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Michigan Republicans Introduce New Invasive Transvaginal Ultrasound Bill

Making abortion more costly and difficult to obtain by imposing unnecessary procedures
Politics • Views: 23,218

On the heels of Virginia enacting legislation requiring women seeking abortions must have an abdominal ultrasound before having an abortion, Michigan legislators have jumped on the transvaginal ultrasound bill bandwagon. It was introduced by Reps. Johnson, Rendon, Heise, LaFontaine, McBroom, McMillin, Howrylak, Lauwers, Somerville, Haines, Haveman, Brunner, Brown, Hooker, Yonker, Muxlow, Kelly, Denby, Zorn, Franz, Potvin, Kurtz and Genetski.

All are Republicans.

This bill claims that because many abortions are performed in clinics devoted solely to providing abortions, these women might not have all the information they need (claiming a lack of informed consent). They’re using this as a cudgel to require additional time and effort to obtain an abortion. The language of the bill points towards the requirement of a transvaginal ultrasound

Elizabeth Nash, state issues manager for the Guttmacher Institute, noted that most abortions occur in the first trimester of pregnancy, when a transvaginal ultrasound would be needed to produce a clear image. The bill’s language is “mushy” but “points to using a transvaginal ultrasound,” she said, adding, “A transabdominal ultrasound doesn’t show what I think they would define as the clearest image.”

The bill also states that its goal is to “protec[t] the interests of the woman seeking an abortion by assessing the viability of the fetus and confirming the approximate gestational age of the fetus, as this information is necessary in order to determine appropriate medical care for the woman seeking an abortion.”

As the Daily News indicates, this is a nationwide full-court press by the GOP to roll back access to abortion by imposing unreasonable restrictions and regulations that add costs to the procedure or otherwise attempt to circumvent current federal law that allows reasonable restrictions:

Republicans elsewhere are also putting abortion back on the political radar at a time when party elites hope to move beyond divisive social issues. A new proposed Tennessee law would require a regular ultrasound at least 24 hours before an abortion, a bill in Alabama would stiffen requirements for abortion clinics in the state and legislation in Arkansas would make it harder for in-state insurance companies to cover abortions under the new national health care law.

But it’s the bill in Michigan, a blue-leaning state that President Obama won in November, that’s drawing the most attention.

“The performance of a diagnostic ultrasound examination of the fetus further protects the interests of the woman seeking an abortion by assessing the viability of the fetus and confirming the approximate gestational age of the fetus, as this information is necessary in order to determine appropriate medical care for the woman seeking an abortion,” the bill says.

Democrats have made clear they’re ready to fight the GOP-controlled statehouse on the issue.

“This is an unnecessary and unwarranted intrusion into the health decisions of women,” a spokeswoman for state House Democratic Leader Tim Greimel told Talking Points Memo. “This is yet another example of the Republican obsession with overregulating people’s private lives.”

Michigan’s Gov. Snyder has signed a number of abortion restrictions previously, including regulating abortion clinics similarly to hospitals as well as screening women seeking abortions, so if it passes the legislature, it’s likely to get enacted.

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213 comments

1 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:28:03am

Jesus Christ on a swingset, leave the womens alone!

2 Godisdeadandburied  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:29:25am

Wonder if conservatives know that this meets the legal definition of rape.

3 Bulworth  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:30:12am

More less government from the less government Teabag Party, class of 2010.

Also, too: laser beam focus on the economy and jobs.

4 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:31:02am

re: #2 Godisdeadandburied

Wonder if conservatives know that this meets the legal definition of rape.

Don’t worry, they’ll just redefine it to mean something else.

5 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:31:17am

It’s enough to make a man think the Kochs have major investments in the ultrasound industry.

6 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:32:37am

Michigan please do the smart thing and recall Rick Snyder.

7 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:34:07am
8 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:35:11am

Kansas is going to be back at this too after efforts to impose these kinds of restrictions failed last year.

9 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:35:49am

And the Iowa GOP has decided it wants to charge rape victims as murderers if they get an abortion.

Fucking scumballs.

10 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:36:32am

I propose a piece of legislation that requires any legislator who proposes a transvaginal ultrasound bill should undergo an anal probing.

11 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:36:33am

It’s beyond time for women to play the Lysistrata card on any legislator or supporter of these government rape bills.

12 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:38:27am

My district rep is Rudy Hobbs, totally committed to fighting this thing.

13 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:38:52am

re: #10 Gus

I propose a piece of legislation that requires any legislator who proposes a transvaginal ultrasound bill should undergo an anal probing.

All viagra prescription require a 2 fisted prostate exam.

14 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:39:36am

The simple fact is that these people think abortions are wrong and should be illegal. But they lost the frontal assault and are left with TRAP (Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers).

They’re insurgents.

15 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:41:03am

re: #11 allegro

It’s beyond time for women to play the Lysistrata card on any legislator or supporter of these government rape bills.

Totally will never happen and never did happen in history. Lysistrata is a comedy written by a man making fun of women. Women were not even allowed into the theater to see it.

16 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:41:06am
17 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:43:54am

They cannot call Obama a n**** out loud so they do everything they can to call attention to his race in a disparaging manner.

They cannot openly preach their Biblical view of creation in public schools so they do everything to promote it under the guise of “Intelligent Design”

They cannot win a national election so they gerrymander districts and disenfranchise minority voters

They cannot overturn Roe v Wade so they do everything they can to keep women from being able to excercise their rights.

These guys fight dirty and we have to make sure they do not succeed.

18 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:44:03am

SCIENCE!!!

Fischer: A Full Moon Is When ‘Satan Chooses to Activate His Influence and Control Over People’

As he traditionally does, Bryan Fischer began his program yesterday with a reading and discussion from the Bible. In this case, it was a passage from the Book of Mark in which Jesus heals a boy traditionally believed to be suffering from epilepsy:

A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”

That prompted Fischer to comment on the superstitious belief that mental health problems are tied to the presence of a full moon which because “that is the time, for some reason, that Satan chooses to activate his influence and control over people”:

19 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:45:52am

re: #18 Kragar

SCIENCE!!!

Fischer: A Full Moon Is When ‘Satan Chooses to Activate His Influence and Control Over People’

Remember that Rep. Louie Gohmert flung himself on the ground and started foaming at the mouth when Congress voted to abolish the designation “lunatic” as descriptive of mental illness.

20 Bulworth  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:47:00am
That prompted Fischer to comment on the superstitious belief that mental health problems are tied to the presence of a full moon which because “that is the time, for some reason, that Satan chooses to activate his influence and control over people”:

You’d think Satan would want to “activate his influence and control over people” more often than periods limited to a full moon. //

21 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:47:00am

Why is the concept that the government has no business in my uterus so hard to understand?

22 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:47:32am

re: #18 Kragar

SCIENCE!!!

Fischer: A Full Moon Is When ‘Satan Chooses to Activate His Influence and Control Over People’

The phrasing just kills me.

SATANIC POWERS… ACTIVATE!

Like he’s a fucking Power Ranger.

