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Dan Rather on Reddit: “No One Ever Established the Documents Were Forged”

Clinging to denial
Media • Views: 20,491

Dan Rather went on Reddit yesterday for one of their “Ask Me Anything” sessions, and inevitably, the subject of the faked George W. Bush National Guard memos came up. Reddit user “RadOwl” asked:

Did G.W. Bush skip out on his National Guard duties, as you reported? You really took a beating for covering that story!

Rather responded:

the short answer is yes but i’ll post a short video with more detail soon. EDIT: here is the video

That was followed by a question from “TomSwirly:”

Many people, myself included, wondered if the whole thing was a trap - to discredit you by planting documents that were forged but that contained information that you strongly suspected to be true from other sources.

And here we go again, because Dan Rather continues to insist that the documents he used in his 60 Minutes II story were never proven to be fakes.

Here’s his post:

number 1 - the facts of case are not in dispute. Number 2 - no one had ever established that the documents were forged (those who attack them argued that we didn’t do enough to demonstrate that they were not forged) The whole documents argument was a camouflage - what was described in the documents was factual. As for the trap argument — could have been, might have been but nobody has ever proven that. What I know, all I know, is we reported a true story. Whatever you think of the documents, facts are facts. Fact #1 - a young George Bush was put into a “champagne unit” of the Air National Guard through the influence of his father to ensure he wouldn’t have to go to Vietnam. Fact #2 - once in this “champagne unit” the young George Bush did reasonably well for awhile and then he disappeared - he just took off. No accountability. He was absent without leave for a very long time. Fact #3 - he never completed his obligation the length of service. He got out well before his time was up.

In the video linked above, Rather says:

“Any number of people, powerful people, for their own personal, ideological and partisan political reasons, didn’t like the fact that the story got out, and we were the first to put it on television … and they sought to discredit it.”

I’m flattered that Dan Rather thinks I’m powerful, but he couldn’t be more wrong about my reason for debunking his story. I wasn’t the only one who helped bring the phony documents to light, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my case it was not about politics or ideology — it was about exposing a blatant, obvious fraud being perpetrated on the American public.

Facts is facts, and the simple fact is that the documents were indeed proven to be frauds, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Dan Rather is only embarrassing himself by continuing to deny this, and I’m sorry to see it; he’s done some great journalism in his day, and it’s sad that his ego won’t let him admit this mistake and move on.

I won’t go through all the evidence again in this post, but here’s our master index of the story as it happened, in chronological order: CBS Killian Document Index.

I still remember the feeling when I first opened the memo dated August 1973 in Adobe Acrobat, and realized instantly that I was looking at a fake, a document created with a modern word processor and not a 1970s typewriter. When I decided to see if MS Word could reproduce it, I expected to have to do some fiddling around with margins and fonts, etc., and was frankly a little shocked when my very first efforts produced an exact match, using the default tab stops and font settings.

Here’s the infamous “throbbing memo” — the animated GIF I created by typing a copy of the August 1973 memo into Microsoft Word, using Word’s default settings without changing anything, and overlaying the printed copy on the PDF document released by CBS. As you can see, they’re not just similar, they’re identical:

To salvage some credibility from his debunked story, Rather is still clinging to the “fake but accurate” line too. The problem is that without specific evidence about specific offenses, the story that Bush received preferential treatment in the TANG was only borderline interesting.

I mean, a powerful person’s son gets preferential treatment?! Who’s ever heard of that happening?

What might have made Rather’s story an election-changer was the specific nature of the allegations, based on the National Guard memos. And those were faked. Phonies. Frauds. Bogus. End of story.

Jump to bottom

521 comments

1 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:06:13pm

THROBBING MEMO!

Dan, your argument is invalid.

2 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:06:21pm

Except for the numerous experts who’ve gone on record that they were forgeries, no one has proven they were forgeries.

3 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:07:49pm

Rather forgot one of the basic life lessons here —- if it looks too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true.

It would be painful for him to admit he flushed his credibility and a chunk of his career down the toilet over something so stupid, but then at least he could move on.

Clinging like this is pathetic.

4 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:08:16pm

I thought the final excuse was that they “saw” the original documents, were unable to make xerox copies, and then re-created them “from memory” using a word processor.

Anyone who can insist that this document is from 1973 is Orly-Taitz-strength crazy.

5 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:08:25pm
Number 2 - no one had ever established that the documents were forged

The only factual part of that phrase is when he referred to it as Number 2.

6 erik_t  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:09:24pm

Why’s it so hard to say “I screwed up”?

Cognitive dissonance makes grumpy cat sad.

7 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:09:57pm

re: #4 Vicious Babushka

I thought the final excuse was that they “saw” the original documents, were unable to make xerox copies, and then re-created them “from memory” using a word processor.

Anyone who can insist that this document is from 1973 is Orly-Taitz-strength crazy.

If one is making excuses like that in journalism, why pretend to have sources at all?

8 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:15:22pm

re: #7 EPR-radar

If one is making excuses like that in journalism, why pretend to have sources at all?

Because outside of certain news organizations, “I pulled it out of my ass” does not remain a valid source of ‘facts’.

9 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:19:17pm

The Return of the Revenge of the Son of the Throbbing Memo, Part IV, Electric Boogaloo

10 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:21:30pm

I remember when Charles posted the first version of the gif.

Within a couple hours I had taken my copy of Microsoft word and made a gif using a fax driver. Mine wasn’t QUITE as close a match as his (the hinting for 200 dpi font probably made the lines thicker) but it was good enough to show a fake.

11 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:21:47pm

re: #8 klys

Because outside of certain news organizations, “I pulled it out of my ass” does not remain a valid source of ‘facts’.

Seeing a document, being unable to copy it, re-creating it, and then passing it off as a real document instead of a re-creation pretty much comes down to “pulling it out of my ass”.

I had missed this aspect of the story when it originally broke, and it significantly lowers my opinion of Rather/CBS news.

12 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:22:28pm

re: #11 EPR-radar

Seeing a document, being unable to copy it, re-creating it, and then passing it off as a real document instead of a re-creation pretty much comes down to “pulling it out of my ass”.

I had missed this aspect of the story when it originally broke, and it significantly lowers my opinion of Rather/CBS news.

Oh, I don’t disagree. I was mostly commenting why someone would pretend to have sources.

13 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:25:08pm

I can’t believe ‘Fake but Accurate’ isn’t dead and buried.

It smells dead.

14 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:31:42pm

re: #13 wrenchwench

I can’t believe ‘Fake but Accurate’ isn’t dead and buried.

It smells dead.

I actually understand the point of the line. They’re saying that Bush got away with stuff in the National Guard that the average grunt would have been in serious trouble for, and I think it’s probably true. There’s other evidence of it, for sure. But these docs were supposed to really blow the case open, because they were so specific and confirmed the AWOL allegations.

And they were fakes. No two ways about it. That’s why “fake but accurate” doesn’t cut it. Journalists like Rather have a responsibility to properly check their sources. The story collapses when they don’t, and that’s how it should be. You don’t get to say “fake but accurate” if you don’t do the work up front.

15 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:34:51pm

By the way, if you read the comments at Reddit you’ll see that Rather’s denial did not go over well at all. I was glad to see that the prevailing opinion was on the side of the facts, although there are a few people still trying to argue the docs were real.

16 Slap  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:40:32pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

By the way, if you read the comments at Reddit you’ll see that Rather’s denial did not go over well at all. I was glad to see that the prevailing opinion was on the side of the facts, although there are a few people still trying to argue the docs were real.

Wishful thinking, there….

What really torched my ass was that, at a time when the (so-called) MSM was under increasing criticism from the faux-balance crowd, formerly-respectable journo Rather and his CBS associates managed to provide a perfect example of the thing that Newscorp was railing against.

Way to go, Dan.

17 bratwurst  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:44:24pm

re: #10 stabby

I remember when Charles posted the first version of the gif.

What name where you posting under here at that time?

18 dragonfire1981  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:53:02pm

Not long after coming to America, I picked up a copy of Truth and Duty by Mary Mapes at a Dollar Tree. It was that book that first led me to LGF.

I haven’t read it in awhile but I do remember that she wrote at the end that despite everything that had happened she still felt that while the memos may not be real, the story behind them (Bush deserting the guard) was.

19 dragonfire1981  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:54:16pm

Also I can’t help but notice all the birther crap makes the W scandal seem like little more than a mild annoyance.

20 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:03:02pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

By the way, if you read the comments at Reddit you’ll see that Rather’s denial did not go over well at all. I was glad to see that the prevailing opinion was on the side of the facts, although there are a few people still trying to argue the docs were real.

Still getting any butthurt from the left over this?

21 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:05:11pm

re: #20 Gus

Still getting any butthurt from the left over this?

GORE WON FLORIDA!11!!!ty

22 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:06:30pm

re: #20 Gus

Still getting any butthurt from the left over this?

Not really, but it looks like the wingnuts have developed a new conspiracy theory about me: Dan Rather on Reddit: No one proved that Bush documents were forged « Hot Air Headlines

Fat Chuck Johnson found the GIF flashing on line from another souce, he took the idea from others and took the credit.

The guilt drove him mad now he has 20 , 20 something liberal retards who post commie drone stuff 24/7 and he has banned thousands of posters for now being OK with the CO2 fraud and not being members of the Obama Cult.

I think some of them hang out a a blog called the blogmogracy others at one called correspondence committee and the real bad boys from his purge at , the diary of daedalus, where a group of tech types have all the facts on line.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on February 8, 2013 at 5:20 PM

23 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:07:25pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

I actually understand the point of the line. They’re saying that Bush got away with stuff in the National Guard that the average grunt would have been in serious trouble for, and I think it’s probably true. There’s other evidence of it, for sure. But these docs were supposed to really blow the case open, because they were so specific and confirmed the AWOL allegations.

And they were fakes. No two ways about it. That’s why “fake but accurate” doesn’t cut it. Journalists like Rather have a responsibility to properly check their sources. The story collapses when they don’t, and that’s how it should be. You don’t get to say “fake but accurate” if you don’t do the work up front.

The twitter being who claims the ‘noise’ around the accuracy of the documents took away from the important message within them has it backwards. The fakeness of the documents distracted from the true part of the message. It never helps to try bolstering one’s message with phoney stuff, no matter how good and true the message is.

24 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:08:14pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Igloo White!

25 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:08:41pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Not really, but it looks like the wingnuts have developed a new conspiracy theory about me: Dan Rather on Reddit: No one proved that Bush documents were forged « Hot Air Headlines

That looks like a stalker who is pathetically trying to get hits on their failed blogs. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were Rodan himself who wrote that.

26 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:09:09pm

re: #24 wrenchwench

Igloo White!

Driven mad with guilt. Oh woe is me. The shame.

27 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:09:15pm

re: #25 RadicalModerate

That looks like a stalker who is pathetically trying to get hits on their failed blogs. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were Rodan himself who wrote that.

No, that’s TFK.

28 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:10:08pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Not really, but it looks like the wingnuts have developed a new conspiracy theory about me: Dan Rather on Reddit: No one proved that Bush documents were forged « Hot Air Headlines

Ha! The Charles Johnson Derangement Syndrome that never sleeps. They will take this to their graves. Cookoo!

29 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:10:27pm

Flattering that he thinks Gus and I are in our twenties, though.

(better add one of these)

/

30 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:12:25pm

re: #29 wrenchwench

Flattering that he thinks Gus and I are in our twenties, though.

Ha!

31 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:13:46pm

re: #29 wrenchwench

Everyone knows all LIEBRULS are in their 20s, mooching off mom and dad and too lazy to get a real jerb!!!!1

I get enough of being told I’ll grow out of this by my mother-in-law, thanks. It never seems to get through to her that her son didn’t.

32 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:18:29pm

Last year, Joe Hagan got waaaaay into the weeds on this story at Texas Monthly.

But the CBS documents that seem destined to haunt Rather are, and have always been, a red herring. The real story, assembled here for the first time in a single narrative, featuring new witnesses and never-reported details, is far more complex than what Rather and Mapes rushed onto the air in 2004. At the time, so much rancorous political gamesmanship surrounded Bush’s military history that it was impossible to report clearly (and Rather’s flawed report effectively ended further investigations). But with Bush out of office, this is no longer a problem. I’ve been reporting this story since it first broke, and today there is more cooperation and willingness to speak on the record than ever before. The picture that emerges is remarkable. Beyond the haze of elaborately revised fictions from both the political left and the political right is a bizarre account that has remained, until now, the great untold story of modern Texas politics. For 36 years, it made its way through the swamps of state government as it led up to the collision between two powerful Texans on the national stage.

Yeah, it looks like Bush Jr. really did skip out on his service and lied about it for years. The papers (obviously) should not have been used, however.

33 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:23:02pm

re: #17 bratwurst

It was my actual name. I’m not sure I really want to be posting that all over the internet these days, though I still use it on places where I’m registered by it.

34 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:23:22pm

re: #20 Gus

Still getting any butthurt from the left over this?

Actually, I did get into a little tiff last night with a drunk-tweeting Rebecca Schoenkopf (from Wonkette).

35 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:24:33pm

Speaking of not forged docs…here’s a painting by W - a self portrait (thankfully he didn’t paint his lower half with the embedded bull whip).

Image: shower6.jpg

36 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:25:42pm

re: #35 darthstar

Speaking of not forged docs…here’s a painting by W - a self portrait (thankfully he didn’t paint his lower half with the embedded bull whip).

Image: shower6.jpg

Actually, not a bad painting…sad to see an ex president so bored that all he does is paint nude self portraits though.

37 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:26:08pm

re: #36 darthstar

lol

38 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:27:20pm

Well, the commute home wasn’t too bad, though our train had a close call as the engine lost power for a bit.

But the brother in law came home to find no power out on LI - that’s LIPA/National Grid territory. 6-7 inches there, and it’s only going to get worse. Con Ed is reporting outages as well, and we’re not even in the heart of the storm with winds and snow coming down at 2-3 inches an hour.

It’s going to be a long night across the NYC metro (where many are still dealing with #Sandy damage, and now this storm).

39 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:27:47pm

re: #36 darthstar

Actually, not a bad painting…sad to see an ex president so bored that all he does is paint nude self portraits though.

I sense jealousy.
/

40 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:28:01pm

re: #34 Charles Johnson

Actually, I did get into a little tiff last night with a drunk-tweeting Rebecca Schoenkopf (from Wonkette).

I see.

41 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:28:24pm

re: #39 Varek Raith

I sense jealousy.
/

Yeah…my back isn’t that muscular looking…even in my fantasies.

42 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:28:50pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

No, that’s TFK.

Could be. The angry deranged style is familiar.

43 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:29:24pm
The morning before the broadcast was scheduled to air, CBS showed the memos to the White House for a response. Dan Bartlett was the network’s contact. Before Bartlett was interviewed, he emailed copies of the memos to Albert Lloyd, Bush’s longtime National Guard expert. In an interview in 2008, Lloyd told me he immediately recognized them as forgeries: “I looked at them and I said, ‘Don’t do a damned thing with these, because these are fake.’ ”

Bartlett, however, appears to have ignored Lloyd’s assessment. When asked by CBS whether he doubted the authenticity of the memos, Bartlett replied, “I’m not saying that at all,” adding that he only questioned the timing of their release. His interpretation of the memos, in fact, was that they “reaffirm what we’ve said all along.”

Oops.

44 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:31:05pm

I miss George W.

With his hiring Condi and Powel, his administration was the apex of a post-racist Republican party. Who would have guessed that his was the last time we’d see a non-racist party?

I have a horrible feeling that if Obama had run years earlier, that we would have seen the KKK/tea party GOP those years sooner, that even GW might have run as a white racist if that’s what his party wanted.

He was certainly willing to run a dirty campaign in Florida. Being clean wasn’t his thing, even if being earnest was.

45 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:32:32pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

Coud be. The angry deranged style is familiar.

It’s lacking commas (must have sold them to satt) but the Apache part means it’s TFK or someone posing as him. Or posing as who he posed as.

/too deep?

46 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:34:20pm

I wouldn’t lose a bit of sleep over who that nutjob was who’s posting over at HA. tfk or other. Not even worth the effort to figure out who.

