Former Defense Secretary Gates: Benghazi Critics Have “Cartoonish” View of Military

Gates calls out the right wing clown car
Politics • Views: 27,689

Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates, a Bush appointee, said today on Face the Nation that some of the critics of the Obama administration’s response to the Benghazi attack have a “cartoonish impression of military capabilities and military forces.”

“Frankly, had I been in the job at the time, I think my decisions would have been just as theirs were,” said Gates, now the chancellor of the College of William and Mary.

“We don’t have a ready force standing by in the Middle East, and so getting somebody there in a timely way would have been very difficult, if not impossible.” he explained.

Suggestions that we could have flown a fighter jet over the attackers to “scare them with the noise or something,” Gates said, ignored the “number of surface to air missiles that have disappeared from [former Libyan leader] Qaddafi’s arsenals.”

“I would not have approved sending an aircraft, a single aircraft, over Benghazi under those circumstances,” he said.

Another suggestion posed by some critics of the administration, to, as Gates said, “send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, would have been very dangerous.”

“It’s sort of a cartoonish impression of military capabilities and military forces,” he said. “The one thing that our forces are noted for is planning and preparation before we send people in harm’s way, and there just wasn’t time to do that.”

Well said. A cartoonish impression of military capabilities goes along with a cartoonish world view.

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148 comments
1 Mich-again  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:22:25am

It is a common way to criticize your political opponent. Compare the outcome of actual events to a Utopian alternative reality that you dreamt up in hindsight. Just ignore all the bad things that might have happened, when you play armchair quarterback, every pass is a touchdown.

And to be fair, some opponents of the Iraq war are guilty of the same “Utopian alternative reality” tactic when they make arguments.

2 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:23:26am

It’s the “America, Fuck Yeah!” mentality that the media has spoon-fed generations of Americans, the idea that our military is a hot-and-ready force that can jump at a moment’s notice, travel at the speed of thought, and always beat the bad guy with grit, determination, and high explosives. It’s the same mentality that just put several thousand good men and women in the ground fighting two foolish wars.

3 Kragar  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:33:21am

So, the question that obviously comes to mind is simple.

Is Gates a traitor or is Obama blackmailing him to say these things?
///

4 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:33:51am

From Sun Tzu: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

I do not think the so called “Right Wing” has any idea of what is needed in information as well as hardware in stopping what happened in Benghazi.

5 Kragar  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:38:37am

re: #4 PhillyPretzel

From Sun Tzu: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

I do not think the so called “Right Wing” has any idea of what is needed in information as well as hardware in stopping what happened in Benghazi.

They don’t care what happened there. They have their own narrative and just want to keep conducting fishing expeditions to dredge up talking points.

6 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:38:51am

Pretty much everyone in the GOP, from Romney down the line, has committed themselves entirely to this Benghazi idiocy. In order to do so, they have to lie about the military, lie about the ingelligence agencies, and ignore anyone who knows what they’re talking about.

And yet it still sucks in (and more importantly for the GOP, sucks money out of) those whose furious hatred of Obama has made them already accept ignoring reality.

It is another step along the path to wrecking our government that the GOP is taking us down. It’s beginning to seem intentional, rather than just accidental.

7 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:39:29am

The perception he’s referring to reminds me of Call of Duty in a way. In a multi-player game, as you rack up multiple kills (without dying) you gain access to what are called killstreak rewards which allow you cause further carnage. These include:

A napalm strike on the battlefield
A drone gunship to help take out your enemies
A series of mortar strikes on the battlefield
An air dropped minigun turret to help you take out enemies

But the thing is, in reality, to have these things show up as quickly as they do in the game, they would have to be transported and be on standby during the incident. They wouldn’t just magically show up with the press of a button.

8 OLDHEAD  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:39:56am

It’s all theater of the absurd for the haters and the idiots who don’t need facts or reality or even truth. Just jingoistic claptrap and flinging mud. Ignore the GOP budget cuts to overseas security.

9 bratwurst  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:40:57am

I would say it has shrunken down to a pre-emptive strike on Hilary’s 2016 campaign at this point.

10 wrenchwench  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:41:00am

Gates:

”..the greatest threat to us right now is the inability of our political leaders to come together on bipartisan solutions…”

“…the American Constitution is built on compromise and created a system that depends on compromise…”

Who has made compromise a dirty word? Wingnuts who claim their opposition is evil and that they can only save America if we submit to their version of God.

We need an opposition party with whom we can compromise. Without a two way street, we have a dead end.

11 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:41:47am

re: #8 nines09

It’s all theater of the absurd for the haters and the idiots who don’t need facts or reality or even truth. Just jingoistic claptrap and flinging mud. Ignore the GOP budget cuts to overseas security.

This is really the bit that burns me up the most. They cut funding. They cut funding even when they were warned that this would impact security. And they take no responsibility for it. Because this is part of the big GOP lie that government spending that’s not directly military goes nowhere, it’s just burned in a big barrel. So they can’t even admit their own culpability in the slightest.

12 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:42:15am

re: #6 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

It’s also sucking in some of the mainstream media, who see a chance to sell some advertising around it.

13 A Mom Anon  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:42:47am

I’ve said before, these buffoons think the military is like the local fire, police or EMT, you dial 911 and someone is there within a few minutes. It’s insane and really freaking dumb.

I’ve never served in the military but I do come from a family with a tradition of military, police and even volunteer fire service. If I can figure out how stupid this whole bullshit is, there’s truly no excuse for anyone else not to be able to figure it out. Unless of course there’s some sort of benefit to lie like a dog on a rug and be willfully ignorant….

