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Shock News! Republicans Oppose Minimum Wage Boost

Who could ever have predicted?
Politics • Views: 18,225
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One of the big points in President Obama’s State of the Union address was his call to increase the federal minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $9.00 an hour, to help lift families out of poverty and give the economy another much-needed boost.

So of course, the Republican Party reflexively opposes the idea, as they do all ideas that don’t benefit the wealthy — or that originate from President Obama. You knew this was coming: Top Republicans Oppose Minimum Wage Hike.

RYAN: I think it’s inflationary. I think it actually is counterproductive in many ways. You end up costing job from people who are the bottom rung of the economic ladder. Look, I wish we could just pass a law saying everybody should make more money without any adverse consequences. The problem is you’re costing jobs from those who are just trying to get entry level jobs. The goal ought to be is to get people out of entry level jobs into better jobs, better paying jobs. That’s better education and a growing economy. Those are some of the things he talked about and I don’t think raising minimum wage — and history is very clear about this — doesn’t actually accomplish those goals.

RUBIO: I want to see people making a lot more than $9 an hour in the United States. And the way do you that is through rapid economic growth where people are being paid a lot more than that. $9 is not enough. I think we all would want that. The question is is a minimum wage the best way to do it? And history has said the answer is absolutely not. In fact, the impact of minimum wage usually is that businesses hire less people. That’s the impact of it. They’ll just hire less people to do the same amount of work…We have a lot of history to prove that the minimum wage , raising the minimum wage does not grow the middle class.

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322 comments

1 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:54:09am

JUST THINK HOW MANY JOBS WOULD BE CREATED IF POORS WOULD WORK FOR BOWL OF RICE & GRUEL A DAY!1!

2 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:56:40am

More predicable than the sun rising in the east. At least the Earth’s spin will, due to tidal effects, one day cease.

3 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:57:40am
RYAN: I think it’s inflationary. I think it actually is counterproductive in many ways. You end up costing job from people who are the bottom rung of the economic ladder.

See, the teabag goodhearts just care about the poors at the bottom rung of the ladder. So, because they want to protect these people, we just can’t raise the minimum wage. Or do anything else positive for them either. //

4 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:59:17am
Rubio — The question is is a minimum wage the best way to do it? And history has said the answer is absolutely not.

Or at least the history he gets from Heritage and Cato say that.

/

5 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:59:38am

I’ve worked for minimum wage.
It sucks in this country.
You can not live off of minimum wage.

6 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:59:44am

Seen a few tweets saying that if this was such a good idea, how come so few states have pushed the minimum wage above the federal levels.

That seems to completely ignore that quite a few state legislatures, and governors, are GOPers who have no interest in raising the minimum wage despite the fact that it hasn’t been increased in years, or that the purchasing power is less now than it was when it was last raised due to inflation.

7 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:00:05am

Min wage jobs in the US are service jobs like fast food that DO NOT compete with the third world and where the cost of labor is not most of the cost, so no one is going out of business for raising the cost of a hamburger 25 cents. Are you going to buy hamburgers from China? No, you won’t even notice the difference when they raise the price.

Also, on a similar note, the CEO of Whole Foods needs to be replaced for whining that his company can’t afford health care because it would make them raise costs:
1) they’ve never competed on price and never will. Shopping at Whole Foods costs 4 times what the cheapest markets do already.

2) their customers are liberal yuppies who buy fair trade, environmentally sustainable, organic coffee and would be overjoyed to know that they’re paying a little extra to make sure that the employees where they buy food have health care.

The fucker needs to be fired.

8 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:01:24am

And if you’re really at the bottom of the ladder, you shouldn’t be buying fast food, you should be buying raw food in bulk and cooking it yourself and saving $500 a month.

9 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:02:43am

Frank says:

Let’s not be too tough on our own ignorance. It’s the thing that makes America great.

10 geoffm33  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:03:05am

Just posted downstairs, reposting:

Yay Drudge Headline: STATE OF THE UNION: 11,629 MORE GO ON FOOD STAMPS EACH DAY… (points to this CNS article: [Link: cnsnews.com…]

Couple of debunking articles here and here.

And for comparison, under GWB (granted it was an 8 year span) food stamp recipients rose 14.7 million. Or an average of 16,095 per day. So…yeah.

11 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:03:09am

Amazing what useless idiots those two are.

12 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:03:18am

re: #5 Varek Raith

I’ve worked for minimum wage.
It sucks in this country.
You can not live off of minimum wage.

Waiters and bartenders get $2.13 an hour because they can get tips.

I dare these greedy fuckers who oppose the minimum wage increase to try living on $2.13 an hour plus tips, just for a month.

13 darthstar  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:03:40am

Want Republicans to support an increase in the minimum wage? Pay congress miminum wage - and only for the hours they’re in session.

14 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:04:15am

re: #13 darthstar

Dock their pay when they filibuster!

15 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:04:26am

re: #13 darthstar

Want Republicans to support an increase in the minimum wage? Pay congress miminum wage - and only for the hours they’re in session.

They shouldn’t even be paid. Useless shits. Let them get their sparkling benefits and be happy about that.

16 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:04:31am
17 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:04:43am

I’d be surprised if they haven’t also trotted out the “The only people who work at minimum wage are students who only work part time so they don’t count so raising the min wage wouldn’t really help anyone”, etc.

18 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:04:56am

re: #10 geoffm33

of course they ignore the fact that if the minimum wage was higher then people the number of people on food stamps would be lower. After all, most minimum wage employees need gov’t assistance just to afford basic necessities.

19 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:05:16am

re: #12 Lidane

Waiters and bartenders get $2.13 an hour because they can get tips.

I dare these greedy fuckers who oppose the minimum wage increase to try living on $2.13 an hour plus tips, just for a month.

Minnesota’s Tom Emmer tried it!

With the tips that they get to take home, they are some people earning over $100,000 a year. More than the very people providing the jobs and investing not only their life savings but their families’ future

20 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:05:23am

re: #1 Vicious Babushka

The GOP theme song: Holiday In Cambodia.

21 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:05:41am

re: #17 Bulworth

I’d be surprised if they haven’t also trotted out the “The only people who work at minimum wage are students who only work part time so they don’t count so raising the min wage wouldn’t really help anyone”, etc.

thus ignoring the people who work full time at Wal Mart.

22 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:06:38am

re: #16 Lidane

Short-handled hoe water bottle!

23 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:08:12am

re: #10 geoffm33

Just posted downstairs, reposting:

Yay Drudge Headline: STATE OF THE UNION: 11,629 MORE GO ON FOOD STAMPS EACH DAY… (points to this CNS article: [Link: cnsnews.com…]

Couple of debunking articles here and here.

And for comparison, under GWB (granted it was an 8 year span) food stamp recipients rose 14.7 million. Or an average of 16,095 per day. So…yeah.

Oh CNSNews, I Googled that number and Stormfront came up. Not that there is much difference between CNSNEWS and Stormfront.

24 Mongo only pawn... in game of life.  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:08:18am

The GOP would be against air if it wouldn’t suffocate them too. Nothing gets done on this watch. American Exceptionalism can’t afford 9 bucks an hour.

25 jaunte  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:09:16am
increase the federal minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $9.00 an hour

In GOP economics, that extra $1.75 an hour doesn’t go immediately back into the economy, it just disappears.

26 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:09:50am

re: #18 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

of course they ignore the fact that if the minimum wage was higher then people the number of people on food stamps would be lower. After all, most minimum wage employees need gov’t assistance just to afford basic necessities.

Pretty much. I look at it like this; either you’re going to pay more in taxes to help people meet their basic needs, or you’re going to pay them more in wages to meet those needs. I’d much rather they get that money directly.

Especially for places that hire minimum-wage workers in mass numbers (I’d take a guess that many Wal-Mart employees are min-wagers) and make a killing in profits because of it. I think the minimum-wage hike is a roundabout way of raising their taxes without calling it such (Grover might shave his beard in protest.) Kinda how I see it anyway.

27 Gus  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:09:56am

I’m all for raising the minimum wage as long as it doesn’t include American Samoa.

//

28 allegro  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:10:28am

I am shocked at the suggestion of increasing minimum wage. It could cost CEOs and upper management a few hundred thousand or even *gasp* a million dollars out of their annual paychecks and bonuses and then where would we be?! Huh? We must protect the job creators!

//

29 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:10:50am

TGDN goofballs are all snarking “Oh just raise the minimum wage to 250K for everyone!” when what they really mean is ONE BOWL OF RICE AND NO GRUEL FOR THE POORS.

30 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:11:51am

DERP

31 allegro  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:11:51am

re: #26 Ghost of Tom Joad

Especially for places that hire minimum-wage workers in mass numbers (I’d take a guess that many Wal-Mart employees are min-wagers) and make a killing in profits because of it. I think the minimum-wage hike is a roundabout way of raising their taxes without calling it such (Grover might shave his beard in protest.) Kinda how I see it anyway.

What it means is that less of our taxes are subsidizing their businesses by paying their employees for them.

32 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:12:06am

The fact is that every study of the effect of raising minimum wage on job creation has found no detectable employment losses. Again, we see the Republican Party pushing phony talking points based on lies.

33 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:13:05am

TGDN DERANGED TWEET OF THE DAY

34 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:13:24am

re: #30 Vicious Babushka

DERP

@BlaqSheep1 Common sense. If you raise the minimum wage it will no longer be a minimum wage…. #RedNationRising #TCOT #TGDN ##LNYHBT

Words. How, precisely, the fuck do they work?

35 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:13:40am

re: #32 Charles Johnson

So we have to conclude that the Republican base’s motivation is mere misanthropy. If it’s bad for most people, they like it. It’s even good for the economy and they’re against it.

36 jaunte  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:14:17am

re: #34 erik_t

In raising the floor, it has lost its essential floorness.

37 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:14:30am

re: #30 Vicious Babushka

Another person our schools left behind.

38 A Mom Anon  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:14:58am

Corporations are sitting on more money than they’ve ever had in the past. It won’t hurt a soul if minimum wage actually gets a little closer to being a living wage. I’m sick of money hoarding assholes making things worse and working way too hard to keep everyone hating on poor people.

39 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:15:02am

re: #36 jaunte

In raising the floor, it has lost its essential floorness.

In the second floor of my home, I hover.

It’s awesome.

40 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:15:11am

The Onion channels a generic RWNJ blog post:
Completely Self-Absorbed Obama Gets Up And Just Talks For An Hour Straight

WASHINGTON—In a shocking display of deep self-absorption and narcissistic behavior, President Barack Obama stood up in front of the entire nation Tuesday and talked for more than an hour straight, sources confirmed.

Appearing before a crowd of several hundred people, whom he had apparently required to attend and sit silently as he spoke, the egocentric president reportedly talked nonstop from roughly 9 p.m. to 10:15 p.m. Eastern time, giving his opinion on whatever topics he felt like discussing. Apparently unwilling to concern himself with any beliefs other than his own, Obama selfishly spoke without interruption, never once allowing another person to get a word in edgewise or offer a differing viewpoint.

41 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:15:18am

I have a hard time keeping myself from downdinging the derp in the quoted tweets. We need a placibo downding button for “I know it’s not your fault but must downding!”

42 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:15:44am

re: #5 Varek Raith

I’ve worked for minimum wage.
It sucks in this country.
You can not live off of minimum wage.

Yes, so you apply for food stamps. In other words, your employer gets an indirect wage subsidy from the government.

43 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:15:47am

re: #30 Vicious Babushka

DERP

Common sense: Since the minimum wage has been raised multiple times, it hasn’t been the minimum since it was raised from its original amount, which was a quarter in 1938.

Shtoopid people. When these people don’t get simple terminology, all is lost.

44 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:17:14am

HEY WINGNUTS, MINIMUM WAGE IS STILL MINIMUM.

