Heritage Immigration Study Co-Author Resigns Over White Nationalist Connections

Blew the cover

Jason Richwine, the Heritage Foundation analyst who published articles on a white nationalist website and was a co-author of Heritage’s recent study on the economic impact of immigration, has resigned. Richwine also suggested in his Harvard thesis that America should discourage immigration by non-whites because their IQs are lower. An all-around lovely fellow, and the perfect person to write a study on immigration — if you’re a wingnut.

He blew the cover so he’s gotta go, like John Derbyshire and Robert Weissberg.

UPDATE at 5/10/13 1:52:37 pm

Andrew Kaczynski found another time the Heritage analyst said blacks and Hispanics have lower IQs.

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240 comments

1 Dr Lizardo  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:22:22pm

No doubt Michelle Malkin and the wingnuts will scream he’s being persecuted.

I’d expect nothing less from them.

2 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:23:06pm
3 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:23:36pm

Wingnuts, the only ‘victims’ here are the poor grad students and graduates with a Ph.D. in Public Policy from Harvard who now have to deal with the fact that everyone knows how crappy the standards in that department are.

I’m sure there are some who put in the work and cared about their research and earned the degree, and now they’re going to be painted with the same brush, because there’s no way anyone should have gotten a Ph.D. for this bullshit.

4 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:23:49pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

“Un-PC research” = racist shit that was debunked 70 years ago.

Eat a bag of dicks, Michelle.

5 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:24:00pm

Jason Richwine: “No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against.”

The Heritage Foundation had better check with Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.

6 iossarian  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:25:34pm

re: #3 klys

I’m sure there are some who put in the work and cared about their research and earned the degree, and now they’re going to be painted with the same brush, because there’s no way anyone should have gotten a Ph.D. for this bullshit.

As much as I disagree with Richwine’s policy recommendation (apparently that there should be an IQ requirement for immigration) I must say this is a pretty bold claim.

Have you read his dissertation? (I haven’t.)

8 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:25:59pm
“It is our long-standing policy not to discuss internal personnel matters,” Heritage Foundation Vice President of Communications Michael Gonzalez tells The Washington Examiner.

Lol.

9 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:26:41pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

10 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:27:00pm

re: #6 iossarian

As much as I disagree with Richwine’s policy recommendation (apparently that there should be an IQ requirement for immigration) I must say this is a pretty bold claim.

Have you read his dissertation? (I haven’t.)

Yes.

You can spare yourself the headache.

11 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:27:43pm

re: #3 klys

Wingnuts, the only ‘victims’ here are the poor grad students and graduates with a Ph.D. in Public Policy from Harvard who now have to deal with the fact that everyone knows how crappy the standards in that department are.

I’m sure there are some who put in the work and cared about their research and earned the degree, and now they’re going to be painted with the same brush, because there’s no way anyone should have gotten a Ph.D. for this bullshit.

Harvard really deserves to have their nose rubbed in this. Thanks for getting a running head start on the job.

12 Gus  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:29:17pm
13 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:29:23pm

New outrage generator: IRS-Gate

Gonna be some major butt-hurt outrage over this, and although the abuses were limited to low-level IRS workers, it will be blamed on Obama and blamed for the GOP defeat.

14 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:30:35pm

re: #6 iossarian

As much as I disagree with Richwine’s policy recommendation (apparently that there should be an IQ requirement for immigration) I must say this is a pretty bold claim.

Have you read his dissertation? (I haven’t.)

Not only is a connection between IQ and genetics less than tenuous at best, a connection between Hispanicness and genetics is completely nonexistent.

15 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:31:42pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

Also, his research barely counts as research.

When you make shitty, unjustified assumptions that effect both your design and your conclusion, then you haven’t done research. You’ve created a circular exercise in self-justification.

16 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:31:59pm

lol

17 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:33:40pm

Deep thoughts.

18 lawhawk  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:34:00pm

Weigel has a take on this, and notes that even Richwine’s advisers have backed away from the conclusions that he reached - namely because he overreached on the relationship and implications.

Academics aren’t so concerned with the politics. But they know all too well the risks that come with research connecting IQ and race. At the start of his dissertation, Richwine thanked his three advisers—George Borjas, Christopher Jenks, and Richard Zeckhauser—for being so helpful and so bold. Borjas “helped me navigate the minefield of early graduate school,” he wrote. “Richard Zeckhauser, never someone to shy away from controversial ideas, immediately embraced my work.”
Yet they don’t embrace everything Richwine’s done since. “Jason’s empirical work was careful,” Zeckhauser told me over email. “Moreover, my view is that none of his advisors would have accepted his thesis had he thought that his empirical work was tilted or in error. However, Richwine was too eager to extrapolate his empirical results to inferences for policy.”
Borjas’ own work on immigration and inequality has led to a few two-minutes-hate moments in the press. He wasn’t entirely convinced by Richwine, either.

“I have never worked on anything even remotely related to IQ, so don’t really know what to think about the relation between IQ, immigration, etc,” Borjas told me in an email. “In fact, as I know I told Jason early on since I’ve long believed this, I don’t find the IQ academic work all that interesting. Economic outcomes and IQ are only weakly related, and IQ only measures one kind of ability. I’ve been lucky to have met many high-IQ people in academia who are total losers, and many smart, but not super-smart people, who are incredibly successful because of persistence, motivation, etc. So I just think that, on the whole, the focus on IQ is a bit misguided.”

But Richwine had been fascinated by it, and for a very long time, in an environment that never discouraged it. Anyone who works in Washington and wants to explore the dark arts of race and IQ research is in the right place. The city’s a bit like a college campus, where investigating “taboo” topics is rewarded, especially on the right. A liberal squeals “racism,” and they hear the political correctness cops (most often, the Southern Poverty Law Center) reporting a thinkcrime.

19 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:35:09pm

re: #6 iossarian

As much as I disagree with Richwine’s policy recommendation (apparently that there should be an IQ requirement for immigration) I must say this is a pretty bold claim.

Have you read his dissertation? (I haven’t.)

I should elaborate. He makes controversial claims, handwaves away any critical argument that might be put forward, neglects any number of other factors that could be brought into play, cherry-picks his sources, and pretty much starts with a pre-conceived result and works his way towards it. Oh, and I’m not sure I buy half of his ‘statistical’ arguments but statistics is not my specialty. The whole thing, including acknowledgements, title page, table of contents, and bibliography, clocks in at 166 pages and was signed off on by three professors who apparently are also on the scientific racism bandwagon.

His policy argument is to have a IQ requirement for immigration but the main thrust of his thesis is that Hispanics in particular (but all immigrants except Asians) are dumber than the ‘native’ population and these are racial differences that don’t go away even after several generations live in the country.

It’s bullshit. Moral issues aside, it’s shoddy academic work. If that’s what passes for Ph.D. caliber material at Harvard, I’m glad my Ph.D. isn’t from Harvard.

20 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:35:10pm

re: #14 wrenchwench

Not only is a connection between IQ and genetics less than tenuous at best, a connection between Hispanicness and genetics is completely nonexistent.

Last night, godammedfrank made the telling observation that Richwine’s ‘work’ does not appear to account for the fact that the US labor market, especially the illegal part, preferentially draws from the poor and disadvantaged in Mexico. To sample these people in the US and draw conclusions about Mexican immigrants in general is straight-up fraud.

21 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:37:13pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Weigel has a take on this, and notes that even Richwine’s advisers have backed away from the conclusions that he reached - namely because he overreached on the relationship and implications.

You know, maybe they should have considered these concerns before they signed off on his dissertation.

22 iossarian  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:38:26pm

re: #10 klys

Yes.

You can spare yourself the headache.

That’s great - could you do me a huge favor and let me know whether I’ve got the gist of it right below? It seems, from what I’ve heard, that Richwine constructed the following argument:

A) He provided statistical evidence that certain racial/ethnic groups in the US have differing IQ levels, and that these differences persist across generations post-immigration. This is not, in itself, particularly surprising. It’s pretty obvious that these measures are correlated to some extent with income and education, and the US is still pretty segregated on those variables.

B) He made the policy claim that it’s better to have a high-IQ population than a low-IQ population. I think this is questionable but I don’t think this is the really controversial part.

C) He extrapolated from A and B that it would be good to implement an IQ test on immigration. This is where the main controversy starts for me, because from a policy point of view you’re treating a symptom (certain racial/ethnic groups demonstrate low IQ test scores in the US) rather than the cause (US society is segregated by race/class, and this is reflected in the test scores).

D) Even beyond C) he then seems to be saying that admitting certain racial/ethnic groups is a bad idea given their group’s low average IQ scores. This is much worse, since it completely ignores the probable social reasons for the different scores in each US group, and instead assumes that they’re caused by non-US genetic factors.

Is that about it? Again, I’m not attempting to defend Richwine’s policy recommendations in any way, shape or form. But I think that defeating those recommendations depends in part on understanding how he was attempting to justify them.

23 geoffm33  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:38:28pm

re: #1 Dr Lizardo

No doubt Michelle Malkin and the wingnuts will scream he’s being persecuted.

I’d expect nothing less from them.

SHE’S A TITAN. A TITAN!!!!!!!!1111111

24 Lidane  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:40:14pm

Haha:

25 Dr Lizardo  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:42:03pm

re: #23 geoffm33

A titan of malignant derpitude, perhaps.

26 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:42:06pm

re: #23 geoffm33

All the titans start their accusations with the phrase “I hope you’re happy!”
And a stomp of their titanic little foot.

27 Bulworth  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:43:11pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

jrubin contributed what to this Heritage disaster?

28 Bulworth  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:44:06pm

re: #26 jaunte

Do you KNOW who I AM!?!?!!1111! I haz a TITAN!

29 RadicalModerate  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:46:30pm

re: #23 geoffm33

No, Michelle Malkin is a fascist wanna-be (see her statements supporting interment of non-whites), with articles that are regularly reprinted on white nationalist sites like VDARE and Stormfront, and who rubs elbows with individuals like Jared Taylor (of American Renaissance).

30 darthstar  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:48:05pm

Does this mean he got the job offer from the American Enterprise Institute?

31 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:49:23pm
32 Bulworth  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:50:31pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

Rebranding!

33 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:51:01pm

All snark aside, it’s just a countdown until he’s picked up by a slightly-more-openly-racist “think tank.”

Meaning that his work won’t be directly cited by a Congressman, but instead will be cited in a study cited by a Congressman.

34 Lidane  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:51:05pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

Shorter Murray:

Us racist assholes gotta stick together!

///

35 darthstar  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:51:12pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

My #30 was supposed to be snark…and you go and post a tweet that validates it?

36 Dr Lizardo  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:51:14pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

Must……not……….type
reference……..to……..Alfred Rosenberg…….
must……….fight….temptation.

