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1 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 3:35:14pm

I'll take this as a personal challenge to find the most odd Christmas song I can...

I'll start here:

2 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 3:42:49pm

Here's one that got some play a few years back, from Ryan Allen, a quite unusual Christmas song:

3 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:00:35pm

I guess the assholes from Westboro ran in to something they didn't expect. lol

Bikers Block Westboro Baptist Church From Protesting Newtown Funerals
[Link: samuel-warde.com...]

4 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:01:25pm

Christmas Unicorn.

5 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:03:46pm

re: #3 Tigger2

I guess the assholes from Westboro ran in to something they didn't expect. lol

Bikers Block Westboro Baptist Church From Protesting Newtown Funerals
[Link: samuel-warde.com...]

The Patriot Guard has been blocking and drowning out the Westboro freaks for years already, this is nothing new.

6 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:11:41pm

re: #5 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

The Patriot Guard has been blocking and drowning out the Westboro freaks for years already, this is nothing new.

It wasn't just the Patriot Guard it was also the Hells Angles.

7 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:12:28pm

re: #6 Tigger2

It wasn't just the Patriot Guard it was also the Hells Angles.

Those Isoceles will kill you.

8 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:13:36pm

re: #6 Tigger2

Auto correct is a b*tch.

9 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:13:42pm

re: #7 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Those Isoceles will kill you.

Hundreds of them. lol

10 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:14:03pm

Couple of facts. Hells Angels didn't go to Newtown and neither did the Patriot Guard. Patriot Guard is not a criminal organization like the Hells Angels.

11 jaunte  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:14:45pm

re: #10 Gus

So it's a 180 degree angle.

12 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:15:33pm

re: #11 jaunte

So it's a 180 degree angle.

Just some bogus story.

13 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:16:32pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

Christmas Unicorn.

[Embedded content]

He's wearing a bicycle helmet. Of a sort.

14 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:16:49pm

re: #12 Gus

A right triangle has a sharp angle.

15 researchok  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:19:13pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

Inspired by Dali.

16 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:19:32pm

re: #10 Gus

Couple of facts. Hells Angels didn't go to Newtown and neither did the Patriot Guard. Patriot Guard is not a criminal organization like the Hells Angels.

Just going by what the article says.

17 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:20:21pm

re: #7 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Those Isoceles will kill you.

Isosceles.

[/pedant] (but to be honest, it's never [/pedant])

18 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:20:50pm

re: #16 Tigger2

Just going by what the article says.

Not blaming you or anything. Just clearing things up. I checked on who showed up last week. The Patriot Guard said that it was outside of their mission scope. There were no reports of the Hells Angels showing up. The Hells Angels are not nice people.

19 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:22:01pm

[Link: www.patriotguard.org...]

*** Connecticut Elementary Shootings ***

The recent, tragic shootings in Connecticut weigh heavy on us all. The Patriot Guard understands the anguish caused by such a calamity as this and our hearts go out to the family and friends of those affected by this horrific event.

We (PGR) receive hundreds of emails a day requesting the PGR to stand in honor at the planned services. However, the PGR is not a counter protest group. Our mission statement is clear and regrettably the circumstances surrounding this tragic event do not fall within our mission statement. For more details on our missions statement, please go to [Link: www.PatriotGuard.org...] and review the information located in the “About Us” section in the Site Navigation section.

Again, our hearts go out to all of the families of the affected families, and to the community as a whole, for this tremendous loss.

Patriot Guard Riders, Inc.

20 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:23:42pm

re: #18 Gus

Not blaming you or anything. Just clearing things up. I checked on who showed up last week. The Patriot Guard said that it was outside of their mission scope. There were no reports of the Hells Angels showing up. The Hells Angels are not nice people.

The part about the Angles came from the Anonymous FB page was put in the article.

And the Angles would do something like that for kids. I used to belong to a MC when I was younger.

21 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:25:42pm

re: #20 Tigger2

The part about the Angles came from the Anonymous FB page was put in the article.

That's good. It's still BS.

22 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:25:52pm

re: #15 researchok

Inspired by Dali.

Thanks for posting that article on the anarchist chick turned zen nun. Just finished reading and realized I don't sit as often as I used to. I should do something about that.

23 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:27:12pm

re: #21 Gus

There is good BS and there is the stuff you have to hose out of the stables.

24 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:29:38pm

i'll be hummed for christmas

becuz nobody knows my words

25 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:41:06pm
26 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:48:32pm

OK, nix the European plates thing. Photo is from 2007.

funeral for a murdered member of the the hells angels 2007
7 images found

27 researchok  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:49:30pm

OT: If I create a page and save it as a draft, how do I access that later on?

28 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:52:09pm

re: #27 researchok

OT: If I create a page and save it as a draft, how do I access that later on?

Menu: LGF Pages Dashboard: Click on the title of the page to edit.

29 researchok  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 4:56:55pm

re: #28 Gus

Thanks- found it!

30 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:09:20pm

Christmas in the Honey Boo Boo nation:

31 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:10:46pm

Just because it's not video games doesn't mean it's just the guns.

32 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:15:16pm

re: #31 Gus

Just because it's not video games doesn't mean it's just the guns.

True, but it is the largest part.
;)

33 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:18:40pm

Monday night football on Saturday night.. Does it get any more exciting?

34 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:21:39pm

re: #33 A Man for all Seasons

That depends on your definition of exciting.

35 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:22:40pm
36 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:24:45pm

re: #35 wrenchwench

But we still have TastyKake. [Link: www.tastykake.com...]

37 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:26:46pm

re: #36 PhillyPretzel

But we still have TastyKake. [Link: www.tastykake.com...]

And Little Debbie.

38 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:28:53pm

re: #35 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Come on, we all know that there's an enormous warehouse full of them, somewhere out there, that will survive the nuclear apocalypse.

//

39 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:30:58pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

Come on, we all know that there's an enormous warehouse full of them, somewhere out there, that will survive the nuclear apocalypse.

//

But will it survive an ion cannon strike?

40 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:32:21pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

Come on, we all know that there's an enormous warehouse full of them, somewhere out there, that will survive the nuclear apocalypse.

//

I suspect there are also thousands of smaller private stashes. The alien anthropologists will ascribe religious significance to them.

41 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:32:22pm

re: #39 Varek Raith

But will it survive an ion cannon strike?

Kane did, so surely they must.

//

42 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:35:21pm

re: #41 Targetpractice

Kane did, so surely they must.

//

Kane was hax.
Doesn't count.
:P

43 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:36:15pm

re: #42 Varek Raith

Kane was hax.
Doesn't count.
:P

You can't kill the messiah.

//

44 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:40:52pm

I bought a piece of 30 year old cheese recently. I couldn't help myself. There were no Twinkies available however.

45 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:47:31pm

re: #44 Amory Blaine

I bought a piece of 30 year old cheese recently. I couldn't help myself. There were no Twinkies available however.

I prefer the cheese curds that are about 30 minutes old.

46 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:48:57pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

Cottage Cheese or Ricotta?

47 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:51:32pm

re: #46 PhillyPretzel

Cottage Cheese or Ricotta?

I like both of those, but I meant the cheddar curds that aren't aged at all. I had them most recently at the Tillamook cheese factory in Oregon.

48 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:53:00pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

Heh, just making 3 cheese mac for dinner tonight. Perfect for a December misty night. Adding some crisped bacon bits and ground beef.

49 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:53:12pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

That is neat. Squeaky Cheese.

50 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 5:54:18pm

re: #48 Political Atheist

Heh, just making 3 cheese mac for dinner tonight. Perfect for a December misty night. Adding some crisped bacon bits and ground beef.

OK, now I'm hungry. Time to go home. I leave you with a repost of my new favorite Christmas song.

51 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:02:03pm

I love sitting with a plate of nice crackers or bread, cheese, sausage(venison) or other cured meat(gabagool), some kind of spicy peppers or olives. With a delicious lager or high hopped ale.

52 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:07:29pm

re: #51 Amory Blaine
Every once in a while I'll have smoked oysters on a plate like that. With some blue cheese.
Have you tried this years Celebration Ale from Sierra?

53 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:10:44pm
54 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:12:29pm

re: #18 Gus

Not blaming you or anything. Just clearing things up. I checked on who showed up last week. The Patriot Guard said that it was outside of their mission scope. There were no reports of the Hells Angels showing up. The Hells Angels are not nice people.

Hell's Grannies, perhaps?

55 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:15:16pm

re: #52 Political Atheist

No but I'll keep it in mind when I go to the liquor store. I love their pale ale.

56 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:17:02pm

re: #54 Feline Fearless Leader

Hell's Grannies, perhaps?

[Embedded content]

Vicious Babushkas!

57 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:25:40pm

re: #56 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Vicious Babushkas!

LMAO--now I have this hilarious picture on my head of a bunch of frum Jewish grannies riding around on choppers, carrying bread & pies in their saddlebags and armed with rolling pins.

58 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:27:56pm

re: #57 CuriousLurker

Rolling Pins and Cast Iron frying pans. A very dangerous mix. /

59 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:30:58pm

re: #58 PhillyPretzel

Rolling Pins and Cast Iron frying pans. A very dangerous mix. /

No kidding! I wonder what their jackets would look like... they'd prolly have pics of their grandkids on them or something. *giggle*

60 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:33:47pm

re: #59 CuriousLurker

No kidding! I wonder what their jackets would look like... they'd prolly have pic of their grandkids on them or something. *giggle*

Holding down thin people and pouring chicken soup down their throats.
;)

61 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:34:04pm

My favourite atheist Christmas song.

White Wine In The Sun by Tim Minchin

I really like Christmas
It's sentimental, I know, but I just really like it
I am hardly religious
I'd rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu, to be honest

And yes, I have all of the usual objections
To consumerism, the commercialisation of an ancient religion
To the westernisation of a dead Palestinian
Press-ganged into selling Playstations and beer
But I still really like it

I'm looking forward to Christmas
Though I'm not expecting a visit from Jesus

I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun

I don't go in for ancient wisdom
I don't believe just 'cos ideas are tenacious it means they are worthy
I get freaked out by churches
Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords but the lyrics are dodgy

And yes I have all of the usual objections
To the miseducation of children who, in tax-exempt institutions,
Are taught to externalise blame
And to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right and wrong
But I quite like the songs

I'm not expecting big presents
The old combination of socks, jocks and chocolate is just fine by me

Cos I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun

And you, my baby girl
My jetlagged infant daughter
You'll be handed round the room
Like a puppy at a primary school
And you won't understand
But you will learn someday
That wherever you are and whatever you face
These are the people who'll make you feel safe in this world
My sweet blue-eyed girl

And if, my baby girl
When you're twenty-one or thirty-one
And Christmas comes around
And you find yourself nine thousand miles from home
You'll know what ever comes
Your brother and sisters and me and your Mum
Will be waiting for you in the sun
Whenever you come
Your brothers and sisters, your aunts and your uncles
Your grandparents, cousins and me and your mum
We'll be waiting for you in the sun
Drinking white wine in the sun
Darling, when Christmas comes
We'll be waiting for you in the sun
Drinking white wine in the sun
Waiting for you in the sun
Waiting for you...
Waiting...

I really like Christmas
It's sentimental, I know...

62 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:34:35pm

re: #59 CuriousLurker

Julia Child School of Self-Defense uses this: [Link: www.amazon.com...]

63 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:40:07pm

re: #60 Feline Fearless Leader

Holding down thin people and pouring chicken soup down their throats.
;)

"You. Yes you, you look thin. Why don't you eat?? Here, have some chicken soup. NO, it's not optional. And, you--such a pretty girl--why are you hiding behind your hair like that?? Move it out of your face or you'll never find a husband. Speaking of husbands, my sister has a son who's a..."

re: #62 PhillyPretzel

Julia Child School of Self-Defense uses this: [Link: www.amazon.com...]

LOL--deadly, yet stylish.

