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Creationism Spreading in Schools, Thanks to Vouchers

Religious anti-education getting more public funding
Religion • Views: 22,180

From Zack Kopplin:

I first began investigating creationist school vouchers as my part of my fight against creationism in my home state of Louisiana. Over the past few months, I’ve learned creationist vouchers aren’t just a Louisiana problem—they’re an American problem. School vouchers are, as James Gill recently wrote in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, ‘the answer to a creationist’s prayer.’

Liberty Christian School, in Anderson, Indiana, has field trips to the Creation Museum and students learn from the creationist A Beka curriculum. Kingsway Christian School, in Avon, Indiana, also has Creation Museum field trips. Mansfield Christian School, in Ohio, teaches science through the creationist Answers in Genesis website, run by the founder of the Creation Museum. The school’s Philosophy of Science page says, “the literal view of creation is foundational to a Biblical World View.” All three of these schools, and more than 300 schools like them, are receiving taxpayer money.

So far, I have documented 310 schools, in nine states and the District of Columbia that are teaching creationism, and receiving tens of millions of dollars in public money through school voucher programs.

There is no doubt that there are hundreds more creationist voucher schools that have yet to be identified. The more than 300 schools I have already found are those that have publicly stated on their websites that they teach creationism or use creationist curricula.

More: Creationism Spreading in Schools, Thanks to Vouchers — MSNBC

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512 comments

1 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 5:14:36pm

This really is the main purpose of school vouchers — to allow right wing parents to keep their children ignorant, while the religious schools that teach creationism, climate change denial and other anti-science garbage still get the benefit of state money.

Vouchers are bad for America. They were conceived as a tool to help the religious right maintain their bubble of magical thinking.

2 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 5:17:01pm

RW nonsense thrives on stupidity. Therefore, public education is always a RW target. As a special bonus, the RW nut jobs also get to go after teacher’s unions.

3 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 5:46:08pm

The whole voucher debate is one of the most most pervasive and corrosive ideas from the right. It’s bad for education, fosters class and racial divides, but has a reputation of somehow being “better” than a public school.

There’s a significant number of Democrats who fall for this, too.

4 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 5:49:51pm

re: #3 dragonath

The whole voucher debate is one of the most most pervasive and corrosive ideas from the right. It’s bad for education, fosters class and racial divides, but has a reputation of somehow being “better” than a public school.

There’s a significant number of Democrats who fall for this, too.

Yes, the Democrats need to stand for something. Not being Republicans (i.e., RW nut jobs) is an essential first step, but it is also a terribly low bar.

5 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:06:55pm

It is sad to see children’s minds made into political footballs, no matter who kicks them.

6 freetoken  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:12:30pm

As an example of super-slick sciency derp, here is something CMI just posted today on Youtube:

Homework for the class: find the fallacies.

7 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:13:07pm

Promoted! More good work from Zack Kopplin, rising young anti-creationist.

8 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:15:53pm

re: #5 Ojoe

It is sad to see children’s minds made into political footballs, no matter who kicks them.

I’ll counter the downding, but that was a summoning of the Magical Balance Fairy.

9 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:20:50pm

re: #5 Ojoe

It is sad to see children’s minds made into political footballs, no matter who kicks them.

Tell you what Ojoe I won’t down ding this comment if you can give me one recent example of democrats kicking that particular football…

10 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:25:36pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

I got that. Forced busing.

We all make our own choices here but that looks to me to be a pretty low level comment to get dinged.

11 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:26:44pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Tell you what Ojoe I won’t down ding this comment if you can give me one recent example of democrats kicking that particular football…

What would even count as MBF material here?

12 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:26:58pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Tell you what Ojoe I won’t down ding this comment if you can give me one recent example of democrats kicking that particular football…

Democrats are more like Lucy, James. They’re more into holding the football and pulling it away when Republicans try to kick it.

/I’m kidding, but I couldn’t resist the Peanuts joke.

13 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:27:38pm

re: #10 Political Atheist

I got that. Forced busing.

We all make our own choices here but that looks to me to be a pretty low level comment to get dinged.

I am dubious that redesigning bus routes counts as an example of using children’s minds as a political football.

14 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:28:19pm

re: #10 Political Atheist

I got that. Forced busing.

We all make our own choices here but that looks to me to be a pretty low level comment to get dinged.

This! Forced busing was indeed a case of “children’s minds [being] made into political footballs” by those left-of-center.

15 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:28:43pm

re: #10 Political Atheist

I got that. Forced busing.

We all make our own choices here but that looks to me to be a pretty low level comment to get dinged.

Busing is equivalent to the deliberate perversion of education to provide organized fostering of stupidity?!

Wow.

16 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:28:55pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Democrats are more like Lucy, James. They’re more into holding the football and pulling it away when Republicans try to kick it.

/I’m kidding, but I couldn’t resist the Peanuts joke.

Please the republicans are like Lucy in that every time they offer a compromise or idea and the democrats try to move on it, they suddenly reveal that they hate that idea now that democrats like it, see cap and trade, or the healthcare mandate.

17 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:29:20pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat


Anyone or group who wants power for its own sake will attempt to abuse the minds of others.

18 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:29:38pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

This! Forced busing was indeed a case of “children’s minds [being] made into political footballs” by those left-of-center.

How exactly?

How does what route you take to school seriously affect your mind?

19 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:30:15pm

re: #17 Ojoe

Anyone or group who wants power for its own sake will attempt to abuse the minds of others.

Examples or GFTO.


I do not except Pre MBF banking against future misdeeds.

20 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:30:21pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

How exactly?

How does what route you take to school seriously affect your mind?

Don’t give away free shots — the route is irrelevant. The destinations were everything.

21 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:30:37pm

re: #15 EPR-radar

Busing is equivalent to the deliberate perversion of education to provide organized fostering of stupidity?!

Wow.

Everyone forgets the purpose of busing was to get the perpetually under privileged to the possibility of privilege. HORROR.

22 freetoken  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:31:09pm

The big picture is not to be escaped here.

The push for creationism among the religious right/religious conservatives isn’t coming from out of nowhere. There are reasons they cling to these beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence.

For example, recent blog articles from well read religious circles:

Adam and Eve and Pinch Me

The schedule for the Gospel Coalition’s biennial conference this spring is now available. The line-up makes for interesting reading and it is definitely good to see that the question of Adam and Eve’s historicity will be addressed. It is one of the big questions in the evangelical world at this time. [ And only there, btw.]

[…]

On a somewhat related issue, a little while back I found myself on the receiving end of various critical responses when I wondered aloud on Ref21 about why complementarianism is considered to be a matter of gospel fidelity by groups like TGC. Just for clarification: I am a complementarian. In fact, I am fairly sure that I am stricter (ironically) on the matter in both conviction and in church practice than many in those groups to whom I was alluding. And I hold the position simply because I believe the account of the special creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis and its application by Paul in passages such as 1 Tim. 2:12-14.

[…]

To clear up what is at stake here, let’s go to another religious writer who describes what is at stake (and why he’s not big into the whole issue):

The Promised Follow-up Response to Complementarians (Part 2 of 2)

[…]

What you might hear many complementarians argue for is that God established a clear ‘creation order’ from the beginning in regards to the role of men and women. 1 Timothy 2:12-13 clarifies this by stating:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

Adam was formed first, not Eve. And in God’s good creation order, we are exactly why women can never teach or exercise authority over men. She must be silent in such situations. So the argument goes.

[…]

Literally creationists are out to enforce an ancient social paradigm - Patriarchy. It’s part of that old “worldview” about which I keep harping.

The push to instill creationism into the minds of young people is, among other things, to reinforce the idea that men rule over women.

23 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:31:57pm

re: #20 EPR-radar

It is better exercise to walk, and you arrive at school with oxygenated blood and an alert brain, for one thing. Much better than breathing diesel fumes.

Feh.

24 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:33:53pm

re: #15 EPR-radar

Busing is equivalent to the deliberate perversion of education to provide organized fostering of stupidity?!

Wow.

First, you have to assume residential segregation was not in any way “political mind football’ for the kids affected.

25 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:35:45pm

re: #22 freetoken

Creationism is at least a twofer —- 1) promoting abject stupidity in the population is politically useful for the GOP, and 2) promotion of religious fanaticism/bigotry is also politically useful for the GOP.

26 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:36:11pm

re: #21 Stan the Demanded Plan

Everyone forgets the purpose of busing was to get the perpetually under privileged to the possibility of privilege. HORROR.

The intentions were good, but the idea did not work well. RWC was asked by James FC to come up with an example of where the left had “children’s minds made into political footballs”, and in his opinion and mine forced busing fits the bill. It’s equivalency to school vouchers and creationism is not relevant to the challenge James laid down. Though I will note it was RWC and not Ojoe who answered the challenge with a concrete example.

27 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:37:29pm

re: #13 jamesfirecat

Redesigning bus routes? I think you have no clue what I referred to.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
I lived this damn mess. Kids were taken from horrible neighborhoods with awful violent schools and taken to better schools in a ethnic/social engineering effort. Which would have been fine. Until it was decided kids just like me would have to be taken to those awful schools for “balance”. Sure take those kids brought up in gentle Caucasian suburbia and send them to Watts for school. Add an hour or longer commute to an already challenging education. Take kids from kind neighborhoods to Crips ridden areas. Effing brilliant if you want to subvert the actual learning experience.

It was bullshit. It just let the school system off the hook for improving the bad schools. My parent s chose to buy a home and invest an an area that had good schools. Then LAUSD decided that was not acceptable. It was the worst example of how to desegregate ever.

28 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:37:44pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

The intentions were good, but the idea did not work well. RWC was asked by James FC to come up with an example of where the left had “children’s minds made into political footballs”, and in his opinion and mine forced busing fits the bill. It’s equivalency to school vouchers and creationism is not relevant to the challenge James laid down. Though I will note it was RWC and not Ojoe who answered the challenge with a concrete example.

Also notice that I said “recent” if the best example you can come up with is something that dates back to the sixties, and started to die out pretty heavily by the eighties well that is pretty weak tea.

29 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:38:20pm

re: #24 jaunte

First, you have to assume residential segregation was not in any way “political mind football’ for the kids affected.

Political amnesia 101. To whine most piteously about affirmative action, it is first necessary to forget all advantages accrued by the privileged prior to considering a particular affirmative action program.

30 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:39:21pm

The racist enclaves of american children needed to be broken up. Busing was one way of doing that.

31 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:39:22pm

HOLY DOG OF CHRIST. We are talking about busing.

Anyone got a flag pole to thrust?

32 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:40:22pm

re: #31 Stan the Demanded Plan

HOLY DOG OF CHRIST. We are talking about busing.

Anyone got a flag pole to thrust?

The flashpoint issues of the 60s and 70s never actually went away. That what all this culture war business comes down to.

33 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:41:49pm

Shit we’re still talking about contraception this shit ain’t ever going away it seems.

34 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:42:15pm

re: #32 EPR-radar

Well, that, and we have a black president…

35 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:42:42pm

re: #33 Amory Blaine

Shit we’re still talking about contraception this shit ain’t ever going away it seems.

All I’m thinking is I am going to write a manifesto as my obit.

36 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:45:00pm

re: #33 Amory Blaine

Shit we’re still talking about contraception this shit ain’t ever going away it seems.

By now it is crystal clear that a big chunk of the US only accepts the basic premises of public education if school taxes are used only for their children or for other children that are sufficiently like their children, and if the ideals taught in schools are sufficiently close to their own.

While this isn’t a disaster on its face, excessively narrow views of “sufficiently like” and “sufficiently close” are a problem.

37 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:45:43pm

re: #15 EPR-radar

You moved the goal posts there a bit. Social engineering experiment with kids in school. That’s my context, no more no less. Circa 1970’s through the 1990’s.

38 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:45:55pm

Godwin #64

so i calculate that the godwin increases exponentially in relation to the linear expansion of science and progressive legislation

39 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:46:05pm

re: #34 Dancing along the light of day

Well, that, and we have a black president…

Which means the RW nut baggers are staring defeat right in the face, and it is driving them insane.

40 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:47:46pm

Guys at the risk of being one of those liberals who complains about equality of outcome, I do not get why post 10 is rated at +2 and post 14 is rated at -2 (even after I up dinged it to try and even out things) when both are expressing support for the idea that forced busing was liberals using the minds of children as a political football…

Can my fellow lizards help me figure this out?

41 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:48:24pm

Godwin 101 must be one of the offerings at the “Twitter Gulag”. Better sign up early, it looks like a popular class.

42 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:48:46pm

They consist of massive carbonatites that are mostly devoid of vesicles

that’s what i said but she slapped me

43 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:49:03pm

re: #37 Political Atheist

You moved the goal posts there a bit. Social engineering experiment with kids in school. That’s my context, no more no less. Circa 1970’s through the 1990’s.

I still think it strange to equal a social engineering effort (that had mixed results) with the mainlining of stupidity that is creationism in schools.

Is this seriously an attempt to water creationism in schools down to a “social engineering effort (that might lead to mixed results)”?

44 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:49:43pm

I upding some comments I may not agree with for honest opinion or other thoughts from fellow lizards.

45 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:50:05pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

Guys at the risk of being one of those liberals who complains about equality of outcome, I do not get why post 10 is rated at +2 and post 14 is rated at -2 (even after I up dinged it to try and even out things) when both are expressing support for the idea that forced busing was liberals using the minds of children as a political football…

Can my fellow lizards help me figure this out?

not participating in a busing debate tonight. no.

46 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:51:23pm

re: #21 Stan the Demanded Plan

Everyone forgets the purpose of busing was to get the perpetually under privileged to the possibility of privilege. HORROR.

Hey I wanted those kids to have better opportunities. I had no objection to them in my school at all. Maybe I was atypical, I spent many a weekend at 3rd avenue and slauson where my grandparents lived in south central. I had a diverse upbringing.

What I hated was sending me and my friends down there without any option short of private schooling or home schooling. LAUSD failed at providing good schools in those neighborhoods. Not benign neglect. Dismal mismanagement.

My point is Ojoe had a point-Kids are not pawns for experimentation. By anyone. Not creationists, not anyone.

47 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:51:56pm
48 RadicalModerate  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:54:13pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

This! Forced busing was indeed a case of “children’s minds [being] made into political footballs” by those left-of-center.

I gather by that statement that you support racial segregation then?
Because that is the situation that school busing was designed to attempt to correct.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

49 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:54:36pm

re: #43 EPR-radar

Is this seriously an attempt to water creationism in schools down to a “social engineering effort (that might lead to mixed results)”?

Not at all. It is a call to leave our children out of these arguments and experimentation. I don’t even get why you would see it that way.

50 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:55:20pm

HOLY DOG OF CHRIST

is he the one that taketh away the sims of the whirled?

51 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:55:42pm

re: #41 Amory Blaine

Godwin 101 must be one of the offerings at the “Twitter Gulag”. Better sign up early, it looks like a popular class.

In Soviet Union, Twitter Gulag Godwin’s YOU.

52 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:56:10pm

re: #47 jaunte

America’s Brutal Treatment of Its Struggling Wealthy Class

Look at all the sad faces.

Tragic. I’m surprised the WSJ actually included a case of a retired couple facing no tax increase. Unusual failure of message discipline there.

For most people, the single biggest tax increase is the 2% on the payroll tax, which one assumes the WSJ wouldn’t bother to mention since it relates to icky working class people.

53 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:57:31pm

re: #47 jaunte

America’s Brutal Treatment of Its Struggling Wealthy Class

Look at all the sad faces.

“single parent, two children, income $260,000”

doing what, i’d like to know!

54 bratwurst  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:58:36pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

Guys at the risk of being one of those liberals who complains about equality of outcome, I do not get why post 10 is rated at +2 and post 14 is rated at -2 (even after I up dinged it to try and even out things) when both are expressing support for the idea that forced busing was liberals using the minds of children as a political football…

Can my fellow lizards help me figure this out?

My downding was for this particular lizard’s pathological need to place everything he encounters in this life into a “left” or “right” cubby hole…particularly this idea which received the approval of judges across the political spectrum.

55 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:58:52pm

re: #48 RadicalModerate

I gather by that statement that you support racial segregation then?
Because that is the situation that school busing was designed to attempt to correct.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Jesus Christ, I know DF has a ton of faults but i really havenever got a racist vibe from him. Do we have to jump down his throat just because? I really do not get why he is seeing so much hate, or at least why he is and Politica Aithiest isn’t, since PA was the first one to bring up forced bussing…

56 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 6:59:02pm

re: #49 Political Atheist

Not at all. It is a call to leave our children out of these arguments and experimentation. I don’t even get why you would see it that way.

Busing was implemented to address the issue of segregation in schools. It had its flaws, but doing nothing was not a credible option.

Creationism in schools is not being introduced to address any apparent problem (other than a lack of RW nut baggery in the curriculum, which I think we can agree is not a real problem).

One of these things is not like the other.

57 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:01:37pm

re: #31 Stan the Demanded Plan

HOLY DOG OF CHRIST. We are talking about busing.

Anyone got a flag pole to thrust?

Yeah, what is it, 1972?

58 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:01:54pm

re: #53 engineer cat

“single parent, two children, income $260,000”

doing what, i’d like to know!

The WSJ needed income levels that were high enough to show a noticeable increase in taxes to construct their tale of woe.

Thus is born the farcical single mother of two with $35,000 in investment income.

59 Gus  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:02:40pm
60 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:03:08pm

re: #57 dragonath

Yeah, what is it, 1972?

It most certainly is. Movement conservatism’s reason for existence is to roll back the changes of the 60s and 70s.

61 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:05:07pm

re: #59 Gus

The principal of the Claiborne Christian School, in West Monroe, Louisiana, says in a school newsletter, “Our position at CCS on the age of the Earth and other issues is that any theory that goes against God’s Word is in error.” She also claims that scientists are “sinful men” trying to explain the world “without God” so they don’t have to be “morally accountable to Him.”

Well, that should simplify her healthcare choices.

62 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:05:11pm

re: #58 EPR-radar

The WSJ needed income levels that were high enough to show a noticeable increase in taxes to construct their tale of woe.

Thus is born the farcical single mother of two with $35,000 in investment income.

lol. out of touch and teaching this.

63 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:05:17pm

re: #48 RadicalModerate

I gather by that statement that you support racial segregation then?
Because that is the situation that school busing was designed to attempt to correct.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I decline to answer.

Revised and Extended:

re: #68 jamesfirecat

And a Jesus Christ for you to DF! Is it that hard to take a stand against racism? PA seems to be making a decent case that busing might have been well meaning but have had problems in its execution (an idea that put forth by democrats that was well meaning but problematic to fully implement someone fetch me my fainting couch) but are you really so in love with your self immolation that you can’t take a stand against organized racism?

The problem is James that earlier in my life I was quite afraid of ‘the ghetto’ and badly wanted to keep it at bay, a concern for many young and old in Chicago back in the 1980’s/ early 90’s. I’ve grown up much since then and I now live on the same floor as more than one black condo owner. But I remember how I used to feel and I struggled to put my changing thoughts into words.

So I can say that I oppose segregation now, but that was not always the case.

64 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:05:50pm

I didn’t expect to see that issue brought up (much less brought up as a comparison to creationism!) considering opposition to busing was a key part of Nixon’s Southern Strategy.

65 TedStriker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:06:44pm

re: #52 EPR-radar

Tragic. I’m surprised the WSJ actually included a case of a retired couple facing no tax increase. Unusual failure of message discipline there.

For most people, the single biggest tax increase is the 2% on the payroll tax, which one assumes the WSJ wouldn’t bother to mention since it relates to icky working class people.

Surprising for the Murdoch Mafia.

66 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:07:17pm

re: #56 EPR-radar

False premise-They need not be just like the other.

You like many at the time are okay with one of the most misguided efforts at desegregation ever. The end does not justify the means.

Creationism does not risk a violent outcome. Sending suburb kids to gang territory does take that risk. Some paid the price in injury.

How about this-Fix the crappy schools. That was the other available fix that LAUSD chose not to undertake. And the city turned it’s back on those neighborhoods and it’s citizens too. Which led in the end to riots not just once but twice. Deadly destructive riots.

67 TedStriker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:08:41pm

re: #59 Gus

[Embedded content]

re: #61 jaunte

Well, that should simplify her healthcare choices.

Good gravy, people like this should not be anywhere near a position of authority in a school.

68 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:08:51pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

I decline to answer.

And a Jesus Christ for you to DF! Is it that hard to take a stand against racism? PA seems to be making a decent case that busing might have been well meaning but have had problems in its execution (an idea that put forth by democrats that was well meaning but problematic to fully implement someone fetch me my fainting couch) but are you really so in love with your self immolation that you can’t take a stand against organized racism?

69 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:09:33pm

re: #53 engineer cat

“single parent, two children, income $260,000”

doing what, i’d like to know!

wikipedia puts her in the top 1.5% of income earners

70 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:10:47pm

re: #66 Political Atheist

False premise-They need not be just like the other.

You like many at the time are okay with one of the most misguided efforts at desegregation ever. The end does not justify the means.

Creationism does not risk a violent outcome. Sending suburb kids to gang territory does take that risk. Some paid the price in injury.

