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Matt Drudge Godwins Himself Right Out

WTF
Wingnuts • Views: 23,224

Subtle.

This is the kind of insanity that’s being fed to the US right wing, day in and day out, in an echo chamber of deranged hatred. Drudge Report has had a permanent link to Alex Jones’s hate site for years, and now there’s very little difference between the crazed conspiracy theories of Jones and the everyday fare at almost any right wing website.

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154 comments

1 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 10:56:09am

Takes real serious blinders to read this headline, look at at the world around you, and not observe the stunning dissonance.

GOP voters: unable or unwilling to think about non-trivial topics in a reflective and critical manner. Full stop.

2 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 10:57:01am
3 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 10:59:28am

The sad thing is that the Choir to whom Druge is singing doesn’t see this as Godwin. They are still living the Cold War.

4 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:00:56am

Demeaning to the victims of Hitler and Stalin.

5 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:01:23am

One sees that these guys, who have always been paranoid, are now feeling seriously threatened.

They see that a lot of politicians, previously cowed by the NRA, are starting to stand up to the gun lobby.

They are not used to that, and considering the NRA logic of “just because Obama did nothing at all to restrict access to guns in his first four years does not mean he won’t be coming after them in his second term”, it simply confirms their paranoid delusions.

6 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:03:08am

They said basically this same thing on Fox News yesterday. In a segment about Biden’s committee and the recommendations that will be made it was presented from the point of view of “you’re screwed, they’re coming for your guns.”

Also if I remember correctly the term “Gun ban” was used more than “gun control”.

7 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:03:15am
They see that a lot of politicians, previously cowed by the NRA, are starting to stand up to the gun lobby. They are not used to that…

Yeah, the NRA has pretty much gotten a pass for the past decade and longer. I can’t really remember the last time there was a serious attempt to restrict gun ownership. Probably predates the Dubya years.

8 jaunte  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:03:48am

re: #4 Gus

Magazine limits are the new Nazis

9 bratwurst  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:03:55am

Someone recently asked me why I preferred living in Germany to where I am now in the United States. One reason is that photos like the above are not permitted to be injected into the daily discourse there. Somehow, I am willing to put up with this “loss of freedom”.

10 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:04:40am

HA HA HA #TGDN is so pwn3d

11 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:04:58am

re: #3 FemNaziBitch

The sad thing is that the Choir to whom Druge is singing doesn’t see this as Godwin. They are still living the Cold War.

This isn’t even the Cold War. This is about a media subculture that has made its money selling its ELEVENTY!!!11” rage articles. The problem with doing that is that rage is like a drug in that the user finds himself needing more and more of it to get the ‘high’ they are looking for, so the subculture keeps upping the dosage of rage. Sooner or later the cycle will break and the resulting decompensation will be hideous to watch.

/Or have I been watching Criminal Minds too much lately?

12 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:05:14am

re: #10 Vicious Babushka

what does TGDN stand for in conservative world?

13 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:06:16am

re: #9 bratwurst

Someone recently asked me why I preferred living in Germany to where I am now in the United States. One reason is that photos like the above are not permitted to be injected into the daily discourse there. Somehow, I am willing to put up with this “loss of freedom”.

As an expat living in Germany as well, I usually get a bit homesick around the holidays. But after Sandy Hook, I thought about my four kids (attending school across the border in France), breathed a sigh of relief and felt a lot less homesick.

14 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:06:48am

re: #12 Bulworth

what does TGDN stand for in conservative world?

Twitter Gulag Defense Network.

15 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:06:49am

re: #6 dragonfire1981

They said basically this same thing on Fox News yesterday. In a segment about Biden’s committee and the recommendations that will be made it was presented from the point of view of “you’re screwed, they’re coming for your guns.”

Also if I remember correctly the term “Gun ban” was used more than “gun control”.

Yes, in there mind there is no difference. I’ve started using the phrase “gun regulation” as that is what the Supreme Court says is Constitutional.

The old “slippery slope” paranoia is hard to overcome. I try to point-out the recent court cases + the gun lobby won the confiscation law suits after Katrina. There is plenty of recent precident to show that law enforcement isn’t going to do house-to-house searches without a clear legal intent.

It’s difficult to counter the emotional power of the paranoia and to try to reach the adult part of the brain with such individuals.

16 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:08:10am

re: #5 Sol Berdinowitz

I guess the last real gun controversy was after Columbine (1999?) and gun control advocates were made to back down after not much of a struggle. As after Newtown, blame was instead pointed at Atheists, Satanists, video games, God kicked out of the school, etc.

17 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:08:15am

The really stupid thing is all these hare brained comparisons detract from how truly evil and despicable a human being Hitler actually was.

It marginalizes him and there is no way he should be marginalized. There are damn good reasons he’s considered one of the worst who ever lived.

18 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:08:22am
19 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:08:30am

re: #14 dragonfire1981

hahahahahahahahahhahh

20 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:08:46am

the nazis relaxed restrictions on gun ownership in their revision in 1938 of the weimar republic’s gun laws

except for jews

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

under the nazi era laws, only handguns were subject to restrictions!

21 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:08:59am

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

This isn’t even the Cold War. This is about a media subculture that has made its money selling its ELEVENTY!!!11” rage articles. The problem with doing that is that rage is like a drug in that the user finds himself needing more and more of it to get the ‘high’ they are looking for, so the subculture keeps upping the dosage of rage. Sooner or later the cycle will break and the resulting decompensation will be hideous to watch.

/Or have I been watching Criminal Minds too much lately?

Yes, it is a drama addiction in a way. a While back a Lizard suggested I order and watch a video series called The Century of Self. It went a long way to helping me understand the paranoia for which the Cold War was the scapegoat. Now its Terrorism, drugs, whatever …

22 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:09:12am

re: #19 Bulworth

hahahahahahahahahhahh

Charles did a post on it yesterday, go back and read it for more fun times.

23 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:09:39am

re: #14 dragonfire1981

oh wait, you’re serious?

