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1 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:51:17am

Queue up the insane blathering from Alex Jones and Glenn Beck.

2 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:55:04am

The Breitbrats are having a paranoid meltdown over this. (Of course.)

3 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:55:20am

re: #1 Kragar

Queue up the insane blathering from Alex Jones and Glenn Beck.

Oh, Jones is already arguing that Sandy Hook was a false flag operation so that Obama could move to repeal the Second Amendment.

I wish I was kidding.

4 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:57:15am
Should pass law requiring gun ownership, training.

Is this the 'less government' solution?

Being required to have (buy) healthcare under ACA is the most tryannical thing ever but a requirement to buy weaponry is totally legit?

5 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:57:33am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

The Breitbrats are having a paranoid meltdown over this. (Of course.)

[Embedded content]

This of course is the paranoid fuckwad who said he wanted to shoot teachers.

6 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:57:56am
I'm reconsidering my personal oppositon to guns.

Oh, I bet. /

7 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:58:20am

re: #5 HappyWarrior

This of course is the paranoid fuckwad who said he wanted to shoot teachers.

That was before he realized that armed teachers could have killed the Sandy Hook shooter without hitting any of the kids in their care.

8 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:58:48am

The rwnj want an armed camp. Sounds like they watch way too many wild, wild west movies.

9 Big Steve  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:59:31am

I know off thread (but cannot watch the President at work)....but this gave me some small glimmer of hope for sanity. New Orleans School Board Bans Creationism

10 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:59:44am

Honestly I think it's sad that they value their guns more than they do people. Paranoid zealots will be paranoid zealots.

11 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:00:46am
Should pass law requiring gun ownership, training.

So what need have we of police? /

12 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:04:01am

So this mental health thing... can we start with these guys?

13 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:04:03am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Again, what is really weird about this is that their suggests represent a basic misunderstanding of how guns work. Most people can't use them safely or well with just a little training; some won't ever be trainable, without dedicating massive amounts of time and effort to it. Many are physically incapable, many more emotionally unsuitable.

Everyone who's actually fired a gun knows it's a big deal, that it isn't a simple thing, and yet these idiots are pretending that it's a magic "Evil person go bye-bye" stick.

If they love guns so much how come they don't know fuck-all about them?

14 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:04:12am
15 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:04:36am

This is a very rude post about gun control and Newtown.

16 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:05:25am
17 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:06:13am

re: #16 Kragar

Ted Nugent Blames CT Shooting on 'Politically Correct Culture'

Eat shit Ted.

Why not? Silly little draft dodger keeps it conveniently located in his underwear anyway.

18 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:06:45am

re: #16 Kragar

That's what's been lacking since Friday: the insightfulness of Ted Nugent. /

19 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:07:52am

They keep on talking about political correctness. I don't think they know what it is. They just see it as the reason that they can't act like total jackasses. That's not what PC is.

20 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:08:07am

For the gun fanatics, regulations that might help reduce firearms fatalities in the country are viewed as somehow going to eliminate the 2d Amendment even as the first three words of the amendment call for "a well regulated". It was always envisioned for there to be regulations on firearms. Clearly existing regulations aren't working, but that isn't the same as calling for a wholesale elimination of the right to bear arms.

Regulation ≠ repeal 2d Amendment.

And of course, the possibility of changing regulations is seen as an opportunity to buy more guns, more firepower, in the name that the government is going to take them away from law abiding citizens.

21 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:08:39am
22 nines09  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:09:03am

re: #16 Kragar

Ted Nugent Blames CT Shooting on 'Politically Correct Culture'

Eat shit Ted.

We already knows he shits his pants. Maybe he's what they refer to in asylums as a "digger". Poop your pants and dig it out. Show the world. Make some art. Drop dead Ted.

23 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:09:20am

You heard it right here: Obama intends to repeal the 2nd Amendment, confiscate guns, usurp power and round up law-abiding citizens into FEMA re-education camps where they will labor under Chinese overlords to produce free Obamaphones for welfare recipients.

Isn't that what he just said?

/

24 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:10:07am

re: #20 lawhawk

The copies of the Constitution they carry around in their pockets don't have the "well-regulated" part. /

25 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:10:45am

re: #9 Big Steve

I know off thread (but cannot watch the President at work)....but this gave me some small glimmer of hope for sanity. New Orleans School Board Bans Creationism

Don't worry, Jindal will Ban the Ban by the end of the day.

26 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:10:57am

re: #21 Lidane

Newt Gingrich Blames ‘Anti Religious’ Secular Government For Newtown Shooting

Oh, of course. It all makes sense now.

///

Come on, Bill O'Reilly already cracked this case...it was TEH INTERNETZ!

Image: tedbaxterknows.jpg

27 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:11:15am

re: #21 Lidane

Newt Gingrich Blames ‘Anti Religious’ Secular Government For Newtown Shooting

Oh, of course. It all makes sense now.

///

I like it when Newt tries to act all holier than thou. Motherfucker, you've had how many marriages end because you committed adultery?

28 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:12:07am

re: #21 Lidane

Newt Gingrich Blames ‘Anti Religious’ Secular Government For Newtown Shooting

Oh, of course. It all makes sense now.

///

And on that note, Newt plus the Holidays equals:

29 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:12:24am

re: #26 bratwurst

Well, you and I and Bill know it was the Internet, but typically libruls are only talking about guns, as if guns had anything to do with how these children and teachers died. //

30 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:12:26am

re: #19 HappyWarrior

They keep on talking about political correctness. I don't think they know what it is. They just see it as the reason that they can't act like total jackasses. That's not what PC is.

...and in the same breath they want to implement their own "correctness" that controls speech and expression. I mean, what's the remedy to all this "secular, relativist culture"--forcing people to only watch what the culture warriors feel is whole. You know, a giant censorship and indoctrination program by the government.

31 nines09  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:12:53am

"Guarding schools." Yep. That's a great picture. Have National Guard at every door. With automatic weapons. Can't afford Union Thug Cops. Too expensive. Welcome To America, Greatest Nation On Earth.

32 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:13:11am

But yeah it seems the nuts have come out. Let's blame Newtown on everything but guns. God, I hate to sound like a George Carlin but we're painfully stupid sometimes. You'll blame secularism and political correctness but you'll freak your shit if someone suggests that guns are a problem. What the fucking fuck.

33 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:14:02am

re: #30 The Ghost of a Flea

...and in the same breath they want to implement their own "correctness" that controls speech and expression. I mean, what's the remedy to all this "secular, relativist culture"--forcing people to only watch what the culture warriors feel is whole. You know, a giant censorship and indoctrination program by the government.

Oh yeah, they bitch about political correctness but they flip out whenever their religious or political beliefs are mocked.

34 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:14:12am

re: #31 nines09

And a full contingent of National Guard around every Mall. And around every church. /

35 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:14:13am

How quickly things change!

Image: teacher2012.jpg

36 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:14:37am

re: #31 nines09

"Guarding schools." Yep. That's a great picture. Have National Guard at every door. With automatic weapons. Can't afford Union Thug Cops. Too expensive. Welcome To America, Greatest Nation On Earth.

So America is so exceptional we need Teachers and Administrators packing heat at every school in the nation?

37 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:14:58am

Unacceptable infrastructure spending: building bridges, power lines, dams, roads

Acceptable infrastructure spending:turning every school in America into its own little fortified fucking Green Zone

38 nines09  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:15:01am

re: #34 Bulworth

Hey, we're winding down in Afghanistan. Troops and JOBS!!!!!

39 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:15:04am

re: #21 Lidane

Can't quite be sure how religious Newtown was, but the funerals are mostly occurring at one of the churches there. Newtown is also home to the NSSF. Not exactly a bunch of heathens and atheists. They were home to one of the largest supporters of firearms rights in the country. People who worked for the NSSF lived and participated in Newtown life, including schools there.

The gunman's mother had a cache of guns and ammo. Didn't help her. The gunman murdered her first, and then moved on to the school. Why? We still don't know, and we may never know.

But a secular government likely had nothing to do with it.

40 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:15:26am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

The Breitbrats are having a paranoid meltdown over this. (Of course.)

[Embedded content]

Because really, what this nation needs right now is even more paranoid nuts with firearms and little respect for them.

Of course, what happens when they set a requirement to arm every American legally able to own a gun and find out that millions below the poverty line can't afford a gun. Right: Bitch that the government is giving poor people guns.

41 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:16:31am

re: #40 Targetpractice

Because really, what this nation needs right now is even more paranoid nuts with firearms and little respect for them.

Of course, what happens when they set a requirement to arm every American legally able to own a gun and find out that millions below the poverty line can't afford a gun. Right: Bitch that the government is giving poor people guns.

Can you imagine if they went totally off the cliff and started shooting everyone who wasn't white?

42 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:16:53am

When they start caring more about their fellow Americans than some inanimate object, we may get some progress.

44 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:18:28am

re: #41 dragonfire1981

Can you imagine if they went totally off the cliff and started shooting everyone who wasn't white?

Personally, I don't figure it'd take them long after any national plan to arm everybody before they started arguing against giving guns to the "wrong" people. Consider how much of a fucking fit they threw when they found out that poor people have access to cellphones. You imagine what happens when they stop and realize that the "47%" are now armed?

45 nines09  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:19:42am

All I know is I can never bag that 40 point buck without a semi auto assault rifle, painted black of course, laser guided, 30 clip capacity, with two more clips as backup, and with cop killer slugs.

