WaPo: “When He Said He Had Access to Every CIA Station Around the World, He’s Lying”

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US News • Views: 27,252

The latest news on Edward Snowden and the machinery he set into motion: Investigators Looking at How Snowden Gained Access at NSA.

Administration officials said Monday that they are working to confirm that Snowden leaked the documents and build a case against him without relying on his admissions in his video interview with the Guardian. Investigators also need to determine whether anyone else was involved in disclosing the information to reporters, officials said.

FBI agents are interviewing Snowden’s family and associates, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the investigation.

Snowden, who said he leaked top-secret documents to expose abuse and not to cause damage to the United States, told the Guardian that he had “full access to the rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all around the world, the locations of every station we have, what their missions are and so forth.”

Officials questioned some of Snowden’s assertions in his interview with the Guardian, saying that several of his claims seemed exaggerated. Among them were assertions that he could order wiretaps on anyone from “a federal judge to even the president.”

“When he said he had access to every CIA station around the world, he’s lying,” said a former senior agency official, who added that information is so closely compartmented that only a handful of top-ranking executives at the agency could access it.

Current and former administration officials were flummoxed by Snowden’s claim that he was authorized to access the orders from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

The order probably would have been accessible to the NSA general counsel’s office, the compliance office that deals with the court, and the operational arm carrying out the collection, former officials said.

One former NSA official said the NSA employs layers of security to scrutinize employees, including keystroke-monitoring systems to identify potential breaches or unwarranted searches of NSA databases.

Joel Brenner, a former NSA inspector general, said any investigation needs to focus on how Snowden “had access to such a startling range of information.”

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507 comments

1 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:10:49pm

By the way, this is exactly what I was saying earlier today in our comments. There are some serious holes in Snowden’s story.

2 jaunte  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:15:07pm
The government contractor confirmed that Snowden had worked there for the past three months in an office in Hawaii. He flew to Hong Kong after telling his supervisor in Hawaii that he needed medical treatment for epilepsy.

That seems like a fairly pointless lie.

3 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:16:40pm

re: #2 jaunte

Pfft. We all know that Obamacare means that there are no treatments for epilepsy in the United States. Or something.

///

4 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:17:12pm

It seems the Washington Post is in full retreat from this story.

5 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:18:13pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

It seems the Washington Post is in full retreat from this story.

They should be. It puts their entire credibility as a news source at risk.

6 jaunte  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:18:34pm

re: #3 Lidane

I mean, if you’re going to break open the biggest story of the decade, why not either allude to it, or just leave without faking ‘medical treatments’.

7 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:21:24pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

It seems the Washington Post is in full retreat from this story.

They jumped on this story to play “Me Too!” and got burned badly.

8 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:26:53pm

re: #6 jaunte

I mean, if you’re going to break open the biggest story of the decade, why not either allude to it, or just leave without faking ‘medical treatments’.

At the very least, you just say you’re taking vacation time to go to Hong Kong. No reason to invent some elaborate medical lie.

9 darthstar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:27:07pm

But Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow say…PANIC PANIC PANIC!!!

It’s times like this when I seek refuge in NPR.

10 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:27:51pm

I’m losing a lot of respect for a lot of different people. Lots of folks are jumping on this—mostly trying to make it fit into a partisan agenda—and the so-called “whistleblower” hasn’t even released anything that proves his assertions.

11 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:29:10pm

If they are doing it right, no single person knows about all the CIA stations, let alone has access.

12 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:31:51pm

re: #9 darthstar

It’s times like this when I seek refuge in NPR.

It’s times like this that Spotify gets me through the workday.

Also, E3 is this week, so I’ll be distracting myself by watching a bunch of neckbeards arguing over video games. Hah.

13 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:34:09pm

re: #12 Lidane

It’s times like this that Spotify gets me through the workday.

Also, E3 is this week, so I’ll be distracting myself by watching a bunch of neckbeards arguing over video games. Hah.

PS4’s the cheaper console this generation. Definitely didn’t see that one coming.

14 jaunte  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:38:10pm

Greg Sargent:
How to get that `balance’ right on NSA spying

The gathering of phone records is the result of the government’s interpretation of section 215 of the Patriot Act, which expanded the government’s ability to collect records while lowering the standard required to allow it, in ways civil libertarians believe violates the 4th Amendment. This statute could be narrowed by moving to what Richardson calls a “suspicion-based” standard. Under this standard, the government could not do a massive open-ended dragnet compilation of phone records. Instead, it could get a court’s permission to gather the phone records, i.e., the meta-data*, of someone reasonably suspected of being a terrorist or spy — or someone who has been contacted by one of those people, [Michelle Richardson, legislative counsel for the ACLU] argues.

