

272 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:58:05am

re: #262 Holidays are Family Fun Time

No orange on it anywhere

Looks like a Federation intergalactic cargo ship.

273 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:58:58am

re: #246 JAFO

I miss my Jarts.

Don't play with Jarts if you're wearing Jorts. That's what I've always heard.

274 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:58:59am

Boom!

275 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:59:24am

re: #270 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Honestly, I would try to keep the word "ban" out of the conversation. Find something else "restrict"?

Why, it is one of those words that drives the Wingnuts off the cliff. You won't get anywhere near a workable compromise if the word "ban" is used.

Image: ban.jpg

276 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:59:39am

I do come by my healthy fear of guns legitimately. Lived in upstate NY (Syracuse) as a kid. Two of us were visiting a third friend and we were probably about 2nd or third grade....this is in the 60's. We were down in their basement watching TV and Johnny, whose house were were at, got one of his fathers rifles out of a display cabinet. Now Johnny's father kept the guns unloaded and had safely hid the bullets but years of snooping and Johnny knew they were hidden in a box behind the furnace. So he loads the gun which fortunately was only a 22 and he is fucking around pretending he is "the Rifleman" when the gun goes off. The bullet ricocheted several times off the cinder block walls and even today I can still hear those pings. His mother came roaring down the stairs and no one was hurt but we had within minutes multiple mothers all screaming, the police arriving, and father's about to get into fights.

277 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:00:10pm

re: #275 Feline Fearless Leader

Image: ban.jpg

Yeah, that product doesn't work either

(ggt ducks)

278 dragonfire1981  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:00:19pm

re: #275 Feline Fearless Leader

Image: ban.jpg

Well the most accurate term would be "regulate" but they hate that one too despite the fact it is actually IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT!.

279 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:00:21pm

re: #207 Tanker J.D.

Based on what Big Steve said, it seems like some people around here ARE talking about repealing the second and banning guns...

I think we could ban assault weapons, clips that hold > 10 rounds, etc. and still protect the 2nd Amendment. The right to bear arms shouldn't outweigh the right to life, liberty, happiness and the pursuit of Blue's Clues. There is no practical purpose for any civilian to own an assault rifle. If someone wants to fire an assault rifle, let them join the military, or allow for licensed assault rifle firing ranges where people can rent a weapon that is only used within said range - hell, I'd open my own assault rifle rental shop in that case...and add a banquet room so it could be used for frat parties and bachelor parties. I'd make a fuckin' million off the couch warriors...and even increase profit by using light loads...they'll never know the difference.

280 dragonfire1981  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:01:14pm

re: #275 Feline Fearless Leader

Image: ban.jpg

I'll see your ban and raise you a Ray ban.

281 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:01:20pm

re: #253 Gus

You know what's creepy about that rifle? It sort of looks like a toy.

It is a toy to the person that owns it. It has waaaay too much extraneous geardo bullshit attached to it to be practical (i.e. used by police / military).

282 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:01:33pm

re: #279 darthstar

I think we could ban assault weapons, clips that hold > 10 rounds, etc. and still protect the 2nd Amendment. The right to bear arms shouldn't outweigh the right to life, liberty, happiness and the pursuit of Blue's Clues. There is no practical purpose for any civilian to own an assault rifle. If someone wants to fire an assault rifle, let them join the military, or allow for licensed assault rifle firing ranges where people can rent a weapon that is only used within said range - hell, I'd open my own assault rifle rental shop in that case...and add a banquet room so it could be used for frat parties and bachelor parties. I'd make a fuckin' million off the couch warriors...and even increase profit by using light loads...they'll never know the difference.

I agree, but one needs to clearly define "Assault Rifle".

283 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:01:34pm

re: #248 freetoken

Agreed.

All these tea partying fantasies about "the people" fighting off some tyrannical government like it's 1776 all over again are just plain nuts.

Last I heard, our government was elected freely and fairly. It excercises its powers according to law and the current interpretation of the Constitution and its amendments.

And our military is of the people. I can hardly imagine that any potential tyrannical usurper could convince most of our military to turn on their fellow citizens in order to repress them.

That is one of the fruits of 200 years of freedom and democracy in this country.

284 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:02:25pm

re: #280 dragonfire1981

I'll see your ban and raise you a Ray ban.

What kind of Rays do they protect from?

Or should I still shop for a gold-line Tin Foil hat?

:0

285 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:04:23pm

re: #284 Holidays are Family Fun Time

What kind of Rays do they protect from?

Or should I still shop for a gold-line Tin Foil hat?

:0

Seems to attract some kinds of Rays. But worth it for the piano playing!

Image: ray_charles.jpg

286 Lidane  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:04:50pm

re: #235 Ghost of Tom Joad

Back in the WoW days there was a guild on my server called, Blood, Bath, and Beyond.

/nerd

There were some great guild names in WoW. I remember a few like Built Horde Tough and Gnomeland Security. Yeah, I laughed. XD

287 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:06:18pm

re: #285 Feline Fearless Leader

Seems to attract some kinds of Rays. But worth it for the piano playing!

Image: ray_charles.jpg

I could become a musical genius? How come no one told me?

288 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:06:29pm

re: #270 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Honestly, I would try to keep the word "ban" out of the conversation. Find something else "restrict"?

Why, it is one of those words that drives the Wingnuts off the cliff. You won't get anywhere near a workable compromise if the word "ban" is used.

Yet they would have no problems at all banning pornography, or banning certain subjects from school books.

289 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:06:44pm
290 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:07:04pm

re: #288 makeitstop

Yet they would have no problems at all banning pornography, or banning certain subjects from school books.

Or banning certain medical procedures.

291 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:07:05pm

re: #289 Gus

Image: ban_ki-moon_portrait.jpg

He's not wearing Ray Bans.

292 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:07:50pm

re: #290 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Or banning certain medical procedures.

Yeah, but put that word with guns and all hell will break loose. It's a defininte conversations stopper. I think it's some hidden manchurian code that brings out the Fox News Drone in them.

293 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:07:54pm

re: #282 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I agree, but one needs to clearly define "Assault Rifle".

How about we define 'hunting' and 'sport' rifles? Identify standard calibers (.30-30, .30-06, .308, etc. as well as shot-gun guages 410, 20, 16, 12), action (pump, bolt, lever, semi-automatic with six round capacity, and single-shot), and barrel length(or choke for shotguns - which there are already regulations for).

If it doesn't fit within the definition above, it gets melted.

Hand-guns would be similarly defined.

294 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:08:01pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

Typical RW response.
Since you can't solve it 100%, don't bother doing anything at all!

Unless its abortion and teh gays.

295 dragonfire1981  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:08:30pm

If anyone is thinking of ditching Facebook, I may be right behind you soon:

Facebook to introduce auto play video ads in 2013

296 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:08:47pm

re: #270 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Honestly, I would try to keep the word "ban" out of the conversation. Find something else "restrict"?

Why, it is one of those words that drives the Wingnuts off the cliff. You won't get anywhere near a workable compromise if the word "ban" is used.

The meme I've been using is: I want firearms in the hands of trained and responsible people. If they aren't trained and responsible they should not have access.