47 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:34:21pm

You know, Dan Rather might still be at CBS if he had climbed down immediately and admitted he made a mistake. He created a whole lot of grief for himself.

48 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:35:13pm

re: #44 stabby

I miss George W.

With his hiring Condi and Powel, his administration was the apex of a post-racist Republican party. Who would have guessed that his was the last time we’d see a non-racist party?

I have a horrible feeling that if Obama had run years earlier, that we would have seen the KKK/tea party GOP those years sooner, that even GW might have run as a white racist if that’s what his party wanted.

He was certainly willing to run a dirty campaign in Florida. Being clean wasn’t his thing, even if being earnest was.

I think if Obama had run in 2004 he still might have been beat. Any dem would have to pander to the anti-war left and so close to 9-11 it might have gone over very well.

49 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:36:01pm

Boston blizzard cam (2 locations) for those that have friends/fam there.

[Link: www.boston.com…]

Getting pretty damn sketchy there. Stay safe East Coasters.

50 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:37:42pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

My question wasn’t “would Obama win” in any given year, it was “would George W have sold out to the racists if he was running against a black man, or (like the current situation) if he had lost to one”.

51 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:37:51pm

re: #49 efuseakay

It’s pretty damned nasty all around NYC metro.

Glad I’m home and just shoveled out so I could be plowed in. /

52 Mentis Fugit  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:37:59pm

re: #44 stabby

I have a horrible feeling that if Obama had run years earlier, that we would have seen the KKK/tea party GOP those years sooner, that even GW might have run as a white racist if that’s what his party wanted.

So what you’re saying is it’s all O’Bumbler’s fault that the GOP has been taken over by racists.

Or, as I will call them, “The KKKnights who say Ni-CLANG”.

53 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:38:53pm

re: #52 Mentis Fugit

:) yes, he’s the most divisive president in history

54 Strangeite  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:40:22pm

Wait.

There was no MS Word in 1973?!? But what did people bitch about on Twitter for destroying formatting when emailing documents between offices?

55 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:40:46pm

Wow, time warp! The Rather Kerner Conspiracy from back in the day when I was called Moonbat and banned. Now LGF has adopted most of the Moonbat positions that got me banned back then, and seamlessly disses Wingnuts instead. The “powerful people, for their own personal, ideological and partisan political reasons” that Rather is referring to are the powerful right wingers in society that you now rail against. The paradox is palpable!

56 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:41:22pm

Google
Racist GOP
About 37,900,000 results

57 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:41:28pm

Ooookay…

58 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:41:30pm

re: #51 lawhawk

It’s pretty damned nasty all around NYC metro.

Glad I’m home and just shoveled out so I could be plowed in. /

I was plowing out from our measily few inches yesterday here in the Chicago burbs… I stood out at the end of my driveway as the city plow went by. He lifted the plow for me so I wouldn’t have to start all over. What a nice fella. lol

59 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:42:31pm

re: #20 Gus 802

Still getting any butthurt from the left over this?

You were saying?

60 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:42:40pm

re: #55 They Once Called Me Moonbat

You used the word paradox wrong, but don’t sweat it, a lot of people do.

61 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:43:20pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

You were saying?

I’m a clairvoyant!

62 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:43:30pm

re: #32 celticdragon

Last year, Joe Hagan got waaaaay into the weeds on this story at Texas Monthly.

Yeah, it looks like Bush Jr. really did skip out on his service and lied about it for years. The papers (obviously) should not have been used, however.

I read that when it first came out last year. It is well worth a read, and before anyone pooh-poohs it as another slanted article, Texas Monthly is extremely well-regarded for its journalistic integrity, and has won more than a few national awards for it.

63 BongCrodny  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:43:38pm

re: #55 They Once Called Me Moonbat

I think they probably still call you moonbat.

64 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:43:54pm

re: #60 Obdicut
I know but I couldn’t bring myself to use “irony”

65 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:43:57pm

Obama’s Legal Netherworld

To be clear, the memo, technically a “white paper,” is correct in affirming that the United States is at war with al Qaeda. That conclusion rests on the actions of two presidents over four terms, Congress over the past decade, the Supreme Court, the U.N. Security Council, and NATO. It cannot be seriously disputed — although some liberal critics cling to the belief that al Qaeda is simply a criminal conspiracy, not a true belligerent, and that only law-enforcement actions, not military ones, may be taken against it. Given that the United States is at war, it follows that it may legitimately use lethal force against enemy combatants, regardless of their nationality. Enemy soldiers, even when not engaged in active hostilities, are legitimate targets during war. If that is true of enemy soldiers in uniform, it must be true also of al Qaeda operatives, who may not wear uniforms but who are the functional equivalent of regular troops. And just as a U.S. national serving in the German Army in 1944 or the Confederate Army in 1863 could be lawfully targeted and killed, so may a U.S. national performing a military function for al Qaeda.

Despite claims that the president is asserting a radically new and menacing authority, Obama’s decision to target al Qaeda operatives who are U.S. nationals is by no means unprecedented. The fact is that American presidents (and state governors) have lawfully deployed military force against citizens in insurrection, rebellion, or war against the United States from the beginning of the nation.

Coauthored by John Yoo so the moonbats may skip this one but the perspective is a bit unique. Worth a read.

66 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:44:04pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

It’s lacking commas (must have sold them to satt) but the Apache part means it’s TFK or someone posing as him. Or posing as who he posed as.

/too deep?

We went through this once. Check your DMs.

67 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:44:35pm

Facts: guaranteed to provoke an allergic reaction in the extremes regardless of which side you’re on!

68 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:44:46pm

re: #58 efuseakay

Yeah, that was nice of ‘em. I can’t really complain about the plowing though. I’d prefer them to come often than not at all.

69 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:45:10pm

re: #60 Obdicut

You used the word paradox wrong, but don’t sweat it, a lot of people do.

Quite the conundrum.

70 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:46:05pm

re: #55 They Once Called Me Moonbat

Welcome back, rehatchling.

71 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:46:24pm

re: #55 They Once Called Me Moonbat

Image: Bats-moon.JPG

72 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:46:31pm

re: #66 Gus

We went through this once. Check your DMs.

Thanks for the reminders!

73 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:47:18pm

re: #64 They Once Called Me Moonbat

I know but I couldn’t bring myself to use “irony”

Well, good, because that wouldn’t fit either.

Anyhoo, the memo’s-were-faked thingy was unusual by modern right-wing media standards because it was actually a real story.

74 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:48:28pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Obama’s Legal Netherworld

Coauthored by John Yoo so the moonbats may skip this one but the perspective is a bit unique. Worth a read.

Especially page 2 with supreme court rulings and precedents.

75 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:48:44pm

re: #69 b_sharp

Quite the conundrum.

You enigmatic cipher, you.

76 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:49:16pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Obama’s Legal Netherworld

Coauthored by John Yoo so the moonbats may skip this one but the perspective is a bit unique. Worth a read.

John Yoo is still a douche.

77 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:49:49pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Obama’s Legal Netherworld

Enemy soldiers, even when not engaged in active hostilities, are legitimate targets during war. If that is true of enemy soldiers in uniform, it must be true also of al Qaeda operatives, who may not wear uniforms but who are the functional equivalent of regular troops.

So does this mean they get treated as per the Geneva Conventions?

78 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:50:02pm

Is there any way to see the comments you’ve favorited? I’ve never found a way to do it.

79 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:50:24pm

re: #73 Obdicut
I appreciate anyone sticking up for the correct use of terms, but in my defense: Irony 3: one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

80 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:50:43pm
81 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:50:57pm

re: #78 stabby

Is there any way to see the comments you’ve favorited? I’ve never found a way to do it.

Look at the menu up in the box where you sign in and out.

82 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:50:58pm

re: #75 Obdicut

You enigmatic cipher, you.

Literally.

83 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:51:36pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Literally.

Sorry, I’m illiterate.

84 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:52:05pm

re: #81 wrenchwench

Thanks. I keep signed in all the time, so I never think to look there.

85 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:52:21pm

The real problem with Obama’s drone memo? I didn’t write it.


— John Yoo

86 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:56:13pm

re: #80 Lidane

Best comment from the comment section there:

When you are in the pocket of so many, sometimes you have to clean the slate to make all the appointments you promised them!

That being said, stripping out the public protection requirements is kind of the cherry on the jerk sundae.

87 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:57:50pm

I wish I could LGF and Twitter at the same time.

88 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:58:48pm

re: #79 They Once Called Me Moonbat

I appreciate anyone sticking up for the correct use of terms, but in my defense: Irony 3: one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

Yeah, there isn’t any contradiction, though. Unless change is somehow contradictory to you.

89 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:59:21pm

Boykin: FRC has ‘not made a big issue of trying to condemn homosexuals’

… don’t you *dare* accuse FRC of condemning gay people or making any of this personal. As you will hear the aforementioned Jerry Boykin tell fellow warrior Pat Robertson in this clip from today’s “700 Club,” all of the above constitutes nothing more than standing “on traditional Christian values”:

90 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:00:54pm

re: #87 b_sharp

I wish I could LGF and Twitter at the same time.

You have two hands, don’t you???

I’m writing an order and LGFing and twittering, although I’m doing a lousy job at all three.

91 jaunte  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:01:57pm

Global warming in action: World’s largest observed glacial calving

“…Scientists know that Greenland is melting as the earth warms. Studies show that the island has been shedding ice at an incredible pace of 142 billion tons per year—five times faster than the rate as recently as the 1990s. But big numbers in scientific studies about far-off lands don’t always resonate in the public mind, and somehow a substantial portion of the U.S. population still doesn’t believe that the earth is getting hotter.”
……
“The scale of the event isn’t evident until the end, when they impose an image of Manhattan on the ice at about 3:30. But do watch the entire video.”

92 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:02:06pm

Boston has two storms converging.
That can’t be good.

93 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:03:55pm

re: #88 Obdicut
The situation has contradictory qualities.

94 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:04:54pm

re: #93 They Once Called Me Moonbat

The situation has contradictory qualities.

How so?

95 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:06:00pm

re: #90 wrenchwench

You have two hands, don’t you???

I’m writing an order and LGFing and twittering, although I’m doing a lousy job at all three.

If I were on my desktop with its 3 monitors I could, but I’m on my laptop.

Hang on. I split FF into two and now have them side by side.

I’m rockin.

96 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:06:05pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Charles, I saw this link on the Reddit:

[Link: aheckofa.com…]

Have you seen it? It makes a somewhat convincing case that the memos aren’t out-and-out forgeries, but are possibly real.

I’m not trying to be a dick here, and I deride the mindless vituperation against you and others in the post, but it sounds technically possible those documents might be actual.

If you haven’t seen it before, please take a look. If you have seen it before, tell me why it’s wrong and why you reject it.

I just saw an in-depth analysis, and want to hear your opinion of it (whether it has traction or is all guff).

Thank you.

97 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:06:19pm

re: #77 Shvaughn

So does this mean they get treated as per the Geneva Conventions?

I think that’s a separate issue. Obama is opting to kill most of them in the field instead of capturing them. Of the few that have been brought to the US I don’t think any of them have been designated as enemy combatants or POW’s. The article does touch on the issue in regards to drone strikes.

Where the white paper commits serious error is in positing that the “due process” clause of the Fifth Amendment applies to al Qaeda operatives at large. In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (2004), the Supreme Court ruled that once suspected enemy combatants had been captured and detained, some measure of “process” was owed to them. But the court’s decision applied to enemy combatants only after their capture, but not before it. The distinction makes perfect sense. It would be shocking to give a captured enemy combatant a drumhead trial on charges of committing war crimes and then shoot him moments later. But minutes before being captured, that same enemy combatant would have been a lawful target for lethal fire. Enemies reduced to captivity do not pose anything like the degree of danger of those under arms and at large.

98 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:07:18pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

You know, Dan Rather might still be at CBS if he had climbed down immediately and admitted he made a mistake. He created a whole lot of grief for himself.

I’ll admit up front that I’m not 100% in the “forged document” camp - it’s closer to about 60%, mostly due to due-diligence issues that I had with the way CBS handled the story. They were far, far too quick to jump the gun to scoop everyone else in my opinion.

I’m mentioning this because I was a teen (and a hardcore computer geek) during the 1970s and in the two years’ worth of typing classes I took (specifically because of before-mentioned geekdom), our Junior High and High schools used IBM Selectric and Executive typewriters for their typing classes, and one thing that I do distinctly remember is the proportional-spacing features they employed.
The reason our classes used those versus the cheaper Royal or Brother typewriters was simple - they were as durable as hell, and standard typewriters tended to break - a lot - under the stress that fat-fingererd 14 and 15-year-olds are typical for subjecting to various devices.

Personally, I am of the opinion that if someone wanted to generate a believable fake document, especially at a news organization like CBS, it would have been trivial to find a suitable typewriter in one of their storage rooms.

99 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:07:32pm

re: #94 Obdicut

How so?

Seems to me he’s basically trying to say: Isn’t it ironic (dontcha think) that Charles criticizes the people he once considered allies with some of the same arguments he would have considered “moonbatty” back then.

100 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:08:15pm

re: #96 chadu

I’ve seen it, and it’s incredibly wrong.

101 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:08:17pm

A couple of weeks ago I started the snow blower using the rope instead of the electric start and my entire right arm has been painful ever since.

Is there a magic elixir that can remove age?

102 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:09:55pm

re: #101 b_sharp

A couple of weeks ago I started the snow blower using the rope instead of the electric start and my entire right arm has been painful ever since.

Is there a magic elixir that can remove age?

Yes.

103 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:10:03pm

re: #101 b_sharp

A couple of weeks ago I started the snow blower using the rope instead of the electric start and my entire right arm has been painful ever since.

Is there a magic elixir that can remove age?

Only the one where all your biological materials are revivified by maggots.

104 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:10:37pm

re: #98 RadicalModerate

It’s a lot more than the proportional spacing. The space between lines, the space between characters, the margins, the tab stops, the EXACT font match to New Times Roman — there’s really no doubt whatsoever that the docs were created in MS Word. No typewriter ever made could have produced an exact match like this.

105 Mattand  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:11:21pm

re: #99 Interesting Times

Seems to me he’s basically trying to say: Isn’t it ironic (dontcha think) that Charles criticizes the people he once considered allies with some of the same arguments he would have considered “moonbatty” back then.

People change.

For example, I was always thought that even though I don’t always agree with conservatives/Republicans, their views were as valid as mine even though they differed.

Then I started actually talking to them.

106 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:11:37pm

re: #103 wrenchwench

Only the one where all your biological materials are revivified by maggots.

That can wait.

107 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:12:10pm

Just for the record: Font Geek Bona Fides

108 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:12:19pm

re: #76 Gus

John Yoo is still a douche. war crime enabling hack who deserves to cool his heels for the next twenty years at The Hague

Just sayin’…

109 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:15:30pm

In addition to my background with fonts and font software, I’ve also owned several manual and electric typewriters, and took typing classes in high school. So I’m very familiar with the differences. There’s no way any typewriter available in the 1970s could ever have produced those documents, not even one of the newest high-end typesetting machines (which would definitely not have been available at a Texas Air National Guard base, to use for memos).

110 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:15:32pm

re: #99 Interesting Times

Seems to me he’s basically trying to say: Isn’t it ironic (dontcha think) that Charles criticizes the people he once considered allies with some of the same arguments he would have considered “moonbatty” back then.

Yes that’s part of it.

And major political positions have been abandoned/overturned wholesale, but the embrace of this kerning crusade remains steadfast.

111 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:15:37pm

re: #105 Mattand

People change.

Absolutely. Once upon a time I had views sympathetic to social conservatives (cough, gag). What woke me the fuck up out of that phase was Sept 11 and seeing what social conservatism/religious extremism ultimately leads to, especially when it’s infested with puritanical/misogynist beliefs.

112 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:16:25pm

re: #101 b_sharp

A couple of weeks ago I started the snow blower using the rope instead of the electric start and my entire right arm has been painful ever since.

Is there a magic elixir that can remove age?

