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91 comments
1 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:02:22pm

POEs law is so powerful sometimes. It wasn’t long ago that this would have been considered the darkest of black political humor, and unthinkable as a tragic reality.

2 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:06:13pm

re: #1 Mad Prophet Ludwig

Hello Ludwig!

POE?

3 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:09:50pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

POE?

Poe’s Law

4 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:20:29pm

Well, that suggests some easy fixes.

Disband the ATF, give the mission of enforcing federal gun laws to the FBI, and make sure future Congressional attempts to gut gun law enforcement are front page news.

5 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:20:30pm

I found this little tidbit on Wiki article about Michael Sullivan, the GOP nominee in 2007 to be Director of ATF. He was the first nominee the senate refused to confirm. Now being Bush’s nominee you would think it would have been possible or that it would have been blocked by a Democrat. You would be wrong.

In 2007, Sullivan was nominated by President George W. Bush to be the Director of the ATF. In 2006, this position had been made subject to the Senate confirmation process and Sullivan was the first nominee to be sent to the Senate.
Sullivan’s nomination was blocked by a Senate hold placed by Senators David Vitter (R-La.), Michael Crapo (R-Idaho) and Larry E. Craig (R-Idaho). They expressed their concern that the ATF is hostile to small gun dealers, pursuing them over zealously for small paperwork infractions and driving law-abiding small retailers out of business. They said that Sullivan was indifferent to their concerns and “exhibits a lack of willingness to address these problems.”[5]
Sullivan has been criticized frequently by one such affected gun dealer, Ryan Horsley of Red’s Trading Post, Twin Falls, Idaho, Idaho’s oldest gun dealership.,[5] who writes on the blog Red’s Trading Post. Horsley says that the ATF has a long track record of abusive behavior and Sullivan, as Acting Director, continued to defend the ATF’s abusive actions without any indication of making changes.[6]

This, from the party that thinks all we need to do is enforce the laws on the books. Except of course in so far as those laws may be applied to people who sell guns, or buy guns, or you know …use guns.

6 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:21:46pm
7 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:22:04pm

re: #5 Petero1818

So the Senate has _never_ confirmed an ATF director.

Can I haz new Senate, plz.

8 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:23:24pm

This is great - the Twitter archive comes with a search app that actually works. I’m looking at my 2010 fights with Andrew Breitbart…

9 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:27:02pm
10 TedStriker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:27:42pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

This is great - the Twitter archive comes with a search app that actually works. I’m looking at my 2010 fights with Andrew Breitbart…

re: #9 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Ahh, memories…

11 EmmaAnne  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:27:43pm

re: #3 Lidane

Poe’s Law

That’s great. I love this bit:

Another precedent posted on Usenet dates to 2001. Following the well-known schema of Arthur Clarke’s Third law, Alan Morgan wrote:[5] “Any sufficiently advanced parody is indistinguishable from a genuine kook.”

12 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:33:22pm
13 Skip Intro  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:34:19pm

re: #12 Lidane

Just half? In a sane country that number would be above 90%.

14 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:36:47pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

And of course the link is broken. I forgot they broke all their links.

15 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:37:52pm

The single greatest quote from the last Wheel of Time book:

“I have you. YOU CANNOT WIN!”
“I did not come here to win. I came here to kill you.”

16 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:39:03pm
17 jaunte  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:40:22pm

The NRA: Guns & Drunks

A couple of hours before the state House voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to approve the guns-in-bars bill, a National Rifle Association lobbyist was invited to speak to a meeting of the House Republican Caucus.

Her message was clear: The gun lobby opposed an amendment to the bill that would have banned guns in businesses serving alcohol that derived less than half of its income from food sales. And the NRA considered lawmakers’ upcoming vote on the amendment “a weighted vote” — one that would help decide whether a member wins the group’s coveted endorsements or its feared opposition in this year’s elections.
[Link: www.commercialappeal.com…]

18 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:41:25pm

re: #16 Gus

[Embedded content]

And somewhere, someone said “CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!”

19 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:42:02pm

re: #17 jaunte

The NRA: Guns & Drunks

Because nothing could possibly go wrong if a bunch of drunks in bars were packing heat. Nope. Not at all.

It’s shit like that which makes me glad I don’t work in a bar anymore.

20 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:42:40pm
21 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:43:51pm

re: #19 Lidane

Because nothing could possibly go wrong if a bunch of drunks in bars were packing heat. Nope. Not at all.

