One Third (?!) of PA High School Science Teachers Believe in Creationism - And Some Teach It

Let’s not ‘cram’ science into our children!
Education • Views: 49,920

Yes, this is America in 2013, where high school science teachers can and do instruct their students in the religious doctrines of late antiquity.

First, a graphic:

Composite of surveys on creationism, from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

That is from a new story out today in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

Is evolution missing link in some Pennsylvania high schools?

Yes, according to that newspaper’s survey, roughly one third (a little over 32%) of PA science teachers believe in creationism. (Note that the total adds up to over 100%, meaning some teachers marked more than one answer.)

Now on to parts of the story:

[…]

“Sometimes students honestly look me in the eye and ask what do I think? I tell them that I personally hold the Bible as the source of truth,” said Joe Sohmer, who teaches chemistry at the Altoona Area High School. The topic arises, he said, when he teaches radiocarbon dating, with that method often concluding archeological finds to be older than 10,000 years, which he says is the Bible-based age of Earth. “I tell them that I don’t think [radiocarbon dating] is as valid as the textbook says it is, noting other scientific problems with the dating method.

“Kids ask all kinds of personal questions and that’s one I don’t shy away from,” he said. “It doesn’t in any way disrupt the educational process. I’m entitled to my beliefs as much as the evolutionist is.”

Mr. Sohmer responded to a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette questionnaire distributed this spring to school teachers statewide, and he agreed to discuss his teaching philosophy. He said school officials are comfortable with his methods.

In this case the teacher is intentionally casting doubts over what nearly all physical scientists agree is solid science, that has been tested and retested time and again, for the purpose of preparing the students to accept what is known to be false: a Young Earth.

Onward:

An Indiana County science teacher responded to the questionnaire more adamantly.

“Most parents and officials do not want evolution ‘crammed’ into their children. They have serious philosophical/religious issues with public schools dictating to their students how to interpret the origin of life,” stated the teacher, who did not respond to a request for an interview. His questionnaire says he teaches creationism for the equivalent of a class period, with five classes devoted to evolution.

“I have been questioned in the past about how I teach evolution principles, and [school officials] are satisfied with my approach,” he said. “My approach is to teach the textbook content of Darwinian evolution but modified to explain that data can be interpreted differently dependent upon one’s world view.”

Yet another teacher accused the Post-Gazette of conducting a witch hunt to identify and punish teachers who believe in creationism.

[…]

This gets to the heart of the problem. The creationists don’t want evolution “crammed” into their children. What is happening is clear - the parents are projecting onto their childrens’ school instruction their own fears that what they hold dear is indeed quite false. The creationists call the burden of knowledge that science gives a “cram”, a sense of being forced to accept something, which they refuse to do no matter how much evidence exists for the truth of an old earth and changing (evolving) life.

Recommend reading the entire Post-Gazette story as it discusses this issue of creationism with more detail than often found in media stories.

Finally, it should be noted that the teaching of creationism in schools is not limited to Pennsylvania and there is no reason to suggest that PA is any worse at this than many other states. In Texas some lawmakers even want to legally protect creationism in colleges. We all know about Bobby Jindal’s explicit endorsement of teaching creationism. Creationists also find creative ways of sneaking into public schools, under the guise of being expert speakers on fossils.

This is America, 2013.

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287 comments

1 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 1:12:44pm

Why are we ignoring Lysenko?

2 Jan Smiddy  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 1:17:27pm

Derp is the new normal.

3 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 1:22:44pm

When did kids start asking stuff like that in school? It never happened when I went to school, even during the six years I went to Catholic school.
I call shenanigans on that teacher.

4 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 1:26:51pm

Also, too, it seems like the creationists like to imply that there are entire courses taught that are nothing but evolution.
It’s been a very long time, but I can honestly say that “evolution” may have been brought up once or twice in biology class, and maybe in an anthropology class, but I really have no specific memory that it ever was mentioned.
And as to the teacher you mention, why on earth would evolution be brought up in a high school chemistry class? My specific memories are what things will blow up if you aren’t careful. (And, yes, we had more than one explosion…just because…)

5 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:13:07pm

Good, this needed to be promoted.

6 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:17:20pm

And we have another dead thread derp drop: littlegreenfootballs.com

7 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:17:31pm

re: #1 Sol Berdinowitz

Why are we ignoring Lysenko?

Because he was a commie.

8 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:25:13pm

re: #4 Backwoods_Sleuth

God, I wish we had one class that solely focused on evolution.

In fact, here’s what I’d love to see us study in high school:

Mathematics
Statistics and probability
Civics
Literature
Composition
Biology (with constant evolution-focus)
Physics (with branching into various sub-disciplines, like chemistry)
Logic and Critical thinking.
World history

Pie in the sky sighted! Firing pipe dream!

9 Kragar  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:26:19pm

No mention of the sky gods, the elder things or spaghetti monster? Where is the outrage?
///

10 Joanne  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:31:06pm

re: #8 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Weren’t logic and critical thinking literally outlawed in Texas?

11 A Mom Anon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:31:10pm

I was raised by total wingnuts in an Amway household. And yet, science was never a problem (until my Mom started listening to Glenn Beck a couple of years ago, but that’s another story…). Why? The way I was taught was that science was a way for us to understand the whole of the universe, to figure out how things work here so we can make the best place for ourselves and make use of the gift God gave all living things when He gave us Earth. Evolution never once was something that was questioned, the science is there, and it also does NOT at all really contradict the Bible. Unless you’re an idiot who twists it to mean whatever weird shit you need it to mean so you can be a victim and/or enforce your beliefs on everyone else. These are people who are so unsure about their beliefs that they have to be reinforced by every single thing around them. Which would be fine if they wouldn’t insist on their kids being uneducated too.

Now that I’m an adult, I’m an agnostic and I’m not sure I buy into my parents’ explanation of science and God, but I am grateful they always encouraged me to read, explore, collect fossils and shells,learn the latin names for plants, to collect samples for the microscope or to learn about space.

12 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:36:12pm

re: #8 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

God, I wish we had one class that solely focused on evolution.

In fact, here’s what I’d love to see us study in high school:

Mathematics
Statistics and probability
Civics
Literature
Composition
Biology (with constant evolution-focus)
Physics (with branching into various sub-disciplines, like chemistry)
Logic and Critical thinking.
World history

Pie in the sky sighted! Firing pipe dream!

I actually had all of the classes you listed when I was in high school back in the late ’60s (civics for two years!)
As a senior, I was one of about 10 (and the only female) in an invitation-only class called “Senior Seminar”, which was a class for science geeks where we each selected specific science topics to research and then prepare lesson plans, hand-out materials and projects for week-long lectures that we taught to our fellow seminar classmates. Two of my topics were basics of nuclear physics (I still have the textbook I used) and binary language (I built a very basic computing machine using ball bearings to start things off).
And this at a very small rural SW Ohio public school. My graduating class was the first one to have more than 100 graduates (I think we had 103 grads).

13 BigPapa  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:45:38pm

Want to get pissed off and depressed? Watch Split Estate.

14 kerFuFFler  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:47:34pm

The only reference to religious beliefs I think would be allowable in a biology class would be to distinguish between the methodology of science, based on empirical evidence and rational inquiry as opposed to scriptural interpretation. I actually think it might diffuse things if teachers explicitly told students that they are free to believe what they want, but that it is important that they understand the evidence of evolution and why scientists have drawn the conclusions they have so far. But students must also have it emphasized that there has been no body of physical evidence supporting creationism. They may still choose to believe in a young earth just as they could choose to believe that the world was created last week with an appearance of age and all our memories intact. I think that is an effective contrast between a natural interpretation of the world and a magical one.

And of course people are also free to believe that God presided over an evolutionary process——there just has been no scientifically convincing evidence that is what has occurred.

Many creationists are offended that evolutionary theory offers atheists a plausible account of the world we live in and they can’t stand that. Even though many Christians believe in evolution, the fact that one can imagine a world without their style creator-god is anathema to them.

15 A Mom Anon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:48:10pm

re: #12 Backwoods_Sleuth

I graduated in the late 70’s we had all that stuff in school too. I went to school in Columbus,Ohio. My younger siblings wouldn’t be so lucky, the cuts to all that stuff began around 1980. My high school was set up like a college kind of. You got a catalog in the 8th grade with all the classes and descriptions listed and you had to pick a major and a minor. There was no standardized testing(beyond the Iowa Basic Skills test),your grades and ability to graduate depended solely on your class grades and your finals. We also had a full auto shop that also taught welding and other industrial type vocational stuff. I really wish no one had messed with all this. Public schools turned out the people who put us on the moon, made computers common place and invented the amazing medical technology we have now. It wasn’t broken, why the hell did they try to “fix” it?

16 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:56:36pm

I don’t remember this ever being an issue when I was a kid. I took an awful lot of science classes from elementary school through graduate school and creationism never came up. It was always just straight science no matter the school or the teacher.

And I went to school in Texas for goodness sake. WTF has happened?

17 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:57:56pm

re: #16 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don’t remember this ever being an issue when I was a kid. I took an awful lot of science classes from elementary school through graduate school and creationism never came up. It was always just straight science no matter the school or the teacher.

And I went to school in Texas for goodness sake. WTF has happened?

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say the Southern Strategy.

18 kerFuFFler  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 2:59:02pm

re: #15 A Mom Anon

“Public schools turned out the people who put us on the moon, made computers common place and invented the amazing medical technology we have now. It wasn’t broken, why the hell did they try to “fix” it?”

Which generation of fixes are you referring to, things that happened in the 80’s and 90’s, or the crap that is going on now?

If you are talking about recent talk of school failure and new fixes, I suspect that demographic changes have burdened some districts beyond belief, and that some kind of fix is necessary. There are many more students who lack proficiency in English, more students who come from desperately poor and unstable households, and the simple fact is that too many of the terribly disadvantaged end up isolated in districts with very little tax base. Unfortunately, “No Child Left Behind” was no solution to this, and neither are the privatized charter schools that are using tax-payer money with little accountability or supervision.

19 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:01:22pm

re: #15 A Mom Anon


yes, my high school had a catalog of classes as well. As small as my school district was (and still is) it still amazes me the range of classes on offer.

20 allegro  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:03:24pm

re: #16 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don’t remember this ever being an issue when I was a kid. I took an awful lot of science classes from elementary school through graduate school and creationism never came up. It was always just straight science no matter the school or the teacher.

And I went to school in Texas for goodness sake. WTF has happened?

Reagan’s embrace of the religious right. This was never an issue before the 1980s until the fundies came to prominence.

21 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:03:47pm

I just ordered a T-shirt of someone else’s design.

How is your day?