*The meta-data would still have to be stored somewhere, and secured somehow.

15 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:42:04pm

re: #12 Lidane

It’s times like this that Spotify gets me through the workday.

Also, E3 is this week, so I’ll be distracting myself by watching a bunch of neckbeards arguing over video games. Hah.

XBox pissed me off today. They will never get my business.

16 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:42:43pm

re: #15 Kragar

XBox pissed me off today. They will never get my business.

They did that to me weeks ago with the announcement about used games. What did I miss today?

17 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:42:59pm

re: #2 jaunte

That seems like a fairly pointless lie.

If the leave was a short notice request, and being only 3 months on the job kind of supports this, then he had to manufacture some kind of excuse for it. The guy apparently was diagnosed with epilepsy in the past year or two and and since most people aren’t super eager to discuss their neurological disorders it’s the kind of cover story that isn’t likely to be second-guessed too much.

What I don’t get is why he didn’t head straight for Iceland since asylum there was plan A all along. Going to Hong Kong first seems like a huge strategic miscalculation.

18 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:43:34pm

re: #16 Targetpractice

They did that to me weeks ago with the announcement about used games. What did I miss today?

Inviting a female gamer on stage for a demo and making rape jokes.

19 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:44:24pm

re: #17 goddamnedfrank

I

What I don’t get is why he didn’t head straight for Iceland since asylum there was plan A all along. Going to Hong Kong first seems like a huge strategic miscalculation.

Get Bjork on the line! We need an expert opinion from one of Iceland’s premiere babes!!!

20 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:45:05pm

re: #18 Kragar

Inviting a female gamer on stage for a demo and making rape jokes.

Oh yeah, I think Sony’s pretty much set to win this console generation. Microsoft hasn’t just shot itself in the foot, it’s blown it off with a bazooka.

21 jaunte  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:45:09pm

re: #17 goddamnedfrank

It’s just weird all the way around. Giving an excuse to get off work is something you do when you want to come back.

22 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:45:35pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

PS4’s the cheaper console this generation. Definitely didn’t see that one coming.

I wasn’t interested in the PS4 until they showed Elder Scrolls Online. Bastards. Although the Sony press conference got a huge ovation from the crowd when they talked about being able to play used games and not having to be connected online all the time.

I still like the lineup on the Xbox One better, but I’ll be damned if I’m paying $499 upfront plus whatever for an extra controller and accessories. Screw that. I’m going to wait unitl the inevitable first round of price cuts before I get a new console.

23 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:46:57pm

re: #17 goddamnedfrank

If the leave was a short notice request, and being only 3 months on the job kind of supports this, then he had to manufacture some kind of excuse for it. The guy apparently was diagnosed with epilepsy in the past year or two and and since most people aren’t super eager to discuss their neurological disorders it’s the kind of cover story that isn’t likely to be second-guessed too much.

What I don’t get is why he didn’t head straight for Iceland since asylum there was plan A all along. Going to Hong Kong first seems like a huge strategic miscalculation.

First guess, easier to get a non-stop flight to HK than to gamble on being caught changing flights on the way to Iceland. Any flight from Hawaii would require either refueling or changing planes in North America, which would mean if the NSA was on the ball, they’d be waiting for him at the airport.

24 krypto  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:49:06pm

Snowdon sounds more and more like he chose Hong Kong because he seriously expects to (1) scare US authorities into staying clear because he can give secrets to China, (2) possibly expecting that he really can use what he knows to get Chinese protection. Either of these could be leading him to play up the value of what he could give them. If so, he is severely underestimating just who he is dealing with.

25 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:50:09pm

re: #22 Lidane

Speaking of which, from the last thread:

Well, Final Fantasy Versus XIII has now become Final Fantasy XV. It has also been shifted to the PS4.

Kingdom Hearts 3 is also now in development.

26 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:50:19pm

re: #24 krypto

Snowdon sounds more and more like he chose Hong Kong because he seriously expects to (1) scare US authorities into staying clear because he can give secrets to China, (2) possibly expecting that he really can use what he knows to get Chinese protection, and has therefore been hyping the value of what he could give them. If so, he is severely underestimating just who he is dealing with.

Indeed. He’s gambling on China being more worried about potential diplomatic backlash to his “disappearing” than any potential intelligence windfall that would be had by grabbing him off the street and pumping him for information.

27 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:51:01pm

re: #21 jaunte

It’s just weird all the way around. Giving an excuse to get off work is something you do when you want to come back.

