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Pope Benedict XVI Says He Will Resign, ANSA Reports

Religion • Views: 18,974

1121: Pope Benedict announced his decision in Latin, during a meeting of Vatican cardinals.

1120: Mr Thompson also tells the BBC it will be difficult to find someone of Benedict XVI’s calibre to replace him.

1119: Religious commentator Damian Thompson says the news is sad and Benedict XVI has been a great Pope.

It’s worth noting that the exact reasons for Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation are not yet clear.

Frederic in Belgium emails: My God I’m in shock. What a strange decision as normally a Pope dies in function. He should have a good reason, and may God help him in his way.

Read our main news story on the pope’s resignation here.

1116: A Vatican official says he expects the period when the papacy is vacant to be “as brief as possible, Reuters reports.

1115: The Vatican says Pope Benedict’s resignation means the papacy will be vacant until a successor is chosen, Reuters news agency reports.

More: LIVE: Pope Benedict XVI Says He Will Resign, ANSA Reports

More at CNN

The full declaration:

As transcribed by Vatican Radio
I have convoked you to this Consistory, not only for the three canonizations, but also to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry. I am well aware that this ministry, due to its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering. However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.Dear Brothers, I thank you most sincerely for all the love and work with which you have supported me in my ministry and I ask pardon for all my defects. And now, let us entrust the Holy Church to the care of Our Supreme Pastor, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and implore his holy Mother Mary, so that she may assist the Cardinal Fathers with her maternal solicitude, in electing a new Supreme Pontiff. With regard to myself, I wish to also devotedly serve the Holy Church of God in the future through a life dedicated to prayer.

Read more: [Link: www.kshb.com…]

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227 comments

1 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 3:29:51am

And he just got on Twitter…

2 KiTA  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 3:45:28am

I’d wager this is in relation to the pedophile priest scandal. Wasn’t it just found out recently that he had personally helped protect thousands of pedophile priests from the justice system?

3 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 4:09:56am

All for the woman (or the man) he loves.

4 darkagegirl  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 4:31:57am

Well, this hasn’t happened for a while (early 15th century, I think?). I have to wonder what’s going on behind the scenes - you’d think that if he’d held on this long through the pedophile priest scandal he wouldn’t duck out now. Papal resignation is so rare, and the Vatican’s handled popes with health issues before… really curious.

5 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 4:50:16am

There’s also a facebook campaign with several pictures of him in Nazi youth regalia giving the nazi salute etc.

6 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 5:43:15am

He’s stated before, back in the days when he was plain ol’ Cardinal Ratzinger, that his view was that when a Pope is no longer capable, either physically or mentally, of carrying out his duties of office, then that Pope should resign.

I completely agree with him on that, if nothing else.

7 JeffFX  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 5:51:26am

There’s talk that his successor could be Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson. I expect this would ratchet up the hatred of Catholics and the end-of-the-world talk among the wingnut crowd due to his skin-tone.

8 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:04:06am

Wow did not see that coming.

9 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:05:28am

re: #7 JeffFX

There’s talk that his successor could be Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson. I expect this would ratchet up the hatred of Catholics and the end-of-the-world talk among the wingnut crowd due to his skin-tone.

I’m quite sure it would.

ZOMG! A BLACK POPE! SHURLY THE END IZ NEAR!1!

10 Jimmah  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:18:18am

re: #7 JeffFX

Antichrist alert:

In October 2011 Cardinal Turkson called for the establishment of a “global public authority” and a “central world bank” to rule over financial institutions that have become outdated and often ineffective in dealing fairly with crises.

11 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:32:08am

This just in….

Senator Lindsey Graham says he will put a “hold” on any Vatican plans to confirm a successor to Pope Benedict XVI until David Petreus Hilary Clinton Leon Panetta the current pontiff provides “more information” on the Benghazi attacks.

Developing…

12 SpaceJesus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:30:19am

I hope he comes out as an athiest

13 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:30:21am

Why do people write such gigantic paragraphs?

14 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:31:00am

Damn, guess we’ll have to retire the “Nazi Pope” jokes.

//

15 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:31:53am

re: #5 Randall Gross

There’s also a facebook campaign with several pictures of him in Nazi youth regalia giving the nazi salute etc.

He was a child back then and all the kids were forced in to join without them understanding what they were doing.

16 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:31:53am

Need a new pope? Why not Zoidberg?

17 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:32:50am

re: #1 Bulworth

And he just got on Twitter…

I question the timing. /

18 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:33:39am

It’s gotta be the Twitter thing:

“It’s driving me crazy. Ever since I signed up I’m getting all these wacky, inane messages from people in America signing themselves as TGDN. What the hell is that all about?”

19 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:34:39am

re: #18 Bulworth

It’s gotta be the Twitter thing:

“It’s driving me crazy. Ever since I signed up I’m getting all these wacky, inane messages from people in America signing themselves as TGDN. What the hell is that all about?”

He signed up for Twitter and subsequently lost all faith in humanity.

20 darthstar  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:35:58am

He’s just giving up the Church for Lent.

21 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:36:16am

re: #19 Targetpractice

It happens..

22 darthstar  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:37:00am

re: #13 Gus

Why do people write such gigantic paragraphs?

Talk to Faulkner.

23 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:39:11am
However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel…

bark? A typo? Unfamiliar with this example of RCC slang.

24 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:40:42am

According to Malachy, the next Pope will be “Peter the Roman.”

First Gypsy Pope!

25 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:41:03am

re: #23 Bulworth

bark? A typo? Unfamiliar with this example of RCC slang.

Bark is a fishing boat.

26 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:41:39am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

Bark is a fishing boat.

Also sometimes spelled barque.

27 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:41:53am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

Thanks

28 darthstar  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:42:21am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

Bark is a fishing boat.

Fishers of men and all that…today we call it trolling.

29 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:42:35am

OT. Check out these losers: Armed Pro-Gun Protesters Occupy Oregon State Capitol What are they like anarchist guns nuts or something?

30 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:43:13am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

Bark is a fishing boat.

Image: 12396391-bark-boat-in-the-water-close-up.jpg
:)

31 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:44:02am
32 geoffm33  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:44:32am

re: #7 JeffFX

There’s talk that his successor could be Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson. I expect this would ratchet up the hatred of Catholics and the end-of-the-world talk among the wingnut crowd due to his skin-tone.

I become less and less religious with each passing day, but this would be great!

33 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:46:45am

re: #29 Gus

OT. Check out these losers: Armed Pro-Gun Protesters Occupy Oregon State Capitol What are they like anarchist guns nuts or something?

[Link: photos.oregonlive.com…]
Paulians..

34 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:48:16am

What’s driving the retirement/resignation? Being overwhelmed by the duties/rigors and that his health really is more of an issue than he was willing to let on? A realization and admission that he always considered himself a caretaker/placeholder Pope for the College of Cardinals to have time to figure out a successor to Pope John Paul II? Or, were the scandals involving several of diocese around the world finally catching up with him and the church and now was the time to get out of the way before even more bad news came down?

I actually think it was the caretaker/placeholder role he put for himself and that his health is in worse shape than he was willing to let on. He saw up close how JPII’s health declined in his later years and that it wasn’t helping the Church’s larger mission. Retiring as it were could resolve a few of those issues, and perhaps set precedence in a way that the Pope should be younger and have an upper retirement age so that the position remains one with a vigorous pontiff.

35 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:48:25am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

[Link: photos.oregonlive.com…]
Paulians..