64 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:43:44pm

From Huffpo:

Jesse James Is An Idiot

On his Facebook page, the 43-year-old, who used to run West Coast Choppers out of Long Beach, Calif, writes that he witnessed so many shootings that having a gun was the only thing that made him feel safe.

"Since the 1980's California has led the nation with the strictest gun control laws. In the middle of this state I have seen more dead bodies than I can count," he wrote, going on to describe weekly sightings of streets closed off with yellow police tape because someone had been shot dead.

In 2011, California had approximately 37,300,000 people, and 1,809 murders, or .0049 percent. In 2010, it was .0048 percent.

In 2010, Texas had approximately 25,700,000 people, and 1,126 murders, or .0043%. In 2010 it was .0044 percent.

Based on those numbers, I think I'd take California and the "heightened" risk.

65 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:51:41pm

My favorite Christmas song:

John Prine - Christmas In Prison

66 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:54:40pm

More gun derangement:

Yet another wingnut has warned me that liberty-hating libs will come after my model plane collection and mini-business once they get all the guns rounded up. The reason: They hate the military and all weapons, of course, and most of the models are of military planes.

I am not making this up.

67 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:54:42pm

People are throwing money at Newtown, CT.

OK OK I understand people want to DO SOMETHING and they feel helpless so the only thing they can do is send FREAKING DONATIONS to a town where the median income in $115,000/year.

*FACE PALM*

68 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:57:07pm

re: #63 CuriousLurker

"You. Yes you, you look thin. Why don't you eat?? Here, have some chicken soup. NO, it's not optional. And, you--such a pretty girl--why are you hiding behind your hair like that?? Move it out of your face or you'll never find a husband. Speaking of husbands, my sister has a son who's a..."

You got that Jewish granny thing down even better than me!

69 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 6:59:02pm

re: #66 Shiplord Kirel

More gun derangement:

Yet another wingnut has warned me that liberty-hating libs will come after my model plane collection and mini-business once they get all the guns rounded up. The reason: They hate the military and all weapons, of course, and most of the models are of military planes.

I am not making this up.

"First they came for the fighter plane models..."

Lord, what utter lunacy. It absolutely scares them, the idea that people may be tired of burying children every time a middle-class white kid decides he'll turn a school into a shooting gallery.

70 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:05:44pm

re: #18 Gus

Not blaming you or anything. Just clearing things up. I checked on who showed up last week. The Patriot Guard said that it was outside of their mission scope. There were no reports of the Hells Angels showing up. The Hells Angels are not nice people.

"Angel Action" might refer to the people who made "Angel Wings" screens that they wore to wall off the WBC haters when the assholes protested the funerals of those who were murdered by Jared Loughner in Tuscon.

71 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:05:45pm

re: #67 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

People are throwing money at Newtown, CT.

OK OK I understand people want to DO SOMETHING and they feel helpless so the only thing they can do is send FREAKING DONATIONS to a town where the median income in $115,000/year.

*FACE PALM*

It's ridiculous. What sort of money do they think they need? They don't have to pay huge medical bills, or rebuild anything. They just have Christmas presents sitting in the closet that will never be opened. And little cold coffins.

Someone here was wondering if they should send a collection from their gun club. What amount of money are you going to give a parent that will change anything? What sort of hugs and prayers and thoughts will do anything for parents who had to identify the bloodied body of their needlessly murdered first grader two weeks before Christmas?

The only thing I can think of that would actually make a real difference is to send pictures of your guns. Dismantled and destroyed. To show that finally, finally, their fellow Americans realise the madness must stop.

72 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:07:53pm

re: #66 Shiplord Kirel

More gun derangement:

Yet another wingnut has warned me that liberty-hating libs will come after my model plane collection and mini-business once they get all the guns rounded up. The reason: They hate the military and all weapons, of course, and most of the models are of military planes.

I am not making this up.

(Holds up Battletech Battlemaster miniature)

From my cold, dead hand!

///

73 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:09:46pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

"First they came for the fighter plane models..."

Lord, what utter lunacy. It absolutely scares them, the idea that people may be tired of burying children every time a middle-class white kid decides he'll turn a school into a shooting gallery.

You gotta remember that these people really do think that the Ebil Gub'mint is actually scared of them and their pistols and rifles. That's the only reason they want to take them away.

And too many of them do not believe any kids actually died since it was all a fake to use against them.

74 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:10:18pm

re: #64 BongCrodny

From Huffpo:

Jesse James Is An Idiot

In 2011, California had approximately 37,300,000 people, and 1,809 murders, or .0049 percent. In 2010, it was .0048 percent.

In 2010, Texas had approximately 25,700,000 people, and 1,126 murders, or .0043%. In 2010 it was .0044 percent.

Based on those numbers, I think I'd take California and the "heightened" risk.

Cali does have the higher murder rate, though, and it has far tighter gun laws. That does say something, and what it says isn't positive for gun control.

75 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:12:05pm

re: #73 William Barnett-Lewis

You gotta remember that these people really do think that the Ebil Gub'mint is actually scared of them and their pistols and rifles. That's the only reason they want to take them away.

And too many of them do not believe any kids actually died since it was all a fake to use against them.

Any folks who truly believe that deserve pride of place on that "list" the NRA is proposing we compile.

76 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:14:40pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Dang. I could not up load it. It was a picture of a Parker Fountain Pen. That is the most dangerous weapon in the world.

77 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:14:43pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

Cali does have the higher murder rate, though, and it has far tighter gun laws. That does say something, and what it says isn't positive for gun control.

It's not the most ridiculous statement you've made, but the idea that you think a difference in murder rate of 0.0005% is 'something' has easily got to be the most ridiculous this week.

78 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:17:25pm

re: #77 Renaissance_Man

It's not the most ridiculous statement you've made, but the idea that you think a difference in murder rate of 0.0005% is 'something' has easily got to be the most ridiculous this week.

Even if you consider the two rates even, which I'll give you, you still end up with the point that California's far stricter gun laws have not given it a lower murder rate.

79 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:20:10pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Even if you consider the two rates even, which I'll give you, you still end up with the point that California's far stricter gun laws have not given it a lower murder rate.

Conversely, Texas's loose standards have not made them safer.

80 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:20:12pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Even if you consider the two rates even, which I'll give you, you still end up with the point that California's far stricter gun laws have not given it a lower murder rate.

Then the inverse for Texas is true.
;)

81 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:20:47pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

Then the inverse for Texas is true.
;)

Two seconds!

82 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:22:51pm

Buy a gun in a state with loose regulations, drive to a state with tighter regulations and don't report it.

Obviously the problem is the state with the tighter regulations.
/

83 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:28:06pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Even if you consider the two rates even, which I'll give you, you still end up with the point that California's far stricter gun laws have not given it a lower murder rate.

1) Even 'strict' gun laws in the US are very liberal, and by design do very little to reduce the number of guns in circulation.

2) The free flow across state lines makes comparison of gun laws a trivial affair, as the availability of guns is not stemmed at all.

3) All available evidence demonstrates that places with more firearms have both more firearm deaths and more homicides.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:30:19pm

re: #83 Renaissance_Man

1) Even 'strict' gun laws in the US are very liberal, and by design do very little to reduce the number of guns in circulation.

2) The free flow across state lines makes comparison of gun laws a trivial affair, as the availability of guns is not stemmed at all.

3) All available evidence demonstrates that places with more firearms have both more firearm deaths and more homicides.

But we just saw comparing California and Texas that the greater number of guns has not given Texas a higher murder rate.

85 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:31:38pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

But we just saw comparing California and Texas that the greater number of guns has not given Texas a higher murder rate.

You ignored part 2.

86 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:31:58pm

Here we go again.

87 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:35:41pm

It's amazing that even wingnuts who have no direct connection to the pro-gun lobby are so incredibly eager to spread their propaganda.

88 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:37:20pm

Dear gun nuts,
You can not possibly win against a theoretical tyrannical government with your pea shooters when they bring armor, aircraft and highly trained soldiers.
Get over that fantasy.

89 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:38:43pm

Blue laws were made to prevent people in certain regions from purchasing alcohol or engaging in certain activities on prohibited days. Obviously no one living in those areas would purchase alcohol from outside and bring it in on those days, or find means to circumvent those laws. That never happened.

90 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:38:46pm

re: #87 Charles Johnson

It's amazing that even wingnuts who have no direct connection to the pro-gun lobby are so incredibly eager to spread their propaganda.

Now, I do hope you're not calling me a wingnut. I've been calm and sane when others went nuts. If I'm a wingnut, then the term has lost its meaning.

It's your blog, but I feel very strongly about that term being applied to me.

91 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:39:00pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

Dear gun nuts,
You can not possibly win against a theoretical tyrannical government with your pea shooters when they bring armor, aircraft and highly trained soldiers.
Get over that fantasy.

It's like I've noted before, in their fantasy, the US Armed Forces either lay down their arms or even take up with the "revolutionary" cause. The few odd secessionists I've spoken with all repeat the same bit: "They'll never follow Obama's orders to fire on Americans."

92 The Mountain That Blogs  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:39:28pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

Not sure the goal is to win, just to make sure you go out in a blaze of glory. I guess to become a martyr or something. Not sure where I've seen people thinking like that before...

93 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:40:16pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

But we just saw comparing California and Texas that the greater number of guns has not given Texas a higher murder rate.

California doesn't control its own borders. For any gun control law to have any shot at being effective it has to be national.

Considering the degree to which the USA is utterly saturated with guns, it would also require an incredibly long period of time to take effect. Basically in the short to medium term it's always too late. The time to have done something would have been immediately after World War One, but we went after alcohol instead.

94 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:40:28pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

Dear gun nuts,
You can not possibly win against a theoretical tyrannical government with your pea shooters when they bring armor, aircraft and highly trained soldiers.
Get over that fantasy.

David Barton has the answer.

Barton insisted that the Founders called the Second Amendment "the biblical right of self defense" and crafted it to ensure that citizens could protect themselves again any and all threats, including the government, with equal firepower.

In Barton's view, whatever weapons the government possesses must also be available to the population at large because the citizens might one day need to resist the government, so this principle of "equal power ... has got to control the gun control debate":

Every American should be able to exercise their God given right to purchasing an anti-tank missile at their local retailer.

95 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:40:58pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

But we just saw comparing California and Texas that the greater number of guns has not given Texas a higher murder rate.

No, you compared gun laws. Which, given the free flow across state lines in the US, does not necessarily do anything about gun availability. And it is gun availability that correlates with homicides.

96 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:41:25pm

re: #94 Kragar

David Barton has the answer.

Every American should be able to exercise their God given right to purchasing an anti-tank missile at their local retailer.

Damn, where am I going to find room for a Reaper drone?

97 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:42:51pm

re: #96 Targetpractice

Damn, where am I going to find room for a Reaper drone?

When Varek pushes that Death Star petition through, he'll have plenty of hanger space.

/

98 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:43:26pm

re: #96 Targetpractice

Damn, where am I going to find room for a Reaper drone?

You ever try installing a SAM battery on a patio?

99 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:44:19pm

re: #94 Kragar

David Barton has the answer.

Every American should be able to exercise their God given right to purchasing an anti-tank missile at their local retailer.

Equal firepower?

So...
*Heads off to local gunshop to buy a multikiloton device*

100 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:44:23pm

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

When Varek pushes that Death Star petition through, he'll have plenty of hanger space.

/

NO WIRE HANGERS!

101 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:44:38pm

re: #96 Targetpractice

Damn, where am I going to find room for a Reaper drone?

Garage.

102 The Mountain That Blogs  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:44:56pm

re: #94 Kragar

Or put GAU-8 Avengers on their car.

Image: jetpack_speeding.png

103 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:44:59pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

Dear gun nuts,
You can not possibly win against a theoretical tyrannical government with your pea shooters when they bring armor, aircraft and highly trained soldiers.
Get over that fantasy.

You're missing their "point", as it were.

Part of their Red Dawn/Braveheart-style fantasy assumes that when the SHTF, a lot of this nation's fighting men and women will turn on the President (coincidentally, breaking their oaths) and take up arms by their side against the "tyrannical" federal government (and anyone else who happens to get in their way).