37 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:51:51pm

re: #22 iossarian

That’s great - could you do me a huge favor and let me know whether I’ve got the gist of it right below? It seems, from what I’ve heard, that Richwine constructed the following argument:

A) He provided statistical evidence that certain racial/ethnic groups in the US have differing IQ levels, and that these differences persist across generations post-immigration. This is not, in itself, particularly surprising. It’s pretty obvious that these measures are correlated to some extent with income and education, and the US is still pretty segregated on those variables.

B) He made the policy claim that it’s better to have a high-IQ population than a low-IQ population. I think this is questionable but I don’t think this is the really controversial part.

C) He extrapolated from A and B that it would be good to implement an IQ test on immigration. This is where the main controversy starts for me, because from a policy point of view you’re treating a symptom (certain racial/ethnic groups demonstrate low IQ test scores in the US) rather than the cause (US society is segregated by race/class, and this is reflected in the test scores).

D) Even beyond C) he then seems to be saying that admitting certain racial/ethnic groups is a bad idea given their group’s low average IQ scores. This is much worse, since it completely ignores the probable social reasons for the different scores in each US group, and instead assumes that they’re caused by non-US genetic factors.

Is that about it? Again, I’m not attempting to defend Richwine’s policy recommendations in any way, shape or form. But I think that defeating those recommendations depends in part on understanding how he was attempting to justify them.

His evidence for A is somewhat shaky at best and downplays environmental aspects to place most of the emphasis on genetic background. Given the controversy around this issue, this would have been the obvious place for more work needing to be done. He also claims low IQ is genetic and certain groups (Hispanics) have much lower IQs than the white population.

Also, it’s bullshit that his ‘native’ population is treated as white in every respect.

His claim for B is that ‘high skill’ immigrants (which he claims high IQ immigrants will be) add more benefit to the population than ‘low skill’ immigrants and therefore should be given preferential admission, because the point of immigration is to provide the most benefit to the people already living here.

He advocates for C saying that it’s better than D because people from these populations with high IQs can still be admitted so he can’t possibly be racist.

That’s pretty much the main summary of it.

38 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:52:24pm

re: #13 Sol Berdinowitz

New outrage generator: IRS-Gate

Gonna be some major butt-hurt outrage over this, and although the abuses were limited to low-level IRS workers, it will be blamed on Obama and blamed for the GIO defeat.

They’re already linking Obama’s 2009 joke of having the IRS investigate opponents to it.

39 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:55:33pm

re: #38 kirkspencer

They’re already linking Obama’s 2009 joke of having the IRS investigate opponents to it.

There will be calls for impeachment over it before long, I am sure…

40 engineer cat  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:56:11pm

re: #37 klys

people from these populations with high IQs

but the question then becomes ‘high IQ - accordion to who?’

41 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:56:20pm

re: #39 Sol Berdinowitz

There will be calls for impeachment over it before long, I am sure…

And the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. ///

42 engineer cat  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:57:51pm

impeachment, impairment, or some other kinda imdrupement?

43 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:58:30pm

Great. Now we just need the douche canoes who signed off on his dissertation to resign from Harvard.

44 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 1:58:50pm

re: #40 engineer cat

but the question then becomes ‘high IQ - according to who?’

The completely unbiased and totally accurate IQ test that we have right here, of course.

///

It’s such shoddy academic work, it pisses me off. As I’m sure it royally pisses off any other person who had worked on a graduate degree. My Ph.D. is blood and tears and parts of my sanity. This feels like a complete insult to what it stands for.

45 iossarian  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:01:09pm

re: #37 klys

Thanks for taking the time both to read the thing and then post that.

Point A is really just the Bell Curve argument all over again. Stating that the IQ difference has a genetic explanation should be a pretty big red flag though, since there doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence for it.

This is the same problem that we run into with college entry test scores, where racial/ethnic group differences persist beyond controls for income/class status etc., and which cause all the same racists to crawl out of the woodwork and claim that black kids just aren’t college material.

I personally think the differences are probably due to cultural factors, peer effects and so on. If someone could actually do some good research into it, that would be awesome. But it is a bit of a career minefield.

46 kerFuFFler  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:01:30pm

Frankly, I tend to assume that there may be some fairly minor, slight shifts in the bell curve for differing racial groups just because the likelihood that the evolutionary outcomes would come out identical after tens of thousands of years of relative genetic isolation is small. Many physiological differences are observable between races——why should the nervous system be immune to such variation?

That said, such shifts in population outcomes are meaningless when you are making any kind of decision regarding an individual———that person could fall anywhere in the range, from idiot to super-genius regardless of race, so the fact that there might be minor overall differences when populations are studied is irrelevant in almost every context. Additionally, the slight shifts between groups are negligible compared to the wide range of intelligences we see between individuals.

47 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:02:14pm

re: #44 klys

The completely unbiased and totally accurate IQ test that we have right here, of course.

///

It’s such shoddy academic work, it pisses me off. As I’m sure it royally pisses off any other person who had worked on a graduate degree. My Ph.D. is blood and tears and parts of my sanity. This feels like a complete insult to what it stands for.

Heh. And then someone just says “It’s a piece of paper, why get upset over who claims to have one?” in regards to the complaints about those claiming degrees from diploma mills.

I remember the great flame war(s) over Derek Smart.

48 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:04:29pm

re: #45 iossarian

Thanks for taking the time both to read the thing and then post that.

Point A is really just the Bell Curve argument all over again. Stating that the IQ difference has a genetic explanation should be a pretty big red flag though, since there doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence for it.

This is the same problem that we run into with college entry test scores, where racial/ethnic group differences persist beyond controls for income/class status etc., and which cause all the same racists to crawl out of the woodwork and claim that black kids just aren’t college material.

I personally think the differences are probably due to cultural factors, peer effects and so on. If someone could actually do some good research into it, that would be awesome. But it is a bit of a career minefield.

His primary advisor was Charles Murray. Coauthor of the Bell Curve.

I’m sure that careful, thoughtful research into this area is possible, if controversial. But if there’s one thing I learned while working on my dissertation, it’s that if you make the controversial, unexpected claim, you need to have rock solid evidence to back it up.

This guy just waved his hands. There’s no excuse.

49 iossarian  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:05:16pm

re: #44 klys

It’s such shoddy academic work, it pisses me off. As I’m sure it royally pisses off any other person who had worked on a graduate degree. My Ph.D. is blood and tears and parts of my sanity. This feels like a complete insult to what it stands for.

Just out of interest, what field is your Ph.D. in?

(I have a Ph.D. in theoretical computer science, which is really useful for getting rid of people at parties.)

50 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:05:24pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Weigel has a take on this, and notes that even Richwine’s advisers have backed away from the conclusions that he reached - namely because he overreached on the relationship and implications.

Reading Weigel’s take is always more interesting when you know he wrote this:

Who can get enough of Dinesh D’Souza? I can’t. And my favorite response to the article is this pithy one from Steve Sailer , the underappreciated and un-P.C. writer on race who rightly sees D’Souza’s “Kenyan anti-colonialism” thesis as a watering down of Sailer’s own thesis in his book, America’s Half-Blood Prince .

It’s not a terribly well-done article — D’Souza’s attempts to draw straight lines between Obama’s intellectual heritage and various current Obama Administration policies are often silly. Yet, the outraged response to D’Souza’s piece just shows how few people out of the millions who have bought the President’s memoir, Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance have actually read the book, and how many fewer have read it with the care it deserves.

Ryan Chittum gets some good licks in , but Sailer’s pretty much got it. The problem is that D’Souza is giving the quick-and-wrong read to conservatives. [Emphasis added.]

…and you know who Steve Sailer is.

Here’s Weigel on Derbyshire (also the two following columns, linked above the article).

Weigel may be maintaining a valuable familiarity with these people thereby providing needed close coverage of them, or he may be pallin’ around and sympathizing. Or both.

51 HappyWarrior  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:06:11pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

Is that always their excuse whenever they’re caught being bigots? Oh “we’re not PC.” No, you’re bigots. There’s a difference between politically incorrect and being a bigot and I am tired of conservatives like Malkin using it as an excuse for their bigotry.

52 HappyWarrior  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:07:18pm

He never would have resigned if this wasn’t harped on about. Good. Heritage deserves to have their bigotry called to public attention. Richwine is the norm not the exception at that cesspool.

53 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:07:32pm

re: #49 iossarian

Just out of interest, what field is your Ph.D. in?

(I have a Ph.D. in theoretical computer science, which is really useful for getting rid of people at parties.)

Hahaha, mine is in geology. Which inevitably leads to the question about rocks or a statement that I could get a job in the oil industry. Which inevitably leads to trying to explain no, not that kind of geologist. (I studied silicate melts, AKA glass.)

The current plan is actually go to back to school to get enough computer science so I can play at software development. I decided I don’t like research.

54 Bulworth  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:08:23pm

re: #51 HappyWarrior

The “oh, we’re not PC” dodge. Complete BS. It’s really a form of denial. Some people and institutions haven’t been used to others calling them on their bullshit.

55 iossarian  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:10:14pm

re: #53 klys

Hahaha, mine is in geology. Which inevitably leads to the question about rocks or a statement that I could get a job in the oil industry. Which inevitably leads to trying to explain no, not that kind of geologist. (I studied silicate melts, AKA glass.)

The current plan is actually go to back to school to get enough computer science so I can play at software development. I decided I don’t like research.

Nice. I got out of research too - liked the teaching but that’s no way to make a living in higher ed, unfortunately.

Anyway - got to run for the weekend now - bye all.

56 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:10:27pm

re: #46 kerFuFFler

Frankly, I tend to assume that there may be some fairly minor, slight shifts in the bell curve for differing racial groups just because the likelihood that the evolutionary outcomes would come out identical after tens of thousands of years of relative genetic isolation is small. Many physiological differences are observable between races——why should the nervous system be immune to such variation?

That said, such shifts in population outcomes are meaningless when you are making any kind of decision regarding an individual———that person could fall anywhere in the range, from idiot to super-genius regardless of race, so the fact that there might be minor overall differences when populations are studied is irrelevant in almost every context. Additionally, the slight shifts between groups are negligible compared to the wide range of intelligences we see between individuals.

This reminds me of one of the better anti Bell Curve arguments —- So What.

The correct thing to do when faced with people of varying capacities is to evaluate each of them as individuals. Knowledge (real or imaginary) of a statistical correlation between IQ and race is of no use in such evaluation.

57 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:12:47pm

re: #50 wrenchwench

Good catch. I thought I caught a whiff of fellow traveler from the Weigel article on Richwine.

The way RW nutjobs write and think about race is pretty much orthogonal to the way civilized people do it.

