Snowden Wanted the Washington Post to Vouch for Him With a “Foreign Embassy”

“Courage”
US News • Views: 26,747

A fascinating tidbit in the Washington Post’s latest story on NSA leaker Edward Snowden: Snowden wanted the Washington Post to publish online a cryptographic key that he could use to prove to a foreign embassy that he was the source of the documents: Code Name ‘Verax’: Snowden, in Exchanges With Post Reporter, Made Clear He Knew Risks.

He alluded to other options, aware that he had secrets of considerable financial value, but said, “I have no desire to provide raw source material to a foreign government.”

To effect his plan, Snowden asked for a guarantee that The Washington Post would publish — within 72 hours — the full text of a PowerPoint presentation describing PRISM, a top-secret surveillance program that gathered intelligence from Microsoft, Facebook, Google and other Silicon Valley giants. He also asked that The Post publish online a cryptographic key that he could use to prove to a foreign embassy that he was the document’s source.

I told him we would not make any guarantee about what we published or when. (The Post broke the story two weeks later, on Thursday. The Post sought the views of government officials about the potential harm to national security prior to publication and decided to reproduce only four of the 41 slides.)

Snowden replied succinctly, “I regret that we weren’t able to keep this project unilateral.” Shortly afterward he made contact with Glenn Greenwald of the British newspaper the Guardian.

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538 comments
1 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:17:49pm

Sounds less like a whistleblower and more like a defector.

2 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:18:33pm

More derp.

3 Lidane  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:20:32pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Sounds less like a whistleblower and more like a defector.

Which would explain the 72-hour deadline he gave the Post, and the rush move from Hawaii to Hong Kong.

I’m thinking we’re going to see some espionage charges soon.

4 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:21:11pm
publishing a cryptographic key

sounds … .I don’t know —like a spy novel.

5 jaunte  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:22:17pm
6 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:22:52pm

Speaking as someone slightly on the spectrum myself, this guy is sounding more and more autistic with everything I hear about him.

Likely computer genius

Poor academic history

inability to deal with rules and social institutions that don’t conform his own idea of how the world works

social and political skills of a turnip

7 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:23:27pm

I’d like to know how that part of his scheme was discussed with Greenwald. Obviously once he joined Snowden in HK and Snowden outed himself it would no longer be necessary, but I imagine he, at least for time, tried to keep alive his initial plan.

8 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:26:36pm

Making Marines - A Drill Instructor Story - Part 1

Youtube Video

9 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:27:26pm

Heyup!

10 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:28:24pm

Huwhat!

11 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:29:06pm

PT

12 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:29:23pm

Wake up!

13 bratwurst  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:29:35pm

Wow, there is finally indisputable evidence that Obama is checking your email!

14 Gus  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:30:13pm

Heyup!

15 Lancelot Link  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:30:17pm

So what kind of world do you want, anyway?

16 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:32:00pm

re: #13 bratwurst

Wow, there is finally indisputable evidence that Obama is checking your email!

Having worked as a sysadmin, I happen to know that all your emails are stored on the server, under your account name, in plaintext. I’ve read other people’s email when troubleshooting and it took zero effort.

Anyone who doesn’t use encryption for anything sensitive is an idiot.

17 teleskiguy  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:37:44pm
18 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:38:41pm

re: #16 Velvet Elvis

Anyone who doesn’t use encryption for anything sensitive is an idiot.

Yup.

If you use Apple Mail, here’s a good article on creating and using a self-signed certificate to sign and encrypt email: hoylen.com

Another article: arstechnica.com

You can also use PGP (or GPG) but it hasn’t been very reliable on Macs for quite a while now.

19 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:41:44pm
20 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:41:59pm

Please, somebody hold me.

buzzfeed.com

21 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:42:11pm
22 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:42:46pm

Wait, am I reading this right? There’s some filmmaker intimately involved in all this?

23 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:43:19pm

re: #22 simoom

en.wikipedia.org

Laura Poitras is an American documentary film director and producer.[1] She resides in New York City.[2] She is a 2012 MacArthur Fellow[3] and one of the initial supporters of the Freedom of the Press Foundation.

24 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:45:28pm

re: #23 simoom

So the fact that she was on both the WaPo and Guardian byline means she’s part of and filming Snowden’s… whatever it is he doing?

25 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:45:46pm

calochortus! You out there?

I have reports on silocone, mineral spirits and paper.

26 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:49:20pm

This whole business is beginning to drive me batty. On the one hand, I truly do want a serious debate about the Patriot Act, the other I want Greenwald and Snowden to answer for the mountain of bullshit they’ve sold us on towards that end.

27 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:55:16pm

re: #22 simoom

Wait, am I reading this right? There’s some filmmaker intimately involved in all this?

She apparently filmed that video of Snowden posted at the Guardian.

28 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:56:46pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Gellman implies that she’s working on some project in all of this: “I look forward to what she produces.”

29 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 9:58:28pm

Uh oh…

30 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:08:09pm

It’s New York Times vs. the Washington Post vs. the Guardian. Can I root for nobody?

31 wrenchwench  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:11:09pm

My stepbrother just liked an Edward Snowden Support Page on Facebook.

Is he still my stepbrother if our parents divorced over 30 years ago?

32 blueraven  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:12:29pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Yes

re: #31 wrenchwench

No

33 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:15:56pm

Josh Marshall posted a message from a reader that I’ve seen echoed elsewhere, which is the idea that Greenwald and Snowden have no business designating themselves as the people who should be responsible for releasing this information. They are not accountable to the American people, they are not bound by any responsibility to us, and they do not have the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision as to just how much damage they’re doing by releasing this information.

34 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:19:44pm

And now…

35 SteveMcGazi  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:21:49pm

re: #33 Targetpractice

I don’t know about Greenwald, but Snowden is certainly responsible. I’m sure he signed a non-disclosure statement when he got his security clearance.

36 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:25:41pm

re: #33 Targetpractice

According to Gellman, WaPo and the Guardian found ~90% of the slides too sensitive and damaging to national security to publish. It’s a scary thought that they also may be subject to Greenwald’s activist whims.

37 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:26:28pm

re: #36 simoom

38 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:28:12pm

re: #36 simoom

According to Gellman, WaPo and the Guardian found ~90% of the slides too sensitive and damaging to national security to publish. It’s a scary thought that they also may be subject to Greenwald’s activist whims.

Exactly. Snowden has put this information in the hands of a man not cleared to have it on the argument that he’s somehow morally obligated to release such information to the public. At least the WaPo seems to recognize that there is some shit that should be kept secret. There’s no telling just how much of this Greenwald is going to dump out in the open to satisfy his desire for attention.

39 wrenchwench  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:31:22pm

re: #36 simoom

According to Gellman, WaPo and the Guardian found ~90% of the slides too sensitive and damaging to national security to publish. It’s a scary thought that they also may be subject to Greenwald’s activist whims.


Doesn’t say they’ll need it for Greenwald’s coming stories, but could be read as an implication.

40 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:33:02pm

Anyone else get a serious power tripping vibe from Greenwald lately:


GG seems to feel that Snowden has given him the artillery he needed to wage his quixotic crusades on the US gov’t and he’s reveling in it.

41 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:34:03pm

re: #6 Velvet Elvis

Speaking as someone slightly on the spectrum myself, this guy is sounding more and more autistic with everything I hear about him.

Likely computer genius

Poor academic history

inability to deal with rules and social institutions that don’t conform his own idea of how the world works

social and political skills of a turnip

It does make you wonder. I’m on the spectrum myself.

42 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:34:12pm

re: #40 simoom

Anyone else get a serious power tripping vibe from Greenwald lately:


GG seems to feel that Snowden has given him the artillery he needed to wage his quixotic crusades on the US gov’t and he’s reveling in it.

It’s tough killing those windmills.

43 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:36:07pm

re: #40 simoom

Anyone else get a serious power tripping vibe from Greenwald lately:

GG seems to feel that Snowden has given him the artillery he needed to wage his quixotic crusades on the US gov’t and he’s reveling in it.

His egomania is raging out of control.

44 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:37:09pm

re: #40 simoom

Anyone else get a serious power tripping vibe from Greenwald lately:


GG seems to feel that Snowden has given him the artillery he needed to wage his quixotic crusades on the US gov’t and he’s reveling in it.

This has become a personal crusade, one he seems determined to take to the conclusion where he’s the one standing atop the rubble and hailed as a hero.

45 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:39:33pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

His egomania is raging out of control.

It’s weird that the Guardian is comfortable w/ it. You’d think they’d have asked him to dial back his public ego-tripping and activist tweets as they bring an obvious air of bias to the stories he does with them.

46 AlexRogan  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:39:43pm

re: #40 simoom

Anyone else get a serious power tripping vibe from Greenwald lately:


GG seems to feel that Snowden has given him the artillery he needed to wage his quixotic crusades on the US gov’t and he’s reveling in it.

In this matter, Greenwald is Julian Assange with slightly more cred and Snowden’s his Manning.

The egomania and self-important talk is exactly the same.

47 Kragar  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:40:52pm

Greenwald’s crash is going to make the Hindenburg look like a snap cap.

48 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:42:15pm

re: #46 AlexRogan

In this matter, Greenwald is Julian Assange with slightly more cred and Snowden’s his Manning.

The egomania and self-important talk is exactly the same.

Though the roles are somewhat changed, as it’s now the Manning analogue who’s trying to get himself a cushy retirement in some faraway land where he’ll be safe from US extradition, while the Assange analogue figures that his being a journalist serves as an impenetrable shield.

49 SteveMcGazi  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:42:22pm

OK I’m a little bit late to the party. It seems that people are personalizing this by going after Glenn Greenwald. Is there a reliable summary of this? Either democracy is crashing or it’s Sunday night.

50 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:48:03pm

re: #49 SteveMcGazi

OK I’m a little bit late to the party. It seems that people are personalizing this by going after Glenn Greenwald. Is there a reliable summary of this? Either democracy is crashing or it’s Sunday night.

This is about as close as I can find at the moment:

Link

51 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:48:22pm

re: #47 Kragar

Greenwald’s crash is going to make the Hindenburg look like a snap cap.

We’ll see. The media created a monster with their initial coverage of this & w/ booking Greenwald all over the place. Backing away after all these publications and reporters lionized him & his source may not be so easy. Over at Reddit, where Snowden worship is near universal, they’re planning on doing some Fourth of July march on Washington in support of him.

52 Kragar  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:49:54pm

John Malkovich Helps Save Life of Man Bleeding On Toronto Street

An Ohio tourist named Jim Walpole, 77, tripped on the sidewalk after leaving a restaurant in downtown Toronto on King Street East. Walpole slashed his throat on some scaffolding and began bleeding profusely.

According to the reports, the Oscar-nominated actor was standing outside smoking a cigarette and, hearing the cries of Walpole’s wife, rushed to the assistance of the injured man and applied pressure to the bleeding with his scarf until paramedics arrived.

“The way he was spurting I thought it was the carotid [artery] or the jugular [vein],” said Walpole’s wife Marilyn, who is a retired nurse.

53 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:51:10pm

re: #51 simoom

We’ll see. The media created a monster with their initial coverage of this & w/ booking Greenwald all over the place. Backing away after all these publications and reporters lionized him & his source may not be so easy. Over at Reddit, where Snowden worship is near universal, they’re planning on doing some Fourth of July march on Washington in support of him.

Yeah, I don’t see Greenwald in danger of a big fall. If anything, the government trying to prosecute him for any of this will just turn him into a martyr. And the media is slow to admit they fucked up, especially when they engaged in such a wild feeding frenzy such as this. No, at best they’re just going to try to do like they did with the previous “scandals”: Try to act as if they never believed the bullshit to begin with, while acting like they’re victims of the lies they swallowed gleefully while asking for seconds.

54 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:53:53pm

I think what will happen is people will look at this. Some will find outrage, others will just move on and others yet will look for a new outrage. Snowden will be yesterday’s martyr because as we saw with Manning, there’s always a new martyr. I totally expect by next month that some of the right wingers who want to put Snowden up on a pedestal will be blasting POTUS for the leak in itself.

55 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:55:16pm

bbl

56 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:56:11pm

re: #53 Targetpractice

Yeah, I don’t see Greenwald in danger of a big fall. If anything, the government trying to prosecute him for any of this will just turn him into a martyr. And the media is slow to admit they fucked up, especially when they engaged in such a wild feeding frenzy such as this. No, at best they’re just going to try to do like they did with the previous “scandals”: Try to act as if they never believed the bullshit to begin with, while acting like they’re victims of the lies they swallowed gleefully while asking for seconds.

Greenwald is a lawyer with a con-law specialty. There is nothing he wants more than to fight this out in court.

57 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 10:57:13pm

re: #56 Velvet Elvis

Greenwald is a lawyer with a con-law specialty. There is nothing he wants more than to fight this out in court.

‘course, probably relishes the idea of putting the government on trial.

58 funky chicken  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 11:06:19pm

re: #46 AlexRogan

In this matter, Greenwald is Julian Assange with slightly more cred and Snowden’s his Manning.

The egomania and self-important talk is exactly the same.

QFT

59 AlexRogan  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 11:11:47pm
60 Kragar  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 11:27:25pm

Iain Banks dies of cancer aged 59

Author Iain Banks has died aged 59, two months after announcing he had terminal cancer, his family has said.

61 simoom  Sun, Jun 9, 2013 11:42:01pm

re: #178 Kragar

My surprise, let me show you:

IRS Staff Undermine GOP Claims That White House Directed Targeting Of Conservative Groups, Top Democrat Says

Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD) — the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee — pledged to release transcripts of interviews with Internal Revenue Service (IRS) officials that Republicans insist demonstrate that the agency’s targeting of conservative groups applying for 501(c)(4) status was directed by the Obama administration.

“I wrote Chairman Issa on Thursday and I wrote to him this morning. I want those transcripts to be released,” Cummings said. “I’m willing to come on your show next week with the chairman with the transcripts if he agrees to do that. If he doesn’t, I’ll release them by the end of the week.”

Hmm, seems like Cummings went ahead and released the interview transcript:

chicagotribune.com

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Internal Revenue Service manager, who described himself as a conservative Republican, told congressional investigators that he and a local colleague decided to give conservative groups the extra scrutiny that has prompted weeks of political controversy.

In an official interview transcript released on Sunday by Democratic Representative Elijah Cummings, the manager said he and an underling set aside “Tea Party” and “patriot” groups that had applied for tax-exempt status because the organizations appeared to pose a new precedent that could affect future IRS filings.

Issa vowed to press ahead with the investigation and said the IRS manager’s comments “did not provide anything enlightening or contradict other witness accounts.”

The House oversight committee has now completed five lengthy interviews with IRS employees, including four based in the Cincinnati office where applications for tax exempt status are handled.

Cummings said congressional investigators now know what happened based on these interviews.

Investigators asked Shafer if he believed the decision to centralize the screening of Tea Party applications was intended to target “the president’s political enemies.”

“I do not believe that the screening of these cases had anything to do, other than consistency and identifying issues that needed to have further development,” the manager answered, according to a transcript released by Cummings.

Asked if he believed the White House was involved, the manager replied: “I have no reason to believe that.”

62 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 12:51:32am
63 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 1:03:36am

Pravda is having quite the time with these latest shenanigans, just look at this headline:

President Obama’s Data Harvesting Program: NSA as Pollster, PRISM as MISO

There’s a market for this stuff, of course. Strikes me as a future-shock hangover, a still residing fear of computers and all that.

64 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 1:08:06am

My current project is coming along nicely;

Dark Eldar

The Dark Eldar are the living embodiments of all that is wanton and cruel in the Eldar character. Highly intelligent and devious to the point of obsession, these piratical people revel in the physical and emotional pain of others, for feeding upon the psychic residue of suffering is the only way they can stave off the slow consumption by the Chaos God Slaanesh of their own souls. The Dark Eldar, particularly their warrior castes, are tall, lithe, white-skinned humanoids. Their alabaster skin is death-like in its pallor, for there is no true life-giving sun within their dark realm to provide colour. Their athletic bodies are defined by whipcord muscle, shaped and enhanced until they are physically stronger on average than their Craftworld Eldar counterparts, as the Dark Eldar prize physical and martial prowess highly. Yet for all their physical beauty, the Dark Eldar are still repugnant monsters. When viewed with the witch-sight of a psyker, the Dark Eldar’s black souls are revealed, for they eternally thirst only for the anguish and torment of other thinking beings in order to fill their own infinite emptiness. Unlike their Craftworld Eldar cousins, the Dark Eldar do not integrate their still powerful latent psychic abilities into their culture, and indeed have a great disdain for psykers of any kind. This is because for the Dark Eldar, the use of psychic abilities would only further draw the attention of She Who Thirsts (Slaanesh) upon them, and their souls are already at risk enough of being devoured by the Prince of Chaos.

Image: Servant_of_the_archon.jpg

65 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 1:49:07am

re: #63 freetoken

Well, yes. On one hand, computers allow us a gret deal of freedom to communicate, one can no longer suppress the flow of “undesired” information like they did in the Soviet Union.

On the other hand, computers allow governments to monitor, regulate and manipulate the behavior of their citizens in manners undreamed of by most 20th century totalitarians.

66 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 1:52:15am

What’s that old saying… The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree

Father of Ted Cruz addresses Parker County Republican Party

Political correctness has become a “malaise” in America, and it’s up to Republicans to get the country out of it, said Rafael Cruz, father of U.S. Senator Ted Cruz, who spoke at the Parker County Republican Party meeting Thursday night. He told members political correctness is destroying the country and that people can remain silent about it no longer.

“Over the last four and a half years our freedoms have been taken away by the Obama administration in the name of political correctness and that has to stop,” Cruz said. “We need to throw political correctness aside and begin speaking the truth once again with courage and stand up for what’s right.[…] ”

He also blamed church pastors across the country for “failing” their congregations for staying silent on such items as when prayer was taken out of schools and Roe v. Wade, among others.

“We can remain silent no longer,” Cruz said. “We have allowed the ungodly to lead our country for too long.”

[…]


Cruz told about leaving Cuba in the late 1950s as Fidel Castro was beginning to take power. He attended the University of Texas and returned to a different Cuba than he had grown up in. He left Cuba for a second time, never to return.

He called both the Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitutions “declarations from God.” He said quality of life and liberties have been eroded over the years.

