Highly Recommended: Michele Catalano: The March to War and Back

Hard lessons
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Michele Catalano used to have a blog named “A Small Victory,” always one of my favorites back in the early days of LGF because of her excellent writing, and she’s done a terrific piece for medium.com on the “warbloggers” and her personal awakening that the Bush administration’s rationale for the Iraq War was based on deception: The March to War and Back.

I won’t quote, just go ye and read the whole thing.

(Note: I agree and identify with every word of Michele’s piece. Before the 9/11 attacks, like Michele, I was very much a liberal. And I now greatly regret letting my grief and emotions after 9/11 blind me to a lesson I had already learned: that right wing administrations can and will capitalize on anger and fear to advance their agenda. That’s a mistake I’ll never make again.)

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527 comments

1 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:06:05pm

I always thought the Al-Qaeda connection claims were complete bullshit, but I swallowed the WMD argument hook, line and sinker. For some reason, it did not occur to me that bullshit claims tend to travel in packs.

Never figured the administration, or any government, would take such disastrous action based on such flimsy evidence. Is every generation doomed to learn this lesson for itself?

2 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:08:34pm

For my part, I was never a true believer in the Iraq war. It was clear to me at the time that the administration was saying whatever was needed to get enough political cover for the war.

My episode of 9/11 madness was that I bought into the arguments for justifying torture.

3 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:09:41pm

a mistake I’ll never make again

for myself, i’ve lost count of these

4 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:09:51pm

re: #1 erik_t

I always thought the Al-Qaeda connection claims were complete bullshit, but I swallowed the WMD argument hook, line and sinker. For some reason, it did not occur to me that bullshit claims tend to travel in packs.

Never figured the administration, or any government, would take such disastrous action based on such flimsy evidence. Is every generation doomed to learn this lesson for itself?

After 9/11, and the following anthrax attacks, the idea that Iraq had WMDs was a pretty easy sell. That was also the biggest reason I supported the war - that vision of the 9/11 attacks multiplied by a thousand, if a nuclear bomb were used.

I was also greatly influenced by the book “The Threatening Storm” by Kenneth Pollack - probably more by that than anything a Bush admin official ever said. Pollack made a very persuasive case in that book.

And it was all fucking bullshit.

5 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:11:22pm
6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:11:58pm

re: #3 engineer cat

a mistake I’ll never make again

for myself, i’ve lost count of these

Yeah, there are others in that vein, too.

7 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:12:54pm

If I had a time machine, I would go back and kick my own ass.

8 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:12:54pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

After 9/11, and the following anthrax attacks, the idea that Iraq had WMDs was a pretty easy sell. That was also the biggest reason I supported the war - that vision of the 9/11 attacks multiplied by a thousand, if a nuclear bomb were used.

The concept was an easy sell. But you don’t go to war on a concept. You go to war on evidence, and it seems pretty clear in retrospect that whatever evidence existed was massaged in a very certain and arguably intentional direction.

9 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:13:24pm

I’m trying to remember what I was thinking about most of this during the time. Other than that “huh?” moment when they brought up Iraq.

10 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:13:34pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

After 9/11, and the following anthrax attacks, the idea that Iraq had WMDs was a pretty easy sell. That was also the biggest reason I supported the war - that vision of the 9/11 attacks multiplied by a thousand, if a nuclear bomb were used.

I was also greatly influenced by the book “The Threatening Storm” by Kenneth Pollack - probably more by that than anything a Bush admin official ever said. Pollack made a very persuasive case in that book.

And it was all fucking bullshit.

In fairness, Saddam Hussein was playing games with the inspectors, and deliberately making it very difficult for outsiders to tell what was really going on.

11 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:13:57pm

My nephew wanted to join the Army soon after 9/11. My sister talked him out of it.

12 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:15:22pm

re: #10 EPR-radar

In fairness, Saddam Hussein was playing games with the inspectors, and deliberately making it very difficult for outsiders to tell what was really going on.

Thing is, in retrospect, he had every reason to do so. Guy’s regime relied in large part on the assumption that he had the power to back up his threats. Thumbing his nose at the international community and stymieing inspectors was a large part of that.

13 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:15:24pm

Then there was watching the news programs with the non-stop talk of chemical weapons attacks on US soldiers. The chemical and biological gear being shown and discussed. Talk of up to 30,000 US casualties. “It’ll be over in two weeks…”

14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:16:22pm

I, too, was a supporter of the Iraq invasion at first. Of course I was also watching Faux News at the time since they seemed to have the best war coverage (aka war porn). It was only after no WMD’s were found and I started getting news elsewhere that I realized just how much they conned us all.

15 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:16:27pm

re: #1 erik_t

I always thought the Al-Qaeda connection claims were complete bullshit, but I swallowed the WMD argument hook, line and sinker. For some reason, it did not occur to me that bullshit claims tend to travel in packs.

Never figured the administration, or any government, would take such disastrous action based on such flimsy evidence. Is every generation doomed to learn this lesson for itself?

I was too aware of history to fall for it. Governments that want a war or confrontation will get it, often manufacturing an incident to do so. Following with this is that governments, or more correctly their leaders, are set on a course of action and will self-select data that supports the desired conclusion. And well-trained top-down bureaucracies will filter to fit those conclusions since those that agree with the leaders get the promotions and plum assignments while those who bring up objections get pushed aside and/or punished. And I have no belief in American Exceptionalism or some divine grace preventing our leaders from falling into these traps or getting deluded about how the world is going to react to their actions.

16 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:17:01pm

re: #12 Targetpractice

Thing is, in retrospect, he had every reason to do so. Guy’s regime relied in large part on the assumption that he had the power to back up his threats. Thumbing his nose at the international community and stymieing inspectors was a large part of that.

Pretty much like the North Korean regime both then and now, with some differences in the details

17 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:17:40pm

re: #12 Targetpractice

He also had to do what he did to keep Iran at bay. They were still at odds and if Saddam had showed weakness (ie not having the WMD’s) then it wouldn’t have been hard for the Iranians to back the Shia in the South and pick up where the Iran/Iraq war ended.

18 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:18:11pm

Wolf Blitzer and Chris Matthews were pretty excited about the whole thing.

19 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:18:32pm

After you read The March To War And Back, be sure to read the Saddam interviews. Even more misconceptions will fall from your mind.
Paged

20 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:18:46pm

re: #13 Gus

Then there was watching the news programs propaganda with the non-stop talk of chemical weapons attacks on US soldiers. The chemical and biological gear being shown and discussed. Talk of up to 30,000 US casualties. “It’ll be over in two weeks…”

FTFY

21 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:19:53pm

re: #12 Targetpractice

Thing is, in retrospect, he had every reason to do so. Guy’s regime relied in large part on the assumption that he had the power to back up his threats. Thumbing his nose at the international community and stymieing inspectors was a large part of that.

And playing up nationalism and “us against the world” is part of the dictator’s playbook. Combined with needing to show that you are still in charge and beyond control of outside forces. So you avoid, delay, and sabre rattle — essentially bluffing since taking you out is more than most countries (or the international community) would be willing to *rationally* pay.

North Korea seems to be better at this game than Saddam was.

22 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:20:27pm

That Bush could pull off the invasion of Iraq after America’s experience with the war in Vietnam was only possible because of the shock of 9/11/01. I think. Who knows what it will be next time.

23 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:21:22pm

re: #21 Feline Fearless Leader

And playing up nationalism and “us against the world” is part of the dictator’s playbook. Combined with needing to show that you are still in charge and beyond control of outside forces. So you avoid, delay, and sabre rattle — essentially bluffing since taking you out is more than most countries (or the international community) would be willing to *rationally* pay.

North Korea seems to be better at this game than Saddam was.

Saddam would probably still be in power if he hadn’t invaded Kuwait and gotten his wings clipped under Bush I.

24 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:21:55pm

re: #22 wrenchwench

That Bush could pull off the invasion of Iraq after America’s experience with the war in Vietnam was only possible because of the shock of 9/11/01. I think. Who knows what it will be next time.

We can already see that. They’ve been trying to gear up for a war with Iran for years now. Bill Kristol has an editorial out today, arguing that Republicans need to get Americans over war-weariness and supportive of the next war-of-choice.

25 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:23:59pm

I notice Michele also got the

TRAITORRR!!!1!

treatment.

26 Local Media Monitor  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:24:50pm
It’s 2013 and those two years of warmongering still haunt me.

Good for her.

27 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:24:51pm

re: #25 wrenchwench

I notice Michele also got the

treatment.

Not from me.

28 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:26:02pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Not from me.

On my blog I wrote about my growing sense of hopelessness and my warblogger friends responded with much of the vitriol and rage that they, we, had become known for. I was deserting them. I was a traitor. I had no idea what I was talking about. They sent me links, lectured me on why Iraq would turn out okay, why the spread of democracy will come about, why Syria and Iran and North Korea would all fall eventually.

I think you were busy getting it yourself.

29 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:26:30pm

ThinkProgress has a timeline of the major events, from the official start of the war til the official end. And reading through it is just stomach-churning.

A TIMELINE OF THE IRAQ WAR

APRIL 23, 2003: USAID Administrator Andrew Nastios Claims Rebuilding of Iraq Could Be Accomplished With $1.7 Billion

TED KOPPEL: I mean, when you talk about 1.7, you’re not suggesting that the rebuilding of Iraq is gonna be done for $1.7 billion?

NATSIOS: Well, in terms of the American taxpayers contribution, I do, this is it for the US.
[…]
KOPPEL: You’re saying the, the top cost for the US taxpayer will be $1.7 billion. No more than that?

NATSIOS: For the reconstruction. And then there’s 700 million in the supplemental budget for humanitarian relief, which we don’t competitively bid ’cause it’s charities that get that money.

KOPPEL: I understand. But as far as reconstruction goes, the American taxpayer will not be hit for more than $1.7 billion no matter how long the process takes?

NATSIOS: That is our plan and that is our intention. And these figures, outlandish figures I’ve seen, I have to say, there’s a little bit of hoopla involved in this. [ABC, Nightline, 4/23/03]

30 Batman  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:26:47pm

I was a college kid at the time, so I can’t claim any sort of rational or intellectual superiority, but I always believed it was a lie to go to war. Now I’m old enough to feel not the slightest bit of schadenfreude over it.

31 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:26:53pm

re: #23 EPR-radar

Saddam would probably still be in power if he hadn’t invaded Kuwait and gotten his wings clipped under Bush I.

Saddam would still be our ally if he had not invaded Kuwait, after all he was good enough of an ally that we happily gave him the WMD’s he had to begin with.

32 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:27:05pm

re: #26 Local Media Monitor

Good for her.

You feel it’s better because she still suffers? You have a vengeful streak a mile wide.

33 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:28:51pm

i supported the afghan war, especially since in the 2002 phase we merely put our thumb on the scale to support anti-fanatic afghan forces. it seemed to me like an appropriate response to 9/11

i can’t say i was ever a supporter of invading iraq. it was ridiculous to propose that a third world country that size presented a clear and present danger to the security of the united states, and they hadn’t attacked us

i did expect them to find large stocks of chemical weapons. after all, we sold them to them

the entire exercise merely confirms to me that if you do something really stupid and unnecessary in an unbelievably incompetent way, it ain’t a-gonna come out too good, jack

but i really did not require proof for this proposition

34 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:29:03pm

I think what frustrates me is that there are so many insidious human rights violations carried out by tyrants —and the international community is powerless to do anything about it.

The lesson from Vietnam was that we shouldn’t go in without having an interest of our own.

so, it takes security interests, financial interests and political will to do anything about the monsters.

We had all of that for Iraq and got rid of some big monsters. Children are better off, no more mass graves, torture chambers etc.

And we still fucked-it up.

I can’t regret the war because of the reasons I stated above, I am just very frustrated we as a Planet of Humans couldn’t, didn’t and can’t seem to find a better way.

35 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:29:08pm
There were many others like me. People who had liberal ideals. People who were anti-war. We all watched and listened and read. We looked to our leader like a cult figure as if he would somehow lead us to salvation in the form of peace of mind by ensuring we would never experience this again.

That’s what we wanted to hear. That’s the fight we wanted to join. We looked for others who would join our fight – even if that fight was only waged from our couches and chairs – and we found them. We gathered; we formed what felt like a clique, but was more like a cult.

We were the warbloggers.

We might as well have been wearing war paint while we sat at our computers typing out our feelings of rage and anger. Oh, we were an angry bunch. We were full of vitriol. Worse, we were righteous.

In the days leading up to the war, our thunderous cries of righteousness could be heard across the Internet. We waved flags, cloaked ourselves in patriotism that was nothing more than nationalism, fed off each other’s emotions and charged into war with nothing more than our words and need for vengeance.

36 Bear  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:29:19pm

I fear it will either be Iran or N. Korea next time.

37 Lidane  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:30:11pm

I can honestly say I always thought the case for the Iraq war was total bullshit. I never believed any of what the Bush administration was selling.

It gives me no pleasure at all to have been right.

38 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:30:21pm

re: #36 Bear

I fear it will either be Iran or N. Korea next time.

yep.

Thankfully, I don’t think there is the political will and won’t be for a long time.

39 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:31:11pm

re: #38 FemNaziBitch

Thankfully, I don’t think there is the political will and won’t be for a long time.

I don’t think either of those regimes will survive as they currently exist for long enough for the US to build up that level of support for a major invasion.

40 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:31:28pm

APRIL 28, 2004: Images of torture at Abu Ghraib are revealed

41 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:32:39pm

One of the reasons I believed Kenneth Pollack’s book was because he was not a shill for the Bush administration - he was on the National Security Council under Bill Clinton, and was not a stereotypical right winger at all.

42 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:33:37pm

Me, I admit I had mixed feelings back then. On the one hand I wanted to believe we weren’t being lied to. dammit, I’m a veteran, and I know - knew - some of the people putting out some of the info.

On the other hand, I’m a librarian, and I was seeing what was happening in a very different location - and it convinced me we were being lied to.

See, the USAPATRIOT ACT passed in October of 2001. And at that point the government could legally go into a library, get everybody’s records, and then slap a gag order on the fact it happened.

And I knew a library to which it was happening - indirectly, because suddenly some people went from complaining to dead silent on the subject. And Ashcroft got up and told us “we’re not doing this to libraries.”

You know the standard public nightmare of the RWNJ? The one about secret government actions, doing things under cover and dark of night, and nobody really knows? It happened — except it was an RW government doing it, and they didn’t take it as far as it could have gone. But that’s one reason I don’t go wholesale in calling them nutjobs - because the USAPATRIOT ACT. and Japanese Internment. And a host of other things that happened because, well,

Because the bulk of this nation got scared and lashed out in a desperate attempt to protect themselves from this surprising, bloody, vicious attack out of nowhere.

When I go back through my blogging history, I see I didn’t start till we were actually in the war. And I stayed out of that actual issue because, well, because I still didn’t know who was right or wrong. But I ranted about how we were butchering the Geneva conventions, and how the USAPATRIOT act needed massive curtailment, and a whole bunch of other DFH stances. I’m ashamed I didn’t go all the way in my objections, but I really thought - hoped - that even with Bush and Chaney (neither of whom i trusted) I could trust the bureaucracy. Because that’s the purpose of bureaucracy, really - to slow the wild swings and idiots, to keep the leaders straight. It comes at a cost of slowed action, but … I used to think it works. which it does, mostly, eventually. Except when even the bureaucracy’s members are scared.

43 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:33:41pm

re: #38 FemNaziBitch

yep.

Thankfully, I don’t think there is the political will and won’t be for a long time.

I think this holds only as long as there is no major international terrorism incident in the US.

44 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:34:18pm

re: #11 Gus

My nephew wanted to join the Army soon after 9/11. My sister talked him out of it.

So did I.
I couldn’t because of the migraines and associated meds.

45 palomino  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:34:25pm

re: #18 Gus

Wolf Blitzer and Chris Matthews were pretty excited about the whole thing.

Most of the MSM fell in line with hardly a peep. They’re somewhat spineless to begin with, and the fear of being labeled unpatriotic post 9/11 was far too much for them to stand up to. Courage!

46 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:35:03pm

re: #34 FemNaziBitch

The lesson from Vietnam was that we shouldn’t go in without having an interest of our own.

There are many more lessons than just that one. Using body counts as a metric of success was unfathomably awful, and we still don’t know the truth of how awful. Think My Lai every day.

47 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:35:50pm

re: #45 palomino

Most of the MSM fell in line with hardly a peep. They’re somewhat spineless to begin with, and the fear of being labeled unpatriotic post 9/11 was far too much for them to stand up to. Courage!

So were too damn many Democratic legislators.

48 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:35:59pm

Here are some wonderfully done images by various photojournalists that covered the Iraq War that Time put together recently, as well as each photojournalists’ take on each image. A few of them almost made me cry last night while looking at them as I was ashamed of myself for supporting this travesty way back then. I’ve learned from my mistake, and God damn you President Bush, you fucking bastard.

lightbox.time.com

49 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:36:12pm

the smoking gun may come in the form of a mushroom cloud

and as a former literature major, i refuse to support any major international policy initiative based on a mixed metaphor

50 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:37:26pm

Man…just listened to about 25 minutes of Widespread Panic on Jam_On …Disco>Tall Boy>Love Tractor…I forget how much fun they are to listen to live.

51 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:37:31pm

re: #49 engineer cat

the smoking gun may come in the form of a mushroom cloud

and as a former literature major, i refuse to support any major international policy initiative based on a mixed metaphor

We’ll be greeted as liberators.

52 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:37:55pm

re: #50 darthstar

Man…just listened to about 25 minutes of Widespread Panic on Jam_On …Disco>Tall Boy>Love Tractor…I forget how much fun they are to listen to live.

I saw them once in Houston. Awesome gig that was.

53 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:38:06pm

re: #49 engineer cat

the smoking gun may come in the form of a mushroom cloud

and as a former literature major, i refuse to support any major international policy initiative based on a mixed metaphor

54 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:38:19pm

re: #43 EPR-radar

I think this holds only as long as there is no major international terrorism incident in the US.

I still don’t think it would be enough of an impetus.

could be wrong.

55 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:39:04pm

re: #54 FemNaziBitch

I still don’t think it would be enough of an impetus.

could be wrong.

I very much hope that you are right and I am wrong on this point.

56 Destro  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:39:06pm

I have been against American interventionism be it in the guise of humanitarian wars or to stop WMD from the start. In fact Blair tried to sell the Iraq war as a humanitarian war and his arguments swayed leftists in America.

To this day no one is willing to ask why this war was fought.

I think it was a collection of special interests groups from oil to military contractors and every other scallywag lobbyist in between.

People wonder why Dick Cheney who was against going to Baghdad the first time wanted to go so bad into Iraq the second time? I think it was because when he left DC he went to Halliburton/Brown & Root the money there was AMAZING! Sure Dick had money before but not like private sector executive compensation money so I thing that changed him.

Remember, Dick Cheney before he was VP stated he thought cheap oil was bad for the world. So here was a guy upset at cheap oil before Bush came to office and left with sky high oil prices. So maybe that is why Iraq happened?

I know I am going to be challenged on this so I will post and look for the Dick Cheney quote online.

Found it:

Let us rid ourselves of the fiction that low oil prices are somehow good for the United States.

money.cnn.com

So maybe the Iraq invasion was to get oil prices to rise rather than the common belief Cheney wanted cheap Iraqi oil?

57 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:39:16pm

“Mr. President, it’s a slam dunk!”

Uh huh.

58 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:39:25pm

re: #51 Kid A

We’ll be greeted as liberators.

“Prosecutors Will Be Violated!”

59 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:39:25pm

re: #51 Kid A

We’ll be greeted as liberators.

We were dangled like modifiers.

60 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:40:04pm

re: #59 darthstar

We were dangled like modifiers.

participles

61 makeitstop  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:40:08pm

I never bought a bit of what we were being sold, and it made me damned angry to watch just about everyone I knew fall hard for it.

I’ve told this story before. I went to the State Of The Union address in ‘03, where Bush got all scary about Iraq. After it was over, we walked out of the Capitol and there were concrete barriers everywhere, armed servicemen literally every 50 feet, and military choppers hovering all over DC, spotlights sweeping the ground. I looked around and thought that it looked more like a prison camp than the nation’s capitol.

And now that I think about it, that was probably just another part of the sales push. Bush delivers a speech designed to scare Americans, and those who walked out of the Capitol after that speech were given a double scare. I wouldn’t doubt that the scene influenced quite a few Congresspeople.

Snow job.

62 Bear  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:40:33pm

re: #54 FemNaziBitch

What about a N. Korea rocket at some part of the US?

63 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:40:44pm

re: #58 engineer cat

“Prosecutors Will Be Violated!”

“Flowers and candy from the civilians!!!”

64 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:41:11pm

re: #61 makeitstop

The color coded terror alerts were a good example of this.

