Wingnut Fight! Dana Loesch Sues #Breitbart.com

How could a love so right go so wrong?
Wingnuts • Views: 45,284

Tonight we have word of big trouble on the far right, as the Breitbrats begin fighting in earnest over the empire that Breitbart built: Talk Radio Host Dana Loesch Files Suit in St. Louis Against Breitbart.com.

I’ve been wondering why Loesch’s wingnut screeds haven’t been appearing there lately — now we know.

Conservative talk radio host and commentator Dana Loesch sued the owner of the conservative website Breitbart.com Friday, claiming that although her relationship with the news and opinion aggregating website had gone “tragically awry,” Breibart.cοm LLC refused to let her work for the company or anyone else, forcing her into “indentured servitude in limbo.”

The suit, filed in U.S. District Court here, seeks at least $75,000 in damages, as well as a judge’s declaration that her contract had expired.

The suit says that difficulties managing the Breitbart “media ‘empire’” or ideological conflicts or both had spiked the working relationship, creating a “increasingly hostile” work environment. When Loesch tried to terminate her work agreement in September, Breitbart refused and extended the agreement by a year, the suit says.

(h/t: wrenchwench.)

UPDATE at 12/21/12 9:07:25 pm

Here’s the legal document filed by Dana Loesch:

Jump to bottom

445 comments
1 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 5:57:25pm

Two wingnuts enter, one wingnut leaves! Two wingnuts enter, one wingnut leaves!

2 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 5:58:28pm

This promises to be highly entertaining.

3 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:01:28pm

Footage of the scuffle in progress:

Youtube Video
4 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:01:34pm
the Breitbart 'media empire’

For some reason that made me think of 'the sick man of Europe'

5 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:02:00pm

Bummer man. //

6 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:02:58pm

Tragic. Truly tragic. Think of all the brave truth-telling that won't occur because of the law suit's demand for resources. // dripping

On a happier note, someone might hire O'Keefe as an expert witness. That ought to impress the judge.

7 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:03:36pm

Also tonight, David Frum and Glenn Reynolds are getting into an epic pissing match.

8 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:03:42pm
Conservative talk radio host

Is she really on the radio, or is it make believe radio, AKA the internet?

9 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:04:18pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

Also tonight, David Frum and Glenn Reynolds are getting into an epic pissing match.

Christmas came early?

10 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:04:26pm

re: #3 goddamnedfrank

Footage of the scuffle in progress:

[Embedded content]

Sweet!

11 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:04:30pm

re: #6 EPR-radar

Tragic. Truly tragic. Think of all the brave truth-telling that won't occur because of the law suit's demand for resources. // dripping

On a happier note, someone might hire O'Keefe as an expert witness. That ought to impress the judge.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE VETTING? WHAT ABOUT BENGHAZI?!!

12 Lidane  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:04:42pm

Obligatory, and entirely un-PC:

South Park Video

Dana Loesch and Breitbart fighting is like this fight, but much less awesome.

13 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:05:03pm
14 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:06:13pm

re: #6 EPR-radar

Tragic. Truly tragic. Think of all the brave truth-telling that won't occur because of the law suit's demand for resources. // dripping

On a happier note, someone might hire O'Keefe as an expert witness. That ought to impress the judge.

I think Orly Taitz is looking to expand her legal empire. Maybe she'll just hire herself, like usual, then threaten everybody else with treason charges for laughing at her.

This could be really good.

15 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:06:46pm

re: #3 goddamnedfrank

Footage of the scuffle in progress:

[Embedded content]

That's exactly the soundtrack for it.

16 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:06:49pm

I'll bet what this lawsuit really means is that Loesch's deal with Breitbart.com had her working for them for almost nothing, and now she wants to cash in.

17 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:07:42pm

Going for some of those sweet Coulterbucks.

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:08:58pm

Check out @DavidFrum's timeline...

19 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:09:04pm

Speaking of the Breitbartians, apparently they've got an "exclusive" on GOP plans to unseat Boehner as Speaker come Jan 3rd.

20 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:09:47pm

re: #15 wrenchwench

That's exactly the soundtrack for it.

Benny Hill theme would also work.

21 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:10:50pm

I'll bet Loesch's ego was damaged when Breitbart went out and hired pseudo-journalists from the Daily Caller and Wash. Times, and paid them a lot more than she was getting.

22 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:10:58pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Check out @DavidFrum's timeline...

Frum seems to have realized just what sort of crazy train he booked passage on and is now trying madly to get off before it heads over the cliff.

23 Lidane  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:11:56pm

OT, but hilarious and sad:

24 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:13:10pm

Later, lizards.

25 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:13:13pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Two wingnuts enter, one wingnut leaves! Two wingnuts enter, one wingnut leaves!

Dark_Falcon as the Master of Ceremonies: "And right now I've two wingnuts, to wingnuts for whom the sight of Obama brings a gut full of fear. Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, DERPing time's here."

26 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:13:14pm

re: #23 Lidane

OT, but hilarious and sad:

[Embedded content]

Because it's a documentary, you know.

headdesk.

27 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:13:59pm

re: #21 Charles Johnson

I'll bet Loesch's ego was damaged when Breitbart went out and hired pseudo-journalists from the Daily Caller and Wash. Times, and paid them a lot more than she was getting.

It's not like this kind of content is hard to generate. Access to psychedelic drugs, a list of the RW talking points du jour from Boss Limbaugh, a vivid imagination, and a certain level of manic energy should suffice.

If rabid weasels could be taught to write, payroll expenses could be further reduced.

28 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:14:16pm

re: #23 Lidane

OT, but hilarious and sad:

[Embedded content]

...

I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

29 Lidane  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:14:35pm
30 wilburs  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:17:27pm

Another frivolous lawsuit against the job creators!

31 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:18:44pm

re: #28 Targetpractice

...

I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

What's the right week to quit drinking?

32 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:19:02pm

You can tell what's going on from the relatively low amount she's seeking in damages. She was working for peanuts.

33 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:19:54pm

re: #23 Lidane

Tupelo, Mississippi; also home to Bryan Fischer.

[Link: twitter.com...]

34 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:20:49pm

re: #32 Charles Johnson

You can tell what's going on from the relatively low amount she's seeking in damages. She was working for peanuts.

Hey, I thought only liberals sued. Shouldn't she just take personal responsibility and move on? //

35 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:20:52pm

re: #32 Charles Johnson

You can tell what's going on from the relatively low amount she's seeking in damages. She was working for peanuts.

I don't know about that. What's the going rate these days for wingnut punditry? Could she do better on Twitchy?

36 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:21:03pm

re: #23 Lidane

OT, but hilarious and sad:

[Embedded content]

Cool. I went and saw The Hobbit. I am more afraid of Orcs right now.

37 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:22:18pm

re: #35 Skip Intro

Most of the people who wrote for Breitbart when he was alive were doing it for free, or close to free.

38 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:22:27pm

re: #33 jaunte

Tupelo, Mississippi; also home to Bryan Fischer.

[Link: twitter.com...]

You'd expect to find crazy wingnuts there, its Mississippi.

39 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:22:55pm

re: #37 Charles Johnson

Most of the people who wrote for Breitbart when he was alive were doing it for free, or close to free.

Overpaid, every one of them.

40 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:23:07pm
41 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:24:32pm

People like their cheap labor I guess.

42 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:25:06pm

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

Based on his timeline, I think this guy may be an AFA member.

43 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:25:40pm

I caught some of Frum's postings. Didn't know what set him off, but now that I see that it's in response to Glenn Reynolds, I've got to hand it to Frum for going off on him as he has.

He's going to be a while though. There aren't many places where fed officers shouldn't be located.

A few more that he might have missed:
Post offices
Factories
Warehouses
Restaurants
Bodegas
Gas stations
Gun shop

44 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:25:54pm

re: #40 Gus

[Embedded content]

There aren't enough people who could be Federal agents to protect against that level of stupidity.

45 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:27:01pm

Bring back the Stasi!! An agent in every pot!!

46 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:27:01pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

There aren't enough people who could be Federal agents to protect against that level of stupidity.

Nor is there enough for every school, didn't stop the NRA lobby from proposing it as a serious thing.

47 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:27:05pm

re: #43 lawhawk

I caught some of Frum's postings. Didn't know what set him off, but now that I see that it's in response to Glenn Reynolds, I've got to hand it to Frum for going off on him as he has.

He's going to be a while though. There aren't many places where fed officers shouldn't be located.

I only looked at a couple, but it looked like he linked each tweet to a real event. Hell of a job, that.

48 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:28:38pm

re: #34 Gus

Hey, I thought only liberals sued. Shouldn't she just take personal responsibility and move on? //

Heh. I still remember an incident where it looked like Robert Bork would become a plaintiff in a random trip/fall lawsuit. I don't think this went forward, but if it had, the irony would have reached critical levels.

49 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:28:48pm

Ah, Buster Wilson, the Red Dawn literalist, is the GM of American Family Radio

Know God, No Guns
When we had prayer freely in the schools, when we could post the Ten Commandments and such, we didn’t have school shootings like the Conn. shootings today. But we have spent the last 50 years telling God we don’t want Him in our schools. No wonder the protective hedge of Gods hand is not seen on a day like today! How can anyone scream anger at God and blame Him for not stopping something like this, when we have told Him over and over, “Get out! We have a ‘wall of separation’ between us and You!”
...snip.....
But know this, my friend. If there had been a member of the staff at that school who had a legal, concealed carry permit, and was allowed to actually carry their weapon on a school campus, this tragedy would have been less gruesome! I wish I had been there, a legal carry citizen, and had been able to pull my weapon and return fire!

50 Lidane  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:28:51pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

Nor is there enough for every school, didn't stop the NRA lobby from proposing it as a serious thing.

That's just it -- they're not proposing it as a serious thing.

They did it to get everyone talking about the idiocy and expense of getting armed guards in every school, and now no one is talking about sensible gun regulations at all.

51 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:29:02pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

Nor is there enough for every school, didn't stop the NRA lobby from proposing it as a serious thing.

I thought they were proposing using vigilantes, like the neighborhood watch guy in Florida.

Just think of the lawsuits the schools would face. Maybe that's the real plan.

52 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:30:29pm

re: #47 Skip Intro

Yeah. Pretty depressing when you think about it. That there's all these homicides and venues to choose from.

53 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:32:27pm

TO LIVE AND DIE IN AMERICA
U.S. Shooting Deaths Since Sandy Hook Top 100

3 Shot And Killed In Mich... 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies... Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself... Man Shoots, Kills Own Son... Cops Shoot Teen Dead... Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot... 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings... 2 Murdered In Philly... 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead... Shooter Killed... 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot... Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend... Man Shot To Death... Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot... Man Shot Dead In Street... Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death... Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting... Man Shoots, Kills Intruder... 1 Killed In Coney Island... Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds... Cops Investigate Gun Death... Shooting Victim's Body Found On Bike Trail... Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead... Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest... Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup... Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death... Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead... Man Fatally Shot Near Home... Parolee Dies In Shooting... 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting... Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex... Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander... Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Woman Shot Dead By Intruder... 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack... Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot... Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend... 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead... 2 Die In Attempted Robbery... Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley... Man Shot To Death In Bodega... 2 Shot Dead In Burned House... Man Shot During Break-In... Man Fatally Shot... 20-Year-Old Gunned Down... Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit... 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting... Cops ID Shooting Victim... 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead... Shot Man's Body Found In Vacant House.... Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home... Shooting Victim Was 'Trying To Turn Life Around'... Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street.... Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies... 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting... Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife... Man Shot Dead Outside Home... 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings... Cops Investigate Shooting Death... Man Shot Dead In Ohio... Teen Shot To Death... Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times... Man Charged Over Son's Shooting Death... Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead... 1 Dies In Shooting... Man Charged Over Gun Killing... 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation... Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting... Motel-Owner Shot And Killed... Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead... Suspect Arrested Over Deputy's Shooting Death... Police Probe Fatal Shooting... Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths... Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber... Man Killed In Home Invasion.... Nightclub Shooting Kills 1... Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting... Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife... Body Found In Vacant House... Teen Fatally Shot...

54 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:32:52pm

re: #50 Lidane

That's just it -- they're not proposing it as a serious thing.

They did it to get everyone talking about the idiocy and expense of getting armed guards in every school, and now no one is talking about sensible gun regulations at all.

And when they finally get around to so much as a pilot program, the GOP will bitch about the cost and try to take an axe to it.

55 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:32:53pm
56 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:34:04pm

re: #53 Gus

TO LIVE AND DIE IN AMERICA
U.S. Shooting Deaths Since Sandy Hook Top 100



57 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:35:08pm
Al Boe @AlBoeNEWS
21 Dec 12
@GunDeaths How do you ensure you do not tweet about the same death twice?

Maybe a death deserves more than one tweet.

58 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:36:07pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

Frum seems to have realized just what sort of crazy train he booked passage on and is now trying madly to get off before it heads over the cliff.

He knows fully what sort of train it is. He has a track record of being utterly sensible for a long streak, and then ending his streak by going ahead and publicly supporting whatever candidate or policy he just spent the previous two weeks bashing non-stop. It's puzzling.

59 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:36:10pm
60 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:36:12pm

re: #53 Gus

There you go bringing facts into the debate. We can't have any of that nonsense. Now bugger off while I prostrate myself before a graven image of Jesus of the AK-47 smiting unbelievers and Democrats with a hail of holy hellfire bullets. After that, the next step in my nightly 6-hour gun/Jesus devotions cannot be discussed in polite company... //massive

61 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:37:04pm

re: #53 Gus

Quiet week, actually.

62 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:37:43pm

re: #53 Gus

If Buster Wilson had been there, it would have been different.

63 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:37:54pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Check out @DavidFrum's timeline...

E P I C

and he links every single time.

64 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:38:41pm
65 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:38:49pm

re: #61 Skip Intro

Quiet week, actually.

Average total gun deaths for a week would be 245.

66 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:38:58pm

Maddow: Wayne LaPierre earned was paid over $960,000 in 2010.

67 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:39:49pm

re: #49 jaunte

Ah, Buster Wilson, the Red Dawn literalist, is the GM of American Family Radio

But know this, my friend. If there had been a member of the staff at that school who had a legal, concealed carry permit, and was allowed to actually carry their weapon on a school campus, this tragedy would have been less gruesome!

He doesn't for a second consider the possibility that the armed staff member could have been the first one to catch a bullet.

68 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:40:45pm

In other news today, I see that Obama nominated Kerry.

I still think this is a wrong move, and only furthers my despair over what I see as a real lack of imagination at the top of the Democratic Party these days.

69 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:40:47pm

re: #65 Gus

Average total gun deaths for a week would be 245.

Does that count include homicides ruled justifiable, including people shot by police?

70 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:41:06pm

re: #67 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

He doesn't live in an evidence-based world.

71 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:41:06pm

re: #40 Gus

[Embedded content]

He had a link for every one.

That's the stupidity, and I do think/hope/yearn that this time it's different.

72 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:41:44pm

re: #66 jaunte

Maddow: Wayne LaPierre earned was paid over $960,000 in 2010.

There's good money in being a RW apparatchik. Will someone please tell me again how the "free market" is infallible at properly assigning values?

I need to kick a few easy targets so I'm not cranky over the holidays.

73 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:42:06pm

re: #68 freetoken

In other news today, I see that Obama nominated Kerry.

I still think this is a wrong move, and only furthers my despair over what I see as a real lack of imagination at the top of the Democratic Party these days.

No, its based on a calculation by the Obama administration not to spend political capital getting his choice of SecState.

74 wilburs  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:42:06pm

re: #48 EPR-radar

Heh. I still remember an incident where it looked like Robert Bork would become a plaintiff in a random trip/fall lawsuit. I don't think this went forward, but if it had, the irony would have reached critical levels.

No, he sued the Yale Club, and eventually the suit was settled before trial.

He was not only ridiculed for his hypocritical, frivolous suit, but for the amateurish drafting of his legal argument.

75 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:42:29pm

re: #67 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

He doesn't for a second consider the possibility that the armed staff member could have been the first one to catch a bullet.

Maybe they would, but Buster has the Shield O' God© protection wrap, with TrueAim©, so he'd be fine.

76 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:43:25pm

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

What's the right week to quit drinking?

Airplane.

77 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:44:44pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

There are many people who could be SoS.

That Obama picked someone from the good ol' boy club (Senate) who is also part of the inner clique of Democratic leaders just tells me that Obama's stack is in overflow, to use a comp sci illustration.

78 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:45:37pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

Does that count include homicides ruled justifiable, including people shot by police?

Let's see. The total for last year was 31,236 gunshot related deaths which is 85.57/day. So average week would be about 599.

79 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:45:39pm

Here's a few others that David didn't include:

Police officer murdered outside suburban church after car chase.

Post offices.

Those two events occurred within a few miles of where I currently live.

Jewish community centers.
YMCAs.

VFWs

Knights of Columbus

National Parks (and here)

As I've said, it's a whole lot easier to figure out where not to station a federal officer since murders have occurred in every conceivable kind of venue.

80 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:46:41pm

re: #78 Gus

Let's see. The total for last year was 31,236 gunshot related deaths which is 85.57/day. So average week would be about 599.

Source: [Link: www.slate.com...]

81 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:47:19pm

re: #77 freetoken

There are many people who could be SoS.