58 HappyWarrior  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:12:54pm

re: #54 Bulworth

The “oh, we’re not PC” dodge. Complete BS. It’s really a form of denial. Some people and institutions haven’t been used to others calling them on their bullshit.

Totally. Really I am sick of that being used as an excuse especially when these same people want us to be very PC when it comes to their religious and political sensitivies. Remember how pissy they got when people made fun of the Tea Party when the Tea Party talked about tea-bagging? It’s just an excuse. As I said, there’s a difference between political incorrect and a racist dick which is what Jason Richwine falls under.

59 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:14:26pm

re: #55 iossarian

I bailed on grad school because academic research felt like it goes nowhere (despite my knowing that it is, of course, vital). But working to make a new drug or vaccine for infectious disease or cancer, and get PAID? THAT I can do.

60 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:15:37pm

re: #56 EPR-radar

This reminds me of one of the better anti Bell Curve arguments —- So What.

The correct thing to do when faced with people of varying capacities is to evaluate each of them as individuals. Knowledge (real or imaginary) of a statistical correlation between IQ and race is of no use in such evaluation.

The stupidest thing is, he could have written the whole policy suggestion (using IQ as an entry requirement) without having to dive into the scientific racism bullshit. Just deal with the correlation of high IQ to job outcomes or whatever to make the suggestion. And then the discussion would have been driven about things like, what does IQ mean and how do we control for variables and do we want to be elitist along those lines, etc.

But he apparently couldn’t resist the scientific racism angle.

61 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:15:38pm

re: #57 EPR-radar

Good catch. I thought I caught a whiff of fellow traveler from the Weigel article on Richwine.

The way RW nutjobs write and think about race is pretty much orthogonal to the way civilized people do it.

And yet they claim to be saving civilization, and upholding science fer cryin’ out loud.

62 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:16:01pm

Here’s the scribd copy of Richwine’s dissertation again if anybody missed it last night.

To address the cherry picking critique, look at Table 2.1 in chapter 2, page 26 (page 31 in the Scribd counter.) Take note that he’s using three specific years (1980, 1997, 2003) from three different math IQ tests to characterize differences in 2006 immigration fractions. There just had to be much, much more data than that available, for some reason he and his research assistants chose not to include it.

63 Varek Raith  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:16:35pm

re: #53 klys

What do you get when you mix sulfur, tungsten, and silver?

64 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:16:39pm

re: #62 goddamnedfrank

Here’s the scribd copy of Richwine’s dissertation again if anybody missed it last night.

[Embedded content]

To address the cherry picking critique, look at Table 2.1 in chapter 2, page 26 (page 31 in the Scribd counter.) Take note that he’s using three specific years (1980, 1997, 2003) from three different math IQ tests to characterize differences in 2006 immigration fractions. There just had to be much, much more data than that available, for some reason he and his research assistants chose not to include it.

I recommend having a stiff drink nearby when attempting to read the dissertation.

65 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:18:04pm

re: #63 Varek Raith

What do you get when you mix sulfur, tungsten, and silver?

Hahahaha.

I wanted to find a phase diagram for you but that’s feeling too much like actual work.

66 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:18:19pm

re: #60 klys

The stupidest thing is, he could have written the whole policy suggestion (using IQ as an entry requirement) without having to dive into the scientific racism bullshit. Just deal with the correlation of high IQ to job outcomes or whatever to make the suggestion. And then the discussion would have been driven about things like, what does IQ mean and how do we control for variables and do we want to be elitist along those lines, etc.

But he apparently couldn’t resist the scientific racism angle.

Dylan Matthews of the Washington Post dug up the dissertation. We owe him a debt of gratitude. Richwine didn’t bring up his hot topic in the Heritage report.

67 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:19:53pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

Dylan Matthews of the Washington Post dug up the dissertation. We owe him a debt of gratitude. Richwine didn’t bring up his hot topic in the Heritage report.

Agreed. He did use some of his weasel words (“high skilled” immigrants should be encouraged!) but never mentioned a word about his thesis.

Geee, I wonder why.

68 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:20:21pm

re: #60 klys

The stupidest thing is, he could have written the whole policy suggestion (using IQ as an entry requirement) without having to dive into the scientific racism bullshit. Just deal with the correlation of high IQ to job outcomes or whatever to make the suggestion. And then the discussion would have been driven about things like, what does IQ mean and how do we control for variables and do we want to be elitist along those lines, etc.

But he apparently couldn’t resist the scientific racism angle.

Even more simply, he could have dispensed with the IQ stuff entirely, and suggested a preference for high-skill immigrants. That preference would lead to all the policies he wants, but would not explicitly validate his racism.

More and more, this looks like a trial balloon to see if the immigration dispute can be used to normalize scientific racism in policy discussions. The verdict is ‘no’, for now.

69 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:20:36pm

re: #62 goddamnedfrank

P.S. If you really want to copy and paste text from Richwine’s dissertation there’s a way. Import the .pdf from Scribd and run OCR in Acrobat Pro.

70 Bulworth  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:21:04pm

re: #58 HappyWarrior

It’s a very popular form of grievance in the evangelical world from which I came. Very defensive, anti-intellectual.

71 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:23:12pm

re: #63 Varek Raith

What do you get when you mix sulfur, tungsten, and silver?

Since it’s you asking, I’m going to guess the answer is “a no-knock warrant.”

72 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:23:45pm

re: #70 Bulworth

It’s a very popular form of grievance in the evangelical world from which I came. Very defensive, anti-intellectual.

Just about everyone who has a major beef with political correctness is an unreconstructed racist, sexist and homophobe who wants to go back to the old days where this bigotry was all validated routinely in everyday life.

73 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:26:18pm

re: #72 EPR-radar

Just about everyone who has a major beef with political correctness is an unreconstructed racist, sexist and homophobe who wants to go back to the old days where this bigotry was all validated routinely in everyday life.

Yeah, when you hear

Obama is destroying the America I Grew Up In!!

that’s usually what they mean.

74 Slap  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:27:52pm

re: #52 HappyWarrior

He never would have resigned if this wasn’t harped on about. Good. Heritage deserves to have their bigotry called to public attention. Richwine is the norm not the exception at that cesspool.

Hey now. Why insult cesspools this way???????

75 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:28:52pm

Image: Jason_Richwine.jpg

76 chadu  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:29:15pm

re: #63 Varek Raith

What do you get when you mix sulfur, tungsten, and silver?

SWAg

77 Varek Raith  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:30:20pm

re: #76 chadu

SWAg

I’ll be here all night!

78 chadu  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:30:59pm
79 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:32:05pm

re: #72 EPR-radar

Just about everyone who has a major beef with political correctness is an unreconstructed racist, sexist and homophobe who wants to go back to the old days where this bigotry was all validated routinely in everyday life.

Un-PC always ends up being the privileged continuing to say shit that shows they’re privileged. Coincidentally, unprivileged people will take shit for whatever they say, and don’t get the cover of being “unPC.”

When a poor black guy get angry and says, “fuck the police” he doesn’t get to say “I’m just being un-PC” and end the discussion.

80 kerFuFFler  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:35:04pm

re: #60 klys

“The stupidest thing is, he could have written the whole policy suggestion (using IQ as an entry requirement) without having to dive into the scientific racism bullshit. ……..But he apparently couldn’t resist the scientific racism angle.”

Exactly. Funny thing is that sort of principle has been operating for a long time in immigration. But we don’t ask for IQ’s outright——-we bring in many PHD’s from foreign countries instead.

81 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:37:20pm

Apologies to those for whom this is a repeat, but a few folks didn’t see it from yesterday, so…

Perhaps the most ironic sentence in this thesis:

For example, a person’s IQ affects his likelihood of completing college, but some college graduates are not very smart.

It remains ironic. And probably the best line in the whole thing. Certainly the most honest.

82 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:42:08pm

re: #3 klys

Wingnuts, the only ‘victims’ here are the poor grad students and graduates with a Ph.D. in Public Policy from Harvard who now have to deal with the fact that everyone knows how crappy the standards in that department are.

I’m sure there are some who put in the work and cared about their research and earned the degree, and now they’re going to be painted with the same brush, because there’s no way anyone should have gotten a Ph.D. for this bullshit.

What’s awful is that great people have these degrees from Harvard.

Harvard is damaging its brand. But I doubt they care.

83 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:43:07pm

re: #5 jaunte

Jason Richwine: “No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against.”

The Heritage Foundation had better check with Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.

Rubio isn’t the best person to show as evidence. Cruz…the jury is still out.

84 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:46:27pm

re: #83 Joanne

Rubio isn’t the best person to show as evidence. Cruz…the jury is still out.

However low your opinion of them (and if it’s lower than mine you’re looking up to see the bottom), they’re both very intelligent. It would be easier to forgive or excuse them if they weren’t.

85 Stanghazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:48:49pm

re: #75 jaunte

Image: Jason_Richwine.jpg

L O L

86 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:52:50pm

re: #75 jaunte

Image: Jason_Richwine.jpg

Soto el autobus.

87 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 2:53:13pm
88 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:00:11pm

re: #29 RadicalModerate

No, Michelle Malkin is a fascist wanna-be (see her statements supporting interment of non-whites), with articles that are regularly reprinted on white nationalist sites like VDARE and Stormfront, and who rubs elbows with individuals like Jared Taylor (of American Renaissance).

How does Malkin get on Stormfront?? She’s not exactly the lily white they demand.

89 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:01:16pm

re: #81 klys

Apologies to those for whom this is a repeat, but a few folks didn’t see it from yesterday, so…

Perhaps the most ironic sentence in this thesis:

For example, a person’s IQ affects his likelihood of completing college, but some college graduates are not very smart.

It remains ironic. And probably the best line in the whole thing. Certainly the most honest.

We have no way of knowing whether Richwine is stupid or smart. It’s irrelevant to me whether he is incapable of seeing the flaws in his work, or sees them and deliberately spins the story.

The older I get, the more wary I become of using IQ (or intelligence) as a proxy for anything else. Richwine produced shoddy and fraudulent academic work to ‘earn’ a Harvard Ph.D. Opining about his intelligence or lack thereof is basically a distraction from this key point.

90 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:01:44pm

re: #88 Joanne

How does Malkin get on Stormfront?? She’s not exactly the lily white they demand.

There are mud people, and then there are mud people.

91 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:04:20pm

re: #88 Joanne

How does Malkin get on Stormfront?? She’s not exactly the lily white they demand.

Debyshire-style racism. Where East Asian is good…not as good as white but good…and in particular EA women are better than white women because they’re more feminine. So racism + sexism.

92 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:04:43pm

re: #89 EPR-radar

The older I get, the more wary I become of using IQ (or intelligence) as a proxy for anything else. Richwine produced shoddy and fraudulent academic work to ‘earn’ a Harvard Ph.D. Opining about his intelligence or lack thereof is basically a distraction from this key point.