65 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:41:17pm

re: #63 Kid A

“Flowers and candy from the civilians!!!”

Roses will be thrown at us!

66 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:41:20pm

re: #55 EPR-radar

I very much hope that you are right and I am wrong on this point.

I know, I read a headline somewhere today that China is now considered a major arms exporter.

I don’t seem humans evolving anytime soon.

67 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:42:19pm

One person who had it right (and from an unlikely place) was Paul Krugman in the NYT. They hired to talk economics, but his distaste for Bush’s dishonesty caused him to become more of a politics columnist.

68 Local Media Monitor  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:42:24pm

re: #56 Destro

Destro, you are wise

69 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:42:24pm

re: #65 Targetpractice

Roses will be thrown at us!

“The locals won’t view us throwing our flag on Saddam’s statue as ‘occupation’!!!”

70 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:42:25pm

re: #60 FemNaziBitch

participles

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA!!!

71 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:42:34pm

We are a major arms exporter.
The largest, iirc.

72 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:42:59pm

With us or against us!

73 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:43:01pm

re: #71 Varek Raith

We are a major arms exporter.
The largest, iirc.

yup

74 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:43:33pm

re: #72 Kid A

With us or against us!

You go the war with the army the have, not the army you want!

75 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:43:41pm

Here’s that book: The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq: Kenneth M. Pollack

I dug my copy out of the closet and it has an endorsement from Fareed Zakaria.

76 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:44:21pm

re: #71 Varek Raith

We are a major arms exporter.
The largest, iirc.

Here kid, hold this gun. We’re testing some new remote control aircraft stuff and we don’t want any innocent people hurt.

77 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:44:36pm

re: #62 Bear

What about a N. Korea rocket at some part of the US?

What if Santa’s elves stage a bloody coup?

78 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:44:55pm

Quote:

“Iraq is at the top of America’s foreign policy agenda and this book should be at the top of your reading list. Kenneth Pollack approaches the problem of Saddam Hussein without ideological blinkers or prejudices. He provides an clear-eyed account of the breakdown of American policy toward Saddam Hussein and makes a powerful case for a shift in that policy. Whether or not you agree with Pollack’s solution — and I do — you will admire The Threatening Storm. It is intelligent, balanced, and measured; a model of fair-minded analysis on a topic that rarely gets any. Before you make up your mind on Iraq, read this book.”

-Fareed Zakaria, editor of Newsweek International

79 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:45:19pm

re: #64 EPR-radar

Gods but I hated that thing, it was nothing more than a tool to scare people and seemed to always rise during elections.

80 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:45:27pm

re: #62 Bear

North Korea can’t even throw rocks at the US, let alone rockets.

81 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:45:57pm

The tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free!

82 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:46:07pm

I’m sure most of you know where I stand on the Iraq war, but I’ll just say it again: I don’t think it was a mistake. I do think that the Bush administration demonstrated absolutely mind-blowing incompetence in trying to invent reasons to go. I admit I bought the lies at the time, but now I’m second-guessing and open to admitting that I fell for a con job. But I still think, in the end, that it was an overall good idea. The implementation thereof, however, left a lot to be desired. We just didn’t have - and still don’t have - any idea how to properly liberate a country from an oppressive government. I think trying to do so in Iran or N. Korea, especially, would be a grave mistake at this time. But it’s still a good idea.

83 Bear  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:46:23pm

re: #77 goddamnedfrank

Oh now must I fear Santa?
//

84 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:46:45pm
85 Destro  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:46:57pm

re: #68 Local Media Monitor

Destro, you are wise

I found the evidence for the quote:

“Let us rid ourselves of the fiction that low oil prices are somehow good for the United States,” argued Dick Cheney in 1986.

money.cnn.com

We all know happened to oil prices when Dick Cheney was in office. Is this proof that this is what motivated Cheney’s policies as VP? No but it does help answer “cui bono”.

86 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:47:01pm

re: #82 thedopefishlives

So, if we have no clue how to do anything after the war, how was the war a good idea?

87 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:47:18pm

People want a superhero.

A Feline Overlord.

ok, I needed the humour break,

88 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:47:36pm

re: #82 thedopefishlives

“Liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.” -Kenneth Adelman, Feb. 13, 2002.

89 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:47:45pm

SHOCK AND AWE! And Wolf Blitzer jizzing all over the set because he had the best war correspondent name.

90 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:47:48pm

re: #62 Bear

What about a N. Korea rocket at some part of the US?

Using the logic of the Iraq invasion, a missile attack by N Korea would be countered by an attack by Pacific Command on Indonesia.

91 Local Media Monitor  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:48:13pm

re: #41 Charles Johnson

With an inkling of understanding of the Vietnam War and every other war, declared or not, that the US had conducted in the previous several decades, it came as no surprise to me that there would be Democrats/”liberals” supporting the rush to war (pushing the BS reasons for it) by writing books, penning columns, running websites.

92 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:48:14pm

re: #90 Decatur Deb

Using the logic of the Iraq invasion, a missile attack by N Korea would be countered by an attack by Pacific Command on Indonesia.

With drone strikes on the moon.

93 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:48:20pm

re: #62 Bear

What about a N. Korea rocket at some part of the US?

Yeah, that concerns me. They’ve successfully launched a range capable craft. They have (some) working nukes. And they have been making a lot of noise.

Blunt reality - if North Korea launches a successful nuclear attack against the US, we’ll go to war.

On the other hand, unless/until they actually do this, I’m not in favor of military action.

94 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:48:32pm

Have a good evening all!

95 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:48:34pm

re: #82 thedopefishlives

I’m sure most of you know where I stand on the Iraq war, but I’ll just say it again: I don’t think it was a mistake. I do think that the Bush administration demonstrated absolutely mind-blowing incompetence in trying to invent reasons to go. I admit I bought the lies at the time, but now I’m second-guessing and open to admitting that I fell for a con job. But I still think, in the end, that it was an overall good idea. The implementation thereof, however, left a lot to be desired. We just didn’t have - and still don’t have - any idea how to properly liberate a country from an oppressive government. I think trying to do so in Iran or N. Korea, especially, would be a grave mistake at this time. But it’s still a good idea.

So we have the right to unilaterally invade other sovereign nations? What gives us that right, and what makes you think we would be wise in the exercise of that right?

96 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:48:46pm

re: #86 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

So, if we have no clue how to do anything after the war, how was the war a good idea?

That’s a good question, and one I’m asking myself right now. It’s not something I have a ready answer for.

97 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:49:01pm

re: #82 thedopefishlives

“Five days or five months, but it certainly isn’t going to last longer.” -Donald Rumsfeld, Nov. 15, 2002.

98 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:49:05pm

Heh.

99 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:49:11pm

re: #88 Kid A

“Liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.” -Kenneth Adelman, Feb. 2, 2002.

Oh, is it time to start “turning the corner” yet? That was my favorite part…every three months, We’ve turned the corner and the next three months will be key to our success… We sounded worse than Baghdad fucking Bob.

100 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:49:25pm

Impossible to do nation-building in a Muslim country

opposed republican administration policy because it wasn’t racist enuf

101 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:49:27pm

re: #87 FemNaziBitch

People want a superhero.

A Feline Overlord.

ok, I needed the humour break,

A feline with access to, and ability to manipulate items in, the Batcave would be *bad*. Very, very, bad. Alfred would have a conniption.

102 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:50:03pm

re: #83 Bear

Oh now must I fear Santa?
//

If quantum reindeer technology falls into the wrong hands all hope is lost.

103 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:50:07pm

Unlike some out there, I don’t conflate Iraq and Afghanistan. I fully support our attacks and ongoing nation building efforts in Afghanistan.

My support for the Iraq war was based on a much more than GWB’s contentions. I recalled his real nuclear program the Israelis bombed. I was thinking of how the removal of Saddam had been official US policy since Clinton signed off on that policy. I was aware of Saddams record of not just making WMD’s but using them on his own villages and in war. Just that fact alone lent credibility to the accusations from curveball. The guy had a proven WMD use record. Was it such a stretch to think he rebuilt at least in part what the UN destroyed? Not really. The neocons were the architects of the previous war with Iraq That went well enough that lent Powell and Cheney credibility. I was aware of the passing / passport alleged connection to the ‘93 trade center bombing. I recall what Schwarzkopf said about the end of the first Gulf War, how Saddam snookered him into allowing helicopters. And how those helicopters may have been the very thing that kept Saddam in power way back then. How we were not going to remove him but clearly hoped his regime would in fact fall.

I said at the time again and again-Those weapons better be there or else. To my extreme dismay and shock-They were not there. We fucked up. As did I.

104 Lidane  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:50:12pm

re: #82 thedopefishlives

I don’t think it was a mistake. I do think that the Bush administration demonstrated absolutely mind-blowing incompetence in trying to invent reasons to go.

I’m still waiting for someone to offer a valid argument in favor of unilateral invasion of another country. Dubya never made one, and neither did anyone else who supported the Iraq war.

105 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:50:38pm

re: #90 Decatur Deb

Using the logic of the Iraq invasion, a missile attack by N Korea would be countered by an attack by Pacific Command on Indonesia.

Or an amphibious assault on the Grand Duchy of Fenwick.

106 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:50:51pm

re: #96 thedopefishlives

That’s a good question, and one I’m asking myself right now. It’s not something I have a ready answer for.

Yeah. If there’s no plan for afterwards, I don’t see how shooting the place up actually does much good.

107 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:50:55pm

re: #100 engineer cat

Impossible to do nation-building in a Muslim country

opposed republican administration policy because it wasn’t racist enuf

We were “Spreading freedom” (like it was fucking cold chunky peanut butter on soft white bread)

108 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:51:34pm

re: #105 EPR-radar

Or an amphibious assault on the Grand Duchy of Fenwick.

Hell no…They have the Q-Bomb.

109 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:51:38pm

re: #80 darthstar

North Korea can’t even throw rocks at the US, let alone rockets.

sorry, but yes. They have had a successful launch. With that, it becomes possible.

I have low expectations of them actually making the attempt. I’m doubtful that an attempt will successfully get to the US, and doubtful that such an attempt would end in a nuclear explosion.

But they have successfully launched a rocket that can reach, and they have successfully detonated nukes. I can only do do much denial.

110 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:51:59pm

“… something under $50 billion for the cost. How much of that would be the U.S. burden, and how much would be other countries, is an open question.” -Donald Rumsfeld, Jan. 10, 2003 (bold mine)

111 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:52:49pm

“My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators… . I think it will go relatively quickly, … [in] weeks rather than months.” -Dick Cheney, Mar. 16, 2003

112 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:52:58pm

re: #109 kirkspencer

sorry, but yes. They have had a successful launch. With that, it becomes possible.

I have low expectations of them actually making the attempt. I’m doubtful that an attempt will successfully get to the US, and doubtful that such an attempt would end in a nuclear explosion.

But they have successfully launched a rocket that can reach, and they have successfully detonated nukes. I can only do do much denial.

You forget that testing a nuke =/= being able to mount it on the rocket they have. A rocket that has very mixed results at that.

113 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:53:45pm

“My fellow Americans: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended.” Under the banner “Mission Accomplished.” -President George W. Bush, May 1, 2003

114 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:53:49pm

re: #108 Decatur Deb

Hell no…They have the Q-Bomb.

That’s okay…we’ve got the Q-Bert
Image: q-bert.jpg

115 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:53:53pm

re: #95 garhighway

So we have the right to unilaterally invade other sovereign nations? What gives us that right, and what makes you think we would be wise in the exercise of that right?

Iraq was a special case with respect to sovereignty. There were UN sanctions in place, and Saddam was supposed to be on a short leash.

116 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:54:26pm

re: #106 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Yeah. If there’s no plan for afterwards, I don’t see how shooting the place up actually does much good.

I think the best I can manage is that I said it was a good idea with poor implementation. Saddam needed to go. Going in there and blowing stuff up, then throwing up our hands and saying, “I dunno what to do next,” was dumb.

117 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:54:31pm

I greatly regret letting my grief and emotions after the 9/11 attacks blind me to a lesson I had already learned: that right wing administrations can and will capitalize on anger and fear to advance their agenda. That’s a mistake I’ll never make again.)

It wasn’t a right wing administration that lied to get us into Vietnam.

I’m not entirely sure WHY Bush wanted to take out Saddam - I hope not for the reasons they gave publicly. And the experts I respect the most, people who’ve been to Iraq a lot aren’t sure whether the war did more good than harm, so I can’t be sure either. Even if you ask did it do US more harm than good the answer is murky.

What I’m saying is:
we’ve learned lessons, certainly we know now that we can’t afford another war like Iraq. Whatever we make of Iran, we can’t make war and rebuild the country - we can’t afford to even attempt that.
But it’s not cut and dried either. The administration lied, but it was also surrounded by people giving other reasons for the war, ones that you could never sell at the UN, so it shouldn’t have been a surprise to anyone here that the reasons given publicly weren’t serious.

In the end wasn’t really the question:
Can we do anything to stop the will to jihad?
And there was no prudent plan whose answer was “yes” so Bush went with the dreamers. That’s not necessarily bad.

118 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:54:34pm

re: #109 kirkspencer

‘Zactly. If Saddam had been testing SCUDS and longer range missiles we would have had obvious proof that he was building and deploying them. NK has the missiles. They have atomic warheads that function. We all know where that goes. the warheads get smaller and stronger. The missiles get better.

119 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:55:04pm

“No. That’s someone else’s business. Quagmire is — I don’t do quagmires.” -Donald Rumsfeld, July 24, 2003.

120 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:55:46pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

You forget that testing a nuke =/= being able to mount it on the rocket they have. A rocket that has very mixed results at that.

Fuse burn rate of three feet per second, America is a couple thousand miles away, six…nah, eight feet oughta do it…

121 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:55:48pm

re: #116 thedopefishlives

I think the best I can manage is that I said it was a good idea with poor implementation. Saddam needed to go.

Not if we couldn’t replace him with something demonstrably better. And we’re supporting assholes who are nearly as bad as Saddam right now.

122 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:15pm

re: #116 thedopefishlives

I think the best I can manage is that I said it was a good idea with poor implementation. Saddam needed to go. Going in there and blowing stuff up, then throwing up our hands and saying, “I dunno what to do next,” was dumb.

This is pretty much the US as policeman of the world concept. It’s basically unrealistic.

123 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:18pm

re: #111 Kid A
Waay OT
Have you been to Death Valley for a shoot?

124 Lidane  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:23pm

re: #103 Political Atheist

Unlike some out there, I don’t conflate Iraq and Afghanistan. I fully support our attacks and ongoing nation building efforts in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan made sense. The Taliban were shielding Osama bin Laden and the AQ leadership, who attacked us. I get that, and I supported that war.

Iraq was total bullshit from top to bottom, and nothing will ever justify it in my mind. We were lied to from the start, and a big part of the huge deficits that conservatives are bitching about now come DIRECTLY from this clusterfuck of a revenge fantasy that Dubya led us into.

I said at the time again and again-Those weapons better be there or else. To my extreme dismay and shock-They were not there. We fucked up.

Those weapons were never going to be there. Ever. It was all a lie from the word go to gin up a fake war. I can’t believe that anyone thought those weapons would legitimately be there.

Again — I don’t get any pleasure out of the fact that the anti-war argument was the correct one. But still, I can’t understand how anyone fell for that bullshit in the first place.

125 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:32pm

re: #120 darthstar

Fuse burn rate of three feet per second, America is a couple thousand miles away, six…nah, eight feet oughta do it…

Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius.

126 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:36pm
But a new report by Brown University scholars gives some indication of the financial and human toll.

Among the findings:

• More than 70 percent of those who died of direct war violence in Iraq have been civilians – an estimated 134,000. This number does not account for indirect deaths due to increased vulnerability to disease or injury as a result of war-degraded conditions. That number is estimated to be several times higher.

• The Iraq war will ultimately cost US taxpayers at least $2.2 trillion. Because the Iraq war appropriations were funded by borrowing, cumulative interest through 2053 could amount to more than $3.9 trillion.

• The $2.2 trillion figure includes care for veterans who were injured in the war in Iraq, which will cost the US almost $500 billion through 2053.

• The total of US service members killed in Iraq is 4,488. At least 3,400 US contractors have died as well, a number often underreported.

• Terrorism in Iraq increased dramatically as a result of the invasion and tactics and fighters were exported to Syria and other neighboring countries.

• Iraq’s health-care infrastructure remains devastated from sanctions and war. More than half of Iraq’s medical doctors left the country during the 2000s, and tens of thousands of Iraqi patients have been forced to seek health care outside the country.

• The $60 billion spent on reconstruction for Iraq has not gone to rebuilding infrastructure such as roads, health care, and water treatment systems, but primarily to the military and police. The Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction has found massive fraud, waste, and abuse of reconstruction funds.

127 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:49pm

re: #119 Kid A

“No. That’s someone else’s business. Quagmire is — I don’t do quagmires.” -Donald Rumsfeld, July 24, 2003.

Donald Rumsfeld and Robert McNamara were both in my chain of command. I’m old. (But not as old as Bear.)

128 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:51pm

re: #104 Lidane

I’m still waiting for someone to offer a valid argument in favor of unilateral invasion of another country. Dubya never made one, and neither did anyone else who supported the Iraq war.

What should have made more people skeptical was that Bush’s reasons changed daily. (Yellowcake! A link to 9/11! Aluminum tubes! Mobile biowarfare factories! Best buddies with Bin Laden!) It was as if he a random justification generator that he ran every other day or so. That, plus the obvious vigor with which Cheney and Rummy were cooking the intel and the crazy-eyed intensity of the neo-con true believers should have been warning signs to us all.

129 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:56:55pm
All those protesters I made fun of? All those hippies with their “No blood for oil” placards I laughed at?

Ahhh the good ol’ days. Big deal. I was right. A lot of fucking good it did.

130 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:00pm

re: #117 stabby

<
In the end wasn’t really the question:
Can we do anything to stop the will to jihad?
And there was no prudent plan whose answer was “yes” so Bush went with the dreamers. That’s not necessarily bad.

What the fuck did attacking Saddam, one of the most secular leaders in the Middle East, have to do with Jihad?

For fuck’s sake. Reality. Meet it some day.

131 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:06pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

You forget that testing a nuke =/= being able to mount it on the rocket they have. A rocket that has very mixed results at that.

Are you unable to read? Do you not see all those “I doubt” elements?

It is, I repeat, unlikely. But if they succeed there will be war.

For that matter even if there is not a nuclear warhead, if North Korea successfully launches a missile that strikes the US we will go to war.

I say again it is not likely. They aren’t wholly competent. But they are somewhat competent and if they do, we will too.

132 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:07pm

re: #121 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

And we’re supporting assholes who are nearly as bad as Saddam right now.

That’s a hell of a claim. Not easy to back up.

133 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:24pm

re: #124 Lidane

Afghanistan made sense. The Taliban were shielding Osama bin Laden and the AQ leadership, who attacked us. I get that, and I supported that war.

Doing something made sense, but you will never sell me on the idea that we had much of a clue what we were going to do after the Taliban were taken down.

134 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:37pm

re: #123 Political Atheist

Waay OT
Have you been to Death Valley for a shoot?

No I haven’t. Shooting the Houston Open for the Chronicle all next week, though.

135 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:51pm

re: #128 garhighway

What should have made more people skeptical was that Bush’s reasons changed daily. (Yellowcake! A link to 9/11! Aluminum tubes! Mobile biowarfare factories! Best buddies with Bin Laden!) It was as if he a random justification generator that he ran every other day or so. That, plus the obvious vigor with which Cheney and Rummy were cooking the intel and the crazy-eyed intensity of the neo-con true believers should have been warning signs to us all.

That was the decisive observation for me. The liar’s story changes all the time. The truth is usually consistent.

136 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:57:53pm

re: #130 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’ve laid some of that out before. I have to get going, so you’re going to have to use your memory.

137 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:58:33pm

re: #117 stabby

+1 for an interesting point that undermines the strict partisan view, but was that not more unwise than deceptive? The rationale was about cold war geo politics. I don’t recall any big lies from Kennedy on the matter.

138 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 3:59:51pm

re: #124 Lidane

You should read the Saddam interviews. Given the chance, he was going to rebuild. That was his sworn intent. he had them, used them, lost them and always wanted them back.

139 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:00:08pm

re: #132 stabby

That’s a hell of a claim. Not easy to back up.

Sure it is. We are on very friendly terms with China, who oppress their own citizens in some ways far more than Saddam did. They disappear people, execute shitloads, etc. That’s not direct support, but China has huge numbers of human rights violations.

It’s a smaller country, but Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasog is pretty much as bad as Saddam. So is Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov. They have killed fewer of their own citizens— that’s about it.