45 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:17:54am

Howitzers and AK-47’s for everybody!

Derp.

46 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:18:16am

re: #44 Vicious Babushka

HEY WINGNUTS, MINIMUM WAGE IS STILL MINIMUM.

Except they don’t accept that there should be a minimum wage. Like Chris Rock said once, if they could get away with paying you a loaf of bread, they would. These are people who are not far removed from the robber-barons of the Gilded Age, who thought the idea of a guaranteed wage tantamount to robbery.

47 jaunte  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:18:22am

re: #44 Vicious Babushka

HEY WINGNUTS, MINIMUM WAGE IS STILL MINIMUM.

“If it was legal to pay you less, I would.”

48 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:18:22am

re: #45 Lidane

Tanks and bazookas for me, thanks

49 A Mom Anon  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:18:32am

re: #43 Ghost of Tom Joad

I think they’d get it if someone on their “team” actually wasn’t a grifter and explained it to them. Or if it had actually been labeled a conservative thing long before the crazies took over. But because it’s deemed evildemondevil liberal it’s bad.

50 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:18:33am

re: #32 Charles Johnson

Again, we see the Republican Party pushing phony talking points based on lies.

That’s a feature, not a bug.

51 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:19:02am

re: #45 Lidane

Howitzers and AK-47’s for everybody!

Derp.

Heller laid out that yes, the government has the power to regulate firearms, just not the power to ban all of them.

52 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:19:35am

What are wingnuts afraid of? That when you pay people minimum wage, they will all suddenly start driving around in Cadillacs and eating filet mignon that they have been already buying with their welfare and food stamps?

53 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:20:05am

re: #46 Targetpractice

I think many of them would be happy owning serfs and slaves if it was legal. That’s how morally bankrupt they are. It’s not just about hording as much wealth as possible, it’s about keeping everyone else down because it makes them feel superior.

54 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:20:09am

re: #44 Vicious Babushka

That’s it, just raise the min wage to $9/hr and all the welfares will be living in mansions with their food stamps and Obamaphones and other free stuff.

///

55 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:20:24am

re: #52 Vicious Babushka

What are wingnuts afraid of?

Brown and black people.

56 jaunte  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:20:31am

re: #52 Vicious Babushka

What are wingnuts afraid of?

What have you got?

57 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:20:42am

re: #50 Lidane

Sometimes I think the basis of the Republican party is this:

Rich grifters notice that religious nuts vote Republicans and think “these are the morons who will believe ANYTHING, we just need to get a preacher type to say that they need to give all their money to us rich folk and we’re set forever!” And they do!

58 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:20:56am

re: #51 Targetpractice

Ah, that “well-regulated” part of the 2A. Too bad wingnuts can’t read much.

59 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:21:24am

re: #55 Lidane

Brown and black people.

Especially the uterus-equipped ones.

60 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:22:44am
61 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:23:43am

re: #57 stabby

Sometimes I think the basis of the Republican party is this:

Rich grifters notice that religious nuts vote Republicans and think “these are the morons who will believe ANYTHING, we just need to get a preacher type to say that they need to give all their money to us rich folk and we’re set forever!” And they do!

Put another way:

Image: voting_republican_sm.jpg

62 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:24:12am

re: #30 Vicious Babushka

63 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:25:24am

re: #61 Lidane

Blaming the powerful for our problems is what leftists do,
blaming/hating everyone of a different skin color, beliefs, accent is what right wingers do.

64 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:26:12am

To wingnuts, raising min wage = workers, and workers = city people, and city people = class warfare, and class warfare = unions, and unions = Communism.

This chain of derp has been going on since at least the Gilded Age, reinforced by preachers and newspaper editors for much of that time.

65 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:26:16am

also it’s blaming down, the more poor, the more despised.

66 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:26:51am

re: #60 Lidane

Ugh…you know what, if your business is using so much minimum-wage labor that a small raise to those people will put you out of business, then you’re a shitty businessman who probably shouldn’t be running a business in the first place.

67 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:26:53am

re: #52 Vicious Babushka

What are wingnuts afraid of? That when you pay people minimum wage, they will all suddenly start driving around in Cadillacs and eating filet mignon that they have been already buying with their welfare and food stamps?

It’s IGM as usual, you know, “I’ve Got Mine.” They listen to their echo chamber telling them that raising the minimum wage will raise prices and cost jobs and they go “Oh my God, my not-so-shit life might be at stake!”

68 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:27:11am

Since I can’t keep up with all the fail, how many of these nutters oppose out of control government spending AND also oppose the sequester?

69 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:27:39am

re: #64 Bulworth

Are you sure it’s not “minimum wage” = “not us so fuck em!”

70 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:27:49am

re: #66 Ghost of Tom Joad

Ugh…you know what, if your business is using so much minimum-wage labor that a small raise to those people will put you out of business, then you’re a shitty businessman who probably shouldn’t be running a business in the first place.

The marginal salary cost for a single full-time employee to go from $7.25/hr to $9/hr is $3500/yr.

If you’re running margins that tight, the writing is already on the wall.

71 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:29:37am

Which part of the 47% does the minimum wage folk fall into? Or has the GOP just decided to insult the integrity and status of another fractional part of the citizenry?

72 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:29:38am

Derp:

73 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:29:39am
==> MT @twitchyteam
Obama pushes minimum wage hike Obamacare; small biz owners say it ‘will put me out of business’
bit.ly/VUVjU0
— Michelle Malkin (@michellemalkin)
February 13, 2013

Small bidness is always being put out of bidness by gvt doing stuff. I bet it’s the same small bidness dude who’s been showing up everywhere to complain about every PBO initiative. Always treated as an “independent, non-partisan” business person, in reality he or she is part of some shadowy astroturf group always wanting less regulation, lower taxes, etc.

74 jaunte  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:29:41am

re: #70 erik_t

The marginal salary cost for a single full-time employee to go from $7.25/hr to $9/hr is $3500/yr.

If you’re running margins that tight, the writing is already on the wall.

If you can’t figure a way to get $3500 more revenue from one employee over the course of a year, you’re a lousy manager.

75 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:30:34am

re: #66 Ghost of Tom Joad

Ugh…you know what, if your business is using so much minimum-wage labor that a small raise to those people will put you out of business, then you’re a shitty businessman who probably shouldn’t be running a business in the first place.

Remember these are the same business folks who are using Obamacare as an excuse to shorten their worker’s hours and cut down their workforces.

76 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:30:45am

re: #72 Lidane

is there an English translation of that derp?

77 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:32:12am

re: #75 Targetpractice

Remember these are the same business folks who are using Obamacare as an excuse to shorten their worker’s hours and cut down their workforces.

Those are not “small business” those are HUMONGOUS BUSINESS (Walmart, Whole Foods)

78 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:33:41am

re: #70 erik_t

The marginal salary cost for a single full-time employee to go from $7.25/hr to $9/hr is $3500/yr.

If you’re running margins that tight, the writing is already on the wall.

It’s just…I’ve worked both privately and for the government in various industries handling regulations (rather not say what) and I’ve always heard this “you’re putting us out of business argument” any time something changes, no matter how slight. It’s almost always guys who don’t know what they’re doing, are too over-extended, or think they’re entitled to get rich off everything. The guys who belong in the business adapt and move on, even if a change in regulations winds up costing them more.

So used to that argument that hearing it sparks an involuntary angry response.

79 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:34:12am

re: #77 Vicious Babushka

Those are not “small business” those are HUMONGOUS BUSINESS (Walmart, Whole Foods)

Yeah, but the GOP rigged the tax code so they’re classified as “small businesses.”

80 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:35:37am

Also, wingnuts who think they can get away with paying their workers a bowl of gruel a day, also think that food stamps should be limited to a bowl of gruel a day.

81 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:35:42am

Almost every province in Canada has a minimum wage above $10.00 and hour. In Sask, ours just went up to $10.00/hr amid the same horror stories Ryan and Rubio are telling now.

We still have a employee shortage.

82 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:36:24am

re: #81 b_sharp

Almost every province in Canada has a minimum wage above $10.00 and hour. In Sask, ours just went up to $10.00/hr amid the same horror stories Ryan and Rubio are telling now.

We still have a employee shortage.

But you have poutine instead of gruel.

83 allegro  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:36:43am

re: #63 stabby

Blaming the powerful for our problems is what leftists do,
blaming/hating everyone of a different skin color, beliefs, accent is what right wingers do.

Except for the fact that the powerful are, indeed, responsible for our current economic problems. Reality, how does it work?

84 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:37:30am

re: #82 Vicious Babushka

But you have poutine instead of gruel.

I would work for a bowl of poutine per day.

85 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:37:56am

re: #81 b_sharp

Almost every province in Canada has a minimum wage above $10.00 and hour. In Sask, ours just went up to $10.00/hr amid the same horror stories Ryan and Rubio are telling now.

We still have a employee shortage.

I blame the fear of armed weasels for that.
;)

Plus the relative proximity of Calgary and Winnipeg.

86 Big Steve  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:37:57am

Speaking from an overall economy perspective, 60% of the workforce is paid hourly and 5% of all hourly workers are below or at minimum wage. (Bureau of Labor Statistics). Therefore this affects 3% of the workforce or about 3.8M workers. This increase represents 13 billion $. Since the US GDP is 15 Trillion this is 0.1% of the GDP.

Agreed this can have an affect on an individual but anyone who wants to argue the overall economy impacts either good or bad is simply not good at math.

87 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:38:41am

re: #44 Vicious Babushka

HEY WINGNUTS, MINIMUM WAGE IS STILL MINIMUM.

Yout gotta understand, these guys are not only against raising it, they are full on for abolishing it completely.

Basically, the entire American labor force should all line up outside the Home Depot every morning and the bosses should come by in pick up trucks and shout out what they are paying per hour that day. Take the offer or wait for the next truck…

88 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:39:16am

re: #86 Big Steve

Agreed this can have an affect on an individual but anyone who wants to argue the overall economy impacts either good or bad is simply not good at math.

Worker pay at the bottom of the rung has an incredibly nonlinear effect on the economy.

89 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:39:52am

re: #86 Big Steve

Speaking from an overall economy perspective, 60% of the workforce is paid hourly and 5% of all hourly workers are below or at minimum wage. (Bureau of Labor Statistics). Therefore this affects 3% of the workforce or about 3.8M workers. This increase represents 13 billion $. Since the US GDP is 15 Trillion this is 0.1% of the GDP.

Agreed this can have an affect on an individual but anyone who wants to argue the overall economy impacts either good or bad is simply not good at math.

We can offset it by the trivial effect of increasing the top end income tax rates by a few percentage points.

90 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:39:58am

Another element of this is that labor productivity has been going up since the 2008 recession (except for last quarter) so they’ve been getting more work out of people at the same pay for some time now. Another reason businesses are not hiring.

91 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:40:12am

CRY ME A FREAKING RIVER

92 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:40:32am

re: #81 b_sharp

You also have 40 degree below 0 winters so you can’t let people live under bridges like we can. Americans don’t have to care because it takes our poor a few years to die instead of a few minutes.

93 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:41:35am

re: #91 Vicious Babushka

@boggsavebubba There are days that small business owners wish they made minimum wage! #tgdn #tcot

Entrepreneur accepts all possible risk and reward for their free market superfreedomerica business venture; still wants government to guarantee him at least moderate success.

Film at 11.

94 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:41:41am

re: #91 Vicious Babushka

MUST
DOWNDING
DERP

95 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:42:03am

re: #87 Sol Berdinowitz

Yout gotta undersatnd, these guys are not only against raising, it are full on for abolishing it completely.

Basically, the entire American labor force should all line up outside the Home Depot every morning and the bosses should come by in pick up trucks and shout out what they are paying per hour that day. Take the offer or wait for the next truck…

That’s another reason Republicans oppose immigration reform, especially citizenship for all the undocumented people already here. They’d have to start treating them like Americans.