That Obama picked someone from the good ol' boy club (Senate) who is also part of the inner clique of Democratic leaders just tells me that Obama's stack is in overflow, to use a comp sci illustration.

Plus, why give the GOP another chance at a MA Senate seat? If the Dem candidate bothers to run, MA is always a long shot for the GOP, but Scott Brown should have been allowed to rot a few years in total obscurity before his next attempt.

82 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:47:27pm

Already passed 100 and it's now 112 dead.

[Link: www.slate.com...]

83 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:47:58pm

Goes up in the Spring and Summer months.

84 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:48:29pm

re: #66 jaunte

Maddow: Wayne LaPierre earned was paid over $960,000 in 2010.

She probably made twice that.

85 wilburs  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:48:47pm

re: #77 freetoken

There are many people who could be SoS.

That Obama picked someone from the good ol' boy club (Senate) who is also part of the inner clique of Democratic leaders just tells me that Obama's stack is in overflow, to use a comp sci illustration.

Obama has relied on Kerry for quite some time. Kerry was the guy sent to Pakistan after the OBL takedown to explain the new order of things to the Pakistanis.
Obviously he was successful.

86 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:48:53pm

re: #79 lawhawk

Heck, law enforcement officers have been killed in pretty much every kind of venue as well.

87 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:48:53pm

re: #82 Gus

And to confound the claims of the NRA, Japanese theatre is notorious for its fantasized violence.

And you know how many Japanese have died of gun shots the past week?

I suspect it is zero.

88 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:49:23pm

re: #81 EPR-radar

Plus, why give the GOP another chance at a MA Senate seat?

Double plus, why give the Swiftboaters another chance? There had to be someone else. This is going to end up costing Obama more than fighting for Rice would have, IMO.

89 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:50:11pm

re: #85 wilburs

Obviously he was successful.

That's good.

And we have diplomats all over world who successfully carry out there jobs too. But they are not part of the inner clique in DC.

90 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:50:56pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

She probably made twice that.

Interesting. Do you really want to get into a question of who does more apparent work here?

My claim is that LaPierre draws a million a year for breathing. He certainly isn't doing anything original.

91 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:51:32pm

re: #88 Skip Intro

Double plus, why give the Swiftboaters another chance? There had to be someone else. This is going to end up costing Obama more than fighting for Rice would have, IMO.

Loss of Senate seniority is another problem with the pick.

92 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:52:27pm

re: #87 freetoken

And to confound the claims of the NRA, Japanese theatre is notorious for its fantasized violence.

And you know how many Japanese have died of gun shots the past week?

I suspect it is zero.

And to further confound the claims of the NRA, some Japanese animation is filled with gore that makes "Saw" look like "A Charlie Brown Christmas". So again.....why aren't the Japanese all killing each other?

93 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:54:19pm

re: #92 Dr Lizardo

And to further confound the claims of the NRA, some Japanese animation is filled with gore that makes "Saw" look like "A Charlie Brown Christmas". So again.....why aren't the Japanese all killing each other?

Not to mention the freaky pornography that has been attributed to having the fallout from two atomic bombs in the background...

94 wilburs  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:54:48pm

re: #89 freetoken

That's good.

And we have diplomats all over world who successfully carry out there jobs too. But they are not part of the inner clique in DC.

He's going to pick someone he is comfortable with

And papering over that type of violation of sovereignty is no small task.

I wished he had picked some one else, I am not looking forward to another special election

95 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:54:52pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

She probably made twice that.

Irrelevant, Maddow isn't advocating for the industry paying her, in the face of massive opposition, logic and ethics.

In other words, her pay isn't her main motivation.

96 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:56:26pm

re: #93 EPR-radar

Not to mention the freaky pornography that has been attributed to having the fallout from two atomic bombs in the background...

One of my faves as of late is "Maria Holic". About a pretty and vivacious lesbian girl who goes to an all-girls Catholic school to find her true love. And she meet her true love.............who's a cross-dressing boy.

Hilarity ensues!

97 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:57:21pm

re: #93 EPR-radar

Not to mention the freaky pornography that has been attributed to having the fallout from two atomic bombs in the background...

Hey, what Cthulhu does to make money is not our concern.

//

98 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:58:00pm

re: #95 b_sharp

In other words, her pay isn't her main motivation.

Even if it is, the equivocation is a red herring.

99 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 6:59:17pm

re: #97 Targetpractice

Hey, what Cthulhu does to make money is not our concern.

//

Meh. It's a living. -Cthulhu.

100 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:01:45pm

No doubt a victim of violent television shows:

Family struggling to pay for murdered Harvey man's funeral

As many families prepare for the Christmas holiday, one Harvey family is gearing up to bury their loved one. Troy Hensley was killed by gunfire on Monday night walking on crutches to a neighborhood store.

Now his family is trying to figure out how to pay for the West Bank man's funeral.

[...]

101 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:03:44pm

re: #96 Dr Lizardo

One of my faves as of late is "Maria Holic". About a pretty and vivacious lesbian girl who goes to an all-girls Catholic school to find her true love. And she meet her true love.............who's a cross-dressing boy.

Hilarity ensues!

From the Wikipedia summary (and the fact there is a summary on Wikipedia), it looks like this title is not an example of either freaky pornography or outlandish gore.

If it is, please let me know, so I can avoid surprises from relying on Wikipedia.

102 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:05:49pm

re: #95 b_sharp

Irrelevant, Maddow isn't advocating for the industry paying her, in the face of massive opposition, logic and ethics.

In other words, her pay isn't her main motivation.

Take away her 2-3 million dollars a year and see if she still shows up every day to read the script that's written for her.

103 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:06:31pm
Youtube Video
104 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:06:35pm

This is America:


Seems humans not getting smarter

Much has been made lately in this paper about the theory of evolution vs. creationism. By these very labels, evolution is made to sound proper as a scientific principle while creation is an afterthought as an “ism”. I agree that species have adapted and changed to their environments over the eons. But if this were an absolute, wouldn’t the human race become more intelligent as time goes by? I look around and don’t see it.

[...]

Naturally there is talk of gun control after the massacre of last week. Are the nations that don’t allow guns talking of knife control? In some countries, people go crazy in crowds with knives. Oops, political correctness faux pas; I said crazy.

I have a cousin who was in Little Rock in 1990 in the Air Force. He told me last Saturday about a rash of high school suicides while he was there. The news covered every one like a blanket. There were more and more until someone decided not to mention the deceased ones names, to mention the act in passing and move on with the news. Suddenly the suicides stopped. Is there a lesson to be learned here? Can we evolve past this current era of tons of data but no information? All the sharing of feelings and trying to prove how much we care?

Its presumed anymore that if you don’t wear you heart on your sleeve, you don’t care. Having 24 hours a day to fill on TV doesn’t help. The murderer was said to be intelligent; to what degree, we’ll never know.

John Shultz
Doniphan

Yes, that's why we see so many people killing each other - because we share our feelings too much.

And it's proof against evolution.

So there.

105 jamesfirecat  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:07:54pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

She probably made twice that.

Your proof being?

106 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:09:08pm

re: #101 EPR-radar

From the WIkipedia summary (and the fact there is a summary on WIkipedia), it looks like this title is not an example of either freaky pornography or outlandish gore.

If it is, please let me know, so I can avoid surprises from relying on Wikipedia.

It's more along the lines of yuri, or "Girl's Love". It's actually quite humorous, with rapid-fire dialogue and a good deal of stream-of-consciousness internal monologues.

It's on YouTube.

Youtube Video
Subtitled in English, original Japanese dialogue.
107 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:09:08pm

It's pretty clear that LaPierre's level of compensation is directly associated with the excellent sales of the highly profitable and dangerous products he shills for.

108 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:10:39pm

NRA needs to stop relying on clueless old men for their PR work. All Lapierre had to do was come out in favor of background checks and trigger locks / guns safes. That wouldn't have solved the problem, but it would have at least made the organization look like it was in some mode other than pure, pathetic denial. They had an opportunity to look like they were taking the situation seriously, and broadcast a broad tack to a slightly more reasonable position.

Instead all Wayne did today was remind every gun owner that doesn't belong to the NRA why they don't belong to the NRA.

109 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:10:52pm

re: #104 freetoken

Well, if there has been a shooting, there are three relevant elements:

1) The shooter

2) The shooter's weapon(s)

3) Cultural influences on the shooter.

Most would agree that this list is sorted by relevance from most to least.

So then why does half the country want to completely ignore #2 in favor of #3 and perfect policing fantasies relating to #1?

110 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:11:10pm
111 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:12:37pm

It's hardly an Earth-shaking insight, but it's occurred to me that the NRA's descent into utter madness has paralleled that of the Republican Party. Looking at the NRA today, it is mind-boggling to realize that they actually supported both the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968. As with so many things, the rot really set in during the 1980s and the Reagan Administration. Since the accession of Wayne LaPierre in 1991, this process has accelerated, with the NRA actively and openly courting the extreme right. We see the results today, a huge and well-heeled organization made up largely of paranoid conspiracy theorists.

113 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:14:50pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

She's the best journalist around.

Fuck off.

114 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:15:54pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Wee bit catty tonight?

116 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:17:29pm

re: #114 William Barnett-Lewis

Wee bit catty tonight?

Defending LaPierre's compensation by bringing up Rachel Maddow is like putting the "kick me" sign on yourself rather than the other guy.

117 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:19:41pm

Why have any laws?

118 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:20:00pm

re: #111 Shiplord Kirel

It's hardly an Earth-shaking insight, but it's occurred to me that the NRA's descent into utter madness has paralleled that of the Republican Party. Looking at the NRA today, it is mind-boggling to realize that they actually supported both the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968. As with so many things, the rot really set in during the 1980s and the Reagan Administration. Since the accession of Wayne LaPierre in 1991, this process has accelerated, with the NRA actively and openly courting the extreme right. We see the results today, a huge and well-heeled organization made up largely of paranoid conspiracy theorists.

It's really fucking sad and angry making to realize how far they've fallen. It'd be nice if this country had a sane, grounded in reality mainstream gun rights organization that was willing to engage in honest debate and make common sense compromises. Whoever thought it was wise to forge a political alliance with insane ultra-right wing bigots and religious fanatics has effectively killed both the NRA's and the GOP's long term future on the national stage.

119 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:20:57pm

re: #116 EPR-radar

That sounds like everything else the Republicans have been doing since Romney spoke in front of the NAACP just to show that he's willing to insult them, insult all poor people and insult all black people.

120 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:21:09pm
121 Kruk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:22:52pm

re: #87 freetoken

And to confound the claims of the NRA, Japanese theatre is notorious for its fantasized violence.

And you know how many Japanese have died of gun shots the past week?

I suspect it is zero.

Not to mention that most of the Western world voraciously consumes "violent" American media (including movies, rap music and computer games) without the same spate of shootings.

Most of the Western world is going through the worst recession in living memory without the same spate of shootings.

Most of the Western world has creaking and barely adequate mental health and social support systems without the same spate of shootings.

Most of the Western world has similar political tensions, ethnic and relgious differences and criminal elements as the United States without the same spate of shootings.

What factor common in large scale shootings is the one thing that makes the US almost unique in the Western World? Think real hard, Wingnuts.

122 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:23:26pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Take away her 2-3 million dollars a year and see if she still shows up every day to read the script that's written for her.

Well, we've finally gotten down to the problem here. It's not Wayne LaPierre, it's Rachel Maddow!

[Dun, dun, dun.]

123 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:24:12pm

re: #122 Gus

Well, we've finally gotten down to the problem here. It's not Wayne LaPierre, it's Rachel Maddow!

[Dun, dun, dun.]

Youtube Video
124 Kruk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:24:15pm

re: #110 jaunte

[Embedded content]

That reminds of an old saying:

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

125 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:24:25pm

In honor of trout, I am now watching Rachel Maddow, and she's saying that the official position of her show is that there IS a Santa Claus, who is right now living at the north poll, making a list etc.

I think the topic is going to be Rudolf though.

126 Kragar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:24:43pm

Poor Dana

Youtube Video
127 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:25:02pm

re: #121 Kruk

Not to mention that most of the Western world voraciously consumes "violent" American media (including movies, rap music and computer games) without the same spate of shootings.

Most of the Western world is going through the worst recession in living memory without the same spate of shootings.

Most of the Western world has creaking and barely adequate mental health and social support systems without the same spate of shootings.

Most of the Western world has similar political tensions, ethnic and relgious differences and criminal elements as the United States without the same spate of shootings.

What factor common in large scale shootings is the one thing that makes the US almost unique in the Western World? Think real hard, Wingnuts.

Freedom!

This is a trick question, right?

128 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:25:19pm

I'd like to believe that the NRA made a serious mistake today by spouting their usual line of bullshit.

But Americans have a long history of falling for the Wild West fantasy these people are peddling.

Maybe it's time for it to change.

129 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:25:25pm

re: #124 Kruk

That reminds of an old saying:

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

I'm not saying that screwing for virginity would work, I'm just saying that we should try it!

130 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:26:32pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Take away her 2-3 million dollars a year and see if she still shows up every day to read the script that's written for her.

I love this theory you have that all TV hosts are identical and just read things written for them. It doesn't require any evidence at all, and runs contrary to every single fact known about Maddow. In this make believe world of yours a Rhodes scholar with a degree in public policy and doctorate in politics has no role or agency in the opinions and positions she articulates and staunchly defends.

131 Kragar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:26:35pm

So I'm all set to relax for the next few days and my wife says "I need to get a few things at the mall tomorrow."

Grounds for divorce, right?

132 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:27:06pm

re: #122 Gus

What I don't get is how the MBF is supposed to even get off the ground with LaPierre being compared to Maddow.

LaPierre is the "dear leader" of a rabidly ideological organization.

Maddow is a left-leaning journalist.

Send for the heavy-duty MBF, stat!

133 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:28:29pm

The NRA has a program to keep children safe from guns that they might find lying around. It relies on their taking responsibility for informing an adult that this mysterious, desirable totem of power has been left where they can touch it, but they won't touch it, oh no.
[Link: eddieeagle.nra.org...]

If you've never heard of it, it's probably because their priority is not child safety, but paying lobbyists like LaPierre.

134 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:32:42pm

re: #133 jaunte

The NRA has a program to keep children safe from gun that they might find lying around. It relies on their taking responsibility for informing an adult that this mysterious, desirable totem of power has been left where they can touch it, but they won't touch it, oh no.
[Link: eddieeagle.nra.org...]

If you've never heard of it, it's probably because their priority is not child safety, but paying lobbyists like LaPierre.

I like how the on-line description of this program points out that the Eddie Eagle program does not mention the NRA at all --- they know their brand is toxic to just about everyone except the true believers.

135 Kragar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:32:48pm

Henri the existential cat has a Christmas message

Youtube Video
136 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:35:02pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

I really think that the NRA was figuring that they had only one goal in mind - to reaffirm to their brethren that they're not going to change course no matter what.

They proffered a "solution" to the problem that they'd laugh off the table had a Democrat proposed it - a police officer in every school? That'd be treated as caving to unions, big government, and a sign that the government wants to take your guns. Instead, they offered it up ignoring that preventing firearms falling into the wrong hands could save more people.

Indeed, Nancy Lanza, a legal gun owner, died because her own guns fell into the hands of someone who shouldn't have had them - her son.

137 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:36:12pm

re: #132 EPR-radar

What I don't get is how the MBF is supposed to even get off the ground with LaPierre being compared to Maddow.

LaPierre is the "dear leader" of a rabidly ideological organization.

Maddow is a left-leaning journalist.

Send for the heavy-duty MBF, stat!

It's the holidays, can't you hear the theme music for "Dance of the Magical Balance Fairy" playing in the background? Sounds like a mix of the Nutcracker and Benny Hill.

138 ElCapitanAmerica  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:38:16pm

Getting the popcorn and enjoying the schadenfreude.

139 Kragar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:39:07pm

re: #138 ElCapitanAmerica

Getting the popcorn and enjoying the schadenfreude.

Image: aVZgT.gif

140 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:42:06pm
Youtube Video
141 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:43:23pm

re: #140 goddamnedfrank

Hrmm. Youtube's new start time code format isn't working for me.

142 Kragar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:47:20pm

America’s highest paid CEO accused of running ‘ponzi scheme’

America’s best paid chief executive has been accused of duping some of the world’s poorest people out of $3.8bn (£2.4bn) in “the best-managed pyramid scheme in the history of the world”.

Michael Johnson has been accused of misleadingly implying that his Herbalife empire of self-employed salespeople could all become millionaires selling dieting supplements door-to-door.

Bill Ackman, a famous activist investor, launched an extraordinary attack on Johnson and said he had made it his “patriotic” duty to bring the company down.

Ackman claims that 1.9 million Herbalife salespeople from Arizona to Zambia have failed to make money since the company was founded 32 years ago. Each sales recruit would have paid about $2,000 for supplies and training, which Ackman said meant they had collectively lost $3.8bn. Last year Johnson earned $89m, according to financial researchers GMI Ratings.

In a three-and-half hour presentation entitled “how to be a millionaire” Ackman, founder and chief executive of hedge fund Pershing Square Capital Management, accused Herbalife of running a modern day “ponzi scheme”.

143 Kruk  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:49:48pm

re: #131 Kragar

So I'm all set to relax for the next few days and my wife says "I need to get a few things at the mall tomorrow."