Yep. Was looking there. Can’t stand those slides shows that loads up a new page for every image.

36 Inner Partisan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:48:45am

Apparently 10 years ago, when he was just a lowly cardinal and head of The Inquisition the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Ratzinger already requested Jon Paul II to let him resign due to his age. He was 75 back then.
So… I guess at least on this one he’s consistent?

37 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:49:09am
38 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:49:58am

re: #36 Inner Partisan

Yeah, Benny was no Spring chicken to start with.

39 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:51:16am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Still seeing headlines like this today
Say What?! Ex-LAPD Cop Christopher Dorner Will Be America’s 1st Drone Target On U.S. Soil!

Sources are calling Dorner’s situation one of “domestic terrorism,” to justify the use of the drones.”

Derp.

40 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:52:23am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Still seeing headlines like this today
Say What?! Ex-LAPD Cop Christopher Dorner Will Be America’s 1st Drone Target On U.S. Soil!

Well, yeah, if you are looking for silly sites like that one. “The world according to hip-pop”.

Yeah, totally credible.

41 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:52:35am

more on the coming conclave here

[Link: tv.msnbc.com…]

42 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:53:04am

re: #16 erik_t

Need a new pope? Why not Zoidberg?

Pope Bender I might be a better match.

43 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:53:28am

re: #39 Gus

Sources are calling Dorner’s situation one of “domestic terrorism,” to justify the use of the drones.”

Derp.

Some police spokesman used the term “terrorism” in a statement and it has some people all worked up.
LAPD: Dorner is ‘domestic terrorist’

44 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:54:23am

Next pope could be a Canadian

I think he would look great with a hockey stick.

Image: hockey_pope.jpg

45 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:54:27am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Some of the drone talk is just nutty.

Drones are less expensive to operate than helicopters, which many police departments and law enforcement agencies already operate. The difference between the helicopter flying with a sniper on board and a drone? The guy operating the drone is doing so from a trailer somewhere, while the helicopter is flying overhead.

I do get that there are things that helicopters can do things that drones can’t (like rescue operations or moving manpower during natural disasters), but drones can serve a purpose and if the localities put in place restrictions on how they can be used (restrict use of armaments), then the drones aren’t exactly breaking new ground. Outright bans don’t make sense, particularly when it’s cheaper to operate the drone to do recon work (like tracking traffic problems or suspects in vehicles) than to get a helicopter up with its crew. When costs come into play, the bans would mean the police departments have to incur higher costs when there’s a less costly alternative available.

46 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:55:06am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Some police spokesman used the term “terrorism” in a statement and it has some people all worked up.
LAPD: Dorner is ‘domestic terrorist’

Couple of weeks ago everyone was calling guns crimes terrorism. What happened? They change their mind or something?

47 Inner Partisan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:56:01am

re: #41 Randall Gross

Speaking of which: A fucking conclave just at the end of awards season? The irony is delicious - and TV execs the world over are probably perpetually creaming their pants today.

48 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:56:41am

re: #40 Varek Raith

Well, yeah, if you are looking for silly sites like that one. “The world according to hip-pop”.

Yeah, totally credible.

Global Grind is popular with the hip-hop crowd and the majority share holder is Russell Simmons. Yeah, it’s silly but it gets a lot of views.

49 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 7:57:42am

What Hitchens said regarding this pope:

[Link: www.slate.com…]

50 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:00:43am

Just a minor point: while only cardinals get a vote in the conclave, the pope does not have to be a cardinal. Oh, he probably will be, but it’s a fun peculiarity to keep in mind.

51 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:02:43am

The Pope is actually stepping down over the fact that Maker’s Mark is reducing its potency by 3 points (46 to 43% ABV).

52 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:03:29am

re: #51 lawhawk

The Pope is actually stepping down over the fact that Maker’s Mark is reducing its potency by 3 points (46 to 43% ABV).

The bastards! /

53 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:05:33am

re: #46 Gus

Couple of weeks ago everyone was calling guns crimes terrorism. What happened? They change their mind or something?

I’m pretty sure the police statement was using the term “terrorism” loosely but they shouldn’t have given the paranoid anti-cop crowd the ammunition to freak out. It was a poor choice of words but I think it’s unlikely they are going to start treating this as a terrorist case.

54 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:06:56am

re: #42 Feline Fearless Leader

Pope Bender I might be a better match.

Forget it, I’ll found my own church! With blackjack, and hookers! In fact, forget the church!

55 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:06:59am

I guess it’s true what they say:

Heavy is the head that wears the really goofy and flamboyant 3 foot tall gold and white hat thingy

56 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:08:17am

The Flying Rooster proves even weird planes (except Iran’s new stealth fighter jet) can fly

Designed by Italian aircraft designer and builder Ottone Baggio, the “Aerogallo” made its first flight on Dec. 26, 2011. Since then, the Rooster plane, in the hands of test pilot Daniele Beltrame, has become one of the highlights of last airshow season in Italy.

57 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:08:32am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty sure the police statement was using the term “terrorism” loosely but they shouldn’t have given the paranoid anti-cop crowd the ammunition to freak out. It was a poor choice of words but I think it’s unlikely they are going to start treating this as a terrorist case.

Yeah, don’t see that happening either. It’s basically a fugitive case now and I’m still banking on them finding his body somewhere in the woods. If ever.

58 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:10:55am

I certainly hope that the only reason the Pope is resigning is health. If so, nice move…..more Popes and other “elected for life” types should resign when their effective years are done.

However, I suspect there is more. There smoking gun on the priest pedophiles is getting closer and closer to the Pope and there is a lawsuit in the US that may force those records open. Pardon me for cynicism but I think he is waltzing while the getting is good.

59 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:14:54am

re: #39 Gus

Sources are calling Dorner’s situation one of “domestic terrorism,” to justify the use of the drones.”

Derp.

But really, other than not being manned by actual people inside, how is the drone that much different than a helicopter doing the job?

60 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:15:30am

re: #59 Eventual Carrion

But really, other than not being manned by actual people inside, how is the drone that much different than a helicopter doing the job?

See also, too: Predators and F-16s.

61 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:17:41am

Also hearing that True The Vote will travel to the Vatican to demand photo ID’s from each of the Cardinals before they are allowed to go into Conclave.

“There’s all sorts of voter fraud at these so-called conclaves”, said a spokesperson for the American group. “In fact, way too many Cardinals are allowed to vote” TTV continued.

//

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:17:49am

re: #59 Eventual Carrion

But really, other than not being manned by actual people inside, how is the drone that much different than a helicopter doing the job?

I think it’s just an irrational human instinct. The fear of new technology is understandable in some cases but it’s even stronger with people who are politically paranoid and scared.

63 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:18:18am

(Yes, he’s THAT Godwin)

64 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:19:02am

re: #59 Eventual Carrion

But really, other than not being manned by actual people inside, how is the drone that much different than a helicopter doing the job?

Not much. They seem to think they’re going to send up a Predator drone armed with 2 500 lbs. Hellfire missiles and blow up Dorner to smithereens once they find him. That’s not going to happen. Surveillance drones area a reality and people are fooling themselves if they think they’ll stop that. If people do think that law enforcement will use armed drones then why have they not been using armed choppers? They haven’t so there’s nor precedent for that.

65 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:19:38am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

I think it’s just an irrational human instinct. The fear of new technology is understandable in some cases but it’s even stronger with people who are politically paranoid and scared.