Another more important part to that fantasy is that they're positioning themselves to be martyrs "for the cause" (see the endgames of both Red Dawn and Braveheart).

Am I off-base with this assessment?

104 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:45:22pm

re: #93 goddamnedfrank

California doesn't control it's own borders. For any gun control law to have any shot at being effective it has to be national.

Considering the degree to which the USA is utterly saturated with guns, it would also require an incredibly long period of time to take effect. Basically in the short to medium term it's always too late. The time to have done something would have been immediately after World War One, but we went after alcohol instead.

There was no major demand for such an action after World War One, and Woodrow Wilson rapidly lost his domestic support by trying to force the Versailles Treaty through the Senate without amendment.

105 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:47:29pm

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

If you're not spreading pro-gun propaganda, it wouldn't apply to you.

If you are, it would.

106 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:47:46pm

re: #103 TedStriker

You're missing their "point", as it were.

Part of their Red Dawn/Braveheart-style fantasy assumes that when the SHTF, a lot of this nation's fighting men and women will turn on the President (coincidentally, breaking their oaths) and take up arms by their side .

Another more important part to that fantasy is that they're positioning themselves to be martyrs "for the cause" (see the endgames of both Red Dawn and Braveheart).

Am I off-base with this assessment?

Not at all. It's why they keep talking about "peaceful" secession, comparing to divorce, and how Obama should just "let them go." They want to portray any attempt to take up arms against the government as a reaction to tyranny, rather than domestic terrorism. A perpetual persecution complex.

107 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:48:25pm

re: #103 TedStriker

You're missing their "point", as it were.

Part of their Red Dawn/Braveheart-style fantasy assumes that when the SHTF, a lot of this nation's fighting men and women will turn on the President (coincidentally, breaking their oaths) and take up arms by their side .

Another more important part to that fantasy is that they're positioning themselves to be martyrs "for the cause" (see the endgames of both Red Dawn and Braveheart).

Am I off-base with this assessment?

Well, I think the key elements of the fantasy are that the guns they have are magic totems that empower them with life and liberty. And the real benefit of them is that when hordes of crazed liberals come for their stuff after the apocalypse, then they can gun them down.

This film has been made, by the way. It's Legion, with Paul Bettany, who I otherwise like. And that's exactly what happens. The 'weak-willed' city dwellers all become possessed demons, and get blown away in droves by the militia types, who remain strong and pure and armed.

108 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:48:27pm

re: #103 TedStriker

They don't seem to realize that the military is composed of all types of people from all 50 states.

109 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:49:41pm

re: #103 TedStriker

You're missing their "point", as it were.

Part of their Red Dawn/Braveheart-style fantasy assumes that when the SHTF, a lot of this nation's fighting men and women will turn on the President (coincidentally, breaking their oaths) and take up arms by their side .

Another more important part to that fantasy is that they're positioning themselves to be martyrs "for the cause" (see the endgames of both Red Dawn and Braveheart).

Am I off-base with this assessment?

They think that any such "2nd Revolution" will see some of them martyred, but it will be a "short, victorious war", ending in the defeat of "The Left" and the ascendency of "Real America". It does not occur to them that a conspiracy cunning enough to plan false-flag attacks to justify grabbing their guns might also have a backup plan to give them a war that was much longer than they planned and far less victorious.

110 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:50:29pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

There was no major demand for such an action after World War One, and Woodrow Wilson rapidly lost his domestic support by trying to force the Versailles Treaty through the Senate without amendment.

I know. I'm just saying that that would have been the time to enact legislation that would have a significant effect now. And now is the time to enact legislation that has a chance at effecting homicide rates far into the future.

The main point is that any way you slice it, municipal and state regulation is going to be inherently ineffective because cities and states don't have import customs and border enforcement authority. Any practical solution must, by necessity, be national. This seems to me a rather obvious statement of fact, and shouldn't be controversial at all.

111 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:52:13pm

re: #105 Charles Johnson

If you're not spreading pro-gun propaganda, it wouldn't apply to you.

If you are, it would.

Am I to read that to mean that those are pro-gun are to be considered wingnuts in your eyes?

112 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:53:59pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Am I to read that to mean that those are pro-gun are to be considered wingnuts in your eyes?

If they perpetrate paranoid delusions about the UN taking our guns and such, yes, they are wingnuts.

113 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:55:06pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

If they perpetrate paranoid delusions about the UN taking our guns and such, yes, they are wingnuts.

Or that we should heavily arm teachers.
Or station heavily armed guards at every school.
Or that media is the real reason behind these massacres.
Wingnuts.

114 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:56:40pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

re: #113 Varek Raith

None of those things apply to me.

115 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:56:56pm

Or that the Texas murder rate is proof that more guns make everyone safer.

116 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:58:37pm

re: #115 Charles Johnson

And the difference in murder rates is small compared to the national variation. Plus the stated rates don't take into account other factors that can be measured, such as population density (urban/rural), etc.

117 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:59:04pm
118 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:59:06pm

Fun fact for the day:

California 241.7 inhabitants per square mile (93.3 /km2)
Texas 98.07 inhabitants per square mile (37.87 /km2)

119 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 7:59:07pm

By way of getting a bunch of guns off the streets-How about funding more felony warrant raids? Get after the parole violators, the repeat felons with warrants. Those raids have a way of turning up the guns you really want off the streets first. LAPD can do that locally for me. Maybe finding the $$ would help.

120 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:00:52pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Am I to read that to mean that those are pro-gun are to be considered wingnuts in your eyes?

What does it even mean to be 'pro-gun'? I thought you said just yesterday that guns were just a tool? Is being 'pro-gun' like being 'pro-fork'?

Or does being pro-gun mean that the person wants to see America continue to be heavily armed, despite the obvious fact that this state of affairs means that thousands of Americans are sacrificed every year to appease a tiny minority of people who want to cuddle guns? Does being pro-gun mean believing that guns should, in fact, be ascribed mystical powers to give life and freedom and make terrorists scared? That Americans should continue to own massive numbers of objects that make them and everyone around them less safe, just because it makes them feel good?

Does being 'pro-gun' mean that someone believes that an arbitrarily granted 'right' over two hundred years old is more important than the lives of friends, neighbours and children?

Because, if so, that's pretty nutty. Even wingnutty.

121 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:02:06pm

It's pretty easy to find the California-Texas gun crime comparison meme at right wing sites. Just sayin'.

122 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:02:58pm

2010
San Diego Population: 1,313,433 Murders per 100k: 2.2
Dallas Population: 1,306,775 Murders per 100k: 11.3

123 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:05:20pm

California has some cities with extremely low homicide rates.

124 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:06:23pm

San Diego Population density: 4,003/sq mi
Dallas Population density: 3,518/sq mi

125 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:06:52pm

re: #123 Gus

California has some cities with extremely low homicide rates.

And then we have Oakland.

126 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:08:02pm

I don't think the Armed Resistance fantasy has been feasible since the end of WW2. It's certainly been rendered obsolete by integrated surveillance technologies; look at all those violence porn vids on Youtube of brown guys in Toyota pickups with light weapons getting absolutely smeared by airborne gun platforms of all types. Your average bunch of fat white guys with a "compound" in the woods would be snuffed out by a Hellfire on the first day. It's not like the Federales don't know exactly where all those guys live anyway.

Far more likely, I think, that the armed forces would just say a collective "no thanks" to killing U.S. citizens and turning their home states into battlefields. Any coup would be military rather than domestic.

But I think most 2nd Amendment fantasists know this, which is why they often fall back to the default fantasy of shooting rioting black people.

127 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:08:05pm

re: #121 Charles Johnson

It's pretty easy to find the California-Texas gun crime comparison meme at right wing sites. Just sayin'.

But I did not go to such a place. BongCrodny brought up the issues and quote the murder rates. That was all I used. I had visited no propaganda sites.

128 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:08:48pm

re: #125 Kragar

And then we have Oakland.

Yep. We should probably fire some cops and keep building the stadium.

129 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:10:59pm

re: #128 Gus

Yep. We should probably fire some cops and keep building the stadium.

Non-profit organizations like the NFL need all the help they can get.

130 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:13:35pm

re: #129 Kragar

Non-profit organizations like the NFL need all the help they can get.

True that.

131 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:14:44pm

By the way, I'd like to state for the record that I'm totally pro-fork. Life's much easier with a good fork.

The Chinese, for example. Thousands of years ago they invent gunpowder, but not the frigging fork. And look where it got them. That's right. 1.2 billion undereducated peasants and a cuisine where one of delicacies is bird spit.

132 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:14:48pm
133 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:16:06pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

But I did not go to such a place. BongCrodny brought up the issues and quote the murder rates. That was all I used. I had visited no propaganda sites.

Sure. But I really wasn't bringing it up for any other reason than to show Jesse James' posturing -- he's feeding the myth (and the media in this instance is propagating that belief) that more guns = a higher degree of safety, when that's really not the case.

134 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:16:35pm

re: #132 Kragar

New York Post, Daily News Blast NRA Speech

The Daily News is not a surprise but the Post is.

135 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:17:43pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

The Daily News is not a surprise but the Post is.

Yeah.

136 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:18:54pm

re: #133 BongCrodny

Sure. But I really wasn't bringing it up for any other reason than to show Jesse James' posturing -- he's feeding the myth (and the media in this instance is propagating that belief) that more guns = a higher degree of safety, when that's really not the case.

I wasn't knocking you, to be clear, i was just making the point that I hadn't just taken stuff from some wingnut site and dropped it here.

137 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:19:05pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

The Daily News is not a surprise but the Post is.

It was horrible.

138 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:19:30pm

re: #131 Renaissance_Man

I thought they invented forks, but then evolved to chopsticks.

139 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:20:50pm

re: #138 prairiefire

I thought they invented forks, but then evolved to chopsticks.

Bird spit.

The defence rests, your honour.

140 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:22:54pm

re: #139 Renaissance_Man

Bird spit.

The defence rests, your honour.

Fried Twinkies.

Grounds for a Mistrial.

141 EmmaAnne  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:23:20pm

I am perplexed by the idea that California has strong gun control or really any gun control. I lived in Los Angeles and owned a handgun, and I never had to register it and I wasn't required to have a safe or a trigger lock or any training or . . . anything. What is this gun control of which these people speak.

142 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:24:40pm

Here's a study from this year, looking at deaths in 16 states in 2009:

Surveillance for Violent Deaths — National Violent Death Reporting System, 16 States, 2009

[...]

Firearms were used in 66.5% of homicides, followed by sharp instruments (12.9%) and blunt instruments (7.0%). No other single method was used in >3.7% of homicides (Table 9). Firearms were the most common method used in homicides of males (72.1%) and females (48.8%)

[...]

Violent deaths occur among men and women and among persons of all ages, races, and ethnicities. [...]

NVDRS continues to show that relationship problems, particularly with an intimate partner, are common circumstances preceding suicides, homicides, and homicide-suicides (i.e., suicide after homicide). These findings support the potential value of programs that help improve communication skills, social problem-solving, conflict resolution, and individual coping skills. [...] Furthermore, primary prevention strategies designed to teach skills that reduce aggressive behavior toward others and improve social skills, emotional well-being and self-esteem can be targeted toward preadolescents and early adolescents before violent behaviors and patterns begin (8,9). Many universal school-based prevention programs have been found to reduce youth violence (9). These programs focus on promoting positive development of children and adolescents with a goal of creating long-term reductions in violence.

Use of alcohol and other substances often precedes both self-directed and interpersonal violent behavior (4,10–13). Intoxication can increase impulsivity (14), which has been linked to suicidal behavior (15) and aggression (16). Intoxication can also reduce physical control and awareness of surrounding risks making individuals more vulnerable to victimization (17). Even though information on alcohol and drug use in NVDRS was limited to victims and homicide-suicide perpetrators, the data still provide some evidence that violence prevention efforts might benefit from strategies intended to prevent and reduce alcohol and other substance abuse.