Hemlock, if you’re a classicist.

113 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:17:04pm

re: #110 They Once Called Me Moonbat

The term for it is “facts.” It’s a “fact” that the documents are fakes. Your objection to having it pointed out, however, seems to be rooted in ideology.

114 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:18:14pm

re: #98 RadicalModerate

I’m mentioning this because I was a teen (and a hardcore computer geek) during the 1970s and in the two years’ worth of typing classes I took (specifically because of before-mentioned geekdom), our Junior High and High schools used IBM Selectric and Executive typewriters for their typing classes, and one thing that I do distinctly remember is the proportional-spacing features they employed.

A key part of the link I posted up-thread has to do with Selectric vs. Executive vs.Redactor.

115 dragonfire1981  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:19:24pm

This thread is like a time warp.

116 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:20:25pm

re: #115 dragonfire1981

This thread is like a time warp.

“Put your foot to the left…’

117 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:20:37pm

re: #115 dragonfire1981

This thread is like a time warp.

It’s just a jump to the left.

118 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:20:52pm

re: #116 Decatur Deb

“Put your foot to the left…’

Bugger, you beat me to it.

119 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:21:13pm

re: #118 b_sharp

Bugger, you beat me to it.

Me too.

120 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:21:38pm

Bugger, you beat me to it.

Me too.
re: #118 b_sharp

Bugger, you beat me to it.

But I think yours is more Transylvanian.

121 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:22:23pm

re: #100 Charles Johnson

Okay. Why?

It seems well-researched.

(Again, I’m not being a dick or challenging you on your beliefs; I just want to know what makes you say this.)

I’m ultimately ambivalent on the subject; as you said, son of an influential person got perks, no duh.

Personally, I’m pissed that children of influential people get perks, but that is a more general state of pissiness.

It’s just this one was brought into the public eye, and is interesting like a bug under a microscope, if you dig.

Also the confluence of power, media, influence, and Idiot America (to quote Charlie Pierce).

122 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:22:33pm

re: #117 darthstar

The whole point of my post is that the facts are what they are. It’s a verifiable fact that these documents were created in MS Word; has nothing to do with “right” or “left.”

123 makeitstop  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:22:40pm

Dunno if this has been posted, so…

Maine girls hoops players scolded after disturbing Nazi salute

Scolded??? Really? That’s the best you got?

124 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:23:39pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

the EXACT font match to New Times Roman

That link goes a long way to explain why the author didn’t think it was Times New Roman, btw.

125 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:24:14pm

re: #122 Charles Johnson

The whole point of my post is that the facts are what they are. It’s a verifiable fact that these documents were created in MS Word; has nothing to do with “right” or “left.”

Ideologues don’t understand the quest for accuracy.

126 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:25:26pm

re: #122 Charles Johnson

The whole point of my post is that the facts are what they are. It’s a verifiable fact that these documents were created in MS Word; has nothing to do with “right” or “left.”

I know…I was just getting in touch with my inner Frankenfurter.

127 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:25:30pm

re: #121 chadu

I’ve gone over these kinds of arguments so many times that it’s really hard for me to get into the whole thing once again. That page is flat out wrong on many basic points about typography, and his examples don’t even come close to matching the Killian memos.

128 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:25:49pm

re: #110 They Once Called Me Moonbat

I’m not a document expert, but I did work in publishing for a time, and kerning is a very real thing. Times New Roman in Microsoft Word has a particular kerning at its default level— you can actually change the kerning, which is a cool typographical trick if you really need to squeeze a word into a space.

To have the particular kerning of Times New Roman, Microsoft Word match a random typewritten document from the early 1970s is wildly improbable.

I can’t really tell if you’re trying to say the memo-forgery thing isn’t true or if you’re just kind of generally bitching.

129 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:25:55pm

re: #124 chadu

That link goes a long way to explain why the author didn’t think it was Times New Roman, btw.

He’s wrong. Sorry, I don’t know what else to tell you.

130 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:26:20pm

re: #107 Charles Johnson

Oh, cool! I am but a font-geek hatchling!

What’s the best intro book for fontingness?

(I work, essentially, as a technical editor, and I’ve revised the styles and fonts for our documents numerous times, and it’s got so I can ID very similar but different fonts by eye.)

Very cool, mang.

131 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:26:58pm

Charles, do you have any theories on who might have forged the documents and why?

132 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:27:19pm

re: #122 Charles Johnson

The whole point of my post is that the facts are what they are. It’s a verifiable fact that these documents were created in MS Word; has nothing to do with “right” or “left.”

C’mon. Yes it does. I’m sure you’ve touched on this before, but who did the forgery, if it was a forgery? Surely you’ve also tracked that down.

133 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:27:41pm

Gotta run out for something - back in a few minutes.

134 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:27:46pm

re: #121 chadu

It’s laid out really terribly, and they are avoiding the main point. Even if all these features existed on various machines, even if they all existed on the same machine, the document is an exact match to the particular kerning of Microsoft Word Times New Roman default kerning.

135 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:27:47pm

re: #127 Charles Johnson

Ok. I can see why you have legitimate objections to the article.

As I said, I am just a font-hatchling; I defer to those with actual knowledge and experience.

136 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:33:06pm

It’s good to see the Throbbing Memo back on the front page. It’s taking me back to when I first arrived at LGF.

137 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:35:17pm

re: #136 NJDhockeyfan

It’s good to see the Throbbing Memo back on the front page. It’s taking me back to when I first arrived at LGF.

You just like to see the word “throbbing” in type!!

138 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:36:06pm

re: #133 Charles Johnson

No problems.

In situations such as this, I tend to go with professionals over laymen. You are the professional; the blog writer is the layman.

Thus, I believe you 90% (and disbelieve you 10%) because:

The Universe is weird.
10% is below the 27% crazyification factor.

So, I think that makes me a crank instead of a nut. ;)

EDITED: What’s the danged OL/UL code for this?

139 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:36:17pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

You just like to see the word “throbbing” in type!!

Doesn’t everybody?

140 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:39:51pm

Here’s a new twist: Muslim extremist plans terrorist attack to frame OWS


Man arrested in alleged bomb plot at Calif. bank

FBI agents arrested Matthew Aaron Llaneza, 28, Thursday night near a Bank of America branch in Oakland as part of a sting operation.

Llaneza had minutes earlier parked an SUV in front of the bank believing the vehicle contained an explosive rigged to detonate from a cellphone command, authorities said. Llaneza was arrested as he stood nearby and tried to detonate the device with a cellphone.

The FBI says Llaneza expressed support for the Taliban and had hoped the bombing would be blamed on anti-government activists and would somehow spark a civil war after a severe government crackdown. The FBI said Llaneza expressed a desire to travel to Afghanistan to train Taliban fighters.

141 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:40:03pm

re: #138 chadu

I think that makes me a crank instead of a nut. ;)
A mere 140+/- posts so far, the jury is still out!

142 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:41:45pm

re: #141 sattv4u2

Heh.

Good one.

“I am but an egg hatchling…”

143 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:41:45pm

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Here’s a new twist: Muslim extremist plans terrorist attack to frame OWS
Man arrested in alleged bomb plot at Calif. bank

Man arrested in alleged bomb plot at Calif. bank

Llaneza had minutes earlier parked an SUV in front of the bank

Wonder if it’s the same bank that loaned him the money for the SUV!!!

//

144 freetoken  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:43:00pm

Sex sells, I guess:

TURKISH CREATIONIST TV - USING SEX APPEAL TO SELL ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM

Four heavily made-up, peroxide blondes are sitting on a talk show set. In broken German, they’re trying to prove that Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong.

It’s a particularly bizarre bit of religious propaganda – but since 2011 creationist theories have been packaged this way for Western viewers and broadcast by the Turkish satellite television station A9 TV in Turkish but also English, French, German, Russian and Azerbaijani.

The ladies sit in front of walls covered with flashy wallpaper and paintings of Turkish port cities and read their “conversation” from the teleprompter. Thus, moderator Merve – pink lipstick, black and yellow eye shadow – may explain for example that “we all know that there are people who say that every living thing on this earth, in the universe, the stars, mountains, trees, fish, insects, birds, just happen to be here by chance.” Her colleagues then kick in with monologues about “deceitful Darwinists” whose lies inshallah (“God willing”) shall be revealed for what they are.

[…]

145 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:43:54pm

re: #143 sattv4u2

Llaneza had minutes earlier parked an SUV in front of the bank

Wonder if it’s the same bank that loaned him the money for the SUV!!!

//

I hope he had enough sense to not make too many payments before attempting to detonate it.

146 freetoken  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:44:23pm

An overly-meek defense of the government’s actions offered up by Forbes writer Peter Reilly:

Is IRS Persecuting Kent Hovind For Creationism ?

147 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:44:23pm

I never once considered myself a conservative or a right winger.

148 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:44:27pm

re: #139 b_sharp

Doesn’t everybody?

Depends on what’s throbbing. Thumbs, not so much.

149 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:45:05pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

I hope he had enough sense to not make too many payments before attempting to detonate it.

That, or this was THE MOST elaborate car insurance /cash in scam in history!!
//

150 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:45:29pm

re: #148 Decatur Deb

Depends on what’s throbbing. Thumbs, not so much.

Wifey let you use a hammer again, did she??

151 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:45:42pm

re: #138 chadu

To do lists, you start by: < ul > or < ol > (without the spaces, obviously). Then each item on the list gets < li > at the start and < /li > at the end. Then you close the whole list off with a < /ul > or < /ol >, depending on which you started with.

So then it:

looks
like
this

for an unordered list.

152 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:45:48pm

Crank vs. nut: I’m still sad that people don’t want to talk about this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

But then I remember:

153 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:45:54pm

re: #147 Gus

I never once considered myself a conservative or a right winger.

I liked Ike, until I was 14.

154 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:46:24pm

re: #148 Decatur Deb

Depends on what’s throbbing. Thumbs, not so much.

While fixing the front diff on my Jeep I smashed my thumb with a 3lb sledge, split it like a grape.

But it didn’t throb.

155 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:46:41pm

re: #147 Gus

I never once considered myself a conservative or a right winger.

Thats nice

I never once considered myself a princess nor the Queen Of The May!!

((well,, truth be told,, there was that one instance decades ago at band camp!!)))

156 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:46:47pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

Wifey let you use a hammer again, did she??

She needed a laugh.

157 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:47:32pm

re: #154 b_sharp

While fixing the front diff on my Jeep I smashed my thumb with a 3lb sledge, split it like a grape.

But it didn’t throb.

I once crushed my thumb in an elliptical machine mechanism while we were trying to figure out what was causing it to catch. That did throb.

158 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:47:45pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

Wifey let you use a hammer again, did she??

Biting the tongue is the hardest thing that happens on a pious Habitat build.

159 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:47:58pm

re: #152 chadu

Crank vs. nut: I’m still sad that people don’t want to talk about this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

But then I remember:

[Embedded content]

Me’thinks the jury is about to come to a verdict!!

160 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:48:17pm

re: #155 sattv4u2

Thats nice

I never once considered myself a princess nor the Queen Of The May!!

((well,, truth be told,, there was that one instance decades ago at band camp!!)))

Listen princess, you really should come clean.

161 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:49:17pm

re: #157 klys

I once crushed my thumb in an elliptical machine mechanism while we were trying to figure out what was causing it to catch. That did throb.

Did that fix the machine?

162 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:49:19pm

re: #160 b_sharp

Listen princess, you really should come clean.

Tu tu!

(rhymes with You Too!!)

163 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:49:43pm

re: #160 b_sharp

Listen princess, you really should come clean.

He was young, and he needed the money to get through school.

164 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:49:57pm

re: #161 b_sharp

Did that fix the machine?

Yes

Bad part, whenever someone wants to use the machine he has to volunteer his thumb again!!

165 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:50:13pm

re: #162 sattv4u2

Tu tu!

(rhymes with You Too!!)

Oh poo poo.

(rhymes with poo poo)

166 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:50:22pm

re: #151 klys

Yeah, I’m not seeing your ul bullets.

167 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:50:28pm

re: #163 Decatur Deb

He was young, and he needed the money to get through school.

After seeing how much I could make, I said the hell wif school

168 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:50:34pm

re: #161 b_sharp

Did that fix the machine?

I wish I could say yes, but it didn’t. We had a repairman come out (it was new and under warranty) and I figured out what was wrong in the process of looking over his shoulder and we got it fixed that way. I was just grateful to never have to open that beast up again (and I made my husband take that end when we moved it out to the bonus room after getting that redone).

169 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:51:28pm

re: #163 Decatur Deb

He was young, and he needed the money to get through school.

He tried to sell his body, but people weren’t buying used.

170 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:51:38pm

re: #167 sattv4u2

After seeing how much I could make, I said the hell wif school

That’s spelled ‘skool’, now in honor of CCA.

171 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:51:39pm

re: #155 sattv4u2

Thats nice

I never once considered myself a princess nor the Queen Of The May!!

((well,, truth be told,, there was that one instance decades ago at band camp!!)))

I did consider myself the Queen of England once.

//

172 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:52:02pm

re: #163 Decatur Deb

He was young, and he needed the money to get through school.

That’s what every stripper says…
/

173 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:52:05pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

Yes

Bad part, whenever someone wants to use the machine he has to volunteer his thumb again!!

A pair of bolt cutters could have solved that.

174 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:52:21pm

re: #166 chadu

Yeah, I’m not seeing your ul bullets.

ul and ol code will only work in Pages, not comments. You’ll just have to do it

* the
* low
* tech
* way

175 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:52:27pm

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Here’s a new twist: Muslim extremist plans terrorist attack to frame OWS

Man arrested in alleged bomb plot at Calif. bank

Not OWS, right-wingers.

From the FBI:

Llaneza’s stated goal was to trigger a governmental crackdown, which he expected would trigger a right-wing counter-response against the government followed by, he hoped, civil war.

176 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:52:51pm

re: #171 Gus

I did consider myself the Queen of England once.

//

Did you liberate the Malvinas?

177 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:53:11pm

re: #171 Gus

I did consider myself the Queen of England once.

//

Did you jump out of a helicopter?

178 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:53:33pm

re: #174 Interesting Times

ul and ol code will only work in Pages, not comments. You’ll just have to do it

* the
* low
* tech
* way

That explains it. I am still relatively new, I just know old HTML code.

179 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:54:20pm

re: #171 Gus

I did consider myself the Queen of England once.

//

We consider you a queen often!!

//

180 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:55:10pm

re: #176 Decatur Deb

Did you liberate the Malvinas?

I did. I went in their screaming, “las Malvinas son nuestras!” while removing my mask revealing my true identity of a King Gus the Peronist Progressive!!

You could say I was a Trojan queen.

//

181 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:55:12pm
182 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:55:34pm

re: #159 sattv4u2

Har dee har har. ;)

183 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:56:05pm

re: #180 Gus

You could say I was a Trojan queen.

Okay.
You were a Trojan queen!

184 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:56:28pm

re: #180 Gus

I did. I went in their screaming, “las Malvinas son nuestras!” while removing my mask revealing my true identity of a King Gus the Peronist Progressive!!

You could say I was a Trojan queen.

//

I’ll just call you Hecuba, then.

185 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:56:29pm

re: #182 chadu

Har dee har har. ;)

Here comes the foreman with a piece of paper!!!

186 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:57:04pm

re: #174 Interesting Times

Ah!

Dangit.

Hell, I won’t edit the comment, then.

(The Man is keeping me down!)

;)

187 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:57:28pm

No more Vicodin. Tired.

188 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:58:09pm

re: #187 Gus

No more Vicodin. Tired.

Leg healing?

189 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:58:46pm

re: #179 sattv4u2

This is a Queen:

190 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:59:00pm

re: #188 Decatur Deb

Leg healing?

First morning were it hasn’t hurt. It’s been semi OK all day.

191 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:59:10pm

re: #188 Decatur Deb

Leg healing?

Shouldn’t that read “Leg healing, Your Highness” ???

192 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:59:36pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

Shouldn’t that read “Leg healing, Your Highness” ???

I’m not high. //

193 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:59:44pm

re: #190 Gus

First morning were it hasn’t hurt. It’s been semi OK all day.