I do think this is the biggest takeaway. I’ve checked a few places to see if there’s any pushback yet at Harvard itself, but nothing so far. I hope there will be something.

93 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:06:20pm

re: #88 Joanne

How does Malkin get on Stormfront?? She’s not exactly the lily white they demand.

She’s a beard. She and Pam Geller are beard bookends.

94 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:07:05pm

re: #92 klys

I do think this is the biggest takeaway. I’ve checked a few places to see if there’s any pushback yet at Harvard itself, but nothing so far. I hope there will be something.

Over on DailyKos, there are indications that some Harvard students are putting pressure on the administration to provide a substantive response.

95 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:09:25pm

re: #89 EPR-radar

The older I get, the more wary I become of using IQ (or intelligence) as a proxy for anything else. Richwine produced shoddy and fraudulent academic work to ‘earn’ a Harvard Ph.D. Opining about his intelligence or lack thereof is basically a distraction from this key point.

One of the smartest guys I know is also one of the most ferocious rationalizers I know.

96 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:09:55pm

re: #94 EPR-radar

Over on DailyKos, there are indications that some Harvard students are putting pressure on the administration to provide a substantive response.

They damn well should. I figure in some ways it’s still a little early to have expected to hear anything, given what I’ve experienced of universities and how they move to cover their own asses.

I imagine some of the inter-departmental politics are kind of gleeful in a schadenfreude kind of way though.

97 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:11:52pm

re: #95 GeneJockey

One of the smartest guys I know is also one of the most ferocious rationalizers I know.

An occupational hazard of being clever is being too good at rationalizations.

98 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:12:03pm

re: #63 Varek Raith

What do you get when you mix sulfur, tungsten, and silver?

Is that like .. “A priest, Rabbi and a duck walk into a bar…”? :-)

99 freetoken  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:13:36pm

Speaking of Derbyshire, it looks like National Review is running a defense of Richwine:

L’Affaire Richwine

Which includes this classic piece of sideways DARVO:

If Richwine is a racist, then so is the New York Times. Oddly, we don’t hear that charge, do we?

What is that saying about a leopard and spots?

100 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:15:08pm

re: #96 klys

They damn well should. I figure in some ways it’s still a little early to have expected to hear anything, given what I’ve experienced of universities and how they move to cover their own asses.

I imagine some of the inter-departmental politics are kind of gleeful in a schadenfreude kind of way though.

The students should be well motivated by a combination of moral outrage and the more practical issue of the reputation hit Harvard will take for this. This is the kind of thing that won’t go away easily (much to the dismay of craven bureaucrats in the administration).

101 freetoken  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:16:09pm

Perhaps NRO is defending Richwine because he is one of them?

nationalreview.com

Oh yeah, leopards… spots…

102 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:17:41pm

re: #99 freetoken

Speaking of Derbyshire, it looks like National Review is running a defense of Richwine:

L’Affaire Richwine

Which includes this classic piece of sideways DARVO:

What is that saying about a leopard and spots?

It’s amazing how it manages to run exactly right by the point. Repeatedly. Extra repeatedly.

103 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:18:27pm

What is IQ anyway and what does it measure?

Whenever you see in a movie or on TV about a stereotypical “genius” they always say “he tested off the charts.” How do you test “off the charts”? Is IQ measured by some head band and they wrap it around your head and you beam IQ into some device with a needle that records squiggly lines (like a seismograph) and if you’re a stereotypical genius that little needle will just jump “off the chart.”

Bullshit.

It’s a multiple choice TEST and like any other test you can score from 0% to 100%. The tests are graded on percentile. There is no such thing as “off the chart.”

My daughter took the test and scored very high, 99th percentile or something like that. No she has no intention of joining Mensa (which is moar bullshit). She has always been into logic puzzles and she just kept taking the test over and over until she scored an IQ of 198 or so.

BECAUSE SHE LOVES LOGIC PUZZLES.

She figured out what kind of logic puzzles these tests measure so you could say she “beat the system.”

104 freetoken  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:18:36pm

re: #102 klys

It’s amazing how it manages to run exactly right by the point. Repeatedly. Extra repeatedly.

One would say, almost intentionally.

105 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:19:23pm

re: #102 klys

It’s amazing how it manages to run exactly right by the point. Repeatedly. Extra repeatedly.

What choice does the NRO have?

If they affirm scientific racism, they lose the pretense of being a civilized outfit.

If they deny scientific racism, they lose the GOP base.

So, bafflegab to defend a fellow tribe member without actually saying anything.

106 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:19:26pm

re: #84 kirkspencer

Cruz I’m holding back opinions on. Rubio, based on his understanding of policy and discussions therein, is a moron. Where’s this intelligence you’re saying exists? I’ve never seen an exhibition of it. Ever.

107 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:19:44pm

Of course she is very brilliant anyway, having two brilliant parents. :)

108 freetoken  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:21:05pm

re: #106 Joanne

Just for the sake of clarity, Rubio did denounce the Heritage report from the beginning. Even he could smell a rat.

109 sagehen  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:21:37pm

re: #13 Sol Berdinowitz

New outrage generator: IRS-Gate

Gonna be some major butt-hurt outrage over this, and although the abuses were limited to low-level IRS workers, it will be blamed on Obama and blamed for the GOP defeat.

Isn’t that the same regional office that disclosed Joe the Plumber’s confidential tax info?

110 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:22:19pm
111 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:23:37pm

re: #94 EPR-radar

Over on DailyKos, there are indications that some Harvard students are putting pressure on the administration to provide a substantive response.

They should. It’s the reputation they’re paying the topest of top dollar for. Education, apparently, is secondary.

112 freetoken  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:25:46pm

re: #88 Joanne

How does Malkin get on Stormfront?? She’s not exactly the lily white they demand.

LBFM fantasy.

113 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:26:07pm

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

114 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:27:06pm

re: #103 Vicious Babushka

The kind of logic puzzles that end up on IQ tests correlate well with ordinary day to day puzzles seen in most occupations in a modern society. This is a sufficient explanation for the correlation between IQ test scores and success that the IQ crowd blathers on and on about. No appeal to ‘intelligence’ is needed here.

The appropriate IQ test (i.e., a test that would correlate with success) for living in a stone age jungle tribe would clearly be very different than our IQ tests. This neatly disposes of the idea that the IQ test measures anything of universal human significance.

115 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:27:25pm

re: #99 freetoken

Speaking of Derbyshire, it looks like National Review is running a defense of Richwine:

L’Affaire Richwine

Which includes this classic piece of sideways DARVO:

What is that saying about a leopard and spots?

Nice, it takes balls to make a Dreyfus reference in defense of abject bigotry.

116 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:27:40pm

re: #108 freetoken

I’m talking intelligence in general, completely aside from this controversy. I think Rubio is a shade or two above Palin in intelligence. That’s not saying much.

117 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:28:29pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

Drug tests for employment are an abomination, if one can afford to take that attitude.

118 Romantic Heretic  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:28:57pm

re: #15 The Ghost of a Flea

Also, his research barely counts as research.

When you make shitty, unjustified assumptions that effect both your design and your conclusion, then you haven’t done research. You’ve created a circular exercise in self-justification circle jerk.

FTFY.

As near as I can tell every conservative talking point these days falls under this description.

119 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:30:06pm

re: #112 freetoken

LBFM fantasy.

I didn’t think that was allowed, accepted, whatever (even taking female Asian submissiveness in to consideration).

120 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:31:41pm

Breaking news:

Heritage Foundation Fills Vacancy With Harvard-Trained Phrenologist.

121 Romantic Heretic  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:31:59pm

I’m thinking Mr. Richwine should change his last name to Weaksauce.

122 bratwurst  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:33:42pm

Just catching up on the recently renewed right wing meme that “Hitler was gay”. This is almost certainly not true, but even if it were it would say absolutely nothing about homosexuals. Hitler was DEFINITELY Austrian, but few people make the leap to suggest that this says anything about Austrians.

Of course, early Hitler supporter and head of the SA Ernst Röhm was gay, and he was not alone in that organization. However, one might think that the fact that he was jailed and killed as part of the “Night of Long Knives” in 1933, and the SA was sidelined from that point on would demonstrate how the Nazi government truly felt about homosexuals. Oh yeah…there is also that fact that an estimated 100,000 men were arrested in Germany as homosexuals between 1933 and 1945.

123 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:34:14pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

I interviewed with a new, but division of a large, consulting firm (years ago) who wanted that and a background check. I walked away. I have security clearances and would have passed a piss test, but am opposed to them for people not in positions impacting life/death.

Probably not helpful since it was years ago, but I’m with your hubby.

124 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:35:19pm

re: #118 Romantic Heretic

FTFY.

As near as I can tell every conservative talking point these days falls under this description.

Some conservative talking points are simply asserted as self evident dogma. This spares conservatives the effort of looking up the fallacy du jour in “How to Avoid Informal Fallacies in Argument”, where the examples of what not to do are taken as instructions.

125 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:35:43pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

Better to take a drug test to get on the payroll than to take one to get on food stamps.

126 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:37:25pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb

Better to take a drug test to get on the payroll than to take one to get on food stamps.

One hopes for more options.

127 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:37:57pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

One hopes for more options.

Then vote Prog.

128 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:39:57pm

re: #122 bratwurst

Just catching up on the recently renewed right wing meme that “Hitler was gay”. This is almost certainly not true, but even if it were it would say absolutely nothing about homosexuals. Hitler was DEFINITELY Austrian, but few people make the leap to suggest that this says anything about Austrians.

Of course, early Hitler supporter and head of the SA Ernst Röhm was gay, and he was not alone in that organization. However, one might think that the fact that he was jailed and killed as part of the “Night of Long Knives” in 1933, and the SA was sidelined from that point on would demonstrate how the Nazi government truly felt about homosexuals. Oh yeah…there is also that fact that an estimated 100,000 men were arrested in Germany as homosexuals between 1933 and 1945.

There’s also all the internal NSDAP communication in which Hitler and his cadre discuss how gross Rohm’s gayness was. And the many public pronouncements after the Night of the Long Knives that the purge was specifically to remove (among others) sexual degenerates from positions of influence.

There’s also the fact we know quite a lot about who Hitler banged, because psychological profiles of the guy were being generated all the way back to 1944, when his age-contemporaries were available to speak on such subjects. Shocker: Hitler was pretty sexually normal.

…but the people making these claim don’t care. Aligning stuff with Nazism is just a magical invocation of Inherent Wrongness.