[...]

Financial distress was also a common factor preceding death both from suicide and homicide. In addition, many homicides were precipitated by robberies and burglaries, criminal activities that have been found to be more common among those who are receiving low wages or are unemployed (19). [...]

In addition to demonstrating the importance of addressing individual stressors, a focus on broader factors, such as those stressors occurring at the community or society level, are needed. For example, escalating interpersonal and intimate partner problems often preceded the violent death. These findings underscore the importance of addressing contextual factors that condone or support the use of violence as a means of resolving conflict. For example, social and economic conditions within communities can create inequities in the distribution of and access to resources and opportunities, which can create community conflict and violence. Strategies that provide residents in distressed communities with better access to services that help reduce the stressors that exacerbate violence can be explored for effectiveness. Strategies that help communities plan, implement, and monitor prevention activities that are based on the best available evidence can facilitate prevention. [...]

Things to think about.

143 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:25:55pm

Anyone here play Dead Island?

144 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:28:45pm
145 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:30:22pm

Bernstein

146 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:31:34pm

re: #141 EmmaAnne

I am perplexed by the idea that California has strong gun control or really any gun control. I lived in Los Angeles and owned a handgun, and I never had to register it and I wasn't required to have a safe or a trigger lock or any training or . . . anything. What is this gun control of which these people speak.

When did you live in LA?

There is no weapon registration, but you do need a Handguns Safety Card to buy a new handgun in CA. CA limits buyers to one new handgun a month and LA City broadens that to any handgun, new or used/consigned. LA also has a ban on the sale of ultra compact handguns and accessories for ultra compacts. LA requires that you keep your gun locked up either in a safe or with a trigger lock, and that you report any sales or losses of weapons within a short period of time. If your gun is stolen, you don't report it and it's used in a crime the LA prosecutor will come after you. If it's stolen and it comes out that you didn't have it locked up, you're open to prosecution.

This may not sound like much, but it's far stricter than most other places in the nation except Chicago and DC.

147 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:32:42pm

re: #140 Kragar

Fried Twinkies.

Grounds for a Mistrial.

And in Zombieland, Woody Harrelson's charecter finally found Twinkies at a Fried Twinky stand in an amusement park in California where he needed guns to stop the zombie hoard.


I did! I refudiated all liberal arguments and completed the Vindication of All Cranks!

///Entirely kidding

148 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:33:29pm

re: #145 Gus

Bernstein

Woodward

149 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:34:32pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

Woodward

Hoffman

150 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:34:46pm

re: #143 Kragar

Anyone here play Dead Island?

My 9 year old has. Do you have a question?

151 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:35:46pm

re: #150 prairiefire

My 9 year old has. Do you have a question?

Its on Steam for $6 today, thinking I might give it a try.

152 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:35:57pm

That concerto is primo.

153 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:37:59pm

re: #144 Gus

Nice. Here's something a little less well known but I love it lots.

154 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:38:21pm

CA also has the strictest magazine capacity ban in the nation, though in application it's currently difficult to enforce. Magazines with a capacity greater than 10 nominally cannot be bought, sold, or possessed by anybody except police. The loophole is if you possessed the magazine in California before the ban went into effect. If you moved here after the ban went into effect you can't own them at all, but the State has to go back and establish when you moved. Hi capacity mags cannot be inherited, if a legal owner of a high capacity magazine dies the magazine must be immediately surrendered to an FFL, law enforcement, or shipped out of state.

155 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:38:21pm

re: #151 Kragar

Its on Steam for $6 today, thinking I might give it a try.

He says it's a free roam and you can get multiple weapons and add mods to the weapons. There are a lot of quests. He thinks it's worth $6.

156 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:43:12pm

re: #153 William Barnett-Lewis

Nice. Here's something a little less well known but I love it lots.

[Embedded content]

Stravinsky's well known of course.

157 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:50:29pm

re: #156 Gus

Stravinsky's well known of course.

I find more know of Stravinsky than they do his work, especially mid period Neo-Classical like that Concerto.

158 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:50:56pm

re: #154 goddamnedfrank

The failure or ineffectiveness of gun regulation is frequently used as a rationale to argue against gun laws in the first place.

Of course one has to wonder if the effectual 'teeth' of a gun law were watered down by the gun nuts in the first place.

159 EmmaAnne  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:51:55pm

re: #146 goddamnedfrank

There is no weapon registration, but you do need a Handguns Safety Card to buy a new handgun in CA. CA limits buyers to one new handgun a month and LA City broadens that to any handgun, new or used/consigned. LA also has a ban on the sale of ultra compact handguns and accessories for ultra compacts. LA requires that you keep your gun locked up either in a safe or with a trigger lock, and that you report any sales or losses of weapons within a short period of time.

Thanks for filling me in. Most of this happened after I left per this article:
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

160 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:52:07pm

re: #157 William Barnett-Lewis

I find more know of Stravinsky than they do his work, especially mid period Neo-Classical like that Concerto.

Would make sense.

161 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 8:57:01pm

"This IS Ceti Alpha V!"

Thank you, Syfy, for showing some real scifi, if only for a day.

162 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:03:32pm

re: #161 Targetpractice

Did they do some special programming today?

163 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:04:30pm

re: #162 freetoken

Did they do some special programming today?

Guessing by the comment they're at least showing Wrath of Khan.

Unless there's some MST3K version of it that I don't know about...

164 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:05:41pm

re: #163 Four More Tears

I checked - they're doing a Star Trek movie marathon.

Well, good for them, but just about anybody who wants to see a Star Trek movie has a zillion possible outlets to find them.

166 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:07:36pm

I don't even bother checking out SyFy anymore, as they have gone so far off the original course that I just can't relate to what they show now.

Their own productions are all cookie cutter fantasies now, aimed at the young adult audience - which means their shows' casts tend all to be just a few years older than the target marks buyers of the advertisers products.

167 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:07:53pm

re: #158 Kronocide

The failure or ineffectiveness of gun regulation is frequently used as a rationale to argue against gun laws in the first place.

Of course one has to wonder if the effectual 'teeth' of a gun law were watered down by the gun nuts in the first place.

There's also legitimate constitutional issues that result in the compromises. I'm not sure if anybody's challenged the no inheritance aspect of the CA hi cap mag and assault weapons bans, but eventually those laws will see their day in court.

There's also a loophole for retired cops, who are allowed to keep after they quit/retire any high capacity magazines bought during the time they were employed as sworn officers.

168 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:08:56pm

re: #165 Gus

One of my favorite major Romantic compositions, when I'm in the mood for such things.

These days I'm stuck on this

169 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:13:07pm

re: #166 freetoken

I don't even bother checking out SyFy anymore, as they have gone so far off the original course that I just can't relate to what they show now.

Their own productions are all cookie cutter fantasies now, aimed at the young adult audience - which means their shows' casts tend all to be just a few years older than the target marks buyers of the advertisers products.

I stopped watching about the time they turned every Saturday into a shlock-fest, composed of nothing but bad b-movies that only they bother showing, most produced by them.

170 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:15:07pm

Sooo creepy.

Exclusive: Corrupt Apple Store Employees Come Forward Across America

If you were a hot chick getting files moved, guarantee that your files were getting looked through for pictures and video.

171 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:19:45pm

Here's an example that shows how easy the CA high capacity magazine ban is to subvert. It's legal to sell disassembled magazines as "kits." The idea is that these parts kits are only supposed to be used to repair legally owned high capacity magazines for owners who had them in state before the ban went into effect.

However I've heard of certain gun shops and web sites selling as kits high capacity magazine models that weren't produced until after the ban went into effect. Meaning no civilian with the exception of a recently retired police officer could already be in legal possession of such a magazine needing repair.

172 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:20:25pm

re: #169 Targetpractice

I stopped watching about the time they turned every Saturday into a shlock-fest, composed of nothing but bad b-movies that only they bother showing, most produced by them.

I recently watched a bit of TV for the first time in years. I ended up watching Goodfellas, which was probably one of the last things I watched 8 years ago. Nothing else of interest.

173 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:21:17pm

"America is such a violent nation! We sell so much violence in games, movies, and music! It needs to stop!"

If they think America's violent, then they better avoid Japan at all costs. The Hunger Games? Look up Battle Royale. There's a reason that the manga version is only solid in stores wrapped in plastic. Like an increasing number of Japanese manga sold these days.

174 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:22:14pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

I recently watched a bit of TV for the first time in years. I ended up watching Goodfellas, which was probably one of the last things I watched 8 years ago. Nothing else of interest.

Oh KT..Expand your universe.. :)

175 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:28:39pm

re: #166 freetoken

I don't even bother checking out SyFy anymore, as they have gone so far off the original course that I just can't relate to what they show now.

Their own productions are all cookie cutter fantasies now, aimed at the young adult audience - which means their shows' casts tend all to be just a few years older than the target marks buyers of the advertisers products.

Sharkasaurus-Dinosharkus-Crocktopus-Octosaurus-Dinocroc-Crocodino-Megashark Attacks!.

176 darthstar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:29:04pm

This is why I think I married the best woman in the world.

Image: 32432_10151328272523024_2078445741_n.jpg

(Don't worry...I'll do some shoveling in the morning.)

177 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:29:28pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

KT, Merry Christmas to you! And the frogs, too!

178 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:30:40pm

re: #168 freetoken

One of my favorite major Romantic compositions, when I'm in the mood for such things.

These days I'm stuck on this

[Embedded content]

Sounds good. Was killing my connx for a sec. All clear.

179 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:32:53pm
180 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:35:44pm

re: #177 Dancing along the light of day

KT, Merry Christmas to you! And the frogs, too!

You are the best..Merry Christmas and welcome to the end of the world.

181 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:35:51pm

I have two favorite Christmas songs:

I think of it as a gospel according to Shawn, and my real favorite,

182 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:35:52pm
183 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:37:52pm

re: #177 Dancing along the light of day

KT, Merry Christmas to you! And the frogs, too!

Merry Christmas!

184 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:38:41pm

re: #180 A Man for all Seasons

You are the best..Merry Christmas and welcome to the end of the world.

Did you go boat shopping today?

185 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:41:46pm

re: #176 darthstar

This is why I think I married the best woman in the world.

Image: 32432_10151328272523024_2078445741_n.jpg

(Don't worry...I'll do some shoveling in the morning.)

For fuck's sake, man where do you live? That's just brutal! (And I was stationed in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. I know from brutal. Hence living now in Austin.)

186 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:42:34pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Did you go boat shopping today?

No..Once I found out it wasn't the end of the world I put off all my shopping.
/

187 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:44:20pm

re: #180 A Man for all Seasons

You are the best..Merry Christmas and welcome to the end of the world.

It didn't end! Wonder what the next date prediction will be!
(We're going to party like it's 1999!)

188 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:44:28pm

Merry Christmas to the lizards who pay attention to such things.

189 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:44:39pm

re: #182 Gus

Vera Lynn - We'll Meet Again

[Embedded content]

Wasn't that the last song on Dr. Strangelove?

190 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:44:50pm

Wayne Lapierre's Christmas list.

Guns
Ammo
Subscription to Guns and Ammo

191 Gus  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:45:13pm

re: #189 austin_blue

Wasn't that the last song on Dr. Strangelove?

Yep.

192 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:45:30pm

re: #189 austin_blue

Went to see the Austin Lights tonight.
WHAT A ZOO!

193 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:48:32pm

re: #187 Dancing along the light of day

It didn't end! Wonder what the next date prediction will be!
(We're going to party like it's 1999!)

Give me a red corvette.
Hope you are well

194 darthstar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:51:35pm

re: #185 austin_blue

For fuck's sake, man where do you live? That's just brutal! (And I was stationed in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. I know from brutal. Hence living now in Austin.)

This is the driveway at our ski cabin in Lake Tahoe. We've had about three feet of snow since Thursday. Another two to three feet before Monday. Tomorrow I dig the car out.