46 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:20:12am

re: #43 Kragar

Piers Morgan rages at gun advocate: ‘You’re an unbelievably stupid man, aren’t you?’

You think Morgan's passion about this matter has something to do with the fact he's British?

47 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:20:48am

re: #45 nines09

All I know is I can never bag that 40 point buck without a semi auto assault rifle, painted black of course, laser guided, 30 clip capacity, with two more clips as backup, and with cop killer slugs.

Hey, that Buck is one tough bastard, he even beat the crap out of Leroy Brown.

48 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:21:08am

re: #44 Targetpractice

Personally, I don't figure it'd take them long after any national plan to arm everybody before they started arguing against giving guns to the "wrong" people. Consider how much of a fucking fit they threw when they found out that poor people have access to cellphones. You imagine what happens when they stop and realize that the "47%" are now armed?

Well the nuts are pretty consistent about civil liberties being solely for their tribe. I don't see why they'd make an exception for the 2nd Amendment.

49 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:21:38am

re: #47 dragonfire1981

Hey, that Buck is one tough bastard, he even beat the crap out of Leroy Brown.

All the ladies just call him tree top lover and all the men just call him sir.

50 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:21:41am

re: #40 Targetpractice

When they say "everyone" they don't really mean everyone. Not the poors, for instance. Not the welfares, for instance. Not the people on food stamps. //

51 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:21:44am

re: #48 The Ghost of a Flea

Well the nuts are pretty consistent about civil liberties being solely for their tribe. I don't see why they'd make an exception for the 2nd Amendment.

Up next: Gun Owner ID laws!

52 nines09  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:21:47am

re: #47 dragonfire1981

Some just don't go down easy. After 30 rounds it's easier to gut too./

53 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:21:59am

re: #5 HappyWarrior

This of course is the paranoid fuckwad who said he wanted to shoot teachers.

He better hurry up if he is still going to. I hear we will be arming them soon and they will have the drop on him.

54 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:22:04am

When I first became aware of the NRA, back in the 50s, it was an organization of rather kindly older people who ran safety and marksmanship classes, supervised shooting competitions, and handed out various awards. They shied away from the idea that you might actually shoot a criminal with one of your guns, let alone resist the national government or any other lawful authority.

Today, of course, the NRA is one of the bulwarks of right-wing conspiracy culture, its every move rooted in the assumption that the right's political opponents will set up a tyrannical state if given the slightest opportunity. How this change came about has been documented in a number of places, and will be a subject for historians a thousand years from now, but it has been a source of wonder and dread to see it happen in real time.

55 nines09  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:22:32am

gotta go.

56 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:22:59am

re: #22 nines09

We already knows he shits his pants. Maybe he's what they refer to in asylums as a "digger". Poop your pants and dig it out. Show the world. Make some art. Drop dead Ted.

So that explains his music. //

57 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:23:48am
58 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:24:37am

re: #54 Shiplord Kirel

When I first became aware of the NRA, back in the 50s, it was an organization of rather kindly older people who ran safety and marksmanship classes, supervised shooting competitions, and handed out various awards. They shied away from the idea that you might actually shoot a criminal with one of your guns, let alone resist the national government or any other lawful authority.

Today, of course, the NRA is one of the bulwarks of right-wing conspiracy culture, its every move rooted in the assumption that the right's political opponents will set up a tyrannical state if given the slightest opportunity. How this change came about has been documented in a number of places, and will be a subject for historians a thousand years from now, but it has been a source of wonder and dread to see it happen in real time.

I think that's part of the problem. The organization has changed from teaching responsible arms ownership to being quite frankly representing the interests of the gun companies.

59 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:24:41am

re: #57 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

But I strongly suspect, I do, that the numbers of people in the US who own firearms does not change.

60 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:25:25am

re: #57 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Just another excuse to hoard another gun.

61 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:25:31am

re: #57 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Welcome to the new United States of America, sponsored by Glock, Call of Duty and the NRA.

62 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:25:44am

re: #51 dragonfire1981

Up next: Gun Owner ID laws!

Given the concern trolling about mental illness (that doesn't involve any actual engagement with definitions of mental illness), I wouldn't be surprised if we see lobbying for easier involuntary commitment and less stringent standards. It can become the new wing of the prison industrial complex.

63 The Mountain That Blogs  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:25:58am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Of course, in case anyone forgot...

64 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:27:04am

re: #57 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Well, Davidson's has finally quit selling Bushmasters. They don't have any left.

65 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:27:28am

re: #54 Shiplord Kirel

When I first became aware of the NRA, back in the 50s, it was an organization of rather kindly older people who ran safety and marksmanship classes, supervised shooting competitions, and handed out various awards. They shied away from the idea that you might actually shoot a criminal with one of your guns, let alone resist the national government or any other lawful authority.

If the NRA radicalizes, only the radicals will remain in the NRA.

Er, wait.

66 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:27:30am

re: #57 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

7. Louisiana. In the Bayou State, sales of guns and ammunition have been high on the upswing since Obama’s re-election. But now, since the school shootings, they’re off the chain. From a report by Tania Dall of WWLTV’s Eyewitness News team:

In November, the Jefferson Parish store [Jefferson Gun Outlet] saw a 117 percent jump in sales. [Owner Mike] Mayer said last Friday’s tragic shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School has phones ringing off the hook.

“There are a lot of stock checks going on because the stores around this area are running out. So people are frantically trying to find something, somewhere that they can go purchase,” said Mayer.

[...]

“Our main distributor is here in Louisiana, in Shreveport. They sell over 1 million guns a year at their distributor base and they’re completely out of anything that would be considered an assault weapon,” said Mayer.

I live near Louisiana, should I be worried?

67 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:28:21am

No corresponding boom in gun safe sales, though.

68 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:28:22am

re: #63 The Mountain That Blogs

Of course, in case anyone forgot...

[Embedded content]

I'm sure he meant to follow that up with... "By other teachers who happen to be armed."

69 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:31:34am

re: #63 The Mountain That Blogs

Of course, in case anyone forgot...

[Embedded content]

Yeah lovely guy huh.

70 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:32:15am

re: #67 jaunte

No corresponding boom in gun safe sales, though.

Aren't you paying attention? The guns are the safeness.

71 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:33:52am

National Review: Shooting Occurred Because Women Ran The School

There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, seemed to have performed bravely. According to reports, she activated the school’s public-address system and also lunged at Lanza, before he shot her to death. Some of the teachers managed to save all or some of their charges by rushing them into closets or bathrooms. But in general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm. Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.

72 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:34:07am

re: #70 erik_t

Aren't you paying attention? The guns are the safeness.

Guns don't kill, people do.

But guns do radiate an aura of safety and protection that wards off potential mass assassins...

/

73 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:34:36am
74 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:35:05am

re: #71 Kragar

National Review: Shooting Occurred Because Women Ran The School

Welp, that one finally did it. Broke my brain.

I'm out, it's been fun.

75 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:35:29am

re: #71 Kragar

Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers.

Because men are bulletproof.

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:35:31am

re: #71 Kragar

National Review: Shooting Occurred Because Women Ran The School

Just keep drawing these people out. I am sure that the majority of people in our country are sane and stable, as are the majority of gun owners.

Let them hear what these idiots have to say about guns and American culture.

They need to be heard so we can laugh them into obscurity...

77 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:36:17am

re: #71 Kragar

Holy shit, Megan McTardle is starting to catch on elsewhere.

There is no pox evil enough I can wish on people that think this way.

78 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:36:19am

re: #71 Kragar

National Review: Shooting Occurred Because Women Ran The School

Remind me again on why NR should be taken seriously? See, they've replaced their usual racist bullshit and replaced it with some sexist bullshit.

79 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:36:22am

re: #71 Kragar

Now they want the 12 year old in on the suicide charge. This is becoming a real response: that children should suicidally charge a gunman. It's the real right-wing response.

80 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:36:26am

Dear Gun Nuts,
The shooting happened because the shooter had a fucking gun.
A high powered gun.

81 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:36:59am

Obama's going to take everyone's bicycles away. You need to buy as many as you can right away, before it's too late.

It's worth a try.

82 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:37:15am

re: #81 wrenchwench

Obama's going to take everyone's bicycles away. You need to buy as many as you can right away, before it's too late.

It's worth a try.

Seems legit.

83 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:37:32am

re: #80 Varek Raith

Dear Gun Nuts,
The shooting happened because the shooter had a fucking gun.
A high powered gun.

YOU"RE ATTACKING MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS! THE SHOOTING HAPPENED BECAUSE MICHAEL BLOOMBERG DOESN'T LIKE SOFT DRINKS!

84 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:37:57am

re: #75 Obdicut

Because men are bulletproof.

Man found shot dead in idling pickup

December 19, 2012

The body was discovered about 7:20 a.m. slumped behind the steering wheel of a black Chevrolet Silverado pickup in the 5300 block of Lost Forest near Pinemont and not far from Clifton Middle School, according to the Houston Police Department.

Details about the shooting were sketchy, said HPD Officer M.L. Stahlin. Stahlin said a resident spotted the man in the truck. The engine was idling. The resident tried to get the man's attention but couldn't and then discovered the man had been shot. The resident called 911.

No gun was found at the scene, Strahlin said.

85 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:38:19am

re: #81 wrenchwench

I'll see and raise.