It’s shit like that which makes me glad I don’t work in a bar anymore.

Jon Stewart made the point, the ATF cannot tell a gun dealer not to sell a gun to a drunk person, but they should call the police right away if it looks like the drunk is going to drive away with it.

22 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:43:58pm

re: #18 Kragar

And somewhere, someone said “CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!”

But, if just the right shade of lipstick is applied to the pig, the half-ton slobbering hulk will magically transform into a unicorn. And the blessings of Galt will rain down upon the few and worthy job creators in the form of fresh-minted double eagles.

23 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:44:24pm

re: #17 jaunte

The NRA: Guns & Drunks

That’s strange. Texas CHL regulations forbid carrying anywhere that gets more than 50% of its income from booze (i.e. bars). Good enough for Texas but not the NRA? What the hell?

24 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:45:06pm

re: #18 Kragar

And somewhere, someone said “CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!”

25 jaunte  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:45:38pm

re: #23 Pawn of the Oppressor

That’s strange. Texas CHL regulations forbid carrying anywhere that gets more than 50% of its income from booze (i.e. bars). Good enough for Texas but not the NRA? What the hell?

Probably a regulation honored as much as speed limits.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

26 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:46:23pm

re: #23 Pawn of the Oppressor

That’s strange. Texas CHL regulations forbid carrying anywhere that gets more than 50% of its income from booze (i.e. bars). Good enough for Texas but not the NRA? What the hell?

Texas are a bunch of damn libruls when it comes to guns. Like that commie Reagan!

///

27 Kragar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:46:25pm

The official GOP/Tea Party response to every issue:

Youtube Video
28 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:47:11pm

re: #16 Gus

[Embedded content]

You know, it might not even necessarily be disagreement driving the low approval ratings. It might be attributable to the whole right wing just being such god-awful ****s about everything lately.

“Your kids got shot? F YOU MOAR GUNZ”
“Fiscal cliff? F YOU NO DEAL”
“Hurricane relief? F YOU NO MONEEZ”
“Debt emergency? F YOU CRASH THE NATION”

They are really the party of F YOU.

29 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:47:19pm

re: #24 Lidane

Senate is for sure, but presidency is not clear. Romney’s weakness as a candidate seems more significant than Tea Party contagion.

Also, what we’ve seen so far is probably not nearly enough madness to flip the House in 2014.

30 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:50:03pm

re: #28 Pawn of the Oppressor

You know, it might not even necessarily be disagreement driving the low approval ratings. It might be attributable to the whole right wing just being such god-awful ****s about everything lately.

“Your kids got shot? F YOU MOAR GUNZ”
“Fiscal cliff? F YOU NO DEAL”
“Hurricane relief? F YOU NO MONEEZ”
“Debt emergency? F YOU CRASH THE NATION”

They are really the party of F YOU.

Of course.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
~John Kenneth Galbraith

So F YOU is basically the party platform.

31 A Mom Anon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:53:14pm

re: #29 EPR-radar

I think the tea party infection actually is why they had such weak candidates to begin with. The rank and file GOP is scared shitless of the tea party and the constituency that follows them. This is why they couldn’t nominate a conservative with any sort of scruples or common sense. I’d almost bet my (non-existent) fortune that just as many GOP members of government get threats and assorted forms of intimidation as Dems do. Throw in the threat of big money primary challenges if they disobey orders and you end up with the fun filled fiesta of fuckery that was the GOP primary and Mitt’s run for President.

32 celticdragon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:55:38pm

These laws targeting the ATF are retaliation for abuses that the agency perpetrated back in the late 80’s and some of the 90’s under some, shall we say, over zealous law enforcement that hurt people who should not have been hurt. (One particularly nasty incident involved an Ohio reserve police officer with a legal and registered machine gun collection that was often used for training purposes around several agencies. A personal falling out with the chief lead to a complaint being made to the ATF under false pretenses. The ATF trashed his house and roughed up his pregnant wife pretty bad, causing her to miscarry an hour later. A federal judge later ordered the gun collection to be returned to the officer and also ordered that none of the feds could be armed while returning the collection, as a precaution it seems to preclude some sort of accident happening to the reserve officer)

Statements from the agency about supporting political policies that would have banned hunting rifles and almost all center fire rifle ammunition that could penetrate a standard tactical vest (and that means virtually all hunting ammunition more powerful that an .22 rimfire) did not help. ATF officers have also engaged in gender based harassment of female gun buyers at a number of locations in Virginia.