14 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:45:26am

re: #11 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

This is really the bit that burns me up the most. They cut funding. They cut funding even when they were warned that this would impact security. And they take no responsibility for it. Because this is part of the big GOP lie that government spending that’s not directly military goes nowhere, it’s just burned in a big barrel. So they can’t even admit their own culpability in the slightest.

Not only did they cut funding, not only have they refused to touch on that in any of their myriad of hearings, they’re not making any motion to correct that. Even their “whistleblowers” stated that the recommendations made to address security issues would work, contrary to the Republican insistence that such conclusions are politically biased.

15 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:45:31am

re: #12 Charles Johnson

It’s also sucking in some of the mainstream media, who see a chance to sell some advertising around it.

Yeah, I assumed they were doing their shtick of “The Democrats say the sky is blue and the Republicans say the sky is a gay robot. The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle”.

I haven’t wanted more than like 1/2 hour of actual news footage in the past year. It is no longer relevant to being informed. Kind of the opposite.

16 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:47:55am

re: #15

I haven’t wanted more than like 1/2 hour of actual news footage in the past year. It is no longer relevant to being informed. Kind of the opposite.

That’s a quote worth saving.

Perhaps we’ve reached the tipping point where you can be better informed by watching the Daily Show than by watching the news.

17 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:48:09am

re: #14 Targetpractice

Not only did they cut funding, not only have they refused to touch on that in any of their myriad of hearings, they’re not making any motion to correct that. Even their “whistleblowers” stated that the recommendations made to address security issues would work, contrary to the Republican insistence that such conclusions are politically biased.

It’s kind of like “Fast and Furious” that way, where the real scandal is that our laws against straw buys are so goddamn weak. And they still are.

It was really interesting to see the GOP wholesale abandon the previous testament that ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people’ to breathlessly report on every murder in Mexico that was or might possibly have been committed by a ‘furious’ gun.

Likewise, here, they’re abandoning the ‘listen to the military’ idea so they can focus on the one State dept guy who was vaguely kind of (but not really) saying what they wanted to hear.

18 BigPapa  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:48:44am

Budeah budeah budeah That’s The GOP Folks

19 jaunte  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:50:22am

John McCain Accuses Hillary Clinton of Benghazi Cover Up

RADDATZ: Do you blame Hillary Clinton?

MCCAIN: …I think that the secretary of State has played a role in this, and I…

RADDATZ: Do you think she had a role in those emails?

MCCAIN: …I — she had to have been in the loop some way. But, we don’t know for sure.

……………….

“…If you listen to congressional Republicans talk about Benghazi, they can’t provide any actual evidence of wrongdoing, but they all “know” that there was a cover up. What’s really happening here is that the Republican call for a select committee is really about trying to get the mainstream media to spread their Benghazi lies.”

20 Awea  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:51:54am

What is so sad, is that now if a real scandal occurs. Most people will not believe it, because of the Republicans crying wolf at everything.

21 Ming  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:52:34am

Within 2 or 3 days of the November 2006 election, when the Republicans did much worse in Congressional races than expected, George W. Bush replaced Donald Rumsfeld with Robert Gates as Defense Secretary. Part of the reason may have been pressure from Bush’s father, to get a less extreme Sec Def. Also, Rumsfeld would have faced grilling from the newly-Democratic Congress.

Obama kept Gates on as his Sec Def. I don’t know much about him, but I’ve always respected Bob Gates as a dedicated cold warrior, not “partisan” at all, and thoroughly patriotic.

For Gates to speak out, as he is now about Benghazi, really says something. His choice of words, “cartoonish view of the military”, says a lot as well.

22 Kragar  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:53:06am

There are a lot of valid questions regarding Benghazi. Questions like:

“How long is the GOP going to continue this fucking clownshow?”

23 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:53:55am

re: #19 jaunte

John McCain Accuses Hillary Clinton of Benghazi Cover Up

……………….

They’re calling for a select committee because they want a blank check for another fishing expedition, ala Whitewater. They’re sure there’s something in there, at the bottom of the garbage can, that they can conflate into a major “scandal.” As Charlie Pierce noted the other day, the only thing that kept Whitewater going for the longest time was Republican insistence that there had to be “something” Bill was hiding. And that’s all the Benghazi talk is now, the suggestion that there’s “something” President Obama wants to keep buried by refusing to be “honest” with them.

24 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:54:00am

A quote from Rick Moran’s latest. He’s PJMedia’s current sanest writer, often accused of being a RINO by their commenters… Not here though. God.

As is typical, the Heritage scholar, Jason Richwine, was not forced out solely because of controversy surrounding the report on the costs of immigration reform. Rather, it was his 2009 Harvard dissertation arguing that immigrants had a lower IQ than whites that gave liberals the ammunition to force him to resign.

Richwine’s controversial suggestion was that the US should base its immigration policy on an “IQ selection system.” Racialists on the left pounced on this impractical idea and Richwine is paying the price for his political naivete.

It doesn’t get better further on.

“Racialists on the left”

25 JeffFX  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:54:37am

re: #3 Kragar

So, the question that obviously comes to mind is simple.

Is Gates a traitor or is Obama blackmailing him to say these things?
///

You tapped right into what the wingnuts commenting at the CBS page on this are saying.

Anyone that doesn’t go along with their nonsense has no honor and is telling lies for the Obamanation. The conspiracy just grows.

26 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:54:53am

re: #22 Kragar

There are a lot of valid questions regarding Benghazi. Questions like:

“How long is the GOP going to continue this fucking clownshow?”