Obama's coming to take your gold away.

Buy as much as you can before it's all gone.

/and it has the benefit of getting Glenn Beck to support it.

86 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:38:42am

re: #82 Varek Raith

Seems legit.

How are you going to pursue happiness without a bicycle? It's in the Constitution!

87 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:38:54am

So much stupid in the world.

88 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:40:01am

re: #85 lawhawk

I'll see and raise.

Obama's coming to take your gold away.

Buy as much as you can before it's all gone.

/and it has the benefit of getting Glenn Beck to support it.

See, I can't even use Lance any more. Where are all the bicycle nuts?

89 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:40:03am

re: #58 HappyWarrior

I think that's part of the problem. The organization has changed from teaching responsible arms ownership to being quite frankly representing the interests of the gun companies.

It's what happens when everything is for sale.

90 Locker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:40:24am

"Guns don't kill people, people do" has got to be one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard in my life.

Why? Because it is a statement with no content. No one is asserting that a gun walks around killing people on it's own. Guns make killing people a lot more efficient... THAT is the point to be addressed.

People kill people.
People with guns kill a lot more people.

91 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:40:33am

re: #71 Kragar

National Review: Shooting Occurred Because Women Ran The School

Someone remind me again that National Review are the sane, intellectual conservatives.

92 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:40:53am

After Newtown Massacre, Video Games Legislation Beats Gun Control Bills To Congress

This morning, Sen. Jay Rockefeller introduced legislation in the Senate “to arrange for the National Academy of Sciences to study the impact of violent video games and violent programming on children.” It’s depressing to see lawmakers rushing after diversions in the wake of the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Connecticut, when the conversations we ought to be having should be about gun control and mental health treatment, among other structural factors. And it’s even worse when you consider that Rockefeller’s wholly redundant bill has hit the floor of Congress before any gun legislation was introduced.

Part of what makes Rockefeller’s request that the National Academy study video game violence so frustrating to watch is that the Academy’s done just this before. The 1999 Missing, Exploited, and Runaway Children Protection Act included a provision that had the Secretary of Education contract the Academy to study the origins of school violence, including “the impact of cultural influences and exposure to the media, video games, and the Internet.” Katherine Newman, the Johns Hopkins professor who lead up that team, wrote in Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings, her later book on the subject, that “Millions of young people play video games full of fistfights, blazing guns, and body slams. Bodies litter the floor in many of our most popular films. Yet only a minuscule fraction of the consumers become violent. Hence, if there is an effect, children are not all equally susceptible to it.” In other words, finding out why a very small number of consumers are overly influenced by popular culture may be more useful than trying to measure the uneven and diffuse influence of movies, television shows, and games.

Gun Lobby has engaged their deflector shields!!!

93 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:40:54am

re: #78 HappyWarrior

Remind me again on why NR should be taken seriously? See, they've replaced their usual racist bullshit and replaced it with some sexist bullshit.

Well, at least they're original. It's the first time I've seen somebody blame teh womynz for the shooting. They've already blamed everything else.

94 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:41:03am

re: #80 Varek Raith

Dear Gun Nuts,
The shooting happened because the shooter had a fucking gun.
A high powered gun.

So let's give teachers guns. Because the gunman who's gonna blow his brains out anyway will be deterred by the knowledge that his targets can shoot back.

///

95 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:03am
96 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:04am

re: #71 Kragar

National Review: Shooting Occurred Because Women Ran The School

I think I will sign off for the day. My evil bullshit shield is nearing critical levels.

97 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:14am

re: #92 Kragar

After Newtown Massacre, Video Games Legislation Beats Gun Control Bills To Congress

Gun Lobby has engaged their deflector shields!!!

Sen. Rockefeller, kindly go fornicate with yourself.

98 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:20am

re: #71 Kragar

There are no limits to the bravery rwnj desire for other people in dangerous situations to possess. /

99 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:45am

re: #71 Kragar

There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees.

Ninja bucketheave defense.

100 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:47am

re: #90 Locker

"Guns don't kill people, people do" has got to be one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard in my life.

Why? Because it is a statement with no content. No one is asserting that a gun walks around killing people on it's own. Guns make killing people a lot more efficient... THAT is the point to be addressed.

People kill people.
People with guns kill a lot more people.

Exactly. Yeah of course a gun on its own doesn't kill people but if you're going to tell me with a straight face that an assault rifle doesn't kill people at a quicker rate than say a bolt action rifle, than you need to be laughed at. That's why these things are designed. They were designed for combat situations when you may need to fire off a lot of rounds at a lot of people. You don't need it to hunt, you don't need to cover up your "man card", etc.

101 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:42:56am

The Japanese right wing was big on the Banzai charge, and they even taught it to children. Then the atomic bombs fell and they reluctantly decided that all the suicidal and ruthlessly applied courage and indoctrination in the world wouldn't match the ruthless application of modern science.

102 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:43:03am

There is more to the NRO article...
Link

103 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:43:18am

re: #99 jaunte

Ninja bucketheave defense.

Its not very effective.

104 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:43:22am

Here's a picture of the four year old recently taken off of life support - the parents want this photo widely distributed to aid in preventing future deaths.

A mother's parting kiss to her son

105 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:43:35am

re: #98 Bulworth

Chickenhawks.

106 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:43:45am

re: #92 Kragar

After Newtown Massacre, Video Games Legislation Beats Gun Control Bills To Congress

Gun Lobby has engaged their deflector shields!!!

Sigh. So fucking stupid. Only in this country it feels like this would happen.

107 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:43:54am

re: #92 Kragar

After Newtown Massacre, Video Games Legislation Beats Gun Control Bills To Congress

Gun Lobby has engaged their deflector shields!!!

Democrat.

108 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:14am

re: #103 Kragar

It was quickly discontinued by the ninja after the famous McArdle Massacre.

109 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:16am

re: #107 Gus

Democrat.

Also, moron.
;)

110 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:17am

re: #79 Obdicut

Now they want the 12 year old in on the suicide charge. This is becoming a real response: that children should suicidally charge a gunman. It's the real right-wing response.

Brings to mind the children participating in the Iranian human wave attacks during the war with Iraq...

111 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:20am

re: #102 Mr. Hammer

There is more to the NRO article...
Link

You say that like it's a good thing.

112 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:40am

re: #109 Varek Raith

Also, moron.
;)

I thought that was moran? //

113 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:49am

re: #94 Targetpractice

So let's give teachers guns. Because the gunman who's gonna blow his brains out anyway will be deterred by the knowledge that his targets can shoot back.

///

Pretty much. It's exceptionally rare that mass-murderers like this do their deeds because they think they're going to get away with it. Almost without exception, they're looking to go out in a blaze of infamy, and are prepared to die before they even start. A good number of them do the job themselves.

114 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:45:03am

re: #54 Shiplord Kirel

The 50s would've been when my late father joined the NRA. He was a Life Member, as I recall.

He left them in the early 90s. He said they'd "gone off the deep end" and become an "armed version of the John Birch Society".

115 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:46:11am

re: #110 Sol Berdinowitz

Brings to mind the children participating in the Iranian human wave attacks during the war with Iraq...

Yeah, we used to think people who encouraged that sort of thing were fanatics and war criminals. Since the right elected a war criminal to Congress, though, they may not have a problem with that.

116 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:46:40am

re: #111 wrenchwench

Thought some might want to read the actual article rather than an excerpt from another blog.

117 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:48:07am

re: #116 Mr. Hammer

Thought some might want to read the actual article rather than an excerpt from another blog.

Nah, it's ok.
NRO is not credible.
What, with all the white nationalists they had writing for them.

118 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:48:10am

re: #116 Mr. Hammer

Thought some might want to read the actual article rather than an excerpt from another blog.

Sounds like a vague, mealy-mouthed, roundabout way of defending them - you know, a publication whose writers include bug-eyed birther Monckton and white supremacists (oh, I'm sorry, "race-realists") 9_9

119 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:48:52am

re: #92 Kragar

After Newtown Massacre, Video Games Legislation Beats Gun Control Bills To Congress

Dear Morons,

Video games didn't cause the Sandy Hook shooting. Ready access to an arsenal of weapons and ammo did.

Also, please read Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association to understand why knee-jerk laws like these always fail.

No love,
Me

120 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:48:58am

re: #116 Mr. Hammer

Thought some might want to read the actual article rather than an excerpt from another blog.

Yeah, I just tried that and my browser security went ballistic. Nice work, ass.

121 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:49:07am

Shooters only target "gun-free zones"...just ask John Hinckley, Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, Francisco Martin Duran, Sirhan Sirhan, etc.

122 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:49:17am

From the NRO heave's conclusion:

Parents of sick children need to be realistic about them. I know at least two sets of fine and devoted parents who have had the misfortune to raise sons who were troubled for genetic reasons beyond anyone’s control. Either of those boys could have been an Adam Lanza. You simply can’t give a non-working, non-school-enrolled 20-year-old man free range of your home, much less your cache of weapons. You have to set boundaries. You have to say, “You can’t live here anymore — you’re an adult, and it’s time for you to be a man. We’ll give you all the support you need, but we won’t be enablers.” Unfortunately, the idea of being an “adult” and a “man” once one has reached physical maturity seems to have faded out of our coddling culture.

Because Insufficient bootstraps and manliness.

123 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:50:11am

re: #116 Mr. Hammer

Thought some might want to read the actual article rather than an excerpt from another blog.