129 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:41:23pm

re: #128 The Ghost of a Flea

…snip

There’s also the fact we know quite a lot about who Hitler banged, because psychological profiles of the guy were being generated all the way back to 1944, when his age-contemporaries were available to speak on such subjects. Shocker: Hitler was pretty sexually normal.

I heard he had only only one left ball.

130 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:45:22pm

re: #129 Decatur Deb

I heard he had only only one left ball.

God, did I sing “Hitler has only got one ball” a lot. British public school in the 80s…when there was a touch of nostaglia for the Blitz because the world made sense and everyone was leaning together….

A really good book is “Explaining Hitler by Ron Rosenbaum. It’s not about the man, per se, but about the attempts to understand the man and what he wrought. Both the careful analyses and the weird conspiracy theory stuff. A lot of time was devoted to spinning ideas about his sex life….

131 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:46:17pm

re: #127 Decatur Deb

Then vote Prog.

Ever chance ah get.

132 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:47:25pm

I will do my best to extend somewhat more sympathy, then.

I did suggest we could attempt to get him transferred to the English office before the sale goes through. Non-US employees are exempt from the drug test requirement.

133 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:49:08pm

re: #129 Decatur Deb

I heard he had only only one left ball.

Only Miss Peach’s son had two left balls.

134 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:51:53pm

re: #133 GeneJockey

Only Miss Peach’s son had two left balls.

Googling frantically.

135 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:52:46pm

re: #132 klys

I will do my best to extend somewhat more sympathy, then.

I did suggest we could attempt to get him transferred to the English office before the sale goes through. Non-US employees are exempt from the drug test requirement.

This kind of drug testing (assuming the testing is to catch any drug use at all, as opposed to only impairment while on the job) is basically an assertion that an employer can control the employee, even when the employee is not on the job. Way too close to the Feudal Lord thing for my taste.

136 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:53:26pm
137 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:54:02pm

re: #114 EPR-radar

The kind of logic puzzles that end up on IQ tests correlate well with ordinary day to day puzzles seen in most occupations in a modern society. This is a sufficient explanation for the correlation between IQ test scores and success that the IQ crowd blathers on and on about. No appeal to ‘intelligence’ is needed here.

The appropriate IQ test (i.e., a test that would correlate with success) for living in a stone age jungle tribe would clearly be very different than our IQ tests. This neatly disposes of the idea that the IQ test measures anything of universal human significance.

Except that there are people who are extremely successful but only moderately intelligent (say IQ measurement). However they are very skilled socially. That is a talent but it’s not something that can be measured in an “IQ test” and we have highly intelligent people who are socially very awkward.

138 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:54:27pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

I’ve worked for 5 Biotech companies, and it wasn’t until I was hired by one based on the East Coast that I had to take a drug test. I was somewhat offended, but it was late 2008 and I’d been working under contract since April, having been laid off when a previous company went under, so I really didn’t feel like I had much choice.

I figure he has several options: refuse and see if they’ll hire him anyway; acquiesce and keep silent; pass the test, take the job, and then raise a stink.

139 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:55:32pm

re: #135 EPR-radar

This kind of drug testing (assuming the testing is to catch any drug use at all, as opposed to only impairment while on the job) is basically an assertion that an employer can control the employee, even when the employee is not on the job. Way too close to the Feudal Lord thing for my taste.

I can understand that. On the other hand, it’s a one-time test at the beginning of employment - not continuous random testing throughout the time period of employment.

I agree it’s crappy, it just doesn’t ping my personal outrage meters, I guess.

140 freetoken  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:56:02pm

Rest assured, all you Baptists in Kentucky, that your denomination will enforce its doctrines upon its colleges:


Kentucky Baptists reassured by Campbellsville

Kentucky Baptist and Campbellsville University leaders issued a joint statement seeking to quell a recent controversy over the teaching of theology and evolution there. The skirmish had begun when bloggers associated with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary questioned why a conservative professor’s contract was not extended and complained that conservative views on the Bible and creationism didn’t have a place at the school, which receives funding from the convention and has its trustees approved by it.

The joint statement said:

“After a candid and transparent meeting between Kentucky Baptist leaders and representatives from Campbellsville University, we have received the assurance that those who believe the literal truthfulness of every word of the Bible are welcomed as students and as faculty members of the university. While, as a liberal arts university, a diverse faculty and curriculum are typical in higher education, CU affirms its desire to prioritize the integration of faith and learning. [….]”

The webmaster for the Kentucky Baptist Convention site also added this in the comments field:

“As the statement above outlines, we were assured that those who believe in the literal truthfulness of every word of the Bible are welcomed as both students and faculty. CU also reasserted its desire to remain a Kentucky Baptist institution and operate in accordance with the Covenant Agreement, and both parties are committed to strengthening our partnership. […] Campbellsville affirmed, however, that every member of their existing faculty professes to be a Christian and affirms God created the world.”

[…]

The earlier story (which I think I linked here some time ago):

The Kentucky affiliate of the Southern Baptist Convention is looking into complaints that one of its affiliated colleges, Campbellsville University, declined to extend the contract of a theology professor and that some of its professors teach evolution.

A task force of the Kentucky Baptist Convention — which approves Campbellsville trustee nominations and provides more than $1 million in annual funding to the school — and university representatives plan meetings in the coming weeks.

The plans come in the wake of accounts on conservative Baptist blogs that the university refused to renew the contract of Jarvis Williams, an associate professor of New Testament and Greek, beyond the coming year and told him not to apply for tenure.

Baptist conservatives — including some with connections to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville — are citing unnamed sources to allege that Williams was being sidelined because of his theology, which includes a belief that the Bible is without error in history, science or doctrine.

[…]

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is the domain of Mullah Albert Mohler, who is quite particular to a literal creationism, and is doing his best to ensure doctrinal purity throughout his domain.

Sure, you might say, that these are private schools an ought to be allowed to teach what they will.

Well, yes, I’m not arguing that the government ought to force these schools to not teach YEC. Yet it remains true that in our society these fundamentalist colleges really are turning out people intentionally shaped to ignorant and to stay that way, by enforcing the idea that asking the wrong question is just, well, wrong.

BTW, I’d be surprised if some of these students did not get government funding/backing to help them through school.

141 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:56:15pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

Googling frantically.

It should be obvious when you find it.

142 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:56:17pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

Has he been officially laid off from the old company or is the transition ostensibly seamless? In most circumstances California law only allows drug testing of new employees, not existing ones, but I’m not sure what the provisions are when a business or business unit changes hands.

Only he can determine if his principles are something he can afford. I’d be pretty annoyed at having to submit to a test to keep a current gig, but you have to gauge that against the likelihood that any other job he applies for will require the same test.

143 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:57:03pm

He’s 86 years old.

144 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:57:38pm

re: #138 GeneJockey

I’ve worked for 5 Biotech companies, and it wasn’t until I was hired by one based on the East Coast that I had to take a drug test. I was somewhat offended, but it was late 2008 and I’d been working under contract since April, having been laid off when a previous company went under, so I really didn’t feel like I had much choice.

I figure he has several options: refuse and see if they’ll hire him anyway; acquiesce and keep silent; pass the test, take the job, and then raise a stink.

We’re still waiting for the actual offer letter …over a month after they announced it… so there’s a lot still up in the air.

This just really rubbed him the wrong way today and I am doing my best to be somewhat sympathetic, but I’ve had to do them for internships in college. In both cases I only had that one option available, and for what I wanted to achieve I needed the job.

The one where they wanted a hair sample kind of ticked me off though.

145 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:58:37pm

re: #143 wrenchwench

He’s 86 years old.

..from their deathbeds.

146 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:59:02pm

re: #144 klys

We’re still waiting for the actual offer letter …over a month after they announced it… so there’s a lot still up in the air.

This just really rubbed him the wrong way today and I am doing my best to be somewhat sympathetic, but I’ve had to do them for internships in college. In both cases I only had that one option available, and for what I wanted to achieve I needed the job.

The one where they wanted a hair sample kind of ticked me off though.

Private sector fascism, one small step at a time. Most people can’t afford to take a stand over crap like this.

147 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 3:59:04pm

re: #142 goddamnedfrank

Has he been officially laid off from the old company or is the transition ostensibly seamless? In most circumstances California law only allows drug testing of new employees, not existing ones, but I’m not sure what the provisions are when a business or business unit changes hands.

Only he can determine if his principles are something he can afford. I’d be pretty annoyed at having to submit to a test to keep a current gig, but you have to gauge that against the likelihood that any other job he applies for will require the same test.

Yeah, that’s where I’m trying to gauge how common it is in the software development industry. My experience is less useful.

148 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:02:04pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

Every place I worked from 1989-2002, required a drug test. Since then, not.

149 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:02:13pm

re: #137 Vicious Babushka

Except that there are people who are extremely successful but only moderately intelligent (say IQ measurement). However they are very skilled socially. That is a talent but it’s not something that can be measured in an “IQ test” and we have highly intelligent people who are socially very awkward.

Social skills are obviously relevant to success, and are clearly not measured by an IQ test.

However, the correlation between IQ test scores and success need not be perfect to be observable.

150 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:02:16pm

re: #144 klys

The one where they wanted a hair sample kind of ticked me off though.

At least hair sample tests treat MJ users equally in the sense that they easily detect alcoholism and sporadic hard drug use too.

151 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:02:30pm

re: #147 klys

Out of curiosity, the new company - where’s it headquartered? My CA coworkers and I find a lot of cultural differences between what we’re used to from multiple employers out here, and the culture of Our New East Coast Overlords.

152 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:02:50pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

At least hair sample tests treat MJ users equally in the sense that they easily detect alcoholism and sporadic hard drug use too.

Yes, but I hate having my hair cut.

153 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:03:06pm

re: #151 GeneJockey

Out of curiosity, the new company - where’s it headquartered? My CA coworkers and I find a lot of cultural differences between what we’re used to from multiple employers out here, and the culture of Our New East Coast Overlords.

Sweden!

154 goddamnedfrank  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:03:13pm

re: #147 klys

Yeah, that’s where I’m trying to gauge how common it is in the software development industry. My experience is less useful.

Tell him to steal a bunch of shit from the office, it’ll make him feel better.

///

155 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:03:29pm

re: #152 klys

Yes, but I hate having my hair cut.

Cripes! How much did they take?

156 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:03:54pm

re: #155 GeneJockey

Cripes! How much did they take?

Not much. But I’m obsessive about it.

157 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:04:25pm

re: #156 klys

Not much. But I’m obsessive about it.

Ah.

158 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:05:05pm
159 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:05:05pm

re: #153 klys

Sweden!

That’s strange. Is it possible that there is a US regional office that made the testing mandate?

It would surprise me if a Swedish headquarters bought into the US war on drugs nonsense.

160 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:05:58pm

re: #149 EPR-radar

Social skills are obviously relevant to success, and are clearly not measured by an IQ test.