23 Lidane  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:48:28am

re: #19 Sol Berdinowitz

As long as we’re talking about lunatics:

24 Lidane  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:49:32am

re: #21 klys

Why is the concept that the government has no business in my uterus so hard to understand?

You’re talking about people who barely think of women as people. You honestly think they care about your autonomy or free agency as a woman?

25 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:49:45am

So who wants to take bets if jackw33 will grace us with his thoughts on this particular issue?

26 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:50:05am

re: #21 klys

Why is the concept that the government has no business in my uterus so hard to understand?

Because it’s not your uterus. It belongs to whatever man your father designates for you.

27 Bulworth  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:50:17am

re: #18 Kragar

Is Satan busiest during full moons? Teach the controversy.

/

28 A Mom Anon  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:50:27am

re: #23 Lidane

I prefer the term hatemongering asshole, but that’s just me.

29 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:50:37am

re: #24 Lidane

You’re talking about people who barely think of women as people. You honestly think they care about your autonomy or free agency as a woman?

Sadly, no. But my gut response to take a giant squeaky hammer and start smashing things doesn’t seem to go over well in general discourse, so instead I have to try logic.

30 DREd  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:51:01am

I think everyone at this Brennan hearing is a protestor.

31 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:51:02am

re: #25 jamesfirecat

So who wants to take bets if jackw33 will grace us with his thoughts on this particular issue?

He whose comments are like the piss of a bat? A golden stream shining in the dark?

32 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:51:02am

re: #25 jamesfirecat

So who wants to take bets if jackw33 will grace us with his thoughts on this particular issue?

“Mammograms”

I hope he takes a shower with a plugged-in toaster.

33 Jack Burton  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:51:28am

re: #10 Gus

I propose a piece of legislation that requires any legislator who proposes a transvaginal ultrasound bill should undergo an anal probing.

We hear about this crap day after day. We bitch. We say it’s outrageous/bullshit/asinine/whatever, and propose sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek but completely unrealistic counter-proposals… but seriously. How do we stop this? Is anyone taking these laws to Federal court? Is a SCOTUS case in the workings? Or are we just going to let this Christokookservatives get their way on this issue by the ‘death from a thousand cuts’ method?

Oh and… sorry Gus I don’t mean to sound as though I’m taking it out on you, I’m just getting weary of complaints in lieu of action.

34 darthstar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:51:44am

The Brennan Confirmation hearing is getting interrupted by one protester after another. Okay…last one…Now Feinstein is going to clear the room and kick out Code Pink.

35 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:53:54am

re: #33 Jack Burton

We hear about this crap day after day. We bitch. We say it’s outrageous/bullshit/asinine/whatever, and propose sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek but completely unrealistic counter-proposals… but seriously. How do we stop this? Is anyone taking these laws to Federal court? Is a SCOTUS case in the workings? Or are we just going to let this Christokookservatives get their way on this issue by the ‘death from a thousand cuts’ method?

Oh and… sorry Gus I don’t mean to sound as though I’m taking it out on you, I’m just getting weary of complains in lieu of action.

This end-run legislative cheating strongly resembles Jim Crow. And unfortunately, that is probably an indicator of how difficult it will be to remove it root and branch.

36 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:54:47am

Good evening America. I am a loooong time lurker here at LGF and many times I have read about Republicans here and there demanding transvaginal ultrasound before abortions, as a way of scaring women from having the procedure done. I hope you can answer me this question. Isn’t TVUS standard procedure before abortions in the US? I’m a gynacologist myself and have personally performed hundreds of abortions. Where I come from we would never do the procedure before a TVUS establishing the age of the fetus.

37 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:55:11am

re: #33 Jack Burton

What do you suggest? As long as people keep voting in Republicans, this crap is going to continue. We hear from our resident Republicans that they hate this shit, but still vote for the party out of some weird loyalty obsession, regardless of facts. How do we overcome this?

38 darthstar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:55:54am

Okay…time to head over the hill and go for a swim at the club. Play nice, everyone.

39 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:56:13am

re: #36 NorthWhale

Good evening America. I am a loooong time lurker here at LGF and many times I have read about Republicans here and there demanding transvaginal ultrasound before abortions, as a way of scaring women from having the procedure done. I hope you can answer me this question. Isn’t TVUS standard procedure before abortions in the US? I’m a gynacologist myself and have personally performed hundreds of abortions. Where I come from we would never do the procedure before a TVUS establishing the age of the fetus.

No, it is not standard. And thank you for your service to women. It is appreciated.

40 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:56:22am

re: #36 NorthWhale

Good evening America. I am a loooong time lurker here at LGF and many times I have read about Republicans here and there demanding transvaginal ultrasound before abortions, as a way of scaring women from having the procedure done. I hope you can answer me this question. Isn’t TVUS standard procedure before abortions in the US? I’m a gynacologist myself and have personally performed hundreds of abortions. Where I come from we would never do the procedure before a TVUS establishing the age of the fetus.

Is a TV procedure nedessary or can it not be done externally if it is just a matter of establishing the age?

41 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:56:28am

re: #33 Jack Burton

In some cases, the legislation has been introduced, but not advanced out of the legislature. In a few cases, the states have enacted the bills, but it takes time for someone to come and challenge the cases in court. It’s not going to happen right away. And once it is challenged in court, it will inevitably face round after round of appeal (presumably to the US Supreme Court), particularly if there is a difference between the circuits. These are test instances to see just how much these states can push the envelope on what kinds of restrictions they can impose that restrict access by and through the increased costs and invasiveness of procedures leading up to the actual abortion so as to force women to “opt out” of abortions altogether (or send them to another state where there aren’t as many restrictions, if that’s even an option).

42 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:57:11am

There is no a in gynecologist.

43 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:57:19am

re: #25 jamesfirecat

You missed me!

44 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:57:31am

re: #36 NorthWhale

Where I come from we would never do the procedure before a TVUS establishing the age of the fetus.

Are you to have me believe that transvaginal (rather than external-transducer) ultrasounds are also performed universally in the course of regular neonatal exams, in order to determine fetal age? Sure don’t remember ever hearing about that.

I mean no offense, but I treat your appearance and claimed expertise with skepticism. It’s been a troll-heavy week.

45 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:57:49am

re: #43 jackw33

You missed me!

You ducked.

46 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:58:03am

re: #34 darthstar

The Brennan Confirmation hearing is getting interrupted by one protester after another. Okay…last one…Now Feinstein is going to clear the room and kick out Code Pink.

#Dronebats Yes, because if we stopped using CUAVs we would not be using F-16s, F-18s, etc.

47 jaunte  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:58:59am

re: #42 Kragar

Oddly enough!

48 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:59:14am

re: #36 NorthWhale

Good evening America. I am a loooong time lurker here at LGF and many times I have read about Republicans here and there demanding transvaginal ultrasound before abortions, as a way of scaring women from having the procedure done. I hope you can answer me this question. Isn’t TVUS standard procedure before abortions in the US? I’m a gynacologist myself and have personally performed hundreds of abortions. Where I come from we would never do the procedure before a TVUS establishing the age of the fetus.

Don’t you have to know how to spell in order to get into medical school? Specifically your own specialty?