They kept Whitewater going all the way to November ‘00. Hell, to this day they still mutter darkly about Hillary and Vince Foster.

27 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:55:02am

WTF is wrong with these asstards? (wingnut “Mother’s Day” card to POTUS. Sickening.)

28 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:56:05am

PJ isn’t backing down on Benghazi, but most of their latest articles are on the IRS nontroversy.

29 jaunte  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:58:13am

re: #27 Vicious Babushka

“Holger Danske,” another end-times patriot fantasist.

Like Frederick Barbarossa, Saint Wenceslas and King Arthur, in Danish legend Ogier [Holger Danske] becomes a king in the mountain; he is said to dwell in the castle of Kronborg, his beard grown down to the floor. He will sleep there until some day when the country of Denmark is in peril, at which time he will rise up and save the nation. en.wikipedia.org

30 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 11:58:27am

re: #28 stabby

PJ isn’t backing down on Benghazi, but most of their latest articles are on the IRS nontroversy.

Considering the tactics of the GOP with F&F and now Benghazi, the IRS business is likely going to be chock full of hypocrisy, with the GOP trying to argue that the 501(c)(4) classification is not the subject of abuse by political groups and any Tea Party group applying for such should not have to explain why they’d be applying for tax exemption under a classification that applies strictly to social welfare groups.

31 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:02:18pm

Cultural fusion at it’s finger-lickn’ best:

Birmingham Kosher BBQ Competition


whenpigsflykosherbbq.com

32 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:02:58pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Cultural fusion at it’s finger-lickn’ best:

Birmingham Kosher BBQ Competition

whenpigsflykosherbbq.com

Whoa. Maybe my son & his family are there.

33 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:03:52pm

re: #32 Vicious Babushka

Whoa. Maybe my son & his family are there.

Next week—let them know.

34 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:04:55pm

re: #33 Decatur Deb

Next week—let them know.

They’re in Huntsville, but will probably go in for the festivities.

35 jaunte  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:06:08pm

Dana Milbank, 10/9/2012:

“…Ryan, Issa and other House Republicans voted for an amendment in 2009 to cut $1.2 billion from State operations, including funds for 300 more diplomatic security positions. Under Ryan’s budget, non-defense discretionary spending, which includes State Department funding, would be slashed nearly 20 percent in 2014, which would translate to more than $400 million in additional cuts to embassy security.”
washingtonpost.com

36 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:06:12pm

re: #34 Vicious Babushka

They’re in Huntsville, but will probably go in for the festivities.

Other opportunities:

blogs.forward.com

“Fleish Gordon”…heh.

37 A Mom Anon  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:07:27pm

Sometimes I wonder if all those anti-war protests against the war in Iraq shouldn’t have instead been directed at the major media outlets in NYC, DC and other major cities. Much of the misinformation and stupidity we’re dealing with now can be tracked back, in part at least, to REALLY shitty and lazy “journalism”.

I’m really sick of hearing the 24 hour news cycle being blamed for this too. If you’ve got time to fill then do some god damned investigative journalism FFS. Without truthful information there’s no chance in hell people can make informed decisions, which, IMHO is precisely why we’re falling into a giant mess and having one hell of a time crawling back out.

38 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:10:04pm

re: #35 jaunte

Dana Milbank, 10/9/2012:

Couldn’t get a better example of “Starve the Beast” in action, namely cutting funds until the government can’t function properly and incidents happen, then capitalize on both to call for them to be either dismantled or privatized.

39 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:11:32pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Cultural fusion at it’s finger-lickn’ best:

Birmingham Kosher BBQ Competition

whenpigsflykosherbbq.com

Whoa. Bet you can find some fine BBQ chicken at something like that. Nom nom nom!

40 Kragar  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:12:21pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

Couldn’t get a better example of “Starve the Beast” in action, namely cutting funds until the government can’t function properly and incidents happen, then capitalize on both to call for them to be either dismantled or privatized.

Damn Alinskyists.
/

41 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:15:15pm

Meanwhile, I’m wasting time in a pointless debate with a Benghazi conspiracy-monger on Twitter.

42 A Mom Anon  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:16:45pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

I’m still astounded (and I know I shouldn’t be) that people vote for people to run their government that hate the government (yet have no problem taking that paycheck from that government). It’s like hiring someone who hates kids and likes to smack them around to be your nanny.

43 sauceruney  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:17:50pm

Republicans are like the unethical cop who pulls over someone for a tail-light that isn’t busted until they smash it with their baton, and continue to harass the driver until something, anything turns up to justify their power-trip; even if they have to further plant evidence, themselves.

44 jaunte  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:18:55pm

I don’t see much reaction to Gates’ statement on the conservative blogs. They’re having a slow day today.

45 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:20:41pm

re: #43 sauceruney

Republicans are like the unethical cop who pulls over someone for a tail-light that isn’t busted until they smash it with their baton, and continues to harass the driver until something, anything turns up to justify their power-trip; even if they have to further plant evidence, themselves.

“I smell weed. Step out of the car and keep your hands where I can see them.”

46 engineer cat  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:28:23pm

benghazi

giving hillary about three years to come up with the smart crack that gets a laugh and makes anybody bringing benghazi up look ridiculous

or maybe the line that barack took at the debate being indignant about turning the deaths of four americans into partisan political fodder

what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

47 Stanghazi  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:29:03pm

Anyone watch Rectify? I just finished the first one. I like.