140 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:01:01pm

re: #128 garhighway

What should have made more people skeptical was that Bush’s reasons changed daily. (Yellowcake! A link to 9/11! Aluminum tubes! Mobile biowarfare factories! Best buddies with Bin Laden!) It was as if he a random justification generator that he ran every other day or so. That, plus the obvious vigor with which Cheney and Rummy were cooking the intel and the crazy-eyed intensity of the neo-con true believers should have been warning signs to us all.

Lying cocksuckers. And the media enabled them.

141 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:01:13pm

re: #48 Kid A

Here are some wonderfully done images by various photojournalists that covered the Iraq War that Time put together recently, as well as each photojournalists’ take on each image. A few of them almost made me cry last night while looking at them as I was ashamed of myself for supporting this travesty way back then. I’ve learned from my mistake, and God damn you President Bush, you fucking bastard.

lightbox.time.com

You know, I’m saving this for later. When I’m comfortably numb.

142 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:01:18pm

re: #133 erik_t

Doing something made sense, but you will never sell me on the idea that we had much of a clue what we were going to do after the Taliban were taken down.

In the specific case of Afghanistan, I’ve always been comfortable with a primitive retribution model, where any regime that gives aid and comfort to the likes of bin Laden can expect to be hounded out of power by whatever application of military force we feel like using.

143 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:01:25pm

re: #115 EPR-radar

Iraq was a special case with respect to sovereignty. There were UN sanctions in place, and Saddam was supposed to be on a short leash.

If we start going down the road of “let’s get rid of evil dictators we don’t like” (recognizing that there are always some we do like) then that’s a mighty tricky road.

And the presence of sanctions didn’t justify that invasion. We specifically tried to get the body that imposed the sanctions to endorse an invasion and they told us (appropriately) that we were nuts.

144 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:01:48pm

re: #134 Kid A

Nice work there dude. My next assignment is in HD video. Refining gold, making purple gold, how scrap gets smelted. Hopefully as a live podcast.

145 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:02:31pm

re: #136 stabby

I’ve laid some of that out before. I have to get going, so you’re going to have to use your memory.

Yeah, you have zero credibility on matters Islam, since you parrot the Robert Spencer “Islam is the most evil of all religions, Christianity is a lot better” line. Saddam was one of the most secular leaders in the Middle East. This is not a debatable opinion, it is a fact that everyone who knew shit about the Middle East knew. He used religion somewhat, but compared to, say, the Saudis, almost not at all.

So again, go ahead and support your argument. How was the attack on Saddam an attack on jihad? Wouldn’t attacking Saudi Arabia, with it’s huge number of extremist madrases, have been a better attack on Jihad?

146 Lidane  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:02:48pm

re: #133 erik_t

Doing something made sense, but you will never sell me on the idea that we had much of a clue what we were going to do after the Taliban were taken down.

Of course we didn’t. The Soviets were in Afghanistan for YEARS and had no idea what the hell to do. I wasn’t under any illusions that we were going to be any more enlightened.

147 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:03:34pm

re: #144 Political Atheist

Nice work there dude. My next assignment is in HD video. Refining gold, making purple gold, how scrap gets smelted. Hopefully as a live podcast.

How did you see my stuff? Is it linked via Twitter?

148 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:03:56pm

Americans still sleep at night. Even the most ardent supporters of invasion walkback like chickenshits. Bush is a liberal or some other bullshit to appease their egos.

149 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:03:59pm

re: #117 stabby

Hogswallop. There was never anything good or justifiable about our war in Iraq. I said it then & I still believe that. I just wish it hadn’t taken far over a hundred thousand deaths before the majority of the nation woke up.

151 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:04:19pm

re: #10 EPR-radar

In fairness, Saddam Hussein was playing games with the inspectors, and deliberately making it very difficult for outsiders to tell what was really going on.

More than that; Saddam also deliberately created the impression that he had WMDs, presumably for what he thought would be a deterrent.

We can however be pretty sure that had Saddam still been in power he would now be in a full scale arms race with Iran, if not everyone else.

152 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:05:08pm

Bin Laden absolutely hated Saddam.

153 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:05:31pm

re: #139 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

“We are on very friendly terms with China, who oppress their own citizens in some ways far more than Saddam did.”

Oh, I thought you meant that the current leadership of Iraq are “assholes who are nearly as bad as Saddam”

Because that’s not true at all.

China isn’t as oppressive as Saddam. With genocidal massacres, he was clearly as bad as possible if you were a Kurd. And not much better for the Shiite majority. You’re stretching the truth around your finger to “win” some argument. You’d make a good wingnut.

154 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:05:39pm

re: #143 garhighway

If we start going down the road of “let’s get rid of evil dictators we don’t like” (recognizing that there are always some we do like) then that’s a mighty tricky road.

And the presence of sanctions didn’t justify that invasion. We specifically tried to get the body that imposed the sanctions to endorse an invasion and they told us (appropriately) that we were nuts.

I was just pointing out that Iraq had impaired sovereignty.

I agree completely that the UN resolutions weren’t an adequate reason to go to war (if the Bushies weren’t so good at pissing off the rest of the world, they might have been able to get a real war authorization out of the UN after 9/11).

Also, US as policemen of the world is also nuts.

155 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:06:00pm

We were watching that country since Desert Storm with spy planes, no fly zones and all other kind of shit. To pretend that he had WMDs is a delusion.

156 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:06:25pm

Okay…time to get on the road. See you all in an hour or so.

157 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:06:37pm

re: #124 Lidane

Afghanistan made sense. The Taliban were shielding Osama bin Laden and the AQ leadership, who attacked us. I get that, and I supported that war.

Iraq was total bullshit from top to bottom, and nothing will ever justify it in my mind. We were lied to from the start, and a big part of the huge deficits that conservatives are bitching about now come DIRECTLY from this clusterfuck of a revenge fantasy that Dubya led us into.

Those weapons were never going to be there. Ever. It was all a lie from the word go to gin up a fake war. I can’t believe that anyone thought those weapons would legitimately be there.

Again — I don’t get any pleasure out of the fact that the anti-war argument was the correct one. But still, I can’t understand how anyone fell for that bullshit in the first place.

Concur with everything. I still hold a bitter thread though, of being called a traitor by the fooled.

158 Lidane  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:07:07pm

re: #138 Political Atheist

You should read the Saddam interviews. Given the chance, he was going to rebuild. That was his sworn intent. he had them, used them, lost them and always wanted them back.

Of course he wanted them back. He was a Sunni dictator of a majority Shi’ite country. What the fuck was he supposed to say? “No, I don’t want my weapons back at all. I’ve turned over a new leaf and embraced pacificsm!” Not bloody likely.

No one will ever convince me that Iraq was anything other than a ginned up revenge fantasy that Dubya had. He was pissed that Daddy didn’t “finish the job” in ‘91 and he was determined to do it himself, no matter the cost.

Saddam might have wanted weapons, but we had him on one of the shortest leashes imaginable. And he sure as fuck was never going to be connected to AQ. Bin Laden hated Saddam. Thought he was a secular heretic. They would have had no reason to be allies.

159 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:07:13pm

re: #149 William Barnett-Lewis

Hogswallop. There was never anything good or justifiable about our war in Iraq. I said it then & I still believe that. I just wish it hadn’t taken far over a hundred thousand of deaths before the majority of the nation woke up.

Had to make an ethical decision about attending a LaFayette Park anti-war rally while on TDY to the Pentagon.

160 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:07:16pm

re: #151 Achilles Tang

We can however be pretty sure that had Saddam still been in power he would now be in a full scale arms race with Iran, if not everyone else.

The argument could be made that had Saddam remained in power the Iranians would not wield so much influence now because Iraq (and the idea that they had WMD’s) WAS a deterrent to Iran.

161 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:07:17pm

re: #145 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

You don’t define credibility for the entire planet. Also, fuck off.

162 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:09:50pm

re: #119 Kid A

“No. That’s someone else’s business. Quagmire is — I don’t do quagmires.” -Donald Rumsfeld, July 24, 2003.

Wasn’t the simple word “quagmire” enough to set off a neo-con/wingnut blog frenzy back then?

163 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:10:14pm

re: #153 stabby

“We are on very friendly terms with China, who oppress their own citizens in some ways far more than Saddam did.”

Oh, I thought you meant that the current leadership of Iraq are “assholes who are nearly as bad as Saddam”

Because that’s not true at all.

Well, it’s pretty true. There are still child prisons, people get disappeared off the streets, political prisoners are common— I’m sure you’ve read the Amnesty International report for the past ten years, right?

In addition, the government can’t actually ensure its citizens safety from sectarian violence.

China isn’t as oppressive as Saddam. With genocidal massacres, he was clearly as bad as possible if you were a Kurd. And not much better for the Shiite majority. You’re stretching the truth around your finger to “win” some argument. You’d make a good wingnut.

He wasn’t ‘as bad as possible’. That’s the nutty “Saddam was Hitler” bullshit. Hitler is about as bad as possible. Saddam’s genocide was horrific but let’s not pretend he was the Hitler of the Middle East.

And I don’t think you really know jack shit about China’s repression of their ethnic minorities, or, say, their treatment of Tibet.

164 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:10:27pm

What bugs me right now is listening to Chris Matthews chastise the “media” for its part in leading us into war when he, Matthews, was a cheer leader as well!

165 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:10:39pm

I see someone’s cheerios have been pissed in once again. Someone reset the counter. That was a good run, must have been three or four weeks.

166 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:11:05pm

re: #162 EPR-radar

Wasn’t the simple word “quagmire” enough to set off a neo-con/wingnut blog frenzy back then?

Yes. And back then, I was still in my hyper-conservative echo chamber. I will freely admit that. It’s been 10 years and I’m still finding myself shaking some of the fog out of my brain.

167 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:11:22pm

re: #161 stabby

You don’t define credibility for the entire planet. Also, fuck off.

Dude, you’re the one who’s made the wild claim that attacking Iraq was an attack on jihad, even though— as is common knowledge— Saddam was one of the more secular leaders of Muslim nations.

Now, if you can back up your argument— which you’re claiming you did before— then do so. If you can’t, then nobody’s going to give a shit about your bizarre claim.

168 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:11:44pm

re: #166 thedopefishlives

Yes. And back then, I was still in my hyper-conservative echo chamber. I will freely admit that. It’s been 10 years and I’m still finding myself shaking some of the fog out of my brain.

It take a while to under all that programming.

169 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:12:13pm

re: #162 EPR-radar

Wasn’t the simple word “quagmire” enough to set off a neo-con/wingnut blog frenzy back then?

it used to mostly be associated with what went wrong with vietnam until rumsfeld’s genius resulted in it acquiring a brand new association with what went wrong in iraq

170 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:13:42pm

re: #167 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’m late to an appointment and I made these arguements TO YOU all of 2 days ago! If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

171 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:14:01pm

re: #151 Achilles Tang

More than that; Saddam also deliberately created the impression that he had WMDs, presumably for what he thought would be a deterrent.

We can however be pretty sure that had Saddam still been in power he would now be in a full scale arms race with Iran, if not everyone else.

So what? We coexisted with the Soviets when they had thousands of nukes aimed at us. State actors with nukes are not the problem: they are accountable for their use and they know it. (As in “if I fire off a nuke at the US or Israel they will turn my nation into a parking lot”) That balance kept the world stable for 50 years. And Saddam, being among the most paranoid leaders on the planet, we never going to let any WMD he had get into anyone else’s hands: he’d be too worried that whomever he gave it to would use it on him.

To turn a state actor with WMDs into an existential threat to us, you need to show that it can get the weapon to our territory or that it is willing to give the weapon to a proxy that can do so, and that it’s leadership is insane. Maybe N Korea will qualify soon. Iraq never did.

172 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:14:47pm

re: #170 stabby

I’m late to an appointment and I made these arguements TO YOU all of 2 days ago! If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

It’s your problem if you want to convince anyone else of your points. You are so fucking bad at communication it’s hilarious.

173 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:15:45pm

re: #168 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

It take a while to under all that programming.

Yes, it does. And to those who can’t understand how anyone fell for “that shit”, I don’t think you realize how intense the fundamentalist brainwashing program is. The only advantage I had is that my dad, a pragmatic engineer by nature, taught me critical thinking. I may have issues with his lingering conservatism, but God bless him, he made sure I broke the mold.

174 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:15:45pm

re: #157 Stanley Sea

Concur with everything. I still hold a bitter thread though, of being called a traitor by the fooled.

this. Even though I was only “mostly” in disagreement.

175 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:15:59pm

re: #172 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Ah you’re just pretending not to remember because you’re an asshole who’s doing for show.

176 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:16:44pm

re: #170 stabby

I’m late to an appointment and I made these arguements TO YOU all of 2 days ago! If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

Should be awful easy to drag them up, if you remember when and in what thread you posted them. Copy and paste is pretty easy for most of us.

Enjoy your appointment!

177 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:17:07pm

re: #175 stabby

Ah you’re just pretending not to remember because you’re an asshole who’s doing for show.

No, I honestly have no memory of this supposed demonstration that an attack on Saddam was an attack on Jihad. Go ahead and link it and throw egg all over my face. Show me up with your excellent argument that’ll show everyone that attacking Saddam was attacking ‘jihad’.

Go for it!

178 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:17:14pm

re: #171 garhighway

Good points, which also apply to Iran. Insanity in the Iranian leadership is often asserted, but evidence is considerably less common.

179 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:18:07pm

re: #175 stabby

Dude, knock it off.

180 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:18:09pm

re: #170 stabby

I’m late to an appointment and I made these arguements TO YOU all of 2 days ago! If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

Link to them then. Raw assertion is easy, prove it or pound sand.

181 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:18:24pm

I wish I had been one of those who saw through the Bush/Cheney sales pitch from the beginning. I was not. I think I started out to the left of Michele Catalano, maybe too far left for any one’s good, and became a ‘security conservative’.

The mistake peels off in layers. The last layer is, “Well Iraq is still better off with Saddam gone’ and ‘What about the Kurds?’

If you’re concerned about the Kurds, you should know that the war in Syria is being used by Turkey to further their war against the Kurds, with the blessing of the US.

182 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:18:29pm

I almost lost a good friend over the war; he swerves to the right and just could not understand what he perceived to be my lack of patriotism.

My thinking — and I still feel this way, obviously — is that if protesting a war is unpatriotic, then war can never be wrong.

183 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:18:36pm

re: #178 EPR-radar

Good points, which also apply to Iran. Insanity in the Iranian leadership is often asserted, but evidence is considerably less common.

Especially since Iran is far from a one-man autocracy. Personal insanity is easy enough to find; institutional insanity of that form is much less common.

184 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:19:02pm

re: #160 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

The argument could be made that had Saddam remained in power the Iranians would not wield so much influence now because Iraq (and the idea that they had WMD’s) WAS a deterrent to Iran.

No doubt. The Middle East is a MUCH more dangerous place now than it was then, and much of that is due to this stupid war. We accomplished almost none of things we wanted to (but we killed Saddam, I admit that) and we accomplished a whole pile of stuff that no sane leader would ever want to.

What a stupid, senseless tragedy.

185 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:19:06pm

re: #160 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

The argument could be made that had Saddam remained in power the Iranians would not wield so much influence now because Iraq (and the idea that they had WMD’s) WAS a deterrent to Iran.

Influence? Iraq influence under Saddam would be an improvement to Iran influence, which is largely based on terrorism?

Are you saying two dictatorships in an arms race is the best scenario?

186 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:19:44pm

re: #128 garhighway

What should have made more people skeptical was that Bush’s reasons changed daily. (Yellowcake! A link to 9/11! Aluminum tubes! Mobile biowarfare factories! Best buddies with Bin Laden!) It was as if he a random justification generator that he ran every other day or so. That, plus the obvious vigor with which Cheney and Rummy were cooking the intel and the crazy-eyed intensity of the neo-con true believers should have been warning signs to us all.

The biggest warning sign to me of what a complete mess it would be was when Gen Shinseki (US Army Chief of Staff) said that the war itself would be easy, but the occupation would require a 700,000 troop commitment. And that was immediately pooh-poohed by Rumsfield and Wolfowitz.

187 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:20:21pm

re: #183 erik_t

Especially since Iran is far from a one-man autocracy. Personal insanity is easy enough to find; institutional insanity of that form is much less common.

A common error is to focus on the ravings of the Iranian president, without realizing he is a figurehead, and that the real power is in a council of clerics that like to stay in the background.

188 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:20:48pm

re: #176 erik_t

Should be awful easy to drag them up, if you remember when and in what thread you posted them. Copy and paste is pretty easy for most of us.

Enjoy your appointment!

Last bunch of comments in this thread littlegreenfootballs.com

189 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:21:40pm

re: #185 Achilles Tang

Influence? Iraq influence under Saddam would be an improvement to Iran influence, which is largely based on terrorism?

Are you saying two dictatorships in an arms race is the best scenario?

Iraq was our ally who we propped up against Iran to start with. If Saddam had not gone into Kuwait he would probably still be our ally. We made things far worse in the long run by taking him out and leaving a vacuum now occupied by Iran.

190 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:22:14pm

Two days ago I proved that my penis is the biggest penis ever. If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

191 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:23:35pm

Ali Salem’s cynical argument is one of the examples of how an attack on Saddam was an attack on Jihad, mostly through scaring the other governments into suppressing attacks on the US.

but there was a broader argument too

192 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:23:40pm

re: #185 Achilles Tang

Also, considering we had no-fly zones in place as well as sanctions it’s hard to see how Iraq would have been able to be in an arms race with Iran.

193 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:23:47pm

re: #117 stabby

There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Iraq War was one of the biggest mistakes in US history, and it did incredible damage to America and Iraq - economically, morally, and in the useless bloodshed and lives lost.

Saddam Hussein had NO connection to “jihad.” If anything, he held the jihadis in check in Iraq by brutally suppressing the Shiite majority. All of those reports of Saddam collaborating with jihadis were nothing but propaganda.

194 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:23:56pm

re: #185 Achilles Tang

Influence? Iraq influence under Saddam would be an improvement to Iran influence, which is largely based on terrorism?

Are you saying two dictatorships in an arms race is the best scenario?

If Iran is preoccupied with Iraq they have much less time or resources for other, more dangerous mischief.

195 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:23:57pm

re: #171 garhighway

So what? We coexisted with the Soviets when they had thousands of nukes aimed at us. State actors with nukes are not the problem: they are accountable for their use and they know it. (As in “if I fire off a nuke at the US or Israel they will turn my nation into a parking lot”) That balance kept the world stable for 50 years. And Saddam, being among the most paranoid leaders on the planet, we never going to let any WMD he had get into anyone else’s hands: he’d be too worried that whomever he gave it to would use it on him.

To turn a state actor with WMDs into an existential threat to us, you need to show that it can get the weapon to our territory or that it is willing to give the weapon to a proxy that can do so, and that it’s leadership is insane. Maybe N Korea will qualify soon. Iraq never did.

You cannot make a rational comparison between the USSR and a dictator like Saddam willing to do anything to stay in power; nor with a dictatorship like Iran operating for the will of Allah.

One does not need insane people to do bad or stupid things.

196 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:24:05pm

re: #190 goddamnedfrank

Two days ago I proved that my penis is the biggest penis ever. If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

I remember that thread!

It was very long.

197 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:24:53pm

re: #176 erik_t

Should be awful easy to drag them up, if you remember when and in what thread you posted them. Copy and paste is pretty easy for most of us.

Enjoy your appointment!

449 through 461 of littlegreenfootballs.com is too long to copy and paste.

198 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:24:56pm

re: #193 Charles Johnson

One of the things Ali Salem said about the Iraq war “There’s a Bedoin saying ‘You beat the dog to scare the lions’”

199 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:25:01pm

re: #191 stabby

Ali Salem’s cynical argument is one of the examples of how an attack on Saddam was an attack on Jihad, mostly through scaring the other governments into suppressing attacks on the US.

but there was a broader argument too

By that thinking, we could have just picked some random country out of the phone book and crushed it and accomplished the same thing.

200 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:26:15pm

re: #198 stabby

One of the things Ali Salem said about the Iraq war “There’s a Bedoin saying ‘You beat the dog to scare the lions’”

And what we did is more like killing the dog and letting the lions run wild.

201 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:26:33pm

re: #190 goddamnedfrank

I don’t so clearly you are wrong and Hitler.

202 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:26:34pm

re: #190 goddamnedfrank

Two days ago I proved that my penis is the biggest penis ever. If you have no memory, that’s your problem not mine.

AND I’M LATE!!! I DON’T HAVE TIME TO WHIP IT OUT AGAIN!!!

203 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:26:37pm

re: #198 stabby

One of the things Ali Salem said about the Iraq war “There’s a Bedoin saying ‘You beat the dog to scare the lions’”

A anti-jihadist suggesting we should run our foreign policy based on Bedouin proverbs? And you think that’s a good idea?