We must stop cops from using lighter than air dirigibles! //

66 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:20:26am

re: #59 Eventual Carrion

But really, other than not being manned by actual people inside, how is the drone that much different than a helicopter doing the job?

I think the big thing with drones is that they blur the line between a human taking the “kill decision” and a computer. Now, this line is already blurred in a very similar (some would say identical) way whenever you have computer-assisted targeting, or indeed any technological assistance. But drones illustrate the blurring in a fairly dramatic way, so they become a lightning rod for that debate.

67 Inner Partisan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:21:40am
68 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:22:50am

10 bucks says that more than half of these people don’t even know what an aileron is.

69 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:23:37am

re: #65 Gus

We must stop cops from using lighter than air dirigibles! //

I realize you’re being sarcastic here, but it’s worth figuring out whether there’s a point at which technology-assisted killing becomes unacceptable (i.e., the level of technological assistance, or reduction of human agency).

70 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:24:31am

re: #66 iossarian

I think the big thing with drones is that they blur the line between a human taking the “kill decision” and a computer. Now, this line is already blurred in a very similar (some would say identical) way whenever you have computer-assisted targeting, or indeed any technological assistance. But drones illustrate the blurring in a fairly dramatic way, so they become a lightning rod for that debate.

Computers do not make that decision. The kill decision is still handled by people on the ground.

71 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:24:54am

Anyone ready to bet on the next Pope?

Who will be the next pope? Bookies have got their odds ready

Paddy Power odds Next Pope
9/4 Cardinal Peter Turkson
5/2 Cardinal Marc Ouellet
7/2 Cardinal Francis Arinze
7/1 Archbishop Angelo Scola
10/1 Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga
12/1 Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone
14/1 Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco
16/1 Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio
20/1 Cardinal Leonardo Sandri
25/1 Cardinal Raymond Burke
25/1 Cardinal Cladio Hummes
25/1 Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi
25/1 Cardinal Christoph von Schonborn
33/1 Cardinal Wilfrid Napier
33/1 Cardinal William Levada
33/1 Cardinal Camillo Ruini
33/1 Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera
33/1 Cardinal Francisco Javier Errazuriz Ossa
33/1 Cardinal Renato Martino
33/1 Cardinal Albert Malcolm Ranjith
33/1 Archbishop Piero Marini
33/1 Cardinal Antonio Canizares Llovera
33/1 Cardinal Keith O’Brien

72 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:25:03am

re: #66 iossarian

I think the big thing with drones is that they blur the line between a human taking the “kill decision” and a computer.

No, they don’t. Not in any meaningful sense. They’re still being operated by humans on a 1:1 basis.

73 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:25:08am

re: #68 Gus

10 bucks says that more than half of these people don’t even know what an aileron is.

Sure they do. It’s the missing link between dinosaurs and mankind. /

74 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:27:52am

re: #7 JeffFX

There’s talk that his successor could be Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson. I expect this would ratchet up the hatred of Catholics and the end-of-the-world talk among the wingnut crowd due to his skin-tone.

Not a chance, IMO. There was talk about an African or South American Pope when John Paul II died because of the resurgence of the Church in those areas. Didn’t happen. Ratzinger got the nod instead. Since then, he’s installed cardinals that are just as traditionalist and conservative as he is.

No way will the next Pope be anything other than an old white guy from Europe.

75 Inner Partisan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:28:03am

re: #66 iossarian

I don’t see how that line’s being blurred - after all, those drones are still piloted by humans, if remotely.
What I see as the biggest ethical problem of armed drones (leaving aside political questions of when and where to use them, which are not exclusive to drones) is that they act as a further layer of separation between the pilot and the “kill”.

76 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:28:18am
77 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:31:23am

re: #72 erik_t

No, they don’t. Not in any meaningful sense. They’re still being operated by humans on a 1:1 basis.

I realize this. (Please consider this to be my response to the other comments making similar points above, btw).

My point is not that drones are particularly different from other contemporary technologies in the distance they place between the killer and the target. My point is that they illustrate this distance quite clearly, and the distance makes people uncomfortable.

Besides, it’s not as if it’s difficult or far-fetched to imagine that technological advances could quite rapidly decrease that 1:1 ratio substantially - is that something we would be comfortable with?

78 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:32:49am

Interesting points about Egypt from someone who ought to know:

79 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:33:12am

*headdesk*

81 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:34:45am

re: #77 iossarian

I realize this. (Please consider this to be my response to the other comments making similar points above, btw).

My point is not that drones are particularly different from other contemporary technologies in the distance they place between the killer and the target. My point is that they illustrate this distance quite clearly, and the distance makes people uncomfortable.

Besides, it’s not as if it’s difficult or far-fetched to imagine that technological advances could quite rapidly decrease that 1:1 ratio substantially - is that something we would be comfortable with?

Arguably, the drone pilots are closer to their targets than the guys dropping bombs from B-17s were.

82 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:35:18am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Christopher Dorner becomes drone target as $1,000,000 reward offered
With bonus visual aid
Image: 1360593882_4046_Predator_and_Hellfire.jpg

They are talking about surveillance drones.

83 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:36:18am
84 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:37:04am

re: #81 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Arguably, the drone pilots are closer to their targets than the guys dropping bombs from B-17s were.

We live in a world in which we still fire artillery from ten miles away. In which we still drop iron bombs, and retain the capability to lay mines at land and at sea.

Human-controlled drones firing guided munitions don’t even register.

85 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:38:00am

re: #81 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Arguably, the drone pilots are closer to their targets than the guys dropping bombs from B-17s were.

Yes, but we’re talking about people’s perceptions. We’ve had this argument before and I’m not particularly interested in revisiting it. My explanation for why people*
are uncomfortable with drones is that they see in them an unacceptable distance placed between the target and an essentially bureaucratic decision-maker.

The guys in B-17s got shot down too. Distance in this case isn’t necessarily a straightforward physical metric.

* You know, the folks who think Obama’s a communist and that we’d be just fine if the government just spend no more money than it has in the bank.

86 Inner Partisan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:38:12am

re: #77 iossarian

My point is not that drones are particularly different from other contemporary technologies in the distance they place between the killer and the target. My point is that they illustrate this difference quite clearly, and the distance makes people uncomfortable.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, I absolutely agree. I’d also like to add that this distance has a direct impact on the killer/the pilot. Basically, the more abstracted your target becomes, the more willing you are to pull the trigger. This effect is already very prominent in modern fighter jets/helicopters; when all you see of your target is a blurry FLIR image.
Drones remove the immediate danger of death for the pilot, making this effect much more pronounced.

87 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:40:51am

There are “4,100 active nuclear warheads and some 17,000 total nuclear warheads” in this world and people are worried about drones.

88 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:40:57am

Sorry for the early OT, but does anyone around here know why the adoption tax credit was made non-refundable in the most recent fiscal deal? A friend of mine who just recently adopted is ranting about this on her FB page.

The credit was made permanent in the deal, but you can’t get any money back from it. Anyone know why?

89 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:48:09am

I think part of the negative emotional reaction to the drones has a lot to do with how they look and their name. They appear to be windowless, which creates the perception of being without “eyes”, blind. Add to that that the first thing most people probably think of when they hear the word “drone” is a mindless worker bee, therefore drone = blind, mindless killing machine.

No, none of the above is rational, but emotions by definition aren’t.

Just my $0.02. Relurking…

90 Jolo5309  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:48:23am

re: #71 NJDhockeyfan

Anyone ready to bet on the next Pope?