48 Kragar  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:33:09pm

re: #47 Stanghazi

Anyone watch Rectify? I just finished the first one. I like.

Damn near killed him.

49 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:37:26pm

re: #36 Decatur Deb

Other opportunities:

blogs.forward.com

“Fleish Gordon”…heh.

Is the competition also open to halal participants?

50 engineer cat  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:39:42pm

It’s sort of a cartoonish impression

reminds me of all the talk about how we could easily “win” the iraq war if only soldiers were allowed to shoot all the terrorists, as if they went around with “terrorist” tattooed on their foreheads

weak and naive people do tend to imagine that problems can easily be solved by enough shooting

51 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:41:34pm

re: #41 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, I’m wasting time in a pointless debate with a Benghazi conspiracy-monger on Twitter.

I somehow got included in a pointless debate that somebody else got into with some of the assholes from the stalker blog. I tweeted that person and asked her to please remove my Twitter name from their conversations. She said “I’m sorry, and now I have blocked them too, buncha morons.”

52 ProTARDISLiberal  Sun, May 12, 2013 12:56:58pm

re: #29 jaunte

What mountain in Denmark?!?

There aren’t any, most of it is a flat plain, and the islands are the same same way. The Highest point is likely a damn windmill.

53 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:01:03pm

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

What mountain in Denmark?!?

There aren’t any, most of it is a flat plain, and the islands are the same same way. The Highest point is likely a damn windmill.

A whopping 561 feet above sea level according to Wiki

54 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:07:05pm

re: #49 Vicious Babushka

Is the competition also open to halal participants?

It’s not in their FAQ—there’s a contact button on their website.

55 Kragar  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:09:43pm

One thing that has become abundantly clear to me over the last few weeks is that my grandmother, my father’s mom, is a self centered narcissistic twit with the motherlode of entitlement issues. I realize now why we’ve had so little to do with her over the last 30 or so years.

56 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:21:00pm

Good God, I think my head just exploded.

Fox “News” just reported that Kathleen Sebelius is essentially going “door to door” to health insurance companies “Begging” them to give the Admin money to help implement Obamacare.

No, I am NOT making this up.

Here’s what she’s ACTUALLY been doing:

Faced with repeated congressional interference, Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has gone to the health care industry and other civic leaders for financial help in promoting the Affordable Care Act, The Washington Post reported on Friday.

Sebelius has allegedly reached out to industry executives, church groups and advocacy organizations and asked them to donate to non-profit groups already working to promote the new healthcare law, commonly referred to as “Obamacare.” The non-profits boost awareness of the law by encouraging uninsured Americans to take part.

Also, notice the first line “repeated congressional interference”. Replace that phrase with “Republican stonewalling tactics” and you get a much better idea of what’s actually happening.

So the GOP has manufactured this problem by throwing up roadblocks in congress, then they have the nerve to criticize the admin for attempting to find other routes to get the job done.

You can’t have it both ways, jackasses.

57 Kid A  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:24:49pm

This has to be a joke account, right?

58 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:26:32pm

re: #57 Kid A

This has to be a joke account, right?

There’s been a conspiracy theory floating around for years postulating that there has, in fact, been a cancer (or AIDS) cure for some time now, but government and big pharma are keeping it under lock and key so as not to disprupt the massive profits health care companies make from treating the condition.

59 Dr Lizardo  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:28:18pm

re: #58 Eclectic Cyborg

There’s been a conspiracy theory floating around for years postulating that there has, in fact, been a cancer (or AIDS) cure for some time now, but government and big pharma are keeping it under lock and key so as not to disprupt the massive profits health care companies make from treating the condition.

Sounds like the old “gasoline from water suppressed technology” bunkum.

60 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:29:39pm

re: #59 Dr Lizardo

Sounds like the old “gasoline from water suppressed technology” bunkum.

YOU CAN MAKE ELECTRICITY AT HOME IN YOUR SPARE TIME!!11!!

61 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:34:37pm

re: #59 Dr Lizardo

Sounds like the old “gasoline from water suppressed technology” bunkum.

Or the 100 MPG engine.

62 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:35:38pm

re: #59 Dr Lizardo

Sounds like the old “gasoline from water suppressed technology” bunkum.

Not to mention the lifetime battery

63 Dr Lizardo  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:36:06pm

re: #60 Vicious Babushka

I had no idea. Where do I sign up?

//

64 Dr Lizardo  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:38:57pm

re: #61 Eclectic Cyborg

re: #62 Sol Berdinowitz

I remember the ‘miracle carburetor’ that got something like 200 MPG or something ridiculous like that. All kinds of urban legends and stories about ” things THEY don’t want you to know about”.

65 jaunte  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:39:34pm

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

What mountain in Denmark?!?

Key word: fantasist.

66 efuseakay  Sun, May 12, 2013 1:55:37pm

It’s Obama’s fault we don’t have Iron Patriot at the ready! IMPEACH HIM!!!

67 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:01:07pm

A breaking story from yahoo: A shooting at the Mother’s Day Parade. news.yahoo.com

68 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:10:42pm

re: #64 Dr Lizardo

re: #62 Sol Berdinowitz

I remember the ‘miracle carburetor’ that got something like 200 MPG or something ridiculous like that. All kinds of urban legends and stories about ” things THEY don’t want you to know about”.

consumerreports.org

69 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:20:26pm

re: #30 Targetpractice

Well if groups trying to make the poor better off re: #62 Sol Berdinowitz

Not to mention the lifetime battery

If we were allowed to run our cars off Plutonium then we might well have something like that. The problem being the many extreme dangers, plutonium being as concentrated a toxin as it is a power source.

xkcd.com

Look at that graph, Uranium fission has 2 million times the energy density as gasoline, and I know that plutonium is higher than that.