How about this-Fix the crappy schools. That was the other available fix that LAUSD chose not to undertake. And the city turned it’s back on those neighborhoods and it’s citizens too. Which led in the end to riots not just once but twice. Deadly destructive riots.

It does not risk a violent outcome but it does risk harming the kids who are exposed to it handicapping them mentally making it so that they and in turn the US in general can not compete on a technological level with the rest of the world,

It is best that we do not forget this as there are ways other than physical violence to harm a child.

71 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:11:56pm

re: #66 Political Atheist

False premise-They need not be just like the other.

You like many at the time are okay with one of the most misguided efforts at desegregation ever. The end does not justify the means.

Creationism does not risk a violent outcome. Sending suburb kids to gang territory does take that risk. Some paid the price in injury.

How about this-Fix the crappy schools. That was the other available fix that LAUSD chose not to undertake. And the city turned it’s back on those neighborhoods and it’s citizens too. Which led in the end to riots not just once but twice. Deadly destructive riots.

Busing was the easier path. Fixing the schools ultimately requires at least partially fixing the culture the student come from. But culture is a very stubborn opponent, and most attempts by politicians to change a culture end in failure. So the politicians take the easy route and hope things get better.

72 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:12:34pm

re: #66 Political Atheist

How about this-Fix the crappy schools. That was the other available fix that LAUSD chose not to undertake. And the city turned it’s back on those neighborhoods and it’s citizens too. Which led in the end to riots not just once but twice. Deadly destructive riots.

Sorry, but from my experience, asking modern conservatives to give an effort towards the improvement of things outside their direct influence is a total dead letter.

73 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:13:03pm
74 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:14:28pm

re: #66 Political Atheist

I have already conceded that busing had its flaws. It remains true that doing nothing about segregation was not an option, and I suspect that improving the schools as you propose was also a political impossibility at the time (it certainly hasn’t gotten any easier to improve schools between now and then).

Putting creationism into schools is the intellectual equivalent of putting anthrax in the school lunch program —- there is no conceivable upside to this. No problem is being solved this way. There is nothing to discuss. It is a no brainer.

This level of absolutism does not apply to the pros and cons of the busing debate, and that is where the MBF falls apart.

Nothing about busing is equivalent to the deliberate destruction of rational thought that is creationism in the schools.

75 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:14:29pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Busing was the easier path. Fixing the schools ultimately requires at least partially fixing the culture the student come from. But culture is a very stubborn opponent, and most attempts by politicians to change a culture end in failure. So the politicians take the easy route and hope things get better.

Some of the culture that needed to get fixed was the culture that let kids grow up in all lilly white school environment thus making it easier to class people of other races as not part of their “tribe” and discriminate against them either as bullying children or as adults who wielded real power.

76 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:15:44pm
77 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:15:51pm

re: #68 jamesfirecat

And a Jesus Christ for you to DF! Is it that hard to take a stand against racism? PA seems to be making a decent case that busing might have been well meaning but have had problems in its execution (an idea that put forth by democrats that was well meaning but problematic to fully implement someone fetch me my fainting couch) but are you really so in love with your self immolation that you can’t take a stand against organized racism?

The problem is James that earlier in my life I was quite afraid of ‘the ghetto’ and badly wanted to keep it at bay, a concern for many young and old in Chicago back in the 1980’s/ early 90’s. I’ve grown up much since then and I now live on the same floor as more than one black condo owner. But I remember how I used to feel and I struggled to put my changing thoughts into words.

So I can say that I oppose segregation now, but that was not always the case.

78 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:17:10pm

You know who else spread lies about his political opponents, calling them traitors and urging people to rise up against them?

79 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:17:28pm

We’re going to discuss if dancing on Sunday should be permitted next.

80 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:18:38pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

The problem is James that earlier in my life I was quite afraid of ‘the ghetto’ and badly wanted to keep it at bay, a concern for many young and old in Chicago back in the 1980’s/ early 90’s. I’ve grown up much since then and I now live on the same floor as more than one black condo owner. But I remember how I used to feel and I struggled to put my changing thoughts into words.

So I can say that I oppose segregation now, but that was not always the case.

Thank you for taking the time to put your feelings into words and express themselves, I do not look down on people for beliefs they held when I was still learning how to tie my shoes (and get the right shoe on the right foot for that matter) what really matters is that as you grew up you matured and came around on the issue.

81 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:18:47pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

Some of the culture that needed to get fixed was the culture that let kids grow up in all Lilly white school environment thus making it easier to class people of other races as not part of their “tribe” and discriminate against them either as bullying children or as adults who wielded real power.

One result of being educated in that kind of privileged environment:
John Mackey thinks Obamacare is “fascism.”
[Link: www.mediaite.com…]

82 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:19:01pm

re: #53 engineer cat

“single parent, two children, income $260,000”

doing what, i’d like to know!

Single mom in [your town, determined by IP mapping] makes $6000/week at home! Find out how!

83 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:19:37pm

re: #79 Amory Blaine

We’re going to discuss if dancing on Sunday should be permitted next.

I do not like it could lead to hand holding.

84 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:21:45pm

re: #82 Vicious Babushka

Single mom in [your town, determined by IP mapping] makes $6000/week at home! Find out how!

Put out an ad telling people to send you $20 for your special program to make money fast.

Wait till the check clears.

Tell them to put out an ad telling people to send them $20 for their special program to make money fast.

85 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:21:59pm

re: #80 jamesfirecat

Thank you for taking the time to put your feelings into words and express themselves, I do not look down on people for beliefs they held when I was still learning how to tie my shoes (and get the right shoe on the right foot for that matter) what really matters is that as you grew up you matured and came around on the issue.

Thanks. I also revised my previous post with the real answer, but left the cop out stricken through so it’s not a cover up. I try to be honest and I thank you for helping me to be so.

86 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:24:33pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

The problem is James that earlier in my life I was quite afraid of ‘the ghetto’ and badly wanted to keep it at bay, a concern for many young and old in Chicago back in the 1980’s/ early 90’s. I’ve grown up much since then and I now live on the same floor as more than one black condo owner. But I remember how I used to feel and I struggled to put my changing thoughts into words.

So I can say that I oppose segregation now, but that was not always the case.

Fucking A Dark.

Scared white people are holding back equality. Absolutely. If you dudes would give it up, imagine.

87 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:24:37pm

Go around asking people if they’re willing to improve the education of people in disadvantaged areas, which is something that would lower crime and save money in the long term for cities everywhere. I guarantee you the answer would test your faith in humanity.

88 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:24:54pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

Thanks. I also revised my previous post with the real answer, but left the cop out stricken through so it’s not a cover up. I try to be honest and I thank you for helping me to be so.

I am all about asking questions, especially the ones with thought provoking answers, even if it caused this thread to take a really weird turn, but that is not your fault and people should not be (solely) jumping your throat because of it.

89 ProBosniaLiberal  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:25:24pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I think I have been honest in my giving the reasons why I am in a one-man minority on a certain issue on this site.

And I do see candidate parties that could be used in any event.

90 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:30:40pm

And the final Godwin of the day, #67

There are many more Godwins that I did not count.

Sleep well, Lizards. If you can.

91 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:31:34pm
92 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:31:51pm

re: #90 Vicious Babushka

And the final Godwin of the day, #67

There are many more Godwins that I did not count.

Sleep well, Lizards. If you can.

I am sure you will have an easy time falling asleep while counting Hitlers..

93 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:31:57pm

Napoleon Dynamite fans will get this..

94 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:35:21pm

re: #93 Mich-again

Napoleon Dynamite fans will get this..

[Embedded content]

Doesn’t look much like Haylie Duff to me.

//

95 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:37:52pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

The problem is James that earlier in my life I was quite afraid of ‘the ghetto’ and badly wanted to keep it at bay, a concern for many young and old in Chicago back in the 1980’s/ early 90’s. I’ve grown up much since then and I now live on the same floor as more than one black condo owner. But I remember how I used to feel and I struggled to put my changing thoughts into words.

So I can say that I oppose segregation now, but that was not always the case.

I attended Illinois Tech in the South Side of Chicago in 1982/83. I remember Freshman Orientation where they warned us not to venture off campus on foot/alone/at night. I grew up hanging out and partying in Detroit, so I’m like.. yeah right. I went all over the place and never had a problem. I still miss the red hot Italian sausages from Joeys at 31st and the Dan Ryan.

96 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:38:47pm
97 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:38:58pm

re: #91 Stan the Demanded Plan

Here it is

For reals. This issue is so irrelevant to the conversation regarding creationism, that it’s amazing anyone would bring it up in 2013- the only people today who benefit from the loaded term “forced busing” are allied with racists. This axe don’t grind no more.

98 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:39:42pm

re: #60 EPR-radar

It most certainly is. Movement conservatism’s reason for existence is to roll back the changes of the 60s and 70s.

That’s the 1860s and 1870s.

99 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:39:45pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Doesn’t look much like Haylie Duff to me.

//

That was the picture he showed Pedro of his imaginary girlfriend.. He never had a chance with Summer Wheatley!

100 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:42:30pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

And now, a swimming pig.

Clever. That is at least as good for MBFing creationism as busing. Well played.

101 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:43:56pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

And now, a swimming pig.

“Looks like meat’s back on the menu, boys!”

/LotR

102 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:45:20pm
103 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:45:48pm

When Pigs Dive

I think I was at that Joe Ely show.

104 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:46:02pm
105 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:46:46pm

re: #102 Charles Johnson

Hi, nice to meet u.

I didn’t come from no monkey!!1

106 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:48:01pm

I’d like to point out the anti-semitism in this curriculum, and the racism in general, to show another reason beyond crippling the US’s scientific capability that this is scary shit. This is the sort of teaching that allows people to grow up and think it’s okay to segregate, to enact special laws against Jews. The state and church together teaching that Jews are evil, that blacks are a different species— it’s dangerous, dangerous stuff.

107 Stanghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:50:38pm

re: #102 Charles Johnson

Hi, nice to meet u.

Oh Jane’s wonderful life!

108 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:53:06pm

re: #106 Obdicut

I’d like to point out the anti-semitism in this curriculum, and the racism in general, to show another reason beyond crippling the US’s scientific capability that this is scary shit. This is the sort of teaching that allows people to grow up and think it’s okay to segregate, to enact special laws against Jews. The state and church together teaching that Jews are evil, that blacks are a different species— it’s dangerous, dangerous stuff.

The RW nutjobs correctly see public education as a vehicle by which certain values can be fostered in children, and are determined to destroy the system if they can’t indoctrinate as they wish.

Meanwhile, RW home schooling curricula can have troubling points of resemblance to what passes for education in places like parts of the middle east.

109 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:55:14pm
110 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:56:03pm

zooooom!

Image: zNTZj.jpg

111 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:57:49pm

For those who missed it earlier

Texas Public School Bible Classes Teach Races Come from Noah’s Sons, Biblical Literalism, 6000-year-old Earth

Instructional material in two school districts teach that racial diversity today can be traced back to Noah’s sons, a long-discredited claim that has been a foundational component of some forms of racism.

Religious bias is common, with most courses taught from a Protestant — often a conservative Protestant — perspective. One course, for example, assumes Christians will at some point be “raptured.” Materials include a Venn diagram showing the pros and cons of theories that posit the rapture before the returning Jesus’ 1,000-year reign and those that place it afterward. In many courses, the perspectives of Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Jews are often left out.

Anti-Jewish bias — intentional or not — is not uncommon. Some courses even portray Judaism as a flawed and incomplete religion that has been replaced by Christianity.

Many courses suggest or openly claim that the Bible is literally true. “The Bible is the written word of God,” students are told in one PowerPoint presentation. Some courses go so far as to suggest that the Bible can be used to verify events in history. One district, for example, teaches students that the Bible’s historical claims are largely beyond question by listing biblical events side by side with historical developments from around the globe.

Course materials in numerous classes are designed to evangelize rather than provide an objective study of the Bible’s influence. A book in one district makes its purpose clear in the preface: “May this study be of value to you. May you fully come to believe that ‘Jesus is the Christ, the son of God.’ And may you have ‘life in His name.’”

A number of courses teach students that the Bible proves Earth is just 6,000 years old.

Students are taught that the United States is a Christian nation founded on the Christian biblical principles taught in their classrooms.

Academic rigor is so poor that many courses rely mostly on memorization of Bible verses and factoids from Bible stories rather than teaching students how to analyze what they are studying. One district relies heavily on Bible cartoons from Hanna-Barbera for its high school class. Students in another district spend two days watching what lesson plans describe a “the historic documentary Ancient Aliens,” which presents “a new interpretation of angelic beings described as extraterrestrials.”

112 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 7:59:03pm

re: #111 Kragar

Ayup. Just like busing, that is.

113 BongCrodny  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:01:13pm

Cribbed from Balloon Juice.

One editorial cartoon, a dozen punchlines.

The United States of Paranoia

114 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:02:42pm

re: #106 Obdicut

I regret only having 1 up ding to give this.

115 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:02:54pm

re: #111 Kragar

For those who missed it earlier

Texas Public School Bible Classes Teach Races Come from Noah’s Sons, Biblical Literalism, 6000-year-old Earth

One district relies heavily on Bible cartoons from Hanna-Barbera for its high school class

All hail the Great Gazoo, Lord of Space

116 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:03:04pm

re: #111 Kragar

Next question on “Are you smarter than a fifth grader?”:

“Compare and contrast pre-millenial dispensationalism with post-millenial dispensationalism. Venn diagrams can be used.”

We’ll clearly win the next space race with strokes of genius like this…

117 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:03:58pm

re: #111 Kragar

From the research report (pdf):

The learning objective for coverage of Genesis 1-2 is the following: “Students will identify and explain the various theories of creation.” A test later asks students to “identify and explain the four major theories of creation discussed in class.” A worksheet asks students to identify those theories by name.

Literal 24-hour Day Theory Day = 24 Hours; Six days of creation

Age/Day Theory Day = extended period of time or age;
Six days or ages of creation.

Alternate Age/Day Theory Creation occurred in six days,
with extended periods of time in between each day.

Mature Earth Theory The earth was created in a mature state; Adam was created as an adult, not a baby.

118 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:04:04pm

re: #113 BongCrodny

Cribbed from Balloon Juice.

One editorial cartoon, a dozen punchlines.

The United States of Paranoia

Brutal and hilarious.

119 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:04:40pm
120 Tigger2  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:05:44pm

re: #119 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Looks like a lot of Police like it.

[Link: www.theiacp.org…]

121 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:07:09pm

re: #106 Obdicut

I’d like to point out the anti-semitism in this curriculum, and the racism in general, to show another reason beyond crippling the US’s scientific capability that this is scary shit. This is the sort of teaching that allows people to grow up and think it’s okay to segregate, to enact special laws against Jews. The state and church together teaching that Jews are evil, that blacks are a different species— it’s dangerous, dangerous stuff.

How much of the GOP support for Israel is based on religious reasons? If they thought there was zero chance of converting Israelis to Christianity, would they be as supportive? hmm.

122 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:07:34pm

re: #120 Tigger2

Looks like a lot of Police like it.

[Link: www.theiacp.org…]

Communists. Who do these people think they are? What would police chiefs know about gun violence?

123 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:10:25pm

re: #113 BongCrodny

Cribbed from Balloon Juice.

One editorial cartoon, a dozen punchlines.

The United States of Paranoia

Accurate Texas map:

Image: texas.jpg

124 Tigger2  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:10:37pm

re: #122 EPR-radar

Teacher Unions must also be Communist, they also like it.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

And those damn socialist DRs like it to.

Harold Pollack@haroldpollack
Doctors for America Applauds President Obama’s Gun Violence Prevention Plan and Ask Congress to Act drsforamerica.org/press-releases…

[Link: www.drsforamerica.org…]

125 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:11:53pm

re: #121 Mich-again

How much of the GOP support for Israel is based on religious reasons? If they thought there was zero chance of converting Israelis to Christianity, would they be as supportive? hmm.

A nontrivial part of the US right wing is supportive of Israel because they think Israel will be a belligerent in the upcoming mideast war they believe will occur as “predicted” in the Book of Revelations.

No Israel = No war.

No war = No rapture.

No rapture = They have to live in the nest they have fouled.

126 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:14:26pm

*Edited*

Time to call it a night. Didn’t contribute here in the main pages today, but hope I raised some hell over in the Page section and on the local papers comment section.

Please, Please heap loads of scorn on the State of Idaho. Because maybe, just maybe, the PTB,s and other morons idiots will get the message.

Hate is not a Virtue.

127 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:14:43pm

re: #123 Lidane

Accurate Texas map:

Image: texas.jpg

128 blueraven  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:16:19pm

Jon Stewart was brutal tonight on how the ATF has been neutered by amendments tacked on to unrelated bills over the years. Very eye-opening and infuriating.

129 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:16:34pm

And keep in mind as creationism creeps into public school curriculum, The GOP nominee in 2012 (Mitt Romney, remember him) made it part of his platform to ease immigration requirements for foreign scientists and engineers to fill the void in demand in the USA. Never did he promote more Science, Technology, Engineering, Math programs for our own education system, nope. We’ll just rely on other countries to educate scientists and then we’ll steal them.

This is what you get when ignorant creationists and business leaders join forces in politics. Dumbing down our education system and our children so they can fill menial jobs and then importing smart educated people from other countries to lead the next generation.

130 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:18:22pm

re: #129 Mich-again

Even if we have plenty of educated US citizens, the powers that be are in favor of importing more. Creating a labor glut is an essential part of maximizing the rate of return on capital.

131 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:19:16pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

The problem is James that earlier in my life I was quite afraid of ‘the ghetto’ and badly wanted to keep it at bay, a concern for many young and old in Chicago back in the 1980’s/ early 90’s. I’ve grown up much since then and I now live on the same floor as more than one black condo owner. But I remember how I used to feel and I struggled to put my changing thoughts into words.

So I can say that I oppose segregation now, but that was not always the case.

Let me tell you something about the ghetto—without getting mad & yelling at you this time—it’s not as scary as you might imagine. Since you mentioned a black condo owner, I’m gonna assume we’re talking about black ghettos.

Before I moved to the East Coast I could’ve counted the black people I knew personally without taking off my shoes (taxi passengers don’t count as one doesn’t really “know” them). There simply weren’t that many in my hometown, so I had little exposure.

Granted, you and I are VERY different in terms of personality (but maybe not so different in others), so that probably colors how I approach things as well as how I digest them—you know what they say, “It’s not what you see, it’s how you look at it.” Anyway, it’s also entirely possible that black ghettos in the NY/NJ area are very different from those in Chicago, LA, the South, etc. It’s also possible that because I’m a woman, and an observably Muslim one, that black folks in the NY/NJ area view me differently (because there are so many Muslims up here, many, many of whom are black).

That said, I’ve lived in black ghettos in both NJ and NY. When I first arrived in NYC, in Red Hook, Brooklyn, I was staying with some Muslim women acquaintances. One of them, a Palestinian, had this crazy Puerto Rican friend who was married to a fellow Palestinian and was also a native Brooklynite (she wasn’t Muslim). Her first words of advice to me about surviving in New York were (insert heavy classic Brooklyn accent): “Just act like you belong wherever you’re at. Own it. Don’t act paranoid, don’t act lost or confused, and don’t take any shit from anyone. Do that and you’ll be fine. I promise.” She was right.

In Brooklyn, my move to the ghetto was by necessity: I had little money, had just gotten a job, and took the first tiny apartment I could afford. It was right next to a huge housing project—we’re talking about nightly gunshots being “normal” (after a while you stop worrying about them unless they sound like they’re really close). Along with black Americans there were also lots of people from the Caribbean (West Indians, Jamaicans, etc.) in the neighborhood. There were 3 or 4 Muslims in my apartment building.

It wasn’t all that bad. I had to walk about 3 (pretty dark) blocks to get to the subway (I was working a graveyard shift in Queens), but you know what? No one ever bothered me. There were people milling about in the street 24/7, so I never felt creeped out (like I sometimes did in Manhattan or Queens where it can feel positively desolate late at night).

Sure there were lots of young guys swaggering around dressed in baggy pants and all that, but it was the fashion. In fact, whenever I stopped one them to asked about something, they were unfailingly respectful & helpful. Not a single person ever bothered me in the 6 months I lived there. The only people that got in trouble were those who were engaged in shady activities. Everyone knew who was who and who was doing what—if people knew you were just a working stiff who minded your own business, they left you alone (others looked out for you).

I’d tell you about the ghetto in Jersey City, which I ended up living in by accident (I was still a newbie & unaware of how hard it is to find a good, affordable apartment in the NY/NJ area), but I’m running out of space. Suffice it to say that the same rules applied, more or less. HTH

132 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:21:12pm
133 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:21:53pm

re: #121 Mich-again

How much of the GOP support for Israel is based on religious reasons? If they thought there was zero chance of converting Israelis to Christianity, would they be as supportive? hmm.

I may or may not need a tinfoil hat adjustment in this area, but I’ve long thought that the reason for the GOP’s unquestioning support of Israel has to do with End-Times / Second Coming fantasies.