22 calochortus  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:07:00pm

Just a drive-by to say I’m not in the least surprised that many PA science teachers are creationists. 20 years or so ago when my daughter was in middle school in PA, the science teacher was a creationist. He didn’t teach it in class, but he also didn’t noticeably teach evolution.

23 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:08:58pm

re: #21 FemNaziBitch

I just ordered a T-shirt of someone else’s design.

How is your day?

A pretty good one. Took a long walk, took pictures, and have been organizing photos this afternoon. Lovely weather around here as well.

I iz a semi-colon!

24 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:09:59pm

re: #23 Feline Fearless Leader

too cute!

I got to take some nice pictures yesterday, unfortunately, I left the SD card out of my camera and had to resort to the iPhone. I haven’t downloaded them yet, so I don’t know how bad they are.

25 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:10:19pm

re: #21 FemNaziBitch

I just ordered a T-shirt of someone else’s design.

How is your day?

You’re gonna love this billboard in a Baja Alabama town:

“Women were born to serve.”

wtvy.com

26 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:12:48pm

Hubby has been watching this show about the prison system which highlights certain inmates. The viewer get’s an idea of what happens to people to cause them to resort to crime.

My response is “Yes, dear, this is why we need to spend more on PREVENTION.”

Sadly, a big part of this is administered thru the school system and they don’t have the resources to do it adequately AND educate.

Which is more important, keeping kids out of the justice system or teaching them to read?

Personally, I’d think the two go hand-in-hand, but if we have to fight the creationists and others who want to impose morality on every aspect of life—we are going to lose in every aspect.

27 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:13:04pm

re: #21 FemNaziBitch

I just ordered a T-shirt of someone else’s design.

How is your day?

I continue to go through magazines to pull out the stuff to save and jump the rest in the recycling bin. The cats are watching me suspiciously.

28 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:13:20pm

re: #24 FemNaziBitch

too cute!

I got to take some nice pictures yesterday, unfortunately, I left the SD card out of my camera and had to resort to the iPhone. I haven’t downloaded them yet, so I don’t know how bad they are.

Mine are currently iPhone. Cropped and some minor editing with Paint.Net

Image: Ep_Church.jpg

Society Hill Synagogue

29 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:15:27pm

re: #25 Decatur Deb

You’re gonna love this billboard in a Baja Alabama town:

“Women were born to serve.”

wtvy.com

hmmm, Tennis was one of the first sports a women could play professionally and if they won, make a living wage. IN a way the wording of the billboard is sweet irony.

30 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:16:17pm

re: #28 Feline Fearless Leader

I have been to Society Hill Synagogue for several events. A very nice place.

31 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:16:56pm

re: #29 FemNaziBitch

hmmm, Tennis was one of the first sports a women could play professionally and if they won, make a living wage. IN a way the wording of the billboard is sweet irony.

Letters to the editor of the local paper are a hoot. Lots of missing the point.

32 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:17:09pm

re: #21 FemNaziBitch

I just ordered a T-shirt of someone else’s design.

How is your day?

in between brief showers, we’ve been planting stuff.
Found a really nice narcissus growing in a long-abandoned decades old garden. Rescued it and moved it to the front flower garden.

narcissus

33 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:17:55pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Letters to the editor of the local paper are a hoot. Lots of missing the point.

The sign is too clever for them.

34 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:19:04pm

re: #30 PhillyPretzel

I have been to Society Hill Synagogue for several events. A very nice place.

Lots of interesting buildings in that general area (Old Town and Society Hill in Philly.) Design, stonework, and sometimes just location in terms of surroundings.

Saw two old “Corn Exchange” buildings for instance.

Image: Corn_Exchange.jpg

Image: Corn_Exchange_Bank.jpg

35 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:19:48pm

re: #11 A Mom Anon

When I was a kid we didn’t get any of this Biblical absolutist stuff either. I went to Catholic schools and there was nothing but respect for science and no hint of creationism from any of my teachers.

For the past 40-50 years, the religious right has been engaged in a very deliberate effort to build an alternate society within America based on fundamentalist religion, through homeschooling and other separatist tactics.

If it seems like America has moved backwards in this area, it has. The reactionaries gave up on trying to get mainstream society to join them, so they’re just creating their own mainstream society based on fantasy. The problem comes when these thoroughly indoctrinated people have to interact with the real world - and we can see the results. Politicians like Paul Broun and Louie Gohmert and James Inhofe are products of this reactionary world view.

It’s a very bad trend.

36 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:20:17pm

re: #33 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

The sign is too clever for them.

I believe the first few days, the campaign hid the punchline.

37 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:20:37pm

Here is one I did last week.

Food Pr0n, can you guess what it is?

38 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:21:25pm

re: #34 Feline Fearless Leader

Lots of interesting buildings in that general area (Old Town and Society Hill in Philly.) Design, stonework, and sometimes just location in terms of surroundings.

Saw two old “Corn Exchange” buildings for instance.

Image: Corn_Exchange.jpg

Image: Corn_Exchange_Bank.jpg

I love architecture

39 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:21:55pm

re: #35 Charles Johnson

Yup. My Bio teacher was a Franciscan priest—total Watson & Crick (and Mendel) fanboy.

40 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:21:57pm

re: #35 Charles Johnson

When I was a kid we didn’t get any of this Biblical absolutist stuff either. I went to Catholic schools and there was nothing but respect for science and no hint of creationism from any of my teachers.

For the past 40-50 years, the religious right has been engaged in a very deliberate effort to build an alternate society within America based on fundamentalist religion, through homeschooling and other separatist tactics.

If it seems like America has moved backwards in this area, it has. The reactionaries gave up on trying to get mainstream society to join them, so they’re just creating their own mainstream society based on fantasy. The problem comes when these thoroughly indoctrinated people have to interact with the real world - and we can see the results. Politicians like Paul Broun an Louie Gohmert and James Inhofe are products of this reactionary world view.

It’s a very bad trend.

China and Korea are quite thankful for the trend I’ll bet.

41 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:22:01pm

re: #37 FemNaziBitch

Here is one I did last week.

Food Pr0n, can you guess what it is?

I eated it.

42 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:22:28pm

re: #41 Varek Raith

I eated it.

Did you know what you ate?

43 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:22:54pm
44 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:23:01pm

When I started to learn how thoroughly the creationist mind-rot had taken over the conservative world, that was one of the major points at which I parted ways with them.

There used to be some extremely rabid creationists who were regular commenters here. When I began posting my opinions about creationism, some of those people went unbelievably nuts.

45 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:23:16pm

re: #42 FemNaziBitch

Did you know what you ate?

Corn husk?

46 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:23:33pm

re: #35 Charles Johnson

When I was a kid we didn’t get any of this Biblical absolutist stuff either. I went to Catholic schools and there was nothing but respect for science and no hint of creationism from any of my teachers.

For the past 40-50 years, the religious right has been engaged in a very deliberate effort to build an alternate society within America based on fundamentalist religion, through homeschooling and other separatist tactics.

If it seems like America has moved backwards in this area, it has. The reactionaries gave up on trying to get mainstream society to join them, so they’re just creating their own mainstream society based on fantasy. The problem comes when these thoroughly indoctrinated people have to interact with the real world - and we can see the results. Politicians like Paul Broun an Louie Gohmert and James Inhofe are products of this reactionary world view.

It’s a very bad trend.

And it’s unlikely there will be a another “Sputnik Moment” soon that will scare the political structure into feeling the need to tamp things down and concentrate on science and science education and research again.

The Chinese launching some sort of space mission might cause a bit of a scare, but I doubt that would do much beyond triggering a lot of yelling about needing to increase defense spending and perhaps toss a few extra nickles to NASA.

47 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:23:56pm

re: #45 Varek Raith

Corn husk?

Hard candy.

48 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:24:25pm

Eugenie Scott on Science, evolution, religion, and philosopy

49 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:24:54pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

When I started to learn how thoroughly the creationist mind-rot had taken over the conservative world, that was one of the major points at which I parted ways with them.

There used to be some extremely rabid creationists who were regular commenters here. When I began posting my opinions about creationism, some of those people went unbelievably nuts.

I remember that era of LGF.

50 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:25:04pm

re: #45 Varek Raith

Corn husk?

You win!

51 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:25:41pm

Remember this?

Only Six Percent Of Scientists Are Republicans: Pew Poll

Only six percent of America’s scientists identify themselves as Republicans; fifty-five percent call themselves Democrats. By comparison, 23 percent of the overall public considers itself Republican, while 35 percent say they’re Democrats.

The ideological discrepancies were similar. Nine percent of scientists said they were “conservative” while 52 percent described themselves as “liberal,” and 14 percent “very liberal.” The corresponding figures for the general public were 37, 20 and 5 percent.

52 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:26:00pm

re: #45 Varek Raith

Corn husk?

that was my guess…now I’m askeert to know what it really might be…

53 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:26:28pm

re: #51 Shiplord Kirel

Remember this?

Only Six Percent Of Scientists Are Republicans: Pew Poll

I seem to recall something about reality and a liberal bias…

54 A Mom Anon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:26:56pm

re: #18 kerFuFFler

I meant all of it. It has been a slow but steady erosion of the public school system and to me it’s really heartbreaking.

55 blueraven  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:27:03pm

re: #50 FemNaziBitch

You win!

Varek always wins everything! *pout*

56 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:27:33pm

re: #55 blueraven

Varek always wins everything! *pout*

*Buys lotto ticket*

57 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:27:51pm

re: #50 FemNaziBitch

You win!

whew! I haz a huge relief!

58 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:28:06pm

a little while back a Lizard suggested this book. I really enjoyed it. I’m not sure about all the conclusions of the author, but will tell you it made me look at the idea of the nasty side of morality and how it is totally ingrained in our society.

Strange for an economic tome, but the author is controversial.

59 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:28:08pm

re: #38 FemNaziBitch

I love architecture

Image: Lonely_Lion.jpg

60 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:29:19pm

Next Picture quiz . .

What’s this?

61 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:29:52pm

re: #60 FemNaziBitch

Next Picture quiz . .

What’s this?

A badly burned countertop.

62 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:30:55pm

re: #61 klys

A badly burned countertop.

No

I know, I take strange pictures.

63 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:30:57pm

re: #60 FemNaziBitch

Next Picture quiz . .

What’s this?

Paint spray floor where discs or cylinders are painted.

64 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:30:57pm

re: #59 Feline Fearless Leader

Image: Lonely_Lion.jpg

Needs moar xenomorph.

65 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:30:58pm

re: #60 FemNaziBitch

a backer board for spray painted circles? I honestly have no idea.

66 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:31:36pm

re: #62 FemNaziBitch

No

I know, I take strange pictures.