Shit. ‘Semi-OK’ is my life’s goal.

194 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:00:59pm

re: #193 Decatur Deb

Shit. ‘Semi-OK’ is my life’s goal.

“Yeah, woke up this morning and instead of my knee, back, and neck hurting it was just the knee and back.”

195 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:01:09pm

re: #193 Decatur Deb

Shit. ‘Semi-OK’ is my life’s goal.

I’d settle for two days of “eh”

196 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:02:26pm

re: #195 sattv4u2

I’d settle for two days of “eh”

We’re doing it wrong. We’re supposed to be out hunting and gathering and leaving a nice corpse.

197 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:03:40pm

re: #196 Decatur Deb

We’re doing it wrong. We’re supposed to be out hunting and gathering and leaving a nice corpse.

At our age and condition, we’re lucky they’re not setting us adrift on an ice berg !!

198 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:04:33pm

re: #128 Obdicut

In terms of Der Kerning I never had a strong opinion. It’s just weird to see this subject resurrected, from back in the days when this site slammed, insulted, and mocked people for the exact positions this site now clings to (while slamming and mocking its former allies—or should I say Axis?). Don’t get me wrong, it’s a remarkable change (my brother went through a similar one) and I am glad LGF left the dark side. But there are elements of the same tunnel-vision going on, the same stridency, and I couldn’t let it go without comment.

199 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:04:35pm

re: #187 Gus

No more Vicodin. Tired.

Take a break and sleep if you can. Does elevating the foot help?

200 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:04:44pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

At our age and condition, we’re lucky they’re not setting us adrift on an ice berg !!

Purina Polar Bear Chow.

201 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:05:19pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

At our age and condition, we’re lucky they’re not setting us adrift on an ice berg !!

Off to the tar pits with ya!

///

202 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:06:05pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

At our age and condition, we’re lucky they’re not setting us adrift on an ice berg !!

My wife tried, but the wind brought me back to shore.

203 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:06:30pm

re: #199 b_sharp

Take a break and sleep if you can. Does elevating the foot help?

Depends where. Right now I have it up on the table and it’s OK. In “bed” it’s hard to get the freaking thing up on something right. Oh heck, I never sleep on my back. The only I could do that right would be I was in a hospital with this super nice adjustable bed.

204 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:06:34pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

205 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:07:23pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

What’s unfortunate is most supporters of the forgery focus on the prop spacing saying “But My Selectric has proportional Spacing.”

I worked at early Adobe, putting Postscript into printers, so I’ve scrutinized hundreds of fonts and letter spacing algorithms. But you don’t need to know anything about this to see what makes this a fraud. The fact is: it’s impossibly unlikely that Microsoft Word’s line-breaking would match a typists.

The small jitter that’s from the fake being optically re-photocopied a dozen times or so is irrelevant. The gross characteristics of where each line breaks should be enough to prove with certainty that this document was produced with Microsoft Word.

206 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:07:52pm

re: #202 b_sharp

My wife tried, but the wind brought me back to shore.

Anthros used to say Eskimos were so attuned to their environment they had 40 subtle words for ‘ice’. Freepers have 50 words for ‘derp’.

207 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:09:56pm

re: #206 Decatur Deb

Anthros used to say Eskimos were so attuned to their environment they had 40 subtle words for ‘ice’. Freepers have 50 words for ‘derp’.

I thought it was genetic.

208 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:10:55pm

re: #205 ReamWorks SKG

Of course, with the kind of typewriter a National Guard secretary would have, you’d either have to manually shove the carriage back to the left at the end of a line, or press a button when you were at the end of a line on an electric. (That’s where “carriage return” comes from.)

In these documents the line breaks are exactly the same as you get with MS Word’s auto-wrap feature.

209 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:11:54pm

re: #207 b_sharp

I thought it was genetic.

Do you have Saturday mail delivery in Canada?

210 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:11:55pm

Do you mind if I snore?

211 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:12:50pm

re: #209 Gus

Do you have Saturday mail delivery in Canada?

No, eh.

212 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:13:00pm

re: #209 Gus

Do you have Saturday mail delivery in Canada?

Yes, and a bear shits in the forest.

213 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:13:33pm

re: #211 Interesting Times

No, eh.

Don’t be a hoser, eh.

214 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:14:03pm

re: #211 Interesting Times

No, eh.

re: #212 b_sharp

Yes, and a bear shits in the forest.

Which is it?

215 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:14:11pm

re: #212 b_sharp

Yes, and a bear shits in the forest.

Except polar bears. In Canada, polar bear is shitting you.

216 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:14:37pm
217 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:15:58pm

re: #198 They Once Called Me Moonbat

And oddly enough, I still feel exactly the same about these fake documents.

That should give you a clue that my original motive wasn’t ideological in the first place.

As for who created them, I don’t know, and I don’t have the resources to do the kind of investigation necessary to settle the matter.

It’s always been a mystery why the media did not follow up, uncover the rest of this forgery plot, and find out why they were created in the first place - possibly because it would have made CBS News’s editorial oversight look really bad, which it was.

218 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:16:30pm

re: #49 efuseakay

Boston blizzard cam (2 locations) for those that have friends/fam there.

[Link: www.boston.com…]

Getting pretty damn sketchy there. Stay safe East Coasters.

Oh well… Cams covered in slush.

219 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:16:47pm

re: #208 Charles Johnson

Leaving the veracity of the evidence aside (oy veh!), the verissimilitude of the charges doesn’t seem wrong. Or particularly outre for the scion of an influential family in the late 60s/early 70s.

It definitely happened all over the place.

I think the urge to nail GWB on this obvious situation was to call out him (because he was a douche) and others below the radar.

I also think that this was an attempt to gin up commensurate outrage versus Kerry’s swiftboating, and it just didn’t work out.

(10% crank.)

220 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:17:05pm

I’m always amazed that being suspended from a free account at LGF that’s not even under a real name can lead to such long-lasting trauma.

221 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:17:48pm

re: #208 Charles Johnson

Exactly! And the line breaks are enough to prove this is a fraud. There’s no way that a secretary pressing the carriage return button or dragging the carriage lever would EXACTLY MATCH how Microsoft word did it.

222 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:18:36pm

re: #221 ReamWorks SKG

Exactly! And the line breaks are enough to prove this is a fraud. There’s no way that a secretary pressing the carriage return button or dragging the carriage lever would EXACTLY MATCH how Microsoft word did it.

But Aliens!

223 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:19:08pm

re: #198 They Once Called Me Moonbat

In terms of Der Kerning I never had a strong opinion. It’s just weird to see this subject resurrected, from back in the days when this site slammed, insulted, and mocked people for the exact positions this site now clings to (while slamming and mocking its former allies—or should I say Axis?). Don’t get me wrong, it’s a remarkable change (my brother went through a similar one) and I am glad LGF left the dark side. But there are elements of the same tunnel-vision going on, the same stridency, and I couldn’t let it go without comment.

You’re not making a hell of a lot of sense. What are the elements of tunnel-vision going on now, please?

224 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:20:21pm

re: #217 Charles Johnson

And oddly enough, I still feel exactly the same about these fake documents.

That should give you a clue that my original motive wasn’t ideological in the first place.

As for who created them, I don’t know, and I don’t have the resources to do the kind of investigation necessary to settle the matter.

It’s always been a mystery why the media did not follow up, uncover the rest of this forgery plot, and find out why they were created in the first place - possibly because it would have made CBS News’s editorial oversight look really bad, which it was.

I’ve always thought that having ‘CYA’ as the subject line for a supposedly ass-covering memo was sufficient evidence to view it as a forgery. Nobody would do that.

Throbbing memo is also much more than enough, so there’s an embarrassment of riches.

225 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:20:49pm

re: #198 They Once Called Me Moonbat

My advice if you plan on sticking around is to change that name you’re using.

226 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:24:01pm

re: #220 Charles Johnson

Just remember that Mr. Irrelevant. /

227 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:24:32pm

re: #220 Charles Johnson

Unrelated to what you’re talking about, but thank you, Charles, for entertaining our discussion.

Big points from me; I must go up-ding.

228 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:25:11pm

OMG, I was just explain the Throbbing Memo to a young friend of mine today.

How is everyone?

229 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:26:03pm

re: #217 Charles Johnson

But surely you’ve thought it through, right? Who do you think did the forgery? Why did they do it?

230 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:28:03pm

re: #214 Gus

re: #212 b_sharp

Which is it?

From Canada Post’s website:

“Business Day” means a day other than Saturday, Sunday, a statutory holiday and any day normally observed as a holiday by Canada Post.

They only deliver mail on “business days”.

231 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:29:04pm

Any other Rathergate lizards still around??

232 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:29:28pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Not really, but it looks like the wingnuts have developed a new conspiracy theory about me: Dan Rather on Reddit: No one proved that Bush documents were forged « Hot Air Headlines

Ah, I see you are becoming relevant again, Charles.

You really should be more careful!

233 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:31:49pm

re: #229 They Once Called Me Moonbat

Rather and Mary Mapes got the documents from a former National Guard officer, Bill Burkett, and he was evasive about where he got them. It was never settled, but Burkett had a serious grudge against G.W. Bush, and the most likely scenario is that he made the documents himself and pawned them off on Mapes.

I tend not to believe conspiracy theories, like the one that they were planted to discredit Dan Rather; Occam’s Razor says it was most likely a series of dumb fuckups and venal human behavior, and people blinded by ambition who didn’t do their jobs.

234 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:35:02pm

re: #230 Interesting Times

From Canada Post’s website:

They only deliver mail on “business days”.

Hookers and preachers work weekends.

235 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:35:09pm

re: #231 Mich-again

Any other Rathergate lizards still around??

ME!!!! MEEE!!!!MMMEEE!!!

(morphing into Horschack from Welcome Back Kotter)

236 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:35:24pm
237 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:35:34pm

People make me sick.

238 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:36:22pm

re: #237 Gus

People make me sick.

Chew well and eat more slowly.

239 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:36:59pm

re: #233 Charles Johnson

What about this:

David Van Os, Burkett’s lawyer, responded with the hypothetical that someone may have reconstructed documents that the preparer believed existed in 1972 or 1973

?

240 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:36:59pm

Wait Watchers

While creating an image for my Something to Weigh series, I decided to photograph myself sitting alone on the Times Square stairs to capture my solitude in a busy crowd.

After developing the film, I noticed that a man was standing behind me being photographed by an attractive blonde woman. Rather than pose for her camera, he was sneering at me behind my back. Five minutes later and at another location, another man turns his back to gawk at me while I am photographing myself sitting at a café table.

I have always been aware of people making faces, commenting and laughing at me about my size. I now reverse the gaze and record their reactions to me while I perform mundane tasks in public spaces. I seek out spaces that are visually interesting and geographically diverse. I try to place myself in compositions that contain feminine icons or advertisements.

Otherwise, I position myself and the camera in a pool of people…and wait.

241 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:37:18pm

I miss the IBM Selectric. It was an awesome machine.

Mom was given hers when she retired because I think it was the only one left in the company —and she sold it at a garage sale when they moved.

I am still sooooo pissed.

242 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:37:35pm

re: #220 Charles Johnson

I’m always amazed that being suspended from a free account at LGF that’s not even under a real name can lead to such long-lasting trauma.

I found out about LGF and the throbbing memo and I was following links on the net. I was not able to register till 2005 here. That gave me a chance to learn the hood before posting..
Ah memories.. It was a slow day at work and it was June.. The swimming pool was awaiting me and the Hot tub was fired up and I said effen it..I was just reading blogs and went to shut down and head home and Charles opened registration at that very moment. It was great! I registered and still shut up..My first post sitting with my legs in the pool..It was funny and rude.
I asked Fat Veggie Bastard..How the hell he could be a veggie and be fat?
LOL.. It was a fun night.. I love Veggie…

243 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:38:43pm

re: #80 Lidane

A bill that passed the state senate this week would allow the new Republican governor to replace all the regulators.

What the right wing doesn’t seem to understand is that businesses really don’t like it when regulations change nilly willy. If Company A just invested in millions in facility upgrades in order to reduce emissions and comply with regulations, and a new Governor comes in and decides to toss out those regulations and let polluters keep on polluting, then Company A just wasted their capital and now they won’t be able to compete with the other companies that didn’t invest in the upgrades so their prospects for being profitable go down the toilet.

Republicans do not understand this. Its a mantra. Regulations are bad bad bad!

244 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:39:24pm

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

Not OWS, right-wingers.

From the FBI:

Interesting yet stupid. Bombing a bank in Oakland would be a real stretch to blame on wingnuts. His plan sucked on so many levels.

245 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:39:28pm

re: #241 FemNaziBitch

I miss the IBM Selectric. It was an awesome machine.

Mom was given hers when she retired because I think it was the only one left in the company —and she sold it at a garage sale when they moved.

I am still sooooo pissed.

I have a Selectric in my garage right now, the one I owned as a kid. The mechanism is totally frozen, though. Doesn’t work at all. I actually called a shop to see if it could be repaired once, and the answer was basically no, unless I had a lot of money to spend on it.

246 anonymous gun expert  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:40:25pm

re: #243 Mich-again

What the right wing doesn’t seem to understand is that businesses really don’t like it when regulations change nilly willy. If Company A just invested in millions in facility upgrades in order to reduce emissions and comply with regulations, and a new Governor comes in and decides to toss out those regulations and let polluters keep on polluting, then Company A just wasted their capital and now they won’t be able to compete with the other companies that didn’t invest in the upgrades so their prospects for being profitable go down the toilet.

Republicans do not understand this. Its a mantra. Regulations are bad bad bad!

Plus people just love to breath dirty air and drink polluted water.

247 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:40:32pm

re: #241 FemNaziBitch

I miss the IBM Selectric. It was an awesome machine.

Mom was given hers when she retired because I think it was the only one left in the company —and she sold it at a garage sale when they moved.

I am still sooooo pissed.

Sold one for a friend at a yard sale—$3.

(They had a unique acoustic characteristic that made them unacceptable for typing classified documents.)

248 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:41:18pm

re: #245 Charles Johnson

I used a Selectrics in my typing classes after HS.

249 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:41:51pm

re: #247 Decatur Deb
(They had a unique acoustic characteristic that made them unacceptable for typing classified documents.)

Do tell!

250 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:44:12pm

I wish I remember what the analog typewriter I got on the birthday before I went to HS was. Used that thru sophomore, junior, and senior year, then it was college and it was all computers.

251 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:46:17pm

re: #246 anonymous gun expert

Plus people just love to breath dirty air and drink polluted water.

Businesses need stability in laws and regulations so that they can plan major capital projects in their facilities that will take years to implement. Crazy talk from politicians will scare more businesses away than it will attract.

252 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:48:55pm
253 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:50:29pm

re: #221 ReamWorks SKG

Exactly! And the line breaks are enough to prove this is a fraud. There’s no way that a secretary pressing the carriage return button or dragging the carriage lever would EXACTLY MATCH how Microsoft word did it.

Even more telling, if you try to recreate that August 1973 document with some other word processing program, using the same fonts, it’s nearly impossible to get a close match. I speak from experience, because I tried to do exactly that: Another CBS Document Experiment.

Each word processing application has its own way of rendering documents. Even if you set all the margins and tab stops the same, and use the same fonts, you’ll see differences between the different apps. The exact appearance of a final printed document is like a fingerprint — unique to the program that created it.

254 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:51:57pm

re: #239 They Once Called Me Moonbat

Sounds like a lawyer’s attempt at a lame excuse.

255 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:54:05pm

YUP

256 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:54:07pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

It’s strange how this whole thing has become a kind of “Boy Who Cried Wolf” in reverse - the first time the rightwing blogosphere (of which you were a part back then) said an item was fake, it really was fake. But on every occasion since, the accusations have been so utterly laughable (*cough* birth certificate LAYERZ *cough*), no one with any sense takes them seriously.

257 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:54:47pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

Sounds like a lawyer’s attempt at a lame excuse.

Sounds like something a birther would say too.