The tcot’s have created a tgdn of freedom?

24 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:10:17am

Hate to go O/T but had to share this, you may need tissues:

25 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:10:38am

re: #23 Bulworth

Yes, regretfully I am serious…and don’t call me Shirley.

26 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:10:51am

re: #22 dragonfire1981

OK, thanks

27 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:13:07am

re: #15 FemNaziBitch

Yes, in there mind there is no difference. I’ve started using the phrase “gun regulation” as that is what the Supreme Court says is Constitutional.

The old “slippery slope” paranoia is hard to overcome. I try to point-out the recent court cases + the gun lobby won the confiscation law suits after Katrina. There is plenty of recent precident to show that law enforcement isn’t going to do house-to-house searches without a clear legal intent.

It’s difficult to counter the emotional power of the paranoia and to try to reach the adult part of the brain with such individuals.

That’s all they’ve devolved to by now, forever invoking the specter of the slippery slope. Even the supposed “reasonable” folks are stating that they’re against further regulation, because they view it as “punishment.”

28 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:13:09am
And when I clicked the link to the #TGDN (“Twitter Gulag Defense Network”) hashtag I discovered a brave new world of right wing paranoia and whiny victimhood.

hahahahahahhahahahhahahahahah

omg

29 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:13:17am

re: #20 engineer cat

the nazis relaxed restrictions on gun ownership in their revision in 1938 of the weimar republic’s gun laws

except for jews

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

under the nazi era laws, only handguns were subject to restrictions!

Shotguns have never been as popular in Europe as they are here and the bolt action rifles common in Germany in those days weren’t useful for crime nor were they good weapons for an insurgent unless that insurgent was a very good shot (bolt-action rifles are still useful for insurgent sharpshooters to this day).

30 jaunte  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:15:10am

re: #28 Bulworth

Save Our Langwidge!

31 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:15:53am

re: #27 Targetpractice

That’s all they’ve devolved to by now, forever invoking the specter of the slippery slope. Even the supposed “reasonable” folks are stating that they’re against further regulation, because they view it as “punishment.”

And I can understand. The vast majority of guns have never been used in a crime. It is sad that law abiding citizens are at risk of losing (or having to go thru registration etc) for firearms they’ve never misused.

But like having to show your driver’s license to purchase pseudophed, a few bad apples ruin the whole barrel.

32 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:17:31am

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Shotguns have never been as popular in Europe as they are here and the bolt action rifles common in Germany in those days weren’t useful for crime nor were they good weapons for an insurgent unless that insurgent was a very good shot (bolt-action rifles are still useful for insurgent sharpshooters to this day).

be that as it may, nazi gun laws, so far from being more restrictive than american laws, were in fact more permissive

Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. […] “The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition.”

yet somehow i don’t think the german people at this time were more free than us

33 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:18:11am

re: #31 FemNaziBitch

And I can understand. The vast majority of guns have never been used in a crime. It is sad that law abiding citizens are at risk of losing (or having to go thru registration etc) for firearms they’ve never misused.

But like having to show your driver’s license to purchase pseudophed, a few bad apples ruin the whole barrel.

The Constitution says nothing about the right to unlimited and unregulated access to guns.

34 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:18:30am

re: #33 Sol Berdinowitz

The Constitution says nothing about the right to unlimited and unregulated access to guns.

Never said it did.

35 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:18:58am

re: #31 FemNaziBitch

And I can understand. The vast majority of guns have never been used in a crime. It is sad that law abiding citizens are at risk of losing (or having to go thru registration etc) for firearms they’ve never misused.

But like having to show your driver’s license to purchase pseudophed, a few bad apples ruin the whole barrel.

Agreed, there’s a vast gulf between inconvenience and confiscation.

36 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:19:45am

re: #32 engineer cat

be that as it may, nazi gun laws, so far from being more restrictive than american laws, were in fact more permissive

Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. […] “The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition.”

yet somehow i don’t think the german people at this time were more free than us

For Chrissakes, we cannot begin to compare Europe, which was densely populated and almost completely settled for centuries, to America with its sparse population and fairly recent history of urban/agrarian settlements.

37 Bulworth  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:19:45am

re: #30 jaunte

Sounds like something’s imperiled alright.

38 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:20:12am


39 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:20:36am

re: #34 FemNaziBitch

Never said it did.

I gathered, but some seem to think the two are identical.

40 efuseakay  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:20:38am

re: #3 FemNaziBitch

The sad thing is that the Choir to whom Druge is singing doesn’t see this as Godwin. They are still living the Cold War Civil War.

Had to fix your error there…

41 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:21:05am

re: #39 Sol Berdinowitz

I gathered, but some seem to think the two are identical.

Yes, I understand your point.

The Heller case stated that while the right to own firearms was an individual right, The Supreme Court also stressed the government had the responsibility to regulate.

I find myself reminding people of that.

42 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:22:17am

re: #41 FemNaziBitch

Yes, I understand your point.

As do I.

43 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:24:14am

I believe the Constitution, if interpreted striclty and in the sense of the Founding Fathers, gives us all the right to own as many muzzle-loading muskets and as much roundshot and black powder as we can store…

44 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:24:24am

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

As do I.

A good comparison might be one with the 1st Amendment. One has the right to free speech, but not to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre …

Yes, you have the right to own a firearm for self-defence and sporting purposes, but not to own every possible version of every firearm ever manufactured.

45 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:24:53am

re: #43 Sol Berdinowitz

I believe the Constitution, if interpreted striclty and in the sense of the Founding Fathers, gives us all the right to own as many muzzle-loading muskets and as much roundshot and black powder as we can store…

I’m still hoping for my Star Trek Phaser with a civilian setting for Stun.

46 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:25:17am

OT but my wife and I have been through a crazy week this past week while car shopping.