Grounds for divorce, right?

My wife said we needed to visit one store to get a last minute gift.

Three hours and half a dozen stores later...

144 darthstar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:50:32pm

How could anyone named Lana Douche feel like a disposable tool?

145 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:53:01pm

re: #142 Kragar

America’s highest paid CEO accused of running ‘ponzi scheme’

From the summary, this sounds like a bog standard pyramid marketing scheme. Since these are effective wealth concentration methods that do not rely on blatant fraud or force, I would be surprised if they are illegal.

Plus, the shareholder lawsuit is a bit fishy. The shareholder plaintiff has a large short position in the company, so he has an interest in seeing it go belly up.

146 Kragar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:53:11pm

13 dead, 21 injured and the 2 of them committed suicide. How did the armed guards help again?

147 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:54:41pm

re: #146 Kragar

[Embedded content]

13 dead, 21 injured and the 2 of them committed suicide. How did the armed guards help again?

It would be nice if Fischer et al. would stop their incessant readings from the RW Holy Babble, Book of Armaments.

148 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:56:41pm

re: #142 Kragar

You mean, there actually are people out there that did not know that Herbal Life was a ponzi scheme?

149 darthstar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 7:56:49pm

Image: 430856_574616872552093_2074039907_n.jpg

150 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:00:43pm

Richard W. Painter- The N.R.A. Protection Racket

The Republican Party — once a proud bastion of civic and business leaders who battled Southern racism, Northern corruption and the evils of big government — has for the past several decades been itself the victim of political protection rackets. These rackets are orchestrated by fringe groups with extremist views on social issues, which Republican politicians are forced to support even if they are unpopular with intelligent, economically successful and especially female voters. Their influence was already clear by the time I joined the Bush White House staff in 2005, and it has only increased in the years since.

The most blatant protection racket is orchestrated by the National Rifle Association, which is ruthless against candidates who are tempted to stray from its view that all gun regulations are pure evil.

151 lostlakehiker  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:01:29pm

re: #88 Skip Intro

Double plus, why give the Swiftboaters another chance? There had to be someone else. This is going to end up costing Obama more than fighting for Rice would have, IMO.

I'll bet not. Kerry's nomination will sail through.

152 Skip Intro  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:03:18pm

re: #151 lostlakehiker

I'll bet not. Kerry's nomination will sail through.

I just can't see anything sailing through, unless the GOP thinks they can pick up a Senate seat.

153 darthstar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:04:23pm

re: #152 Skip Intro

I just can't see anything sailing through, unless the GOP thinks they can pick up a Senate seat.

Why would the GOP want to pick up a Senate seat? They're just going to fuck it up anyway.

154 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:04:31pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Take away her 2-3 million dollars a year and see if she still shows up every day to read the script that's written for her.

Every time I check in and see your comments, I see the push. The anti. No one knows what KT stands for anymore, except, read LGF, he's against whatever the post du jour is. (with music, please.....Are you dreaming of a Christmas Flounce?)

155 darthstar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:07:43pm

re: #154 Stanghazi

Every time I check in and see your comments, I see the push. The anti. No one knows what KT stands for anymore, except, read LGF, he's against whatever the post du jour is. (with music, please.....Are you dreaming of a Christmas Flounce?)

I feel sorry for people like KT. They're so hell bent on scoring a point here or there that they close themselves off to any credibility in simple discussion.

156 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:10:35pm

re: #154 Stanghazi

It may also shock you to learn that Crispy Coated Fruit Puffs are not part of a nutritionally balanced breakfast. It's a marketing scheme concocted by advertising executives to sell you flavored chemicals invented by scientists in a laboratory.

157 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:12:57pm

re: #155 darthstar

I feel sorry for people like KT. They're so hell bent on scoring a point here or there that they close themselves off to any credibility in simple discussion.

He'd pissed away his credibility a year ago with his OWS fearspazm.

158 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:19:04pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

It may also shock you to learn that Crispy Coated Fruit Puffs are not part of a nutritionally balanced breakfast. It's a marketing scheme concocted by advertising executives to sell you flavored chemicals invented by scientists in a laboratory.

Oooh. KT, you're the dude!

159 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:23:45pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

It may also shock you to learn that Crispy Coated Fruit Puffs are not part of a nutritionally balanced breakfast. It's a marketing scheme concocted by advertising executives to sell you flavored chemicals invented by scientists in a laboratory.

So Maddow's researched commentary is akin to cereal marketing? Kilgore, you have Christmas stockings full of misdirected cynicism.

160 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:24:35pm

Hey Charles, time to re-listen to Jason Mraz Mr. A-Z

Youtube Video
161 Mattand  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:24:54pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Take away her 2-3 million dollars a year and see if she still shows up every day to read the script that's written for her.

She did that already. It's called "Every job she had up until the Air America gig, and even that probably did pay that much."

Seriously, what the hell is it with you and Maddow? I can see not liking her style, or agreeing with her. This bullshit that she's a puppet who can't string a coherent thought together is no different that the "Obama can't live without his teleprompter" idiocy.

162 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:31:59pm

Al Gore Rachel Maddow!

//

Jimmy Carter.

163 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:33:16pm
164 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:34:40pm

re: #161 Mattand

Intelligent leftists with a pair apparently scare him.

165 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:34:47pm

prairie!

166 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:35:35pm

Leno is on.. They have been amazing lately

167 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:35:37pm

Chris Christie notes the obvious flaw in NRA plan:
Schools are three dimensional.

“In general I don’t think that the solution to safety in schools is putting an armed guard because for it to be really effective in my view, from a law enforcement perspective, you have to have an armed guard at every classroom,” Christie said while appearing at an event in Newark, N.J. “Because if you just have an armed guard at the front door then what if this guy had gone around to the side door? There’s many doors in and out of schools.”

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

168 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:36:57pm

So the NRA wants to create a Big Government Run School-Security-Industrial Complex™ or back a private McSecurity™?

169 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:37:18pm

I get the feeling that in a hundred years or so whatever passes for hipsters will be buying up old rural American dirt farms and using metal detectors to find and unearth massive arms caches. Time capsules filled with .223 Remington and anti-Obama literature.

170 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:37:21pm

Talk about mainlining the school to prison pipeline.

171 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:42:24pm

No Firearms May Be Carried At The NRA Convention

[Link: www.defensivecarry.com...]

They're not that crazy.

172 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:43:25pm

re: #168 Gus

So the NRA wants to create a Big Government Run School-Security-Industrial Complex™ or back a private McSecurity™?

Ya know?

The whole thing was a joke.

A total joke.

hour, hour and a half after the bells were ringing and the silence.

173 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:47:03pm

re: #167 jaunte

Chris Christie notes the obvious flaw in NRA plan:
Schools are three dimensional.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

He's right but I can totally see this being used by his right wing detractors to claim he's a gun grabber because he didn't take the NRA's word as gospel truth.

174 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:49:24pm

Ha!

This is what I said last week.

I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O

Using those same figures and 100,000 schools you'll get $17,796,400,000 or roughly speaking $18 billion dollars. :D

175 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:50:38pm
Youtube Video


Love, all love. Sleep all day.

176 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:53:47pm

re: #146 Kragar

There was an armed law enforcement officer at Columbine. What we need are armed teachers. - Bryan Fischer

We could probably use armed janitors, too.
And while we're at it, maybe arm the cafeteria ladies as well.
And don't forget the bus drivers.
And the guidance counselors.

177 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:54:22pm

re: #176 BongCrodny

We could probably use armed janitors, too.
And while we're at it, maybe arm the cafeteria ladies as well.
And don't forget the bus drivers.
And the guidance counselors.

Coaches- need to arm the coaches.

178 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:54:35pm

Fortress America. It's coming.

179 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:54:37pm

re: #169 goddamnedfrank

I get the feeling that in a hundred years or so whatever passes for hipsters will be buying up old rural American dirt farms and using metal detectors to find and unearth massive arms caches. Time capsules filled with .223 Remington and anti-Obama literature.

But... the GLOCKS!! - they're made out of plastic.

180 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:55:16pm

re: #176 BongCrodny

Armed cafeteria ladies? I've never been so scared!

181 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:56:06pm

re: #161 Mattand

She did that already. It's called "Every job she had up until the Air America gig, and even that probably did pay that much."

Seriously, what the hell is it with you and Maddow? I can see not liking her style, or agreeing with her. This bullshit that she's a puppet who can't string a coherent thought together is no different that the "Obama can't live without his teleprompter" idiocy.

Maddow was a Rhodes Scholar and earned a doctorate from Oxford.

Clearly, she's an imbecile.

182 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:56:14pm

re: #177 HappyWarrior

And don't forget the bus drivers.

Who could forget Mad Max?

183 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:56:15pm

I often wonder what the world will be like in, say, 14 centuries.

Imagine it is the year 3361...

184 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:57:07pm

re: #183 freetoken

I often wonder what the world will be like in, say, 14 centuries.

Imagine it is the year 3361...

Makes me likewise wonder what the people in the seventh century wondered about us.

185 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:57:58pm

re: #183 freetoken

I often wonder what the world will be like in, say, 14 centuries.

Imagine it is the year 3361...

People walking around with just heads implanted on a metallic spider like walking contraption.

186 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:58:53pm

Oh, and don't forget the sports teams.

Imagine the football squad packing G36's under their padding as they hit the field.

187 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:59:39pm

re: #181 BongCrodny

Maddow was a Rhodes Scholar and earned a doctorate from Oxford.

Clearly, she's an imbecile.

He retreated.

Up to the line, then retreat. What do you guys call that?

188 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 8:59:49pm

re: #161 Mattand

She did that already. It's called "Every job she had up until the Air America gig, and even that probably did pay that much."

Seriously, what the hell is it with you and Maddow? I can see not liking her style, or agreeing with her. This bullshit that she's a puppet who can't string a coherent thought together is no different that the "Obama can't live without his teleprompter" idiocy.

I've been mocking LaPierre's compensation up and down this thread, and the response is to pivot to Maddow. Telling, that.

189 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:00:11pm

re: #174 Gus

That's about 10% as expensive as the Iraq war was (on a yearly basis).

sigh, I suppose it's in the realm of possibility to actually do that.

190 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:00:13pm

JIMMY MADDOW!
RACHEL CARTER!
OWRA!
RAWR!

191 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:00:32pm

re: #183 freetoken

I often wonder what the world will be like in, say, 14 centuries.

Imagine it is the year 3361...

I'll let you know.

192 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:01:13pm

I wish people would stop giving KT air. Talking down RM is mere misdirection and trolling.

Just downding him and ignore.

193 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:01:53pm

re: #183 freetoken

I often wonder what the world will be like in, say, 14 centuries.

Imagine it is the year 3361...

Wayne Lapierre's name will be a killing word.

Youtube Video
194 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:02:02pm

re: #187 Stanghazi

He retreated.

Up to the line, then retreat. What do you guys call that?

Wasting our fucking time.

195 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:04:32pm

re: #184 HappyWarrior

Makes me likewise wonder what the people in the seventh century wondered about us.

I don't recall any 7th century writers off the top of my head, but the most famous I suppose would be Pope Gregory I.

196 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:06:23pm

re: #195 freetoken

I don't recall any 7th century writers off the top of my head, but the most famous I suppose would be Pope Gregory I.

It's too bad illiteracy was rampant back then. Too much thoughts lost to the grave. First hand accounts fascinate me.

197 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:06:37pm

re: #188 EPR-radar

I've been mocking LaPierre's compensation up and down this thread, and the response is to pivot to Maddow. Telling, that.

Crap on a cracker.

198 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:06:38pm

re: #189 stabby

That's about 10% as expensive as the Iraq war was (on a yearly basis).

sigh, I suppose it's in the realm of possibility to actually do that.

The laws of probability would probably find it necessary. We don't need another TSA, we don't need another agency. We don't need a further lurch towards a security state. We don't need a "Public School Patriot Act."

199 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:06:41pm

Video games don't kill people, people do.

200 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:06:52pm

re: #183 freetoken

I often wonder what the world will be like in, say, 14 centuries.

Imagine it is the year 3361...

All our personalities will reside in electronic, distributed storage: 'the cloud.'

Unfortunately it will be subscription-based.

201 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:07:21pm

re: #199 Varek Raith

Video games don't kill people, people do.

The day that video games are illegal is...

202 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:07:54pm

So, since La means "The" and "Pierre" means Peter, does that mean that Wayne LaPierre means "Wayne the Pe...."?

I'm sorry, I'm sorry -- I'm just being a dick.


Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee.

203 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:08:51pm

re: #192 stabby

I wish people would stop giving KT air. Talking down RM is mere misdirection and trolling.

Just downding him and ignore.

But but but he was so important to the existence of LGF. //// Which I never use. CHEERS.

204 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:09:06pm

re: #202 BongCrodny

So, since La means "The" and "Pierre" means Peter, does that mean that Wayne LaPierre means "Wayne the Pe...."?

I'm sorry, I'm sorry -- I'm just being a dick.

Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee.

Hey, there was a baseball player in the 70's. No joke. Name was Pete LaCock.

205 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:09:30pm

re: #189 stabby

That's about 10% as expensive as the Iraq war was (on a yearly basis).

sigh, I suppose it's in the realm of possibility to actually do that.

The cost is irrelevant. We cannot go this way and remain a civilized society. This is the domestic policy equivalent of out 9/11 fear-spasm.

La Pierre bitches about video game dystopias, and then makes proposals to bring them about.

206 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:10:42pm

I think it's funny we hear "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" from people like LaPierre who would be perfectly fine with banning movies, music, video games, and literature they deem indecent.

207 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:10:50pm

The PDF complaint filed by Loesch:

Scribd Document
208 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:10:55pm

If Wayne Lapierre isn't going to stand up for the First Amendment, blaming violent media and video games, on what basis does he think people will stand up for the Second?

Epic rhetorical failure.

209 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:10:55pm

re: #204 HappyWarrior

Hey, there was a baseball player in the 70's. No joke. Name was Pete LaCock.

NASCAR driver named Dick Trickle.

210 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:11:02pm

re: #205 EPR-radar

The cost is irrelevant. We cannot go this way and remain a civilized society. This is the domestic policy equivalent of out 9/11 fear-spasm.

La Pierre bitches about video game dystopias, and then makes proposals to bring them about.

Guess he's never seen the stuff on Japanese television.
But, with all that violent media, Japan is the gun spree capital of the world!
Wait...

211 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:11:22pm

re: #167 jaunte

Chris Christie notes the obvious flaw in NRA plan:
Schools are three dimensional.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Does everyone remember Beslan?

It was much worse. They killed the kids, they killed the parents, they raped the kids, they blew the place up and themselves.

After that, I spent time wondering how we would cope if Beslan like attacks became common. What we would do if that was what a war in our near future looked like.

At the time I imagined that we would have to break schools up. Certainly the model where a classroom is one teacher and 5 kids was always much more effective than large schools anyway. And if the classroom wasn't in a "school" building, not near other classrooms, then there would be no target.

In the present, people can go to lecture online more cheaply than they can go to school. Then the problem is, you still need babysitters.

212 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:11:29pm

re: #209 austin_blue

NASCAR driver named Dick Trickle.

And you know there's a Harry Dick out there.

213 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:12:09pm

re: #179 freetoken

But... the GLOCKS!! - they're made out of plastic.

And see, making a statement like using metal detectors to find Glocks automatically disqualifies you from having any opinion on guns. That's how it works, right?

There you have it today, folks. The high priest of the cult of the Gun has spoken, and there will be no deviation from the dogma. None. Today Wayne LaPierre stood up and told you in no uncertain terms that the Gun still rules over America and you can never, ever sacrifice enough people to sate it.

So what's it going to be? Acquiesce and mumble something about 'Constitution' and 'responsible gun owners'? That's what everyone expects - that's what's happened every other time. Or is it time to finally expect better?

214 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:13:55pm

re: #212 HappyWarrior

And you know there's a Harry Dick out there.

Paging Jack Mehoff...

215 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:14:37pm

re: #214 austin_blue

Paging Jack Mehoff...

Mr. Hugh Jass on line one.

216 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:14:37pm

In other news:

Federal judge blocks Missouri law to deny birth control coverage

A federal judge on Friday blocked a new Missouri law that requires health insurers to offer plans that exclude contraception coverage if employers or individuals object to birth control on moral or religious grounds.

U.S. District Judge Audrey Fleissig granted a temporary restraining order preventing the enforcement of the law, writing that it appears to conflict with the new federal health care law.

[...]

217 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:15:31pm

re: #214 austin_blue

Paging Jack Mehoff...

Amanda Huggankiss.

218 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:16:42pm

re: #207 Charles Johnson

The PDF complaint filed by Loesch:

[Embedded content]

My first thought? Doesn't she have an ego?

I'll confess I don't know much about legal documents but I expected a lot less "Me! Me! Me!"

219 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:18:46pm

On the previous thread, I got a request to Page this comment. I'm a poster, not a Pager. Feel free to do with this what you want. It's in the Public Domain.

"Derp.

My response:

Keep your guns. We won't even try to institute a buy-back program for them. There are too many of them and we don't have the money. And we aren't going to try to regulate your guns, either. We are going to regulate the number of bullets you can put in one.