96 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:42:52am

Nugent tells Voice of America reporter: ‘I’m the f—ing voice of America!’

Nugent, who was surrounded by fans wanting a photograph with him, said “spirit and attitude and freedom” were what brought him to hear the speech, but added that he was pained to hear Obama’s comments on gun control.

“I’ve heard this predictable flowery feel-good speech of denial before,” Nugent said at one of his many stops in front of the TV cameras.

“It’s a scam, and I think it’s epitomized by his dishonesty in the overt attempt to infringe on our Second Amendment rights” to bear arms.

Nugent was eventually introduced to a reporter from the Voice of America.

The rocker grinned and interrupted: “I’m sorry, I’m the f—ing voice of America!” he boomed.

97 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:42:56am

re: #73 Bulworth

Small bidness is always being put out of bidness by gvt doing stuff. I bet it’s the same small bidness dude who’s been showing up everywhere to complain about every PBO initiative. Always treated as an “independent, non-partisan” business person, in reality he or she is part of some shadowy astroturf group always wanting less regulation, lower taxes, etc.

Most small bidness is put out of bidness by big bidness.

98 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:43:46am

re: #82 Vicious Babushka

But you have poutine instead of gruel.

It’s all gravy.

99 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:02am

re: #96 Kragar (Antichrist )

Nugent tells Voice of America reporter: ‘I’m the f—ing voice of America!’

I would wager significant money that more than 50% of Americans would not recognize Ted Nugent’s name or picture.

100 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:06am

re: #95 wrenchwench

That’s another reason Republicans oppose immigration reform, especially citizenship for all the undocumented people already here. They’d have to start treating them like Americans.

Which is why they’re all for guest worker programs and such, because if the guest workers start agitating for higher pay or better working conditions, they can just have their visa yanked and sent packing. After all, “small business” says, there’s plenty more where they came from.

101 Big Steve  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:23am

re: #88 erik_t

Worker pay at the bottom of the rung has an incredibly nonlinear effect on the economy.

How so. Agreed it is non-linear to the person but the 13B quoted is simply cash. It comes from one source to another. Either businesses eat it in margin, or stockholders eat it in dividends, or consumers eat it in higher prices. And BTW if EVERY person getting a minimum wage increase worked for Walmart, it would still only represent only 2% of Walmart’s Gross Revenue (446B in 2012)

102 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:26am
103 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:39am

re: #87 Sol Berdinowitz

Yout gotta undersatnd, these guys are not only against raising, it are full on for abolishing it completely.

Basically, the entire American labor force should all line up outside the Home Depot every morning and the bosses should come by in pick up trucks and shout out what they are paying per hour that day. Take the offer or wait for the next truck…

Sounds like the 7-11s out here on Lawnguyland.

104 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:45am

re: #97 b_sharp

What is thy bidness? /Darth Walmartus

105 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:46am

re: #91 Vicious Babushka

And which small bidness owners would these be? Please show your work.

106 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:44:55am

re: #101 Big Steve

How so. Agreed it is non-linear to the person but the 13B quoted is simply cash. It comes from one source to another. Either businesses eat it in margin, or stockholders eat it in dividends, or consumers eat it in higher prices. And BTW if EVERY person getting a minimum wage increase worked for Walmart, it would still only represent only 2% of Walmart’s Gross Revenue (446B in 2012)

Um. The economy is not a zero-sum game. You’ve been watching too much Wall Street.

107 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:45:27am

re: #96 Kragar (Antichrist )

Extra word. He’s just the voice of fucking.

108 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:45:31am

re: #88 erik_t

Worker pay at the bottom of the rung has an incredibly nonlinear effect on the economy.

Makes a big difference to that worker though.

109 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:45:52am

re: #105 Bulworth

And which small bidness owners would these be? Please show your work.

WALMART! HOBBY LOBBY! PAPA JOHNS!

110 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:45:59am

re: #100 Targetpractice

Which is why they’re all for guest worker programs and such, because if the guest workers start agitating for higher pay or better working conditions, they can just have their visa yanked and sent packing. After all, “small business” says, there’s plenty more where they came from.

Exactly. A two-tier system of laborers is the libertarian ideal.

111 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:46:12am

re: #96 Kragar (Antichrist )

Behold the newest spokesperson for the beseiged JudeoChristian “values” majority.

112 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:46:44am

re: #108 Ghost of Tom Joad

Makes a big difference to that worker though.

That’s my whole point. Nearly all of a minimum-wage person’s additional wages will flow immediately back into the economy, since they’re too poor to save in any event. Give Mitt Romney an extra $3500/yr and he may use it to wallpaper his fourth half-bath.

113 Big Steve  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:47:16am

re: #106 erik_t

funny…..several graduate level classes in macroeconomics at Rice University seem to argue that it is a zero sum game.

114 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:47:27am

Audio catches cops shouting ‘Burn this motherf*cker!’ during Dorner siege

Scanner audio apparently broadcast by the Los Angeles CBS affiliate KCAL on Tuesday captured angry officers yelling to “burn this motherfucker” prior to a cabin fire that is thought to have burned the body of fugitive ex-LAPD officer Christopher Dorner.

In a video recording posted to YouTube on Tuesday, the anchor pauses to let the viewer hear the mostly-inaudible scanner traffic.

“Do it right now,” one voice says. “Fucking burn this motherfucker!”

“Police officers, understandably upset,” the anchor explains.

A separate recording of scanner traffic — which has not been verified — features officers talking about going forward “with the burn.”

“All right, Steve, we’re gonna go — we’re gonna go forward with the plan, with — with the burn,” a male voice on the recording instructs. “We want it like we talked about.”

“Seven burners deployed and we have a fire,” the voice later adds.

115 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:47:46am

re: #99 erik_t

I would wager significant money that more than 50% of Americans would not recognize Ted Nugent’s name or picture.

From here:

Nugent was shepherded over to a standing MSNBC camera. Two police officers looked on, confused by the mobile media herd.

“Who’s that?” asked one cop.

“It’s Ted Nugent,” said the other cop. “He’s a rock star, he talks about guns.”

“Really? Never heard of him.”

116 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:47:53am

I feel ur pain, Grumpy Cat:

[Link: i.chzbgr.com…]

117 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:48:30am
118 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:48:53am

re: #113 Big Steve

funny…..several graduate level classes in macroeconomics at Rice University seem to argue that it is a zero sum game.

Sweet shit you’ve got to be kidding me.

I guess this is proof it can be a negative-sum game, because you sure as hell didn’t derive much value or understanding from those courses.

119 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:49:36am

re: #114 Kragar (Antichrist )

Audio catches cops shouting ‘Burn this motherf*cker!’ during Dorner siege

Flashbangs are “burners”

120 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:49:48am

re: #117 Charles Johnson

Uh oh.

Accidents are one thing. Deliberately burning down a house with a fugitive inside is someplace we do not want to go.

121 iossarian  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:49:50am

re: #114 Kragar (Antichrist )

Where is KT when we need him to decipher this latest moonbat outrage.

122 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:50:21am

Anybody see the skewering Jon Stewart gave Cheney last night? It was Schadenlicious.

123 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:50:31am

re: #113 Big Steve

funny…..several graduate level classes in macroeconomics at Rice University seem to argue that it is a zero sum game.

Then those professors were idiots. Economics is not a zero-sum game. If it was, we’d all still be in caves, wearing pelts and eating grubs.

124 dragonath  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:50:36am

Boehner invents new word to pin sequestration on Obama

Obamaquester

WTF. Is Lionel Hutz a GOP strategist now?

125 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:50:52am

re: #121 iossarian

Where is KT when we need him to decipher this latest moonbat outrage.

It’s been debunked already. Not that it’s going to stop the conspiracy nuts. Carry on.

126 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:51:04am

re: #120 Kragar (Antichrist )

I’m half expecting the cabin to contain an unrelated couple instead of Dorner. The LAPD has covered themselves in glory so far, why stop now?

127 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:51:08am

re: #119 Vicious Babushka

Flashbangs are “burners”

I heard tear gas was deployed, never heard anything about them using flashbangs and never heard them called burners before.

128 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:51:43am

re: #127 Kragar (Antichrist )

I heard tear gas was deployed, never heard anything about them using flashbangs and never heard them called burners before.

That is what was explained last night on CNN. Maybe they were just making shit up.

129 Big Steve  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:51:44am

re: #118 erik_t

Sweet shit you’ve got to be kidding me.

I guess this is proof it can be a negative-sum game, because you sure as hell didn’t derive much value or understanding from those courses.

You would cry if you saw what I make for a living. You know nothing Jon Snow.

130 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:51:49am

re: #112 erik_t

That’s my whole point. Nearly all of a minimum-wage person’s additional wages will flow immediately back into the economy, since they’re too poor to save in any event. Give Mitt Romney an extra $3500/yr and he may use it to wallpaper his fourth half-bath.

Yup, wasn’t disagreeing with you at all, just stating that regardless of the overall economy, it means a lot to each person seeing a small raise.

But, in terms of overall economy, what you said is also correct. Money going to the bottom helps everybody because it’s immediately put back into the machine.

In findings echoed by other economists and studies, he said the study shows the fastest way to infuse money into the economy is through expanding the food-stamp program. For every dollar spent on that program $1.73 is generated throughout the economy, he said.

131 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:51:51am

re: #124 dragonath

I have a new word for Republicans rhetoric “Obamasterbation”

132 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:52:00am

re: #125 Killgore Trout

It’s been debunked already. Not that it’s going to stop the conspiracy nuts. Carry on.

Ah, OK then. Where did you see the debunking so I can read it?

133 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:52:00am
134 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:52:10am

re: #129 Big Steve

You would cry if you saw what I make for a living. You know nothing Jon Snow.

And the internet dick-swinging continues as expected. I’m out; y’all have fun with this one.

135 iossarian  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:52:13am

re: #124 dragonath

Boehner invents new word to pin sequestration on Obama

Obamaquester

WTF. Is Lionel Hutz a GOP strategist now?

Obamadrought!

Obamasandy!

Obamaholocaust!

I CALL YOU A MEAN NAME I WIN

136 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:52:16am

re: #103 Ghost of Tom Joad

Sounds like the 7-11s out here on Lawnguyland.

Sounds like pretty much everywhere. I live in an urban area of North Jersey and there’s a place about a 1/4 mile from my apartment where Hispanic (mostly Central American) & African immigrants gather waiting for the pick-up trucks. Ditto back in South Texas, where it was mostly Mexicans.

137 HappyWarrior  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:53:13am

Yeah everything was just great before minimum wage. My god, I can understand being reluctant to raise it often because of inflation which is a reasonable argument but acting like minimum wage itself is bad? Bunch of primitives.

138 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:53:52am

Wingnuts keep mentioning this document. It does not say what they think it should say.

139 iossarian  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:53:58am

re: #131 stabby

I have a new word for Republicans rhetoric “Obamasterbation”

Gets rid of Boehners, and fast!

140 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:54:38am

re: #132 Kragar (Antichrist )

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]

The Guardian has pretty much completely rewritten their article from this morning
Note: This article was redrafted at 5.30pm GMT on 13 February 2013 due to new information about the possible meaning of the word “burner” coming to light.

141 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:54:43am

re: #134 erik_t

Rich AND ignorant. He should vote Repub.

142 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:55:15am

re: #135 iossarian

Obamadrought!

Obamasandy!

Obamaholocaust!

I CALL YOU A MEAN NAME I WIN

Image: 9PX4L4t.gif

143 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:55:24am

re: #138 Vicious Babushka

Wingnuts keep mentioning this document. It does not say what they think it should say.