204 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:27:19pm

re: #199 garhighway

By that thinking, we could have just picked some random country out of the phone book and crushed it and accomplished the same thing.

That’s why Russia periodically lets the Balkan states and Poland go every so often. Need to set the “example countries” back up.
///

205 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:27:28pm

re: #201 Varek Raith

I don’t so clearly you are wrong and Hitler.

And now this thread is over. Dammit, Varek.

206 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:27:35pm

re: #202 wrenchwench

AND I’M LATE!!! I DON’T HAVE TIME TO WHIP IT OUT AGAIN!!!

I would hate to be stabby’s dentist.

207 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:27:43pm

Well overthrowning Saddam may have been at attempt to undo the damage we’d done by supporting him in the first place.

208 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:27:50pm

The Chinese are very interested in Iraqi oil. Hopefully we will not completely abandon their government moving forward. I am all for international aid to Iraq, if it helps them become democratic.

209 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:28:25pm

Has the missing pallets of cash come up yet?

210 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:28:42pm

re: #202 wrenchwench

That’s why I’m still here, downdinging anybody who mocks my undeniable hungitude.

211 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:28:55pm

re: #189 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Iraq was our ally who we propped up against Iran to start with. If Saddam had not gone into Kuwait he would probably still be our ally. We made things far worse in the long run by taking him out and leaving a vacuum now occupied by Iran.

Do I take it that you support the principle of realpolitik and back any regime if it is in our interests of the moment?

Iraq was not our “ally”. To the extent that the USA gave any support it was to ensure that Iran did not end up invading and occupying Iraq. To call that Ally is distortion.

212 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:29:06pm

re: #207 stabby

Well overthrowning Saddam may have been at attempt to undo the damage we’d done by supporting him in the first place.

Except we made shit worse.

213 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:29:13pm

re: #195 Achilles Tang

You cannot make a rational comparison between the USSR and a dictator like Saddam willing to do anything to stay in power; nor with a dictatorship like Iran operating for the will of Allah.

One does not need insane people to do bad or stupid things.

Yes I can. The USSR was an evil dictatorship, too. But they were, within limits, rational. I have seen nothing that suggests that Saddam was irrational or that the Iranians are.

214 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:29:14pm

re: #207 stabby

Well overthrowning Saddam may have been at attempt to undo the damage we’d done by supporting him in the first place.

‘May have been’. Nothing but retroactive attempt to justify.

215 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:29:43pm

re: #207 stabby

Well overthrowning Saddam may have been at attempt to undo the damage we’d done by supporting him in the first place.

That would be an interesting argument to try to make… in 1991.

216 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:30:06pm

re: #210 goddamnedfrank

That was self-fulfilling!

217 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:30:12pm

re: #202 wrenchwench

AND I’M LATE!!! I DON’T HAVE TIME TO WHIP IT OUT AGAIN!!!

My appointment is in half an hour!!!

218 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:30:18pm

re: #207 stabby

Well overthrowning Saddam may have been at attempt to undo the damage we’d done by supporting him in the first place.

Really? Remorse? That’s a new one.

219 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:31:12pm

re: #216 wrenchwench

That was self-fulfilling!

And this is why I don’t play ding games. I try to stick to witticisms that will be appreciated by all. My bouts of frank honesty don’t usually fare so well.

220 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:31:49pm

re: #218 garhighway

No, the damage that the precedent of supporting him does to our own position. The problem with being evil is that it’s also foolish. We supported evil and the blowback never ends.

221 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:32:10pm

re: #219 thedopefishlives

And this is why I don’t play ding games. I try to stick to witticisms that will be appreciated by all. My bouts of frank honesty don’t usually fare so well.

That’s due to Mrs Dopefish and living in Minnesota. Cross her with “frank honesty” and no wit and you end up out in the snow.
;)

222 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:32:47pm

re: #221 Feline Fearless Leader

That’s due to Mrs Dopefish and living in Minnesota. Cross her with “frank honesty” and no wit and you end up out in the snow.
;)

Yeah, it’s generally considered poor form to go unarmed into a battle of wits.

223 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:32:53pm

re: #201 Varek Raith

I don’t so clearly you are wrong and Hitler.

I prefer to read the “and Hitler” as a pure interjection, completely unconnected from the rest of the thought, rather than calling the person both “wrong” and “Hitler”.

224 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:33:14pm

re: #220 stabby

No, the damage that the precedent of supporting him does to our own position. The problem with being evil is that it’s also foolish. We supported evil and the blowback never ends.

Then we have a long list of countries that we have to invade, I guess.

225 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:33:14pm

re: #219 thedopefishlives

And this is why I don’t play ding games. I try to stick to witticisms that will be appreciated by all. My bouts of frank honesty don’t usually fare so well.

I see what you did there.

226 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:34:32pm

NPR had someone saying that the Iraq war will be relegated to history like the war of 1812. i.e. forgotten. Not to me, not to those who lived it. Not to the dead’s families, or the living maimed. Horror.

227 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:34:47pm
228 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:34:47pm

re: #222 thedopefishlives

Yeah, it’s generally considered poor form to go unarmed into a battle of wits.

Trust me, half armed is worse.

229 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:34:57pm

FYI, I always found downdinging one’s opponents in a discussion “just because” to be in rather poor taste. I like to think of it as a form of admitting that your argument has no merit, and so you’re going to pound the table instead.

230 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:35:42pm

re: #207 stabby

Well overthrowning Saddam may have been at attempt to undo the damage we’d done by supporting him in the first place.

There is the issue of how on earth did Saddam get the idea that we’d let his invasion of Kuwait go unanswered. I suspect US diplomatic bungling here.

231 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:36:47pm

re: #226 Stanley Sea

NPR had someone saying that the Iraq war will be relegated to history like the war of 1812. i.e. forgotten. Not to me, not to those who lived it. Not to the dead’s families, or the living maimed. Horror.

In the age of omnipresent cameras and non-decomposing media, no war will ever be forgotten the way 1812 and Korea were.

232 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:37:01pm

re: #224 garhighway

Then we have a long list of countries that we have to invade, I guess.

Bill Kristol agrees.

233 makeitstop  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:38:05pm

re: #230 EPR-radar

There is the issue of how on earth did Saddam get the idea that we’d let his invasion of Kuwait go unanswered. I suspect US diplomatic bungling here.

Thanks, April Glaspie.

234 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:38:09pm

re: #232 Kragar (Antichrist )

Bill Kristol agrees.

There should be some sort of lifetime limit on being wrong, so that when you hit it you have to just shut up. Bill would be way over that limit.

235 Minor_L  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:38:22pm

I wonder if the fact that I was in my second year at a pretty liberal law school during the run up to the war was why I didn’t buy any of the propaganda for a second. My professors didn’t much talk politics in class (zOMG liberal brainwashing in academia!), but we had access to a lot of presentations, lectures, symposium and research, including from experts on foreign policy and international relations. Perhaps I was lucky.

Whatever the case, I knew it was all bullshit. I was angry, too, but in a totally different way. I’m still kind of angry. For one thing, as someone said up thread, I will NEVER get over being called a traitor for daring to criticize the President “during a time of war.” For another, this war served to enrich the same people who are trying to kill social security, medicare and other social programs. It’s disgusting.

236 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:38:59pm

re: #219 thedopefishlives

And this is why I don’t play ding games. I try to stick to witticisms that will be appreciated by all. My bouts of frank honesty don’t usually fare so well.

I try to appreciate frank honesty, even when I disagree with what’s being stated. This happens most often with Mr. Falcon.

I don’t downding as much as I used to, but rudeness is always a motivator.

237 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:39:40pm

re: #232 Kragar (Antichrist )

Bill Kristol agrees.

Thinking that “Pax America” can be based on any sort of expanded military occupation schedule is the height of folly. And taking a Fischer-ish “invade, destroy, leave” approach and worse.

238 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:39:47pm

re: #213 garhighway

Yes I can. The USSR was an evil dictatorship, too. But they were, within limits, rational. I have seen nothing that suggests that Saddam was irrational or that the Iranians are.

The USSR was not an absolutist dictatorship with a single absolutist head, and I point out that it was dissolved essentially peacefully by its own leadership.

I never said Saddam was irrational. I do however think that some of the leadership in Iran is irrational, as illustrated by their prayer for the second coming in every speech their front man makes.

239 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:39:48pm

re: #236 wrenchwench

I try to appreciate frank honesty, even when I disagree with what’s being stated. This happens most often with Mr. Falcon.

I don’t downding as much as I used to, but rudeness is always a motivator.

I don’t downding hardly at all. I pretty much reserve it exclusively for trolls, or people who are posting in the heat of the moment and aren’t really thinking things through.

240 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:40:40pm

Republicans can’t tell fact from fiction

In the hyper-fast modern media world, it is easy to make a mistake. Social media platforms like Twitter are full of fake accounts, rumours and outright lies. Emails, Facebook and the emergence of a million blogs mean news, or more often “news”, travels fast and demands quick decisions and little verification.

When it comes to failing to tell the difference between reality and fiction, it seems the Republican party has a particular problem. Take what happened over the weekend when Young Republican national policy chairman Jason Whitman took umbrage that Will McAvoy, the news anchor for top cable channel ACN, appeared to be displaying a double standard about conservative icon Sarah Palin. McAvoy had tweeted:

“When will the media stop talking about the politically irrelevant Sarah Palin at CPAC? I’m devoting the hour to that topic tonight!” — Will McAvoy (@WillMcAvoy_ACN) March 16, 2013

Whitman was outraged and fired back: “It’s odd that @WillMcAvoy_ACN is dedicating an entire hour of his show to “politically irrelevant” @SarahPalinUSA”.

Of course, as any avid viewer of HBO’s The Newsroom understands neither McAvoy nor ACN exists because they are fictional creations of Aaron Sorkin’s hit television show and the Twitter account was a parody.

241 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:40:59pm

re: #234 garhighway

There should be some sort of lifetime limit on being wrong, so that when you hit it you have to just shut up. Bill would be way over that limit.

“I’d like to welcome the attendees to this first meeting of ‘The Dick Morris Club.’”

242 garhighway  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:41:17pm

re: #238 Achilles Tang

The USSR was not an absolutist dictatorship with a single absolutist head, and I point out that it was dissolved essentially peacefully by its own leadership.

I never said Saddam was irrational. I do however think that some of the leadership in Iran is irrational, as illustrated by their prayer for the second coming in every speech their front man makes.

You are splitting hairs.

243 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:41:20pm

re: #238 Achilles Tang

The USSR was not an absolutist dictatorship with a single absolutist head, and I point out that it was dissolved essentially peacefully by its own leadership.

I never said Saddam was irrational. I do however think that some of the leadership in Iran is irrational, as illustrated by their prayer for the second coming in every speech their front man makes.

That constant “prayer for the second coming” is pretty close to the surface all the time in US political circles as well.

244 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:41:41pm

OT, My culinary adventure continues. Tonight here:

sushiota.menutoeat.com

Ordering the chef’s choice.

245 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:41:58pm

And just so this is on the record - I know I said and did a lot of things during my career as a fundamentalist hyper-conservative that probably offended people, or they would if they had been here at the time I said them. I’m sorry. I know now how wrong it is to accuse someone of being unpatriotic because they disagree with the course of action the country is taking. I will henceforth only use the “unpatriotic” line with derping morons who are only dissenting to score cheap political points and not out of a genuine desire to further our best interests.

246 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:42:26pm

re: #243 Feline Fearless Leader

That constant “prayer for the second coming” is pretty close to the surface all the time in US political circles as well.

I think it would be hard to make out a case that Iranian leadership is less rational than the leadership of US movement conservatism.

247 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:42:28pm

re: #226 Stanley Sea

NPR had someone saying that the Iraq war will be relegated to history like the war of 1812.

So does that mean we get a new, even more terrible National Anthem out of the deal?

248 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:43:24pm

re: #188 stabby

Last bunch of comments in this thread littlegreenfootballs.com

Weird that 0 of your posts contain the word ‘jihad’.

Can you explain how those posts are supposed to back up the idea that attacking Saddam was attacking Jihad?

249 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:43:36pm

re: #239 thedopefishlives

I don’t downding hardly at all. I pretty much reserve it exclusively for trolls, or people who are posting in the heat of the moment and aren’t really thinking things through.

Same here. I’d much rather upding the counter-argument.

I don’t have such qualms about the guys who yell “asshole” at the first perceived slight, however.

250 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:44:03pm

re: #248 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Weird that 0 of your posts contain the word ‘jihad’.

Can you explain how those posts are supposed to back up the idea that attacking Saddam was attacking Jihad?

Blog fog?

251 Minor_L  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:44:04pm

re: #245 thedopefishlives

One of the most harmful things during that whole period was the attempts at chilling speech in opposition to the war.

252 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:44:24pm

The bottom line is that the Bush administration could never have convinced so many people that the Iraq War was necessary without the WMDs. Whatever other rationalizations have come up — regime change, dog-beating, etc. — the existence of an active WMD program was THE major selling point.

And it was at best a horrible mistake — at worst, a deliberate deception.

253 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:44:44pm

re: #251 Minor_L

One of the most harmful things during that whole period was the attempts at chilling speech in opposition to the war.

It is essentially thuggish to use patriotism as a club to stifle dissent.

254 Minor_L  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:45:28pm

re: #252 Charles Johnson

I wasn’t around the war bloggers much at the time. What was your take on Scott Ritter and the other inspectors? I believed them.

255 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:46:08pm

re: #245 thedopefishlives

And just so this is on the record - I know I said and did a lot of things during my career as a fundamentalist hyper-conservative that probably offended people, or they would if they had been here at the time I said them. I’m sorry. I know now how wrong it is to accuse someone of being unpatriotic because they disagree with the course of action the country is taking. I will henceforth only use the “unpatriotic” line with derping morons who are only dissenting to score cheap political points and not out of a genuine desire to further our best interests.

Fishy (tribute to ice & I love it). The real you shows. You were never a hater. I guess that’s how I remember people.

256 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:46:13pm

re: #46 wrenchwench

There are many more lessons than just that one. Using body counts as a metric of success was unfathomably awful, and we still don’t know the truth of how awful. Think My Lai every day.

It’s a classic case of trying to make that most irrational of human activities, war, rational. Numbers don’t really tell much about violence or horror.

257 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:46:16pm

re: #247 goddamnedfrank

So does that mean we get a new, even more terrible National Anthem out of the deal?

[Embedded content]

Wait! We forgot to exercise our option to invade Canada!

Drat. :( Can we at least blame them for Saddam?

;)

258 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:46:38pm

re: #251 Minor_L

One of the most harmful things during that whole period was the attempts at chilling speech in opposition to the war.

we’ve had a few spasms of this in the past 100 years or so

also during paranoid periods after wars such as the 1920 and 1948-54 red scares

259 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:47:01pm

re: #247 goddamnedfrank

So does that mean we get a new, even more terrible National Anthem out of the deal?

[Embedded content]

OH SHIT

260 Minor_L  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:47:42pm

re: #253 EPR-radar

Yes. That whole kerfuffle with the Dixie Chicks was an example of that.

261 Minor_L  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:48:41pm

re: #258 engineer cat

Oh yeah, McCarthyism. Oof.

262 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:49:08pm

We’re also due for another mass hedonism outbreak. Don’t we usually get one of those 10-20 years after a major commitment?

263 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:49:36pm

re: #262 Feline Fearless Leader

We’re also due for another mass hedonism outbreak. Don’t we usually get one of those 10-20 years after a major commitment?

Well, if you ask the fundies, we’ve been having one of those for, like, EVER.

264 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:49:38pm

re: #252 Charles Johnson

The bottom line is that the Bush administration could never have convinced so many people that the Iraq War was necessary without the WMDs. Whatever other rationalizations have come up — regime change, dog-beating, etc. — the existence of an active WMD program was THE major selling point.

And it was at best a horrible mistake — at worst, a deliberate deception.

Without the WMD argument, it comes down to the “policeman of the world” argument, which is dead on arrival for just about everyone except the neo-cons.

265 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:49:50pm

re: #236 wrenchwench

I don’t downding as much as I used to, but rudeness is always a motivator.

Do you mean personal rudeness or just something you consider rude to someone?

266 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:51:04pm

re: #262 Feline Fearless Leader

We’re also due for another mass hedonism outbreak. Don’t we usually get one of those 10-20 years after a major commitment?

Image: hedonism.gif

267 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:51:07pm

re: #242 garhighway

You are splitting hairs.

You are simplifying reality to suit your argument.

268 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:53:17pm

re: #262 Feline Fearless Leader

We’re also due for another mass hedonism outbreak. Don’t we usually get one of those 10-20 years after a major commitment?

Weren’t we encouraged to have our hedonism outbreak during the wars? Spending and consumption based on debt were patriotic.

269 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:53:43pm

re: #252 Charles Johnson

Bush was helped with that argument given that Saddam had not only had, but used WMD in the past.

270 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:53:47pm

re: #256 Romantic Heretic

It’s a classic case of trying to make that most irrational of human activities, war, rational. Numbers don’t really tell much about violence or horror.

And it was a particularly irrational war, or maybe just the particularly irrational war of my generation. So twisted to try to make it sound rational. And on the evening news at dinner time.

271 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:54:18pm

re: #268 calochortus

Weren’t we encouraged to have our hedonism outbreak during the wars? Spending and consumption based on debt were patriotic.

It wouldn’t do to have any unpleasantness associated with the wars. That’s why they went on the credit card.

272 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:54:34pm

re: #265 Achilles Tang

Do you mean personal rudeness or just something you consider rude to someone?

Both, with emphasis on the latter.

273 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:54:45pm

re: #263 thedopefishlives

Well, if you ask the fundies, we’ve been having one of those for, like, EVER.

Perhaps. But they also don’t understand that it’s getting together and banging with other countries that is all the fun. Though it occasionally turns out creating new little countries.

Hmm, that would perhaps explain all the fuss about the 1861-65 conflict though. You know how they feel about *that* sort of behavior.

274 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:55:27pm

re: #262 Feline Fearless Leader

We’re also due for another mass hedonism outbreak. Don’t we usually get one of those 10-20 years after a major commitment?

sign me up!

275 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:55:34pm

re: #271 EPR-radar

It wouldn’t do to have any unpleasantness associated with the wars. That’s why they went on the credit card.

Best to let the professionals deal with the icky stuff.

276 HoosierHoops  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:57:01pm

Well Crap.. I really need to post this about LGF to set the record straight about a past issue. I’d never felt it was that important on this until Old line Texan..( remember him?) He was tweeting about the unfair treatment of Realwest today.. Don’t worry OLT I won’t be silent and really most lizards care about you to answer questions upon your years ago angst over Realwest. So get ready to cut & paste your heart out but really just read.
I really liked RW as a poster and we privately talked about life and stuff..Good guy but in 2009 ( I think ) He started going off the rails about Charles. and his anger kept going worse. Now I would never publicly trash
RW but I must claim indirectly to his demise here as a poster.
One day RW send me a pretty ugly about Charles and said that since he spends a penny a word by donation to Charles that he should have freedom to say whatever he wants of his 1st amendment rights.. I thought it was a silly and a childish reaction to LGF. So.. I forward his email to a few friends here wondering if RW was loosing it or here is a good laugh anyway.
One lizard forwarded the email to Charles which I strongly objected to.
I realized my sin was revealing a private email to others and if they sent it on I can’t object without being a Hyproncite. I learned a lesson.
Now The letter Charles read would have really pissed me off. It’s good when you learn what people say behind your back. It can be hurtful to read those words that warp reality. I would have dumped anyone saying shit about me in the first hour..Period..Amen Old Line Texan.
But Charles didn’t over react and gave RW rope and time to let History and his own words doom him.. That is your Answer Old Line..His own words and actions determined the path he was going to take.
Charles remembers and I apologize for bringing up the past.

277 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 4:57:47pm

Fox News host Eric Bolling: Iraq war ‘the smartest thing George Bush did’

Commenting on the tenth anniversary of the Iraq war, Fox News host Eric Bolling claimed invading the country was former President George W. Bush’s most intelligent move.

Bolling said on Fox News’ The Five that the world already knew Saddam Hussein was a “bad guy” because the Iraqi dictator had provoked the Gulf war by attempting to invade Kuwait.

“We had to take Saddam Hussein out,” he added. “We had just been punched in the face with 9/11, the Afghan war was starting up, we had to do what we did. I think it was the smartest thing George Bush did. He restored confidence in America.”

Someone is freebasing pure jingoism again.

278 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:00:53pm

re: #277 Kragar (Antichrist )

Fox News host Eric Bolling: Iraq war ‘the smartest thing George Bush did’

Someone is freebasing pure jingoism again.