Soooo….

The NRA has a long, long memory, and they bided their time to get payback. They could not actually destroy the agency in full, but they could do a lot of damage.

In honesty, I do think that some of the ATF wounds are just deserts…but now the NRA vendetta is actually harming needed law enforcement. It is time to lay off of some of this shit.

33 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 3:56:21pm

re: #31 A Mom Anon

Good point. I was thinking about things like Akin’s effect on Romney in the general, but the skewing of the GOP primary field toward nuttiness is a more significant issue.

Another factor is gerrymandered house districts that are so safely Republican that the only competitive elections they see are GOP primaries, where the nutballs are in higher concentration.

34 A Mom Anon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:01:13pm

re: #33 EPR-radar

Yep, my congresscritter hasn’t had a challenger since he took office. That includes a primary. He’s a tea party whack job too,so yay.

35 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:01:58pm

re: #32 celticdragon

These laws targeting the ATF are retaliation for abuses that the agency perpetrated back in the late 80’s and some of the 90’s under some, shall we say, over zealous law enforcement that hurt people who should not have been hurt. (One particularly nasty incident involved an Ohio reserve police officer with a legal and registered machine gun collection that was often used for training purposes around several agencies. A personal falling out with the chief lead to a complaint being made to the ATF under false pretenses. The ATF trashed his house and roughed up his pregnant wife pretty bad, causing her to miscarry an hour later. A federal judge later ordered the gun collection to be returned to the officer and also ordered that none of the feds could be armed while returning the collection, as a precaution it seems to preclude some sort of accident happening to the reserve officer)

Statements from the agency about supporting political policies that would have banned hunting rifles and almost all center fire rifle ammunition that could penetrate a standard tactical vest (and that means virtually all hunting ammunition more powerful that an .22 rimfire) did not help. ATF officers have also engaged in gender based harassment of female gun buyers at a number of locations in Virginia.

Soooo….

The NRA has a long, long memory, and they bided their time to get payback. They could not actually destroy the agency in full, but they could do a lot of damage.

In honesty, I do think that some of the ATF wounds are just deserts…but now the NRA vendetta is actually harming needed law enforcement. It is time to lay off of some of this shit.

Some of those incidents turned out to be not so clear. And the ironic thing about the policies that drew such ire was that they were requested by law enforcement - there was a big deal at the time about bullets going through vests and law enforcement not being happy with that.

The ATF was hated when it was formed, though it was better known by another label: revenooers. It wasn’t part of DOJ because the main reason for existence was people skipping out on taxes - see whiskey rebellion for example. It’s never shaken that hatred.

Did (and does) it abuse authority? Yep. But in my investigations, a lot less than they’re accused of doing.

36 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:05:07pm
37 Skip Intro  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:05:59pm

re: #32 celticdragon

So is this a good reason for keeping the ATF from having a director? Seems just the opposite to me.

38 celticdragon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:09:47pm

re: #37 Skip Intro

So is this a good reason for keeping the ATF from having a director? Seems just the opposite to me.

I agree.

What could have been a useful examination of agency abuses along with implementation of rational safeguards turned into a free for all vendetta.

39 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:10:32pm

re: #32 celticdragon

I read up a bit on these abuses, and the majority of the abuses listed by the NRA in their reply to HW Bush were War on Drugs abuses.

Mighty convenient to target ATF for all of the War on Drugs crap.

40 Lidane  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:17:09pm

Irony:

41 celticdragon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:19:18pm

re: #39 EPR-radar

I read up a bit on these abuses, and the majority of the abuses listed by the NRA in their reply to HW Bush were War on Drugs abuses.

Mighty convenient to target ATF for all of the War on Drugs crap.

Possibly so. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of bleed over between the idiocy of the “war on drugs” under the FBI and virtually every other Federal Law Enforcement agency, including the ATF, the Marshals etc and they all tend to get together on larger raids and operations, including raids that go bad or were based on bad info. Everybody gets a bite at the shit sandwich.

Militarization of law enforcement, local, state and federal, is a huge, huge problem and is attracting attention from both the left and the right. ATF, and the FBI HRT are two of the prime examples of significant public image issues regarding lots of ninja black uniformed guys with MP-5 submachine guns screaming at terrified people and threatening to blow them away if they twitch.

I’m not so sure that the NRA is really concerned about that aspect of civil liberties, though.