70 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:23:24pm

When they were considering a plutonium pack as a possible energy source for a pacemaker, they had to test situations that could release the plutonium.

The only tests the package failed was:
1) Being shot by a high powered rifle at point blank range
and
2) being in a high speed train collision

And for those reasons, apparently, it was not approved.

71 OLDHEAD  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:41:09pm

re: #19 jaunte

John McCain Accuses Hillary Clinton of Benghazi Cover Up

……………….

“I can’t say that she did anything wrong but I think she did just because that’s what I choose to think. I think I also pooped my pants a few minutes back too. But I don’t want to talk about that.”

72 Dr Lizardo  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:44:33pm

re: #68 sattv4u2

consumerreports.org

Heh. I’d always figured those sort of things were BS.

Whoever invented them probably made a nice chunk of change before people figured out they’d been suckered.

I remember hearing about the ‘water into gasoline’ thing from my father, and he’d heard about when he was a kid - that would’ve been the 1930s. So these urban legends have been around for a long time indeed.

73 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:45:52pm

re: #72 Dr Lizardo

The products are still on the market, and people still get suckered. It’s basically fraud.

74 Dr Lizardo  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:50:00pm

re: #73 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

The products are still on the market, and people still get suckered. It’s basically fraud.

Yeah, it is fraud, straight-up. I’ve seen them as internet ads. I’m pretty sure I saw one of them on the InfoWars website a few months ago, the Tornado, I think.

75 Varek Raith  Sun, May 12, 2013 2:52:12pm

I haz perpetual, cold fusion engine from teh webz.
Wish me luck.
:)

76 engineer cat  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:12:27pm

cold fusion

well, sometimes marriages are, well, like that

77 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:13:18pm

I’m watching Django Unchained. It’s just like Blazing Saddles but with MOAR GUNZ.

I’m enjoying it but there are some silly errors:

The movie is set in 1858, but dynamite (the stuff that GOES BOOM) wasn’t invented until 1867.
Brünnhilde was a character in Teutonic mythology
Broom-Hilda was a character in a 1960’s comic strip.
If they wanted a pseudo-Germanic name for Mrs. Django, they should have called her Lili Von Stupp.

78 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:13:48pm

Good afternoon Lizards!

Stuck here in the apartment surrounded by dozing cats due to a gout flareup. Left foot near big toe was sore yesterday, but I figured the walk might help preclude flaring up.

It didn’t. And then I also discovered I was completely out of Motrin (NSAID). Tried to put things off with and elevation, but the night was pretty much sleepless due to constant throbbing pain. Finally slipped the foot in sandal and limped out to a nearby convenience store where I was able to locate a supply of Advil. Couple of those eased things enough that I could sleep.

Now rested and just reading comments with my foot elevated.

79 freetoken  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:26:06pm

Our way too warm and dry spring continues. Poor loquats didn’t stand a chance. However, good year for mulberries.

80 Dr Lizardo  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:31:39pm

re: #77 Vicious Babushka

I’m watching Django Unchained. It’s just like Blazing Saddles but with MOAR GUNZ.

I’m enjoying it but there are some silly errors:

The movie is set in 1858, but dynamite (the stuff that GOES BOOM) wasn’t invented until 1867.
Brünnhilde was a character in Teutonic mythology
Broom-Hilda was a character in a 1960’s comic strip.
If they wanted a pseudo-Germanic name for Mrs. Django, they should have called her Lili Von Stupp.

Wait until you find out what her last name is.

81 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:32:13pm

re: #79 freetoken

Our way too warm and dry spring continues. Poor loquats didn’t stand a chance. However, good year for mulberries.

Not here

after just 4 months Atlanta is almost at it’s halfway ‘average’ for a year recorded over the past 30 years
srh.noaa.gov

And so far, it’s been a very wet May

82 ProTARDISLiberal  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:42:56pm

You know what I just found? TARDIS Mods for New Vegas.

83 A Mom Anon  Sun, May 12, 2013 3:50:27pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

In three days last week my rain gauge collected 4.25 inches of rain. Crazy. I’m just happy the stupid pollen counts are down below 200 now and the worst of that is over. Ack.

84 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:10:47pm

re: #83 A Mom Anon

In three days last week my rain gauge collected 4.25 inches of rain. Crazy. I’m just happy the stupid pollen counts are down below 200 now and the worst of that is over. Ack.

I haven’t been up around Lake Lanier yet, but I’ll bet we won’t be seeing any reports about how low it is this year

85 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:21:03pm

re: #77 Vicious Babushka

I’m watching Django Unchained. It’s just like Blazing Saddles but with MOAR GUNZ.

I’m enjoying it but there are some silly errors:

The movie is set in 1858, but dynamite (the stuff that GOES BOOM) wasn’t invented until 1867.
Brünnhilde was a character in Teutonic mythology
Broom-Hilda was a character in a 1960’s comic strip.
If they wanted a pseudo-Germanic name for Mrs. Django, they should have called her Lili Von Stupp.

Is set in 1858 and they say that is two years before the civil war.. Except for the part where Fort Sumpter was not attacked till 1861…

86 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:27:38pm

O/T but this:

littlegreenfootballs.com

I just wanted to raise awareness of it. Sorry to be so GRRR! about it, but I know these people and I empathize with what they want.

Please, check it out, and mock me at your leisure.

