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1 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:21:40pm

If only Jon Stewart was a real American, then he’d understand.

2 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:23:09pm
3 darthstar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:27:21pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Man did evolve from apes and shit. Big Ray is a missing link who has yet to evolve.

4 darthstar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:29:06pm

re: #3 darthstar

Man did evolve from apes and shit. Big Ray is a missing link who has yet to evolve.

Correction: Man did evolve from apes. Big Ray evolved from shit. Tweeting now.

Done.

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:29:57pm

Born With Monkey Asses

From one of my all-time fav records, “Hell with the Lid Off” by MC 900 Ft. Jesus.

6 Gus  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:33:40pm

Derp. There weren’t any executive orders. Derpity derpy do.

7 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:33:43pm
8 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:35:27pm
9 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:40:30pm

Jesus, MC 900 Foot - Study Guide & Homework Help - eNotes.com

The first release by MC 900 Ft. Jesus was an EP entitled Born with Monkey Asses recorded on Griffin’s own label and released in the late 1980s. The name of the disc was derived from the title track, which samples a paranoid schizophrenic patient discussing his theories on what the doctors in the psychiatric facility were doing to the research animals at night. “I’m fascinated by the way the insane build up a picture of the world based on whatever information they get and assemble it in a completely unique way,” Griffin told Dery in Keyboard. Another source of inspiration for Griffin’s rantings were the people he encountered while working in a Dallas alternative record store for several years.

10 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:40:41pm

re: #7 freetoken

Whole Foods CEO John Macky is having quite the week:

Whole Foods CEO calls climate change ‘perfectly natural and not necessarily bad’

Heard part 1 & part 2 on NPR. Guy is pretty much a whiner. Gotta find the acutal quote, but paraphrasing the dude: Everyone wants something, if its not the employees, its the vendors.

What a great job.

11 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:41:26pm

I wonder if John Macky has figured out from where he’s going to get his future Brazil nuts?

Severe droughts in Amazon linked to climate change, says study

An area in the Amazon twice the size of California is experiencing what scientists call a “megadrought.” The prolonged drought, which began in 2005, has caused widespread damage to the area and may possibly be a sign that the rainforest is showing the first signs of large-scale degradation due to climate change.

A research team, led by NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, analyzed nearly a decade of satellite data over the Amazon. The team looked at rainfall measurements and the moisture content of the forest canopy.

[…]

Persistent effects of a severe drought on Amazonian forest canopy

Recent Amazonian droughts have drawn attention to the vulnerability of tropical forests to climate perturbations. Satellite and in situ observations have shown an increase in fire occurrence during drought years and tree mortality following severe droughts, but to date there has been no assessment of long-term impacts of these droughts across landscapes in Amazonia. Here, we use satellite microwave observations of rainfall and canopy backscatter to show that more than 70 million hectares of forest in western Amazonia experienced a strong water deficit during the dry season of 2005 and a closely corresponding decline in canopy structure and moisture. Remarkably, and despite the gradual recovery in total rainfall in subsequent years, the decrease in canopy backscatter persisted until the next major drought, in 2010. The decline in backscatter is attributed to changes in structure and water content associated with the forest upper canopy. The persistence of low backscatter supports the slow recovery (>4 y) of forest canopy structure after the severe drought in 2005. The result suggests that the occurrence of droughts in Amazonia at 5–10 y frequency may lead to persistent alteration of the forest canopy.

12 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:47:29pm

WTF Charles.

Isn’t this a repeat from earlier?

13 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:48:58pm

re: #12 Bubblehead II

Er, no - it’s the next night’s show.

14 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:49:47pm

re: #7 freetoken

CEO John Macky is rich enough to prevent any ill effects of global warming from personally affecting him during his life span.

According to libertarians, that is a complete and conclusive solution to global warming.

15 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:50:47pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

Er, no - it’s the next night’s show.

Seems to me be a repeat. Perhaps Jon is running out of material.

16 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:53:49pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Mark Griffin is tragically unappreciated. The MC 900 Ft. Jesus albums contain some truly great stuff.

Good Dallas Observer article about him, in case you’re interested.

17 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:54:00pm

A well done little photo essay worth the effort to view:

Illegal oil refineries in the Niger Delta – in pictures

Is this the low-cost industrious free-market spirit which will make John Macky proud?

18 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:55:20pm

MC 900 Ft. Jesus - But If You Go

19 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:55:23pm

Did anyone listen to the StoryCorps audio I posted last thread? It was another whoa while driving.

[Link: storycorps.org…]

20 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:55:24pm

Gun nuts yesterday, gun nuts today, what the difference?

Actually, it isn’t hard to see. Yesterdays story was exploring the “just enforce existing laws canard”.

Todays show is “Obama the gun grabber”.

21 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:55:28pm

re: #15 Bubblehead II

I didn’t see it that way - the Wednesday show focused on the ATF/NRA issues, Thursday was on the ridiculously exaggerated right wing reactions to PBO’s gun control statement. I don’t see much overlap.

22 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:56:40pm

re: #21 Charles Johnson

I didn’t see it that way - the Wednesday show focused on the ATF/NRA issues, Thursday was on the ridiculously exaggerated right wing reactions to PBO’s gun control statement. I don’t see much overlap.

Frankly, there is at least a week’s worth of material on the various interlocking flavors of gun nuttery.

23 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 5:59:56pm

What an amazing collection of video clips of RW crap stains. Where do they find all these loons? Are they grown in tanks in Liberty University?

24 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:00:20pm
25 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:02:05pm

I see Michelle Malkin’s latest column is a rant-fest about how Jackie Chan is an agent for the communist Chinese, or something like that.

Seriously, who tries to make a big issue out of an actor’s beliefs just because said actor is famous?

There are 7 billion people in the world and nearly all of them couldn’t care less about his political beliefs, even if he’s one of the most watched film stars in the world.

26 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:04:27pm

MOAR GUNZ as a retroactive solution to slavery may just be the stupidest gun nut talking point of all. But the competition is certainly fierce.

27 b_sharp  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:06:16pm

re: #26 EPR-radar

MOAR GUNZ as a retroactive solution to slavery may just be the stupidest gun nut talking point of all. But the competition is certainly fierce.

I love that one. It really accents the looniness of their thought processes.

28 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:08:04pm

re: #21 Charles Johnson

Went back and compared the two. They are different while at the same time making some of the same points, using as you say,
ridiculously exaggerated right wing reactions.

Seemed like a rerun to me. But that’s just me

29 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:08:22pm

re: #27 b_sharp

Sometimes they then start talking about tribal warfare in the slave trading era in Africa while trying to work in pro-gun talking points.

If derp could be harvested for energy, that right there is an infinite source.

30 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:08:55pm

re: #28 Bubblehead II

Sheesh, tough room we got heah.

31 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:10:33pm

re: #28 Bubblehead II

“Ridiculously exaggerated”. Interesting. We’ll see about this.

The NRA and Fox News are official organs of the Republican party. It’s not like Stewart has been talking to the real fringes here (e.g., neo-Nazi militia types).

32 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:11:34pm

Also, Rep. Steve King (yes, that one) held a hearing on his English as the Official Language of the US bill (which has no chance of really going anywhere outside of the House), and invited the chairperson of the ProEnglish organization to testify:

Strange thing about ProEnglishOrg is that they aren’t just concerned about language…

ProEnglish to Host Panel Discusson at CPAC 2012:
“The Failure of Multiculturalism”

WHAT:

“The Failure of Multiculturalism: How the pursuit of diversity is weakening the American identity”

WHO:

Robert Vandervoort, Executive Director, ProEnglish - Moderator

John Derbyshire, contributing editor at National Review and author of We Are Doomed

Peter Brimelow, author of Alien Nation and editor of VDARE.com

Dr. Rosalie Porter, author of American Immigrant: My Life In Three Languages, and ProEnglish Chairwoman

Dr. Serge Trifkovic, foreign affairs editor, Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture, and author, inter alia, of Defeating Jihad

[…]

Yup, these are the type of people with whom Rep. Steve King likes to hang.

33 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:13:10pm

re: #32 freetoken

Good research. This demonstrates 1 degree of separation between a sitting member of the US Congress and White Nationalists.

34 bratwurst  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:13:38pm

re: #28 Bubblehead II

ridiculously exaggerated right wing reactions.

Seemed like a rerun to me

Started about 4 years ago, set to continue re-running for 4 more years.

35 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:14:34pm
36 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:16:46pm

re: #33 EPR-radar

Good research. This demonstrates 1 degree of separation between a sitting member of the US Congress and White Nationalists.

Given King’s own statements, there are 0 degrees of separation.

37 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:16:46pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Sheesh, tough room we got heah.

Well, If I got to learn something new, Is there a better place to do it in?

38 b_sharp  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:17:55pm

re: #37 Bubblehead II

Well, If I got to learn something new, Is there a better place to do it in?

Fox News - as long as the information doesn’t have to be accurate.

39 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:19:15pm

re: #38 b_sharp

Fox News - as long as the information doesn’t have to be accurate.

I want valid info, not rwng fluff..

40 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:21:05pm

re: #36 freetoken

Wouldn’t surprise me (birds of a feather and all), but I didn’t have the facts on hand for that.

41 ProBosniaLiberal  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:22:03pm

re: #35 Charles Johnson

I mistook that for Peter King for a moment.

42 Kragar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:38:09pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Because we’ve read more than one fucking book in our entire lives

43 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:41:25pm

Observations on the NY SAFE Act of 2013 gun law:

If you own a ten round magazine you can only load seven rounds in it, unless you’re at a firing range where you’re allowed to load to full ten round capacity. Exactly where the State’s compelling interest lies in reducing someone to loading only seven rounds in magazines stored at home, in a safe, isn’t immediately apparent. Someone intent on using the gun for an illegal act isn’t likely to be deterred by the risk of being charged with an additional misdemeanor.

The law specifically references “magazines” instead of “ammunition feeding devices.” So belt fed semi autos are exempted, as are revolvers.

A round chambered into battery is not counted against the seven round limit. Therefore it is legal to load seven rounds into a semi auto, cycle the action, remove the magazine to load back up to seven and reinsert. It’s a misdemeanor action however to load eight rounds into the magazine and cycle the action, resulting in the exact same condition.

M1 Garand en bloc clips hold eight rounds, but when inserted into the internal magazine the bolt must strip off the eighth round and feed it into the chamber. Since en bloc clips aren’t magazines, keeping them full with eight rounds should nominally be legal, however in that split second between the time they’re inserted into the magazine but before the bolt closes, stripping off the top round, the magazine is holding eight rounds. Therefore a good challenge will ask a court to determine if the law unconstitutionally vague because it doesn’t state whether magazine capacity is measured with the bolt open or closed.

Police aren’t exempted. Unless the law is amended, which is all but certain, police officers will be limited to seven rounds in their duty magazines.

44 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:46:47pm

Mali conflict exposes White House-Pentagon split

Officials disagree on the degree of danger posed by Islamist militants in West Africa. Some top U.S. military officials warn aggressive action is needed.

If only there was some sort of inexpensive unmanned aircraft that annoys moonbats that we could use to asplode terrorists with. That would be nice.

45 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:48:25pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

These are solvable problems. Laws are complicated. “Thou shalt not kill” in the Bible becomes page after page of legalese on the various degrees of murder, what constitutes self-defense etc.

The fact that crafting legislation is hard is almost never a sufficient reason to do nothing.

An amendment will be passed to exempt law enforcement. Challenging for unconstitutional vagueness sounds like a wank-fest for a Liberty U right wing hack.

46 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:50:45pm
U.S. officials have ruled out putting troops on the ground, except in small numbers and only to support the French.

Baguette, Monsieur?

47 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:54:40pm

re: #45 EPR-radar

These are solvable problems. Laws are complicated. “Thou shalt not kill” in the Bible becomes page after page of legalese on the various degrees of murder, what constitutes self-defense etc.

Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation, the original Hebrew is murder. Saying laws are complicated ignores the fact that they should not be overly complicated.

The fact that crafting legislation is hard is almost never a sufficient reason to do nothing.

Never said it was, strawman argument.

An amendment will be passed to exempt law enforcement. Challenging for unconstitutional vagueness sounds like a wank-fest for a Liberty U right wing hack.

Well, that’s one way of dealing with a legitimate Constitutional question that has plenty of legal precedent, just be insultingly dismissive about it.

48 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:55:39pm

Night Lizards. The technological Genie has been let out of the bottle. For good or bad.

Do we embrace it and attempt to control it, or do we attempt to stuff it back into the bottle and forsake what we have learned?

49 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:56:04pm

Lance just said, “We were facetiming.” Does that just mean being with people in the meat world?

50 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:56:21pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Baguette, Monsieur?

With Velveeta.

51 Kragar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:57:01pm

re: #49 wrenchwench

Lance just said, “We were facetiming.” Does that just mean being with people in the meat world?

It means I need to change the channel, because I could give a rat’s ass what Lance Armstrong has to say.

52 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:59:26pm

re: #50 freetoken

With Velveeta.

Vintage Mad Dog

53 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 6:59:31pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

M1 Garand en bloc clips hold eight rounds, but when inserted into the internal magazine the bolt must strip off the eighth round and feed it into the chamber. Since en bloc clips aren’t magazines, keeping them full with eight rounds should nominally be legal, however in that split second between the time they’re inserted into the magazine but before the bolt closes, stripping off the top round, the magazine is holding eight rounds. Therefore a good challenge will ask a court to determine if the law unconstitutionally vague because it doesn’t state whether magazine capacity is measured with the bolt open or closed.

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

Well, that’s one way of dealing with a legitimate Constitutional question that has plenty of legal precedent, just be insultingly dismissive about it.

I’m sorry, it is hard for me to take a constitutional vagueness issue predicated on a transient state of affairs seriously.

54 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:01:11pm

re: #51 Kragar

It means I need to change the channel, because I could give a rat’s ass what Lance Armstrong has to say.

The Fed Ex guy is going to expect me to have an informed opinion.

Anyway, it just ended. I only caught the last part.

55 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:01:39pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

U.S. officials have ruled out putting troops on the ground, except in small numbers and only to support the French.

Eerily, when I read that statement, the first thing to pop into my mind?

Vietnam.

56 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:03:03pm

Of course, they’re going to show it again.

57 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:04:09pm

re: #56 wrenchwench

Of course, they’re going to show it again.

He’s a dick. I didn’t watch but I bet that’s the bottom line. Oh and the lawsuits forthcoming.

58 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:05:44pm

re: #55 Ghost of Tom Joad

Eerily, when I read that statement, the first thing to pop into my mind?

Vietnam.

Looking more like Rawanda to me. Much human suffering but little economic interest, best hope someone else pick up the tab. It’s Africa’s curse.

59 Gus  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:06:25pm

Can’t wait for the gun debate to be over with or at least until we get past a good point with new laws.

60 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:07:54pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Observations on the NY SAFE Act of 2013 gun law:

(snip)

The law specifically references “magazines” instead of “ammunition feeding devices.” So belt fed semi autos are exempted, as are revolvers.

(snip)

Um… from the bill

21 23. “Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine, belt,
22 drum, feed strip, or similar device,

61 dragonath  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:08:18pm
62 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:09:16pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Police aren’t exempted.

A flawless illustration of the knee jerk nature of this law. When they do get to exemptions, what will they do for high security installation guards? Will Brinks guards on armored trucks be required to load only 7?

63 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:10:26pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Penal Code is here. I addressed the law enforcement angle earlier today, but I think that it can be fudged until a permanent change to the exemptions in NYP Sec. 265.20 is made. Considering that law enforcement and military are exempted from some of the base firearm provisions, it can be inferred that it was meant to be exempted from other firearms provisions (and there’s room to construe that exemption broadly). It’s a defect, but one that can be amended and overcome.