First we went to a large local dealership that advertises regularly on TV mainly because we both really like the car brand (Honda). We looked at some cars and found a few we were happy with. We told the salesperson the MAXIMUM monthly payment we could afford and the down payment we were willing to put up. We also told him that in lieu of a Honda, there were only a select few other makes of vehicles we were willing to consider.

The next day after running credit and all that fun stuff we find out that we won’t be able to afford a Honda. The salesperson then shows us a Ford Expedition. Ford wasn’t on our list of makes. The vehicle was ok but I refused to get it on account of the terrible gas mileage it has (15 MPG).

Then they showed us a Chevy Malibu we both liked and led us to believe that, more than likely, we could probably get that car.

The day after we went in after they called and told us they had a “Deal that would work”. But when we got there, instead of saying a peep about the Malibu, the salesperson starts showing us other vehicle options. He would not give us any specifics about what kind of financing we were eligible for, only cryptically that the “bank would only approve certain vehicles at certain mileages”. He proceeded to show us a Chevy HHR, A Dodge Durango and then he tried to show us a Ford Focus, which we refused to see.

Also of note: Neither Dodge or Ford were on our list of desired makes. Chevy was but only for cars.

Already frustrated, I told the salesperson we wanted the Malibu. Before he went to get us the information on that he told us to be “Flexible on our monthly payment” even though we’d already given him our max.

Then when he came back he dropped the bomb on us. We could get the Malibu but the monthly payment would be TWICE AS MUCH as we could afford! (“Deal that would work” my butt).

When I frustratingly told him there’s no way that could work he said “Well I can get you that HHR for $100 a month less”.

GRRRRRR….

Look you moron. I TOLD YOU what we could afford to pay and I TOLD YOU we didn’t want the HHR so why won’t you LISTEN??

He refused to tell me what lenders were offering us financing or even what amount they were willing to give and continually kept trying to shovel cars at us that we DIDN’T WANT.

After taking a few days to detox from that experience, we ended up going to a smaller local car lot run by the brother of a woman we go to church with. A guy we know from that same church happens to work there and set us up with a good deal.

We got a vehicle that matched every item on our wish list, at a price we could afford with no hassle or BS or nonsense whatsoever. They even let my wife and I drive the car off the lot to have lunch while we contemplated buying it. The whole process went smoothly and we drove it off the lot within 3 hours.

I will be referring people to this car lot and telling them to stay far away from the big name dealer.

47 efuseakay  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:25:17am

re: #30 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Save Our Langwidge!

Mmmm… open-faced sandwedge! *droooooooooool*

48 jaunte  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:25:32am

“With the re-election of President Barack Obama, we must face the fact that we are at the beginning of a four-year nightmare.”

“Unless you and I stand firm under one banner to defeat gun bans, it’s only a matter of time until we lose our freedom, our heritage, and our American way of life.”
— Wayne LaPierre


[Link: maddowblog.msnbc.com…]

49 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:25:34am

re: #40 efuseakay

Had to fix your error there…

Yeah, Perhaps it’s a 50/50 mix.

50 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:25:54am

re: #45 FemNaziBitch

I’m still hoping for my Star Trek Phaser with a civilian setting for Stun.

Would be great for large crowds like Black Friday.

Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW!

51 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:26:43am

re: #46 dragonfire1981

Ah, I HATE car shopping.

52 efuseakay  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:27:06am

re: #44 FemNaziBitch

A good comparison might be one with the 1st Amendment. One has the right to free speech, but not to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre …

Yes, you have the right to own a firearm for self-defence and sporting purposes, but not to own every possible version of every firearm ever manufactured.

And nobody should be allowed to purchase 6,000 rounds of ammunition online. Or any amount for that matter. You want to buy ammo? Go to your local store, and get a background check as if you were buying a gun. Nobody is taking your ammo away from you. You can still buy it. Just wait a few days.

53 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:27:25am

re: #50 Gus

Would be great for large crowds like Black Friday.

Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW!

Wow, I never thought of that.

It would also be great for rattlesnakes.

54 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:27:58am

re: #48 jaunte

“With the re-election of President Barack Obama, we must face the fact that we are at the beginning of a four-year nightmare.”

“Unless you and I stand firm under one banner to defeat gun bans, it’s only a matter of time until we lose our freedom, our heritage, and our American way of life.”
— Wayne LaPierre

[Link: maddowblog.msnbc.com…]

False Scarcity is a great marketing tool.

55 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:28:24am

Drudge is the myspace of political websites

56 efuseakay  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:28:29am

re: #50 Gus

Would be great for large crowds like Black Friday.

Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW!

Rotating frequency too… there might be Borg!

57 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:28:39am

re: #53 FemNaziBitch

Wow, I never thought of that.

It would also be great for rattlesnakes.

In and out of the DMV within 2 minutes. //

58 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:29:31am

re: #52 efuseakay

And nobody should be allowed to purchase 6,000 rounds of ammunition online. Or any amount for that matter. You want to buy ammo? Go to your local store, and get a background check as if you were buying a gun. Nobody is taking your ammo away from you. You can still buy it. Just wait a few days.

Local stores don’t always carry the desired type of ammo. Sales shipped by US Mail should be OK, provided that orderer verification is made. I’d also be willing to add that an online sale must be run through NICS.

Phone interview. BBIAB

59 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:29:32am

re: #52 efuseakay

And nobody should be allowed to purchase 6,000 rounds of ammunition online. Or any amount for that matter. You want to buy ammo? Go to your local store, and get a background check as if you were buying a gun. Nobody is taking your ammo away from you. You can still buy it. Just wait a few days.

In Illinois you have to show your FOID to get ammo. When hubby is getting ready for Trap/Skeet season (he saves a certain time of the year for this) he does buy in bulk because it is so much cheaper and he knows he is going to go thru it.

But, I guess there is a difference between shotgun shells and rifle cartridges.

60 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:29:48am

re: #55 Dr. Matt

Drudge is the myspace of political websites

Then what is FreeRepublic?

61 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:30:02am

re: #50 Gus

Would be great for large crowds like Black Friday.

Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW! Out of my way! PEW!

Or:

“OUT OF MY WAY!!”

Ra-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta
(semi auto weapon)

62 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:30:30am

re: #56 efuseakay

Rotating frequency too… there might be Borg!

Remodulating nutation!

63 jaunte  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:30:33am

re: #54 FemNaziBitch

It’s a “four year nightmare” in which those subject to paranoia amp up their fears by inventing new ones every day, while the rest of the world continues around them.

64 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:31:03am

Biden is the king of trolls everywhere

65 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:31:41am

re: #46 dragonfire1981

I’d suggest you’re going about this the wrong way. Know how much you can afford is part. With that information alone, the dealer’s going to find the car that gives him maximum profit and wont necessarily meet your needs. Getting prequalified on a car loan from a bank instead of through the dealer can help with negotiations too.

Find the cars that fit your price range - know your down payment/monthly payment tolerance and work up from there. There’s any number of calculators that can help you figure out the price - and then you can work up from the dealer invoice price that you can obtain from Consumer Reports or KBB or Edmunds. Dealer will still get nice profit, but you’re able to set your price and preferences for vehicles.

66 jaunte  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:33:00am

Walmart’s Too Busy to Talk to Joe Biden About Gun Control

This wouldn’t have happened to Stalin.

67 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:33:49am
68 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:33:52am

re: #60 Vicious Babushka

Then what is FreeRepublic?

The Special Olympics?

69 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:34:32am

re: #68 Dr. Matt

The Special Olympics?

Please don’t insult special needs people that way.

70 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:34:56am

re: #69 Vicious Babushka

Please don’t insult special needs people that way.

Touche’. Point taken.

71 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:35:44am

re: #45 FemNaziBitch

I’m still hoping for my Star Trek Phaser with a civilian setting for Stun.

With development of energy weapons I expect you’ll see the equivalent of a Barrayaran nerve disruptor well before you see a phaser capable of an effective (and relatively safe) “stun” setting.

72 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:36:00am

The TGDN trolling is getting pretty amusing…

73 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:36:30am

I’ve finished Francis Fukuyama’s The Origins of Political Order. I listened to it on audible.com. I’m considering perusing a used copy to see if there are maps and glossaries in it. I may want to refer to it in the future.

It was very interesting for the history presentation if nothing else.

One of his premises is that Man is intrinsically violent and one of the purposes of government is to channel and control this trait.

74 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:36:45am

re: #69 Vicious Babushka

Please don’t insult special needs people that way.

Thanks for that!

75 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:37:20am

re: #71 Feline Fearless Leader

With development of energy weapons I expect you’ll see the equivalent of a Barrayaran nerve disruptor well before you see a phaser capable of an effective (and relatively safe) “stun” setting.

Would that work against nerve pain?

76 Destro  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:37:57am

So “they” think that the US Govt is one step away from becoming Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia?

Then why did these very same right wingers support building up the American military to the degree they have?

Is not the right wing the ones that “support our troops and our cops”? against the left? Now the right wing is afraid of the troops they still support and are planning to horde rifles to kill these troops?

Does that makes sense to anyone other than a right wing kook?

77 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:38:48am

re: #76 Destro

So “they” think that the US Govt is one step away from becoming Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia?

Then why did these very same right wingers support building up the American military to the degree they have?

Is not the right wing the ones that “support our troops and our cops”? against the left? Now the right wing is afraid of the troops they still support and are planning to horde rifles to kill these troops?

Does that makes sense to anyone other than a right wing kook?

In their fantasy world, the military would turn on the government in a heartbeat.

78 Lidane  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:41:28am

Quick post while I rest my feet for a few minutes, so apologies if I’m repeating someone else.

These morons DO know that Hitler and Stalin were on opposite sides during WW2, right?

79 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:41:40am

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

This isn’t even the Cold War. This is about a media subculture that has made its money selling its ELEVENTY!!!11” rage articles. The problem with doing that is that rage is like a drug in that the user finds himself needing more and more of it to get the ‘high’ they are looking for, so the subculture keeps upping the dosage of rage. Sooner or later the cycle will break and the resulting decompensation will be hideous to watch.

/Or have I been watching Criminal Minds too much lately?

I’m telling you, the hysteria is being amped up more and more. Someone on the far-right is gonna pull something, and something bad. A bombing, assassination attempt, you name it. This level of paranoia and hatred will empower some RWNJ to “save ‘Merica!”

80 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:43:02am

re: #78 Lidane

Molotov Ribbentropp Pact. /dontcha know

81 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:43:03am

re: #66 jaunte

Walmart’s Too Busy to Talk to Joe Biden About Gun Control

This wouldn’t have happened to Stalin.

That article is out of date. They’ve agreed to be part of the confab after all.

82 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:43:05am

re: #78 Lidane

Quick post while I rest my feet for a few minutes, so apologies if I’m repeating someone else.

These morons DO know that Hitler and Stalin were on opposite sides during WW2, right?

They live by the belief that both were leftists, just to different degrees, that fascism and communism were just two flavors of the same ideology.

83 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:43:27am

So lessee, next step is for Obama to have the head of the army fired over a ficticious homosexual sex scandal and replace him with a bunch of kowtowing flunkies…

Then he remilitarizes the Rhineland, annexes Austria and occupes the Sudentenland.

and/or to purge over half of the general staff, create phony famines to starve the peasant masses into submission and declare war on Finland…

84 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:44:19am

re: #78 Lidane

Quick post while I rest my feet for a few minutes, so apologies if I’m repeating someone else.

These morons DO know that Hitler and Stalin were on opposite sides during WW2, right?

Not to mention that the Hitler and the Nazis HATED communists, socialists, liberals, academic-types, gypsies, and minorities. Sound like anyone we know…..?????

85 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:44:23am

re: #82 Targetpractice

They live by the belief that both were leftists, just to different degrees, that fascism and communism were just two flavors of the same ideology.