Can you find anything there that you think is worth sharing? I'm on page 3 of seven and it's just being piled higher and deeper.

124 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:50:28am

re: #122 The Ghost of a Flea

From the NRO heave:

Because Insufficient bootstraps and manliness.

Oh, just give him a bushmaster and he'll have his "man card" right then and there.

///

125 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:51:28am

re: #123 wrenchwench

Can you find anything there that you think is worth sharing? I'm on page 3 of seven and it's just being piled higher and deeper.

Like this:

But we can’t deceive ourselves that legislation or any other policy reform can redeem a fallen world. Mankind, by its very nature, is fallen — broken and sinful — and broken men will cause immense suffering. That is not a comforting thought, but it is real; it is true.

126 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:51:45am

re: #122 The Ghost of a Flea

From the NRO heave:

Because Insufficient bootstraps and manliness.

Better a "coddling" society than a "tough luck, fuck you" society.

127 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:51:50am

re: #122 The Ghost of a Flea

What the hell does all that even mean?

128 Locker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:51:51am

It's unsurprising that as soon as we have a tragedy such as this the gun nuts do everything in their power to find a scapegoat OTHER than guns. What's our list so far?

- Violent video games
- Quentin Tarantino
- The entertainment industry
- Shooter's mom
- Not enough guns
- Lack of God in school
- Mental Health
- Secularism
- Weak women who couldn't save anyone
- Gun free zone signs

Such a huge list created to hide, ignore, cover up and deny the giant elephant in the room.

129 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:51:53am

re: #121 Dr. Matt

Shooters only target "gun-free zones"...just ask John Hinckley, Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, Francisco Martin Duran, Sirhan Sirhan, etc.

If only the staff of Fort Hood had more guns...

//

130 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:52:29am

re: #116 Mr. Hammer

Because the same magazine that had to be shamed into firing two blatant white supremacist authors is somehow magically credible when talking about gender. Really.

///

131 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:52:29am

re: #125 wrenchwench

That sounds like the old "a perfect law can't be written to solve the problem completely, so let's not start."

132 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:52:57am

re: #65 erik_t

If the NRA radicalizes, only the radicals will remain in the NRA.

Er, wait.

Actually fairly true. Lots, like my FiL left by 1980. I never belonged due to the radicals. Read the letter GHWB wrote when he quit the NRA sometime.

133 Locker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:52:58am

re: #122 The Ghost of a Flea

Because kicking someone out can override genetics. It's the same solution they use for gay children... kick em out, disown them, tell them it's a choice.

134 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:53:06am

re: #127 Ghost of Tom Joad

What the hell does all that even mean?

It means we need more patriarchy, because women are useless and not brave/violent, and men aren't manly enough.

Therefore mass shooter.

135 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:53:24am
136 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:53:26am

re: #128 Locker

It's unsurprising that as soon as we have a tragedy such as this the gun nuts do everything in their power to find a scapegoat OTHER than guns. What's our list so far?

- Violent video games
- Quentin Tarantino
- The entertainment industry
- Shooter's mom
- Not enough guns
- Lack of God in school
- Mental Health
- Secularism
- Weak women who couldn't save anyone
- Gun free zone signs

Such a huge list created to hide, ignore, cover up and deny the giant elephant in the room.

Abortion. That's one a lot of the RWNJ's prattle on about. You know, "Culture of Death" and all that.

137 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:53:57am

re: #134 The Ghost of a Flea

It means we need more patriarchy, because women are useless and not brave/violent, and men aren't manly enough.

Therefore mass shooter.

The spankings will continue until the mass shootings stop.

Got it.

138 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:54:02am

re: #134 The Ghost of a Flea

It means we need more patriarchy, because women are useless and not brave/violent, and men aren't manly enough.

Therefore mass shooter.

Just look at the statistics: Women are not manly enough to be mass shooters in the first place.

/

139 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:54:02am

re: #122 The Ghost of a Flea

You have to say, “You can’t live here anymore — you’re an adult, and it’s time for you to be a man.

Go now, and rove in packs of disturbed youth.

140 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:54:56am

Are you people blind?!?! Can't you see?

FEMAle and FEMA?!?!

//

141 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:54:58am

re: #129 GunstarGreen

If only the staff of Fort Hood had more guns...

//

If Adam Lanza didn't have an assault rifle with multiple 30 round capacity magazines.....

142 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:55:06am

re: #102 Mr. Hammer

Yes, like the pathetic way the article tries to tie back into feminization at the end:

Parents of sick children need to be realistic about them. I know at least two sets of fine and devoted parents who have had the misfortune to raise sons who were troubled for genetic reasons beyond anyone’s control. Either of those boys could have been an Adam Lanza. You simply can’t give a non-working, non-school-enrolled 20-year-old man free range of your home, much less your cache of weapons. You have to set boundaries. You have to say, “You can’t live here anymore — you’re an adult, and it’s time for you to be a man. We’ll give you all the support you need, but we won’t be enablers.” Unfortunately, the idea of being an “adult” and a “man” once one has reached physical maturity seems to have faded out of our coddling culture.

So seriously, their idea of what would have made this better is to tell Adam Lanza he couldn't live at home anymore? That would have awoken his dormant masculinity?

For fuck's sake.

143 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:55:18am

re: #139 jaunte

Go now, and rove in packs of disturbed youth.

If only they loved Jesus more.

144 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:56:08am

re: #131 jaunte

That sounds like the old "a perfect law can't be written to solve the problem completely, so let's not start."

You'd expect more from a guy whose bio says this:

David French is senior counsel and director of digital advocacy at the American Center for Law and Justice.

What the fuck is Law and Justice for if we are so helpless to do anything?

145 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:56:34am

re: #120 Ghost of Tom Joad

Up yours, pal.

146 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:57:05am

re: #144 wrenchwench

You'd expect more from a guy whose bio says this:

What the fuck is Law and Justice for if we are so helpless to do anything?

It's just one of those stupid right wing think tank names like "Government is Not God."

147 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:57:11am

re: #102 Mr. Hammer

There is more to the NRO article...
Link

LOL Yeah, it does get more stupid.

148 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:57:36am

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the gun-buying frenzy we're seeing now is not just gun nuts, but also "market speculators". My dad bought a Colt AR-15A2 in the mid 80s, and paid (I think) something like $700 for it brand-new. After he died, I ended up having to sell off a lot of stuff, and I sold it back to a gun shop for about $500. Then about a year after that, the Brady ban was signed and you couldn't touch a pre-ban AR-15 for less than $2000 (the banned types were grandfathered, so weapons and magazines manufactured prior to the ban could still be bought and sold legally). I probably could have sold it for at least that much, if not more, because it was in practically mint condition and hadn't been fired very much. I was really kicking myself that I hadn't held onto it.

There are probably a lot of people suspecting that a similar situation will arise from whatever new laws (if any) are enacted.

149 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:57:45am

re: #145 Mr. Hammer

Up yours, pal.

So if I call you an ass you'll respond to my comments too?

150 Locker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:58:01am

re: #145 Mr. Hammer

Up yours, pal.

How bored are you that today you had to add to your total post count of 315 posts since 2004? Maybe you thought your karma just wasn't low enough... pal

151 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:58:48am

So, we're now supposed to have more guns in schools because of a lack of religion in schools (they're too secular). How is having more guns in school supposed to address secularism of schools, unless it's to address those times when people are going to be screaming and praying to their god when some other shooter comes barreling through and turning the classrooms crimson with blood.
/

152 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:59:35am

re: #144 wrenchwench

The ACLJ is Pat Robertson's baby. No surprise they're full of fail.

153 Mr. Hammer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:59:58am

re: #149 wrenchwench

What do you want? I linked to the actual article, and now you guys can discuss it. All you had before was an excerpt.

154 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:59:59am

re: #8 Bulworth

The rwnj want an armed camp. Sounds like they watch way too many wild, wild west movies.

They must. It's pathetic and embarrassing.

155 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:00:04pm

re: #147 allegro

LOL Yeah, it does get more stupid.

Sample:

...Is it so unbelievable that you and I are Adam Lanza? If you are one of those few readers who has not procured an abortion, betrayed a spouse, abandoned your child through divorce, made yourself bestial with porn, or simply indulged a hatred of your fellow man, it’s only by the grace of God that you have not.

I know that that is a moralistic conclusion. But I’m a Catholic, in the “minor penitential season of Advent,” which should elicit self-directed moralism. My practical advice is therefore: Let us examine our lives, repent in sackcloth and ashes, be as medieval as possible in “doing reparation” for others, and repeat, after Isaiah, “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips!”

— Michael Pakaluk

156 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:00:35pm

America confuses being a bully with being brave.

157 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:00:45pm

re: #152 Lidane

The ACLJ is Pat Robertson's baby. No surprise they're full of fail.

Oh, God's American Law and Justice, not the peoples'.

158 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:00:46pm

re: #151 lawhawk

So, we're now supposed to have more guns in schools because of a lack of religion in schools (they're too secular). How is having more guns in school supposed to address secularism of schools, unless it's to address those times when people are going to be screaming and praying to their god when some other shooter comes barreling through and turning the classrooms crimson with blood.
/

Stop it, you're using logic. But yeah I never got the equation of religious values with guns and secularism with no guns. But then again, we do have those like Bryan Fischer who say the teachings of Jesus Christ form the basis for the second amendment which makes about as much sense as saying that the story of Job is why we have the eighth amendment.