Who will be the next pope? Bookies have got their odds ready

Dammit, I am still not in the running, what does a man have to do to be elected Pope?

91 Inner Partisan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:50:05am

re: #87 Gus

There are “4,100 active nuclear warheads and some 17,000 total nuclear warheads” in this world and people are worried about drones.

Sorry, but this sounds like a military-themed rephrasing of the (foolish) “1st World Problems”-meme.
Just because there are graver threats and ethical challenges than armed drones doesn’t mean there should be no debate about them.

92 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:50:32am

re: #71 NJDhockeyfan

Anyone ready to bet on the next Pope?

Who will be the next pope? Bookies have got their odds ready

Repeating myself from downstairs — Pope Kanye or GTFO. The Twitter meltdowns will be hilarious. And legendary.

93 Gus  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:50:37am

OK, I’m out.

94 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:54:13am

re: #92 Lidane

Repeating myself from downstairs — Pope Kanye or GTFO. The Twitter meltdowns will be hilarious. And legendary.

The Pope is a ni -CLANG!

95 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:56:16am

Chechnya’s Kadyrov calls for crackdown on sorcery

Sorcerers, psychics, and faith healers may be on the way out in Chechnya, where the leader of the mountainous, overwhelmingly Muslim region in Russia’s Caucasus has ordered a crackdown on the practices.

Kremlin-backed strongman Ramzan Kadyrov called on Chechens to steer clear of “charlatans” claiming to have magic powers, whom he accused of exploiting people’s sufferings for money.

Kadyrov said at a meeting with municipal leaders in Grozny, the capital, on Saturday that “turning to wizards and false healers won’t bring them any relief and is banned by Islam,” according to a statement from the Chechen government. He went on to threaten that anyone engaging in such practices would feel the force of the region’s feared security services.

Harry Potter should scratch Chechnya off his list of vacation spots.

96 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:57:15am

re: #94 Dr Lizardo

The Pope is a ni -CLANG!

Hedley: What’s your specialty?
Jim: Stampeding cattle.
Hedley: What’s so special about that?
Jim: Through the Vatican?
Hedley: Kinky!

97 Robur  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:58:34am

….So Long and thanks for all the Fish!….

98 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:58:55am

Landmines are actually a great thing to bring up in relation to drones. Landmines, and our use and export of them, bring about shitloads of deaths and maimings every year, almost exclusively of non-combatants. They require no human agency once set and there’s obviously a huge distance emotionally between setting them and them actually going off. Likely, the person setting the mine will never know if someone was killed or maimed by it.

99 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:59:30am

Cue the ZOMG OUTRAGE:

100 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:59:38am

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

Hedley: What’s your specialty?
Jim: Stampeding cattle.
Hedley: What’s so special about that?
Jim: Through the Vatican?
Hedley: Kinky!

LOL. Another great bit of dialogue from Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor.

101 Robur  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:00:13am

I nominate Father Guido Sarducci for the next Pope. and he should take the name of Father Mazeratti of Our lady of the Burnt Clutch

102 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:07:08am

re: #98 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Indeed, and it’s notable that there is significant domestic and international opposition to landmines, which has resulted in the US partially reducing its use of them, specifically so-called “persistent” (i.e., traditional) devices.

103 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:09:38am

re: #102 iossarian

Sure. Which is why it’s good to have concern over the usage of drones, but silly to pretend they present a paradigm shift in involvement in killing.

Not saying you were doing that.

104 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:09:58am

re: #101 Robur

I nominate Father Guido Sarducci for the next Pope. and he should take the name of Father Mazeratti of Our lady of the Burnt Clutch

I second it! He does a great interview too…

Jerry Garcia interviewed by Father Guido Sarducci

105 William of Orange  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:12:18am

He must have seen how our beloved Queen Beatrix handled a situation like this.

106 Robur  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:14:45am

re: #104 NJDhockeyfan

Way back in the 80’s I went to a few Haloween parties as the honorable Guido S. I pulled it off since I look so much like him..And Frank Zappa too

107 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:17:06am

re: #95 NJDhockeyfan

Chechnya’s Kadyrov calls for crackdown on sorcery

Harry Potter should scratch Chechnya off his list of vacation spots.

And all of Africa with all the witch burning going on there.
Though, those a mostly Christians doing it.
I guess that doesn’t count.

108 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:22:54am

20 dead kids = the “Connecticut effect”:

109 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:25:08am

re: #108 Lidane

20 dead kids = the “Connecticut effect”:

They’re just fucking trolling us now.

What loathsome people.

110 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:26:13am

Furore as Iran ambassador is caught on video ‘high-fiving’ female German MP

Claudia Roth has been an ardent critic of Iran, especially over its treatment of women, while religious custom dictates that Ali Reza Sheik Attar, the Iranian ambassador, should not shake hands with a woman.

But this failed to prevent the two from slapping palms as Ms Roth passed a grinning and seated ambassador during a security conference in Munich.

The snippet of footage of the high-five has received widespread coverage in the German press, and left both parties red-faced, as spokesmen sought to explain the unusual encounter.

“The ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Iran never shakes hands with a woman, and he has never shaken Claudia Roth’s hand either,” a spokesman for the Iranian embassy told the Suddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.

112 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:34:15am

That asteroid that’ll pass us on the 15th will miss us by 15 mins.

113 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:35:06am

It’s a conspiracy!

114 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:36:13am

re: #112 Varek Raith

That asteroid that’ll pass be on the 15th will miss us by 15 mins.

…and 17,200 miles. That’s mighty close.

115 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:36:43am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

It’s a conspiracy!

Actually, it’s a fair question.

Sure, health reasons, including Ratzinger being told not to travel, are the primary reason why he’s stepping down. But a Pope hasn’t resigned or abdicated in centuries. People are naturally going to wonder why.

116 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:37:35am

re: #114 NJDhockeyfan

…and 17,200 miles. That’s mighty close.

It’s a city killer.

If it were to impact Earth, it is estimated that it would enter the atmosphere at 12.7 km/s with the kinetic energy of 3.5 megatons of TNT,[4] and produce an air burst with the equivalent of 2.9 megatons of TNT[14] at an altitude of roughly 8.5 kilometers (28,000 ft).[14] The Tunguska event has been estimated at 3−20 megatons.[15] Asteroids about 50 meters in diameter are expected to impact Earth once every 1200 years or so.[16] Such an impact could be a city-killer, as asteroids larger than 35 meters across can pose a threat to a town or city.[17]

117 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:37:48am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

It’s a conspiracy!

You know, I don’t like the pope, I don’t like the Catholic Church (as an organization, not as a body of worshippers), but if the guy is retiring for some medical reason that should be private. There is no sufficient public interest in why he feels too weak to continue.

Piers Morgan is always a poisonous little crapper; even when he’s talking about issues I like I want him to shut up because he’s so odious to me.

118 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:39:44am

re: #116 Varek Raith

It’s a city killer.

On the plus side, the city could be rebuilt if desired. It’s not like it would leave a poisonous hellscape akin to a similarly-sized nuclear blast.

119 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:39:53am

re: #115 Lidane

I really disagree. That a pope hasn’t done it in forever more shows a change in the papacy into a very involved modern form of pope and away from a cloistered form, and I think that privacy should be upheld for medical issues strongly. There is a lot at stake in keeping medical issues a very private matter.