BTW, I think you’ve got the interpretation of ammunition holding devices is wrong. It still applies as kirk says above.

* 23. “Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine,
belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, that (a) has a capacity of,
or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten
rounds of ammunition, or (b) contains more than seven rounds of
ammunition, or (c) is obtained after the effective date of the chapter
of the laws of two thousand thirteen which amended this subdivision and
has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to
accept, more than seven rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that
such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to
accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire
ammunition or a feeding device that is a curio or relic. A feeding
device that is a curio or relic is defined as a device that (i) was
manufactured at least fifty years prior to the current date, (ii) is
only capable of being used exclusively in a firearm, rifle, or shotgun
that was manufactured at least fifty years prior to the current date,
but not including replicas thereof, (iii) is possessed by an individual
who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm
and (iv) is registered with the division of state police pursuant to
subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter, except such
feeding devices transferred into the state may be registered at any
time, provided they are registered within thirty days of their transfer
into the state. Notwithstanding paragraph (h) of subdivision twenty-two
of this section, such feeding devices may be transferred provided that
such transfer shall be subject to the provisions of section 400.03 of
this chapter including the check required to be conducted pursuant to
such section.
* NB Effective April 15, 2013

64 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:10:34pm

re: #53 EPR-radar

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

I’m sorry, it is hard for me to take a constitutional vagueness issue predicated on a transient state of affairs seriously.

Why? The consequences to the citizen facing a criminal record based on the reality are just as tangible.

How about we move on to the issue of the State making criminal continuing to possess an item that was not only legal to own at the time of purchase but was then specifically grandfathered under previous law. Even under Prohibition there was no ban on prior possession, only production, distribution and sale. That’s why the rich weren’t inconvenienced much, they had plenty of time to stock up.

65 prairiefire  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:13:00pm

Many nations in Africa are enjoying an expansion of the middle class at the mo-mo. I give credit to Bush for sending so much money to help stem the tide of AIDS in Africa.

66 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:14:18pm

And for what it’s worth, the provisions are effective April 15, which means that the legislature can remedy the defect, and there are already indications they’re going to do just that - amendments on the exemptions provisions, and even on the privacy provisions to address the type of maps produced by lohud.com that identified the locations of lawful gun owners.

67 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:16:46pm

re: #65 prairiefire

Chinese companies, and the national government, has poured billions of dollars into southern Africa in exchange for huge mining concessions. In the mean time, they’ve built roads, rail roads, factories, power plants, etc. This has led to widespread ecological problems, and also increased the urbanization process in these nations.

You don’t see much on US television about this, but the past few years there’s been several UK based documentaries covering this phenomenon.

68 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:18:16pm

re: #63 lawhawk

One more big shooting and they will pass a 1 round capacity limit.
//

MADD wanted a zero tolerance and tried for a .04 BAC as I recall. A sip of wine go to jail.

69 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:18:24pm

re: #56 wrenchwench

Of course, they’re going to show it again.

And again, and again and again!

70 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:20:05pm

re: #64 goddamnedfrank

Why? The consequences to the citizen facing a criminal record based on the reality are just as tangible.

How about we move on to the issue of the State making criminal continuing to possess an item that was not only legal to own at the time of purchase but was then specifically grandfathered under previous law. Even under Prohibition there was no ban on prior possession, only production, distribution and sale. That’s why the rich weren’t inconvenienced much, they had plenty of time to stock up.

Your original post does not appear to reference any ban on prior possession, so I have no comment there.

The identified constitutional issue remains ridiculous in my view —- it can be cleaned up by further legislation if necessary. Note that the only judicial remedy for unconstitutionality is to throw the law out in its entirety, which is why I’m pushing back. Banging on the “unconstitutional” drums here is, in this context, an argument for doing nothing.

All language has some elements of vagueness to it. For example, stepping out into the street to enter a parked car could be construed as attempted jaywalking by a loon. Trying to draft language to prevent that level of twisted reading is tilting at windmills.

71 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:21:25pm

re: #63 lawhawk

BTW, I think you’ve got the interpretation of ammunition holding devices is wrong. It still applies as kirk says above.

* 23. “Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine,
belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, that (a) has a capacity of,
or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten
rounds of ammunition, or (b) contains more than seven rounds of
ammunition, or (c) is obtained after the effective date of the chapter
of the laws of two thousand thirteen which amended this subdivision and
has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to
accept, more than seven rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that
such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to
accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire
ammunition or a feeding device that is a curio or relic.

Okay, still doesn’t obviously cover revolvers unless the catch all “similar devices” is applied by a court. The good news is that Garands are classified as Curio and Relic so en bloc clips should be safe. So should M1917’s, fifty year old plus 1911 pistols, Broomhandle Mausers and Johnson 1941 rifles.

72 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:23:47pm

re: #70 EPR-radar

Trying to draft language to prevent that level of twisted reading is tilting at windmills.

You seem to dismiss the notion of aggressive prosecutors that seek election to higher office based on convictions can and do in fact take legal language and run right off the edge of sensibility all too often.

73 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:24:26pm

re: #70 EPR-radar

Your original post does not appear to reference any ban on prior possession, so I have no comment there.

My first post doesn’t limit what issues can be brought up. The law references it. I take it that you’re either fundamentally incapable of or simply unwilling to address this issue.

74 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:25:18pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

This is exactly why I, a somewhat “lapsed” gun owner, have a hard time supporting what passes for gun control legislation. It seems to always focus on the guns themselves, on what sort of doo-dads you can attach to them, on how many rounds they can hold at once, etc., frequently devolving into nonsense like you’re pointing out.

And honestly, I think that the NRA, et al is actually OK with that kind of legislation, because it is truly meaningless. What they absolutely can’t abide, and which I support, are things like registration of ownership, registration of dealer inventory, prohibition of transfer of ownership except through a FFL holder, background check for all sales, and the like. My concealed carry license expired years ago, but I think it’s entirely too easy to get a concealed carry license. I believe in “shall-issue” over “may-issue”, but I think the requirements in nearly all states are far too lax. I think it should be something more akin to getting a pilot’s license.

And of course, I might be wrong on all points. But I’m pretty confident that, things being what they are, there isn’t a simple solution.

75 bratwurst  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:28:15pm

re: #68 Political Atheist

One more big shooting and they will pass a 1 round capacity limit.
//

MADD wanted a zero tolerance and tried for a .04 BAC as I recall.

MADD has issues as an organization…but I don’t think anyone can deny that government regulation has played a big role in reducing the number of alcohol-related road fatalities in this country.

As you can see, pretty much every single country in mainland Europe has a legal limit below our .08:

[Link: upload.wikimedia.org…]

Care to wager the impact of that on drunk driving fatalities?

76 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:29:02pm

re: #57 Stan the Demanded Plan

He’s a dick. I didn’t watch but I bet that’s the bottom line. Oh and the lawsuits forthcoming.

Yeah, he’s a dick. He’s still not very sorry. He wishes he didn’t try for the comeback, because he might not have gotten caught.

77 ProBosniaLiberal  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:29:33pm

re: #50 freetoken

I do need to make the point that France is mangling Ansar Dine and Al-Qaeda of the Islamic Maghreb with all of 2,500 troops.

Are you really telling me we could cough off that kind of force. That is tiny. It also does reveal the basic nature of these fanatics. In essence, they are the nutcases we mock as the 101st Chairbourne, who actually get off their ass.

They are only a problem when in numbers.

78 Shvaughn  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:29:42pm

re: #68 Political Atheist

MADD wanted a zero tolerance and tried for a .04 BAC as I recall. A sip of wine go to jail.

I think anyone having alcohol before driving is a danger to all of us.

79 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:30:27pm

re: #73 goddamnedfrank

Of course not, but I can’t respond on-point unless I know what you have in mind. So far, I’ve seen that present owners of banned guns can keep them, but registration is required.

That doesn’t seem like much, so the real issue must be something else.

80 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:31:24pm

Why, of course:

J.J. Abrams to produce Lance Armstrong biopic

81 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:31:41pm

Whoops, the link:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

82 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:32:40pm

Next up, the Armstrong reality TV show: Cycling (Steroids) With The Stars.

83 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:32:48pm

re: #74 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I pretty much agree with your points here, but the choices that seem to be getting served up are flawed NY style gun control, and doing nothing at all.

Forced to choose between these two options, I will support the flawed gun control.

84 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:34:34pm

re: #72 Political Atheist

You seem to dismiss the notion of aggressive prosecutors that seek election to higher office based on convictions can and do in fact take legal language and run right off the edge of sensibility all too often.

This. Prosecutors are trial lawyers, and some of them will bend laws into a pretzel to get a conviction. Many LGF links and links have testified to that fact. If the law can’t be written specifically, then whether to pass it at all is a question to be raised.

85 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:35:03pm

re: #70 EPR-radar

Banging on the “unconstitutional” drums here is, in this context, an argument for doing nothing.

No, it’s not. It’s simply an argument for honoring the Constitution and our country’s shared legal history. Your attempts to reframe that as advocating passivity is sniveling dishonesty.

The real problem with the NY law is that it does NOTHING to get the worst kinds of guns off the streets, the ones responsible for the vast majority of firearms crime, ultra compact pistols. These guns hold less than seven rounds and are incredibly easy to conceal. Defining them by size is easy, if the NY government had done that I’d be the first to applaud.

86 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:35:20pm

re: #80 freetoken

Why, of course:

J.J. Abrams to produce Lance Armstrong biopic

The smoke monster gave him EPO.

Eko - EPO. Makes perfect sense.

87 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:36:24pm

re: #75 bratwurst
re: #78 Shvaughn

The point is how advocacy groups have a way of taking it too far. In the pursuit of less driving fatalities, should a legal level of alcohol in the blood that is less than what interferes with driving skills be tolerated? I say not. The slightest reduction in driving skills can come from a night of less sleep. A bad day at work. A speck of dust in an eye.

88 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:36:43pm

re: #80 freetoken

Why, of course:

J.J. Abrams to produce Lance Armstrong biopic

At the end, we find out he and everyone else in the movie actually died on the island, and all the scenes to the contrary were either life-flashing-before-my-eyes flashbacks, or out-of-body experiences, or some semblence of an afterlife?

89 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:37:05pm
90 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:37:07pm

re: #85 goddamnedfrank

No, it’s not. It’s simply an argument for honoring the Constitution and our country’s shared legal history. Your attempts to reframe that as advocating passivity is sniveling dishonesty.

The real problem with the NY law is that it does NOTHING to get the worst kinds of guns off the streets, the ones responsible for the vast majority of firearms crime, ultra compact pistols. These guns hold less than seven rounds and are incredibly easy to conceal. Defining them by size is easy, if the NY government had done that I’d be the first to applaud.

THIS

91 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:37:35pm

re: #77 ProBosniaLiberal

I do need to make the point that France is mangling Ansar Dine and Al-Qaeda of the Islamic Maghreb with all of 2,500 troops.

Are you really telling me we could cough off that kind of force. That is tiny. It also does reveal the basic nature of these fanatics. In essence, they are the nutcases we mock as the 101st Chairbourne, who actually get off their ass.

They are only a problem when in numbers.

The thing is that America is tired, PLL, and doesn’t want to be involved in another COIN mission. From the perspective of both parties, Mali is an issue that will win little credit and which will alienate the party supported.

92 Kragar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:37:45pm

re: #88 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

At the end, we find out he and everyone else in the movie actually died on the island, and all the scenes to the contrary were either life-flashing-before-my-eyes flashbacks, or out-of-body experiences, or some semblence of an afterlife?

Suddenly… LENS FLARE!

93 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:37:59pm

I wonder if DWTS producers will approach Armstrong, with a strong pitch that this will be a chance for him to redeem himself in front of millions?

94 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:38:09pm

You know what kind of semi automatic firearms have pistol grips? Pistols.

What makes a rifle with a pistol grip an assault weapon when a pistol is far, far easier to conceal?

95 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:38:31pm

And, DWTS is not subject to USADA.

96 ProBosniaLiberal  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:39:29pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

At least give Air Support then. Along with Drone attacks on leaders, such as Iyad Ag Ghaly.

97 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:40:32pm

re: #88 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

At the end, we find out he and everyone else in the movie actually died on the island, and all the scenes to the contrary were either life-flashing-before-my-eyes flashbacks, or out-of-body experiences, or some semblence of an afterlife?

Either that, or it turns out Lance was really injecting himself with Cortexiphan.

98 sagehen  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:41:24pm

re: #93 freetoken

I wonder if DWTS producers will approach Armstrong, with a strong pitch that this will be a chance for him to redeem himself in front of millions?

Plus, it pays really well. (at least, that was Penn’s answer when Lawrence O’Donnell asked him what possible reason Tom Delay could have had for doing the show…)

99 Kragar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:42:29pm

The Lance Armstrong Bio pic should have been given to Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

100 sagehen  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:43:10pm

re: #97 BongCrodny

Either that, or it turns out Lance was really injecting himself with Cortexiphan.

((if you watched tonight’s finale… NO SPOILERS!! I haven’t watched yet))

101 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:43:17pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Well, there’s also the fact that as far as Mali is concerned, the US is statutorily prohibited from military support against the Islamists.

102 Shvaughn  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:43:56pm

re: #87 Political Atheist

re: #78 Shvaughn

The point is how advocacy groups have a way of taking it too far. In the pursuit of less driving fatalities, should a legal level of alcohol in the blood that is less than what interferes with driving skills be tolerated? I say not. The slightest reduction in driving skills can come from a night of less sleep. A bad day at work. A speck of dust in an eye.

Except they’re not taking it too far.

Especially since BAC is often measured only after the fact, i.e., once someone has been on the road (in the case of a traffic stop or DUI checkpoint) or has been in an accident.

There is no time at which driving immediately after drinking is going to be safe. MADD is right in pushing for lower limits than the 0.8 we currently have in the U.S. (As noted before, the allowable BAC varies by country; in Israel, for example, there’s zero tolerance.)

103 ProBosniaLiberal  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:44:03pm

re: #101 lawhawk

Now, that comment puzzles me.

Why?

104 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:44:15pm

re: #100 sagehen

((if you watched tonight’s finale… NO SPOILERS!! I haven’t watched yet))

The only thing I’ll spoil is that I thought it was a pretty good series finale. :-)

105 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:44:54pm

The Simpsons movie had it wrong all along. Grandpa wasn’t saying EPA, he was saying EPO… EPO….

106 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:45:44pm

re: #99 Kragar

The Lance Armstrong Bio pic should have been given to Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

It probably will be. South Park season 17 begins sometime around March.

107 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:47:01pm

re: #104 BongCrodny

The only thing I’ll spoil is that I thought it was a pretty good series finale. :-)

wait, what series? I thought we were talking about “LOST”, which ended years ago.

108 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:47:15pm

re: #103 ProBosniaLiberal

Why:

The U.S. military cannot intervene directly in Mali to help their military defeat the terrorists, Brennan reports. U.S. law prohibits Americans from aiding a military junta that has overthrown a democratically elected one. The current Malian government came to power via a coup back in March.

109 sagehen  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:47:43pm

re: #107 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

wait, what series? I thought we were talking about “LOST”, which ended years ago.

“Cortexiphan” was a Fringe reference.

110 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:48:04pm

re: #107 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

wait, what series? I thought we were talking about “LOST”, which ended years ago.

Fringe, also a J.J. Abrams-produced series.

111 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:48:25pm

re: #92 Kragar

Lance will be taking HGH and EPO via Slushos.