49 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:59:17am

re: #39 allegro

No, it is not standard. And thank you for your service to women. It is appreciated.

Oops, I misread the post. No, a TVUS is not a requirement or needed in most cases and if you say they are while claiming to be a gynEcologist without being able to spell it, you’re a troll.

50 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:00:02pm

re: #46 Gus

#Dronebats Yes, because if we stopped using CUAVs we would not be using F-16s, F-18s, etc.

When a nation’s military performs a targeted killing, it had better be goddamned sure their continued existence poses unacceptable risks to the country or the world. This has nothing to do with the systems used or the nationality of the target.

If they’re that big a threat, do it. If they’re not, don’t.

Seems simple enough.

51 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:00:24pm

re: #36 NorthWhale

My spidey-senses are tingling.

52 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:00:28pm

re: #43 jackw33

You missed me!

Yep twice.
///But my aim is improving.

Poor taste?

53 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:01:26pm

re: #36 NorthWhale

Good evening America. I am a loooong time lurker here at LGF and many times I have read about Republicans here and there demanding transvaginal ultrasound before abortions, as a way of scaring women from having the procedure done. I hope you can answer me this question. Isn’t TVUS standard procedure before abortions in the US? I’m a gynacologist myself and have personally performed hundreds of abortions. Where I come from we would never do the procedure before a TVUS establishing the age of the fetus.

Beg pardon, but where is “where I come from”? There are cultural assumptions that may need to be clarified.

54 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:01:28pm

re: #45 Kragar

You ducked.

Throw both shoes next time.

55 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:01:40pm

re: #36 NorthWhale

I’m a gynacologist myself…

Really? A gynecologist who can’t spell his own profession?

56 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:01:51pm

It is not considered precise enough. This have to do with a mixture of ethics and practical issues. For a fetus

57 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:02:08pm

re: #52 jamesfirecat

I’m flattered! What’s matter, the echo chamber too much for you?

58 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:02:43pm

re: #33 Jack Burton

We hear about this crap day after day. We bitch. We say it’s outrageous/bullshit/asinine/whatever, and propose sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek but completely unrealistic counter-proposals… but seriously. How do we stop this? Is anyone taking these laws to Federal court? Is a SCOTUS case in the workings? Or are we just going to let this Christokookservatives get their way on this issue by the ‘death from a thousand cuts’ method?

Oh and… sorry Gus I don’t mean to sound as though I’m taking it out on you, I’m just getting weary of complaints in lieu of action.

Obama said it best; “Don’t BOO. VOTE!”

59 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:03:00pm

Something smells fishy.

60 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:03:40pm

re: #56 NorthWhale

It is not considered precise enough. This have to do with a mixture of ethics and practical issues. For a fetus

What does ethics have to do with it?

61 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:04:03pm

re: #59 Kragar

Something smells fishy.

Smells like rotting beached whale.

62 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:04:22pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

Sorry about the spelling. I’m not lying, but I guess anyone can say that. I have no problem proving myself to you personally if you want to

And I’m not an english speaker either. I did the spell check you have put on LGF and it didn’t correct me.

63 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:05:19pm

re: #59 Kragar

Something smells fishy.

Funny how Jack showed up at the same time as our good doctor.

64 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:06:06pm

re: #57 jackw33

I’m flattered! What’s matter, the echo chamber too much for you?

Honestly I do love a good throw down on the subject of abortion because its one of the few subjects I feel quite competent and interested in discussing.

Do you feel that abortion is just a moral wrong or should it be out and out illegal as well?

65 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:06:14pm

re: #62 NorthWhale

Sorry about the spelling. I’m not lying, but I guess anyone can say that. I have no problem proving myself to you personally if you want to

And I’m not an english speaker either. I did the spell check you have put on LGF and it didn’t correct me.

Yes, the spell checker absolutely does correct “gynacologist.”

66 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:06:25pm

re: #63 Ghost of Tom Joad

Funny how Jack showed up at the same time as our good doctor.

Jack is a longtime lizard who just changed his screen name.

67 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:07:19pm

Im danish. And Im not a troll. Take it easy guys. Im one of you.

68 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:08:26pm

re: #67 NorthWhale

Then would you answer my questions? Why do you do transvaginal ultra sounds before every abortion? What does ethics have to do with it?

69 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:09:37pm

re: #64 jamesfirecat

I think abortion is wrong. I think it is immoral. I don’t believe tax dollars should fund it. That being said, the decisions a woman make are the ones only she has to live with and on this subject I agree that a woman has the right to have an abortion if she wants one and can pay for it herself.

70 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:10:16pm

re: #66 Vicious Babushka

don’t be a fool. you think I’m hiding from you? HA

71 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:10:26pm

re: #69 jackw33

I think abortion is wrong. I think it is immoral. I don’t believe tax dollars should fund it. That being said, the decisions a woman make are the ones only she has to live with and on this subject I agree that a woman has the right to have an abortion if she wants one and can pay for it herself.

So you support making it more difficult and expensive to put it out of affordable reach of many women who would choose it?

72 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:10:37pm

re: #67 NorthWhale

Im danish. And Im not a troll. Take it easy guys. Im one of you.

How long have you been practicing?

73 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:10:52pm

Somebody’s playing games here.

74 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:11:18pm

The reason we always do a TVUS is that is it the only scan considered precese enough. For a fetus 12 weeks it has to be medically aborted.

75 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:11:24pm

re: #69 jackw33

I think abortion is wrong. I think it is immoral. I don’t believe tax dollars should fund it. That being said, the decisions a woman make are the ones only she has to live with and on this subject I agree that a woman has the right to have an abortion if she wants one and can pay for it herself.

Do you feel that women should be able to get free abortions/abortions on the government dollar if the conception was against their will?

76 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:11:49pm

re: #71 allegro

I get suspicious when a liberal starts whining about the expense of anything

77 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:11:58pm

my browser is stange. This is not adding to my credability

78 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:13:07pm

re: #33 Jack Burton

We hear about this crap day after day. We bitch. We say it’s outrageous/bullshit/asinine/whatever, and propose sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek but completely unrealistic counter-proposals… but seriously. How do we stop this? Is anyone taking these laws to Federal court? Is a SCOTUS case in the workings? Or are we just going to let this Christokookservatives get their way on this issue by the ‘death from a thousand cuts’ method?

Oh and… sorry Gus I don’t mean to sound as though I’m taking it out on you, I’m just getting weary of complaints in lieu of action.

We are going to stop this by making sure the Dems hold the Senate and make off-year gains in the House and the states. If you’re not working in that direction already, you’re late.

79 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:13:14pm

Given how awful the typing is now for our Danish friend, that first paragraph-long post must have taken an eternity to compose.

80 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:13:24pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

In the case of rape or incest if the woman is indigent it is something that has to be considered. If you mean by “against her will” that she sobered up, no.

81 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:13:46pm

I don’t suppose the Boss Man would care to share the first two blocks of an IP address?

82 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:14:08pm

re: #31 Kragar

He whose comments are like the piss of a bat? A golden stream shining in the dark?

That’s one of Whistler’s, isn’t it?
;)

83 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:14:43pm

re: #80 jackw33

Because no drunk woman could ever be raped?