And that number is six. Just six. We will even trade your big clips with new, smaller ones, for free! We will make sure that if plugs are needed for internal magazines, you can get them, for free! But if you don't follow the rules, you get a nickel in the gray-bar hotel, courtesy of Uncle Sugar. You'll love Joliet!

So people, you can keep and bear your arms. Keep your concealed carry permit. You can arm your teachers, if you like. You can hire Kindergarten Cops, if you like. But we will do our best to ensure that no one will be able to shoot 26 people, including 20 six and seven year old children, to pieces in three minutes.

Six shots, reload. Six shots, reload. A bunch of people are running at you. And you've got six shots.

Feel lucky, punk?"

220 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:19:26pm

re: #207 Charles Johnson

The PDF complaint filed by Loesch:

[Embedded content]

Future law professor, Year 3361:

"And as you will learn in this classroom, the issue of indentured servitude was settled back in 2013, when the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri ruled in Derp v. Derp,..."

221 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:20:48pm

"Tragically awry"

222 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:21:26pm

"Pathetically unkempt"

223 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:22:02pm

re: #204 HappyWarrior

Hey, there was a baseball player in the 70's. No joke. Name was Pete LaCock.

re: #209 austin_blue

NASCAR driver named Dick Trickle.

re: #214 austin_blue

Paging Jack Mehoff...

re: #215 HappyWarrior

Mr. Hugh Jass on line one.

Good Lord, I created a monster!

224 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:23:13pm

"Inappropriately histrionic"

225 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:24:28pm

re: #210 Varek Raith

Guess he's never seen the stuff on Japanese television.
But, with all that violent media, Japan is the gun spree capital of the world!
Wait...

Battle Royale would probably blow his mind --- send him away gibbering in terror, or give him a 20 minute orgasm.

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:25:15pm

re: #219 austin_blue

The mechanisms already exist from the failed 94 AWB for 10 round based laws. If anything happens it will be built around that number.

227 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:28:14pm

Sir there's a Mr. Heywood Jablomey on the phone..

228 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:32:06pm

re: #219 austin_blue

And that number is six. Just six. We will even trade your big clips with new, smaller ones, for free! We will make sure that if plugs are needed for internal magazines, you can get them, for free! But if you don't follow the rules, you get a nickel in the gray-bar hotel, courtesy of Uncle Sugar. You'll love Joliet!

It's still an unworkable proposal. It would require welding the cylinders of seven plus shot revolvers, major gunsmithing for tubular magazine lever actions, and the voluntary surrender of millions upon millions of external mags. It posits that large lever action cowboy .22s and antique LeMatt black powder revolvers that are virtually never used in crime are worse than ultra compact semi-autos, cheap Saturday Night Specials and small frame revolvers that are frequently used to kill people.

It's rigid absolutism for its own sake.

229 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:35:07pm

re: #228 goddamnedfrank

so some variation that isn't absolutist

jeeze

230 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:35:07pm

re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

The mechanisms already exist from the failed 94 AWB for 10 round based laws. If anything happens it will be built around that number.

But why ten rounds? The vast majority of revolvers have six. The .45 has seven, an easy fix. There's not a standard hunting rifle out there that has more than six. The guns that have more than six are semiautomatic pistols and dick guns (battle rifle wannabes).

Ten is arbitrary. Six is logical.

231 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:37:23pm

re: #228 goddamnedfrank

Fair enough, I suppose, but the window of opportunity for something sane is closing fast. The NRA has put forth its batshit proposal to make the whole country like the Mos Eisley cantina from Star Wars.

This batshittery is leading to a few modest proposals in response.

If sensible gun owners want something useful to come out of all of this, they need to find a way to delegitimize the NRA fast. Personally, I don't see it happening.

232 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:39:30pm

re: #230 austin_blue

But why ten rounds? The vast majority of revolvers have six. The .45 has seven, an easy fix. There's not a standard hunting rifle out there that has more than six. The guns that have more than six are semiautomatic pistols and dick guns (battle rifle wannabes).

Ten is arbitrary. Six is logical.

In all the Westerns I've seen you're supposed to be able to shoot a gang of 12 with just two six shooters. Then you got your speedloaders.

233 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:40:02pm

re: #232 Gus

In all the Westerns I've seen you're supposed to be able to shoot a gang of 12 with just two six shooters. Then you got your speedloaders.

In under 3 seconds. John Wayne made me violent. :D

234 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:40:58pm

re: #228 goddamnedfrank

It's rigid absolutism for its own sake.

That kind of magic thinking, terribly reminiscent of fundamentalist religion, is quite popular with some these days.

235 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:41:22pm

re: #228 goddamnedfrank

It's still an unworkable proposal. It would require welding the cylinders of seven plus shot revolvers, major gunsmithing for tubular magazine lever actions, and the voluntary surrender of millions upon millions of external mags. It posits that large lever action cowboy .22s and antique LeMatt black powder revolvers that are virtually never used in crime as if they're worse than ultra compact semi-autos, cheap Saturday Night Specials and small frame revolvers that are frequently used to kill people.

It's rigid absolutism for its own sake.

Then we will agree to disagree. Something must be done. I threw that out there for discussion. Trading out high-cap magazines for free with low caps is infinitely more doable than a gun buy-back program. And why on earth do you need more than six bullets, anyway? If I can't shoot the bear, protect my home, or take down a public shooter with six shots, then I'm incompetent and deserve to die.

236 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:41:29pm

While there's only one Jerry Miculek, he proves that getting 12 shots on target out of a six shot revolver in 3 seconds is possible. Lots and lots of people died by gunshot when revolvers were the state of the art.

re: #229 stabby

so some variation that isn't absolutist

jeeze

10 rounds is doable, that was the old AWB standard. That's the situation here in California, but even our strictest in the nation law exempts tubular magazine lever action rimfires. 10 rounds doesn't require the surrender of the vast majority of magazines in circulation. There are also significant constitutional issues with making people felons for continuing to possess an artifact that was legal when they bought it.

237 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:42:10pm

re: #230 austin_blue

But why ten rounds? The vast majority of revolvers have six. The .45 has seven, an easy fix. There's not a standard hunting rifle out there that has more than six. The guns that have more than six are semiautomatic pistols and dick guns (battle rifle wannabes).

Ten is arbitrary. Six is logical.

See my page if you actually want something that might pass. Otherwise carry on.

238 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:43:40pm

re: #236 goddamnedfrank

While there's only one Jerry Miculek, he proves that getting 12 shots on target out of a six shot revolver in 3 seconds is possible. Lots and lots of people died by gunshot when revolvers were the state of the art.

10 rounds is doable, that was the old AWB standard. That's the situation here in California, but even our strictest in the nation law exempts tubular magazine lever action rimfires. 10 rounds doesn't require the surrender of the vast majority of magazines in circulation. There are also significant constitutional issues with making people felons for continuing to possess an artifact that was legal when they bought it.

With respect to the constitution, where there is political will, there is a way. Roosevelt forcing gold out of circulation comes to mind.

239 stabby  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:43:55pm

Youtube just recommended some hour long derp "The Great Deception: Obama and the Coming War *PLEASE SHARE* " and gave as a reason that I liked Obama's ad about Big Bird. WTF.

I miss the days before schizophrenics learned to do video editing. DAMN YOU APPLE.

240 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:44:36pm
Isn't fantasizing about killing people as a way to get your kicks really the filthiest form of pornography? - Wayne LaPierre

And why is it again that all those NRA members buy assault weapons for self defense??

241 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:45:11pm

re: #237 William Barnett-Lewis

See my page if you actually want something that might pass. Otherwise carry on.

Uh oh.

[Spaghetti Western music.]

242 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:46:23pm

re: #240 Mich-again

And why is it again that all those NRA members buy assault weapons for self defense??

Imaginary government agents coming to imprison them of course.

243 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:46:43pm

re: #241 Gus

Uh oh.

[Spaghetti Western music.]

Shit just got real.

244 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:47:37pm

re: #243 Four More Tears

Shit just got real.

Yeah, did you see that? Whew. :i

245 jaunte  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:47:48pm

Are the armed school guards supposed to begin firing at the first suspicious move they see, or do they have to wait until someone actually gets shot, and then begin firing at whoever they think is the shooter?

246 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:50:50pm

re: #245 jaunte

Are the armed school guards supposed to begin firing at the first suspicious move they see, or do they have to wait until someone actually gets shot, and then begin firing at whoever they think is the shooter?

Good question.

247 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:50:58pm

re: #245 jaunte

Are the armed school guards supposed to begin firing at the first suspicious move they see, or do they have to wait until someone actually gets shot, and then begin firing at whoever they think is the shooter?

It would be very boring. Then you have a rather substantial floor plan to be, tactically aware of. 20,000 SF maybe? More. Each room has a fire door. Once a crazed assailant locks himself in, there isn't much you can do. Essentially each school would have to on 24 hour lock down.

Nice environment to raise children aye?

248 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:51:53pm

While Wayne LaPierre was wowing the presser crowd with his wild and crazy guy show, Asa Hutchinson was delivering the same MOAR GUNZ! message at the NRA site.. And he says not to worry about the cost because it will be staffed by locals who volunteer to serve as armed guards.

Armed, trained, qualified school security personnel will be one element of that plan, but by no means the only element. If a school decides for whatever reason that it doesn't want or need armed security personnel, that of course is a decision to be made by parents at the local level.

The second point I want to make is that this will be a program that doesn't depend on massive funding from local authorities or the federal government. Instead, it'll make use of local volunteers serving in their own communities.

Perfect.. George Zimmerman with a Glock roaming the school halls looking for any kids who violate the dress code and wear their hoody. Brilliant fucking plan.

249 RadicalModerate  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:53:24pm

Quick quiz: Which were there more of in 2011?

Live births in the United States?
Total number of reported gun sales?

According to government and industry data available, firearms sales outnumber the United States birth rate by a factor of more than 2.5:1.

Births: 3,953,593 - down 1% from 2010(PDF source)
Gun sales: 10,037,110 (estimated) - up 15%

Caveat: The actual total number of gun sales can only be extrapolated from the total of FBI background pre-sale checks made - which doesn't include private, or "gun show" sales - so their number is likely much, much higher. The reason for the lack of actual hard numbers is because the two industry groups with access to the figures (the NRA and National Shooting Sports Foundation) refuse to release the totals.

Caveat #2: Even though the number of gun sales are steadily rising, the number of total people who own firearms is actually falling - which indicates that most people aren't buying their first weapon for protection, but does indicate that those who are buying are effectively creating their own private arsenals.
[Link: www.vpc.org...] (PDF Source)

250 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:56:28pm

re: #249 RadicalModerate

According to government and industry data available, firearms sales outnumber the United States birth rate by a factor of more than 2.5:1.

America is making more guns than babies. Must be Hollywood's fault.

251 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:58:05pm

re: #234 William Barnett-Lewis

That kind of magic thinking, terribly reminiscent of fundamentalist religion, is quite popular with some these days.

Is there public and large scale pushback by gun owners against the radical agenda of the NRA? As far as public advocacy goes, we could end up playing a not-so-funny game of "sane gun owners in the mist".

If the NRA is the public voice of anti gun control, then pro gun control is naturally going to become more radical. This is actually beneficial for the NRA leadership, since they will be given examples of gun control proposals that would be widely unpopular for their membership, thereby justifying their existence.

(The comparison of the NRA leadership with Palestinian leadership on this point is grossly OT, but irresistible).

252 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 9:59:36pm

re: #248 Mich-again

While Wayne LaPierre was wowing the presser crowd with his wild and crazy guy show, Asa Hutchinson was delivering the same MOAR GUNZ! message at the NRA site.. And he says not to worry about the cost because it will be staffed by locals who volunteer to serve as armed guards.

Perfect.. George Zimmerman with a Glock roaming the school halls looking for any kids who violate the dress code and wear their hoody. Brilliant fucking plan.

Three strikes in action: hoodie, skittles and being black. The penalty is death.

253 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:06:58pm

So I made a comment on Steven Crowder's "unedited union protest" video yesterday, here is what I said...

ausador:
It must be nice to be able to earn a cushy living just by trolling people, it doesn't say much about your character though. I'll bet you laugh your ass off in private when you think about all the "average Joes" you have suckered into supporting you and what you stand for instead of their own best interests.

As P.T. Barnum famously said there is one born every minute, but you know that already don't you Steven?

I have received some interesting replies since...

Rich K 1 day ago

unions are turning michigan into a slum most third world countries would be ashamed of. what's really in the best interest of citizens in michigan?

bayushizero 1 day ago

Says the retard trolling the video.

Abe Reeder 1 day ago

I love it when people call asking them questions they can't answer "trolling" them. It gets even cuter when they then use that as an excuse for violence.

So remember kiddies, unions are violent socialist hotbeds of anti-American thought, if you want the true ideal American worker just look at the people working for Walmart. Sure they get no pension, in fact they get no benefits at all, not even medical insurance, but do they complain about it? Hell No! Not if they want a job anyway...

254 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:08:15pm

Here's my point, capacity is only part of the story. It alone doesn't really tell you how dangerous or criminally conducive a gun is. Here's the data sheet for the Ruger Single-Ten, it holds ten rounds of .22LR, you have to pull back the hammer manually before each trigger pull and you reload it one round at a time through a single loading gate. Here is a Ruger LCP, it takes six round magazines and can hold one extra in the chamber, it has a double action trigger pull and is very fast to reload. The LCP is also 5.84 inches shorter than the Single Ten and weighs four times less, making it far more concealable. The LCP's .380 bullet also carries about three times the muzzle energy of a .22 LR coming out of the Single-Ten's 5.5 inch barrel.

Which do you think police officers are interested in getting off the street?

255 freetoken  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:13:29pm

re: #238 EPR-radar

Roosevelt forcing gold out of circulation comes to mind.

FREE SILVER! Oh... wait...

256 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:14:04pm

re: #248 Mich-again

While Wayne LaPierre was wowing the presser crowd with his wild and crazy guy show, Asa Hutchinson was delivering the same MOAR GUNZ! message at the NRA site.. And he says not to worry about the cost because it will be staffed by locals who volunteer to serve as armed guards.

Perfect.. George Zimmerman with a Glock roaming the school halls looking for any kids who violate the dress code and wear their hoody. Brilliant fucking plan.

Who is going to insure the schools against the liability? I don't think they will find a company anywhere in America willing to do it even for an exorbitant premium. They will have to buy insurance from overseas where at least the issuer has a chance of ducking the judgement. Who is going to insure the volunteers? Or are they happily willing to give up every dime and everything they own now and for the entire future of their lives in the event of an accidental discharge on school grounds just to be seen as patriotic? (Idiotic?)

257 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:17:00pm

re: #256 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Who is going to insure the schools against the liability? I don't think they will find a company anywhere in America willing to do it even for an exorbitant premium. They will have to by insurance from overseas where at least the issuer has a chance of ducking the judgement. Who is going to insure the volunteers? Or are they happily willing to give up every dime and everything they own now and for the entire future of their lives in the event of an accidental discharge on school grounds just to be seen as patriotic? (Idiotic?)

I remain surprised that such a deeply unserious proposal ever saw the light of day, especially with a week to prepare. It's like they aren't even bothering to lie credibly anymore.

258 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:20:17pm

re: #257 EPR-radar

I remain surprised that such a deeply unserious proposal ever saw the light of day, especially with a week to prepare. It's like they aren't even bothering to lie credibly anymore.

It's pretty fucked up. Like I said if he'd come out talking about mandatory guns safes / locks and background checks it still wouldn't have led to much of a real world solution to the problem, but it at least would have looked like they were reacting with a modicum of common sense and seriousness.

259 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:22:12pm

re: #231 EPR-radar

Fair enough, I suppose, but the window of opportunity for something sane is closing fast. The NRA has put forth its batshit proposal to make the whole country like the Mos Eisley cantina from Star Wars.

This batshittery is leading to a few modest proposals in response.
If sensible gun owners want something useful to come out of all of this, they need to find a way to delegitimize the NRA fast. Personally, I don't see it happening.

It is not on me, or my sport shooting friends to de legitimize the NRA. They do that all by themselves. NRA=4.5 million members. Gun owners-Tens of millions. The NRA has maybe 10% of gun owners as members.

How legit is a 10%er representative?

Our Congress and Senator has the hard part. NRA might be more than 10% of their campaign money. All you need is all of us to convince them to refuse that money. And we better step up and replace that money. Not just gun owners. All of us.

260 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:24:52pm

re: #256 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Who is going to insure the schools against the liability? I don't think they will find a company anywhere in America willing to do it even for an exorbitant premium. They will have to by insurance from overseas where at least the issuer has a chance of ducking the judgement. Who is going to insure the volunteers? Or are they happily willing to give up every dime and everything they own now and for the entire future of their lives in the event of an accidental discharge on school grounds just to be seen as patriotic? (Idiotic?)

No underwriter in the entire world would be stupid enough to cover the liability risk associated with introducing members of the species nranus gunnutticus (the common American gun nut) into schools. And this is supposed to be the party that understands business? Please.

261 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:29:13pm

re: #251 EPR-radar

Oh wtf, I'll bite.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Understand that movie and you'll understand what I said. Maybe... I hope...

262 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:52:21pm

Ehh...Dana banned me from her twitter for pointing out she was helping to defraud money from her followers, eff her anyway.

If Breitbart.com is making her life miserable then that is perfectly OK with me. In this fight I come out ahead by more the worse they battle so all I can say is "go get em" to both sides. ;)

263 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:55:49pm

This is for Freetoken.