That phrase "trained and responsible" is a core claim of pro-gun groups. Asking them why they want to allow untrained and irresponsible people to have access hits them cleanly.

That it is what I want is a bonus.

297 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:10:00pm

Pastor Takes Credit for 2011 DC Earthquake

He told Roth that his group went to Washington in 2011 to issue a Baal divorce decree [PDF], which he maintains frees places from control of the demonic god Baal, and that God responded with the August 23rd earthquake which was felt along the east coast. He said the earthquake’s damage to the Washington Monument, the Scottish Rite Temple and the National Cathedral is no coincidence but divine punishment for masonry. “God continues to amaze us all the time,” Benefiel said, “We just did what God says to do and he follows up with this great act.”

You sir are one bat shit crazy motherfucker.

298 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:10:53pm

re: #296 kirkspencer

The meme I've been using is: I want firearms in the hands of trained and responsible people. If they aren't trained and responsible they should not have access.

That phrase "trained and responsible" is a core claim of pro-gun groups. Asking them why they want to allow untrained and irresponsible people to have access hits them cleanly.

That it is what I want is a bonus.

That's good. And I agree, but we are talking Rhetoric . . .

Then they'll ask "Who get's to decide if they are trained and responsible?"

If your answer is the government, be prepared for a long winded rant.

299 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:11:39pm

re: #291 Holidays are Family Fun Time

He's not wearing Ray Bans.

Image: Ban-Ki-Moon-Ray-Bans.jpg

300 Ming  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:12:02pm

I've always admired Megan McArdle's writings in economics, but when I read what she's suggesting in regard to kids and classroom shooters, I have to wonder if she has children of her own. Or if she knows any normal family with kids. As crazy as that sounds, it fits her crazy advice.

Parents in other countries must be looking at us now, and wondering what the heck is wrong with the USA. Kind of like when a major party nominated Sarah Palin for Vice President.

301 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:12:48pm

re: #299 Gus

Image: Ban-Ki-Moon-Ray-Bans.jpg

they just don't make him look cool or musical.

302 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:13:37pm

re: #297 Kragar

Pastor Takes Credit for 2011 DC Earthquake

You sir are one bat shit crazy motherfucker.

Without "masonry" being capitalized to indicate it's a reference to the Masons I find that remark amusing in an anti-technology sense.

303 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:13:49pm

Discovery Channel kicks Ted Nugent to the curb

Speaking to Raw Story in remarks specified as “not for attribution,” a spokesperson admitted that “Ted Nugent’s Gun Country” didn’t do very well when it aired in October, even with fellow firearms fashionistas. Nielsen Ratings placed the viewership at about 864,000 people in all. But the network’s decision is not just about the numbers.

After Friday’s devastating massacre at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, the spokesperson said that Nugent would definitely not be returning to the Discovery Channel.

304 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:13:55pm

re: #240 darthstar

Megan McArdle is an idiot. But at least now she'll be a famous idiot.

Oh, and one of these things is illegal to sell anywhere in the US because of the danger it poses to human life.

Image: 563723_451600031567167_2100524519_n.jpg

Holy crap...there's a song about the end of the Lawn Dart.

305 uncah91  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:15:20pm

Anyone know of any good stats at what weapons are used in murders in the U.S.? I'm thinking here of at least rifle vs. handgun vs. non-firearm.

Although maybe just number of dead per incident would be enough to infer something.

Because the current conversation about high capacity, high rate of fire weapons really only applies to these mass shooting events. I'm guessing most of the gun deaths in the U.S. could happen just as easily with a 8-round semi-auto handgun.

306 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:16:07pm

re: #297 Kragar

Kinda tough to take him seriously. Why not come out say in July 2011 and say that he's doing Ba'al's bidding and that these sites will be damaged.

After the effect? Not so much.

Just imagine the weapons grade crazy one could come up with based on any event that happens when suitably rewritten as this guy did for the DC quake.

307 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:16:14pm

re: #270 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Honestly, I would try to keep the word "ban" out of the conversation. Find something else "restrict"?

Why, it is one of those words that drives the Wingnuts off the cliff. You won't get anywhere near a workable compromise if the word "ban" is used.

Come on! Let's face it - the pro-gun lobby is going to fight like mad demons against any and all attempts to regulate gun ownership, whether it's called a "ban" or not. They've been doing this for decades.

One of the first rules of negotiating is that you don't negotiate with yourself. You don't pre-emptively water down your positions to try to get concessions from the other party - especially when you know the other party is not going negotiate in good faith, and the pro-gun lobby is about as far from good faith as it's possible to be.

308 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:16:25pm

Utah 6th grader takes gun to school, says parents encouraged him

An 11-year-old boy in Utah reportedly told classmates that his parents recommended that he take a gun to school for defense after the recent mass shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut.

According to KSTU, students at West Kearns Elementary School notified teachers after the sixth grader pulled a .22 caliber pistol out of his backpack on Monday morning.

“At recess, he pointed a gun to my head and said he was going to kill me,” fellow classmate Isabel Rios recalled.

Granite School District spokesperson Ben Horsley said that after the staff was informed, the boy was “apprehended in 30 to 45 seconds and immediately brought down to the office and the police were on site within five to 10 minutes.”

Several parents told the Fox station that they were disappointed that the school had only notified them with a pre-recorded message at 5:30 p.m., after the the students were already home.

“There was no lockdown,” parent John Klaus explained. “No one was called. Nothing was done. And then we had to hear it from our kids.”

309 uncah91  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:16:45pm

re: #296 kirkspencer

The meme I've been using is: I want firearms in the hands of trained and responsible people. If they aren't trained and responsible they should not have access.

That phrase "trained and responsible" is a core claim of pro-gun groups. Asking them why they want to allow untrained and irresponsible people to have access hits them cleanly.

That it is what I want is a bonus.

Although, right now there is a fair amount of evidence to say that the guns used in Newtown would have been unaffected by that kind of standard.

310 dragonfire1981  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:18:18pm

re: #308 Kragar

Utah 6th grader takes gun to school, says parents encouraged him

I wonder if the kid is related to Bryan Fischer?

311 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:18:28pm

re: #305 uncah91

Asked and answered.

312 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:18:56pm

re: #305 uncah91

Anyone know of any good stats at what weapons are used in murders in the U.S.? I'm thinking here of at least rifle vs. handgun vs. non-firearm.

Although maybe just number of dead per incident would be enough to infer something.

Because the current conversation about high capacity, high rate of fire weapons really only applies to these mass shooting events. I'm guessing most of the gun deaths in the U.S. could happen just as easily with a 8-round semi-auto handgun.

You can get that from the WISQARS, IIRC. google it as I don't have the link anymore.

FBI may have better data.

313 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:19:55pm

re: #298 Holidays are Family Fun Time

That's good. And I agree, but we are talking Rhetoric . . .

Then they'll ask "Who get's to decide if they are trained and responsible?"

If your answer is the government, be prepared for a long winded rant.

The answer to THAT is easy. The same people that would make sure teachers are trained and responsible, were schools to arm teachers, as they suggest...

314 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:21:11pm

re: #307 Charles Johnson

Come on! Let's face it - the pro-gun lobby is going to fight like mad demons against any and all attempts to regulate gun ownership, whether it's called a "ban" or not. They've been doing this for decades.