258 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:55:00pm

Maybe Dan Rather is still running that line of BS because its the only reason anyone would ever stop to talk about him anymore ? Any publicity is good publicity.

259 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:55:47pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

Sounds like a lawyer’s attempt at a lame excuse.

And it is still FRAUD.

“may have reconstructed documents”

WTF is that other than fraud?

260 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:55:47pm

“Well this document might be something that someone reconstructed which they thought they typed 32 years ago.”

//

261 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:56:44pm

re: #258 Mich-again

Maybe Dan Rather is still running that line of BS because its the only reason anyone would ever stop to talk about him anymore ? Any publicity is good publicity.

Old man trying to control his biography.

262 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:56:48pm

re: #260 Gus

It’s the kind of thing a lawyer says when they have nothing.

263 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:57:31pm

re: #262 Charles Johnson

It’s the kind of thing a lawyer says when they have nothing.

throws spaghetti against the wall in hopes that some will stick.

264 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:58:27pm

The lesson I personally take away from this whole Rathergate mess is that it’s far better to acknowledge and admit mistakes and deal with the fallout from that, than to go down in flames pathetically denying something that’s obviously true.

265 Bubblehead II  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:59:13pm

Charles/Lizard Nation trying to uplaod a picture to my library. Safari totally craps out when I attempt to. IE 8 lets me select the file, but then all I get is the spinning wheel of boredom. Am I at my limit? The file is 129 KB.

Any suggestions?

266 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 5:59:32pm

re: #264 Charles Johnson

The lesson I personally take away from this whole Rathergate mess is that it’s far better to acknowledge and admit mistakes and deal with the fallout from that, than to go down in flames pathetically denying something that’s obviously true.

I thought the Country learned that lesson from Watergate. no?

267 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:00:00pm

re: #265 Bubblehead II

Charles/Lizard Nation trying to uplaod a picture to my library. Safari totally craps out when I attempt to. IE 8 lets me select the file, but then all I get is the spinning wheel of boredom. Am I at my limit? The file is 129 KB.

Any suggestions?

,jpg works best. Photoshop files don’t seem to get thru.

If that helps.

268 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:00:36pm

re: #138 chadu

I haven’t bothered to read the whole thread, but at the point I’m responding you are soooooo wrong.

It takes, well to be honest it took me something like 10 minutes to perfectly match the document.

MS word default settings.
Times New Roman, as automatically installed on Windows 2000.
Default tab positions.

Just type and and print to an electronic document and viola, a perfect match.

It’s a fucking proof to some astronomical probability level.

There is NO fucking way that the document didn’t come out of Microsoft Word because a million little points match with no adjustment. Perfect kerning choices. Each fucking letter is spaced right.

It’s not that “it’s impossible for 70 technology to print a document like this” it’s that it matches at thousands of arbitrary choices without adjustment in a way that nothing would EXCEPT WHAT IT CAME FROM.

269 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:01:20pm

re: #263 FemNaziBitch

throws spaghetti against the wall in hopes that some will stick.

It is refreshing when the judge gets into the game and cuts off all of the free-floating BS.

The best recent example I can think of is the marriage cases in CA, where the judge forced the anti-equality side to deal with only their (nonexistent) evidence, as opposed to the endless opinion/blather they wanted to present as evidence.

270 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:01:34pm

re: #266 FemNaziBitch

I thought the Country learned that lesson from Watergate. no?

What most people took away from that one was ‘don’t get caught’.

271 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:02:35pm

re: #270 wrenchwench

What most people took away from that one was ‘don’t get caught’.

Oh, I learned that in Catholic School … .

272 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:02:58pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

Hookers and preachers work weekends.

Except for buying stuff online, mail is a throwback. It’s like the FAX, there’s little reason for it to exist.

273 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:03:20pm

Image: hF5D9735B.jpg

Later, lizards.

274 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:05:43pm

re: #254 Charles

Sounds like a lawyer’s attempt at a lame excuse.

You mean an excuse to account for his Burkett’s actions, in which case, what’s lame about it? Or are you also saying that the info in the document is not true?

275 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:05:54pm

re: #258 Mich-again

Maybe Dan Rather is still running that line of BS because its the only reason anyone would ever stop to talk about him anymore ? Any publicity is good publicity.

There is the 10% possibility that the universe is weird, that’s why I think Rather is running with it.

He’s no stranger to weird.

276 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:07:30pm

Vindication for the Keystone XL protestors:

Read the whole thing. These old creeps have their grubby, oily hands all over Canada as well.

277 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:07:33pm

re: #264 Charles Johnson

I’m not sure it’s completely obvious to a layman, but I accept that in the view of an expert, it’s obvious.

278 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:08:04pm

re: #275 chadu

You’re not listening. To match at every single letter is more like 1/(0.1^300)

Not 10% chance more like 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance

You are SO wrong!

279 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:09:48pm

re: #275 chadu

Hey, I’ll take 90%. The reality is, it’s more like 99.999999999%, though.

280 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:10:55pm
281 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:11:51pm

re: #268 stabby

I haven’t bothered to read the whole thread, but at the point I’m responding you are soooooo wrong.

Ok.

It takes, well to be honest it took me something like 10 minutes to perfectly match the document.

MS word default settings.
Times New Roman, as automatically installed on Windows 2000.
Default tab positions.

Just type and and print to an electronic document and viola, a perfect match.

It’s a fucking proof to some astronomical probability level.

On the link I posted, they said there were divergences that people didn’t notice. (Not defending them; just offering the counterpoint.)

There is NO fucking way that the document didn’t come out of Microsoft Word because a million little points match with no adjustment. Perfect kerning choices. Each fucking letter is spaced right.

It’s not that “it’s impossible for 70 technology to print a document like this” it’s that it matches at thousands of arbitrary choices without adjustment in a way that nothing would EXCEPT WHAT IT CAME FROM.

Cool. As I said up-thread, I’m reasonably sure (90%) that you’re right.

Thanks!

282 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:12:48pm

Someone needs a refresher in probability math.

283 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:12:52pm

re: #279 Charles Johnson

As you say.

Thanks for having the conversation — I came in late.

;)

284 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:14:24pm

re: #278 stabby

I reserve the 10% for my own insanity.

Actual stats mean nothing, because I always have that 10% of raw skepticism about everything.

Even gravity.

CRANK!

285 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:14:35pm

re: #281 chadu

I will give you props for a much more polite response than the one I would have initially written to something like that. But that’s why I have adopted the practice of writing my first response, deleting things, and then thinking it through. :)

286 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:15:18pm

re: #276 Interesting Times

Vindication for the Keystone XL protestors:

Read the whole thing. These old creeps have their grubby, oily hands all over Canada as well.

There was some headline about Chavez and the Koch Oil as well. hmmm, can’t remember where I saw it.

287 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:16:05pm

Actually I think Charles got lucky in a lot of ways.

Not just that he tried MS word, but that there are probably a dozen versions of MS New Times Roman released over the years. There are lots of versions of MS word. There are lots of versions of Windows. He’s lucky that small differences in the versions didn’t make enough changes in the result to confuse people.

288 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:16:23pm

re: #238 Decatur Deb

Chew well and eat more slowly.

I hear that chianti helps with the digestion. /

289 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:16:43pm

re: #288 lawhawk

I hear that chianti helps with the digestion. /

Gelato!

290 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:16:52pm

OT from Colbert:

“Republicans must embrace Hispanics unless science finds a way for Hispanic women to give birth to old white men.”

291 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:17:19pm

re: #289 FemNaziBitch

Gelato!

Man, that sounds good.

292 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:18:21pm

re: #287 stabby

Actually I think Charles got lucky in a lot of ways.

Not just that he tried MS word, but that there are probably a dozen versions of MS New Times Roman released over the years. There are lots of versions of MS word. There are lots of versions of Windows. He’s lucky that small differences in the versions didn’t make enough changes in the result to confuse people.

That is why the apparent inability to match other documents in the Killian memos with word processing software doesn’t prove much.

293 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:19:13pm

re: #289 FemNaziBitch

Absinthe.

294 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:19:17pm

re: #285 klys

Thanks!

I still mentally live in a dorm room suffused with pot smoke:

“Dude, could an atom be representative of the solar system?”

“Whoa!”

“Whoa.”

Though I haven’t smoked pot in years, that’s kinda the way my brain usually operates.

It’s tough to be accepting of other viewpoints and trying to see them through, when the other folk have no interest in seeing your point (c.f., my paternal family).

But it does give you a perspective on argumentation.

295 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:19:42pm

re: #290 EPR-radar

It’s really a surprise to me to realize that almost half of the population has white privilege/white contempt so deep in the brain in 2013 that they act en-mass on this emotion.

For decades I refused to believe that people really care about white privilege. I thought that writings on it were paranoid.

I’d grown up in northern california and canada. I had no idea how people think in the American south. I was so blindsided.

296 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:20:12pm

Notice what’s at the top of the Wikipedia page about this story: Killian Documents Controversy - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia

297 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:21:26pm

re: #287 stabby

There is no luck with Technology.. Generally

298 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:21:41pm

re: #288 lawhawk

Note: Don’t drink chianti without food.

Tonight is the test case.

It’s tearing me up.

As you will.

299 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:22:15pm

re: #295 stabby

White privilege and white supremacy explains a lot. Check out what the ex-mayor of San Diego said last week [Link: www.rightwingwatch.org…]

Public Schools Are Anti-American, Teach ‘Hatred of White People’

300 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:23:09pm

re: #288 lawhawk

I hear that chianti helps with the digestion. /

I thought that was the reason for the fava beans? //

301 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:24:10pm

re: #300 William Barnett-Lewis

I thought that was the reason for the fava beans? //

you so bad

302 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:25:41pm

Evening Lizardim from the soon-to-be-snowbound wild north country. No, nothing like the nor’easter currently blowing its way over our friends across the Lakes, but certainly enough to warrant prepping the snowblower. How are things among the Lizardim tonight?

303 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:25:45pm

re: #299 They Once Called Me Moonbat

I never stopped being shocked that there are masses of white people who aren’t ashamed to air that bullshit “white victimization” crap. It’s like fucking wearing Nazi tatoos, but they want it so bad that they don’t even fucking blush.

304 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:27:01pm

re: #295 stabby

I think the fraction of hard core racists is much less than 50%. However, there are a lot of low information types out there that are conditioned to hate all that is liberal.

So a racist meme like birtherism starts up, people latch onto it at a way to oppose the Satanic liberals, even though they may not themselves be the Stormfront brigade. However, they are training themselves to be exceedingly indifferent to racism, and are effectively mainstreaming some really toxic shit.

It’s like watching the spread of a disease.

305 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:27:34pm

It’s the victimology of former slave owners who’re pissed at not being supererior anymore.

And it’s the reason the people need to fucking forget other victim whiners like the Palestinians who have the same problem, offended superiority, but worse.

306 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:28:15pm

re: #303 stabby

I never stopped being shocked that there are masses of white people who aren’t ashamed to air that bullshit “white victimization” crap. It’s like fucking wearing Nazi tatoos, but they want it so bad that they don’t even fucking blush.

I admit that I bought the whole “reverse racism” BS back in my wingnut days. It’s just one of those things that people who don’t know better, like me, will buy into because they don’t understand just how freaking bad racism and Jim Crow really were, and how ingrained racism really is in the corridors of power.

307 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:28:43pm

re: #305 stabby

I’m throwing a thread hijack flag on that one.

308 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:29:11pm

re: #296 Charles Johnson

to repeat

re: #254 Charles

Sounds like a lawyer’s attempt at a lame excuse.

You mean an excuse to account for his Burkett’s actions, in which case, what’s lame about it? Or are you also saying that the info in the document is not true?

309 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:29:27pm

re: #304 EPR-radar

People who start down that road end up at the end of the road, eventually.

They may not be on Stormfront NOW, but eventually they’ll be old men mumbling about the fucking Jews. The British left is already at that point.

310 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:30:26pm

re: #296 Charles Johnson

Notice what’s at the top of the Wikipedia page about this story: Killian Documents Controversy - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia

Throbbing Wiki!

311 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:31:02pm

re: #310 NJDhockeyfan

Throbbing Wiki!

Is there an emoticon for the surfer hand sign thingy?

312 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:31:30pm

re: #307 Charles Johnson

Want to stay on topic? I didn’t know that staying on topic was wanted here.

It is true that offended superiority is a main problem in this world. People dislike losing privilege over people they consider inferior more than they dislike being oppressed.

313 dragonath  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:31:55pm

Stabby…

…put away the knives…

314 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:32:07pm

Nutcases on parade.

Christopher Dorner Fans On Facebook, Twitter Call Alleged Cop Killer A ‘Hero,’ Citing Police Brutality

Supporters of Christopher Dorner, the former LA policeman turned “cop killer,” have shown up online, with tweets and fan pages on Facebook. Some call Dorner a “hero” for writing a nine-page manifesto alleged on racism and corruption within the LAPD.

Numerous supporters on Twitter are calling the alleged murderer a “Dark Knight.” One Facebook page calls him “the hero LA deserves, but not the one it needs right now … He’s a silent guardian, watchful protector against corruption, he’s our Dark Knight.”

The vast majority of Americans are horrified that Dorner declared “war” on the LAPD and has allegedly killed three individuals so far. But the public disgust seems to add fuel to the fire for his followers, as it does with skeptics of 9/11, the Aurora massacre and the Newtown massacre.

Continues.

315 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:32:53pm

re: #312 stabby

I thought the main problem with the world was religion. That’s what you said …yesterday? That if there was no religion we’d have a utopia.

Half /

316 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:33:13pm
317 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:33:13pm

re: #282 stabby

Life is messy, yo.

318 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:33:17pm

re: #313 dragonath

Stabby…

…put away the knives…

But then Stabby would be Blunty…

319 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:33:40pm

re: #316 Ghost of a Dopefish

Don’t tase me bro.

Nor Luap!

320 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:33:41pm

re: #318 EPR-radar

But then Stabby would be Blunty…

He’d just pull out the credit cards?

321 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:33:47pm

re: #318 EPR-radar

But then Stabby would be Blunty

*snicker*

322 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:34:16pm

re: #315 klys

Sigh, i’ve been told not to go off topic.

But I’ll point out that the Palestinian version of superiority is based on RELIGIOUS TRIUMPHALISM, RELIGIOUS SUPREMICISM, not RACIAL SUPREMICISM.

323 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:34:23pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Not really, but it looks like the wingnuts have developed a new conspiracy theory about me: Dan Rather on Reddit: No one proved that Bush documents were forged « Hot Air Headlines

Hate and butthurt rear their ugly heads yet again.

324 TedStriker  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:35:45pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Not really, but it looks like the wingnuts have developed a new conspiracy theory about me: Dan Rather on Reddit: No one proved that Bush documents were forged « Hot Air Headlines

Get the username (‘APACHEWHOKNOWS’)…I’ll bet that’s TFK.

If it is, that’s some lingering butthurt right there

325 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:36:31pm

re: #322 stabby

And this is different from the Israelis how?

Just asking.

326 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:37:32pm

re: #325 chadu

We’ll have to wait for a thread where that question isn’t “hijacking”

It would be a very long argument.

327 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:37:51pm

re: #314 Gus

Nutcases on parade.

Christopher Dorner Fans On Facebook, Twitter Call Alleged Cop Killer A ‘Hero,’ Citing Police Brutality

Another abuse of the themes of “The Dark Knight”. Christopher Dorner has more in common with John Holmes (the Aurora,CO killer, not the 1970’s porn star) than he does with any version of Batman.

That post is a rancid piece of moonbat guano.

328 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:37:57pm

In other words, “how many hours do you have?”

329 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:39:14pm

re: #316 Ghost of a Dopefish

Don’t tase me bro.

Tasers don’t work underwater, so tasing a dopefish is effectively impossible.

330 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:39:14pm
331 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:39:24pm

re: #314 Gus

Nutcases on parade.

Christopher Dorner Fans On Facebook, Twitter Call Alleged Cop Killer A ‘Hero,’ Citing Police Brutality

I’ve seen some of that. What’s driving it is that Dorner’s crazy rant on Facebook actually made some accusations against the LAPD that rang true.