120 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:43:18am

I don’t care why he is retiring.
He feels the time is now.
Who am I to argue?
;)

121 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:43:27am

The pope is 85 years old. He is sickly. He can’t travel internationally. He saw what happened to John Paul II’s legacy as he hung on even when he was clearly too feeble to meaningfully contribute in many areas. I do not get why there is any supposed mystery about a sickly 85 year old guy retiring from what must be a hell of a stressful job, especially one who, previous to getting this job, already wanted to retire.

122 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:44:48am

My mom keeps trying to convince me & Zedushka that our next vacation should be a cruise. I think I would just rather visit my kids in Florida.

123 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:45:38am

re: #119 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Except that with the child rape scandals of recent years and the near total collapse of the Church in Europe because of it, people are simply not going to accept that health is the only reason he’s resigning. FFS, the Los Angeles archdiocese is doing a fundraiser to pay off abuse victims. And that’s just one out of many that have been rocked by scandal. New converts are down. The priesthood is in serious decline.

Given all that, questions are just to be expected.

124 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:45:44am

Wait, is that stock photo of the cruise ship in front of the WTC?

ITZ A CONSPIRIACY!1!

125 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:46:12am

re: #124 Vicious Babushka

Wait, is that stock photo of the cruise ship in front of the WTC?

Just about to say something about that…

126 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:47:36am

Ok, limited access to hot foods I can understand.
But bathrooms?

127 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:47:58am

re: #12 SpaceJesus

I hope he comes out as an athiest

He can’t. Richard Dawkins is the athiest. The rest of us are somewhat less athy.

128 Stephen T.  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:48:35am

re: #15 NJDhockeyfan

He was a child back then and all the kids were forced in to join without them understanding what they were doing.

Not all kids were forced to join. I have family that were children in Germany during the Third Reich, none of them joined the party, none of them joined the Hitler-Jugend. The one that was involved in scouting declined to change over to the Hitler-Jugend when the scout organization was dissolved.

Joining the Nazi Party was a choice, it was always a choice, no one was forced. It was also exclusive, there were some who wished to join who couldn’t because of who they were related too.

129 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:51:05am

re: #123 Lidane

I don’t get why ‘people’ aren’t. Sure, those are all reasons why he doesn’t want to stay on, but this is happening in the context of John Paul II grimly, slowly dying while causing people to murmuring question his decisions based on his obvious disability. He’s just been told he can’t travel internationally. And most of all, he already wanted to resign before he became pope.

Obviously some are going to come up with their own theories but I hope that most people will see both that the most obvious explanation is exactly what he said— he feels like crap, his mind is beginning to go, and it’s time for him to give it up before he starts screwing it up— and that by trying to intrude we’re violating medical privacy, which is a very important right to uphold.

130 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:51:46am

Waaay OT

Watch live Landsat space launch if you like
[Link: www.wired.com…]

131 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:51:59am

I wonder if it’s even the least bit possible for me to become Pope. Were there any people who converted to Catholicism late in life (after 50) who became Pope?

I don’t believe the religion, but I love the lifestyle! I’d love to have some Swiss Guards around me all the time. And the clothes!

132 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:52:06am

re: #63 Interesting Times

Nothing in Adolf Hitler’s reign as Führer became him like the leaving of it.

Sorry, I had to

133 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:52:30am

re: #50 kirkspencer

Just a minor point: while only cardinals get a vote in the conclave, the pope does not have to be a cardinal. Oh, he probably will be, but it’s a fun peculiarity to keep in mind.

The position is sorta like Speaker of the House that way.

I wonder if any of the cardinals are prepared to vote for Allen West for pope.

134 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:52:50am

re: #128 Stephen T.

It’s a choice made in the context of strong propaganda and a lot of coercion. The Germans shot a fuckload of Germans for being traitors or anarchists etc. His actual views on stuff in the modern day are horrible enough, as are the extremist sects. I’d rather not use the same point of attack that the right-wingers use on Soros against him, it’s incredibly distasteful.

135 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:53:23am
136 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:53:28am

re: #131 ReamWorks SKG

I wonder if it’s even the least bit possible for me to become Pope. Were there any people who converted to Catholicism late in life (after 50) who became Pope?

I don’t believe the religion, but I love the lifestyle! I’d love to have some Swiss Guards around me all the time. And the clothes!

You have the smile to be a great pope, man. You’d spread some sunlight, and how many people can say that they’ve heard a pope slam out a sonata? I’m vote for you oh wait.

137 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:53:38am
138 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:54:04am

re: #137 Interesting Times

Now that’s fucking funny.

139 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:54:26am

A cute little bunny rabbit should be next Pope, just like the first one.

140 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:55:23am

Maybe he’ll be like Sarah Palin….he wants to become a Fox news commentator.

141 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 9:58:47am

re: #112 Varek Raith

That asteroid that’ll pass us on the 15th will miss us by 15 mins.

So let’s hope it doesn’t decide to stop for a cup of coffee on the way.

142 dragonfire1981  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:01:00am

re: #92 Lidane

Repeating myself from downstairs — Pope Kanye or GTFO. The Twitter meltdowns will be hilarious. And legendary.

“Imma let you finish but Jesus had the best crucifixion ever yo!”

143 dragonfire1981  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:01:50am
144 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:02:43am

re: #129 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Personally, I don’t give a damn why he’s resigning. I stopped going to church decades ago. However, let’s face it — the initial reaction is going to be that his resignation is somehow connected to the scandals of recent years.

OTOH, this vacancy opens the door for new blood in the Vatican. New ideas won’t happen anytime in the next few centuries, but getting someone younger might be interesting.

145 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:02:57am

re: #72 erik_t

No, they don’t. Not in any meaningful sense. They’re still being operated by humans on a 1:1 basis.

I worry about drones because:

a) as we’ve seen this last week, if the police get jumpy or go glory hound and fire on cars and people who aren’t the same make/model/race as the suspect, imagine if you have weaponized drones operated by a human who falls into the same trap.

b) it’s not a stretch to imagine the justification for using drones on a man hunt for a domestic ‘terrorist’ to become a justification to arm the drones and use them without regard to due process.

Maybe I’m a tin foil hatter on this but I never want to see militarization of our police force. We’ve got way too much militarization in our police force already.

146 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:05:52am

Hey all!

I hope they elect a Pope that will be less conservative, but I’m not holding my breathe. I think it would be a good thing.

It’s blustery and I still have a headache.

you?

147 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:06:07am

re: #145 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

We are dealing with a clear and present thret, not a “potential” or “suspected” threat: I believe that anything that can help get Dorner off the streets is justifiable at this point.

148 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:07:02am

re: #143 dragonfire1981

This is HILARIOUS!

149 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:08:32am

re: #66 iossarian

I think the big thing with drones is that they blur the line between a human taking the “kill decision” and a computer. Now, this line is already blurred in a very similar (some would say identical) way whenever you have computer-assisted targeting, or indeed any technological assistance. But drones illustrate the blurring in a fairly dramatic way, so they become a lightning rod for that debate.

As far as I know, aren’t the drones controlled remotely? There is still a human in control of the aircraft, and I would assume in control of the firing button?

150 dragonfire1981  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:10:03am

re: #148 ReamWorks SKG

This is HILARIOUS!

I know. As someone who HATES HOAs with a passion, it brought a big smile to my face.

151 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:10:42am

The next pope will likely be much closer to a strict constructionist/originalist than he will be a living and breathing church doctrinaire. If you’re the Defender of the Faith, that’s the only way you would get picked - you’re not going to engage in major shifts in doctrine and policy.