One of the first rules of negotiating is that you don't negotiate with yourself. You don't pre-emptively water down your positions to try to get concessions from the other party - especially when you know the other party is not going negotiate in good faith, and the pro-gun lobby is about as far from good faith as it's possible to be.

This may be a male/female communication thing. I can tell you that when I try to discuss the subject with my family and friends, they shut down all thought at the word "ban" and start screaming. If I choose another word, we actually get somewhere in the conversation.

Believe it or not, all members of the NRA are not totally nuts about it. They can be reached.

315 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:21:13pm

re: #308 Kragar

Utah 6th grader takes gun to school, says parents encouraged him

Those parents are obviously trained and responsible.

(Do I really need sarc tags here?)

316 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:21:14pm

Wow...best worker's comp claim ever.

During the sex, a glass light fitting was torn from its mount above the bed and landed on her face, injuring her nose and mouth. She later suffered depression and was unable to continue working for the government.

317 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:24:59pm

re: #307 Charles Johnson

Come on! Let's face it - the pro-gun lobby is going to fight like mad demons against any and all attempts to regulate gun ownership, whether it's called a "ban" or not. They've been doing this for decades.

One of the first rules of negotiating is that you don't negotiate with yourself. You don't pre-emptively water down your positions to try to get concessions from the other party - especially when you know the other party is not going negotiate in good faith, and the pro-gun lobby is about as far from good faith as it's possible to be.

I still like Shiplord Kirel's suggestion to put guns like the Bushmaster .223 that Lanza was using into the same NFA class as machine guns, which likewise have no legitimate use besides to kill a whole of people quickly. There will be the argument, which is not without weight, that that constitutes an effective ban on such weapons because the average American will not be able to afford the cost and go through the trouble of obtaining an NFA class III license just to buy such a rifle. But it's also on solid Constitutional grounds, as seen in US v. Miller.

318 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:25:16pm

How are we going to regulate/restrict/ban the AWB?

What is actually proposed?

Pass the law, then what?

319 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:25:19pm

another right wing approach to doing nothing:

The 2nd Amendment was not put into the Bill of Rights so citizens could protect themselves from each other. It was put into the Bill of Rights so citizens could protect themselves from the government. Therefore the ordinary citizen should have the right to be at least as well armed as their local police / SWAT unit. If you really want to restrict these types of weapons from the general public then start by taking them away from the police.

then we devolve back to one of the more brain dead lines of debate

What's that you say? The police need those weapons to fight criminals? Then how will any more gun legislation keep criminals from getting these weapons? They're criminals. They don't obey the law as it is. More laws won't make any difference.

indeed, why have any laws? criminals will just break them

320 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:26:48pm

re: #311 lawhawk

Note that the FBI has categories of handguns, rifles, shotguns, and firearms (unknown type). I'd have to check further to see how they define rifle.

A quick look at the data shows that the overwhelming majority of murders are by firearms, and the majority of firearms murders are by handguns, not rifles or shotguns.

That would seem to indicate that the murder rate wouldn't be greatly affected by an assault weapons ban, but it would reduce chances of a mass murder/spree killing.

321 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:27:07pm

re: #318 Holidays are Family Fun Time

How are we going to regulate/restrict/ban the AWB?

What is actually proposed?

Pass the law, then what?

We won't know until Feinstein submits it in January.

322 GunstarGreen  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:27:58pm

re: #295 dragonfire1981

If anyone is thinking of ditching Facebook, I may be right behind you soon:

Facebook to introduce auto play video ads in 2013

Anyone that's been using Facebook in the past two years is a "dumb fuck".

Not my words, just those of Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Facebook.

323 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:28:06pm

re: #317 Targetpractice

I still like Shiplord Kirel's suggestion to put guns like the Bushmaster .223 that Lanza was using into the same NFA class as machine guns, which likewise have no legitimate use besides to kill a whole of people quickly. There will be the argument, which is not without weight, that that constitutes an effective ban on such weapons because the average American will not be able to afford the cost and go through the trouble of obtaining an NFA class III license just to buy such a rifle. But it's also on solid Constitutional grounds, as seen in US v. Miller.

I agree, it's a good start to talk about making "assault rifles" illegal for private citizens. However, the vast majority of gun crime in America isn't committed with semi-auto rifles, but with handguns.

Banning semi-auto military-style weapons might help prevent mass killings like Newtown, so it's a worthy goal. But it probably won't do much on its own to change the US's appalling rate of gun homicide.

324 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:28:26pm

BTW has anyone else brought up that Megan Mcardle works for the Koch brothers?

325 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:29:11pm

Arizona Electors Keep The Birther Fight Alive

The latest battle for the movement that believes Barack Obama is ineligible to be President was fought Monday at the state’s Electoral College vote, where a trio of Republican electors — including state GOP chair Tom Morrissey — once again raised concerns that Obama’s birth certificate is a fake during the electoral college vote.

They were rebuffed by other Republicans in the room, including Gov. Jan Brewer. National Republicans have also distanced themselves from the birther movement. But in Arizona, the birthers aren’t going quietly, even if they do recognize that they are going.

Morrissey, the leader of the Republican Party in Arizona and a former Chief Deputy U.S. Marshal for the state, tried to present his concerns over Obama’s eligibility as something other than birtherism.

“My issue isn’t whether he was born here,” he told KFYI radio in Phoenix Monday. “I have questions [about Obama’s longform birth cerfiticate]. … You know, I have a law enforcement background. I come at this with a little different perspective. It just doesn’t ring right with me.”

326 uncah91  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:30:37pm

re: #311 lawhawk

Asked and answered.

Seems pretty clear that "assault weapons" (unless you are including high-capacity handguns in that definition) aren't what is driving the U.S. murder rate. And remember, the death rate due to firearms is driven more by suicide than by murder, which is going to be even more skewed towards handguns.

Note: My stance is that I want to limit the size of ALL magazines to 6 bullets. I think concentrating on "assault weapons" is to easily gamed by the gun industry.

327 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:30:48pm

re: #320 lawhawk

Note that the FBI has categories of handguns, rifles, shotguns, and firearms (unknown type). I'd have to check further to see how they define rifle.

A quick look at the data shows that the overwhelming majority of murders are by firearms, and the majority of firearms murders are by handguns, not rifles or shotguns.

That would seem to indicate that the murder rate wouldn't be greatly affected by an assault weapons ban, but it would reduce chances of a mass murder/spree killing.

What about the assalt weapons that are already out there. How are they going to regulated--are they going to be grandfathered in? If not , how are they going to be removed from citizen's possession? Will there be funding to do so from all citizens or just those that are registered or on some list somewhere? Amnesty program with funds for a buy-back program?

Does anyone understand where I am coming from?

328 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:31:28pm

re: #324 watching you tiny alien kittens are

BTW has anyone else brought up that Megan Mcardle works for the Koch brothers?

ah!

329 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:32:52pm

re: #323 Charles Johnson

I agree, it's a good start to talk about making "assault rifles" illegal for private citizens. However, the vast majority of gun crime in America isn't committed with semi-auto rifles, but with handguns.