195 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:53:59pm

re: #192 Dancing along the light of day

Went to see the Austin Lights tonight.
WHAT A ZOO!

Yes. Yes it is. I'm almost a mile east of Zilker Park, where the Trail of Lights is, and two blocks of Barton Springs Road (the main access road to said entertainment).

The world parks in my neighborhood.

196 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:56:06pm

re: #194 darthstar

This is the driveway at our ski cabin in Lake Tahoe. We've had about three feet of snow since Thursday. Another two to three feet before Monday. Tomorrow I dig the car out.

Sweet ham and mothers! Please don't eat your neighbors.

197 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:57:39pm

re: #196 austin_blue

Sweet ham and mothers! Please don't eat your neighbors.

He's been staying busy in the office writing a novel with an old typewriter.

198 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:57:59pm

re: #195 austin_blue

I think we did!

199 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:59:16pm

Midnight, CST. Night all. Sweet scaly dreams.

200 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:59:50pm

re: #197 Mich-again

He's been staying busy in the office writing a novel with an old typewriter.

Does Kathy Bates stand over him, telling him how she's his biggest fan?

//

201 darthstar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 10:00:39pm

re: #197 Mich-again

He's been staying busy in the office writing a novel with an old typewriter.

Actually, I was putting up 'closed' signs and being a human stop sign to keep people from skiing into avalanche control zones. The pros probably threw sixty two-pound charges today - and we were just keeping the mountain safe...not trying to take it back from the storm. Tomorrow will be another avy day...I'm taking it off to ski with my wife. I worked my ass off today running signs and setting up boundaries.

202 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:05:38pm

Just some random comments in a Freeper gun thread. The gun nuts are warning of waging a war against policemen. Good thing they are so patriotic. New York Governor: Gun Confiscation on the Table

Bloomberg would be condemning many Leos to an early death in such an undertaking

Will we discover what an IED will do to a Crown Vic?
(That's a hint to all the skin-head, bloused-booted badge heavy thugs in NY who are going to start going door to door...)

Field roll out is going to be a bloody, messy cluster fornication.

the 2nd amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting

If they don't shoot any better than NYC police we have absolutely nothing to worry about.

203 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:07:09pm
204 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:11:00pm

re: #202 Mich-again

Just some random comments in a Freeper gun thread. The gun nuts are warning of waging a war against policemen. Good thing they are so patriotic. New York Governor: Gun Confiscation on the Table

Remember, the Homeland Security report stating right wing militia groups in the US were the biggest threat to domestic security was nothing but a pack of vile lies.
///

205 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:11:28pm

re: #202 Mich-again

Just some random comments in a Freeper gun thread. The gun nuts are warning of waging a war against policemen. Good thing they are so patriotic. New York Governor: Gun Confiscation on the Table

Because domestic terrorism apparently is okay so long as you declare that you're the victim.///

206 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:13:25pm

This is just an awful lot of fun, from a composer who's mostly forgotten these days. I knew someone who studied with him, years & years ago.

Boris Blacher Concertante Musik, Op. 10.

207 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:14:48pm

re: #204 Kragar

re: #205 Targetpractice

Wayne LaPierre's Sock Puppet Brigade.

208 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:16:30pm

Not sure if this is going to get a lot play, but I got wingnuts now trying to push the idea that "Plan B" failed not because the GOP would rather watch the country burn than be seen as voting for tax increases on the wealthy, but because Reid and Obama declaring "Plan B" had no future convinced them not to vote for a tax increase on the wealthy.

209 Kragar  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:24:43pm

Irony:

The same groups which 20 years ago worked themselves into fits of epileptic rage over a rap song called "Cop Killer" are now freely discussing terrorist attacks on cops.

210 freetoken  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:35:56pm

Just because:

211 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:37:24pm

re: #209 Kragar

Irony:

The same groups which 20 years ago worked themselves into fits of epileptic rage over a rap song called "Cop Killer" are now freely discussing terrorist attacks on cops.

I'm not exactly sure how killing a bunch of cops and innocent bystanders while screaming "We're the victims here!!" is going to help their argument that people have no reason to fear "responsible gun owners."

212 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 22, 2012 11:38:40pm

re: #209 Kragar

Irony:

The same groups which 20 years ago worked themselves into fits of epileptic rage over a rap song called "Cop Killer" are now freely discussing terrorist attacks on cops.

Dude, they did that with Common.

Last year.

No need to go that far back.

214 researchok  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 12:17:28am

Morning, all

215 researchok  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 12:28:17am

re: #203 freetoken

Nice-I hadn't heard that before.

The link below won't load/play

216 freetoken  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 12:42:47am

re: #215 researchok

Which one is "the link below"? AFAIK none of them require a password.

217 freetoken  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 12:45:52am

Some songs just aren't for the weak of voice, and the following is one of them (yet some contemporary singers try it that way.) A repeat though it is, Mario Lanza demonstrates his pipes well, and the tempo is a good one too (also missed in many later recordings):

218 researchok  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 12:46:02am

210

219 researchok  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 12:46:24am

I'm about to reboot- see if that will work

220 researchok  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:00:40am

re: #210 freetoken

Still no load/play on 210

221 researchok  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:06:19am

re: #217 freetoken

That's about as big a voice as you can find- and that is how it should be sung.

Great piece.

222 dragonath  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:14:52am

Ugh. I keep waking up in the middle of the night.

Here's a insane article from the "thoughtful" conservatives over at the National Review, in which Obama is compared to terrorists and portrayed as the stealth Moozlamic Marxist he really is:

There is only one way to deal with a leftist revolutionary like Obama

Hint: shut down the government. Vive la Resistance!

We are already over the cliff. The public has seen fit to reelect as president a hard-nosed movement leftist who revels in chaos. For Obama, spending, which expands his taker-base, can never be high enough, so taxes will always have to rise.

Yeah, keep calling half the country "takers". It worked so well for Romney.

Obama is openly colluding with Islamist regimes — Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar — to show Assad the door and install the Brotherhood.

In fact, weapons falling into the wrong hands was precisely the outcome of Obama’s Libya catastrophe. There, the president joined with Sunni Islamists to overthrow a regime that, though unsavory, was cooperating with the United States.

That's right, France is a country of Sunni Islamists.

Outside of Washington, the similarities between the mess Obama’s Islamist-empowerment strategy made of Libya...

BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI!!

223 freetoken  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:25:28am

re: #220 researchok

Strange - don't know why you'd have problems with it. You might have to check the source code and copy the address manually.

224 freetoken  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:27:00am

re: #222 dragonath

It's Andrew McCarthy - you should expect idiocy at the WND level.

225 freetoken  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:28:00am

re: #221 researchok

Speaking of big voices, here is an even bigger one, Mahalia Jackson, singing it like she means it:

226 Jimmah  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 4:15:54am

Just a quick hello this morning, as ice and I are about to go out to celebrate our third wedding anniversary! Hope you are all having a great day :)

227 Usually refered to as anyways  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 4:18:54am

re: #226 Jimmah

Just a quick hello this morning, as ice and I are about to go out to celebrate our third wedding anniversary! Hope you are all having a great day :)

[Embedded content]

Congratulations to you both, what's the chance of a white Christmas.

228 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 4:20:05am

re: #226 Jimmah

Happy Anniversary. And a Happy Christmas. :)

229 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 5:29:13am

re: #226 Jimmah

Just a quick hello this morning, as ice and I are about to go out to celebrate our third wedding anniversary! Hope you are all having a great day :)

[Embedded content]

May your anniversary be joyous, and may your Christmas be merry.

230 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 5:50:46am

re: #226 Jimmah

Just a quick hello this morning, as ice and I are about to go out to celebrate our third wedding anniversary! Hope you are all having a great day :)

[Embedded content]

Happy anniversary. My only regret is not marrying my boo boo sooner.

231 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:01:35am

So, I got to thinking about this issue last night, and wondered how we as a nation could think that having assault weapons in the hands of the masses makes people safer. After all, those assault weapons provide criminals with the means to kill law enforcement officers (their bullet proof vests do little to stop the firepower of those assault weapons ammo - it would take ceramic inserts/body armor).

No one is calling for confiscation of weapons, but could it be possible to ban sales going forward - grandfathering in the existing weapons, but eliminate all future transactions. In other words, the current owners of the weapons are the last owners of those weapons. No future sales, transfers, etc. At the end, those people will be compensated for the property, and this class of firearms is taken out of circulation over time.

Of course, the gun nuts will say that's confiscation and violates their rights, but what of the rights of everyone else?

Black market sales will still occur, and will still be illegal, but it would reduce the size of the market/potential market over time. You might see an initial spike before the law takes effect, but the overall result would be reduction over time.

Nancy Lanza had one of these kinds of weapons. It didn't save her. In fact, having that weapon was the proximate cause of her death (along with everyone else at the school).

232 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:01:58am

Well. I just watched the video that is at the top of this page, not only is it totally creepy but now I have that awful song running around loose in my head.

233 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:04:00am

re: #231 lawhawk

So, I got to thinking about this issue last night, and wondered how we as a nation could think that having assault weapons in the hands of the masses makes people safer. After all, those assault weapons provide criminals with the means to kill law enforcement officers (their bullet proof vests do little to stop the firepower of those assault weapons ammo - it would take ceramic inserts/body armor).

No one is calling for confiscation of weapons, but could it be possible to ban sales going forward - grandfathering in the existing weapons, but eliminate all future transactions. In other words, the current owners of the weapons are the last owners of those weapons. No future sales, transfers, etc. At the end, those people will be compensated for the property, and this class of firearms is taken out of circulation over time.

Of course, the gun nuts will say that's confiscation and violates their rights, but what of the rights of everyone else?

Black market sales will still occur, and will still be illegal, but it would reduce the size of the market/potential market over time. You might see an initial spike before the law takes effect, but the overall result would be reduction over time.

Nancy Lanza had one of these kinds of weapons. It didn't save her. In fact, having that weapon was the proximate cause of her death (along with everyone else at the school).

I think the courts would strike such a law down as an unconstitutional infringement on the property rights of the gun owners.

234 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:08:55am

re: #231 lawhawk

Also, in terms of armor for stopping weapons fire, I know a good bit about this and would like to respond:

Police very rarely face rifle fire of any sort. In the great majority of cases where police are fired on the weapon is a handgun, which standard Level III body armor worn by police will stop. Frankly, police safety really isn't a justification for banning semi-auto rifles, since they are not a notable risk to law enforcement.

235 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:15:49am

re: #234 Dark_Falcon

Far more cops are killed by handguns. Again, every cop I know would like to see handguns banned for private use, or incredibly tightly regulated.

236 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:16:17am

re: #231 lawhawk

While I can sympathize with yout thoughts to a certain degree, without an amendment, such a law would not be constitutional. So long as the language of the 2nd is in force, banning a class of firearms won't fly. This is why I've talked of, instead, expanding the scope of weapons regulated under the NFA.

Have you seen the letter I sent to the Vice President last week?

237 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:20:10am

re: #235 Obdicut

Far more cops are killed by handguns. Again, every cop I know would like to see handguns banned for private use, or incredibly tightly regulated.

I am presuming you live in a larger urban area? Because here, where it can take the police 20 minutes to arrive after your 911 call, none of the police I know feel that way.

The urban/rural divide is a far more critical factor in understanding this issue than most people seem to want to give it.

238 Lidane  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:23:42am

Looks like the RWNJs are taking Piers Morgan's recent broadcasts in a calm, rational manner:

Gun Advocates Ask Obama Administration to Deport Piers Morgan

Thousands of gun rights supporters are petitioning the Obama administration to consider deporting CNN’s Piers Morgan, arguing the gun control proponent is using his position as a TV news host to wage war on the Second Amendment.

“British Citizen and CNN television host Piers Morgan is engaged in a hostile attack against the U.S. Constitution by targeting the Second Amendment,” reads the petition. “We demand that Mr. Morgan be deported immediately for his effort to undermine the Bill of Rights and for exploiting his position as a national network television host to stage attacks against the rights of American citizens.”