134 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:22:10pm

re: #132 Lidane

Speaking of which, the Eagles hired Chip Kelly. I thought he was going to go back to Oregon.

135 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:22:38pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Busing was the easier path. Fixing the schools ultimately requires at least partially fixing the culture the student come from. But culture is a very stubborn opponent, and most attempts by politicians to change a culture end in failure. So the politicians take the easy route and hope things get better.

The really right thing to do is often the hard thing. Well that’s why we have a government. To do the hard things that are not commercial. Or personal. They gotta do the big hard things. And when that goes awry, well face it squarely.

That experience taught me my current attitude about the parties and politics. That’s where I got my indy/contrary streak. I was too young to vote or take signatures. But I could stuff envelopes and make phone calls as a participant in the process. Heady stuff at 16 years old in the mid ‘70’s.

136 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:24:19pm

re: #130 EPR-radar

Even if we have plenty of educated US citizens, the powers that be are in favor of importing more. Creating a labor glut is an essential part of maximizing the rate of return on capital.

Well how can they create a glut in the scientific / technical labor force while at the same time they are undermining science education and doing all they can to put college out of reach for so many American kids.

137 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:30:57pm

re: #130 EPR-radar

A lot of businesses really didn’t like when we had low unemployment awhile back, they found it far too constraining to actually have to pay worthwhile salaries, so they’re doing what they can to stop that from happening again.

138 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:31:10pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

Busing. For Pete’s sake.

I’m sorry ‘bout that. I felt Ojoe was taking some unfair heat and I responded from my own real experience here in the valley.

139 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:32:06pm
140 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:34:01pm

re: #131 CuriousLurker

The Palestinian shop-keeper in the Tenderloin, where I lived for awhile— which is kind of too small to be a ghetto but is a really terrible neighborhood— was one of the nicest guys i ever met. So was the guy who ran the junk store down the street. There were plenty of cracked-out shitheads around, but there were also various South-East Asian families calmly walking through the chaos, because living there was cheap and they came from much worse and more dangerous places.

I am very glad I don’t live there anymore, and it was depressing, but the people that stick in my mind are Fouzi and Bill and the other cool guys, not the random parade of addicts and con-men.

141 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:35:11pm

re: #133 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I may or may not need a tinfoil hat adjustment in this area, but I’ve long thought that the reason for the GOP’s unquestioning support of Israel has to do with End-Times / Second Coming fantasies.

There’s an interesting story about Alvin “Sergeant” York and his conversion from fundamentalist isolationist to a fairly inclusive interventionist. He had to be convinced that associating with Jews wouldn’t damn his soul.

[Harry] Warner’s patriotism and religious zeal impressed York, who came to admire and respect Jews. His empathy for the plight of the Jews, as he became more aware of the situation in Europe, fits squarely within one fundamentalist Christian tradition. His original belief regarded the Jews as perverse and wicked, but he easily rationalized his change of heart by embracing Zionism as a means of heralding the Parousia.

There’s deep roots to this kind of thinking, the modern form no doubt a convenience arising out of the Second World War. And even in the 40s (and early 50s) with Joe McCarthy, there are shades of the “Jewish Communist” meme pervasive among isolationists a decade before.

142 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:36:11pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

re: #131 CuriousLurker

P.S. Shorter version? The people in black (or any other) ghettos are just people. Sure they talk & dress different than you do, but most of them are decent folks just struggling to get by and raise the families they love. It’s really that simple.

Next time you feel uneasy, just pretend that you’re visiting a foreign country with a different culture because that’s all it really is—surface differences. We all bleed red when injured, and we all weep salty tears when sad. As the Sufis would say, “Say I am you.” We’re all one, D_F.

143 Gus  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:37:04pm

12-year-old girl becomes third fatality of shooting at Hazard college

HAZARD — A 12-year-old girl who was shot in a parking lot at Hazard Community and Technical College died Wednesday, a day after her father and cousin were killed in the same shooting.

The man accused of killing the three bought the gun that he allegedly used just hours earlier and only one day after he and one of the victims had a court hearing in a dispute over custody of their son.

Dalton Lee Stidham, 21, of Perry County is charged with murder in the death of his ex-girlfriend, Caitlin Paige Cornett, 20. He allegedly shot her when they met at 6 p.m. Tuesday so he could return their son, 2-year-old Jaydien Miller, after a court-ordered visit…

144 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:38:34pm

re: #140 Obdicut

The Palestinian shop-keeper in the Tenderloin, where I lived for awhile— which is kind of too small to be a ghetto but is a really terrible neighborhood— was one of the nicest guys i ever met. So was the guy who ran the junk store down the street. There were plenty of cracked-out shitheads around, but there were also various South-East Asian families calmly walking through the chaos, because living there was cheap and they came from much worse and more dangerous places.

I am very glad I don’t live there anymore, and it was depressing, but the people that stick in my mind are Fouzi and Bill and the other cool guys, not the random parade of addicts and con-men.

LOL, yes! It’s the great people you meet, the characters, that stick with you. To this day my son still reminisces about those times.

145 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:38:54pm

re: #133 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I may or may not need a tinfoil hat adjustment in this area, but I’ve long thought that the reason for the GOP’s unquestioning support of Israel has to do with End-Times / Second Coming fantasies.

From Kragar’s link in 111:

Reading, Writing & Religion II
Texas Public School Bible Courses in 2011 – 12

The deicide motif is explicit in an essay
distributed to students in Dalhart ISD. A
handout taken from raptureready.com attempts to
incorporate Daniel 9:24-27 into detailed calculations
about history’s steady progression towards the
end of the age. “No prophecy in all of Scripture is
more critical to our understanding of the end times
than these four verses,” according to the article.
Expounding on Daniel’s 9:26’s reference to the
“messiah” being “cut off,” it explains:

It wasn’t the killing the Messiah that put the
Jews at odds with God.
After all He came to
die for them. No. It’s that in killing Him, they
refused to let his death pay for their sins so He
could save them. This had the effect of making
His death meaningless to them. That’s what
severed the relationship.

The writer attributes the destruction of Jerusalem
and the Jewish temple by the Romans and the
scattering of Jews around the world as a result
of Jesus’ crucifixion but assures that when Jesus
establishes his kingdom on earth, “Israel will finally
have her Kingdom back and will live in peace with
God in her midst forever.”

Section 10, 46

146 engineer cat  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:39:28pm

the literal view of creation is foundational to a Biblical World

don’t they know that this country was founded on a middle earth literalist world view that teaches that frodo came to warn us about the dangers of power?

why, the constitution is based on that very principal!

147 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:39:50pm

re: #143 Gus

12-year-old girl becomes third fatality of shooting at Hazard college

Ugh. I read about that earlier today. Made me really sad & angry

148 Gus  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:40:14pm

re: #145 jaunte

From Kragar’s link in 111:

Reading, Writing & Religion II
Texas Public School Bible Courses in 2011 – 12

Oh look. It’s the 1960s all over again. I grew up with that and we were Catholic. Not that we took all too seriously though.

149 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:40:22pm

My kids were lucky to go to a local public school that is actually racially integrated with no clear majority of any race. Close to 50-50. That is highly unusual in the Metro Detroit area. I would estimate 90% of the schools within 50 miles are 90-10 one way or the other.

I have family and friends who were too afraid to send their children to a school like that so they shelled out $8K a year or more to send them to a private school where they could be in a lily white environment. So stupid.

150 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:41:38pm
151 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:42:02pm

re: #138 Political Atheist

I’m sorry ‘bout that. I felt Ojoe was taking some unfair heat and I responded from my own real experience here in the valley.

I didn’t get bused, but I was in southern California around the same time and earlier.

The only real solution to segregated schools would be to integrate the neighborhoods. That would be hard.

You say they should have fixed the crappy schools. That wasn’t (isn’t) going to happen as long as they were (are) segregated. The crappiness was because of the segregation. You couldn’t leave them segregated and fix them.

A lot of people suffered during the busing efforts. The ones who aren’t white suffered disproportionately before and after, too.

152 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:42:18pm
153 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:42:22pm

re: #142 CuriousLurker

re: #131 CuriousLurker

P.S. Shorter version? The people in black (or any other) ghettos are just people. Sure they talk & dress different than you do, but most of them are decent folks just struggling to get by and raise the families they love. It’s really that simple.

Next time you feel uneasy, just pretend that you’re visiting a foreign country with a different culture because that’s all it really is—surface differences. We all bleed red when injured, and we all weep salty tears when sad. As the Sufis would say, “Say I am you.” We’re all one, D_F.

Better yet, just do the Shambala dance. ;o)

154 ProBosniaLiberal  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:43:21pm

re: #151 wrenchwench

I think the solution might be to do what happened with Montreal up North.

Forced Amalgamation of the suburbs into the main city.

155 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:45:29pm

re: #149 Mich-again

I would revise that estimate to say 95% of the schools are 95-5 in ratio. And even that might be a stretch. A lot of the school systems are 100-0 one way or the other.

156 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:45:49pm

re: #140 Obdicut

We’re going through a rough period economically right now. My wife grew up upper middle class - her father was one of the most successful organizers for the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and brought home a good salary as he helped others get a living one. I grew up a wee bit less well off ;)

And over the years I’ve lived with the places like you and CL talk of. I’ve also been on the edge of a neighborhood sliding into real nastiness. My last year in Madison I had a CCW even though it was only legal for the last couple of months. The next door houses got shot up once and there were too many other incidents. In a real way I am grateful that our home was foreclosed.

Now, we’re up north. It’s a small american town full of all the good and bad that entails. I prefer it. And that CCW was sold.

157 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:47:11pm

re: #135 Political Atheist

The really right thing to do is often the hard thing. Well that’s why we have a government. To do the hard things that are not commercial. Or personal. They gotta do the big hard things. And when that goes awry, well face it squarely.

That experience taught me my current attitude about the parties and politics. That’s where I got my indy/contrary streak. I was too young to vote or take signatures. But I could stuff envelopes and make phone calls as a participant in the process. Heady stuff at 16 years old in the mid ‘70’s.

They thing is that government is made up of people, and the people who head it are elected by the public. So city councils and school boards are sensitive to public perceptions, and try to avoid actions likely to visibly fail or that incite public anger.

But separate from that but directly related to segregation and its unmaking is the fact that some aspects of cultural change at some times simply cannot be forced. Busing was not able to correct many of the problematic aspects of the culture of both white and black neighborhoods*. Many of the cultural issues could not in fact have been solved by government, given the limits on government in the US. All the government can do is make sure everyone’s rights are respected and help get people a fair chance, which might effect the cultural changes in the long term. But cultural problems aren’t normally amenable to short-term solutions, and it is the short term in which people live and the mid term in which they vote. (heh.)

*: This is not an attempt to invoke the MBF or to be racist. I’d ask this point be accept as ‘made in good faith’ and left at that.

158 bubba zanetti  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:48:03pm

Check out this “It’s not terrorism when True Americans do it” craziness:

[Link: www.bob-owens.com…]

The wingnut singularity seems to be approaching.

(h/t alicublog)

159 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:48:07pm

re: #151 wrenchwench

+1 for a shared experience. Such a complicated and difficult time and place.

160 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:49:26pm

re: #154 ProBosniaLiberal

I think the solution might be to do what happened with Montreal up North.

Forced Amalgamation of the suburbs into the main city.

I’m not familiar with that.

Forced anything is usually bad for someone.

I like the practice of building neighborhoods of various kinds of housing, instead of all one kind. Some apartments, houses of all sizes, some assisted living, that’s the kind of thing that can keep people feeling like we’re all one.

161 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:50:22pm

re: #159 Political Atheist

+1 for a shared experience. Such a complicated and difficult time and place.

Maybe a shared experience, but I was stuffing envelopes for the other side.

162 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:51:02pm

re: #156 William Barnett-Lewis

We’re going through a rough period economically right now. My wife grew up upper middle class - her father was one of the most successful organizers for the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and brought home a good salary as he helped others get a living one. I grew up a be less well off ;)

And over the years I’ve lived with the places like you and CL talk of. I’ve also been on the edge of a neighborhood sliding into real nastiness. My last year in Madison I had a CCW even though it was only legal for the last couple of months. The next door houses got shot up once and there were too many other incidents. In a real way I am grateful that our home was foreclosed.

Now, we’re up north. It’s a small american town full of all the good and bad that entails. I prefer it. And that CCW was sold.

I don’t think anyone wants to stay in the ghetto (except maybe the criminals). I know I didn’t. I have lots of funny stories from that time, but I don’t mean to romanticize it—there was plenty of bad stuff and much struggling. Sadly, not everyone has the means to get out. Sometimes getting out is just pure luck, being in the right place at the right time and making a mad dash for an open door.

163 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:51:59pm

re: #151 wrenchwench

I didn’t get bused, but I was in southern California around the same time and earlier.

The only real solution to segregated schools would be to integrate the neighborhoods. That would be hard.

You say they should have fixed the crappy schools. That wasn’t (isn’t) going to happen as long as they were (are) segregated. The crappiness was because of the segregation. You couldn’t leave them segregated and fix them.

A lot of people suffered during the busing efforts. The ones who aren’t white suffered disproportionately before and after, too.

Integrating the neighborhoods wasn’t going to happen, simply because the white populations of cities and suburbs weren’t going to accept it. To many would simply leave and there’d be some other city in another state that would welcome them. The change in culture couldn’t happen quickly because some many were opposed to it and those people’s votes would have shut the change down or they would have left for someplace where they could live as they wanted to live.

164 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:52:00pm
165 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:52:44pm

re: #151 wrenchwench

The only real solution to segregated schools would be to integrate the neighborhoods. That would be hard.

You say they should have fixed the crappy schools. That wasn’t (isn’t) going to happen as long as they were (are) segregated. The crappiness was because of the segregation. You couldn’t leave them segregated and fix them.

QFT

166 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:53:07pm

re: #158 bubba zanetti

Check out this “It’s not terrorism when True Americans do it” craziness:

[Link: www.bob-owens.com…]

The wingnut singularity seems to be approaching.

Anarchists.

167 ProBosniaLiberal  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:53:18pm

re: #160 wrenchwench

Got a better idea to get money back into city schools then? Think of it as a “White Flight Tax.”

There also need to be an effort to constrict Private Schools. Hell, let’s make an effort to be like Norway, and wipe them out completely.

168 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:53:27pm

re: #136 Mich-again

Well how can they create a glut in the scientific / technical labor force while at the same time they are undermining science education and doing all they can to put college out of reach for so many American kids.

Easy peasy. Import skilled labor able to work for 1/3 the going rate in the US. US graduates in these fields will either get underpaid, or become unemployed/underemployed.

169 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:55:03pm

re: #158 bubba zanetti

Check out this “It’s not terrorism when True Americans do it” craziness:

[Link: www.bob-owens.com…]

The wingnut singularity seems to be approaching.

Idiot thinks he’ll have gas for his 4-wheeler sabotage ride if he shuts down the power grid.

170 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:57:37pm

re: #167 ProBosniaLiberal

All that ends up doing is leading to worse violence. You’re trying to force together people who don’t want to be near each other, and moreover you’re building a intrusive government that is certain it knows whats best of its citizens. Government should not engage in that sort of forcible social engineering.

171 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:57:38pm

re: #136 Mich-again

Well how can they create a glut in the scientific / technical labor force while at the same time they are undermining science education and doing all they can to put college out of reach for so many American kids.

A more systematic answer to this question is that the capabilities of the US work force are largely irrelevant to the RW agenda. It is assumed that imported labor and/or outsourcing the jobs can take care of all business needs.

Thus creationist stupidity may not actually be “bad for business” in their view.

172 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:58:20pm
173 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:58:55pm

re: #168 EPR-radar

Easy peasy. Import skilled labor able to work for 1/3 the going rate in the US. US graduates in these fields will either get underpaid, or become unemployed/underemployed.

It doesn’t work like that. The kids from India and other countries are not going to settle for $20K starting salaries while American kids are getting $60K.

174 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:59:19pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

I think a “not” is missing in the last line here, unless there has been a sudden conversion :-)

175 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 8:59:23pm

Dear RWNJs,

You can stop with the Godwin fails any time now. Really. The shit’s getting old.

No love,
Me

176 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:00:24pm

re: #173 Mich-again

It doesn’t work like that. The kids from India and other countries are not going to settle for $20K starting salaries while American kids are getting $60K.

1/3 is probably an exaggeration, but I’m sure there is a significant down draft on wages via outsourcing and importing labor.

177 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:00:51pm

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

Integrating the neighborhoods wasn’t going to happen, simply because the white populations of cities and suburbs weren’t going to accept it. To many would simply leave and there’d be some other city in another state that would welcome them. The change in culture couldn’t happen quickly because some many were opposed to it and those people’s votes would have shut the change down or they would have left for someplace where they could live as they wanted to live.

As a sociology major, I gotta comment on your use of the word ‘culture’. I think you’re using it to mean more than one thing, or as a broad term to encompass a lot of different things, and I think some of those things were simply racism and privilege and the results of a system in which those things were institutionalized.

178 jaunte  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:01:02pm

re: #175 Lidane

You know who else beat dead horses?

179 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:01:53pm

re: #174 EPR-radar

I think a “not” is missing in the last line here, unless there has been a sudden conversion :-)

Thank you, correction made.

180 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:01:57pm

re: #161 wrenchwench

That’s cool. I like that we both cared enough to step up. I’m done arguing the point. Good folks do come to separate conclusions. :-) Leaving it be-one face palm will do for me and my admittedly contrary ways.

181 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:02:24pm

re: #178 jaunte

You know who else beat dead horses?

HITLER!

182 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:02:59pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

As a sociology major, I gotta comment on your use of the word ‘culture’. I think you’re using it to mean more than one thing, or as a broad term to encompass a lot of different things, and I think some of those things were simply racism and privilege and the results of a system in which those things were institutionalized.

Racism is still part of culture. It’s a malignant part, though, and I mean that literally.

183 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:03:00pm

Uh-oh, my feline overlords have just notified me that my ‘puter time has expired for the day and it’s now snuggle with the kittehs time (or else).

Have a good night, all.

184 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:04:19pm

re: #181 Kragar

HITLER!

Nope, that would be the artillery men of the division Hitler was part of in WWI. Hitler himself was a runner, carrying messages between officers.

185 Lidane  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:05:26pm

re: #178 jaunte

You know who else beat dead horses?

The Corleone family?

186 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:05:40pm

re: #176 EPR-radar

1/3 is probably an exaggeration, but I’m sure there is a significant down draft on wages via outsourcing and importing labor.

I think the GOP has some offshoot of the Laffer curve where they know there are trade-offs between: 1) Promoting genuine science education in the USA to create more technical graduates 2) Promoting creationism which attracts ignorant voting blocs to the GOP.

The trick is to find the maximized point on that curve. If it falls low, then the backup plan is to have flexibility to allow more immigration for technical labor. Thus the Mitt Romney platform.

187 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:06:41pm

re: #178 jaunte

You know who else beat dead horses?

Glenn Beck?

188 dragonath  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:09:36pm

Anyone going to the inauguration?

189 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:09:48pm

I don’t know how many of you know about the Wedge Document from the Discovery Institute. While vouchers (aka “school choice”) are not mentioned in particular, they fit in well with the general intention to remake public education into an arm of the Christian Right.

While the Wedge strategy is aimed particularly at science education, the end result has been an overall attack on anything the Christian Right deems “un-godly.” The whole David Barton-style revisionism of history is just one example.

I’ve reviewed some of the textbooks favored by these yokels. They are horribly written and pedagogically awful, even setting aside the scientific inaccuracy and religious content.

Since they can’t get their way easily (eventually school boards and parents reject their Christianizing efforts), the next best thing is to push vouchers aka “school choice.” These were already favored by more secular proponents of school reform as a way to give concerned parents the opportunity to send their kids to private or parochial schools. Since then, the whole voucher idea has been co-opted by the Religious Right to continue their fight to co-opt public education.

It fits in really well with the Seven Mountains strategy of the Dominionists.

This is not like busing. Busing was a pragmatic, Band-Aid solution to an endemic problem of separate, but unequal education. Vouchers are part of a wholesale takeover of American public education.

190 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:10:12pm

re: #188 dragonath

Anyone going to the inauguration?

Fuck no. I’ve been to DC in winter. I know better.

191 ProBosniaLiberal  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:10:32pm

Scientology seems to be beginning to collapse.

Hopefully, after this, we can take a closer look at Joesph Smith.

192 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:12:37pm

re: #186 Mich-again

I think the GOP has some offshoot of the Laffer curve where they know there are trade-offs between: 1) Promoting genuine science education in the USA to create more technical graduates 2) Promoting creationism which attracts ignorant voting blocs to the GOP.

The trick is to find the maximized point on that curve. If it falls low, then the backup plan is to have flexibility to allow more immigration for technical labor. Thus the Mitt Romney platform.

That might be giving the GOP too much credit. I think the considerations are simpler. 1) Science education bad (because educated people tend not to vote for the GOP, or start believing in climate change). 2) Importing labor and/or outsourcing good (maximize profit, make working class more desperate). 3) Victory.

There doesn’t seem to be any need for a trade-off. I realize the GOP platform does not exactly read this way (yet), but the GOP policy proposals are pretty consistent with this.