Hey look, his Manifesto calls for people to pay taxes and allows for the government to spend money to promote the common good.

144 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:56:28am

I forgot to add “and talking like a douche!”

145 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:56:30am
146 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:57:03am

re: #120 Kragar (Antichrist )

Accidents are one thing. Deliberately burning down a house with a fugitive inside is someplace we do not want to go.

Has a sort of Old West sound to it.

147 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:57:17am

Ironically the “burner” is slang for Burn Safe brand tear gas canisters that are designed to not set fires.

148 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:57:31am

re: #140 Killgore Trout

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

149 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:58:14am

re: #143 Kragar (Antichrist )

Hey look, his Manifesto calls for people to pay taxes and allows for the government to spend money to promote the common good.

Hey now, we all know that “General Welfare” doesn’t count because it’s in the preamble. But “Common Defense” does when we want to explain why the Air Force is constitutional.

//

150 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:58:33am

re: #135 iossarian

Obamadrought!

Obamasandy!

Obamaholocaust!

I CALL YOU A MEAN NAME I WIN

Obamaghazi is too much though. Do not cross the meme streams!

151 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:59:34am

re: #135 iossarian

Obamaghazi. /for the win.

152 danarchy  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:59:43am

re: #132 Kragar (Antichrist )

Ah, OK then. Where did you see the debunking so I can read it?

What I heard was that the CS canisters are a brand called BurnSafe and the cop slang for them is Burners. Not sure I am ready to give them the benefit of the doubt after the way they’ve bungled things.

BurnSafe

153 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:59:47am

re: #136 CuriousLurker

Sounds like pretty much everywhere. I live in an urban area of North Jersey and there’s a place about a 1/4 mile form my apartment where Hispanic (mostly Central American) & African immigrants gather waiting for the pick-up trucks. Ditto back in South Texas, where it was mostly Mexicans.

I knew where the spot was in Freehold since I drove by it now and then on Saturday mornings.

154 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 11:59:55am

re: #136 CuriousLurker

Sounds like pretty much everywhere. I live in an urban area of North Jersey and there’s a place about a 1/4 mile from my apartment where Hispanic (mostly Central American) & African immigrants gather waiting for the pick-up trucks. Ditto back in South Texas, where it was mostly Mexicans.

and we tolerate this sort of thing in our country in the name of “free enterprise”?

155 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:00:47pm

re: #152 danarchy

What I heard was that the CS canisters are a brand called BurnSafe and the cop slang for them is Burners. Not sure I am ready to give them the benefit of the doubt after the way they’ve bungled things.

BurnSafe

Everything is still under the 24 hour rule as far as I’m concerned.

156 Targetpractice  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:01:54pm

re: #154 Sol Berdinowitz

and we tolerate this sort of thing in our country in the name of “free enterprise”?

We tolerate it because we like to tell ourselves it’s not slavery if they get paid.

157 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:03:01pm

re: #152 danarchy

What I heard was that the CS canisters are a brand called BurnSafe and the cop slang for them is Burners. Not sure I am ready to give them the benefit of the doubt after the way they’ve bungled things.

BurnSafe

LA times reports they used several different types
[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com…]

Hoping to end the standoff, law enforcement authorities first lobbed “traditional” tear gas into the cabin. When that did not work, they opted to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire. This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen. It is often used to drive barricaded individuals out.

158 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:03:43pm

Modesto Police Won’t Confirm Gunman Dead, but Search Is Over for Killer of Deputy, Locksmith - Featured Stories - Modbee.com

Friday afternoon, Modesto police officer Chris Adams insisted that SWAT teams did nothing that would have started the blaze.

He said there are two types of tear gas cannisters police use. One is an incendiary cannister called a “burner,” which can start a fire, Adams said. The department doesn’t deploy burners; it only uses nonincendiary cannisters.

But the cops on that scanner audio are talking about “burners.”

159 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:04:24pm

It also doesn’t help that the police had very itchy trigger fingers and already lied about the second incident involving shooting at the wrong truck.

160 allegro  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:05:01pm

re: #158 Charles Johnson

Modesto Police Won’t Confirm Gunman Dead, but Search Is Over for Killer of Deputy, Locksmith - Featured Stories - Modbee.com

But the cops on that scanner audio are talking about “burners.”

Could it be that he used the term generically, kinda like Kleenix=tissue?

161 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:05:51pm

re: #155 Kragar (Antichrist )

Everything is still under the 24 hour rule as far as I’m concerned.

…and it’s still possible he started the fire himself before he shot himself. The MSM reporting (like the la times report) may be confusing terminaology about “traditional” tear gas and “CS” canisters. Either way, I think it’s very unlikely the police started the fire intentionally and the “burner” slang seems well established.

162 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:06:00pm

re: #154 Sol Berdinowitz

and we tolerate this sort of thing in our country in the name of “free enterprise”?

Hey, I just thought of a great idea for a small business! Send “Gruel Trucks” to inner city neighborhoods. EBT accepted!

163 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:06:27pm

re: #158 Charles Johnson

Modesto Police Won’t Confirm Gunman Dead, but Search Is Over for Killer of Deputy, Locksmith - Featured Stories - Modbee.com

But the cops on that scanner audio are talking about “burners.”

There were a whole bunch of different agencies out there. Could be someone was just using a generic term their agency uses, regardless of what was actually used.

You can be damn sure this whole operation is going to be picked apart from Dorner’s firing to yesterday’s events.

164 leftynyc  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:06:47pm

re: #7 stabby

Min wage jobs in the US are service jobs like fast food that DO NOT compete with the third world and where the cost of labor is not most of the cost, so no one is going out of business for raising the cost of a hamburger 25 cents. Are you going to buy hamburgers from China? No, you won’t even notice the difference when they raise the price.

Also, on a similar note, the CEO of Whole Foods needs to be replaced for whining that his company can’t afford health care because it would make them raise costs:
1) they’ve never competed on price and never will. Shopping at Whole Foods costs 4 times what the cheapest markets do already.

2) their customers are liberal yuppies who buy fair trade, environmentally sustainable, organic coffee and would be overjoyed to know that they’re paying a little extra to make sure that the employees where they buy food have health care.

The fucker needs to be fired.

That CEO is doing his level best to tank his business. It’s like he doesn’t know who his customers are and I know quite a few that have sworn off WF forever. Too much competition to go to a place where the CEO is such a schmuck. Let the teabaggers keep him afloat.

165 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:07:33pm

re: #160 allegro

Could it be that he used the term generically, kinda like Kleenix=tissue?

I don’t know. Sure, it’s possible. But it seems to me that it would be odd to call something a “burner” if it doesn’t cause burning.

But I’m pointing out that this is definitely not a settled matter, and it hasn’t been debunked.

166 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:10:10pm

The Modesto police officer is pretty clear that the term “burner” is used to refer to the tear gas canisters that can cause fires.

167 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:10:42pm

Rule#1: If it is being reported by news media it is likely at least partially inaccurate.

168 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:10:49pm

re: #165 Charles Johnson

I don’t know. Sure, it’s possible. But it seems to me that it would be odd to call something a “burner” if it doesn’t cause burning.

But I’m pointing out that this is definitely not a settled matter, and it hasn’t been debunked.

[Link: www.tomahawkburnsafe.com…]

All the canisters work by the same chemical process but the burnsafe canisters are designed to minimize fire risk. Obviously not 100% but safer than other canisters.

169 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:10:52pm

I’m sorry, I think it’s a big stretch to claim that a canister not intended to burn stuff is called a burner.
That is just stupid. It would cause all kinds of confusion since they also have incendiary canisters.
Call me skeptical.

170 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:12:26pm

re: #169 Varek Raith

I’m sorry, I think it’s a big stretch to claim that a canister not intended to burn stuff is called a burner.
That is just stupid. It would cause all kinds of confusion since they also have incendiary canisters.
Call me skeptical.

I agree. It doesn’t make sense.

171 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:14:17pm

re: #169 Varek Raith

That it’s terminology for all CS grenades isn’t much of a stretch for me, especially because I doubt the incendiary types get a lot of usage. Slang can be weird.

Anyway, I’d be fine if they did set the fire on purpose, because it seems like a good last step to get him to give the fuck up and get out. If they have to burst in on him, there’s little chance they’re not going to kill him. The fire, to me, represents another chance for the asshole to give the fuck up.

172 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:14:58pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

It also doesn’t help that the police had very itchy trigger fingers and already lied about the second incident involving shooting at the wrong truck.

Why would an itchy finger cause the trigger to be pulled quickly? Is firing a gun somehow satisfying to a finger? Could an itchy finger not be equally satisfied picking a nose?

173 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:15:34pm

Iran’s Fake Stealth Plane Photoshopped Into Flight

When Iran unveiled its new stealth jet aviation experts were skeptical about the plane’s flying abilities. In order to quiet their critics, a picture was posted of the Qaher-313 in action. But it didn’t quiet the critics. It made them laugh. The photoshopped picture of Iran’s fake stealth plane has become an international internet joke.

According to the Daily Mail, the photo shows the plane in the exact position that it was in during its unveiling.

The Atlantic Wire notes that the snowy mountains in the background are the same mountains used in a stock photograph.

174 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:15:49pm

re: #169 Varek Raith

I’m sorry, I think it’s a big stretch to claim that a canister not intended to burn stuff is called a burner.
That is just stupid. It would cause all kinds of confusion since they also have incendiary canisters.
Call me skeptical.

It’s in the brand name “burn safe” it burns but it’s supposed to do so safely. They are all incendiary canisters. The chemical process is ruled by the laws of physics. I’m pretty sure the police to not carry canisters that are incendiary and designed for the purpose of actually starting fires.

175 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:16:09pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

It also doesn’t help that the police had very itchy trigger fingers and already lied about the second incident involving shooting at the wrong truck.

This is an entirely different police department, though. The actions of the LAPD and Riverside really shouldn’t reflect on these guys. So far, I don’t think the cops have made any sort of official statement on what went down and how it went down.

176 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:16:16pm

re: #154 Sol Berdinowitz

and we tolerate this sort of thing in our country in the name of “free enterprise”?

Yep. My dad was a carpenter by trade, and that’s how he and all the other small business contractors (electricians, roofers, bricklayers, cement/asphalt guys, etc.) got their day laborers. They fed them and treated them well, and they paid more than others, but I’m sure they didn’t pay minimum wage (I don’t remember what it was back in the sixties & seventies, but it couldn’t have been much).

It was hard, hot, and often dangerous work, with little or no protection for the workers, but they jumped at the chance because it was better than wherever they came from and they had mouths to feed. It sucked, but it was the status quo. I’m sure little has changed since then.

177 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:16:28pm

I’d be a lot less inclined to give any credence to the idea that the police deliberately set the fire if they hadn’t been running around LA opening fire on random people.

178 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:16:48pm

re: #177 Charles Johnson

I’d be a lot less inclined to give any credence to the idea that the police deliberately set the fire if they hadn’t been running around LA opening fire on random people.

Bingo.

179 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:17:02pm

re: #171 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

That it’s terminology for all CS grenades isn’t much of a stretch for me, especially because I doubt the incendiary types get a lot of usage. Slang can be weird.

Anyway, I’d be fine if they did set the fire on purpose, because it seems like a good last step to get him to give the fuck up and get out. If they have to burst in on him, there’s little chance they’re not going to kill him. The fire, to me, represents another chance for the asshole to give the fuck up.

If the bullet was self administered then he did give up.

180 Bulworth  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:17:08pm

re: #138 Vicious Babushka

So at one time this person evidently believed that slaves should count as 3/5ths of a person and then later he or she changed their mind. And the no religious test part. Does the person know that is in their Manifesto?