Or grading on a relative scale. The Iraq war might actually be the most intelligent action taken by the Bushies, especially if ‘intelligence’ is defined as ‘disappearing pallets of cash into Swiss bank accounts owned by cronies of the administration’

279 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:01:32pm

Botnet fraud wreaking havoc on advertisers: report

Security researchers have discovered a botnet they have dubbed “Chameleon” which they calculate is costing display advertisers around $6m (£3.9m) per month by falsely viewing billions of pages and adverts on about 200 sites owned by a small group of publishers.

The discovery points to widespread fraud in which adverts are clicked among networks of sites to generate money for sites and ad networks – though it is still unclear whether it is one or more publishers, or one or more ad networks which supply ads to the sites, which are to blame for the fraud.

Spider.io, a security group which previously pointed out that a flaw in internet Explorer was being exploited by advertising companies to track users, says that the botnet consists of at least 120,000 subverted Windows machines, 95% of them located inside the US.

280 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:02:01pm

re: #242 garhighway

You are splitting hairs.

Mustache hairs

Image: joseph-stalin-640x360.jpg

281 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:02:57pm

re: #278 EPR-radar

Or grading on a relative scale. The Iraq war might actually be the most intelligent action taken by the Bushies, especially if ‘intelligence’ is defined as ‘disappearing pallets of cash into Swiss bank accounts owned by cronies of the administration’

Its like they’re bragging about getting an 80 on an exam and they don’t realize it was an IQ test.

282 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:03:32pm

re: #278 EPR-radar

Or grading on a relative scale. The Iraq war might actually be the most intelligent action taken by the Bushies, especially if ‘intelligence’ is defined as ‘disappearing pallets of cash into Swiss bank accounts owned by cronies of the administration’

Or five years of outside-the-budget war expenses to help set up small government conservatism getting a chance to tear things down.

283 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:05:37pm

re: #276 HoosierHoops

Regardless of the sordid background [which I did not know and I have to admit I like gossip more than I should] I think all that stuff that started back then and just won’t quit all these years later is a part of the wingnut butthurt still trying to make Charles look like a traitor. He can’t win. Either he’s a traitor or he hasn’t apologized enough, depending on whether he was wrong then or wrong now.

284 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:06:13pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

Had to make an ethical decision about attending a LaFayette Park anti-war rally while on TDY to the Pentagon.

(had to run an errand)

I can sympathize. I’ve said it here before, but on the day that misbegotten sob of a war began I walked over to my church and got down on my knees and gave thanks that I was no longer in the Army. I would have hated having to follow those “lawful evil” orders.

285 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:06:39pm

re: #282 Feline Fearless Leader

Or five years of outside-the-budget war expenses to help set up small government conservatism getting a chance to tear things down.

Of course. I have no patience for the GOP ‘fiscal hawks’ since most of them were full participants in GW Bush’s various budget busters —- unfunded wars, unfunded tax cuts, and a Medicare add-on that was a giveaway to big pharma.

If I were a Democratic party negotiator, I wouldn’t put one cent of entitlements on the table until revenues sufficient to fund these three extravagances had been conceded.

286 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:07:46pm

re: #170 stabby

Cry me a river.

287 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:08:34pm

re: #147 Kid A

How did you see my stuff? Is it linked via Twitter?

No, sorry I meant that is nice work to have going for ya.

288 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:08:53pm
289 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:09:01pm

re: #272 wrenchwench

Both, with emphasis on the latter.

Both need an argument. Dings only mean you don’t have one.

290 thedopefishlives  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:10:45pm

Later lizards. Mind the flamethrowers, don your asbestos scales if necessary. And make sure you drink lots of fluids if you get roasted.

291 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:11:58pm

re: #276 HoosierHoops

I’m done, myself. Have been for years. As far as I’m concerned I should have banned all of them a lot sooner.

292 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:12:03pm

re: #289 Achilles Tang

Both need an argument. Dings only mean you don’t have one.

Sometimes there’s an argument and a ding.

293 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:12:50pm

re: #288 Varek Raith

Image: dancing-stalin-o.gif

Young Stalin is here to steal your women.

Image: Stalin1902.jpeg

294 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:13:43pm

re: #279 Kragar (Antichrist )

Botnet fraud wreaking havoc on advertisers: report

I have found spammers sending what are legitimate links to major coprporation promotions, presumably for the same reason.

295 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:14:36pm

re: #294 Achilles Tang

I have found spammers sending what are legitimate links to major coprporation promotions, presumably for the same reason.

As long as they pay for reaching a certain hit threshold, someone will exploit it.

296 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:14:36pm

re: #292 wrenchwench

Sometimes there’s an argument and a ding.

That would be fair.

297 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:16:35pm

re: #270 wrenchwench

I think we have to admit how twisted we all got post 9/11. Before that Bushs big incident was a Chinese plane colliding with a US recon plane that barely made it to the nearest airfield-A Chinese one.

By today’s far less threatened mindset the Iraq war looks ludicrous, almost impossible in hindsight. But today’s mindset is a far cry from 9/12. We were literally shocked and panicked. A bad place for policy to form.

298 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:17:26pm

I stopped the car after getting making getting something from a store that’s closing so I can add this one point that I was missing. I’m saying this in the context of that first comment in the other thread littlegreenfootballs.com
It’s hardly the only good of the Iraq war (the main one being that we got Saddam’s boot off the throats of an oppressed MAJORITY - not even a minority - and off the Kurds’), but the goal of the neocons was to create something unimagined in the Middle East, an opening for people to believe that the could live in a normal, modern society, that they could transcend sectarian conflict, hatred, overthrow authoritarianism and aspire, not to the fascist dreams of triumph or revenge but to self-determination, a normal life, to personal goals in a civil society.

It seems a forlorn dream in a region where sectarian oppression is the norm everywhere, controls every political calculation and where even majorities live under brutal control.

We thought it was going to be easy, instead we unleashed the demons even more visibly. Shiite pilgrims are still getting blown up en-mass. But exposing those demons didn’t actually make things worse because there is much more hope for the future than there was. There is a path to progress.

We can’t take the easy way out and say “Iraq was immoral, doing such horrible things as making war is always immoral” because we might even have succeeded in the long run.

The Arab Spring happened.
The popular uprising in Iran may not have won, but it is still magnificent.

299 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:19:32pm

re: #297 Political Atheist

I think we have to admit how twisted we all got post 9/11. Before that Bushs big incident was a Chinese plane colliding with a US recon plane that barely made it to the nearest airfield-A Chinese one.

By today’s far less threatened mindset the Iraq war looks ludicrous, almost impossible in hindsight. But today’s mindset is a far cry from 9/12. We were literally shocked and panicked. A bad place for policy to form.

Most of us went more or less crazy after 9/11, and I’m no exception. Many have recovered since then. Some didn’t get sucked into the madness.

300 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:20:37pm

re: #297 Political Atheist

I think we have to admit how twisted we all got post 9/11. Before that Bushs big incident was a Chinese plane colliding with a US recon plane that barely made it to the nearest airfield-A Chinese one.

By today’s far less threatened mindset the Iraq war looks ludicrous, almost impossible in hindsight. But today’s mindset is a far cry from 9/12. We were literally shocked and panicked. A bad place for policy to form.

9/11 was shocking, but I can’t say I was panicked. Granted, I live on the west coast and it was probably much scarier for those in the NY/DC area, but I can’t imagine still being panicked 2 years later. Fearful, maybe, but not panicked. And that fear was cultivated by the neo-cons. Something I find hard to forgive.

301 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:22:31pm

re: #298 stabby

The break up of Yugoslavia in the early 90s was a readily visible lesson that removing a dictator was not going to instantly create a loving democratic society. Said dictator is often sitting on the lid of a heated pot of ethnic or regional rivalries.

302 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:22:54pm

re: #299 EPR-radar

I have this wild theory-That if we had not invaded Iraq, not been so severely chastened by that reality, there are a couple nations that may well have felt the wrath of American military might since 9/11 & before now. Iran and North Korea come to mind. I do not mean invasion necessarily. But major military hits.

303 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:22:56pm

re: #297 Political Atheist

I think we have to admit how twisted we all got post 9/11. Before that Bushs big incident was a Chinese plane colliding with a US recon plane that barely made it to the nearest airfield-A Chinese one.

By today’s far less threatened mindset the Iraq war looks ludicrous, almost impossible in hindsight. But today’s mindset is a far cry from 9/12. We were literally shocked and panicked. A bad place for policy to form.

What calochortus said, except several hundred miles inland.

304 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:23:41pm

re: #298 stabby

I stopped the car after getting making getting something from a store …

Take a deep breath…. now exhale….

305 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:23:56pm

re: #298 stabby

This is essentially the nation building or world policeman argument. There’s pretty much no evidence that the results of such an effort will justify the death, maiming, and corruption we will get into with such efforts.

306 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:25:15pm

re: #305 EPR-radar

This is essentially the nation building or world policeman argument. There’s pretty much no evidence that the results of such an effort will justify the death, maiming, and corruption we will get into with such efforts.

No, it’s something much more ambitious and idealistic than “world’s policeman”

308 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:25:46pm

re: #306 stabby

No, it’s something much more ambitious and idealistic than “world’s policeman”

If so, then its that much more doomed to fail.

309 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:26:24pm

re: #300 calochortus

9/11 was shocking, but I can’t say I was panicked. Granted, I live on the west coast and it was probably much scarier for those in the NY/DC area, but I can’t imagine still being panicked 2 years later. Fearful, maybe, but not panicked. And that fear was cultivated by the neo-cons. Something I find hard to forgive.

Great point, I did however mean our national policy became panicked. Individually we were just not in a mental place to object much. Few of us anyway. Of course if Iraq had had WMD’s we would all feel better about that, but (hopefully) just as awful about the aftermath for Iraq. I do not think that would have been any better if we had found everything they said was there. Those people were screwed no matter what. Damn.

310 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:26:55pm

re: #298 stabby

…the goal of the neocons was to create something unimagined in the Middle East, an opening for people to believe that the could live in a normal, modern society, that they could transcend sectarian conflict, hatred, overthrow authoritarianism and aspire, not to the fascist dreams of triumph or revenge but to self-determination, a normal life, to personal goals in a civil society.

And also make lots and lots of money for Halliburton.

311 HoosierHoops  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:26:57pm

re: #283 wrenchwench

Regardless of the sordid background [which I did not know and I have to admit I like gossip more than I should] I think all that stuff that started back then and just won’t quit all these years later is a part of the wing nut butthurt still trying to make Charles look like a traitor. He can’t win. Either he’s a traitor or he hasn’t apologized enough, depending on whether he was wrong then or wrong now.

I really hated bringing up the past and felt someone had to respond to his declaration of silence on the old issue.

Wingnut butthurt really cracks me up ( Pun intended )
It’s now against the law to change your position on American Politics.
That’s pretty funny. I’ve changed my mind about the major issues over my adult life. I think that is a good thing…

312 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:27:04pm

” justify the death, maiming, and corruption we will get into with such efforts.”

People who live under extreme oppression live through death, maiming, corruption eternally unless there is a power that can fight their oppressor.

If you want the state of humanity to improve you necessarily support the chaos it takes to create change.

313 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:27:09pm

OOPS: Rand Paul Makes Case Against The Pro-Life Agenda

Last week, Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) introduced “The Life at Conception Act,” a personhood measure that would outlaw abortions by declaring that “human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection from that point forward.” “The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” Paul said in a statement. Anti-abortion activists have tried to advance similar measures across the nation.

But on Tuesday, during an appearance on CNN’s The Situation Room, Paul — who is said to be eyeing a run for the White House in 2016 — seemed to waiver from his belief that all abortion is tantamount to killing human life and should be illegal. Asked if the measure offers exceptions for rape or incest victims, the Tea Party star admitted that it includes “thousands of exceptions” and explained that medical decisions “in the early stages of pregnancy that would have to be part of what occurs between the physician and the woman and the family” — free of government interference:

314 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:28:29pm

re: #310 Charles Johnson

And also make lots and lots of money for Halliburton.

Sure there was a person or two in the administration who wanted that, but it’s a silly conspiracy theory to claim we went to war for Halliburton, just as it’s wrong to say that oil companies drove it.

315 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:28:54pm

re: #312 stabby

” justify the death, maiming, and corruption we will get into with such efforts.”

People who live under extreme oppression live through death, maiming, corruption eternally unless there is a power that can fight their oppressor.

If you want the state of humanity to improve you necessarily support the chaos it takes to create change.

Assuming that a desirable way to create change and chaos is invasion at the point of a gun. Roads, paving, and good intentions.

316 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:30:04pm

re: #312 stabby

” justify the death, maiming, and corruption we will get into with such efforts.”

People who live under extreme oppression live through death, maiming, corruption eternally unless there is a power that can fight their oppressor.

If you want the state of humanity to improve you necessarily support the chaos it takes to create change.

If the US goes in with military force to knock over every oppressive regime, we will end up trying (and failing) to rule large parts of the world. Our stated ideals would be meaningless because realpolitik will still govern (e.g., China will be untouchable).

317 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:30:21pm

re: #312 stabby

” justify the death, maiming, and corruption we will get into with such efforts.”

People who live under extreme oppression live through death, maiming, corruption eternally unless there is a power that can fight their oppressor.

If you want the state of humanity to improve you necessarily support the chaos it takes to create change.

So you want to decide for other people whether they will live under oppression or live through chaos?

318 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:30:47pm

re: #298 stabby

i don’t agree with invading other countries even if the reason is to “fix” them. they’re sovereign countries, they should fix themselves

we wouldn’t like it if some other country came over here to “fix” us

as for the rest, alternative outcomes depending on what might or might not have happened are, essentially, incalculable, so i don’t believe much in speculating

319 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:31:36pm

re: #310 Charles Johnson

And also make lots and lots of money for Halliburton.

not to mention returning the very profitable oil processing operations within iraq to BP

320 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:32:18pm

re: #318 engineer cat

i don’t agree with invading other countries even if the reason is to “fix” them. they’re sovereign countries, they should fix themselves

we wouldn’t like it if some other country came over here to “fix” us

as for the rest, alternative outcomes depending on what might or might not have happened are, essentially, incalculable, so i don’t believe much in speculating

You know who else wanted to “fix” the world, including us!
;)

321 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:32:46pm

re: #317 wrenchwench

So you want to decide for other people whether they will live under oppression or live through chaos?

Among oppressed people there are always liberals who imagine a better life. Those are the people I will always support.

And in an echo of the NRA crap, there may not be a way to overthrow oppressors with guns except other people with guns.

322 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:33:40pm

re: #298 stabby

So you can’t back up your claim that attacking Saddam was attacking Jihad, right?

323 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:34:03pm

re: #318 engineer cat

i don’t agree with invading other countries even if the reason is to “fix” them. they’re sovereign countries, they should fix themselves

we wouldn’t like it if some other country came over here to “fix” us

as for the rest, alternative outcomes depending on what might or might not have happened are, essentially, incalculable, so i don’t believe much in speculating

Serfs, slaves, chattel of a despot are not sovereign. It’s monsterous to use that word in such a context.

324 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:34:08pm

re: #314 stabby

it’s a silly conspiracy theory to claim we went to war for Halliburton

Whew. Good thing I didn’t say that.

325 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:34:46pm

re: #309 Political Atheist

Great point, I did however mean our national policy became panicked. Individually we were just not in a mental place to object much. Few of us anyway. Of course if Iraq had had WMD’s we would all feel better about that, but (hopefully) just as awful about the aftermath for Iraq. I do not think that would have been any better if we had found everything they said was there. Those people were screwed no matter what. Damn.

Living in northern CA, I can assure you that a lot of people thought the Iraq invasion was a really, really bad idea. I mean, if you had mobile biological weapons labs, would you equip them with canvas sides? Those stainless steel tubes that could have no other use? Well, plenty of people pointed out that they did have other uses. If people setting policy were panicked, I don’t think they should have been in a position to set policy.
I stand by my statement that neo-cons with ulterior motives did their best to make sure people were fearful so they could attempt to remake the world.

326 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:34:51pm

re: #322 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I have made an argument, it’s too abstract for you.

327 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:35:27pm

re: #321 stabby

Among oppressed people there are always liberals who imagine a better life. Those are the people I will always support.

It’s a left/right thing?

And in an echo of the NRA crap, there may not be a way to overthrow oppressors with guns except other people with guns.

Revolutionaries get their guns from their oppressors.

328 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:35:31pm

re: #324 Charles Johnson

You implied it though. Otherwise why mention Haliburton at all?

329 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:36:11pm

re: #321 stabby

Among oppressed people there are always liberals who imagine a better life. Those are the people I will always support.

And in an echo of the NRA crap, there may not be a way to overthrow oppressors with guns except other people with guns.

So you’d favor some other country invading us to “improve” our lives?

330 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:36:22pm

Weird. Usually the neocon warm drums only bang in the morning here.

331 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:36:53pm

re: #329 calochortus

So you’d favor some other country invading us to “improve” our lives?

Mullah Coulter thinks we need to be converted.
;P

332 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:38:38pm

re: #327 wrenchwench

Revolutionaries get their guns from their oppressors.

Or their swords or their rocks… or maybe we don’t live in an age where that’s still always possible. What about when their oppressor is too well armed, has too much modern surveillance equipment etc.


You’re using wishful thinking so you can get to “it’s not our problem - home grown rebellions are NATURE’S way of solving oppression”

333 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:38:38pm

re: #328 stabby

You implied it though. Otherwise why mention Haliburton at all?

Um, no. I brought up Halliburton to point out that your laundry list of neocon talking points is subverted by the fact that none of that has actually happened, while lots of associates of those very same neocons have become incredibly wealthy on a scale never seen before.

War is very good for some businesses.

334 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:40:12pm

re: #333 Charles Johnson

Um, no. I brought up Halliburton to point out that your laundry list of neocon talking points is somewhat subverted by the fact that none of that has actually happened, while lots of associates of those very same neocons have become incredibly wealthy on a scale never seen before.

War is very good for some businesses.

It is the neo-con shell game. The underlying reality (i.e., war is a racket) is covered up by a pretty layer of totally unrealistic idealism.

335 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:40:59pm

Yeah all those selfless neocons were looking out for the well being of the Iraqi peope.

AHHHAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAA!!!

336 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:41:44pm

Look, I’m trying dislodge the idea that there is such a thing as an easy, safe, moral position. Simple rules we can follow and be sure that we’re doing the right thing.

There WERE moral arguments for that war, and you know it because some of you supported it.

The opponents of that war didn’t really address those arguments because they couldn’t stand not being unalloyed good guys.

337 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:41:46pm

Greets and saluts from the seat of government. DC is a heck of a town, and you’ll never know what you’ll see next. For me, it was walking down near the Tidal Basin and then watching as the choppers headed in to the WH to pick up the President. Then watched as the helicopter settled in on the Lawn and awaited the President for his trip to Andrews and then to Israel.

Got to see Marine One fly off directly overhead. I’ve seen Presidential motorcades and what goes into getting the President to his destinations - and it never gets old. Doesn’t matter which President either. They’re doing their job, and in this case, it’s going to visit a close ally in Israel and talking shop with PM Netenyahu. I don’t think there’s going to be any major policy breakthroughs or peace deals, but the appearance of the President in Israel is itself a strong message.

338 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:42:59pm

re: #334 EPR-radar

conspiracism once again. It’s stupid both left and right. We don’t go to war to make money off it .

339 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:43:06pm

re: #332 stabby

Or their swords or their rocks… or maybe we don’t live in an age where that’s still always possible. What about when their oppressor is too well armed, has too much modern surveillance equipment etc.

You’re using wishful thinking so you can get to “it’s not our problem - home grown rebellions are NATURE’S way of solving oppression”

It’s not an absolute black/white “never invade” vs “invade at will” thing. Lots and lots of gray in between. Plus an awful lot of consideration needs to be given to the situation regarding what one wants to do, what is actually doable, who you are doing it to, and who is really benefiting from the situation as it changes and develops.

340 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:43:34pm

re: #336 stabby

Huh?

341 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:43:51pm

re: #337 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the seat of government. DC is a heck of a town, and you’ll never know what you’ll see next. For me, it was walking down near the Tidal Basin and then watching as the choppers headed in to the WH to pick up the President. Then watched as the helicopter settled in on the Lawn and awaited the President for his trip to Andrews and then to Israel.

Got to see Marine One fly off directly overhead. I’ve seen Presidential motorcades and what goes into getting the President to his destinations - and it never gets old. Doesn’t matter which President either. They’re doing their job, and in this case, it’s going to visit a close ally in Israel and talking shop with PM Netenyahu. I don’t think there’s going to be any major policy breakthroughs or peace deals, but the appearance of the President in Israel is itself a strong message.

I’m going crazy not having my EyeTV HD to follow the coverage.

342 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:44:13pm

re: #336 stabby

Look, I’m trying dislodge the idea that there is such a thing as an easy, safe, moral position. Simple rules we can follow and be sure that we’re doing the right thing.