193 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:16:19pm

re: #189 wheat-dogghazi

100% agreed. Creationism and its fellow travelers in the RW dream curriculum (scientific racism, neo-confederate bullshit, etc). are 100% malignant.

That is why I was so surprised at the MBF —- sure busing is a debatable issue, but to MBF it with creationism is to say that creationism is a debatable issue, which it simply is not.

194 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:16:39pm

re: #189 wheat-dogghazi

I don’t know how many of you know about the Wedge Document from the Discovery Institute. While vouchers (aka “school choice”) are not mentioned in particular, they fit in well with the general intention to remake public education into an arm of the Christian Right.

While the Wedge strategy is aimed particularly at science education, the end result has been an overall attack on anything the Christian Right deems “un-godly.” The whole David Barton-style revisionism of history is just one example.

I’ve heard of that.

Excellent comment. The whole thing, not just the part I quoted.

195 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:18:29pm

re: #193 EPR-radar

100% agreed. Creationism and its fellow travelers in the RW dream curriculum (scientific racism, neo-confederate bullshit, etc). are 100% malignant.

That is why I was so surprised at the MBF —- sure busing is a debatable issue, but to MBF it with creationism is to say that creationism is a debatable issue, which it simply is not.

The really weird part is that it was RWC and I who brought the issue forwards and we were responding to somethings said to Ojoe. No equivalence was intended, but things kind of snowballed.

196 EPR-radar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:23:09pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

The really weird part is that it was RWC and I who brought the issue forwards and we were responding to somethings said to Ojoe. No equivalence was intended, but things kind of snowballed.

And we end up pretty much where we started (#15 is where I jumped in).

197 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:30:56pm

Good Night, All.

198 Interesting Times  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:32:15pm

re: #185 Lidane

Oh hai. In addition to your Male Sarah Palin governor, did you know the judges in Texas appear to be evil, malignant, corrupt douchebags?

A Texas state judge is promoting his recent decisions favoring a gas driller in its dispute with a local landowner as part of his election campaign, a move some legal scholars say may violate state judicial ethics rules.

May violate? May? Read the whole thing. This disgusting creep ruled in favor of the gas driller (wanna take a guess how much they donated to his campaign?) in every manner possible in this case, including forcing an environmental blogger to turn over all her emails. And to top off this steaming shit pile with a lovely rat poison pellet, he’s also a limbaugh fan:

Loftin, who is campaigning to keep his state judgeship in a county west of Dallas, also sent out materials with the image of talk show host Rush Limbaugh, who credited the judge’s ruling in favor of driller Range Resources Corp. (RRC), based in Fort Worth, Texas, for getting the EPA to reverse course.

Seems appropriate, come to think of it - gas driller Range Resources poisons wells literally, while limbaugh does so figuratively.

199 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:33:09pm

Hey all, I wish Jimmah Kudos on his upgrade to the front page.

I wish I had it in me to discuss the topic.

I’ve just spent the last few hours reviewing the proposed legislation in Illinois regarding guns.

I printed and marked-up the most comprehensive of these: IL SB0042. At least I think it is the most comprehensive. I can’t stand to do anymore tonite.

Mostly because I don’t see much need. Because nothing is banned. There is a newly authorized Registration system for Semi-Auto “Assault” weapons, .50 Calibur Rifles and their accoutrements, and Large (Over-10 rounds) capacity projectile feeding devices.

The State Police are given a limited amount of time to get the system up and running. I assume the Computer Software has already been chosen and is just waiting for contract to be signed. Even so, I don’t see it getting done in the time provided, IF the legislation is passed reasonably intact. I could be wrong.

So, Illinois is not going to go do-to-door for anyone’s guns in the near future.

There is one other piece of legislation that was put forth and is in the Rules Committee that I found interesting.. A technical change that UNDERLINES a word. It took me a few minutes to register the change.

How has your evening been?

200 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:35:12pm

re: #189 wheat-dogghazi

Ah yes, the Wedge Document. That was greatly dissected a while back here on LGF. Probably a good idea to review it.

201 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:36:16pm

It’s starting! It’s starting!

It’s now illegal (again) for women to ride bicycles

Oh, wait.

in North Korea.

The country’s leader Kim Jung Un reinstated his father’s absurd law, but only after he lifted the ban last year.

[…]

Can Obama be far behind? Get a bicycle now, before it’s too late!!!

202 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:41:29pm

re: #194 wrenchwench

Thanks. I used to be a high school science teacher, so this subject hits close to home. There are many science teachers out there who really want to teach real science, but fear the backlash. Getting through dogmatic Donna’s or stubborn Steve’s head that the Bible is not the “textbook” we are going to use in science class is only one part of the problem.

203 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:46:36pm

So yeah, every wingnut I’ve talked to today since Obama’s proposals were made public is going on at length to me about how the bans are so wrong, unconstitutional and so forth. But when I press them to point to anything else he proposed today that is objectionable…absolute silence. Even all the pearl-clutching and fainting spells over the talk about executive orders has gone nowhere.

204 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:49:44pm

Tonight’s 40k trivia:

Ciaphas Cain

Ciaphas Cain was an Imperial Guard Commissar. He was in active service during the last century of the 41st Millennium, and was over 200 Terran years old when he was recalled into service during the 13th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler. It is certain that he survived more than a quarter of a century into the 42nd Millennium. Imperial propaganda made him out to be a great hero of the Imperium of Man in the late 41st Millennium, although in truth he was primarily focused on his own survival during his long career. However, Cain differed from many other Imperial Commissars in that he would not readily sacrifice his soldiers unless it ensured his own survival. Cain tried his utmost to avoid engaging in actual combat, but usually was required to do so to maintain his status as a Hero of the Imperium, which ironically would involve him in more dangerous situations than any he would usually have seen as a simple Commissar. He was responsible for many successful campaigns throughout his career and retired to become an instructor for new Imperial Commissars at a Schola Progenium.

And his ever faithful aide, Ferik Jurgen

Ferik Jurgen was a Gunner First Class of the Imperial Guard’s Valhallan Ice Warriors regiments who served for many standard decades as Commissar Ciaphas Cain’s adjutant. He was first assigned as Cain’s adjutant after Cain graduated from the Schola Progenium and was given his first assignment to serve with the 12th Valhallan Field Artillery on the world of Desolatia IV. Despite his less than savoury appearance, a general lack of basic interpersonal skills, and a case of body ordour that could overwhelm a Carnifex, Jurgen proved indispensable to Cain in the course of his career. Jurgen was truly defined by his fierce bravery, an unwavering sense of loyalty to his patron no matter the odds, his ability to withstand any situation (save for flying) without complaint, and the fact that he was a rare psychic Blank, possessed of the anti-psyker Pariah Gene. This last ability saved Cain and many of his allies and others under his command from daemonic and psychic attacks at main of the most desperate times in the famed Commissar’s career. Remarkably, but not surprisingly, in all of the accounts of Cain’s heroism recounted publicly as Imperial propaganda, Jurgen is not mentioned at all, though his actions are recorded in the more truthful autobiographical accounts of the events that marked his career that Caiphas Cain himself authored and that were edited by the Inquisitor Amberley Vail.

205 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:50:07pm

re: #203 Targetpractice

So yeah, every wingnut I’ve talked to today since Obama’s proposals were made public is going on at length to me about how the bans are so wrong, unconstitutional and so forth. But when I press them to point to anything else he proposed today that is objectionable…absolute silence. Even all the pearl-clutching and fainting spells over the talk about executive orders has gone nowhere.

It’s all about the DRAMA.

I just posted a synopsis of what I wrote above on my fb and linked the Illinois Senate Bill. I was told that the States are trying to rush thru legislation that is even more stringent that the (insert Godwin of your choice) EXECUTIVE ORDERS Obama signed today.

I’m just going to keep linking the source documents. Not much else one can do.

206 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:53:31pm

Oh I forgot, Obama is going to GIVE all this POWER to Eric Holder. That has a lot of people all up in arms.

207 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:56:24pm

Professor James Tracy says he’s facing university probe over Newtown conspiracy

A tenured professor who controversially claimed the mass shooting in Newtown, Connecticut never happened is worried that he may now lose his job.

Florida Atlantic University professor James Tracy told the university’s student newspaper that the university plans to have a meeting with him later this week regarding his conspiracy theory, which he published online.

“They’re getting people calling them saying that this person shouldn’t be teaching, he’s an awful person and what have you, so I think that they have to do something,” Tracy told University Press.

“I don’t know what there’s going to be. I don’t know if that would involve stripping me of my tenure and dismissing me, or what. That’s something that’s ultimately for them to decide.”

Last month, Tracy claimed the tragic shooting of 20 young schoolchildren in Newtown could be part of a conspiracy to push for gun control. He went so far to question whether the shooting even actually happened, or was just an invention of Obama and the media.

I hope he is fired and shunned by every reputable institution.

He could always teach at Liberty U.

208 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:56:50pm

re: #205 FemNaziBitch

It’s all about the DRAMA.

I just posted a synopsis of what I wrote above on my fb and linked the Illinois Senate Bill. I was told that the States are trying to rush thru legislation that is even more stringent that the (insert Godwin of your choice) EXECUTIVE ORDERS Obama signed today.

I’m just going to keep linking the source documents. Not much else one can do.

Really at this point, it’s just about keeping the ODS alive. That’s the NRA’s strategy in a nutshell: Approach opposition to any bills as opposition to Obama, portray a vote for any of his proposals as a vote in favor of Obama. Thing is, what they don’t get is people are looking at the hatred and bile and are turned off. The NRA says it wants to protect kids, but all its doing is attacking Obama and anybody who agrees with him.

209 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:58:08pm

Jon Stewart: NRA is a Michael Moore-run conspiracy to discredit gun owners

The NRA’s new commercial called Obama an “elitist hypocrite” because the Secret Service protects his daughters, yet the President is skeptical that having armed guards in schools was the only answer to gun violence.

“And why does he get to veto bills and command an army, when we don’t?” Stewart joked. “If I didn’t know any better, and I’m not a big conspiracy guy, after seeing that ad, I would think the NRA was either an elaborate avant-garde Joaquin Phoenix-style joke, or a false flag operation run by Michael Moore in an attempt to discredit responsible gun owners.”

210 JAFO  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:58:08pm

Homes hit by bullets in AK-47 target practice

MONTVILLE, Ohio — Police responded to one neighborhood after receiving 911 calls about hearing rapid gunfire and bullets hitting their homes.

On Wednesday, the 911 callers said that they could hear a rapid succession of gunfire and then quickly realized that some of the bullets were striking their houses.

The first officer on the scene met with the callers, reported that the gunfire had stopped, and was able to determine that the bullets had come from a northeasterly direction.

As that officer and other officers began checking the adjacent fields on foot, a second round of rapid gunfire erupted.

“I could hear bullets flying over my head. Our indications are they did not know they were hitting homes,” said Sgt. Matthew Neil, of the Montville Township police department.

wow.

211 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 9:58:39pm

re: #208 Targetpractice

Really at this point, it’s just about keeping the ODS alive. That’s the NRA’s strategy in a nutshell: Approach opposition to any bills as opposition to Obama, portray a vote for any of his proposals as a vote in favor of Obama. Thing is, what they don’t get is people are looking at the hatred and bile and are turned off. The NRA says it wants to protect kids, but all its doing is attacking Obama and anybody who agrees with him.

Yeah, I kept my mouth shut most of the day about it. Just keep repeating, “I watched the Press Conference, but haven’t read any PROPOSED legislation yet.”

I didn’t “mmm” or say “yeah” as one might in regular conversation to indicate that I was listening. I just kept my mouth shut.

212 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:00:14pm

Later, lizards.

Image: h801BDD40.jpg

213 Targetpractice  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:02:57pm

re: #211 FemNaziBitch

Yeah, I kept my mouth shut most of the day about it. Just keep repeating, “I watched the Press Conference, but haven’t read any PROPOSED legislation yet.”

I didn’t “mmm” or say “yeah” as one might in regular conversation to indicate that I was listening. I just kept my mouth shut.

I plan to just keep pressing them as much as I can. Every time they go off about it, I point out that the ban’s unlikely to go anywhere meaningful, then ask them what else they found so objectionable. I figure by lunch time today, the NRA will have them all squawking in unison.

214 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:03:42pm

Jon Stewart: “I thought the president was going to go with you bring up my kids again and I drone strike your fucking house.”

215 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:08:31pm

have a great morning all!

216 Gus  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:18:34pm
217 RadicalModerate  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:23:59pm

re: #55 jamesfirecat

Jesus Christ, I know DF has a ton of faults but i really havenever got a racist vibe from him. Do we have to jump down his throat just because? I really do not get why he is seeing so much hate, or at least why he is and Politica Aithiest isn’t, since PA was the first one to bring up forced bussing…

Sorry about getting back so late, but people performing any form of pushback to Civil Rights-era achievements rubs me entirely the wrong way, from my own personal experience of living in northern Louisiana during the 1960s-1990s. I witnessed some extremely ugly racism during that time, up to and including the 1991 Governor’s race when white supremacist David Duke came within a whisker of winning that race. The area that I lived in at the time, he WON, rather handily - (this was one of the reasons I moved out, and have only gone back a few times for family-related events).
As evidenced by federal courts striking down the state school voucher system less than a month ago, the primary basis for its removal was because it was in fact being used to circumvent state school desegregation - and we’re closing on SIXTY YEARS after Brown v Board of Education - the same racism that infects the area is still very much alive and well today.
It wasn’t a slam against DF personally, but ascribe it to the fact that I have pretty much a zero tolerance disposition to lip-service to a situation that I personally witnessed and experienced.

218 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:39:26pm

re: #217 RadicalModerate

The problem I have with that is that he’s probably one of the very few I can say that I have watched grow enormously over the past couple of years I’ve been here.

If there is grace, then DF has earned it. Harder than some, easier than most; earned nonetheless. He’s not perfect - what fuckin’ human is? The one thing Christianity got right was that every person is broken and that we are often strongest at our broken spots (sorry pappa) and to forget that is worse than anything DF has ever done.

Feh. I’m off for the night. But I’d rather a man like DF whom I disagree with than far too many of the democratic party idiots I’ve known. At least he tries to be honest. That’s more than 99.999999% percent of us can look in a mirror and say.

Ironically, my computer chose this moment to start playing Triumph’s “Magic Power”. Amen, DF, my friend.

Good night.

219 Cinnabar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:40:56pm

re: #207 Kragar

Professors can have wacky ideas outside their fields without threatening their status (they too have the constitutional right to be idiots in public), but in this case I agree with you — someone in communication and media studies who thinks that this was a manufactured conspiracy has proved he’s an ignorant idiot in his own field. Like a holocaust-denying historian.

220 Gus  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:50:26pm

Hmm.

221 Kragar  Wed, Jan 16, 2013 11:51:47pm

Maddow on new NRA ads: Trolling a key aspect of conservative media

“Trolling is a key part of the conservative-entertainment/media business model,” she said. “These guys say stuff all the time that they do not intend to be persuasive. They’re not trying to explain something, or bring people along to their way of thinking, they’re just doing something to attract attention, and hopefully condemnation and outrage from the mainstream, and particularly from liberals. They want to offend you. They seek to offend you. That is the point.”

Maddow said that “trolling” was a “tried and true schtick” for conservatives. Not just for media figures, but for politicians as well. She described Rep. Steve King (R-IA) as a “permanent troll.”

222 boredtechindenver  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 12:38:01am

re: #149 Mich-again

I have family and friends who were too afraid to send their children to a school like that so they shelled out $8K a year or more to send them to a private school where they could be in a lily white environment. So stupid.

The busing debate, vouchers and creationism are all tied together. When busing became law, many white families left the public school districts for private schools, whether religious (Catholic or other religions) where non-white children were not welcome. Sure, non-white religious schools saw an increase in student populations, but it was mostly private predominantly white schools that saw increases in student population.

Then vouchers came in, because the proponents said that they were paying twice, once in property taxes and again in private school tuition. I went to a racially diverse private school which still had a higher percentage of non minority students than the entire metropolitan area of Denver, and the administration sent home propaganda for vouchers. This was 1980-1981, the early Reagan years.

The school I went to still pushes for vouchers for religious schools, but does not push creationism (Thank you Jesuits), but other religious schools are pushing both YE and OE creationism and vouchers.

The Denver Public School district no longer has mandatory busing, but still has to compete for students with religious and non religious private schools. Suburban school districts which were never under mandatory busing orders are facing the same competition. And more and more schools are pushing Creationism. It is all tied together. Busing (desegragation), vouchers and Creationism all are tied to White flight from public school districts.

223 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 12:40:08am

I lived in a school district with forced busing in Gary, Indiana, in the 70’s. I think it was a noble idea, but a disaster in the practical sense. I feel that those funds could have been better put to ouse improving schools in disadvantaged areas and doing more to increase social integration.

But that was in an era of neighborhood segregation: black people were just not allowed to buy houses in certain neighborhoods. My mother wound up moving to keep me from attending West Side High school, which was a pretty brutal place (the basketball team was disqualified from tournament play for carrying switchblades on the court).


I joined this site when it was a lot more politically conservative, but even back then, they did not suffer trolls or creationists, which I saw as a redeeming feature.

224 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 2:30:31am

D_F, you are starting to change.
For the better.
;)

225 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 2:54:42am

It is already happening.


Study finds widespread ‘criminalization of pregnancy’ in US institutions

Hundreds of women have been arrested, convicted, jailed, detained in mental institutions or forced to endure medical procedures as a result of the “criminalisation of pregnancy” over the last four decades, a new report has found.

In the first study of its kind, to be published on Tuesday, researchers from the National Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW) identified 413 criminal and civil cases across 44 states involving the arrests, detentions and equivalent deprivations of pregnant women’s liberty between 1973 and 2005. NAWP said that it is aware of a further 250 cases since 2005. Both figures are likely to be underestimates, it said.

The report, which will appear in the Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law, found that women were denied a wide range of basic human rights, including the right to life, liberty, equal protection and due process of law “based solely on their pregnancy status”.

It found a wide range of cases in which pregnant women were arrested and detained not only if they ended a pregnancy or expressed an intention to end a pregnancy, but also after suffering unintentional pregnancy loss.

226 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:21:43am

re: #225 Obdicut

It is already happening.

Study finds widespread ‘criminalization of pregnancy’ in US institutions

Basic ways to avoid this:

a) don’t get pregnant
b) don’t get arrested
c) don’t be a woman, or if you are, do not leave the house without a male escort from your family.

227 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:11:58am
228 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:16:49am

re: #227 Obdicut

I wish this were our reality:

Gorilla Sales Skyrocket After Latest Gorilla Attack

Yes! Gorillas and other primates >>>>>>>>>>> guns

229 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:30:01am

re: #228 HappyWarrior

Yes! Gorillas and other primates >>>>>>>>>>> guns

And to quote Eddie Izzard: “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too, if they’ve got a gun.”

230 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:31:38am
231 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:35:04am

I started a Godwins of the Day page and will be adding Godwins as they show up on Twitter. Feel free to add any that you might find.

232 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:54:21am

“A well-regulated zoo menagerie being necessary to the well-being of the state, the right to keep and bear large, dangerous jungle primates, shall not be infringed”

233 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:24:38am

Just thought of this:

Fox News: We distort, you deride.

234 Jimmah  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:30:26am

re: #31 Stan the Demanded Plan

HOLY DOG OF CHRIST. We are talking about busing.

Anyone got a flag pole to thrust?

LOL yeah wtf?

I believe Ojoe was referring in his original (and eminently downdingable) “political footballs” comment to Obama’s horrible use of teh kids in his gun control proposal announcement at the Whitehouse:

Image: obama_signs_gun_control_executive_actions_jan_16_2013.jpg

235 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:37:18am
236 Sionainn  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:38:53am

re: #235 Lidane

[Embedded content]

The Soviet Union? What year do these whackos think this is?

237 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:41:42am

re: #236 Sionainn

The Soviet Union? What year do these whackos think this is?

TIME TRAVELING COMMUNISTS!1!

238 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:43:01am
239 Jimmah  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:44:04am

re: #111 Kragar

Instructional material in two school districts teach that racial diversity today can be traced back to Noah’s sons, a long-discredited claim that has been a foundational component of some forms of racism.

DNA analysis is clearly a lie from the devil to test us!

Currently reading “The Name Of The Rose” - the controversies of the frightened monks therein seem quite topical in the context of the modern religious backlash against knowledge.

240 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:52:48am

OUTRAGE!

241 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:57:48am

re: #234 Jimmah

LOL yeah wtf?

I believe Ojoe was referring in his original (and eminently downdingable) “political footballs” comment to Obama’s horrible use of teh kids in his gun control proposal announcement at the Whitehouse:

Image: obama_signs_gun_control_executive_actions_jan_16_2013.jpg

Agreed (that’s why I was first to downding the comment, and regrettably the busing discussion was the result. Ugh).

Let’s just say after what I posted above and the Electoral College obscenity being perpetrated by democracy-destroying PA republicans, I have had it with anyone who tries to minimize, make excuses for, or distract from GOP evil and stupidity. They might as well be extolling the virtues of racists, misogynists, theocrats, corporate crooks, and polluters (oh wait! they are!)