Youtube Video
264 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 10:58:50pm

re: #260 EPR-radar

No underwriter in the entire world would be stupid enough to cover the liability risk associated with introducing members of the species nranus gunnutticus (the common American gun nut) into schools. And this is supposed to be the party that understands business? Please.

The whole concept is nuts. LaPierre's LaPlan has more holes than a can at a gun range.

265 EPR-radar  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 11:00:54pm

re: #261 William Barnett-Lewis

Oh wtf, I'll bite.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Understand that movie and you'll understand what I said. Maybe... I hope...

I accept that the issues are complex, and a specific number for capacity is probably not a complete solution. I'll be the first to admit that I am clueless about guns, and for that reason I have made and will make no specific gun control proposals. If "magical thinking" refers to a belief that banning guns will make all bad things go away, then I do not believe in that.

However, it may be useful to be a little more explicit about my point of view, since it is probably not unique.

For many years, I have accepted as a given fact that there is a level of gun nuttery in the US that makes meaningful gun control (as exists and works well in most of the rest of the developed world) impossible. Over the years, I have frankly come to expect news of an egregious mass shooting in the US every 2 years or so.

A week ago, there was an especially heinous mass shooting, and today the response of the NRA is to propose wingnut fantasy nonsense using the murdered children as props. I do not have the words to adequately express my outrage at this.

Upthread, it was stated that it is not on sane gun owners to de-ligitimize the NRA. Life isn't that easy. For people that are clueless on the subject (like me), there are two organizations that have national visibility, the NRA and the GOA. Furthermore, there is no organization or PAC that supports gun ownership and opposes the NRA. The NRA is free to impose its purity test for 100% gun nuttery on virtually all GOP candidates and many Democrats as well. Thus the NRA/GOA is the only game in town for pro gun advocacy. Non-gun owners see this, and know the NRA purity test must often be passed by elected officials.

The fact that the NRA is insane means that pro gun advocacy is rightly tagged as insane. I respectfully suggest that sane gun owners need to organize an advocacy group (and prevent it from being taken over by wing nuts) that is pro-gun but counters the NRA everywhere and at all times. If this does not happen, then gun regulations in this country will be formed in bitter conflict between an insane NRA and the radicalized opposition they spawn.

266 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 11:06:27pm

re: #263 Gus

This is for Freetoken.

[Embedded content]

The jeep owner has obviously never heard of limited slip differentials...

267 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 11:09:23pm

More destruction of wetlands.

Youtube Video
268 Gus  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 11:19:13pm

re: #266 watching you tiny alien kittens are

The jeep owner has obviously never heard of limited slip differentials...

A well made amateur video of wanton destruction.

269 researchok  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 12:43:05am

Morning, all

270 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 12:43:07am
MP3 Audio
271 researchok  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 12:53:16am

You win- I'm in the mood.

I'll go out later and spend money.
/

Really nice.

Who was that? Great guitar.

272 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 12:58:05am

re: #237 William Barnett-Lewis

See my page if you actually want something that might pass. Otherwise carry on.

I added a comment to your page.

273 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 3:01:37am

re: #95 b_sharp

Irrelevant, Maddow isn't advocating for the industry paying her, in the face of massive opposition, logic and ethics.

In other words, her pay isn't her main motivation.

I must say that I very much doubt that. TV news commentary show hosts are pretty much always in it for the money, that and the name recognition. They may well have things they want to say and views they want to support, but they turn on those views if the cost of supporting them is losing the money.

274 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 3:13:28am

re: #239 stabby

Youtube just recommended some hour long derp "The Great Deception: Obama and the Coming War *PLEASE SHARE* " and gave as a reason that I liked Obama's ad about Big Bird. WTF.

I miss the days before schizophrenics learned to do video editing. DAMN YOU APPLE.

Yeah, how about that- Youtube cares more about copyright than hate speech.

We can argue all day if violent rhetoric and images cause violence, but it has already destroyed our political culture.

275 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:27:59am

Well, was suppossed to be on my way to Ocean City, but I'm not driving over the Bay Bridge in 50mph winds.
Hells no!
Image: baybridge.jpg

276 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:31:22am

re: #275 Varek Raith

Well, was suppossed to be on my way to Ocean City, but I'm not driving over the Bay Bridge in 50mph winds.
Hells no!
Image: baybridge.jpg

Aw, come on! The worst that could happen is you'd be swept out to sea!


/Must I?

277 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:41:23am

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

Aw, come on! The worst that could happen is you'd be swept out to sea!

/Must I?

Me and suspension bridges do not get along.
Absolutely hate driving over them.
In good weather no less.
Bad weather?
Forget it.

278 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:47:26am

re: #277 Varek Raith

Hey, did you want to read the short story I wrote? I think it might engage with your sense of humor.

Dark, option is open to you to, but not so much for the sense of humor but because it's about an infantryman and that might be up your alley.

279 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:49:55am

re: #278 Obdicut

Hey, did you want to read the short story I wrote? I think it might engage with your sense of humor.

Dark, option is open to you to, but not so much for the sense of humor but because it's about an infantryman and that might be up your alley.

Sure, sounds cool.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:51:10am

re: #278 Obdicut

Hey, did you want to read the short story I wrote? I think it might engage with your sense of humor.

Dark, option is open to you to, but not so much for the sense of humor but because it's about an infantryman and that might be up your alley.

I'd like to read it. Nic is blue. If you need feedback on any specific points just let me know in the email and I'll make sure to provide it, though it may take a day or two.

281 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:53:17am

Heh, I forgot I had a gmail account....
Derp.

282 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:01:05am

Only in New York City! Watch the moment two grown businessmen fight over a cab

Idiots making fools of themselves in front of the entire world is bad enough, but its even worse when the people who beclown themselves are supposed to be smart.

283 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:24:09am

re: #282 Dark_Falcon

Maybe Occupy can pose as Taxi drivers from now on.

284 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:25:35am

re: #283 dragonath

Maybe Occupy can pose as Taxi drivers from now on.

Too obvious.

285 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:38:49am

This is contemptible in the extreme.

[Link: crimeblog.dallasnews.com...]

Two Irving women are suing two state troopers and the head of their department in federal court, alleging they were subjected to an illegal and humiliating “roadside body cavity search” during a traffic stop.

Angel Dobbs, 38, and her niece, Ashley Dobbs, 24, said the search occurred on State Highway 161 in or near Irving on the night of July 13.

They claim that a female trooper, Kelley Helleson, used her fingers to search their anuses and vaginas — using the same latex glove — while on the side of the road in full view of passing vehicles.

Video is there. Fucking disgusting. This is basically raping these women in public. I am glad this is actually going to a grand jury as well, that's unusual. This is beyond the pale.

286 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:42:46am

Not something I would seriously propose, but something I plan to troll with: How about a ban on the depiction of gun violence in movies and video games?

287 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:57:09am

re: #286 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)

Not something I would seriously propose, but something I plan to troll with: How about a ban on the depiction of gun violence in movies and video games?

Two words: First Amendment.

288 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:59:02am

re: #286 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)

How about we try to create a culture that didn't think violence was so fucking entertaining? I think the games are a symptom and not the disease. I also wonder quite often these days whether these games(along with the whole violence-as-entertainment "thing" we seem to have going) were something the public really was clamoring for or if the geniuses in marketing decided that for us. Demand created, met with a seemingly endless supply. What would happen if our culture decided that violence wasn't acceptable anymore? What would these entertainment companies do? They'd have to think of something else, yes? Maybe the answer is to not be so cavalier about violence, even the"fake" kind. Play the games and watch the movies, it's your choice, but maybe try to think about the violence more often and not just consume it mindlessly.

I spent several years working with little kids as a preschool and substitute teacher. Kids are not born violent or hateful, that is learned. I cringe every time I hear people say some kids are just born bad,nothing we can do, ain't that a shame. A baby is "bad"? Really? Some of the nicest young people I know are the ones that are written off because they are perceived to be broken somehow. They fit the profile of "the bad guy" on the surface, but spend a bit of time talking to them and you find kids who have been through hell, but are not capable of hurting a soul. They process their emotions through music, art, writing and refuse to be pulled into revenge or other less constructive means.

I don't know all the answers to this, and change is slow to come, but maybe, just maybe turning our backs on some of this violence we willingly consume is a start.

289 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:05:54am

re: #288 A Mom Anon

Different cultural priorities: Some other nations more often use sex as the 'low-class draw', but the US is far more conservative socially and America's different experience of the World Wars lead us to be far less likely to see violence as futile.

290 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:13:32am

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

I'll give you some of that DF, and there are some stories that have a violent turn to them (wars, history, personal traumas, etc) and should be told. But s let's face it, is the Saw franchise of movies(as one example) truly something we need to consume without a second thought?

I'd like to live in a society that didn't value guns and violence more than it's children. Just because the stuff is out there to consume doesn't mean we have to. And perhaps it's close to the time where we need to re-evaluate what it means to be a man, what's "manly", what being tough REALLY means. If we're smart enough to build a first world country full of advances, we're smart enough to figure out better ways to entertain ourselves and occupy our time.

291 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:15:30am

Never could find any interest in the SAW franchise. Or really any of those kinds of movies. Gore and violence for its own sake seems just short of watching a snuff film.

292 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:17:55am

re: #290 A Mom Anon

I'll give you some of that DF, and there are some stories that have a violent turn to them (wars, history, personal traumas, etc) and should be told. But s let's face it, is the Saw franchise of movies(as one example) truly something we need to consume without a second thought?

I'd like to live in a society that didn't value guns and violence more than it's children. Just because the stuff is out there to consume doesn't mean we have to. And perhaps it's close to the time where we need to re-evaluate what it means to be a man, what's "manly", what being tough REALLY means. If we're smart enough to build a first world country full of advances, we're smart enough to figure out better ways to entertain ourselves and occupy our time.

That reevaluation literally can't happen right now, frankly because of the Culture Wars. of which the reaction to the Newtown killings (though not the killings themselves) form yet another engagement. America as a whole cannot have such a discussion because America can't collectively agree on the first principals needed for such a discussion. Nor is such agreement likely anytime soon, given the level of distrust that underlines thedifferences.

293 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:28:35am

I've kind of fell out of video gaming because so much of it is a variation of shoot-this/kill-that. The medium itself has a lot of potential, but it's amazingly shallow.

If we're willing to agree that (demonstratively false) Fox News rhetoric leads to violence, I don't know why there's this reflexive defensiveness that claims simulated images of violence don't matter.

Honestly, I don't even think Japan is a very good counter example because they have a sky-high suicide rate.

294 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:28:50am

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

I think this whole conversation would be alot easier if the gun manufacturers didn't have a say. Their sole purpose is to sell more guns, they don't care who dies. They are at the heart of WHY this discussion is so difficult.

I am not anti gun, but I am pro regulation. If we can register and insure every car, truck, plane, train and boat in this country then we can register, regulate and legislate gun ownership.

295 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:33:20am

re: #293 dragonath

I've kind of fell out of video gaming because so much of it is a variation of shoot-this/kill-that. The medium itself has a lot of potential, but it's amazingly shallow.

If we're willing to agree that (demonstratively false) Fox News rhetoric leads to violence, I don't know why there's this reflexive defensiveness that claims simulated images of violence don't matter.

Honestly, I don't even think Japan is a very good counter example because they have a sky-high suicide rate.

Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US for cultural reasons. Suicide is generally considered bad and wrong in the US (though some favor an exception for those with terminal medical conditions, that is a fairly limited exception). In Japan, by contrast, there are a number of cases where suicide is considered to be justifiable, even the right action. Thus direct comparison is difficult.

296 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:36:23am

Poorly written post withdrawn.

297 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:38:01am

From what I'm reading, the cult of the Gun has won again.

The vast majority of stories are now focusing on feasibility of proposals of how to make schools into fortresses with armed guards. Asking such cutting questions as 'should our kids have bulletproof backpacks?' and 'do less guns equal more crime?' Exactly one week after the sacrifice of twenty first graders to American gun madness, they are already forgotten, meekly swallowed as acceptable losses so a few Americans can cuddle more guns. Exactly one week after the weapons of a responsible, law-abiding gun owner destroyed the lives of twenty-six families, the high priest of the cult of the Gun stood up and baldly told you to your faces that only more gunfights, gun battles and shootings were acceptable, and America shrugged and said, okay. The small coffins are not yet all buried, and already the arguments focus on mental health, and armed guards, and the specifics of the .260 Ruger Deathblossom vs the Tigermatic submachinegun with optional wooden stock, on anything except the actual problem.

Clearly, we should send the parents of these dead children a few guns for Christmas. I'll leave the specifics of which guns up to the experts. After all, they probably feel sad and scared. And they may have more kids to protect. The card should say, 'Sorry for your loss. We hope that this gift of something more valuable than your children will brighten your Christmas, and we especially hope that you and your kids will use it.'

298 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:38:20am

re: #286 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)

Not something I would seriously propose, but something I plan to troll with: How about a ban on the depiction of gun violence in movies and video games?

Trolling sucks and you suck if you troll.

299 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:39:26am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

Per Citizens United, a corporation has the same free speech rights as you or I. And frankly, if its the profitability of that corporation on the line, it should have its say.

Your second statement makes no sense. Why does profitability equal a right to speech for the corporation?

And can you explain why a corporation should have rights that are similar to those of an individual? Given that individuals and corporations are very different, shouldn't they have very different rights?

300 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:41:37am

re: #293 dragonath

I've kind of fell out of video gaming because so much of it is a variation of shoot-this/kill-that. The medium itself has a lot of potential, but it's amazingly shallow.

If we're willing to agree that (demonstratively false) Fox News rhetoric leads to violence, I don't know why there's this reflexive defensiveness that claims simulated images of violence don't matter.

Honestly, I don't even think Japan is a very good counter example because they have a sky-high suicide rate.

It's not reflexive defensiveness.
It's just the facts. Study after study has shown no correlation between violent media and crime.

301 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:42:51am

re: #299 Obdicut

I'd also add that that corporation is NOT more valuable or important than my kids, my grandkids or anyone else's family. Gun makers can still turn a profit while being regulated and having to conform to strict laws. And gun shows? Those need to go the way of the dodo bird, along with internet sales of guns and ammo. You want your guns? Then you get off your behind and go to a licensed and regulated dealer in a brick and mortar store.

302 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:44:31am

re: #297 Renaissance_Man

It's not going to be just won and lost in who can make the national dialog swing one way or another in a given moment. This incident has certainly made me far more aware of gun issues than I was before. Don't think that just because the media stream can be hijacked for awhile that that overrides everything. Do work on a local level and write and petition your congresspeople, support politicians who are for sane and reasonable gun laws, etc.

The media doesn't run the nation.

303 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:48:29am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

No it should not have it's say. What it should be doing, if it's an industry with integrity, is to be there advocating for better, higher standards. Citizens United is an abomination. And again, there is NOTHING stopping this industry from employing higher standards for itself. It's harder to buy and license a car than it is to buy a gun. That's bullshit and the gun manufacturers shouldn't be the ones making the rules when they've proven over and over again they could give fuck all about the people their products kill EVERY FREAKING DAY.

304 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:56:10am

re: #300 Varek Raith

It's not reflexive defensiveness.
It's just the facts. Study after study has shown no correlation between violent media and crime.

US culture is inundated with violent media and has the highest murder rate in the developed world. Media changes values and perceptions. I don't see how that is a debatable point.

Let's say it makes no difference at all- what are you gaining from it?

305 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:00:12am

re: #302 Obdicut

The media doesn't run the nation.

Actually, everything I've seen while I've lived in the US tells me that it does.

306 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:05:05am

re: #305 Renaissance_Man

Actually, everything I've seen while I've lived in the US tells me that it does.

Alright, well just give up then, or go and start a media company I guess. I'm going to stick with political organizing, get out the vote drives, and other such silliness.

307 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:06:51am

re: #304 dragonath

US culture is inundated with violent media and has the highest murder rate in the developed world. Media changes values and perceptions. I don't see how that is a debatable point.

Let's say it makes no difference at all- what are you gaining from it?

It really doesn't matter what someone is gaining from it. If it makes no difference at all, it shouldn't get restricted. But basically, people have fun playing games.

And there really have been zero studies showing any causative link between violent representation and violent action. Dehumanizing propaganda, however, has been shown to do that-- depictions of groups in a caricatured way-- and we're not going to be able to ban that, either.

309 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:10:21am

;)
Look, South Korea has turned gaming into a national past time.
Why aren't they violent too?
Why, could it be the stupidly easy access to guns?
Nah, must be video games.
And music.
Comics too!

310 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:11:51am

re: #309 Varek Raith

;)

Seems like the more violent video games that are released, the less crime we have.

Also, the more iphones that are sold, the less crime.

Also, more babies named Aisha, less crime.

Correlation city, man!

311 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:12:45am

re: #308 Varek Raith

This post was facetious, btw.

312 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:13:09am

re: #310 Obdicut

Seems like the more violent video games that are released, the less crime we have.

Also, the more iphones that are sold, the less crime.

Also, more babies named Aisha, less crime.

Correlation city, man!

Pirates and AGW, man!

313 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:13:59am

Heh, spell check laughed at my attempt to spell 'facetious'.