“When schools can decide what we can put in our kids’ lunch boxes and what size soft drink we can consume, that’s a problem,” Cruz said. “Remember George Orwell’s (book) 1984, it’s here.”

Obamacare was also a main topic of Cruz’s remarks. He asked those that attended to look at countries that have socialized medicine to see how bad it is.

“Why do you think Canadians head across the border to have procedures done,” Cruz said. “In every instance under socialized medicine the quality of care has gone down. [which is clearly a false claim] …

[…]

Funny, I never heard Obama take anything away “in the name of political correctness?

His accusation that churches have been “silent” on things like abortion and prayer is ridiculous, given the unending whining on these topics from that crowd.

The son is just following in the father’s footsteps, freely God-talking and making stuff up just to engage crowds.

And his mentioning of Orwell’s book - to me it is an admission of future-shock. The world changes, and as an old man Cruz no longer has the plasticity to change with it.

67 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 2:22:01am

re: #66 freetoken

Some people cannot stop whining over the fact that Protestant Christianity is no longer the de facto and default state religion in America.

And that denying them the ability to force their beliefs on other people is tanamount to religious repression.

68 simoom  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:00:52am

I thought this was amusing. Charles Arthur is an editor for the Guardian, and this sails right over his head:

69 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:27:31am

I just can’t get over how totally uncritical the press is being about this guy, his motives, and his qualifications.

70 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:34:42am

Give me allowance once again to ascend my soap box and whine about “documentaries” made for the American television audience.

Sure, the History Channel (**cough**) and The Discovery Channel and the partially-owned-by-Murdoch NatGeoTV are well lampooned for some of their ridiculous programming, but even that old stalwart of public television, NOVA, falls into the trap of scienctainment and the need to sensationalize.

I just got around to watching Decoding The Neanderthals:

Youtube Video

What can be so annoying with NOVA programs is how formulaic they’ve become, with that same baritone narrator, sometimes ominous but always present (and apparently all knowing), leading the viewer down a particular thought-sequence as a melodrama is presented about, in this case, “the brutes of Ice Age Europe.”

Though the show includes interviews with leading researchers into Neanderthals they are forced into tightly cut out-takes to forcibly frame the melodrama as it unfolds (and as narrated continuously by that omnipresent voice).

It’s an effort to entertain.

Is that bad?

Well, if the goal is to change the viewer then maybe so. What these shows lack is the essence of science - figuring out how to ask questions, how to form questions into hypotheses, how to turn hypotheses in to theories, and how to work deductively and logically (though this NOVA show attempts to model that here and there, but it more or less leaks through and isn’t presented in the needed pedagogical manner.)

Entertainment is different than thinking as the scientific method requires.

At heart what this show, like so many others, does is preach. In essence much of American society has yet to shake off the remnants of the pew, of being told what to believe (by the authoritarian male voice) rather than be challenged to look at what they believe and try to prove it wrong (or inadequate, or incomplete, etc.)

PBS tends to be the least worst of the bunch - there are documentary makers who try to do a good job. Often when it comes to politics or society the quality is higher than tackling “science” programs, and I guess that is because doing real science is boring, while doing exposes of some cult or famous criminal are easy sells to the public and can reach a wider audience.

Analytical thinking is boring much of the time. At least to many people.

71 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:45:36am

re: #70 freetoken

The best method of teaching scientific facts and theories is not the best way of going about actually doing science, though. Sure, the documentaries are crap and could be improved, but you make a massive assumption in that the pattern of scientific inquiry is also the best form for presenting that science to people who want to learn it.

When teaching about tectonics, for example, I don’t think it really benefits to go into the history of questions and theories about plate tectonics, at least not more than perfunctorily. I can’t really think of much in that that you’d teach via following the line of question and hypothesis.

For areas that are contentious, though— which probably does include the Neanderthals— an examination of the current questions, theories, and evidence is obviously necessary to be scientifically legitimate, rather than just presenting one branch.

But I really don’t think it’s necessarily true that the best way to teach science is through taking everyone through the question/hypothesis/proof stages. Sometimes it’s very interesting and elucidative, sometimes it’s just “there were a number of theories about this, this one turned out to be true, here’s how it works”. For well-established stuff, anyway.

72 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:45:49am

re: #70 freetoken

Analytical thinking is boring much of the time. At least to many people.

You summed it up right there. For starters, it is one of the basic building blocks of learning that we have tossed overboard in favor of training students to score well on standardized tests, secondly, it does not make for good television.

But then again, a medium that is based on vivid, moving images is not going to be one to foster in-depth anything. If you want to really find out what is goin on, you just about have to read something, and lots of folks find that totally boring bast 128 characters.

73 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:52:04am

re: #72 Sol Berdinowitz

But then again, a medium that is based on vivid, moving images is not going to be one to foster in-depth anything. If you want to really find out what is goin on, you just about have to read something, and lots of folks find that totally boring bast 128 characters.

That’s really not true. There are some people who learn best by reading, some people who learn best through active discussion, some who learn best by listening to a lecture passively, some who learn best when more information is presented visually, and some who learn best through active lab-type stuff. And probably other types as well.

This is one of the main challenges to education: there are students who literally are not going to learn in a classroom. They can possibly spend years teaching themselves coping strategies so that they can, but if they instead were allowed to do interactive stuff they’d learn things better and faster. There are other kids who will do well in the classroom only if they can ask questions and have them answered in real time, and a lot of teachers just lecture and have kids save questions ‘till the end. Other kids will do well enough in any class with textbooks, because they’re great at pulling information from text, but they’ll do worse in the classes where the lecturers depart from the source material. Likewise, other kids will do excel when the lectures are in-depth and complex, but fail at the classes where it’s presented in the text.

It’s all a rich tapestry. And yes, every kid can learn to learn in different ways (except for those with functional disabilities) but they’ll literally learn less.

74 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 3:55:24am

re: #73 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

There is television as a learning tool and television as a commercial broadcast medium. The latter is not going to focus on learning, they have sponsors to satisfy, be they buyers of commerical airtime or rich donor families for public TV.

75 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:02:05am

re: #73 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Right on.
I’m a visual learner. It was hard grasping things otherwise.
BTW, I heart flow charts.
;)

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:06:32am

re: #75 Varek Raith

Right on.
I’m a visual learner. It was hard grasping things otherwise.
BTW, I heart flow charts.
;)

I like to read and can garner a lot of information that way, but to really master any procedure or routine, I need to learn it hands-on and then go read up on what I have just done and why

77 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:10:59am

re: #74 Sol Berdinowitz

Sure, sure, no issue with saying that TV in general sucks at doing this, but it’s not because of the medium, it’s because of the politics and economics surrounding the medium.

Hell, there’s a ton of books out there teaching stuff on a terrible, false, trivial level too. Or outright teaching disinformation and illogic.

78 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:12:06am

And there’s a lot of things— like protein folding— where being able to visualize it is really the best possible way to understand it.

79 AntonSirius  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:14:54am

re: #44 Targetpractice

This has become a personal crusade, one he seems determined to take to the conclusion where he’s the one standing atop the rubble and hailed as a hero.

Greenwald sees himself as Howard Roark, but he’s really Ellsworth Toohey.

80 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:35:11am

re: #20 Velvet Elvis

Please, somebody hold me.

buzzfeed.com

Dear god, he’s a Paultard.

81 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:38:40am

re: #79 AntonSirius

Greenwald sees himself as Howard Roark, but he’s really Ellsworth Toohey.

Greenwald was being celebrated by the other TV Punditry yesterday, with his TV interview getting lauded for its intelligence and articulate nature. How quickly this unravels is hard to say, but I wouldn’t be upset if he got kicked to the curb by the same club he was trying to join.

82 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:42:08am

Meanwhile, back on the crazy train…

83 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 4:57:41am

re: #63 freetoken

Pravda is having quite the time with these latest shenanigans, just look at this headline:

President Obama’s Data Harvesting Program: NSA as Pollster, PRISM as MISO

There’s a market for this stuff, of course. Strikes me as a future-shock hangover, a still residing fear of computers and all that.

Always went to Pravda when I wanted the Truth.

84 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:05:54am

Has the question been answered: how does a high school dropout get an intelligence position?

85 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:06:38am
86 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:07:54am

re: #84 Dr. Matt

Has the question been answered: how does a high school dropout get an intelligence position?

The explanation is that he joined the military after obtaining a GED but that still does not explain how he was already a “distinguished career intelligence officer” with a gig in Geneva at 23 years old.

87 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:08:52am

re: #84 Dr. Matt

Has the question been answered: how does a high school dropout get an intelligence position?

Join the military, break both legs in basic, and get an early discharge. And then when you apply for a top secret job, you do so as a veteran and your transcripts are less important…and of course you need to pass the background check.

Holy fuck? A HS Dropout passed a high sec background check?

88 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:09:00am

Hatchling incoming.

89 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:09:50am

re: #87 darthstar

Join the military, break both legs in basic, and get an early discharge. And then when you apply for a top secret job, you do so as a veteran and your transcripts are less important…and of course you need to pass the background check.

Holy fuck? A HS Dropout passed a high sec background check?

There wouldn’t have been a whole lot of background to check if he’s only like 20 years old.

90 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:10:46am
91 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:14:06am

re: #90 darthstar

The whole business is based on the principle that no one knows all of anything.

92 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:16:23am

re: #86 Vicious Babushka

The explanation is that he joined the military after obtaining a GED but that still does not explain how he was already a “distinguished career intelligence officer” with a gig in Geneva at 23 years old.

This story reeks of BS. Watching the Guardian video of this little weasel made me think he is the epitome of a libertarian concern troll. We shouldn’t be surprised that GG, king of concern trolls, helped this criminal reveal government secrets. I hope this prick shares a 6x6 with Manning for the rest of their lives.

What amazes me is that so-called libruls are actually supporting this prick. Go to Raw Story or any other left website and they are applauding his actions. WTF is wrong with this planet?!?

93 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:16:47am

Here’s a story of how you do get tagged and tracked and attract special attention at international borders:

In 2007, Zedushka and I visited the Russian Federation and spent 3 weeks in Moscow visiting our son. Our other son took a flight from JFK and together we flew from Amsterdam to Moscow. On the way back, we parted in Amsterdam, he flew to New York and we flew to Detroit.

Going through customs in Detroit, we were asked “where is the 3rd member of your party?”

Those bright shiny holographic Russian Federation visas always caught the eye of TSA even on domestic flights, until we got new passports in 2009.

Last year we visited Israel. My daughter asked me to take $9,000 of her life’s savings and deposit it into her U.S. bank account. Security in Amsterdam spotted the wad of cash in my laptop case and notified authorities in Detroit. At DTW customs they ordered me to empty the laptop case and count out all the cash, including all the leftover euros that we had (the shekels they did not care about). It came out to < $10,000 which is the amount you are legally allowed to bring back without declaring.

After that we got flagged as “potential money launderers,” so that the last time we returned from a weekend visit to Canada we were asked how much cash we had.

94 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:20:01am
95 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:23:24am

re: #89 Vicious Babushka

There wouldn’t have been a whole lot of background to check if he’s only like 20 years old.

Their standards and qualifications for an intel officer are pretty fucking low. I was looking to get a reserve commission as an intel officer in the USNR back in 2003 and as a Vet with a Master’s degree I had to justify why I could possibly qualify for such a position. Again….this story reeks.

96 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:26:24am
97 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:31:44am
98 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:37:53am
99 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:55:44am

CNN opinion headline. “special to CNN”:

Edward Snowden is a hero

100 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:56:51am

re: #84 Dr. Matt

Has the question been answered: how does a high school dropout get an intelligence position?

Perhaps he had Rep Bachmann or some other member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence vouch for him.

101 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:57:01am

So desperate our society is, for heroes.

102 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:57:16am
103 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:57:16am

re: #99 freetoken

CNN opinion headline. “special to CNN”:

Edward Snowden is a hero

DERP

104 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:58:58am

re: #99 freetoken

CNN opinion headline. “special to CNN”:

Edward Snowden is a hero

CNN - keeping up with Glenn Beck

First out of the gate Sunday was Glenn Beck, who tweeted in the late afternoon, not too long after The Guardian posted the interview with Snowden: “I think I have just read about the man for which I have waited. Earmarks of a real hero.” Shortly thereafter, another: “Courage finally. Real. Steady. Thoughtful. Transparent. Willing to accept the consequences. Inspire w/Malice toward none.” And two hours after that: “The NSA patriot leaker is just yet another chance for America to regain her moral compass and set things right. No red or blue JUST TRUTH.”

thedailybeast.com

105 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 5:59:57am

re: #102 darthstar

The above was a follow up to this:

106 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:03:13am

re: #104 darthstar

CNN - keeping up with Glenn Beck

Where he used to work.

107 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:03:32am

re: #104 darthstar

CNN - keeping up with Glenn Beck

thedailybeast.com

This whole kerfluffle is starting to look like a mysterious government agency is doing a stress-test on the credulity of the citizens of Intertubia.

108 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:18:03am

openchannel.nbcnews.com

So Brinker is still heading Komen 10 months later. A “search” is going on for her replacement, of course. Sounds more and more like an announcement to get them past the media attention, and then back to business as usual.

Though it appears that the initial decision to stiff Planned Parenthood triggered enough longterm backlash to noticeably hurt their fund raising - without affecting their CEO’s salary.

109 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:21:02am

This is not the service record that gets you a critical Intell job:

From Politico.
“His records indicate he enlisted in the Army Reserve as a Special Forces Recruit (18X) on 7 May 2004 but was discharged 28 September 2004. He did not complete any training or receive any awards,” the spokesman said.

(Also on POLITICO: Snowden leak exposes cracks in contractor system)

Records show Snowden’s birthday as June 21, 1983. The 18X is a code for an enlistment option that permits recruits to try to go directly into the Army’s Special Forces, a path previously open only to serving soldiers. Snowden told The Guardian that an injury prevented him from pursing his full Army training.

Read more: politico.com

110 A Mom Anon  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:22:03am

re: #101 freetoken

You know what sucks about that? There ARE heroes out there, a lot of them, operating quietly every single day who never get recognized. Who plug along and work against all odds to do good things, the right things, sometimes making really big sacrifices to do so.

If the media wasn’t so fucking bought and paid for lazy they could actually leave their expensive suits and air conditioned offices behind and look for those stories and tell them with dignity and class. But no, we get this nauseating, self aggrandizing bullshit that wouldn’t be news in a sane country.

111 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:22:11am

re: #92 Dr. Matt

This story reeks of BS. Watching the Guardian video of this little weasel made me think he is the epitome of a libertarian concern troll. We shouldn’t be surprised that GG, king of concern trolls, helped this criminal reveal government secrets. I hope this prick shares a 6x6 with Manning for the rest of their lives.

What amazes me is that so-called libruls are actually supporting this prick. Go to Raw Story or any other left website and they are applauding his actions. WTF is wrong with this planet?!?

Greenwald rang the dinner bell and they came a’runnin’. “Liberals” dissatisfied with the slow progress that’s been made in turning back the clock on the Bush Admin’s abuses of our rights has rankled them something fierce and, like a twisted version of all the wingnuts saying that Obama should “lead,” they think that he’s got some sort of power to just repeal the Patriot Act and related legislation without any input from Congress.

112 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:26:18am

re: #109 Decatur Deb

From Politico.

This is not the service record that gets you a critical Intell job:

“His records indicate he enlisted in the Army Reserve as a Special Forces Recruit (18X) on 7 May 2004 but was discharged 28 September 2004. He did not complete any training or receive any awards,” the spokesman said.

(Also on POLITICO: Snowden leak exposes cracks in contractor system)

Records show Snowden’s birthday as June 21, 1983. The 18X is a code for an enlistment option that permits recruits to try to go directly into the Army’s Special Forces, a path previously open only to serving soldiers. Snowden told The Guardian that an injury prevented him from pursing his full Army training.

Read more: politico.com

And the comments pretty much read like a litany of excuses, from “Politico’s trying to destroy him!” to “So what, it doesn’t prove anything!”

113 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:28:06am

re: #104 darthstar

CNN - keeping up with Glenn Beck

First out of the gate Sunday was Glenn Beck, who tweeted in the late afternoon, not too long after The Guardian posted the interview with Snowden: “I think I have just read about the man for which I have waited. Earmarks of a real hero.” Shortly thereafter, another: “Courage finally. Real. Steady. Thoughtful. Transparent. Willing to accept the consequences. Inspire w/Malice toward none.” And two hours after that: “The NSA patriot leaker is just yet another chance for America to regain her moral compass and set things right. No red or blue JUST TRUTH.

Would the carnival barker been calling the criminal traitor Snowden a “hero” if this happened on dubyah’s watch?

114 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:29:28am

*FACE PALM*

115 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:29:55am

Not even “like” mind you but WORSE.

116 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:30:09am

Pressure’s on, Issa. Transparency or embarrassment?

117 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:32:25am

re: #109 Decatur Deb

Back during 2004 when Army standards were nice and low, too.

118 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:33:49am

Goldie’s twitter feed is pretty good…she’s asking a lot of the right questions.

119 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:34:15am

re: #117 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Back during 2004 when Army standards were nice and low, too.

Yeah, but this pretty much throws a wrench in the suggestions that he could have spent time in the service as something intel related, then gone from there into CIA or related careers. This guy’s a wash-out who didn’t make it five months before he broke both legs.

120 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:35:02am

re: #117 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Back during 2004 when Army standards were nice and low, too.

Dunno, we hadn’t felt the impact of the wars or ‘moral waivers’ much yet. Suicides were already an issue.

121 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:35:41am

So, who wants to join a betting pool on the amount of time it takes before it turns out that Snowden’s story is a fraud?

122 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:36:00am
123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:36:13am

re: #120 Decatur Deb

Dunno, we hadn’t felt the impact of the wars or ‘moral waivers’ much yet. Suicides were already an issue.

The ‘special forces recruit’ thing sounds like a way for recruiting dudes to play off of ego.

I don’t think they just let you go if you fail to qualify.

124 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:36:15am

re: #119 Targetpractice

Yeah, but this pretty much throws a wrench in the suggestions that he could have spent time in the service as something intel related, then gone from there into CIA or related careers. This guy’s a wash-out who didn’t make it five months before he broke both legs.

And I don’t think he’s on a skill level with young Miles either.