Oh, I figured I was wrong. But that’s what popped into my head. :)

67 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:31:40pm

re: #58 FemNaziBitch

a little while back a Lizard suggested this book. I really enjoyed it. I’m not sure about all the conclusions of the author, but will tell you it made me look at the idea of the nasty side of morality and how it is totally ingrained in our society.

Strange for an economic tome, but the author is controversial.

There is a hypothesis that tracking debt, as in ‘I did you a favour, so you owe me,’ within a group contributed to our large brains.

68 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:31:45pm

re: #62 FemNaziBitch

No

I know, I take strange pictures.

The landing engine configuration of a Guild Saucer?
:P

69 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:31:47pm

In case you didn’t already know, Detroit is cursed.

70 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:32:24pm

re: #60 FemNaziBitch

Next Picture quiz . .

What’s this?

you were painting round objects on a concrete floor.

71 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:32:27pm

Why Conservatives Turned Against Science

It was not always this way. In the 1968 election, Richard Nixon won the votes of 31 percent of physicists, 42 percent of biologists, 52 percent of geologists, and 62 percent of agricultural scientists (compared with 43.4 percent of the popular vote). While these data do not include party affiliation, they suggest that the scientific community of the late 1960s was much more evenly divided between the two major parties than it is now, and, with the exception of physicists, slightly more conservative than the American voting public at large.

These figures absolutely floored me when I first saw them a few months ago. 52% of geologists voted Republican in 1968. Today, you probably couldn’t find 52 geologists in the whole country who would vote Republican, at least not research geologists. The GOP’s sell-out to creationist superstition is the reason.

72 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:32:55pm

re: #63 Decatur Deb

Paint spray floor where discs or cylinders are painted.

re: #68 Varek Raith

The landing engine configuration of a Guild Saucer?
:P

Close, it is the concrete floor of a room in which Bourbon barrels are constructed. Hubby took me on a tour of a distillery in Ky.

73 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:33:02pm

re: #69 FemNaziBitch

In case you didn’t already know, Detroit is cursed.

Well, at least they had proper zoning laws…

74 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:33:28pm

re: #67 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

There is a hypothesis that tracking debt, as in ‘I did you a favour, so you owe me,’ within a group contributed to our large brains.

Predators must weigh a lot of variables in order to eat.

75 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:33:29pm

re: #72 FemNaziBitch

re: #68 Varek Raith

Close, it is the concrete floor of a room in which Bourbon barrels are constructed. Hubby took me on a tour of a distillery in Ky.

So the burning was correct! Hah!

76 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:34:17pm

re: #72 FemNaziBitch

re: #68 Varek Raith

Close, it is the concrete floor of a room in which Bourbon barrels are constructed. Hubby took me on a tour of a distillery in Ky.

Ah. Bluegrass Cooperage? My industrial safety class toured it in the 70s.

77 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:35:35pm

Only in Texas will they let you build a school, nursing home and residential areas a stone’s throw from a fertilizer plant. :/

78 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:36:11pm

re: #64 Varek Raith

Needs moar xenomorph.

How about this at your door?

LET ME IN!

79 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:36:59pm

re: #78 Feline Fearless Leader

How about this at your door?

LET ME IN!

I love that there’s a collar on it.

80 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:38:23pm

re: #30 PhillyPretzel

I have been to Society Hill Synagogue for several events. A very nice place.

The sign over the entry is Yiddish instead of Hebrew. It says “The Great Romanian Synagogue”

81 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:38:33pm

re: #74 FemNaziBitch

Predators must weigh a lot of variables in order to eat.

Might apply more for omnivores since they have to remember a wide variety of what is safe to eat and not eat. Plus eventually adding on information regarding preparation that allows use of what would otherwise be marginal food sources.

82 Cheechako  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:38:34pm

re: #79 klys

I love that there’s a collar on it.

Anti-theft device.

83 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:39:03pm

re: #80 Vicious Babushka

I am not surprised.

85 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:39:18pm

re: #79 klys

I love that there’s a collar on it.

Yep. And a heavy chain. Probably mainly to keep someone from stealing it.

:p

86 122 Year Old Obama  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:39:42pm

re: #84 Vicious Babushka

Delicious!

87 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:39:52pm

re: #85 Feline Fearless Leader

Yep. And a heavy chain. Probably mainly to keep someone from stealing it.

:p

I would totally do that.

88 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:41:05pm
89 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:41:13pm

And one more “what the heck is that?” photo. ;)

Grumman Greenhouse

90 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:41:37pm

re: #84 Vicious Babushka

They look beautiful and I am sure they taste as good as they look.

91 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:41:44pm

re: #88 klys

Another gratuitous photo.

Reminds me of Old Crow Medicine Show.

:D

92 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:42:12pm

re: #91 Feline Fearless Leader

Reminds me of Old Crow Medicine Show.

:D

It is actually in Takayama, Japan.

93 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:43:09pm

re: #92 klys

It is actually in Takayama, Japan.

They’re importing and stockpiling wagon wheels???

;)

94 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:43:17pm

re: #48 Randall Gross

Eugenie Scott on Science, evolution, religion, and philosopy

[Embedded content]

Just finished watching it. Excellent, thanks.

95 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:44:20pm

re: #93 Feline Fearless Leader

They’re importing and stockpiling wagon wheels???

;)

They have a fascinating biannual festival where they have these huge floats (on wheels) that are paraded through the town.

96 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:44:43pm

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Ah. Bluegrass Cooperage? My industrial safety class toured it in the 70s.

No, Buffalo Trace

97 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:45:24pm

re: #94 CuriousLurker

Just finished watching it. Excellent, thanks.

Chris Mooney’s _The Republican War on Science_ covers this area as well. Though it is at this point a fair number of years old.

98 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:46:09pm

re: #81 Feline Fearless Leader

Might apply more for omnivores since they have to remember a wide variety of what is safe to eat and not eat. Plus eventually adding on information regarding preparation that allows use of what would otherwise be marginal food sources.

hmmm, tracking, waiting, calculating activities of prey —uses higher brain functions.

99 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:46:51pm

re: #98 FemNaziBitch

hmmm, tracking, waiting, calculating activities of prey —uses higher brain functions.

Sounds about what a cat-brain deals with. :)

100 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:48:57pm

re: #99 Feline Fearless Leader

Sounds about what a cat-brain deals with. :)

Yeah, I’ve pondered that before. I’m not sure there is any other predator that comes close to Humans in that skill. They might be better at it.

101 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:49:58pm

re: #95 klys

They have a fascinating biannual festival where they have these huge floats (on wheels) that are paraded through the town.

Ah. Good. Playing their part in keeping the lunar wolf from devouring the sun.

Or maybe amusing Varek enough to prevent a planet buster from being dropped.

102 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:50:52pm

re: #100 FemNaziBitch

Yeah, I’ve pondered that before. I’m not sure there is any other predator that comes close to Humans in that skill. They might be better at it.

The most successful large predators are African Wild Dogs, by a huge margin. 80% of their hunts end in kills.

en.wikipedia.org

The most successful mammalian predators are shrews, who are little constant murder-machines.

103 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:52:39pm

re: #100 FemNaziBitch

Yeah, I’ve pondered that before. I’m not sure there is any other predator that comes close to Humans in that skill. They might be better at it.

Or maybe just different approaches to the same goal. And one or the other may be marginally better in different environments and conditions over the long haul.

You also have to add in the cat-brain decision to enslave the omnivores for their own comfort in exchange for supposedly protecting the graneries. Which the overlords allowed the construction of in the first place since they proved an excellent mouse-stalking arena for the overlords to attend.

104 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:52:51pm

re: #74 FemNaziBitch

Predators must weigh a lot of variables in order to eat.

Social animals like humans and chimps have to track everybody in the group, what they owe to each and what each owes to them as well as genetic relationships and power relationships.

105 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:53:44pm

re: #96 FemNaziBitch

No, Buffalo Trace

I live in the Buffalo Trace area.
Perhaps explains much about my thinking process…

106 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:54:45pm

One of the world’s most successful predators. Fear him:

Image: 220px-Rhynchocyon_petersi_one.JPG

107 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:55:09pm

re: #102 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

The most successful large predators are African Wild Dogs, by a huge margin. 80% of their hunts end in kills.

en.wikipedia.org

The most successful mammalian predators are shrews, who are little constant murder-machines.

So my brother was being biologically correct when he called his wife a shrew after she wolfed down all that ice cream?

(I kid.)

108 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:57:23pm

re: #48 Randall Gross

Eugenie Scott on Science, evolution, religion, and philosopy

[Embedded content]

I LOVED this. Sadly, she is speaking in terms to sophisticated for many people.

109 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 3:59:50pm

re: #102 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

The most successful large predators are African Wild Dogs, by a huge margin. 80% of their hunts end in kills.

en.wikipedia.org

The most successful mammalian predators are shrews, who are little constant murder-machines.

There is always the honey badger. …

:0

110 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:02:37pm

re: #105 Backwoods_Sleuth

I live in the Buffalo Trace area.
Perhaps explains much about my thinking process…

Lived near there in the late 60s—nr I65 at the Bullit Co. line.

111 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:02:41pm

re: #109 FemNaziBitch

There is always the honey badger. …

:0

Another in a long series of life and death struggles.

112 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:03:45pm

re: #110 Decatur Deb

Lived near there in the late 60s—nr I65 at the Bullit Co. line.

Part of the original Buffalo Trace runs through my farm.

ETA: but my part is in the far NE part of KY…
It’s everywhere!!!!

113 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:07:34pm

re: #112 Backwoods_Sleuth

Part of the original Buffalo Trace runs through my farm

Googling the distillery makes it a different buffalo trace from mine, that one’s near Frankfort. Bullit Road was also built along a buffalo path.

114 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:10:40pm

re: #113 Decatur Deb

Googling the distillery makes it a different Buffalo trace from mine, that one’s near Frankfort. Bullit Road was also built along a buffalo path.

those damned buffalo just refused to recognize suggested guidelines.
In any event, my area is more famous for most excellent moonshine. Much better than that weak tea taxed stuff…

115 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:13:07pm

One more

Then I have to leave for awhile.

bbl

116 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:14:10pm

re: #115 FemNaziBitch

One more

Then I have to leave for awhile.

bbl

Is that Loki when he was still a pup?
;)

117 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:14:21pm

re: #114 Backwoods_Sleuth

those damned buffalo just refused to recognize suggested guidelines.
In any event, my area is more famous for most excellent moonshine. Much better than that weak tea taxed stuff…

Jim Beam’s bonded warehouses were near us—the 1974 Good Friday tornadoes tore several of them apart and spread barrels for several miles through the countryside.