Banning semi-auto military-style weapons might help prevent mass killings like Newtown, so it's a worthy goal. But it probably won't do much on its own to change the US's appalling rate of gun homicide.

Any such ban would run smack into Heller, where any legal challenges would argue that handguns have legitimate, lawful uses and as such citizens cannot be banned from owning them. You might write a very narrow bill, targeting specific models of handgun whose lawful usage is arguable, but it would still be challenged and likely hinge on the make-up of the court.

330 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:33:49pm

re: #309 uncah91

Although, right now there is a fair amount of evidence to say that the guns used in Newtown would have been unaffected by that kind of standard.

Really? The mother was responsible? I'm beginning to think not, given she allowed her son that she knew had problems to have access to the weapons.

331 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:34:33pm

re: #329 Targetpractice

I know. That's why eventually I think America is going to be forced to address the larger issue of redesigning the 2nd Amendment.

It will probably take a lot more horrific atrocities to get us to that point, but don't worry. They'll happen.

332 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:34:57pm

re: #326 uncah91

The FBI Table 20 is reflective of murders, not suicides, but your point is taken about the role of firearms in suicides.

333 uncah91  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:36:36pm

re: #330 kirkspencer

Really? The mother was responsible? I'm beginning to think not, given she allowed her son that she knew had problems to have access to the weapons.

Think about the how a standard like that would be have to be enforced. She takes training when she buys the guns, passes a certification test, re-certifies every so often.

By accounts, she was an active "prepper" who regularly went to a gun range. She would be able to pass those tests.

334 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:38:45pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

I know. That's why eventually I think America is going to be forced to address the larger issue of redesigning the 2nd Amendment.

It will probably take a lot more horrific atrocities to get us to that point, but don't worry. They'll happen.

I'll be honest Charles, I think that's flirting with disaster. Personally I think any such effort will precede or be part of the immediate aftermath of a second American Civil War.

336 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:40:24pm

re: #327 Holidays are Family Fun Time

As with the original assault weapons ban, there'd be grandfathered exceptions and other measures to address only new weapons. There was a date stamp requirement on a large capacity ammunition feeding device (magazine, clip), but that expired when the ban was not renewed. The ban would have restricted those large capacity ammo feeding devices on or after the date of the ban.

337 uncah91  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:41:01pm

re: #332 lawhawk

The FBI Table 20 is reflective of murders, not suicides, but your point is taken about the role of firearms in suicides.

That was my point, suicides aren't on that table, so gun deaths overall are going to skew even more towards handguns.

I don't think we can eliminate handguns right now. So we need to push for meaningful regulation and education.

Further thoughts on this page

338 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:41:57pm

re: #335 Kragar

Republican lawmaker with top NRA rating blames Democrats for lax gun control

You've got to me kidding me. Guy makes a career out of calling Democrats gun takers and now he's saying that their policies are too lax. Which is it, asshole?

339 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:42:59pm

GAAAAAHHHHH!

340 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:43:49pm

Family Research Council sued for Sexual Harassment, Discrimination

According to court documents first obtained and reported by journalist Evan Gahr, former FRC employee Moira Gaul, 42, filed a complaint in 2009 with the District of Columbia Human Rights Commission in which she accused her supervisor of gender discrimination. She claimed that her boss, the director of the Center for Human Life and Bioethics at the time, referred to the use of birth control pills as "whoring around," addressed emails to her with the words "hi cutie," pressured her to attend parties, and referred to her as a "young, attractive woman."

"His attitude toward me and other women was rude, belittling, and at times, angry," she wrote in the complaint.

341 uncah91  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:43:55pm

re: #338 HappyWarrior

You've got to me kidding me. Guy makes a career out of calling Democrats gun takers and now he's saying that their policies are too lax. Which is it, asshole?

Pat Buchanan blamed the Democrats for getting us into Iraq. Because they didn't play the part of the opposition party well enough. Or something.

342 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:44:16pm

re: #339 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

GAAAAAHHHHH!

[Embedded content]

Fine get an imam and see what Bryan says.

343 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:44:31pm

re: #339 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

GAAAAAHHHHH!

[Embedded content]

I petition to have the shaman removed from Congress.

344 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:45:28pm

re: #339 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

GAAAAAHHHHH!

[Embedded content]

Tell you what, Bryan, I'll agree to that so long as students are also lead in prayer towards Mecca during those times when it falls during school hours.

How's that sound?

345 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:45:31pm
346 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:46:33pm

re: #336 lawhawk

As with the original assault weapons ban, there'd be grandfathered exceptions and other measures to address only new weapons. There was a date stamp requirement on a large capacity ammunition feeding device (magazine, clip), but that expired when the ban was not renewed. The ban would have restricted those large capacity ammo feeding devices on or after the date of the ban.

So, nothing will change. Really,

Kids will still die.

347 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:46:48pm

What part of forced prayer don't they get? Listen, despite what Fischer believes. You are allowed to pray in public schools. You know how I know that? Because I did it a few times as a kid. Schools or any public instiution shouldn't be able to force people to pray. Gosh, you'd think that someone supposedly versed in religion like Fischer would get that prayer isn't special if it's forced on people. It's just a forced prayer.

348 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:47:16pm
349 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:47:25pm

re: #344 Targetpractice

Tell you what, Bryan, I'll agree to that so long as students are also lead in prayer towards Mecca during those times when it falls during school hours.

How's that sound?

Or are allowed to pray to his holiness, Joe Pesci.

350 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:47:34pm

re: #347 HappyWarrior

What part of forced prayer don't they get? Listen, despite what Fischer believes. You are allowed to pray in public schools. You know how I know that? Because I did it a few times as a kid. Schools or any public instiution shouldn't be able to force people to pray. Gosh, you'd think that someone supposedly versed in religion like Fischer would get that prayer isn't special if it's forced on people. It's just a forced prayer.

So long as there are pop quizzes, there will be prayer in school.

351 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:47:49pm

re: #348 Gus

[Embedded content]

In addition to cancelling its popular “American Guns” reality show, The Discovery Channel confirmed to Raw Story on Tuesday that firearms enthusiast Ted Nugent will also not be returning to the channel in any form or fashion.

352 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:48:09pm

re: #350 Targetpractice

So long as there are math pop quizzes, there will be prayer in school.

Fixed with a personal twist :).

353 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:48:35pm

re: #329 Targetpractice

Any such ban would run smack into Heller, where any legal challenges would argue that handguns have legitimate, lawful uses and as such citizens cannot be banned from owning them. You might write a very narrow bill, targeting specific models of handgun whose lawful usage is arguable, but it would still be challenged and likely hinge on the make-up of the court.

The Firearms Act of 1934 put severe restrictions on smooth-bore and fully automatic handguns, as well as (other) machine guns, suppressors, etc. It held up in US vs. Miller. I think it would be possible to add a restriction by magazine capacity. According to the Mother Jones article we have cited several times, semi-auto handguns made up just under half the weapons used by mass shooters between 1982 and 2012, far more than any other type listed. Specifically, there were 68 semi-auto handguns, 35 "assault weapons," 20 revolvers and 19 shotguns. Interestingly, not one of these killers used a manual action rifle.