125 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:37:58am

re: #102 darthstar

It will of course be an exquisitely crafted tweet, using all 140 characters (but no TweetLonger, etc), composed entirely of infinitely recursive hashtags.

126 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:38:03am

Okay…time to walk the dogs and get ready for work. It’ll be fun watching this story unravel.

127 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:38:23am

re: #121 Dr. Matt

So, who wants to join a betting pool on the amount of time it takes before it turns out that Snowden’s story is a fraud?

I’d say it’s even money that he’ll turn out to be some former desk jockey from Langley who managed to score a sweet contractor job for a higher salary.

128 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:38:55am

re: #125 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

It will of course be an exquisitely crafted tweet, using all 140 characters (but no TweetLonger, etc), composed entirely of infinitely recursive hashtags.

Challenge accepted. :) Okay…time to run.

129 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:39:23am

re: #123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The ‘special forces recruit’ thing sounds like a way for recruiting dudes to play off of ego.

I don’t think they just let you go if you fail to qualify.

He wasn’t a “special forces recruit”; he had the option to try out for the special forces. There were a bunch of guys in my company that tried out in bootcamp and they all miserably failed.

130 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:39:25am

I noticed over the weekend that the site (and Lizards) is taking troll “flak” from both the right side and left side nuts. We must be over the target since they still don’t seem to understand that the side LGF appears to be on is not right, not left, but non-idiot.

131 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:40:21am

re: #123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The ‘special forces recruit’ thing sounds like a way for recruiting dudes to play off of ego.

I don’t think they just let you go if you fail to qualify.

As I remember, the choice of MOS was guaranteed to get you into the appropriate schools if you met all other requirements and didn’t screw up Basic and AIT. If you did, you weren’t let out—you wound up in a hard-to-fill MOS where you could meet the standard. Don’t know about the broken leg story, but he wasn’t likely a Happy Trooper.

132 GunstarGreen  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:40:59am

re: #33 Targetpractice

Josh Marshall posted a message from a reader that I’ve seen echoed elsewhere, which is the idea that Greenwald and Snowden have no business designating themselves as the people who should be responsible for releasing this information. They are not accountable to the American people, they are not bound by any responsibility to us, and they do not have the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision as to just how much damage they’re doing by releasing this information.

Then… who does?

Say that there really WAS some illicit spying going on, but in the midst of its illicit uses/purposes it also had a few legitimate ones. Who’s got the right and/or responsibility to be the whistleblower on that? It’s incredibly easy to just say ‘stuff needs to be secret because turrists and reasons’ and thus excuse the government from any responsibility to its citizens whatsoever.

That’s sort of the whole point of objection to the PATRIOT act. The entire premise of it — that anything can be excused as long as we do it ‘to fight the turrists’ — is repugnant and possibly evil. Basically, the government can do pretty much whatever the hell it wants as long as it says ‘we have to do this to fight turrism’, and everything can be kept a secret from the people because ‘you don’t want the turrists to win, do you?’

This is the problem with a culture of secrecy. Once you start justifying giving the government covert power over its citizens in the name of ‘national security secrets’, where does it end? Who can expose abuses without being branded a traitor/spy for ‘revealing national security secrets’?

This is a serious issue, even if you believe that what Snowden and Greenwald have done is wrong (it likely is).

133 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:41:43am

re: #129 Dr. Matt

Well that’s what I mean. They call you a special forces recruit and then they smoke you out at the first PT test and you get to be a file clerk.

134 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:44:18am

re: #132 GunstarGreen

Then… who does?

Say that there really WAS some illicit spying going on, but in the midst of its illicit uses/purposes it also had a few legitimate ones. Who’s got the right and/or responsibility to be the whistleblower on that? It’s incredibly easy to just say ‘stuff needs to be secret because turrists and reasons’ and thus excuse the government from any responsibility to its citizens whatsoever.

That’s sort of the whole point of objection to the PATRIOT act. The entire premise of it — that anything can be excused as long as we do it ‘to fight the turrists’ — is repugnant and possibly evil. Basically, the government can do pretty much whatever the hell it wants as long as it says ‘we have to do this to fight turrism’, and everything can be kept a secret from the people because ‘you don’t want the turrists to win, do you?’

This is the problem with a culture of secrecy. Once you start justifying giving the government covert power over its citizens in the name of ‘national security secrets’, where does it end? Who can expose abuses without being branded a traitor/spy for ‘revealing national security secrets’?

This is a serious issue, even if you believe that what Snowden and Greenwald have done is wrong (it likely is).

Do you believe that the government has secrets that should be kept? Or that the government should operate under total disclosure and keep nothing secret from the public?

135 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:50:17am

re: #134 Targetpractice

Do you believe that the government has secrets that should be kept? Or that the government should operate under total disclosure and keep nothing secret from the public?

The correct answer is “neither of the extremes”. There is a necessary conflict between needed secrecy and public awareness, and this screwup is part of it. What Snowden and Manning do show is that the spook community, including contractors and the military chain of command, can both screw the pooch.

136 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:52:27am

re: #135 Decatur Deb

The correct answer is “neither of the extremes”. There is a necessary conflict between needed secrecy and public awareness, and this screwup is part of it. What Snowden and Manning do show is that the spook community, including contractors and the military chain of command, can both screw the pooch.

And that’s the point I was getting at earlier, that there is a middle ground where some secrets are kept but the public is not kept totally in the dark, and we did not elect Glen Greenwald or Edward Snowden to make the decision about where that middle ground is.

137 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:55:01am

Great Battles of the New American Revolution

After many years of threatening secession, the states began to topple in 2017 and much of the South fell into revolt. Anti-government fighters took up arms against the United States while a new government was formed in an Old Country Buffet in the Florida Panhandle. Federal policemen were fired upon and federal buildings were attacked with bombs and small arms. These attacks soon escalated into outright warfare.

It became known as the New American Revolution. After years of training and equipping and filling undeground bunkers with oats, the patriots donned their tri-corn caps and grabbed their highest-caliber rifle, which they were usually already holding, and joined the fight wherever possible. These scratch units would meet the forces of the United States in pitched battle

One such battle:

The Second Battle of the Missouri Cracker Barrel (May 11th, 2017)

Men in full ghillie suits with headset mics and shotguns took up positions in the rubble of the Cracker Barrel destroyed days earlier and began to help each other administer their insulin injections. They managed to hold out for several seconds against concerted attack from a single light armored vehicle of the US Army.

138 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 6:57:48am

re: #136 Targetpractice

And that’s the point I was getting at earlier, that there is a middle ground where some secrets are kept but the public is not kept totally in the dark, and we did not elect Glen Greenwald or Edward Snowden to make the decision about where that middle ground is.

Was away when you had an exchange about that. The fact is that both our expatriate heroes do owe their fellow citizens and our elected government some discretion. Snowden, particularly is likely to have violated a few laws and affirmations. They should both enjoy all the glory and punishment society offers them.

139 GunstarGreen  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:01:19am

re: #134 Targetpractice

Do you believe that the government has secrets that should be kept? Or that the government should operate under total disclosure and keep nothing secret from the public?

In an ideal world, there would be no secrets. But we don’t live in an ideal world. I recognize that there are some things which do need to be kept confidential. But I also recognize the incredible potential for abuse that is inherent in that confidentiality, and the need for there to be someone that can let us know when that abuse is going on without being absolutely trashed by default as a ‘traitor’.

I’m not saying Snowden is a great guy, he’s not. The way things are shaping up it looks worse and worse for him, and it’s likely he’s not done anything noble at all. But things like ‘oh look at this guy, he was a worthless Special Forces washout’ popping up even in places of otherwise reasoned discourse like LGF concerns me. There’s a lot of kneejerk that goes on with ‘traitors’, and that’s troubling. Because this time, he was likely wrong, but what about next time? What if the next person isn’t?

Who gets to make that call? Because every time this comes up, I keep seeing ‘who are they to reveal this stuff?’, and there’s never any indication that anybody is qualified to do so.

140 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:02:15am

re: #139 GunstarGreen

In an ideal world, there would be no secrets.

I don’t know what your ideal world is like, but in my ideal world that would be horrible.

141 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:04:04am

re: #139 GunstarGreen

We get to make the LGF call, in a collective howl. I expect we will sentence them to appropriate mockery and loss of karma.

142 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:06:58am

re: #139 GunstarGreen

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Here’s a simple question to ponder: Did Manning or Snowden expose anything illegal? We may not like what our government is doing, we may hate the Patriot Act, and we may hate the intel communities’ overreach. But, did these two assholes reveal anything explicitly illegal or did they simply reveal the ugly truth of our government’s capability? As stated elsewhere, we did not elect Manning, Snowden, or GG to make decisions about the security of our Nation. They are unaccountable for except for the fact that they broke the law revealing government secrets. For that, I hope they rot in jail.

143 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:07:09am

re: #133 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well that’s what I mean. They call you a special forces recruit and then they smoke you out at the first PT test and you get to be a file clerk.

Breaking both legs sounds like he made it all the way to jump training.

144 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:08:51am

re: #143 goddamnedfrank

Breaking both legs sounds like he made it all the way to jump training.

Or he slipped on ice (true story….saw it happen in bootcamp). :)

145 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:09:13am

re: #142 Dr. Matt

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Here’s a simple question to ponder: Did Manning or Snowden expose anything illegal? We may not like what our government is doing, we may hate the Patriot Act, and we may hate the intel communities overreach. But, did these two assholes reveal anything explicitly illegal or did they simply reveal the ugly truth of our government’s capability? As stated elsewhere, we did not elect Manning, Snowden, or GG to make decisions about the security of our Nation. They are unaccountable for except for the fact that they broke the law revealing government secrets. For that, I hope they rot in jail.

The jury is almost literally out on that. (This is just a blog, the courts usually meet in a building with big columns.)

146 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:10:34am

re: #123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The ‘special forces recruit’ thing sounds like a way for recruiting dudes to play off of ego.

I don’t think they just let you go if you fail to qualify.

They do if you have a psych meltdown.

147 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:10:55am

re: #139 GunstarGreen

In an ideal world, there would be no secrets. But we don’t live in an ideal world. I recognize that there are some things which do need to be kept confidential. But I also recognize the incredible potential for abuse that is inherent in that confidentiality, and the need for there to be someone that can let us know when that abuse is going on without being absolutely trashed by default as a ‘traitor’.

I’m not saying Snowden is a great guy, he’s not. The way things are shaping up it looks worse and worse for him, and it’s likely he’s not done anything noble at all. But things like ‘oh look at this guy, he was a worthless Special Forces washout’ popping up even in places of otherwise reasoned discourse like LGF concerns me. There’s a lot of kneejerk that goes on with ‘traitors’, and that’s troubling. Because this time, he was likely wrong, but what about next time? What if the next person isn’t?

Who gets to make that call? Because every time this comes up, I keep seeing ‘who are they to reveal this stuff?’, and there’s never any indication that anybody is qualified to do so.

Yet what has he revealed that we didn’t already know? That the Patriot Act and the Amendments to the FISA Act allow abuses of the powers granted to the NSA and other intelligence agencies? He’s alleged that the NSA has engaged in illegal acts, but he’s not provided any proof whatsoever. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and he has not met that burden.

148 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:12:39am

re: #142 Dr. Matt

As stated elsewhere, we did not elect Manning, Snowden, or GG to make decisions about the security of our Nation. They are unaccountable for except for the fact that they broke the law revealing government secrets. For that, I hope they rot in jail.

There’s one rather obvious and key difference between Greenwald and the other two, he never signed any oaths to safeguard those secrets. He’s a journalist and has rights well established under supreme court precedent, specifically the Pentagon Papers case NYT v. the United States. Even trying to prosecute him would have a massive chilling effect and would result in horrible blowback.

149 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:13:25am

re: #146 funky chicken

They do if you have a psych meltdown.

Possibly, but that would also bring up the question of his security background check.

150 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:14:49am

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

There’s one rather obvious and key difference between Greenwald and the other two, he never signed any oaths to safeguard those secrets. He’s a journalist and has rights well established under supreme court precedent, specifically the Pentagon Papers case NYT v. the United States. Even trying to prosecute him would have a massive chilling effect and would result in massive blowback.

He could be tried by a court of his journalist peers, judge Ben Shapiro presiding.

151 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:14:58am

re: #143 goddamnedfrank

Breaking both legs sounds like he made it all the way to jump training.

Mebbe so. I just mean that being a ‘special forces recruit’ doesn’t mean jack.

152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:15:25am

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

Unless he actively solicited this dude to go and get the stuff. But given that he shopped it around, that doesn’t seem likely.

153 GunstarGreen  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:15:37am

re: #142 Dr. Matt

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Here’s a simple question to ponder: Did Manning or Snowden expose anything illegal? We may not like what our government is doing, we may hate the Patriot Act, and we may hate the intel communities overreach. But, did these two assholes reveal anything explicitly illegal or did they simply reveal the ugly truth of our government’s capability? As stated elsewhere, we did not elect Manning, Snowden, or GG to make decisions about the security of our Nation. They are unaccountable for except for the fact that they broke the law revealing government secrets. For that, I hope they rot in jail.

But the government makes the laws. To say that there’s ‘nothing illegal’ is technically true, but it’s not very useful when the entity you’re talking about has the power to declare whether things are illegal or not. Slavery used to be legal. Keeping slaves was morally wrong, but it wasn’t against the law. No, I’m not saying ‘ZOMG THIS IS LIKE SLAVERY’, but it’s illustrative of the fact that ‘they didn’t expose anything illegal’ isn’t really useful as a metric.

As I said, I don’t believe that Snowden or Manning are ‘heroes’. I believe they’ve done wrong, and for little if any benefit. But what I’m talking about is that phrase that keeps coming up:

“We didn’t elect them to tell us about government abuses.”

Well then, who DID we elect to tell us about government abuses? And does that person have any real incentive to do that? How many elected officials have been found doing corrupt things with their power over the centuries? We barely trust our elected government to keep basic things like a woman’s right to her own body in mind, and that’s in open, public discourse. If they have a hard time doing the right thing when it comes to obvious basic rights like that, how do you trust them to do the right thing regarding ‘state secrets’ that may involve spying on their citizens?

What I’m saying is that when ‘national secrets’ are involved, a lot of people seem to very suddenly trust the government completely, despite having issues with it in other areas that aren’t as open to abuse. And if people like Manning and Snowden don’t have any right to expose things (Again: Not saying that they did, in fact they likely didn’t. People LIKE them, not them specifically), then who does?

154 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:17:25am

re: #142 Dr. Matt

But, did these two assholes reveal anything explicitly illegal or did they simply reveal the ugly truth of our government’s capability?

Manning revealed the bacha bazi party a US contractor, Dyncorp, paid for in Afghanistan. That means that your taxpayer dollars went to hire a pimp of child prostitutes to supply little boys so that they could be raped by grown men. Not illegal in Afghanistan apparently but hard to argue something like that should ever have been kept secret by the State Department.

155 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:17:36am

Meanwhile, in Wingnuttia, people have weird notions of “treason” and “heroics”

156 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:18:08am

re: #45 simoom

It’s weird that the Guardian is comfortable w/ it. You’d think they’d have asked him to dial back his public ego-tripping and activist tweets as they bring an obvious air of bias to the stories he does with them.

It’s not bias if you’re right! //

157 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:19:07am

“Ed Snowden fears for his life.”

If I hadn’t already finished drinking my coffee, I would be spraying it out of my nose.

158 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:19:25am

re: #143 goddamnedfrank

Breaking both legs sounds like he made it all the way to jump training.

Or possibly jumping off a wall on the obstacle course.

159 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:19:54am

re: #153 GunstarGreen

But the government makes the laws. To say that there’s ‘nothing illegal’ is technically true, but it’s not very useful when the entity you’re talking about has the power to declare whether things are illegal or not. Slavery used to be legal. Keeping slaves was morally wrong, but it wasn’t against the law. No, I’m not saying ‘ZOMG THIS IS LIKE SLAVERY’, but it’s illustrative of the fact that ‘they didn’t expose anything illegal’ isn’t really useful as a metric.

As I said, I don’t believe that Snowden or Manning are ‘heroes’. I believe they’ve done wrong, and for little if any benefit. But what I’m talking about is that phrase that keeps coming up:

“We didn’t elect them to tell us about government abuses.”

Well then, who DID we elect to tell us about government abuses? And does that person have any real incentive to do that? How many elected officials have been found doing corrupt things with their power over the centuries? We barely trust our elected government to keep basic things like a woman’s right to her own body in mind, and that’s in open, public discourse. If they have a hard time doing the right thing when it comes to obvious basic rights like that, how do you trust them to do the right thing regarding ‘state secrets’ that may involve spying on their citizens?

What I’m saying is that when ‘national secrets’ are involved, a lot of people seem to very suddenly trust the government completely, despite having issues with it in other areas that aren’t as open to abuse. And if people like Manning and Snowden don’t have any right to expose things (Again: Not saying that they did, in fact they likely didn’t. People LIKE them, not them specifically), then who does?

Ellsberg is one of my youthful heroes, Manning/Snowden not, Greenwald not likely. There is a difference based on role and motivation. The government has a right to try to keep secrets, journalists to expose them, and both should suffer institutional consequences when they do it wrong.

160 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:21:35am

re: #154 goddamnedfrank

And if he had only released that story, just that one, I’d have argued in his defense as a whistleblower and respected him.

161 steve_davis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:23:03am

Sure, the History Channel (**cough**)

“next on the history channel, Leonard Nimoy narrates colorized footage of secret nazi zombie experiments…..”

162 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:23:25am

re: #161 steve_davis

Sure, the History Channel (**cough**)

“next on the history channel, Leonard Nimoy narrates colorized footage of secret nazi zombie experiments…..”

ON ALIENS!!11!!

163 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:24:03am

re: #82 darthstar

Meanwhile, back on the crazy train…

Oh, for… Never mind CHRIST explicitly saying that does not happen! Stupid fucking idiot.

164 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:25:27am

re: #153 GunstarGreen

What I’m saying is that when ‘national secrets’ are involved, a lot of people seem to very suddenly trust the government completely, despite having issues with it in other areas that aren’t as open to abuse.