112 ProBosniaLiberal  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:48:52pm

re: #108 lawhawk

Okay then, add one more Drone Strike to the list:

That fucker who did the coup last year. For putting his nation through hell, he should get the Death Penalty.

113 BongCrodny  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:50:12pm

re: #109 sagehen

“Cortexiphan” was a Fringe reference.

In the parallel universe, Lance Armstrong is a bike messenger.

114 bratwurst  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:52:00pm

re: #87 Political Atheist

re: #78 Shvaughn

The point is how advocacy groups have a way of taking it too far. In the pursuit of less driving fatalities, should a legal level of alcohol in the blood that is less than what interferes with driving skills be tolerated? I say not. The slightest reduction in driving skills can come from a night of less sleep. A bad day at work. A speck of dust in an eye.

I am sure you are aware of physiology and how a blood alcohol level that wouldn’t interfere with your ability to drive could easily cause someone smaller or younger to be a serious danger on the road. However, I do agree in principle that advocacy groups do have a way of going to extremes.

Can you also agree in principle that government regulation ultimately had a role in a measurable advance in public safety in this case? The number of alcohol related road fatalities dropped by more than 50% between 1982 and 2009…and there were MILLIONS more cars on the road in 2009.

115 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:53:57pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

You know what kind of semi automatic firearms have pistol grips? Pistols.

What makes a rifle with a pistol grip an assault weapon when a pistol is far, far easier to conceal?

Did you really make this argument? seriously? This non-sequitor?

116 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:54:22pm

re: #85 goddamnedfrank

No, it’s not. It’s simply an argument for honoring the Constitution and our country’s shared legal history. Your attempts to reframe that as advocating passivity is sniveling dishonesty.

The real problem with the NY law is that it does NOTHING to get the worst kinds of guns off the streets, the ones responsible for the vast majority of firearms crime, ultra compact pistols. These guns hold less than seven rounds and are incredibly easy to conceal. Defining them by size is easy, if the NY government had done that I’d be the first to applaud.

Banning the Saturday Night Special is an idea that has been around for at least 40 years. Any kind of ban here is going to run into the exact same issues we’ve seen with assault weapon bans (vagueness, ban on prior ownership etc.).

So it’s not like the issues you raise with the new NY laws could really be changed by altering the guns that are affected.

118 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:58:28pm

re: #117 Kragar

The Master of all Masters of the RW noise machine has spoken. All bow before the wisdom of the transcendent Rush the Hutt.

Julius Caesar probably used kids as political props. Everyone does it, so it is a non-issue.

119 bratwurst  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:58:47pm

This NRA’s fantasy of making schools safer by putting guns into them is…uh…not off to a great start:

Security guard leaves gun unattended in restroom at charter school

120 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 7:59:14pm

Books are scary things:

Brazil judge orders ‘50 Shades of Grey’ sealed in bookstores

A Brazilian judge has ordered bookstores to wrap and seal copies of “Fifty Shades of Grey” after seeing children reading it in stores.

121 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:02:46pm

Why the “assault weapon” bit, anyway? I don’t know, but I’ve got some opinions.

First, from law enforcement - who last time was solidly behind this. They knew what they meant by assault weapon: weapons that were designed to work in close quarters but had good range, use high penetration loads in high capacity magazines. They were worried about gangs, especially gun running gangs, that could stand up to the SWAT teams in equal gun combat.

Second, from political perception. Assault weapons are “obviously” derived from military weapons. Unlike defense and hunting and sport (marksmanship) their original design was for killing people. When your impetus is highly visible killings, often with one of these, it becomes a fairly obvious symbol for the restriction.

122 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:05:50pm

re: #114 bratwurst

I am sure you are aware of physiology and how a blood alcohol level that wouldn’t interfere with your ability to drive could easily cause someone smaller or younger to be a serious danger on the road. However, I do agree in principle that advocacy groups do have a way of going to extremes.

Can you also agree in principle that government regulation ultimately had a role in a measurable advance in public safety in this case? The number of alcohol related road fatalities dropped by more than 50% between 1982 and 2009…and there were MILLIONS more cars on the road in 2009.

We do agree. The DUI limit saves lives all day long and all night. Thanks for the nod to what advocacy groups wind up doing. Don’t ya really hate that from your side of an issue? Sorry I diverge.

I have not researched what % (which by nature hopefully reduces individual variations) is the sweet spot. What I want is a limit that well represents the beginning of impairment in excess of trivial / slight impairment. The steady drop in the fatality rate tells me we are about right as is. Underage drivers of course should have the zero tolerance as it’s illegal for them to drink. But the rest of us? Zero? It would take some persuasion to get me there. .06? Maybe. .04? Show me.

123 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:07:55pm

re: #121 kirkspencer

Why the “assault weapon” bit, anyway? I don’t know, but I’ve got some opinions.

First, from law enforcement - who last time was solidly behind this. They knew what they meant by assault weapon: weapons that were designed to work in close quarters but had good range, use high penetration loads in high capacity magazines. They were worried about gangs, especially gun running gangs, that could stand up to the SWAT teams in equal gun combat.

Second, from political perception. Assault weapons are “obviously” derived from military weapons. Unlike defense and hunting and sport (marksmanship) their original design was for killing people. When your impetus is highly visible killings, often with one of these, it becomes a fairly obvious symbol for the restriction.

Agreed. I just don’t get the problem with an assault weapon ban, provided that assault weapons are defined by the function they are designed to perform (killing lots of people quickly).

For some reason, AWBs as enacted tend to focus less on function and more on appearance, which is a problem. NRA moles in the pro-control side deliberately screwing it up, or clueless gun control advocates?

124 jaunte  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:09:04pm

Good evening #evolution fucks honcos.

125 jaunte  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:09:59pm
126 Kragar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:10:54pm
127 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:12:17pm

re: #126 Kragar

House science committee:

Derp. Herp-a-derp. Derpity-do-dah.

Truly a body with 20 bellies and no brain.

128 Targetpractice  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:14:09pm

re: #125 jaunte

[Embedded content]

But warming stopped 15 years ago! And we’re in the middle of a cooling cycle! And NASA cooked its data! And…and…BENGAZI!

129 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:14:24pm

In which WND shills for the League of the South:

SECESSION MOVEMENT JUST NEEDS ‘MORE OXYGEN’

130 jaunte  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:15:18pm

Sunspots.

131 jaunte  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:16:20pm

Tonight’s neo-nazi superman militia poster boy:

Feds investigate how suspected white supremacist — a felon — obtained arsenal

“…Schmidt was charged with murder and felonious assault in 1989 after killing a Hispanic man and shooting two others with a semi-automatic pistol during a traffic dispute. He later pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and was sentenced to 10 to 25 years in prison. Federal officials were not immediately able to provide information on when he was released from prison.

Despite a federal law that prohibits convicted felons from buying firearms, Schmidt was still able to acquire his stockpile – though authorities don’t yet know how he acquired them.”

132 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:18:04pm

re: #123 EPR-radar

For some reason, AWBs as enacted tend to focus less on function and more on appearance, which is a problem. NRA moles in the pro-control side deliberately screwing it up, or clueless gun control advocates?

I think it unlikely the NRA had much influence here in CA. Said based on our very long term Dem majority in state houses. We kept the 10 round limit and assault rifles have a “tool required” factor for swapping in a loaded magazine. There are strange specific “safety” *cough* *bu&^%$t* requirements of gun makers to sell each specific model here.

133 freetoken  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:18:10pm

An interviewee corrects the Telegraph on their misleading headline:

134 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:18:35pm

re: #112 ProBosniaLiberal

Okay then, add one more Drone Strike to the list:

That fucker who did the coup last year. For putting his nation through hell, he should get the Death Penalty.

Not possible, since most of the troops remaining in Mali’s army agree with the coup. They don’t want to fight, they want Western nations to fight their battle for them, pay their salaries and let them pillage our foreign aid.

In other words, it’s a Class-A Clusterfuck.

135 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:18:39pm

re: #123 EPR-radar

Agreed. I just don’t get the problem with an assault weapon ban, provided that assault weapons are defined by the function they are designed to perform (killing lots of people quickly).

For some reason, AWBs as enacted tend to focus less on function and more on appearance, which is a problem. NRA moles in the pro-control side deliberately screwing it up, or clueless gun control advocates?

No, I think you are missing the point that the court needs some sort of clear measure to say “this is” and “this is not.”

make a list of 25 to 50 weapons you would consider assault weapons, and another 25 to 50 that are not. Now look for common characteristics of the first group that are not among the latter.

Turns out the AWB list works pretty good.

136 jaunte  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:20:55pm

Challengers from the Sidelines: Understanding America’s Violent Far-Right

“…Through a comprehensive look at the data, this study addresses three core questions:
(1) What are the main current characteristics of the violence produced by the far right?
(2) What type of far-right groups are more prone than others to engage in violence? How are characteristics of particular far-right groups correlated with their tendency to engage in violence?
(3) What are the social and political factors associated with the level of far-right violence? Are there political or social conditions that foster or discourage violence?”

137 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:21:01pm

re: #132 Political Atheist

I think it unlikely the NRA had much influence here in CA. Based on our very long term Dem majority in state houses. We kept the 10 round limit and assault rifles have a “tool required” factor for swapping in a loaded magazine. There are strange specific “safety” *cough* *bu&^%$t* requirements of gun makers to sell each specific model here.

The NRA thing was tongue in cheek. Is it possible to come up with a definition of an “assault weapon” that both sides can agree on?

138 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:22:53pm

re: #135 kirkspencer

No, I think you are missing the point that the court needs some sort of clear measure to say “this is” and “this is not.”

make a list of 25 to 50 weapons you would consider assault weapons, and another 25 to 50 that are not. Now look for common characteristics of the first group that are not among the latter.

Turns out the AWB list works pretty good.

I thought the AWB feature lists tended to include things like “black color” which pretty clearly have more to do with image than lethality.

Certainly, fussing about the definition of an AW is a common point of criticism for AWBs.

139 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:23:36pm

re: #137 EPR-radar

The NRA thing was tongue in cheek. Is it possible to come up with a definition of an “assault weapon” that both sides can agree on?

No. Because the NRA does not want any weapons banned.

140 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:25:52pm

re: #136 jaunte

I still remember the RW freakout when the Homeland Security report of US domestic RW extremism leaked a few years ago. The RW apologists were particularly bothered by the fact that this report had been compiled in the Bush years.

141 jaunte  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:26:15pm

A real problem with all the insanity spewing from far right talking heads:

“Findings indicate that contentious and conservative political environments as well as the political empowerment are positively associated with the volume of violence; thus, it is not only feelings of deprivation that motivate those involved in far right violence, but also the sense of empowerment that emerges when the political system is perceived to be increasingly permissive to far right ideas. These trends contradict predominant perceptions which associate motivational forces that facilitate political violence with the unbalanced allocation of goods, and provide support for explanations which focus on correlations between violence and perceived changes in the sociopolitical structure.”
— Arie Perliger
[Link: www.ctc.usma.edu…]

142 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:26:55pm

re: #137 EPR-radar

The NRA thing was tongue in cheek. Is it possible to come up with a definition of an “assault weapon” that both sides can agree on?

Oh sorry.
Probably not.
I would opine that we just take it to sets of specific configurations.
The big things are the caliber/kinetics, speed of reloading and magazine capacity. We would be far better served by ditching that “A” word from the discussion. Example-Color is irrelevant. Pistol grip is far less important than caliber. Bayonet mount is laughably irrelevant. Restricting the flash guard might have merit.

143 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:27:54pm

re: #141 jaunte

A real problem with all the insanity spewing from far right talking heads:

Important point. See, e.g., the effect of a right wing judiciary in Weimar Germany.

144 Shvaughn  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:31:46pm

re: #112 ProBosniaLiberal

Okay then, add one more Drone Strike to the list:

That fucker who did the coup last year. For putting his nation through hell, he should get the Death Penalty.

You know, we really shouldn’t have the US flying around assassinating random people, bad guys or otherwise.

145 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:32:34pm

re: #144 Shvaughn

You know, we really shouldn’t have the US flying around assassinating random people, bad guys or otherwise.

Random people?

146 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:33:03pm

re: #142 Political Atheist

Oh sorry.
Probably not.
I would opine that we just take it to sets of specific configurations.
The big things are the caliber/kinetics, speed of reloading and magazine capacity. We would be far better served by ditching that “A” word from the discussion. Example-Color is irrelevant. Pistol grip is far less important than caliber. Bayonet mount is laughably irrelevant. Restricting the flash guard might have merit.

Well, if both sides could agree to a definition of “military grade weapon”, and agree to stricter controls relating to military grade weapons, some progress might actually be possible.

147 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:34:15pm

re: #138 EPR-radar

I thought the AWB feature lists tended to include things like “black color” which pretty clearly have more to do with image than lethality.

Certainly, fussing about the definition of an AW is a common point of criticism for AWBs.

Wait, you’re arguing about this without even knowing what it says or said?

sigh. OK.

An assault weapon (1994-2004 law) could be rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

An assault rifle was a semi-auto rifle able to accept detachable magazines AND two or more of the following:
) folding or telescoping stock;
) pistol grip;
) bayonet mount;
) flash suppressor or threaded barrel capable of accepting one;
) grenade launcher.

A pistol was an assault weapon if it was a semi-auto that used a detachable magazine AND two or more of the following:
) magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip;
) threaded barrel that could accept barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or noise suppressor aka silencer;
) barrel shroud capable of being used as handhold;
) unloaded weight in excess of 50 oz (1.4 kg);
) semi-auto version of fully auto firearm.

A shotgun was an assault weapon if it was a semi-auto with two or more of the following:
) folding or telescoping stock;
) pistol grip;
) fixed magazine capacity of 5 or more rounds;
) detachable magazine.

148 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:36:32pm

re: #147 kirkspencer

Thanks for the info. “Black color” was an unverified RW talking point.

149 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:38:09pm

re: #145 Political Atheist

Random people?

People put on a kill list by agencies of the US government without any non-Executive review is a bit more accurate.

150 Shvaughn  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:38:12pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Not possible, since most of the troops remaining in Mali’s army agree with the coup. They don’t want to fight, they want Western nations to fight their battle for them, pay their salaries and let them pillage our foreign aid.

Well…

As a result of the March 2012 coup in Mali, the U.S. Government formally terminated assistance to the Government of Mali. Funding for programs that provide life-saving, critical assistance in health and food security, as well as democratic elections support programming, is reviewed on a case-by-case basis. These decisions will be affected by the current political and security situation in Mali and how it develops, with recognition that these are complex challenges. The ability of the United States to resume full assistance will depend on a democratically elected government taking office. Programs that have resumed include activities to reduce child mortality, HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment, essential life-saving services for maternal and child health, and preparation for the planting season to ensure food security.

The Mali army’s salaries aren’t being paid for by the U.S. and we aren’t sending them anything except critical humanitarian aid.

151 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:39:34pm

re: #150 Shvaughn

The Mali army’s salaries aren’t being paid for by the U.S. and we aren’t sending them anything except critical humanitarian aid.

I said what they want, not what we are doing.

152 Shvaughn  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:39:39pm

re: #145 Political Atheist

Random people?

The U.S. isn’t the world’s policeman, let alone the world’s judge, jury, and executioner.

What would blowing up one guy accomplish apart from sending us to war with Mali anyway?

153 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:42:24pm

re: #146 EPR-radar

Well, if both sides could agree to a definition of “military grade weapon”, and agree to stricter controls relating to military grade weapons, some progress might actually be possible.

We did that. In 1934.