87 HoosierHoops  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:29:33pm

re: #77 Vicious Babushka

I’m watching Django Unchained. It’s just like Blazing Saddles but with MOAR GUNZ.

I’m enjoying it but there are some silly errors:

The movie is set in 1858, but dynamite (the stuff that GOES BOOM) wasn’t invented until 1867.
Brünnhilde was a character in Teutonic mythology
Broom-Hilda was a character in a 1960’s comic strip.
If they wanted a pseudo-Germanic name for Mrs. Django, they should have called her Lili Von Stupp.

I just queued up Django unchained for tonight’s movie.
Looking forward to viewing it.

88 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:31:39pm

re: #21 Ming

For Gates to speak out, as he is now about Benghazi, really says something. His choice of words, “cartoonish view of the military”, says a lot as well.

QFT.

89 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:36:01pm

re: #32 Vicious Babushka

Kosher BBQ?

THAT is interesting. I can play that game.

I just need to adjust the cheese finisher… VB, can I have cooked beef and serve it with goat cheese, or is that wrong?

90 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:39:56pm

re: #49 Vicious Babushka

Yeah, my thought as well. Kosher vs. Halal = FIGHT! (/mortal combat)

Seriously, both are damn tasty to this goy.

91 Stanghazi  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:46:11pm
92 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:48:47pm

re: #91 Stanghazi

{hic}

93 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:54:19pm

Evening Lizards. Late to the the show.

“Another suggestion posed by some critics of the administration, to, as Gates said, “send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, would have been very dangerous.”

Gee didn’t a past President do just that? Didn’t it end up a unmitigated disaster. Yah, lets just jump in. What could go wrong?

And that cost us how many lives?

94 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:55:51pm

Oh crap, just had an IDEA.

Now, I’m normally a Texas chili dude — meat and tomatoes and chiles (no beans!).

It’s the skins that get me (the bean skins).

Just had an idea that rocked my foundations.

What… What if I make my normal beanless-chili and add a can of refried beans? No skins. Extra protein. All stuff I like.

Shit, I need to wait until next weekend to try this. WHY DO YOU GIVE ME CULINARY IDEAS ON SUNDAY EVENING, LORD?

Heh.

95 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:57:00pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

It’s also sucking in some of the mainstream media, who see a chance to sell some advertising around it.

Said mainstream media don’t understand military matters, which makes them vulnerable to this sort of attack.

Secretary Gates said the same thing I’ve been saying: No operation to Benghazi which would have stood a proper chance of success could have been mounted with the equipment readily available in time to have done any good.

96 subterraneanhomesickalien  Sun, May 12, 2013 4:57:11pm

OT:

Some dickbag posted a plot synopsis of the new Trek movie in the films Wikipedia page.

I guess it could all be bullshit, but it seems real.

I would bet JJ Abrams is laying a fucking egg right now.

A Link for the curious and those who could give two shits if they know the ending of a film they’ve been waiting to see for four years.

97 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:00:05pm

re: #93 Bubblehead II

BTW, you should go over to Locker’s thread. Much has been posted there in answer to your comment #6 and you’d do well to reply.

98 subterraneanhomesickalien  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:00:12pm

re: #87 HoosierHoops

You should look forward to it. I thought it was his best since Pulp Fiction.

By the way is he just going to continuously make revenge films for now on?

99 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:01:20pm

re: #94 chadu

add a can of refried beans

I prefer my chili to have individual identifiable components. Adding refried beans seems as if it would be very mushy

100 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:02:00pm

re: #96 subterraneanhomesickalien

OT:

Some dickbag posted a plot synopsis of the new Trek movie in the films Wikipedia page.

I guess it could all be bullshit, but it seems real.

I would bet JJ Abrams is laying a fucking egg right now.

A Link for the curious and those who could give two shits if they know the ending of a film they’ve been waiting to see for four years.

No thanks, I’d rather go into the movie cold, aside from the trailers. I inadvertently read spoilers about Iron Man 3 and it took the fun out of the big reveal.

101 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:02:49pm

re: #96 subterraneanhomesickalien

film they’ve been waiting to see for four years.

Someone waiting for a film for four years needs a hobby

or a girlfriend

or a girlfriend with a hobby

102 subterraneanhomesickalien  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:05:29pm

re: #100 Targetpractice

I always read the synopsis before I see a movie.

I think I care more about the quality of the writing, directing, and camerawork than I do about plot details.

I do the same with books.

103 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:05:40pm

re: #89 chadu

Kosher BBQ?

THAT is interesting. I can play that game.

I just need to adjust the cheese finisher… VB, can I have cooked beef and serve it with goat cheese, or is that wrong?

If you are trying to keep kosher, then it’s not allowed to serve meat and dairy together.

If you don’t care about keeping kosher, enjoy!

I CAN HAZ CHEESECAKE.

104 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:08:28pm

re: #102 subterraneanhomesickalien

I always read the synopsis before I see a movie.

I think I care more about the quality of the writing, directing, and camerawork than I do about plot details.

I do the same with books.

Unless it’s a movie I really don’t care about, I usually try to avoid spoilers too early. It really deflates a movie when you know the big reveal before the opening credits have even started.

105 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:10:58pm

re: #96 subterraneanhomesickalien

OT:

Some dickbag posted a plot synopsis of the new Trek movie in the films Wikipedia page.

I guess it could all be bullshit, but it seems real.

I would bet JJ Abrams is laying a fucking egg right now.

A Link for the curious and those who could give two shits if they know the ending of a film they’ve been waiting to see for four years.