239 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:24:06am

re: #237 William Barnett-Lewis

I am presuming you live in a larger urban area? Because here, where it can take the police 20 minutes to arrive after your 911 call, none of the police I know feel that way.

No, even the rural cops I know feel this way, in Northern California, rural Connecticut, and Wyoming.

Edit: Though the cop I know in Wyoming is, in fact, Federal, so he's probably not truly rural.

I'm not even sure what you mean by the police taking 20 minutes to arrive; why is that relevant to wanting people to have shotguns rather than handguns for the unlikely occurrence of having to deter someone with a gun?

The urban/rural divide is a far more critical factor in understanding this issue than most people seem to want to give it.

I think it's made far too much of, and in addition, the number of actually rural people is much smaller than people think.

Edit: About 16% of the US lives in rural areas.

240 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:29:57am

re: #238 Lidane

Derpy Derp was all over that one. (Jim Hoft)

241 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:34:32am

re: #238 Lidane

Looks like the RWNJs are taking Piers Morgan's recent broadcasts in a calm, rational manner:

Gun Advocates Ask Obama Administration to Deport Piers Morgan

First Amendment to the United States Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Bolding mine. If you would defend the 2nd Amendment, you must also defend the 1st. Otherwise, you're just a dishonest weasel.

242 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:34:41am

I'll need to be leaving for church soon, but to answer your questions on shotgun vs handgun for home defense - the two primary factors are length and recoil. It's much more difficult to manuver safely in confinded spaces and the recoil of a shotgun means that it requires more training to safely and correctly employ. Despite Hollywood, you can't just point a shotgun in the target's general direction. I doubt you really need a text book on tactical shotgun but there is more to it and it's harder to properly train for than the use of police style service revolvers.

243 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:37:36am

re: #238 Lidane

The derp is so huge in that one, words fail me.

244 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:39:22am

re: #242 William Barnett-Lewis

That's not really much of an argument. You need to train with the weapon either way. And again, home defense is such a statistical improbability anyway that people worrying about it is kinda silly. The chance of it happening is extremely low, the chance of it happening and some dude who knows how to use a gun relatively okay successfully defending himself are even lower. Guns are good targets for burglary, and they sell well; having a gun in your house makes you a bigger target if people know about it.

An alarm system is actually a much better deterrent.

245 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:40:18am

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

The NRA similarly was calling for restrictions on the 1st Amendment (calling out media, video games, etc.), which on its plain language would not have any restrictions at all, while saying that no restrictions are possible on the 2d, even though on its face, it allows regulation.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The NRA and LaPierre are a bunch of dishonest weasels. Ignore that Hollywood and media are a reflection of what's going on in society, but impose restrictions on speech while allowing unfettered access to firearms.

246 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:42:33am

I'd like to buy an espresso/cappuccino machine, I've noticed that the prices can start at under $100 and go all the way up to $5000!

Can anyone recommend a "starter" pump machine that's less than $200? I'm undecided between the Delonghi and the Capresso.

247 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:44:12am

re: #246 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Delonghi is a good brand that makes quality stuff. I've owned several Delonghi things and never had a problem with any of them.

248 dragonath  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:44:27am

Gallup, this morning:

Obama Approval - 58% (+2)

*pop* *pop* *pop*

249 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:45:36am

re: #245 lawhawk

The NRA similarly was calling for restrictions on the 1st Amendment (calling out media, video games, etc.), which on its plain language would not have any restrictions at all, while saying that no restrictions are possible on the 2d, even though on its face, it allows regulation.

The NRA and LaPierre are a bunch of dishonest weasels. Ignore that Hollywood and media are a reflection of what's going on in society, but impose restrictions on speech while allowing unfettered access to firearms.

The media may reflect what is going on in society, but Hollywood can be a different story. The movies are more likely to be what their makers think is going on or what they want to happen.

250 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:48:23am

re: #246 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

DeLonghi EC155 is well rated by Consumer Reports (and compares favorably to models that are far more expensive). They didn't review the Capresso.

251 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:49:31am

re: #247 Obdicut

Delonghi is a good brand that makes quality stuff. I've owned several Delonghi things and never had a problem with any of them.

when we were in Israel we had cappuccinos for breakfast every day and at every little coffee shop and we just loved it!

I'm only a beginner at this so I don't want a machine that requires a lot of preparation or swapping out parts.

252 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:52:03am

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

Again, there's a disconnect between what's going on in our society and the media (Hollywood, video games) and how it corresponds to gun violence. We export our movies and video games around the world, and yet the violence here due to firearms is beyond what other countries experience.

In fact, South Korea and the Dutch spend far more on video games, and yet there's little to no gun violence there. Other countries are voracious in their appetite for Hollywood flicks, but they don't have the gun violence we have here.

There's something peculiar to the American experience that can explain that.

253 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 6:57:44am

The NRA fights for the right of Americans to wage an insurrection against tyrannical forces. Good luck with that even with your arsenal from Walmart.

254 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 7:01:56am

re: #238 Lidane

Looks like the RWNJs are taking Piers Morgan's recent broadcasts in a calm, rational manner:

Gun Advocates Ask Obama Administration to Deport Piers Morgan

These fucking people. Seriously???! "Love it or leave it" is the best they can do when somebody calls them stupid? IFN YEW DONT LAHK IT GET THE HAIL OUT! GO BACK TO AFERCA YUROP!

255 dragonath  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 7:04:01am

re: #254 Pawn of the Oppressor

These fucking people. Seriously???! "Love it or leave it" is the best they can do when somebody calls them stupid? IFN YEW DONT LAHK IT GET THE HAIL OUT! GO BACK TO AFERCA YUROP!

There's a petition for that

STOP WHITE GENOCIDE, by halting MASSIVE third world immigration and FORCED assimilation in White countries!

256 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 7:04:37am

re: #254 Pawn of the Oppressor

These fucking people. Seriously???! "Love it or leave it" is the best they can do when somebody calls them stupid? IFN YEW DONT LAHK IT GET THE HAIL OUT! GO BACK TO AFERCA YUROP!

It's called "short-sighted stupidity". They're so fixated on the near-term threat to their guns that they are not considering the medium to long term effects of their words and deeds.

258 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 7:24:39am

re: #254 Pawn of the Oppressor

These fucking people. Seriously???! "Love it or leave it" is the best they can do when somebody calls them stupid? IFN YEW DONT LAHK IT GET THE HAIL OUT! GO BACK TO AFERCA YUROP!

"Love it or leave it" from the same people who arming themselves to take on law enforcement and the National Guard.

259 A Mom Anon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 7:42:06am

Can someone explain to me how banning military/police type weapons and ammo violates anyone's rights under the Constitution? I'm trying to figure that out. Unless you're part of law enforcement or the military, or part of that "well regulated militia"(which no longer exists because we have a standing military and police forces) then your "need"for such weapons is imaginary. I get the hobby aspect of it, but if that's your thing, then you keep the weapons at the gun range with your fellow hobbyists. I don't know what the answers are, but the proliferation of guns is a big clue as to why this horror keeps on and on. Other countries don't have this problem to the degree we do and it seems to me the biggest difference is our easy access to guns.

260 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 7:52:17am

re: #259 A Mom Anon

Can someone explain to me how banning military/police type weapons and ammo violates anyone's rights under the Constitution? I'm trying to figure that out. Unless you're part of law enforcement or the military, or part of that "well regulated militia"(which no longer exists because we have a standing military and police forces) then your "need"for such weapons is imaginary. I get the hobby aspect of it, but if that's your thing, then you keep the weapons at the gun range with your fellow hobbyists. I don't know what the answers are, but the proliferation of guns is a big clue as to why this horror keeps on and on. Other countries don't have this problem to the degree we do and it seems to me the biggest difference is our easy access to guns.

The handguns that police and the military use are the same kind as used by civilians. In fact, high capacity 9mm pistols were sold to civilians prior to the US Army adopting the M9 (Beretta Model 90F). So you'd be banned something because of who lawfully adopted it later.

As for ammo, most military ammo is Full Metal Jacket (FMJ), and the military is barred from using expending or fragmenting ammo by treaty.

261 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:00:55am

re: #259 A Mom Anon


Define "well regulated". Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different lines of where that regulation is. One could say that background checks, waiting periods and registration is "well regulated". Someone else would say that goes too far. Another would posture that it doesn't go far enough

Same holds for "militia". As you stated, "we have a standing military and police forces". Others don't view that as a "militia".

262 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:01:12am

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

The handguns that police and the military use are the same kind as used by civilians. In fact, high capacity 9mm pistols were sold to civilians prior to the US Army adopting the M9 (Beretta Model 90F). So you'd be banned something because of who lawfully adopted it later.

As for ammo, most military ammo is Full Metal Jacket (FMJ), and the military is barred from using expending or fragmenting ammo by treaty.

As for things like armor piercing ammo, that is already illegal for civilians to own in any caliber used in a handgun (which includes the most common intermediate rifle calibers of 5.56x45, and 7.62x39). Large caliber rifle cartridges such as .50 BMG can still punch through body armor, but those are used for criminal purposes less often than .22 rimfire (don't believe Hollywood on this score, criminals don't use .50 cal rifles).

BBL

263 darthstar  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:02:19am

Mornin' everyone. Sitting in bed drinking coffee and listening to bombs going off outside my window. Such a pleasant experience in the context of skiing. Another 22" fell last night. Road by our house is being closed for avalanche control...should hear the Howitzer going off soon...such a pretty sound. No ski patrol for me today though. I need to dig the car out. My wife actually dug it out last night, but I just looked and again it just looks like a white lump in the driveway...ahh, the Howitzer just went off. It makes a much different sound than the 2lb dynamite charges the patrollers are tossing by hand up on the ridge...a really sharp crack.

264 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:04:21am

re: #263 darthstar
Cool

We used to go by Tuckerman Ravine in the NH White Mountains to watch them blast away

265 makeitstop  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:07:09am

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

The handguns that police and the military use are the same kind as used by civilians. In fact, high capacity 9mm pistols were sold to civilians prior to the US Army adopting the M9 (Beretta Model 90F). So you'd be banned something because of who lawfully adopted it later.

As for ammo, most military ammo is Full Metal Jacket (FMJ), and the military is barred from using expending or fragmenting ammo by treaty.

I think Mom is talking about assault rifles, which you seem to have avoided mentioning.

I agree with her in that instance.

A couple of years ago, the guy who lived a few doors down on my street decided to celebrate 4th of July by buying a case full of 3" mortars and setting them off in the middle of the street for two days straight. He ended up blowing his arm off at the shoulder and damn near killed himself.

My feeling is this: Buy all the shotguns and six-shooters you want, and God bless you. But semi-autos, no. We civilians should get to play with the firecrackers, bottle rockets and sparklers and leave the pro-grade stuff to the pros. That way, no asshole with a fascination for big, loud explosions won't get the opportunity to blow his arm off.

266 darthstar  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:08:49am
267 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:12:11am

re: #266 darthstar

And all the rest would be members of the mafia.

268 darthstar  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:12:44am

re: #264 sattv4u2

Cool

We used to go by Tuckerman Ravine in the NH White Mountains to watch them blast away

We never stopped yesterday. Didn't get the lower mountain open until almost 11am, and still had to do partial closures throughout the day as we had to blow slide zones within the area boundary - we have over 300 such slopes identified.

269 darthstar  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:13:26am

re: #267 lawhawk

And all the rest would be members of the mafia.

I'm okay with the mafia picking my corn.

270 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:14:52am

re: #269 darthstar

Just as long as you maintain the vig. /

271 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:17:33am

re: #268 darthstar

We never stopped yesterday. Didn't get the lower mountain open until almost 11am, and still had to do partial closures throughout the day as we had to blow slide zones within the area boundary - we have over 300 such slopes identified.