84 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:15:28pm

re: #74 NorthWhale

The reason we always do a TVUS is that is it the only scan considered precese enough. For a fetus 12 weeks it has to be medically aborted.

re: #76 jackw33

Lousy dodge. Do you think it should be made more difficult and expensive for women to obtain abortions putting them out of affordable reach for many women>

85 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:15:31pm

re: #71 allegro

Do you have a firearms license?

86 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:15:39pm

re: #73 Charles Johnson

Somebody’s playing games here.

I found this earlier comment where he claimed to work for a research facility. It seemed legit at the time.

And yes, Denmark’s abortion laws do mention a 12-week mark. Haven’t yet found info on what kind of ultrasound is required.

87 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:15:55pm

the reason we always perform a TVUS is that it is the only scan considered precise enough to exactly determine the age of the fetus. A fetus < 7 weeks we recommend to be aborted medically. A feus 7-12 weeks we can abort medically or surgical and for a fetus >12 weeks we abort medically. Also for a fetus >12 weeks it is manatory to obtain a special permission

88 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:15:57pm

I get a feeling that without Roofies, Jack would never get laid.

89 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:16:19pm

re: #80 jackw33

In the case of rape or incest if the woman is indigent it is something that has to be considered. If you mean by “against her will” that she sobered up, no.

So if a rich /middle class woman is rapped she should still have to pay for her own abortion?

Also where would you draw the line for a woman is “indigent” or not?

90 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:16:22pm

re: #85 jackw33

I do, as a matter of fact. So?

91 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:16:47pm

re: #90 allegro

I do, as a matter of fact. So?

AHA!! or something.

92 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:16:56pm

re: #70 jackw33

don’t be a fool. you think I’m hiding from you? HA

I wasn’t talking about you.

93 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:18:06pm

re: #80 jackw33

In the case of rape or incest if the woman is indigent it is something that has to be considered. If you mean by “against her will” that she sobered up, no.

Do you believe that women should have fewer rights to bodily autonomy than dead people?

94 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:18:18pm

re: #90 allegro

Well, I contend that the state and local fees combined with the mandatory training required to get a license puts gun ownership “out of affordable reach” for many here in my state

95 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:19:34pm

re: #94 jackw33

Well, I contend that the state and local fees combined with the mandatory training required to get a license puts gun ownership “out of affordable reach” for many here in my state

Bet you hate driver’s licenses and insurance to.

96 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:20:11pm

re: #87 NorthWhale

the reason we always perform a TVUS is that it is the only scan considered precise enough to exactly determine the age of the fetus. A fetus < 7 weeks we recommend to be aborted medically. A feus 7-12 weeks we can abort medically or surgical and for a fetus >12 weeks we abort medically. Also for a fetus >12 weeks it is manatory to obtain a special permission

At less than seven weeks it’s an embryo.

Where is it that you need special permission for over 12 weeks? Who gives the permission?

97 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:20:32pm

re: #89 jamesfirecat

I think a middle class woman would be less likely to have to rely on the state to rid her body of an attacker’s child.

98 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:21:24pm

re: #95 Kragar

a license is a privilege in my state. and insurance is the price you pay for it. it’s not a right

99 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:21:43pm

It seems odd that a transvaginal ultrasound would be functionally mandatory per a 1973 Danish law, since ultrasound technology didn’t really allow for practical systems until the late 1980s.

re: #96 wrenchwench

At less than seven weeks it’s an embryo.

Where is it that you need special permission for over 12 weeks? Who gives the permission?

Here’s the relevant (presumably translated) statute.

100 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:21:49pm

re: #97 jackw33

I think a middle class woman would be less likely to have to rely on the state to rid her body of an attacker’s child.

Do you agree with laws that make it unnecessarily more difficult and expensive for women to obtain abortions if they choose?

101 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:21:53pm

re: #97 jackw33

I think a middle class woman would be less likely to have to rely on the state to rid her body of an attacker’s child.

So she’s the victim of a crime and now she has to pay for it?

102 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:21:55pm

OK, quick bit of research and… lay off Northwhale, folks, at least for a bit. Denmark does indeed require TVUS prior to abortions to determine development time. Or rather they require ultrasounds, and the only way to get a clear enough picture for the critical 12 week break is with TVUS.

and Northwhale, apologies for the doubt and grilling but as Erik_T said we’ve had a rash of trolls, and this is one of their favorite fields.

Legal requirements.
Discussion of procedure.

103 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:22:32pm

re: #98 jackw33

a license is a privilege in my state. and insurance is the price you pay for it. it’s not a right

And you have a right to bear arms, in a properly regulated manner.

104 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:22:40pm

re: #93 allegro

They’re only dead after you abort them

105 Lidane  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:22:44pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

Really? A gynecologist who can’t spell his own profession?

Sure! Can’t you tell from this handy instructional video?

106 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:24:14pm

re: #104 jackw33

They’re only dead after you abort them

So you believe that women should have fewer rights than dead people whose organs cannot be harvested without written permission before death?

107 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:24:42pm

re: #97 jackw33

I think a middle class woman would be less likely to have to rely on the state to rid her body of an attacker’s child.

Yes she probably would have the money on hand to be able to pay for her own abortion, but just because she can, does it make good moral sense for this nation to fine someone a 372 dollar fee [Link: civilliberty.about.com…] give or take in addition to the psychological horror that she had to undergo by being raped?

In my book charging people for an abortion they are getting due to rape, is like charging people for being in a fender bender which was entirely the other driver’s fault, why should society punish the victim with a monetary obligation?

108 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:26:23pm

First of all. Im not a troll. You guys are sceptical and that’s understandable, but Im not lying. I thought you would find it interesting to talk to someone who actually performed abortions
Second. The 12 weeks special permission has to do with the Danish limit for legal abortion. If the fetus is older than that you apply a board of doctors and social workers that have to allow it.
Third. I do not enjoy performing abortions. I am a farther myself. I do it because I think it’s important
Please try to disregard the spelling mistakes. Im not retarded: I just spell funny

109 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:27:47pm

re: #108 NorthWhale

You’ve passed my scrutiny, for whatever that’s worth.

110 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:28:41pm

re: #102 kirkspencer

Thanks! I am not offended. If you guys knew how much time I spend here.

111 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:29:02pm

re: #87 NorthWhale

I think a lot of what you’re missing here is that the laws sponsored by the Republicans are not about ensuring anything medical, but require the doctor to describe the fetus to the woman, to point out ‘features’ on it— an attempt to make her connect with it and feel guilt. It’s not just that it be done, but that it be shown to the patient, and that there be this accompanying narrative.

The point is not whether or not it is standard of care to do them, the point is that it should be a medical decision between the woman and her doctor, and that’s all.

112 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:29:16pm

re: #110 NorthWhale

Welcome, hatchling!

113 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:30:55pm

re: #110 NorthWhale

You definitely get the internet thick-skin award for the day. You’re a good sort, as DF would say.

114 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:31:24pm

re: #108 NorthWhale

No worries - did some more checking and my suspicion was unwarranted. (As kirkspencer said, we’ve had a lot of trolls recently.) Carry on!