118 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:20:35pm

re: #117 Decatur Deb

Jim Beam’s bonded warehouses were near us—the 1973 Good Friday tornadoes tore several of them apart and spread barrels for several miles through the countryside.

That probably wasn’t too good for the soil.

119 SidewaysQuark  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:23:06pm

re: #4 Backwoods_Sleuth

Also, too, it seems like the creationists like to imply that there are entire courses taught that are nothing but evolution.
It’s been a very long time, but I can honestly say that “evolution” may have been brought up once or twice in biology class, and maybe in an anthropology class, but I really have no specific memory that it ever was mentioned. And as to the teacher you mention, why on earth would evolution be brought up in a high school chemistry class? My specific memories are what things will blow up if you aren’t careful. (And, yes, we had more than one explosion…just because…)

Then you had a very poorly taught biology class. Sounds like your teacher was part of the problem.

120 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:23:18pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

That probably wasn’t too good for the soil.

One million gallons were lost just from one warehouse:

turninghousefurniture.com

121 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:23:25pm

re: #13 BigPapa

Sell off your mineral rights while maintaining all the liability for when the well casings fail. Pass the liability on to your children!!

122 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:28:41pm

re: #97 Feline Fearless Leader

Chris Mooney’s _The Republican War on Science_ covers this area as well. Though it is at this point a fair number of years old.

I’ve never understood all the screeching and finger-pointing over the science/religion thing. Religion is based on faith/belief, science on provable facts & theories based on accepted knowledge about the natural world.

If I’m ill, need to know what the weather’s going to be tomorrow, how long I can safely keep a certain type of food, which type of plants will grow best in NJ, etc. then I turn to science, I don’t consult my local imam or look to the Qur’an for answers. Likewise, if I’m having some spiritual crisis I don’t run to my doctor’s office seeking a cure.

Additionally, scientific methods are agreed upon no matter which scientist you talk to anywhere in the world, AFAIK—not so with religion.

Given all of the above, I don’t see why some people view religion & science as mutually exclusive and proceed to bash each other over the head about which one is “right”. They serve two completely different purposes, and trying to use one to prove/disprove the other is a fool’s errand, IMO.

123 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:29:17pm

re: #119 SidewaysQuark

Then you had a very poorly taught biology class. Sounds like your teacher was part of the problem.

why? is evolution that important to teaching high school biology 101?
Mostly it was just frog and worm guts.

124 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:31:49pm

re: #16 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don’t remember this ever being an issue when I was a kid. I took an awful lot of science classes from elementary school through graduate school and creationism never came up. It was always just straight science no matter the school or the teacher.

And I went to school in Texas for goodness sake. WTF has happened?

Saint Reagan gave some legitimacy to religion-in-politics. Over the last one or so decades, millions of voters lost their retirements, savings, homes and jobs to forces beyond their control. They are a significant base that conspiracy promoters like Alex Jones and Glen Beck draw support from.

Many of those same millions are being exploited by self-promoting charlatans such as David Barton and Ken Ham (#1&2 of 4 pictured speakers on this flier, PDF file). Barton is a former leader of the GOP in Texas, and CEO of Wallbuilders. Ham established the Creationist Museum —which seems to be basically an amusement park franchise that caters to anti-science Young-Earth Creationists.

Many GOP politicians and presidential candidates (just shoot me, Huckabee) have compromised themselves to hell and back for support from the likes of Barton, Ham, AIG, etc.

Barton reveals his true agenda here; simply put, he favors theocracy:
David Barton Advocates Seven Mountains Dominionism

Barton: There’s five areas that you have to be able to influence and control if you are going to take a culture and that’s media, business, government, education, and pulpit[snip]

There’s also a corroborating mp3 file (Barton speaking) there which you can download.

125 Kragar  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:32:37pm

re: #123 Backwoods_Sleuth

why? is evolution that important to teaching high school biology 101?
Mostly it was just frog and worm guts.

Because its a basic scientific theory which is the foundation for modern biological sciences?

126 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:32:38pm

re: #96 FemNaziBitch

Polished off a bottle of that last week. Being bad.

127 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:38:41pm

re: #124 abolitionist

Actually, Ronald Reagan wasn’t all that religious. It’s true he included religious social conservatives in his coalition, but that’s because he had to. The South (except for Georgia) was very much ‘in play’ in 1980, most southern states having gone for Jimmy Carter 4 years before. In order to win the presidency, Ronald Reagan had to pry the evangelical vote away from Carter; otherwise he didn’t have a chance.

128 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:39:11pm

re: #125 Kragar

Because its a basic scientific theory which is the foundation for modern biological sciences?

well, as I said, evolution may have been mentioned but I really don’t recall it specifically.
I do remember the frog and worm guts in high school.
Maybe I don’t remember evolution specifically in public high school biology class because I already learned about evolution in my Catholic grade school science classes, so any overt mention of evolution in later classes would have been along the lines of “ok, I already know about that…let’s talk about guts…”

129 wheat-dogghazi  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:45:39pm

re: #110 Decatur Deb

Lived near there in the late 60s—nr I65 at the Bullit Co. line.

Small world. I lived in Lebanon Junction for almost 15 years beginning in 1992.

130 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:47:17pm

DERP


How about they all come over and have sex with YOU, Bryan?

131 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:47:34pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

In order to win the presidency, Ronald Reagan had to pry the evangelical vote away from Carter; otherwise he didn’t have a chance.

And that makes all the misogynistic, bigoted, anti-science garbage the religious right has been foisting upon the US ever since so totally worth it 9_9

132 wheat-dogghazi  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:47:57pm

re: #130 Vicious Babushka

DERP


How about they all come over and have sex with YOU, Bryan?

How can you be sure they haven’t?

133 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:48:56pm

re: #132 wheat-dogghazi

How can you be sure they haven’t?

Because they have better taste than that.

134 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:49:00pm

re: #130 Vicious Babushka

Bryan Fischer is exactly the kind of chicken the reagan revolution brought home to roost.

135 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:50:15pm

re: #134 Interesting Times

Bryan Fischer is exactly the kind of chicken the reagan revolution brought home to roost.

OK, this should be interesting,

How do you figure that?

136 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:50:54pm

Sometimes I read some of these magazines and wonder who the hell buys some of this crap.

An all-season sled with ice packs on the bottom so you can go sledding on grass? Really? For $90?

137 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:51:05pm

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

Are you playing dumb? How can you not see the answer given what we’ve just been talking about? o_O

138 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:53:48pm

re: #130 Vicious Babushka

DERP


How about they all come over and have sex with YOU, Bryan?

Because, as we all know, HIV and AIDS do not exist in the heterosexual population.

////

139 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:55:31pm

re: #137 Interesting Times

Are you playing dumb? How can you not see the answer given what we’ve just been talking about? o_O

No, you really do need to sketch how you think Ronald Reagan lead to Bryan Fischer. I hear that said often, but it isn’t really explained how such a thing happened. Reagan never favored Fischer’s extremist policies, as has been pointed out here before. Fischer’s presented vision of REAGAN!!1 bears little resemblance to the actual Ronald W. Reagan.

140 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:56:47pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

Because, as we all know, HIV and AIDS do not exist in the heterosexual population.

////

Stop trying to confuse people with facts!

//

141 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 4:58:03pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

Because, as we all know, HIV and AIDS do not exist in the heterosexual population.

By fantastic coincidence…

Reagan’s AIDS Legacy / Silence equals death

Following discovery of the first cases in 1981, it soon became clear a national health crisis was developing. But President Reagan’s response was “halting and ineffective,” according to his biographer Lou Cannon. Those infected initially with this mysterious disease — all gay men — found themselves targeted with an unprecedented level of mean-spirited hostility.

A significant source of Reagan’s support came from the newly identified religious right and the Moral Majority, a political-action group founded by the Rev. Jerry Falwell. AIDS became the tool, and gay men the target, for the politics of fear, hate and discrimination. Falwell said “AIDS is the wrath of God upon homosexuals.” Reagan’s communications director Pat Buchanan argued that AIDS is “nature’s revenge on gay men.”

Reagan could have chosen to end the homophobic rhetoric that flowed from so many in his administration. Dr. C. Everett Koop, Reagan’s surgeon general, has said that because of “intradepartmental politics” he was cut out of all AIDS discussions for the first five years of the Reagan administration. The reason, he explained, was “because transmission of AIDS was understood to be primarily in the homosexual population and in those who abused intravenous drugs.” The president’s advisers, Koop said, “took the stand, ‘They are only getting what they justly deserve.’ “

142 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:00:32pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Actually, Ronald Reagan wasn’t all that religious. It’s true he included religious social conservatives in his coalition, but that’s because he had to. The South (except for Georgia) was very much ‘in play’ in 1980, most southern states having gone for Jimmy Carter 4 years before. In order to win the presidency, Ronald Reagan had to pry the evangelical vote away from Carter; otherwise he didn’t have a chance.

He only “had to” because it was the only way he could get elected that year. The GOP has been paying for that momentary victory ever since,

143 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:00:51pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, you really do need to sketch how you think Ronald Reagan lead to Bryan Fischer..

Read this. The bigoted bile spewed by Reagan’s own advisors is virtually identical to the bile spewed by Bryan Fischer now. Reagan pandered to, enabled, and created these monsters.

144 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:02:19pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, you really do need to sketch how you think Ronald Reagan lead to Bryan Fischer. I hear that said often, but it isn’t really explained how such a thing happened. Reagan never favored Fischer’s extremist policies, as has been pointed out here before. Fischer’s presented vision of REAGAN!!1 bears little resemblance to the actual Ronald W. Reagan.

The fact that Reagan gave the religious right a favorit able nod but then did not fully embrace their policies angered them so much they decided the only way to avoid getting played like that again was to take over the GOP thrity years later they more or less have….

145 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:07:10pm

re: #141 Interesting Times

By fantastic coincidence…

Reagan’s AIDS Legacy / Silence equals death

That was one thing Reagan did wrong, though I don’t think Reagan himself thought much about AIDS till he learned Rock Hudson had the disease (Reagan had known Hudson was gay for over 20 years before most people knew). The worm did begin to turn in 1986, but it took time to get the government in a position to mount an effective response. The big medical issue of 1986 for both the Congress and the White House was actually vaccine liability reform, and the need to spend political capital on that reduced the administration’s ability to take action on AIDS.

146 Stanley Sea  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:07:30pm

re: #141 Interesting Times

By fantastic coincidence…

Reagan’s AIDS Legacy / Silence equals death

CHILLING

147 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:07:38pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Are you really in the dark about all the connections between Reagan and the hyperzealous in the religious right?

148 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:08:47pm

re: #96 FemNaziBitch

No, Buffalo Trace

They make a nice cheap Whiskey too - McAfee’s Benchmark. Decent bourbon for a very nice price.