42 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:20:12pm

re: #40 Lidane

Interesting. My #4 above was based on the assumption that the ATF is useful for the NRA as a neutered and ineffective target to be used for propaganda purposes. Nice to see confirmation so quickly.

43 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:23:18pm

re: #41 celticdragon

Good points, especially that the NRA could care less about civil liberties.

I recently re-watched Brazil , and it occurred to me that the over the top depictions of police action in that movie probably now take place any time there is a federal bust of more than 0.5 oz of pot.

44 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:24:49pm

re: #41 celticdragon

For the record, militarized law enforcement is pretty much useless for everything, and especially so for firearms issues.

45 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:27:33pm

XCELLENT!

46 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:29:42pm

I was thinking there was something I’d read about the miscarriage case.

See here. See also here. Basically there’s more to the story, like forged forms for purchase authorization of automatic weapons and medical specialists’ (plural) testimony that Ms. Katona’s miscarriage happened before the ‘raid’.

47 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:32:35pm

Did somebody say Guns n’ Drunks?

yep, on my fb

For any of us who were raised with strick in-home gun control, the idea of alcohol and guns even in the same sentence is abhorrant.

48 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:34:41pm

re: #46 kirkspencer

Excellent research.

As Gomer Pyle would say, Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.

RW nonsense has a tendency to fade away like farts in the wind in courtrooms (more recent examples are the marriage cases).

49 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:39:30pm

I think after Ruby Ridge, the ATF, lost a lot of support.

The agency needs to be scrapped. Why can’t the FBI do Firearms and the one of the various Public Health agencies do Alcohol and Tobacco.

Lumping the three together seems to be a moral decision based on the archaic idea of VICE.

It it was really about vice, then prostitution and gambling would be lumped in as well.

50 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:41:34pm

re: #48 EPR-radar

Excellent research.

As Gomer Pyle would say, Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.

RW nonsense has a tendency to fade away like farts in the wind in courtrooms (more recent examples are the marriage cases).

Yeah. worth noting is that the incident happened between Ruby Ridge and Waco. There’s a net of legends of misbehavior around that time that don’t stand to scrutiny.

Run an example, most will tell you (as Celticdragon did) that BATF was ordered to return the weapons - with a number of filips. In reality, no. Charges against Mr. Katona were dismissed, but it was because nobody could prove who actually forged the documents. That they were forgeries was established to the court’s satisfaction, and all weapons (remember, MULTIPLE automatic weapons) purchased with the forged documents were kept. It was the legitimately purchased weapons that were returned.

The Katona lawsuit against the ATF was dismissed.

51 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:43:31pm

re: #49 FemNaziBitch

The article referenced in #40 is interesting on this point. ATF used to be used Alcohol and Tobacco only, and was a revenue generating organization (e.g., going after illegal distilleries).

More recently, the NRA apparently helped keep ATF alive as a separate agency in the early 1980s, based on the belief, since confirmed, that a separate agency would be easier to neuter and also be a more convenient target for propaganda.

52 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:47:04pm

This was just posted on Rockefeller University’s intranet message board:

Category - Unofficial Announcements
Item - Have stegosaurus egg, want MRI
Description - Hello,

I recently acquired a stegosaurus egg. I have no scientific need to do so, but I would be delighted to take a gander inside. If you would like to look inside and have some extra time on an MRI or CAT scan or something, maybe we could work something out.

best wishes,
alex

53 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:49:09pm

re: #52 Obdicut

This was just posted on Rockefeller University’s intranet message board:

So, does it have a label that says ‘STEGOSAURUS EGG - Handle with Care”

Or is it really an Ostrich egg?

54 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:49:22pm

re: #52 Obdicut

This was just posted on Rockefeller University’s intranet message board:

*Insert Jurassic Park theme here*

55 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:49:56pm

re: #49 FemNaziBitch

I think after Ruby Ridge, the ATF, lost a lot of support.

The agency needs to be scrapped. Why can’t the FBI do Firearms and the one of the various Public Health agencies do Alcohol and Tobacco.

Lumping the three together seems to be a moral decision based on the archaic idea of VICE.

It it was really about vice, then prostitution and gambling would be lumped in as well.

Because Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms aren’t about crime or vice. They’re about money. More specifically, taxes.