These are the sdame people who think that homosexuality is the moral equivalent of bestiality, pedophilia and spouse abuse…

86 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:44:44am

re: #79 Dr Lizardo

I’m telling you, the hysteria is being amped up more and more. Someone on the far-right is gonna pull something, and something bad. A bombing, assassination attempt, you name it. This level of paranoia and hatred will empower some RWNJ to “save ‘Merica!”

Someone may try something, but that is not the same thing as saying they will succeed. If you fear that sort of thing, you can best do your part to prevent by teaching yourself to be vigilant.

87 Destro  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:45:28am

re: #77 Targetpractice

In their fantasy world, the military would turn on the government in a heartbeat.

That still does not makes sense from a right wing fantasy scenario because if the military (and the cops) turn agains the evil gun grabbing govt then the people need not be afraid and thus they don’t need civilians armed like paramilitaries.

Right? Hello? Anyone on the right?

88 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:45:57am

There used to be a pedestrian American POV that the USA could have defeated Hitler on their own. Fact remains that Hitler was defeated with the help of Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.

89 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:47:05am

re: #78 Lidane

Quick post while I rest my feet for a few minutes, so apologies if I’m repeating someone else.

These morons DO know that Hitler and Stalin were on opposite sides during WW2, right?

But Hitler was anti-smoking, so it’s totally the same thing.

91 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:48:00am

re: #88 Gus

There used to be a pedestrian American POV that the USA could have defeated Hitler on their own. Fact remains that Hitler was defeated with the help of Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.

Probably could have defeated, but could not have conquered.

♥ you, cheerful and friendly power of the atom

92 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:49:03am

re: #89 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

But Hitler was anti-smoking, so it’s totally the same thing.

And Hitler was a vegetarian! And Hitler wore pants!

93 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:49:51am

re: #91 erik_t

Probably could have defeated, but could not have conquered.

♥ you, cheerful and friendly power of the atom

Yes, but this is a historical fact as opposed to a “what-if” work of fiction.

94 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:50:09am
95 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:50:11am

re: #88 Gus

There used to be a pedestrian American POV that the USA could have defeated Hitler on their own. Fact remains that Hitler was defeated with the help of Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.

Britain, Canada, Australia, the European underground had no impact?

96 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:50:37am

re: #91 erik_t

Probably could have defeated, but could not have conquered.

What evidence is there that the US by itself could have defeated Hitler?

97 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:50:56am

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

Someone may try something, but that is not the same thing as saying they will succeed. If you fear that sort of thing, you can best do your part to prevent by teaching yourself to be vigilant.

I’m vigilant, so to speak, in that I have a good degree of situational awareness when I go out and about. Fortunately, political terrorism (and extremism) is pretty rare here in the Czech Republic. Now, if you’re a Romani, well, then you’ll have problems, on many levels. Sadly, a good deal of prejudice toward Romani here. And some antipathy toward the more recent African immigrants. The Czechs seem to be over their hatred of the Vietnamese, fortunately.

98 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:51:17am

re: #91 erik_t

Probably could have defeated, but could not have conquered.

Oh, we certainly could have defeated them, we even had plans in the works towards that end in the early days, when England remaining an ally was still in question. The war would have been stretched out by a couple more years, more people would have died, and Germany would be an atomic wasteland. But we’d have conquered.

99 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:51:27am

re: #79 Dr Lizardo

I’m telling you, the hysteria is being amped up more and more. Someone on the far-right is gonna pull something, and something bad. A bombing, assassination attempt, you name it. This level of paranoia and hatred will empower some RWNJ to “save ‘Merica!”

I think the Powers-that-Be (OH NOOOO!) are watching closely. Specific kooks have been identified.

100 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:52:09am

re: #88 Gus

There used to be a pedestrian American POV that the USA could have defeated Hitler on their own. Fact remains that Hitler was defeated with the help of Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.

Actually, Hitler was defeated by Stalin and the USSR, aided by the US and UK. Most German casualties were incurred on the Eastern Front and from June 941 right up to V-E Day most of Germany’s forces were deployed to face the Red Army.

Why do you hate America?

101 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:52:18am

re: #95 b_sharp

Britain, Canada, Australia, the European underground had no impact?

The French resistance, albeit mocked by conservatives, was very crucial in WWII.

102 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:53:25am

re: #88 Gus

There used to be a pedestrian American POV that the USA could have defeated Hitler on their own. Fact remains that Hitler was defeated with the help of Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.

There used to be, and still is, a pedestrian American POV that the USA saved the world in WWII, and all the rest of the Allied forces, the various intelligence networks, guerilla resistance movements, etc., were merely riding our coattails.

103 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:53:39am

Accused Picasso Vandal Surrenders at U.S.-Mexico Border

In June Mr. Landeros appeared to be seen in a cellphone video that depicted him spraying graffiti on the Picasso painting “Woman in a Red Armchair,” which was being displayed at the Menil Collection in Houston. He was later charged with felony graffiti and criminal mischief, after which he fled the United States; his lawyer told The A.P. he may have been in Mexico since June.

Mr. Landeros, in an interview given last fall with KPRC-TV said, “I don’t regret anything that I’ve done.” The Associated Press said that he identified himself with the Occupy movement, and that he said he had defaced the painting as an act of social and political defiance.

104 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:53:41am

re: #99 FemNaziBitch

I think the Powers-that-Be (OH NOOOO!) are watching closely. Specific kooks have been identified.

I certainly hope so. One of my Czech students commented (to me) on Alex Jones’ epic rant the other day by commenting, “He’s insane.” And hoping that he didn’t have guns.

105 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:53:44am

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Actually, Hitler was defeated by Stalin and the USSR, aided by the US and UK. Most German casualties were incurred on the Eastern Front and from June 941 right up to V-E Day most of Germany’s forces were deployed to face the Red Army.

Uh oh. I just realized my comment was #88.