242 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:59:50am

re: #235 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Wasn’t this the same fellow sho came out in opposition to Obamas proposals before they were even announed?

243 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:05:02am

*sigh*

Stupid Neo-Confederates.

244 Jimmah  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:07:43am

re: #241 Interesting Times

Let’s just say after what I posted above and the Electoral College obscenity being perpetrated by democracy-destroying PA republicans, I have had it with anyone who tries to minimize, make excuses for, or distract from GOP evil and stupidity. They might as well be extolling the virtues of racists, misogynists, theocrats, corporate crooks, and polluters (oh wait! they are!)

Totally agreed.

Vote me! I stuck it to the environment! Did you like that Rush? Did you see me?

What a piece of shit.

245 Kronocide  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:13:06am

Obama = Hitler graphics are all over Facebook. I’ve pretty much had it with that idiocy.

246 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:16:19am
247 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:18:39am

re: #245 Kronocide

Obama = Hitler graphics are all over Facebook. I’ve pretty much had it with that idiocy.

And they’re all clutching their pearls because somebody on CBS compared NRA to Nazis.

248 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:18:56am

re: #245 Kronocide

Obama = Hitler graphics are all over Facebook. I’ve pretty much had it with that idiocy.

If I don’t want to make a stink with that person, I just remove them from my newsfeed. If I do, then I just do.

249 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:20:10am

Points for creativity:

250 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:20:40am

re: #246 Lidane

[Embedded content]

I hate Neo Confederates.

251 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:21:51am

re: #247 Vicious Babushka

And they’re all clutching their pearls because somebody on CBS compared NRA to Nazis.

Both sides do it!

252 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:23:15am

re: #250 Varek Raith

I hate Neo Confederates.

“LINCOLN WUZ A TYRANT! HE WAS LIKE HITLER!”

“If we’d voted on the issue, whites would have outlawed slavery anyway!”

“Without the North invading the South the Civil War makes no sense!”

Morons. All of them.

253 Kronocide  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:23:40am

re: #248 Geoff with a G

If I don’t want to make a stink with that person, I just remove them from my newsfeed. If I do, then I just do.

Thanks for the tip I may consider it.

254 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:24:15am

re: #235 Lidane

[Embedded content]

You know they’ve got nothing when the wingnuts have to recycle old boogeymen in order to prove a point that can’t be proven in a logical world.

255 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:25:57am

re: #253 Kronocide

There are ways to change your news feeds to eliminate all but the most essential of posting updates. I’ve all but eliminated the spam photos for the pet cause du jour.

There’s always quitting facebook.

256 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:26:38am

re: #253 Kronocide

Thanks for the tip I may consider it.

It’s great for family members and your kids-friends-parents and the like!

257 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:28:35am

While there’s plenty of assholes on Twitter, I found the real asshole of the day:

258 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:29:59am
259 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:30:25am

re: #258 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

260 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:31:54am

re: #203 Targetpractice

So yeah, every wingnut I’ve talked to today since Obama’s proposals were made public is going on at length to me about how the bans are so wrong, unconstitutional and so forth. But when I press them to point to anything else he proposed today that is objectionable…absolute silence. Even all the pearl-clutching and fainting spells over the talk about executive orders has gone nowhere.

Since I’ve got personal perspective here, yes, massive freakout, followed by me asking “so how do these actually affect anything you do.” *Crickets* As usual, 99% or so of folks aren’t going to see a bit of difference if they are law-abiding gun owners. Of course, we also have Cuomo’s new laws on the books here in NY, so it might be 97% who won’t see a bit of difference. But I’ll bet the NRA got plenty of checks in the mail because of this.

261 Kronocide  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:33:25am

re: #255 lawhawk

There’s always quitting facebook.

WTF, are you nuts?!!!

LOL

Maybe they should adjust their settings for me.

263 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:37:22am

Oh hell. News report-35 hostages/15 militants dead in Algeria, a helicopter attack supposedly. This among reports of some escaping.

264 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:38:17am

re: #247 Vicious Babushka

And they’re all clutching their pearls because somebody on CBS compared NRA to Nazis.

The conservatives on my FB are all pouty today, posting terse one-liners like ‘Liberalism is all about making yourself feel better’ and ‘Wag the dog!’.

I think a couple of them are starting to realize that despite yesterday’s Godwinning, the public is standing with the president on this one. I’m enjoying it.

‘Morning, Lizards!

265 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:39:59am

re: #260 Ghost of Tom Joad

Since I’ve got personal perspective here, yes, massive freakout, followed by me asking “so how do these actually affect anything you do.” *Crickets* As usual, 99% or so of folks aren’t going to see a bit of difference if they are law-abiding gun owners. Of course, we also have Cuomo’s new laws on the books here in NY, so it might be 97% who won’t see a bit of difference. But I’ll bet the NRA got plenty of checks in the mail because of this.

If you’re getting crickets, you’re not listening to the right people. There’s the destruction of HIPAA - if you have trouble sleeping and see the doctor, SWAT will be at your door in a day or two. There’s the direction to the CDC to research gun violence - just a coverup for actually directing them to research reasons to seize guns. Oh, and you should see the conspiracies over the “review and enhance gun locks, gun safes, and gun safety measures.”

If you’re getting crickets I suspect its because the people you’re listening to are not conspiracy leaders but instead conspiracy followers. The noise is there and it’s coming.

266 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:42:47am

re: #263 Political Atheist

There’s reports that a number of the hostages were forced to wear explosive belts. The airstrike apparently killed a number of hostages and terrorists, and that a number of hostages managed to escape.

267 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:43:25am

Reuters: 6 Hostages, 8 Kidnappers Killed In Algeria Hostage Situation

A source told Reuters on Thursday that six foreign hostages and eight kidnappers were killed after Algerian forces fired on the natural gas plant where Islamist rebels were holding Westerners hostage.

Earlier reports indicated as many as 35 foreigners and 15 kidnappers were killed.

268 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:44:13am

re: #243 Lidane

Somehow this whole separation of powers thing eludes some people.

269 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:45:39am

re: #260 Ghost of Tom Joad

I’ll tell you what I do not support. The NY law. Or one part of it. The seven round magazine capacity limit. That is a deliberate interference. The 10 round limit takes advantage of availability. There are ten round magazines for most semi auto handguns, if not all that are big enough. Need to comply? Just go buy one or more.

There are no seven round magazines.

270 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:51:20am

re: #264 makeitstop

The conservatives on my FB are all pouty today, posting terse one-liners like ‘Liberalism is all about making yourself feel better’ and ‘Wag the dog!’.

I think a couple of them are starting to realize that despite yesterday’s Godwinning, the public is standing with the president on this one. I’m enjoying it.

‘Morning, Lizards!

It’s just another addition to the long line of “boy who cried wolf” stories. When there is a massive freakout about every little thing the President (who happens to be black) does, eventually it starts to wear thin on the rest of the public. Eventually, these freakouts just get ignored for being nothing more than whiny temper-tantrums.

271 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:51:54am

re: #266 lawhawk

Thanks for the link.

272 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:52:04am

US new housing construction grows by 12.1%. Best since housing crisis began in 2008.

273 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:52:23am

re: #269 Political Atheist

I’ll tell you what I do not support. The NY law. Or one part of it. The seven round magazine capacity limit. That is a deliberate interference. The 10 round limit takes advantage of availability. There are ten round magazines for most semi auto handguns, if not all that are big enough. Need to comply? Just go buy one or more.

There are no seven round magazines.

Betcha we see the first ones available within a couple of weeks.

274 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:52:24am

re: #271 Political Atheist

It’s what I do. :)

275 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:55:09am

re: #248 Geoff with a G

If I don’t want to make a stink with that person, I just remove them from my newsfeed. If I do, then I just do.

Honestly, if they’re posting pictures comparing Obama to Hitler, you’re better off unfriending them. I did that with a wingnut right after the election.

Prior to the election, this guy posted a cartoon insinuating Obama was knowingly working with Al Queda. Then Benghazi hit and, as you can imagine, he was off to the crazy races.

I can only imagine the kind of idiocy/hate this moron is spewing right now. Do yourself a favor; if anyone you know is forwarding the Obama/Hitler stuff, drop them.

276 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:55:40am

re: #265 kirkspencer

If you’re getting crickets, you’re not listening to the right people. There’s the destruction of HIPAA - if you have trouble sleeping and see the doctor, SWAT will be at your door in a day or two. There’s the direction to the CDC to research gun violence - just a coverup for actually directing them to research reasons to seize guns. Oh, and you should see the conspiracies over the “review and enhance gun locks, gun safes, and gun safety measures.”

If you’re getting crickets I suspect its because the people you’re listening to are not conspiracy leaders but instead conspiracy followers. The noise is there and it’s coming.

I’m talking about personal relations etc. Yeah, when it’s on the internet or on TV, people are going to go DEFCON 1 about every fucking thing. Hell, at family gatherings it’s always that type of hyperbolic crap, but when you get down to dealing with somebody at a personal, face to face level, it’s a lot different. They know they don’t have anonymity to hide behind.

277 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:56:16am

re: #273 kirkspencer

Betcha we see the first ones available within a couple of weeks.

For Glock and 1911/2011 I suppose. But not that fast. And for many less popular models not for a long time, if ever. So, are the old magazines of 10 round legal to keep and use?

BBIAB

278 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:59:23am

re: #276 Ghost of Tom Joad

I’m talking about personal relations etc. Yeah, when it’s on the internet or on TV, people are going to go DEFCON 1 about every fucking thing. Hell, at family gatherings it’s always that type of hyperbolic crap, but when you get down to dealing with somebody at a personal, face to face level, it’s a lot different. They know they don’t have anonymity to hide behind.

Lucky you. I am talking about people I know on a first-name basis, people I can’t cut and drop.

279 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:59:27am

How can you compare Obama to Hitler?

He’s much worse!!!11

//

Also, Good Morning Honcos!

280 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:00:12am

re: #275 Mattand

Honestly, if they’re posting pictures comparing Obama to Hitler, you’re better off unfriending them. I did that with a wingnut right after the election.

Prior to the election, this guy posted a cartoon insinuating Obama was knowingly working with Al Queda. Then Benghazi hit and, as you can imagine, he was off to the crazy races.

I can only imagine the kind of idiocy/hate this moron is spewing right now. Do yourself a favor; if anyone you know is forwarding the Obama/Hitler stuff, drop them.

Agreed. Fortunately for me I don’t have any fb friends posting those types of pictures. I had one or two that were posting pro-gun nonsense. Unfriended one and remove from newsfeed the other. Not that I am anti-gun, these guys were just obtuse.

281 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:00:16am

re: #269 Political Atheist

I’ll tell you what I do not support. The NY law. Or one part of it. The seven round magazine capacity limit. That is a deliberate interference. The 10 round limit takes advantage of availability. There are ten round magazines for most semi auto handguns, if not all that are big enough. Need to comply? Just go buy one or more.

There are no seven round magazines.

They’ll adapt.

282 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:00:27am

re: #276 Ghost of Tom Joad

If you proceed fromt he assumption that Obama is out to repeal the 2nd Amendment and disarm us all, then all these measures are the slippery slope.

If you are a normal, sane human being, these are all normal, sane measures to help improve an abnormal, insane situation created by the NRA and its influence on gun legislation.

283 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:02:01am

re: #282 Sol Berdinowitz

I’ve got to say I was surprised at how reasonable his ideas were. Still think the Assault Weapons ban and 10 round limit won’t do anything, but I like fully implementing the background checks.

284 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:05:08am

re: #269 Political Atheist

I’ll tell you what I do not support. The NY law. Or one part of it. The seven round magazine capacity limit. That is a deliberate interference. The 10 round limit takes advantage of availability. There are ten round magazines for most semi auto handguns, if not all that are big enough. Need to comply? Just go buy one or more.

There are no seven round magazines.

I agree here somewhat because we own a few rifles with 10-round magazines that are there by default (Garand, SKS). I’d much rather they at least Grandfather those in, along with stricter requirements for securing said weapons, registration, and enforcing strict backround checks on sale (including private).

285 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:05:46am

re: #283 rwdflynavy

I’ve got to say I was surprised at how reasonable his ideas were.

You shouldn’t have been, and wouldn’t have been, if objective reality weren’t treated with such gross disrespect in rightwing extremist propaganda (that seeps into the national consciousness whether we like it or not).

286 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:06:50am

re: #285 Interesting Times

Feinstein’s proposal to register all firearms didn’t help much.

287 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:07:33am

re: #277 Political Atheist

For Glock and 1911/2011 I suppose. But not that fast. And for many less popular models not for a long time, if ever. So, are the old magazines of 10 round legal to keep and use?

BBIAB

I wasn’t even going to count 1911s as they’re already out there and have been for a while (which rather rebuts your “there are none” point, but I digress).

No, I’m looking at the major driving point that there is a market to fill and money to be made because of this. Yes, the less common firearms will take longer. But I betcha the designers have been burning midnight oil since the idea of a seven round limit first got serious traction. Well, not literally. CAD doesn’t use oil.

288 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:09:26am

re: #287 kirkspencer

I wasn’t even going to count 1911s as they’re already out there and have been for a while (which rather rebuts your “there are none” point, but I digress).

No, I’m looking at the major driving point that there is a market to fill and money to be made because of this. Yes, the less common firearms will take longer. But I betcha the designers have been burning midnight oil since the idea of a seven round limit first got serious traction. Well, not literally. CAD doesn’t use oil.

Some of the manufacturers won’t even bother. We are talking about New York state, not the entire country. Market may not be large enough to make it worth their effort.

289 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:10:59am

re: #278 kirkspencer

Lucky you. I am talking about people I know on a first-name basis, people I can’t cut and drop.

That’s when I think somebody is lost. It’s one thing when you’re talking to a group, or have anonymity on the internet (or there’s no chance of repercussions among close friends/family/co-workers). It’s another thing when it’s in a 1-on-1 conversation and the batshit continues. I know many don’t have the luxury, but I’ve told people if they come to me with that silly shit, they’re dead to me.

Sorry to hear you’re having trouble getting through.

290 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:11:54am

re: #286 rwdflynavy

Feinstein’s proposal to register all firearms didn’t help much.

Registering firearms = Bad.
Registering the mentally ill in a massive database = Good.
-NRA

291 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:12:47am

A reminder for everyone. At the same time that the NRA junkies are spouting the “Obama=Hitler!” crap, call members of the left fascists who part of some grand conspiracy to eliminate them - just take a look at the raving conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook and Aurora for examples of this - they are selling this sort of paraphernalia at NRA-sponsored events.

No fascism here, no sir.

292 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:13:21am

OT but wanted to share this. My 4yo’s class made these in school yesterday:

Image: mini-mlks.jpg

Legit question: How do you explain Martin Luther King to a 4 year old? She’s white (Irish, Lebanese, Scottish, French) but goes to a very diverse school. So she is living in MLK’s dream. But how do you explain to a 4yo that it wasn’t always (and in some places still isn’t) that way?

293 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:14:40am

re: #289 Ghost of Tom Joad

That’s when I think somebody is lost. It’s one thing when you’re talking to a group, or have anonymity on the internet (or there’s no chance of repercussions among close friends/family/co-workers). It’s another thing when it’s in a 1-on-1 conversation and the batshit continues. I know many don’t have the luxury, but I’ve told people if they come to me with that silly shit, they’re dead to me.

Sorry to hear you’re having trouble getting through.

Well, here’s the thing. On easily 3/4 of the issues of life they’re sane. In a couple of cases they helped float me through some major life difficulties due to loss of job and home.

I’ve also got a couple of extreme moonbats, similar levels of acquaintance. One of them literally drove 500 miles and put down $1000 to help me deal with a particularly nasty issue a few years ago - done without me asking, just knowing it needed done.

I find myself unable, after that, to declare people “dead to me”. Call them idiots, sure. Berate them for blind unthinking stupidity and paranoia, you betcha. But cut them off entirely? No.

294 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:17:52am

From the NYS SAFE Act:

23. “Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, [manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four,] that (A) has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition, OR (B) CONTAINS MORE THAN SEVEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, OR (C) IS OBTAINED AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE CHAPTER OF THE LAWS OF TWO THOUSAND THIRTEEN WHICH AMENDED THIS SUBDIVISION AND HAS A CAPACITY OF, OR THAT CAN BE READILY RESTORED OR CONVERTED TO ACCEPT, MORE THAN SEVEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition OR A FEEDING DEVICE THAT IS A CURIO OR RELIC. A FEEDING DEVICE THAT IS A CURIO OR RELIC IS DEFINED AS A DEVICE THAT (I) WAS MANUFACTURED AT LEAST FIFTY YEARS PRIOR TO THE CURRENT DATE, (II) IS ONLY CAPABLE OF BEING USED EXCLUSIVELY IN A FIREARM, RIFLE, OR SHOTGUN THAT WAS MANUFACTURED AT LEAST FIFTY YEARS PRIOR TO THE CURRENT DATE, BUT NOT INCLUDING REPLICAS THEREOF, (III) IS POSSESSED BY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS NOT PROHIBITED BY STATE OR FEDERAL LAW FROM POSSESSING A FIREARM AND (IV) IS REGISTERED WITH THE DIVISION OF STATE POLICE PURSUANT TO SUBDIVISION SIXTEEN-A OF SECTION 400.00 OF THIS CHAPTER, EXCEPT SUCH FEEDING DEVICES TRANSFERRED INTO THE STATE MAY BE REGISTERED AT ANY TIME, PROVIDED THEY ARE REGISTERED WITHIN THIRTY DAYS OF THEIR TRANSFER INTO THE STATE. NOTWITHSTANDING PARAGRAPH (H) OF SUBDIVISION TWENTY-TWO OF THIS SECTION, SUCH FEEDING DEVICES MAY BE TRANSFERRED PROVIDED THAT SUCH TRANSFER SHALL BE SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 400.03 OF THIS CHAPTER INCLUDING THE CHECK REQUIRED TO BE CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO SUCH SECTION.

295 bratwurst  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:17:53am

Please check out the latest far-right organization (this one tied to Geert Wilders) featured in the LGF pages!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

296 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:19:41am

re: #283 rwdflynavy

I’ve got to say I was surprised at how reasonable his ideas were. Still think the Assault Weapons ban and 10 round limit won’t do anything, but I like fully implementing the background checks.

That is the thing that is driving the RWNJs around the bend today. They expected Obama to announce a national seizure of all weapons, or something as extreme, and all they got were common-sense steps that you’d have to be crazy to oppose.

297 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:19:43am

re: #292 Geoff with a G

OT but wanted to share this. My 4yo’s class made these in school yesterday:

Image: mini-mlks.jpg

Legit question: How do you explain Martin Luther King to a 4 year old? She’s white (Irish, Lebanese, Scottish, French) but goes to a very diverse school. So she is living in MLK’s dream. But how do you explain to a 4yo that it wasn’t always (and in some places still isn’t) that way?

Good question.

I commented to someone here at work yesterday about how you can watch older movies (in this case the 70s Dirty Harry films) and see a whole lot of cultural mores and behaviors that are simply taken for granted. Heavy smoking, treatment of minorities and women, etc.

298 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:20:21am

re: #292 Geoff with a G

I don’t see how with a 4-year old. Tough to get a true understanding of what he and many others fought for. Though if they’re doing a class project I’d hope the teacher would have at least tried to explain what he fought for.

The best way might be to look at her friends. Does she have any (this actually sounded bad in my head) non-white friends that you can point to and say “MLK wanted everybody to be friends. If it wasn’t for him and people like him, you probably wouldn’t be friends with (fill in name).”

It’s simple and it sounds shady, but how else do you explain it to a 4-year old?

299 Sionainn  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:21:31am

What I’d like to see is a mechanism in place for people to report others who appear to have become mentally unstable to get evaluated a.s.a.p. and their guns removed if it is found that they could be a danger to others with those guns.

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard people worried about family members who have gone off the deep end or become senile and it is now worrisome with them having guns, but there is nothing they can do about it.

300 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:22:19am

re: #298 Ghost of Tom Joad

She is friends with all the kids (well except for the ‘yucky boys’, lol). I should talk to the teacher to see what/how she explained it to see if it needs to be reinforced/reinterpreted, etc.

301 Sionainn  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:23:38am

re: #292 Geoff with a G

OT but wanted to share this. My 4yo’s class made these in school yesterday:

Image: mini-mlks.jpg

Legit question: How do you explain Martin Luther King to a 4 year old? She’s white (Irish, Lebanese, Scottish, French) but goes to a very diverse school. So she is living in MLK’s dream. But how do you explain to a 4yo that it wasn’t always (and in some places still isn’t) that way?

She’s only 4, so what you just said is good enough. Keep is simple and then every year you add more details.

I got a chuckle from those mini MLKs. They are both cute and creepy at the same time.

302 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:24:44am

re: #301 Sionainn

She’s proud of it. His foot came unglued on the ride home so we had to fix him up!

303 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:30:02am

re: #294 lawhawk

I hate legalese.