There are going to be serious repercussions for the LAPD over this.

332 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:39:39pm

Going back to the before-sideways-jaunt in the discussion, I’ve haunted a reasonable number of rather feminist blogs and privilege is certainly something that comes up in discussion a number of times there. A really fascinating thing was watching the discussion that evolved as a function of a woman in skeptic circles letting guys know that following someone to the elevator after they’ve let it be known that they were done with discussion and going to bed and asking them for coffee is somewhat creepy.

A brief summary is here.

Just some food for thought.

333 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:39:42pm

Because the Israeli conflict is burdened with endless reams of propaganda.

Propaganda, not oil, seems to be the Middle East’s main economic output. So there’s ENDLESS bullshit to wade through.

334 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:40:42pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

I’ve seen some of that. What’s driving it is that Dorner’s crazy rant on Facebook actually made some accusations against the LAPD that rang true.

There are going to be serious repercussions for the LAPD over this.

I was wondering. Almost like a reverse Serpico type of weird. After a while, the pressure has to blow.

335 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:41:07pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

Tasers don’t work underwater, so tasing a dopefish is effectively impossible.

Yeah, well, if a cop ever shows up with a spear gun, I’m in deep trouble. Or even just a hook, line, and a minnow. Swim, swim, hungry…

336 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:41:07pm

Nothing like war propaganda to make a discussion so hateful, full of lies, long and unpleasant that sane people will run screaming.

337 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:41:16pm

Racism thrives where there are ignorant people who need a bad guy to blame for their shitty circumstances and failures.

338 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:42:03pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

I’ve seen some of that. What’s driving it is that Dorner’s crazy rant on Facebook actually made some accusations against the LAPD that rang true.

There are going to be serious repercussions for the LAPD over this.

Hopefully. However, violent extremism has a way of tainting the causes it is supposedly supporting. This could make LAPD reform harder.

339 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:42:15pm

re: #332 klys

Going back to the before-sideways-jaunt in the discussion, I’ve haunted a reasonable number of rather feminist blogs and privilege is certainly something that comes up in discussion a number of times there. A really fascinating thing was watching the discussion that evolved as a function of a woman in skeptic circles letting guys know that following someone to the elevator after they’ve let it be known that they were done with discussion and going to bed and asking them for coffee is somewhat creepy.

A brief summary is here.

Just some food for thought.

That paragraph made absolutely no sense to me.

340 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:43:02pm
341 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:43:36pm

re: #326 stabby

Okay.

342 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:44:33pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

There are going to be serious repercussions for the LAPD over this.

I could not believe the story about the small 71 year old lady who was mistaken for a 300 pound black man by the police in Torrance who shot up her pickup truck like Bonnie and Clyde’s car at the toll booth.

343 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:45:25pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

That post is a rancid piece of moonbat guano.

I add to the call for a Moonbat font. Green, I think.

Completely insane font should be red.

My opinion.

344 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:45:35pm

re: #338 EPR-radar

Hopefully. However, violent extremism has a way of tainting the causes it is supposedly supporting. This could make LAPD reform harder.

Exactly. Under William Bratton, the LAPD made great strides. But it would be a shame for any remaining pockets of corruption to survive because one of the people alleging their existence was a murderous asshole.

345 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:45:36pm

re: #337 Mich-again

Well I may be accused of hijacking again, but the IP conflict has shown me that people get addicted to hate propaganda.

Propaganda is a cultural product. It’s a form of story telling designed to evoke emotion.

It tells a clear story with a villain and a hero. And people LOVE to have a righteous CAUSE to attach themselves to.

They love reading their update on righteousness every week.

They love hating the villain.

They become addicted to seeking out stories that enhance their anger.

They become consumers of hate. They become aficionados!

Racial hatred must be the same as other hatreds in this sense.

346 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:45:45pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

I’ve seen some of that. What’s driving it is that Dorner’s crazy rant on Facebook actually made some accusations against the LAPD that rang true.

There are going to be serious repercussions for the LAPD over this.

Which is the intent of these crazed manifestos. There’s also an element of “cop killer” here which brings out the deranged cop haters who now see him as a hero.

347 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:45:58pm

re: #339 FemNaziBitch

That paragraph made absolutely no sense to me.

Apologies. I can try to summarize.

Rebecca Watson was the speaker at a conference where she spoke about sexualization of women in the community. Later that evening, she was at the bar chatting with folks when she wrapped it up and headed to bed. Someone who had been hanging around the edges of the group followed her into the elevator and asked her out for coffee. She later related the incident in a video and said, “Hey guys, just an FYI, this made me feel uncomfortable, don’t do it.” and there was a HUGE firestorm that erupted as a result.

348 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:47:01pm

Just a reminder of the type of future in store if GOP crap like this gains even more traction:

349 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:47:25pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

His assertions may be true, but the “resolution” of them made him bat-shit insane, for which there is no approbation.

350 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:47:25pm

re: #342 Mich-again

I could not believe the story about the small 71 year old lady who was mistaken for a 300 pound black man by the police in Torrance who shot up her pickup truck like Bonnie and Clyde’s car at the toll booth.

I understand they are scared and under a lot of pressure to find this asshole but that was totally stupid. They are very lucky they didn’t kill anyone.

351 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:47:34pm

re: #347 klys

Apologies. I can try to summarize.

Rebecca Watson was the speaker at a conference where she spoke about sexualization of women in the community. Later that evening, she was at the bar chatting with folks when she wrapped it up and headed to bed. Someone who had been hanging around the edges of the group followed her into the elevator and asked her out for coffee. She later related the incident in a video and said, “Hey guys, just an FYI, this made me feel uncomfortable, don’t do it.” and there was a HUGE firestorm that erupted as a result.

So, she is just a little weird?

I kinda got that impression from Dorothy-style braided pig-tails.

352 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:48:40pm

And what I was saying about propaganda has one more property.

Propaganda, lies are DESIGNED to be loved by (a certain audience) of people.

Real stories, truth, IS NOT DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE.

As such, it isn’t emotionally satisfying.
It isn’t addicting.
It isn’t clear.
It isn’t unambiguous.
It doesn’t make you feel better, often quite the reverse.
It doesn’t make you feel important.
It doesn’t make you feel better than others.
etc.

One should be very suspicious of stories that DON’T have these qualities.

If they seem too engaging to be true, they probably are.

353 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:48:42pm

re: #347 klys

Apologies. I can try to summarize.

Rebecca Watson was the speaker at a conference where she spoke about sexualization of women in the community. Later that evening, she was at the bar chatting with folks when she wrapped it up and headed to bed. Someone who had been hanging around the edges of the group followed her into the elevator and asked her out for coffee. She later related the incident in a video and said, “Hey guys, just an FYI, this made me feel uncomfortable, don’t do it.” and there was a HUGE firestorm that erupted as a result.

I can summarize. That crowd is not my cup of tea and PZ Myers is not my “leader.”

354 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:49:52pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

Exactly. Under William Bratton, the LAPD made great strides. But it would be a shame for any remaining pockets of corruption to survive because one of the people alleging their existence was a murderous asshole.

Any organization with the size and power of the LAPD is going to have corruption.

355 dragonath  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:50:22pm

Someone hijacked my mellow

356 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:50:42pm

re: #351 FemNaziBitch

So, she is just a little weird?

I kinda got that impression from Dorothy-style braided pig-tails.

Heh. I wouldn’t say she’s my favorite person - I have no real opinion on her one way or another - but she’s a reasonably well-known voice in the atheist blogging community. It was more the response to her comments that caught my attention, which led to a really interesting discussion about male privilege (both in general and in the atheist community) and rape culture (much more in general).

357 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:51:13pm

re: #352 stabby

And what I was saying about propaganda has one more property.

Propaganda, lies are DESIGNED to be loved by (a certain audience) of people.

Real stories, truth, IS NOT DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE.

As such, it isn’t emotionally satisfying.
It isn’t addicting.
It isn’t clear.
It isn’t unambiguous.
It doesn’t make you feel better, often quite the reverse.
It doesn’t make you feel important.
It doesn’t make you feel better than others.
etc.

One should be very suspicious of stories that DON’T have these qualities.

If they seem too engaging to be true, they probably are.

Are you really trying to teach us about Propaganda? WTF do you think we’ve been discussing on LGF for the last decade?

358 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:51:25pm

re: #351 FemNaziBitch

So, she is just a little weird?

I kinda got that impression from Dorothy-style braided pig-tails.

A little? Heh. :D

359 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:51:46pm

re: #345 stabby

Well I may be accused of hijacking again, but the IP conflict has shown me that people get addicted to hate propaganda.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Not fiction — prophecy!

360 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:51:53pm

Some of those people read sexual assault into everything.

361 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:52:01pm

re: #356 klys

Heh. I wouldn’t say she’s my favorite person - I have no real opinion on her one way or another - but she’s a reasonably well-known voice in the atheist blogging community. It was more the response to her comments that caught my attention, which led to a really interesting discussion about male privilege (both in general and in the atheist community) and rape culture (much more in general).

ah!

I’ve never heard of her before.

362 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:52:53pm

re: #361 FemNaziBitch

ah!

I’ve never heard of her before.

I hadn’t before that incident. Which I only found out about through some other blogs I follow. I tend to stay far away from the vocal atheist/skeptic community.

363 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:53:36pm

re: #351 FemNaziBitch

So, she is just a little weird?

I kinda got that impression from Dorothy-style braided pig-tails.

O NO U DINT!

364 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:53:44pm

re: #340 Lidane

The father of the man who was allegedly roughed up by the training officer told NBCLosAngeles.com that he thought Dorner made too big a deal of the 2007 incident by filing a formal accusation.

“He stood up for what he thought was right,” he said. “You could tell by the look on his face he was just a young, idealistic kid, who was proud of the badge,” Richard Gettler said. “I commended him first. Then I got close to him and said, ‘What is wrong with you? Weren’t you thinking? … It’s the three musketeers, all for one and one for all!’”

Yeah, that’s kind of the whole problem, the three musketeers didn’t operate in a democracy where power derives from the consent of the governed.

365 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:55:11pm

re: #343 chadu

I add to the call for a Moonbat font. Green, I think.

Completely insane font should be red.

My opinion.

Moonbat font needs to be girly and twee because those idiots live in a fairy tale. Like so:

[Link: www.fontspace.com…]

Make that shit pink or teal or some kind of girly color.

Crazed, unhinged font should be blood red and look like this:

[Link: www.fontspace.com…]

366 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:55:38pm

re: #356 klys

What is “rape culture”?

367 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:56:11pm

re: #365 Lidane

I support these suggestions.

368 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:56:29pm

re: #365 Lidane

I think moonbat should have little butterflies and flowers in the letters.

369 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:56:51pm

re: #366 stabby

What is “rape culture”?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

370 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:57:28pm

re: #366 stabby

What is “rape culture”?

Within sociology, Rape culture is a concept of disputed origin and meaning[1] used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.

Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape. Rape culture has been used to model behaviour within social groups, including prison systems where prison rape is common and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[2][3][4][5][6]

Although the concept of rape culture is a generally accepted theory in feminist academia[citation needed], there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.

Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviours. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialisation of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance and other forms of discrimination.
[7][8]

371 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:57:34pm

re: #366 stabby

What is “rape culture”?

Have you not been paying attention for the last 100 years?

372 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:57:50pm

A friend of mine figured out how to embed fonts in a web page.

You could actually design your own font and include it.

373 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:59:03pm

re: #352 stabby

And what I was saying about propaganda has one more property.

Propaganda, lies are DESIGNED to be loved by (a certain audience) of people.

Real stories, truth, IS NOT DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE.

As such, it isn’t emotionally satisfying.
It isn’t addicting.
It isn’t clear.
It isn’t unambiguous.
It doesn’t make you feel better, often quite the reverse.
It doesn’t make you feel important.
It doesn’t make you feel better than others.
etc.

One should be very suspicious of stories that DON’T have these qualities.

If they seem too engaging to be true, they probably are.

Dude, go make a page. Then anyone who actually cares what you have to say can go read it while the rest of us can get on with our lives.

374 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:59:22pm

re: #356 klys

Heh. I wouldn’t say she’s my favorite person - I have no real opinion on her one way or another - but she’s a reasonably well-known voice in the atheist blogging community. It was more the response to her comments that caught my attention, which led to a really interesting discussion about male privilege (both in general and in the atheist community) and rape culture (much more in general).

Yes, there is male privilege but Kim Kardashian is far more privileged than I ever was or will be. Class privilege trumps gender privilege in the USA.

375 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:59:27pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

I’ve seen some of that. What’s driving it is that Dorner’s crazy rant on Facebook actually made some accusations against the LAPD that rang true.

There are going to be serious repercussions for the LAPD over this.

There definitely needs to be some followup by a third party to the allegations that Dorner made in his manifesto. He named specific incidents of wrongdoing by the LAPD and names of people who backed his version of what had happened, as well as those who were engaged in what appeared to be a systematic coverup of police corruption. I’ll say it again - even if a tenth of what he is alleging is true, then they didn’t learn a single thing from the CRASH/Rampart incidents from a decade ago.

376 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:00:09pm

“Rape culture” sounds like something that exists in parts of Asia (like say Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan) and Africa, but you’d have to be paranoid to think it exists here.

377 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:00:34pm

re: #374 Gus

Yes, there is male privilege but Kim Kardashian is far more privileged than I ever was or will be. Class privilege trumps gender privilege in the USA.

hmmm, depends on who has the $$$.

378 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:00:39pm

Women have power here. Girls have power here.

379 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:00:44pm

re: #366 stabby

What is “rape culture”?

The wikipedia article covers its use in the vernacular well, although like it says specific definitions are subject to debate. I tend to use it in the sense that most feminist blogs do - in that it describes a culture where victim blaming, rape trivialization, and sexual objectification are not uncommon.

380 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:00:52pm

re: #376 stabby

“Rape culture” sounds like something that exists in parts of Asia (like say Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan) and Africa, but you’d have to be paranoid to think it exists here.

FUCK YOU!

381 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:01:00pm

re: #376 stabby

Did you just ignore the election last year? Does the name Todd Akin completely faze you?

382 Gus  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:01:24pm

Bleh. I’m out. And not for the ideological reasons you might think.

383 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:02:05pm

re: #382 Gus

Bleh. I’m out. And not for the ideological reasons you might think.

{Gus}

384 EPR-radar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:02:22pm

re: #376 stabby

“Rape culture” sounds like something that exists in parts of Asia (like say Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan) and Africa, but you’d have to be paranoid to think it exists here.

Steubenville, OH.

385 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:02:40pm

re: #374 Gus

Yes, there is male privilege but Kim Kardashian is far more privileged than I ever was or will be. Class privilege trumps gender privilege in the USA.

I don’t disagree that class privilege plays its own role and is something that should be considered. Not going to disagree with you there. I think it’s silly to pretend gender privilege doesn’t exist though.

I’d love to see real equality.

386 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:02:44pm

re: #381 Lidane

Todd and his friends don’t commit rape, they just want to outlaw abortion and contraception.

387 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:03:00pm

re: #382 Gus

Bleh. I’m out. And not for the ideological reasons you might think.

Hope your ankle continues to feel better, Gus!

388 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:03:28pm

re: #386 stabby

Todd and his friends don’t commit rape, they just want to outlaw abortion and contraception.

“Legitimate rape” ring any bells?

389 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:03:32pm

re: #381 Lidane

Did you just ignore the election last year? Does the name Todd Akin completely faze you?

This one is all yours, I’m going to have a good evening.

390 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:04:29pm

re: #388 klys

Yes, and once again, Todd and his friends have never committed rape.

They have a different agenda.

391 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:04:53pm

I’d bet that Todd Akin doesn’t know a single person who commits rapes.

392 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:05:03pm

re: #354 FemNaziBitch

Any organization with the size and power of the LAPD is going to have corruption.

Which is why I support that all major cities should have a civilian citizens review board — completely unattached to the law enforcement chain-of-command — for their police departments. With as much power as they have — literally life-or-death — they have to have a watchdog insuring their accountability.