O_o

106 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:54:05am

re: #98 Targetpractice

Oh, we certainly could have defeated them, we even had plans in the works towards that end in the early days, when England remaining an ally was still in question. The war would have been stretched out by a couple more years, more people would have died, and Germany would be an atomic wasteland. But we’d have conquered.

Wow. Just Wow.

Remove all of the Allies from the equation, and the US could have defeated Hitler?

107 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:54:07am

And the Donald springs into action.

Trump releases birth certificate to Bill Maher, demands $5M

“On Monday’s “Tonight Show With Jay Leno,” Maher said he would donate $5 million to the charity of Trump’s choice (Maher suggested Hair Club for Men, among others) if the “Celebrity Apprentice” host could prove he is not the “spawn of his mother having sex with an orangutan.” Maher was mocking Trump’s much-publicized announcement in October that he would donate $5 million to charity if Obama would release his college records.”

108 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:54:10am

re: #101 Dr. Matt

The French resistance, albeit mocked by conservatives, was very crucial in WWII.

Vive la France!!!

109 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:54:28am

re: #95 b_sharp

Britain, Canada, Australia, the European underground had no impact?

Soviet Union (1941–45)[nb 1]
United States (1941–45)
United Kingdom
China (at war 1937–45)
France[nb 2]
Poland
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
Yugoslavia (1941–45)
Greece (1940–45)
Norway (1940–45)
Netherlands (1940–45)
Belgium (1940–45)
Czechoslovakia
Brazil (1942–45)

110 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:55:32am

re: #107 Bubblehead II

And the Donald springs into action.

Trump releases birth certificate to Bill Maher, demands $5M

“On Monday’s “Tonight Show With Jay Leno,” Maher said he would donate $5 million to the charity of Trump’s choice (Maher suggested Hair Club for Men, among others) if the “Celebrity Apprentice” host could prove he is not the “spawn of his mother having sex with an orangutan.” Maher was mocking Trump’s much-publicized announcement in October that he would donate $5 million to charity if Obama would release his college records.”

The birth certificate doesn’t lay to rest whether Trump’s father was an orangutan or not.

111 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:55:33am

re: #102 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

There used to be, and still is, a pedestrian American POV that the USA saved the world in WWII, and all the rest of the Allied forces, the various intelligence networks, guerilla resistance movements, etc., were merely riding our coattails.

Americans get really defensive about this when it comes up.

112 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:56:56am

re: #106 b_sharp

Wow. Just Wow.

Remove all of the Allies from the equation, and the US could have defeated Hitler?

Not all the Allies, but there’s plenty of scenarios where even the absence of one would have still led to Germany’s defeat. Like I said, we were planning for that eventuality as early as the 1930s.

113 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:57:08am

re: #111 Gus

Americans get really defensive about this when it comes up.

I guess it hurts to get smacked in the face by reality.

114 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:57:16am
115 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:58:22am

re: #113 b_sharp

I guess it hurts to get smacked in the face by reality.

Too many John Wayne movies. The Cold War didn’t help either. So we we’re left with a lot of Soviet as major ally denialism. That’s changing.

116 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:58:32am

re: #112 Targetpractice

Not all the Allies, but there’s plenty of scenarios where even the absence of one would have still led to Germany’s defeat. Like I said, we were planning for that eventuality as early as the 1930s.

Well then, having even one ally means the US could not have done it by themselves.

117 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:59:03am

re: #106 b_sharp

Wow. Just Wow.

Remove all of the Allies from the equation, and the US could have defeated Hitler?

Well, yes. The B-36 was effectively uninterceptable until the 1950s, and could fly a round-trip mission with a nuke aboard from CONUS to anywhere over Germany.

118 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:59:54am

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Bookburning has been cancelled
Connecticut town cancels plan to collect and destroy violent video games

I guess they realized that any comparisons with the Crusaders isn’t a good thing.

119 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:59:56am

re: #116 b_sharp

Well then, having even one ally means the US could not have done it by themselves.

Of course not. We needed plenty of cannon-fodder, er, allies to wear down the German forces.

//

120 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:01:05pm

re: #110 Dr. Matt

True. And it’s not a valid Birth Certificate anyway as it has been stamped void and not certified to be a true copy.

/

121 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:01:21pm

re: #118 FemNaziBitch

I guess they realized that any comparisons with the Crusaders isn’t a good thing.

The fumes from the fire would have been an environmental hazard too.

122 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:01:33pm

re: #88 Gus

There used to be a pedestrian American POV that the USA could have defeated Hitler on their own. Fact remains that Hitler was defeated with the help of Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.

Stalin’s Russia defeated hitler with the help of the USA…at any given time, the bulk of Hitler’s armies were tied up on the Eastern Front.

123 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:02:27pm

re: #117 erik_t

Well, yes. The B-36 was effectively uninterceptable until the 1950s, and could fly a round-trip mission with a nuke aboard from CONUS to anywhere over Germany.

The B36 didn’t fly until 1949.

What makes you think the US would have been given time to produce the A-bomb with no allies helping?

124 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:02:39pm

re: #122 Sol Berdinowitz

Stalin’s Russia defeated hitler with the help of the USA…at any given time, the bulk of Hitler’s armies were tied up on the Eastern Front.

Yes, the opposite is true.

125 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:04:13pm

This is why Canada is more European than the US. We have trouble accepting ‘exceptionalism’.

126 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:04:20pm

re: #123 b_sharp

The B36 didn’t fly until 1949.

What makes you think the US would have been given time to produce the A-bomb with no allies helping?

What do you mean, given time? We were under no threat of invasion or any severe economic harm.

(Incidentally, it first flew in 1946)

127 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:05:20pm

re: #125 b_sharp

This is why Canada is more European than the US. We have trouble accepting ‘exceptionalism’.

America wins even while it’s just dreaming. :D

128 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:05:56pm

re: #123 b_sharp

The B36 didn’t fly until 1949.

What makes you think the US would have been given time to produce the A-bomb with no allies helping?