314 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:14:20am

Jiminy Christmas- where did I say anything about censoring anything? It's just kind of dissonant to see people, uh, clinging to their virtual guns, that's all.

315 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:15:01am

re: #314 dragonath

Jiminy Christmas- where did I say anything about censoring anything? It's just kind of dissonant to see people, uh, clinging to their virtual guns, that's all.

Well, stop with the false premises about games and I'll behave.
;)

316 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:16:14am

16 years. No massacres.

317 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:16:15am

re: #314 dragonath

Jiminy Christmas- where did I say anything about censoring anything? It's just kind of dissonant to see people, uh, clinging to their virtual guns, that's all.

Why is it dissonant? Virtual guns don't kill people. They're not at all dangerous.

318 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:16:49am

I'm just tired of seeing the scapegoating is all.
Music and Doom were blamed for Columbine.

319 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:18:46am

And we are not unique in the world for violent media.
These other countries don't have this problem.

320 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:19:22am

re: #318 Varek Raith

I'm just tired of seeing the scapegoating is all.
Music and Doom were blamed for Columbine.

It's not just tiresome, it's dangerous distraction from actual problems.

There's certainly a case to be made that violent video games are in some way symptomatic of an acceptance of violent gun culture. However, these games are equally as popular in countries that don't have such a gun culture. Most people who play the games don't own guns. Etc.

Games aren't dangerous. Nor are violent movies, nor are books with violence in them. Books like the Turner Diaries are very arguably dangerous-- not because of the violence, but the ideology-- but banning them would require very heavy restrictions on free speech that would have a lot of unwelcome consequences.

321 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:19:59am

re: #318 Varek Raith

I'm just tired of seeing the scapegoating is all.
Music and Doom were blamed for Columbine.

Scapegoating is to politics what oboes are to an orchestra: A lesser-thought-about, but still integral item.

322 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:21:17am

Not sure what I'm going to do today now that I'm not going to the family Christmas party...
Hmm....
Movie?
Yeah, maybe see The Hobbit.

323 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:23:40am

Scapegoating. Huh.

It's just unseemly. Why defend such crappy culture?

324 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:25:36am

re: #323 dragonath

Scapegoating. Huh.

It's just unseemly. Why defend such crappy culture?

I don't consider it crappy. Why do you?

Real kids are out there getting killed by real guns. Video game violence doesn't harm anyone. Why the fuck do you want to talk about something that doesn't hurt anyone? Just because you find it 'unseemly'? For fuck's sake.

325 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:26:11am

re: #323 dragonath

Do you like any books that have violence in them?

326 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:30:34am

Make believe shooting in a video game - bad, violent.

Real guns - good, peaceful.

327 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:35:05am

re: #326 Kronocide

Make believe shooting in a video game - bad, violent.

Real guns - good, peaceful.

Objecting to police brutality.. bad, unpatriotic
Arming yourself to wage war against the same cops .. good, very patriotic

328 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:35:06am

re: #324 Obdicut

Outlets for aggression are a necessity IMO. Video games fill that in some ways. So do some sports, hardcore music scenes of various kinds, etc. But, there is also a place for balance here and maybe we'll eventually get to a place where these things are far less popular than they are now. And maybe the hyper-violent stuff, if it was shunned by most people would fade away. I'd love to see more alternatives to the violence, that engage the brain and still remain fun/entertaining. I think it's possible to come up with solutions without banning various media and maybe make that sort of stuff far less popular.

I have an 18 yr old that LOVES metal music of every sort. That includes death metal and stuff like grindcore and some other crazy shit. It's his only outlet for aggression. Every friday he goes to an all metal garage band type of club(which has a group of awesome guys doing security and running the place)where he thrashes and moshes his little face off. The whole club is full of kids that never fit in anywhere else and they are mostly a really great group of young people who are not violent beyond their musical taste. I would never dream of banning what they love, it would do more harm than good.

329 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:35:08am

re: #316 Renaissance_Man

16 years. No massacres.

Yep.

Starting with a much smaller population.
And only 3 million guns.
And a mandatory buyback.
And no paranoia that black folks are going to riot and steal everything once they were disarmed.
And more than a few of their GUNZ people moved to the US after their regulations were put in place.

I could continue but the reality remains that Australia is a very different place from the US and what worked there for them will not work here except, perhaps in the aftermath of another civil war.

330 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:35:26am

The NRA's suggestions are so laughable that I can certainly see why they took no questions, because reporters would have picked them apart before the press conference had concluded.

Guards in schools? When you have budgets so tight that teachers are buying their own supplies, who's paying for that? How many guards? Who will they answer to? Who's in charge of making sure we're not hiring a bunch of rent-a-cops?

List of the mentally ill? Grand, who's compiling it? The same people who so far can't get their asses in gear to put this stuff into the NICBCS system? Half the state only have a small fraction of their medical records loaded into that system, but we want now to create a separate system to handle the mentally ill for a national database? To what end?

And the biggest question: Where does the NRA get off screaming that the country needs to lay off them?

331 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:38:38am

re: #329 William Barnett-Lewis

Yep.

Starting with a much smaller population.
And only 3 million guns.
And a mandatory buyback.
And no paranoia that black folks are going to riot and steal everything once they were disarmed.
And more than a few of their GUNZ people moved to the US after their regulations were put in place.

I could continue but the reality remains that Australia is a very different place from the US and what worked there for them will not work here except, perhaps in the aftermath of another civil war.

Points well made.

332 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:41:44am

re: #325 Obdicut

No, not especially, and why should that have to do with anything?

I never said guns were wonderful in real life either. I've played plenty of FPS games, and yet I'm not especially thrilled about Call of Duty 1,000,001.

333 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:42:28am

re: #329 William Barnett-Lewis

And more than a few of their GUNZ people moved to the US after their regulations were put in place.

Fact check aisle 329.

334 makeitstop  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:42:35am

'Morning, Lizards.

The NYC tabloid headlines today are pretty brutal. Even Uncle Rupert's paper.

Gotta hope this reaction is the rule rather than the exception.

335 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:43:24am

re: #328 A Mom Anon

Hyper-violent stuff is already shunned by most people. Most gamers don't play Postal 2, because it's gross. Most of the games held out to be hyperviolent, like Counterstrike, are very very clearly simulations and not reality. There is nothing about playing Counterstrike that'd make you more willing to shoot an actual person.

I completely agree that it'd be great if we could have even more games where killing isn't the main mechanism of interaction with the world, but I do think this is tied to what you said about it being an outlet. A lot of people play these games precisely for a different experience than they get in real life. Playing Madden 2012 doesn't make someone more likely to play football.

336 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:44:43am

re: #334 makeitstop

'Morning, Lizards.

The NYC tabloid headlines today are pretty brutal. Even Uncle Rupert's paper.

Gotta hope this reaction is the rule rather than the exception.

I'm curious to see what the Sunday funnies, aka the Beltway masturbation sessions, will bring tomorrow. LaPierre himself will be meeting with Dancin' Dave, so I guess we'll get to see whether or not Dave can actually grow some teeth. My guess is probably not.

337 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:45:11am

parenting
n.
The rearing of a child or children, especially the care, love, and guidance given by a parent.

338 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:47:27am

re: #333 Kronocide

Fact check aisle 329.

Perhaps I should have said some? I know two who moved here due to the gun laws.

339 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:48:00am

Image: 800px-GBUColtNavyCartridge-1.jpg

341 A Mom Anon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:53:03am

I have to run, but I'm glad to see this conversation happening. I'm still thinking about this and trying to figure out what points I'm willing to concede and what I can't/won't. I'm a mom and a grandma who lives next door to a rather large extended family that's armed to the teeth. I have had guns in my home in the past. It's a complex issue, but even as we all don't agree, the conversation needs to keep going. Somewhere in all of this lies answers to what will and won't work, but I think it's safe to guess that an insanely easy access to way too much firepower is probably at the heart of the matter.

342 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:53:03am

re: #337 Gus

parenting
n.
The rearing of a child or children, especially the care, love, and guidance given by a parent.

The house is filling with beneficiaries for the holidays. Be back after the Airing of Grievances.

In the meantime, here's a bit of Irish-American self deprecation:

Youtube Video
343 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:54:19am

re: #342 Decatur Deb

The house is filling with beneficiaries for the holidays. Be back after the Airing of Grievances.

In the meantime, here's a bit of Irish-American self deprecation:

[Embedded content]

Yeah, whodathunkit too. "Son, what the hell are you watching?" //

344 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:54:23am

re: #338 William Barnett-Lewis

Perhaps I should have said some? I know two who moved here due to the gun laws.

When you say that gun owners moved to the US after restrictive gun laws were put in place, are you citing that as a factor in there being reduced gun deaths and zero massacres in Oz? Cause it sounds like you are.

345 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:54:39am

Or is that not allowed anymore either? //

346 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:59:23am

I guess the American response to your kid watching too many violent movies on their lap top is to shoot the lap top in front of your iPhone and upload the video to YouTube. //

347 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:02:05am
348 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:02:23am

re: #344 Renaissance_Man

When you say that gun owners moved to the US after restrictive gun laws were put in place, are you citing that as a factor in there being reduced gun deaths and zero massacres in Oz? Cause it sounds like you are.

Damn Aussies!

349 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:04:28am

re: #347 Gus

I friggin' hate that dude, but it's kind of funny how good he is pissing off absolutely fucking everyone. He tries hard to be the biggest douche.

350 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:05:01am

re: #347 Gus

[Embedded content]

I must have missed the part in the Constitution where it's prohibited to criticize guns. Oh, there it is, right below the part where if you say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" you're having a war on Christmas.

351 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:05:38am

re: #350 HappyWarrior

I must have missed the part in the Constitution where it's prohibited to criticize guns. Oh, there it is, right below the part where if you say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" you're having a war on Christmas.

Constitutionalists.

352 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:08:20am

re: #349 Obdicut

I friggin' hate that dude, but it's kind of funny how good he is pissing off absolutely fucking everyone. He tries hard to be the biggest douche.

Hopefully it gets enough signatures so that the White House has to respond. With a big laugh.

353 dragonath  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:09:44am

re: #352 Gus

Piers pressure?

354 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:10:51am

re: #353 dragonath

Piers pressure?

*rimshot*

355 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:11:16am

re: #347 Gus

[Embedded content]

The siren is on but the Clue Meter is still reading Zero.

356 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:12:02am

re: #347 Gus

[Embedded content]

Pussies. That petition is being signed by a bunch of total pussies.

357 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:12:37am

re: #356 Four More Tears

Pussies. That petition is being signed by a bunch of total pussies.

That man criticized guns, deport him! *cries*

358 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:12:56am

re: #356 Four More Tears

Pussies. That petition is being signed by a bunch of total pussies.

They need a heaping helping of weak sauce.

359 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:13:40am

re: #344 Renaissance_Man

When you say that gun owners moved to the US after restrictive gun laws were put in place, are you citing that as a factor in there being reduced gun deaths and zero massacres in Oz? Cause it sounds like you are.

What I think he means is that some of those who found the new laws in Australia unacceptable had someplace else to go which had laws more to their liking.

360 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:14:31am

Maddow: LaPierre press conference was epic ‘Rick-rolling’ of the country

“The NRA ‘Rick-rolled’ the whole country,” she said. “They promised us something that sounded new, something that sounded meaningful, maybe something this time that would be a change, that would be worth tuning in for, something you hadn’t heard before from this very important group, right?”

Wrong. It’s the same old thing. And now it’s going to be stuck in our heads forever.

361 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:17:15am

re: #360 Kragar

Maddow: LaPierre press conference was epic ‘Rick-rolling’ of the country

From what I've read of it. It seems like Mr. LaPierre stepped into a time machine and got the NRA's playbook from the 1990's. I mean it was just absurd how he blamed movies and video games that were prevalent in the 1990's and his comment about music videos was weird too when he said that they teach kids that life has no meaning anymore. Uh okay. There's a very good reason why the NRA is clueless and LaPierre helped support that motion.

362 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:20:11am

Surprise!

Drudge continues his support of 9/11 Truthers of which this guy is one. He also wrote some things for Counterpunch and "concurs with Ward Churchill." Congratulations conservatives! Drudge speaks for you. Hahahahahaha!

363 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:20:54am

re: #362 Gus

Surprise!

[Embedded content]

Drudge continues his support of 9/11 Truthers of which this guy is one. He also wrote some things for Counterpunch and "concurs with Ward Churchill." Congratulations conservatives! Drudge speaks for you. Hahahahahaha!

Yep, he's all yours. Fedora and all.

364 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:23:41am

For those who are interested PBS is re-running After Newtown this afternoon on most PBS stations. [Link: www.pbs.org...]

365 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:23:51am

We should melt the guns down as part of the "Build the Death Star" Project.

Good afternoon Lizards. Drive up to NY state delayed 24 hours due to weather in that area. Don't want to deal with wind, blowing snow, etc. and things should be better tomorrow.

366 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:26:15am

re: #365 Feline Fearless Leader

We should melt the guns down as part of the "Build the Death Star" Project.

Good afternoon Lizards. Drive up to NY state delayed 24 hours due to weather in that area. Don't want to deal with wind, blowing snow, etc. and things should be better tomorrow.

Only Varek supports THAT project. BBL

367 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:26:30am

re: #363 HappyWarrior

Yep, he's all yours. Fedora and all.

Kurt Nimmo says that there is no problem with violent white supremacists in the military.

368 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:27:40am

re: #367 Gus

Kurt Nimmo says that there is no problem with violent white supremacists in the military.

Yeah yikes.

369 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:28:18am

re: #367 Gus

oy

370 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:29:00am

re: #368 HappyWarrior

Yeah yikes.

The usual. Building 7, The Juice!, Zionism, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs, etc.

371 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:29:08am

re: #360 Kragar

Maddow: LaPierre press conference was epic ‘Rick-rolling’ of the country

Think that's what got me more than anything about the speech, that it's basically everything we heard in the immediate aftermath of Columbine: "Too much violence, video games/movies/music to blame, mentally ill are a problem, etc, etc."

A couple wingnut who were less than pleased with my response to LaPierre's speech asked me what I "wanted" from the NRA, what I would have accepted. And having thought about it, I can say what I wanted from them: Something new, something different. Just the simple acknowledgment that there are too many guns in this country. But no, that would have threatened their dues and their relationship with gun manufacturers, so onward with the excuse-making.

372 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:31:28am

re: #369 PhillyPretzel

oy

Radical Right Theories Flourish in Aftermath of Sikh Killings

...Infowars, the conspiracist website maintained by Alex Jones, seems to have led the charge. In an article published earlier this week after neo-Nazi Wade Michael Page killed six people in Oak Creek, Wis., writer Kurt Nimmo accused the federal government – and, ludicrously, the Southern Poverty Law Center – of somehow being tied to the shootings. The proof? Only dubious claims pulled from Page’s life story. The alleged skinhead gunman was in a psychological operations unit in the Army during the 1990s...

374 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:36:32am
Public relations experts who have experience working with the gun industry expressed horror on Friday afternoon at the National Rifle Association's response to the Newtown, Conn., shootings.

The group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, struck a scolding tone on Friday, blaming the video game industry and media for exposing youth to a culture of violence, and calling for armed police or security guards in schools: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," LaPierre said.

Public relations professionals reached by The Huffington Post said the timing of his message, which broke a week of silence in the wake of the tragic murder of 26 children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School, could be an irredeemable mistake for the group.

“It was worse than if the NRA had not spoken at all,” said Gene Grabowski, executive vice president of Levick Strategic Communications, a Washington, D.C.-based issues management firm that has worked with firearms manufacturers. "The same message about the culture in another time and place might have made sense, but in context of tragedy, it seemed mean-spirited, cold and misguided."

376 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:40:16am

Sen. Jay Rockefeller: Study video-game violence

Youtube Video
377 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:41:23am

re: #374 goddamnedfrank

“It was worse than if the NRA had not spoken at all,” said Gene Grabowski, executive vice president of Levick Strategic Communications, a Washington, D.C.-based issues management firm that has worked with firearms manufacturers.

Is that Gene "Guns" Grabowski?

/

379 stabby  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:44:56am

Image: i-dXBjSvG-X3.jpg

"It's a very odd sort of patriot that would destroy the 1st amendment to protect the 2nd"

380 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:47:27am

re: #376 Kragar

Sen. Jay Rockefeller: Study video-game violence

[Embedded content]

Good grief. The studies have been done.
Lots of them.
They found no correlation.
Can we stop dancing around the elephant in the room known as guns?

381 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:48:59am

This is stupid.
They want more regulations on fucking video games than they do guns.
Fucking amazing.

382 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:50:24am

re: #380 Varek Raith

Good grief. The studies have been done.
Lots of them.
They found no correlation.
Can we stop dancing around the elephant in the room known as guns?

February 11, 2009, 7:14 PM
Senator Clinton On Violent Games

Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) was kind enough to give GameCore some of her time for a Q&A session regarding the current political gaming-climate and, of course, Grand Theft Auto.

How much responsibility should parents have to ensure that their children don't play games that are clearly labeled "Mature"? Does most of the blame lie with parents or with the video game companies?

Parents obviously play a critical role in protecting their children from influences that go against the values they hold dear, but they often feel like they are fighting an uphill battle against the violent and sexually explicit messages that are overwhelming in our culture.