115 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:32:07pm

re: #110 NorthWhale

Thanks! I am not offended. If you guys knew how much time I spend here.

Sorry to question you, but it comes as second nature nowadays.

116 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:32:55pm

re: #107 jamesfirecat

I’m not saying “charge them for an abortion”. I’m saying that I guess most women who can get together enough money to abort their attacker’s child would do it immediately, without waiting for the state to offer them anything. Unless someone is destitute, most likely money is not the first thing on their mind.
Can’t you see how condescending it is that a raped woman must go to a bureaucrat to be made whole? Don’t you believe that if a woman is capable of managing her day to day affairs and financially stable she and her doctor can address the issue without the government’s supervision?

117 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:33:51pm

re: #111 Obdicut

Precisely. It has nothing to do with level of care or insuring the safety of the woman. It’s about trying to do everything imaginable to get the woman to not consider the abortion, up to and including using invasive procedures that aren’t medically indicated so as to make a woman reconsider an already emotional and serious decision.

118 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:33:58pm

re: #114 Charles Johnson

Scandinavia is a deeply weird place, often in good ways.

This one falls under the ??? category though.

119 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:34:07pm

re: #116 jackw33

You’ve reached epic levels of boringness. I can’t even bring myself to read your whole post anymore, it’s too predictable.

120 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:35:15pm

re: #116 jackw33

I’m not saying “charge them for an abortion”. I’m saying that I guess most women who can get together enough money to abort their attacker’s child would do it immediately, without waiting for the state to offer them anything. Unless someone is destitute, most likely money is not the first thing on their mind.
Can’t you see how condescending it is that a raped woman must go to a bureaucrat to be made whole? Don’t you believe that if a woman is capable of managing her day to day affairs and financially stable she and her doctor can address the issue without the government’s supervision?

Says the guy who wants the government to put every regulation on the books between a woman and her doctor.

121 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:35:22pm

re: #111 Obdicut

I think a lot of what you’re missing here is that the laws sponsored by the Republicans are not about ensuring anything medical, but require the doctor to describe the fetus to the woman, to point out ‘features’ on it— an attempt to make her connect with it and feel guilt. It’s not just that it be done, but that it be shown to the patient, and that there be this accompanying narrative.

The point is not whether or not it is standard of care to do them, the point is that it should be a medical decision between the woman and her doctor, and that’s all.

The politics around this is completely poisonous in the US by now. So even a reasonable-seeming bill that would require a ”medical consultation’ prior to an abortion would face intense hostility/skepticism from abortion rights supporters.

My first assumption would that any mandated consultation would take 10 months to complete, thereby effectively serving as the complete ban the wing nuts want.

122 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:35:24pm

re: #108 NorthWhale

Apologies.

If I may about the 12 week limit, is this something that’s rarely bridged when somebody has to petition that board? Do they only accept major extenuating circumstances, or is it fairly lenient? I didn’t see any specific criteria in the post from erik (unless you found further translated info?).

Just curious as to how often it’s granted past the 12 week period, and what’s an acceptable reason for such.

123 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:35:25pm

re: #116 jackw33

Can’t you see that the many roadblocks making obtaining an abortion unnecessarily more difficult and expensive makes it necessary for more women to HAVE to seek assistance in paying for it?

124 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:35:43pm

re: #108 NorthWhale

The 12 weeks special permission has to do with the Danish limit for legal abortion. If the fetus is older than that you apply a board of doctors and social workers that have to allow it.

That seems onerous to me. Ideally, no woman would get pregnant if she didn’t want to; next-most ideal, if she did and wanted an abortion, it would happen ASAP, but to have a board of doctors and social workers involved at 12 weeks seems—too much.

125 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:36:01pm

re: #116 jackw33

I’m not saying “charge them for an abortion”. I’m saying that I guess most women who can get together enough money to abort their attacker’s child would do it immediately, without waiting for the state to offer them anything. Unless someone is destitute, most likely money is not the first thing on their mind.
Can’t you see how condescending it is that a raped woman must go to a bureaucrat to be made whole? Don’t you believe that if a woman is capable of managing her day to day affairs and financially stable she and her doctor can address the issue without the government’s supervision?

You raise a reasonable point.

In that case would you be willing to say that a woman who has been raped should be able to get a tax refund/refund from her medical provider/whatever after the fact so that she can get the money back to pay for her abortion without needing to get a government handout in the first place in order to the abortion?

That way the raped woman does not have to pay to avoid the horrors of having to carry and give birth to a child that was brought about by rape and yet she also does not have to stand in line to get every single possible “i” and “t” crossed in order to get that abortion in the first place.

126 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:36:47pm

re: #119 Obdicut

I agree with you today and it finally dawns on you how boring your echo chamber has become, huh?

127 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:36:59pm

re: #125 jamesfirecat

Holy shit, dude, some days I think you’re Andy Kaufmann.

128 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:38:10pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

That seems onerous to me. Ideally, no woman would get pregnant if she didn’t want to; next-most ideal, if she did and wanted an abortion, it would happen ASAP, but to have a board of doctors and social workers involved at 12 weeks seems—too much.

Have to agree on the 12 weeks, which is why I’m curious as to how lenient that board is in allowing an abortion to proceed. I understand some limits on late-term abortions, but 12 weeks is pretty strict in general terms.

129 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:38:10pm

re: #126 jackw33

I agree with you today and it finally dawns on you how boring your echo chamber has become, huh?

No dude, I just got my echo chamber finished and it is fucking sa-weet, I’ve got, like, all these different rocks in there you can bang against each other to hear the echoes, if you use these two flat ones it sounds just like a machine gun.

Anyway, yeah, I do think Full House worked on more levels than people give it credit for.

130 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:39:39pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Holy shit, dude, some days I think you’re Andy Kaufmann.

Had to go to Wikipedia to check if that was a compliment or insult.

131 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:39:58pm

re: #125 jamesfirecat

I knew you’d insist government had to have a piece of the action somewhere in all of this

132 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:40:59pm

re: #130 jamesfirecat

Had to go to Wikipedia to check if that was a compliment or insult.

Yes.
/

133 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:41:00pm

re: #125 jamesfirecat

You raise a reasonable point.

In that case would you be willing to say that a woman who has been raped should be able to get a tax refund/refund from her medical provider/whatever after the fact so that she can get the money back to pay for her abortion without needing to get a government handout in the first place in order to the abortion?

That way the raped woman does not have to pay to avoid the horrors of having to carry and give birth to a child that was brought about by rape and yet she also does not have to stand in line to get every single possible “i” and “t” crossed in order to get that abortion in the first place.

(Making the caveat that I know we’re discussing the rape exception for a reason, because it makes a reasonable starting point for common ground.)

The issue I have with a lot of the discussions that make exceptions for rape is that it requires the woman to have some sort of proof that it was rape. A look at statistics about the reporting of rape shows that there’s a lot of rapes that go unreported and realistically at least some of those will have resulted in pregnancy. In a perfect world this wouldn’t be an issue, but we live in the real world, not a perfect one.