Nothing that I can go down to the local gun shop and buy is any different than what I could have bought in 1950 except for cosmetics. Those cosmetics make no difference as to leathality of the firearm. There is no real difference between an AR-15 and an M1 Carbine except that generations of WWII movies have taught us that the Carbine is a “good guy” weapon.

What does matter is a combination of the cartridge used along with the size of the “ammunition holding device”.

If people want to make a dent in gun crimes they need to forget about the looks and concentrate on the things that matter. Caliber. Quantity of rounds. Size.

That was what I said to the VP anyway.

154 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:42:46pm

re: #142 Political Atheist

Oh sorry.
Probably not.
I would opine that we just take it to sets of specific configurations.
The big things are the caliber/kinetics, speed of reloading and magazine capacity. We would be far better served by ditching that “A” word from the discussion. Example-Color is irrelevant. Pistol grip is far less important than caliber. Bayonet mount is laughably irrelevant. Restricting the flash guard might have merit.

Disagree. An example of the problem is that the undesirable weapons come in a range of calibers. Color isn’t in there anywhere.

Pistol grip. Combat weapons have pistol grips to allow off-hand shooting while doing other things (like talking on radios or dragging loads and so forth). Yes the accuracy drops nastily but bullets flying equals suppression, and if the other guy keeps his head down while you’re moving you win.

Bayonet mount. There is no reason for a bayonet lug on a civilian weapon. Yet you’d be surprised how many quasi-military weapons have them. It turns out to be an effective qualifier for what most people would consider wannabe or actual combat weapons.

Flash guard. Flash guards are meant to hide the flash when you’re shooting so you won’t be detected - by other shooters. It doesn’t help you the shooter. It doesn’t increase safety. It doesn’t make you less visible to animals you’re hunting. It’s solely for the benefit of combat.

155 Shvaughn  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:45:49pm

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

I said what they want, not what we are doing.

Fair enough.

156 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:47:04pm

re: #153 William Barnett-Lewis

We did that. In 1934.

Nothing that I can go down to the local gun shop and buy is any different than what I could have bought in 1950 except for cosmetics. Those cosmetics make no difference as to lethality of the firearm. There is no real difference between an AR-15 and an M1 Carbine except that generations of WWII movies have taught us that the Carbine is a “good guy” weapon.

What does matter is a combination of the cartridge used along with the size of the “ammunition holding device”.

If people want to make a dent in gun crimes they need to forget about the looks and concentrate on the things that matter. Caliber. Quantity of rounds. Size.

That was what I said to the VP anyway.

I must respectfully disagree on the bolded portion. The AR-15is a far more adaptable and versatile platform than the M1 carbine. Short barrel rifles are a felony unless registered, it is true, but it is also a fact that an AR can take barrels short enough to hide the gun under a winter coat, whereas the M1 cannot accept different barrel lengths without major modification. Nor can the carbine accept adaptation to fire many different calibers, which the AR-15 certainly can. .45 ACP from an M1 Carbine? No way! From an AR-15? Yes, way.

157 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:48:49pm

re: #152 Shvaughn

The U.S. isn’t the world’s policeman, let alone the world’s judge, jury, and executioner.

What would blowing up one guy accomplish apart from sending us to war with Mali anyway?

Actually, if we send a drone or two into Mali, we won’t end up at war with Mali unless the government there is tired of being in charge. That’s an important point. It is easy to forget that these foreign drone strikes are acts of war unless we have the blessing of the governments involved (which I suspect we often don’t).

158 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:54:52pm

re: #154 kirkspencer

Just in defense of what I posted-I’m addressing the debate and the law. So I did mention the black gun meme. When I look at configuration, and how guns are used in crimes, pistol grip and bayonet mount have little actual impact. When did a bad guy use a bayonet on a rifle in a crime? The standard might not be if we need it. It might be what level of criminal threat is has posed.

Caliber/K.E. and rate of fire are surely the big factors. All else is detail and often, distraction. We do not need to take ten shot .22 rimfire semi auto rifles or pistols as some big threat like a semi auto 12 gauge or AK.

On this “need” thing. We have a huge range of things available to us for sport, commercial use and home use that are far beyond “need” We don’t need cars that can go 80 mph. That’s not our standard for even the most dangerous object like aircraft or power tools.

159 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:56:36pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

I must respectfully disagree on the bolded portion. The AR-15is a far more adaptable and versatile platform than the M1 carbine. Short barrel rifles are a felony unless registered, it is true, but it is also a fact that an AR can take barrels short enough to hide the gun under a winter coat, whereas the M1 cannot accept different barrel lengths without major modification. Nor can the carbine accept adaptation to fire many different calibers, which the AR-15 certainly can. .45 ACP from an M1 Carbine? No way! From an AR-15? Yes, way.

DF, from the perspective of both being small lightweight firearms that were designed to fill similar niches, I would say there is little difference. Both can be made in full auto versions and both can have similar sized magazine capacities. The AR is more flexible in it’s configuration but the majority of those bits fall under what I was refering to as cosmetic.

Both still remain similar sized rifles with one that looks bad to modern folks and one that does not - but only because of how they look not because of any qualitative difference in the two firearms.

I firmly believe that modifying the NFA is a far better way of controlling the abuse of these firearms than an AWB based on cosmetics.

160 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 8:59:34pm

re: #154 kirkspencer

Pistol grip. Combat weapons have pistol grips to allow off-hand shooting while doing other things (like talking on radios or dragging loads and so forth). Yes the accuracy drops nastily but bullets flying equals suppression, and if the other guy keeps his head down while you’re moving you win.

Which says nothing about effectiveness or applicability towards killing people illegally. Spree shooters aren’t famous for multitasking, communicating via radio or dragging comrades to safety.

Bayonet mount. There is no reason for a bayonet lug on a civilian weapon. Yet you’d be surprised how many quasi-military weapons have them. It turns out to be an effective qualifier for what most people would consider wannabe or actual combat weapons.

Which says nothing about effectiveness in killing people. The US government sold millions of bayonet lug equipped surplus rifles to civilians through the NRA and government set up CMP programs. When’s the last time a mounted bayonet was used to murder anybody?

Flash guard. Flash guards are meant to hide the flash when you’re shooting so you won’t be detected - by other shooters. It doesn’t help you the shooter. It doesn’t increase safety. It doesn’t make you less visible to animals you’re hunting. It’s solely for the benefit of combat.

You have this exactly backwards. A flash suppressor directs the flash away from the shooters eyes, preserving night vision. It’s virtually impossible to eliminate a muzzle flash from being visible down range.

161 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:02:38pm

re: #159 William Barnett-Lewis

DF, from the perspective of both being small lightweight firearms that were designed to fill similar niches, I would say there is little difference. Both can be made in full auto versions and both can have similar sized magazine capacities. The AR is more flexible in it’s configuration but the majority of those bits fall under what I was refering to as cosmetic.

Both still remain similar sized rifles with one that looks bad to modern folks and one that does not - but only because of how they look not because of any qualitative difference in the two firearms.

I firmly believe that modifying the NFA is a far better way of controlling the abuse of these firearms than an AWB based on cosmetics.

And I concur with that belief.

162 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:03:14pm

re: #154 kirkspencer

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

re: #158 Political Atheist

re: #159 William Barnett-Lewis

re: #160 goddamnedfrank

I’m shutting up and learning now. BBL.

163 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:05:53pm

re: #153 William Barnett-Lewis

Nothing that I can go down to the local gun shop and buy is any different than what I could have bought in 1950 except for cosmetics.

From a manufacturing engineering perspective, that’s kind of hard to imagine. Over 62 years, the materials, machining processes, and industrial controls have not improved the finished product at all? Same rate of fire, accuracy, interchangeability, cooling, magazine capacity.. no difference except for the looks?

164 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:10:45pm

re: #115 kirkspencer

Did you really make this argument? seriously? This non-sequitor?

Bringing up the guns used in the vast majority of firearms crime, the type actually used to kill the most people are a non sequitor now? Did you really post this bitchy little non-thought, really?

165 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:11:27pm

re: #163 Mich-again

From a manufacturing engineering perspective, that’s kind of hard to imagine. Over 62 years, the materials, machining processes, and industrial controls have not improved the finished product at all? Same rate of fire, accuracy, interchangeability, cooling, magazine capacity.. no difference except for the looks?

Yes.

Change happens slowly in firearms design. The last major new design was Gaston Glock’s pistol and the only really important new thing there was his marketing. Every design bit - the barrel locking method, the striker firing system, the polymer frame, high capacity magazines - everything - had appeared in other firearms. He wrapped it up in one nice tidy package and marketed the hell out of it.

166 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:14:17pm

re: #165 William Barnett-Lewis

Yes.

The last major new design was Gaston Glock’s pistol and the only really important new thing there was his marketing. Every design bit - the barrel locking method, the striker firing system, the polymer frame, high capacity magazines - everything - had appeared in other firearms. He wrapped it up in one nice tidy package and marketed the hell out of it.

Mateba Autorevolver.

167 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:14:19pm

re: #160 goddamnedfrank

Which says nothing about effectiveness or applicability towards killing people illegally. Spree shooters aren’t famous for multitasking, communicating via radio or dragging comrades to safety.

Which says nothing about effectiveness in killing people. The US government sold millions of bayonet lug equipped surplus rifles to civilians through the NRA and government set up CMP programs. When’s the last time a mounted bayonet was used to murder anybody?

You have this exactly backwards. A flash suppressor directs the flash away from the shooters eyes, preserving night vision. It’s virtually impossible to eliminate a muzzle flash from being visible down range.

re flash suppressor, you’re right.

re the remainder, you’re missing the point.

There are a group of weapons that are more likely to be used by spree and mass shooters. They tend to be militaristic. There are a group of weapons that are more likely to be selected by gangs and insurrectionists. Again they tend to be militaristic weapons.

There are dozens if not hundreds of small details that make the weapons combat oriented.

All that acknowledged, there are certain characteristics that are typical of these weapons that are NOT typical of weapons primarily intended for hunting or skeet or target shooting. The presence of two or more (with the detachable magazine in the case of rifles and pistols) is almost always present in militaristic weapons. Regardless of actual effectiveness, regardless of whether the druggie or spree shooter or whomever will actually use that aspect, these are defining characteristics of the weapons.

168 ProBosniaLiberal  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:16:37pm

re: #166 goddamnedfrank

Yes, but that is a niche weapon at best.

Don’t really see that causing massive changes in the future.

169 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:17:21pm

re: #167 kirkspencer

re flash suppressor, you’re right.

re the remainder, you’re missing the point.

There are a group of weapons that are more likely to be used by spree and mass shooters. They tend to be militaristic. There are a group of weapons that are more likely to be selected by gangs and insurrectionists. Again they tend to be militaristic weapons.

I get it. You don’t really give a shit about the vast, overwhelming majority of gun crime and firearms murders, just the high profile outliers that make the news. Somehow the idea is that if we target the cosmetic features this might have an effect on the underlying drive towards criminality.

Magical thinking.

170 wilburs  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:17:27pm

After the last few weeks, I’m starting to warm up to the whole FEMA camp idea.

171 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:18:22pm

re: #168 ProBosniaLiberal

Yes, but that is a niche weapon at best.

Don’t really see that causing massive changes in the future.

Togusa disagrees.

172 Kragar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:19:07pm

re: #170 wilburs

After the last few weeks, I’m starting to warm up to the whole FEMA camp idea.

The more they go nuts about Obama coming in and taking their guns, the better they make the idea sound.

173 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:19:31pm

re: #166 goddamnedfrank

Mateba Autorevolver.

Not really new, since it just walks ground Col. Fosbury V.C. already trod.

174 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:20:42pm

re: #166 goddamnedfrank

Mateba Autorevolver.

He was a nut and that firearm sold in the thousands. No one has copied it. Glock has sold multi-millions. Everyone and their cousin is selling a “glock-a-like”. The only thing good I can think of about Emilio Ghisoni is that NERF got the idea for the Maverick from his weird assed designs.

175 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:22:26pm

re: #169 goddamnedfrank

Magical thinking.

Lots of that around here about guns. Hope you get less shit for saying so than I have.

176 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:23:12pm

re: #164 goddamnedfrank

Brining up the guns used in the vast majority of firearms crime, the type actually used to kill the most people are a non sequitor now? Did you really post this bitchy little non-thought, really?

Let’s see what you said, shall we?
re: #94 goddamnedfrank

You know what kind of semi automatic firearms have pistol grips? Pistols.

What makes a rifle with a pistol grip an assault weapon when a pistol is far, far easier to conceal?

hmm. nobody mentioned concealability. And concealability is not an aspect of assault weapons. That makes it a non sequitor. And since the discussion throughout has been assault weapons, it looks like an attempt to derail. So yes, I made that “bitchy little non-thought.” Thank you for playing.

As it happens pistols can be and are assault weapons. They are, as you noted just now, the more frequent killer.

177 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:24:28pm

re: #174 William Barnett-Lewis

He was a nut and that firearm sold in the thousands.

Yes, but its weirdness is what makes it so awesome. I hate Glocks, give me an esoteric design anytime. Excuse me while I go look at COP four barreled derringers.

178 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:31:30pm

re: #167 kirkspencer

Let’s worry more about gang shootings and less about spree killers. The plain fact is that even in you are a white suburbanite, you have a much better chance of being killed by a handgun wielded by some thug for a ‘standard’ criminal purpose than you do to be killed by an ‘active shooter’.


Thus I propose the following: Small semi-auto pistols do have a legitimate self defense application, but they are the most common crime guns, and their power is increasing is increasing). So I would propose that in the future sales of such small handguns be restricted to those possessing either a valid Concealed Carry Permit or a Federal Firearms License (the requirements on even a Type 3 FFL to keep records of all firearms received plus the background check make such a person’s risk level very low).

I linked to an NRA site, because I wanted to link to a good review and description of the Nano, not for any political reason.

179 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:32:24pm

re: #177 goddamnedfrank

Yes, but it’s weirdness is what makes it so awesome. I hate Glocks, give me an esoteric design anytime. Excuse me while I go look at COP four barreled derringers.

Understood. My favorite gun is my S&W 625 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. Not especially concealable :) but N frames aren’t made for that…

180 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:33:15pm

re: #165 William Barnett-Lewis

Yes.

Change happens slowly in firearms design. The last major new design was Gaston Glock’s pistol and the only really important new thing there was his marketing. Every design bit - the barrel locking method, the striker firing system, the polymer frame, high capacity magazines - everything - had appeared in other firearms. He wrapped it up in one nice tidy package and marketed the hell out of it.

I’m skeptical of that reply only because every manufacturing process has improved tremendously since then and there is no reason to think that weapons are any different. Here is one site that goes into detail about the many enhancements and customizations made to AR-15 style weapons since the 1950’s. World Guns AR-15

But even so, I do agree the weapon itself isn’t the problem, it is the combination of the person and weapon. That is why I support background checks for all sales and transfers, not just for sales by retailers and licensed dealers. If the bucket’s got a hole in it, it isn’t much of a bucket. I don’t understand the vociferous opposition from the NRA to requiring background checks at gun shows and for private sales.

181 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:35:04pm

re: #176 kirkspencer

hmm. nobody mentioned concealability.

Several people mentioned it, but do carry on.

And concealability is not an aspect of assault weapons.

Which is why the entire concept is flawed. It does nothing to target the one aspect that makes a gun conducive to criminality, size. The discussion has and is about a lot of things separate from AWB, such as magazine capacity, regardless of what any individual pedantic poster wants to limit it to.

As it happens pistols can be and are assault weapons.

But not by size, only again by pointless features like forward grips or location of magazine.