However, the correlation between IQ test scores and success need not be perfect to be observable.

My most successful kids (in terms of financial accomplishment) are very talented in “people” skills, but only average in logic-puzzle-solving skills. While my daughter, who scored so high on IQ tests and has a Master’s degree from Columbia, is still searching for a job. She fits the stereotype of a “nerd.”

161 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:07:20pm

re: #157 GeneJockey

Ah.

My last hair cut was in November. They took 7 inches or so off then. It was the first one in 3 years. At the moment it is about mid-back length.

re: #159 EPR-radar

Your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea, honestly. This came kind of out of the blue for us about a month ago - the plan had been he was going to stay with the current employer for another year or so while I finish getting me sorted out/ready for a job and then we’d see where we went from there.

Hah.

162 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:08:07pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

Like they say, you can’t make an omelette without shooting a bunch of Mayan peasants.

163 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:09:21pm

re: #161 klys

My last hair cut was in November. They took 7 inches or so off then. It was the first one in 3 years. At the moment it is about mid-back length.

My older son won’t even submit to a trim, and hasn’t for at least 5 years.

164 stabby  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:09:24pm

re: #23 geoffm33

.@ananavarro Sad. If you were a real conservative (you’re not), you’d show some respect to @michellemalkin. Malkin is a titan - who are YOU?

She’s right, in the last couple of elections the “conservatives” have bet the farm on bringing racism back - and they’re losing.

So the bigotry peddlers are the definition of “conservatism” now. I don’t know Michelle that well, but I do know that she’s an apologist for Japanese internment, so sucking up to racists is her career.

165 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:10:09pm

re: #163 GeneJockey

My older son won’t even submit to a trim, and hasn’t for at least 5 years.

Eventually it starts to look ragged and I get fed up with it.

But I won’t admit that to my mother.

166 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:11:34pm

re: #136 wrenchwench

Note that Rios-Montt was and is an ordained pentecostal minister:

In 1978, he left the Roman Catholic Church and became a minister in the California-based evangelical/pentecostal Church of the Word; since then Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have been personal friends.

167 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:11:41pm

If’n I was offered a job and they told me I had to take full spectrum once a week for the next six months, I’d take it.

I’ve been out of work for a while, and while I think such a policy stupid and an overweening display of arrogance in power they’re the ones with the power to hire me.

ON the other hand any attempt by said company’s management to play on my loyalty or sense of trust would be met with exactly the same as they gave me. Which is to say, “let me do a few tests and run it past my attorney.”

168 wrenchwench  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:12:20pm
169 stabby  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:13:09pm

re: #93 Vicious Babushka

She’s a beard. She and Pam Geller are beard bookends.

what do you mean “a beard”?

170 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:14:21pm

Mother’s Day cards finally written and ready to go into the mail (late) thanks to an incident with a plastic bin and some laundry detergent. Best laid plans, and all that.

Friendly reminder, Lizards, in case you need it. :)

171 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:14:56pm

re: #23 geoffm33

172 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:15:56pm

…why does the paper sheet of address labels have a WARNING: CHOKING HAZARD bit on the bottom?

173 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:16:49pm

re: #172 klys

…why does the paper sheet of address labels have a WARNING: CHOKING HAZARD bit on the bottom?

So they manufacturer won’t get sued when some dolt chokes on one!

174 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:17:09pm

re: #172 klys

re: #173 sattv4u2

So they manufacturer won’t get sued when some dolt chokes on one!

“”You never told me I could choke!!!”“

175 klys  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:17:43pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

So they manufacturer won’t get sued when some dolt chokes on one!

There are days I wish there was a “too lacking in common sense to live” clause.

176 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:19:08pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

So they manufacturer won’t get sued when some dolt chokes on one!

Probably in response to a case that was actually brought.

My favorite remains the warning for car windshield screens (e.g., to keep the temperature down in a parked car) —- Do not drive with the screen in place.

177 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:19:43pm

re: #172 klys

…why does the paper sheet of address labels have a WARNING: CHOKING HAZARD bit on the bottom?

because small children will chew things to include pieces of paper (ask me how I know and I’ll point to various nieces and nephews and children of friends - but not my daughter / ) and when chewed the labels will come off - and I know child cpr so the wad got spit out with a child’s heimlich.

Theoretically it’s so you’ll know to keep it either out of reach or keep an eye on the child when it’s in reach.

178 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:20:04pm

re: #169 stabby

what do you mean “a beard”?

Covers “your” real face

In the case you’re asking about, Malkin, as a minority, would give a place like Stormfront plausible deniability

“We’re not racist,, see,, we have Malkin writing here”

179 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:21:27pm

re: #176 EPR-radar

Probably in response to a case that was actually brought.

My favorite remains the warning for car windshield screens (e.g., to keep the temperature down in a parked car) —- Do not drive with the screen in place.

EXACTLY

Electric Hair Dryer,,, not to be used WHILE IN SHOWER !!

Hot Plate ,,, DO NOT TOUCH,, SURFACE GETS EXTREMELY HOT

etc

180 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:22:04pm

re: #171 JeffFX

We are the True True Scotsman.

Coincidentally, we occasionally fill out the numbers at our gatherings to discuss Scottish things with mere True Scotsmen, and occasional a True Scotsman acts as our spokesperson and we don’t dissent from his position, but let it be emphasized that only we are True True Scotsmen.

181 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:22:55pm

re: #113 klys

So, going OT here, Lizards, especially in the software industry, how common is a drug test on hiring?

My husband is morally offended that the new company will want one (his product has been bought). I, having slogged through several for a variety of internships, am having difficulty working up sympathy. Help me gauge the appropriate level of outrage?

If an employer wants to drug test employees, it’s clear that that employer is an idiot, and doesn’t respect their employees. Dangerous drugs are out of your system in days, so the tests really only test for marijuana. Reasonable people don’t care if someone is smoking pot as long as they’re not impaired on the job.

I’ve walked away from prospective employers, because I won’t work for people who don’t respect me.

182 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:25:03pm

re: #180 The Ghost of a Flea

Whatever. I think it’s important to drive a wedge between the remaining conservatives and the right-wing lunatics.

183 Interesting Times  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:25:04pm

re: #147 klys

Yeah, that’s where I’m trying to gauge how common it is in the software development industry. My experience is less useful.

My experience? No drug test, ever. I live in Canada, where we’re far too civilized for that sort of Gilded-Age fascist idiocy:

The OHRC recognizes that it is a legitimate goal for employers to have a safe workplace. One method sometimes used by employers to achieve that goal is drug and alcohol testing. However, such testing is controversial and, especially in the area of drug testing, of limited effectiveness as an indicator of impairment. It is not used to a significant degree anywhere in the world except in the United States.

It is the OHRC’s view that such testing is prima facie discriminatory and can only be used in limited circumstances. The primary reason for conducting such testing should be to measure impairment.[2] Even testing that measures impairment can be justified only if it is demonstrably connected to the performance of the job; for example, if an employee occupies a safety-sensitive position, or after significant accidents or “near-misses,” or if there is reasonable cause to believe that a person is abusing alcohol or drugs and only then as part of a larger assessment of drug and alcohol abuse. It is the OHRC’s view that by focusing on testing that actually measures impairment, especially in jobs that are safety sensitive, an appropriate balance can be struck between human rights and safety requirements, both for employees and for the public.

184 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:25:16pm

re: #181 JeffFX

If an employer wants to drug test employees, it’s clear that that employer is an idiot, and doesn’t respect their employees. Dangerous drugs are out of your system in days, so the tests really only test for marijuana. Reasonable people don’t care if someone is smoking pot as long as they’re not impaired on the job.

I’ve walked away from prospective employers, because I won’t work for people who don’t respect me.

In fairness, they can be a common sense test. If you come up positive for hard drugs on a test for which you’ve had a couple weeks warning, are you really the kind of person they need working for them?

185 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:25:28pm

re: #172 klys

…why does the paper sheet of address labels have a WARNING: CHOKING HAZARD bit on the bottom?

Why should three be a warning on 600 degree coffee not to put it between your legs? Or don’t eat the vaginal jelly? Morons.

186 Romantic Heretic  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:28:48pm

re: #51 HappyWarrior

Is that always their excuse whenever they’re caught being bigots? Oh “we’re not PC.” No, you’re bigots. There’s a difference between politically incorrect and being a bigot and I am tired of conservatives like Malkin using it as an excuse for their bigotry.

It’s been my observation that those who complain about PC are really complaining that it’s not their type of PC.

187 Interesting Times  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:29:03pm

re: #185 Joanne

Why should three be a warning on 600 degree coffee not to put it between your legs? Or don’t eat the vaginal jelly?

Some manufacturers didn’t get the memo, apparently…

188 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:30:02pm

In my experience with employees and drugs, I would have instigated testing. We had a few addicts working at our place and if they started using again, I would have wanted to know right away. The business closed down before we started anything, so it became a moot point. I was as much worried about the security of the other employees as the job performance.

189 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:31:50pm

re: #185 Joanne

Why should three be a warning on 600 degree coffee not to put it between your legs?

Because you sell it at a drive-through with a lid on and leave it to the customer to put the cream/sugar in it?

OTOH, you’re not supposed to be reading the side of the cup while driving, either.

Or don’t eat the vaginal jelly? Morons.

So you’re saying that vagina:vaginal jelly is NOT like grape:grape jelly?

//

190 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:31:56pm

re: #184 kirkspencer

In fairness, they can be a common sense test. If you come up positive for hard drugs on a test for which you’ve had a couple weeks warning, are you really the kind of person they need working for them?

I agree that coming up positive for hard drugs in a scheduled test indicates a serious problem, the problem is people will refuse to hire someone that smoked some pot on a weekend weeks before the test. I’d be able to pass a test about 48 weeks out of the year, but I’m not going to work for people who are bigoted against people who choose a safer drug than alcohol.

191 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:32:38pm

re: #185 Joanne

Why should three be a warning on 600 degree coffee not to put it between your legs? Or don’t eat the vaginal jelly? Morons.

I’m not a coffee drinker, but I suspect that the 211 degrees F coffee that McDonalds was serving was abnormally hot, and would pose much more of a hazard than a coffee drinker would normally expect from coffee.

IIRC, this was the main issue in the case, where people were getting third degree burns from ordinary accidents involving overly hot coffee. McDonalds defended this as sound business practice, since it extended the time period over which the coffee could be provided to customers. The jury was not impressed.

192 Stanghazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:32:41pm

re: #170 klys

Mother’s Day cards finally written and ready to go into the mail (late) thanks to an incident with a plastic bin and some laundry detergent. Best laid plans, and all that.