354 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:49:59pm
355 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:50:07pm

re: #353 Shiplord Kirel

The Firearms Act of 1934 put severe restrictions on smooth-bore and fully automatic handguns, as well as (other) machine guns, suppressors, etc. It held up in US vs. Miller. I think it would be possible to add a restriction by magazine capacity. According to the Mother Jones article we have cited several times, semi-auto handguns made up just under half the weapons used by mass shooters between 1982 and 2012, far more than any other type listed. Specifically, there were 68 semi-auto handguns, 35 "assault weapons," 20 revolvers and 19 shotguns. Interestingly, not one of these killers used a manual action rifle.

Theoretically plausible, but I worry that might simply incite them to attack the NFA itself, which they've been sputtering off and on for decades is unconstitutional.

356 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:50:10pm

re: #244 Big Steve

I would like to keep the "bear arms" part because otherwise it gets awfully hot in the summer with long sleeve shirts on.

If you have "bear arms" you should probably shave all the fur off them. You'll find that cools things off a bit.

357 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:50:32pm

re: #324 watching you tiny alien kittens are

BTW has anyone else brought up that Megan Mcardle works for the Koch brothers?

I'm starting to think that 85% of those who identify as 'libertarians' are funded by the Koch brothers.

358 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:51:09pm

Honestly, I'd suggest that forcing prayer trivializes prayer. Allowing the individual to have his or her own personal prayer is better. I guess that's one thing I've never gotten about people like Fischer or Huckabee who really desire a system in which we force people to pray. It's not as powerful if you're praying because you have to. If you're praying to God, Allah, whoever, because you really want to. That's going to get you much greater spiritual sanctification.

359 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:51:11pm

re: #357 wrenchwench

I'm starting to think that 85% of those who identify as 'libertarians' are funded by the Koch brothers.

Yes, as I understand it the Koch Foundation was rebranded as Cato, some time ago.

360 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:51:32pm

re: #319 engineer cat

another right wing approach to doing nothing:

The 2nd Amendment was not put into the Bill of Rights so citizens could protect themselves from each other. It was put into the Bill of Rights so citizens could protect themselves from the government. Therefore the ordinary citizen should have the right to be at least as well armed as their local police / SWAT unit. If you really want to restrict these types of weapons from the general public then start by taking them away from the police.

then we devolve back to one of the more brain dead lines of debate

What's that you say? The police need those weapons to fight criminals? Then how will any more gun legislation keep criminals from getting these weapons? They're criminals. They don't obey the law as it is. More laws won't make any difference.

indeed, why have any laws? criminals will just break them

Too bad most of these mass shootings were perpetrated by otherwise law abiding citizens. They weren't criminals until they started to massacre people.

361 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:51:36pm

re: #352 HappyWarrior

So long as there are math pop quizzes on Fridays, last period , there will be prayer in school

Fixed with a personal twist :).
me too

362 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:52:07pm
363 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:52:14pm

re: #359 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Yes, as I understand it the Koch Foundation was rebranded as Cato, some time ago.

There's a lot more to them than that.

364 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:52:29pm

re: #361 sattv4u2

So long as there are math pop quizzes on Fridays, last period , there will be prayer in school

Fixed with a personal twist :).
me too

Ha, that could have been me in seventh grade. I had math at the end of the day with a teacher with a penchant for pop quizzes.

365 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:52:54pm

re: #356 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

If you have "bear arms" you should probably shave all the fur off them. You'll find that cools things off a bit.

I have armed bears !!

Image: bears.jpg

366 celticdragon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:53:10pm

re: #65 jaunte

I'd love to see her try to get a group of libertarians to cooperatively rush a shooter for the common good.

That is what you have moochers for. You pay them to run at the gunman since they are too stupid to live on their own anyway.

367 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:53:45pm

re: #363 wrenchwench

There's a lot more to them than that.

I know. But I"m pissed-off enough as it is . . .

368 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:53:55pm

Satan - giving us one more day of hell before taking over.

Image: 563806_10152354617075545_12788965_n.jpg

369 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:09pm

re: #323 Charles Johnson

Could you do the same comparison you did between the US and the UK to nations we could plausibly approach in terms of Gun Laws?

Those three are, as I have stated earlier, Norway, Sweden, and Finland.

370 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:10pm

re: #354 darthstar

Image: 227022_10152352779450013_86909070_n.jpg

I know I really resent Bram Stoker for stealing the vampire thing from Stephanie Meyer. And Shakespeare obviously stole Taming of the Shrew from Ten Things I Hate About You and the DiCaprio and Claire Dames movie.

371 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:19pm

re: #347 HappyWarrior

What part of forced prayer don't they get? Listen, despite what Fischer believes. You are allowed to pray in public schools. You know how I know that? Because I did it a few times as a kid. Schools or any public instiution shouldn't be able to force people to pray. Gosh, you'd think that someone supposedly versed in religion like Fischer would get that prayer isn't special if it's forced on people. It's just a forced prayer.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything so long as you do exactly as he says.

372 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:34pm

re: #362 Targetpractice

Seriously?

My hope is it's someone who is just having fun with this.

373 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:35pm

re: #368 darthstar

Satan - giving us one more day of hell before taking over.

Image: 563806_10152354617075545_12788965_n.jpg

To listen to Justin Bieber? Is that really a good thing?

374 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:38pm

re: #354 darthstar

There aren't enough [facepalms] to cover that one (thinking that Tolkien's Hobbit rips off Harry Potter). Holy schneikes.

375 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:54:38pm

SC prepares legislation criminalize implementing Obamacare

State Rep. Bill Chumley (R), who represents Spartanburg, pre-filed legislation last week to criminalize the legally-required implementation of Obamacare. U.S. News & World Report has more:

If his bill becomes law, any state official caught enforcing the healthcare law would be guilty of a misdemeanor and “must be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

Federal officials caught enforcing the law, however, would be given stiffer punishment under the proposal.

Any federal employee or contractor enforcing the law “is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than five thousand dollars, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both,” the bill proposes.

Take a civics class, you moron.

376 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:55:27pm

re: #358 HappyWarrior

Honestly, I'd suggest that forcing prayer trivializes prayer. Allowing the individual to have his or her own personal prayer is better. I guess that's one thing I've never gotten about people like Fischer or Huckabee who really desire a system in which we force people to pray. It's not as powerful if you're praying because you have to. If you're praying to God, Allah, whoever, because you really want to. That's going to get you much greater spiritual sanctification.

Forced prayer and such isn't about increasing spirituality. It's about exerting secular control.

377 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:55:54pm

According to Fox:
Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap

“From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told FoxNews.com. "Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off.”

A senior law enforcement official involved in the investigation confirmed that Lanza's anger at his mother over plans for “his future mental health treatment” is being looked at as a possible motive for the deadly shooting.

Flashman was told Nancy Lanza had begun filing paperwork to get conservatorship over her troubled son, but that could not be confirmed because a court official told FoxNews.com such records are sealed. The move would have been necessary for her to gain the legal right to commit an adult to a hospital or psychiatric facility against his will. A competency hearing had not yet been held

378 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:55:56pm

re: #376 Feline Fearless Leader

Forced prayer and such isn't about increasing spirituality. It's about exerting secular control.

creating drones

379 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:56:10pm

re: #370 HappyWarrior

I know I really resent Bram Stoker for stealing the vampire thing from Stephanie Meyer. And Shakespeare obviously stole Taming of the Shrew from Ten Things I Hate About You and the DiCaprio and Claire Dames movie.