It’s in the Church’s DNA and institutional organization of the College of Cardinals. They’re not going to pick someone who will stray from current policy. They might push a candidate who is seen as better for outreach to certain communities or to address a specific issue, but the incoming pope will have a bunch of stuff on their plate, starting with the ongoing church sex abuse scandals and a declining population in Europe while growth in Africa and Central/South America isn’t reflected in who has a chance for the papacy.

152 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:11:27am

re: #122 Vicious Babushka

My mom keeps trying to convince me & Zedushka that our next vacation should be a cruise. I think I would just rather visit my kids in Florida.

And they’ll soon be bored of that diet of 3rd class passengers.
//

153 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:11:33am

re: #70 Gus

Computers do not make that decision. The kill decision is still handled by people on the ground.

Yes, that was my thought. These are not autonomous wandering machines. They are controlled by humans so the difference between helicopter and drones only seems to be the location of the (still human) operator/pilot.

154 Mattand  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:11:56am

re: #144 Lidane

Personally, I don’t give a damn why he’s resigning. I stopped going to church decades ago. However, let’s face it — the initial reaction is going to be that his resignation is somehow connected to the scandals of recent years.

OTOH, this vacancy opens the door for new blood in the Vatican. New ideas won’t happen anytime in the next few centuries, but getting someone younger might be interesting.

It took the Vatican half a millennium to acknowledge that “Yeah, maybe we were a little hard on Galileo.” They’re so mired in child sex abuse cases that even Jerry Sandusky would be taken aback (or would apply to the seminary).

And as I said earlier, Ratzinger made JP2 look a like a hippie.

They’re just like the Republicans: do anything but actually change the policies that are hurtling you towards your own doom.

155 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:13:00am
156 sagehen  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:13:39am

re: #147 Sol Berdinowitz

We are dealing with a clear and present thret, not a “potential” or “suspected” threat: I believe that anything that can help get Dorner off the streets is justifiable at this point.

A threat located in a place our police can get to. The whole point of drones is for where our cops and military can’t go, and the locals won’t.

157 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:14:24am

Because this has worked out so well for California:

158 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:14:25am

re: #147 Sol Berdinowitz

We are dealing with a clear and present thret, not a “potential” or “suspected” threat: I believe that anything that can help get Dorner off the streets is justifiable at this point.

That is the WORST and most dangerous justification you can have. First and foremost, we haven’t declared a state of emergency or war. That means the constitution isn’t suspended. Second, this is a single man. America didn’t become paralyzed after Eric Robert Rudolph. We didn’t justify police firing at random innocent people without warning or any attempt to apprehend. They were trying to kill people, with reckless disregard.

We do NOT need that in America. ever.

159 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:14:45am

re: #150 dragonfire1981

I live in a HOA area, and we had a bunch of lawsuits over action taken by an earlier board of trustees over sales of portion of property for development. Because NJ amended the law on HOAs, it was something of an issue, and it turns out that the HOA was grandfathered so the modified statutes didn’t apply.

So, when the new housing units are eventually built, they get the option to opt out - something that folks in the existing HOA don’t get a choice with.

That said, having the HOA has its perks. No McMansions or overdevelopment and housing remains in a generally consistent period style (which for us is national historic landmark), and they do provide nice parks, pools, and other services. Going through a HOA to do exterior work can be a pain, and they restrict signage in our HOA even more than VA - no political signs at all, nor signs for stuff like yard sales or home sales. I’d really like to see those change.

160 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:15:06am

re: #146 FemNaziBitch

Hey all!

I hope they elect a Pope that will be less conservative, but I’m not holding my breathe. I think it would be a good thing.

It’s blustery and I still have a headache.

you?

View out the window here right now and a uniform blanket gray. Can barely make out the outline of the buildings two blocks away. Visibility a bit better at ground level though. Not currently raining though.

161 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:16:00am

re: #160 Feline Fearless Leader

View out the window here right now and a uniform blanket gray. Can barely make out the outline of the buildings two blocks away. Visibility a bit better at ground level though. Not currently raining though.

definitely hibernation weather, IMHO.

162 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:16:18am

Major security step up at the Navy bases where I work. All the gate guards are wearing the heavier body armor and at least half of them had rifles. I’m guessing because of Dorner’s ties to the Navy.

163 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:17:08am

Drone going after Dorner?

how many civilians has he hurt?

How many have the cops hurt in hunting him?

164 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:17:23am

re: #161 FemNaziBitch

definitely hibernation weather, IMHO.

Good idea. But I have to bake a carrot cake for a work event tomorrow. Need to do a bit of last minute ingredient shopping. And will probably miss the opportunity to go play cribbage tonight as well.

165 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:17:36am

re: #159 lawhawk

Interesting they can restrict political signs, which have more leeway thanfor sale signs.

166 gwangung  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:17:45am

re: #163 FemNaziBitch

Drone going after Dorner?

how many civilians has he hurt?

Two killed.

167 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:18:54am

Benedict is resigning - word is the workload left him totally poped.

168 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:19:02am

re: #163 FemNaziBitch

Unarmed
surveillance drones are effectively the same thing as a search helicopter, IMHO. They may revolutionize search for rescue in our mountains and deserts too.

169 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:19:42am

re: #168 Political Atheist


Unarmed
surveillance drones are effectively the same thing as a search helicopter, IMHO. They may revolutionize search for rescue in our mountains and deserts too.

ah!

170 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:19:46am

re: #167 SidewaysQuark

Benedict is resigning - word is the workload left him totally poped.

Covering for pedophiles and shuffling around money to do it is hard.

171 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:21:00am

re: #170 Kragar

Covering for pedophiles and shuffling around money to do it is hard.

He’s taking the fall for a lot of dead weigh in the infrastructure-maybe?

It runs deep in the Vatican.

172 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:21:51am

The Dorner-drone thing is spreading
Salon: Dorner: A drone target on U.S. soil

The manhunt for cop killing ex-cop helps inaugurate drone targeting within American borders

Russia Today: Drones to target suspected LAPD killer Chris Dorner?

173 Stephen T.  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:22:18am

re: #165 Political Atheist

Interesting they can restrict political signs, which have more leeway that for sale signs.

I’m guessing that the restriction on the political sign wasn’t actually because it was four inches too big. I’m thinking it was because he it was the wrong color.

174 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:22:36am

re: #171 FemNaziBitch

He’s taking the fall for a lot of dead weigh in the infrastructure-maybe?

It runs deep in the Vatican.

It comes with the territory when you’ve got the biggest hat in the Church.

175 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:23:20am

re: #168 Political Atheist


Unarmed
surveillance drones are effectively the same thing as a search helicopter, IMHO. They may revolutionize search for rescue in our mountains and deserts too.

It’s interesting to see this drone thing percolating around the internet. Some of it is just sloppy journalism and sensational headlines. Some of it is outright nuttery.

176 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:23:39am

Shots fired inside Delaware courthouse leave three dead

A man was shot killed inside a Delaware courthouse Monday morning after he opened fire in the lobby, killing his wife and another woman before officers gunned him down.

The shooting took place just after 8:15 a.m. in Wilmington, WPVI-TV reported. Two women and two police officers were hit by gunfire during the exchange.

Police confirmed that both women died. The condition of the officers was not stated.

177 freetoken  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:24:08am

re: #176 Kragar

Another day in America.

178 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:24:20am

I’m pretty sure you’re not supposed to do this sort of thing.

179 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:24:46am

re: #176 Kragar

Shots fired inside Delaware courthouse leave three dead

3 . 2 . 1 .