149 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:11:11pm

You guys aren’t reading this data correctly. The top part of the graphic shows that 19.1% of PA high school teachers believe in creationism. That is less than 1/5. Nearly 90% believe in teaching evolution, so clearly the pollster allowed multiple answers as those numbers add up to more than 100%. The second part is a gallup poll of all Americans, and I’m actually pleasantly surprised that only 32% outright reject evolution. Overall 78% total believe in god, but advocates for teaching creationism and intelligent design are on a slight downward trend. So overall, I see these figures as promising, not terrifying.

150 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:12:07pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Reagan had a long history of shameless pandering to the religious right.

151 allegro  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:12:11pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

That was one thing Reagan did wrong, though I don’t think Reagan himself thought much about AIDS till he learned Rock Hudson had the disease (Reagan had known Hudson was gay for over 20 years before most people knew). The worm did begin to turn in 1986, but it took time to get the government in a position to mount an effective response. The big medical issue of 1986 for both the Congress and the White House was actually vaccine liability reform, and the need to spend political capital on that reduced the administration’s ability to take action on AIDS.

Of course, the increasing public pressure as our family and friends were dropping like raindrops around us in shocking numbers had nothing to do with it. For the love of your Christ, DF, wake up.

152 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:12:55pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

The big medical issue of 1986 for both the Congress and the White House was actually vaccine liability reform, and the need to spend political capital on that

…in no way justified stigmatizing, ignoring, and discriminating against AIDS sufferers in order to appease the religious right.

153 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:14:53pm

Correction: The darker gray band in the gallup poll section is the id and creationism advocacy figure. That seems to be hovering around the same area. I still feel that this isn’t showing a rise in creationism though.

154 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:16:18pm

re: #149 Grackle

You guys aren’t reading this data correctly. The top part of the graphic shows that 19.1% of PA high school teachers believe in creationism. That is less than 1/5.

19.1% believe in creationism, 13.3% believe in intelligent design. “Intelligent design” is just a fake science-y sounding name for creationism.

These should not be separate categories, actually. ID is a fraud, and it’s unfortunate that the Post-Gazette helps legitimize the fraud by pretending it’s a separate category from “creationism.”

155 allegro  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:17:43pm

re: #153 Grackle

Correction: I the darker gray band in the gallup poll section is the id and creationism advocacy figure. That seems to be hovering around the same area. I still feel that this isn’t showing a rise in creationism though.

Until well into the 80s, maybe even early 90s, I knew of NO ONE who didn’t fully accept evolution and see creationism as a backward relic of the Snopes trial. It was unthinkable. To see any significant percentage of creationist believers/evolution deniers is still shocking to me and does represent a sea change in beliefs.

156 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:19:44pm

re: #154 Charles Johnson

Well, since the numbers add up to more than 100%, those that believe in creationism could also be the ones that believe in intelligent design. The design of the survey clearly allowed people to choose more than one. It would be nice to see the information to see how much each group overlapped.

157 Political Atheist  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:22:03pm

re: #156 Grackle

Parse and slice all you want. The number is way too high. Science in school. Old testament/Bible lessons are for Sunday school. At church.

158 Kragar  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:22:09pm

Intelligent Design: The belief that humanity was designed to be a warrior race by the Brain Slugs of Vexorg 9, to fight the Fentollian Slime Spider Armada.

159 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:22:10pm

re: #156 Grackle

89 + 13 = 102. And I would guess that not too many of those 89% that believe in evolution would then say they believe in intelligent design. They are opposing ideas (though one is obviously a fraud).

160 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:24:02pm

re: #155 allegro

Until well into the 80s, maybe even early 90s, I knew of NO ONE who didn’t fully accept evolution and see creationism as a backward relic of the Snopes trial.

Strangely enough, I saw a bit of foreshadowing first-hand when I was in middle school (late 80s) - our regular science teacher was unavailable for some reason, and the gym teacher (!) got chosen to substitute. He was an evangelical type, and said, outright, “We didn’t evolve. We were created.” Even back then, I was shocked at this sort of thing being taught in freaking science class.

161 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:26:06pm

I guess what I’m trying to say is that most of that 13.3% are probably the same people from that 19.1% who believe in creationism. Maybe even 100%, but a few creationists didn’t know what intelligent design meant or something.

162 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:26:19pm

re: #159 Grackle

According to the article one teacher “accused the Post-Gazette of conducting a witch hunt to identify and punish teachers who believe in creationism.”
Maybe they were hedging so they could avoid the coming Evolutionist purges.

163 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:26:21pm

On the other hand, the Gallup bar chart says 32% believe God created humans in their present form.

164 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:28:18pm

Couldn’t find a link to the actual Post-Gazette survey results.

165 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:28:38pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

That is correct, but that is for all Americans and not just PA high school science teachers. I’m not commenting just to argue, I’m just trying to make things a little clearer.

166 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:28:53pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

You’re scaring me.

167 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:29:25pm

“The Post-Gazette questionnaire this spring drew 106 responses from science teachers.”

168 Kragar  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:29:44pm

Graham says FBI should confront people who view ‘Islamist’ websites

Explaining that there were warning signs known to various U.S. law enforcement agencies that one of the accused Boston bombers may have been a threat, Graham said the attack was pulled off because of “a failure to share information and missing warning signs — we’re going back to the pre-9/11 stovepiping.”

He added that if someone federal agencies had received tips about “goes on the Internet for the whole world to see, to interact with radical Islamic websites, how do we miss that?”

“So, we’re going to have to up our game,” Graham continued. “When one of these guys goes into the system and then leaves the country, we need to make sure we know where they’re going and interview them. And when somebody in a database like this begins to openly interact with radical Islamist websites, an FBI agent should knock on his door and say, ‘You told us before you wanted to be an Olympic boxer, that you love this country. What the hell is going on here? We’re watching.’”

I’m sure Graham would say the say same thing about Right Wing Militia groups, White Supremacists, Militant anti-abortionists, etc.
/

169 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:30:46pm

re: #165 Grackle

Yeah, it would be nice to have a better idea of how those numbers actually break down, but even if it ends up being about 20-25% instead of 33%, that’s still way too many creationists teaching science.

170 lawhawk  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:32:33pm

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Been AFK for the weekend, but have to say that for all the GOP talk about competitiveness and need to be at the forefront of science, they’ve been behind the push to cram creationism into science classrooms where they simply do not belong as well as cutting funding on basic science.

Basic science (like projects funded through the NSF) may have material benefits down the road, but it advances the pool of knowledge and lets further developments occur.

Here, creationists are introducing their belief system into science classrooms from an early age, and it will have lasting repercussions that harm the long term competitiveness of the states where this is occurring, and diminishes the nation’s science and medical fields years and decades from now.

Instead, the GOP keeps digging.

171 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:33:37pm

re: #169 Charles Johnson

I agree. Also, some of those creationists believe in evolution as the #s for evolution and creationism add up to over 100% as well. That must be very confusing for them.

172 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:35:01pm

re: #171 Grackle

I agree. Also, some of those creationists believe in evolution. That must be very confusing for them.

It’s probably a manifestation of the old

durr hurr, micro-evolution good, macro-evolution bad!

trick.

173 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:37:29pm

re: #171 Grackle

Many people who are full blown adherents of intelligent design also believe in evolution in a very limited fashion, they’ve had to admit that evolution is a fact but they will fight tooth and nail if you tell them that one species could evolve into another type.

So dogs can evolve into other types of dogs, but ancient bovine and carnivore species could not have gone back to sea and evolved into whales, seals etc.

174 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:37:46pm

Someone here (b_sharp maybe?) said the so-called “difference” between micro- and macro-evolution is a false dichotomy and they aren’t even two separate things. So what’s the scientific-yet-still-suitable-for-laypeople explanation for that?

175 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:39:07pm

Anti-evolutionists ask “How could fish go up on land? They would die!”

176 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:40:39pm

re: #174 Interesting Times

They aren’t. A dinosaur isn’t just going to give birth to a bird one day. That’s not evolution at all, that’s magic. Evolution happens slowly. The dinosaur gets more like a bird over many, many generations at a rate that would not be observable if you lived for 1,000 years.

177 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:40:54pm

re: #174 Interesting Times

Someone here (b_sharp maybe?) said the so-called “difference” between micro- and macro-evolution is a false dichotomy and they aren’t even too separate things. So what’s the scientific-yet-still-suitable-for-laypeople explanation for that?

Macro-evolution is what happens when you let micro-evolution run a bit longer.

178 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:42:13pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

No, you really do need to sketch how you think Ronald Reagan lead to Bryan Fischer. I hear that said often, but it isn’t really explained how such a thing happened. Reagan never favored Fischer’s extremist policies, as has been pointed out here before. Fischer’s presented vision of REAGAN!!1 bears little resemblance to the actual Ronald W. Reagan.

Perspectives: Ronald Reagan and the Religious Right
PBS Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly 11 june 2004

The Rise of the “Religious Right”: The Reagan Revolution and the “Moral Majority” (PDF)
Religion in American Politics: A Short History by Frank Lambert 2010

Bill Moyers on the Rise of the Religious Right
Moyers & Company 31 August 2012

Also see the following write-up on a six-part PBS documentary series from the mid-nineties called “With God on Our Side”:

Rise of the Religious Right
New York Times 28 September 1996

179 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:44:20pm

re: #74 FemNaziBitch

Predators must weigh a lot of variables in order to eat.

I once read an SF story predicated on the idea that it was usually predators that evolved sentience in the universe. I enjoyed it a lot.

The Bully and The Crazy Boy

The problem is these predators were very rational creatures, and we humans are not.

180 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:44:25pm

I propose we teach magic too. It’s just another “theory” eh?
/

181 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:45:03pm
182 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:45:17pm

re: #174 Interesting Times

Someone here (b_sharp maybe?) said the so-called “difference” between micro- and macro-evolution is a false dichotomy and they aren’t even too separate things. So what’s the scientific-yet-still-suitable-for-laypeople explanation for that?

I’ve never even understood what they meant by micro vs macro. Do they not believe in speciation but they do believe a species can adapt over time?

183 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:45:52pm

re: #181 Vicious Babushka

Well the smiley sticker makes it legit. Can’t argue with that.

184 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:47:12pm

re: #167 jaunte

“The Post-Gazette questionnaire this spring drew 106 responses from science teachers.”

Is that the sample size for this survey? Yeesh! elc-pa.org

There are 3,264 public schools in the state. Even supposing each school has only one science teacher the sample size is absurdly small. Nothing like using bad science to debunk bad science! lol

185 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:47:38pm

re: #181 Vicious Babushka

snopes.com

Undetermined. Might be this one particular private school that admits to having a creation-based science curriculum.