And I mean like, this Bible, totally plagiarized from Charlton Heston!

380 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:57:20pm

re: #375 Kragar

SC prepares legislation criminalize implementing Obamacare

Take a civics class, you moron.

Yeah punish someone for implementing a law passed by the US Congress and upheld by the US Supreme Court. They don't call it Obama Derangement Syndrome for nothing folks.
"Hey you, are you actually following the regulations of Obamacare?"
"Uh yeah, what's it to ya?"
"I'm calling the cops on you asshole. You're going to jail for a long time."
"What for making it easier for my employees to have health care."

381 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:58:24pm

re: #303 Kragar

Discovery Channel kicks Ted Nugent to the curb

The fact that Discovery picked up at all a show with Nugent involving guns just makes me shake my head.

On one hand, they have really good shows like MythBusters (and even they will use guns/cannons/other projectile weapons in the course of testing some myths, but those are a fraction of what they do); on the other, you have shows that completely and unabashedly pander to the gun nuts (Nugent's show, Sons of Guns, American Guns).

Hell, MythBusters, with all of their safety protocols and special locations when they do anything involving guns, projectile weapons, and explosives, has still had things go wrong on occasion (though very, very rare); the incident with the cannon shot at the Alameda County bomb range earlier this year that ricocheted out into the surrounding neighborhood and did a fair amount of damage is the most serious I've ever heard of.

To be sure though, I've seen MythBusters move away from "pure" gun myths as of the past couple of seasons AFAICS, though they still blow plenty of stuff up, but I've never seen the show as glorifying guns like the other shows do/did.

382 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:58:26pm

re: #379 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

You mean Theodore Roberts, Cecil B. DeMille's 1923 original Moses, right?

Besides, DeMille is the real lawgiver.

Or is that Mel Brooks. I give you 15, no 10... 10 commandments. /

383 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:58:38pm

re: #377 Killgore Trout

Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told FoxNews.com. "Adam was apparently very upset about this.

heh

The other day when the report came out that he tried too, and was denied, buying a gun days before the shootings I had speculated that he had a confrontation with his mother about getting her guns which ended in his killing her then heading for the school

384 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:58:44pm

re: #379 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

And I mean like, this Bible, totally plagiarized from Charlton Heston!

The Greeks totally ripped the Romans off in their mythology too. I mean come on the Iliad and the Odyssey are obviously rip-offs off of The Aeneid.

385 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:59:44pm

re: #384 HappyWarrior

Gilgamesh is pissed at Noah from what I understand...

386 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 12:59:56pm

re: #384 HappyWarrior

rip-offs off of The Aeneid.

The pharmacy sells a cream for that now!!!
/

387 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:03pm

re: #375 Kragar

State Rep. Bill Chumley (R), who represents Spartanburg, pre-filed legislation last week to criminalize the legally-required implementation of Obamacare. U.S. News & World Report has more:

Image: e6b660e5c143b545_chumlee.jpg

or

Image: chumley.jpg

Either image fits.

388 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:05pm

re: #377 Killgore Trout

According to Fox:
Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap

That sounds a lot like the picture that was forming in my mind, namely that she'd reached the point where she could no longer deny that her son was in need of help, but by then it was pretty much already too late.

389 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:10pm

The gun control debate and repealing the 2nd Ammendment reminds me of a Buddy Hacket joke from the old Tonight Show: A father bull and his son were on a hill overlooking the herd. Son Bull says, "Hey, dad. Let's run down the hill and fuck one of those cows". Papa Bull replies, "Let's walk down there and fuck them all."
I think talk of banning guns and repealing the 2nd is counterproductive, although emotionally satisfying to some. Slow and steady wins the race.

390 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:27pm

And the Germanic tribes having their winter festivals to coincide with the birth of Jesus is a total ripoff.

391 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:38pm

Wow! The folks at shooting mega-store Cheaper than Dirt are getting a tsunami of abuse for their decision to suspend online gun sales earlier today. Some of the kooks are posting links to other retailers on CtD's Facebook page. One of these is called "Civilian Infantry Supply." Wonder what they do? ///
(H/t Ausador for posting this earlier, solving a minor mystery.)

392 celticdragon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:44pm

re: #142 Interesting Times

Here. Educate yourself from something other than Infowars for a change:

After a 1996 mass shooting, Australia enacted strict gun laws and it hasn't had a similar massacre since

To be sure, Australia also had a massive buy-back campaign to get rid or semi-automatic weapons, and gun owners had to give written justification for why they had guns...and self defense could not be a stated reason.

That will simply not fly in this country where individualism and distrust or fear of the government are primary social markers...not to mention that the SCOTUS has pretty much determined that self defense is a perfectly valid reason for owning a gun.

Given the current make up of the court, I do not think that any ban on ownership of semi auto weapons would pass muster, although some restrictions (like stopping further production and import of high capacity magazines) may.

393 darthstar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:49pm

re: #384 HappyWarrior

The Greeks totally ripped the Romans off in their mythology too. I mean come on the Iliad and the Odyssey are obviously rip-offs off of The Aeneid.

I hear they were a bunch of Homers.

394 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:00:58pm

re: #383 sattv4u2

The other day when the report came out that he tried too, and was denied, buying a gun days before the shootings I had speculated that he had a confrontation with his mother about getting her guns which ended in his killing her then heading for the school

I think that's very possible.

395 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:01:48pm

re: #383 sattv4u2

Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told FoxNews.com. "Adam was apparently very upset about this.

heh

The other day when the report came out that he tried too, and was denied, buying a gun days before the shootings I had speculated that he had a confrontation with his mother about getting her guns which ended in his killing her then heading for the school

I remember it, but I still think it questionable as to whether he coerced her to give him access to the guns or whether he already had access and shooting her was part of his acting out at the subject of his rage.

396 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:02:02pm

re: #381 TedStriker

The fact that Discovery picked up at all a show with Nugent involving guns just makes me shake my head.

On one hand, they have really good shows like MythBusters (and even they will use guns/cannons/other projectile weapons in the course of testing some myths, but those are a fraction of what they do); on the other, you have shows that completely and unabashedly pander to the gun nuts (Nugent's show, Sons of Guns, American Guns).

Hell, MythBusters, with all of their safety protocols and special locations when they do anything involving guns, projectile weapons, and explosives, has still had things go wrong on occasion (though very, very rare); the incident with the cannon shot at the Alameda County bomb range earlier this year that ricocheted out into the surrounding neighborhood and did a fair amount of damage is the most serious I've ever heard of.

To be sure though, I've seen MythBusters move away from "pure" gun myths as of the past couple of seasons AFAICS, though they still blow plenty of stuff up, but I've never seen the show as glorifying guns like the other shows do.

Mythbusters are both guyz and geeks, they love to blow things up & destroy things.

Same with the Pawn Guys. Every once in a while I think they have a gun brought in just so they can go to the range and shoot it. Boyz!