It's not a question of who to blame -- it's a question of are there simple steps we can take to support parents in doing the hardest work there is? We need to do better. We need to do everything we can to make sure parents have a line of defense against violent and sexually explicit video games and other content that is being peddled to our children. That's why the legislation I will be introducing will put real teeth into video game ratings by instituting a financial penalty for retailers that fail to enforce the rules.

Are you aware of any studies that directly link video games with an increase in juvenile crime rates?

We know that violent video games have an impact on children. Just recently there was cutting edge research conducted at Indiana University School of Medicine, which concluded that adolescents with more exposure to violent media were less able to control and to direct their thoughts and behavior, to stay focused on a task, to plan, to screen out distractions, and to use experience to guide inhibitions.

Obviously, juvenile crime rates are influenced by a tremendous number of factors, including the economy, programs and interventions aimed at reducing crime, the presence of law enforcement, and more. What the research tells us is that for individual kids, violent media is harmful.

Continues.

383 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:53:04am

Thank goodness a warring culture doesn't promote violence. Or does it? Do we need a study on how a warring and militarist culture promotes violence?

//

384 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:53:28am

For instance, "war porn."

385 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:55:43am

*Gets gun, shoots First Amendment, blames Canada*

386 wilburs  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:56:05am

Rupert's New York Post nails it

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

387 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:58:19am

re: #347 Gus

WHITE HOUSE PETITION CALLS FOR DEPORTATION OF PIERS MORGAN AFTER GUN RANT...

First things first. Can't we allow the South to secede first? Those petitions are still waiting for a response.

388 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:59:41am
389 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:00:31am

re: #388 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yep, I flew them with Microsoft's Flight Simulator X.

390 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:03:21am
Why don't you think the kind of upheaval over video games isn't taking place in other countries where the same games are played?

I haven't followed the reaction to these games in other countries. I just know that in New York I hear from parents all the time who are struggling to protect their kids from influences and messages they think are harmful and that don't represent their values.

So it's only a problem in America!
Exceptionalism!

391 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:05:11am

re: #388 Gus

[Embedded content]

Please tell me this woman doesn't have access to firearms.

392 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:05:15am

re: #390 Varek Raith

So it's only a problem in America!
Exceptionalism!

"Struggling to protect their kids from influences and messages they think are harmful."

393 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:11:33am

Wow.

I Was Adam Lanza
by David Frum

Like the author of that piece, Liza Long, my mother had no idea what to do about my sudden transformation (in my case, around 16) into a borderline homicidal maniac. Like her son, I used knives to try and make my threats of violence seem more real. Like her son, I would leap out of our car in the middle of the road just to get away from my mother, over the most trivial of offenses. Like her son, I screamed obscenities at my mother shortly after moments of relative peace. And worse than this poor woman's son, whose mindset toward his peers we can only guess, I will admit that I fantasized multiple times about taking ordnance to my classmates.

394 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:12:17am

re: #393 Four More Tears

Brave dude.

395 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:13:05am

re: #265 EPR-radar

Upthread, it was stated that it is not on sane gun owners to de-ligitimize the NRA. Life isn't that easy. For people that are clueless on the subject (like me), there are two organizations that have national visibility, the NRA and the GOA. Furthermore, there is no organization or PAC that supports gun ownership and opposes the NRA. The NRA is free to impose its purity test for 100% gun nuttery on virtually all GOP candidates and many Democrats as well. Thus the NRA/GOA is the only game in town for pro gun advocacy. Non-gun owners see this, and know the NRA purity test must often be passed by elected officials.

I went to bed too soon, missed that considered response. The reason the NRA has that high profile despite not representing about 90% of gun owners is the influence in the legislatures across the country and of course in DC. Even the 10% of gun owners that are members are divided by about half. So the NRA was really only speaking for a tiny fraction of gun owners.

We can only quit the NRA once.

The 90% of gun owners making calls and sending some campaign money is not enough. The vast majority of non gun owners need to tell their reps to not listen to the NRA. The gun owners and those people could easily overcome the money advantage the NRA has displayed so far, if a coherent effort was made. Voices dollars and votes.

Does PETA well represent animal lovers and pet owners? Shall we judge the desires of the overall African American community by the stated rhetoric of the nation of Islam?

Judging a group by its high profile fringe is how groups are denigrated without thinking. Without wisdom. With prejudice. Without an open mind.

We gun owners and non gun owners have work to do. I'm in with you. Where would you like to start?

396 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:13:19am

re: #394 Obdicut

Brave dude.

Very. My hat's off to Mr. Frum.

397 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:16:00am

re: #393 Four More Tears

Wow.

I Was Adam Lanza
by David Frum

Wow. I imagine that was difficult for Frum to write. Props to him. Reliving the past can be tough I know.

398 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:18:34am

But LaPierre's speech left out a key detail: His own organization has a video game, too. It's called NRA Gun Club, it was released in 2006 for PlayStation 2, and according to the top-ranked review on Amazon, it "could very well be the single worst game in the history of games." The game, which was rated "E" for kids 10 and older, featured a handgun on the cover with four bullets and consisted entirely of various target-shooting exercises. Gamers can shoot inanimate objects like watermelons, bottles, and clay pigeons, using one of over 100 different kinds of brand-name, licensed firearms like Beretta.

I think MJ is reading this wrong. The NRA's solution to video game violence is obviously to endorse games that no one would want to play. Problem solved.

399 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:22:51am

re: #398 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

I think MJ is reading this wrong. The NRA's solution to video game violence is obviously to endorse games that no one would want to play. Problem solved.

Yeah, "Man this game is so boring, I think I want to go to my algebra homework." The writers of Left Behind had a few video games too. I know they're different than the NRA but still.

400 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:23:47am

re: #397 HappyWarrior

Wow. I imagine that was difficult for Frum to write. Props to him. Reliving the past can be tough I know.

That's wasn't Frum's story, it was someone who wrote to him:

What goes through the mind of a school shooter? In the past days, we've all asked that question. The following is one attempt at answer. It was sent me by a young person living in an East Coast metropolitan area. I am satisfied that the autobiographical facts described are true to the teller's memory and experience. The story is troubling, but important to consider. For reader ease, I have broken the essay into three parts. I am glad to report that the author is now personally stable, a college graduate, and gainfully employed.

401 Dr. Matt  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:23:47am
Dana Loesch Sues #Breitbart.com

Schadenfreude

402 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:24:28am

re: #400 TedStriker

Doh.

403 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:24:47am

re: #400 TedStriker

That's wasn't Frum's story, it was someone who wrote to him:

Oh my bad. Still though. Good on Mr. Frum and the writer.

404 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:27:05am

Santa puts the Ho in Ho Ho Ho on Fox

405 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:27:06am

I feel so bad for the kid outed in the "I am Ryan Lanza's mother" piece. I mean damn he's going to have the stigma of having all his dirty laundry put out there for the whole world to see. I would have a tough time forgiving my mother if she did that to me.

406 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:29:49am

re: #399 HappyWarrior

Yeah, "Man this game is so boring, I think I want to go to my algebra homework." The writers of Left Behind had a few video games too. I know they're different than the NRA but still.

Notice that LaPierre (and his minions) tend to leave out military-type games such as the Battlefield, Call of Duty, and Medal of Honor series in their arguments against "violent" games, which is especially germane, since Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 is out right now and is very popular (I'm not gonna lie, I play it on the PC).

"Violent" video games are apparently only bad if they don't simulate, glorify, or fetishize the (US) military or military equipment, right, Mr. LaPierre?

407 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:31:54am

re: #393 Four More Tears

Wow.

I Was Adam Lanza
by David Frum

Just finished reading that. He is speaking truth to chaos.

408 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:32:02am

Apparently finding this out now, but a wingnut tells me when asked why the NRA didn't take questions that they're going to open themselves up to questions after the holidays. So they give what amounts to a campaign commercial yesterday, they're on a publicity blitz including showing up on the Sunday shows, after which they'll take a few questions.

Mighty white of them. ///

409 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:33:37am

re: #407 Political Atheist

Just finished reading that. He is speaking truth to chaos.

I totally missed the part where he says that he's reprinting a letter from someone one else.

410 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:36:14am

re: #406 TedStriker

Notice that LaPierre (and his minions) tend to leave out military-type games such as the Battlefield, Call of Duty, and Medal of Honor series in their arguments against "violent" games, which is especially germane, since Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 is out right now and is very popular (I'm not gonna lie, I play it on the PC).

"Violent" video games are apparently only bad if they don't simulate, glorify, or fetishize the (US) military or military equipment, right, Mr. LaPierre?

You know I never thought about it like that but this is a really good point. He specifically named Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto which are the two series that I see blamed the most. There was another one he named that was totally obscure. Think I saw someone here point out that it was a flash game no less.

411 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:38:36am

re: #410 HappyWarrior

You know I never thought about it like that but this is a really good point. He specifically named Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto which are the two series that I see blamed the most. There was another one he named that was totally obscure. Think I saw someone here point out that it was a flash game no less.

Words with Friends is destroying our moral fabric.

412 HappyWarrior  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:40:17am

re: #411 Four More Tears

Words with Friends is destroying our moral fabric.

Scrriblenauts is teaching our children to create dancing purple robots!

414 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:42:49am

re: #412 HappyWarrior

Scrriblenauts is teaching our children to create dancing purple robots!

Why do those birds have to be so angry??

415 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:43:35am

Guess it was the video games... no, wait!

416 EmmaAnne  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:43:55am

re: #329 William Barnett-Lewis

Yep.

Starting with a much smaller population.
And only 3 million guns.
And a mandatory buyback.
And no paranoia that black folks are going to riot and steal everything once they were disarmed.
And more than a few of their GUNZ people moved to the US after their regulations were put in place.

I bet it helps to be an island as well.

417 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:44:34am

re: #409 Four More Tears

I totally missed the part where he says that he's reprinting a letter from someone one else.

Not sure what you mean.

418 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:45:45am

Heh, funniest thing I read today is from the WSJ. According to them, fiscal cliff negotiations broke down on Monday when Obama made obvious to Boehner just how untenable his position was:

Mr. Obama repeatedly lost patience with the speaker as negotiations faltered. In an Oval Office meeting last week, he told Mr. Boehner that if the sides didn't reach agreement, he would use his inaugural address and his State of the Union speech to tell the country the Republicans were at fault.

At one point, according to notes taken by a participant, Mr. Boehner told the president, "I put $800 billion [in tax revenue] on the table. What do I get for that?"

"You get nothing," the president said. "I get that for free."

419 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:46:17am

re: #417 Political Atheist

re: #409 Four More Tears

Not sure what you mean.

Frum didn't write that. He re-posted a letter from a reader. The whole first-person thing tripped me up in combination with not reading the part in italics. My mistake.

420 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:46:43am

re: #410 HappyWarrior

You know I never thought about it like that but this is a really good point. He specifically named Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto which are the two series that I see blamed the most. There was another one he named that was totally obscure. Think I saw someone here point out that it was a flash game no less.

Hell, if someone really wants to stretch it, they can make an argument that military-style games such as the ones I mentioned above are "murder simulators" because of the hardware depicted and what's necessary to be successful in-game if you're playing a lone wolf and not playing tactics as a team.

I won't say that, because for most people, it's a fantasy and a release from the real world for a while; those who don't see it as a fantasy are already people with deeper problems that aren't going to be set off by a damn game.

421 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:48:44am

re: #415 Gus

[Embedded content]

Guess it was the video games... no, wait!

The juxtaposition with the story on LaPierre's presser is jarring, to say the least.

422 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:53:01am

re: #421 TedStriker

The juxtaposition with the story on LaPierre's presser is jarring, to say the least.

These bozos keeping unlocked guns in reach of children need to face stiffer penalties.

423 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:53:35am

re: #419 Four More Tears

I never took sociology. No clue how uniquely American this angry young teen or extremely rebellious youth phenomenon is. I think we all were or knew a deeply troubled kid. When I was in high school one of those kids killed himself with a car. Left a note took the car and crashed it at high speed.

For all the right reasons parents and educators need tools to help. Given the more than rare link between creativity and certain kinds of genius and deep emotional issues in youth, we can't afford to lose those lives.

424 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:02:04am
Following is the letter of resignation sent last week by former President George Bush to the National Rifle Association: May 3, 1995

Dear Mr. Washington,

I was outraged when, even in the wake of the Oklahoma City tragedy, Mr. Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of N.R.A., defended his attack on federal agents as "jack-booted thugs." To attack Secret Service agents or A.T.F. people or any government law enforcement people as "wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms" wanting to "attack law abiding citizens" is a vicious slander on good people.

Al Whicher, who served on my [ United States Secret Service ] detail when I was Vice President and President, was killed in Oklahoma City. He was no Nazi. He was a kind man, a loving parent, a man dedicated to serving his country -- and serve it well he did.

In 1993, I attended the wake for A.T.F. agent Steve Willis, another dedicated officer who did his duty. I can assure you that this honorable man, killed by weird cultists, was no Nazi.

rest at link

425 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:35:47am

Never mind.

426 stabby  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:39:05am

re: #425 Romantic Heretic

You didn't read closely.

Frum did not write that article he's reprinting (and probably editting) a letter from a reader.

427 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:41:42am

I realize that. There's no need to shout.

428 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 12:34:07pm

I didn't read the whole letter at David Frum's blog yet, but what I read I found very disturbing, and not at all "brave".
The way I understand it, the writer is basically talking to all those living with an abusive person, and he is telling them: "If your abusers hurt other people, if they don't "heal", then that's because you did not love them enough."
And he says that A. L. had evidence that this was the case; well, he explains, clearly not true evidence, but by saying that the mother was the last bulwark against this horror, and that other people succeeded where she failed, he is telling people who live with abusive relatives or partners, that they must be Ceasar's wife, if they don't want this to happen.
If they never give any reason, or excuse, for doubt, never seek outside help ("tried to get him commited"), never have other interests ("volunteered"), then they can magically be all the abuser needs to be a good person. No state interference necessary! Problem solved. And if it doesn't work, then they didn't love hard enough, and all that happens is on their head.
I'm not saying A.L.'s mother did right by him. I don't know a thing about that, I'm just talking about what this letter writer describes.
I also find it pretty telling how much he emphasizes that all his troubles as a teenager were just a consequence of being so extremely smart; "look at me, I can do math in my head! Now do you get why I'm acting like an asshole, stupid ordinary person?"
I think this is an incredibly manipulative and dangerous message to send. Even if the writer is at this point no longer abusive in the way he describes, and even if, maybe, he never was, but really was just a rude and inconsiderate teenager who prefers to think of himself in more dramatic terms, I would discourage anyone from getting to close to him. This letter is a master piece in manipulation.
He creates a whole symphony of "authenticity" and "openness" and candid admission of guilt, but the lesson of the whole thing is: "I'm special, and no one should ever not treat me the way I deserve, or else!."

429 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 12:45:53pm

re: #428 suchislife

I don't think you read what he wrote very carefully. I especially think this rush to judgement of him based on part one of three is misguided.

In his case, he's saying he would have snapped if he felt his mother ever gave up on him. He doesn't say that if they don't heal, it's because you didn't love them enough. He fully acknowledges how hard it is to love a kid like that. What he's saying is that from his personal experience, his read on what triggered her was the attempt to commit him, and the reason for the target was a displacement-- the kids who got what he felt he deserved. He's not defending this, he's not even saying that she was wrong to seek his commitment. He said this:

Children like me will look for reasons to ignore love, especially if we feel the people who love us are also hurting us.

So obviously he's not saying that she didn't love him enough, but that in Adam's state, he ignored the love because he was seeking to ignore it.

As a thought experiment, assume that the writer is not being manipulative, but sincere. Assume that he's giving an honest recounting of what his mental state was. how should he have worded this differently? What advice could he give, if he honestly thinks that he would have snapped if he felt his mother had given up on him, other than to do your best to not let your kid think that you've given up on them?

I also find it pretty telling how much he emphasizes that all his troubles as a teenager were just a consequence of being so extremely smart; "look at me, I can do math in my head! Now do you get why I'm acting like an asshole, stupid ordinary person?"

Where does the author speak about his own intelligence at all? I read the story twice and can't find it. If you really just made that up, then you really, really need to rethink your take on this, don't you agree?

430 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:03:20pm

re: #429 Obdicut

I don't think you read what he wrote very carefully. I especially think this rush to judgement of him based on part one of three is misguided.

Yes, that's what I say in the very first sentence. Part one and two actually, though. Let's see whether part three will change my mind!

In his case, he's saying he would have snapped if he felt his mother ever gave up on him. He doesn't say that if they don't heal, it's because you didn't love them enough. He fully acknowledges how hard it is to love a kid like that. What he's saying is that from his personal experience, his read on what triggered her was the attempt to commit him, and the reason for the target was a displacement-- the kids who got what he felt he deserved. He's not defending this, he's not even saying that she was wrong to seek his commitment. He said this:

So obviously he's not saying that she didn't love him enough, but that in Adam's state, he ignored the love because he was seeking to ignore it.

Yes, that's why I wrote, maybe to elliptically, that the writer acknowledges this view to be mistaken.
Like I said, it is a candid admission of guilt. He is saying, I should have seen what you were trying to do, but I couldn't see it at the time. All good so far. I didn't dwell on this because he made that quite clear, and frankly, it's not that stunning an insight. Many teenagers could say the same thing, or exes.
But intertwined with it is a more problematic message, that I was trying to highlight. Namely, if the person who treats you like that cannot see that you're trying to give them love, if you are not, as I said, Ceasar's wife, then this is what could happen: they could snap.
Some do, some don't, and the difference, says the author, is whether the person they abuse is convincing enough. And now suddenly, the candid admission becomes a powerful tool. Because the abused person can no longer say, anyone could have seen I was trying, it was enough. They have to conform to an irrational, entirely subjective standard. Or else.