134 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:41:32pm

re: #129 Obdicut

You sound like you are on whatever it was Obama looked like he was coming down off of at the prayer breakfast this AM. After all, it was Wednesday night!

135 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:42:36pm

re: #131 jackw33

I knew you’d insist government had to have a piece of the action somewhere in all of this

So, should a woman’s health insurance pay for full “rape” coverage then, granting her to full access to whatever birth control or abortion options she chooses, without government involvement getting it the way?

136 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:43:02pm

re: #131 jackw33

I knew you’d insist government had to have a piece of the action somewhere in all of this

I think that society should not end up insisting in the long term that raped women have to pay for their own abortions because it is charging them for a necessary service that they need through no fault of their own.

Do you have a problem with that?

I’d be willing to accept that medical plans should freely cover the charge of aborting any fetus that was brought about by rape so that the private industry pays the money/bears the cost instead of government, would that make you happier?

137 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:43:50pm

Full metal wingnut.

138 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:44:05pm

re: #131 jackw33

Instead, it’s totally reasonable to have the government tell me what medical procedures I can or cannot have and when I am allowed to have them and how long I have to wait before I could have them (but don’t wait too long or it’s not allowed!).

Because that’s not condescending to women at all.

139 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:44:22pm

re: #80 jackw33

In the case of rape or incest if the woman is indigent it is something that has to be considered. If you mean by “against her will” that she sobered up, no.

Just quoting this as a reminder that we’re dealing with a gibbering misogynist creep who thinks sexually assaulting a woman too intoxicated to give consent is just fine and dandy.

140 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:44:27pm

re: #133 klys

(Making the caveat that I know we’re discussing the rape exception for a reason, because it makes a reasonable starting point for common ground.)

The issue I have with a lot of the discussions that make exceptions for rape is that it requires the woman to have some sort of proof that it was rape. A look at statistics about the reporting of rape shows that there’s a lot of rapes that go unreported and realistically at least some of those will have resulted in pregnancy. In a perfect world this wouldn’t be an issue, but we live in the real world, not a perfect one.

I agree, though my discomfort with the topic is that it doesn’t matter. To discuss “rape exceptions” just moves the goal post that much further towards making it more difficult for women to choose abortion if that is the right choice for them. It doesn’t matter under what circumstances a women becomes pregnant or what her reasons are for desiring termination. It’s her body, her right. The end.

141 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:45:08pm

re: #139 Interesting Times

Just quoting this as a reminder that we’re dealing with a gibbering misogynist creep who thinks sexually assaulting a woman too intoxicated to give consent is just fine and dandy.

He’d never get laid otherwise.

142 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:46:49pm

re: #80 jackw33

In the case of rape or incest if the woman is indigent it is something that has to be considered. [snip]

Just out of curiosity, what level of proof for rape or incest would you require?

143 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:47:41pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

That’s fine. I have no problem with that

144 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:48:00pm

re: #142 kirkspencer

Just out of curiosity, what level of proof for rape or incest would you require?

Videotape, 3 male witnesses and 2 forms of photo ID proving who the attacker was.
///

145 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:48:15pm

re: #140 allegro

It doesn’t matter under what circumstances a women becomes pregnant or what her reasons are for desiring termination. It’s her body, her right. The end.

THIS. This this this this this.

I don’t know what I would do if I end up pregnant. Having kids isn’t really in my plan for my life. Right now especially. But being a parent is never something I have aspired to and there are reasons why I think it wouldn’t be a good thing for me and so I have taken every reasonable precaution. And I am still terrified that something could happen and I don’t know what my decision would be in that case.

But it should be MY DECISION. Just like I respect the decision of those who would choose to have the baby. I don’t want to tell anyone else that they should or shouldn’t have a child. I just ask for the same right to decide for myself.

146 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:48:19pm

re: #142 kirkspencer

Allow me to expand. Should she be able to go to a doctor and make the claim, or does she have to have filed charges, or does it have to wait for an investigation or conviction, or some other point in the process?

147 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:49:03pm

re: #142 kirkspencer

“rape” and “incest” are both legal terms of art. The proof must meet the legal threshold

148 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:49:32pm

re: #140 allegro

I agree, though my discomfort with the topic is that it doesn’t matter. To discuss “rape exceptions” just moves the goal post that much further towards making it more difficult for women to choose abortion if that is the right choice for them. It doesn’t matter under what circumstances a women becomes pregnant or what her reasons are for desiring termination. It’s her body, her right. The end.

I absolutely agree with this. There should be no legal restrictions on abortion, period. The Republican Party needs to get the hell out of women’s vaginas.

149 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:51:37pm

re: #143 jackw33

That’s fine. I have no problem with that

Okay.

This moves us onto the next problem though, how do we determine for sake of this refund if a woman if a woman is raped or not.

I take it from your comment in 147 that you think the refund should only go out if a woman is able to accuse someone of raping her and have them be convicted?

150 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:54:23pm

Ghost of Tom Joad: The board permission sounds worse that it is. Up to 14-15 weeks they will grand abortion almost always and they meet 2-3 times a week. Often is it done over the phone. Everything above 15 weeks requiere somewhat better arguments.
Im sorry for not answering. After many hours of silence I suddently have work to do.

151 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:54:26pm

re: #146 kirkspencer

re: #149 jamesfirecat

No. If your home is broken into you file a police report and you file an insurance claim. You don’t have to wait to be paid by the insurance company until there is a conviction and you shouldn’t in this hypothetical case, either.

152 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:55:56pm

re: #150 NorthWhale

warm your hands up first, doc!

153 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:57:34pm

re: #151 jackw33

re: #149 jamesfirecat

No. If your home is broken into you file a police report and you file an insurance claim. You don’t have to wait to be paid by the insurance company until there is a conviction and you shouldn’t in this hypothetical case, either.

But what if this report is filed but they never manage to catch the person who supposedly raped her or they do and their is a trial but the person is found not guilty?

Should the company going to retroactively charge her/deny her reimbursement for the abortion?

154 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:58:12pm

re: #150 NorthWhale

Thanks, appreciate your candor and reply. Sure WW will be interested in the info too.

155 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:58:19pm

re: #151 jackw33

re: #149 jamesfirecat

No. If your home is broken into you file a police report and you file an insurance claim. You don’t have to wait to be paid by the insurance company until there is a conviction and you shouldn’t in this hypothetical case, either.

How soon after the rape does the report have to be filed for it to be valid? Does it have to be filed before the woman goes for the abortion? What about cases where the woman doesn’t remember because she was drugged or just too drunk to give consent? (I know you don’t believe it, but that can happen. It’s not just that the woman changes her mind when she sobers up.)

Again, why add another level of bureaucracy that the woman has to go through at what would already be a traumatic time? Isn’t that condescending to women? That’s what you told us before.

156 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 12:59:03pm

re: #152 jackw33

warm your hands up first, doc!

Holy shit, it has humor!

157 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:00:59pm

re: #150 NorthWhale

Note my post above for the political background of the laws in the US that you may have missed out on.