181 darthstar  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:18:07pm

Only two more nights of sunset music to go…I took this shot this morning when I went back to find my prescription sunglasses which I dropped while shaking martinis for my friends who came with me to watch the performance last night. (because that’s how we roll)

Image: 485262_10151449598158024_132016057_n.jpg

Oh, and I found my glasses! Nestled in some tall weeds by some old concrete foundation.

182 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:18:11pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hey, earlier this morning you mentioned you thought it was ‘very illegal’ for cops to set fire to a building. Can you back this up? To me, since they were in contact with the owner, I don’t think— as long as they had a really good idea there weren’t other people inside— setting fire to the house would be a big deal. They’re allowed to fire round into it, to crash into it with a truck— why would it be particularly illegal for them to set fire to it? Do you think it’d constitute excessive force?

183 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:19:06pm

re: #173 Kragar (Antichrist )

Iran’s Fake Stealth Plane Photoshopped Into Flight

Interesting lighting. It almost looks like a spotlight.
LOL

184 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:19:13pm

re: #177 Charles Johnson

I’d be a lot less inclined to give any credence to the idea that the police deliberately set the fire if they hadn’t been running around LA opening fire on random people.

Setting fire to a house where a very desperate, armed fugitive who’s shown his willingness to remorselessly kill seems like a very good idea to me, as opposed to randomly opening fire on people delivering newspapers based on a vague similarity in the truck.

185 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:19:29pm

re: #180 Bulworth

So at one time this person evidently believed that slaves should count as 3/5ths of a person and then later he or she changed their mind. And the no religious test part. Does the person know that is in their Manifesto?

the onion nailed this guy ages ago:

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

186 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:20:14pm

re: #171 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

That it’s terminology for all CS grenades isn’t much of a stretch for me, especially because I doubt the incendiary types get a lot of usage. Slang can be weird.

Anyway, I’d be fine if they did set the fire on purpose, because it seems like a good last step to get him to give the fuck up and get out. If they have to burst in on him, there’s little chance they’re not going to kill him. The fire, to me, represents another chance for the asshole to give the fuck up.

Pretty much. If it’s guaranteed to be him, alone, and he’s not giving up, then I’d rather they not chance more losses in a hostile entry. Especially this guy, with his training, who could have booby-trapped things and taken out a bunch of guys before being taken out.

I’m sure the legality of the whole thing would be haggled over if it indeed happened that way, but again, seemed like the best decision out of a list of bad decisions.

187 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:21:57pm

Recalling that Labor Economics 340 class I took 25 years ago informs me that because the higher cost would affect all competitors basically equally, it can easily be passed on the the consumers in the form of prices increases. Those price increases should be barely noticeable and result in very little substitution effect by consumers. Pretty standard low-pay operation scenario: ($Payroll/$TotSales) x ($MinWages/$TotPayroll) x (%WageIncrease) = %HigherCost; 0.25 x 0.40 x .24 = 2.4% cost increase => ~2% price increase.

And because these are (still) very low-pay/skilled jobs by definition, there is little (additional) incentive to invest in automation or ship operations to lower pay areas.

So even the “economic theory” these guys are touting doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

188 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:22:49pm

re: #184 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Setting fire to a house where a very desperate, armed fugitive who’s shown his willingness to remorselessly kill seems like a very good idea to me, as opposed to randomly opening fire on people delivering newspapers based on a vague similarity in the truck.

Hey, I’m totally on the side of the cops, and if the fire was deliberately set I’m not opposed to that in principle. What bothers me about this whole incident is that it really looks like the police were not very professional. I understand the feelings involved and sympathize, but police are not supposed to be driven by vendettas.

189 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:22:54pm

Poll Shows A Dismal Approval Rating For Bobby Jindal

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) has emerged as a national voice for the Republican Party, but a poll released Wednesday suggested that his star has may have severely diminished at home.

According to findings from Democratic-leaning Public Policy Polling, a mere 37 percent of Louisiana voters approve of the job Jindal is doing compared with a majority of 57 percent who disapprove. When PPP last conducted a survey in Louisiana in 2010, 58 percent of voters said they approved of Jindal’s job performance while only 34 percent disapproved.

190 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:22:54pm

re: #187 Jocko’s Rocket Ship

How does this higher cost affect all competitors equally, please?

191 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:23:46pm

re: #187 Jocko’s Rocket Ship

So even the “economic theory” these guys are touting doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

GOP economic theory in a nutshell: as tax rate and government regulation approach zero, job growth approaches infinity.

192 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:24:15pm

re: #190 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Because all competitors are required to pay it, dahhhhhhhhh.

193 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:25:06pm

re: #188 Charles Johnson

To me it’s just bad PR, but this is almost certainly the most insane situation they’ve ever been in, and I think that brain-melting under the circumstances isn’t unexpected. It does show that cops are just very human, and so oversight is a very rational thing to want.

194 geoffm33  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:25:26pm

re: #190 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

How does this higher cost affect all competitors equally, please?

All things being equal between competitors (Joe’s Coffee Shop vs Bill’s Coffee shop across town) the wage increase should impact them equally.

All things not being equal (Joe’s Coffee Shop vs Starbucks across town) rule would not seem to apply.

195 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:25:46pm

Laser-like focus, etc. —

196 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:26:42pm

re: #190 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

How does this higher cost affect all competitors equally, please?

Because shut up, that’s why.

///

197 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:26:43pm

re: #192 stabby

Because all competitors are required to pay it, dahhhhhhhhh.

All competitors aren’t going to have the same staffing level or staffing structure. Competitors who already pay above the minimum wage, for example, wouldn’t have to pay it. Competitors that had lower turnover and more expert staff can run fewer people on shift, thus reducing time— Starbucks, for example, is a workplace that aims for that model.

So the question is ‘are all competitors to pay it equally’, and the answer is ‘no’.

198 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:27:30pm

re: #184 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Setting fire to a house where a very desperate, armed fugitive who’s shown his willingness to remorselessly kill seems like a very good idea to me, as opposed to randomly opening fire on people delivering newspapers based on a vague similarity in the truck.

I’m behind I think. What reason do we have to claim the fire was deliberately set besides SWAT slang about tear gas?

199 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:27:48pm

re: #188 Charles Johnson

Hey, I’m totally on the side of the cops, and if the fire was deliberately set I’m not opposed to that in principle. What bothers me about this whole incident is that it really looks like the police were not very professional. I understand the feelings involved and sympathize, but police are not supposed to be driven by vendettas.

I don’t have a problem with a cop acting like a human being as long as he performs his duties. They had the guy surrounded, with SWAT team present, tear gas going in, and a vehicle tearing down the walls to get to him. Deliberately setting the house on fire seems like overkill to me at that point.

200 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:28:22pm

My surprise, let me show you it:

201 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:29:21pm

re: #197 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Competitors who already pay above the minimum wage, for example, wouldn’t have to pay it.

They’re already paying it.

Your argument against raising the minimum wage is… it’s unfair that some companies already pay more than it? Well that’s no more logical an argument than I expect.

202 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:29:27pm

re: #198 Political Atheist

I’m behind i think. What reason do we have to claim the fire was deliberately besides SWAT slang about tear gas?

Radio traffic and debate over terminology.

203 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:29:48pm

re: #198 Political Atheist

I’m behind i think. What reason do we have to claim the fire was deliberately besides SWAT slang about tear gas?

Because people seem to think the police were afraid of what Dorner would reveal about them and wanted to make sure he was killed and not taken alive.

204 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:29:57pm

re: #201 stabby

They’re already paying it.

Your argument against raising the minimum wage is… it’s unfair that some companies already pay more than it? Well that’s no more logical an argument than I expect.

I’m not arguing against raising the minimum wage, silly boy.

205 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:31:00pm

re: #204 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Then you’re mouthing off for no reason?

Ok.

206 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:32:36pm

re: #199 Kragar (Antichrist )

I don’t have a problem with a cop acting like a human being as long as he performs his duties. They had the guy surrounded, with SWAT team present, tear gas going in, and a vehicle tearing down the walls to get to him. Deliberately setting the house on fire seems like overkill to me at that point.

I’ve seen the technique used in old cheesy cowboy movies but when was the last time you’ve heard of cops intentionally setting a fire to smoke out a suspect? It probably hasn’t happened in a very long time.

207 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:32:38pm

re: #205 stabby

No, he’s saying that the argument that an increase in the minimum wage is bad because all the costs are shared equally is stupid.

208 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:32:39pm

Slang for non-incendiary device is ‘burner’.
Except, the Modesto PD calls incendiary devices ‘burners’.
So…
Paging Orwell.

209 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:33:05pm

In any case, while deliberately setting a fire to a structure where a fugitive is holed up may make sense tactically, I seriously doubt that it’s an officially-approved tactic. Probably not specifically prohibited, because after all it’s not something that comes up very much. But deliberately destroying property seems like it wouldn’t be looked on as a good thing, normally.

I can’t escape the feeling that there was an unspoken agreement that Dorner was never going to be taken alive.

210 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:33:05pm

re: #202 Kragar (Antichrist )

Radio traffic and debate over terminology.

Almost nada. Got it. The idea the fire was deliberately set is a big enough accusation that it will require better evidence than angry talk about tear gas canisters that burn by necessity of the design.

Same as any other half baked accusation.

211 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:33:39pm

re: #194 geoffm33

All things being equal between competitors (Joe’s Coffee Shop vs Bill’s Coffee shop across town) the wage increase should impact them equally.

All things not being equal (Joe’s Coffee Shop vs Starbucks across town) rule would not seem to apply.

The likelihood they have the exact same staffing levels is low. Raising the minimum wage has a theoretical complex effect, since it may raise the value of a skilled worker even more.

And costs aren’t automatically passed to the customer, either. If the product is purely discretionary, then a simple price raise at any point can depress the demand for it. People can actually decide that there’s a limit on what they’ll pay for X, even if they’re habituated to it. The companies may just accept a lower profit margin, or they may even find that with the higher wage, their employees have lower turnover, fewer sick days, and cross-train better— all benefits to raising the minimum wage that have been shown in various places.

212 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:34:09pm

re: #207 Lidane

He just denied meaning that it’s bad. I think his motivation is more like posing as smarter than other people, not taking a stand.

213 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:34:16pm

re: #195 Lidane

Laser-like focus, etc. —

This from a dead deer whisperer who eschews science in favour of mythology.

214 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:34:31pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I’ve seen the technique used in old cheesy cowboy movies but when was the last time you’ve heard of cops intentionally setting a fire to smoke out a suspect? It probably hasn’t happened in a very long time.

I doubt they’ve had a situation like this in a very long time. Targeted killing of police officers by an ex-military ex-cop…large arsenal at his disposal…

Flustercluck.

215 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:35:20pm

So, which police departments were in the vicinity of the cabin where Dorner apparently holed up?

San Bernadino PD?
San Bernardino County Sheriffs?
LAPD?
California Department of Fish and Wildlife?
CHP?

Others? Do we have a full list of which agencies were on scene?

That’s the first step to unraveling what happened.

Once we figure out who’s there, then we can get to whether they have consistent lingo for tear gas, incendiaries, or gear? And if they don’t then that could potentially address discrepancies as to why we might be hearing calls for burners, etc. Or that someone from another agency might be seeing canisters tossed in and smoke coming out and thinking that it was a different kind of canister - it was a totally chaotic situation where a tremendous amount of gunfire was exchanged (and it will be some time before we know how many rounds were expended by Dorner and separately by the LEOs).

It will be some time before we know the precise details.

216 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:35:32pm

re: #208 Varek Raith

Slang for non-incendiary device is ‘burner’.
Except, the Modesto PD calls incendiary devices ‘burners’.
So…
Paging Orwell.

They are all incendiary, it’s part of the chemical process. The Burnsafe canisters still burn, if they didn’t then they wouldn’t produce the gas. It’d not a difficult concept to understand.