Another gun-free zone

180 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:25:05am

When you pick sensationalists outlets, don’t be surprised by sensationalists headlines.

181 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:25:12am

I bet all the classical liberals were down with the domestic deployment of unmanned surveillance aircraft back in the day.

182 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:25:16am

re: #153 Eventual Carrion

Yes, that was my thought. These are not autonomous wandering machines. They are controlled by humans so the difference between helicopter and drones only seems to be the location of the (still human) operator/pilot.

Drone operators suffer PTSD, too. I think Obdicut’s point was excellent. If one is concerned about separation between killer and target, one should be very concerned about landmines.

183 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:26:15am

re: #182 wrenchwench

Drone operators suffer PTSD, too. I think Obdicut’s point was excellent. If one is concerned about separation between killer and target, one should be very concerned about landmines.

I freaking hate landmines.
Ban them, I say.

184 Tigger2  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:26:18am

re: #178 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I’m pretty sure you’re not supposed to do this sort of thing.

[Embedded content]

That has to be a parody.

185 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:27:59am

re: #182 wrenchwench

Drone operators suffer PTSD, too. I think Obdicut’s point was excellent. If one is concerned about separation between killer and target, one should be very concerned about landmines.

I would imagine that many of the people (on the left in particular) who are opposed to the use of drones (at home and abroad) are probably also opposed to the use of landmines.

Who knows, maybe they are even part of the various pressure groups working to reduce landmine deployment.

186 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:28:38am

All I ask for on the drone front is a specific, clear, and unambiguous set of rules for their use against Americans.
None of this ‘up for interpretation’ crap I’ve seen so far.

187 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:28:50am

re: #185 iossarian

I would imagine that many of the people (on the left in particular) who are opposed to the use of drones (at home and abroad) are probably also opposed to the use of landmines.

Who knows, maybe they are even part of the various pressure groups working to reduce landmine deployment.

I hope so. At this point landmines are doing more damage.

188 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:30:29am

Probably because my head hurts, but I’m a little pissy about this whole Dorner scenerio.

Cops mount a massive manhunt for one that kills their own, but not for child molesters.

I think we have a fucked-up system of priorities.

I’m going to log-off. I feel like shit.

189 freetoken  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:31:13am

The heart and soul of Fox News:

Roger Ailes: Obama ‘is busy’ getting ‘blacks to hate whites’

Fox News CEO Roger Ailes believes he can help Republicans win over Latinos because he says that President Barack Obama “is busy trying to get everybody to hate each other” and “we need to get along.”

In an interview with the New Republic that was published on Monday, Ailes explained that Fox News was the network that could help Republicans outreach to Latinos.

“The president likes to divide people into groups,” Ailes said. “He’s too busy getting the middle class to hate rich people, blacks to hate whites. He is busy trying to get everybody to hate each other… We need to get along.”

[…]

And then we wonder why Fox Nation baits the ugly comments it does?

190 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:31:30am

re: #186 Varek Raith

All I ask for on the drone front is a specific, clear, and unambiguous set of rules for their use against Americans.
None of this ‘up for interpretation’ crap I’ve seen so far.

That would be a start, and would clear up most of the domestic issues.

The foreign policy issue is also less to do with the technology in use and more to do with the specifics of how targets are selected, transparency surrounding the associated killing of bystanders etc.

191 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:31:48am
192 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:33:14am

Indiana teacher wants straight prom because LGBT people have no ‘purpose’

A special education teacher from Sullivan, Indiana is joining a group of students, parents and other Christians in the community who are calling for a prom that bans LGBT people because she says they have no “purpose in life.”

WTWO-TV reported that the group met at Sullivan First Christian Church on Sunday to discuss creating a prom that only allowed straight students as an alternative to the inclusive prom at Sullivan High School.

“We don’t agree with [homosexuality],” special education teacher Diana Medley told the station. “It’s offensive to us.”

Small minded dipshits who think their religion is the answer to everything are offensive to me.

193 dragonfire1981  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:33:29am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Glenn Greenwald in the Guardian: Should an armed drone be dispatched to kill Christopher Dorner?

Except they still don’t know where the hell he is!

194 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:33:35am

re: #189 freetoken

The heart and soul of Fox News:

Roger Ailes: Obama ‘is busy’ getting ‘blacks to hate whites’

And then we wonder why Fox Nation baits the ugly comments it does?

Fox is just providing the balance for Obummer getting blacks to hate whites!

Why do you hate America?

/////

195 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:34:28am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Glenn Greenwald in the Guardian: Should an armed drone be dispatched to kill Christopher Dorner?

As a classical liberal, what do you think the correct process should be for the state to decide that an individual can be killed?

E.g., does the judicial branch need to be involved, who comes up with the order, who approves it, etc.?

196 dragonfire1981  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:35:01am

re: #192 Kragar

Indiana teacher wants straight prom because LGBT people have no ‘purpose’

Small minded dipshits who think their religion is the answer to everything are offensive to me.

Saw that garbage in the pages.

It’s sad that I, as a Christian, feel a need to apologize to almost every gay person in the U.S. for the abhorrent treatment they’ve endured at the hands of fellow “believers”.

It’s so stupid. Whoever thinks that being a dick to someone and treating them as a second class citizen is going to make them go running to Jesus?

197 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:36:41am
“We don’t agree with [homosexuality],” special education teacher Diana Medley told the station. “It’s offensive to us.”

Oh, well, in that case, we’ll do what you want and ban teh gay. Because nothing can be allowed to offend you.

//

198 Mattand  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:36:48am

re: #181 iossarian

I bet all the classical liberals libertarians who won’t admit they’re libertarians were down with the domestic deployment of unmanned surveillance aircraft back in the day.

Couldn’t resist.

199 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:40:01am
A special education teacher from Sullivan, Indiana is joining a group of students, parents and other Christians in the community who are calling for a prom that bans LGBT people because she says they have no “purpose in life.”

WTWO-TV reported that the group met at Sullivan First Christian Church on Sunday to discuss creating a prom that only allowed straight students as an alternative to the inclusive prom at Sullivan High School.

So the bigots can have their own exclusive prom. Sounds like a solution. I’m sure they’ll be proud of themselves ten years from now.

200 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:40:11am

re: #195 iossarian

Some good reading on the subject if you’re interested including Constitutional precedents…
Obama’s Legal Netherworld

A defense of the Obama Administration’s policy regarding drones

201 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:40:59am

re: #182 wrenchwench

Mines (landmines or sea mines) have been up until most recently - the epitome of fire and forget. You’d deploy them and forget them. Millions upon millions of them are still omnipresent in war zones around the world despite efforts to remove them. 15-20k are killed every year from mines, including among the folks who put their own lives in danger to safely remove them.

It’s a problem that will plague future generations and the most current models are even harder to detect and defuse. While US policy to phase out persistent mines began in 2004, it applies only to new mine deployments, not to all those already sown.

202 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:41:04am

re: #196 dragonfire1981

It’s so stupid. Whoever thinks that being a dick to someone and treating them as a second class citizen is going to make them go running to Jesus?

That seems to be a running theme for the more fundie types. There’s a ranty street preacher around downtown Austin who spends his days yelling about how teh ghey and sex and vice will lead to eternal hellfire unless you find Jesus.

I have no idea who he’s trying to convert. Most people around here just walk past him while he stands on the street corner and shouts at the top of his lungs.

203 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:41:29am

OK, I’m having trouble with this. Drones == landmines?