Same with some of the cars they show. They really just want to drive them.

:0

397 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:03:52pm

re: #395 Targetpractice

I remember it, but I still think it questionable as to whether he coerced her to give him access to the guns or whether he already had access and shooting her was part of his acting out at the subject of his rage.

Still haven't seen anything as to whether or not she had a safe/ locker in the house
I'm tending to believe she did and somehow he forced her to open it

398 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:05:27pm

re: #397 sattv4u2

Still haven't seen anything as to whether or not she had a safe/ locker in the house
I'm tending to believe she did and somehow he forced her to open it

I'm of the mind that he still had access, even towards the end, if only because she was still somewhat in denial that he was a danger. That he might have needed help, but that didn't mean he'd react violently.

399 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:07:31pm

re: #351 Gus

In addition to cancelling its popular “American Guns” reality show, The Discovery Channel confirmed to Raw Story on Tuesday that firearms enthusiast Ted Nugent will also not be returning to the channel in any form or fashion.

I can hear him whining already. Nuge loves playing the victim.

400 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:07:43pm

re: #370 HappyWarrior

I know I really resent Bram Stoker for stealing the vampire thing from Stephanie Meyer. And Shakespeare obviously stole Taming of the Shrew from Ten Things I Hate About You and the DiCaprio and Claire Dames movie.

Don't get me started about how Chopin stole Could It Be Magic? from Barry Manilow. The hack.

401 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:08:02pm

If even the New York Post is publishing columns advocating a redesign of the 2nd Amendment, maybe it's not that far-fetched.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

They could be just trolling, of course.

402 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:08:16pm

re: #398 Targetpractice

I'm of the mind that he still had access, even towards the end, if only because she was still somewhat in denial that he was a danger. That he might have needed help, but that didn't mean he'd react violently.


Flashman was told Nancy Lanza had begun filing paperwork to get conservatorship over her troubled son, but that could not be confirmed because a court official told FoxNews.com such records are sealed. The move would have been necessary for her to gain the legal right to commit an adult to a hospital or psychiatric facility against his will. A competency hearing had not yet been held

If she knew he was that bad, and had started taking steps to have him committed, coupled with his attempt to buy a gun days before, tells me he didn't have ready access to her stash anymore (if ever)

403 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:11:21pm

re: #385 lawhawk

Gilgamesh is pissed at Noah from what I understand...

That was Utnapishtim. He survived the flood and was given eternal life by the gods. He passed the secret (a kind of plant) on to Gilgamesh, who promptly let it fall overboard on his sea journey back to Uruk. Them's the breaks.

404 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:12:14pm

re: #402 sattv4u2


Flashman was told Nancy Lanza had begun filing paperwork to get conservatorship over her troubled son, but that could not be confirmed because a court official told FoxNews.com such records are sealed. The move would have been necessary for her to gain the legal right to commit an adult to a hospital or psychiatric facility against his will. A competency hearing had not yet been held

If she knew he was that bad, and had started taking steps to have him committed, coupled with his attempt to buy a gun days before, tells me he didn't have ready access to her stash anymore (if ever)

And like I said the other day, it's plausible. We're hearing more about what went on in the school than the home life situation, which of course has a lot to do with the family's apparent secrecy. That he forced his own mother to give up the guns makes me wonder just what was going through his head. Obviously he very badly needed help, but for what?

405 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:12:18pm

re: #358 HappyWarrior

Honestly, I'd suggest that forcing prayer trivializes prayer. Allowing the individual to have his or her own personal prayer is better. I guess that's one thing I've never gotten about people like Fischer or Huckabee who really desire a system in which we force people to pray. It's not as powerful if you're praying because you have to. If you're praying to God, Allah, whoever, because you really want to. That's going to get you much greater spiritual sanctification.

The thing I remember about forced prayer while in school was how often a sermon or the leader's pet subject was stuck in. oh, and how they always dragged on forever.

Noting, of course, that they weren't really forced. I was always free to self-ostracize myself from the club, team, or social group.

406 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:13:52pm

re: #402 sattv4u2


Flashman was told Nancy Lanza had begun filing paperwork to get conservatorship over her troubled son, but that could not be confirmed because a court official told FoxNews.com such records are sealed. The move would have been necessary for her to gain the legal right to commit an adult to a hospital or psychiatric facility against his will. A competency hearing had not yet been held

If she knew he was that bad, and had started taking steps to have him committed, coupled with his attempt to buy a gun days before, tells me he didn't have ready access to her stash anymore (if ever)

I don't get it either. I know that it can be incredibly difficult for parents to accept their child is not mentally stable to the point of needing to be hospitalized or otherwise restrained. They will maintain the denial even if their own life is at stake.

407 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:15:15pm

re: #405 kirkspencer

The thing I remember about forced prayer while in school was how often a sermon or the leader's pet subject was stuck in. oh, and how they always dragged on forever.

Noting, of course, that they weren't really forced. I was always free to self-ostracize myself from the club, team, or social group.

Last time I went to Mass was last Christmas. Priest used the sermon to whine about how it's "Happy Holidays" and not "Merry Christmas" now. If my grandmother hadn't been with us, I really would have walked out. I don't want to hear that shit on Christmas Eve. I'm sorry but I really hate how people whine about Happy Holidays from strangers. Someone is trying to be polite to you and you're mad because they didn't say Merry Christmas. If someone wishes me either or even a Happy Hannukah, I'm appreciative because someone's trying to be polite.

408 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:20:38pm

So here are questions asked good faith:

For those who do favor repealing the Second Amendment, and restricting semi-automatics, would you grandfather in those already in private ownership, or would you attempt to require people to turn them in, and if they didn't, seize them?

If you grandfather existing semi's, do you think repealing the Second Amendment and restricting the manufacture or importantion of additional semi's will be effective in preventing mass shootings and other forms of gun violence? If so, on what basis?

409 Cinnabar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:23:06pm

re: #374 lawhawk

There aren't enough [facepalms] to cover that one (thinking that Tolkien's Hobbit rips off Harry Potter). Holy schneikes.

I remember an irate letter to the editor when The Two Towers came out, pointing out that they'd obviously chosen the name to allude to the World Trade Center attacks.

410 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:26:42pm

re: #408 Tanker J.D.

Here's a question in good faith:

Why should anyone take you seriously when you cited the effects of the ban on handguns in the UK and told us to take a look at the results, then you told us that looking at the UK wasn't actually useful at all, and then told us again to look at the results?

And when you did your ridiculous, butter-wouldn't-melt-in-your-mouth "How do you know I'm a conservative" dance (with cherry-on-top "i'm a libertarian" simper, too)?

411 Tigger2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:27:36pm

re: #279 darthstar

I think we could ban assault weapons, clips that hold > 10 rounds, etc. and still protect the 2nd Amendment. The right to bear arms shouldn't outweigh the right to life, liberty, happiness and the pursuit of Blue's Clues. There is no practical purpose for any civilian to own an assault rifle. If someone wants to fire an assault rifle, let them join the military, or allow for licensed assault rifle firing ranges where people can rent a weapon that is only used within said range - hell, I'd open my own assault rifle rental shop in that case...and add a banquet room so it could be used for frat parties and bachelor parties. I'd make a fuckin' million off the couch warriors...and even increase profit by using light loads...they'll never know the difference.