182 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:35:20pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

I presume you mean a type 03 FFL? Curio & Relics? Other than that, I can agree with your thinking as it is the smallest guns that cause the most damage. Having a way to control them would do our nation a million times more good than a repeat of the 1994 sick joke.

183 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:36:13pm

re: #169 goddamnedfrank

I get it. You don’t really give a shit about the vast, overwhelming majority of gun crime and firearms murders, just the high profile outliers that make the news. Somehow the idea is that if we target the cosmetic features this might have an effect on the underlying drive towards criminality.

Magical thinking.

No, you don’t get it. this conversation has been about assault weapons. so that’s what I’ve been discussing. Further I’ve explained multiple times why those “cosmetic features” are significant, why they matter. They don’t do JACK for more or less killing. (Well, except for the detachable magazine). What they do is create identifiable characteristics consistently found on this particular type of weapon.

You’re right. Eliminating assault rifles won’t have a major impact on the deaths. They are used in less than 10% of homicides an even smaller proportion of suicides.

HOWEVER, assault weapons also includes some types of pistols. Again, yes, the identifying elements are in some ways cosmetic. Further these are fewer than 15% of pistols sold in the US. But they get used at a greater rate in crimes and homicides. (not so much for suicides) It’s another reduction.

184 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:39:23pm
185 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:41:44pm

re: #182 William Barnett-Lewis

I presume you mean a type 03 FFL? Curio & Relics? Other than that, I can agree with your thinking as it is the smallest guns that cause the most damage. Having a way to control them would do our nation a million times more good than a repeat of the 1994 sick joke.

Yes, I meant Type 3 and I edited the previous post to reflect that. I was making the point that someone who has taken the needed steps to acquire such an FFL and is bound by the license’s requirements is highly unlikely to commit a crime with a gun and thus his or her having a small pistol isn’t a problem.

186 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:44:26pm

re: #183 kirkspencer

No, you don’t get it. this conversation has been about assault weapons. so that’s what I’ve been discussing. Further I’ve explained multiple times why those “cosmetic features” are significant, why they matter. They don’t do JACK for more or less killing. (Well, except for the detachable magazine). What they do is create identifiable characteristics consistently found on this particular type of weapon.

You’re right. Eliminating assault rifles won’t have a major impact on the deaths. They are used in less than 10% of homicides an even smaller proportion of suicides.

HOWEVER, assault weapons also includes some types of pistols. Again, yes, the identifying elements are in some ways cosmetic. Further these are fewer than 15% of pistols sold in the US. But they get used at a greater rate in crimes and homicides. (not so much for suicides) It’s another reduction.

“Assault Weapons” include pistols for reasons of statutes that predated the 1994 ‘Crime Bill’ and that the AWB needed to conform to. The ‘Assault Weapons Ban is an example of the old joke:

“How did God create the world in 7 days? God didn’t have an Installed Base.”

187 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:44:32pm

re: #181 goddamnedfrank

Several people mentioned it, but do carry on.

Check the thread. Prior to your mention the only “conceal” was in regard to a CCL license.

Which is why the entire concept is flawed. It does nothing to target the one aspect that makes a gun conducive to criminality, size. The discussion has and is about a lot of things separate from AWB, such as magazine capacity, regardless of what any individual pedantic poster wants to limit it to.

But not by size, only again by pointless features like forward grips or location of magazine.

I’m citing the law as passed back in 1994, and have said so multiple times. As it happens I think DF has a better idea. I don’t think it can fly, but it’s better. But until then the problem you’ve got is separating sheep from goats (or combat type from sport/hunting type). see also my post #121 for why I think a big deal was made about assault weapons. Not why I am, but why it was back then (and to some extent now.

I said it upthread, I’ll say it again. Take the weapons that are definitely unacceptable and take the ones that are acceptable and note the permanent differences that can be pointed to in a court of law. And whether you like it or not those differences tend to be the “cosmetic” ones you dismiss.

188 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:45:15pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

“Assault Weapons” include pistols for reasons of statutes that predated the 1994 ‘Crime Bill’ and that the AWB needed to conform to. The ‘Assault Weapons Ban is an example of the old joke:

“How did God create the world in 7 days? God didn’t have an Installed Base.”

true and yet they were included.

189 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:46:11pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I meant Type 3 and I edited the previous post to reflect that. I was making the point that someone who has taken the needed steps to acquire such an FFL and is bound by the license’s requirements is highly unlikely to commit a crime with a gun and thus his or her having a small pistol isn’t a problem.

For those who don’t know, said steps include a long ass application form and a fingerprint card. That was, IIRC, the 6th time Uncle has had me fingerprinted. I’ve been fingerprinted once since I first got my FFL too - that was to be a federal employee as a Census Enumerator.

190 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:55:12pm

re: #180 Mich-again

. I don’t understand the vociferous opposition from the NRA to requiring background checks at gun shows and for private sales.

It decreases the amount of sales because a certain number of people will not pass a background check. This is a problem for the gun manufacturers who are the ones the NRA really cares about because that’s where the $$$ comes from. Individual gun owners who would actually be helped by a better background check system are not who the NRA cares about.

In the end, the NRA exists to advance Ruger, Colt, et al position rather than that of the average gun owner.

191 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:56:08pm

re: #188 kirkspencer

true and yet they were included.

Not arguing that. I was commenting on the nature of federal lawmaking and the various difficulties new laws face when there are existing laws already in place in their field. It’s a long-standing interest of mine, going all the way back to high school.

192 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:57:52pm

re: #190 William Barnett-Lewis

It decreases the amount of sales because a certain number of people will not pass a background check. This is a problem for the gun manufacturers who are the ones the NRA really cares about because that’s where the $$$ comes from. Individual gun owners who would actually be helped by a better background check system are not who the NRA cares about.

In the end, the NRA exists to advance Ruger, Colt, et al position rather than that of the average gun owner.

Secondarily, the paranoid among the group think the background checks are going into a big database so the gummint knows who to hit when IT (whatever it is) happens. Remember that back in 1977 the black helicopter crowd took over the NRA leadership.

193 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:59:47pm

If you want to see a bunch of gun people that aren’t all the usual suspects and have a very wide ranging set of thoughts on topics like gun control, come over to [Link: www.theliberalgunclub.com…] and check us out. Depending, you may or may not agree. But gun owners are not all knuckle draggers.

194 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:03:45pm

Good night all, it’s been a fun chat this evening. Gotta get up early and head out with the cameras tomorrow.

195 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:07:11pm

The bayonet mount is an excellent example of a purely cosmetic feature —- nobody is getting killed by criminals using bayonets.

Thus the question come down to an empirical one: Do guns used in crimes (mass shootings, gang crimes, etc.) disproportionately have this feature or not? If so, does it make sense to pay attention to this feature in gun control laws?

Even if this is a disproportionately popular feature with criminals, using it in a definition of an assault weapon may not make sense, since that would means that the same weapon without the decorative feature would evade regulation.

Criminals aren’t stupid. They aren’t going to say “I can’t have my bayonet mount, so I’ll go the gang shootout armed with a plastic spork”. They will get the weapon that is functionally the same without the sexy cosmetic feature.

If this line of reasoning is sound, assault weapons should be defined only according to functional features.

196 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:07:50pm

re: #190 William Barnett-Lewis

In the end, the NRA exists to advance Ruger, Colt, et al position rather than that of the average gun owner.

Agreed, and a point I’d make is that the gun manufacturers face a daunting challenge for growth and long term survival because the products they manufacture don’t wear out over time like most other products, say for example automobiles. So for gun manufacturers to maintain sales and grow the business, they need to keep attracting more new buyers and/or keep convincing their existing customers to add to their arsenals.

197 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:09:16pm

re: #196 Mich-again

It looks like they’ve gone all in on getting the existing customers to arm themselves to the teeth. This kind of political polarization does not grow the customer base.

198 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:14:57pm

re: #197 EPR-radar

It looks like they’ve gone all in on getting the existing customers to arm themselves to the teeth. This kind of political polarization does not grow the customer base.

Once you build a factory, the only way to stay profitable is to keep cranking out product. But once all the potential customers buy your product and that product never wears out, then how do you keep selling it? I think this gets to the heart of the matter. The NRA, as the manufacturers representative has to either A) attract new customers, or B) get the old customers to buy more.

And whether they decide to go with strategy A) or B) they end up with the same tactics. Scare people.

199 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:28:37pm

re: #196 Mich-again

Guns do wear out over time, but it depends on how often they are used, just as is true with cars. But guns are often far cheaper to repair than cars, relative to their initial purchase price. Thus a cheap pistol might well be scrapped once it becomes badly worn, while an well-regarded HK rifle might well be given a ‘rebuild’-level overhaul to keep it working.

200 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:29:34pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

Guns do wear out over time, but it depends on how often they are used, just as is true with cars. But guns are often far cheaper to repair than cars, relative to their initial purchase price. Thus a cheap pistol might well be scrapped once it becomes badly worn, while an well-regarded HK rifle might well be given a ‘rebuild’-level overhaul to keep it working.

But if you only use your gun for self defense, chances are you will never use it.

201 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:33:48pm

re: #200 Mich-again

But if you only use your gun for self defense, chances are you will never use it.

But that is foolish, since a wise person will take their self-defense gun to the range and will practice with it. He or she will also take a self-defense training class every few years, knowing that ‘you will fight the way you train’ and that good marksmanship may save your life and will certainly greatly reduce the risk of you shooting someone with a stray round.

202 erik_t  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:35:41pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

Guns do wear out over time, but it depends on how often they are used, just as is true with cars….

This is true, but perhaps an equally relevant set of statements:

- Guns aren’t subject to road salt
- Guns are, usually, fired in the Grandma-only-drove-to-church-on-Sundays comparative usage scenario
- Guns don’t get into wrecks
- Guns don’t sit under that tree where all the birds like to shit

203 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:38:48pm

re: #200 Mich-again

But if you only use your gun for self defense, chances are you will never use it.

If you have any serious interest in self defense, your annual round count rapidly goes through the roof.

Shooting is much like photography or writing. To get good at it requires so many thousands of repetitions that I can’t count them. I have only been shooting since I was 10. Photography since I was 18. I don’t consider myself all that good at either as I glare at my upcoming 50th… Thankfully for my ego I think better of my writing, though my photography isn’t horrible. OTOH, I am grateful that most hunting only requires being able to hit a 9” circle at 100 yards…

204 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:40:28pm

re: #202 erik_t

This is true, but perhaps an equally relevant set of statements:

- Guns aren’t subject to road salt
- Guns are, usually, fired in the Grandma-only-drove-to-church-on-Sundays comparative usage scenario
- Guns don’t get into wrecks
- Guns don’t sit under that tree where all the birds like to shit

Guns are subject to road salt. Drop a gun on a salted road or sidewalk and it’s have to be thoroughly cleaned before it can be used again.

Hunting guns can end up exposed to some nasty environmental conditions in Illinois and Wisconsin. Temps below 0 F, snow, hail, mud can all wear on a gun.

205 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:42:42pm

Of course even if you never need to use it for self defense, you should practice once in a while at the range to keep the skills sharp.

But take this for example, I currently own a 2004 Chevy Malibu with 205,000 miles and no rust and I have done nothing spectacular with the maintenance. Never had a tune-up, never even flushed the radiator, same engine, same transmission.. It wasn’t that long ago that 200,000 miles was a crazy proposition for a cheap car. The gun makers have had access to the same types of manufacturing improvements that made the 200,000 mile car common. And most of the products they produce are scarcely used except for sporting guns and for target practice by aficionados.

So for someone who buys a weapon for self defense and only occasionally fires it, I’d hazard a guess that it would last for decades. Not a good business model for manufacturing. You need someone to keep drumming up more business.

206 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:44:04pm

re: #203 William Barnett-Lewis

If you have any serious interest in self defense, your annual round count rapidly goes through the roof.

Shooting is much like photography or writing. To get good at it requires so many thousands of repetitions that I can’t count them. I have only been shooting since I was 10. Photography since I was 18. I don’t consider myself all that good at either as I glare at my upcoming 50th… Thankfully for my ego I think better of my writing, though my photography isn’t horrible. OTOH, I am grateful that most hunting only requires being able to hit a 9” circle at 100 yards…

Point worthy of mentioning: A responsible, law-abiding gun owner who practices twice a month will likely fire far more rounds through a 9mm pistol he owns for self defense than will a drug dealer armed with the same model. The lawful owner has the greater skill, but in large part this is because he practices. But because he also takes better care of his gun and does not use it for crime, his gun is likely to last a long time, whereas the thugs gun will likely end up being destroyed by the police.

207 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:45:55pm

re: #206 Dark_Falcon

Point worthy of mentioning: A responsible, law-abiding gun owner who practices twice a month will likely fire far more rounds through a 9mm pistol he owns for self defense than will a drug dealer armed with the same model. The lawful owner has the greater skill, but in large part this is because he practices. But because he also takes better care of his gun and does not use it for crime, his gun is likely to last a long time, whereas the thugs gun will likely end up being destroyed by the police.

[dumb response deleted]

208 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:46:56pm

re: #207 EPR-radar

What the fuck?

209 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:48:50pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

What the fuck?

Attempted sarcasm that did not come off right. On the fact pattern you have stated, a “rational” response for the gun industry would be to increase business by fostering more gun crime. The NRA’s total opposition to dealing with the small fraction of problematic gun dealers is evidence in favor.

210 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:54:17pm

re: #209 EPR-radar

Attempted sarcasm that did not come off right. On the fact pattern you have stated, a “rational” response for the gun industry would be to increase business by fostering more gun crime. The NRA’s total opposition to dealing with the small fraction of problematic gun dealers is evidence in favor.

It’s still a non-sequitur, given what I was discussing. I was discussing firearms practicalities and then you burst in with that line. Sorry I snapped at you, but I felt as if I was being mocked for no good reason.

211 dragonath  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:55:13pm

Texas AG To New Yorkers: If You Hate Gun Laws, Move Here

Yeah, okay. Like New Yorkers would give up the Adirondacks and New York City to live in Rick Perry’s Drought-Ridden Medicine Show.

212 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:55:38pm

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

It’s still a non-sequitur, given what I was discussing. I was discussing firearms practicalities and then you burst in with that line. Sorry I snapped at you, but I felt as if I was being mocked for no good reason.

No problem. Deleted.

213 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 11:01:09pm

re: #212 EPR-radar

No problem. Deleted.

Thank you.

214 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 11:01:12pm

So there are good uses for firearms such as shooting sports, hunting, self-defense, and law enforcement.

And there are bad uses for firearms such as committing crime, expressing rage. and suicide.

I don’t think any reasonable people have a problem with the first bunch.

For the second one, comprehensive background checks for ownership and improved mental health diagnosis and access to treatment would improve things tremendously.

But when you look at the function of the NRA it isn’t about any of that stuff. The NRA exists to increase firearm sales at any cost.

And considering how they have presented their agenda to the American people lately the NRA is probably more of a threat to 2nd amendment rights than a guardian of them.

The 95% of gun owners who are not members of the NRA should squish the NRA like a bug and tell Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent to go get fucked.

215 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 11:07:40pm

The NY AW definition is going to snag a huge number of benchrest rimfires. Any semi auto with a thumbhole stock or a muzzle brake / threaded barrel. Ruger 10/22’s are a hugely popular benchrest and plinking platform, mostly because of how customizable the design has become. It’s so successful that it’s possible to build a 10/22 entirely from aftermarket parts. Easily over a dozen companies exist who’s businesses are significantly involved in servicing the demand. Off the top of my head:

Volquartsen Custom, Clark Custom Guns, KIDD Innovative Design, Tactical Solutions, Magum Research, Tactical Machining, Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels Inc., WhistlePig Barrels, Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Co. Inc., Stocky’s, NoDak Spud LLC., AGP Arms, Zimmerman Arms …

The effect of the law in it’s blanket banning of certain features will be to make criminals out of a bunch of mostly old guys who just want to sit at a bench with their heavy as hell low powered rifles and brag about the smallest grouping they can put on paper.