393 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:05:05pm
394 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:05:08pm

re: #390 stabby

Yes, and once again, Todd and his friends have never committed rape.

They have a different agenda.

Could you define for me what legitimate rape is then?

395 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:05:22pm

Some heroes come out of nowhere and their bravery shines at the right time.

DORNER MANHUNT: Good Samaritan helped save officer

The Riverside police officer who officials say was shot at least six times by assailant Christopher Dorner was saved by a good Samaritan who rushed to his aid and helped him radio for help.

396 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:05:46pm

re: #389 FemNaziBitch

This one is all yours, I’m going to have a good evening.

Actually, I think I’m better off having a drink and enjoying my evening.

It’s not worth the stress to try and correct that much fail.

397 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:06:20pm

re: #376 stabby

so wrong

398 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:06:36pm

re: #396 Lidane

Actually, I think I’m better off having a drink and enjoying my evening.

It’s not worth the stress to try and correct that much fail.

Perhaps we should leave it to the Gentlemen Lizards. I think they can handle it.
:)

399 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:06:37pm

I have an old friend that has a house in Big Bear.. The news is completely off the chart. I tried to call Tom and nothing.. I emailed him worried as hell.
He is in Guam upgrading the IT power infrastructure and freaked out. His Wife and daughter are at a Neighbors house hunkered down. Safe. We hope.
This story has brought a lot of us old friends together by mass emails.

400 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:06:59pm

Poorly written post withdrawn.

401 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:07:07pm

re: #394 klys

It’s an excuse to deny abortion.

Once again, extreme conservative Christians don’t feel privileged to commit rapes and tell girls that they better keep quiet. That’s what “rape culture” implies.

They don’t hold “rape parties”
They don’t buy women

it’s a different problem

402 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:08:23pm

re: #400 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to grant stabby a point on this one: Todd Akin, asshole though he is, does not think rape is a good thing. The Egyptian imams who proclaimed that sexual assault of female protesters in Cairo’s Tahir Square are actually pro-rape, in a way that has no large scale counterpart in the US.

Sorry, but no.

Akin and the GOP’s retrograde “legitimate rape” bullshit has formed the basis for all GOP drafted legislation attacking access to abortion, emergency contraception and rape laws for decades. Akin doesn’t get a pass at all.

403 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:08:30pm

re: #399 HoosierHoops

I have and old friend that has a house in Big Bear.. The news is completely off the chart. I tried to call Tom and nothing.. I emailed him worried as hell.
He is in Guam upgrading the IT power infrastructure and freaked out. His Wife and daughter are at a Neighbors house hunkered down. Safe. We hope.
This story has brought a lot of us old friends together by mass emails.

I doubt they are in serious danger: Dorner is a scumbag, but I doubt he’ll want to ‘compromise his point’ with a random attack on civilians.

404 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:08:42pm

Akin’s fellow troglodytes in the Iowa GOP are looking to define a person as from the moment of conception - from the formation of a zygote and include that as murder. It defines murder to include any thing that could terminate the life of that “person” zygote.

Let that sink in. They’re completely willing to give a bunch of cells more rights than the fully formed person to make decisions about their own body and ignores basic reproductive science.

405 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:09:16pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

Have you stopped answering questions about the kerning?

406 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:10:06pm

re: #376 stabby

“Rape culture” sounds like something that exists in parts of Asia (like say Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan) and Africa, but you’d have to be paranoid to think it exists here.

I beg to differ with you, specifically due to the proliferation of so-called “men’s rights” groups in the United States. They almost outright state that 90% of sexual assault/rape incidents occur due to women who were “asking for it”.

407 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:11:29pm

re: #403 Dark_Falcon

I doubt they are in serious danger: Dorner is a scumbag, but I doubt he’ll want to ‘compromise his point’ with a random attack on civilians.

I think he blew up the truck by cell phone and has targets on his list. I fear He is in LA.

408 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:11:56pm

re: #406 RadicalModerate

I beg to differ with you, specifically due to the proliferation of so-called “men’s rights” groups in the United States. They almost outright state that 90% of sexual assault/rape incidents occur due to women who were “asking for it”.

Stabby, do you know about Steubenville? I think it reflects a reality in much of America [Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

409 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:12:28pm

re: #400 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to grant stabby a point on this one: Todd Akin, asshole though he is, does not think rape is a good thing. The Egyptian imams who proclaimed that sexual assault of female protesters in Cairo’s Tahir Square are actually pro-rape, in a way that has no large scale counterpart in the US.

I’m going to disagree: there’s nothing about “rape culture” that says that they think rape is a good thing. It’s that it’s unimportant. A joke. A women’s issue (or a feminizing one, in the case of prison rape).

That if a women presents herself as needing an abortion because she was raped, well, obviously she’s lying, because if it’s legitimate rape her body can shut that down.

Being a conservative Christian does not prevent someone from being a rapist, sadly. I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised to find that Akin does know one, he just doesn’t know it.

410 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:12:41pm

I’m not going to defend Todd Akin: I didn’t when he spoke his horrid words and I do not do so now.

I was trying to establish what I felt stabby’s point was: Bad as Akin and many wingnuts are, there are people in the world who actually consider a man raping a woman acceptable and they are far worse than American wingnuts.

That point is worthy, but it should not extend to any species of defense of Akin.

411 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:12:50pm

I will only amend this way:

Todd Akin and co, do not exist in a rape culture but if they get their way and manage to oppress women through the laws in that case they will create the legal mess that allows a rape culture to emerge.

Well to be honest I don’t think they can do it. I think they can’t make things quite that retrograde, but it IS true that conservative oppression of women is a backbone that enables rape in some cultures.

412 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:13:28pm

re: #411 stabby

Stabby, do you know about Steubenville? I think it reflects a reality in much of America [Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

413 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:13:33pm

re: #401 stabby

Once again, extreme conservative Christians don’t feel privileged to commit rapes and tell girls that they better keep quiet.

*cough*

While others were focusing on what was increasingly becoming known of the actions of Tina’s pastor, Chuck Phelps who made her stand before her congregation and apologize for putting herself in a compromising situation and getting raped, the cooperating board at Bob Jones University had quietly pulled a dirty trick.

414 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:13:33pm
415 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:14:13pm

re: #407 HoosierHoops

I think he blew up the truck by cell phone and has targets on his list. I fear He is in LA.

You may be right. They said there were footprints leading away from his burning truck then they stop. I bet he left the area in another car.

416 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:14:37pm

re: #407 HoosierHoops

I actually agree. I think blowing up the truck was accelerants, plus a radio signal ignition

This dude is seriously dangerous.

417 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:15:00pm

re: #412 They Once Called Me Moonbat

Stabby, do you know about Steubenville? I think it reflects a reality in much of America [Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

That story still makes me want to burn things.

418 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:15:29pm

re: #354 FemNaziBitch

Any organization with the size and power of the LAPD is going to have corruption.

I am not a fan of either “the code” or of vigilantes.

419 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:16:01pm

re: #378 stabby

Um, fuck you.

Courteously.

(/1776)

420 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:16:05pm

Again, because I think this is important and being overlooked here:

In a lot of these discussions, particularly involving rape culture in the Western world, it is not that it is saying ‘rape is a good thing’ or ‘rape is encouraged’. The message of rape culture is one of victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivialization of rape (making it a joke). I think most of us can agree this kind of thing does happen in Western cultures to an extent, yes?

421 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:16:10pm

I’m going to throw one more thing out there before signing out for the night - the whole “rape culture” and the renewed abortion debates stem from one central issue.

“Who get to control women and their bodies”?

It’s really that simple.

422 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:16:13pm

re: #415 NJDhockeyfan

You may be right. They said there were footprints leading away from his burning truck then they stop. I bet he left the area in another car.

No, CNN had follow up on that one. The tracks end on a large patch of bar but frozen ground. Dorner picked the spot where he left his truck with a view towards using ground where he would not leave tracks. He’s smart. Evil but smart.

423 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:16:29pm

re: #414 FemNaziBitch

I think you misdinged my #413.

Edit: thanks for fixing it :)

424 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:17:31pm

All the rape talk on here is giving me a headache. I need to stop reading those posts.

425 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:18:27pm

re: #424 NJDhockeyfan

All the rape talk on here is giving me a headache. I need to stop reading those posts.

I wish it wasn’t an issue too. :(

426 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:18:34pm

re: #424 NJDhockeyfan

All the rape talk on here is giving me a headache. I need to stop reading those posts.

some men would say they have a “cure” for that headache.

:0

427 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:19:37pm

re: #410 Dark_Falcon

Bad as Akin and many wingnuts are, there are people in the world who actually consider a man raping a woman acceptable and they are far worse than American wingnuts.

That point is worthy, but it should not extend to any species of defense of Akin.

Akin’s implied point was that he found raping acceptable as an initial issue.

“Any way the sperm hits egg, it’s now sacred.”

Correct me if I’m wrong.

428 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:19:43pm

re: #426 FemNaziBitch

some men would say they have a “cure” for that headache.

:0

Sorry for offending you.

429 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:20:24pm

re: #413 Interesting Times

eek!

Bob Jones University.

I guess that religious nuts, in their fervor to discourage sex, DO make examples of anyone who seems even slightly sexually liberated, and thus they blame victims.

While this can backfire and create a rape culture, whether it actually has in a specific group is not a question of principle it’s a question of specifics. And it may be a bit unlikely in our culture.

In the end the question is, do extreme christians at Bob Jones go around committing rape, thinking that’s ok, plotting to commit rape en mass… Rape culture specifics! And the answer is probably no

430 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:21:54pm

There is a legal definition of rape —that which can be adjudicated.

Then there is what cannot be adjudicated. What is the difference? Well, I guess that depends on the individual man and what he is willing to see in the mirror.

Anytime you put your sexual/power needs ahead of the woman’s wants/needs—anytime you see a woman as a thing instead of a person—anytime you cajole and pester and work to wear down your partner because you want sexual gratification —you are committing rape.

Think about it.

431 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:22:00pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

No, CNN had follow up on that one. The tracks end on a large patch of bar but frozen ground. Dorner picked the spot where he left his truck with a view towards using ground where he would not leave tracks. He’s smart. Evil but smart.

Not sure about that. I would think if that was true the bloodhounds they have out there would have found his trail.

432 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:22:08pm
433 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:22:17pm

Have a great evening all!

434 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:22:28pm

re: #427 chadu

Akin’s implied point was that he found raping acceptable as an initial issue.

“Any way the sperm hits egg, it’s now sacred.”

Correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s worse actually. His point was that if a woman gets pregnant she couldn’t possibly have been raped, so if she says she was she’s just a lying wh***.

435 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:23:12pm

re: #429 stabby

Maybe you missed it. THIS cannot happen WITHOUT a rape culture: [Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

436 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:24:18pm
437 dragonath  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:25:20pm
438 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:26:19pm
439 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:26:20pm

re: #432 klys

LOOK I AM A KITTEN-BAT.

Oh my God, I died!

I need to see more of that picture!

440 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:26:50pm

re: #429 stabby

Before I go back to the kitten pictures, since things are …well, where they are:

Stabby, with all due respect, I think you are not seeing the point. Whether it is intentional or not, that’s for you to say. You asked a question, I answered and provided some examples of why I believe that way. I doubt you’ll be able to convince me and right now I remain unconvinced that you want to have a good faith discussion.

So, cat pictures!

441 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:26:55pm

Stalkers gotta stalk.

442 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:27:34pm

re: #432 klys

LOOK I AM A KITTEN-BAT.

THAT. IS. ADORABLE.

443 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:27:58pm
444 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:29:30pm

re: #441 Charles Johnson

Stalkers gotta stalk.

These are the kinds of stalkers that should make you feel good about yourself.

445 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:31:48pm

I’m on the phone with my mom who is lecturing me on eating better.

446 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:32:14pm

OK I give up. Let the Kerner Swiftboat go with the water under the bridge

447 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:32:22pm

re: #435 They Once Called Me Moonbat

No I wasn’t aware of that.

448 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:32:37pm

re: #443 klys

Stalkers gotta stalk?

That plus the ‘bat’ pic are enough Cute for the entire weekend!

449 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:32:54pm

I am pondering writing a “fear/ignorance/jingoism” page tonight.

I need a smoke.

Y’all have 3 to 4 minutes to think that would be good or bad, and responde to me.

450 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:33:15pm

I have no energy to cook right now because it’s all going to prepping for my doctoral defense. My mother keeps offering to fly out and help (since my husband also works full time).

There’s a point where it’s like, I love you mom, but I can really only take your physical presence for a week a time. And we’re there.

So instead I eat a lot of pepperoni and Oreos and promise myself I will eat right and exercise post-defense.

451 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:33:47pm
452 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:34:47pm
453 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:35:00pm

re: #430 FemNaziBitch

-anytime you cajole and pester and work to wear down your partner because you want sexual gratification —you are committing rape.

Think about it.

Wait, what? I mean, okay sure that’s kind of dickish behavior, especially couched in those terms, but at some point the woman’s agency has to factor in. If there’s not even a hint of implied thread, force or trickery involved then the guy is just being a whiney jackass, and their partner has every opportunity to tell them to go pound sand, as it were. I’m not sure it helps rape victims to so heavily dilute the term.

454 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:37:19pm

re: #451 Feline Fearless Leader

Need more tuxedo cats!

I wish I had more pictures of my grey tux kitty. He is a real handful.

455 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:38:52pm

re: #454 Ghost of a Dopefish

I need to get off my bum and upload pictures of my babies, because they really are gorgeous and I am a proud kitten-mom and love to show them off. The files are too big for here though and I have been lazy and reading glass research all day.

So instead, you are a heavy kitty.

456 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:39:45pm

re: #443 klys

For the first 47 years of my life I was a dog person and would have nothing to do with cats at all. Then one day we came home and a cat had kittens in our garage. Weirdly enough it was on a day when the world was supposed to end according to some crackpot preacher. Anyhoo, we now have the same 2 dogs we already had, but we also adopted the mama cat and her tiny runt kitten after finding homes for the other two kittens. The runt Gracie is almost 2 but is still just a half scale cat, so small. perfect size actually. And yeah the dogs and cats live together in peace.

457 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:39:57pm

re: #453 goddamnedfrank

Wait, what? I mean, okay sure that’s kind of dickish behavior, especially couched in those terms, but at some point the woman’s agency has to factor in. If there’s not even a hint of implied thread, force or trickery involved then the guy is just being a whiney jackass, and their partner has every opportunity to tell them to go pound sand, as it were. I’m not sure it helps rape victims to so heavily dilute the term.

Thank you for that. I could not have said it as well as you did.

458 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:40:07pm

re: #455 klys

I need to get off my bum and upload pictures of my babies, because they really are gorgeous and I am a proud kitten-mom and love to show them off. The files are too big for here though and I have been lazy and reading glass research all day.

So instead, you are a heavy kitty.

I have a few closeups of my feline family, but nothing that really shows them in their full glory. My wife’s feline overlord, Basement Cat, is particularly worthy of a full feline photo.

459 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:41:30pm

Ahh, much better. I have a cold beer to hand, and a comfortable couch to relax on. It’s going to be a good night. :)

460 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:41:44pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

Thank you for that. I could not have said it as well as you did.

I just want to add, I don’t disagree with either of what you are saying.

I really, truly do want to see true equality. I think that, for all the progress we have made (and it is a lot!), there is still sadly a long way to go - and pretending there isn’t gets us nowhere.

461 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:41:49pm

re: #420 klys

Again, because I think this is important and being overlooked here:

In a lot of these discussions, particularly involving rape culture in the Western world, it is not that it is saying ‘rape is a good thing’ or ‘rape is encouraged’. The message of rape culture is one of victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivialization of rape (making it a joke). I think most of us can agree this kind of thing does happen in Western cultures to an extent, yes?

You’re confusing things.

Sexual objectification is a natural part of human sexuality and instinct, and like plenty of parts of that, it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, it’s cruel and unfair, and it’s actually important and a lot of fun for some people.

That you don’t like it doesn’t make it evil, doesn’t make it rape, and doesn’t make it something that could ever be eradicated or controlled.

There’s a similar discussion about why people joke or trivialize. But frankly it’s too ugly to have.