And as such, ought to be shut down.

186 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:49:41pm

re: #153 Grackle

Correction: The darker gray band in the gallup poll section is the id and creationism advocacy figure. That seems to be hovering around the same area. I still feel that this isn’t showing a rise in creationism though.

ZERO biology/science teachers should believe in Creationism/Intelligent Design.

187 allegro  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:50:07pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Is that the sample size for this survey? Yeesh! elc-pa.org

There are 3,264 public schools in the state. Even supposing each school has only one science teacher the sample size is absurdly small. Nothing like using bad science to debunk bad science! lol

Do you get the difference between a poll sampling and science?

Apparently not.

188 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:50:43pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

You should still be able to get some relevant data with that kind of sample size. It’s not like pollsters are doing 10,000 interviews when they are representing a population of 315,000,000. They really should have released their survey results though. Their graphic is missing some important information.

189 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:50:47pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Berkman and Plutzer’s survey did a little better:
“national survey of more than 900 science teachers, which found 13 percent advocating that Earth was 10,000 years old or younger, as opposed to Earth’s scientifically determined age of 4.54 billion years.”

190 blueraven  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:51:04pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Is that the sample size for this survey? Yeesh! elc-pa.org

There are 3,264 public schools in the state. Even supposing each school has only one science teacher the sample size is absurdly small. Nothing like using bad science to debunk bad science! lol

Not really…when they do national polls for general elections the sample size is generally 1000 or less.

191 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:51:38pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Is that the sample size for this survey? Yeesh! elc-pa.org

There are 3,264 public schools in the state. Even supposing each school has only one science teacher the sample size is absurdly small. Nothing like using bad science to debunk bad science! lol

You don’t understand statistics, Killgore. That’s a 90% confidence of an 8% confidence interval, which isn’t awesome, but it isn’t terrible. It matters a lot more how they picked the people, if it was truly random.

192 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:52:22pm

And they would need 3,000,000 just to get 1% of the population.

193 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:52:33pm

3 dogs washed and blow-dryed.

My work is done for the day.

194 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:53:40pm

re: #187 allegro

Science!
sciencebuddies.org

195 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:53:42pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Yes, it is not an exhaustive survey. There have been previous polling of teachers and science teachers on this subject.

That the Post-Gazette did not call “Intelligent Design” creationism is itself telling, too.

I expect PA teachers to be a bit more creationist than us here on the west coast, or in the north east of the country, so national polling sometimes smoothes over the regional differences.

The reason I went with this story was not about the sample size in the latest Post-Gazette sampling, but rather the explicit responses they received.

196 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:55:05pm

There is some active legislative vandalism going on:

Opponents say academic freedom bills represent a back-door effort to insert religion into the classroom. Introducing intelligent-design science as an alternative theory not only would hinder the acceptance of evolution, but clear the way for teachers to discuss creationism in the classroom more openly.

State Rep. Rick Saccone, R-Elizabeth, attended the final Origins class to announce his support for such a bill. Afterward, he said legislators are being recruited to sponsor the bill.

“All the evidence doesn’t get into the textbooks. This is for people to present evidence from all sides of the argument, not just what’s limited to one side.”

post-gazette.com

197 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:55:05pm

OT, but I just finished a book called Origins of Catastrophe by the now deceased Warren Zimmerman on the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

I have thoughts about it. Am I allowed to do a page as a Book Review?

198 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:55:22pm

re: #174 Interesting Times

Someone here (b_sharp maybe?) said the so-called “difference” between micro- and macro-evolution is a false dichotomy and they aren’t even too separate things. So what’s the scientific-yet-still-suitable-for-laypeople explanation for that?

As an example take a look at North American Cervidae (Deer family.) Mule Deer can sexually reproduce with White Tail deer, creating a hybrid. Same with Elk and Moose. Basically, as you go up in size neighboring species can produce hybrid offspring but past a certain level of evolutionary distance (and concomitant disparity in adult size) even hybrid reproduction becomes impossible. Hence even using artificial insemination, mule deer and moose cannot create viable offspring.

199 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:55:48pm

re: #194 Killgore Trout

Science!
sciencebuddies.org

It’s awesome that you quote something that says:

If you increase the sample size to 100 people, your margin of error falls to 10%. Now if 60% of the participants reported a fear of heights, there would be a 95% probability that between 50 and 70% of the total population have a fear of heights. Now you’re getting somewhere.

In support of saying 100 people isn’t any good at all.

200 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:56:21pm

re: #197 ProBosniaLiberal

OT, but I just finished a book called Origins of Catastrophe by the now deceased Warren Zimmerman on the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

I have thoughts about it. Am I allowed to do a page as a Book Review?

Others have done it before.

201 allegro  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:56:31pm

re: #194 Killgore Trout

Science!
sciencebuddies.org

This was a newspaper poll, not a formal sociological study. There is a difference.

202 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:57:01pm

re: #197 ProBosniaLiberal

OT, but I just finished a book called Origins of Catastrophe by the now deceased Warren Zimmerman on the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

I have thoughts about it. Am I allowed to do a page as a Book Review?

Well, there’s a category in the Pages called “Books”, so, um…yeah?

203 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:57:04pm

I’ll also point out that some creationists, Old Earth Creationists, could answer affirmative on “evolution” as well as “creationism” (thus driving the totals over 100%), because some OE creationists will acknowledge that some living organisms have changed over time, but that humans are special and were specially created.

204 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:58:44pm
In June, Gallup found that 46 percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years, and that view “is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago when Gallup first asked the questions.”post-gazette.com

There are probably some science teachers in that 46%.

205 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:58:46pm

re: #182 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’ve never even understood what they meant by micro vs macro. Do they not believe in speciation but they do believe a species can adapt over time?

I think it’s a fundamentalist argument rooted in God creating every species that ever existed during Genesis. They’re asserting some kind of a “conservation of species” law that somehow isn’t violated if a species gains new characteristics in toto, but is violated if man evolves from apes but there are still apes.

206 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:59:20pm

And right there on the same page is the Penn State survey of biology teachers, which finds that only 28% of them are actually teaching evolution as recommended and ‘advocating’ for it, though it shouldn’t even be a matter of advocacy.

And that’s got 926 respondents.

207 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 5:59:31pm

re: #197 ProBosniaLiberal

OT, but I just finished a book called Origins of Catastrophe by the now deceased Warren Zimmerman on the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

I have thoughts about it. Am I allowed to do a page as a Book Review?

There is the category of ‘BOOK” Charles created, just for this purpose.

208 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:00:40pm

re: #180 Amory Blaine

I propose we teach magic too. It’s just another “theory” eh?
/

I love magic. It’s just…so magical!

209 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:00:58pm

re: #205 goddamnedfrank

I think it’s a fundamentalist argument rooted in God creating every species that ever existed during Genesis. They’re asserting some kind of a “conservation of species” law that somehow isn’t violated if a species gains new characteristics in toto, but is violated if man evolves from apes but there are still apes.

Okay, well, we have observed speciation, so I guess it’d just be proving to them that we’ve observed speciation. Other than that, the fossil record of the horse is one of the more complete ones.

chem.tufts.edu

210 Belafon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:02:07pm

re: #182 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

How do you explain the flu changing every year? The evolution of viruses and bacteria seriously undercuts that nothing changes. Therefore, they incorporate that by allowing micro but not macro. It also requires a 6000-10000 year time limit.

211 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:02:48pm

re: #179 Romantic Heretic

I once read an SF story predicated on the idea that it was usually predators that evolved sentience in the universe. I enjoyed it a lot.

The Bully and The Crazy Boy

The problem is these predators were very rational creatures, and we humans are not.

Many moons ago, I came across a documentary by a human-genetics researcher who was tracking a rare gene carried only by males. One of his research venues in Africa brought him to a primitive tribe that still survived by tracking and hunting prey. (Wish I could find it again.)

Their survival depended on finding and correctly interpreting various animal tracks left in wet fields and near streams. In other words, mastering symbols and patterns.

They reminded me of Cuniform writing, and advanced math symbols such as might be found on Einstein’s blackboards, or tools-of-the-trade for any typical modern scientist/engineer/mathematician.

212 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:03:05pm

re: #169 Charles Johnson

Yeah, it would be nice to have a better idea of how those numbers actually break down, but even if it ends up being about 20-25% instead of 33%, that’s still way too many creationists teaching science.

Frankly, that science teachers do not 100% accept evolution as factual ought to be a failing.

Really, think about this: would you want math teachers teaching that 6x9=42? Or that the first (colonizing) European to find the Americas was Jesus who came to convert the Lamanites?

213 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:03:47pm

re: #195 freetoken

It isn’t really telling. Believe it or not, the Post Gazette, is the more liberal paper of the region. If this was in the Tribune Review, I might take that seriously, but the person conducting the survey clearly wanted to see how people responded to BOTH intelligent design AND creationism.

This is important because some science teachers could say that they don’t teach creationism, but are for intelligent design. This would be important data because then you could combine those two categories and get the actual figure for creationist science teachers. However, they dropped the ball by not releasing the actual survey results and just released a sloppy chart with little explanation.

214 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:04:38pm

re: #209 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Okay, well, we have observed speciation, so I guess it’d just be proving to them that we’ve observed speciation. Other than that, the fossil record of the horse is one of the more complete ones.

chem.tufts.edu

Still wouldn’t work for many creationists. They are a species of conspiracist, and even if the evidence set before them is irrefutable, they’ll just scream ‘conspiracy!’. The only real way to get someone to abandon conspiracism is to address the reason their mind fled reality in the first place*.

*: Yeah, I know that talking about a root cause is a bit rich coming from me. But sometimes it has validity.

215 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:04:38pm

Really, wouldn’t a ring species disprove microevolution-only all on its own?

216 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:05:49pm

re: #213 Grackle

I’m not objecting to the polling.

It’s in the story, at the top under the headline:

Some 20 percent of science teachers in survey say they believe in creationism

It looks like they are rounding up the 19% and ignoring the 13% ID box checkers.

217 team_fukit  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:06:13pm

Not trying to start crap but the survey sample seems a bit small here. I currently live in PA and it’s a very diverse state.

I’d be willing to guess that in some areas, 926/926 respondents think Jesus rode the colt of a dino.//

218 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:06:42pm

re: #217 team_fukit

Not trying to start crap but the survey sample seems a bit small here. I currently live in PA and it’s a very diverse state.

I’d be willing to guess that in some areas, 926/926 respondents think Jesus rode the colt of a dino.//

With a six-shooter on each hip!

219 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:06:45pm

re: #176 Grackle

They aren’t. A dinosaur isn’t just going to give birth to a bird one day. That’s not evolution at all, that’s magic. Evolution happens slowly. The dinosaur gets more like a bird over many, many generations at a rate that would not be observable if you lived for 1,000 years.