217 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:35:57pm

re: #207 Lidane

No, he’s saying that the argument that an increase in the minimum wage is bad because all the costs are shared equally is stupid.

No, I’m just saying it’s wrong that all costs are shared equally. Companies have different staffing levels, so their costs are different. If one company uses 20 people to serve 1000 people, and another company uses 10 people to serve 1000 people, the latter company is going to competitively benefit from a raise in the minimum wage laws.

Since studies have shown that we don’t lose jobs from minimum wage, what happens is the first, more exploitative company finds its profit margin lower and may try to pass on the cost, depressing their share of the market, while the company that was already using fewer staff— or already paying more than minimum wage— is going to benefit.

218 efuseakay  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:36:07pm

re: #113 Big Steve

funny…..several graduate level classes in macroeconomics at Rice University seem to argue that it is a zero sum game.

Notice this guy didn’t even say if he passed.

Btw, Bush Jr. went to Harvard. “Taking classes” at any university doesn’t automatically make you an authority on any given subject.

219 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:36:48pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

They are all incendiary, it’s part of the chemical process. The Burnsafe canisters still burn, if they didn’t then they wouldn’t produce the gas. It’d not a difficult concept to understand.

Since we know that people have used ‘burner’ as slang for both the ones that start fires and the ones that don’t, deciding which one was meant at this point isn’t possible.

220 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:36:57pm

Gee, you’ll forgive me for thinking that a burner might actually burn stuff.
Silly me.

221 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:37:39pm

Fire never melted steel!

222 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:37:43pm

re: #219 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Since we know that people have used ‘burner’ as slang for both the ones that start fires and the ones that don’t, deciding which one was meant at this point isn’t possible.

And that’s my issue with this nonsense.

223 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:37:54pm

I’m calling bullshit on the fire being deliberately set pending testimony or a memo or something more. Using tear gas is not setting a fire. After all the Branch Davidian lies about the FBI, I’m not buying it. There are too many brain dead conspirators who just live to give law enforcement a bad name.

224 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:38:05pm

re: #217 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Why are you bothering to lecture us on marginal effects that don’t put people or companies out of business? You think you’re the only person here who is aware that there are unimportant, second approximation effects? Why assume that? Because everyone is an idiot but you?

225 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:38:17pm

re: #212 stabby

He just denied meaning that it’s bad. I think his motivation is more like posing as smarter than other people, not taking a stand.

I’m universally for a very significant raise in the minimum wage, for reasons that I detailed above. It doesn’t make us lose jobs, the very worst possible effect it has is giving a very slight incentive towards automation or under-staffing but it also gives an incentive to paying more than minimum wage and rewards companies that already do so.

226 Bubblehead II  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:38:22pm

Doesn’t look good for the LEA when coupled to the scanner traffic. They knew there was a significant chance of starting a fire

Dorner manhunt: Incendiary tear gas reportedly used on cabin

Hoping to end the standoff, law enforcement authorities first lobbed “traditional” tear gas into the cabin. When that did not work, they opted to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire. This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen. It is often used to drive barricaded individuals out.

227 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:38:27pm

Yep, I just like a truther.
Totally.

228 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:38:39pm

re: #200 Lidane

During a war no less.

Imagine if the Democrats did that during GWB’s presidency. They’d be calling Democrats traitors or worse (calling for impeachment). Instead, they’re going to gum up the works for the CIA at a time when we’ve still got all kinds of threats that aren’t sitting still and dealing with a smooth transfer is key.

I figure that based on how Reid said he would ignore the holds on Hagel’s nomination, that he would likely do the same for Brennan. Move that they go to the floor for a vote. If Paul wants to block, that’s his prerogative.

229 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:40:06pm

re: #224 stabby

Why are you bothering to lecture us on marginal effects that don’t put people or companies out of business? You think you’re the only person here who is aware that there are unimportant, second approximation effects? Why assume that? Because everyone is an idiot but you?

Because the original statement wasn’t correct. It doesn’t affect all competitors equally. It’s just not something that’s true, and I wanted to point that out— because faulty arguments in support of something good isn’t good.

If you think you can throw a tantrum and have any effect on me, don’t kid yourself, broheim.

230 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:40:16pm

re: #219 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Since we know that people have used ‘burner’ as slang for both the ones that start fires and the ones that don’t, deciding which one was meant at this point isn’t possible.

I don’t believe that was confirmed - in fact it was specifically contradicted by a police officer on the record, in a different incident where a fire was started:

Friday afternoon, Modesto police officer Chris Adams insisted that SWAT teams did nothing that would have started the blaze.

He said there are two types of tear gas cannisters police use. One is an incendiary cannister called a “burner,” which can start a fire, Adams said. The department doesn’t deploy burners; it only uses nonincendiary cannisters.

231 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:40:50pm

re: #226 Bubblehead II

Doesn’t look good for the LEA when coupled to the scanner traffic. They knew there was a significant chance of starting a fire

Except there’s no reason not to use that. As the article says, its often used to drive barricaded subjects out. Clearly, a risk of fire when using it is already accepted as common practice in these circumstances.

232 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:41:37pm

If Dorner burned alive, it is most likely because he refused to come out, not because the police set the house on fire.

233 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:42:36pm

re: #229 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

You’re absolutely consistent in tone, I’ll give you that.

234 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:43:13pm

re: #223 Political Atheist

I’m calling bullshit on the fire being deliberately set pending testimony or a memo or something more. Using tear gas is not setting a fire. After all the Branch Davidian lies about the FBI, I’m not buying it. There are too many brain dead conspirators who just live to give law enforcement a bad name.

…also the conspiracy would have to been planned very cleverly. Police would have to know ahead of time that using the common slang for the burnsafe on the radio knowing that people would hear it and think they were intentionally setting the fire and then use the slang excuse for actually setting the fire under the ruse of using the safer canisters. It’s just absurd and laughable.

235 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:43:18pm

re: #233 stabby

You’re absolutely consistent in tone, I’ll give you that.

Dude, give it a rest.
;)

236 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:43:19pm

re: #233 stabby

Do you have an actual problem with anything I said?

237 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:43:51pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Hey, I can’t remember where you said that you’d seen it confirmed that this is common slang for burnsafe. Mind relinking?

238 allegro  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:43:59pm

Regardless of the details, I don’t see Dorner as a guy who was ever going to surrender to arrest. His death, by whatever means whether by his own hand or in a shoot-out, seemed inevitable. I can, and do, fault police for a number of ghastly failures during the manhunt, but not for Dorner’s end.

239 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:44:00pm

re: #233 stabby

You’re absolutely consistent in tone, I’ll give you that.

Bloody hell, you can be a dick.

240 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:44:48pm

That quote from Modesto police officer Chris Adams is from a different incident in which a fire was started by “burners.” So it’s pretty clear that there’s been controversy about this before. It seems very odd to me that police would call the non-incendiary devices “burners.”

I just don’t know, and there doesn’t appear to be much about it online except that one statement on the record which seems to indicate that “burners” is used only for the incendiary devices.

241 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:44:57pm

I think Dorner is alive and faked his death to run away with Elvis and Jim Morrison to have a tropical love triangle.

242 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:45:25pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

I think Dorner is alive and faked his death to run away with Elvis and Jim Morrison to have a tropical love triangle in Benghazi.

243 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:45:42pm

re: #209 Charles Johnson

In any case, while deliberately setting a fire to a structure where a fugitive is holed up may make sense tactically, I seriously doubt that it’s an officially-approved tactic. Probably not specifically prohibited, because after all it’s not something that comes up very much. But deliberately destroying property seems like it wouldn’t be looked on as a good thing, normally.

I can’t escape the feeling that there was an unspoken agreement that Dorner was never going to be taken alive.

Personally, I’m quite sure there was no intention of taking Dorner alive. I had a cousin on the LAPD, and once when I asked her what they would do if they had a cop who turned into a serial killer or something like that, she said - quite openly and quite bluntly - there was no way he’d be taken alive. This was in reference to Richard Ramirez, who was terrorizing Los Angeles at that time. That came up because we were sitting around, bored, at a family reunion and the subject of the Night Stalker came up, and another cousin said, “What if he’s a cop?” and I asked my cousin, “Yeah…..what if you guys knew that the Night Stalker was a cop? What would you do?” And she said, “He’d be shot on sight. End of story.”

244 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:45:55pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

…also the conspiracy would have to been planned very cleverly. Police would have to know ahead of time that using the common slang for the burnsafe on the radio knowing that people would hear it and think they were intentionally setting the fire and then use the slang excuse for actually setting the fire under the ruse of using the safer canisters. It’s just absurd and laughable.

You don’t know that “burners” is common slang for the Burnsafe devices - you’re just assuming that.

245 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:47:14pm

New radio program coming. Get your questions ready to call in!


Ron Paul Makes National Radio Debut With Courtside

BEVERLY HILLS, Calif., Feb. 13, 2013 /PRNewswire/ — Courtside Entertainment Group announced today that former Congressman and Presidential Candidate Ron Paul will make his national radio and podcast debut March 18, 2013. Ron Paul’s Americawill feature one of America’s most popular public figures sharing his thoughts and opinions on the issues listeners care about in twice daily one-minute radio commentaries with radio veteran and bestselling author Charles Goyette as his sidekick. In addition to the daily commentaries, Ron Paul’s America will also be available as a weekly podcast to satisfy the growing demand for on-demand digital content.

246 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:47:34pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

I think Dorner is alive and faked his death to run away with Elvis and Jim Morrison to have a tropical love triangle.

One word
One number

AREA
51!

‘nuff said

247 efuseakay  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:49:51pm

“Burners” = hot young chicks and no-contract cell phones. Oh I get it. It’s an Obamaphone conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!

248 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:50:13pm

Dorner Manhunt: Incendiary Tear Gas Reportedly Used on Cabin

Faced with regular barrages of gunfire, officers confronting suspected killer Christopher Dorner lobbed incendiary tear gas into the cabin where Dorner allegedly was holed up, said law enforcement officials with knowledge of the situation.

The cabin caught on fire and authorities believe Dorner was burned inside. A body was discovered but authorities have not confirmed it was Dorner.

Law enforcement sources said the officers got into several gun battles with Dorner during a nearly four-hour siege at the cabin in the Big Bear area. The standoff began when Dorner allegedly fatally shot a San Bernardino County sheriff’s deputy and seriously injured another.

SWAT officers surrounding the cabin were under a “constant barrage of gunfire,” one source said. “He put himself in that position. There weren’t a lot of options.”

Hoping to end the standoff, law enforcement authorities first lobbed “traditional” tear gas into the cabin. When that did not work, they opted to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire. This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen. It is often used to drive barricaded individuals out.

249 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:50:59pm

Yep, they used “burners,” all right, and when they said it they meant incendiary devices. That settles it.

250 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:51:09pm

This somehow seems appropriate right now.

Shit-Caked, Urine-Soaked Man Determined To Enjoy Carnival Cruise

251 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:51:23pm

re: #245 NJDhockeyfan

New radio program coming. Get your questions ready to call in!

Ron Paul Makes National Radio Debut With Courtside

Dr. Paul

How come we’ve never seen a photo of you and Dennis Kucinich in the same room together?
//

252 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:51:46pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I’ve seen the technique used in old cheesy cowboy movies but when was the last time you’ve heard of cops intentionally setting a fire to smoke out a suspect? It probably hasn’t happened in a very long time.

Cheesy perhaps, but documented to have been done at least twice. During the Lincoln County War in 1878 during a 5-day “siege” of a house that had William Bonney (aka Billy the Kid) in it. Also to a hotel in Australia by the police while dealing with the Ned Kelly gang. Again, after a prolonged exchange of gunfire.

253 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:51:55pm

I guess it wasn’t a conspiracy theory after all.