216 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 11:13:24pm

re: #214 Mich-again

But when you look at the function of the NRA it isn’t about any of that stuff. The NRA exists to increase firearm sales at any cost.

Although the NRA clearly would like to increase gun sales, I suspect the more important motivation for the NRA these days is fostering RW political extremism.

Getting as thoroughly despised by a large fraction of the population as the NRA is becoming is bad for business.

217 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 12:12:02am

Something to consider: When it goes into effect the NY law is going to be far stricter with regards to rimfire rifles than Canadian firearms law, which has no “evil features” designation nor magazine capacity restriction for rifles chambered in these calibers. Canadian legislators realize that very little in the way of firearms crime is committed with rimfire rifles.

218 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:13:04am

You mean the same legislators that forgot to exempt police didn’t consult with mental health professionals? Color me shocked.

Mental health experts say a new tougher New York state gun control law might interfere with treatment of potentially dangerous people and even discourage them from seeking help.

Dr. Paul Appelbaum at Columbia University said the prospect of being reported to local mental health authorities and maybe the police might discourage people from revealing thoughts of harm to a therapist, or even from seeking treatment at all.

“The people who arguably most need to be in treatment and most need to feel free to talk about these disturbing impulses, may be the ones we make least likely to do so,” said the director of law, ethics and psychiatry at Columbia. “They will either simply not come, or not report the thoughts that they have.”

“If people with suicidal or homicidal impulses avoid treatment for fear of being reported in this way, they may be more likely to act on those impulses,” he said.

Dr. Steven Dubovsky, chairman of the psychiatry department at the University at Buffalo, called the new measure meaningless. “It’s pure political posturing” and a deceptive attempt to reassure the public, he said.

Oh well, hey … fuck it. The important thing is that swift action was taken, not that it be in any way intelligent, constitutional, or remotely likely to reduce gun violence.

219 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:46:13am

This week’s motto:

Any discussion of the Second Amendment begins with “A well-regulated militia”.

220 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:52:21am

re: #219 Sol Berdinowitz

This week’s motto:

Any discussion of the Second Amendment begins with “A well-regulated militia”.

and ends with “ the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

221 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:53:33am

re: #220 sattv4u2

and ends with “ the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

At the time that was written those arms included.. muskets.

222 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:54:46am

We are not taking away anybody’s rights to keep and bear arms, we are just regulating them, as we do with every other right.

223 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:55:03am

re: #221 Mich-again

At the time that was written those arms included.. muskets.

And the “militia” included,,, local farmers and volunteers, most WITH their own guns

224 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:55:42am

The right to bear arms does not include the right to open fire in a crowded theater.

225 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:56:03am

re: #222 Sol Berdinowitz

We are not taking away anybody’s rights to keep and bear arms, we are just regulating them, as we do with every other right.

I agree, just wanted to add the second and equally important part of the amendent

227 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:56:52am

re: #224 Sol Berdinowitz

The right to bear arms does not include the right to open fire in a crowded theater.

Thats correct. And we’ve always had laws about things of that nature

228 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:03:34am

re: #225 sattv4u2

I agree, just wanted to add the second and equally important part of the amendent

The discussion is fixated on the second part and seems to blithely ignore the first, seeing any attempt at regulation as a precursor to confiscation.

229 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:07:20am

re: #228 Sol Berdinowitz

The discussion is fixated on the second part and seems to blithely ignore the first, seeing any attempt at regulation as a precursor to confiscation.

We have regulation (as we do the right of the people to keep and bear)

I agree that loopholes (gun shows) should be closed. Some of the other things being discussed (and passed, see New York) I’m still struggling with

230 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:10:33am

And lets not forget

It says the MILITIA should be “well regulated”

Am I, as an individual non-military gun owner considered as part of a “militia”?

231 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:11:08am

dammit ,,,, someone used my coffee cup and didn’t put it back in the kitchen!!

232 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:11:39am

re: #229 sattv4u2

We have regulation (as we do the right of the people to keep and bear)

I agree that loopholes (gun shows) should be closed. Some of the other things being discussed (and passed, see New York) I’m still struggling with

one can debate their effectiveness, but only a very narrow and ideologically fixated mind can see them as a threat to basic freedoms.

233 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:17:08am

re: #232 Sol Berdinowitz

one can debate their effectiveness, but only a very narrow and ideologically fixated mind can see them as a threat to basic freedoms.

One can debate the effectiveness of any regulation. There always will be cracks. The trick is to minimize them without going overboard

fine line and all

234 Mich-again  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:55:03am

re: #226 Varek Raith

The Republican Debt Ceiling Gambit Is Unconstitutional

The Constitution is a cafeteria.. Load up on the good stuff, leave what you don’t like behind. /

235 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:12:49am

re: #233 sattv4u2

One can debate the effectiveness of any regulation. There always will be cracks. The trick is to minimize them without going overboard

fine line and all

I agree, just not a slippery slope leading to complete confiscation and internment in FEMA re-education camps.

And we can be assured, when the next school massacre occurs, as it sadly and inevitably will, there will be people shouting out loud that Obama’s measures only helped facilitate it…

236 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:23:09am

re: #226 Varek Raith

The Republican Debt Ceiling Gambit Is Unconstitutional

I don’t really think so, since its just a temporary stoppage (I know what ThinkProgresss says about that, but I disagree) and moreover I think it won’t matter. It won’t matter because what the House GOP is asking for is reasonable.

To explain how the Republican proposal is reasonable, let me start by listing the things it doesn’t do: It does not cut spending and raise the debt ceiling in the same package, it does not try to force a shutdown or default, and it does not impair the operations of the Executive Branch. The onus of this bill is to force the Senate to do its job and pass a budget. It’s aimed at Harry Reid, not Barack Obama, and I predict Reid will have a hard time opposing it, since it simply demands that he do his job or not be paid till he does.

237 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:26:44am

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

I don’t really think so, since its just a temporary stoppage (I know what ThinkProgresss says about that, but I disagree) and moreover I think it won’t matter. It won’t matter because what the House GOP is asking for is reasonable.

To explain how the Republican proposal is reasonable, let me start by listing the things it doesn’t do: It does not cut spending and raise the debt ceiling in the same package, it does not try to force a shutdown or default, and it does not impair the operations of the Executive Branch. The onus of this bill is to force the Senate to do its job and pass a budget. It’s aimed at Harry Reid, not Barack Obama, and I predict Reid will have a hard time opposing it, since it simply demands that he do his job or not be paid till he does.

The 27th Amendment says otherwise.

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

238 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:28:54am

re: #219 Sol Berdinowitz

This week’s motto:

Any discussion of the Second Amendment begins with “A well-regulated militia”.

In the language of the times well regulated meant well or properly functioning.

“The equation of time … is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial.”
-James Joyce, 1812

I don’t know why people keep insisting it means something it clearly doesn’t in the context written. Why would the founders write that the “people’s right shall not be infringed,” if their intent was to infringe it. The well regulated militia is a predicating statement, the founder’s definition of a “free state” depending on it’s existence and the RTBA as a prerequisite for the formation of any proper militia. If the argument now is that the militia as they knew it doesn’t exist and isn’t necessary for a free state, then change the Constitution, don’t strain to misread it.

239 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:29:32am

re: #237 Varek Raith

The 27th Amendment says otherwise.

That only matters if someone sues, and no one will. The only people who’d have standing would be Democratic members of Congress and filing such a suit would make them look like a bunch of crybabies who won’t do their jobs.

240 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:30:23am

re: #226 Varek Raith

The Republican Debt Ceiling Gambit Is Unconstitutional

There we go, somebody reading an Amendment to the Constitution as it was plainly written.

241 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:30:24am

Issa: ‘No Budget, No Pay’ Is Unconstitutional

Then he flipped.
Wonder why.
;)

242 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:31:08am

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

That only matters if someone sues, and no one will. The only people who’d have standing would be Democratic members of Congress and filing such a suit would make them look like a bunch of crybabies who won’t do their jobs.

So you’re fine with a bill that is unconstitutional?
Come on, man.

243 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:33:18am

Good morning lizards!

244 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:33:37am

re: #243 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

LIES!

245 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:35:01am

re: #242 Varek Raith

So you’re fine with a bill that is unconstitutional?
Come on, man.

I sit better with that than with a Senate that won’t pass a budget.

246 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:37:24am

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

I sit better with that than with a Senate that won’t pass a budget.

Because the Rs would filibuster it.
;)

247 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:40:19am

re: #246 Varek Raith

Because the Rs would filibuster it.
;)

They can’t filibuster a budget bill, Varek, Senate rules forbid it.

248 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:45:40am

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

In the language of the times well regulated meant well or properly functioning.

I don’t know why people keep insisting it means something it clearly doesn’t in the context written. Why would the founders write that the “people’s right shall not be infringed,” if their intent was to infringe it. The well regulated militia is a predicating statement, the founder’s definition of a “free state” depending on it’s existence and the RTBA as a prerequisite for the formation of any proper militia. If the argument now is that the militia as they knew it doesn’t exist and isn’t necessary for a free state, then change the Constitution, don’t strain to misread it.

I will give you that point, but it refers to a militia, which is an organization, not just a group of armed individuals. A degree of regulation is implied there as well.

249 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:45:51am
It’s true that you cannot filibuster a budget resolution in the Senate, because the Budget Act provides special rules for consideration of a budget resolution, including a time limit on debate. So the Senate can pass a resolution with only a majority vote. However, the resolution does not take effect when the Senate passes it. It takes effect in one of two ways: if the House and Senate pass an identical resolution, usually in the form of a conference report; or if the Senate passes a separate Senate Resolution (as opposed to a concurrent resolution, which is what a budget resolution is) that says the House is “deemed” to have agreed to the budget resolution passed by the Senate.

But there are no special procedures for the simple Senate Resolution required by this second, “deeming” process, so it is subject to the unlimited debate allowed on almost everything in the Senate. If you do not have the support of 60 Senators to invoke cloture and end a filibuster, or prevent a filibuster from even starting (because everyone knows 60 Senators support cloture), you cannot pass such a deeming resolution in the Senate.

Because its rules are different, the House with a simple majority can pass a resolution deeming that the House and Senate have agreed to the House resolution so that it can take effect. This means the allocations in the resolution, such as for appropriations, are in effect in the House and anybody can raise a point-of-order against legislation that would cause a committee to exceed its allocation.

But this is for purposes of enforcement in the House only. What the House does has no effect whatsoever on the Senate or its budget enforcement. And vice versa, if the Senate deems that its budget resolution has been agreed to.

-Jim Horney of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

250 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:47:24am

re: #244 Varek Raith

LIES!

I won’t talk about it until Oprah calls me.

251 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:48:04am

re: #249 Varek Raith

So yes, the Senate could pass a budget resolution, but without the cooperation of the house or 60 votes, that resolution would not take effect; it would be an empty gesture. The fact that the House managed to pass a budget last year, including a major overhaul of Medicare, reflects its different rules that allow it to deem the budget resolution to have taken effect. But it didn’t ultimately matter: the provisions in its budget, including the Medicare changes, were not binding on the Senate.

252 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:51:23am

re: #249 Varek Raith

But that’s the point, Varek: The Senate hasn’t even passed a budget resolution! Such a resolution can’t be filibustered and once its passed and the House has passed its budget then the houses can meet in Conference Committee and iron out their differences. That’s the way its supposed to work, and we need to get back to that. If the Senate refuse to do its duty, then one must ask why.

253 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:52:46am

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Hardly. It’s standing up for a constitutional principle on which there is no wiggle room. The GOP proposal would be facially unconstitutional. It can’t be done, and the Democrats would get injunctive relief in a heartbeat and it would be found unconstitutional on full hearing.

The only thing that would hold back any such effort is that Democrats would be hit by right wing agitprop through the usual channels about how they’re all for more spending and their own paychecks, and not getting the budget process under control, but when the Constitution says what it says, the GOP doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

254 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:53:05am

re: #252 Dark_Falcon

But that’s the point, Varek: The Senate hasn’t even passed a budget resolution! Such a resolution can’t be filibustered and once its passed and the House has passed its budget then the houses can meet in Conference Committee and iron out their differences. That’s the way its supposed to work, and we need to get back to that. If the Senate refuse to do its duty, then one must ask why.

Unless the House passes a similar resolution, the Senate resolution is a meaningless gesture.
And you know darn well the House won’t pass any budget that is like a Senate dem one would be.

255 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:57:24am

re: #254 Varek Raith

Unless the House passes a similar resolution, the Senate resolution is a meaningless gesture.
And you know darn well the House won’t pass any budget that is like a Senate dem one would be.

That’s why there are conference committees, Varek, to straighten out differences between House and Senate bills. The idea here is to have both Houses pass their budgets and then sit down in conference and try to iron out their differences. That’s NOT an unreasonable thing to demand.

256 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:00:29am

re: #238 goddamnedfrank

In the language of the times well regulated meant well or properly functioning.

I don’t know why people keep insisting it means something it clearly doesn’t in the context written. Why would the founders write that the “people’s right shall not be infringed,” if their intent was to infringe it.

I’m sorry, Frank, but this is a bad argument. For one thing, we can both agree the militia portion is no longer relevant. The 2nd amendment is archaic, and the language shows it. A well-functioning militia is not necessary for a free state. The language of the 2nd amendment is a ‘Because… so’ format, so acknowledging that militias are no longer necessary really does point to a question of the relevance of the 2nd amendment.

Furthermore, the founders made the first amendment, but obviously they wanted to ‘infringe’ on freedom of speech in all sorts of ways. Even something as simple as copyright is an infringement on free speech. The rights in the bill of rights are not abstractions that exist absolutely. The 5th amendment against non-incrimination does not mean cops can’t ask you if you did the crime. The first amendment doesn’t mean we can’t restrict the use of speech reasonably. Etc.

If the argument now is that the militia as they knew it doesn’t exist and isn’t necessary for a free state, then change the Constitution, don’t strain to misread it.

The most obvious change, from a neutral, objective perspective, would be to simply remove the 2nd amendment since the causation for it— the militia being necessary for the free state— is no longer necessary. I am not proposing this. I’m saying that if you’re arguing from the position of logic, then the militia argument winds up removing the 2nd amendment, not refurbishing it.

In our times, that’s not remotely possible, nor would be changing the language of it. An attempt to do so probably really would provoke violence. And that’s part of why this is all so fucking crazy and frightening.

257 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:00:53am

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

That’s why there are conference committees, Varek, to straighten out differences between House and Senate bills. The idea here is to have both Houses pass their budgets and then sit down in conference and try to iron out their differences. That’s NOT an unreasonable thing to demand.

I don’t see how they can iron out the differences when one side is hell bent on destroying the other at all costs.

258 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:01:37am

re: #253 lawhawk

It’d just hurt the politicians who weren’t already rich bastards, anyway. It’d punish the least corrupt and most dedicated public servants, and not impact those who have made the most in the private market.

It’s a really pointless gesture.

259 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:04:15am

Who knows, maybe I’m wrong.
Parliamentary procedures make my head hurt.

260 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:06:26am

And by the way, to jump on Frank’s bandwagon: Having read and looked at the New York law, I don’t think it’s a good one, and I do think it was rushed. Every cop I know would, if they could, ban all the handguns in the US but wouldn’t really give a shit about the rifles. (and yes, I know that handguns can be assault weapons too). The New York law does not really address much of the problem and, I fear, gives people the impression more has changed than has. I wish we’d passed a law that revolved around the selling and buying of guns, not their existence.