159 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:01:17pm

re: #153 Mr. Hammer

What do you want? I linked to the actual article, and now you guys can discuss it. All you had before was an excerpt.

I want you to find something in the link you shared that you think is actually worth discussing.

160 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:01:18pm

re: #153 Mr. Hammer

What do you want? I linked to the actual article, and now you guys can discuss it. All you had before was an excerpt.

The rest of the article really isn't any better.

161 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:02:13pm

re: #159 wrenchwench

The probable effect of bucket-heaving on Bushmasters?

162 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:02:21pm

re: #153 Mr. Hammer

What do you want? I linked to the actual article, and now you guys can discuss it. All you had before was an excerpt.

See my earlier comment.

163 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:02:40pm

Holy shit, they just keep getting dumber and more intent on finding a way on blaming liberals:

The actions of young Adam Lanza betray that unfathomable opacity, the heart of darkness. Coleridge, writing of Iago, diagnosed his evil as an example of “motiveless malignancy.” So it is here. The psychologist, the social worker, likewise the “gun control” zealots, have nothing but nostrums for us in such cases. With the lives of a score of children suddenly snuffed out, likewise the several adults who were brutally murdered, it is pointless to pester the Almighty with “Why?” This really was — terrible phrase — senseless murder, though we find it all but impossible to rest in that senselessness. It is difficult, maybe impossible, to spare much sentiment for Adam Lanza when many of the corpses he produced have yet to be interred. But what a tangled, desperate horror his heart must have been. We are in the presence, here, of a hard, dark, numinous mystery that we can recoil from but never explain.

That's right folks, don't try and study the situation. Don't ask questions. It's an ineffable mystery...those nasty psych people are useless and we should totally dismiss them because god stuff.

164 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:02:48pm

re: #21 Lidane

Newt Gingrich Blames ‘Anti Religious’ Secular Government For Newtown Shooting

Oh, of course. It all makes sense now.

///

Well, we already know they are responsible for the "War On Christmas" which is OMG just like the Spanish Inquisition!1!ty so from there it's just a short hop to MASS SHOOTING OF KINDERGARTENERS.
//////

165 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:02:57pm

re: #153 Mr. Hammer

The article as a whole, either the entire part or the excerpts do the National Review no favors. It shows just how depraved the organization is, that they have no problem finding blame with anyone and anything other than the easy availability of the weapons used to kill so many children.

166 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:03:32pm

Another sample of NRO stupidity...

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

167 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:04:10pm

Doubling down. Their entrenched position weakens with every massacre.

168 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:05:36pm

re: #167 Amory Blaine

Doubling down. Their entrenched position weakens with every massacre.

We're defending the Constitution from Obama! Eleventy!

///

169 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:05:56pm

re: #163 The Ghost of a Flea

That's a lot of fancy grammar and intricate weaving just to say "fuck it, wasn't my kid."

170 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:06:49pm

re: #163 The Ghost of a Flea

And don't mention guns. Guns had nothing to do with this. You gun control zealots. //

171 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:06:55pm

re: #169 Ghost of Tom Joad

I know right. Someone lock up the thesaurus!!

172 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:08:03pm

re: #163 The Ghost of a Flea

Holy shit, they just keep getting dumber and more intent on finding a way on blaming liberals:

That's right folks, don't try and study the situation. Don't ask questions. It's an ineffable mystery...those nasty psych people are useless and we should totally dismiss them because god stuff.

Any god that would allow so many children to be killed in such a manner is not just a god not worth worshiping, but an evil, malevolent god that must be destroyed.

The question to ask this god is not "Why?", it's "How dare you?"

173 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:08:19pm

re: #163 The Ghost of a Flea

Holy shit, they just keep getting dumber and more intent on finding a way on blaming liberals:

That's right folks, don't try and study the situation. Don't ask questions. It's an ineffable mystery...those nasty psych people are useless and we should totally dismiss them because god stuff.

effing ineffable

174 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:08:41pm

re: #161 jaunte

The probable effect of bucket-heaving on Bushmasters?

Actually I believe the article was talking about the effects of janitorial buckets on the knees of would-be gunmen.

175 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:08:43pm

re: #163 The Ghost of a Flea

The "unfathomable opacity". Why aren't any of you people talking about that, instead of the guns? /

176 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:08:45pm

Ineffanuminous.

177 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:09:15pm

OT: Sorry for going off-topic, but holy shit! This Golden Eagle actually snatched a toddler off the ground and started to fly away with it. Thankfully, the dad reacted in time. When I saw the title "Golden Eagle Snatches Kid " I thought they meant a baby goat. Be sure to watch the slow-motion at the end. Gah! O_o

A friend of mine who lives in a rural area says they're huge, strong, and quite capable of carrying off anything smaller than they are: cats, dogs, chickens, etc.

178 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:09:29pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

It's CGI.

179 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:09:32pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

Umm.

180 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:10:08pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

They got me, too.

181 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:10:14pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

....Already been debunked. (though I'm sure the NRA is gearing up for an eagle-hunting campaign because of the video.)

182 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:10:20pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

It's a computer science project by a couple of students in Montreal. Not real.

183 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:10:25pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

Both the eagle and the kid are CGI:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

184 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:10:27pm
Coleridge, writing of Iago

I'd forgotten all about Coleridge. Did Iago have guns? Who knows? It's all unfathomable opacity to me. /

185 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:10:50pm

Back on topic:

186 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:11:23pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

OT: Sorry for going off-topic, but holy shit! This Golden Eagle actually snatched a toddler off the ground and started to fly away with it. Thankfully, the dad reacted in time. When I saw the title "Golden Eagle Snatches Kid " I thought they meant a baby goat. Be sure to watch the slow-motion at the end. Gah! O_o

A friend of mine who lives in a rural area says they're huge, strong, and quite capable of carrying off anything smaller than they are: cats, dogs, chickens, etc.

[Embedded content]

The video has been outed as a CGI project, no rare eagles or toddlers participated in the making of this video.

187 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:11:24pm

re: #184 Bulworth

The person from Porlock was packin'

188 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:11:29pm

re: #184 Bulworth

I'd forgotten all about Coleridge. Did Iago have guns? Who knows? It's all unfathomable opacity to me. /

Iago....unfathomable...

"INCONCEIVABLE!"
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

189 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:12:20pm
The psychologist, the social worker, likewise the “gun control” zealots, have nothing but nostrums for us in such cases.

Well, there goes the mental health diversion. //

190 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:12:34pm

I give credit that Heather MacDonald's addition to the symposium actually sounds sort of sane. Though maybe I'm being forgiving in my parsing of her paragraph on mental illness.

Okay, so Heather MacDonald is a deeply creepy person and I don't give her credit anymore. Should have looked her up first.

The rest isIt's all awful, and much of it creepily theocratic.

191 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:14:13pm

Has anyone looked at the Pilot defensive handgun training program? I think you see a good idea what training it takes to have a sane fighting chance.

BTW it's a 6 day really intense course.

[Link: www.firstcoastnews.com...]

If there were two airliners going my way identical in every way except one had an armed pilot, I'd likely take that plane. It is certainly not at all negative in my mind. It's a good example of professionals taking on another set of skill that lives depend on.

192 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:14:18pm

re: #178 Obdicut

re: #180 jaunte

re: #181 Ghost of Tom Joad

re: #182 lawhawk

re: #183 Lidane

Phew! Thanks for the heads-up.

193 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:14:35pm

re: #186 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Thx.

194 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:14:55pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

That might be a hoax, there is some debate...
Edit oops I'm late to the game

195 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:17:15pm
196 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:17:45pm

It's all meaningless and meaninglessness. It's all very unfathomable opacity. Only more gunz will solve our deepest, most unexplainable, existential crises. /

197 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:18:44pm

re: #185 lawhawk

That situation in St Louis crystalizes much of what's wrong with the current state of affairs.

Guy gets into discussion about Newtown. Argument gets heated. Guy thinks a threat was made. Runs out to car and grabs gun and fires it at the other person.

Turns out the guy shouldn't have had a gun - was a convicted felon for murder in NJ back in 1975 and he claims it was his wife's gun. As if that makes it any better. Today's situation at least ended without anyone dead, but that wasn't a sure thing.

Now imagine if the other people in that barbershop had guns. That's what so many others are advocating. They are pushing for additional armament of the population where even the slightest offense could lead to casualties, and casualties beyond those involved in the conflict.

198 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:18:47pm

re: #191 Political Atheist

If all they do is take that six day course and then don't regularly, very very regularly, practice, then it's not useful.

Also, the odds of the plane being hijacked are so low that taking time to even factor that is a waste of time you could be spent thinking about how much Duke sucks.

199 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:18:48pm

A horrible, horrible job that I worked at earlier this year for all of three weeks, actually had an "active shooter" plan in place, in case somebody started shooting the place up.

In the event of an "active shooter" my team was to immediately retreat into the secure computer room and lock the door from the inside.

200 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:19:18pm

OT
Sam Donaldson Arrested for DUI in Delaware



Police say they took him to a nearby station where he was booked and then arrested. Donaldson was cooperative during the ordeal, according to investigators.

His hairpiece, however, was released on it's own recognizance!
//

201 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:19:27pm

re: #194 Political Atheist

That might be a hoax, there is some debate...
Edit oops I'm late to the game

What makes it believable is that they're capable of killing fairly large mammals (like foxes, dogs, etc). Anyway, carry on!