There WERE moral arguments for that war, and you know it because some of you supported it.

The opponents of that war didn’t really address those arguments because they couldn’t stand not being unalloyed good guys.

Was quite willing to agree. And then you toss out that total BS last sentence.

343 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:44:29pm

re: #339 Feline Fearless Leader

I agree of course. Got to go again.

344 dragonath  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:45:14pm

A few years back I ended up behind a Hummer with both Blackwater and Halliburton bumped stickers on it. Epic Level Troll

345 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:45:29pm

re: #342 Feline Fearless Leader

I argued for that war for years. I was never met with a willingness to address any of the issues I’ve brought up in this thread.

346 HoosierHoops  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:46:41pm

re: #325 calochortus

First off..I didn’t know you were NorCal. That is where I was born and raised.
You posted..I stand by my statement that Neocons with ulterior motives did their best to make sure people were fearful so they could attempt to remake the world.

I can’t agree because I really see the truth about what you say about NeoCons.
But with America really fearful we cannot ascribe NeoCons to the theory of “making sure people were fearful.” But I’ll have to admit “attempt to remake the world” is right on.

347 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:46:44pm

re: #345 stabby

I argued for that war for years. I was never met with a willingness to address any of the issues I’ve brought up in this thread.

Apparently not here, though.

348 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:47:29pm

re: #345 stabby

I argued for that war for years. I was never met with a willingness to address any of the issues I’ve brought up in this thread.

What’s to address? If I could wave a magic wand and have Saddam Hussein replaced by an enlightenment democracy in Iraq, that is a no brainer.

However, that option is not even close to being on the table.

349 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:48:23pm

re: #348 EPR-radar

Some of us are willing to settle for hope over no hope.

You on the other hand want perfection.

350 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:48:29pm

re: #346 HoosierHoops

I’m not saying people weren’t inclined to be fearful, but the neo-cons encouraged it rather than pointing out that Saddam wasn’t likely to be attacking us.

351 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:48:49pm

re: #349 stabby

Some of us are willing to settle for hope over no hope.

You on the other hand want perfection.

And you settle for shit.

352 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:49:04pm

re: #347 calochortus

Why would I argue for the war on LGF? LGF supported the war!

353 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:49:25pm

re: #349 stabby

I thought you had to go.

354 CuriousLurker  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:49:42pm

Talking points and debate aside, here’s a reminder of the reality on the ground for the Iraqis & our troops during that long war:

A Decade of War in Iraq: The Images That Moved Them Most

355 dragonath  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:49:46pm

As for the war, I remember having a debate in class with some Young Republican sort who was arguing in favor of collateral damage, if that’s even possible.

Guy though Nixon was the best thing ever. Yeah. There’s yer future of Republicans.

356 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:49:54pm

re: #336 stabby

Look, I’m trying dislodge the idea that there is such a thing as an easy, safe, moral position.

That’s so easy. Just light a match. It’s a straw man.

357 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:49:57pm

I’m going to go on a limb and say that I probably am in the minority in thinking that overthrowing Saddam was a good thing - and that Iraq could have been better off for it. His human rights abuses were well cataloged. The concern in 2002-2003 was that the sanctions regime was falling apart and that something had to be done. Toppling Saddam on the human rights abuses alone was sufficient in my view to see Saddam gone - his genocide/democide of the Marsh Arabs and Shi’ites alone was sufficient, but it took the claims that Saddam was subverting the sanctions to do chemical and nuclear weapons that pushed the US to lead the 2d Gulf War.

In hindsight, it turned out to be done horribly wrong. No provision for what to do once Saddam was overthrown. The blinders were on with all too many policy leaders and “reporting” by the likes of Judith Miller didn’t help. I, like many, bought in to her reporting, and that turned out to be a huge mistake. She was used by her “sources” and that led to bad places as well.

358 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:50:17pm

re: #352 stabby

And you apparently didn’t register until 2012-unless you were someone else before.

359 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:50:39pm

re: #326 stabby

I have made an argument, it’s too abstract for you.

Nope. Your argument has not in the least supported the contention you’ve made. You do suck at forming an argument and presenting it, but that’s not the problem. The problem is that you’re claiming attacking Saddam was attacking Jihad, and Saddam was one of the most secular leaders in the Middle East, as anyone with even a passing knowledge of Middle East affairs knew.

You’re simply wrong. It’s not that your argument is too sophisticated or abstract. That’s a really sad, sad dodge.

360 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:50:48pm

re: #358 calochortus

And you apparently didn’t register until 2012-unless you were someone else before.

He was someone else before. More than once.

361 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:50:50pm

re: #349 stabby

Some of us are willing to settle for hope over no hope.

You on the other hand want perfection.

Shades of gray: I suggest you learn to see in them.

There’s always hope for a Libya-like insurrection. On the other hand, there’s always the possibility that the most intelligent and well-considered and well-meaning action will turn everything into a river of shit.

And then there’s unintelligent and ill-considered action, and we all know how that goes.

362 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:51:03pm

re: #349 stabby

Some of us are willing to settle for hope over no hope.

You on the other hand want perfection.

No. For the US to act, I would like to see a credible case that either

a) there was no real alternative, or

b) taking everything into account, the US intervention is a net positive.

From this POV, the case for the US intervention in Iraq is weak.

363 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:51:18pm

re: #360 Charles Johnson

He was someone else before. More than once.

Tease!

364 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:51:33pm

re: #360 Charles Johnson

He was someone else before. More than once.

Witness my astonishment.

365 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:51:35pm

re: #360 Charles Johnson

He was someone else before. More than once.

Ahh. That explains much.

366 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:51:39pm

re: #356 wrenchwench

It’s the stance that most opponents of the war took to bolster their position. They argued from nothing but absolutes.

367 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:52:18pm

And very possibly soon to become someone else again.

368 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:52:28pm

re: #366 stabby

It’s the stance that most opponents of the war took to bolster their position. They argued from nothing but absolutes.

Absolute nonsense.

369 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:52:53pm

re: #366 stabby

It’s the stance that most opponents of the war took to bolster their position. They argued from nothing but absolutes.

Yeah because Iraq war proponents listened patiently to all opposing arguements.

370 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:53:04pm

re: #366 stabby

It’s the stance that most opponents of the war took to bolster their position. They argued from nothing but absolutes.

But apparently you’re trying to dislodge it here and now. And you would too, if only you didn’t have to leave again.

371 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:53:17pm

Some topics really cut right to the bone.

372 Amory Blaine  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:53:49pm

It is an important topic and we’re all big boys and girls.

373 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:53:50pm

re: #117 stabby

I greatly regret letting my grief and emotions after the 9/11 attacks blind me to a lesson I had already learned: that right wing administrations can and will capitalize on anger and fear to advance their agenda. That’s a mistake I’ll never make again.)

It wasn’t a right wing administration that lied to get us into Vietnam.

I’m not entirely sure WHY Bush wanted to take out Saddam - I hope not for the reasons they gave publicly. And the experts I respect the most, people who’ve been to Iraq a lot aren’t sure whether the war did more good than harm, so I can’t be sure either. Even if you ask did it do US more harm than good the answer is murky.

What I’m saying is:
we’ve learned lessons, certainly we know now that we can’t afford another war like Iraq. Whatever we make of Iran, we can’t make war and rebuild the country - we can’t afford to even attempt that.
But it’s not cut and dried either. The administration lied, but it was also surrounded by people giving other reasons for the war, ones that you could never sell at the UN, so it shouldn’t have been a surprise to anyone here that the reasons given publicly weren’t serious.

In the end wasn’t really the question:
Can we do anything to stop the will to jihad?
And there was no prudent plan whose answer was “yes” so Bush went with the dreamers. That’s not necessarily bad.

The reason the GWB Administration went to war wasn’t because Iraq was dangerous, but because it wasn’t. They knew that after over a decade of sanctions the Iraq armed forces were nearly helpless. They knew that with the exception of the Republican Guard a lot of the armed forces wouldn’t fight hard for Saddam.

So it was perfect for the purpose of sending this message to the world: We are now in charge. This is what happens to people who get in our way. You may hate us as long as you fear us as well.

But how a country with four percent of the world’s population and twenty per cent of the world’s economy was going to rule the world wasn’t a question they entertained.

374 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:54:00pm

re: #371 Charles Johnson

Some topics really cut right to the bone.

It’s educational. I though the neo-con fever dreams were confined to NRO.

375 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:54:03pm

re: #370 wrenchwench

But apparently you’re trying to dislodge it here and now. And you would too, if only you didn’t have to leave again.

stabby goes in and out more often than my cat.

376 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:54:26pm

re: #362 EPR-radar

Well it’s a conundrum isn’t it. It’s easy to be a revolutionary liberal when you don’t have any power, no army to actually accomplish your goals. It’s easy to support the enlightened people who want their country to be out from under the boot.

But once the US can actually get in and overthrow the dictators it’s not just a symbolic stance anymore, you have to ask yourself if you mean it.

377 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:55:15pm

re: #376 stabby

So, who were you before???

378 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:55:41pm

re: #374 EPR-radar

It’s educational. I though the neo-con fever dreams were confined to NRO.

Seriously. Very eye-opening. I thought even in Oklahoma or Wyoming you’d get general agreement that pissing away a trillion dollars and thousands of American lives in a shithole sandbox on the other side of the world was probably a mistake.

379 CuriousLurker  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:56:04pm

re: #358 calochortus

And you apparently didn’t register until 2012-unless you were someone else before.

That was established back in February:

Stabby: I remember when Charles posted the first version of the gif.

Within a couple hours I had taken my copy of Microsoft word and made a gif using a fax driver. Mine wasn’t QUITE as close a match as his (the hinting for 200 dpi font probably made the lines thicker) but it was good enough to show a fake.

Bratwurst: What name where you posting under here at that time?

Stabby: It was my actual name. I’m not sure I really want to be posting that all over the internet these days, though I still use it on places where I’m registered by it.

380 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:56:13pm

re: #377 Varek Raith

I posted under my real name, and I don’t feel safe doing that now.

381 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:56:45pm

re: #376 stabby

Well it’s a conundrum isn’t it. It’s easy to be a revolutionary liberal when you don’t have any power, no army to actually accomplish your goals. It’s easy to support the enlightened people who want their country to be out from under the boot.

But once the US can actually get in and overthrow the dictator’s it’s not just a symbolic stance anymore, you have to ask yourself if you mean it.

Actions have consequences. What would China and the rest of the world start doing if the US goes on a mad campaign to “liberate” vast chunks of the third world, especially the parts that have oil?

Sounds like a perfect recipe for WW III.

382 Bubblehead II  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:57:51pm

Evening Lizards. See Stabby is digging his/hers usual hole.

383 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:57:52pm

re: #373 Romantic Heretic

That makes perfect sense.

It’s like the fact that when politicians complain that unions have too much power it means that unions are too powerless to threaten them.

384 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:57:56pm

re: #378 erik_t

Seriously. Very eye-opening. I thought even in Oklahoma or Wyoming you’d get general agreement that pissing away a trillion dollars and thousands of American lives in a shithole sandbox on the other side of the world was probably a mistake.

I think a fair number of people have come around to that way of thinking at this point.

385 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:58:31pm

Dinner time. BBL

386 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:58:32pm

re: #380 stabby

I posted under my real name, and I don’t feel safe doing that now.

Fair enough.
Were you banned?

387 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:59:04pm

re: #336 stabby

Look, I’m trying dislodge the idea that there is such a thing as an easy, safe, moral position. Simple rules we can follow and be sure that we’re doing the right thing.

An estimated 134K Iraqi civilians dead from hostilities, multiples of that number dead by disease and other add on effects. Almost 4.5K US service members killed. and 3.4K contractors, multiples of those numbers as amputees or with other long term disabilities such as traumatic brain injuries. Long term cost estimated in the trillions of dollars. All of this imminently predictable.

But, hey, eggs / omelets amiright?

388 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:59:21pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Yup. Then given a reprieve, which I am coming to regret, as usual.

389 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 5:59:36pm

re: #338 stabby

conspiracism once again. It’s stupid both left and right. We don’t go to war to make money off it .

War is a racket is not conspiracism. It is a plain fact. If the US is going to voluntarily engage in war, certain people and businesses with strong ties to the government are going to get vastly enriched in the process.

It is incredibly naive to believe this does not influence US policy making. It has done so for at least 100 years.

390 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:00:19pm

re: #382 Bubblehead II

Evening Lizards. See Stabby is digging his/hers usual hole.

Takes a lot of work to dig a hole with a knife.

391 CuriousLurker  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:00:21pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Were you banned?

D’ya’ think? I can’t imagine why. //

392 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:00:31pm

re: #387 goddamnedfrank

But, hey, eggs / omelets amiright?

Never mind that the jury’s still out on the omelet; it might well give the diner salmonella.

393 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:01:12pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

My first one wasn’t banned, I just lost the login when a computer crashed.

In the second case:
first I got in an argument with another hatchling who had gone on a weird antisemitic tirade on his own blog (there’s a long story there he was an apparently moderate Muslim cleric who used a sort of blood libel to get rid of a bunch of Jews who were trying to dialog with him) and then I got in an argument with Charles about it.

I admit i wasn’t very articulate that day.

394 erik_t  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:02:19pm

When I stick my foot in my mouth far enough to get banned and Charles is nice enough to let me come back, you can be damned sure that my first post is going to be something to the effect of “I screwed up, Charles let me come back, yay Charles he is the greatest ♥ ♥ ♥”.

Shouldn’t be like pulling teeth. I dare say that might be a sign of someone who might not have deserved the reprieve in the first place.

395 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:03:09pm

re: #393 stabby

I admit i wasn’t very articulate that day.

How unusual.

396 CuriousLurker  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:03:17pm

*facepalm… headdesk*

397 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:03:49pm

re: #395 wrenchwench

How unusual.

I accidentally my super nintendo. Is that bad?

398 Single-handed sailor  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:05:49pm

re: #397 Varek Raith

I accidentally my super nintendo. Is that bad?

the whole thing?

399 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:06:00pm

Maybe it’s because I’ve not been posting as regularly as in the past and have missed something significant, but in this thread I can’t see any comments by Stabby that warrant the vitriol that is being expended on him.

OK, I concede that the jihad reference that O has a thing about was wrong in that context, but what else am I missing?

400 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:06:40pm

re: #397 Varek Raith

I accidentally my super nintendo. Is that bad?

LO freakin’ L.

I gotta go.

Image: h40362CAE.jpg

Later, lizards.

401 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:06:43pm

re: #323 stabby

Serfs, slaves, chattel of a despot are not sovereign. It’s monsterous to use that word in such a context.

i disagree

my opinion is that the iraqi people had the responsibility to overthrow an iraqi dictator

they were not, in actuality, serfs, slaves, or chattel. your use of the terms cannot be considered more than metaphorical or hyperbolic, and as such cannot be considered as facts to use in a logical deduction

402 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:06:54pm

re: #394 erik_t

When I stick my foot in my mouth far enough to get banned and Charles is nice enough to let me come back, you can be damned sure that my first post is going to be something to the effect of “I screwed up, Charles let me come back, yay Charles he is the greatest

And after you sing songs in Charles honor for giving you chocolate cake what happens when Mrs Charles comes downstairs? Hmmm?

403 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:08:52pm

re: #398 Single-handed sailor

the whole thing?

:)

404 Bubblehead II  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:09:07pm

re: #390 wrenchwench

Takes a lot of work to dig a hole with a knife.

Actually, you can dig a big and deep hole with a knife. Takes some work, but you can do it, not as hard as you would think.

Kinda hard on the knifes edge though.

405 Bubblehead II  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:10:27pm

re: #393 stabby

And you are now?

406 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:11:04pm

dig a hole with a knife

is that like the story of the engineer who said “i knew i was in trouble when i got to the worksite and found them arguing over which type of wrench would make the best hammer”?

407 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:12:11pm

re: #401 engineer cat

I’m still glad the tyrant and his sons are dead. I don’t know, it seems like a sliding scale. Obama has killed many, many, individuals whom have been determined a threat. The horrible management of the war will damn Bush the most.

Hey, lizards!

408 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:14:10pm

re: #401 engineer cat

i disagree

my opinion is that the iraqi people had the responsibility to overthrow an iraqi dictator

Saying they have the responsibility when they don’t have the capability is kind of meaningless, unless it is an argument for doing nothing, and that applies to any dictatorship. In case you want to think that is an argument for intervention everywhere, don’t .

409 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:15:28pm

re: #407 prairiefire

I’m still glad the tyrant and his sons are dead. I don’t know, it seems like a sliding scale. Obama has killed many, many, individuals whom have been determined a threat. The horrible management of the war will damn Bush the most.

Hey, lizards!

well, naturally i’m glad that they are no longer in power. i might not even have objected that much if we had “incidentally” killed them in a missile strike

but invading iraq and “fixing” it was to me nothing more than treating the entire nation of iraq like a bunch of children who would never be able to learn how to manage their own affairs

410 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:16:41pm

re: #360 Charles Johnson

He was someone else before. More than once.

I’m shocked, shocked I say… ///

411 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:18:34pm

re: #408 Achilles Tang

Saying they have the responsibility when they don’t have the capability is kind of meaningless, unless it is an argument for doing nothing, and that applies to any dictatorship. In case you want to think that is an argument for intervention everywhere, don’t .

capability

i don’t buy it. who makes this judgement? even it they don’t seem to be able to manage it at any particular point in time, i still think it is their responsibility

currently we are watching the people of syria try to do exactly the same thing

it’s very hard and they haven’t succeeded yet

but they refuse to give up

they are showing the world How It’s Done, and i am very proud of them

412 CuriousLurker  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:19:49pm

Wait. Since when does an “apparently moderate Muslim cleric” use… never mind, I’m not in the mood for this crap. Later, lizards.

413 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:21:43pm

last word before I trek, the only reason we don’t intervine in Syria is that it’s an ethnic/sectarian conflict that’s likely to end in massacre and/or oppression no matter WHICH side wins. Who wants to own being involved in that? It’s one of the most oppressive regimes on earth, and yet we have no solution.

Personally I say that we can hope that the rebels win because what the regime has done isn’t acceptable even to protect the Alawites.

414 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:22:17pm

And because it’s better that the majority be in control, always.

Then there’s a possible path forward, otherwise there can’t be.

415 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:23:01pm

re: #412 CuriousLurker

He seemed moderate before he decided that the Israelis had invented a virus that only kill Muslims.

416 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:23:42pm

re: #413 stabby

last word before I trek, the only reason we don’t intervine in Syria is that it’s an ethnic/sectarian conflict that’s likely to end in massacre and/or oppression no matter WHICH side wins. Who wants to own being involved in that? It’s one of the most oppressive regimes on earth, and yet we have no solution.

Personally I say that we can hope that the rebels win because what the regime has done isn’t acceptable even to protect the Alawites.

perhaps you would like me to come over to your house and “fix” things there that i think aren’t working properly

and you aren’t eating enough vegetables!

417 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:25:20pm

From Gawker, a lamentable lapse in civil discourse:

Dropkick Murphys Singer Kicks the Crap Out of Skinhead Doing Nazi Salute on Stage During St. Patrick’s Day Concert

gawker.com

418 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:25:33pm

re: #416 engineer cat

perhaps you would like me to come over to your house and “fix” things there that i think aren’t working properly

and you aren’t eating enough vegetables!

International law and respect for national sovereignty have many issues and warts. However, this creaky system is much better than a nation doing as it pleases all over the world because it has the military power to do so combined with delusions of grandeur.

419 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:25:35pm

I finally found my email archives from back then and finished flitting through. And in the process I found what clinched how stupid we were. Bremer’s CPA. Before that my general thoughts were mixed as I’ve already noted. I’d worked with intel, know how often ‘maybe’ becomes a commander’s certainty.

But they tossed all of State, most of DoD, and put it in the hands of a True Believer organization. By the way, the CPAis my personal proof of the failure of that philosophy. They had carte blanche and got the rules and funds and everything they said would work. All of us who said otherwise could just wait and see. Well, we saw. Randiasm and objectivism do not work.

Feh. I will forever regret giving benefit of doubt. Nevermore, regardless of party.

420 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:27:34pm

re: #419 kirkspencer

Good points. The Bush administration took what might have come out as something of a wash with good luck and best practices in the post-war period, and turned it into an unmitigated disaster.

421 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:27:47pm

re: #417 Decatur Deb

From Gawker, a lamentable lapse in civil discourse:

Dropkick Murphys Singer Kicks the Crap Out of Skinhead Doing Nazi Salute on Stage During St. Patrick’s Day Concert

gawker.com

Hahahaha

422 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:28:28pm

In other news, Elizabeth Colbert Busch has won the special primary in SC.