Really weren't supposed to ski Tuckermans until after avalanche season. Those that do do it under their own peril. You have to hike up to ski and there have been about a dozen deaths over the years

272 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:17:35am

guns = tools

^NRA logic

273 darthstar  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:18:21am
274 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:20:13am

NRA = tools

^ my logic

275 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:21:42am

NRA chief: If putting armed police in schools is crazy, 'then call me crazy'

Guns in schools didn't prevent Va. Tech or Columbine. They didn't hasten the end of either massacre either. Both ended only when the gunmen committed suicide - and in both cases they had sufficient ammo and weapons to continue their carnage for a significant amount of time.

Neither died because the good guys had guns. It was the bad guy blowing their own brains out that did.

But that means we should have armed guards at all schools - as if that's sufficient deterrent. Moreover, it's not as though gunmen don't commit rampages at all manner of public and private venue.

276 Gus  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:21:55am

David A. Keene - President, National Rifle Association

David M. Keen - Son of NRA President

Road rage shooter [David M. Keene] has history of emotional problems

David Michael Keene, the prominent national conservative activist's son charged in a road rage shooting on the George Washington Memorial Parkway, was institutionalized with "severe emotional problems" seven times between the ages of 8 and 13, his mother said Tuesday.

"He's had a continuing problem with impulse control, and an exaggerated belief that he was in more danger than he was in at times, causing him to respond in a way that was more excessive or out of line with what was going on," Keene's mother, Diana Carr, told reporters outside the U.S. District Court in Alexandria.

Keene, 21, was arrested Dec. 4. U.S. Park Police Detective Todd Reid told the court a Silver Spring man was driving his Mercedes-Benz north on the parkway on Dec. 1 when Keene, driving a BMW, cut the man off. The man sped up and cut back in front of Keene. Keene then pulled alongside the Mercedes and fired one shot near Route 123, Reid said.

Police said the bullet lodged in the driver's side seat, inches from the driver's head. Keene was charged with using a firearm during a violent crime.

Continues.

277 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:22:42am

re: #273 darthstar

Mosque arsonist: "I only know what I hear on Fox News"

Yeah, what was that saying going around a few months ago?

"Universal flaw: Stupidity actually does hurt, it's just the wrong people that feel the pain."

278 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:23:59am

re: #268 darthstar

heh. Been years (okay ,, DECADES) since I attempted to ski Tuckermans

I had forgotten just how steep the slope was

Tuckerman Ravine has many different runs that span the bowl, all as steep as 40 to 55 degrees
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes,, there was a lot of alcohol involved. Why do you ask !?!?!?!

279 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:24:17am

re: #275 lawhawk

NRA chief: If putting armed police in schools is crazy, 'then call me crazy'

Guns in schools didn't prevent Va. Tech or Columbine. They didn't hasten the end of either massacre either. Both ended only when the gunmen committed suicide - and in both cases they had sufficient ammo and weapons to continue their carnage for a significant amount of time.

Neither died because the good guys had guns. It was the bad guy blowing their own brains out that did.

But that means we should have armed guards at all schools - as if that's sufficient deterrent. Moreover, it's not as though gunmen don't commit rampages at all manner of public and private venue.

I truly do expect at this rate that the next time a school gets shot up, and after the guard is neutralized and teachers killed, the gun cultists will simply declare louder that if the teachers had been armed, this wouldn't have happened.

280 A Mom Anon  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:25:01am

re: #265 makeitstop

I should have been clearer. I did mean assault/automatic style weapons. The Aurora CO shooter had a 100 round drum in his arsenal. Um, who the hell needs that laying around the house for self protection? High capacity magazines and drums have no place in our society, those are tools of WAR. Period. Have your shotguns and pistols, I'm actually not averse to that. But this other stuff has to be out of the hands of people who are not involved in military, law enforcement and certainly not in the hands of people who are not undergoing continuous training.

IMO, some film of what guns actually do to the human body might be considered as part of gun training. No Hollywood special effects,the real damage. I really think many people are far removed from the damage that our ERs and surgeons encounter on a daily basis.

281 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:28:03am

re: #280 A Mom Anon

I should have been clearer. I did mean assault/automatic style weapons. The Aurora CO shooter had a 100 round drum in his arsenal. Um, who the hell needs that laying around the house for self protection? High capacity magazines and drums have no place in our society, those are tools of WAR. Period. Have your shotguns and pistols, I'm actually not averse to that. But this other stuff has to be out of the hands of people who are not involved in military, law enforcement and certainly not in the hands of people who are not undergoing continuous training.

IMO, some film of what guns actually do to the human body might be considered as part of gun training. No Hollywood special effects,the real damage. I really think many people are far removed from the damage that our ERs and surgeons encounter on a daily basis.

The military actually advises against the usage of Beta drum magazines for precisely the same reason that Holmes got stopped by them, namely that the magazines have a tendency to jam easier due to the spring pressure involved.

282 lawhawk  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:28:57am

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

The Supreme Court ruled for regulation in Miller, and even Heller ruled that regulation isn't prohibited (Heller wouldn't preclude future regulation - only that there's an individual right to firearms). There's plenty of room for permissible regulation.

283 darthstar  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:35:09am

re: #282 lawhawk

The Supreme Court ruled for regulation in Miller, and even Heller ruled that regulation isn't prohibited (Heller wouldn't preclude future regulation - only that there's an individual right to firearms). There's plenty of room for permissible regulation.

Permissible regulation vs. irrational paranoia. We could rewrite the laws to read that no civilian weapon be allowed to carry more than five rounds and must have a loading mechanism that prevents more than one shot per second (bolt, lever, pump, etc.) and still not violate the holy scripture of the Second Amendment.

284 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:36:45am

1 blackjack dealer stabs another in Vegas
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

I'm serious when I hit the casinos and sit down at the BlackJack table,,, but I'm not THAT serious!!!

285 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:43:54am

re: #282 lawhawk

The Supreme Court ruled for regulation in Miller, and even Heller ruled that regulation isn't prohibited (Heller wouldn't preclude future regulation - only that there's an individual right to firearms). There's plenty of room for permissible regulation.

As I understand it, Heller says that banning a class of guns is dependent on whether or not they have a legal usage in the hands of civilians. Which would be difficult, but not impossible, in the case of assault rifles.

286 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:49:11am

re: #285 Targetpractice

As I understand it, Heller says that banning a class of guns is dependent on whether or not they have a legal usage in the hands of civilians. Which would be difficult, but not impossible, in the case of assault rifles.

Especially since it is/ has been being pounded in that "protection" is a legal usage.

287 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:52:20am

groan

you?

288 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:54:15am

re: #287 Holidays are Family Fun Time

groan

you?

coffee!!!

289 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:55:02am

re: #288 sattv4u2

coffee!!!

Yes! Please and Thank You. Fresh with lots of cream and sugar.

290 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:57:23am

re: #289 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Yes! Please and Thank You. Fresh with lots of cream and sugar.

Blech ,,,, do you even know what coffee tastes like??

A tiny tiny splash of cream and NO sugar

291 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:58:50am

re: #255 dragonath

There's a petition for that

STOP WHITE GENOCIDE, by halting MASSIVE third world immigration and FORCED assimilation in White countries!

WTF?

WHO are the people behind that?

292 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:59:46am

re: #273 darthstar

Mosque arsonist: "I only know what I hear on Fox News"

I posted that story here several days ago...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

293 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:00:48am

re: #290 sattv4u2

Blech ,,,, do you even know what coffee tastes like??

A tiny tiny splash of cream and NO sugar

What? Who in their right minds adds anything to fresh coffee?

294 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:01:27am

re: #293 b_sharp

What? Who in their right minds adds anything to fresh coffee?

"right mind" and "me" don't intersect very often!!

295 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:02:20am

re: #291 Holidays are Family Fun Time

WTF?

WHO are the people behind that?

Thankfully, only 480 people have signed it in a week and a half

Sadly, 480 people signed it in a week and a half

296 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:02:36am

re: #294 sattv4u2

"right mind" and "me" don't intersect very often!!

Yah, yah, that's true.

297 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:04:16am

re: #295 sattv4u2

Thankfully, only 480 people have signed it in a week and a half

Sadly, 480 people signed it in a week and a half

That petition is true insanity.

298 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:04:30am

Part of the reason we can't have a reasonable discussion about gun control is the "gun rights advocates" have spent years muzzling anybody who pointed out that guns are dangerous in the hands of amateurs:

Silencing the Science on Gun Research

The nation might be in a better position to act if medical and public health researchers had continued to study these issues as diligently as some of us did between 1985 and 1997. But in 1996, pro-gun members of Congress mounted an all-out effort to eliminate the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Although they failed to defund the center, the House of Representatives removed $2.6 million from the CDC's budget—precisely the amount the agency had spent on firearm injury research the previous year. Funding was restored in joint conference committee, but the money was earmarked for traumatic brain injury. The effect was sharply reduced support for firearm injury research.

To ensure that the CDC and its grantees got the message, the following language was added to the final appropriation: “none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

Precisely what was or was not permitted under the clause was unclear. But no federal employee was willing to risk his or her career or the agency's funding to find out. Extramural support for firearm injury prevention research quickly dried up. Even today, 17 years after this legislative action, the CDC's website lacks specific links to information about preventing firearm-related violence.

When other agencies funded high-quality research, similar action was taken. In 2009, Branas et al published the results of a case-control study that examined whether carrying a gun increases or decreases the risk of firearm assault. In contrast to earlier research, this particular study was funded by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Two years later, Congress extended the restrictive language it had previously applied to the CDC to all Department of Health and Human Services agencies, including the National Institutes of Health.

299 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:05:05am

re: #297 b_sharp

That petition is true insanity.

signed by people that put LOTS of drugs stuff in their coffee, no doubt

300 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:07:11am

re: #298 Targetpractice

Part of the reason we can't have a reasonable discussion about gun control is the "gun rights advocates" have spent years muzzling anybody who pointed out that guns are dangerous in the hands of amateurs:

Silencing the Science on Gun Research

Legislated ignorance.

301 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:08:31am

re: #299 sattv4u2

signed by people that put LOTS of drugs stuff in their coffee, no doubt

Their insanity knows no bounds.

Racism is something that makes me incredibly angry.

302 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:10:55am

re: #259 A Mom Anon

Can someone explain to me how banning military/police type weapons and ammo violates anyone's rights under the Constitution? I'm trying to figure that out. Unless you're part of law enforcement or the military, or part of that "well regulated militia"(which no longer exists because we have a standing military and police forces) then your "need"for such weapons is imaginary. I get the hobby aspect of it, but if that's your thing, then you keep the weapons at the gun range with your fellow hobbyists. I don't know what the answers are, but the proliferation of guns is a big clue as to why this horror keeps on and on. Other countries don't have this problem to the degree we do and it seems to me the biggest difference is our easy access to guns.

There was an interesting thread on reddit the other day. Usually "orginialist" interpretations of what the founders envisioned are just revisionist history but I think the first comment does a decent job of interpretation

In 1791, when the 2nd amendment was truly about militias and muskets, was there any debate about gun control?

...the founders viewed armament a lot more similarly to how the Swiss view it today: an individual responsibility as part of a collective right.

So what changed? In a lot of ways, the Civil War changed things. The NRA was actually formed after the Civil War. The Civil War, and the 14th Amendment, was actually what sort of gave rise to the view of the Bill of Rights as being individual rights rather than collective ones
....
Originally, the Second Amendment was viewed much more as a collective right. The important thing was that individuals be armed as part of a group responsibility. IOW, you needed to have a gun in case you were needed to help overthrow a tyrannical government.

After the Civil War, the whole discussion about collective versus individual rights changed, and having a gun became much more about self defense. This was in direct response to the newly Reconstructed South.

Your individual state could regulate your guns, but the feds couldn't. Projecting the phrase "gun rights" back in time is really problematic, pretty much for this reason. It was somewhat common in the south for it to be illegal for Black men to own guns--even free Blacks. To a much lesser extent, the same was true for women. It wasn't so much that you had "gun rights" so much at all, since there was no thought that taking guns away from Blacks was in any way threatening the gun ownership of Whites.