It can take as little as 5,000 years.

There is a lake in Africa, Lake Nabugabo. It was until about 5,000 years ago part of Lake Victoria.

In that time a number of species indigenous to Lake Nabugabo have evolved.

Myself I regard this as a good example of the punctuated equilibrium model for evolution.

220 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:07:02pm

re: #215 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I think creationists would still call the varieties within the ring the same “kind.”
Not having a clear definition of “kind” makes that convenient.

221 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:07:49pm

re: #212 freetoken

Unrealistic. If I ever returned 100% for any sample, I would redo my survey or experiment. It is very rare to see something correlate 100% with anything else in science. Though my O. Chem professor says that there are some chemical reaction mechanisms that can return 100% actual yield to theoretical yield ratio. I’ve yet to see such a reaction though.

222 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:08:36pm

Speaking of nature.

This evening’s cuteness break.

223 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:08:50pm

re: #217 team_fukit

Again: A lower sample size means the poll has a larger margin of error, not that it simply disappears from relevance. Only with very small sample sizes, or relatively small samples of a large and diverse population, do you fall into the area where the confidence dips low enough not to be at all useful.

224 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:09:14pm

re: #194 Killgore Trout

Science!
sciencebuddies.org

The formula given in the page you linked gives us a margin of error of 9.7% for a sample size of 106.

Being generous and taking the full 9.7% off the cited figure we are still left with a shockingly high proportion of teachers who don’t believe in evolution.

225 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:09:16pm

re: #221 Grackle

Unrealistic. If I ever returned 100% for any sample size, I would redo my survey or experiment.

Forget polling. I’m talking about the actual practice, not trying to measure it by self-reported census taking.

226 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:09:33pm

re: #220 jaunte

I think creationists would still call the varieties within the ring the same “kind.”
Not having a clear definition of “kind” makes that convenient.

But at least two kinds can’t breed with each other. They are functionally speciated.

227 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:09:39pm

re: #216 freetoken

But all of that 13% could be the same people who checked the creationist box. This was a survey where you could pick more than one of the above.

228 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:09:54pm

I haven’t watched a full Sunday roundtable or even watched CNN or FOX News channels, at all, due to being cableless for over the last year. FUCK YEAH!!!!

229 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:10:23pm

re: #226 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

True, but you’re talking about science. This is religious politics.

230 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:10:52pm

For example: some fragrant creationist bs:

Donn Chapman, senior pastor at Cornerstone, said he doesn’t want schools to teach creationism. Instead, he said, he wants teachers to discuss alternate theories to evolution, including intelligent design, to create critical thinkers.
….
“I don’t want to produce students who just know how to check the right box on a multiple-choice test to pass a standardized test. I want us to produce critical thinkers,” Chapman said. “The best scientists in America in the future will be those who learn how to think critically, not those who learn to just give the right answer out of a textbook.”

triblive.com

231 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:11:10pm

re: #229 jaunte

True, but you’re talking about science. This is religious politics.

But for communicating to an earnest and ignorant person, it might actually give them some pause.

232 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:12:04pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

Though you so far seem to have ignored the links I posted in my #178, I hope you’ll read them nonetheless.

I get that it’s highly unpleasant to acknowledge that a serious problem has sprung up within something you care deeply about & identify with. Just as people expect moderate, responsible Muslims to not be in denial about extremist elements within their ranks and the causes of it, so must moderate, responsible conservatives own up to the extremism (and its causes) within their ranks and try to root it out.

No one gets a pass on this crap.

233 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:12:28pm

re: #228 Amory Blaine

I haven’t watched a full Sunday roundtable or even watched CNN or FOX News channels, at all, due to being cableless for over the last year. FUCK YEAH!!!!

Do you have a sponsor?

234 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:13:00pm

re: #227 Grackle

Yes, and it is thus a fault that exists in the poll.

However, I really doubt that YEC’s would also check “Intelligent Design”, given the widespread published works of YECs that explicitly call for an OT/NT form of creationism.

Perhaps some would, but expecting all IDers to also check “creationism”, when they know that word is tied to YEC in most people’s minds, is something that I doubt would happen.

235 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:15:09pm

re: #230 jaunte

He he another article from your link

Three officials approve textbook for Franklin Regional students with reservations

Among the topics the trio expressed concern about are the way the Constitution is presented, slavery and the role of government.
Tower said she knows that “good-quality” teachers will expound on the ideas in the textbooks. On the topic of slavery, she suggested that teachers encourage students not to judge slave owners.
“History is a unique subject, in that we have 20/20 hindsight,” Tower said. “It’s not always right to judge (history) in the context of today. With slavery, you have to take it in the context of the time. It’s not an excuse. But the idea is to be grateful that we have improved today.”

236 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:15:25pm

re: #225 freetoken

My O. Chem professor (same guy I mentioned last time), mentions that he goes to church (not in relation to class). He hasn’t inserted a second of theology into the classroom. I don’t mind if they believe in it, as long as they leave it at the door when they begin lecturing. I have seen a lot of creationism and right wing ideology leak into my history classes though.

237 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:16:35pm

By the way, this is a compliment to all our commenters, I think:

238 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:16:37pm

Look at us all, having some productive science discussion. We could use more of this in our society.

239 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:16:52pm

re: #233 Iwouldprefernotto

Nope. But I’m so glad to be off that stuff. I started consuming all that crap including right wing radio after 9/11.

240 jaunte  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:16:54pm

I think the creationists see this as a battle of authority.
They focus on trying to damage Charles Darwin’s reputation.

Not all of the sessions focused solely on scientific theory. During one session, Jerry Bergman, an author and professor of biology most recently teaching at Northwest State Community College in Ohio, addressed what he called the “dark side of Darwin.” Notes provided by the church from the session quote several Bible verses. According to the course notes, Darwin had a negative attitude towards women, was a racist and had questionable mental health. Chapman questioned why the man is regarded so highly.

“He was a chauvinist pig that never evolved and believed women evolved less than men,” he said. “Why are we taking a man like that and holding him up as an example to our children?”

Instead, Chapman, who hosts a weekly show called “Origins” on Cornerstone’s Christian TV station, said schools should focus on sharing ideas and learning the truth. In particular, he advocates for teachers sharing alternate ideas — most notably intelligent design — on evolution.

triblive.com

241 freetoken  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:17:24pm

Given the rise of the post-modern religion/science synthesis being attempted here and there, e.g., Biologos, I propose it more likely that there was a non-trivial overlap of “creationist” and “evolutionist”.

Biologos and their friends have been pushing hard the term “evolutionary creationism”, which sufficiently blurs the difference that it is hard to tell what is exactly meant. These believers really do believe that they can call evolution a “creation” and thus use the term “evolutionary creationism” or the approbation “evolutionary creationist”.

To me it is all too Newspeak.

242 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:17:59pm

re: #240 jaunte

I think the creationists see this as a battle of authority.
They focus on trying to damage Charles Darwin’s reputation.

Authority and Morality.

They NEED to think that humans are created in G-d’s image and are therefore superior, morally and any other way.

It’s very important to them.

243 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:18:10pm

re: #234 freetoken

Yes, and it is thus a fault that exists in the poll.

However, I really doubt that YEC’s would also check “Intelligent Design”, given the widespread published works of YECs that explicitly call for an OT/NT form of creationism.

Perhaps some would, but expecting all IDers to also check “creationism”, when they know that word is tied to YEC in most people’s minds, is something that I doubt would happen.

If asked in a poorly-defined poll, my biologist/priest mentioned above would probably describe himself as a ‘creationist’. He also would insist that Genesis is figurative language, and that all the work of creation was accomplished setting the Big Bang in motion. Designing a popular polling instrument that measures what it claims to measure is rare and difficult.

244 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:18:23pm

re: #238 Grackle

Look at us all. Having some productive science discussion. We could use more of this in our society.

I’m also drinking this, and I chilled it with science.

Image: 399488_10150577166363974_637533973_10938123_2036289353_n.jpg

I didn’t have any cold, so I got a paper towel soaking wet, wrapped it around the bottle of beer, and stuck it in the fridge for 12 minutes. Presto, nice-cold beer.

245 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:19:02pm

re: #243 Decatur Deb

I frankly don’t care what teacher believes, I just care what they teach. That part of the poll is the super-depressing part.

246 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:19:42pm

re: #213 Grackle

It isn’t really telling. Believe it or not, the Post Gazette, is the more liberal paper of the region. If this was in the Tribune Review, I might take that seriously, but the person conducting the survey clearly wanted to see how people responded to BOTH intelligent design AND creationism.

This is important because some science teachers could say that they don’t teach creationism, but are for intelligent design. This would be important data because then you could combine those two categories and get the actual figure for creationist science teachers. However, they dropped the ball by not releasing the actual survey results and just released a sloppy chart with little explanation.

I’m confused. What does the fact that a paper is “liberal” have to do with a discussion about science?

247 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:19:47pm
248 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:21:07pm

re: #222 FemNaziBitch

Speaking of nature.

This evening’s cuteness break.

squee!!!!!!!

249 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:21:15pm

re: #209 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Okay, well, we have observed speciation, so I guess it’d just be proving to them that we’ve observed speciation.

The only nit to pick there is that we’ve observed speciation with regards to bacteria in a laboratory setting.

This lack of any clear species concept in microbiology has led to some authors arguing that the term “species” is not useful when studying bacterial evolution. Instead they see genes as moving freely between even distantly related bacteria, with the entire bacterial domain being a single gene pool. Nevertheless, a kind of rule of thumb has been established, saying that species of Bacteria or Archaea with 16S rRNA gene sequences more similar than 97% to each other need to be checked by DNA-DNA Hybridization if they belong to the same species or not.[19] This concept has been updated recently, saying that the border of 97% was too low and can be raised to 98.7%.[20]

250 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:21:19pm

re: #247 FemNaziBitch

Yeah I stopped after “Union greed”. First words in what is sure a high screed of derpitude.

251 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:21:51pm

re: #246 Backwoods_Sleuth

I’m confused. What does the fact that a paper is “liberal” have to do with a discussion about science?

Because the other Pittsburgh paper is a RWNJ rag run as a political hobby by Mellon-Scaife.

252 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:22:38pm

re: #246 Backwoods_Sleuth

Nothing, but I don’t think they have an agenda to pretend ID and creationism are two different things.

253 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:23:17pm
254 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:23:27pm

re: #249 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, and bacteria and species is a bit of a grey area anyway. I think ring species might actually be a good thing to talk about. It is incredibly easy to explain if you believe in, well, real evolution, very hard to believe if you only believe in ‘micro’.