Yeah, no, I’ll stop you there. Any distrust I have in the government does not automatically translate into support of jackholes like Greenwald or Snowden. I did not need them to clue me into the dangers that the Patriot Act presented, I knew all that back when the damn thing passed. And nothing they have alleged has been backed up with actual evidence. We’re supposed to take it on Snowden’s word that he’s not selling us a pile of bullshit, and that’s why his credentials are being picked apart. If the man is not who he’s sold himself as, then how am I supposed to believe him when he says that he’s telling the truth about what the NSA is doing?

165 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:25:42am

re: #64 Kragar

My current project is coming along nicely;

Dark Eldar

Image: Servant_of_the_archon.jpg

Any one who thinks they live in a horrible world should spend some time in the Warhammer 40k universe. There are no good guys; only bad, worse and far worse.

166 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:26:29am

re: #121 Dr. Matt

So, who wants to join a betting pool on the amount of time it takes before it turns out that Snowden’s story is a fraud?

Yeah, 29 years old, no high school diploma, claims he’s pulling in GS-14 to GS-15 level pay? Um…

Now, if his narcissism and sociopathy helped him convince some private sector HR idiot to hire him at a wildly inflated salary based upon a fraudulent resume, well, congrats dude. I hope the folks who decided to hire him are looking for work soon too. There’s lots of actually qualified veterans who need jobs.

167 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:27:33am

re: #153 GunstarGreen

I agree with you in theory, but anyone doing ‘whistleblowing’ has an obligation to actually get their story straight, and to be sure they’re whistleblowing in the most responsible way possible. If they don’t do that, then they’re not only fucking shit up, they’re fucking shit up for future whistleblowers.

This guy didn’t do that. Nor, in a big way, did Manning.

168 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:27:34am

re: #152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Unless he actively solicited this dude to go and get the stuff.

I’m actually not seriously moved by the recruiting argument, even as it applies to Assange given the information available. Unless it’s argued that someone used extortion or some other kind of illegal coercion to get a leaker to spill then it’s just a journalist using their own reason to motivate a source into talking. People like Manning and Snowden want to share the secrets they’ve been entrusted with, which is a trait the government agencies need to find a better way of somehow testing for. The historical role of the press is to shine a light on and investigate society, even (especially) the parts that want to remain hidden.

169 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:28:21am

re: #166 funky chicken

Yeah, 29 years old, no high school diploma, claims he’s pulling in GS-14 to GS-15 level pay? Um…

Now, if his narcissism and sociopathy helped him convince some private sector HR idiot to hire him at a wildly inflated salary based upon a fraudulent resume, well, congrats dude. I hope the folks who decided to hire him are looking for work soon too. There’s lots of actually qualified veterans who need jobs.

I posted on the dead thread that you’re actually low on the salary scale. $200,000 is SES pay, like cabinet undersecretaries.

170 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:29:58am

re: #168 goddamnedfrank

No, I meant a reporter saying “Try to get a job at Booz Allen and then go and see what you can find out about secret shit.”

The historical role of the press is to shine a light on and investigate society, even (especially) the parts that want to remain hidden.

Well, role is a tricky thing. That ‘role’ is also served by the police revealing whose fucking whom, who is gay, who is doing drugs, and other personal bullshit that shouldn’t matter.

The press has a role in keeping the powers that be honest, but it involves actually doing due diligence when they do so. Just because it’s not an official position like ‘cop’ doesn’t mean that the way they go about it and the subjects they choose aren’t criticizable.

171 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:31:27am

re: #155 Vicious Babushka

Meanwhile, in Wingnuttia, people have weird notions of “treason” and “heroics”

Haven’t these folks heard that he fled to Hong Kong? You know, part of the communist People’s Republic of China? Commies are OK now?

172 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:31:45am

re: #101 freetoken

So desperate our society is, for heroes.

I blame Napoleon. He was the archetype of the populist dictator, and people do love a ‘Leader’.

173 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:31:51am

Glenn Greenwald retweeted:

174 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:33:05am

re: #171 funky chicken

Haven’t these folks heard that he fled to Hong Kong? You know, part of the communist People’s Republic of China? Commies are OK now?

Freep quotes Pravda and Russia Today favorably. Washington Post and NYT are universally condemned.

175 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:33:50am

Meanwhile I’m waiting for a BAH contractor of more experience and seniority to exclaim WTF! Why am I making $95K/yr?

176 piratedan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:33:51am

re: #171 funky chicken

hey, at least those dirty commies aren’t blackity, black black y’know.

177 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:33:58am

re: #159 Decatur Deb

A lot depends on content of what was leaked, whether the leakers took some consideration into the impact of what they leak, etc. Just dumping stuff out a’la the Manning material that compromises intelligence assets and possibly gets people killed is different than releasing an internal report such as the Pentagon Papers that reveals the one part of the government bypassing checks and balances by lying to another part of the government.

And we also rightly criticized government officials for outing intelligence agents such as the whole Valerie Plame/Niger yellow cake affair.

How the Greenwald/Snowdon falls into this spectrum remains to be seen. Though I suspect that there will be little responsibility taken by the leakers regarding possible sensitivity. They seem more interested in this point in publicity and hysterics than the whistleblowing and holding a meaningful debate on government scrutiny and intelligence gathering.

178 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:34:56am

re: #169 Decatur Deb

Well, GS-15 in Hawaii could hit 200K because of COLA (not sure if that’s the right term, my husband is still active duty). You do get extra pay for being assigned to high cost locations in the GS system. But really, no way he had that pay grade unless his daddy is head of the NSA or something, and that’s illegal, so also highly unlikely.

179 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:36:05am

re: #177 Feline Fearless Leader

A lot depends on content of what was leaked, whether the leakers took some consideration into the impact of what they leak, etc. Just dumping stuff out a’la the Manning material that compromises intelligence assets and possibly gets people killed is different than releasing an internal report such as the Pentagon Papers that reveals the one part of the government bypassing checks and balances by lying to another part of the government.

And we also rightly criticized government officials for outing intelligence agents such as the whole Valerie Plame/Niger yellow cake affair.

How the Greenwald/Snowdon falls into this spectrum remains to be seen. Though I suspect that there will be little responsibility taken by the leakers regarding possible sensitivity. They seem more interested in this point in publicity and hysterics than the whistleblowing and holding a meaningful debate on government scrutiny and intelligence gathering.

Yup. That’s pretty much the noo-ance.

180 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:37:02am

re: #175 Vicious Babushka

Meanwhile I’m waiting for a BAH contractor of more experience and seniority to exclaim WTF! Why am I making $95K/yr?

I’m guessing it’s partly because you don’t work in classified digital security and mostly because your cost of living index isn’t calculated for Honolulu.

181 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:37:19am

re: #179 Decatur Deb

Yup. That’s pretty much the noo-ance.

Nuance does not exist in the Twitter Universe.

182 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:38:05am

re: #175 Vicious Babushka

Meanwhile I’m waiting for a BAH contractor of more experience and seniority to exclaim WTF! Why am I making $95K/yr?

I think the 200K thing will be one of the first bits of BS to be made ‘inoperative’.

183 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:38:34am

re: #181 Feline Fearless Leader

Nuance does not exist in the Twitter Universe.

Neither do I.

184 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:39:33am

Funny commentary on the government surveillance thing:

xkcd.com

185 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:39:34am

re: #180 goddamnedfrank

I’m guessing it’s partly because you don’t work in classified digital security and mostly because your cost of living index isn’t calculated for Honolulu.

Why would you think I was talking about myself? I do not and have never worked for BAH.

186 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:42:49am

re: #184 William Barnett-Lewis

Funny commentary on the government surveillance thing:

xkcd.com

Oh crap. They’re watching my war rhinos stomp on kobolds!

187 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:43:16am

Meanwhile, John Bolton - much loved by wingnuts - has come right out and said that Mr. Snowden is guilty of treason.

wlsam.com

Freepers aren’t taking this suggestion so well.

To: maggief
Many Americans no longer trust you mister bolton… you remained silent while tyranny grew. Snowden may very well be a true hero… he may not… but America will decide without you government drones shaping that decision. Only those that have surrendered their Freedom and Liberty will fall for your continued lies.

LLS
4 posted on Mon 10 Jun 2013 04:35:19 PM CEST by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
_____________________


To: maggief

By his argument nobody should ever question the government. Following the chain of command to expose improprieties when you government is large and out of control is the equivalent of pissing into the wind.

5 posted on Mon 10 Jun 2013 04:35:20 PM CEST by Resolute Conservative
____________________

To: maggief

I saw Bolton on Fox yesterday and was so appalled by him that I now consider him to be a “formerly solid” conservative.

6 posted on Mon 10 Jun 2013 04:35:24 PM CEST by jiggyboy (Ten percent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
____________________

To: maggief
We are under no obligation to follow illegal orders. Also, the Oath I took obligates me to protect the Republic from Enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

This entire Administration is a Domestic enemy and a complete perversion of the Federal government outlined in our Constitution.
17 posted on Mon 10 Jun 2013 04:38:59 PM CEST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
____________________

Can’t say I’m surprised by the foaming-at-the-mouth reaction.

188 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:44:55am

re: #184 William Barnett-Lewis

Funny commentary on the government surveillance thing:

xkcd.com

Heh. We used to laugh about our embassy housing phones because of the poor intercept listeners. We had an 18 yr old daughter on the line most of the time.

189 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:45:16am
190 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:46:00am

re: #187 Dr Lizardo

Watching them eat their heroes.

191 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:46:54am

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Watching them eat their heroes.

Anarchists. The GOP has bred a gigantic, healthy crop (or should that be crap?) of anarchists.

192 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:46:59am

re: #184 William Barnett-Lewis

Funny commentary on the government surveillance thing:

xkcd.com

The bad news: Dwarf Fortress is the first AI to achieve complete sentience. The good news: Urist McH.A.L. Cancels Destroy Mankind: Needs 250,000 Giant Cave Spider Silk Socks.

193 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:47:10am

re: #187 Dr Lizardo

This comment:

I saw Bolton on Fox yesterday and was so appalled by him that I now consider him to be a “formerly solid” conservative.

perfectly encapsulates the complete policy void that defines the contemporary “conservative” movement.

Is he on our side? Good conservative.

Is he on the other side? Not a good conservative.

“On our side” is defined here as “agrees with me on latest news story of interest”.

194 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:47:38am

Actually: Antarchists. Anarchists I can respect philosophically, some of them.

195 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:48:20am
196 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:49:21am

re: #194 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Actually: Antarchists. Anarchists I can respect philosophically, some of them.

Those who favor a government of the ants, by the ants, and for the ants?

197 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:51:28am

re: #196 erik_t

Those who favor a government of the ants, by the ants, and for the ants?

Heh. Really, I think we do have a new thing. It’s a natural progression from the stupid Randian minarchism that’s been spread by the GOP, the ‘government always should be cut back’. These people celebrate those they see as striking a blow against the US government— or at least the Federal government.

198 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:52:12am

re: #187 Dr Lizardo

Peter King calls for NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden to be extradited from Hong Kong

Now the so-called libruls and teatards can both equally hate on King.

199 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:52:42am

re: #189 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

If Greenwald is telling the truth, then he and Snowden have been planning this before Snowden’s employment with Booz Allen began.

200 justaminute  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:53:28am

There’s some funny readings in the comment sections concerning this story out there:

Like : White privilege, you can get a job, make $200k and all kinds of access to gov. secrets with a GED but be black or brown, you have to have a Ph.D.

201 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:53:45am

re: #187 Dr Lizardo

Those freepers sure do love them some PRC.

202 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:54:17am

re: #93 Vicious Babushka

Just FYI, being married to a Canadian on a border town, I cross the border regularly. And I am regularly asked how much cash I have.

I once asked about that and they allow $$ crossing back and forth if you can show that it’s not, say, drug money. I make good money and drive a BMW, so if I had say $10k, I wouldn’t be questioned as severely as someone, for example, who was driving a 92 Honda Civic and had the same $10k.

It may or may not be flagged…but I tend to think not, because this is one of many questions (did you buy cigarettes/alcohol and how much of each, and do you have a gun are regular questions, too) that are typically asked at a Canadian crossing.

203 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:55:51am

re: #202 Joanne

Just FYI, being married to a Canadian on a border town, I cross the border regularly. And I am regularly asked how much cash I have.

I once asked about that and they allow $$ crossing back and forth if you can show that it’s not, say, drug money. I make good money and drive a BMW, so if I had say $10k, I wouldn’t be questioned as severely as someone, for example, who was driving a 92 Honda Civic and had the same $10k.

It may or may not be flagged…but I tend to think not, because this is one of many questions (did you buy cigarettes/alcohol and how much of each, and do you have a gun are regular questions, too) that are typically asked at a Canadian crossing.

How much maple syrup can you handle?

204 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:56:41am

The more I read about this the less I think of Snowden.

This is a guy who was a High School Dropout, got a GED, Joined the Army as a 18x but got medicaled 5 months later, and then spent 10 years as a Intel Agent before working as a contractor for the NSA in Hawaii for $200k a year? And then everything he releases is only details about already known about and legal (immoral but LEGAL) programs. As someone who had a very small role in the intel community & has known others, lets just say this story makes less sense than a Tom Clancy novel.

And then, because they’re such bastions of freedom (!), he runs off to Hong Kong; a place that has far more censorship and surveillance without judicial oversight than the US?

And then there is all the hacking of US assets coming from where?

Frankly, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that he’s been a Chinese asset for a long time.

205 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:57:16am

re: #192 erik_t

Also the Great Pyramid built of forgotten beast soap will take a while to complete.

206 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:57:18am

re: #202 Joanne

It may or may not be flagged…but I tend to think not, because this is one of many questions (did you buy cigarettes/alcohol and how much of each, and do you have a gun are regular questions, too) that are typically asked at a Canadian crossing.

I once took a trip to the Upper Peninsula to go see the Mackinac Bridge, and I’d never been to Ontario, so I figured, “Hey, self, let’s go to Ontario!”. And then I drove back to the US side fifteen minutes later. I did not consider the broader implication of this behavior.

Oh boy, those stares. Didn’t end up getting searched, though for a few long moments I expected one.

207 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:58:15am

re: #199 Targetpractice

If Greenwald is telling the truth, then he and Snowden have been planning this before Snowden’s employment with Booz Allen began.

Snowden said that he had most if not all of the information years ago and held off leaking then because he wanted to wait and see if Obama ended certain programs. It’s quite possible that none of it came from his employment at BAH. Of course it’s equally possible that everything so thoroughly mixed in with his own bullshit that people will be separating out the verifiable bits for years to come.

208 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:58:29am

…snip
Frankly, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that he’s been a Chinese asset for a long time.

Victim of a role-playing game with the world’s shittiest dungeonmaster.

209 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:58:35am

If Greenwald’s holding to that February bit, then we’re not talking a journalist having a leaker come to him with information or seeking out information from officials working with classified information. We’re talking about the orchestration of a plan to obtain classified documents for the express purpose of releasing them to the public.

210 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:59:22am

And on that note, I gotta run. BBL

211 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 7:59:31am

This is interesting. Granted it’s from Daily Mail - a notorious gossip rag - but it raised one of my eyebrows, Vulcan-style.

dailymail.co.uk

FTA: Former CIA technical assistant Edward Snowden exposed chilling details of a top-secret programme to harvest the personal data of millions of web users by one of the world’s most notorious spy organisations.

Until today his location was undisclosed - it was only known that he was he was hiding Hong Kong hotel room.

But today an employee at the 5* Mira Hotel in the neighborhood of Tsim Sha Tsui, said a guest by the name of Edward Snowden had checked out of the hotel today. She declined to give any further details.

If that’s true, and that’s one hell of a big “if”, ten-to-one he’s on his way to Beijing. He’s a defector.

212 efuseakay  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:00:23am

re: #201 funky chicken

Those freepers sure do love them some PRC.

Maybe they will love it so much, they will relocate. Oh who am I kidding. PRC won’t want them.

213 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:00:31am

re: #211 Dr Lizardo

This is interesting. Granted it’s from Daily Mail - a notorious gossip rag - but it raised one of my eyebrows, Vulcan-style.

dailymail.co.uk

FTA: Former CIA technical assistant Edward Snowden exposed chilling details of a top-secret programme to harvest the personal data of millions of web users by one of the world’s most notorious spy organisations.

I quit reading when they couldn’t get the US intelligence service right.

214 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:00:48am

re: #211 Dr Lizardo

This is interesting. Granted it’s from Daily Mail - a notorious gossip rag - but it raised one of my eyebrows, Vulcan-style.

dailymail.co.uk

FTA: Former CIA technical assistant Edward Snowden exposed chilling details of a top-secret programme to harvest the personal data of millions of web users by one of the world’s most notorious spy organisations.

Until today his location was undisclosed - it was only known that he was he was hiding Hong Kong hotel room.

But today an employee at the 5* Mira Hotel in the neighborhood of Tsim Sha Tsui, said a guest by the name of Edward Snowden had checked out of the hotel today. She declined to give any further details.

If that’s true, and that’s one hell of a big “if”, ten-to-one he’s on his way to Beijing. He’s a defector.

If he is such a bigshot spymaster, skilled in tradecraft, and he claims the government is out to get him, WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE CHECK IN UNDER HIS REAL NAME?

215 A Mom Anon  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:01:52am

I was telling the husband that I suspected Greenwald had been working with Snowden longer that he let on at the beginning of this. HA. Now, what the hell were they doing before Snowden had access to the info he supposedly got at BAH? Something stinks about this worse than before if that’s possible.

Maybe I deserve a 200K a yr job with my mighty honed mom skills(I can sniff out a lie pretty well, having raised two kids who were/are teenagers and been around their friends).

216 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:02:48am

re: #214 Vicious Babushka

If he is such a bigshot spymaster, skilled in tradecraft, and he claims the government is out to get him, WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE CHECK IN UNDER HIS REAL NAME?

Even better, that hotel is not too far from the US Embassy, if I’ve read correctly, in which it is presumed there is a CIA station.

Real smart. As in Maxwell Smart.

217 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:02:58am

re: #204 William Barnett-Lewis

It’s the only thing that could explain his making $200K per year.

and re: 200

Like : White privilege, you can get a job, make $200k and all kinds of access to gov. secrets with a GED but be black or brown, you have to have a Ph.D.

And that’s what lots of us are saying. There is simply no way
he was making that as a government employee with his resume. Anyone who believes he was doesn’t know how government salary structures work, white or otherwise. Go check out some listings on usajobs.