Alcohol, tobacco, and guns were (and are) big revenue generators. The government wanted its piece of that profit. A lot of the producers thought the money should be theirs and theirs alone. ATF (which has had various names and detailed operations throughout our history) was created to find the people trying to cheat on those taxes and make sure they paid. Stuff that was produced for which the taxes weren’t paid was to be destroyed.

56 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:50:00pm

re: #51 EPR-radar

The article referenced in #40 is interesting on this point. ATF used to be used Alcohol and Tobacco only, and was a revenue generating organization (e.g., going after illegal distilleries).

More recently, the NRA apparently helped keep ATF alive as a separate agency in the early 1980s, based on the belief, since confirmed, that a separate agency would be easier to neuter and also be a more convenient target for propaganda.

I’m so burned out researching the issue. Thanks for making that clear.

57 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:50:37pm

re: #50 kirkspencer

It is often interesting to dig into these political urban legends. One I am familiar with is the famous McDonalds coffee lawsuit, often trotted out as an example of juries/tort law that is totally out of control.

The real story isn’t so one sided. Turns out, McDonald’s wanted to keep the coffee hot for as long as possible after it was dispensed, to reduce cost. The obvious solution is to dispense the coffee at temperatures just below the boiling point, to maximize the time the coffee is hot enough to serve.

This was implemented, and there was a rash of injuries where people got themselves seriously burned with this abnormally hot coffee. These early cases settled for peanuts, and McDonalds didn’t change its practices because having a shorter shelf life for the coffee would cost more than the settlements.

Then, someone got a lap full of this stuff, and had extensive 3rd degree burns.

58 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:51:12pm

re: #53 FemNaziBitch

So, does it have a label that says ‘STEGOSAURUS EGG - Handle with Care”

Or is it really an Ostrich egg?

He bought it at Stegosaurus Eggs R-US

59 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:52:37pm

re: #57 EPR-radar

It is often interesting to dig into these political urban legends. One I am familiar with is the famous McDonalds coffee lawsuit, often trotted out as an example of juries/tort law that is totally out of control.

The real story isn’t so one sided. Turns out, McDonald’s wanted to keep the coffee hot for as long as possible after it was dispensed, to reduce cost. The obvious solution is to dispense the coffee at temperatures just below the boiling point, to maximize the time the coffee is hot enough to serve.

This was implemented, and there was a rash of injuries where people got themselves burned with this abnormally hot coffee. These early cases settled for peanuts, and McDonalds didn’t change its practices because having a shorter shelf life for the coffee would cost more than the settlements.

Then, someone got a lap full of this stuff, and had extensive 3rd degree burns.

As with most soundbites and headlines. Further research tells the full story and it usually leads the reader to the opposite conclusion than the headline indicates.

Well, often enough to warrant consant research.

60 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:55:55pm

re: #55 kirkspencer

Because Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms aren’t about crime or vice. They’re about money. More specifically, taxes.

tax on Vice. Yes, I think some memories are coming back to me.

Well, I suspect some congress critter will want to make them the Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearm and Pseudophed Agency in due time.

Not that it makes any sense, eitiher.

61 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:58:05pm
The ATF was formerly part of the United States Department of the Treasury, having been formed in 1886 as the “Revenue Laboratory” within the Treasury Department’s Bureau of Internal Revenue. The history of ATF can be subsequently traced to the time of the revenuers or “revenoors”[6] and the Bureau of Prohibition, which was formed as a unit of the Bureau of Internal Revenue in 1920, was made an independent agency within the Treasury Department in 1927, was transferred to the Justice Department in 1930, and became, briefly, a division of the FBI in 1933.
62 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:58:27pm

re: #59 FemNaziBitch

I’ve done an English lesson on that very incident. At first, I present like, “Woman burns herself with coffee, sues, and wins millions” to which my students usually respond, “Stupid Americans”.

Then when they find out the rest of the story, their attitude changes, and they fault McDonald’s for being negligent. McD’a knew they had a problem, and did nothing to correct it due to cost considerations.

63 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:59:26pm
In the wake of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, President George W. Bush signed into law the Homeland Security Act of 2002. In addition to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the law shifted ATF from the Department of the Treasury to the Department of Justice. The agency’s name was changed to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. However, the agency still was referred to as the “ATF” for all purposes. Additionally, the task of collection of federal tax revenue derived from the production of tobacco and alcohol products and the regulatory function related to protecting the public in issues related to the production of alcohol, previously handled by the Bureau of Internal Revenue as well as by ATF, was transferred to the newly established Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB), which remained within the Treasury Department. These changes took effect January 24, 2003.
[edit]

from the above wiki

what a fucked-up situation.

who is really making the money from this farce?