423 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:31:01pm

re: #411 engineer cat

capability

i don’t buy it. who makes this judgement? even it they don’t seem to be able to manage it at any particular point in time, i still think it is their responsibility

currently we are watching the people of syria try to do exactly the same thing

it’s very hard and they haven’t succeeded yet

but they refuse to give up

they are showing the world How It’s Done, and i am very proud of them

This is not a fight against “A” dictatory. It is a sectarian war between peoples, as would have been the same in the case of Iraq. Whoever wins wil not be all the people.

424 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:31:33pm

His “last word” led to 3 more posts?

425 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:32:01pm

re: #422 Backwoods_Sleuth

In other news, Elizabeth Colbert Busch has won the special primary in SC.

Fan ~ Flippin ~ Tastic!

426 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:33:53pm

re: #420 EPR-radar

Good points. The Bush administration took what might have come out as something of a wash with good luck and best practices in the post-war period, and turned it into an unmitigated disaster.

The drive to “privatize” the recovery is a big part of what made it a mess. And I have a hard time looking at the Bremer plan and not feeling that there was a lot of cynicism built in. Just like with IMF/World Bank loan schemes—and for that matter, in private prisons in the US—the people being “helped” were paying way more than the services theoretically being provided.

427 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:35:16pm

re: #426 The Ghost of a Flea

The drive to “privatize” the recovery is a big part of what made it a mess. And I have a hard time looking at the Bremer plan and not feeling that there was a lot of cynicism built in. Just like with IMF/World Bank loan schemes—and for that matter, in private prisons in the US—the people being “helped” were paying way more than the services theoretically being provided.

One has to be willfully blind to believe that war profiteering was not driving most of these activities.

428 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:36:08pm

re: #423 Achilles Tang

This is not a fight against “A” dictatory. It is a sectarian war between peoples, as would have been the same in the case of Iraq. Whoever wins wil not be all the people.

isn’t assad a dictator in much the same way as saddam was? what’s the difference?

429 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:39:11pm

re: #417 Decatur Deb

From Gawker, a lamentable lapse in civil discourse:

Dropkick Murphys Singer Kicks the Crap Out of Skinhead Doing Nazi Salute on Stage During St. Patrick’s Day Concert

gawker.com

I am glad to know that the DM’s schooled the fool in the consequences of his lack of civility ;)

430 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:39:36pm

is teh stabby now an ex-parrot?

or is he merely pining for the fjords?

431 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:40:26pm

re: #429 William Barnett-Lewis

I am glad to know that the DM’s schooled the fool in the consequences of his lack of civility ;)

They should be charged, and sentenced to do a community service concert— in Lower Alabama.

432 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:46:08pm

re: #409 engineer cat

well, naturally i’m glad that they are no longer in power. i might not even have objected that much if we had “incidentally” killed them in a missile strike

but invading iraq and “fixing” it was to me nothing more than treating the entire nation of iraq like a bunch of children who would never be able to learn how to manage their own affairs

I actually had an online discussion with someone who remarked after the invasion that the Iraqis would “stumble and scrape their knees” on the way to developing a democracy, but we would help them along. I felt it necessary to point out that they were hardly children and wouldn’t appreciate the attitude.

433 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:46:55pm

Lol, Sanford is running…

434 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:47:16pm
435 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:47:28pm

re: #432 calochortus

I actually had an online discussion with someone who remarked after the invasion that the Iraqis would “stumble and scrape their knees” on the way to developing a democracy, but we would help them along. I felt it necessary to point out that they were hardly children and wouldn’t appreciate the attitude.

Back in a less enlightened age, ruling over helpless natives was known as “the white man’s burden”.

436 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:48:33pm

re: #435 EPR-radar

Back in a less enlightened age, ruling over helpless natives was known as “the white man’s burden”.

Coincidentally, the old-school white man’s burden has a fantastic fucking profit margin.

437 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:48:35pm

re: #433 Varek Raith

Lol, Sanford is running…

It will be fun to watch. Well, as long as I don’t have to listen to my in-laws in SC…

438 EPR-radar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:49:03pm

re: #436 The Ghost of a Flea

Coincidentally, the old-school white man’s burden has a fantastic fucking profit margin.

Surprise, surprise, surprise…

439 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:49:19pm

Later.

440 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:49:46pm

oops, looks like Sanford only got 37% of the vote in the primary, so will have to face a runoff on April 2.

441 calochortus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:50:10pm

re: #435 EPR-radar

And apparently during the same age there was an Ottoman Empire saying to indicate stiff necked pride-to “walk like a Baghdadi.”

442 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:56:07pm

A reminder. Don’t paste the whole article when making pages. Just put about three paragraphs and then a link. Using the whole article is an infringement of intellectual property. You want to drive traffic to the article’s site.

443 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 6:59:13pm

Evening, all!

Big news in the ‘hood. Turns to some old rocker bought a house about 7 blocks from me. Used to play with a band called “Lead Balloon” or something. Bob Plant I think his name is. And just a block east of him, the guy who played Frodo bought a house. Ah, life in the ‘04.

“We’re all here ‘cause we’re not all there.”

444 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:00:56pm

re: #428 engineer cat

isn’t assad a dictator in much the same way as saddam was? what’s the difference?

You don’t see the difference between a sectarian group ruling over other groups and a dictator with a gang of loyalists ruling over what would otherwise be a fairly homogeneous people?

The former applied to Iraq as well as Syria, and for that matter most countries in the middle east.

North Korea would be an example of the second type, and zero chance of a revolution.

445 bws58  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:02:31pm

re: #443 austin_blue

Evening, all!

Big news in the ‘hood. Turns to some old rocker bought a house about 7 blocks from me. Used to play with a band called “Lead Balloon” or something. Bob Plant I think his name is. And just a block east of him, the guy who played Frodo bought a house. Ah, life in the ‘04.

“We’re all here ‘cause we’re not all there.”

Do you mean Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin?

446 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:02:50pm

re: #428 engineer cat

isn’t assad a dictator in much the same way as saddam was? what’s the difference?

Less oil? Lessons learned?

447 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:03:33pm

re: #445 bws58

Do you mean Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin?

That’s it! Was he any good?

;-)

448 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:03:49pm

re: #444 Achilles Tang

You don’t see the difference between a sectarian group ruling over other groups and a dictator with a gang of loyalists ruling over what would otherwise be a fairly homogeneous people?

The former applied to Iraq as well as Syria, and for that matter most countries in the middle east.

North Korea would be an example of the second type, and zero chance of a revolution.

i thought you were comparing syria and iraq

449 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:04:31pm

Lead Dirigible

450 bws58  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:04:35pm

re: #447 austin_blue

That’s it! Was he any good?

;-)

Snark meter pegged to 11 :P

451 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:08:22pm

re: #448 engineer cat

i thought you were comparing syria and iraq

We may be coming off track here. I am saying Iraq would be just like Syria if a people’s revolution had reached the stage of Syria. You said it is the people’s responsibility to remove a dictator. I say which people, in these cases?. There is no single Syrian people, nor a single Iraqi people.

452 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:13:06pm

re: #451 Achilles Tang

We may be coming off track here. I am saying Iraq would be just like Syria if a people’s revolution had reached the stage of Syria. You said it is the people’s responsibility to remove a dictator. I say which people, in these cases?. There is no single Syrian people, nor a single Iraqi people.

I pulled over again but just for a sec.

I favoritted your comment. Yes, I hadn’t thought about it before, actually when you have sectarian oppression, a war of liberation certainly will do the opposite of defusing tensions - it’s going to make the hatred worse, vendetta is a very likely outcome.

The best case may be something that the modern world has rejected as barbaric, partition, the separation of peoples. They may decide that for themselves like Pakistan did. Not that the aftermath of THAT was good. I can’t prove that it’s related but it was followed by the Bangladesh Genocide, perpetrated by Pakistan.

453 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:13:10pm

re: #393 stabby

My first one wasn’t banned, I just lost the login when a computer crashed.

In the second case:
first I got in an argument with another hatchling who had gone on a weird antisemitic tirade on his own blog (there’s a long story there he was an apparently moderate Muslim cleric who used a sort of blood libel to get rid of a bunch of Jews who were trying to dialog with him) and then I got in an argument with Charles about it.

I admit i wasn’t very articulate that day.

I don’t remember anything like that, it sounds like a significant enough event that we would all remember it.

454 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:13:54pm

re: #453 Vicious Babushka

Charles deleted my comments that day.

455 stabby  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:15:11pm

And I don’t think people really understood what we were arguing about

456 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:16:34pm

re: #451 Achilles Tang

We may be coming off track here. I am saying Iraq would be just like Syria if a people’s revolution had reached the stage of Syria. You said it is the people’s responsibility to remove a dictator. I say which people, in these cases?. There is no single Syrian people, nor a single Iraqi people.

which people???

i don’t think it is for us to decide

just because we don’t like the outcome that doesn’t mean we have a right to intervene in the affairs of a nation-state that has not attacked us. it’s exactly the same principle as our opinion of the outcome of an election held in that country

unless they’ve attacked us, whatever happens within their borders is their affair and we have no right to intervene, no matter how lamentable we think the outcome is

you know, it’s not like what i am stating hasn’t been a settled principle of international law for over a century

457 Mentis Fugit  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:17:51pm

re: #234 garhighway

There should be some sort of lifetime limit on being wrong, so that when you hit it you have to just shut up. Bill [Kristol]would be way over that limit.

Dan Quayle’s Brain, that is all.

458 Majacita  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:19:23pm

If we are doing beginning of the the war reminiscing I’d like to share a war protester perspective. We did a little protest film against the war with some of my husband’s students and participated in the Lysistrata project. Complete failures in the long run of course. I started reading here in 2008 and didn’t pay attention to any blogs at all until then. I didn’t have arguments online but living in a very conservative state I had a lot of discussions with people who were delighted to be going to war with Iraq or Iran or anybody for that matter. One person couldn’t understand why we just didn’t nuke Afghanistan. I heard “Bomb Them Back to the Stone Age” a lot. In the run up to the Iraq war I got into an argument with a co worker. For several reasons I was against the war, for one thing we had not finished the war in Afghanistan. I was very upset that we were already in a war that had no discernible end in sight. I also didn’t understand why Dick Cheney was so sure we shouldn’t invade Iraq in the first gulf war but now it was okay. Nothing had changed. My co-worker said that he thought that a democratic government in Iraq would act as a domino effect on all the Arab countries. My co-worker is now my boss. He never called me a traitor and I never called him an idiot. We’re still friends. I understood that if the gamble had paid off it would have been great. He was blinding himself to the realities of war. The people who called me a traitor or who thought Saddam Hussein personally bombed the World Trade Center I am not friends with. My son ended up joining the Marines and fighting in these wars and I’m proud of him for standing behind his own beliefs. This war has divided this country again. I actually heard someone say the other day that we should just keep bombing the Middle East forever, or until all the Muslims are dead, whichever comes first.

459 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:21:29pm

re: #458 Majacita

Short paragraphs, they are your friends.

Big Block O’Text: tt;cr (too thick, can’t read)

460 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:21:52pm

re: #456 engineer cat

I addressed that earlier.

461 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:22:48pm

re: #456 engineer cat

which people???

i don’t think it is for us to decide

just because we don’t like the outcome that doesn’t mean we have a right to intervene in the affairs of a nation-state that has not attacked us. it’s exactly the same principle as our opinion of the outcome of an election held in that country

unless they’ve attacked us, whatever happens within their borders is their affair and we have no right to intervene, no matter how lamentable we think the outcome is

you know, it’s not like what i am stating hasn’t been a settled principle of international law for over a century

Well… There is a discussion going round that we’ve been eroding that principle of sovereignty for a while now. Started with various UN supported interventions for human rights (se for example Haiti or Somalia). Arguably that has been wedged open by various nations having more direct interest (see preemption doctrines).

Not sure the principle of sovereignty is as strong any more.

462 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:25:15pm

re: #452 stabby

These countries did not form their own borders. The west did. Although I haven’t seen any of them objecting.

463 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:25:23pm
464 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:27:23pm
465 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:28:13pm

re: #460 Achilles Tang

re: #461 kirkspencer

what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

if we are going to decide that it’s now ok for countries to intervene - invade - “fix” - other countries when that country has not attacked them or their ally, we have to accept that, without our consent, another country could come over here and “fix” us

of course they would expect us to thank them, “greet them as liberators”, you know, for their service in “fixing” whatever it was that they thought was wrong about our country

think about it, guys

466 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:31:23pm

re: #465 engineer cat

re: #461 kirkspencer

what sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

if we are going to decide that it’s now ok for countries to intervene - invade - “fix” - other countries when that country has not attacked them or their ally, we have to accept that, without our consent, another country could come over here and “fix” us

of course they would expect us to thank them, “greet them as liberators”, you know, for their service in “fixing” whatever it was that they thought was wrong about our country

think about it, guys

Happens to be my argument in the discussion. Thing is the erosion exists and down the road is going to be a major international issue. Probably after someone oh so casually entered for ‘fixing’ turns out to be stronger than expected.

467 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:33:35pm

re: #466 kirkspencer

Happens to be my argument in the discussion

ah

468 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:34:24pm

Arizona lawmakers back gold, silver as currency

All small business owners will now be required to own scales and take classes in metallurgy to determine gold and silver purity content of coins.

469 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:34:56pm

re: #465 engineer cat

re: #461 kirkspencer

what sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

if we are going to decide that it’s now ok for countries to intervene - invade - “fix” - other countries when that country has not attacked them or their ally, we have to accept that, without our consent, another country could come over here and “fix” us

of course they would expect us to thank them, “greet them as liberators”, you know, for their service in “fixing” whatever it was that they thought was wrong about our country

think about it, guys

We can’t fix every country, but you almost sound as if you think they have right to their dictatorships and that value judgement is as valid as our own, as if the fact they haven’t rebelled means they approve.

470 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:35:44pm

Had a good swim today at lunch. Love being able to walk to the club, swim 1,000 yards, and get back to work in under an hour. Of course, the fact that the pool is full of very healthy people makes it all the more pleasant, but please, moderately tattooed lady with a triathlete’s body, do you really need to wear a thong bikini for your workout? Yes, you’ve got a gorgeous body, but I damn near drowned from swallowing water when I turned my head under water as your ass was passing by in the next lane.

471 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:35:55pm

re: #469 Achilles Tang

We can’t fix every country, but you almost sound as if you think they have right to their dictatorships and that value judgement is as valid as our own, as if the fact they haven’t rebelled means they approve.

i would say, no, that would not be a correct conclusion about what i think

472 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:38:00pm

re: #470 darthstar

Had a good swim today at lunch. Love being able to walk to the club, swim 1,000 yards, and get back to work in under an hour. Of course, the fact that the pool is full of very healthy people makes it all the more pleasant, but please, moderately tattooed lady with a triathlete’s body, do you really need to wear a thong bikini for your workout? Yes, you’ve got a gorgeous body, but I damn near drowned from swallowing water when I turned my head under water as your ass was passing by in the next lane.

Suffer through Darth.

473 Destro  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:38:03pm

re: #29 Targetpractice

ThinkProgress has a timeline of the major events, from the official start of the war til the official end. And reading through it is just stomach-churning.

A TIMELINE OF THE IRAQ WAR

Ted Koppel was soon after replaced by Jimmy Kimmel.

474 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:38:29pm

re: #471 engineer cat

i would say, no, that would not be a correct conclusion about what i think

Then one of us is not explaing something very well.

475 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:38:37pm

re: #470 darthstar

Had a good swim today at lunch. Love being able to walk to the club, swim 1,000 yards, and get back to work in under an hour. Of course, the fact that the pool is full of very healthy people makes it all the more pleasant, but please, moderately tattooed lady with a triathlete’s body, do you really need to wear a thong bikini for your workout? Yes, you’ve got a gorgeous body, but I damn near drowned from swallowing water when I turned my head under water as your ass was passing by in the next lane.

Pissed off right now. I was doing 30 minutes of running 3 days a week and then banged up my leg. Need to take it easy for the next couple days.

476 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:39:25pm

Remember this. There are many Iraq War veterans, some that have lost limbs, have been burnt from the flames of IEDs, that still believe what we did was the right thing. That are still proud to have served and sacrificed themselves for this war.

477 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:40:17pm

re: #472 Stanley Sea

Suffer through Darth.

I sacrifice myself for my fellow man.

478 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:41:13pm

This thread is why LGF is the best damn blog in the world. I love you all, for real. And the Pens made it ten-in-a-row tonight!

(Sorry, lol)

479 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:42:13pm

re: #474 Achilles Tang

Then one of us is not explaing something very well.

the principle of national sovereignty is, simply, that if a nation-state is not actively attacking another nation-state, it has the right to be left alone to settle its affairs as best it can

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

en.wikipedia.org

480 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:43:13pm

re: #470 darthstar

So went to.. new to us.. sushi bar. Line at 530 when they opened. We ordered the omakase (chefs choice sashimi). Uni in its shell, eating the giant live prawn’s tail while its head planted on the plate continued to move.
Ex c e pt ional. Sushi Ota, pacific beach, sd.

481 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:43:43pm

re: #478 Kid A

This thread is why LGF is the best damn blog in the world. I love you all, for real. And the Pens made it ten-in-a-row tonight!

(Sorry, lol)

Wow.

Given what was going on earlier in the thread, I misread this “And the Penis made it ten-in-a row tonight!”

I was just about to say “Congratulations, you stud, you.”

482 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:44:08pm

re: #476 Gus

Remember this. There are many Iraq War veterans, some that have lost limbs, have been burnt from the flames of IEDs, that still believe what we did was the right thing. That are still proud to have served and sacrificed themselves for this war.

And their sacrifice must be honored and remembered. Whatever else is true, the mistake America made during and after Vietnam of treating the veterans of that war as either victims or villains should not be repeated. We should treat those who served as our best and bravest, and make sure we honor their sacrifice and service. That is the best way for Americans to conduct themselves.

483 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:44:20pm

re: #475 Kragar (Antichrist )

Pissed off right now. I was doing 30 minutes of running 3 days a week and then banged up my leg. Need to take it easy for the next couple days.

I almost feel sympathetic. (grin) More seriously, glad it isn’t as bad as Gus and I got.

484 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:45:05pm

re: #479 engineer cat

the principle of national sovereignty is, simply, that if a nation-state is not actively attacking another nation-state, it has the right to be left alone to settle its affairs as best it can

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

en.wikipedia.org

yes I know. Every despot knows that too.

485 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:45:18pm

re: #480 Stanley Sea

So went to.. new to us.. sushi bar. Line at 530 when they opened. We ordered the omakase (chefs choice sashimi). Uni in its shell, eating the giant live prawn’s tail while its head planted on the plate continued to move.
Ex c e pt ional. Sushi Ota, pacific beach, sd.

Sushi Ota…making a note of it. Sounds fantastic.

486 darthstar  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:46:42pm

re: #481 BongCrodny

Wow.

Given what was going on earlier in the thread, I misread this “And the Penis made it ten-in-a row tonight!”

I was just about to say “Congratulations, you stud, you.”

Good penis. And to add irony to that, Lawrence O’Donnell is showing Bob Dole’s Viagara and Pepsi ads.

487 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:46:58pm

re: #473 Destro

So? What does that have to do with anything?

488 Kid A  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:49:18pm

re: #481 BongCrodny

re: #481 BongCrodny

I just pissed in my pants reading your reply. Thanks, buddy! LOL!

489 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:49:35pm

re: #468 Kragar (Antichrist )

Arizona lawmakers back gold, silver as currency

All small business owners will now be required to own scales and take classes in metallurgy to determine gold and silver purity content of coins.

Easy. Spin a silver coin on a table top. There is a ‘ring’ that clad coins don’t have that is easy to spot. As for gold a small bottle of Aqua Regia will do…


What?


///// The silver tip is real. My Morgan that I keep in my pocket make a delightful sound when I’m waiting someplace and flipping it :D

490 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:51:35pm

re: #484 Achilles Tang

yes I know. Every despot knows that too.

there are millions of wingnuts, you know, who would instantly agree with the proposition that obama is a despot, that he does not have the legal or constitutional right to be president of the united states, that he is violating the constitution, and that the things that he is doing or that they imagine that he will do will destroy the country

491 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:51:38pm

re: #482 Dark_Falcon

I agree with you. It’s also why I despise how the chicken hawks that run the Republican Party have been treating Veteran’s affairs.

Spit.

492 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:51:42pm

re: #485 darthstar

Sushi Ota…making a note of it. Sounds fantastic.

Darth, it’s prime. Next to a 7/11 even. We couldn’t get a bar seat till 10. Suffered through table. Ha, we survived. Never hard fish so fresh.

493 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:52:13pm

re: #465 engineer cat

re: #461 kirkspencer

what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

if we are going to decide that it’s now ok for countries to intervene - invade - “fix” - other countries when that country has not attacked them or their ally, we have to accept that, without our consent, another country could come over here and “fix” us

of course they would expect us to thank them, “greet them as liberators”, you know, for their service in “fixing” whatever it was that they thought was wrong about our country

think about it, guys

WOLVERINES!