158 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:02:38pm

re: #153 jamesfirecat

re: #155 klys

I am not a state legislator, so I’ll leave it up to the people’s representatives to set the time frames for reporting a crime, because that is what it is. And if reporting a crime is too condescending for a woman, or a man for that matter, then there’s not much you can do for them

159 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:03:40pm

re: #147 jackw33

“rape” and “incest” are both legal terms of art. The proof must meet the legal threshold

Right, that’s what I thought you’d say.

See, the problem is that the normal time from accusation to conviction is over a year. So what you’re saying, whether intentional or otherwise, is that a woman cannot abort for rape or incest.

[edited to correct] ok, missed your re: #151 jackw33. It isn’t what you’re saying.

160 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:04:39pm

re: #158 jackw33

re: #155 klys

I am not a state legislator, so I’ll leave it up to the people’s representatives to set the time frames for reporting a crime, because that is what it is. And if reporting a crime is too condescending for a woman, or a man for that matter, then there’s not much you can do for them

You didn’t really address my question at all…

If a woman reports it and the suspect she describes is never found/is found arrested brought to trial and found not guilty by a jury of his peers should the woman have to pay for her own abortion?

161 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:05:04pm

re: #156 Ghost of Tom Joad

At first I was going to say give her a great big kiss for me…

162 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:06:47pm

re: #160 jamesfirecat

No. If your stereo is stolen and the police never catch the thief does your insurance co try to recoup their settlement with you?

163 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:07:42pm

re: #158 jackw33

You said that it was condescending to make a woman go to a bureaucrat in order to be made whole in #116. Yet that is exactly what you want to do by requiring that the rape be reported.

Over half of all rapes are not reported for SO MANY REASONS. It is not as simple as you would like to to be. It is very easy to sit there and make things black and white but the world isn’t. This is why black and white legislation (see the next article for an example) fails.

164 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:08:12pm

re: #162 jackw33

No. If your stereo is stolen and the police never catch the thief does your insurance co try to recoup their settlement with you?

So, so long as a report is filed the abortion should be covered by the woman’s medical insurance?

165 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:09:17pm

re: #163 klys

You have an option then. Pay for the abortion yourself.

166 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:12:17pm

re: #164 jamesfirecat

So, so long as a report is filed the abortion should be covered by the woman’s medical insurance?

That will put some serious stress on police departments, won’t it, costing the tax payers a whole lot of money that jackie doesn’t want to pay. Every time a woman has sex, she reports a rape “just in case” in order to get what she pays for in her medical insurance policy.

//

167 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:12:49pm

re: #165 jackw33

You have an option then. Pay for the abortion yourself.

Except you want to make illegal to do so.

168 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:14:16pm

re: #163 klys

re: #166 allegro

I tend to think the vast majority of women are far more responsible with their bodies, don’t you?

169 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:14:39pm

re: #167 Kragar

Except you want to make illegal to do so.

When did he say that? I must have missed it….

170 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:14:47pm

re: #167 Kragar

Have you been here long today?

171 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:15:35pm

re: #168 jackw33

re: #166 allegro

I tend to think the vast majority of women are far more responsible with their bodies, don’t you?

From your commentary here, you don’t think that at all.

172 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:17:05pm

re: #169 jamesfirecat

When did he say that? I must have missed it….

He wants all sort of regulations to force women to jump thru all sorts of financial and legal hoops before she can have an abortion, basically legislating abortion out of existence.

173 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:17:51pm

re: #169 jamesfirecat

When did he say that, I must have missed it….

He refuses to answer questions about what he thinks of creating more and more onerous roadblocks to prevent women from obtaining legal, affordable abortions. If it is made impossible for many women to get an abortion, then on-the-books legality of the procedure is moot.

174 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:18:01pm

re: #168 jackw33

re: #166 allegro

I tend to think the vast majority of women are far more responsible with their bodies, don’t you?

Given that the topic under discussion here was rape, that comment says an awful lot.

One out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. From RAINN.

175 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:18:04pm

re: #172 Kragar

He wants all sort of regulations to force women to jump thru all sorts of financial and legal hoops before she can have an abortion, basically legislating abortion out of existence.

I have not seen him make that particular argument in this thread if you could give me a link it would be appreciated.

(Just trying to be civil)

176 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:19:11pm

re: #175 jamesfirecat

I have asked the question several times. Jackie could clear it up quickly by finally answering it.

177 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:19:12pm

re: #171 allegro

Maybe you know a lot of women that would cry “rape” and run to the police every time they had sex because they weren’t sober enough to say “no” or responsible to enough to make sure they were protected when they said “yes”. I don’t.

178 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:19:30pm

re: #175 jamesfirecat

I have not seen him make that particular argument int his thread if you could give me a link it would be appreciated.

(Just trying to be civil)

Check the last few days worth of bottom comments.

179 allegro  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:20:30pm

re: #177 jackw33

Maybe you know a lot of women that would cry “rape” and run to the police every time they had sex because they weren’t sober enough to say “no” or responsible to enough to make sure they were protected when they said “yes”. I don’t.

You don’t get the // sarcasm symbol I put in there?

180 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:21:08pm

re: #174 klys

Maybe if the women who were raped reported the rape it would have taken the rapist off the streets before he could rape again

181 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:22:50pm

re: #180 jackw33

Maybe if the women who were raped reported the rape it would have taken the rapist off the streets before he could rape again

Go ahead and blame the victim again, you worthless sack of shit.

182 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:23:29pm

By the way Jackw, since you said that you think abortion should be legal you don’t support the Arkansas GOP’s efforts to say you can’t get an abortion after 20 weeks right?

I want to clear that up since it was the thread you first showed up on and I don’t think you ever actually commented on if you supported the legislation involved or not…

183 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:23:48pm

re: #180 jackw33

Maybe if the women who were raped reported the rape it would have taken the rapist off the streets before he could rape again

That’s a new interpretation of victim blaming that I haven’t seen before.

184 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:25:18pm

re: #180 jackw33

re: #181 Kragar

And even if it is reported, odds are stacked against the victim in terms of anything actually getting done.

I’m waiting for the “dress like a slut” argument. Unless he’s already burned that bridge too.

185 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:25:43pm

re: #181 Kragar

Putting words in my mouth all afternoon long aren’t you, prog? Go back to your XBOX this is over your head

186 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:26:17pm

re: #184 Ghost of Tom Joad

re: #181 Kragar

And even if it is reported, odds are stacked against the victim in terms of anything actually getting done.

I’m waiting for the “dress like a slut” argument. Unless he’s already burned that bridge too.

He used the “she should keep her legs shut” line before, does that count?

187 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:29:05pm

re: #185 jackw33

Putting words in my mouth all afternoon long aren’t you, prog? Go back to your XBOX this is over your head

Prog? Go back to my XBOX? Wow, what a cutting edge rapier wit you have there.

188 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:30:25pm

re: #184 Ghost of Tom Joad

There’s no winning or even compromise. You all want unlimited, fully funded abortion right up until the date of delivery and any reasonable person trying to compromise or offer a differing opinion is badgered, insulted and demeaned by all of you. You wonder why your shitty president has failed and why the statehouses are full of legislators that are rolling back your failed policies. It’s because of narrow minded a’holes like all of you

189 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:30:36pm

re: #186 Kragar

He used the “she should keep her legs shut” line before, does that count?