64 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:01:12pm

re: #62 Dr Lizardo

I’ve done an English lesson on that very incident. At first, I present like, “Woman burns herself with coffee, sues, and wins millions” to which my students usually respond, “Stupid Americans”.

Then when they find out the rest of the story, their attitude changes, and they fault McDonald’s for being negligent. McD’a knew they had a problem, and did nothing to correct it due to cost considerations.

I think there was something similar about the Rodney King arrest. And many others, I’m too tired to remember. I can’t even remember if the Rodney King hoopla was correct or not.

65 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:02:23pm

re: #49 FemNaziBitch

Lumping the three together seems to be a moral decision based on the archaic idea of VICE.

It it was really about vice, then prostitution and gambling would be lumped in as well.

It’s more about alcohol, tobacco, and firearms being both regulated and taxed industries. The FBI doesn’t issue tax stamps and the FDA is more about regulatory safety than criminal investigation, which is reserved for DEA. The BATFE covers a unique set of the economy that heavily overlaps both legit business and criminal enterprises. Even if from a public health angle it would have benefits, we simply aren’t going to get rid of guns, alcohol or tobacco entirely, so we tax and regulate. Explosives are integral to many modern mining operations and we need people to produce, handle and use them, therefore an agency to oversee that industry.

Gambling and prostitution are reserved to the states.

The DEA should probably be abolished with the FDA enforcing the industry from a public health, safety and treatment perspective. There’s a good reason to keep the BATFE functions separate from FBI however, in as much as

66 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:02:28pm

I would think it would be difficult for any individual ATF officer (?) to be sure what his/her job really was.

67 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:03:21pm

re: #66 FemNaziBitch

I would think it would be difficult for any individual ATF officer (?) to be sure what his/her job really was.

These days, yes. About a decade ago, no.

68 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:03:39pm

re: #67 kirkspencer

These days, yes. About a decade ago, no.

Sorry, lost time. About fifteen years ago, no.

69 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:04:28pm

re: #68 kirkspencer

five years here, five years there, pretty soon you’re looking at real time…

70 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:04:30pm

re: #65 goddamnedfrank

It’s more about alcohol, tobacco, and firearms being both regulated and taxed industries. The FBI doesn’t issue tax stamps and the FDA is more about regulatory safety than criminal investigation, which is reserved for DEA. The BATFE covers a unique set of the economy that heavily overlaps both legit business and criminal enterprises. Even if from a public health angle it would have benefits, we simply aren’t going to get rid of guns, alcohol or tobacco entirely, so we tax and regulate. Explosives are integral to many modern mining operations and we need people to produce, handle and use them, therefore an agency to oversee that industry.

Gambling and prostitution are reserved to the states.

The DEA should probably be abolished with the FDA enforcing the industry from a public health, safety and treatment perspective. There’s a good reason to keep the BATFE functions separate from FBI however, in as much as

Well, we need to decide once and for all and quit shifting the authority and chain of command around. Makes me think it’s really a shell game and I am highly suspicious of such things. .

71 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:06:13pm

OFFS

72 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:06:28pm

I think it is still about vice

Taxing and Regulation, but still about the old idea’s of Vice.

73 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:07:00pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

OFFS

[Embedded content]

I’m ignoring anything to do with Rush Limbaugh. I’d like not to break things today.

74 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:08:14pm

I have to be productive.

Have a great evening all.

75 TedStriker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:09:46pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

OFFS

[Embedded content]

Notice the #TakeBackTheCulture hashtag: these people are wanting to take us back to shit like the Hays Code (and worse), no doubt.

Edit: good thing this JSWardell is the only clown using it right now…

76 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:12:51pm

re: #62 Dr Lizardo

It is also a useful case study to use when confronted with a free market fundamentalist. The realities of how corporate cost cutting works need more publicity than they get.

77 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:19:07pm

re: #64 FemNaziBitch

One day, before a lesson, I had my laptop out in the classroom and I reading Free Republic for a good chuckle…..their insanity amuses me. One of my students, who was there as well, what was so funny. So I told her, “Just read through the comments”…..I can’t remember what the story was, but something controversial. I went and made some coffee.

When I came back, she was still reading with her eyes the size of dinner plates and her mouth hanging open. She asked, “Is this some kind of satire site? No one can be this crazy. These people are insane - what they’re saying would get them thrown in jail in a lot of countries in Europe.” And I said, “No, that’s real.”