Friendly reminder, Lizards, in case you need it. :)

I got kinda ripped off by a florist. Mom sent pix and they were nice but not 79 nice. Oh well, she was thrilled. What matters.

193 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:35:11pm

re: #191 EPR-radar

I’m not a coffee drinker, but I suspect that the 211 degrees F coffee that McDonalds was serving was abnormally hot, and would pose much more of a hazard than a coffee drinker would normally expect from coffee.

IIRC, this was the main issue in the case, where people were getting third degree burns from ordinary accidents involving overly hot coffee. McDonalds defended this as sound business practice, since it extended the time period over which the coffee could be provided to customers. The jury was not impressed.

It’s the best example of a case where people with a shallow understanding of the case will think the verdict is outrageous, but people who are aware that the coffee was way too hot, and that McDonald’s knew this was the case can see that it was fair.

194 Dr Lizardo  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:36:39pm

re: #176 EPR-radar

Probably in response to a case that was actually brought.

My favorite remains the warning for car windshield screens (e.g., to keep the temperature down in a parked car) —- Do not drive with the screen in place.

Many moons ago when I worked for Sears - in the Lawn & Garden department, I asked a veteran co-worker what the deal was with the warning sticker on the lawnmower deck telling you not to place your hand under the deck while the blade was spinning.

He informed me that in the 1970s, many lawnmowers didn’t have a dead-man’s switch. One fine day, a fellow in Florida decided to use his lawnmower to trim his hedges, presumably saving a bit of time with the yard work. When he put his hand under the deck to pick it up, well……you can pretty much guess what happened. The result was a successful civil suit against Sears, the addition of a dead-man’s switch to all Sears lawnmowers, and of course, the ubiquitous warning sticker.

This was in the early 90s, and he’d been with Sears since the late 1960s. I first thought he was a grumpy SOB, but I learned a hell of a lot from him. He was one of the best people I ever worked with.

195 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:36:41pm

re: #193 JeffFX

It’s the best example of a case where people with a shallow understanding of the case will think the verdict is outrageous, but people who are aware that the coffee was way too hot, and that McDonald’s knew this was the case can see that it was fair.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the McDonalds coffee case is still a wingnut poster child for tort reform.

196 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:38:10pm

re: #190 JeffFX

I’m not so much bigoted against people who prefer a drug that is safer than alcohol, but I am inclined to reject people who break the law.

197 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:38:11pm

re: #187 Interesting Times

Some manufacturers didn’t get the memo, apparently…

Free market solutions! (Or fun stuff for adults. :-)

198 jaunte  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:39:25pm

Must be the weekend already.

SEATTLE — A man angry at his neighbors went on a rampage in a bulldozer Friday on Washington’s Olympic Peninsula, damaging four homes, knocking one off its foundation and cutting power to thousands of people, authorities said.
star-telegram.com

199 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:39:41pm

re: #194 Dr Lizardo

Many moons ago when I worked for Sears - in the Lawn & Garden department, I asked a veteran co-worker what the deal was with the warning sticker on the lawnmower deck telling you not to place your hand under the deck while the blade was spinning.

He informed me that in the 1970s, many lawnmowers didn’t have a dead-man’s switch. One fine day, a fellow in Florida decided to use his lawnmower to trim his hedges, presumably saving a bit of time with the yard work. When he put his hand under the deck to pick it up, well……you can pretty much guess what happened. The result was a successful civil suit against Sears, the addition of a dead-man’s switch to all Sears lawnmowers, and of course, the ubiquitous warning sticker.

This was in the early 90s, and he’d been with Sears since the late 1960s. I first thought he was a grumpy SOB, but I learned a hell of a lot from him. He was one of the best people I ever worked with.

I am more sympathetic to plaintiff in cases like this than I used to be, but I still find it very hard to imagine a fact pattern that could reasonably have made Sears liable here.

200 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:40:12pm

re: #189 GeneJockey

So you’re saying that vagina:vaginal jelly is NOT like grape:grape jelly?

Ask Interesting Times. :-)

201 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:40:53pm

re: #199 EPR-radar

I am more sympathetic to plaintiff in cases like this than I used to be, but I still find it very hard to imagine a fact pattern that could reasonably have made Sears liable here.

Sometimes the problem is the jury. It’s composed of people who lack the wherewithal to get out of jury duty.

202 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:41:23pm

re: #196 SteveMcGazi

I’m not so much bigoted against people who prefer a drug that is safer than alcohol, but I am inclined to reject people who break the law.

To push back on this a bit, what if you saw your employee jaywalking on a Saturday afternoon (i.e., off duty)?

203 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:42:07pm

re: #196 SteveMcGazi

Even bad law apparently. With that attitude, you’ll never benefit from my skill-set, or that of anyone else who demands respect.

204 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:43:06pm

re: #198 jaunte

Killdozer 2: Killdozer Harder.

205 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:44:04pm

re: #193 JeffFX

When you touch something that literally burns your fingertips, what would possess someone to put that burning item between their legs?

I knew of the case and McDonalds was wrong (I’m someone who puts ice in normal temp coffee), but common sense says dont stick fire next to your cooch.

206 Dr Lizardo  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:44:05pm

re: #199 EPR-radar

I am more sympathetic to plaintiff in cases like this than I used to be, but I still find it very hard to imagine a fact pattern that could reasonably have made Sears liable here.

Apparently the man who had his fingers removed argued that the machine was inherently unsafe - lacking a dead man’s switch - and that no one told him he couldn’t utilize his Craftsman mower as a hedgetrimmer.

When I was a kid, I used my dad’s Toro, and it didn’t have the dead-man’s switch. I could leave the engine running while I emptied the bag; I could just put the power-propel in neutral. I don’t think anyone makes lawnmowers like that anymore, at least not that I’m aware of.

207 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:45:33pm

re: #198 jaunte

Uhm. Wow.

208 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:46:04pm

re: #202 EPR-radar

To push back on this a bit, what if you saw your employee jaywalking on a Saturday afternoon (i.e., off duty)?

“him” walking across the street against the light or not in a crosswalk doesn’t affect his job performance
Him coming in high, drunk, hung over, ,, not so much! And where I work, you make a certain type of mistake, someone here could die (or get seriously injured)

209 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:47:12pm

re: #206 Dr Lizardo

A college friend of mine lost his hand that way as a teen. He fell off the riding mower, leaning out to dodge around a tree, but didn’t let go of the wheel, so the mower swung around and mangled his other hand.

210 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:47:45pm

re: #208 sattv4u2

We’re not talking about being impaired on the job. Steve wouldn’t hire someone who was baked on their own time weeks ago.

211 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:48:01pm

re: #202 EPR-radar

To push back on this a bit, what if you saw your employee jaywalking on a Saturday afternoon (i.e., off duty)?

Oh no. The dreaded analogy by absurdity argument. How can I possibly defeat it?
Not everybody is as convinced as you about the harmlessness of THC. In the neighborhood I worked, employees came in to work high. It wasn’t always obvious to somebody as square as me, but when other employees would complain, I was in a real bind. Intoxicated employees are a hazard to everybody in the factory. Then there are the guys who swear they’re cleaned up. The next thing you know, well a little pot never hurt anybody, right? In time, employees get ripped off, as said above, they become a hazard to everybody else.

212 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:48:25pm

re: #206 Dr Lizardo

Apparently the man who had his fingers removed argued that the machine was inherently unsafe - lacking a dead man’s switch - and that no one told him he couldn’t utilize his Craftsman mower as a hedgetrimmer.

When I was a kid, I used my dad’s Toro, and it didn’t have the dead-man’s switch. I could leave the engine running while I emptied the bag; I could just put the power-propel in neutral. I don’t think anyone makes lawnmowers like that anymore, at least not that I’m aware of.

My Craftsman riding mower (bought last year) will do that. The engine WILL cut off if I dismount while the blades are engaged OR the mower is in one of the six gears,, BUT,,, if it’s in neutral, with the blades off and the brake engaged I can get off the mower and leave it running

213 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:48:52pm

re: #205 Joanne

When you touch something that literally burns your fingertips, what would possess someone to put that burning item between their legs?

I knew of the case and McDonalds was wrong (I’m someone who puts ice in normal temp coffee), but common sense says dont stick fire next to your cooch.

That is a silly place to put coffee (not that she was planning to spill it). However, McDonalds ended up having to pay out the big bucks because plaintiff showed a pattern and practice on McDonalds part. Lots of people were getting serious burns because of this stuff, and McDonalds was settling out of court for chump change.

The cost of these settlements was less than the cost of a shorter shelf life for the coffee. I imagine that this part of the picture was especially annoying to the jury.

214 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:49:39pm

re: #203 JeffFX

Even bad law apparently. With that attitude, you’ll never benefit from my skill-set, or that of anyone else who demands respect.

I’ll get by.

215 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:50:36pm

re: #203 JeffFX

I don’t have this attitude for the hell of it. I’ve dealt with people of all sorts for thirty years.

216 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:50:47pm

re: #213 EPR-radar

That is a silly place to put coffee (not that she was planning to spill it). However, McDonalds ended up having to pay out the big bucks because plaintiff showed a pattern and practice on McDonalds part. Lots of people were getting serious burns because of this stuff, and McDonalds was settling out of court for chump change.

The cost of these settlements was less than the cost of a shorter shelf life for the coffee. I imagine that this part of the picture was especially annoying to the jury.

For a sense of where that kind of risk management thinking takes you, find a detailed history of the Ford Pinto gas tank issue.

217 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:52:19pm

re: #211 SteveMcGazi

You seem to blame problem people on THC. That makes no sense at all. If screwups didn’t have pot, they’d drink alcohol or cough syrup instead. The problem is the person, not the molecule.

Do you support the insane war on marijuana?

218 Dr Lizardo  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:53:02pm

re: #212 sattv4u2

My Craftsman riding mower (bought last year) will do that. The engine WILL cut off if I dismount while the blades are engaged OR the mower is in one of the six gears,, BUT,,, if it’s in neutral, with the blades off and the brake engaged I can get off the mower and leave it running

OK. I’m not surprised with a riding mower. Of course, it’s been over 15 years since I last worked the Lawn & Garden department and I’m sure there’s been major changes to Craftsman mowers since then.

One I liked - and bought - was a Kubota conventional lawnmower, power-propelled. Nice machine; bought it for my dad back in 1994 or so. He loved it. For about two or three years, we were selling Kubota machines alongside the Craftsman brand, but Kubota was high-end product. We also sold Lawn-Boy. Ah, the good old days.

219 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:54:38pm

re: #211 SteveMcGazi

Oh no. The dreaded analogy by absurdity argument. How can I possibly defeat it?
Not everybody is as convinced as you about the harmlessness of THC. In the neighborhood I worked, employees came in to work high. It wasn’t always obvious to somebody as square as me, but when other employees would complain, I was in a real bind. Intoxicated employees are a hazard to everybody in the factory. Then there are the guys who swear they’re cleaned up. The next thing you know, well a little pot never hurt anybody, right? In time, employees get ripped off, as said above, they become a hazard to everybody else.