218 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:03:36am

re: #214 Vicious Babushka

If he is such a bigshot spymaster, skilled in tradecraft, and he claims the government is out to get him, WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE CHECK IN UNDER HIS REAL NAME?

Because his real name is Mr Eric Praline.

219 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:03:50am

re: #217 funky chicken

he was making that as a government employee with his resume. Anyone who believes he was doesn’t know how government salary structures work, white or otherwise. Go check out some listings on usajobs.

I’m relatively sure he was a subcontractor, not a civil servant. While I rather doubt his alleged salary, pointing at GS wage scales is not the way to disprove it.

220 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:04:04am

re: #218 Decatur Deb

Because his real name is Mr Eric Praline.

But it’s pronounced “Throat-wobbler mangrove”

221 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:04:30am

EXCEPT: The contracting agency receives that money, pays the contractor maybe half of that.

222 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:05:46am

re: #221 Vicious Babushka

EXCEPT: The contracting agency receives that money, pays the contractor maybe half of that.

But they’re not a government employee anymore, so now it counts as a “real job”. And the money comes from a different pocket, therefore the government has less employees and less salary, so !!SAVINGS!!.

223 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:06:32am

Off to feed the mosquitoes. BBL

224 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:06:40am

re: #222 erik_t

But they’re not a government employee anymore, so now it counts as a “real job”. And the money comes from a different pocket, therefore the government has less employees and less salary, so !!SAVINGS!!.

Wingnut Economics 101.

225 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:07:28am

re: #221 Vicious Babushka

EXCEPT: The contracting agency receives that money, pays the contractor maybe half of that.

Wingnut welfare.

226 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:08:31am
227 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:08:59am

re: #218 Decatur Deb

Because his real name is Mr Eric Praline.

And it’s pronounced “Throat Wobbler Mangrove”

228 steve_davis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:10:19am

re: #86 Vicious Babushka

The explanation is that he joined the military after obtaining a GED but that still does not explain how he was already a “distinguished career intelligence officer” with a gig in Geneva at 23 years old.

Put the words “military” and “intelligence” together in a sentence. Mystery solved!

229 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:10:25am

re: #222 erik_t

Because the government doesn’t have to cover retirement and health care. It was a good idea in the beginning, but like everything else, these corporations have figured out how to maximize profits. And the government will probably end up taking on the pensions anyway when the “poor” corporations cry that their pension obligations are killing their ability to pay dividends, or whatever.

230 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:12:07am

re: #222 erik_t

But they’re not a government employee anymore, so now it counts as a “real job”. And the money comes from a different pocket, therefore the government has less employees and less salary, so !!SAVINGS!!.

Gets the government out of some additonal costs though. Pension, health care, etc. etc.

Back when I was a contractor (non government) the company I worked for had both hired and independent sub-contractors. The hired contractors got roughly half the hourly rate of the independents. But we also had pension, health care, SS payments, *and* were paid between contract stints.

231 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:12:09am

re: #228 steve_davis

Um….no. He wasn’t still in the military since he washed out of basic.

232 Mattand  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:12:43am

re: #200 justaminute

There’s some funny readings in the comment sections concerning this story out there:

Like : White privilege, you can get a job, make $200k and all kinds of access to gov. secrets with a GED but be black or brown, you have to have a Ph.D.

Sadly, this comment is probably dreadfully accurate.

233 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:13:28am

re: #200 justaminute

There’s some funny readings in the comment sections concerning this story out there:

Like : White privilege, you can get a job, make $200k and all kinds of access to gov. secrets with a GED but be black or brown OR FEMALE, you have to have a Ph.D.

ftfy

234 bratwurst  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:14:50am
235 piratedan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:16:48am

re: #222 erik_t

as skeptical as I am about the salary thing or Snowden even being qualified for his gig, there are some things on his side of the ledger….

working in Hawaii (salary adjusted for cost of living)
his security clearance
formerly employed in the business (Military/CIA)
no benefits likely to be included in the compensation
government contracts can be lucrative depending on who has ‘em.
Old Boy Network, if he was someone fairhaired boy, doors get opened, wheels greased

things that reek

10 years in the field doing exactly what?
Did his Military career include any signal work (not stated thus far)
what level of clearance did he have
chances are he stole/obtained this data from his previous job, not the contractor gig, which still begs the question, how did he obtain the clearances to obtain the access he claimed from his former job in such a small amount of time.

236 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:17:31am

After reading the ThinkProgress page, $200K is what BAH receives for the contract, not what the contractor gets paid.

237 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:17:48am

re: #234 bratwurst

hahahaha. hopefully there will be several openings in the HR department there soon. seriously, out of hundreds, if not thousands of applicants you managed to select this douchebag?

238 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:19:22am

re: #211 Dr Lizardo

This is interesting. Granted it’s from Daily Mail - a notorious gossip rag - but it raised one of my eyebrows, Vulcan-style.

dailymail.co.uk

FTA: Former CIA technical assistant Edward Snowden exposed chilling details of a top-secret programme to harvest the personal data of millions of web users by one of the world’s most notorious spy organisations.

Until today his location was undisclosed - it was only known that he was he was hiding Hong Kong hotel room.

But today an employee at the 5* Mira Hotel in the neighborhood of Tsim Sha Tsui, said a guest by the name of Edward Snowden had checked out of the hotel today. She declined to give any further details.

If that’s true, and that’s one hell of a big “if”, ten-to-one he’s on his way to Beijing. He’s a defector.

Rooms at the Mira start at US$200 a night, so it’s not the swankiest place available in HK. Tsim Sha Tsui is an interesting neighborhood; stayed there once, but in a cheaper hotel.

Snowden would either need a visa to enter the mainland or special diplomatic arrangements. He can’t just walk across the border between HK and Shenzhen.

239 Mattand  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:20:24am

Just to clarify: the Snowden story is part of the bigger Greenwald/WaPo narrative that the NSA claims to have major tech companies working with them? The story over which WaPo is now backpedaling and Greenwald is getting his Beck on?

240 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:20:55am

re: #211 Dr Lizardo

He’s a defector.

Can anyone actually “defect” anymore?

241 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:21:59am

re: #235 piratedan

he washed out of basic training. i assume that means no signal work for the military. not that a douchebag like this wouldn’t fabricate some for his resume, but anybody with half a brain who knows how the military and GSA employment works should have been able to catch it. you may be onto something with the “fair haired boy” thing though. BAH may have an executive who got hoodwinked into thinking this guy was something/somebody he was not. back to the narcissism and sociopathy.

242 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:23:08am

re: #238 wheat-dogghazi

He could’ve got the visa before he left; it’s easily obtainable. You can it over the internet, and it’s not that terribly expensive, even for rush service.

243 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:25:21am

re: #241 funky chicken

Surprisingly many of these jobs aren’t easy to fill because there aren’t a lot of people who can do them. I often wondered about who gets hired for many of these positions - former military officers who were intel weenies always got the best pick, from my (now dated) experience. The go-fer jobs tended to be filled by anyone who happened to have the clearance and was willing to work in whatever strange location was on offer.

244 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:25:52am

re: #242 Dr Lizardo

Sure, but then he could directly to the mainland, no need to stop off in HK and spend so much money.

Edit: I just checked to be sure. China requires you to visit the embassy or consulate to drop off your application. They will mail it to if you don’t pay the extra rush processing fee. For my work visa (Z visa), I had to go to the Chicago consulate, but I wasn’t sure if the same would be true for a tourist (L) visa.

245 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:31:36am

re: #244 wheat-dogghazi

Sure, but then he could directly to the mainland, no need to stop off in HK and spend so much money.

That’s very true. Mr. Snowden is certainly an odd duck.

246 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:32:28am

I had to gofer some coffee creamer. Gave me the chance to grab a few cans of soup for the homeless fellow holding his sign on the way back to the office.

I got at least $3 of happy out of the exchange, so even objectivists should approve.

247 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:33:15am

re: #244 wheat-dogghazi

Sure, but then he could directly to the mainland, no need to stop off in HK and spend so much money.

Wouldn’t that kind of totally destroy his claim that he is fleeing to a sanctuary of “freedom”?

248 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:33:41am

The document releases might be less valuable to the Chinese than what he saw or worked on as a IT security analyst for the CIA and NSA.

249 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:34:39am

re: #245 Dr Lizardo

That’s very true. Mr. Snowden is certainly an odd duck.

Putting it mildly. HK would not be my first choice of to places to visit if I were on the lam. Too pricey and too close to Big Daddy China.

250 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:35:51am

re: #169 Decatur Deb

I posted on the dead thread that you’re actually low on the salary scale. $200,000 is SES pay, like cabinet undersecretaries.

Except he is private, not government.

My friend in special forces makes 1/4 of what a SF contractor makes. His salary in the military was roughly $45k (he was military, left to be a cop, and went back in after 9/11). Military contractors were making like $160k.

251 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:37:10am

So I hear Snowden checked out of his hotel today. I hope he’s driving around Hong Kong in a white Bronco. That would be sweet.

252 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:37:45am

re: #249 wheat-dogghazi

Putting it mildly. HK would not be my first choice of to places to visit if I were on the lam. Too pricey and too close to Big Daddy China.

Still too many unknowns floating around. Which would explain a lot of data points not making apparent sense.

253 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:40:28am

re: #187 Dr Lizardo

Talk about reaping what they sow. Congrats, Bolton. Heck of a job there.

254 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:40:28am

re: #251 darthstar

So I hear Snowden checked out of his hotel today. I hope he’s driving around Hong Kong in a white Bronco. That would be sweet.

Driving very slowly around Hong Kong.

255 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:41:11am

re: #254 Dr Lizardo

Driving very slowly around Hong Kong.

Isn’t Hong Kong like, one big huge traffic jam, all the time?

256 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:42:05am

re: #253 Joanne

Talk about reaping what they sow. Congrats, Bolton. Heck of a job there.

I think a lot of the Freepers -and SoCons in general - are PO’d at Bolton because he’s a supporter of same-sex marriage. I do believe he argued in favor of it during the recent SCOTUS hearing.

257 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:43:41am

re: #203 Decatur Deb

How much maple syrup can you handle?

Alas, I don’t like the stuff. Don’t tell anyone. They might revoke my Canadian status. :-)

You can bring virtually anything into the US, but Canada is much more restrictive.

258 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:43:46am

re: #255 Vicious Babushka

Heh. Like Prague on a Friday at 4 P.M.; everyone getting out of town and heading to the vacation cottage in the country.

The chalupa, which really confused me as an American when I first heard it.

259 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:45:17am

UGH. More Paultards on my FB holding Snowden up as a hero exposing crimes by the government.

What. The. FUCK.

260 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:46:14am

re: #214 Vicious Babushka

If he is such a bigshot spymaster, skilled in tradecraft, and he claims the government is out to get him, WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE CHECK IN UNDER HIS REAL NAME?

Because…who would think to look for his real name once he released his real name in real time to real people on the public wifi internet machine?

He had pillows at the door and a hoodie covering his passwords for crying out loud! He was teh safe!

/

261 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:48:09am

That’s because they are:

262 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:48:20am

Great Orange Stan, sadly, is still a little too excited about complaining to step back for a moment and use their thinkmeat (on the front page, not some backwater diary).

A 29 year-old kid, not working for the government, had access to all of this information, has the ability to wiretap any official in the U.S. It’s bad enough to have our government secretly scooping up the information of who we call, when we call them, how long those conversations are, and where we’re at when we make the call, not to mention Internet activity and credit card transactions. But it’s even worse to have our government contracting out that extreme invasion of our privacy. And we’re paying for it!

I really tend to expect better. They’re not FDL ferchrissakes. I’m thinking about starting up the Memorial Buzzfeed Should-I-Take-You-Seriously Countdown.

263 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:48:53am

re: #255 Vicious Babushka

Isn’t Hong Kong like, one big huge traffic jam, all the time?

They have highways there, and stuff. It’s like NYC in many ways.

264 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:49:04am

The far-left and the far-right both love Snowden. Enough said.

265 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:49:26am
266 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:51:31am

re: #255 Vicious Babushka

Isn’t Hong Kong like, one big huge traffic jam, all the time?

It’s on twitter now, so it has to be true:

267 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:53:01am
268 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:53:31am
269 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:54:21am

re: #82 darthstar

Va. Republican Lt. Governor Candidate Said Birth Defects Are Caused By Sin

Explain that to Sarah Palin, willya? I wanna be there to watch

270 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:57:03am

re: #258 Dr Lizardo

The chalupa, which really confused me as an American when I first heard it.

I used to work with this Mexican guy and when Taco Bell came out with the chalupa, he was like WTF? I’ve never heard of this thing before. He had me ROTFL.

271 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:58:35am

re: #139 GunstarGreen

In an ideal world, there would be no secrets. But we don’t live in an ideal world. I recognize that there are some things which do need to be kept confidential.

There is generally a distinction between keeping secrets that could compromise the government’s ability to perform its mandated task (security in this case) and keeping secrets that will make politicians and government officials look bad.

Sometimes there is even an overlap.

272 A Mom Anon  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:59:02am

re: #269 Sol Berdinowitz

I believe the proper response to this freak is “shut up you bloated bag of douche”.

273 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 8:59:55am

re: #270 Joanne

I used to work with this Mexican guy and when Taco Bell came out with the chalupa, he was like WTF? I’ve never heard of this thing before. He had me ROTFL.

Heh. In Czech, a chalupa is a vacation cottage; the confusion works both ways. When my ex-wife visited stateside back in ‘04, we went to a Taco Bell - because she’d never been to one - and when she saw ‘chalupa’ on the menu, she was like, “Whaaaaat?”

274 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:00:28am

re: #262 erik_t

Great Orange Stan, sadly, is still a little too excited about complaining to step back for a moment and use their thinkmeat (on the front page, not some backwater diary).

I really tend to expect better. They’re not FDL ferchrissakes. I’m thinking about starting up the Memorial Buzzfeed Should-I-Take-You-Seriously Countdown.

I am missing your unhappiness. The above is all fact (note that there is no mention of the content…because that is not being tracked).

What’s wrong with this? It looks accurate to me.

275 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:00:54am

re: #82 darthstar

Meanwhile, back on the crazy train…

Va. Republican Lt. Governor Candidate Said Birth Defects Are Caused By Sin t.co #p2 #ctl #topprog #tcot #theocracy
— ÐiegoUK (@DiegoUK) June 10, 2013

He’s the VA version of Allen West

276 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:02:46am

Dana spews a Fake Quote

277 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:04:04am

re: #272 A Mom Anon

I believe the proper response to this freak is “shut up you bloated bag of douche”.

And that is the problem: the party not only fails to distance itself from this approach,k it embraces him as a candidate

278 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:04:33am

re: #274 Joanne

I am missing your unhappiness. The above is all fact (note that there is no mention of the content…because that is not being tracked).

What’s wrong with this? It looks accurate to me.

It’s absolutely technically correct, but it’s missing the broader point of complete Colbert-truthiness surrounding the entire Greenwald-story ecosystem. They haven’t addressed that in the slightest, although that doesn’t exactly make them special.

Indeed, continuing the discussion of sensible contracting to the complete exclusion of investigating the truth of the matter lends additional credence to Greenwald’s story and Snowden’s honesty, both of which IMHO need to either be substantiated or blown wide open.

As has been mentioned in these spaces previously, many (most?) commentators continue to take all of the individual points of the story at face value, even as others collapse under the sheer weight of bullshit.

279 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:05:18am

re: #276 Vicious Babushka

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

“And every gun and land-owning white male in America is the final arbiter of what is just and injust”

-George Wingnut Jefferson Franklin Jr.

280 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:07:22am

If this is true, sounds like the traitor Snowden took that intel position for an agenda.

281 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:08:12am

Ah…..the plot thickens.

This is from a slight more credible paper than the Daily Mail: Apparently, Mr. Snowden has been told to leave Hong Kong, or face extradition back to the US.

independent.co.uk

282 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:09:19am

re: #280 Dr. Matt

If this is true, sounds like the traitor Snowden took that intel position for an agenda.

Does anyone know where he was working prior to the BAH gig?

283 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:09:21am

re: #281 Dr Lizardo

Ah…..the plot thickens.

This is from a slight more credible paper than the Daily Mail: Apparently, Mr. Snowden has been told to leave Hong Kong, or face extradition back to the US.

independent.co.uk

When China doesn’t want your ass, you know you’re screwed.

284 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:09:45am

re: #275 Dr. Matt

Guys, these are just his religious beliefs and views, which are completely unimportant in a political candidate, unless said candidate is Muslim or Atheist.

//

285 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:09:59am

re: #278 erik_t

Ok, I agree with that.

286 Neo_  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:11:05am

Everybody should listen to the interview of Edward Snowden.

The White House is saying that they are doing nothing illegal, but Snowden is saying that there is a new system in the works that will provide the “next President” with “turnkey tyranny.”

This is about the future.

287 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:11:40am

re: #286 Neo_

GFY

288 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:12:10am

re: #286 Neo_

Everybody should listen to the interview of Edward Snowden.

The White House is saying that they are doing nothing illegal, but Snowden is saying that there is a new system in the works that will provide the “next President” with “turnkey tyranny.”

This is about the future.

Glenn Beck called and said he wants his conspiracy theory back.

289 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:14:00am

re: #286 Neo_

The White House is saying that they are doing nothing illegal, but Snowden is saying that there is a new system in the works that will provide the “next President” with “turnkey tyranny.”

Turkey tyranny? Like mandatory halal butterballs? ZOMG!

290 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:14:54am

re: #283 Dr. Matt

When China doesn’t want your ass, you know you’re screwed.

There’s always lovely Pyongyang I suppose.

291 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:15:58am

re: #290 Dr Lizardo

Syria!

292 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:16:20am
293 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:17:19am

re: #289 Sol Berdinowitz

Turkey tyranny? Like mandatory halal butterballs? ZOMG!

ZOMG! ITZ TEH STEALTH JIHAD HALAL CONSPIRASEE!! ONCE WE EAT TEH HALAL BUTTERBALL JIHAD TYRANNY, WE WILL ALL BECOME MOOZLIMS!!1!

294 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:17:33am

re: #281 Dr Lizardo

Ah…..the plot thickens.