In the end we have to face the fact that sexuality is not something that standardizes. You can’t make other people’s needs nice, you can’t make like my own.

When you find yourself thinking “no one needs these kinks that I don’t share” then you’ve gone off the rails. You’ll never have control over that because the people who HAVE kinks have little control over them.

462 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:43:28pm

re: #456 Mich-again

For the first 47 years of my life I was a dog person and would have nothing to do with cats at all. Then one day we came home and a cat had kittens in our garage. Weirdly enough it was on a day when the world was supposed to end according to some crackpot preacher. Anyhoo, we now have the same 2 dogs we already had, but we also adopted the mama cat and her tiny runt kitten after finding homes for the other two kittens. The runt Gracie is almost 2 but is still just a half scale cat, so small. perfect size actually. And yeah the dogs and cats live together in peace.

Oh man. Our *small* cat is 10 pounds. Our big one tips the scale at 15 pounds.

I really want a kitten but I keep getting overruled.

463 prairiefire  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:46:28pm

re: #456 Mich-again

I had a runt kitty as well. She was my “forever kitten” named Milcah. Sweet little girl.

464 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:47:02pm

re: #461 stabby

I have nothing against sexual objectification when done consensually between two* people. At all. As far as I am concerned, it is none of my business what two people are doing in their bedroom as long as both parties are of age and consenting.

Again, with all respect, we are talking about different things here.

* (Edited to add: or three or four or whatever. People can do what they want, again, as long as they are of age and consenting.)

465 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:48:40pm

re: #463 prairiefire

I had a runt kitty as well. She was my “forever kitten” named Milcah. Sweet little girl.

Our runt kitty is a rescue from one of my sisters-in-law. They had a wild mama cat who ran around with the boys in the neighborhood, then came home to deliver her brood. A family of 10 kids - one of them with Down syndrome - is no place for a runt, so we adopted her as soon as she was of age. She now lives in a heated kitty box on the back porch, with plenty of blankets and food.

466 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:49:26pm
467 darthstar  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:54:35pm

I find that throbbing memo oddly stimulating.

468 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:54:39pm

re: #464 klys

Sexual objectification is a natural way of thinking. Every time you look at someone and think they’re hot you’re “guilty” of it. Every time you think someone is attractive in a deeper way than just “hotness” you’re STILL guilty of it.

It’s unfair in that not everyone is pretty, not everyone is young, not everyone has a nice voice or whatever else turns your crank.

Secular ideologies that oppose the animal instincts that make up human emotion and needs are not better than religious nonsense that do the same. They bring internal conflict, vacuous judgement and thus misery.

And attempts to make sexuality fair are naive.

469 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:54:46pm

So if Birthers and Truthers are accepted names for certain kinds of foolishness, how about “Boothers” for those who hate President Obama for being black above all else?

470 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:56:39pm

re: #469 Political Atheist

So if Birthers and Truthers are accepted names for certain kinds of foolishness, how about “Boothers” for those who hate President Obama for being black above all else?

I rather prefer the term “Bonkers” myself.

471 Lidane  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:56:47pm

re: #469 Political Atheist

So if Birthers and Truthers are accepted names for certain kinds of foolishness, how about “Boothers” for those who hate President Obama for being black above all else?

There’s a much simpler word for them: Racists.

472 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:57:29pm

re: #471 Lidane

There’s a much simpler word for them: Racists.

Concur.

473 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:59:02pm

Well, I made that page.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Have at it.

474 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:03:12pm

re: #463 prairiefire

I had a runt kitty as well. She was my “forever kitten” named Milcah. Sweet little girl.

Gracie is about 3-4 pounds fully grown. Too bad they can’t breed cats that size.

475 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:04:06pm

re: #468 stabby

Sexual objectification is a natural way of thinking. Every time you look at someone and think they’re hot you’re “guilty” of it. Every time you think someone is attractive in a deeper way than just “hotness” you’re STILL guilty of it.

It’s unfair in that not everyone is pretty, not everyone is young, not everyone has a nice voice or whatever else turns your crank.

Secular ideologies that oppose the animal instincts that make up human emotion and needs are not better than religious nonsense that do the same. They bring internal conflict, vacuous judgement and thus misery.

And attempts to make sexuality fair are naive.

I just have to ask. Are you advocating that we should all just live according to our animal instincts? Because that’s how this reads to me, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.

476 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:04:42pm

re: #474 Mich-again

Gracie is about 3-4 pounds fully grown. Too bad they can’t breed cats that size.

!!!

I covet.

477 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:07:53pm

re: #453 goddamnedfrank

Wait, what? I mean, okay sure that’s kind of dickish behavior, especially couched in those terms, but at some point the woman’s agency has to factor in. If there’s not even a hint of implied thread, force or trickery involved then the guy is just being a whiney jackass, and their partner has every opportunity to tell them to go pound sand, as it were. I’m not sure it helps rape victims to so heavily dilute the term.

I find that abject pleading sometimes works.

478 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:08:32pm

re: #474 Mich-again

Gracie is about 3-4 pounds fully grown. Too bad they can’t breed cats that size.

Glad you’re happy. That’s a bit too small for me.

479 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:09:44pm

re: #478 Dark_Falcon

Glad you’re happy. That’s a bit too small for me.

Want a giant? I have a 15lb cat that claws at doors, eats hair, and pees on the floor occasionally. Also, cannot distinguish between licking and biting but does both to excess. Otherwise a terribly sweet cat.

480 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:10:17pm

re: #475 klys

I just have to ask. Are you advocating that we should all just live according to our animal instincts? Because that’s how this reads to me, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.

We mostly do anyway.

It’s just that we hate ourselves and each other for doing it.

We become neurotic and wracked with internal conflict that comes out as aggression. Hating what it means to be human is not the source of virtue that people think it is.

481 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:10:21pm

re: #479 klys

Want a giant? I have a 15lb cat that claws at doors, eats hair, and pees on the floor occasionally. Also, cannot distinguish between licking and biting but does both to excess. Otherwise a terribly sweet cat.

Yeah, it’ll destroy Dark.
/

482 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:10:23pm

re: #468 stabby

Every time you look at someone and think they’re hot you’re “guilty” of it. Every time you think someone is attractive in a deeper way than just “hotness” you’re STILL guilty of it.

Is that a culture or an instinct?

483 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:11:01pm

Anyways, I’m tired.
Later.

484 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:11:03pm

re: #461 stabby

Rape culture exists, and the main sign of it is all the goddamn people who get raped, and how few rape victims come forward because of the shame, humiliation, and likely lack of penalty against the rapists. More broadly, rape culture is the attitudes, assumptions, and expectations that underly gender relations. It’s much better in some parts of the US than in others, but it’s present everywhere. The amount of sexual assault and rape in our society is not a string of unrelated incidents.

485 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:12:12pm

re: #480 stabby

We mostly do anyway.

It’s just that we hate ourselves and each other for doing it.

We become neurotic and wracked with internal conflict that comes out as aggression. Hating what it means to be human is not the source of virtue that people think it is.

And so if person A’s animal instinct says “mate” and person B doesn’t want it…?

486 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:13:13pm

re: #482 Mich-again

Is that a culture or an instinct?

Instinct.

Transsexuals are given unnaturally high doses of hormones in order to change the shape of their bodies quickly.

The experiences of F to M transexuals show that testosterone causes the sort of visual thinking coupled with arousal and with impulse that makes up “sexual objectification”

487 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:14:24pm

re: #485 klys

then find someone else.

Uhm isn’t that obvious?

488 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:16:17pm

re: #484 Obdicut

Or maybe rape doesn’t come from culture.
Chimps do worse than rape. They have wars and kill all of their rivals babies to make space for their own.

We’re animals, not everything is culture.

489 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:16:41pm

re: #486 stabby


Thems some biotruths there, bud!

Seriously, dude, what is up with you? You’re now spouting off some bizarre deterministic crap about human behavior based on hormones? Is this performance art?

490 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:17:13pm

re: #488 stabby

Or maybe rape doesn’t come from culture.
Chimps do worse than rape. They have wars and kill all of their rivals babies to make space for their own.

We’re animals, not everything is culture.

Humans have been known to do that, too.

491 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:17:29pm

re: #489 Obdicut

Reality doesn’t match your education, apparently.

That’s not my problem.

492 klys  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:17:35pm

re: #487 stabby

You can lead a horse to water but…

IT’S SUPERMAN!

Stabby, we just have some fundamental disagreements. It’s cool. I’m done. :) It’s dinnertime here.

493 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:18:15pm

re: #489 Obdicut

Thems some biotruths there, bud!

Seriously, dude, what is up with you? You’re now spouting off some bizarre deterministic crap about human behavior based on hormones? Is this performance art?

I think its a form of contrarianism known as Killgoritis.

494 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:18:30pm

re: #488 stabby

Dude, if you can’t understand that parts of culture like the representation of women as sexually passive, the shame attached to having been raped, the mainstreaming of “No sometimes means yes”, and all the rest of the various things in our culture that create the circumstances for rape and allow people to get away with it, then I can’t really do much for you. It’s pretty fucking obvious what rape culture is to any marginally half-aware person.

495 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:18:47pm

re: #491 stabby

Fling an insult, get a downding.

496 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:19:24pm

re: #491 stabby

Reality doesn’t match your education, apparently.

That’s not my problem.

Read Sapolsky’s “A Primate’s Memoir”, and pay particular attention to the end.

497 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:19:52pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

I prefer not to argue with someone as presumptuous as Obdicut always is.

498 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:22:21pm

re: #497 stabby

You’re the guy who’s looking like an idiot for claiming he can’t understand what rape culture is— or who’s not stopping to think for the fifteen seconds it’d take for you to actually grasp the topic.

It’s weird. You clearly know a lot, though you don’t know a lot in any sort of orderly fashion and your quality control is goddamn terrible. How do you decide what to believe and what to reject? What’s the process? You have the most random collection of beliefs.

499 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:26:11pm

re: #498 Obdicut

I took the definition of rape culture off of Wikipedia.

Wikipedia could be wrong and the people here right I suppose.

Anyway I think you’re always insulting and I wish you’d stop lecturing me and talking to me.

500 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:26:16pm

re: #491 stabby

I have rarely hoped for Stinky to get tired of someone. Congratulations…

501 dragonath  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:27:28pm

re: #499 stabby

Anyway I think you’re always insulting and I wish you’d stop lecturing me and talking to me

Wow, you get to choose who talks to you?

502 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:30:26pm

re: #494 Obdicut

Dude, if you can’t understand that parts of culture like the representation of women as sexually passive, the shame attached to having been raped, the mainstreaming of “No sometimes means yes”, and all the rest of the various things in our culture that create the circumstances for rape and allow people to get away with it, then I can’t really do much for you. It’s pretty fucking obvious what rape culture is to any marginally half-aware person.

Sigh. And here I am breaking my rule.

I see “representation of women as sexually passive” a LOT in other cultures. Ours? Not at all.

503 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:34:51pm

re: #499 stabby

I took the definition of rape culture off of Wikipedia.

Wikipedia could be wrong and the people here right I suppose.

Anyway I think you’re always insulting and I wish you’d stop lecturing me and talking to me.

I wish you’d stop being a gigantic bigot who thinks that Islam is inherently worse than Christianity and use completely batshit insane backwards reasoning that’s arguably worse than Robert Spencer’s to reach that conclusion.

I doubt either of us are going to get what we want.

504 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:35:08pm

re: #502 stabby

Sigh. And here I am breaking my rule.

I see “representation of women as sexually passive” a LOT in other cultures. Ours? Not at all.

Then you’re blind as a fucking bat.

505 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:35:11pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

I think you’ll probably want to respond to this.

506 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:37:37pm

re: #504 Obdicut

Culture from what century are we talking about?

507 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:42:39pm

re: #506 stabby

Culture from what century are we talking about?

This century. Things have improved. The patriarchy didn’t suddenly just goddamn vanish. There is still, in our culture, a very large expectation of men initiating sex, and women being commitment-oriented. This is shown in everything from advertisements to the plots of soap operas.

This is like feminism 101. I’m going to bed.

508 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:44:43pm

re: #507 Obdicut

There is still, in our culture, a very large expectation of men initiating sex, and women being commitment-oriented. This is shown in everything from advertisements to the plots of soap operas.

So people are expected to follow common instincts that any evolutionary psychologist recognizes? Horrors!

509 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:46:55pm

That people on average, act the way people do, on average, is an affront to feminism? Who knew?

By the way I’m a commitment oriented person. Not out of choice, not out of any belief, it just seems to be my need.

Apparently it isn’t every male’s need.

Shrug.

510 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:53:49pm

“When I hear the word ‘culture’ I reach for my Browning copy of ‘Coming of Age In Samoa’.”

‘Nite, all.

511 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:55:49pm

re: #510 Decatur Deb

I smiled.

512 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:59:27pm

re: #498 Obdicut

How do you decide what to believe and what to reject? What’s the process? You have the most random collection of beliefs.

Observation. That’s the only method I trust.

513 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 9:01:03pm

re: #509 stabby

After 23+ years of marriage with a flawless record and raising 3 wonderful children I know a little. It never gets any easier. People ask me so where are you two going for your 25th anniversary? I’m like.. huh? we have to get to 24 first. ha.

514 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 9:01:48pm

Oh and maybe a bunch of rules of thumb for recognizing bullshit.

For instance, if people have a reason to want to believe something then it’s probably false.

515 stabby  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 9:07:05pm

re: #513 Mich-again

People ask me so where are you two going for your 25th anniversary? I’m like.. huh? we have to get to 24 first. ha.

I missed decades due to being quite sick. I’m new to this relationship thing.

At this point all I have a best friend who used to be my first girlfriend. It’s not easy. We talk every day usually for a long time, but she’s not my girlfriend.

516 Mich-again  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 9:27:29pm

re: #515 stabby

I’m new to this relationship thing.

Experience doesn’t help.

517 prairiefire  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 10:44:00pm

re: #516 Mich-again

Experience doesn’t help.

True dat.

518 Shvaughn  Sat, Feb 9, 2013 1:07:41am

re: #469 Political Atheist

So if Birthers and Truthers are accepted names for certain kinds of foolishness, how about “Boothers” for those who hate President Obama for being black above all else?

As in John Wilkes…? Let’s not give them encouragement.

519 chadu  Sat, Feb 9, 2013 3:41:13am

re: #456 Mich-again

I just love animals. Grew up with dogs and feral/semi-domesticated outside cats.

The “dog-person/cat-person” bullshit pisses me off, I love both sorts of aminals.

They killed my dog when I went away to college, probably for her own good, agreed (she was sick all the time and not getting better), but they never fucking told me. I come home for Thanksgiving, and I say, “Where’s Ginger?” and I’m told then “We put her down in September.”

And you didn’t fucking mention euthanizing my beloved dog from late-August until late-November, during those weekly phone calls we had, every goddamn week?

Not. One. Word.

My family is f’d up.

Apologies, Lizards.

Something just reacted; I’ll talk about it with my therapist.

520 stabby  Sat, Feb 9, 2013 4:05:13am

I never live in places that allow animals.

Since I have minor allergies to cats and maybe dogs (after having grown up with them), I fantasize about having a house-trained bunny.

I know it’s possible to train them.

521 They Once Called Me Moonbat  Sat, Feb 9, 2013 10:10:46am

re: #509 stabby

That people on average, act the way people do, on average, is an affront to feminism? Who knew?

By the way I’m a commitment oriented person. Not out of choice, not out of any belief, it just seems to be my need.

Apparently it isn’t every male’s need.

Shrug.

I showed you Steubenville. That shows rape culture. You didn’t respond.

Now this comment of yours above. Look at it this way: when slavery was legal, “people on average act(ed) the way people do on average” and it was an affront to humanity, to basic racial equality, right? But at the time, the average person didn’t know that, didn’t get it. Now it’s the same situation (obviously with major improvements and strides) for the culture, the average person, and feminism. I hope this gives you a perspective to understand.


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A drug is not bad. A drug is a chemical compound. The problem comes in when people who take drugs treat them as a license to behave like an asshole.