These are all valid concerns. They also all relate to what is happening when people are on the job. Not a coincidence, IMO.

220 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:58:15pm
221 SteveMcGazi  Fri, May 10, 2013 4:59:37pm

re: #217 JeffFX

You seem to blame problem people on THC. That makes no sense at all. If screwups didn’t have pot, they’d drink alcohol or cough syrup instead. The problem is the person, not the molecule.

Do you support the insane war on marijuana?

Not buying that. Pot is an indicator that the people with addiction problems are going back. Also like I said above some people think that it is harmless. It isn’t. People under the influence (of anything) are a hazard. Some guys thought they can come into work high. Anyway, I gotta go, but as far as the war on marijuana, I just don’t know enough about it, but I think there’s more to it than simply calling it “insane”. I have posted previously in depth about it, and maybe sometime tonight I’ll put up an LGF page with my thoughts

222 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:00:13pm

OBAMA LET THEM DIE ON PURPOSE SO HE COULD GO TO CAMPAIGN IN LAS VEGAS!!111!!!!

Oh wait…

223 EPR-radar  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:03:32pm

re: #221 SteveMcGazi

Not buying that. Pot is an indicator that the people with addiction problems are going back. Also like I said above some people think that it is harmless. It isn’t. People under the influence (of anything) are a hazard. Some guys thought they can come into work high. Anyway, I gotta go, but as far as the war on marijuana, I just don’t know enough about it, but I think there’s more to it than simply calling it “insane”. I have posted previously in depth about it, and maybe sometime tonight I’ll put up an LGF page with my thoughts

People coming in to work drunk or high is a problem. On that we can agree.

But what if someone drinks to excess on their own time? Alcohol clears the system too quickly for any direct test to be possible, but there are indirect ways to go after this information. E.g., mandatory disclosure of medical records so that employers can check for otherwise inexplicable liver damage.

Where does it end?

224 palomino  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:04:57pm

re: #221 SteveMcGazi

Not buying that. Pot is an indicator that the people with addiction problems are going back. Also like I said above some people think that it is harmless. It isn’t. People under the influence (of anything) are a hazard. Some guys thought they can come into work high. Anyway, I gotta go, but as far as the war on marijuana, I just don’t know enough about it, but I think there’s more to it than simply calling it “insane”. I have posted previously in depth about it, and maybe sometime tonight I’ll put up an LGF page with my thoughts

Who’s saying it’s harmless? Any intoxicant is potentially dangerous. The term “harmless” usually comes up when it’s compared with alcohol, which almost certainly causes much more damage societally, and yet remains legal because we’ve decided that prohibition is actually worse. Pro-pot advocates are only asking that marijuana be treated the same way. And that the war on marijuana be severely re-calibrated so that lives aren’t ruined for mere possession and other nonviolent crimes.

225 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:10:44pm

re: #221 SteveMcGazi

Not buying that. Pot is an indicator that the people with addiction problems are going back. Also like I said above some people think that it is harmless. It isn’t. People under the influence (of anything) are a hazard. Some guys thought they can come into work high. Anyway, I gotta go, but as far as the war on marijuana, I just don’t know enough about it, but I think there’s more to it than simply calling it “insane”. I have posted previously in depth about it, and maybe sometime tonight I’ll put up an LGF page with my thoughts

If people with addiction problems are smoking put instead of using addictive drugs, I call that a win. Obviously it’s best for people who can’t control themselves to stay away from drugs completely, but that has nothing to do with the rest of us.

Of course there’s more to it, entrenched interests make big bucks from prohibition. From private prisons to court-mandated “treatment” for something that isn’t any more addictive than television. The insane part is where we let these drug war parasites enrich themselves at the expense of marijuana users.

226 Amory Blaine  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:10:52pm

Smoking pot on a camping trip does not affect performance on the job. Because people have pot in their system does not mean they come to work impaired. If you smoke pot or drink before or during work, that is a character issue.

227 BigPapa  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:14:44pm

re: #13 Sol Berdinowitz

New outrage generator: IRS-Gate

Gonna be some major butt-hurt outrage over this, and although the abuses were limited to low-level IRS workers, it will be blamed on Obama and blamed for the GOP defeat.

At this point I don’t know if I’d even qualify it as abuses.

228 sattv4u2  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:15:10pm

re: #222 Vicious Babushka

I blame Bryan Fischer!

229 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:19:15pm

re: #226 Amory Blaine

One problem is that we’ve established legal limits for blood alcohol above which an individual is considered impaired, and we have simple, easy methods for determing whether you are or are not above that limit.

IIRC, tests for THC don’t report a concentration, and even if they did, there’s not a legal limit below which one is not considered impaired. If an employee tests positive for THC, he might have gotten baked on Friday night and be totally sober by Monday, or he might have smoked up on his coffee break. How can you distinguish those?

Add to that the fact that it’s illegal in most of the United States, and you have little to stand on to argue against testing, at least in workplaces where impairment is a significant safety issue.

230 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:30:57pm

re: #229 GeneJockey

It’s not really a problem. Reasonable people judge their employees on their job performance, not the contents of their urine.

If someone is a stoner, rather than a recreational pot smoker, you can tell by the poor quality of their work and their appearance.

231 GeneJockey  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:36:55pm

re: #230 JeffFX

Not all workplaces or jobs are the same. Some depend on people being unimpaired so as not to endanger coworkers; others, not so much. It’s not always just performance or appearance, and sometime it’s not something you can tolerate even once.

My job isn’t one of those, so, yeah, the drug test felt intrusive. But I gotta eat, and so do my wife and kids.

232 kirkspencer  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:42:46pm

re: #229 GeneJockey

One problem is that we’ve established legal limits for blood alcohol above which an individual is considered impaired, and we have simple, easy methods for determing whether you are or are not above that limit.

IIRC, tests for THC don’t report a concentration, and even if they did, there’s not a legal limit below which one is not considered impaired. If an employee tests positive for THC, he might have gotten baked on Friday night and be totally sober by Monday, or he might have smoked up on his coffee break. How can you distinguish those?

Add to that the fact that it’s illegal in most of the United States, and you have little to stand on to argue against testing, at least in workplaces where impairment is a significant safety issue.

First tier is the standard set in Colorado: 5 nanograms (ng) per milliliter (ml) of blood. That’s based on the findings of O.H. Drummer, et al., “The involvement of drugs in drivers of motor vehicles killed in Australian road traffic crashes,” Accident Analysis and Prevention, 2004, 36, pp. 239-48., which basically found that at 5 ng/ml or lower the crash risk of users was functionally no worse than that of “sober” drivers. As a general guide, THC metabolizes at rates of roughly 3-4 hours per nominal joint (in comparison to the nominal one hour per nominal drink of alcohol).

The follow-on problem is that as the THC metabolizes it generates metabolites, in particular THC-COOH. These register as THC in a urinalysis, do not appear in a blood test unless specifically sought, and appear to be non-impairing residue. (Full testing still needed to confirm/deny lack of impairment, but there are a lot of indicative studies.)

This is, of course, not an issue as long as marijuana is illegal. If it becomes a matter of impairment it becomes significant. Blood tests are highly invasive (by supreme court decision) and can be resisted by 4th and 5th amendment refusals unless adequate cause and authority exists.

Summarizing: we have a working sobriety level and test. Unfortunately the test requires an invasive procedure. The other test does not measure impairment levels but instead merely whether the drug has been used in the last 30 days or so.

233 Romantic Heretic  Fri, May 10, 2013 5:56:22pm

re: #116 Joanne

I’m talking intelligence in general, completely aside from this controversy. I think Rubio is a shade or two above Palin in intelligence. That’s not saying much.

Bathroom mold is a shade or two above Palin in intelligence.

234 Romantic Heretic  Fri, May 10, 2013 6:04:21pm

re: #144 klys

We’re still waiting for the actual offer letter …over a month after they announced it… so there’s a lot still up in the air.

This just really rubbed him the wrong way today and I am doing my best to be somewhat sympathetic, but I’ve had to do them for internships in college. In both cases I only had that one option available, and for what I wanted to achieve I needed the job.

The one where they wanted a hair sample kind of ticked me off though.

I loathe drug tests because they go against one of the fundamental principles of a free country: The assumption of innocence.

235 Joanne  Fri, May 10, 2013 6:07:28pm

re: #233 Romantic Heretic

Bathroom mold is a shade or two above Palin in intelligence.

Indeed.

236 JeffFX  Fri, May 10, 2013 6:28:13pm

re: #231 GeneJockey

Not all workplaces or jobs are the same. Some depend on people being unimpaired so as not to endanger coworkers; others, not so much. It’s not always just performance or appearance, and sometime it’s not something you can tolerate even once.

I understand that. I worked on a loading dock as a teenager. You don’t want the guy driving the clamp-truck to be impaired or hung-over, he can crush you. If a company can’t afford responsible employees, a swab-test is available to randomly test for people getting high before work. There’s no need to monitor what an employee is doing on their own time.

My job isn’t one of those, so, yeah, the drug test felt intrusive. But I gotta eat, and so do my wife and kids.

If you don’t love your job, you could find work with an employer who doesn’t intrude into their prospective employees private lives. It’s a lot easier to find a new job when you’re employed. If you do love your job, a one-time drug test may be no big deal to you. A little indignity can be acceptable when it leads to a rewarding life.

237 JABaker  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:52:23am

re: #19 klys

Borjas as a PhD advisor was out to lunch. Weigel reports this:

“I have never worked on anything even remotely related to IQ, so don’t really know what to think about the relation between IQ, immigration, etc,” Borjas told me in an email.

So why did Borjas demand that Richwine talk to someone who did know something about IQ since the thesis was based on that? Dumb.

Not only that, Borjas acknowledges that IQ has a very weak relationship to economic outcome and notes that what he has observed in his own life provides anecdotal support for the lack of relationship between IQ and life success.

None the less he approved a PhD thesis the conclusion of which he claims he believed to be false. WTF did he think he was doing? It was certainly no favor to Richwine.

re: #19 klys

238 JABaker  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:05:23am

re: #54 Bulworth

They are so PC. It’s just that for them it’s PC not to be PC. PC squared.

239 JABaker  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:31:08am

re: #140 freetoken

“BTW, I’d be surprised if some of these students did not get government funding/backing to help them through INDOCTRINATION.”

FIFY

240 JABaker  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:44:03am

re: #173 sattv4u2

Not sure that that is the correct explanation. As far as I know, they’re not labeling pretzels yet.


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