She reads it from time to time even now, and she still marvels over the batshit insanity on display there.

78 celticdragon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:19:34pm

re: #46 kirkspencer

I was thinking there was something I’d read about the miscarriage case.

See here. See also here. Basically there’s more to the story, like forged forms for purchase authorization of automatic weapons and medical specialists’ (plural) testimony that Ms. Katona’s miscarriage happened before the ‘raid’.

The forged forms charge was dismissed and the judge agreed to return the guns. Officer Katona says that the sheriff set him up after a personal disagreement that led to serious animus. I had not heard about the medical testimony about Mrs Katona and I must admit that I have never heard of anything remotely like what the medical experts allege happened to her where a female body can continue to develop as though a pregnancy were viable for some days or weeks without any sign that the fetus has already died.

In any event, one side, including a cop, says they were mistreated and the other side says they were not. The judge appears to have sided with the Katonas.

79 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:21:11pm

re: #76 EPR-radar

I also like to use the infamous example of the Ford Pinto Runabout, aka The Amazing Exploding Hatchback. All because a minor fix to the gas tank would’ve added to the cost of production over the length of the production run.

80 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:24:23pm

re: #73 FemNaziBitch

I’m ignoring anything to do with Rush Limbaugh. I’d like not to break things today.

#TGDN has been Godwinning all week long (and ever since a blackity black Black man was elected POTUS), but they’re clutching their pearls over Bob Shieffer saying NRA=Nazis.

These people are freaking demented, none of them should be allowed to get near a supersoaker, much less an actual gun.

81 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:26:57pm

re: #80 Vicious Babushka

These people are freaking demented, none of them should be allowed to get near a supersoaker, much less an actual gun.

None of them should be able to get near anything more dangerous than a wooden butter spreader from IKEA.

82 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:27:14pm

This is not a “kid’s” letter, this is a typical 40-year-old RWNJ letter.

83 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:27:35pm

re: #81 Dr Lizardo

None of them should be able to get near anything more dangerous than a wooden butter spreader from IKEA.

BUTTER SPREADER CONTROL!

84 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:27:42pm

Outrageous outrage! That, and, busing. //

85 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:28:32pm

NOT a Godwin.

86 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:29:43pm

re: #81 Dr Lizardo

None of them should be able to get near anything more dangerous than a wooden butter spreader from IKEA.

These are deranged freaks here, and they’ve already talked about the perils of blunt object (e.g. hammers).

So, they should be limited to nothing more dangerous than a small pat of butter.

87 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:30:10pm

re: #82 Vicious Babushka

This is not a “kid’s” letter, this is a typical 40-year-old RWNJ letter.

[Embedded content]

Dear Beth,

If someone your age has guns, your parents are exactly the sort of people who should never be allowed to have them. I am sorry they care about guns more than they do about you.

88 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:30:31pm

re: #87 Renaissance_Man

Dear Beth,

If someone your age has guns, your parents are exactly the sort of people who should never be allowed to have them. I am sorry they care about guns more than they do about you.

Beth is 40 years old.

89 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:40:56pm

re: #83 Vicious Babushka

BUTTER SPREADER CONTROL!

Actually, with some of these wackos, if they were armed with an IKEA wooden butter spreader, they’d shout “WOLVERINES!!”

90 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:41:46pm

re: #86 EPR-radar

These are deranged freaks here, and they’ve already talked about the perils of blunt object (e.g. hammers).

So, they should be limited to nothing more dangerous than a small pat of butter.

I wouldn’t trust them with that. The only way to be safe with these folks is them in straitjackets.

91 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:00:56pm

re: #78 celticdragon

The forged forms charge was dismissed and the judge agreed to return the guns. Officer Katona says that the sheriff set him up after a personal disagreement that led to serious animus. I had not heard about the medical testimony about Mrs Katona and I must admit that I have never heard of anything remotely like what the medical experts allege happened to her where a female body can continue to develop as though a pregnancy were viable for some days or weeks without any sign that the fetus has already died.

In any event, one side, including a cop, says they were mistreated and the other side says they were not. The judge appears to have sided with the Katonas.

No, if the judge had sided with the Katonas their lawsuit would not have been dismissed. The only “siding” was that the forged documents could not be attributed to the Katonas. Only the guns not purchased on forged documents were returned.


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