//

494 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:54:17pm

re: #489 William Barnett-Lewis

Easy. Spin a silver coin on a table top. There is a ‘ring’ that clad coins don’t have that is easy to spot. As for gold a small bottle of Aqua Regia will do…

What?

///// The silver tip is real. My Morgan that I keep in my pocket make a delightful sound when I’m waiting someplace and flipping it :D

I understand that titanium clad in gold is impossible to tell from solid gold by weight or surface tests with normal equipment.

495 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:56:11pm

re: #491 William Barnett-Lewis

I agree with you. It’s also why I despise how the chicken hawks that run the Republican Party have been treating Veteran’s affairs.

Spit.

DoVA is my opinion an agency that ought to be exempt from any funding cuts that would impact service quality or timelines. That doesn’t mean you don’t go after fraud, waste, and duplicated functions; Those should always be gone after. But those who have served have earned their care and if the rest of us have to be taxed to provide it, then I say “Money well spent!”

496 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 7:58:32pm

re: #482 Dark_Falcon

And their sacrifice must be honored and remembered. Whatever else is true, the mistake America made during and after Vietnam of treating the veterans of that war as either victims or villains should not be repeated. We should treat those who served as our best and bravest, and make sure we honor their sacrifice and service. That is the best way for Americans to conduct themselves.

Been a long day. I’m glad that Americans finally remembered about the Iraq War because it’s been ten years mainly because humans have 10 fingers on their hands. Seeing a lot of the old BDS and Giant Puppet rhetoric I haven’t seen in ages. Can’t for this to end so they can go back to calling Obama a war criminal as well for his drone policy. A lot of these people still think that Bush and company will be charged as war criminals. That’s not going to happen. Sadly, most of those people calling for them to be charged will be obsessed with this notion for the rest of their lives.

497 Gus  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:00:00pm

Not using Tweetdeck but if I did I would filter out Iraq.

498 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:03:26pm

re: #494 Achilles Tang

I understand that titanium clad in gold is impossible to tell from solid gold by weight or surface tests with normal equipment.

Not quite - that aqua regia test I jokingly refered to would because gold can be dissolved by it but titanium can not.

As an aside, there is this from the wiki on Aqua Regia:

When Germany invaded Denmark in World War II, Hungarian chemist George de Hevesy dissolved the gold Nobel Prizes of German physicists Max von Laue (1914) and James Franck (1925) in aqua regia to prevent the Nazis from confiscating them. The German government had prohibited Germans from accepting or keeping any Nobel Prize after jailed peace activist Carl von Ossietzky had received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1935. De Hevesy placed the resulting solution on a shelf in his laboratory at the Niels Bohr Institute. It was subsequently ignored by the Nazis who thought the jar—one of perhaps hundreds on the shelving—contained common chemicals. After the war, de Hevesy returned to find the solution undisturbed and precipitated the gold out of the acid. The gold was returned to the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and the Nobel Foundation. They re-cast the medals and again presented them to Laue and Franck.[12][13]

Nice way to use science to smack the Nazi’s in the face.

499 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:04:58pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

DoVA is my opinion an agency that ought to be exempt from any funding cuts that would impact service quality or timelines. That doesn’t mean you don’t go after fraud, waste, and duplicated functions; Those should always be gone after. But those who have served have earned their care and if the rest of us have to be taxed to provide it, then I say “Money well spent!”

Not sure I’ve ever said this before, but…

Quite Concur.

500 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:05:09pm

re: #496 Gus

Been a long day. I’m glad that Americans finally remembered about the Iraq War because it’s been ten years mainly because humans have 10 finger on their hands. Seeing a lot of the old BDS and Giant Puppet rhetoric I haven’t seen in ages. Can’t for this to end so they can go back to calling Obama a war criminal as well for his drone policy. A lot of these people still think that Bush and company will be charged as war criminals. That’s not going to happen. Sadly, most of those people calling for them to be charged will be obsessed with this notion for the rest of their lives.

The cardinal reason Bush will never be charged as a ‘war criminal’: Barack Obama did not want to set a precedent that would risk the critical tradition of a peaceful transfer of power in the US. That’s also why, should a Republican win in 2016, I predict the wingnuts will end up finding their guy has no willingness to go after Obama once he leaves office. Neither party’s leadership wants to create a situation where the president might be tempted to overthrow the Constitutional order because he was afraid of a politically minded prosecution by his successor.

501 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:07:09pm

re: #498 William Barnett-Lewis

Not quite - that aqua regia test I jokingly refered to would because gold can be dissolved by it but titanium can not.

As an aside, there is this from the wiki on Aqua Regia:

Nice way to use science to smack the Nazi’s in the face.

On that note, check this Page out.

502 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:09:58pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

DoVA is my opinion an agency that ought to be exempt from any funding cuts that would impact service quality or timelines. That doesn’t mean you don’t go after fraud, waste, and duplicated functions; Those should always be gone after. But those who have served have earned their care and if the rest of us have to be taxed to provide it, then I say “Money well spent!”

I know you do believe that.

Unfortunately, I’ve run into more than a few of those who squeal about “supporting our troops” that would equally want to end all funding for the VA. Private charity and all that crap that never actually happens, don’t ‘cha know?

A veteran is someone who gave a blank check to Uncle Sam saying “Fill in the amount, even up to my life, as need be”. Too many do not understand that reality and that is one of the biggest reasons I support a national service system.

503 palomino  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:11:05pm

re: #193 Charles Johnson

There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Iraq War was one of the biggest mistakes in US history, and it did incredible damage to America and Iraq - economically, morally, and in the useless bloodshed and lives lost.

Saddam Hussein had NO connection to “jihad.” If anything, he held the jihadis in check in Iraq by brutally suppressing the Shiite majority. All of those reports of Saddam collaborating with jihadis were nothing but propaganda.

If what you’re saying was NOT true, then Republicans would be trumpeting the great Bush Administration successes in Iraq. Instead, for the GOP, it’s become the issue that dare not speak its name. No one in the GOP wants to talk about it, except Luap Nor (and that’s only to reiterate that the war was a disaster.)

504 Olsonist  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:18:31pm

Tora Bora was well before the 2004 election. December 12, 2001.
Valerie Plame was well before the 2004 election. July 14, 2003.
We’d been in Iraq with no WMDs for a year and a half, well before the 2004 election.
I don’t know where he is. I really just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you. That was well before the 2004 election. March 13, 2002.

I’m very glad Michele Catalano, and Charles, finally figured things out lo these many years later because there was more than enough evidence out there well before the 2004 election such that they could have made informed decisions.

Myself, I was a traitor to my country in 2004. I was also deeply anti-semitic and obviously an al Qaeda sympathiser. Well, thankfully I’m not anymore although occasionally I’m an American apologist.

Does this left of center on domestic policy and hardcore realist on foreign policy sound just a little bit bitter? Well, yeah, I am.

To be clear, I was opposed to the Iraq invasion and I was wondering what we were doing about Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. Yeah, May 2, 2011 was a good day.

505 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:19:51pm

re: #504 Olsonist

Well hello, stranger!

506 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:22:33pm

re: #501 Dark_Falcon

On that note, check this Page out.

Thank you for the heads-up. The photo of Bourke-White holding a Rollie on the B-17’s wing is now my wallpaper.

507 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:24:44pm

re: #506 William Barnett-Lewis

Thank you for the heads-up. The photo of Bourke-White holding a Rollie on the B-17’s wing is now my wallpaper.

Glad to help. You know how much I like WWII history.

508 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:29:03pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

Glad to help. You know how much I like WWII history.

True. But it was even more fun seeing an American woman, in the Army, taking pictures of the Air Corps getting ready to bomb Germany - with one of the very best of German cameras :) FOTFLMAO x1000.

My Rollie is, by it’s serial number, from 1952 ;)

509 palomino  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:39:52pm

re: #500 Dark_Falcon

The cardinal reason Bush will never be charged as a ‘war criminal’: Barack Obama did not want to set a precedent that would risk the critical tradition of a peaceful transfer of power in the US. That’s also why, should a Republican win in 2016, I predict the wingnuts will end up finding their guy has no willingness to go after Obama once he leaves office. Neither party’s leadership wants to create a situation where the president might be tempted to overthrow the Constitutional order because he was afraid of a politically minded prosecution by his successor.

Yeah, well said. Furthermore, no president wants to open himself up to prosecution later by prosecuting his predecessor right after taking office. Particularly given the fact that the incoming president knows he’ll have to make tough and nasty decisions once in office.

You can make a case—and a few on the far left do—that virtually every modern president was guilty of some war crime, or at least violation of federal law and/or international treaties or conventions. I don’t agree with that position, but here’s a partial list of how that argument would go:

FDR - Internment camps
Truman - atomic weapons
Eisenhower - overthrowing Mossadegh (elected leader of Iran)
JFK - Bay of Pigs
LBJ - Vietnam
Nixon - Vietnam, Cambodia, assassination of Salvador Allende, etc., etc.
Ford - I can’t think of anything off top of my head; not in office long enough
Carter - See Ford
Reagan - Iran Contra
Bush Sr. - Iraq
Clinton - bombing in the Balkans
Bush Jr. - Iraq, torture, Gitmo
Obama - drones

510 danhenry1  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:42:07pm

I really do hope you all remember, M.I.C.key Mouse, from Full Metal right?
They weren’t singin about disneyland.

511 Mentis Fugit  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:45:05pm

re: #402 Feline Fearless Leader

And after you sing songs in Charles honor for giving you chocolate cake what happens when Mrs Charles comes downstairs? Hmmm?

Mmmmm, chocolate cake.
(Crowded House in an uncharacteristically acerbic mode.)

512 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:46:39pm

re: #492 Stanley Sea

Darth, it’s prime. Next to a 7/11 even. We couldn’t get a bar seat till 10. Suffered through table. Ha, we survived. Never hard fish so fresh.

I was outrageously jealous when you posted that menu.

/desert lizard

513 bathos  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:48:32pm

I read The Threatening Storm around 2002 as well, and found it pretty convincing at the time. To be honest I think Pollack’s arguments still stand up pretty well today, because they were subtlely different to the “Saddam has WMDs!” claims used to agitate for war in the MSM. Containment wasn’t working and deterrence was unworkable in the long-term. Neither of those claims has been refuted by subsequent events, although perhaps the second is unfalsifiable. To be honest I don’t know what should have been done. The implementation of the Iraq War was a debacle, but the “cakewalk” in-and-out scenario was probably impossible, even if the US and her allies had done everything right. We’ll also never know if things would have turned out worse if Saddam had remained in power. What the warhawks did get right was that ousting Saddam would lead to a democratic “domino effect” in the region: the Arab Spring and then the uprising against Ghaddafi.

My nation wasn’t a member of the Coalition of the Willing, so I don’t feel the moral culpability for my opinions on the Iraq War that many pro-war Americans obviously do, but I wouldn’t beat yourselves up over it too much. If you supported the war for idealistic humanitarian reasons, hey, perhaps you made a mistake, but you’re still a decent human being.

514 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:49:54pm

re: #489 William Barnett-Lewis

Easy. Spin a silver coin on a table top. There is a ‘ring’ that clad coins don’t have that is easy to spot. As for gold a small bottle of Aqua Regia will do…

What?

///// The silver tip is real. My Morgan that I keep in my pocket make a delightful sound when I’m waiting someplace and flipping it :D

When I worked at a convenience store, I could hear the difference when handling change. I bought a lot of dimes and quarters out of the till.

515 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:51:58pm

re: #509 palomino

Re: President Ford
I have seen (do NOT agree with, only seen) people make that arguement about the operation to rescue the crew of the SS Mayaguez. That’s the only thing even slightly questionable on his watch.

He was, perhaps, the most honorable president of the century simply by the fact that he was the only one who didn’t go looking for it. IIRC, his goal was to be speaker, not president. Had that happened, I have no doubt that 1) he would have had more real power and 2) he would have been insanely far better at it than our current incompetent speaker…

516 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:54:12pm

re: #513 bathos

Welcome, hatchling.

What the warhawks did get right was that ousting Saddam would lead to a democratic “domino effect” in the region: the Arab Spring and then the uprising against Ghaddafi.

I wonder whether we can know if that has a cause and effect relationship.

517 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:57:56pm

re: #509 palomino

Yeah, well said. Furthermore, no president wants to open himself up to prosecution later by prosecuting his predecessor right after taking office. Particularly given the fact that the incoming president knows he’ll have to make tough and nasty decisions once in office.

You can make a case—and a few on the far left do—that virtually every modern president was guilty of some war crime, or at least violation of federal law and/or international treaties or conventions. I don’t agree with that position, but here’s a partial list of how that argument would go:

FDR - Internment camps
Truman - atomic weapons
Eisenhower - overthrowing Mossadegh (elected leader of Iran)
JFK - Bay of Pigs
LBJ - Vietnam
Nixon - Vietnam, Cambodia, assassination of Salvador Allende, etc., etc.
Ford - I can’t think of anything off top of my head; not in office long enough
Carter - See Ford
Reagan - Iran Contra
Bush Sr. - Iraq
Clinton - bombing in the Balkans
Bush Jr. - Iraq, torture, Gitmo
Obama - drones

Gulf War II (I think of the Iran-Iraq War as Gulf War I) was authorized by the UN, so “international law” types do not generally consider it to have been ‘illegal’, the illegality falling on Saddam Hussein for invading and attempting to annex Kuwait.

518 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 8:59:14pm

re: #513 bathos

And pray tell, what nation are you from?

519 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 9:00:44pm

re: #510 danhenry1

I really do hope you all remember, M.I.C.key Mouse, from Full Metal right?
They weren’t singin about disneyland.

Yes, but that was a movie. It ought not to be taken as a entirely accurate depiction of the Vietnam War.

520 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 9:03:06pm

Bush Sr’s sins of omission & comission were more likely to have happened at the Company than the White House… I have few problems with him. He should have expressed where the US would help better but they should have paid more attention to the details as well. The only thing we’d have gained by invading in Gulf One was to start the insurgency that much sooner as most of the same incompetents would still be impacting the decisions.

521 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 9:06:12pm

re: #513 bathos

When this disaster was begun, I pissed off my best friend because I told him I did not trust the Bush Administration to be able to end the war before my, then 1 year old, son was drafted. Given how badly they fubared the exercise I’d say my belief was closer to true than that evil SOB Cheney’s.

522 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 9:08:21pm

re: #520 William Barnett-Lewis

Bush Sr’s sins of omission & comission were more likely to have happened at the Company than the White House… I have few problems with him. He should have expressed where the US would help better but they should have paid more attention to the details as well. The only thing we’d have gained by invading in Gulf One was to start the insurgency that much sooner as most of the same incompetents would still be impacting the decisions.

While the posters on this thread have been reasonable on the topic of Iraq, we just had a turd of a Page posted. Thinking Iraq a mistake is one thing, making it the subject of a conspiracy theory is quite another.

523 bathos  Tue, Mar 19, 2013 9:38:21pm

re: #516 wrenchwench

I wonder whether we can know if that has a cause and effect relationship.

Here’s an opinion piece on CNN about that question. It leans toward no, although there were “indirect” connections.

Another prediction made by Kenneth Pollack in his book that came true was that US casualties during the invasion and occupation of Iraq would be around 5,000 KIA. That turned out to be roughly correct, although obviously that’s no consolation to anyone. It is interesting to me though that people think the casualties were a lot higher than expected, when actually they weren’t. Perhaps 5,000 dead sounds like “acceptable losses” when it’s just a hypothetical number.

Thanks for the welcome.

re: #518 Dark_Falcon

I’m from New Zealand. Our government didn’t sent troops during the initial invasion, but did send some during the occupation.

re: #521 William Barnett-Lewis

By about 2008, I thought it was going to drag on for decades.

524 chadu  Wed, Mar 20, 2013 7:09:29am

re: #337 lawhawk

I’ve seen Presidential motorcades and what goes into getting the President to his destinations - and it never gets old.

It gets old when 15th Street gets blocked off for the motorcade during your evening commute. /// :P

525 Major Tom  Wed, Mar 20, 2013 8:45:00am

I personally never bought into the idea of preemptive war, or torture… I was for Afghanistan, but Iraq was always a bridge too far… 9/11 didn’t change my mindset. What I had to endure was people telling me how naive I was to be against the War, my family included, condescending to me and labeling me a hippie, a peacenik, and a code pinker… The hawks of this country circa 2002-2006ish were dismissive, and even cruel to those that were skeptical or simply against the military adventurism of the Bush administration. Its nice that people finally came around, but for a while, I was a fringe figure in this country. It was pretty surreal, and I have a bitterness to group think to this day because of it.

526 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 20, 2013 9:46:09am

re: #468 Kragar (Antichrist )

Arizona lawmakers back gold, silver as currency

All small business owners will now be required to own scales and take classes in metallurgy to determine gold and silver purity content of coins.

Oh, for Jesus Christs’s sake!

Can we drop these people on a island somewhere? Where they can build their anarchist utopia? I can guarantee that the ‘New Galt’s Gulch’ will be empty of human life in less than a decade.

Because they’re just that stupid.

527 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 20, 2013 10:02:15am

re: #517 Dark_Falcon

Gulf War II (I think of the Iran-Iraq War as Gulf War I) was authorized by the UN, so “international law” types do not generally consider it to have been ‘illegal’, the illegality falling on Saddam Hussein for invading and attempting to annex Kuwait.

That’s my opinion on the matter.

If you listen to Bush Sr.’s ‘A New World Order’ speech he makes it very clear that he was trying to strengthen international law, which Saddam had broken. Desert Shield/Storm was literally a police action.


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First Aid Kit - It’s a Shame"It's a Shame" by First Aid Kit is available now: smarturl.it Production Company: Slutet är Nära / slutetarnara.se Director: Mats UddProducer: Petra KrigströmExecutive Producer: Alexandros Bakos Lyrics: genius.com Follow First Aid Kit: firstaidkitband.com facebook.com @firstaidkitband instagram.com
Thanos
21 hours, 59 minutes ago
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Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit - American Girl10/13/2017 Encore on night 4 of Ryman residency
Thanos
22 hours, 6 minutes ago
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WALK the MOON - Headphones Get WALK THE MOON's “One Foot” and "Headphones" Instantly When You Pre-Order The New Album 'What If Nothing':iTunes - wtmband.comAmazon - wtmband.comSpotify Pre-Save - wtmband.comGoogle Play - wtmband.comMerch Store - wtmband.com Stream "Headphones" Now:Apple Music - wtmband.comSpotify - wtmband.com ...
Thanos
22 hours, 14 minutes ago
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Nightmare at PDX In all, Cristina was held for 48 hours with the jail population, though she had committed no crime. She was treated poorly, and denied medical treatment when she requested it. She had no money in her jail phone account ...
Thanos
4 days, 10 hours ago
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First-Ever Sex Discrimination Legal Network Is Ready to Defend Women in Trump’s America Shortly after the election, the attorneys and advocates who work at the National Women’s Law Center (NWLC) started having a conversation. It seemed that the incoming Trump administration was likely to move backward on enforcing civil rights, loosening regulations, ...
Birth Control Works
5 days, 8 hours ago
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Meet Rhiannon Giddens, Newly Minted MacArthur ‘Genius’ As a solo artist — and, before that, as a member of the Carolina Chocolate Drops — singer-songwriter Rhiannon Giddens has made a career out of revitalizing and invigorating decades' worth of music reflecting the African-American experience. That's meant ...
Thanos
1 week, 1 day ago
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Lies About Black America Are ‘Central’ to Gun Ownership: A Reporter on What We Get Wrong About Gun Violence Lies that the GOP and Donald Trump promote all day long. “If you look at the neighborhoods where [gun violence] is most clustered,” Beckett said, it’s located in areas with high levels of poverty, low levels of education, and ...
Unshaken Defiance
1 week, 2 days ago
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St. Vincent Performs ‘Los Ageless’ One of Stephen's very favorite singer-songwriters collaborates with three pairs of boots to perform a song off her new album "Masseduction". Subscribe To "The Late Show" Channel HERE: bit.lyFor more content from "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert", click ...
Thanos
1 week, 2 days ago
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi Trailer (Official) Watch the new trailer for Star Wars: The Last Jedi and see it in theaters December 15. Get your tickets now: fandango.com Visit Star Wars at starwars.comSubscribe to Star Wars on YouTube at youtube.comLike Star Wars on Facebook at ...
Thanos
1 week, 2 days ago
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Brazil Branches of US-Based Church Target of Numerous Probes Church Based human trafficking and forced labor -- it's just religious freedom in action.../// When workers made a mistake, such as cutting a frame too short, she says they were screamed at and sometimes even hit to expunge the ...
Thanos
1 week, 2 days ago
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