304 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:36:12am

A new tact by RWNJs today - mentioning all the gun seizures that Hitler enacted, and when called on it responding ’ I never mentioned Obama…’

Passive aggressive bullshit.

305 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:37:04am

re: #303 Ghost of Tom Joad

I hate legalese.

That’s actually pretty simple. If it’s manufactured after 1994 and holds more than 7 bullets it’s a large capacity magazine. Exception granted for .22 rifle tubular magazines and for some curios and relics.

306 122 Year Old Obama  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:39:59am

re: #295 bratwurst

Please check out the latest far-right organization (this one tied to Geert Wilders) featured in the LGF pages!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Wow. Just wow. Charles isn’t gonna like this.

307 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:42:10am

re: #306 Henchman 25

Wow. Just wow. Charles isn’t gonna like this.

Reported the page.
/Eeevil!

308 bratwurst  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:50:25am

re: #306 Henchman 25

Wow. Just wow. Charles isn’t gonna like this.

re: #307 Varek Raith

Reported the page.
/Eeevil!

Gone already. I am sure it is just a coincidence that this page was posted in the middle of the night. As Varek pointed out before it went poof, there MUST be sources out there that these right wing pages warriors can link to that aren’t directly associated with the organized hate industry.

309 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:51:00am

Good morning lizards!

We are expected to get 4-7 inches of snow today. My kids are very excited!

310 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:51:40am

re: #295 bratwurst

re: #306 Henchman 25

Seriously, WTF is up with the Pages lately? Now you guys see why I never trusted that asshat Jasser. A “devout” Muslim hanging around with Wilders & Fjordman? REALLY? Then the wonderful & devout Qanta calls Jasser her “colleague” and I’m “smearing” her? Sorry lady, I didn’t get that far-right “counter-jihad” stink all over you, you did it all by yourself.

re: #307 Varek Raith

I reported bratwurst’s comment and mine so it would be obvious what the issue was. I prolly should’ve just reported the page like normal, but seeing those names… sheesh.

311 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:51:47am
312 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:51:49am

Conflicting reports but this doesn’t look good
Militants: 35 hostages dead in Algerian copter attack

There was no official confirmation from U.S. or other governments involved on the emerging details. The British Foreign Office did confirm that they were aware of an “ongoing military operation.” France also confirmed an attack was under way.

A spokesman for the Masked Brigade said according to the AP that the Algerians opened fire as the militants tried to leave the vast energy complex with their hostages a day after seizing the installation deep in the desert.

The information came from the Nouakchott Information Agency, which has often carried reports from al Qaeda-linked extremist groups in North Africa.

A diplomatic source confirmed to CBS News that the Algerian military had a plan to retake the facility and that there had been casualties among both the terrorists and hostages, including multiple deaths.

A British security source, citing a contact close to the scene, told CBS News “that the Algerians were firing from helicopters at anything that moved,” but could not confirm any deaths.

313 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:53:01am

re: #307 Varek Raith

Reported the page.
/Eeevil!

I can’t help following links. Went to the actual page. Left feeling…

OK, somewhere back when I watched some parody youtubes. Some trailers were made of a few comedies that made them out to be horror movies. Just a matter of careful cuts, scary music, and sinister sounding voice-over.

I came away from the article feeling the same way, astounded at how things can get twisted. ooooh, it’s a Big Deal that someone went a few miles away to pay for a dentist even though there are dentists nearby. OOOO….

314 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:53:15am

re: #309 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

We are expected to get 4-7 inches of snow today. My kids are very excited!

Where at?
For me it’s a dusting to 5 inches.
Awesomely vague.
XD

315 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:53:41am

re: #309 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

We are expected to get 4-7 inches of snow today. My kids are very excited!

Snow fort!

316 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:54:10am

re: #315 Killgore Trout

Snow fort!

With a snow recliner.

317 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:54:46am

re: #308 bratwurst

re: #307 Varek Raith

Gone already.

Good riddance. Yuck.

I am sure it is just a coincidence that this page was posted in the middle of the night. As Varek pointed out before it went poof, there MUST be sources out there that these right wing pages warriors can link to that aren’t directly associated with the organized hate industry.

Indeed.

318 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:54:52am

re: #312 Killgore Trout

Conflicting reports but this doesn’t look good
Militants: 35 hostages dead in Algerian copter attack

And then there is this troubling news coming out…

Hostages in Algeria ‘made to wear explosives’

FRANCE 24 has spoken to a French national who says he is one of the 150 hostages at the gas facility in southeast Algeria. The hostage said that they have been forced to wear explosive belts and that this militants are “heavily armed”.

…The man, who declined to be identified by name, told FRANCE 24 that there were British, Japanese, Philippine and Malaysian nationals among the hostages.

He said the militants simultaneously stormed the gas plant as well as the workers’ living quarters. “They came in and once there was daylight, grouped us all together.”

He said the attackers were heavily armed and forced several hostages to wear explosives belts. They threatened to blow up the gas field if Algerian forces attempted to enter the site.

FRANCE 24 could not verify if the testimony was made under duress.

319 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:55:56am

Shocka!

320 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:55:57am

re: #309 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

We are expected to get 4-7 inches of snow today. My kids are very excited!

We’ve just got a 40 per cent chance of snow here. I can see yours, well to the south on the radar. I don’t envy you the shoveling.

321 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:56:44am

re: #312 Killgore Trout

Conflicting reports but this doesn’t look good
Militants: 35 hostages dead in Algerian copter attack

#TGDN has stopped in the middle of their Hitler photo ops to call this “Benghazi II”

322 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:57:11am
323 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:57:29am

re: #314 Varek Raith

Where at?
For me it’s a dusting to 5 inches.
Awesomely vague.
XD

Charlottesville area. The amount of snow forecasted has changed a number of times since yesterday. It started out as up to 5 inches, then 3-5, 4-6, 6-10, then this morning 3-5 and the latest is 4-7. I’ll just wait till it’s over then measure it myself.

324 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:57:50am

re: #318 NJDhockeyfan

And then there is this troubling news coming out…

Hostages in Algeria ‘made to wear explosives’

What a nightmare.

325 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:58:01am

re: #313 kirkspencer

One of the most famous romantic comedies of the last couple of decades, Sleepless in Seattle could easily be turned into a horror stalker flick. After all, Meg Ryan’s character takes things to extremes by following around Tom Hanks and his son. Change the music and presto chango - horror flick.

I know someone’s done a horror recut of the trailer somewhere….

326 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:58:18am

re: #323 NJDhockeyfan

Charlottesville area. The amount of snow forecasted has changed a number of times since yesterday. It started out as up to 5 inches, then 3-5, 4-6, 6-10, then this morning 3-5 and the latest is 4-7. I’ll just wait till it’s over then measure it myself.

Just north-east of you.
PW county is always on the rain/snow border.

327 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:58:31am

re: #323 NJDhockeyfan

Charlottesville area. The amount of snow forecasted has changed a number of times since yesterday. It started out as up to 5 inches, then 3-5, 4-6, 6-10, then this morning 3-5 and the latest is 4-7. I’ll just wait till it’s over then measure it myself.

I’m in Alexandria, working in the Pentagon. Not looking forward to the stupidity that will be on display for the commute home.

328 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:58:59am

re: #321 Vicious Babushka

#TGDN has stopped in the middle of their Hitler photo ops to call this “Benghazi II”

LOL. I have no way to read that but I bet the tweets are funny as hell.

329 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:59:33am

re: #328 NJDhockeyfan

LOL. I have no way to read that but I bet the tweets are funny as hell.

No, they’re really stupid, lame and face-palming.

330 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:59:36am

re: #321 Vicious Babushka

#TGDN has stopped in the middle of their Hitler photo ops to call this “Benghazi II”

You forgot Electric Boogaloo.

331 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:00:11am

There are going to be watch parties at various Austin bars for the Lance Armstrong interview.

Why doesn’t that surprise me?

332 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:00:14am

re: #327 rwdflynavy

I’m in Alexandria, working in the Pentagon. Not looking forward to the stupidity that will be on display for the commute home.

The grocery stores are packed this morning. I expect this area to be completely out of bread by noon.

333 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:00:19am

re: #327 rwdflynavy

I’m in [redacted], working in [redacted]. Not looking forward to the stupidity that will be on display for the commute home.

Are you allowed to post that?

334 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:00:59am

Okay, creepy counter-jihadists on one side, creepy Algerian terrorists on the other, and wingnuts still going full-bore Godwin in the middle. It’s wayyyy too early in the morning for this much shit.

Laters.

335 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:01:07am

re: #319 Lidane

Did you see this comment I made last night? It just occurred to me it might be peripherally relevant to your line of work as well (since you’ve studied digital law, and the polluting company’s puppet judge helps them harass environmental bloggers)

336 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:01:13am

re: #333 Vicious Babushka

Redacted

Of course I redacted. This is a free redacted we live in.

337 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:02:26am

re: #321 Vicious Babushka

I called that yesterday. Within minutes of the attack, the rwnj echo chamber/rubber room was busy saying this was Benghazi, part 2, a continuation of Benghazi, or some similar claim.

338 122 Year Old Obama  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:03:12am

I’m reminded why I don’t use Facebook much. Riddled with conspiracies, fake quotes, and gun nut bullshit. Made me furious.

I do wonder when they’ll start complaining about a lack of unfettered access to rocket launchers.

339 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:03:23am

re: #335 Interesting Times

Did you see this comment I made last night? It just occurred to me it might be peripherally relevant to your line of work as well (since you’ve studied digital law, and the polluting company’s puppet judge helps them harass environmental bloggers)

Yeah, I saw that. The headdesking I did after it was painful, so I cured it with hot chocolate and laying down with a cat at my side.

340 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:03:30am

re: #337 lawhawk

I called that yesterday. Within minutes of the attack, the rwnj echo chamber/rubber room was busy saying this was Benghazi, part 2, a continuation of Benghazi, or some similar claim.

Do you think it is a cooooincidence?!?!? Algeria is in North Africa just like Libya!!!11 It’s turtles all the way down Man!!!11

341 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:04:24am
342 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:04:57am

*FACE PALM*

343 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:05:34am

re: #305 kirkspencer

That’s actually pretty simple. If it’s manufactured after 1994 and holds more than 7 bullets it’s a large capacity magazine. Exception granted for .22 rifle tubular magazines and for some curios and relics.

Exception should be for all tubular magazines. A newly made Winchester 94 in .30-30 can hold 8 rounds but is hardly the weapon of choice for a shooting spree. Mine, that I own for deer hunting, being made in 1965 is legal but the exact same rifle made today is not?

344 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:07:42am

re: #342 Vicious Babushka

*FACE PALM*

[Embedded content]

Fucking Facts! How do they work????

345 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:08:07am

Egyptian army finds antiaircraft near Israeli border

The Egyptian army detected explosives near the Israeli border.

The explosives were found after the Egyptian army received information of smugglers storing antiaircraft missiles

Yikes! This is all we need, Hamas with anti-aircraft weapons.

346 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:08:27am

re: #327 rwdflynavy

I’m in Alexandria, working in the Pentagon. Not looking forward to the stupidity that will be on display for the commute home.

Nothing quite like 65mph bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-95 or the Beltway while it is snow-covered as well is there? Been there back in late 1987 during the infamous Veteran’s Day snow storm.

In the distopian future they will take off the guard rails on the Woodrow Wilson Bridge* and put up web-cams so that people can watch the cars take a dive.

* - Since it’s not too tall and over a navigable waterway (Potomac River) the middle of the Woodrow Wilson is a metal grate deck drawbridge. As such, it got *very* slippery in icy/wet weather. Though I think they have alleviated things a bit since 1990 IIRC. Yep, they put up a higher and wider span in 2006.

347 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:11:03am

The Feline Overlords deny any connection with this event.

[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com…]

348 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:11:35am
349 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:11:38am

So now, whenever an incident occurs such as the one in Algeria it just becomes another excuse to piss on the POTUS. These are Americans. Whatever happened to unity? Do they realize the inherent danger of being in such areas? You’re supposed to “stand by” your president during times likes these, regardless of your personal politics. So much for being “true patriots.” Anyway, I’m sure most Americans will stand by in the meat world.

350 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:13:30am

re: #348 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

I knew this would happen. There might be an EO or two forthcoming but no EOs have been signed. Only 3 presidential memorandums. Heck, even people to the left are calling these EOs. They’re not.

351 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:14:16am

923? Where in the world did that number come from?

352 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:14:27am

re: #349 Gus

So now, whenever an incident occurs such as the one in Algeria it just becomes another excuse to piss on the POTUS. These are Americans. Whatever happened to unity? Do they realize the inherent danger of being in such areas? You’re supposed to “stand by” your president during times likes these, regardless of your personal politics. So much for being “true patriots.” Anyway, I’m sure most Americans will stand by in the meat world.

I have a couple of fraternity brothers who are friended on FB who have been linking piles of conservative trash. A few of them also work the petroleum industry including spending time in foreign oil fields (Indonesia, SA, etc.) I will keep an eye out to see how they decide to play up these events.

353 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:14:53am

re: #349 Gus

These are Americans. Whatever happened to unity?

Black man with African name got elected POTUS. Twice.

Do they realize the inherent danger of being in such areas? You’re supposed to “stand by” your president during times likes these, regardless of your personal politics. So much for being “true patriots.” Anyway, I’m sure most Americans will stand by in the meat world.

I actually saw some RWNJ fail yesterday that said things like:

“What were they doing in Algeria anyway? Seems fishy!”

You know, because we don’t have any business interests in Algeria or anything.

354 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:15:12am

re: #351 Gus

923? Where in the world did that number come from?

Out of some wingnut’s ass.

355 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:15:27am

re: #350 Gus

I knew this would happen. There might be an EO or two forthcoming but no EOs have been signed. Only 3 presidential memorandums. Heck, even people to the left are calling these EOs. They’re not.

I hear that the word “nuance” is going to be stricken from the dictionary. It does not exist anymore in Earth culture.
///

356 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:15:30am

re: #351 Gus

923? Where in the world did that number come from?

The collective rectum of the RWNJ noise machine.

357 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:15:40am

re: #354 Vicious Babushka

Out of some wingnut’s ass.

Snopes! SOROS!! /

358 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:15:49am

Repost from a Page comment
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

My comment-

*facepalm*

I think we might want a “Shooting” while intoxicated law. Maybe the same as DUI-.08 and with similar penalties. At the ranges where I shoot alcohol possession is forbidden. Not even for an after event BBQ. No beer.

What do you think? “Operating a firearm while intoxicated” sounds like a doable thing at the state level.

359 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:17:31am

re: #351 Gus

923? Where in the world did that number come from?

Year 923 (CMXXIII) was a common year starting on Wednesday (link will display the full calendar) of the Julian calendar.

360 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:17:53am

re: #352 Feline Fearless Leader

I have a couple of fraternity brothers who are friended on FB who have been linking piles of conservative trash. A few of them also work the petroleum industry including spending time in foreign oil fields (Indonesia, SA, etc.) I will keep an eye out to see how they decide to play up these events.

Was thinking about my brother who was almost going to take a job somewhere in Africa at some petroleum facility. High paying position dealing with water treatment equipment. Well, it was a hot zone even under normal circumstances. Fenced in “compound.”

361 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:18:25am

The Godwinning seems to have died down since yesterday, #TGDN is back to posting the usual Benghazi, birther, “need more followers!”

362 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:19:35am
363 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:20:05am

Dear wingnuts,
We are in Algeria because of oil/gas you dipshits.

364 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:20:24am

re: #358 Political Atheist

Repost from a Page comment
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

My comment-

*facepalm*

I think we might want a “Shooting” while intoxicated law. Maybe the same as DUI-.08 and with similar penalties. At the ranges where I shoot alcohol possession is forbidden. Not even for an after event BBQ. No beer.

What do you think? “Operating a firearm while intoxicated” sounds like a doable thing at the state level.

Even without SUI legislation, I think this ought to be covered by basic reckless endagerment.

365 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:20:34am

re: #361 Vicious Babushka

The Godwinning seems to have died down since yesterday, #TGDN is back to posting the usual Benghazi, birther, “need more followers!”

They will merge tomorrow into “Bengitlerazi” tweets. Which is some sort of hybrid, or photographers stalking tigers.
/

366 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:21:22am
367 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:21:42am

re: #351 Gus

923? Where in the world did that number come from?

I saw those ‘statistics’ on Facebook yesterday. According to the dolt who posted them, Reagan signed a whopping 5 EOs in his two terms (RR’s actual number: 381).

Everybody gets their own personal set of facts nowadays.
/

368 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:21:51am

re: #363 Varek Raith

Dear wingnuts,
We are in Algeria because of oil/gas you dipshits.

Gee, maybe the oil corporations should be held accountable for properly protecting their workers on foreign soil as much, if not more, than the POTUS.
///

369 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:22:28am

*sigh*

How do these people function day to day?

370 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:23:32am

re: #354 Vicious Babushka

Out of some wingnut’s ass.

ZOMG!!11 Teh Librul Snoaps!!1ty!

371 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:24:07am

re: #367 makeitstop

I saw those ‘statistics’ on Facebook yesterday. According to the dolt who posted them, Reagan signed a whopping 5 EOs in his two terms (RR’s actual number: 381).

Everybody gets their own personal set of facts nowadays.
/

At that rate, he was doing an EO once every 9 days. Really executive orders are common in the modern presidency. Acting like this is some new thing Obama has made out of control is completely dishonest. Just like Mark Levin whining about Obama’s “tyranny.”

372 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:24:23am

re: #367 makeitstop

I saw those ‘statistics’ on Facebook yesterday. According to the dolt who posted them, Reagan signed a whopping 5 EOs in his two terms (RR’s actual number: 381).

Everybody gets their own personal set of facts nowadays.
/

Maybe I should stop trying to dis-empower these dorks into a position of disenfranchisement. I’m OK, you’re OK, so everyone is free to make up any numbers they want. //

373 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:24:46am

re: #369 Lidane

*sigh*

[Embedded content]

How do these people function day to day?

Paranoia continues to strike deep. These people think they’re more important than they actually are.

374 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:29:05am

re: #371 HappyWarrior

Acting like this is some new thing Obama has made out of control is completely dishonest.

The most infuriating part is that Obama didn’t sign any EOs the other day. I pointed that out to a wingnut, and she responded by saying EOs and Executive Actions/Presidential Memoranda are ‘pretty much the same thing.’

Never mind the legal definitions of each - Obama did it, so they’re ‘pretty much the same thing.’

You simply cannot reason with these people. They do not want to hear it.

375 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:30:11am

re: #373 HappyWarrior

Paranoia continues to strike deep. These people think they’re more important than they actually are.

Time for a little Buffalo Springfield?

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you’re always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

376 gwangung  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:30:29am

re: #374 makeitstop

The most infuriating part is that Obama didn’t sign any EOs the other day. I pointed that out to a wingnut, and she responded by saying EOs and Executive Actions/Presidential Memoranda are ‘pretty much the same thing.’

That’s like saying, “Japanese, Koreans. Pretty much the same thing.”

Except that’ll get your ass kicked in the right part of town.

377 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:30:45am

re: #374 makeitstop

The most infuriating part is that Obama didn’t sign any EOs the other day. I pointed that out to a wingnut, and she responded by saying EOs and Executive Actions/Presidential Memoranda are ‘pretty much the same thing.’

Never mind the legal definitions of each - Obama did it, so they’re ‘pretty much the same thing.’

You simply cannot reason with these people. They do not want to hear it.

Agree. They don’t want to hear it because they’re already set in their minds that anything Barack Obama does is bad and not only bad but done for sinister reason. You can’t reason with people like that at all.

378 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:31:10am

re: #374 makeitstop

The most infuriating part is that Obama didn’t sign any EOs the other day. I pointed that out to a wingnut, and she responded by saying EOs and Executive Actions/Presidential Memoranda are ‘pretty much the same thing.’

Never mind the legal definitions of each - Obama did it, so they’re ‘pretty much the same thing.’

You simply cannot reason with these people. They do not want to hear it.

What he signed off on was rather benign from the viewpoint of gun rights. Unless of course you’re into criminal tracking of guns and are opposed to a study by the CDC.

379 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:31:12am

re: #376 gwangung

That’s like saying, “Japanese, Koreans. Pretty much the same thing.”

Except that’ll get your ass kicked in the right part of town.

What you mean they’re not the same thing.//

380 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:31:34am

re: #374 makeitstop

The most infuriating part is that Obama didn’t sign any EOs the other day. I pointed that out to a wingnut, and she responded by saying EOs and Executive Actions/Presidential Memoranda are ‘pretty much the same thing.’

Never mind the legal definitions of each - Obama did it, so they’re ‘pretty much the same thing.’

You simply cannot reason with these people. They do not want to hear it.

And a tank is an APC is an armored HMMWV. Or more apropos to this subject a clip is a magazine. “Pretty much the same thing.”

381 gwangung  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:31:38am

re: #377 HappyWarrior

Agree. They don’t want to hear it because they’re already set in their minds that anything Barack Obama does is bad and not only bad but done for sinister reason. You can’t reason with people like that at all.

Though you can annoy the hell out of them….