As a thought experiment, assume that the writer is not being manipulative, but sincere.

I assume he is both. Many of the best manipulators can yield sincerity like a weapon. And they are their own best audiences and greatest fans, as well as greatest critics.

Assume that he's giving an honest recounting of what his mental state was. how should he have worded this differently? What advice could he give, if he honestly thinks that he would have snapped if he felt his mother had given up on him, other than to do your best to not let your kid think that you've given up on them?

He could have emphasized that sometimes, living with an abusive person is just too much to take. And that even though not giving up on someone you love is a wonderful thing, if you do give up, if you let go in order to protect yourself, that does not make you responsible for all he does or suffers. He could have emphasized that we are each other's friends, (which I believe, deeply, and consider to be a deep commitment), but we are not each other's saviors, even though sometimes, a friend's commitment can save you.
But most of all, he should not described an abusive person snapping as the failure of someone they abused. And especially not as a failure of love. That is deeply hurtful, and unfair.

Where does the author speak about his own intelligence at all? I read the story twice and can't find it. If you really just made that up, then you really, really need to rethink your take on this, don't you agree?

It's in the second part you'll find linked. I think at the bottom of the page. And I never stop rethinking my take on anything.

431 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:15:35pm

re: #430 suchislife

And look at that, I rethought part of it. :-) I do regret saying that I would discourage getting close to this person. This is just one letter. It seems to me, based on what I've read, that this person could talk himself and others into all kinds of things, and that here, he uses his abilities in a troubling and ultimately self-serving way. But that's just one action. If that was the standard, then no one on earth should ever be trusted.

432 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:22:00pm

re: #430 suchislife

Like I said, it is a candid admission of guilt. He is saying, I should have seen what you were trying to do, but I couldn't see it at the time. All good so far. I didn't dwell on this because he made that quite clear, and frankly, it's not that stunning an insight. Many teenagers could say the same thing, or exes.

But intertwined with it is a more problematic message, that I was trying to highlight. Namely, if the person who treats you like that cannot see that you're trying to give them love, if you are not, as I said, Ceasar's wife, then this is what could happen: they could snap.

Some do, some don't, and the difference, says the author, is whether the person they abuse is convincing enough. And now suddenly, the candid admission becomes a powerful tool. Because the abused person can no longer say, anyone could have seen I was trying, it was enough. They have to conform to an irrational, entirely subjective standard. Or else.

Again, why do you not think he's saying the 'or else' is an honest warning of what can occur, rather than this cynical manipulation?

Some do, some don't, and the difference, says the author, is whether the person they abuse is convincing enough.

Can you point out where he says this is the difference between the groups?

I assume he is both. Many of the best manipulators can yield sincerity like a weapon. And they are their own best audiences and greatest fans, as well as greatest critics.

This is sounding more and more personal.

He could have emphasized that sometimes, living with an abusive person is just too much to take. And that even though not giving up on someone you love is a wonderful thing, if you do give up, if you let go in order to safe yourself, that does not make you responsible. He could have emphasized that ultimatelly, we are each other's friends, (which I believe, deeply, and consider to be a deep commitment), but we are not each other's savior, even though sometimes, a friend's commitment can save you.

He's not talking about friends. He's talking about a mother-son relationship. And our parents really are vastly important to us in a way nobody else can be.

It's in the second part you'll find linked. I think at the bottom of the page. And I never stop rethinking my take on anything.

Okay, I read that, and I think you're overstating it. He does have muddled ideas about intelligence, as most people do, but he makes the point that for all how smart he was, he was smart about creating entirely wrong hypotheses-- the Lindsey Lohan lawyer analogy. And it's entirely true that being very smart in most public schools in the US will get a target painted on your back, and lead to social ostracism.

It is entirely possible this guy is entirely wrong that Adam Lanza's story is anything like his. That doesn't, however, invalidate his point: parents occupy a very unique role for us in terms of pscyhological help, and feeling that your parents have given up on you is devastating. You may see it representing a lack of empathy for the caretaker, but he acknowledges that often this can't be done alone.

You really seem like you're responding to the writer as if he is a manipulative sociopath. Is that your belief?

433 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:23:10pm

re: #431 suchislife

And look at that, I rethought part of it. :-) I do regret saying that I would discourage getting close to this person. This is just one letter. It seems to me, based on what I've read, that this person could talk himself and others into all kinds of things, and that here, he uses his abilities in a troubling and ultimately self-serving way. But that's just one action. If that was the standard, then no one on earth should ever be trusted.

I really don't get what psychic process you are using to determine that he's giving self-serving, manipulative advice rather than sincere and well-meant advice, however criticizeable it may be.

434 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:37:12pm

re: #432 Obdicut

You really seem like you're responding to the writer as if he is a manipulative sociopath. Is that your belief?

xx

I really don't get what psychic process you are using to determine that he's giving self-serving, manipulative advice rather than sincere and well-meant advice, however criticizeable it may be

Hope this works, format-wise! No, I do not think the writer of this is a sociopath, or anything like that. I would like to repeat that I do not think manipulative and sincere are necessarily mutually exclusive; maybe in one action, so to speak, but he says a lot of things, and as I said, I think there is sincere admission, mixed together with rather dangerous insinuations.
As to his motivations, that's not my point, and I think you'll find that I talked about a dangerous message, and about how that message is ultimately enabling to abusers, and disempowering to those abused.
Motivations are a difficult things I find, and I try to avoid talking about them. Maybe you think that calling an utterance manipulative already makes too much of a statement there?
Ok, let me get to the rest of what you wrote!

435 EPR-radar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:39:50pm

re: #395 Political Atheist

I went to bed too soon, missed that considered response. The reason the NRA has that high profile despite not representing about 90% of gun owners is the influence in the legislatures across the country and of course in DC. Even the 10% of gun owners that are members are divided by about half. So the NRA was really only speaking for a tiny fraction of gun owners.

We can only quit the NRA once.

The 90% of gun owners making calls and sending some campaign money is not enough. The vast majority of non gun owners need to tell their reps to not listen to the NRA. The gun owners and those people could easily overcome the money advantage the NRA has displayed so far, if a coherent effort was made. Voices dollars and votes.

Does PETA well represent animal lovers and pet owners? Shall we judge the desires of the overall African American community by the stated rhetoric of the nation of Islam?

Judging a group by its high profile fringe is how groups are denigrated without thinking. Without wisdom. With prejudice. Without an open mind.

We gun owners and non gun owners have work to do. I'm in with you. Where would you like to start?

Your response clearly illustrates the problem. The Nation of Islam is not the only political voice for the black community --- there is at least the NAACP and probably others. Ditto with PETA --- sane alternatives include the SPCA and likely others. People have to ignore highly visible evidence to form incorrect group judgements.

For guns, we presently have the NRA and the GOA. Batshit and more batshit. There is no sane version of the NRA with national visibility. The main reason I presently do not view all gun owners as being as rabid as the NRA is reading posts right here at LGF.

An anti-NRA PAC is worth thinking about. But, in my opinion, such a PAC would be much more effective if gun owners basically led the charge in the PAC. The agenda of non-gun owners is simply a total opposition to the NRA and all its works, which isn't exactly what gun owners are likely to want.

436 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:42:26pm

re: #434 suchislife

Manipulative and sincere in terms of this certainly are opposed: you're alleging, it seems to me, that he's positing this in such a way as to say that all responsibility lies on the parent, that they're to blame if they don't give enough love or communicate it right, and using this as an 'or else' to force or coerce caregivers into not abandoning a kid no matte how they behave.

This is inconsistent with believing that he's sincerely saying that a parent perceived to give up hope may be a triggering event for an ostracized and violent kid, and so, acknowledging the parent wants the best outcome for the kid (and themselves), this should be avoided strenuously and that even if you can't handle the kid on your own, showing that you're not giving up is important-- and that it may sometimes be impossible, since these kids may choose to ignore love.

437 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:52:00pm

re: #432 Obdicut

Can you point out where he says this is the difference between the groups?

"Those two facts together seem to have led Adam to the conclusion – perfectly logically from the point of view of a kid like him and like me as I then was – that his mother cared more about the children of Sandy Hook than she did about him. In his reaction and rage, a shooter was born.

Parents, I cannot stress this enough: the healing process starts with you. Not the mental health community. Not the police. Not the government. Not the school. You."

He's not talking about friends. He's talking about a mother-son relationship. And our parents really are vastly important to us in a way nobody else can be.

Yes, sorry, I was really inside my own head a bit too much when I wrote that. I was thinking about "you are your brother's keeper", and I was trying to make the point that we, be it parents or other loved ones, HAVE a responsibility to each other, one born out of love, but that there is a limit to this. So I used friend/savior to make that point, although not very well.

It is entirely possible this guy is entirely wrong that Adam Lanza's story is anything like his. That doesn't, however, invalidate his point: parents occupy a very unique role for us in terms of pscyhological help, and feeling that your parents have given up on you is devastating. You may see it representing a lack of empathy for the caretaker, but he acknowledges that often this can't be done alone.

Agreed, he says it "starts" with the parents. Again, I am not disputing every little thing this guy says. As I wrote right in the beginning, I am worried that this letter carries a message that is harmful. Should the guy have written it? Did he think of it as a loveletter to his mother? Very likely. But I think it should come with a warning, because it contains something potentially harmful and that's why I tried to supply that warning.

438 EPR-radar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:54:24pm

re: #435 EPR-radar

Your response clearly illustrates the problem. The Nation of Islam is not the only political voice for the black community --- there is at least the NAACP and probably others. Ditto with PETA --- sane alternatives include the SPCA and likely others. People have to ignore highly visible evidence to form incorrect group judgements.

...

To follow up, if the Nation of Islam was the only nationally visible black political advocacy group, the black community would have a real problem on its hands that would most likely require them to form and promote a sane alternative. The onus would in fact be on the black community to lead this charge, in order to prove to an often clueless and hostile larger society that the extremism of the NOI is not representative.

439 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:56:05pm

re: #437 suchislife

The part where you quoted doesn't in the least bit say that the difference between the two groups is the parents triggering the event. It says that he thinks it might be the reason in this case. It doesn't in the least bit say that there can't be other reasons.

Yes, sorry, I was really inside my own head a bit too much when I wrote that. I was thinking about "you are your brother's keeper", and I was trying to make the point that we, be it parents or other loved ones, HAVE a responsibility to each other, one born out of love, but that there is a limit to this. So I used friend/savior to make that point, although not very well.

Our relationship with our parents is incomparable, it is one of the most important things in the world to us.

Agreed, he says it "starts" with the parents. Again, I am not disputing every little thing this guy says. As I wrote right in the beginning, I am worried that this letter carries a message that is harmful.

What is the possible harm that you see?

440 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 1:57:56pm

And by the way, while i think this guy's letter is useful, I also think he's jumping to a huge assumption. Sure, it makes a logical narrative that Adam's behavior was as he said, a reaction to his mother's actions and his choice of target based on the emotions of that, but it's just a speculation.

I don't think he's that great a writer and he presents his ideas in somewhat jumbled terms.

441 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 2:02:26pm

re: #436 Obdicut

Well, I think it's not that terribly uncommon to look at something you thought was the height of sincerity at the time, and in a way it totally was, but then later on you realize that really, it put you in a very convenient position, and not just by accident. Especially when it is about matters of guilt, or when you're a teenager. Hopefully not that common, but certainly not too amazing.
I've certainly seen that from both sides, albeit only in small ways, luckily. Do we want to call that manipulative? Is passive-aggressiveness manipulative? I guess I would start calling the utterance or what-have-you manipulative earlier then many, but the person who made it later. It's a bit like the difference between calling something someone said racist, versus calling the person racist. To me, there is a real difference there. But I know it often feels like the same thing to many.

442 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 2:04:54pm

re: #441 suchislife

That's basically saying that he could be being unconsciously manipulative, but i still don't see what you think he's getting out of this. What's his goal, that you think he's manipulating his way towards?

443 suchislife  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 2:29:15pm

re: #442 Obdicut

Well, no, in your answers to me, you keep making it about him, some person I don't know, having clear goals, or clear unconscious goals, or motivations, but I'm really just talking about a letter, a piece of writing. That's why I regretted making that comment about approaching him, the writer. People say stupid things.
I'm saying there is a letter, and it was positioned in a way likely to get it widespread attention. And that letter is part of all the solution-seeking and soul-searching and blame-placing that is going on right now. And it carries a message.
It suggests that there is a group of people to which a guy who killed 20 children belongs, and also the letter writer. And it suggests that all of them could potentially become mass murders. So then the question becomes, what's the solution, how can we avoid that, and if we can't, who or what is to blame? Because that is where the discussion is at, right now. The discussion this letter is posed to join. And then it is very, very, heavily insinuated that whatever else happens, the key, the crucial first thing, is the mother not giving up, the mother not giving any cause for doubt as to her devotion.
(And contrary to your take on it, he does talk about no longer being isolated at school as what made the difference for him, he even described the specialness of his mother to him in terms of her being "a captive audience" to tide him over.)
Imagine reading this, say, if you're a high school girl, and your boyfriend is treating you bad, is always moody, angry. Imagine he tells you, "sorry, sorry, but you are the only one who understands me! without you, I don't know what I would do." Imagine being married to a man who beats you, who tells you the same thing. Are they sincere? Certainly many of them are. Is that a manipulative thing for them to say? YES, absolutely, I would call it that. A letter like this reinforces this narrative in a dangerous way.
Imagine if A.L.'s mother had survived, and read this. This letter is telling every mother with a boy who was wild, and who didn't make it, that she could have done it. Her own boy could be all this anonymous letter writer claims he is. All the other institutions could have worked, if only she could have provided that first step. That's pretty harmful, in my view.

444 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 2:53:59pm

re: #443 suchislife

Imagine reading this, say, if you're a high school girl, and your boyfriend is treating you bad, is always moody, angry. Imagine he tells you, "sorry, sorry, but you are the only one who understands me! without you, I don't know what I would do."

I'd say this doesn't apply, since I'm not his mom.

Imagine being married to a man who beats you, who tells you the same thing.

I'd say it's not the thing, and a really bizarre comparison to make.

You are acting as though the kid had said that you need to just suck it up, do nothing, and take whatever abuse is given. He said that you may need help to deal with your kid. Your presentation is not actually what he's saying and you keep broadening it out over and over again.

(And contrary to your take on it, he does talk about no longer being isolated at school as what made the difference for him, he even described the specialness of his mother to him in terms of her being "a captive audience" to tide him over.)

How is that contrary to what I'm saying?

This letter is telling every mother with a boy who was wild, and who didn't make it, that she could have done it.

He doesn't say that everyone has the capacity to do it, though. Again, assume he's sincere, that feeling that his mother had given up would have really made him snap. It would have been heaertbreaking if his mother had given up and he had snapped, but you're seeing a level of blame at that point that I don't get. He calls parents who can pull through this heroic-- that means they're extraordinary.

? Certainly many of them are. Is that a manipulative thing for them to say? YES, absolutely, I would call it that. A letter like this reinforces this narrative in a dangerous way.

If you ignore that he says that you may not be able to help on your own, which clearly means involving professional help, so it's nothing at all like telling a wife to just stay in an abusive relationship or a girlfriend to just stay with the boyfriend.

I've dealt with friends who were in the grip of absolute depression, and who might have killed themselves if I'd walked out on them in that time. Were they were manipulating me by saying"If you leave me tonight I might kill myself?" No, or only if you count communication as manipulation. They would have been telling the truth. I guess you could see it as manipulation because I'm not their keeper and they don't have the right to make me do anything to help them. In one case, my friend was fine with me calling the paramedics, he just didn't want me to leave him. I stayed with him until they came and went with him to the hospital and his admit until he was in good hands. In the other case, the girl was deathly afraid of institutionalization, so I didn't call the paramedics, I took away the painkillers she had and her alcohol, once she was sober talked through what could possibly happen from here, and got a teacher (who was also a psychiatrist) that she trusted to personally come over to talk to her and convince her that institutionalization wasn't something to be feared.

In neither of those cases was telling me a lie, and neither was manipulating unless you stretch the term beyond all recognition. I talked with their therapists afterwards, and in both cases was told it really was a suicidal crisis, and that leaving them alone might have resulted in their deaths. Might have. I could have walked away and maybe everything would be okay, but we're humans, our relationships with each other are the most important things in the world to us, the most important parts of sanity.

Does this mean if someone uses the threat of suicide to get something from someone, that should be tolerated? Not at all. But in this case, I still don't see what you think this person is trying to get, what the manipulation is supposed to achieve.

445 Jimmah  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 4:00:30am

re: #428 suchislife

I also find it pretty telling how much he emphasizes that all his troubles as a teenager were just a consequence of being so extremely smart; "look at me, I can do math in my head! Now do you get why I'm acting like an asshole, stupid ordinary person?"

I agree. I think a lot of people have that feeling at some point while they are growing up, it's the ones who aren't able to grow out of it that you have to watch.


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