There's some food for thought here. Also I might question the original meaning of "regulated". I don;t think the founders were thinking of the word in the modern sense of regulations and restrictions but may have been intended regulated in the military sense (rehearsed, practiced, chain of command, etc)

303 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:14:08am

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Also I might question the original meaning of "regulated"

See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

304 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:15:58am

Dark-
Banning a class of weapon at the federal level has already passed the test. Why? It's not a blanket ban. Fill out your forms and pay your tax, give up certain specific rights about search and you too can have a full auto gun, provided your state does not have a law against it.

The assault weapon ban will pass the big test as long as it is not a total blanket "no exceptions" ban. I for one want law enforcement and certain security guards to have them as needed. Brinks comes to mind there.

In California we have a bill proposed that we would have to buy a license and be fingerprinted in every transaction to buy ammunition. Maybe I can see that in high caliber. But in .22 short? A license to buy ammo might fail the test. The fingerporinting? Probably ok.

Oh and reloading supplies sales will increase. The inevitable result of a law aimed at the law abiding person more than the criminal like a license to buy .22

305 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:22:56am

re: #303 sattv4u2

Also I might question the original meaning of "regulated"

See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Maybe by finding what regulations they implemented after the ratification would shine some light on that. I just did a quick google search and have come up empty so far. Would think any regulation(s) they voted to put in place would pretty much match their intent of that time.

306 Gus  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:24:30am

Mitt Romney was hesitant to reveal himself
A Globe review finds many reasons for the presidential candidate’s failure, none greater than how slow he was to tell his own story
By Michael Kranish
December 23, 2012

...“He wanted to be president less than anyone I’ve met in my life. He had no desire to . . . run,” said Tagg, who worked with his mother, Ann, to persuade his father to seek the presidency...

307 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:24:59am

re: #305 Eventual Carrion

Maybe by finding what regulations they implemented after the ratification would shine some light on that. I just did a quick google search and have come up empty so far. Would think any regulation(s) they voted to put in place would pretty much match their intent of that time.

Did the same several days ago when I thought about it
Really didn't come up with anything either

308 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:26:23am

re: #306 Gus

Mitt Romney was hesitant to reveal himself
A Globe review finds many reasons for the presidential candidate’s failure, none greater than how slow he was to tell his own story
By Michael Kranish
December 23, 2012

*coubullshitgh*

309 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:29:55am

re: #259 A Mom Anon

Can someone explain to me how banning military/police type weapons and ammo violates anyone's rights under the Constitution? I'm trying to figure that out. Unless you're part of law enforcement or the military, or part of that "well regulated militia"(which no longer exists because we have a standing military and police forces) then your "need"for such weapons is imaginary. I get the hobby aspect of it, but if that's your thing, then you keep the weapons at the gun range with your fellow hobbyists. I don't know what the answers are, but the proliferation of guns is a big clue as to why this horror keeps on and on. Other countries don't have this problem to the degree we do and it seems to me the biggest difference is our easy access to guns.

Let's not fear "military" and police weapons too much. The long guns, assault guns, sure. But the police & military carry handguns that are perfectly appropriate for personal defense. Perhaps the 10 round limit should apply. But a 9mm pistol is no special threat.

There was a consensus about illegal immigration. Deport or jail the most dangerous people first. Violent felons. There is a compelling public safety first logic there.

How about we apply that logic today, with the vast existing laws to get after criminal possession? That's the most dangerous guns in the most dangerous hands off the street. No need to wait for a legislature.

Now before anyone tries to nickname me Wayne, (j/k) NOT instead of further regulations. Just before them. They will take months to debate & pass.

Existing law we have going for us right this minute. Oh and let's get a lot more serious about straw man buys in places like Arizona where lax policies stopped prosecutors.

310 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:34:43am

re: #305 Eventual Carrion

Maybe by finding what regulations they implemented after the ratification would shine some light on that. I just did a quick google search and have come up empty so far. Would think any regulation(s) they voted to put in place would pretty much match their intent of that time.

I just did the same thing. Not much information on gun regulation between ratification and the civil war. Here's a timeline that seem representative of most of the easily available info.
[Link: usgovinfo.about.com...]

It does seem there was much interest in gun control laws in the early days of the US.

311 Gus  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:41:12am

The Secret History of Guns

The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership—and regulated it. And no group has more fiercely advocated the right to bear loaded weapons in public than the Black Panthers—the true pioneers of the modern pro-gun movement. In the battle over gun rights in America, both sides have distorted history and the law, and there’s no resolution in sight.

312 Gus  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:41:48am
...In February of 1967, Oakland police officers stopped a car carrying Newton, Seale, and several other Panthers with rifles and handguns. When one officer asked to see one of the guns, Newton refused. “I don’t have to give you anything but my identification, name, and address,” he insisted. This, too, he had learned in law school.

“Who in the hell do you think you are?” an officer responded.

“Who in the hell do you think you are?,” Newton replied indignantly. He told the officer that he and his friends had a legal right to have their firearms.

Newton got out of the car, still holding his rifle.

“What are you going to do with that gun?” asked one of the stunned policemen.

“What are you going to do with your gun?,” Newton replied.

By this time, the scene had drawn a crowd of onlookers. An officer told the bystanders to move on, but Newton shouted at them to stay. California law, he yelled, gave civilians a right to observe a police officer making an arrest, so long as they didn’t interfere. Newton played it up for the crowd. In a loud voice, he told the police officers, “If you try to shoot at me or if you try to take this gun, I’m going to shoot back at you, swine.” Although normally a black man with Newton’s attitude would quickly find himself handcuffed in the back of a police car, enough people had gathered on the street to discourage the officers from doing anything rash. Because they hadn’t committed any crime, the Panthers were allowed to go on their way.

The people who’d witnessed the scene were dumbstruck. Not even Bobby Seale could believe it. Right then, he said, he knew that Newton was the “baddest motherfucker in the world.” Newton’s message was clear: “The gun is where it’s at and about and in.” After the February incident, the Panthers began a regular practice of policing the police. Thanks to an army of new recruits inspired to join up when they heard about Newton’s bravado, groups of armed Panthers would drive around following police cars. When the police stopped a black person, the Panthers would stand off to the side and shout out legal advice...

313 Gus  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:42:16am
...Don Mulford, a conservative Republican state assemblyman from Alameda County, which includes Oakland, was determined to end the Panthers’ police patrols. To disarm the Panthers, he proposed a law that would prohibit the carrying of a loaded weapon in any California city. When Newton found out about this, he told Seale, “You know what we’re going to do? We’re going to the Capitol.” Seale was incredulous. “The Capitol?” Newton explained: “Mulford’s there, and they’re trying to pass a law against our guns, and we’re going to the Capitol steps.” Newton’s plan was to take a select group of Panthers “loaded down to the gills,” to send a message to California lawmakers about the group’s opposition to any new gun control.

The Panthers’ methods provoked an immediate backlash. The day of their statehouse protest, lawmakers said the incident would speed enactment of Mulford’s gun-control proposal. Mulford himself pledged to make his bill even tougher, and he added a provision barring anyone but law enforcement from bringing a loaded firearm into the state capitol.

Republicans in California eagerly supported increased gun control. Governor Reagan told reporters that afternoon that he saw “no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.” He called guns a “ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.” In a later press conference, Reagan said he didn’t “know of any sportsman who leaves his home with a gun to go out into the field to hunt or for target shooting who carries that gun loaded.” The Mulford Act, he said, “would work no hardship on the honest citizen.” ...

314 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:43:03am

re: #305 Eventual Carrion

Maybe by finding what regulations they implemented after the ratification would shine some light on that. I just did a quick google search and have come up empty so far. Would think any regulation(s) they voted to put in place would pretty much match their intent of that time.

Look up the Militia Acts of 1792.

315 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:45:28am

re: #310 Killgore Trout

I just did the same thing. Not much information on gun regulation between ratification and the civil war. Here's a timeline that seem representative of most of the easily available info.
[Link: usgovinfo.about.com...]

It does seem there was much interest in gun control laws in the early days of the US.

In the second Congress it looks like they were more concerned as to how the militia's would be setup and the power of the president to summon them. Also lays out who need to serve and what provisions (supplied by themselves) were to be maintained.

316 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:48:57am

The nonintercourse act caught my eye :-)

The Nonintercourse Act (also known as the Indian Intercourse Act or the Indian Nonintercourse Act) is the collective name given to six statutes passed by the United States Congress in 1790, 1793, 1796, 1799, 1802, and 1834. The Act regulates commerce between Native Americans and non-Indians. The most notable provisions of the Act regulate the inalienability of aboriginal title in the United States, a continuing source of litigation for almost 200 years. The prohibition on purchases of Indian lands without the approval of the federal government has its origins in the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and the Confederation Congress Proclamation of 1783.

317 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:51:25am

re: #316 Eventual Carrion

The nonintercourse act caught my eye :-)

The Nonintercourse Act (also known as the Indian Intercourse Act or the Indian Nonintercourse Act) is the collective name given to six statutes passed by the United States Congress in 1790, 1793, 1796, 1799, 1802, and 1834. The Act regulates commerce between Native Americans and non-Indians. The most notable provisions of the Act regulate the inalienability of aboriginal title in the United States, a continuing source of litigation for almost 200 years. The prohibition on purchases of Indian lands without the approval of the federal government has its origins in the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and the Confederation Congress Proclamation of 1783.

Thats fucked up!!

//

318 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:55:38am

re: #297 b_sharp

That petition is true insanity.

I don't get the "look" of the website --really? How many people are actually going to "buy" that.

319 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 9:59:05am
320 dragonath  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 10:00:11am

re: #316 Eventual Carrion

That reminds me of a fairly recent Roberts Court decision:

Carcieri v. Salazar

Carcieri v. Salazar, 555 U.S. 379 (2009), was a recent case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the term "now under Federal jurisdiction" referred only to tribes that were federally recognized when the Indian Reorganization Act[1] became law, and the federal government could not take land into trust from tribes that were recognized after 1934.[2]

It's one of the few cases where Clarence Thomas delivered the court's opinion- and it's a strange one too.

321 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 10:02:53am

re: #310 Killgore Trout

I just did the same thing. Not much information on gun regulation between ratification and the civil war. Here's a timeline that seem representative of most of the easily available info.
[Link: usgovinfo.about.com...]

It does seem there was much interest in gun control laws in the early days of the US.

IIRC, England tried to enact an embargo of gun powder to the colonies to quell any ideas of armed revolt. Don't ask me the particulars, my memories are hazy.

I think this is the source of the "citizens right to resist a tyrant with arms" meme. But don't quote me. Anyone here know a source reference?? supporting or debunking???

There is a lot of romanticized info out there. I know I absorbed quite a bit as a young person from family.

322 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 10:06:06am
323 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 10:08:24am

re: #322 Kronocide

Prayer line trolling LULZ

Perhaps Jesus should tell him to HAVE A SALAD every so often!!

324 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 10:19:09am

re: #311 Gus

The Secret History of Guns

The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership—and regulated it. And no group has more fiercely advocated the right to bear loaded weapons in public than the Black Panthers—the true pioneers of the modern pro-gun movement. In the battle over gun rights in America, both sides have distorted history and the law, and there’s no resolution in sight.

Gun control as always been about controlling the poor and minorities. The most difficult part of any regulation for me is the knowledge that elected officials automatically have the right to carry upon taking office and that the very wealthy and powerful will not be prosecuted for possession. Thus making the average citizen the one that is regulated.

It frustrates me a great deal, as I don't see a need for automatic weapons as most of us do.

I still think an Amendment that recognizes the right to self-defense would quell a lot of opposition, but it should be understood as part of the Right to Life, Liberty . . . . . just as an ERA shouldn't be necessary, but is.

325 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 23, 2012 1:36:44pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

Cali does have the higher murder rate, though, and it has far tighter gun laws. That does say something, and what it says isn't positive for gun control.

That statement says a whole lot about your reasoning and rationale.

Not a good statement.


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