382 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:31:59am

re: #378 Gus

What he signed off on was rather benign from the viewpoint of gun rights. Unless of course you’re into criminal tracking of guns and are opposed to a study by the CDC.

Really for something being called the worst infringement ever on 2nd amendment rights, it was really a whole lot of basic stuff that I’d expect past Republican presidential administrations to probably do.

383 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:32:33am

re: #381 gwangung

Though you can annoy the hell out of them….

That you can.

384 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:33:03am

FWIW, much of the focus I’m seeing is on the assault weapon line. It’s drawing so much attention that a lot of other stuff is getting ignored.

385 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:33:20am

re: #381 gwangung

Though you can annoy the hell out of them….

And if you annoy them enough, they start trolling through your Facebook profile or Twitter feed to try and find ways to insult you or hurt you.

386 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:33:24am

Attack helicopters, fighter jets.
Same thing!

387 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:33:30am

re: #380 kirkspencer

And a tank is an APC is an armored HMMWV. Or more apropos to this subject a clip is a magazine. “Pretty much the same thing.”

And an automatic pistol and automatic rifle are “pretty much the same thing” as well. :p

388 gwangung  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:33:46am

re: #382 HappyWarrior

Really for something being called the worst infringement ever on 2nd amendment rights, it was really a whole lot of basic stuff that I’d expect past Republican presidential administrations to probably do.

Basically, if you’re against Obama on this, then you’re FOR putting guns back into the hands of convicted felons and FOR censorship.

389 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:34:09am
390 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:34:58am

re: #374 makeitstop

The most infuriating part is that Obama didn’t sign any EOs the other day. I pointed that out to a wingnut, and she responded by saying EOs and Executive Actions/Presidential Memoranda are ‘pretty much the same thing.’

Never mind the legal definitions of each - Obama did it, so they’re ‘pretty much the same thing.’

You simply cannot reason with these people. They do not want to hear it.

BECAUSE HITLER!1!

391 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:35:16am

4 Pinocchios for a slashing NRA ad on security at Sidwell Friends School

A slashing attack like this has an especially high threshold to get its facts straight. The ad gives the impression that a phalanx of armed police are guarding students, such as the Obama and Gregory children, at Sidwell Friends.

But that is completely false. Far from being elitist, the relatively small force of unarmed security guards at Sidwell is not unusual for a school of its size.

Moreover, the ad also suggests that Obama rejects out of hand boosting security at schools, when in fact his proposals include provisions that would provide funding for more school security.

If the NRA is also trying to count Secret Service protection for Obama’s children as part of that force of armed guards, that’s even more ridiculous. As we noted, such protection is mandated under federal law — and only exists for the president’s children.

Four Pinocchios

392 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:35:19am

re: #386 Varek Raith

Attack helicopters, fighter jets.
Same thing!

Redneck with an AR-15 and an NRA card, US military.

Same thing, same level of firepower.

393 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:37:05am
394 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:37:21am

Uh oh. One of the PMs from yesterday went missing. It’s a plot!

395 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:38:24am

re: #393 Lidane

[Embedded content]

We could perfect time travel and take them to the Honolulu hospital and they’d still wouldn’t believe it. Someone please tell me how, when, and why the Republicans are going to moderate when their base is still cuckoo for shit puffs.

396 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:38:55am

I like this.
[Link: www.snopes.com…]

397 iossarian  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:40:22am

Pimp mah page, because it fits both with the original thread topic of anti-science bullshit from the right, and also the Obama gun actions discussion:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

I didn’t realize that you basically weren’t allowed to do public health research into gun violence in the US. Explains a lot.

398 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:40:34am
399 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:41:48am

He should’ve signed an EO making doctors ask wingnuts if they have a brain.
/

400 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:41:49am

re: #396 Varek Raith

Also favored as a result for fixed lottery draws:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

401 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:43:01am

A new day, a new anti Obama conspiracy theory. Not even noon yet and I need a figurative drink.

402 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:43:05am

re: #397 iossarian

That’s not entirely correct. You can do your own research and get published on the subject, but the CDC and NSF have next to nothing in their budget to allocate to firearms research as a public safety issue. Because funding dictates what gets study and research dollars, the lack of funding means that there’s little funding available to carry out a critical study of the public health impact of firearms on American society.

Note that when you’ve got 12k homicides, a similar number of firearms suicides and several times that number in injuries, the health care costs are significant and measurable.

403 gwangung  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:43:54am

re: #397 iossarian

Pimp mah page, because it fits both with the original thread topic of anti-science bullshit from the right, and also the Obama gun actions discussion:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

I didn’t realize that you basically weren’t allowed to do public health research into gun violence in the US. Explains a lot.

Yup. Pretty outrageous. The NRA is pretty much saying they’re FOR censorship and suppression of research.

404 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:44:01am

re: #394 Gus

Uh oh. One of the PMs from yesterday went missing. It’s a plot!

Got moved to proclamations. I don’t know why, but noticed it this morning.

405 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:45:24am

re: #404 kirkspencer

Got moved to proclamations. I don’t know why, but noticed it this morning.

CONSPIRAGHAZI!

407 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:47:37am

With gun deaths as high as they are, I don’t see any good reason to oppose research into gun violence and health. Of course, if you’re a water carrier for the gun companies like the NRA……………

408 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:48:29am

Hmmm. “Posted in Proclamations” isn’t right. Methinks they’re still editing the page.

409 iossarian  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:48:36am

re: #402 lawhawk

That’s not entirely correct. You can do your own research and get published on the subject, but the CDC and NSF have next to nothing in their budget to allocate to firearms research as a public safety issue.

Yes, but that state of affairs does in fact constitute a de facto ban. No academic outside the humanities can afford to do research without funding, and the vast majority of primary research funding comes from the government.

I think we pretty much agree on this, anyhow. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that, in the past, you essentially weren’t allowed to pursue such research, since if you did so it would pretty much be the end of your academic career (good luck getting tenure without funding).

410 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:48:39am

Lawyers for Idaho Man, Accused of Shooting at White House, Say Client ‘Was Coerced’

Attorneys representing an Idaho man, accused of trying to assassinate President Barack Obama by shooting at the White House in November 2011, are trying to get their client’s statements to law enforcement thrown out of court.

In court documents filed on Wednesday, lawyers for Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez said their client’s statements “were coerced,” adding that he was “handcuffed to a chair for two hours following his arrest.” Attorneys also said they have yet to find any document that says Ortega-Hernandez agreed to waive his rights and talk to authorities.

Ortega-Hernandez has pleaded not guilty.

He is accused of opening fire on the executive mansion with a semi-automatic weapon on Nov. 11, 2011. Obama was away from the White House at the time.

411 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:49:40am

re: #378 Gus

What he signed off on was rather benign from the viewpoint of gun rights. Unless of course you’re into criminal tracking of guns and are opposed to a study by the CDC.

I believe that’s why NY state acted so quickly to pass their new gun law. It’s pretty much devoid of extreme measures, it doesn’t affect guns already in ownership (for the most part), and it passed in a bipartisan manner.

IMO, that law will be the model for what actually gets sent to the House.

412 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:50:35am

re: #408 Gus

Hmmm. “Posted in Proclamations” isn’t right. Methinks they’re still editing the page.

see the proclamations link

413 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:52:38am

I notice that some of the furthest right wing nutcases on the internet are blinking on the debt ceiling.

Of course they’re not saying “defaulting is a really bad idea” they’re saying “the press lies and supports Obama. He’s a bully who holds all the cards.” and “He’s a communist who will use this crises as his final chance to destroy capitalism!”

That reputation they built up of Obama as a Cloward–Piven loving communist who hates America, capitalism, Christianity and the white man is finally coming in handy.

414 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:54:19am

re: #412 kirkspencer

see the proclamations link

I saw that. Someone put a memorandum under proclamations.

415 iossarian  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:54:20am

re: #378 Gus

What he signed off on was rather benign from the viewpoint of gun rights. Unless of course you’re into criminal tracking of guns and are opposed to a study by the CDC.

I’ll say it again, the whole “encourage everyone to set up emergency procedures, and hire more cops” stuff leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I realize that such things are important, but as a “solution” to school massacres?

How about banning. fucking. guns.

416 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:55:14am

re: #411 makeitstop

I believe that’s why NY state acted so quickly to pass their new gun law. It’s pretty much devoid of extreme measures, it doesn’t affect guns already in ownership (for the most part), and it passed in a bipartisan manner.

IMO, that law will be the model for what actually gets sent to the House.

From this House? Like New York? I doubt that.

417 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:55:25am

re: #414 Gus

I saw that. Someone put a memorandum under proclamations.

um. That’s what I said.

418 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:55:55am

OK. I’m out. BBL

419 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:57:08am

Hamas shuts down smugglers after hundreds of tunnels cratered by heavy rains

GAZA CITY — The Hamas regime has closed down the massive tunnel smuggling network amid numerous cave-ins along the Egyptian border.

Officials said the Interior Ministry decided to close the estimated
1,200 tunnels that connect the Gaza Strip to Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula. They said scores of tunnels underneath the divided city of Rafah were destroyed or damaged in wake of flooding from heavy rains in January.

“The tunnels are no longer safe to operate,” an official said.

1200? I didn’t know there were that many tunnels.

420 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:58:40am

re: #416 Gus

From this House? Like New York? I doubt that.

Oh, they’ll derp their asses off, no doubt.

I’m just saying that Obama can point to the NY gun law and say it was passed by both Dems and Republicans, and ask why the same thing can’t be done on a national level.

He brilliantly turned a few RW memes on their heads in the presser yesterday - especially the part about Americans’ rights being violated. I’m sure the NY law will come in very handy as a rhetorical device somewhere along the way.

421 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:58:41am

What annoys me honestly is how some people like the NRA want the conversation to be about anything but guns. LaPierre went out of his way to bring up two films that came out when the shooter Lanza was younger than the victims of the shooting and ones I’d be honestly shocked if he saw more than once. And the video games. As someone from the same generation as Ryan Lanza, I can tell you that most Gen Yers have played video games yet obviously 99.9% of us aren’t mass murderers either. We should at the very least be aware the guns are dangerous and meant to be dangerous. A gun unlike a car or knife which I’ve too often seen guns compared to has a sole purpose of ending a life whether that life be human or animal. Let’s be honest about guns. Let’s not make bs arguments like credit cards are as dangerous or blame video games, films, etc.

422 Ian G.  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:01:53am

Deadspin tells Donald Trump the only 3 words he should ever hear from anyone.

The profanity in the link within a link is a bit more than “mild”.

423 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:14:39am

Just got back from getting my flu shot.

For someone who is terrified of needles like me, that’s an accomplishment. :D

424 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:15:11am

Meanwhile, the Algerian Military has proved themselves to be incompetent.

Either that, or the Algerian Government secretly supports Ansar Dine. 50-50 odds.

425 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:23:03am
426 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:25:20am
427 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:25:54am

re: #425 NJDhockeyfan

NHL apologizes to fans in a full-page ad

They damn-well should. Watching Fehr and Bettman (I call him little Napoleon) was like watching Reid and Boehner trying to get things done in Congress.

“What we have here is, a failure to communicate. Some men, you just can’t reach.”

428 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:30:39am
429 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:31:45am

Lots of different number being reported today in the Algeria terrorist situation.

Algeria says 600 hostages freed; terrorists say 35 died

The fate of hostages being held at a gas complex deep in the Sahara desert drew conflicting reports Thursday, with an Algerian news service reporting that 600 hostages were freed while militants claimed 35 were killed in an Algerian military raid.

Algerian news service ANP reported that the Algerian military conducted air strikes and a ground operation to free the hostages, who were picked up by military helicopters. It remained unclear if any of the hostages were injured, ANP said.

However, Islamist terrorists told a Mauritanian news outlet that Algerian military helicopters strafed the gas complex, killing 35 foreign hostages and 15 of the kidnappers, the Associated Press is reporting.

Adding to the confusion was and earlier AP report, citing an Algerian official, that as many as 20 foreign hostages, including an unknown number of Americans, had escaped their captors.

A spokesman for the Masked Brigade, which had earlier claimed responsibility for the hostage-taking Wednesday, said Abou El Baraa, the leader of the kidnappers, was among militants killed in the Algerian army’s helicopter attack.

He also said seven hostages survived, including two Americans.

430 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:34:56am

re: #428 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Article makes a good point. They had a wave election at just the right time. Yet another good reason people should vote in all election years and not just presidential years. If more people would have voted in 2010, we wouldn’t have gotten as much Tea Party idiots in the legislature and governors’ mansions. I’m cautiously optimistic for 2014 but midterms are usually not favorable to the president’s party as we saw in 2010 but hopefully the American people know that the GOP is full of crap by now.

431 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:35:16am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Lots of different number being reported today in the Algeria terrorist situation.

Algeria says 600 hostages freed; terrorists say 35 died

600? is that a typo?

432 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:37:51am

re: #431 Killgore Trout

600? is that a typo?

No, I’ve seen that number on a few more news outlets. Apparently Algeria’s state news agency put that number out there.

433 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:40:33am

re: #432 NJDhockeyfan

No, I’ve seen that number on a few more news outlets. Apparently Algeria’s state news agency put that number out there.

damn

434 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:42:24am

Dell Computer’s plan to reinvent drown itself:

[Link: hardware.slashdot.org…]

435 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:44:05am

re: #434 Decatur Deb

Dell Computer’s plan to reinvent drown itself:

[Link: hardware.slashdot.org…]

In a bathtub I hope. I loathe Dell.

436 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:46:18am

re: #430 HappyWarrior

Article makes a good point. They had a wave election at just the right time. Yet another good reason people should vote in all election years and not just presidential years. If more people would have voted in 2010, we wouldn’t have gotten as much Tea Party idiots in the legislature and governors’ mansions. I’m cautiously optimistic for 2014 but midterms are usually not favorable to the president’s party as we saw in 2010 but hopefully the American people know that the GOP is full of crap by now.

We had a wave election as a racist and xenophobic backlash against having black son-of-an-immigrant president. That’s what’s gonna keep us screwed, possibly forever. Keep in mind that those overly safe districts effect who is going to be in the state houses for the NEXT census.

437 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:46:37am

re: #433 Killgore Trout

damn

Wonder if some are reporting based on number of total workers in the gas field, and some on the number of foreign workers there. You know, because the local Algerians there don’t count.
/(sorta)

438 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:47:05am

re: #435 Ghost of Tom Joad

In a bathtub I hope. I loathe Dell.

In a flowing steam, amid garlands of flowers.

[Link: t2.gstatic.com…]

439 Geoff with a G  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:49:20am
440 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:50:17am

re: #435 Ghost of Tom Joad

I do too, but for various reasons I keep buying dells along with insurance plans that cost more than the machines.

2/3 Dells came with some major part the breaks immediately. Motherboard on one, broadband card on another.

And it took me 4 months of hounding to get them to replace the broadband card with the 4G I had paid for. Even as they only shipped new machines that had 4G cards, they claimed that they couldn’t get a 4G card as a replacement. I refused to accept that and the damn tech support in India responded by harassing me with status calls every 3 days for 4 months, often by someone who had no idea why they were calling and wanted to ask me my problem from step one.

441 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:50:39am

re: #433 Killgore Trout

damn

Algeria is doing this all on their own.

Official: Algeria rejected US help before raid

…A U.S. official says the Obama administration had offered military assistance to rescue the hostages, but that the Algerian government refused the help.

U.K. Says Algeria Informed PM About Military Operations After Underway

British Prime Minister David Cameron only found out about the military operations in Algeria after they were underway, a spokesman for Mr. Cameron said Thursday afternoon.

Mr. Cameron called Algerian prime minister Abdelmalek Sellal late Thursday morning and it was then that his Algerian counterpart informed him the operation was underway, the spokesman said. He added that Mr. Cameron had stressed in an earlier call between the two men that he wanted to be informed beforehand.

442 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:53:13am
444 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:54:19am

This is the guy responsible for the terrorist attack in Algeria…they call him ‘Mr. Marlboro’.

445 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:56:11am

WTF:

446 efuseakay  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:56:46am

This mess in Algeria isn’t going to end well.

447 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:58:31am

re: #445 lawhawk

I often equate being a politician with prostitution, always with the caveat that I’m using the word metaphorically and have respect for actual prostitutes who are much more moral and do real work.

448 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:58:45am

re: #440 stabby

We (NY State) have a contract with them, so that’s all we have. They’re terrible. We had one whole line come in with a motherboard defect that caused some transistor or something inside to totally melt down and fry the thing.

My folks have one. I’m forever having to go over and fix the damned thing.

And, yes, their lovely tech support. In India. “Is computer plugged in?”

449 blueraven  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:00:04am

re: #442 NJDhockeyfan

Japan is not happy either.

Japan urges Algeria to halt military operation ‘immediately’

I think we have a “fog of war” situation here and it would be best to wait this out a bit.

450 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:00:09am

re: #446 efuseakay

This mess in Algeria isn’t going to end well.

This 2.0? :(

451 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:00:35am

re: #448 Ghost of Tom Joad

You may be amused that a spilled a full cup of very sweet coffee into one once. I found caramel forming in the battery charging portion of the motherboard. TAKE THAT, DELL :P

Luckily the insurance covered it, and I no longer drink coffee in bed with a laptop.

452 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:02:16am

re: #447 stabby

I often equate being a politician with prostitution, always with the caveat that I’m using the word metaphorically and have respect for actual prostitutes who are much more moral and do real work.

I don’t remember it word-for-word, but I heard a joke along those lines somewhere;
“The difference between a prostitute and a politician is that you pay a prostitute in order to fuck them, a politician takes your money and then fucks YOU.”

453 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:02:39am

re: #445 lawhawk

WTF:

[Embedded content]

Wimmins kin choose to be whore. Wimmins kinnot choose not to have babby. Lets make lawz for this.

454 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:03:19am

re: #425 NJDhockeyfan

NHL apologizes to fans in a full-page ad

Unless part of that apology is a resignation letter from commissioner Gary Bettman, apology NOT accepted. He has literally driven the league into the ground during the past decade with his horrendous mismanagement.

455 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:03:47am

re: #445 lawhawk

WTF:

[Embedded content]

Oh ya think?

456 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:03:57am

re: #448 Ghost of Tom Joad

And, yes, their lovely tech support. In India. “Is computer plugged in?”

Actually, I can’t fault them for that. I can’t tell you how many computer problems I’ve solved because no one thought to check the power.

Speaking of Dells: at some point, my Dad is going to need a new PC to replace his 8-year-old Pentium Dell running XP with 512MB RAM (yes, you read that right.)

I was just going to have him get a Dell, partly because they still sell some with Win 7 installed. Getting a Mac (which would make my life easier) isn’t an option.

If Dell is really going down the shitter, what kind of PC do the Lizardim Technorati suggest? I’d like to get one that will come with Win 7. Win 8 is just going to confuse the hell out of him; I’m not confident that Win7 isn’t going to be a problem.

457 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:04:14am

re: #448 Ghost of Tom Joad

We (NY State) have a contract with them, so that’s all we have. They’re terrible. We had one whole line come in with a motherboard defect that caused some transistor or something inside to totally melt down and fry the thing.

My folks have one. I’m forever having to go over and fix the damned thing.

And, yes, their lovely tech support. In India. “Is computer plugged in?”

All our work laptops and desktops are Dells due to contract. Luckily I don’t do desktop support, but the contractors I work with who do have lots of fun horror stories about the equipment, batteries, and getting software images properly installed (and one support guy says that the default one Dell supplies is really awful - but we have a corporate one that we use instead.)

458 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:04:52am

re: #445 lawhawk

WTF:

[Embedded content]

I did a page on this yesterday.

459 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:05:06am

re: #441 NJDhockeyfan

Algeria is doing this all on their own.

Official: Algeria rejected US help before raid

U.K. Says Algeria Informed PM About Military Operations After Underway

This looks like a mess. We should have had assets already in the region if we were more active in Mali.

460 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:06:22am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

I’m not sure anyone can trust the numbers coming out of Algeria at this point - whether you’re talking about overall number of people involved, casualties, or terrorists involved. The 600 seems a full order of magnitude different than every other report out there, and if there are multiple reports indicating as much, it is possible that they are referencing each other and not necessarily based on solid information.

It could be floated as an overall number of people involved so as to make the casualties from the raid seem much more reasonable - 10% of those held hostage killed, instead of like 50% or more in the raid. But it will be some time before we know what’s really going on. 24/48 hour rule… .

461 blueraven  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:08:06am

re: #459 Killgore Trout

This looks like a mess. We should have had assets already in the region if we were more active in Mali.

Yes…Obama’s fault again.
//

462 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:08:55am

re: #456 Mattand

Actually, I can’t fault them for that. I can’t tell you how many computer problems I’ve solved because no one thought to check the power.

Speaking of Dells: at some point, my Dad is going to need a new PC to replace his 8-year-old Pentium Dell running XP with 512MB RAM (yes, you read that right.)

I was just going to have get a Dell, partly because they still sell some with Win 7 installed. Getting a Mac (which would make my life easier) isn’t an option.

If Dell is really going down the shitter, what kind of PC do the Lizardim Technorati suggest? I’d like to get one that will come with Win 7. Win 8 is just going to confuse the hell out of him; I’m not confident that Win7 isn’t going to be a problem.