This is from a slight more credible paper than the Daily Mail: Apparently, Mr. Snowden has been told to leave Hong Kong, or face extradition back to the US.

independent.co.uk

Ha! I was right!

295 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:17:46am

re: #280 Dr. Matt

If this is true, sounds like the traitor Snowden took that intel position for an agenda.

If it’s true, then Greenwald is an accomplice.

296 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:17:56am

re: #286 Neo_

Everybody should listen to the interview of Edward Snowden.

The White House is saying that they are doing nothing illegal, but Snowden is saying that there is a new system in the works that will provide the “next President” with “turnkey tyranny.”

This is about the future.

Even taking this post at face value, one has to wonder about the mental soundness of a person who says “My democratically elected government says X, but a HS dropout who stinkbombed Glenn Greenwald with a shitty Powerpoint and then fled to China says Y” and then goes with “Y”.

297 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:18:03am

re: #289 Sol Berdinowitz

Turkey tyranny? Like mandatory halal butterballs? ZOMG!

In the future, everyone will be required to eat Halal Butterball turkeys, which automatically turn you into a Muslim with the first bite.

298 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:18:35am

re: #297 Vicious Babushka

In the future, everyone will be required to eat Halal Butterball turkeys, which automatically turn you into a Muslim with the first bite.

giblet jihad

299 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:18:58am

Circle of Derp levels are near 11ty.

300 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:19:04am

re: #281 Dr Lizardo

A senior figure in Hong Kong law enforcement has suggested NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden should leave the city.

But… weren’t we told that HK was pro liberty?

301 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:19:27am
302 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:19:32am

re: #291 stabby

Syria!

LOL. At least the weather’s better. Well, when there’s not bombing and shooting and running and screaming.

In 2010, I missed an opportunity to travel to Damascus and Aleppo with my Sheikh….I wish I’d done so now. I would’ve loved to have seen that ancient land. Damascus is, I believe, one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world.

303 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:21:15am

Good morning lizards!

Not watching TV this weekend made me miss all this news. This week is going to be very interesting.

304 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:22:24am

Ya know, I’m kind of ok with the military spying on us, as long as there’s an impenetrable wall between them and the police/fbi.

No one on the left likes to hear that terrorism is a lot bigger threat to life than crime is and should be treated differently, but it’s still true, and it’s, frankly, obvious to most people.

The problem with all this, is that we’ll eventually elect some fascist who thinks that spying on Americans should be used to lower the crime rate, lower the rate of teen pregnancy, stop rebellion against the word of God etc. etc. etc.

305 The Mountain That Blogs  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:23:07am

re: #302 Dr Lizardo

Damascus is, I believe, one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world.

I believe it’s the oldest.

306 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:23:08am

re: #281 Dr Lizardo

Ah…..the plot thickens.

This is from a slight more credible paper than the Daily Mail: Apparently, Mr. Snowden has been told to leave Hong Kong, or face extradition back to the US.

independent.co.uk

From that report,

The 29-year-old employee of defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton and former CIA technical assistant, said he had never intended to remain anonymous. “I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong,” he said.

His former employers and the US government have a different view of the circumstances, as he should well know, being a “career intelligence officer.” If he had no intention of hiding, why was he stuffing pillows around his door?

307 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:24:23am
308 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:24:34am


Barrett Brown?

309 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:25:02am

re: #304 stabby

No one on the left likes to hear that terrorism is a lot bigger threat to life than crime is and should be treated differently, but it’s still true, and it’s, frankly, obvious to most people.

Terrorism IS a crime.

Also, most people have a far greater chance of being directly affected by crime much closer to home than they are terrorism.

310 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:25:49am

re: #302 Dr Lizardo

LOL. At least the weather’s better. Well, when there’s not bombing and shooting and running and screaming.

It’s getting bad. A month ago I read that it spilled over into Lebanon and Tripoli had 1200 bombs and shells dropped on it in a week.

That makes the Iraq war look tame.

But I’m getting so jaded that I actually had a giggle, imagining Snowden running around in ack-ack…

311 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:27:19am

re: #305 The Mountain That Blogs

You’re right.

312 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:27:21am
313 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:27:26am

re: #309 Lidane

Terrorism IS a crime.

Also, most people have a far greater chance of being directly affected by crime much closer to home than they are terrorism.

So what? How the fuck is that relevant?

If your goal is to kill as many people as possible, shouldn’t greater measures be allowed to stop you than if your goal is to cheat the lady down the street out of $1000?

314 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:28:13am

re: #310 stabby

It’s getting bad. A month ago I read that it spilled over into Lebanon and Tripoli had 1200 bombs and shells dropped on it in a week.

That makes the Iraq war look tame.

But I’m getting so jaded that I actually had a giggle, imagining Snowden running around in ack-ack…

That would-be Jason Bourne would likely last all of an hour in Syria as things stand right now.

315 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:29:30am

re: #306 wheat-dogghazi

Stuffing pillows around the door and hiding under a blanket = total security.

If you’re a five-year old.

316 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:29:59am
317 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:30:41am

I would do a HELL of a lot more to prevent a Beslan than is appropriate for run of the mill crime, even if run of the mill crime is more of a nuisance to you personally, Lidane.

318 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:30:51am

re: #313 stabby

So what? How the fuck is that relevant?

It’s relevant because you’re trying to separate terrorism from crime.

If your goal is to kill as many people as possible, shouldn’t greater measures be allowed to stop you than if your goal is to cheat the lady down the street out of $1000?

I’m sorry. I must have missed the greater law enforcement measures that the authorities took in the aftermath of the Boston bombings. My bad.

319 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:30:52am

re: #286 Neo_

Everybody should listen to the interview of Edward Snowden.

The White House is saying that they are doing nothing illegal, but Snowden is saying that there is a new system in the works that will provide the “next President” with “turnkey tyranny.”

This is about the future.

OMG OMG! We should do something! I know, let’s have two other branches of government so the executive is not too strong!

Nah, that would never work….

320 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:30:55am

re: #316 NJDhockeyfan

GMTA

321 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:31:50am

My Stabby-sense is tingling.

322 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:31:59am

re: #310 stabby

It’s getting bad. A month ago I read that it spilled over into Lebanon and Tripoli had 1200 bombs and shells dropped on it in a week.

That makes the Iraq war look tame.

But I’m getting so jaded that I actually had a giggle, imagining Snowden running around in ack-ack…

We killed over 100,000 Iraqis in the last ten years, executed a full military invasion, used depleted uranium and white phosphorous against Iraqi troops (and anyone within range of them), dropped (conventional) cruise missiles with 2,000lb warheads on a 24/7 basis for weeks. Tame? Please.

323 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:32:22am

re: #313 stabby

So what? How the fuck is that relevant?

If your goal is to kill as many people as possible, shouldn’t greater measures be allowed to stop you than if your goal is to cheat the lady down the street out of $1000?

I would rather the government focused on making neighborhoods safe and helping people become productive members of society than on weeding out potential subversives.

I understand that both things have to happen to some extent but devoting extravagant resources to the latter while letting the former deteriorate is a big mistake IMO.

324 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:32:30am

re: #276 Vicious Babushka

Dana spews a Fake Quote

Maybe she was quoting George Jefferson.

325 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:33:49am

re: #322 darthstar

Well it made every single day AFTER “mission accomplished” look super tame. No one faced that level of warfare in the sectarian war that’s still going on.

326 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:34:33am

re: #321 erik_t

My Stabby-sense is tingling.

That sounds painful. Maybe there’s an ointment or something.

327 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:35:13am

re: #325 stabby

Well it made every single day AFTER “mission accomplished” look super tame. No one faced that level of warfare in the sectarian war that’s still going on.

Ah. I see. I hope you’ve informed the Marines of this fact.

328 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:35:28am
329 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:35:29am

re: #323 iossarian

I would rather the government focused on making neighborhoods safe and helping people become productive members of society than on weeding out potential subversives.

Terrorists do not equal subversives
Terrorists do not equal subversives
Terrorists do not equal subversives

To claim that the two are the same is to play a sort of hysteria card.

OH MY GOD THEY’RE GONNA DRONE ME FOR MY IDEAS, is NOT what’s being talked about.

330 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:36:10am

The article is actually about how much it must totally suck to be Snowden’s ex-girlfriend.

331 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:36:28am

re: #319 wrenchwench

OMG OMG! We should do something! I know, let’s have two other branches of government so the executive is not too strong!

Nah, that would never work….

On the other hand, it is a problem that an authoritarianism-friendly minority party in the legislative branch can effectively ensure that the judiciary branch remains friendly to authoritarianism.

That just kicks you back to the executive and whether they happen to be authoritarianism-friendly or not.

332 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:36:50am

If I was Laura Poitras I’d be tweeting some serious denial about now.

333 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:37:05am

OMG

334 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:37:40am

re: #327 erik_t

Ok, fine, but even the Sunni tribes turned on the Al Qaeda forces that made that happen. That sort of thing is over.

335 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:38:26am

re: #333 NJDhockeyfan

OMG

What terrorism?

336 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:39:15am

re: #331 iossarian

On the other hand, it is a problem that an authoritarianism-friendly minority party in the legislative branch can effectively ensure that the judiciary branch remains friendly to authoritarianism.

That just kicks you back to the executive and whether they happen to be authoritarianism-friendly or not.

This is why elections are important.

337 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:39:22am

re: #325 stabby

Well it made every single day AFTER “mission accomplished” look super tame. No one faced that level of warfare in the sectarian war that’s still going on.

Read the following chart before typing another fucking word:
Coalition Casualties by month

Source:
icasualties.org

338 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:39:26am

re: #328 darthstar

Maybe they built a Habitat house together.

339 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:40:09am

But the American Indians and Columbus!

//

340 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:40:16am

re: #328 darthstar

Mr. Greenwald would be in very, very deep shit if what he just admitted to in that tweet is true.

341 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:40:32am

Morning all!

How is it?

342 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:40:49am

re: #318 Lidane

It’s relevant because you’re trying to separate terrorism from crime.

I’m sorry. I must have missed the greater law enforcement measures that the authorities took in the aftermath of the Boston bombings. My bad.

Well my goal would be to PREVENT bombings not to get terrorists to back cars over their brothers after the fact.

But if that’s your goal, mission accomplished!

343 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:40:58am

re: #340 Dr Lizardo

Mr. Greenwald would be in very, very deep shit if what he just admitted to in that tweet is true.

From media star to person of interest in under 24 hours. Winning!

344 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:41:21am

re: #324 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Maybe she was quoting George Jefferson.

I have a George Washington quote in response but I’m still making it up.

345 Joanne  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:41:40am

re: #301 Dr. Matt

That is exactly what I was thinking when I read that Independent news article. He’s not a whistleblower. What illegality did he uncover?

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

346 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:42:03am

re: #337 darthstar

Uhm is there anything like “1000+ shells and bombs dropped on a city in a week” in that table?

Thought not.

347 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:42:09am

re: #341 FemNaziBitch

Morning all!

How is it?

Surprising consensus on the assholery of GG and Snowden, some argument about the details.

348 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:43:05am
349 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:43:09am

re: #336 wrenchwench

This is why elections are important.

We had an election. The good guys have a majority in the Senate, which supposedly approves the executive’s selections for the judiciary. The good guys won the executive as well.

Can we get some good judiciary selections approved then?

Can we fuck.

I’m not 100% disagreeing with your original comment about multiple branches, just pointing out that the checks and balances don’t work as well as they’re meant to when you have one party which is power-mad, strongly authoritarian and willing to exploit the system to their advantage.

350 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:43:50am

re: #343 darthstar

From media star to person of interest in a conspiracy to commit espionage against the government of the United States of America in under 24 hours. Winning!

FTFY.

351 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:44:56am

re: #346 stabby

Uhm is there anything like “1000+ shells and bombs dropped on a city in a week” in that table?

Thought not.

Do you think those American soldiers died without a fight? It was a fucking war. And a stupid war to wage. Stop trying to minimize Iraq with hyperbole about other (admittedly bad) current events.

352 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:46:46am

BRB. Watching the Microsoft E3 press conference.

353 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:47:50am

re: #322 darthstar

Also isn’t the number that WE killed around 10,000 people - you can blame us for catalyzing the transformation of extreme sectarian oppression into well, better government but also open sectarian fighting.

But to say that WE killed all of those people is to try to pretend all of the ethical questions and complexity away. It’s to lie in order to presuppose winning an argument.

‘Winning’ an argument by misstating the facts is Orwellian.

354 GunstarGreen  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:47:54am

re: #304 stabby

Ya know, I’m kind of ok with the military spying on us, as long as there’s an impenetrable wall between them and the police/fbi.

No one on the left likes to hear that terrorism is a lot bigger threat to life than crime is and should be treated differently, but it’s still true, and it’s, frankly, obvious to most people.

No, no it isn’t.

There were more people murdered in conventional crimes in the last year than there were killed in ‘terrorist attacks’ in the last five or more, unless you employ some incredibly broad definition of ‘terrorist attack’.

355 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:48:08am

re: #347 Decatur Deb

Surprising consensus on the assholery of GG and Snowden, some argument about the details.

I think it’s a bit like the French Revolution: “too soon to tell”.

356 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:49:42am

re: #353 stabby

‘Winning’ an argument by misstating the facts is Orwellian.

We should really have a jar where everyone has to put in a dollar when they misuse ‘Orwellian’, ‘ironic’, and ‘Fascist’.

357 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:49:50am

re: #276 Vicious Babushka

Dana spews a Fake Quote

So, Dana believes in the Rule Of Law, right? Rule of Law. Very important to Real American Patriots.

/

358 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:49:51am

re: #353 stabby

iraqbodycount.org

359 simoom  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:49:52am

re: #209 Targetpractice

If Greenwald’s holding to that February bit, then we’re not talking a journalist having a leaker come to him with information or seeking out information from officials working with classified information. We’re talking about the orchestration of a plan to obtain classified documents for the express purpose of releasing them to the public.

Or a plan to orchestrate some sort of constitutional challenge when it comes to citizen journalism & whistle-blowing inspired by Greenwald’s advocacy for Manning & Assange:

nytimes.com

Because he has often argued in defense of Bradley Manning, the army private who was charged as the WikiLeaks source, he said he considered publishing the story on his own, and not for The Guardian, to assert that the protections owed a journalist should not require the imprimatur of an established publisher.

I wonder why GG reconsidered.

360 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:50:22am

Don’t know what you guys are arguing about.

361 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:51:08am

re: #354 GunstarGreen

No, no it isn’t.

There were more people murdered in conventional crimes in the last year than there were killed in ‘terrorist attacks’ in the last five or more, unless you employ some incredibly broad definition of ‘terrorist attack’.

No doubt there were more people killed in car accidents in this past year than were killed in the Nagasaki bombing. Does that mean that nuclear war shouldn’t be prevented?

Your comparison isn’t actually compelling. It reminds me of people who claim that Israel is entirely to blame for the I/P conflict because a larger number of Palestinians die in it than Israelis.

Raw numbers don’t determine how to treat a problem.

362 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:51:35am

re: #360 Gus

Don’t know what you guys are arguing about.

I engaged with Stabby, who thinks we only killed 10,000 Iraqis and is minimizing the war. Fucking idiot.

363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:51:41am

re: #360 Gus

Don’t know what you guys are arguing about.

Whether a single 20th century person transported back into the 1200s would be able to effect any actual change or if they’d just die of something quickly, like being stuck with a sword.

364 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:51:53am

I cant wait to see the pictures later.

365 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:52:12am

re: #361 stabby

No doubt there were more people killed in car accidents in this past year than were killed in the Nagasaki bombing. Does that mean that nuclear war shouldn’t be prevented?

Yep. That’s what it means alright.

366 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:52:26am

re: #363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Whether a single 20th century person transported back into the 1200s would be able to effect any actual change or if they’d just die of something quickly, like being stuck with a sword the plague.

367 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:52:50am

re: #364 NJDhockeyfan

I was literally just there, and saw nobody.

368 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:52:53am

re: #360 Gus

Don’t know what you guys are arguing about.

Meh, they’re arguing over signs of “which side are you on” in the stupid battle of American right vs. left rhetoric. Actual reason is lost because argument has loyalty value that trumps reality and utility.

369 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:53:05am

re: #362 darthstar

I engaged with Stabby, who thinks we only killed 10,000 Iraqis and is minimizing the war. Fucking idiot.

How many died as a result of the embargo before the war even started?

Just askin’

370 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:53:08am

re: #363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Whether a single 20th century person transported back into the 1200s would be able to effect any actual change or if they’d just die of something quickly, like being stuck with a sword.

I’ve come up with an awesome solution to the problem of two people getting married and keeping their own names, but then what do you call the kids?

371 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:53:15am

re: #363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Whether a single 20th century person transported back into the 1200s would be able to effect any actual change or if they’d just die of something quickly, like being stuck with a sword.

Oh. Hmm.

372 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:54:09am

re: #368 stabby

Meh, they’re arguing over signs of “which side are you on” in the stupid battle of American right vs. left rhetoric. Actual reason is lost because argument has loyalty value that trumps reality and utility.

Thank god we’ve got you here to rise above all that pettiness, Stabby.

373 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:54:46am

re: #364 NJDhockeyfan

I cant wait to see the pictures later.

Wow. It’s a massive gathering! LOL It’s like PEW said. What people on Twitter think and what happened in the real world are two different things. I’m pretty sure and quite certain that the majority of Americans think Greenwald and Snowden are douche nozzles. I’ll wait for a poll.

374 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:54:57am

re: #370 iossarian

I’ve come up with an awesome solution to the problem of two people getting married and keeping their own names, but then what do you call the kids?

I’m leaning towards Wednesday or Alex for girls, and Alex or Ryan for boys.

375 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:55:26am

re: #372 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Thank god we’ve got you here to rise above all that pettiness, Stabby.

Sadly, you’re beyond help.

376 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:55:57am

re: #374 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m leaning towards Wednesday or Alex for girls, and Alex or Ryan for boys.

No, no, no, you don’t get it I meant…

/

377 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:56:06am

re: #349 iossarian

We had an election. The good guys have a majority in the Senate, which supposedly approves the executive’s selections for the judiciary. The good guys won the executive as well.

Can we get some good judiciary selections approved then?

Can we fuck.