Drones are not automatically armed. In fact most drones are not armed — they’re surveillance devices. Landmines, on the other hand, are always armed.

Armed drones are not autonomous. Even when under self-control they’re under observation, and the trigger is never automatic. Landmines, on the other hand, are pretty much by definition autonomous. There are exceptions (command detonated mines) but look up the definition of “exception”.

The primary issue with drones, especially autonomous drones, is lack of privacy. The same sort of objections that exist for traffic light cameras and city/county/nation-wide CCTV (see London). Me, I think we’re half a generation from that argument becoming a dead issue — that the functional definition of privacy is different for folk under the age of 25 due to the constant surveillance at schools and stores and pretty much everywhere they already go. (Not to mention online data sharing.)

Now if we’re discussing Greenwald’s stupidity (am I being redundant?), the issue becomes significantly closer — but it’s still a matter of autonomous vs controlled. I do not like the idea of armed drones for US police work. But I’m dismayed by the plethora of armaments already used by police, police that have bought into something of a beseiged para-military viewpoint. Thing is that’s a separate issue, and the landmine argument is an unnecessary distraction along the lines of bringing mental health into a discussion of gun control.

204 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:45:15am

re: #203 kirkspencer

I’d also add the ability to geotrack based on smartphone GPS data sharing (and any number of apps that can sync up with the GPS data).

205 Tigger2  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:45:54am

re: #192 Kragar

Indiana teacher wants straight prom because LGBT people have no ‘purpose’

Small minded dipshits who think their religion is the answer to everything are offensive to me.

If that happens every kid in that school should boycott the prom.

206 Mattand  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:46:50am

re: #192 Kragar

Indiana teacher wants straight prom because LGBT people have no ‘purpose’

Small minded dipshits who think their religion is the answer to everything are offensive to me.

Republicans and conservatives once again demonstrating their big tent is nothing more than a giant hood with eyeholes.

207 dragonfire1981  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:47:41am

re: #206 Mattand

Republicans and conservatives once again demonstrating their big tent is nothing more than a giant hood with eyeholes.

I immediately pictured that. Definitely a strong visual.

208 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:48:24am

re: #203 kirkspencer

When I said

If one is concerned about separation between killer and target, one should be very concerned about landmines.

I didn’t mean it as a distraction. There are definite, real concerns about drones, but I think at this point they’re being hyped as outrageous outrage. They’ve been using drones in the US on the border for years, but of course

it’s OK if they aren’t looking at Americans.

And I believe they are unarmed. But they are used to decide where to send the armed people.

209 erik_t  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:49:28am

re: #203 kirkspencer

OK, I’m having trouble with this. Drones == landmines?

Drones are not automatically armed. In fact most drones are not armed — they’re surveillance devices. Landmines, on the other hand, are always armed.

As the first one to bring up mines in this thread, let me be clear that that was my entire point. Mines are dramatically more problematic from the point of view of distancing the user from the victim.

210 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:50:01am

re: #200 Killgore Trout

Some good reading on the subject if you’re interested including Constitutional precedents…
Obama’s Legal Netherworld

A defense of the Obama Administration’s policy regarding drones

Believe me, I’m quite aware of the arguments for and against.

I was specifically asking how you, as a self-professed “classical liberal”, thought the state should go about deciding when a citizen can be killed.

211 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:50:50am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Holy shit. That question was serious! I believe that all of our drones should be programmed to seek out and destroy all persons who are dangerous (they can do that, right?).

212 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:53:22am
213 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:54:19am

re: #211 EdDantes

I believe that all of our drones should be programmed to seek out and destroy all persons who are dangerous (they can do that, right?).

Not sure if serious.

214 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 10:59:51am

re: #213 iossarian

Not serious.

215 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:04:58am

re: #210 iossarian

Believe me, I’m quite aware of the arguments for and against.

I was specifically asking how you, as a self-professed “classical liberal”, thought the state should go about deciding when a citizen can be killed.

I agree with the FP article that the CiC (or any other military commander) has the legal right to attack targets engaged in hostilities in the field of battle although I disagree that judicial oversight would hinder operations. Citizenship really doesn’t count much from a legal standpoint. I don’t think the courts are needed to decide which specific targets should be hit on a case by case basis. I think the general legal framework is already in place and I don’t expect the ACLU’s legal challenges are going to amount to much.
The judicial oversight proposals are a cosmetic political thing. It’ll just end up being a rubber stamp. Unlike the FISA courts, drone strike courts aren’t required.

216 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:07:19am

re: #215 Killgore Trout

That seems to cover the international/warfare angle more than the domestic one though.

As Greenwald’s article asks, if Dorner is located in a cabin in the woods somewhere, and poses no immediate threat, what requirements would need to be satisfied before killing him via remote control?

217 Lidane  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:09:56am
218 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:10:55am

can i say it? it’s about time we had a non-terran pope

face it - the gravitational center of catholicism is moving out-of-galaxy

219 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:14:18am

re: #216 iossarian

That seems to cover the international/warfare angle more than the domestic one though.

As Greenwald’s article asks, if Dorner is located in a cabin in the woods somewhere, and poses no immediate threat, what requirements would need to be satisfied before killing him via remote control?

Because the military is already restricted to what it can do domestically by Posse Comitatus so it’s sort of a non issue. I haven’t seen anyone seriously propose using armed drones domestically, the only people I see bringing it up are drone critics. It seems like a strawman.

220 iossarian  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:26:46am

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Because the military is already restricted to what it can do domestically by Posse Comitatus so it’s sort of a non issue. I haven’t seen anyone seriously propose using armed drones domestically, the only people I see bringing it up are drone critics. It seems like a strawman.

Well, it’s been opposed (the arming of domestic drones) by groups such as the ACLU, and it appears that such efforts are so far successful, which is a good thing.

I don’t think it’s particularly a straw man, since the technology is readily available and there are presumably some people who think it would be a good idea to use it. These things happen unless people speak out against them.

221 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 11:31:20am

re: #203 kirkspencer

For the record, I was trying to say landmines are worse and a further ‘distancing’ from the person you’re killing. I wasn’t drawing an equivalency.

222 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 12:22:03pm

The LAPD Is Not Using Drones to Hunt Fugitive Christopher Dorner

[…]

“Reports that U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) are being used are incorrect. CBP UAS are not flying in support of the search,” a spokesperson from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection told Mashable via email.

The statement from the CBP comes as others had already cast doubt on the original report’s claim.

[…]

223 fizzlogic  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 12:59:56pm

This may be more than just a coincidence that he resigned right after HBO’s airing of Mea Maxima Culpa.

224 Godisdeadandburied  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 1:30:43pm

Does this mean he can now be arrested for covering up child rape/

225 Tigger2005  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 3:03:49pm

I’m not surprised…this Pope is a huge liability to the Church. A “great” Pope? Hah. “Be difficult to find someone of his calibre to replace him”? If so the Church is in a really, really bad way.

I would hope they’d elect somebody who’s younger and progressive, but that’s a pipe dream I’m sure.

226 Flavia  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 4:31:36pm

re: #6 Dr Lizardo

He’s stated before, back in the days when he was plain ol’ Cardinal Ratzinger, that his view was that when a Pope is no longer capable, either physically or mentally, of carrying out his duties of office, then that Pope should resign.

I completely agree with him on that, if nothing else.

A Catholic friend of mine told me that when he got elected, the very name he picked was his way of telling people he was only going to be a caretaker pope.

227 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 8:34:22pm

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Comments are closed.

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