I think we could take the down to 5 round clips like most hunting rifles.

412 freetoken  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:32:00pm

re: #408 Tanker J.D.

I'm not sure how much "good faith" you have anymore, but here's an answer:

Some states outlaw the ownership or carrying of tasers (electronic stun guns) or other means of defense. Why? Because they are deemed too dangerous.

It is only because of the social structure we call our legal system, which enshrines words as holy objects, that keeps "guns", which are extremely dangerous, in the hands of nearly anyone who wants one (and even the restrictions that currently exist had to be fought for against the protestations of previous generations of gun nuts.)

There should be no grandfather clause. Simply allow a grace period for turning in restricted guns, (and allow a full face value write off in deductions on taxes for all of you who might be up in arms about private property.)

413 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:44:34pm

Well you don't have to take me seriously to address the questions, but here goes some responses to yours:

On the U.K. study, it showed that there was an uptick in handguns used in crime two years after the ban. Charles' point was that calling it a "40% increase" was misleading. That's a good point. My counterpoint is that the study still shows at the very least the ban did not seem to reduce gun violence in the two years after the ban was implemented, even if you can't say it lead to an large jump in gun violence. That was probably lost in the intense back-and-forth.

The next point that was brought up (as I understood it) is that the U.K. now has a ridiculously low homicide rate compared to the U.S., now. My counterpoint to that point is that it is a bad comparison because the U.K. started with much lower homicide rate, even before its hand gun ban. So whatever has gone in the U.K. in the past ten years is probably more of an effect of long term social trends, not a ban ten years ago. So, in all, the evidence that the ban was effective isn't there. Rather the argument seems based only on an initial intutive hunch that less guns = less gun violence. (Coupled with severe mocking of "gun nuts".)

As for the conservative thing, that was embarrasing. I forgot about the profiles. I was trying to point out that when I was just talking about homicide rates, the number of guns in private ownership, and the effects of the Second Amendment, I had not actually staked out a political position. But, whatever, I'm libertarian / conservative, on the "other side" or whatever.

Part of the reason I came back today was to have a conversation. To see what Charles was saying about the issue. I don't recall an event like this from the "old days", so I didn't know where Charles stood politically on this issues, and wanted to see what he had to say. That's why he runs the blog, anyway, I think.

My first post was a bit sarcastic, but in the end, the premise was shown to be accurate. The proposals here (by Charles and others) is that the Second Amendment be repealed and semi automatics be restricted to police and military use. O.k., so what do we do about the 300 million that are already out there in citizens' hands?

I think that's the next logical question to continue the conversation.

414 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:47:59pm

Freetoken, thank you for the response. Assuming not everyone complies within the grace period, do you propose trying to track them down, or just seizing them if/when they turn up?

415 Tanker J.D.  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:48:39pm

I mean seizing the guns, not the people...

416 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 1:49:28pm

re: #415 Tanker J.D.

I mean seizing the guns, not the people...

"Leave the gun, take the cannolis"

417 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 2:20:14pm

re: #334 Targetpractice

I'll be honest Charles, I think that's flirting with disaster. Personally I think any such effort will precede or be part of the immediate aftermath of a second American Civil War.

Aftermath. And it'll be mostly urban vs rural.

418 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 2:26:37pm

re: #391 Shiplord Kirel

Wow! The folks at shooting mega-store Cheaper than Dirt are getting a tsunami of abuse for their decision to suspend online gun sales earlier today. Some of the kooks are posting links to other retailers on CtD's Facebook page. One of these is called "Civilian Infantry Supply." Wonder what they do? ///
(H/t Ausador for posting this earlier, solving a minor mystery.)

Meanwhile they raised the price on popular Magpul AR magazines from $14.95 ea to $59.95 each... True to their price gouging roots ;)

419 I Am Kreniigh!  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 2:35:06pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here because in my time here, LGF has been a pretty sane and rational forum, and I tend to agree with the majority opinions here. So when I find myself not in agreement with those opinions, it's worthwhile to ask why.

I honestly didn't find the McArdle article objectionable at all until the final notorious suggestion (which itself was the sort of thing that I could imagine Spock saying in a Star Trek episode, only to be roundly cursed by McCoy and Kirk).

From the reactions here, you would think that her entire essay was in support of the "rush the gunman" argument, but to me that seemed like an exhausted afterthought, almost a reductio ad absurdum. What came before it didn't get as much attention.

I'm not strongly pro- or anti-gun despite having friends in both camps. Personally I would never want to own one, given the increased risk to my own family. Gun culture makes me uncomfortable.

Maybe I am lacking some context -- I'm not familiar with McArdle or her body of writing, and I'm sure I would react more negatively if those words were written by a Palin or a Limbaugh.

Or maybe I am suffering from massacre fatigue, and days of reading and thinking and trying to process this incident has left me filled with fatalism. But the message of "nothing is going to work" had some resonance.

Help me out here. I am not taking the pro-gun side at all -- I think the "arm all the teachers" ideas are repugnant. I just have yet to hear any solution that would have prevented this tragedy. Am I being too cynical and calling it being realistic?

420 garzooma  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 3:36:50pm

re: #419 I Am Kreniigh!

I read McArdle quite a bit, and I had a similar reaction. I know it has an "outside of that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play" feel to say so, but besides the zaniness in the last paragraph, it wasn't a bad article (e.g. she does call for magazine restrictions). I also rather liked the

There's a terrible syllogism that tends to follow on tragedies like this:

1. Something must be done

2. This is something

3. Therefore this must be done.

. . . and hello, Gulf War II.

I wouldn't worry too much about the beating McArdle's taking over this, though. She gives as good as she gets: "US surveys indicate the favorite TV shows of liberal Democrats are comedians satirizing conservatives; conservatives' favorites are college football." (Conservatives don't particularly like watching Fox News: Who would have guessed?)

421 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 3:50:24pm

re: #419 I Am Kreniigh!

When you end an article with "Kids should gang-rush a shooter", it kind of taints the whole thing.

422 I Am Kreniigh!  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 3:57:36pm

re: #421 Obdicut

When you end an article with "Kids should gang-rush a shooter", it kind of taints the whole thing.

Yeah, I don't know what she was thinking, there. Maybe she's a Vulcan.

423 JRCMYP  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 4:15:43pm

Does this moron have children?

424 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 4:16:26pm

I am fully expecting a version of this meme where they recommend that slower moving children be designated as "sacrifices" given shirts with targets sewn on them and told to rush a shooter while the rest of the children hide themselves.

425 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:48:33pm

re: #354 darthstar

That's priceless! I have no doubt that it's completely sincere, too. A bit like teenagers suddenly discovering their favorite "comtemporary" hit is a cover of a song recorded 50 years ago.

426 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:56:55pm

re: #407 HappyWarrior

There are more important issues about Christmas than the type of greeting you get this time of year: like kindness, generosity, reflection and such.

427 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:48:26pm

I'm in favor of repealing the Second Amendment. In 21st Century we have no need for Well Regulated Militias. In 21st Century America, I see no reason that the Federal, State and Local governments shouldn't regulate firearms as they see necessary.


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