Eh, doesn’t matter to me. I’ve never minded “spoilers” but I know I’m odd like that. What’s there is plausible based on trailers & etc but the plot is always the least important bit of a ST movie (well, aside from whatever science they horribly abuse this time ;). How the do what they do is more entertaining.

106 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:13:31pm

re: #105 William Barnett-Lewis

Eh, doesn’t matter to me. I’ve never minded “spoilers” but I know I’m odd like that. What’s there is plausible based on trailers & etc but the plot is always the least important bit of a ST movie (well, aside from whatever science they horribly abuse this time ;). How the do what they do is more entertaining.

I’m the same way. I actually tend to like spoilers so I know if I should go see the movie.

107 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:14:55pm

Well, speaking of movies, here is a home movie that my grandparents made in 1934 at a family reunion.

It features my grandmother looking all elegant, my great-grandmother looking even MOAR elegant, and my mother playing the piano and doing headstands.

108 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:22:19pm

If you’re going to buy a Remington, why not get a big one! ;)

Large Remington

Cowboy Description

Took a walk yesterday afternoon, including taking the usual pictures. Not happy with most of the results. Sun in a bad spot and most of them are sort of washed out.

109 Targetpractice  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:26:27pm

Thing about JJ Abrams films is that the teasing is usually the big part of the movie. Stringing people along and getting them interested by putting out the little hints and then playing with fans when they inadvertently stumble on the big reveal by saying that they’re wrong. I doubt many LOST fans would have gotten into the series if they’d known just how much of a BS twist ending there would be.

110 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:27:32pm

{sigh}

dailymail.co.uk
Thousands of girls express their love for bomber in worrying online forums

111 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:32:56pm

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

BTW, you should go over to Locker’s thread. Much has been posted there in answer to your comment #6 and you’d do well to reply.

Why? I made my point well clear, perhaps crudely, but none the less. Bury him and forget him. If that offended some people, so be it. Life is hard.

// Besides, Kilgore probably enjoys my occasional forays in the bottom 10.

112 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:33:57pm

re: #96 subterraneanhomesickalien

OT:

Some dickbag posted a plot synopsis of the new Trek movie in the films Wikipedia page.

I haven’t the slightest interest in seeing the movies OR knowing what’s going to be in them. I DO like science fiction, but I’ve lost all interest in this “regimented military future utopia designed for a half hour TV program” idea.

I really loved Farscape though.

113 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:35:12pm

re: #111 Bubblehead II

the bottom 10.

Of late, it’s been more like 3 or 4 ,, max!

{yawn}

114 sattv4u2  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:35:59pm

re: #111 Bubblehead II

re: #113 sattv4u2

the bottom 10.

Of late, it’s been more like 3 or 4 ,, max!

{yawn}

As a matter of fact, at this moment, you’re doing a solo act there!!

115 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:40:49pm

re: #99 sattv4u2

I like my chili pretty stew-like, so that’s not a problem for me. I dig where you’re coming from, tho.

116 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:42:55pm

re: #103 Vicious Babushka

So, ANY meat + dairy = bad?

I thought meat from one animal and dairy from another might dodge the proscription.

If not, hell, I’ll do cow’s milk sharp cheddar as my chili finisher.

117 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:44:12pm

re: #103 Vicious Babushka

BTW, that cheesecake looks AWESOME! (Not normally a fan, but a good one is yum.)

118 ProTARDISLiberal  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:46:58pm

re: #112 stabby

That’s why I am a Whovian.

119 Stanghazi  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:48:31pm

re: #107 Vicious Babushka

I’m watching. Couple of comments

You are so lucky to have this
Glad the little girl cheered up as the film progressed..she was pissed in the beginning.
I love the adult hand reaching in and either pushing or grabbing a kid.
That was in no way a supper

120 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:49:56pm

I watched most of the Dr. Who episodes Tom Baker with and Peter Davidson, and a few of the Jon Pertwee. Obviously it’s been a while.

I’m considering taking it up again.

121 ProTARDISLiberal  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:53:51pm

re: #120 stabby

Buy one of the DVD boxsets from the revived series.

Next week is the season finale, and there will be SPOILERS!!!!!

About the New Companion, the Doctor himself, everything. So, just wait a while kick your feet up with some older seasons.

Edit: It’s called “The Name of the Doctor” for heavens sake!

122 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:55:10pm

re: #114 sattv4u2

re: #113 sattv4u2

As a matter of fact, at this moment, you’re doing a solo act there!!

Now that I think is a LGF first. I actually beat Kilgore out.

I still stand by my post. Hell, the people in Virgina don’t want him there.

BTW, would those of you who dinged me down for that post feel the same way if I had posted the same message concerning Timothy McVeigh? Curious (Lurkers) Minds want to know

123 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:57:42pm

re: #116 chadu

It says “thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk” a few times in the bible (there was a cult that did that I think).

Obviously the kosher laws don’t follow the actual scripture very closely. So if you want cheese burgers, the answer is to not hang out with any Jews more strict than Reform.

124 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 5:58:21pm

re: #107 Vicious Babushka

Well, speaking of movies, here is a home movie that my grandparents made in 1934 at a family reunion.

It features my grandmother looking all elegant, my great-grandmother looking even MOAR elegant, and my mother playing the piano and doing headstands.

[Embedded content]

Your great-grandma was a hottie, so was your grandma, and I saw your mom’s knickers when she did the headstand!

Seriously, that was awesome. Everybody smiling and happy to be together.