Forgot that one. Bridge burned.

I don’t even know what the argument is anymore. Is it about the infinitesimal amount the government doesn’t actually spend on abortions or some shit? I get confused as to what argument they try to cloak their misogyny in anymore.

190 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:31:46pm

re: #188 jackw33

There’s no winning or even compromise. You all want unlimited, fully funded abortion right up until the date of delivery and any reasonable person trying to compromise or offer a differing opinion is badgered, insulted and demeaned by all of you. You wonder why your shitty president has failed and why the statehouses are full of legislators that are rolling back your failed policies. It’s because of narrow minded a’holes like all of you

Its like silvery or bronzy, but made of iron.

191 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:32:26pm

re: #188 jackw33

There’s no winning or even compromise. You all want unlimited, fully funded abortion right up until the date of delivery and any reasonable person trying to compromise or offer a differing opinion is badgered, insulted and demeaned by all of you. You wonder why your shitty president has failed and why the statehouses are full of legislators that are rolling back your failed policies. It’s because of narrow minded a’holes like all of you

Bullshit.

192 jackw33  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:32:30pm

re: #190 Kragar

And you’re the biggest asshole of them all

193 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:32:55pm

re: #188 jackw33

There’s no winning or even compromise. You all want unlimited, fully funded abortion right up until the date of delivery and any reasonable person trying to compromise or offer a differing opinion is badgered, insulted and demeaned by all of you. You wonder why your shitty president has failed and why the statehouses are full of legislators that are rolling back your failed policies. It’s because of narrow minded a’holes like all of you

Do you have a problem with the unlimited or just the fully funded?

I thought you said you were in favor of abortion being legal, are there some cases where you do not want it to be legal?

194 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:33:11pm

re: #192 jackw33

And you’re the biggest asshole of them all

Don’t try flattering your way out of this now.

195 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:33:47pm

re: #192 jackw33

Yeah, Kragar is our regular peace loving hippie and draft dodger.

//

196 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:36:00pm

re: #188 jackw33

There’s no winning or even compromise. You all want unlimited, fully funded abortion right up until the date of delivery and any reasonable person trying to compromise or offer a differing opinion is badgered, insulted and demeaned by all of you. You wonder why your shitty president has failed and why the statehouses are full of legislators that are rolling back your failed policies. It’s because of narrow minded a’holes like all of you

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated into the collective.

Oh we’re coming for you. We’re going to take your guns, abort babies while you’re eating dinner, let Shariah law run your life, and force you to eat BRUSSEL SPROUTS! It’s coming, you know it!

Abandon your posts! Flee, flee for your lives!

197 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:37:12pm

re: #188 jackw33

It’s funny, because I don’t think I said anywhere that I wanted fully funded abortion up to delivery date. Haven’t seen anyone else say that either. Didn’t you just complain about people putting words in your mouth?

What we have done is presented some of the edge-cases that would have to be resolved. Pesky things like, does insurance cover it? Is there a plan that allows abortions and ones that don’t? (This is a medical procedure, after all.) What about the cases of rape (and we gave some examples of why these restrictions are tricky)? Health of the mother? This is not a black and white issue, there is room for compromise - but that requires discussion of the nuances. Which to you is apparently badgering.

Given your comments, I’m going to guess that I have a bigger stake in this debate than you do.

198 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:37:56pm

re: #194 Kragar

Don’t try flattering your way out of this now.

Go play with your Atari, you unwashed hippie freak.

199 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:38:34pm

For the record, I have no problem with guidelines being set for late term abortions, and even other possible regulations, but only after full unlimited access to birth control, morning after contraception, and post rape contraception are available nationwide.

200 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:38:38pm

re: #196 Ghost of Tom Joad

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated into the collective.

Oh we’re coming for you. We’re going to take your guns, abort babies while you’re eating dinner, let Shariah law run your life, and force you to eat BRUSSEL SPROUTS! It’s coming, you know it!

Abandon your posts! Flee, flee for your lives!

Free Bradley Manning!!

//

201 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:39:29pm

I still think this has to be a Wingnut Clichébot, designed to reinforce negative stereotypes about right wingers.

202 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:40:07pm

re: #198 Charles Johnson

Go play with your Atari, you unwashed hippie freak.

I’m going to have play Intellivision all night to get past the shame.

203 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:41:51pm

re: #201 Charles Johnson

I still think this has to be a Wingnut Clichébot, designed to reinforce negative stereotypes about right wingers.

That can only mean one thing. JackW33 is really a leftist in disguise!

204 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:42:56pm

re: #203 Gus

That can only mean one thing. JackW33 is really a leftist in disguise!

Plausible. A real wingnut would most likely have managed to post something offensive enough to be banned.

205 NorthWhale  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:44:09pm

Im sorry that I cant participate in the discussion, I would have kept silent if I knew I had to work, but I have a patient with preeclampsia that I have to attent to. My 2 cents are that I would always argue in favor of a TVUS before abortion, but because of medical reasons only. And I think politiciens should keep their fat noses away from all medical procedurs.

206 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:45:39pm

re: #205 NorthWhale

And I think politiciens should keep their fat noses away from all medical procedurs.

We’ve been saying that for years now.

207 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:49:00pm

JackW if it would help I could take a turn answering your questions on how I feel about abortion/what kind of policy I think should be put in place/how I think it should work…

208 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:53:41pm

re: #188 jackw33

There’s no winning or even compromise. You all want unlimited, fully funded abortion right up until the date of delivery and any reasonable person trying to compromise or offer a differing opinion is badgered, insulted and demeaned by all of you. You wonder why your shitty president has failed and why the statehouses are full of legislators that are rolling back your failed policies. It’s because of narrow minded a’holes like all of you

No, we don’t. Not one person here has said so.

As it happens, I think abortion should be unrestricted till viability. After viability, a cesarean section should be allowed as an alternative with the state or an interested party becoming responsible for the result. I think there’s a gray zone after viability where questions of function (physical and mental non-development) apply.

And yes, I’m a liberal who thinks that if a woman is on or eligible for government insurance that it should pay for that. Government insurance being not only medicaid/medicare but Tri-Care and GEHA, as well as the various state plans.

209 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 1:58:56pm

I’d say that Jack is now stumped but that’s probably my altruism talking.

210 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:05:16pm

re: #209 Gus

I’d say that Jack is now stumped but that’s probably my altruism talking.

Mom must have come home.

211 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:11:02pm

He’ll be sad not to rule the bottom comments today, what with the competition from the overnight thread.

212 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:32:30pm

re: #209 Gus

Wingnut Clichébot is un-stumpable.

213 ibob  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:41:55pm

I am late to this discussion, but I seemed to me from the start that NorthWhale was legitimate and not from the US. The English spelling for gynecologist is gynaecologist. Also, there is a different charge in the US for D&C’s(whether elective or not) depending on the gestation. A surgical abortion (D&C) performed before 7 weeks may actually miss the gestational sac because it is so small, and an abortion after 12 weeks is technically more difficult to perform due to the larger size.


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