When my last desktop (running WinME) finally gave up the ghost I opted to not buy another desktop. I ended up going into Best Buy and getting a non-top end HP laptop a few years ago. 16” screen, runs Win 7, and I put the Office Suite on it.

It’s been a good compromise solution. Big enough screen that I don’t really want/need a external monitor. Mobile enough that I can take it places like the game store or a friend’s house for role-playing sessions. Plus I can sit and use it in multiple places in the apartment.

463 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:13:52am

re: #459 Killgore Trout

This looks like a mess. We should have had assets already in the region if we were more active in Mali.

Algeria should have waited for help from the UK, France, and the US before attacking the Islamists themselves. I think that would have saved many more lives.

464 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:14:07am

re: #456 Mattand

Actually, I can’t fault them for that. I can’t tell you how many computer problems I’ve solved because no one thought to check the power.

Speaking of Dells: at some point, my Dad is going to need a new PC to replace his 8-year-old Pentium Dell running XP with 512MB RAM (yes, you read that right.)

I was just going to have him get a Dell, partly because they still sell some with Win 7 installed. Getting a Mac (which would make my life easier) isn’t an option.

If Dell is really going down the shitter, what kind of PC do the Lizardim Technorati suggest? I’d like to get one that will come with Win 7. Win 8 is just going to confuse the hell out of him; I’m not confident that Win7 isn’t going to be a problem.

I’m on my second Dell, with no Dell-related complaints. My only complaint is that my set up at work is much like your dad’s. We just got a 15” HP laptop for at home (I know, it’s a laptop, it doesn’t have to stay there…) with Win 8. I don’t find Win 8 confusing (maybe for the first couple of days…) I don’t know Win 7, because I skipped over that, but I think you might just be delaying the confusion if you go that route.

Like FFL above, I think I’ll replace my desktop with a second laptop.

465 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:14:40am

re: #454 RadicalModerate

Unless part of that apology is a resignation letter from commissioner Gary Bettman, apology NOT accepted. He has literally driven the league into the ground during the past decade with his horrendous mismanagement.

Completely agree. If Bettman had a similar track record in just about any other job, he’d have been fired long ago. I cannot wait until the day he is no longer working for the NHL.

I’m Canadian. I love hockey. It’s in the blood. And yes, I will watch a few NHL games this year but I will not support the league otherwise. No tickets, no merchandise, no nothing.

It just pisses me off to no end that they played chicken with each other and waited until the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT to put a deal together. We were literally a week away from (likely) losing another season.

466 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:15:07am

re: #462 Feline Fearless Leader

When my last desktop (running WinME) finally gave up the ghost I opted to not buy another desktop. I ended up going into Best Buy and getting a non-top end HP laptop a few years ago. 16” screen, runs Win 7, and I put the Office Suite on it.

It’s been a good compromise solution. Big enough screen that I don’t really want/need a external monitor. Mobile enough that I can take it places like the game store or a friend’s house for role-playing sessions. Plus I can sit and use it in multiple places in the apartment.

Thanks. I’ll look into it.

The big problem is my dad is unfortunately in full-blown Old Man/I Hate Everything Different mode. I kept pushing him to get a new machine prior to the Win 8 release, but he wouldn’t budge.

He actually made some noises about going Mac based on his drinking buds using them (forget the fact I’ve 18 relatively incident-free years using and fixing them.) I keep telling him he needs to go try one out, just to make sure he’s fine with it. Not surprisingly, he loses interest ASAP.

If it wasn’t for the fact he touch types, I’d have moved him to an iPad by now.

467 iossarian  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:15:29am

re: #456 Mattand

Actually, I can’t fault them for that. I can’t tell you how many computer problems I’ve solved because no one thought to check the power.

Speaking of Dells: at some point, my Dad is going to need a new PC to replace his 8-year-old Pentium Dell running XP with 512MB RAM (yes, you read that right.)

I was just going to have him get a Dell, partly because they still sell some with Win 7 installed. Getting a Mac (which would make my life easier) isn’t an option.

If Dell is really going down the shitter, what kind of PC do the Lizardim Technorati suggest? I’d like to get one that will come with Win 7. Win 8 is just going to confuse the hell out of him; I’m not confident that Win7 isn’t going to be a problem.

I haven’t bought a new PC in 15 years - always found one that someone else in the family was giving away due to upgrades. But then I am a total cheapskate.

As for OS, I think anything up to Win7 is OK in terms of not-confusing-grandma, or at least that’s been my experience with grandmas and Win7. I’m increasingly of the opinion, though, that it’s just a question of delivering a solid web browser experience, since virtually everything is in the browser nowadays anyway (with obvious caveats for specific usage).

468 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:15:33am

re: #460 lawhawk

I’m not sure anyone can trust the numbers coming out of Algeria at this point - whether you’re talking about overall number of people involved, casualties, or terrorists involved. The 600 seems a full order of magnitude different than every other report out there, and if there are multiple reports indicating as much, it is possible that they are referencing each other and not necessarily based on solid information.

It could be floated as an overall number of people involved so as to make the casualties from the raid seem much more reasonable - 10% of those held hostage killed, instead of like 50% or more in the raid. But it will be some time before we know what’s really going on. 24/48 hour rule… .

As usual the MSM is so eager to report on these things first that they post any number that is told to them before checking to see how accurate they really are.

469 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:15:43am

re: #258 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Good.

470 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:17:11am

re: #466 Mattand

Thanks. I’ll look into it.

The big problem is my dad is unfortunately in full-blown Old Man/I Hate Everything Different mode. I kept pushing him to get a new machine prior to the Win 8 release, but he wouldn’t budge.

He actually made some noises about going Mac based on his drinking buds using them (forget the fact I’ve 18 relatively incident-free years using and fixing them.) I keep telling him he needs to go try one out, just to make sure he’s fine with it. Not surprisingly, he loses interest ASAP.

If it wasn’t for the fact he touch types, I’d have moved him it an iPad by now.

My dad, who is 83, likes his Mac.

471 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:17:16am

re: #468 NJDhockeyfan

As usual the MSM is so eager to report on these things first that they post any number that is told to them before checking to see how accurate they really are.

Competent fact checkers just don’t exist anymore. How do you think Stephen Glass was able to get away with his fraud for as long as he did? And that was in the late 1990s. The problem has only gotten worse.

472 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:18:36am

re: #453 wrenchwench

Just seeing the spelling of ‘babby’ makes me laugh out loud for some reason.

473 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:18:47am

Barber & Staver: Obama is Pushing America Toward Civil War

Funny how the only people calling for civil war are a bunch of whiny ass nutjobs who can’t stand they lost a free and open election.

474 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:20:08am

This reads like sour grapes. NRA says New York’s quick passage of gun control thwarted opposition. Fact is that during the runup to its passage, lobbyists from the state’s NRA affiliate was going around the Capitol building trying to build support for blocking the package.

It didn’t work.

Gov. Cuomo outwitted the NRA and their affiliates by hitting upon the fact that the State Senate is a divided bunch and that the state GOP has a functional majority only because of breakaway Democrats. Keeping that caucus together is key to GOP power in the state Senate, so putting together the SAFE act took that into account and some of the provisions were tailored to address that.

475 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:20:33am

Malkin: Obama guilty of ‘child abuse’ for using ‘kiddie human shields’

Conservative columnist Michelle Malkin on Thursday accused President Barack Obama of “child abuse” because she said he had used children as “kiddie human shields” to advance his gun safety agenda.

476 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:20:48am

re: #465 dragonfire1981

Completely agree. If Bettman had a similar track record in just about any other job, he’d have been fired long ago. I cannot wait until the day he is no longer working for the NHL.

I’m Canadian. I love hockey. It’s in the blood. And yes, I will watch a few NHL games this year but I will not support the league otherwise. No tickets, no merchandise, no nothing.

It just pisses me off to no end that they played chicken with each other and waited until the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT to put a deal together. We were literally a week away from (likely) losing another season.

We watch the Flyers fairly regularly. You’d think I’d have gone through cold turkey over the strike.

I literally have had to be reminded three times that the NHL was on strike. Didn’t even miss it. Of course, given the play of the other three Philly teams over the last year, I may have just subconsciously given up altogether.

477 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:21:23am

re: #472 makeitstop

Just seeing the spelling of ‘babby’ makes me laugh out loud for some reason.

[Link: knowyourmeme.com…]

478 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:21:31am

re: #466 Mattand

Thanks. I’ll look into it.

The big problem is my dad is unfortunately in full-blown Old Man/I Hate Everything Different mode. I kept pushing him to get a new machine prior to the Win 8 release, but he wouldn’t budge.

He actually made some noises about going Mac based on his drinking buds using them (forget the fact I’ve 18 relatively incident-free years using and fixing them.) I keep telling him he needs to go try one out, just to make sure he’s fine with it. Not surprisingly, he loses interest ASAP.

If it wasn’t for the fact he touch types, I’d have moved him it an iPad by now.

hehehe. That’s amusing.

My father was massively anti-computer back in the 1980s. Saw them as time wasters compared to using other things at work, etc. etc. And got issued a Mac for home anyways. I took to it while I was home from college, mainly for game playing, but also for some other messing around. (No internet, but you could play with various programs.)

I think he eventually took to it as better software came out, I got a degree in computer science and flogged the usefulness to him, plus my mother got to using it for letter writing/work processing. With email it became an obvious asset since it saved on stamps and such - especially once the technology spread to relatives and others who he wanted to keep in contact with. Plus about that point all his kids were scattering to the four winds as well.

My mother took to it right off. But then again she was a librarian. ;)

479 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:21:55am

re: #472 makeitstop

How is babby formed?

Well, when a politician and a church lobbyist love each other very much…

480 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:22:22am

re: #468 NJDhockeyfan

It is kinda hard to determine the veracity of casualty counts in an active war zone or lawless region as Algeria’s border with Libya has been.

Same thing applies to Syria’s civil war and claims of atrocities. Just today, there were claims that Assad’s forces killed more than 100 in Homs, but no one outside the country can really verify any of the figures. We can only extrapolate from multiple sources if possible, and then go back once the conflict is over and get a better handle.

481 jaunte  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:22:42am

re: #474 lawhawk

The NRA has no room to complain about “secret negotiations.”

482 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:22:48am

re: #473 Kragar

Barber & Staver: Obama is Pushing America Toward Civil War

Funny how the only people calling for civil war are a bunch of whiny ass nutjobs who can’t stand they lost a free and open election.

Well, wasn’t the last one started under the same conditions?
// ;)

483 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:23:10am

re: #472 makeitstop

Just seeing the spelling of ‘babby’ makes me laugh out loud for some reason.

Makes me laugh because I think of that caveman video that was posted here where the caveman asks, “How is babby formed?”

Oh, look. It’s a meme.

484 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:23:16am

Bush attorney general disappoints Hannity: Obama’s executive orders are legal

Former Bush Attorney General Michael Mukasey appeared on the Fox News Channel’s “Hannity” Wednesday night with a message that left the host looking rather disappointed.

Rebutting the Republican talk show host, Mukasey said that President Barack Obama’s executive orders so far have been legal, as much as he finds them distasteful. He even expressed agreement with the Supreme Court’s finding that the Affordable Care Act is constitutional, leaving Hannity looking perplexed.

Speaking about the president’s most significant executive actions thus far, Hannity exclaimed: “It seems me to be, by definition, abuse of power. A power grab if you will… Is it then unconstitutional in some instances?”

“I don’t think it’s unconstitutional in the sense that I don’t think it’s something you could get a court to find unconstitutional,” Mukasey replied. “We could have a debate about whether it’s consistent with the constitution or not, but there is a limited number of things that will get you into court to have that decided, and I don’t think any of the things you’ve enumerated are among them.”

485 iossarian  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:23:45am

re: #466 Mattand

Thanks. I’ll look into it.

The big problem is my dad is unfortunately in full-blown Old Man/I Hate Everything Different mode. I kept pushing him to get a new machine prior to the Win 8 release, but he wouldn’t budge.

He actually made some noises about going Mac based on his drinking buds using them (forget the fact I’ve 18 relatively incident-free years using and fixing them.) I keep telling him he needs to go try one out, just to make sure he’s fine with it. Not surprisingly, he loses interest ASAP.

If it wasn’t for the fact he touch types, I’d have moved him it an iPad by now.

This is on slashdot today - relevant?

[Link: hardware.slashdot.org…]

486 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:23:57am

re: #476 Mattand

We watch the Flyers fairly regularly. You’d think I’d have gone through cold turkey over the strike.

I literally have had to be reminded three times that the NHL was on strike. Didn’t even miss it. Of course, given the play of the other three Philly teams over the last year, I may have just subconsciously given up altogether.

Just slipping back into the old and familiar Philadelphia sports teams mind set, are we?

487 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:24:07am

re: #477 Mattand

[Link: knowyourmeme.com…]

Gasping for air over here… :)

488 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:24:34am

re: #456 Mattand

8 is venturing into the touch-screen format. I’m strictly a DYI (I build my own) gamer and touchscreen stuff for that is useless to me. Also, it’s their first foray into the field and a lot of the tech for desktop usage is still catching up to it. I would avoid it at this point. If that’s something he wants you could always go with an iPad (one of our co-worker’s father is 86? and he loves his iPad).

I love 7. XP Pro was great as well, but 7 isn’t buggy at all for me with a high-end system, has great features and you can plug just about anything in and the default drivers will allow it to function properly.

Sorry, I know dick about pre-builts outside of knowing that I hate Dells with a passion. NewEgg.com has a good amount of pre-builts and I buy most of my parts from them, no problems whatsoever. Could always try reading the reviews.

[Link: www.newegg.com…] by # of reviews.

489 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:25:02am

I have a desktop because I can build (well, assemble) a desktop and did so a few years ago. I have a tablet - an HP touchpad - that I got for $20 from someone who got peeved when the then-incoming HP CEO turned out to have a personal hatred of all things palm and killed support. When I was ‘the computer guy’ for the library I learned that all the companies make good - and bad - machines, and support quality this year in no way guarantees next year (good or bad).

My general recommendation these days is the same as it was back when I was selling in the 1980s. Decide what you want it to do, both now and reasonable future. Find the software that does that. Figure out the hardware you need. Double the RAM and Hard disk specs and jump at least on tier in processor if you’re planning to use your computer more than three years due to normal growth of software demand. Price, and choose the second-least expensive option. Unless, that is, you’ve got someone you trust to build you a box to your needs and be around to fix the inevitable problems. Notice that nowhere in there do I mention brand, not even of components. Just… figure out what you need and get it.

490 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:25:06am
491 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:25:31am
492 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:26:32am

re: #475 Kragar

Ah, kiddie human shields.

Every politician uses them - Every Last One. Obama isn’t doing anything his predecessors haven’t done on one issue or another.

No Child Left Behind? President Bush had kids on the dais when signing into law.

493 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:26:32am

re: #491 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Are they sure its China and not a nameless supernatural evil like they’ve claimed in the past?

494 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:26:42am

re: #235 Lidane

Mississippi Guv: Criminals Can Get High-Capacity Magazines From The Soviet Union livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/mississi… via @tomkludt

— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) January 17, 2013

And I can get high grade weed from Colombia, and it is still illegal to possess. So Guv, what is your fucking point?

495 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:27:21am

re: #494 Eventual Carrion

And I can get high grade weed from Colombia, and it is still illegal to possess. So Guv, what is your fucking point?

I can get mine from the Mayan Empire…

496 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:27:44am

Also, classic: [Link: xkcd.com…]

497 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:27:50am

re: #492 lawhawk

Ah, kiddie human shields.

Every politician uses them - Every Last One. Obama isn’t doing anything his predecessors haven’t done on one issue or another.

No Child Left Behind? President Bush had kids on the dais when signing into law.

But Obama’s version if the No Child Left Behind Cover bill…


:0

498 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:28:08am

Why Is Pushing Creationism So Damn Important to Wingnuts?

On this blog, a lot of time is spent investigating patriarchal attitudes about women’s roles, and how in a patriarchy women are expected to be a servant class to cater to men and not people in their own right. In this system, children face a similar kind of oppression. As women are believed to be the servants of men, children are believed to be extensions of the father, and to display utter fealty to his way of thinking so he can demonstrate his power to other men. That’s why conservatives are so hostile to public education. The children are to believe what Daddy believes, no matter how silly Daddy’s beliefs, and if that requires censoring the truth and going out of your way to hide it from children, so be it. The rights of children to have an education will always bend in this worldview to the rights of the conservative Christian father to control the brain space of his kids.

That’s why conservatives are so dogged in trying to find ways to get into the schools and replace biology with creationism. It’s a symbolic battle for them. Winning it is achieving a symbolic demonstration of their belief that the father’s right to brainwash his child trumps the child’s right to an education.

499 jaunte  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:28:21am

Whole Foods CEO retracts accusation that Obamacare is fascism

Whole Foods founder and CEO John Mackey, after calling Obamacare “fascism,” now says he never realized people associate fascism with Nazi Germany.

Right.

500 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:28:35am

re: #495 Sol Berdinowitz

I can get mine from the Mayan Empire…

I got a hydroponic dude across town. Buy local, says I.

501 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:28:55am

re: #478 Feline Fearless Leader

hehehe. That’s amusing.

My father was massively anti-computer back in the 1980s. Saw them as time wasters compared to using other things at work, etc. etc. And got issued a Mac for home anyways. I took to it while I was home from college, mainly for game playing, but also for some other messing around. (No internet, but you could play with various programs.)

I think he eventually took to it as better software came out, I got a degree in computer science and flogged the usefulness to him, plus my mother got to using it for letter writing/work processing. With email it became an obvious asset since it saved on stamps and such - especially once the technology spread to relatives and others who he wanted to keep in contact with. Plus about that point all his kids were scattering to the four winds as well.

My mother took to it right off. But then again she was a librarian. ;)

Dad actually took to the computer fairly well. He has no problem using them, in that respect. Hated e-mail at first, until he realized he could deal with people he didn’t like without actually talking to them. Got over that in a hurry.

Part of the problem is that he still seems to have issues with the fact I know way more than he does about this stuff. The classic was back in ‘94 or so, when I told him I was going to Computer City to get some 3.5” floppy disks.

DAD: (Smirking) No, they’re hard disks.
MATT: No, they’re called floppys.
DAD: (Taps plastic housing) See, they’re hard.
MATT: Fine. Go to the computer store and tell them you want a pack of hard disks, and then tell me what their reaction is.
DAD: (Dead silence)

502 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:29:49am

re: #499 jaunte

Whole Foods CEO retracts accusation that Obamacare is fascism

“I’m sorry. I meant to compare Obama to Mussolini and not Hitler.”
///

503 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:29:50am

re: #498 Kragar

… the bullshit density of that tripe is HIGH

Look, they simply believe their religion and disbelieve stuff that contradicts the dogma. It’s fucking simple! Why is your author too stupid to understand it?

504 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:31:19am

re: #501 Mattand

Is he an engineer by chance?

505 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:31:46am

re: #469 Kragar

Good.

According to their (GoV) face book page, Google pulled it for unspecified reasons.

Please note: Google has pulled the Gates of Vienna blog. It happened suddenly, around 6-7 hours ago. The Baron is on the case.

I don’t have any further information apart from that, but am sure GoV will be back better than ever before we know it. (We can only hope not)

506 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:32:38am

re: #485 iossarian

This is on slashdot today - relevant?

[Link: hardware.slashdot.org…]

Possibly. Sounds cool, but I’m filing that under “I’ll Believe It When I See It”. The licensing issues for the operating systems, particularly OS X, leap to mind immediately.

507 Mattand  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:35:16am

re: #486 Feline Fearless Leader

Just slipping back into the old and familiar Philadelphia sports teams mind set, are we?

I prefer “realist”. Also, I’m not a good Philly fan, in that I don’t get depressed and violent when one of the teams loses. :)

508 blueraven  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:38:55am

re: #499 jaunte

Whole Foods CEO retracts accusation that Obamacare is fascism

I stopped shopping at whole foods years ago. They are over priced and rude. There are many alternatives. Shop local!

509 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:40:24am

re: #499 jaunte

According to that article, the CEO of whole foods has called the Affordable Care Act “socialism” then walked it back
then he had to call it “fascism” and didn’t really walk it back
And he’s a global warming denier.

It’s time for Whole Foods to fire him. Their customer base is progressive yuppies, he’s toxic.

510 stabby  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:41:41am

If he was smart he would have kept his stupid mouth shut.

511 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 12:13:50pm

re: #503 stabby

… the bullshit density of that tripe is HIGH

Look, they simply believe their religion and disbelieve stuff that contradicts the dogma. It’s fucking simple! Why is your author too stupid to understand it?

The dogma is incoherent. Learn something sometime, don’t just reject shit out of hand because it disagrees with your oversimplifications.

512 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:51:36pm

re: #501 Mattand

My dad bought me my first personal computer, a VIC 20, when he bought one for himself. He had retired and was driving my mom crazy hanging around the house with nothing to do. He got curious about computers and finally my mom told him to just go out and spend the money for god’s sakes. He bought two because he figured I’d like it too. He was right.


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