202 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:19:35pm

re: #195 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Lil' Wayne? OMG rap music. Is this the 90s again?

Was it Bowles who said enema man and snoopy poop dog?

203 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:20:15pm

re: #190 The Ghost of a Flea

I give credit that Heather MacDonald's addition to the symposium actually sounds sort of sane. Though maybe I'm being forgiving in my parsing of her paragraph on mental illness.

The rest is awful, and much of it creepily theocratic.

Given that I think she's a white supremacist, or something close to that, do I even want to read it?

204 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:22:31pm

Darn, I had to go sell a bike (it's working!) and Mr. Hammer logged out. I am disappoint.

205 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:24:18pm

Answer to global warming? Blow it out of the sky baby!!! USA!! USA!!

206 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:24:21pm

Meanwhile, today in Hey, We're Just Asking Questions Here!

State Department addresses RWNJ claims about Clinton and Benghazi.

207 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:25:47pm

re: #205 Amory Blaine

Answer to global warming? Blow it out of the sky baby!!! USA!! USA!!

Too bad we still didn't have the ozone hole
[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]
//

208 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:26:10pm

re: #201 CuriousLurker

What makes it believable is that they're capable of killing fairly large mammals (like foxes, dogs, etc).

Or ducks:

One of my ducks just got grabbed by an eagle! Holy surreal Batman. On one hand I'm upset and furious....on the other I'm just 'wow oh wow' that was amazing.
...
At least I now know that my livestock guardian pup sounds the alarm with air critters too. That's why I actually saw it happen. She started barking like crazy, like she does with coyotes so I went out to see what was happening. Of course I was looking for ground foes when 'whoosh'....there goes the duck. :( I think the eagle was sitting up in a large tree, then dive bombed.

209 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:28:04pm

Not CGI

210 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:29:14pm

Keep getting told that arming teachers will give them a fighting chance, then looking at the growing popularity amongst gunman for body armor. Hell, Holmes even went the full nine and not only suited up in tactical gear, he used a smoke grenade while wearing a gas mask. Arming teachers won't stop determined gunmen, it'll just drive them to invest in body armor for their swan song. Then what, start issuing teachers armor-piercing rounds? Let them carry assault rifles?

211 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:30:50pm

re: #203 wrenchwench

Given that I think she's a white supremacist, or something close to that, do I even want to read it?

It's short, vague and says "everybody is appropriating this event, let's take some time." It's not that I agree with it, but that it's not bugfuck crazy.

Admittedly I wrote that last post without researching her. Would not be shocked about your assertion/opinion, though. Did a book called "The Immigrant Solution" and works for City Journal.

Okay, so I read some of her stuff and I've done some vigorous retracting, while leaving the original statements in strikeout. Thanks for the heads up.

212 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:31:41pm

re: #208 Interesting Times

I watched a great horned owl take my sister's cat once. In a way it was sort of divine justice since that damned cat ate my parakeet i had.

213 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:32:05pm

re: #210 Targetpractice

All that doesn't really matter. It's never about actual functionality. It's all about the "illusion" of safety.

214 stabby  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:32:54pm

re: #10 HappyWarrior

Honestly I think it's sad that they value their guns more than they do people. Paranoid zealots will be paranoid zealots.

It's the greed party, they value their everything more than they do people.

215 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:33:26pm

re: #213 Ghost of Tom Joad

re: #214 stabby

The Illusion Party.

216 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:33:51pm

re: #210 Targetpractice

Keep getting told that arming teachers will give them a fighting chance, then looking at the growing popularity amongst gunman for body armor. Hell, Holmes even went the full nine and not only suited up in tactical gear, he used a smoke grenade while wearing a gas mask. Arming teachers won't stop determined gunmen, it'll just drive them to invest in body armor for their swan song. Then what, start issuing teachers armor-piercing rounds? Let them carry assault rifles?

It's only a matter of time before the gunmen start using Terminator technology /////////////////////

217 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:34:08pm

Just in case you wanted to add to any weird/odd Christmas music playlists you might have:

90-Year-Old Acting Legend CHRISTOPHER LEE Releases Christmas Heavy Metal Singles (Audio)

218 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:36:12pm

re: #17 Interesting Times

Why not? Silly little draft dodger keeps it conveniently located in his underwear anyway.

OOOH BURN

219 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:36:50pm
220 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:37:03pm

re: #16 Kragar

Ted Nugent Blames CT Shooting on 'Politically Correct Culture'

Eat shit Ted.

He's just pissed that Discovery canceled his GUNS GUNS GUNS show.

221 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:38:22pm

re: #210 Targetpractice

Keep getting told that arming teachers will give them a fighting chance, then looking at the growing popularity amongst gunman for body armor. Hell, Holmes even went the full nine and not only suited up in tactical gear, he used a smoke grenade while wearing a gas mask. Arming teachers won't stop determined gunmen, it'll just drive them to invest in body armor for their swan song. Then what, start issuing teachers armor-piercing rounds? Let them carry assault rifles?

Personally, I find it both hilarious and incredibly hypocritical that the same assholes who whine about the jackbooted thugs in the teachers' unions and who want to strip collective bargaining rights and gut the entire public education system suddenly want teachers armed.

222 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:38:25pm

re: #22 nines09

We already knows he shits his pants. Maybe he's what they refer to in asylums as a "digger". Poop your pants and dig it out. Show the world. Make some art. Drop dead Ted.

Wasn't that a movie?

///

223 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:39:23pm

re: #217 Lidane

Just in case you wanted to add to any weird/odd Christmas music playlists you might have:

90-Year-Old Acting Legend CHRISTOPHER LEE Releases Christmas Heavy Metal Singles (Audio)

Seriously? Lee is 90?

How does he keep in such good physical condition at that age?

224 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:39:38pm

re: #191 Political Atheist

OT, but would you take a peek at my most recent page? Thanks.

225 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:39:42pm

re: #221 Lidane

Personally, I find it both hilarious and incredibly hypocritical that the same assholes who whine about the jackbooted thugs in the teachers' unions and who want to strip collective bargaining rights and gut the entire public education system suddenly want teachers armed.

Because really, people under the stress of watching their take-home pay shrink, their benefits disappear, and their job security reliant on whose ass they kiss should be trusted with a firearm around children. After all, it's not like they're postal workers...

///

226 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:39:50pm

re: #222 TedStriker

Wasn't that a movie?

///

Drop Dead Fred was....have to say I LOLed watching it.

227 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:40:02pm

re: #223 GunstarGreen

Seriously? Lee is 90?

How does he keep in such good physical condition at that age?

Pact with the Old Ones.

//

228 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:40:04pm

re: #220 TedStriker

Now, if they replaced that with Motley Crue's new show, Girls Girls Girls, I might actually watch... /

229 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:41:11pm

Customer Stands Pizza Joint’s Ground

Police said the incident unfolded about 4 p.m. inside [a] Little Caesars…after Randall White, 49, got mad about [the] service…This ”prompted them to exchange words and it became a shoving match,” said police spokesman Mike Puetz.

White raised a fist. Jock, a concealed-weapons permit holder, pulled out a .38 Taurus Ultralight Special Revolver.

He fired one round, hitting White in the lower torso. The men grappled and the gun fired again, hitting White in roughly the same spot, police said.

230 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:42:33pm

since the holidays approacheth I will shamelessly pimp A vary Scary Solstice

231 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:43:25pm

re: #177 CuriousLurker

OT: Sorry for going off-topic, but holy shit! This Golden Eagle actually snatched a toddler off the ground and started to fly away with it.

More drunken bullshit from the baby:

Image: 7OX9L.jpg

232 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:44:13pm

re: #229 The Ghost of a Flea

White raised a fist. Jock, a concealed-weapons permit holder, pulled out a .38 Taurus Ultralight Special Revolver.

This can't be true. I've been reassured over and over that CCW permit holders are well-trained and they don't hand them out to yahoos who are just going to use it to escalate a fistfight.

/

233 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:44:34pm

re: #52 nines09

Some just don't go down easy. After 30 rounds it's easier to gut too./

Because there's nothing left!

///

234 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:44:56pm

re: #223 GunstarGreen

Seriously? Lee is 90?

How does he keep in such good physical condition at that age?

He's a wizard.

235 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:45:29pm

re: #211 The Ghost of a Flea

It's short, vague and says "everybody is appropriating this event, let's take some time." It's not that I agree with it, but that it's not bugfuck crazy.

Admittedly I wrote that last post without researching her. Would not be shocked about your assertion/opinion, though. Did a book called "The Immigrant Solution" and works for City Journal.

Okay, so I read some of her stuff and I've done some vigorous retracting, while leaving the original statements in strikeout. Thanks for the heads up.

Yeah, it was mercifully short, and said we should use reason and facts before we act. Too bad those concepts are so malleable.

No prob on the heads up. I had to soften my statement in honor of Sergey, who I hope shall return some day, because he would want proof before accepting such a thing, and I don't have time to dig it up. But thanks for confirming my general sense.

236 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:47:45pm

re: #234 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

He's a wizard.

I actually preferred him as King Haggard. I don't give a damn what anybody says, The Last Unicorn had some amazing voice acting, bolstered by superb casting.