The B-36 didn’t become operational until ‘49 because England remained an ally, giving us landing stripes within the operational range of B-17s. Hence my point about there being plans, as the B-36 was on the drawing board as a contingency. If England had fell, either due to hostile actions or a government coup, then production would have been accelerated.

And why would the US not have had time to produce an A-bomb?

129 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:07:49pm

re: #126 erik_t

What do you mean, given time? We were under no threat of invasion or any severe economic harm.

(Incidentally, it first flew in 1946)

My whole point is, that the idea the US could defeat Hitler by itself requires a large number of condition changes, including the pace and the direction of the war.

You are assuming nothing would change which isn’t possible if you change the initial conditions.

130 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:12:30pm

re: #129 b_sharp

Not really. German metallurgy was not in any state to produce jet engines good enough to intercept bombers we’d soon have in service — indeed, nobody’s was, not until the mid-1950s. The bombs were in the pipeline, as were the bombers.

We could have turned Germany into glowing glass, which I’d argue certainly counts as a ‘defeat’. Very little extrapolation is necessary.

Just because the RAH RAH ‘MURRICA crowd is a bunch of clueless fainting ninnies doesn’t mean that their existence nullifies actual fact-based arguments that occasionally do indicate, in a rational and dispassionate evaluation, a RAH RAH ‘MURRICA outcome.

131 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:18:13pm

re: #122 Sol Berdinowitz

Stalin’s Russia defeated hitler with the help of the USA…at any given time, the bulk of Hitler’s armies were tied up on the Eastern Front.

A lot more complicated than that since the war involved and was decided by a lot of factors. Germany’s resources got stretched by a lot of things:

— British economic blockade affecting their ability to import resources from abroad.

— British (and US) aerial bombing campaign was inflicting economic damage and also forcing Germany to retain air and AAA units at home to help defend the country. Maybe not numbers, but fairly high tech units given the nature of aeronautical design and the on-going electronics/radar war that went on. And from 1944-on it started having greater effect as it helped cripple Germany’s transportation network and fuel reserves.

— The side-show campaigns (Balkans, North Africa, Italy) did tie up some German resources and were also a constant source of worry. Plus the Germans had to commit resources to their navy and the U-boat campaign.

— Japan. Their traditional enemy was the Russians. The US as a strategic enemy developed during the 20th century and primarily was pushed by the IJN. So if no one else is playing what chance they opt to mess around in Siberia and cause further issues for Russia. Plus, with no US/UK interference they and the Germans can exchange resources and tech much more easily.

132 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:19:18pm

re: #130 erik_t

Not really. German metallurgy was not in any state to produce jet engines good enough to intercept bombers we’d soon have in service — indeed, nobody’s was, not until the mid-1950s. The bombs were in the pipeline, as were the bombers.

We could have turned Germany into glowing glass, which I’d argue certainly counts as a ‘defeat’. Very little extrapolation is necessary.

Just because the RAH RAH ‘MURRICA crowd is a bunch of clueless fainting ninnies doesn’t mean that their existence nullifies actual fact-based arguments that occasionally do indicate, in a rational and dispassionate evaluation, a RAH RAH ‘MURRICA outcome.

OK, so what you are saying is, the conditions remain the same up until after the US develops the A-bomb and long range bombers like the B-36, and then after all of the Allies disappear, the US defeats Hitler.

All by itself.

OK then.

133 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:20:01pm

So in conclusion. Murica could have defeated barbaric Hitler on its own by killing 1,000,000s of German civilians with atomic bombs — an act which itself would have been considered barbaric.

134 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:20:31pm

And Hitler could have not invaded Poland.

135 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:21:07pm

America wins in all “what-if” scenarios. /

136 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:21:10pm

re: #134 Gus

And Hitler could have not invaded Poland.

No. No. No. Read your RWNJ writers. The UK *tricked* Hitler into invading Poland.
:p
///

137 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:22:27pm

re: #130 erik_t

Not really. German metallurgy was not in any state to produce jet engines good enough to intercept bombers we’d soon have in service — indeed, nobody’s was, not until the mid-1950s. The bombs were in the pipeline, as were the bombers.

We could have turned Germany into glowing glass, which I’d argue certainly counts as a ‘defeat’. Very little extrapolation is necessary.

Just because the RAH RAH ‘MURRICA crowd is a bunch of clueless fainting ninnies doesn’t mean that their existence nullifies actual fact-based arguments that occasionally do indicate, in a rational and dispassionate evaluation, a RAH RAH ‘MURRICA outcome.

Germany was building rocket engines, though, and follow-on versions of the ME-163 might have been an answer to any ultra high altitude threat. The other thing to remember is that accuracy from that height against hardened targets would stunk.

138 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:23:38pm

Then on the heels of WWII. “Invading” North Korea? Piece of cake. //

139 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:24:45pm

re: #133 Gus

So in conclusion. Murica could have defeated barbaric Hitler on its own by killing 1,000,000s of German civilians with atomic bombs — an act which itself would have been considered barbaric.

No disputing that. It would have been very, very bad.

140 erik_t  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:25:36pm

re: #132 b_sharp

OK, so what you are saying is, the conditions remain the same up until after the US develops the A-bomb and long range bombers like the B-36, and then after all of the Allies disappear, the US defeats Hitler.

All by itself.

OK then.

Three points, very simple. We have the bomb, we have the bomber, they can’t touch the latter due to basic material science limits. You’re handwaving them away, and I don’t care for it.

141 Gus  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:26:15pm

bbl

142 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:26:25pm

re: #136 Feline Fearless Leader

No. No. No. Read your RWNJ writers. The UK *tricked* Hitler into invading Poland.
:p
///

Only Patrick Pukecannon really says that. For most conservative writers, CHURCHILL!!1* is too valuable as a conservative icon, especially since Obama replaced a bust of Churchill in the Oval Office with a bust of Lincoln.

*: ‘CHURCHILL!!1’ is used as a way of distinguishing the legends some people believe from the actual historical Winston Churchill.