254 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:52:24pm

re: #249 Charles Johnson

Well, until someone in law enforcement who’s actually willing to put their name to it, I wouldn’t say it’s settled. If those are just anonymous sources, they might be interpreting it using their own department’s slang.

It does make sense, though, they are used against barricaded dudes, they do, like, exist, and enough time had passed that it’d be the obvious next move for the cops.

255 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:53:14pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

I think Dorner is alive and faked his death to run away with Elvis and Jim Morrison to have a tropical love triangle.

Wrong. He’d be with Biggie & Tupac if it was the LAPD . Alternatively, if it was a plot hatched by President Obama, then he’d be on an island somewhere with OBL.

//

256 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:54:26pm

re: #254 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

It also shows that there’s nothing at all conspiratorial about thinking they set the fire. The conspiracy would be thinking they set the fire in order to flat-out kill him. There’s some early report about someone trying to leave but being ‘driven back inside’, but that was a really vague report that doesn’t seem to make much sense. They may just mean that he went back inside after getting a glimpse of them, or it might be total baloney.

257 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:54:53pm

re: #249 Charles Johnson

Yep, they used “burners,” all right, and when they said it they meant incendiary devices. That settles it.

It should be emphasized that the CS gas is produced in a combustion reaction within the grenade. That’s how you make it; there isn’t a little tank of gas inside or something. I do not believe there is such a thing as a non-incendiary CS grenade. As the gas is objectively more potent in its respiratory effects, it is not a foregone conclusion that the grenades were tossed because of their frequent incendiary side-effect.

In fact, this seems like an entirely likely possibility. They’re ‘burners’ in the vernacular because they make things burn and burning stuff is kinda cool, but they were thrown because they are more chemically potent.

258 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:55:59pm

re: #243 Dr Lizardo

Personally, I’m quite sure there was no intention of taking Dorner alive.

I suspect Dorner was aware of that and had no intention of letting anone take him alive.

259 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:56:04pm

re: #257 erik_t

And the cops recognize there’s a significant risk of fire with them, but that’s acceptable in some circumstances— like crazy-ass bastard who’s already murdered several and has military and police training holed up in a cabin having had tons of time to surrender peacefully.

260 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:56:31pm

re: #236 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Do you have an actual problem with anything I said?

Is there any other thing where you believe side A but you’re going to pedantically argue not-A on technicalities?

Maybe you want to take a side against slavery while arguing that it wasn’t as bad as people said. Who knows. There’s no end to the horrible things you can argue for without meaning it, just to show that you’re aware of unimportant things that people leave out of their arguments because they could be construed as supporting the very wrong side.

261 danarchy  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:56:42pm

re: #249 Charles Johnson

Yep, they used “burners,” all right, and when they said it they meant incendiary devices. That settles it.

What does it settle? The main purpose was to release gas not to set the cabin on fire. It is a device that has a higher risk of that which in the circumstances they accepted, doesn’t mean they intentionally set the cabin on fire though.

262 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:57:06pm

Smoke grenades, too, are “incendiary” in a sense. They generate their smoke by combustion, because storing the reagents as solids is much more volumetrically efficient than storing gas. Because gas is low-density. Duh.

It’s a tricky phrasing challenge, because in traditional use incendiary devices are designed explicitly to cause things to burn. It is not a side effect.

263 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:57:21pm

re: #254 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Playbook/flowchart (condensed):

1) attempt to talk ‘em out
2) if shot at, return fire, but continue attempt to talk ‘em out;
3) fire smoke canisters in attempt to flush out;
4) if unsuccessful, move to CS canisters, that have been shown to ignite fires but are more likely to flush out suspect due to irritant nature of CS;
5) continue attempts to flush out suspect with CS and look to prevent further loss of life or other casualties from gunfire.

It’s a playbook that deals with escalation by suspect and how/when tactics should change. It sounded like hundreds or thousands of rounds were expended in the standoff, and with that much ammo being expended, the chances someone would get injured, killed increased. Firing in the smoke and then CS canisters seemed appropriate.

264 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:58:14pm

re: #252 Feline Fearless Leader

Cheesy perhaps, but documented to have been done at least twice. During the Lincoln County War in 1878 during a 5-day “siege” of a house that had William Bonney (aka Billy the Kid) in it. Also to a hotel in Australia by the police while dealing with the Ned Kelly gang. Again, after a prolonged exchange of gunfire.

Yeah, that’s about all I could think of too. Unless someone can think of a more recent example it looks like 100 years since fire has been used as a tool for law enforcement.

265 Bubblehead II  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:58:16pm

re: #231 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Except there’s no reason not to use that. As the article says, its often used to drive barricaded subjects out. Clearly, a risk of fire when using it is already accepted as common practice in these circumstances.

Agreed, but like I said. When you couple the use of an incendiary device known to start fires with the scanner traffic, it looks like (to me and perhaps others) that they were not only expecting the cabin to catch on fire, but intended for that to happen.

266 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:58:30pm

re: #257 erik_t

They’re ‘burners’ in the vernacular because they make things burn and burning stuff is kinda cool, but they were thrown because they are more chemically potent.

From Charles link

This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen.

In other words,, “I feel as if my lungs are burning”

267 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:58:31pm

re: #243 Dr Lizardo

Personally, I’m quite sure there was no intention of taking Dorner alive.

I think you’re almost certainly wrong. Some cops probably had the intention to immediately shoot upon sight— which isn’t something I even think is a bad decision in this case— but I know plenty of cops who, in that circumstance, or the serial killer, would love to make the bust, to have it be clean.

Cops aren’t going to be of one mind about anything. Except possibly wishing handguns were banned.

268 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:59:07pm

re: #240 Charles Johnson

Was it not tear gas that burned the SLA house down? Look at those things in riot footage. They burn at 1000C. That is roughly the melting point of copper or gold. good luck not starting a fire with that in a carpeted or wood floor wood cabin.

269 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:59:07pm

re: #260 stabby

Point.
I see none.

270 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:59:23pm

re: #260 stabby

Is there any other thing where you believe side A but you’re going to pedantically argue not-A on technicalities?

I’m not doing that, though. I’m arguing that a minimum wage hike would be a good thing, that’d it’d affect some competitors differently and that that’s actually a good thing in some cases.

So, I’m arguing A. I’m just saying that one element that was used in support of A is wrong.

271 sizzzzlerz  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:59:34pm

So the GOP wants all these moochers to go out and find jobs. When a job is found, it’s minimum wage which is insufficient to support one person let alone a family. Hence, food stamps are required so the person doesn’t starve. This pisses off the GOPer who is upset with the moochers.

And so on…

And so on…

And so on…

Meanwhile, jobs continue to be shipped overseas with the blessing of the GOP.

272 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:59:48pm

re: #270 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’m not doing that, though. I’m arguing that a minimum wage hike would be a good thing, that’d it’d affect some competitors differently and that that’s actually a good thing in some cases.

So, I’m arguing A. I’m just saying that one element that was used in support of A is wrong.

You have the patience of a saint.

273 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:00:00pm

re: #262 erik_t

Smoke grenades, too, are “incendiary” in a sense. They generate their smoke by combustion, because storing the reagents as solids is much more volumetrically efficient than storing gas. Because gas is low-density. Duh.

It’s a tricky phrasing challenge, because in traditional use incendiary devices are designed explicitly to cause things to burn. It is not a side effect.

A stove is also incendiary. A furcase too. OMG! I’m living in a death trap!

274 Lidane  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:00:04pm
275 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:00:32pm

re: #273 Killgore Trout

A stove is also incendiary. A furcase too. OMG! I’m living in a death trap!

surrounded by frogs!

276 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:00:54pm

re: #258 Sol Berdinowitz

I suspect Dorner was aware of that and had no intention of letting anone take him alive.

Same here. When I read Dorner’s manifesto, I got the same feeling. He was going to “cross the line”, and he knew how it would end.

277 funky chicken  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:01:26pm

re: #7 stabby

Min wage jobs in the US are service jobs like fast food that DO NOT compete with the third world and where the cost of labor is not most of the cost, so no one is going out of business for raising the cost of a hamburger 25 cents. Are you going to buy hamburgers from China? No, you won’t even notice the difference when they raise the price.

Also, on a similar note, the CEO of Whole Foods needs to be replaced for whining that his company can’t afford health care because it would make them raise costs:
1) they’ve never competed on price and never will. Shopping at Whole Foods costs 4 times what the cheapest markets do already.

2) their customers are liberal yuppies who buy fair trade, environmentally sustainable, organic coffee and would be overjoyed to know that they’re paying a little extra to make sure that the employees where they buy food have health care.

The fucker needs to be fired.

Whole Foods has excellent benefits.

278 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:01:28pm

lol

279 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:02:48pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

lol

for no reason?
the gas is getting to you, huh??

280 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:02:58pm

re: #270 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

So, I’m arguing A. I’m just saying that one element that was used in support of A is wrong.

Then you’re wrong.
The thing you argued against was more true than its opposite. Because minimum wage hike effects all businesses that pay it, and tends to effect competitors it’s more like a raise in the cost of a common commodity, the increase can be passed on without, for the most part, making a business lose advantage to it’s competitors.

You know that, I know that. You just like to be pedantic and say “not technically right” Meh, why do I talk to you at all?

281 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:03:23pm

re: #266 sattv4u2


They’re ‘burners’ in the vernacular because they make things burn and burning stuff is kinda cool, but they were thrown because they are more chemically potent.

From Charles link

This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen.

In other words,, “I feel as if my lungs are burning”

And we have a winner.

282 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:03:41pm

re: #279 sattv4u2

for no reason?
the gas is getting to you, huh??

I got incendiary madness!

283 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:04:07pm

re: #277 funky chicken

The CEO said that he was going to turn people to part time to avoid giving them health insurance.

Then the predictable shitstorm hit, and he’s whining like a creep.

284 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:04:14pm

re: #281 b_sharp

And we have a winner.

Thank you

I want to thank all the little people that made this possible

285 geoffm33  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:05:26pm

re: #211 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Makes sense. I suppose I was just rationalizing the original statement. Really only works in a vacuum :)

286 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:05:42pm

If it’s well-known that a tear gas canister can start a fire, and it’s called “burner” for that reason, it seems to be silly hair-splitting to argue that the police didn’t deliberately set the cabin on fire. They knew that there was a very good chance the CS canisters would start a fire, and they deliberately used them.

Again, I don’t really have a problem with this, but trying to deny it was done deliberately seems kind of pointless.

287 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:06:44pm

re: #282 Killgore Trout

I got incendiary madness!

we’ll just call you Tony Manero

288 erik_t  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:06:46pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

If it’s well-known that a tear gas canister can start a fire, and it’s called “burner” for that reason, it seems to be silly hair-splitting to argue that the police didn’t deliberately set the cabin on fire. They knew that there was a very good chance the CS canisters would start a fire, and they deliberately used them.

Again, I don’t really have a problem with this, but trying to deny this was done deliberately seems kind of pointless.

This would imply that every time the police escalated to the more potent (CS) tear gas, that resulting fires can be considered deliberate. I do not agree that this is ‘silly hair-splitting’.

289 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:07:10pm

re: #280 stabby

Then you’re wrong.
The thing you argued against was more true than it’s opposite. Because minimum wage hike effects all businesses that pay it, and tends to effect competitors it’s more like a raise in the cost of a common commodity, the increase can be passed on without, for the most part, making a business lose advantage to it’s competitors.

No, I’m sorry, but the level of staffing between competitors can very very widely.

I’m not sure why you think that it’s a good thing for something to have no effect on competitiveness, either. If we raised, say, environmental standards, that’d hit some companies harder than others— the ones that were right on the previous line, companies that exceeded standards wouldn’t have to change— and that’d be a good thing.