237 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:49:09pm

re: #198 Obdicut

What makes you assume they don't practice? These are professionals accustomed to having hundreds of souls in their care. they get it. I trust their judgement.

EDIT
If we did not have a blanket ban on civilian use of the taser pistol, maybe guns would not be desired by those many pilots who are certified for a gun in the cockpit.

238 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:49:13pm

re: #232 Obdicut

This can't be true. I've been reassured over and over that CCW permit holders are well-trained and they don't hand them out to yahoos who are just going to use it to escalate a fistfight.

/

Florida's standard is pretty much "you haven't been caught doing something awful and you're a citizen." Even Kentucky requires a gun safety course.

239 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:50:28pm

Because blowing a lot of money on failed elections = increased influence:

Must be the Karl Rove school of political jobbing.

240 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:50:38pm

re: #238 The Ghost of a Flea

Florida's standard is pretty much "you haven't been caught doing something awful and you're a citizen." Even Kentucky requires a gun safety course.

Hence the dumbshit who emptied the magazine into a black kid sitting in his car, because he "thought" he saw a shotgun.

241 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:51:21pm

re: #240 Targetpractice

Hence the dumbshit who emptied the magazine into a black kid sitting in his car, because he "thought" he saw a shotgun.

...retroactively, perhaps.

242 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:52:49pm

re: #81 wrenchwench

Obama's going to take everyone's bicycles away. You need to buy as many as you can right away, before it's too late.

It's worth a try.

Got a bit of a vested interest, don't ya?

////infinite

243 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:53:34pm

re: #242 TedStriker

Got a bit of a vested interest, don't ya?

////infinite

Why do you hate capitalism??!?!?!?

244 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:54:02pm

re: #230 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

since the holidays approacheth I will shamelessly pimp A vary Scary Solstice

Frosty the Snow Man, trapped in an eternal cycle of death and rebirth. He is condemned to inevitably melt away, but will be back again some day. His eyes of coal stare bleakly into the abyss.

245 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:03:29pm

re: #237 Political Atheist

What makes you assume they don't practice? These are professionals accustomed to having hundreds of souls in their care. they get it. I trust their judgement.

EDIT
If we did not have a blanket ban on civilian use of the taser pistol, maybe guns would not be desired by those many pilots who are certified for a gun in the cockpit.

Because of the time necessary, the limited facilities, etc. etc.

I don't assume shit about people's gun safety. I've believed far too long the people that reassured me CCW requirements were stringent.

246 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:15:05pm

re: #245 Obdicut

Since hijackings are about as common as incidents with guns and pilots... You are less concerned about a hijacker than a pilot with a gun practicing or not? That's kind of illustrative.

You could trust the very high standards and almost complete lack of incidents on a very reasonable logical basis. I'm starting to think you want rules set so high they serve as "poison pill" disincentives rather than just public safety.

247 Cinnabar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:19:04pm

re: #191 Political Atheist

Has anyone looked at the Pilot defensive handgun training program? I think you see a good idea what training it takes to have a sane fighting chance.

BTW it's a 6 day really intense course.

[Link: www.firstcoastnews.com...]

If there were two airliners going my way identical in every way except one had an armed pilot, I'd likely take that plane. It is certainly not at all negative in my mind. It's a good example of professionals taking on another set of skill that lives depend on.

Are you quite sure? In order to use his gun, the pilot would have to OPEN THE COCKPIT DOOR.

248 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:21:10pm

re: #247 Cinnabar

No, the door can be forced open, or another flight deck officer could do that if it were the right thing to do under their procedures, which are classified or at least unpublished.
[Link: www.wired.com...]

The number of pilots who have been through the training and are authorized to carry a gun in the cockpit has not been released. But Flagg told the Orlando Sun Sentinel that the number is just under the FBI which has 13,800 armed officers according to the paper.

249 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:21:46pm

BBL back to making some scratch

250 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:25:34pm

re: #231 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

More drunken bullshit from the baby:

Image: 7OX9L.jpg

LMAO

251 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:27:52pm

re: #8 Bulworth

The rwnj want an armed camp. Sounds like they watch way too many wild, wild west movies.

While ignoring that a lot of those movies include towns where everyone is required to check their guns upon entering.

252 Cinnabar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:42:14pm

re: #248 Political Atheist

No, I mean that the pilot would have to open the door and leave the cockpit before mixing in to something in the cabin.

If someone tried to force the cockpit door, there'd be time to go for the fire axe, which I consider safer than shooting into a pressurized space.

253 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:57:59pm

re: #246 Political Atheist

Since hijackings are about as common as incidents with guns and pilots... You are less concerned about a hijacker than a pilot with a gun practicing or not? That's kind of illustrative.

I'm not concerned about either.

You could trust the very high standards and almost complete lack of incidents on a very reasonable logical basis. I'm starting to think you want rules set so high they serve as "poison pill" disincentives rather than just public safety.

What very high standards? For CCW? Don't make me laugh, I've now actually done the research myself and the standards in many places are incredibly low.

254 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:10:57pm

re: #224 William Barnett-Lewis

OT, but would you take a peek at my most recent page? Thanks.

Did that, well done!

255 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:17:18pm

re: #253 Obdicut

I'm not concerned about either.

What very high standards? For CCW? Don't make me laugh, I've now actually done the research myself and the standards in many places are incredibly low.

High standards for airliner pilots. the whole subthread between us was pilots. And a 6 day course like that is perfect for CCW.

Now that you brought it up, you should also examine the stats on CCW carry. Like the likelihood of there being at least one CCW holder at the theater in Aurora. who sensibly fled with the rest of the crowd.

Keep this in mind too-CCW was not a criminal factor in any of the mass shootings. So a good safety record overall, no involvement in these mass shootings.

What is the real world basis for your concern?

I'd love to see CCW holders have to annually re certify their skills. Myself and my fellow trainers will make a bundle!

256 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:22:28pm

re: #255 Political Atheist

High standards for airliner pilots. the whole subthread between us was pilots. And a 6 day course like that is perfect for CCW.

A six day course is perfect? What the hell? You're joking, right? You think that most people will be able to react well in a crisis situation after six days of training? Seriously?

257 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:24:55pm

re: #256 Obdicut

Before I answer your question, I'd appreciate an answer to mine.

Keep this in mind too-CCW was not a criminal factor in any of the mass shootings. So a good safety record overall, no involvement in these mass shootings.

What is the real world basis for your concern?

258 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:26:52pm

re: #256 Obdicut

A six day course is perfect? What the hell? You're joking, right? You think that most people will be able to react well in a crisis situation after six days of training? Seriously?

And BTW I have been communicating with trainers and yes, we can prove a six day course is up to the task of the initial certification for safety and legal training.

What evidence do you have to the contrary?

259 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:30:23pm

re: #257 Political Atheist

Before I answer your question, I'd appreciate an answer to mine.

Keep this in mind too-CCW was not a criminal factor in any of the mass shootings. So a good safety record overall, no involvement in these mass shootings.

What is the real world basis for your concern?

Since I found out that the contention that CCW requirements are rigorous is bullshit, I'm not going to accept other assertions about CCW holders at face value either. I'd like to see an analysis, for example, that wasn't just blank statistics but contained analysis and correction for conflating factors.


I was never saying that CCW was a factor in mass shootings. No clue where you pulled that out of. I'm saying that it's pointless to let people carry around a gun if they don't have the rigorous training it'd take to use it well in a crisis. If they can't do that, there is no fucking point to carrying the gun. Right?

I don't care if what normally happens is that they freeze up and don't shoot or that they run away like a good person or whatever. They want to walk around while armed, I want them to have the skill and training to use that weapon in a crisis, because otherwise what possible reason do they have for carrying it around?

260 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:39:32pm

re: #259 Obdicut

The fact that you don't care how well they are doing under present rules is not (in my view) reasonable. It's too much data to dismiss. So much so it's inherently unfair. Intellectually short of a full box.

Solving problems that have nothing to do with the rate of killings by criminals is totally beside the point of what got us here-A mass killing by a criminal who stole the guns and forced his way in.

What evidence do you have a 6 day course is inadequate?

261 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:49:54pm

re: #260 Political Atheist

The fact that you don't care how well they are doing under present rules is not (in my view) reasonable. It's too much data to dismiss. So much so it's inherently unfair. Intellectually short of a full box.

You're missing my point. If they cannot carry the gun around and use it effectively in a crisis situation, why do they want to carry a gun around?

Solving problems that have nothing to do with the rate of killings by criminals is totally beside the point of what got us here-A mass killing by a criminal who stole the guns and forced his way in.

See, I don't just want to solve that problem. I also want to solve problems like the CCW carrier down in Florida who just shot someone, or George Zimmerman shooting someone, or all the accidental shootings we have, and all the other gun crime in this country. I assume you do too.

What evidence do you have a 6 day course is inadequate?

First of all, common sense. Learning how to get good at a simple, stupid computer game where your mistakes have no consequences and the interface is blatantly simple takes longer than six days. Second of all, the testimony of LEOs who say that regular retraining is necessary to stay sharp with crisis skills. Third, a friend of mine who is a SWAT team leader who I've been talking with as this has unfolded. He basically thinks anyone who thinks they can use their gun well in a crisis who isn't training 2-3 hours a day with it is incredibly self-deluded. Obivously his standards are sky-high, but he's the guy who's had to deal with armed civilians. Fourth, my own experience. I took some classes, you may remember, about half a year ago. A total of about twenty-five hours of instruction. I went back there last month, and could barely remember a damn thing about it.