I’m not 100% disagreeing with your original comment about multiple branches, just pointing out that the checks and balances don’t work as well as they’re meant to when you have one party which is power-mad, strongly authoritarian and willing to exploit the system to their advantage.

Yeah, elections work better if you have two or more sane parties involved. We haven’t had that lately. Still, they’re important, and there’s always another one coming up. Activity between elections is also important, although Organizing for America may not be the vehicle.

378 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:56:51am

re: #375 stabby

Sadly, you’re beyond help.

That is really goddamn sad. That’s like, crying panda who just dropped his ice cream sad.

Way to be a bummer, man.

379 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:57:41am

re: #369 Sol Berdinowitz

How many died as a result of the embargo before the war even started?

Just askin’

Between 1991 and 2003 the longest period without some form of US ordinance falling on an Iraqi target was six days. Clinton never let up on the no fly zone or anti-aircraft installment strikes. By the time Bush invaded, there was almost no defense to speak of.

380 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:58:52am

I reckon someone needs to expand the “Obama’s just playing n-dimensional chess” theme to make him into some Asimovean psycho-history savant who’s pulling all this 1984 shit in order to con the racist/lunatic right into opposing authoritarianism, with long-term positive outcomes for the human race.

381 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:59:14am
What people on Twitter think and what happened in the real world are two different things.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. /

382 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:59:39am

Snowden is a Paulbot?

383 simoom  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:00:19am

Greenwald’s personal feelings about what’s a “sensitive” classified program vs. WaPo & the Guardian:


WaPo’s Gellman:

NYT’s Charlie Savage & Gellman:

384 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:01:22am

re: #378 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You’d be suprised how often Pandas get served birthday cakes, sometimes made of ice if not ice cream.

cakechooser.com

So many cute pictures.

385 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:02:07am

re: #282 Vicious Babushka

Does anyone know where he was working prior to the BAH gig?

According to the Wikipedia entry contracting for the NSA on an army base in Japan and before that the CIA.

In 2003, Snowden enlisted in the United States Army with the hope of eventually joining the Special Forces. He was discharged after breaking both of his legs in a training accident. He then went to work as a security guard for a covert NSA facility at the University of Maryland. After that he went to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), where he worked on IT security.

In 2007, the CIA stationed him with diplomatic cover in Geneva, Switzerland, where he was responsible for maintaining computer network security. Leaving the CIA in 2009, he worked for a private contractor inside an NSA facility on a United States military base in Japan.[7]

At the time of his departure from the US in May 2013, he had been working for defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton for less than three months, as a system administrator inside of the NSA in Hawaii.[10][11] He described his life as “very comfortable,” living with his girlfriend and earning a salary of “roughly US$200,000.”[7]

386 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:03:10am

re: #383 simoom

Greenwald’s personal feelings about what’s a “sensitive” classified program vs. WaPo & the Guardian:

Oh look. More white dudes. Weird init?

387 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:04:01am

re: #347 Decatur Deb

Surprising consensus on the assholery of GG and Snowden, some argument about the details.

consensus on LGF or out-in-the-world?

388 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:04:20am

re: #385 Feline Fearless Leader

If he really was a good sysadmin, it’s possible he was making that amount or close to it. And it’s possible to be a good sysadmin while being not that smart about other topics, like where to flee too after espionage. Or maybe he’s a Chinese asset.

It’d be cool to watch this story unfold in a world that had journalistic standards.

389 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:05:10am

And if he was a sysadmin, and has been doing IT stuff, then he hasn’t been working as an ‘analyst’. Hasn’t he or someone else been claiming that he was an analyst?

390 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:05:12am

re: #356 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

We should really have a jar where everyone has to put in a dollar when they misuse ‘Orwellian’, ‘ironic’, and ‘Fascist’.

Wouldn’t that mean a dollar would be put in the jar every time someone uses the word fascist?

391 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:05:56am

re: #390 FemNaziBitch

Wouldn’t that mean a dollar would be put in the jar every time someone uses the word fascist?

Nah, there are actual fascists around.

392 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:05:57am

re: #390 FemNaziBitch

Wouldn’t that mean a dollar would be put in the jar every time someone uses the word fascist?

We’re going to need a bigger boat jar.

393 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:06:15am


Heh.

394 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:07:10am

re: #393 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

Manhattan [x]
Beard [x]
Emo [x]

395 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:07:19am

re: #393 NJDhockeyfan

Do you get the reference?

396 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:07:44am

re: #394 Gus

Manhattan [x]
Beard [x]
Emo [x]

Paultard [x]

397 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:08:12am

re: #396 Dr. Matt

Paultard [x]

Legalize pot and stop the endless wars now!

398 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:08:37am

re: #366 Vicious Babushka

My bet would be dysentery from some contaminated food, or knifed in a back alley in order to get their clothes.

399 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:08:47am
400 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:08:52am

re: #391 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Nah, there are actual fascists around.

Do even they have an actual definition of fascist? or do they argue amongst themselves about it?

401 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:09:06am

re: #394 Gus

He may actually be being dada:

nybooks.com

His obsession with fact, his knowing worldliness—wasn’t he merely the C. P. Snow of his day, and where are the Snows of yesteryear?

402 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:09:11am

Received three very creepy threatening emails last night, apparently from fans of Glenn Greenwald.

403 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:09:28am

re: #397 Gus

Legalize pot and stop the endless wars now!

And audit the Fed!!!!!!!!

404 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:09:37am

Where have all the white dudes gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the white dudes gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the white dudes gone?
NSA have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

405 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:10:07am

re: #402 Charles Johnson

Received three very creepy threatening emails last night, apparently from fans of Glenn Greenwald.

Really? Going to do a hate mail post?

406 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:10:11am

re: #401 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

He may actually be being dada:

nybooks.com

The band or the art movement?

407 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:10:24am

re: #400 FemNaziBitch

Do even they have an actual definition of fascist? or do they argue amongst themselves about it?

There is no actual definition of fascist, but it’s basically the intersection of nationalism, racism. corporatism, and militarism.

Calling the kids-to-prison pipeline ‘fascist’ wouldn’t be that far off base.

408 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:11:30am

re: #406 FemNaziBitch

The band or the art movement?

Or the album by Alice Cooper?

Youtube Video

409 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:12:42am

re: #405 Gus

Actually, I think I’m going to report them to the police.

410 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:15:44am

re: #400 FemNaziBitch

Do even they have an actual definition of fascist? or do they argue amongst themselves about it?

Pacifica radio once did some readings from 19th century fascist authors. Yes, people who could call themselves fascists.

I don’t remember much of it, except perhaps that it had what seemed to me radical social darwinism.

411 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:16:46am
412 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:16:46am
413 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:17:41am
414 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:17:42am
415 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:18:59am

Doesn’t that sound wonderful? Let’s hear MORE of Alex Jones fan Judge Napolitano’s outrage.

416 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:19:58am

re: #407 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

There is no actual definition of fascist, but it’s basically the intersection of nationalism, racism. corporatism, and militarism.

Calling the kids-to-prison pipeline ‘fascist’ wouldn’t be that far off base.

Umberto Eco’s “Ur-Fascism” gives a good working definition. An abridged version can be found here: themodernword.com

417 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:20:15am

Philadelphia building collapse update.

Backhoe operator has been arrested (surrendered self to police) and charged with six counts of involuntary manslaughter and additional reckless endangerment counts. A blood test taken two hours after the accident tested positively for prescription painkillers and marijuana.

usnews.nbcnews.com

Beyond that the mayor is politicizing it by scapegoating the man already. And his lawyers are saying that he is being used as a scapegoat. All pretty predictable.

At this point it’s pretty much going to be wait for a year or two for the case to work through the court system and see what comes out in a controlled environment.

Beyond that there probably will be civil suits flying around and more local media coverage on the victims.

418 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:21:23am

One thing I would like to say on Snowden’s behalf. Don’t mock him for being an HS drop out with a GED and somehow being a tech whiz. I graduated HS and received the “most improved” award. Never went to college, never received any training and am a software engineer and now manager. Just because someone didn’t go to college or finish actual High School doesn’t mean they can’t achieve something.

Heard T-Paw on MSNBC this morning mocking the fact he was an HS dropout. It bugged me a lot.

419 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:21:26am

re: #413 Charles Johnson

How outraged was Napolitano’s outrage when the NSA warrantless surveilance-phone-record-thing was uncovered during the W admin?

420 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:22:17am

re: #419 Bulworth

How outraged was Napolitano’s outrage when the NSA warrantless surveilance-phone-record-thing was uncovered during the W admin?

What W Administration? /

421 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:23:02am

re: #420 darthstar

What W Administration? /

ZOMG that was over three years ago you can’t mention it ever again everything is Obama’s fault and Republicans freed the slaves.

422 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:23:35am

re: #409 Charles Johnson

Actually, I think I’m going to report them to the police.

That bad huh?

423 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:24:10am

Wo ist der Schnee vom vergangenen Jahr?

424 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:24:33am

re: #418 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

One thing I would like to say on Snowden’s behalf. Don’t mock him for being an HS drop out with a GED and somehow being a tech whiz. I graduated HS and received the “most improved” award. Never went to college, never received any training and am a software engineer and now manager. Just because someone didn’t go to college or finish actual High School doesn’t mean they can’t achieve something.

Heard T-Paw on MSNBC this morning mocking the fact he was an HS dropout. It bugged me a lot.

IT is still a bit art as much as science in certain areas. One of the better IT analyst/programmers I have worked with has a degree in Biology, and I have worked in the field with non-degree programmers as well who are quite good in certain areas. Like many fields, once you get some experience and knowledge the actual degree does not mean much. (Though you may need one or more to get promoted above a certain level.)

425 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:25:29am

I can see a pro-Snowden protest easily turning into an anti-Israel protest.

426 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:26:45am

re: #418 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

One thing I would like to say on Snowden’s behalf. Don’t mock him for being an HS drop out with a GED and somehow being a tech whiz. I graduated HS and received the “most improved” award. Never went to college, never received any training and am a software engineer and now manager. Just because someone didn’t go to college or finish actual High School doesn’t mean they can’t achieve something.

Heard T-Paw on MSNBC this morning mocking the fact he was an HS dropout. It bugged me a lot.

Dropout+GED+tech smarts= plausible.
All that + NSA @ $200k = not quite so plausible. They, like the rest of the puzzle palaces, like paper proof too much.

427 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:27:25am

re: #426 William Barnett-Lewis

Dropout+GED+tech smarts= plausible.
All that + NSA @ $200k = not quite so plausible. They, like the rest of the puzzle palaces, like paper proof too much.

428 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:27:44am

re: #422 Gus

That bad huh?

Very creepy.

429 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:28:00am

Robertson Links ‘Demonic’ Dungeons & Dragons to Suicide

Today the 700 Club featured a news report on mental health and suicide, highlighting the tragic story of the suicide of the daughter of Southern Baptist leader Frank Page. Bizarrely, host Pat Robertson tried to link suicide to “demonic games” like Dungeons and Dragons, which he put on par with bulimia and anorexia.

Demons is a dirty word. The proper term is Tanar’ri. Robertson is just being a racist again.

430 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:28:16am
431 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:28:16am

re: #426 William Barnett-Lewis

Dropout+GED+tech smarts= plausible.
All that + NSA @ $200k = not quite so plausible. They, like the rest of the puzzle palaces, like paper proof too much.

Not impossible, but certainly working its way into that fuzzy extraordinary-claims-require-extraordinary-evidence realm. If I heard that from a guy at a party, I’d chuckle, congratulate him, and then go find someone honest to talk to.

432 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:28:35am

Here’s a question:
Is it possible that the “direct access to servers” claim IS correct, but that the companies involved need to lie about it due to market concerns AND due to the program being classified?

433 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:29:04am

re: #427 darthstar

On the plus side, I now have a new town I really want to visit.

Upper Macungie.

So much better than Lower Macungie.

434 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:29:54am

re: #432 stabby

Here’s a question:
Is it possible that the “direct access to servers” claim IS correct, but that the companies involved need to lie about it due to market concerns AND due to the program being classified?

It is worth doing this and then getting openly busted by one of your own employees who has some scruples about massively lying?

435 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:30:58am

re: #432 stabby

There’s no real way for the tech companies to be involved and not have it be an obvious gigantic conspiracy.

There is a way to involve the telcoms who pass the traffic from those dudes, but then that’s not ‘direct access’ to the servers, just to what’s coming off them and into them.

436 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:31:02am

The me the most compelling argument so far is that it would be technically infeasible. But it’s not always easy to guess what’s technically feasible.

437 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:31:31am

re: #432 stabby

Here’s a question:
Is it possible that the “direct access to servers” claim IS correct, but that the companies involved need to lie about it due to market concerns AND due to the program being classified?

No, not really. If the companies are lying they are risking a SERIOUS public relations disaster when (not if) the truth comes out.

It makes no sense to assume they would all lie about this.

438 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:32:37am

re: #435 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

:/ if they can routinely query traffic, then “access to servers” is a red herring because they have the equivalent.

439 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:33:27am

Hillary’s on Twitter, yall:

@HillaryClinton

440 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:33:40am

re: #437 Charles Johnson

Except, if their lawyers were convinced that they had no choice what would they do?

441 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:34:30am

re: #439 Bulworth

Hillary’s on Twitter, yall:

@HillaryClinton

She’s got a lot of followers for only one tweet.

442 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:34:35am

re: #440 stabby

Except, if their lawyers were convinced that they had no choice what would they do?

No lawyer would advise such high profile clients to lie about this.

443 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:35:14am

re: #441 wrenchwench

She’s got a lot of followers for only one tweet.

9,000 more since I followed about 10 minutes ago.

444 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:35:19am

Cute lizard!

445 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:35:32am

Think of the scenario as one with no out:
1) they HAVE to comply with the government and its amazingly sweeping court orders

2) they HAVE to lie about it because admitting it would destroy their business

I’m not saying I believe this scenario, but I can imagine it.

446 erik_t  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:35:51am

re: #442 Charles Johnson

No lawyer would advise such high profile clients to lie about this.

And no group of half a dozen independent lawyers would each advise each of their high profile clients to lie about this.

447 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:36:11am


Idiot.

448 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:36:20am

Greenwald Says ‘There’s A Lot More Coming,’ Argues NSA Revelations Don’t Harm Security

The Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald on Monday defended the 29-year-old who served as the source of one of the biggest intelligence leaks in history, arguing that the revelations of the National Security Agency’s sweeping surveillance programs only harmed “those in power who want to conceal their actions and their wrongdoing” while also foreshadowing future bombshells.

So glad that someone appoint Greenwald as the arbiter of all intelligence data for the security of the United States. I also have yet to hear about any abuses that came out of the program. Its operating exactly the way the Bush administration and Congress designed it to work. As for concealing actions, its the NSA is a covert intelligence operation, of course they conceal their actions, just the way the police or other law enforcement don’t discuss ongoing investigations with the public.

449 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:38:06am

re: #445 stabby

Think of the scenario as one with no out:
1) they HAVE to comply with the government and its amazingly sweeping court orders

2) they HAVE to lie about it because admitting it would destroy their business

I’m not saying I believe this scenario, but I can imagine it.

This is a meaningless discussion when you predefine the assumptions to belie your chosen argument.

450 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:38:42am

re: #445 stabby

Think of the scenario as one with no out:
1) they HAVE to comply with the government and its amazingly sweeping court orders

2) they HAVE to lie about it because admitting it would destroy their business

I’m not saying I believe this scenario, but I can imagine it.

I can imagine a scenario where Lucy Lawless and Mila Kunis battle for my love in an epic jello wrestling match, so its not outside the realm of possibility.

451 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:39:27am

re: #447 Gus

Let me guess - “OMG PBO is worse than Bush!!”

452 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:39:37am
453 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:39:58am

re: #438 stabby

:/ if they can routinely query traffic, then “access to servers” is a red herring because they have the equivalent.

No, querying traffic isn’t the equivalent. The traffic might be use-encrypted; I doubt that Facebook just sends uncompressed plaintext stuff from server to server.

454 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:40:10am

re: #452 NJDhockeyfan

Why the hell do you follow Mia Farrow?

455 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:40:11am

re: #423 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Wo ist der Schnee vom vergangenen Jahr?

I didn’t know where the “Snowdens of yesteryear” line came from in Catch-22, so you learn something new every day I guess.

456 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:40:13am

re: #448 Kragar

What we really need is some kind of court to oversee this thing. Oh wait…

//

457 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:40:36am

re: #452 NJDhockeyfan

Whoa! Mia?

458 Dr. Matt  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:41:15am

re: #447 Gus

459 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:41:34am

re: #457 Gus

Whoa! Mia?

Now I want to watch Annie Hall.

460 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:42:25am

re: #459 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Now I want to watch Annie Hall.

I think that Tweet will result in some splodey heads from her political fans.

461 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:42:42am

re: #453 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

What I mean is, it doesn’t matter whether it’s access to the server or their own copy of the data - the result is the same.

Since they only want to read data, not change it there could be technical ways they could have the equivalent to access without having access.

462 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:44:20am


Because if gay people can marry, you’ll be forced to love your wife less.

463 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:45:05am

re: #462 Kragar

Yeah, like all those serial divorcers who are allowed to marry.

//

464 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:45:18am

re: #387 FemNaziBitch

consensus on LGF or out-in-the-world?

LGF. We seem to be out of step with both ends of the blogosphere.

465 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:46:00am

re: #458 Dr. Matt

466 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:46:09am

:/ I wonder, if you know the private keys to SSL certificates do you have to play man in the middle to break the traffic or can you just record it and decrypt it afterwards?

467 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:46:31am

re: #461 stabby

What I mean is, it doesn’t matter whether it’s access to the server or their own copy of the data - the result is the same.

The result isn’t the same, though.

Since they only want to read data, not change it there could be technical ways they could have the equivalent to access without having access.

Only by getting a complete copy of every bit of data that went towards those servers, which is an astronomical amount and would require a really immense amount of processing power to sort in any meaningful way. If they want to have meaningful data, then they’d have to have a clone of the code interpreting it.

468 Sionainn  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:46:35am

re: #437 Charles Johnson

No, not really. If the companies are lying they are risking a SERIOUS public relations disaster when (not if) the truth comes out.

It makes no sense to assume they would all lie about this.

That’s been my thought. Their businesses would be destroyed.