143 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:26:56pm

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

Germany was building rocket engines, though, and follow-on versions of the ME-163 might have been an answer to any ultra high altitude threat. The other thing to remember is that accuracy from that height against hardened targets would stunk.

The ME-163 was a piss-poor design, more liable to kill its pilot than an American bomber. During the entirety of its service, it accounted for nine confirmed kills. Assuming it could actually reach that altitude, which is questionable, it would have had an endurance measured in minutes to track, close, and kill a bomber that was firing back at it.

And accuracy isn’t really a factor with an atomic bomb.

144 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:28:03pm

re: #133 Gus

So in conclusion. Murica could have defeated barbaric Hitler on its own by killing 1,000,000s of German civilians with atomic bombs — an act which itself would have been considered barbaric.

The US girding itself to essentially fight all of Europe (under German rule and probably champing at the bit to rebel - but the Germans are still extracting resources from it) would have triggered some massive societal changes.

And the Axis would have been pressing for some method to actually affect the US economy directly barring some sort of de facto Cold War setting in where we glared at each other across the bordering oceans and skirmished now and then.

145 Stoatly  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:33:25pm

re: #140 erik_t

Three points, very simple. We have the bomb, we have the bomber, they can’t touch the latter due to basic material science limits. You’re handwaving them away, and I don’t care for it.

One small detail, the US A-bomb was a product of the the UK “Tube Alloys” project as much as the Manhattan project

Link

When there was no reaction from America to the reports of the MAUD Committee, Mark Oliphant crossed the Atlantic in an unheated bomber in August 1941. He found that Lyman Briggs had not circulated the reports to the Uranium Committee, but had kept them in a safe. Oliphant then contacted Ernest Lawrence, James Conant, Enrico Fermi and Arthur Compton and managed to increase the urgency of the American research programmes. The MAUD Reports finally made a big impression. Overnight the Americans changed their minds about the feasibility of an atomic bomb

No UK, no A-bomb

146 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:33:46pm

re: #140 erik_t

Three points, very simple. We have the bomb, we have the bomber, they can’t touch the latter due to basic material science limits. You’re handwaving them away, and I don’t care for it.

OK, what would be the result if all of the Allies disappeared in say 1942? Or 1943?

What I am saying is the US could not defeat Hitler by itself, it had help to set the conditions for the development of technology. Remove that help at any given point and the path the war took, including how that technology developed would have changed.

You can’t have a complex system like a war remain the same when initial conditions are changed. You change initial conditions and suddenly you have a multitude of possible paths.

Could the US have ended the war after the bomb was developed? Yes they could have, but that isn’t defeating Hitler alone any more than a businessman while using the existing infrastructure claiming he did it all himself is accurate.

147 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:37:21pm

re: #133 Gus

So in conclusion. Murica could have defeated barbaric Hitler on its own by killing 1,000,000s of German civilians with atomic bombs — an act which itself would have been considered barbaric because G-d loves us more.

FTFY

148 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:37:38pm

re: #146 b_sharp

OK, what would be the result if all of the Allies disappeared in say 1942? Or 1943?

What I am saying is the US could not defeat Hitler by itself, it had help to set the conditions for the development of technology. Remove that help at any given point and the path the war took, including how that technology developed would have changed.

You can’t have a complex system like a war remain the same when initial conditions are changed. You change initial conditions and suddenly you have a multitude of possible paths.

Could the US have ended the war after the bomb was developed? Yes they could have, but that isn’t defeating Hitler alone any more than a businessman while using the existing infrastructure claiming he did it all himself is accurate.

Some clarification on “disappeared” would also be needed. Do they suddenly develop “neutrality complex”, join the Axis, or what? And why?

149 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:45:46pm

re: #148 Feline Fearless Leader

Some clarification on “disappeared” would also be needed. Do they suddenly develop “neutrality complex”, join the Axis, or what? And why?

Of course it does. It seems to me that when people say the US could have defeated Hitler by themselves they are talking about ending the war, much as was done with Japan, not fighting it.

I have trouble with the idea that bombing Germany into submission with nukes is ‘defeating Hitler by themselves’ without recognizing the previous 6 years of fighting by the Allies as part of the infrastructure to the development of those weapons.

150 Shvaughn  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 1:52:10pm

Why is it so important to minimize the true historical fact that the USSR did play a major role in defeating Hitler?

I’m lost as to why we’re playing “what if” games instead of acknowledging true history.

151 celticdragon  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 2:06:05pm

re: #43 Sol Berdinowitz

I believe the Constitution, if interpreted striclty and in the sense of the Founding Fathers, gives us all the right to own as many muzzle-loading muskets and as much roundshot and black powder as we can store…

If interpreted that way, then the 1st amendment would only apply to actual speech and technology that existed in the 18th century. There would be no free speech protection for telephones, the internet, faxes etc.

152 Tigger2005  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 2:54:13pm

Someday, there will be a reckoning. That’s not an “if” or “maybe.” There WILL be. Deranged hatred on this scale, left unchecked and spreading like a cancer, must either implode or explode. This sort of derangement has always existed in this country, but mostly on the nether fringes. Now it’s being nurtured and fed by the Internet, talk radio and Fox News and increasingly absolutely nothing is off limits. It can’t go on this way. One way or another it has to stop or our country will be destroyed.

153 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 6:08:37pm

re: #151 celticdragon

If interpreted that way, then the 1st amendment would only apply to actual speech and technology that existed in the 18th century. There would be no free speech protection for telephones, the internet, faxes etc.

Agreed. That’s why the musket argument is a non-starter.

Also, it legitimizes “original intent” constitutional interpretation, which is counter-productive.

154 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 7:17:45pm

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

Germany was building rocket engines, though, and follow-on versions of the ME-163 might have been an answer to any ultra high altitude threat. The other thing to remember is that accuracy from that height against hardened targets would stunk.

Close only counts in horseshoes and nuclear weapons.


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Playing guitar with this band is like trying to grow watermelon in Easter hay.