I don’t think I’m letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. There is a finite amount of political capital for the gun issue, and I think the New York law just wasted some of it. And I think it represents a typical problem in our government at large, of penalizing the individual and not penalizing businesses.

261 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:06:33am

re: #258 Obdicut

They tried something like that in NYS back in the 1990s and early 2000s because NY couldn’t get an on-time budget. NY budget is constitutionally required to be adopted April 1. There were years where the budget bill wasn’t adopted until July. There were about 20-30 years of late budgets, and the mess caused all kinds of havoc with municipal budgets and added costs to everyone.

So the legislature had a bright idea - if they held legislative payroll, they could force them to come to a deal.

It didn’t work. It screwed the staffers, and they had a workaround, but in the end the budgets still weren’t passed on time.

A change in legislative makeup helped get on-time budgets, and the last two budget years have been on time.

T

262 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:13:28am

re: #257 Varek Raith

I don’t see how they can iron out the differences when one side is hell bent on destroying the other at all costs.

That’s another part of the point: Making things about the House and Senate deciding reduces the President’s visibility in the matter, which means the House is more likely to focus on getting things done and less on the House GOP’s dislike of the president.

263 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:14:34am

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

That line of reasoning is really scraping of the bottom of the barrel to find a silver straw to cling to.

264 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:17:36am

Funny, that stipulation on not altering Congress’ salary until an election a new election has been held was put there to prevent the very thing the GOP is trying to do - to hold Congress hostage to the threat of salary cuts.

These people are fond of reading the Constitution out loud and claiming to defend selected aspects of it, but they demonstrate a very poor grasp of it as a whole.

265 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:25:57am

re: #263 Obdicut

That line of reasoning is really scraping of the bottom of the barrel to find a silver straw to cling to.

I don’t like it either, Obdi, but the fact remains that many Republicans in the House have an intense animus against Barack Obama and reducing his profile in budget negotiations would help keep their anger from clouding the issue.

But leaving that aside, there one last factor to consider: A key part of this idea is getting budgets into consideration, holding committee meetings, and then passing those budgets in preparation for the conference committee. While that work must be done swiftly, it is normal work for the Congress and bringing in an atmosphere of greater normality might be helpful since it would reduce mental and emotion tensions.

266 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:33:46am

I’ve got to get going. BBT

267 Lidane  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:39:21am

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

That’s another part of the point: Making things about the House and Senate deciding reduces the President’s visibility in the matter, which means the House is more likely to focus on getting things done and less on the House GOP’s dislike of the president.

The idea that the idiots and rubes in the House GOP will focus and get things done if the POTUS steps back is hilarious.

The GOP’s entire stated agenda for the last two years was to make Barack Obama a one-term president. That failed. Now, they’re determined to obstruct him no matter the cost. That won’t change whether or not he’s involved in the budget talks.

268 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:43:15am

re: #265 Dark_Falcon

I don’t like it either, Obdi, but the fact remains that many Republicans in the House have an intense animus against Barack Obama and reducing his profile in budget negotiations would help keep their anger from clouding the issue.

This is completely foolish on your part. Their animus towards the Democrats in general, and to the population of the US they don’t represent, is almost as great.

But leaving that aside, there one last factor to consider: A key part of this idea is getting budgets into consideration, holding committee meetings, and then passing those budgets in preparation for the conference committee. While that work must be done swiftly, it is normal work for the Congress and bringing in an atmosphere of greater normality might be helpful since it would reduce mental and emotion tensions.

There isn’t going to be normalcy until the gang of Randian idiots are ousted and the rest of the GOP gives up on voodoo economics. This is not something anyone else can solve. This is a problem for people like you, who support the GOP, and you and other GOP supporters have utterly fucking failed to prevent this, and now are utterly fucking failing to do anything to fix it, despite having been warned for literally decades that this would come if you continued to indulge the anti-science and ideological purity of the GOP.

269 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:49:56am
270 RadicalModerate  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:04:29am

I think this qualifies as the “holy crap” story of the day, if not week.

Man points gun at leader of Bulgaria’s Turkish party

(Reuters) - A man jumped on stage and pointed a gun at the leader of Bulgaria’s ethnic Turkish party before security guards wrestled him to the ground during a televised conference on Saturday.

Ahmed Dogan, the long-time leader of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms (MRF) escaped unscathed, and it was not immediately clear why the attacker had targeted him at the party congress in downtown Sofia.
[…]
Police said they had arrested a 25-year-old man from the Black Sea town of Burgas who was also carrying two knives.

Video of the incident here:

271 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:53:26am

re: #265 Dark_Falcon

Republicans in the House have an intense animus against Barack Obama

Animus: a usually prejudiced and often spiteful or malevolent ill will

Somehow, that doesn’t seem a strong enough word.

Thinking a real-live person is the anti-christ is more than animus, it is psychotic.

The ODS leaves them unable to perform their duties, IMHO.

272 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:55:40am

re: #254 Varek Raith

Unless the House passes a similar resolution, the Senate resolution is a meaningless gesture.
And you know darn well the House won’t pass any budget that is like a Senate dem one would be.

It’s a stalling tactic, one that give them the feeling that their pee-pees are bigger than other’s. It’s a total ego trip and one that gives them some press coverage as well.

273 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:59:36am

re: #270 RadicalModerate

I think this qualifies as the “holy crap” story of the day, if not week.

Man points gun at leader of Bulgaria’s Turkish party

Video of the incident here:

[Embedded content]

Damn, looks like he left the safety on or had a jam. Yikes, that’s a close call.

274 sagehen  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:23:05am

re: #248 Sol Berdinowitz

I will give you that point, but it refers to a militia, which is an organization, not just a group of armed individuals. A degree of regulation is implied there as well.

It reads to me like they’re saying the Federal government can’t prevent the States from having whatever arms the State deems appropriate to their local situation.

National Guard. City police departments, county sheriffs, highway patrol. Selling deer tags every fall and letting people keep their guns year-round to stay in practice. Etc.

275 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:25:05am

re: #274 sagehen

It reads to me like they’re saying the Federal government can’t prevent the States from having whatever arms the State deems appropriate to their local situation.

National Guard. City police departments, county sheriffs, highway patrol. Selling deer tags every fall and letting people keep their guns year-round to stay in practice. Etc.

And that the federal government cannot interfere in their operations. Just as the law provides, the President cannot call out National Guard units until the Governor requests it.

276 Mattand  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:25:10am

re: #268 Obdicut

This is completely foolish on your part. Their animus towards the Democrats in general, and to the population of the US they don’t represent, is almost as great.

There isn’t going to be normalcy until the gang of Randian idiots are ousted and the rest of the GOP gives up on voodoo economics. This is not something anyone else can solve. This is a problem for people like you, who support the GOP, and you and other GOP supporters have utterly fucking failed to prevent this, and now are utterly fucking failing to do anything to fix it, despite having been warned for literally decades that this would come if you continued to indulge the anti-science and ideological purity of the GOP.

Unfortunately, this. Every time someone votes for the GOP, they are tacitly endorsing the, quite frankly, psychotic and dangerous behavior Republicans have been engaging in.

I would agree that DF has a point about Obama being a flashpoint for GOP ire, but you know what? Tough. The scary black man is in the White House because a majority of Americans wanted him there. Twice.

I have no easy answer for conservative/Republicans regarding their voting habits. Best I can say is if you’re a Republican, vote 3rd party or stay home. This shit of voting for the current band of treasonous*, deranged lunatics and then shrugging your shoulders, going “Eh, whatya gonna do?” is hurting everyone.

*Trying to destroy the United States economy to get back at a POTUS you hate is treason, IMO.

277 Mattand  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:30:56am

re: #256 Obdicut

In our times, that’s not remotely possible, nor would be changing the language of it. An attempt to do so probably really would provoke violence. And that’s part of why this is all so fucking crazy and frightening.

I think we should at least try to re-write it. I realize it’s a non-starter, but as I’ve said before, the 2nd Amendment as currently written is an archaic death pact. Of all the Amendments, it’s the most confusing, least understood, and most misinterpreted.

It’s giving a rise to sizable subculture of people who worship firearms with fervor they generally reserve for their Christian god. The fucking thing needs to be re-written. Yesterday.

278 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:31:10am

I almost wish the AWB part of the plan was dealt with separately in it’s own distinct legislation or Executive Order.

The other very necessary parts of it are going to be trashed in the fight over AWB.

Why can’t Congress quickly agree on the the other parts and get legislation passed, then we can fight over AWB.

279 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:32:17am

re: #277 Mattand

I think we should at least try to re-write it. I realize it’s a non-starter, but as I’ve said before, the 2nd Amendment as currently written is an archaic death pact. Of all the Amendments, it’s the most confusing, least understood, and most misinterpreted.

It’s giving a rise to sizable subculture of people who worship firearms with fervor they generally reserve for their Christian god. The fucking thing needs to be re-written. Yesterday.

Re-writing any part of the Constitution is not going to happen. Do you mean “amend”?

280 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:43:11am

The direct link, with more examples.

281 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:52:43am

DOGS say I can finish my night’s sleep.

Cat says it’s really a nap.

later all.

282 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:56:27am

ALGERIAN ASSAULT ENDS CRISIS, 19 HOSTAGES DEAD

AIN AMENAS, Algeria (AP) — Algerian special forces stormed a natural gas complex in the middle of the Sahara desert on Saturday in a “final assault” that ended a four-day-old hostage crisis, according to the state news agency and two foreign governments. At least 19 hostages and 29 Islamist militants have been killed.

The report, quoting a security source, didn’t say whether any hostages or militants remained alive, and it didn’t give the nationalities of the dead.

It said the army was forced to intervene after a fire broke out in the plant and said the militants killed the hostages. It wasn’t immediately possible to verify who killed the captives.

Damn. Looks like the terrorists killed all the hostages.

283 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:00:31am

re: #282 NJDhockeyfan

ALGERIAN ASSAULT ENDS CRISIS, 19 HOSTAGES DEAD

Damn. Looks like the terrorists killed all the hostages.

Russian news source saying they were burned.
Algerian forces launch ‘final assault’ on gas plant - seven hostages killed by captors

284 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:04:38am

re: #283 Killgore Trout

Russian news source saying they were burned.
Algerian forces launch ‘final assault’ on gas plant - seven hostages killed by captors

OMG. That is fucked up. They were probably burned alive. Fuckers.

285 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:05:43am

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

OMG. That is fucked up. They were probably burned alive. Fuckers.

That’s possible since the final assault seems to have been a response to the fire.

286 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:06:42am

re: #282 NJDhockeyfan

ALGERIAN ASSAULT ENDS CRISIS, 19 HOSTAGES DEAD

Damn. Looks like the terrorists killed all the hostages.

I’m not really confident in the Algerian capability for ‘surgical strikes’, though. Especially considering that the US offered to assist with drones and specops troops but were refused. And considering that Algeria is essentially a military dictatorship, we’ll probably never know what actually happened, unless it’s by accident.

Edit / correction: UK offered specops forces, US offered drones.

See link.

The Prime Minister told MPs that he had offered extensive British support to the Algerians, including Special Forces troops and specialist hostage-negotiators. Those offers had been rejected, however.
“I offered UK technical and intelligence support, including from experts in hostage negotiation and rescue, to help find a successful resolution,” Mr Cameron told the Commons on Friday.
“I have made those offers to the Algerian Prime Minister, and all those offers stand.”
Downing Street said that the Algerians had rejected those offers. “We have made clear we stand ready to offer assistance and they have not accepted it,” No 10 said.
Mr Cameron said he was unhappy that Britain only learned that the Algerians had launched their rescue mission after the operation began. “I will not hide the fact that we were disappointed not to be informed of the assault in advance,” he said.

287 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:17:29am

Yesterday one of their leaders said this was just a start and promised more attacks like this one. This year is going to get very ugly.

288 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:34:18am

re: #286 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I’m not really confident in the Algerian capability for ‘surgical strikes’, though. Especially considering that the US offered to assist with drones and specops troops but were refused. And considering that Algeria is essentially a military dictatorship, we’ll probably never know what actually happened, unless it’s by accident.

Edit / correction: UK offered specops forces, US offered drones.

See link.

The Algerians went thru 10+years of internal jihadist insurgency during the 1990s which *officially* caused 100,000 deaths. Double that figure is probably more correct.

The Algerian way of dealing with jihadist/bandits is; no quarter, no negotiations:

“you stir shit up.”
“we blow shit up, with no regard for collateral damage.”
“Your move”

That is why the bandit/jidadists were attempting to get the hostages out of Algeria, and into another country. And why the Algerian military attacked the convoy with no regard for collateral damage.

The Amenas bandit/jidadists were fighting experienced Algerian Armed Forces desert fighters who are filled with more fury and hatred for killing any attacking jihadist on Algerian soil, than the jidadists have in advancing their “grand design” of an Islamist calipate.

Algeria warned the West what would happen if Gaddafi was removed from power. Mali happened.

The West offered assistance re Amenas. Algeria said no. You screwed this up and we are going to fix it.

The best outcome of the Amenas situation would be for Algeria and other adjacent countries with experienced *desert* fighters to become involved in suppressing the Mali insurgency. With the West offering material support, but no overt involvement.

289 sagehen  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:39:10am

re: #288 BeenHereAwhile

The best outcome of the Amenas situation would be for Algeria and other adjacent countries with experienced *desert* fighters to become involved in suppressing the Mali insurgency. With the West offering material support, but no overt involvement.

What do you call “overt”?

I doubt Mali or Algeria or anybody else in Africa has much in the way of satellites. (I’ll concede that anything Air Force would be extremely noticeable).

290 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:46:44am

re: #288 BeenHereAwhile

The best outcome of the Amenas situation would be for Algeria and other adjacent countries with experienced *desert* fighters to become involved in suppressing the Mali insurgency. With the West offering material support, but no overt involvement.

That’s been the tactic so far that unfortunately helped create this mess. NYT had a scathing article a few days ago about how the us supplied arms, money and training to people in the military and government who ended up defecting (along with the arms and money) to the Islamists. The hands off approach has been a significant part of the problem.

291 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:59:50am

Mali incursion raises risk to French Jews, community says

The incursion caused “agitation” in Islamic circles in France, SPCJ said.

SPCJ also listed four anti-Semitic incidents which took place over the past four weeks.

On Jan. 11, a bearded man wearing military-style gear intimidated school children visiting Paris’ main Holocaust memorial. Wielding a knife, he shouted at the children “to leave Palestine alone,” the report said. Police patrols were called to the area but arrived after the man had left.

A similar incident occurred on Dec. 20, SPCJ reported, when a tall, bearded man in his 40s interrupted a memorial service for a deceased Jewish man and shouted at the 30 people present: “You are on my land and you are going to pay.” The man, who also shouted “Allah hu akbar,” was arrested and released shortly after questioning. He was identified as Traore Issa, SPCJ said.

On Jan. 5, “Child killers – Jews to the gas – long live Hitler” was spray-painted on a building in the French capital’s 12th arrondissement.

Three days earlier, anti-Semitic slogans, death threats against Jews and a swastika were spray-painted on a building in Toulouse.

292 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:06:26am

re: #289 sagehen

The best outcome of the Amenas situation would be for Algeria and other adjacent countries with experienced *desert* fighters to become involved in suppressing the Mali insurgency. With the West offering material support, but no overt involvement.

What do you call “overt”?

I doubt Mali or Algeria or anybody else in Africa has much in the way of satellites. (I’ll concede that anything Air Force would be extremely noticeable).