469 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:47:15am

re: #462 Kragar

Because if gay people can marry, you’ll be forced to love your wife less.

Gay marriage supports straight marriage just like flying buttresses support otherwise free-standing walls.

Gay marriage strengthens straight marriage just like synthetic drugs strengthen the body’s immune system.

Gay marriage strengthens straight marriage just like military alliances strengthen nation-states.

How work do they, analogies?

470 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:48:00am

re: #468 Sionainn

That’s been my thought. Their businesses would be destroyed.

And as Charles pointed out, it’s not a matter of if that came out, it’s a matter of when.

471 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:49:25am

re: #467 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The result isn’t the same, though.

Only by getting a complete copy of every bit of data that went towards those servers, which is an astronomical amount and would require a really immense amount of processing power to sort in any meaningful way. If they want to have meaningful data, then they’d have to have a clone of the code interpreting it.

I don’t know if this is what Stabby is trying to say, but in theory, you could be maintaining a listen-only mirror of Facebook’s servers, and just have them set up a one-way stream of their mirroring protocol.

I don’t know if this is what’s being talked about and to be honest I don’t really care, but technically there’s no reason that wouldn’t work that I can think of.

472 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:49:54am

re: #468 Sionainn

That’s been my thought. Their businesses would be destroyed.

I think their businesses would be destroyed if they allowed access AND admitted to it freely. I don’t think lying makes all that much difference here.

That’s why my scenario, between a rock and a hard place.

473 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:50:04am

re: #442 Charles Johnson

No lawyer would advise such high profile clients to lie about this.

They’ve retained Carl Lazlo, Esq.

en.wikipedia.org

474 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:51:07am

re: #471 iossarian

But then you just get the uinterpreted data, and so you have to spend all that time and processing power interpreting and sorting it.

I mean, even the small-scale version of this, like, if they just directly accessed the servers, would cost more than the $20 million a year on the presentation. something where they collected all the data that went to google and performed analysis and sorting on it— I mean, that’s a fuckload of money.

475 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:51:28am

re: #465 Gus

Let’s get the whole gang together. //

476 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:52:15am

@HillaryClinton

Wife, mom, lawyer, women & kids advocate, FLOAR, FLOTUS, US Senator, SecState, author, dog owner, hair icon, pantsuit aficionado, glass ceiling cracker, TBD..

477 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:52:39am

re: #469 iossarian

Gay marriage strengthens straight marriage just like Pinkie supports The Brain.

In retrospect I shouldn’t hit “submit”

478 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:52:51am

re: #475 Bulworth

Let’s get the whole gang together. //

Treason’s just another word, for nothing left to lose…

479 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:53:31am

Good.

480 Sionainn  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:53:34am

re: #470 Dr Lizardo

And as Charles pointed out, it’s not a matter of if that came out, it’s a matter of when.

Exactly.

481 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:53:57am

re: #472 stabby

I think their businesses would be destroyed if they allowed access AND admitted to it freely. I don’t think lying makes all that much difference here.

That’s why my scenario, between a rock and a hard place.

The cover-up always causes more damage than the crime. And once you give in to those government “demands” you have essentially handed them the keys since the extortion material is there and you have caved.

The execs and lawyers are hardcore enough to know this - and that agreeing will eventually leak.

And, on the other hand, you can also arguably aid your public perception by opening publishing the demand (taping it secretly if necessary) and whistleblowing on government bullying and blackmail at the official corporate level.

482 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:54:10am

re: #478 Gus

All we need now is the Palin Bus!

/

483 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:54:49am

re: #482 Bulworth

All we need now is the Palin Bus!

/

Are the horn repairs on the Romney Bus completed?

484 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:55:35am

re: #477 stabby

Gay marriage strengthens straight marriage just like Pinkie supports The Brain.

In retrospect I shouldn’t hit “submit”

Food for thought:

On Pinkie and the Brain, they said “One is a genius. The other’s insane”.

They never specified which one was which, and by order of their names in the title sequence, it would imply Pinkie was the genius.

Now go back and watch the episodes and you’ll see Pinkie was the smart one, while Brain was clearly the one with severe mental issues.

485 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:55:37am

re: #481 Feline Fearless Leader

And, on the other hand, you can also arguably aid your public perception by opening publishing the demand (taping it secretly if necessary) and whistleblowing on government bullying and blackmail at the official corporate level.

Or the result might be that a foreign company that doesn’t have to comply with the US government takes your customers.

486 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:55:38am
487 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:55:40am

re: #374 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m leaning towards Wednesday or Alex for girls, and Alex or Ryan for boys.

Pat or Chris for either.

488 Sionainn  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:55:45am

re: #472 stabby

I think their businesses would be destroyed if they allowed access AND admitted to it freely. I don’t think lying makes all that much difference here.

That’s why my scenario, between a rock and a hard place.

I don’t think they would be destroyed if they all said that they were forced by law to allow access. People would be mad at the government, not the companies. If they come out and say that they have given no access to the government, and it comes out they all lied about it, they’ve lost the trust of their customers.

489 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:55:54am

re: #474 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m not saying it necessarily fits the apparent facts of the matter (wrt cost especially), or anything like that. Just that it would be technically possible.

I can’t see why in theory the NSA couldn’t have a private Facebook mirror that received updates and behaved exactly like a public-facing server would. Whether that would satisfy a lawyer to say that they didn’t have “direct access” to Facebook servers? I don’t know that either. Lawyers have strange definitions of IT implementations.

490 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:56:44am

Patchouli oil and gun powder.

491 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:57:01am

re: #485 stabby

Or the result might be that a foreign company that doesn’t have to comply with the US government takes your customers.

Which is why KBR is based in the Bahamas.

492 The Mountain That Blogs  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:57:04am

re: #476 Gus

TBD..

That TBD is gonna generate some 2016 speculation, isn’t it.

493 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:57:52am

re: #492 The Mountain That Blogs

That TBD is gonna generate some 2016 speculation, isn’t it.

Yep. Or in whatever she sees as her future. She’ll do something I’m sure.

494 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:57:53am
495 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:59:12am

re: #409 Charles Johnson

Actually, I think I’m going to report them to the police.

Holy shit.

496 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:00:15am

re: #488 Sionainn

But there have always been people who assume that the government reads or can read their mail without a court order. And there will always be people who trust company spokesmen etc.

I just get this feeling that the only really fatal move is admitting that you give unlimited access. That being accused of it is just noise in comparison.

497 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:01:05am

Taped a few days earlier in a army Google HQ office:

Dino: Oh see my brother’s clumsy Colonel, and when he gets unhappy he breaks things. Like say, he don’t feel the army’s playing fair by him, he may start breaking things, Colonel.

Colonel: What is all this about?

Luigi: How many men you got here, Colonel?

Colonel: Oh, er… seven thousand infantry, six hundred artillery, and er, two divisions of paratroops.

Luigi: Paratroops, Dino.

Dino: Be a shame if someone was to set fire to them.

Colonel: Set fire to them?

Luigi: Fires happen, Colonel.

Dino: Things burn.

498 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:02:00am

re: #491 darthstar

KBR?

Kentucky Braised Rat?

499 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:03:13am

re: #498 stabby

KBR?

Kentucky Braised Rat?

One of the incarnations of Halliburton’s bolt-turners.

500 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:04:38am

re: #424 Feline Fearless Leader

IT is still a bit art as much as science in certain areas. One of the better IT analyst/programmers I have worked with has a degree in Biology, and I have worked in the field with non-degree programmers as well who are quite good in certain areas. Like many fields, once you get some experience and knowledge the actual degree does not mean much. (Though you may need one or more to get promoted above a certain level.)

I have a degree in Computer Science which I am sure has opened a few doors. Even though it is from 1986 so all of the skills that I learned then are obsolete. However I am also female and it’s hard for a Vagina-American to get ahead in this field.

501 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:04:47am

re: #464 Decatur Deb

LGF. We seem to be out of step with both ends of the blogosphere.

And I’m surprisingly okay with that.

Yes, the Obama administration has done things I disagree with, and the Patriot Act is a steaming pile of emotional bullshit and bad law, but that’s no reason to defend Snowden.

502 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:04:48am

re: #499 Decatur Deb

One of the incarnations of Halliburton’s bolt-turners.

Are they the electrified shower-head specialists?

503 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:04:48am

re: #489 iossarian

Well, they’d have to have lifted Facebooks code. Anyway, the cost of that system would just be goddamn staggering.

504 blueraven  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:05:10am

re: #496 stabby

But there have always been people who assume that the government reads or can read their mail without a court order. And there will always be people who trust company spokesmen etc.

I just get this feeling that the only really fatal move is admitting that you give unlimited access. That being accused of it is just noise in comparison.

If they are so bound by orders, then they would say nothing…no comment. Lying would be the worst possible move. Why cant you understand that? Maybe you can, but just want to argue a stupid point until you need to rush to work or something, as usual.

505 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:05:23am
506 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:05:31am

re: #502 iossarian

Are they the electrified shower-head specialists?

Yup—through host-nation hires.

507 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:06:16am

re: #503 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, they’d have to have lifted Facebooks code. Anyway, the cost of that system would just be goddamn staggering.

Oh, I see what you mean. I was wondering if they could have got Facebook to set it up for them. That would have been much simpler.

508 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:07:04am

re: #506 Decatur Deb

Yup—through host-nation hires.

Hey, as long as it keeps the pallets of cash rolling in.

509 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:07:18am

According to this video from DHS -“commerical sex involving minors is defined as human trafficking” —and therefore is a federal crime? no?

Am I reading this correctly?

Section 1591 is called “Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion.” Most people think of “trafficking” as involving movement across state or international borders. However, Section 1591 does not require proof that either the defendant or victim crossed state or international lines.

When the victim is a minor, Section 1591 does not require proof that the defendant used force, threats of force, fraud, or coercion, or any combination of those means, to cause the minor to engage in a commercial sex act.

Section 1591 applies equally to American children (U.S. citizens or residents) who are prostituted within the United States, as well as foreign nationals (persons not a U.S. citizen or resident) who are brought into the United States and are then caused to engage in prostitution. The law also criminalizes any person who conspires or attempts to commit this crime.

Of course all this is designed to help law enforcement, not to ensure human rights.

510 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:07:29am
511 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:07:47am

re: #510 Gus

Well of course it is.
/

512 Gus  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:09:02am

re: #511 Kragar

Well of course it is.
/

Yeah. Obama and the MB. That would explain the women in his cabinet. //

513 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:09:02am

re: #510 Gus

Don’t worry, the NSA has recorded everything at the DOJ.

514 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:09:12am

re: #504 blueraven

If they are so bound by orders, then they would say nothing…no comment. Lying would be the worst possible move. Why cant you understand that? Maybe you can, but just want to argue a stupid point until you need to rush to work or something, as usual.

Maybe it’s something I’ve learned from ugly politics both here and in worse places than the US.

People, parties, and I suppose companies, can go an eternity without admitting the truth no matter how many people know that truth - and they will maintain their base through lying.

515 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:09:14am

re: #433 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

On the plus side, I now have a new town I really want to visit.

Upper Macungie.

So much better than Lower Macungie.

How does one pronounce “Macungie” ?

sounds like a virus

516 piratedan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:09:18am

re: #507 iossarian

There’s no way that they could have kept that secret, after all, Facebook changes it’s privacy settings each time they send out an update and there’s no government agency in the world that can remember to update all of those privacy settings each time it happens.

517 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:09:47am

re: #510 Gus

I think we’re going to have to add “de facto” to the list of fine jar terms.

518 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:10:23am

re: #441 wrenchwench

She’s got a lot of followers for only one tweet.

now she has one more!

519 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:10:46am

re: #502 iossarian

Are they the electrified shower-head specialists?

Large non-union construction and engineering firm head quartered in Houston and holder of a lot of support contracts overseas for handling military logistics.

Also has admitted using Caymen Island shell corporations for hiring overseas contract employees; including over 10,000 Americans. For which they therefore do not pay Medicare and SS taxes.

And yes they are also the ones who electrified shower heads.

520 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:11:30am

re: #515 FemNaziBitch

How does one pronounce “Macungie” ?

sounds like a virus

Or a form of Scottish post-punk

521 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:11:35am

Harry saved me from gay hate attack: Prince in extraordinary showdown with troops who threatened gunner

A gay soldier told last night how Prince Harry bravely rescued him from a terrifying homophobic attack by squaddies from a rival regiment.

The Prince stepped in to save Trooper James Wharton after he was confronted by six soldiers threatening to ‘batter’ him.

Trooper Wharton fled to find Harry - who was his tank commander - and tearfully told the Prince what had happened.

‘I told him, “I think I’m going to be murdered by the infantry.” I climbed into the turret and talked Harry through exactly what had happened. He had a complete look of bewilderment on his face.

‘I couldn’t stop the tears from welling up in my eyes. He said, “Right I’m going to sort this s*** out once and for all.”

‘He climbed out of the tank and I poked my head out of the turret a few moments later to see him having a go,’ Wharton said.

Harry, a Troop Commander in the Blues and Royals, confronted the tormentors, warning them they would face severe discipline if they continued their violent threats.

‘I could see he wasn’t holding back,’ said Wharton, who was 21 at the time.

After taking on the gang, Harry briefed a senior officer before returning to assure Wharton the situation had been ‘sorted’.

The soldier, who quit the Army earlier this year, said: ‘I will always be grateful to Harry and I will never forget what happened. Until he went over and dealt with everything I was on track for a battering.’

523 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:11:47am

re: #517 iossarian

I think we’re going to have to add “de facto” to the list of fine jar terms.

My “the journalist should be fired” word is “amid” since it’s an admission that you’re trying to create an impression of causation, but you know that you got bupkis.

Also “utilize” since it means “use” and YOU SHOULD USE “USE”!

524 AntonSirius  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:12:44am

Erm…


So Greenwald re-asserts bragging rights to the story over WaPo by saying he’d been in contact with Snowden from before Snowden got the job that him access to the stuff he leaked?

I’m having trouble counting all the ways that doesn’t make any sense.

525 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:13:40am
526 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:14:07am

Lost in the news: Apple releases new Mac Pro.

Oh well, the techies are all in a tizzy over Snowden which means Apple will have to work harder to get the love.

527 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:14:35am

re: #525 FemNaziBitch

What …?

Rochester Man Charged with Sale of Counterfeit Postage Stamps

The Benedict Arnold commemorative block gave him away.

528 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:15:03am

re: #510 Gus

New Black Panther Party, too. //

529 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:16:14am

re: #519 Feline Fearless Leader

Large non-union construction and engineering firm head quartered in Houston and holder of a lot of support contracts overseas for handling military logistics.

Also has admitted using Caymen Island shell corporations for hiring overseas contract employees; including over 10,000 Americans. For which they therefore do not pay Medicare and SS taxes.

And yes they are also the ones who electrified shower heads.

Yup. I know quite a bit about KBR/Halliburton. I was just venting some of my lefty frustration.

re: #516 piratedan

There’s no way that they could have kept that secret, after all, Facebook changes it’s privacy settings each time then send out an update and there’s no government agency in the world that can remember to update all of those privacy settings each time it happens.

Not sure why this (privacy updates) is a bigger deal than any of the data/metadata that Facebook servers would be mirroring.

As a “cloud entity”, Facebook is basically a DB with web servers sitting between it and the masses. Mirrors of that DB constantly update each other with the result of recent client transactions (75% of which are cat photos according to my FB friend). I was only wondering if a listen-only mirror of the DB would satisfy the companies’ claims that they don’t allow direct access to their servers.

I must add that I don’t really care either way. If people think this is unrealistic for whatever reason I am quite happy to be enlightened.

530 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:20:51am

re: #527 Decatur Deb

It was the George W issue of the Great Orators stamps.

This from another blog (with > for quote level):
>>”Would Bush have gone to bed while he knew Americans were being attacked by terrorists in Benghazi?”
>>He was willing to read a children’s book when he knew the WTC was under attack.

>Woa
>This is pernicious and insidious. It is better to needlessly scare a group of children. Wait then lefties will complain about that.
>At least Bush can read a book and speak eloquently without a teleprompter.

[me]
“At least Bush can read a book and speak eloquently without a teleprompter.”

Put your psychiatrist on danger pay, baby!

531 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:26:36am

re: #243 freetoken

Surprisingly many of these jobs aren’t easy to fill because there aren’t a lot of people who can do them. I often wondered about who gets hired for many of these positions - former military officers who were intel weenies always got the best pick, from my (now dated) experience. The go-fer jobs tended to be filled by anyone who happened to have the clearance and was willing to work in whatever strange location was on offer.

But there are lots of military folks in Honolulu who would love to retire (as O-5 intel analysts, for example) who would love to walk into this job for 100K. We know a few retiring/retired O-5s who fit the bill. Instead the company hires this douchebag? It just kinda proves to me that lots of HR departments are staffed by idiots who pass by qualified applicants.

532 A Mom Anon  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:27:05am

re: #473 Decatur Deb

I was thinking the offices of Bob Loblaw, Esq.

533 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:28:38am

re: #525 FemNaziBitch

What …?

Rochester Man Charged with Sale of Counterfeit Postage Stamps

you’d have to sell a hell of a lot of stamps to make it worth the federal charge

534 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:31:49am

Supreme Court make any announcements yet?

535 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:32:50am

re: #508 iossarian

Hey, as long as it keeps the pallets of cash rolling in.

Someone needs to start a rumor that hundreds of thousands of dollar bills on pallets were flown to Afghanistan and just disappeared. Then when the short attention span, even shorter memory freeps start howling you say, “Oh sorry, that was Bush that did that.”. Playing games with the ODS crowd.

536 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:37:31am

re: #402 Charles Johnson

Received three very creepy threatening emails last night, apparently from fans of Glenn Greenwald.

Did you trace the IP addresses? They may all be Glenn Greenwald.

537 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:40:33am

re: #321 erik_t

My Stabby-sense is tingling.

Valtrex works for that.

538 iossarian  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:41:02am

re: #535 Eventual Carrion

Someone needs to start a rumor that hundreds of thousands of dollar bills on pallets were flown to Afghanistan and just disappeared. Then when the short attention span, even shorter memory freeps start howling you say, “Oh sorry, that was Bush that did that.”. Playing games with the ODS crowd.

It doesn’t even matter who did it. Bush was bad, see? No-one voted for him - they all voted for Ron Paul.


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