Do you have anything showing that CCW holders can respond well in a crisis situation after a six day course? Any reason you do believe its efficacious?

262 druid for hire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:26:31pm

I don't think a cc permit holder requires swat training. If that brave principal could've planted a 9mm round in mrLanzas pelvis or head i am confident this conversation would be quite different. America has lots of problems. In this case it was one nutjob too many.

263 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:29:36pm

re: #262 druid for hire

I don't think a cc permit holder requires swat training. If that brave principal could've planted a 9mm round in mrLanzas pelvis or head i am confident this conversation would be quite different.

I'm not saying they need SWAT training. I'm saying they need enough training to be able to use their weapons effectively in a crisis. I do not think that six days of training however long ago is enough for that. I think being able to use your gun effectively in a crisis takes significant and ongoing training.

264 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:40:42pm
Do you have anything showing that CCW holders can respond well in a crisis situation after a six day course? Any reason you do believe its efficacious?

First a side note-We have been disagreeing a lot of late. Everyone is upset at recent events. Because we are not social pals, we have little friendly contact to balance. I'd like to reach out and say hey let's ease up a little, understand we want a friendly exchange of ideas. The tone between us has declined and I think that's fixable.

Okay to your question-
Yes, the record of the graduates I have seen and shot with. Which is not published except via FBI stats or similar. Which is national with varying levels or training and training requirements. I'm sorry we are on opposite coasts, I'd love to show you rather than tell you what can be taught in a few days. My experience teaching tactical defense skills for more than a decade has shown me how well or poorly people learn. But I can't write all that up and just post it.

The flight deck officer course was heavily reviewed. With some modification it would be excellent for CCW.
look at this link and see if you really thinks it's crazy short. Federal air marshal gun training is very very well regarded.
[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]
2) Training.—
(A) In general.— The Under Secretary shall base the requirements for the training of Federal flight deck officers under subsection (b) on the training standards applicable to Federal air marshals; except that the Under Secretary shall take into account the differing roles and responsibilities of Federal flight deck officers and Federal air marshals.
(B) Elements.— The training of a Federal flight deck officer shall include, at a minimum, the following elements:
(i) Training to ensure that the officer achieves the level of proficiency with a firearm required under subparagraph (C)(i).
(ii) Training to ensure that the officer maintains exclusive control over the officer’s firearm at all times, including training in defensive maneuvers.
(iii) Training to assist the officer in determining when it is appropriate to use the officer’s firearm and when it is appropriate to use less than lethal force.
(C) Training in use of firearms.—
(i) Standard.— In order to be deputized as a Federal flight deck officer, a pilot must achieve a level of proficiency with a firearm that is required by the Under Secretary. Such level shall be comparable to the level of proficiency required of Federal air marshals.
(ii) Conduct of training.— The training of a Federal flight deck officer in the use of a firearm may be conducted by the Under Secretary or by a firearms training facility approved by the Under Secretary.
(iii) Requalification.— The Under Secretary shall require a Federal flight deck officer to requalify to carry a firearm under the program. Such requalification shall occur at an interval required by the Under Secretary.

265 druid for hire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:08:18pm

I understand having a Barney Fife on the scene might create more problems than it solves but 20 dead kids ...... if only someone could've dissuaded this loon in a meaningful fashion.

266 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:08:56pm

re: #264 Political Atheist

First a side note-We have been disagreeing a lot of late. Everyone is upset at recent events. Because we are not social pals, we have little friendly contact to balance. I'd like to reach out and say hey let's ease up a little, understand we want a friendly exchange of ideas. The tone between us has declined and I think that's fixable.

I'm sorry, where in my past post do you see a problem with tone? I'm fine with a friendly exchange of ideas. That doesn't mean I'm going to hold back on criticism.

Yes, the record of the graduates I have seen and shot with. Which is not published except via FBI stats or similar. Which is national with varying levels or training and training requirements. I'm sorry we are on opposite coasts, I'd love to show you rather than tell you what can be taught in a few days. My experience teaching tactical defense skills for more than a decade has shown me how well or poorly people learn. But I can't write all that up and just post it.

I don't even understand what question you're trying to answer here. If it's this question "Do you have anything showing that CCW holders can respond well in a crisis situation after a six day course? Any reason you do believe its efficacious?" and your response is "I have anecdotal evidence", then I'm sorry, but why would you think that would be convincing?

And I don't know where you're going with the Air Marshall stuff. Why are we suddenly talking about Air Marshals?

From what I'm reading, Air Marshal training starts with a seven week course and then follows that up with a secondary phase that goes for I'm not sure how long. Obviously, a lot of that can be left out for the flight officers, since some of it has to do with laws, etc., but a lot of it is the tactical training.

267 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:09:44pm

re: #265 druid for hire

I understand having a Barney Fife on the scene might create more problems than it solves but 20 dead kids ...... if only someone could've dissuaded this loon in a meaningful fashion.

Well, his mother was a well-trained citizen who owned a lot of guns, and she couldn't stop him.

Can you be a bit more explicit about who should have dissuaded him, and how?

268 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:21:32pm

re: #266 Obdicut

The link is about pilots getting rated for a gun in the cockpit. The standard calls for a skill level comparable to air marshals. A pretty high standard. And the training to get there? 6 days. Of course a pilot needs to learn a lot less than an air marshal.

But the skill should be comparable.

I understand anecdotal evidence is weak. But I'm no lay person. I really did the work myself, with others a long time. Ordinarily we put some trust in professionals doing a particular job. SWAT guys think in terms of taking to the bad guys in a crowd. That's miles from CCW. Remember I have a liability as a trainer. No way could we get insured or stay in biz if our students were out there screwing up.

269 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:28:10pm

re: #268 Political Atheist

The link is about pilots getting rated for a gun in the cockpit. The standard calls for a skill level comparable to air marshals. A pretty high standard. And the training to get there? 6 days. Of course a pilot needs to learn a lot less than an air marshal.

I don't see where the link says that training is six days, though.

I understand anecdotal evidence is weak. But I'm no lay person. I really did the work myself, with others a long time. Ordinarily we put some trust in professionals doing a particular job. SWAT guys think in terms of taking to the bad guys in a crowd. That's miles from CCW. Remember I have a liability as a trainer. No way could we get insured or stay in biz if our students were out there screwing up.

Again: My basic argument is:

If a person wants to carry a gun in public, then he should be able to demonstrate that he can use that gun in a crisis in public. Because otherwise, there is zero reason for them to carry that gun.

So it's really not about the amount of time, because obviously some students will need a lot more time than others and some will need a lot less. It's more about then testing them afterwards. I should have stated this more clearly from the start; I got way too hung up on the six days thing. For some students, six days might be enough, and it might stick with them for months afterwards, even though I severely doubt it. It obviously isn't enough for everyone.

What I would like is for once a month, a CCW holder to have to go and do some 'tactical usage' test in a crisis situation set up by the police department or what have you, and prove they can still use the weapon effectively. If they can't, then there is no point in them having the weapon.

270 druid for hire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:54:25pm

i disqualify his mother because she apparently didn't see the potential for this type of violence in her son. tho she owned several guns i doubt she holstered up every morning, or left the ar15 out on the counter. based on what i've read about what she shared w/her drinking buddies she never saw this (being shot in the face by her son) coming. this occurrence ranks up there with flying planes into buildings. unthinkable.....until now.
re: stopping him at the school? hindsight is 20:20 there's really only one way to deal with an armed nutjob ....... shoot him. too bad security measures didn't plan for all eventualities. too bad no one looking out for these innocents had a gun to counter him.

'aggression unchallenged is aggression unleashed'

271 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 5:39:47pm

re: #253 Obdicut

I'm not concerned about either.

What very high standards? For CCW? Don't make me laugh, I've now actually done the research myself and the standards in many places are incredibly low.

If the standards are so low how do you explain the extremely low number of improper uses of a concealed gun? The record we have indicates people are being careful and conservative in the use of the concealed guns. Because of the mass shooting that had no ccw implications at all?

272 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 5:46:39pm

A CCW forum compile some stats. With links in it.

Justified Shootings in 2008, according to FBI-Statistics: 245
Out of those 245 shootings, CCW-Licensees were involved in 69 Shootings.
Out of those 245 Shootings, 1 was ruled unjustified.

[Link: www.defensivecarry.com...]

A government survey of male felons in 1982 [8] found:
- 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
- 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
- 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim

273 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:04:14pm

re: #271 Political Atheist

If the standards are so low how do you explain the extremely low number of improper uses of a concealed gun? T

I don't understand why there's a connection. If we gave most people a CCW they wouldn't get into any trouble with it, even with zero training.

The record we have indicates people are being careful and conservative in the use of the concealed guns. Because of the mass shooting that had no ccw implications at all?

Again: I don't care if they're careful and conservative. I care if they have a valid reason to be carrying it around. If they don't it's just an added risk, no matter how small. If they can't use the gun in a crisis, what good is them carrying the gun around? Why do they want to carry it around if they couldn't actually use it confidently in a crisis?

274 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:07:44pm

re: #272 Political Atheist

I really don't think citing a CCW forum is appropriate, do you? Especially one that doesn't seem to be differentiating between legal carriers and illegal, in terms of who got scared off/shot at? I mean, I'm not going to start citing this place: [Link: www.vpc.org...] .


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