I need to talk to my cousin Adele, she’s the history-keeper of my mom’s side of the family. Putting film to digital like your family has done would be cool.

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:00:43pm

re: #122 Bubblehead II

Now that I think is a LGF first. I actually beat Kilgore out.

I still stand by my post. Hell, the people in Virgina don’t want him there.

They need to suck it up, for their nation’s sake.

126 Stanghazi  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:01:43pm

re: #107 Vicious Babushka

Continued….

What a video!

That birthday party! The jester/clown omg!!!

127 ProTARDISLiberal  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:04:18pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

As much as I hate it, you’re right.

128 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:07:33pm

re: #127 ProTARDISLiberal

Oh bullshit. Any cemetery that buries the terrorist will be constantly vandalized. That is thoroughly unfair to the families of the OTHER people buried there.

All cemeteries should have refused him, they should have burned his body and thrown the ashes out with the trash.

129 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:08:42pm

I don’t see “the right to be buried” written down anywhere, and for the good reason that it’s a stupid idea.

130 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:11:30pm

re: #119 Stanghazi

It looks like big Jewish families are much like big Italian families. ;)

131 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:14:19pm

re: #123 stabby

I’ve had cheeseburgers and Chinese food with Jews across the spectrum.

My favorite was” “How can you eat that eggroll? It has shrimp in it!”

Response: “No, that’s actually sea locusts.”

What the hell, all good by me.

132 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:15:42pm

re: #128 stabby

Should have buried him at sea. My opinion.

133 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:17:48pm

re: #129 stabby

It’s not a right, it’s a fucking gift.

Tamurlane doesn’t deserve it, but we as a people should provide it.

It’s what makes us better than nihilistic fuckholes like him.

134 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:21:06pm

re: #133 chadu

It’s not a right, it’s a fucking gift.

Tamurlane doesn’t deserve it, but we as a people should provide it.

It’s what makes us better than nihilistic fuckholes like him.

We bury every kind of serial killer and criminal that dies in prison, usually by handing them back to the family. This man was a citizen, technically not convicted of a crime. It’s silly to make a divisive issue over dead meat.

135 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:23:53pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

Righty-right.

136 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 6:30:39pm

re: #129 stabby

I don’t see “the right to be buried” written down anywhere, and for the good reason that it’s a stupid idea.

No, it’s not written down. But it is an unwritten rule, you shall treat the dead, regardless of the means of death, with respect. That means you put the body in the ground, with proper respect. You don’t drag it through the streets or behind a truck or string it up on a bridge. Do you wish for something else?

Stabby, Your Name Reveils you

137 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:02:22pm

re: #136 Bubblehead II

Ha ha, righteous anger that you can’t support with argument, thus you have to hallucinate straw men like “You don’t drag it through the streets or behind a truck or string it up on a bridge. Do you wish for something else?” and make your vacuous accusation more severe with an ad hominem “Stabby, Your Name Reveils you”.

138 stabby  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:05:54pm

I notice that the herd of downdingers don’t have any answer to the obvious fact that burying Tamerlan will be thoroughly disrespectful to the families of the other people buried there who will have to put up with the people who go to their cemetery to show their anger.

139 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:14:51pm

re: #126 Stanghazi

Continued….

What a video!

That birthday party! The jester/clown omg!!!

Yeah that, that blackface thing made me cringe.

But it was 1934! That guy with the mustache was ruler of Germany!

It was on 16mm for like 65 years. Then in 1999 it was converted to VHS and last week my mom sent me a VHS cassette. A guy I know at work has a VHS to DVD converted and he burned a DVD, which I just ripped and uploaded to YouTube and Facebook.

I really have to add a music track.

140 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:25:39pm

re: #137 stabby

Ha ha, righteous anger that you can’t support with argument, thus you have to hallucinate straw men like “You don’t drag it through the streets or behind a truck or string it up on a bridge. Do you wish for something else?” and make your vacuous accusation more severe with an ad hominem “Stabby, Your Name Reveils you”.

Nuff said. A worm is worm.

141 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:28:59pm

re: #137 stabby

Ha ha, righteous anger that you can’t support with argument, thus you have to hallucinate straw men like “You don’t drag it through the streets or behind a truck or string it up on a bridge. Do you wish for something else?” and make your vacuous accusation more severe with an ad hominem “Stabby, Your Name Reveils you”.

Nuff said. It speaks for its self. Lizards?

142 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:47:46pm

re: #138 stabby

Corpse needs to be planted. And was.

Horrible people in life have graves, often in our own communities.

Denied this asswipe a hole is hypocrisy.

Box him up, chuck him in, bury the fucker, and forget about him.

And that’s what happened.

I’m appalled that burying this idiot became a THING.

WT GODDAMN FUCK?

143 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:48:52pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

I’mma gonna recommend Betty Boop music.

144 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 7:49:52pm

re: #141 Bubblehead II

Nuff said. It speaks for its self. Lizards?

You’re both being assholes.

145 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 12, 2013 8:05:26pm

re: #144 chadu

You’re both being assholes.

Probably. I can live (and have) with that. Stabby, Can you? :-)

We agree, to disagree.

Some sage from some time in the past

146 Mentis Fugit  Sun, May 12, 2013 8:05:27pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

I really have to add a music track.

Don’t forget the seekrit bonus double-speed version with this playing over it.

147 chadu  Sun, May 12, 2013 8:21:36pm

re: #146 Mentis Fugit

Boo!

148 Bulworth  Mon, May 13, 2013 7:04:39am

Good on Gates for calling out the clown car. They are quite cartoonish.


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