I’m sorry, but at this point it seems like you just either haven’t read my posts. There is competitive difference in a raise in the minimum wage, because some employers use minimum wage workers for jobs that other companies use above-minimum wage workers, and because companies can vary widely in their staffing levels-per-customer. I don’t know how else to explain it.

290 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:07:35pm

re: #288 erik_t

agreed

291 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:08:10pm

re: #270 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’m not doing that, though…..

Yes, you ARE because you think you’re SO SMART and the rest of us are stupid. You’re soooo obnoxious. Thank heavens no one else around here *cough* acts like a pompous know-it-all. //

292 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:08:35pm

re: #289 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Businesses with very different models of how many employees to customers aren’t competitors. They’re not doing the same thing.

293 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:08:55pm

re: #285 geoffm33

Makes sense. I suppose I was just rationalizing the original statement. Really only works in a vacuum :)

You were totally right that all things being equal, it’s true, but all things aren’t equal. But the important part is that actual observation has shown we don’t lose jobs by raising it, except possibly in huge jumps, so there’s really not even a single real goddamn argument against raising the minimum wage.

I think we should raise it until, eventually, we do see job loss from it. That seems like a rational way to peg it, but I doubt empirical economics is sellable politically. “We’ll dicker around with it until we nail it down.”

294 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:09:15pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

If it’s well-known that a tear gas canister can start a fire, and it’s called “burner” for that reason, it seems to be silly hair-splitting to argue that the police didn’t deliberately set the cabin on fire. They knew that there was a very good chance the CS canisters would start a fire, and they deliberately used them.

Again, I don’t really have a problem with this, but trying to deny it was done deliberately seems kind of pointless.

I don’t think it is called a burner because it starts fires. I think it’s called a burner because it causes a burning sensation in the eyes and lungs.

Giving an object a name because of its most common use or effect is more likely than giving an object an name because of what it can potentially do.

295 BeenHereAwhile  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:09:16pm

re: #96 Kragar (Antichrist )

bockauote>“I’ve heard this predictable flowery feel-good speech of denial before,” Nugent said at one of his many stops in front of the TV cameras.

“It’s a scam, and I think it’s epitomized by his dishonesty in the overt attempt to infringe on our Second Amendment rights” to bear arms.

Nugent was eventually introduced to a reporter from the Voice of America.

The rocker grinned and interrupted: “I’m sorry, I’m the f—ing voice of America!” he boomed.

Ted Nugent’s day job:

Nugent appears at 25 seconds in.

296 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:11:29pm

re: #292 stabby

Businesses with very different models of how many employees to customers aren’t competitors. They’re not doing the same thing.

Yes, they are. Starbucks competes with McDonalds. They are competitors. Someone can choose to go and get their coffee and sweet thing at one place or the other. If you want to parse it down so you’re only comparing absolute like to like, there are still ‘fast food’ joints that are competitors of MacDonalds that have pay scales significantly higher than MacDonalds.

297 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:11:44pm

re: #286 Charles Johnson

If it’s well-known that a tear gas canister can start a fire, and it’s called “burner” for that reason, it seems to be silly hair-splitting to argue that the police didn’t deliberately set the cabin on fire. They knew that there was a very good chance the CS canisters would start a fire, and they deliberately used them.

Again, I don’t really have a problem with this, but trying to deny this was done deliberately seems kind of pointless.

The Waco truthers have been using the same logic for a very long time
FBI admits use of incendiary grenades at Waco

The source of the reports on the use of pyrotechnic grenades was the Public Safety Commission Chairman James B. Francis. “There are written reports by Rangers,” Francis told the press, “there is photographic evidence, there is physical evidence, all three of which are problematic” for the federal government’s claim that no grenades were used. A former senior FBI official, Danny Coulson, confirmed to the Dallas Morning News that he had recently learned that two military-type M-651 CS tear gas grenades had been fired on the day of the massacre.

298 Jolo5309  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:11:45pm

re: #224 stabby

Why are you bothering to lecture us on marginal effects that don’t put people or companies out of business? You think you’re the only person here who is aware that there are unimportant, second approximation effects? Why assume that? Because everyone is an idiot but you?

This may not be germane to your segment of the conversation, but I assume everyone is an idiot but me, and some days I am not too sure of me…

299 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:12:22pm

re: #289 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

No, I’m sorry, but the level of staffing between competitors can very very widely.

I’m not sure why you think that it’s a good thing for something to have no effect on competitiveness, either. If we raised, say, environmental standards, that’d hit some companies harder than others— the ones that were right on the previous line, companies that exceeded standards wouldn’t have to change— and that’d be a good thing.

I’m sorry, but at this point it seems like you just either haven’t read my posts. There is competitive difference in a raise in the minimum wage, because some employers use minimum wage workers for jobs that other companies use above-minimum wage workers, and because companies can vary widely in their staffing levels-per-customer. I don’t know how else to explain it.

The original comment was about the statistical use of aggregates where a bunch of small samples can be treated as a large averaged sample. Of course this ignores the individual differences, but it’s used to come to a general conclusion about a population.

300 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:13:09pm

re: #291 CuriousLurker

Yes, you ARE because you think you’re SO SMART and the rest of us are stupid. You’re soooo obnoxious. Thank heavens no one else around here *cough* acts like a pompous know-it-all. //

Don’t you be making fun of my hero Homer.

301 schnapp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:14:04pm

re: #32 Charles Johnson

The fact is that every study of the effect of raising minimum wage on job creation has found no detectable employment losses. Again, we see the Republican Party pushing phony talking points based on lies.

That’s blatantly not true. The fact is the effect is ambiguous. That’s why surveys of economists show a near 50/50 split between those for and against a minimum wage.

302 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:14:05pm

re: #293 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

You were totally right that all things being equal, it’s true, but all things aren’t equal. But the important part is that actual observation has shown we don’t lose jobs by raising it, except possibly in huge jumps, so there’s really not even a single real goddamn argument against raising the minimum wage.

I think we should raise it until, eventually, we do see job loss from it. That seems like a rational way to peg it, but I doubt empirical economics is sellable politically. “We’ll dicker around with it until we nail it down.”

That sounds downright evolutionary.

303 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:15:44pm

In my attempt to create analogies:

GOP thinks those who need welfare are lazy and need to get a job.

Ok, would they have said that during the depression?

Spouting ideological memes without factoring in reality seems to be the Party Line.

304 simoom  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:15:54pm


“So real”… I’m invoking Poe’s Law on this one :P.

305 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:16:21pm

re: #302 b_sharp

That sounds downright evolutionary.

Heh. All our laws need to be evolutionary, especially economic regulations. Because businesses and markets constantly evolve. People see the laws as part of the fitness landscape— they’re not, it’s much more like the relationship between a mother and a fetus.

306 dragonath  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:16:39pm

I see my bank just started charging new fees for checking accounts. Funny for all the talk about “minimum wage”, someone’s maximum wage is hurting the economy.

307 stabby  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:19:33pm

re: #291 CuriousLurker

Yes, you ARE because you think you’re SO SMART and the rest of us are stupid. You’re soooo obnoxious. Thank heavens no one else around here *cough* acts like a pompous know-it-all. //

I googled “thuper genius” and came up with an absolutely NSFW picture of a naked guy with a Wile E Coyote tattoo (holding up the “HELP” sign with one red eye as as if a second train was approaching)

I don’t think I can link here… his penis was part of the tattoo…

308 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:23:25pm

re: #299 b_sharp

The original comment was about the statistical use of aggregates where a bunch of small samples can be treated as a large averaged sample. Of course this ignores the individual differences, but it’s used to come to a general conclusion about a population.

No, because the premise is that it’ll affect all the competitors equally. What he did show was that, among competitors who this affects equally, a price raise that was transferred onto the customers would be low and would cover it. However, there would be competitors who benefit— those with lower staff, or who were already paying higher staff costs.

309 chadu  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:30:58pm

re: #232 Sol Berdinowitz

If Dorner burned alive, it is most likely because he refused to come out, not because the police set the house on fire.

Didn’t we hear something about (alleged) Dorner trying to escape out the backdoor sometime during this timeline, and he was “driven back” (presumably by gunfire)?

Adds credence that he probably wasn’t going to be taken alive.

310 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:32:09pm

re: #309 chadu

A vague, confused report of something that may or may not have happened doesn’t lend a lot of credence to anything.

311 chadu  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:33:22pm

re: #256 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Ah, scooped.

312 chadu  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:37:38pm

re: #310 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Point.

313 Interesting Times  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:42:51pm

re: #301 schnapp

That’s blatantly not true. The fact is the effect is ambiguous. That’s why surveys of economists show a near 50/50 split between those for and against a minimum wage.

[citation needed]

314 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:42:55pm

re: #309 chadu

Didn’t we hear something about (alleged) Dorner trying to escape out the backdoor sometime during this timeline, and he was “driven back” (presumably by gunfire)?

Adds credence that he probably wasn’t going to be taken alive.

Unfortunately mind-reading is one of the more arcane sciences.

315 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:55:31pm

re: #190 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

How does this higher cost affect all competitors equally, please?

I said basically the same, got that? If you want to deny the view that companies that employ a meaningful percent of minimum wage worker typically compete against similarly structured competitors, fine. But I’m very confident I was correct.

Sure, there is always some variance within a market, and the companies that utilize a meaningfully higher % of

316 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:56:11pm

re: #301 schnapp

That’s blatantly not true. The fact is the effect is ambiguous. That’s why surveys of economists show a near 50/50 split between those for and against a minimum wage.

I’d say a large part of that reason from the untestable cohort— the Chicago school, Von Mises types— is done in opposition to the actual empirical results, since they deny the importance of empirical results.

Increasing the minimum wage would also increase the velocity of money, and even those dudes admit that’s a good thing.

317 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 2:01:00pm

re: #315 Jocko’s Rocket Ship

I said basically the same, got that? If you want to deny the view that companies that employ a meaningful percent of minimum wage worker typically compete against similarly structured competitors, fine. But I’m very confident I was correct.

I’m sorry, I do think that you were very overbroad. Starbucks is a competitor for MacDonalds, for example, which has a much higher percentage of minimum wage jobs and a higher number of staff per customer. There are large variations in number of staff and pay even if you just compare fast food, like in-and-out burgers.

You’ll notice I agreed with your overall point— raising the minimum wage isn’t going to significantly impact prices nor will it cause companies to shed jobs.

318 EPR-radar  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 2:05:12pm

re: #317 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Isn’t it simpler to say that of the companies that will be forced to change their policies by raising the minimum wage, it is difficult to see how the wage increase can affect the relative competitiveness of these companies?

Interpreting “raising minimum wage has little/no effect on competitiveness” by bringing in non-minimum wage outfits as a comparison point seems a bit bizarre.

319 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 2:08:16pm

re: #318 EPR-radar

Isn’t it simpler to say that of the companies that will be forced to change their policies by raising the minimum wage, it is difficult to see how the wage increase can affect the relative competitiveness of these companies?

No, because they could still vary highly in staffing levels, which would have an effect on their relative competitiveness.

Interpreting “raising minimum wage has little/no effect on competitiveness” by bringing in non-minimum wage outfits as a comparison point seems a bit bizarre.

Then you haven’t understood me.

Company A and Company B may be competitors— selling a similar product to a similar clientele, like MacDonalds and In-and-Out, which have significant overlap, or Starbucks and Dunkin-Donuts, etc— while having very different levels of staffing and pay.

320 aug3  Wed, Feb 13, 2013 3:57:03pm

raising the MW won’t effect small businesses at all, they all went out of business last time we raised it!

321 Robur  Thu, Feb 14, 2013 9:06:51am

re: #11 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

The bells are getting louder!..

322 Robur  Thu, Feb 14, 2013 9:08:29am

re: #24 nines09

I hear they are sponsoring a bill to ban Di-hydro oxide


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