Look, the Algerians are not thrilled to have France overflying Algeria to attack the insurgents in Mail.

Algeria did not allow Western overflights during the Libya campaign.

We need Algerian assistance in regards to supressing bandits/jihadists in countries adjacent to Algeria. We also need Algerian oil and natural gas.

Overt is not satellite intel or material support. Overt is any further Western armed forces on the ground in Mali.

293 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:12:44am

Jailing of blind sheikh pushes Muslim anger against US, warns son
Ahead of President Morsi’s planned visit to Washington, the son of Omar Abdel-Rahman, who was convicted for planning the 1993 World Trade Centre, asks the US to free his father and warns of Muslim anger

In the press statement released in Arabic on Saturday, Abdullah says: “The American administration’s arrogance and stubbornness towards one of the Muslim world’s scholars, Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman, is putting the lives of its people at risk and costing them a lot.”

Abdullah goes on to justify violent attacks and the kidnapping of Americans by Islamist militants, such as Al-Qaeda, explaining that it is the US administration’s treatment of his father that “has pushed the Muslim youth to anger for the cleric.”

The murder of US ambassador Christopher Stevens to Libya in September during an attack by unknown armed men on the consulate in the city of Benghazi is one example Abdullah cites.

294 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:13:54am

Cont….

“We further hope that the US responds to President Mohamed Morsi’s request to release Omar Abdel-Rahman during his coming trip to the US,” Abdullah adds.

Morsi, who is expected to visit the US before the end of March, vowed during his presidential campaign to pressure for the release of Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman.

During his campaign Morsi called Abdel Rahman’s case a “responsibility on his shoulders” and that he would lobby for his release.

On 8 January, Morsi again repeated his promise during a recent interview with CNN where he stated that he planned to raise the issue of the jailed Sheikh with his American counterpart during his coming visit to the US.

295 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:21:31am

So we will reduce the threat of danger to our country by releasing a convicted murderer?

That’s some killer logic…

296 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:23:54am

re: #290 Killgore Trout

“The best outcome of the Amenas situation would be for Algeria and other adjacent countries with experienced *desert* fighters to become involved in suppressing the Mali insurgency. With the West offering material support, but no overt involvement.”

That’s been the tactic so far that unfortunately helped create this mess. NYT had a scathing article a few days ago about how the us supplied arms, money and training to people in the military and government who ended up defecting (along with the arms and money) to the Islamists. The hands off approach has been a significant part of the problem.

The Algerians are not going to defect to the Islamists. They would gain nothing by doing so. They have no illusions as to what the Islamists want to do to Algeria. We need to assist Algeria in becoming a stabilizing force in that part of Africa.

I don’t agree with your generalization of “it’s another waste of US aid.” It would be less costly in terms of blood and treasure than any alternative you could think of.

297 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:24:20am

re: #295 Sol Berdinowitz

So we will reduce the threat of danger to our country by releasing a convicted murderer?

That’s some killer logic…

If we just release all the terrorists they will love us!
//

298 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:25:37am

re: #295 Sol Berdinowitz

So we will reduce the threat of danger to our country by releasing a convicted murderer?

That’s some killer logic…

That ain’t going to happen.

299 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:32:20am

re: #296 BeenHereAwhile

Ah, it took me a bit to find the NYT article regarding Mali
French Strikes in Mali Supplant Caution of U.S.

For years, the United States tried to stem the spread of Islamic militancy in the region by conducting its most ambitious counterterrorism program ever across these vast, turbulent stretches of the Sahara.

But as insurgents swept through the desert last year, commanders of this nation’s elite army units, the fruit of years of careful American training, defected when they were needed most — taking troops, guns, trucks and their newfound skills to the enemy in the heat of battle, according to senior Malian military officials.

An American trained officer even overthrew the elected government. A simple support role has not worked out well. I think the French tactic of direct involvement is the best option.

300 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:34:02am

re: #297 NJDhockeyfan

If we just release all the terrorists they will love us!
//

No, but I bet if we give up all our freedoms, they will stop hating us!!!

/

301 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:38:47am
302 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:40:35am

re: #297 NJDhockeyfan

If we just release all the terrorists they will love us!
//

…and stop using drones!

303 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:43:41am

Luap Nor blames the US for why these terrorists attack us.

HuffPo:

Fox News’ Neil Cavuto countered, however, asking Paul if it would be acceptable to give terrorists “free run” even if it was clear that the perpetrators “hated us” and wanted Americans dead.

“They might ask the same question,” Paul said. “What if we didn’t hate Muslims? We have to bring up a lot of hatred for us to go 6,000 miles away and kill people with drones. This is where the conflict is coming. We have to beat the drums of war in this hatred that we go over and do these things and then all of a sudden we have an epidemic of suicides of American soldiers that come back [asking], ‘What am I doing over here shooting drone missiles and little kids dying?’”

Paul went on, referencing recent military suicide tallies — which last year reached a record high at 349 — and suggested that the trend, as well as terrorist retaliation, would only “get a lot worse as long as we think we are the king of the world.”

Heh.

There are lots of Paulbots over there at HuffPo supporting this loon.

304 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:46:56am

re: #302 Killgore Trout

…and stop using drones!

Stop using 98% of TV’s talking heads and 99.9% of politicians!?!?!?
/

305 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:48:09am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Paul went on,

and on and on and on and on and,,,,,,

306 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:48:44am

re: #305 sattv4u2

He will go on forever. //

307 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:48:50am

OH NOES!!!!

IT’S A POST MORNING RWNJ CONVENTION!!!

RUN AWAY ,, RUN AWAY !!!!
/

308 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:49:50am

re: #306 PhillyPretzel

He will go on forever. //

When I see/ hear him speak, I just want to give him a shawl and a cup of applesauce!!
/

309 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:50:40am

re: #308 sattv4u2

He should get a reminder to take his meds. /

310 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:52:02am

re: #309 PhillyPretzel

He should get a reminder to take his meds.

Or STOP taking whatever it is he does take!

311 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:53:45am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Luap Nor blames the US for why these terrorists attack us.

HuffPo:

Heh.

There are lots of Paulbots over there at HuffPo supporting this loon.

Heh. That’s why his son won’t inherit his father’s nutty cult following. Rand is plenty nutty but he’s just not crazy enough to have true appeal to his father’s fan club.

312 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:54:23am

re: #307 sattv4u2

OH NOES!!!!

IT’S A POST MORNING RWNJ CONVENTION!!!

RUN AWAY ,, RUN AWAY !!!!
/

I’m outraged!

313 jaunte  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:55:10am

Gun Appreciation Day At State Capitol

“…Saturday also happens to be the day before President Obama is officially sworn in for his second term, and the timing of the event drew criticism from people across the country, especially because it falls on Martin Luther King weekend.”

“I think Martin Luther King, Jr. would agree with me if he were alive today that if African Americans had been given the right to keep and bear arms from day one of the country’s founding, perhaps slavery might not have been a chapter in our history.”
— Larry Ward

314 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:55:34am

re: #307 sattv4u2

OH NOES!!!!

IT’S A POST MORNING RWNJ CONVENTION!!!

RUN AWAY ,, RUN AWAY !!!!
/

It’s comforting at least that y’all can find someone to point to as even more nutty.

315 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:55:55am

re: #311 Killgore Trout

Heh. That’s why his son won’t inherit his father’s nutty cult following. Rand is plenty nutty but he’s just not crazy enough to have true appeal to his father’s fan club.

Righto

Paul the Elder attracts the fringe of both sides
Paul the Latter doesn’t get anyone left of a Chris Christie

316 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:56:27am

re: #312 Killgore Trout

I’m outraged!

UNLEASH THE DOWNDINGS!

317 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 10:57:44am

re: #313 jaunte

especially because it falls on Martin Luther King weekend.

Who does MLK think he is, getting himself born in January like that?

318 jaunte  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:02:12am

re: #317 wrenchwench

January 19 has become Whitesplaining Day:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

319 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:02:25am
320 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:02:36am

re: #313 jaunte

Gun Appreciation Day At State Capitol

[Embedded content]

Ten to one these are the same sort of idiots all upset about “Django Unchained” promoting “anti-white racism”.

Logic………..how does that work?

321 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:03:19am

re: #315 sattv4u2

Righto

Paul the Elder attracts the fringe of both sides
Paul the Latter doesn’t get anyone left of a Chris Christie

He showed promise early on with Aqua Buddha but just couldn’t maintain the proper level of nuttiness.

322 jaunte  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:05:27am
323 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:06:24am

re: #318 jaunte

January 19 has become Whitesplaining Day:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

RWNJs don’t understand the concept of non-violent resistance. Same jerks thought it was safe to assume the Quaker school Obama’s kids go to had armed guards.

324 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:06:41am

re: #322 jaunte

omg the horror. How will the RWNJ get their news. ///

325 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:07:56am

re: #321 Killgore Trout

He showed promise early on with Aqua Buddha but just couldn’t maintain the proper level of nuttiness.

I can just see him sitting in his study,,, hands on forehead, muttering to himself

“there is NO way I can do that 24/7”

326 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:11:27am

re: #226 Varek Raith

The Republican Debt Ceiling Gambit Is Unconstitutional

Since when did the GOP, as currently constituted, care about that?

Debt, the Constitution, the 2nd Amendment and all their other dogwhistles are just tools that can be used to get and keep power. Once any of them outlives its usefulness it get tossed over the side.

327 sagehen  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:12:37am

re: #313 jaunte

Gun Appreciation Day At State Capitol

[Embedded content]

Black people did, in fact, try some of those 2nd Amendment appreciation open-carry rallies and parades back in the 1960’s… that’s exactly why California passed gun control laws forbidding such things and Ronald Reagan signed it. And then other states followed suit.

White people didn’t seem to appreciate guns so much when it was Huey Newton and Bobby Seale and a few hundred of their closest friends walking around with them.

328 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:13:24am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

329 darthstar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:16:10am

re: #322 jaunte

“the network will broadcast a continuous photomontage of white people” so regular viewers won’t notice the outage.

Fucking hilarious.

330 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:16:18am

re: #328 SpaceJesus

[Embedded content]

“[nerds] use their brains to hurt people”

Those without brains capable of inflicting harm use other methods…

331 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:16:39am

you little rats!

332 darthstar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:17:05am

re: #331 SpaceJesus

you little rats!

Someone move your cheese?

333 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:17:19am

re: #328 SpaceJesus

[Embedded content]

*Force Lightning*

334 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:17:44am

*uses brain to give alex jones wedgie*

335 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:18:36am

re: #328 SpaceJesus

[Embedded content]

You’re one of those evolution fucks, aren’t you.

336 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:19:11am

re: #335 wrenchwench

yeah. us nerds and our evolution and dirty tricks

337 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:21:17am

Not much in the way of video or pics from the rallies yet
VIDEO: Gun-Rights Supporters Rally At State Capitol After New Law
Not my cup of tea but looks peaceful, speech not too outrageous, good turnout. Not much juicy.

338 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:29:21am

re: #337 Killgore Trout

Not much in the way of video or pics from the rallies yet
VIDEO: Gun-Rights Supporters Rally At State Capitol After New Law
Not my cup of tea but looks peaceful, speech not too outrageous, good turnout. Not much juicy.

Except for all of their wonderful sponsors.
Birthers, white nationialists, militias etc.
Yep, nothing outrageous here.
If only this were OWS…

339 jaunte  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:30:15am
“I don’t feel like I’m a criminal. In order to keep order, we need good guys with guns,” said Heather Johnson, 36, of Kirkville, Onondaga County.

“We must stay vigilante.”

340 sattv4u2  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:35:00am

re: #337 Killgore Trout

Not much in the way of video or pics from the rallies yet
VIDEO: Gun-Rights Supporters Rally At State Capitol After New Law
Not my cup of tea but looks peaceful, speech not too outrageous, good turnout. Not much juicy.

That cop in the back. Looks to me as if he’s getting an itchy taser finger!!
//

341 Gus  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 11:36:40am

re: #338 Varek Raith

Except for all of their wonderful sponsors.
Birthers, white nationialists, militias etc.
Yep, nothing outrageous here.
If only this were OWS…

Yeah. Nothing too outrageous other than holding a so called gun rights lobby on the before the presidential inauguration which was put together by a bunch of reactionary yahoos which includes some extremist elements in protest against the President of the United States of America. Nothing to see here. I’m sure had this been done the before the inauguration of a Republican president the right wingers would have been fine with a counter protest of sorts as well and not have resorted to calling said protesters, treasonous, unpatriotic and traitors.

342 stabby  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 12:04:53pm

This combination of utterly insane incitement over guns and racist hysteria has me wondering if the President is going to be assassinated over this.

343 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 12:09:37pm

re: #299 Killgore Trout

Ah, it took me a bit to find the NYT article regarding Mali
French Strikes in Mali Supplant Caution of U.S.

An American trained officer even overthrew the elected government. A simple support role has not worked out well. I think the French tactic of direct involvement is the best option.

That’s not the first time US trained armed forces were involved, contra to the US, in overthrowing an elected government. Won’t be the last.

Even though France is directly involved in Mali, you can be sure they are carefully tiptoeing around Algerian sensibilities, Algeria recently having fought to become independent from France.

Are you suggesting that the US put boots on the ground in Mali?

The only sure outcome of that tactic would be the complete disengagement of Algeria from ever suppressing the Mali insurgents outside of Algeria, and France being able to blame the US for failure (should it happen) of its Mali policy.

Even the Algerian Military Government couldn’t withstand its public’s impression of assisting in re-colonization of North African countries.

The US, France and the rest of Europe needs a stable Libya and Mali. The US needs Algeria for its oil and gas, and the West needs Algeria to replace Libya as the power broker in Central North Africa.

344 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 1:07:09pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

I don’t really think so, since its just a temporary stoppage (I know what ThinkProgresss says about that, but I disagree) and moreover I think it won’t matter. It won’t matter because what the House GOP is asking for is reasonable.

To explain how the Republican proposal is reasonable, let me start by listing the things it doesn’t do: It does not cut spending and raise the debt ceiling in the same package, it does not try to force a shutdown or default, and it does not impair the operations of the Executive Branch. The onus of this bill is to force the Senate to do its job and pass a budget. It’s aimed at Harry Reid, not Barack Obama, and I predict Reid will have a hard time opposing it, since it simply demands that he do his job or not be paid till he does.

The House proposal is to defer the hostage taking on the debt ceiling by 3 months in order to prod the Senate into producing a budget that is acceptable to the GOP house. The GOP wants the Senate Democrats to own the cuts the GOP wants to make. So, if the Democrats do not capitulate within 3 months, the circus starts up again, complete with stupid threats to crash the global economy.

Actually you’re right, from a certain point of view. This is pretty reasonable for Republicans these days.

345 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 1:13:00pm

re: #260 Obdicut

And by the way, to jump on Frank’s bandwagon: Having read and looked at the New York law, I don’t think it’s a good one, and I do think it was rushed. Every cop I know would, if they could, ban all the handguns in the US but wouldn’t really give a shit about the rifles. (and yes, I know that handguns can be assault weapons too). The New York law does not really address much of the problem and, I fear, gives people the impression more has changed than has. I wish we’d passed a law that revolved around the selling and buying of guns, not their existence.

I don’t think I’m letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. There is a finite amount of political capital for the gun issue, and I think the New York law just wasted some of it. And I think it represents a typical problem in our government at large, of penalizing the individual and not penalizing businesses.

I’m reluctantly coming to the same conclusion. I suspect that part of the reason is that passing any kind of useful gun control has been unimaginable for so long that sensible model laws etc. simply don’t exist.


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