255 Mattand  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:23:39pm

So, I haven’t swung by LGF today, and I sez to myself, “Self, maybe there’s an open thread and I’ll see if anyone has Bioshock Infinite comments, since I rented the game this weekend.”

Then I see this post. Ugh.

“Cram” evolution down kids’ throats. In the state next door to me.

I’m gonna go draw something to make myself feel better. Maybe Charles Darwin putting the Discovery Institute in a figure four leglock.

256 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:24:14pm

re: #252 Grackle

Nothing, but I don’t think they have an agenda to pretend ID and creationism are two different things.

Actually they do. There are laws about teaching Creationism in public schools. So they rebranded it Intelligent Design. Same product, different label.

257 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:24:57pm

re: #256 FemNaziBitch

I don’t think the Post Gazette has that agenda. Others certainly do.

258 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:25:19pm

re: #250 Amory Blaine

Yeah I stopped after “Union greed”. First words in what is sure a high screed of derpitude.

The Whackos know what they are doing. I already forgot what the real reason was, I can imagine most of the readers already forgot about it all together.

Recycling idiocy at it’s best.

259 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:25:46pm

Sorry, I have to learn to be more clear in my responses.

260 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:25:48pm

re: #252 Grackle

Nothing, but I don’t think they have an agenda to pretend ID and creationism are two different things.

I just don’t understand this tendency toward labeling papers and other sources as liberal or conservative or whatever. I fail to see how that remotely enters into a discussion about something completely unrelated. Unless, of course, the person making such labels has an ulterior agenda to dismiss a source just because.

261 Mattand  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:26:22pm

re: #256 FemNaziBitch

Actually they do. There are laws about teaching Creationism in public schools. So they rebranded it Intelligent Design. Same product, different label.

What’s amazing/frustrating about all of this is that ID was ruled creationism in 2005 IN FUCKING PENNSYLVANIA.*

*Not to be confused with Intercourse, PA.

262 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:26:28pm

re: #182 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’ve never even understood what they meant by micro vs macro. Do they not believe in speciation but they do believe a species can adapt over time?

They don’t either, all they know is adaptation occurs within a kind but cannot cross the kind border.

Ask them to define kind and you’ll get a change of subject, a bible verse or a description different than what you got from the last creationist willing to expose his idiocy.

263 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:26:56pm

re: #255 Mattand

So, I haven’t swung by LGF today, and I sez to myself, “Self, maybe there’s an open thread and I’ll see if anyone has Bioshock Infinite comments, since I rented the game this weekend.”

Then I see this post. Ugh.

“Cram” evolution down kids’ throats. In the state next door to me.

I’m gonna go draw something to make myself feel better. Maybe Charles Darwin putting the Discovery Institute in a figure four leglock.

I call myself dude.

264 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:27:17pm

re: #250 Amory Blaine

Yeah I stopped after “Union greed”. First words in what is sure a high screed of derpitude.

It was a bad piece that only functioned as gloating over the fact that the new owners of Hostess Brands dumped their plants’ union contracts via the bankruptcy process. It completely fails to mention how badly Hostess was mismanaged in the first place by its executives. Unions aren’t blameless in the story of Hostess’ fall, but the to cardinal failure was not theirs but of the company’s management.

265 Mattand  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:27:29pm

re: #263 Amory Blaine

I call myself dude.

As long as you abide.

266 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:27:59pm

re: #260 Backwoods_Sleuth

I just don’t understand this tendency toward labeling papers and other sources as liberal or conservative or whatever. I fail to see how that remotely enters into a discussion about something completely unrelated. Unless, of course, the person making such labels has an ulterior agenda to dismiss a source just because.

I think because of the days when they were more transparent about it. Back in Revolutionary Times, everyone knew which papers had owners or financial supporters in politics . I’m totally hazy on the specifics of history on this one.

Anyone remember —Ben Franklin actually was a printer, Jefferson and Adams???

267 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:28:13pm

re: #259 Grackle

Sorry, I have to learn to be more clear in my responses.

I was walking to visit my wife at UCSF one day, and I saw, taped to the inside of the window of a shop I was passing, a simple sign. It said:

“THE BIRDS! THE BIRDS!”

I said to myself, “Well, what the hell does that m—-“

and right then a grackle divebombed me, landed on my head, pecked me, and flew away. Then it flew back in for another attack.

I ran like Darwin going after an iguana, and after I was ten feet away he decided he’d won. And I muttered to myself.

“The birds! The birds!”

268 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:28:58pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Is that the sample size for this survey? Yeesh! elc-pa.org

There are 3,264 public schools in the state. Even supposing each school has only one science teacher the sample size is absurdly small. Nothing like using bad science to debunk bad science! lol

Statistics has several methods for dealing with small sample sizes, including increasing the error bar/uncertainty size.

269 Mattand  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:29:32pm

re: #267 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I was walking to visit my wife at UCSF one day, and I saw, taped to the inside of the window of a shop I was passing, a simple sign. It said:

“THE BIRDS! THE BIRDS!”

I said to myself, “Well, what the hell does that m—-“

and right then a grackle divebombed me, landed on my head, pecked me, and flew away. Then it flew back in for another attack.

I ran like Darwin going after an iguana, and after I was ten feet away he decided he’d won. And I muttered to myself.

“The birds! The birds!”

It could have been much, much worse.

270 Grackle  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:30:35pm

re: #267 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I’m doing a several week experiment involving birds for Ethology. Basically, I just set up a bird feeder on my back porch and I’m making observances based on interspecific competition. When a grackle shows up, all of the other birds just get the hell out of there.

271 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:30:48pm

re: #267 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I was walking to visit my wife at UCSF one day, and I saw, taped to the inside of the window of a shop I was passing, a simple sign. It said:

“THE BIRDS! THE BIRDS!”

I said to myself, “Well, what the hell does that m—-“

and right then a grackle divebombed me, landed on my head, pecked me, and flew away. Then it flew back in for another attack.

I ran like Darwin going after an iguana, and after I was ten feet away he decided he’d won. And I muttered to myself.

“The birds! The birds!”

Would you like this hat with a flak cannon mounted on it?
Only $29.95!!!!!!!!!!!!

272 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:31:09pm

re: #269 Mattand

Image: Tippi.jpg

273 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:31:15pm

re: #266 FemNaziBitch

I think because of the days when they were more transparent about it. Back in Revolutionary Times, everyone knew which papers had owners or financial supporters in politics . I’m totally hazy on the specifics of history on this one.

Anyone remember —Ben Franklin actually was a printer, Jefferson and Adams???

It was common up through the 19th Cent for papers to be named ‘The Podunk Democrat’ or ‘Bumpkinville Republican’. You can find examples of papers that shifted their politics through time without changing the name.

274 klys  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:31:24pm

re: #237 Charles Johnson

What’s really nice is that was one of the recent abortion debate threads too.

275 Mattand  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:31:49pm

re: #270 Grackle

I’m doing a several week experiment involving birds for Ethology. Basically, I just set up a bird feeder on my back porch and I’m making observances based on interspecific competition. When a grackle shows up, all of the other birds just get the hell out of there.

With your screen name, I will laugh like crazy if everyone runs to a new thread.

276 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:32:17pm

re: #203 freetoken

I’ll also point out that some creationists, Old Earth Creationists, could answer affirmative on “evolution” as well as “creationism” (thus driving the totals over 100%), because some OE creationists will acknowledge that some living organisms have changed over time, but that humans are special and were specially created.

OECs venture into the ID camp in most cases. Evolution was helped at key points by god, and humans are either special creation or the result of a long line of divine tweaks.

277 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:34:31pm

re: #271 Varek Raith

Would you like this hat with a flak cannon mounted on it?
Only $29.95!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not counting the $200 transfer tax, of course. ;)

278 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:35:12pm

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Not counting the $200 transfer tax, of course. ;)

Or ammo…
Or batteries…
Or highly trained mice to crew it…

279 Stanley Sea  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:49:26pm

re: #272 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Image: Tippi.jpg

My best holloween costume ever. I glued birds all over a greet suit. Now a days, no one gets it so I retired it.

280 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:56:26pm

re: #273 Decatur Deb

It was common up through the 19th Cent for papers to be named ‘The Podunk Democrat’ or ‘Bumpkinville Republican’. You can find examples of papers that shifted their politics through time without changing the name.

Dacron Republican-Democrat

281 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:18:17pm

re: #279 Stanley Sea

My best holloween costume ever. I glued birds all over a greet suit. Now a days, no one gets it so I retired it.

No, best halloween costume is the fake pregnant bump. A couple I know with 5 kids, both got fixed and told everyone NO MORE KIDS. The next Halloween party she showed up with that fake bump. Scared the shit out of me.

282 danhenry1  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:40:20pm

With the advances made in gravity studies and orbital mechanics we are finding out that our neighbors in our Sol system have a great impact on things on our little planet. I would present therefore the argument that Astrology has more of a chance of having some provable data than Creation Nonscience could ever hope to achieve.
All these religous studies do is keep us safely away from that forbidden fruit of ‘Knowledge’.

283 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:45:24pm

re: #247 FemNaziBitch

Stupidty at it’s best. IMHO

The opposition to unions shows to me that many of those who label themselves ‘conservative’ are authoritarian in nature.

The right to assemble freely is on par with freedom of speech or conscience. By opposing this right these people show exactly how much interest they have in freedom.

284 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 7:47:54pm

re: #256 FemNaziBitch

Actually they do. There are laws about teaching Creationism in public schools. So they rebranded it Intelligent Design. Same product, different label.

Just as anarchy was relabelled ‘libertarianism’.

285 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 8:04:36pm

re: #282 danhenry1

Astrology has 0% chance of being in any way right, at all.

286 stabby  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 8:08:55pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

There used to be some extremely rabid creationists who were regular commenters here. When I began posting my opinions about creationism, some of those people went unbelievably nuts.

“Unbelievably nuts” was when I called Sharia “the worst, most backward legal system” in front of an Islamist and gave a few examples of horrible principles in it.
Thank God it was only the internet.
His rant included fantasizing that Nigerians with machetes kill all Israelis, telling an Israeli grandmother that he was glad that her grandson died (in the IDF) and saying that Jews should all be tortured to death in front of their families.

287 Tigger2005  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 5:35:52pm

re: #46 Feline Fearless Leader

And it’s unlikely there will be a another “Sputnik Moment” soon that will scare the political structure into feeling the need to tamp things down and concentrate on science and science education and research again.

The response to Sputnik may have been motivated partly by irrational fear, but it was still a RATIONAL response. Today, the response would be, “We’re not prayin’ enough, and we’re believin’ the evolution and not beatin’ up on the ghey enough, and therefore God has removed his special protections from the country and given us over to our enemies.”


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