This wasn’t a normal job. Quitting or just leaving without notice might have triggered either exit counseling or a full blown investigation. He wanted to buy time to make it to another jurisdiction without setting off alarm bells.

28 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:51:16pm

re: #24 krypto

If so, he is severely underestimating just who he is dealing with.

I’m pretty sure that he underestimated a whole lot of things when he got the idea to leak government secrets.

29 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:52:07pm

re: #28 Lidane

I’m pretty sure that he underestimated a whole lot of things when he got the idea to leak government secrets.

Never underestimate the power of a schnook!!!

30 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:53:03pm

As it stands, the only XBox exclusive I’m interested in is Dead Rising 3. I can do without another Halo or Metal Gear, and the rest of its exclusive lineup looks forgettable. Unless it’s hiding Fallout 4 up its sleeve, I can get along fine with a PS4. At least I won’t have a Kinect camera watching me all the time that way.

31 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 9:55:16pm

re: #30 Targetpractice

Same here. Still want to get the PS3 though, for the combination of Blu-Ray player, and the Kingdome Hearts thingy coming out on it. Maybe a few other things.

I’ll wait for a price drop of the PS4.

32 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:00:13pm

re: #24 krypto

The more I read about this moron, the more he reminds me of the idiots who tried stealing trade secrets from Coca-Cola and selling them to Pepsi. Pepsi not only alerted Coca-Cola to what was going on, but they also called the FBI and helped set up a sting to catch the people involved.

I’m not delusional enough to think the Chinese would line up to help us apprehend Snowden, but you can’t ever really tell. I mean, yeah, they want to know our secrets, but at the same time it’s also in their interest to maintain good relations with the US, and extraditing Snowden is a strong possibility.

33 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:05:58pm

re: #30 Targetpractice

As it stands, the only XBox exclusive I’m interested in is Dead Rising 3. I can do without another Halo or Metal Gear, and the rest of its exclusive lineup looks forgettable. Unless it’s hiding Fallout 4 up its sleeve, I can get along fine with a PS4. At least I won’t have a Kinect camera watching me all the time that way.

I really liked Project Spark. It looked like something I could kill ridiculous amounts of time with. Also, I’m a fan of Insomniac Games and Sunset Overdrive looked funny. Also, this pleased me greatly:

Youtube Video

I’m not buying a damned thing when either console launches. They’re still going to make 360 games for at least another year. No reason to be an early adopter. Gimme at least one round of price drops and a solid slate of games first.

34 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:07:45pm

re: #18 Kragar

Inviting a female gamer on stage for a demo and making rape jokes.

whoa. my son may have to change to Sony for his next generation console. thanks for posting that.

35 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:16:41pm

re: #27 goddamnedfrank

This wasn’t a normal job. Quitting or just leaving without notice might have triggered either exit counseling or a full blown investigation. He wanted to buy time to make it to another jurisdiction without setting off alarm bells.

True. Still, if you’re going to lie and ditch your job, at least say you’re going on vacation, or you had a personal family emergency or something.

36 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:17:15pm

Ok, so Greenwald is, um, let’s be charitable and say “difficult”. OK, he’s an egomaniac. And rude. And humorless. Whatever.
And some of the details of Snowden’s story are conflicting/ambiguous/implausible. I mean how smart is it to end up cornered in an expensive hotel in Hong Kong with a towel over your laptop so nobody can see what you’re typing?
No fight out of me with any of that.

But look. The only way that intel gathering can work is if they scoop up everything they can, then massage the data to find what they’re looking for. Patterns. Absence of usual patterns. All that.
Intel doesn’t work if it’s common knowledge that there’s some stuff they don’t gather, for reasons that should be too obvious to dwell upon.

Furthermore, all intel gathering programs strive for maximum efficiency, just like a lot of other operations in all kinds of fields. You want to get things right.
In an intel setting the logical end point in that drive to maximize efficiency is to monitor everything all the time. That’s when you can be sure you’re not missing anything, and that’s the only time you can be sure, so that’s the natural gravitational pull that’s always acting on the operation.

This means, unless there are no laws at all governing intel gathering, that there will always be tension between what the intel community wants to do, and is capable of doing, and what they are allowed to do, and people being people means that lines will get crossed all the time and lies will be told to disguise that fact.

And lies will be told to Senators and Congresspeople and whoever else with oversight who needs to be thrown off the scent. There has never been a moment in history when this kind of thing was not the case.

I’m not sure why Charles has come out swinging against the stories that the Guardian is carrying right out of the box like that, and it’s not even my business to explore that obvious animosity.

But in spite of Greenwald’s monster ego, and in spite of his obvious leanings to make it about him as much as the market will bear, these reports, some of them by some very old Guardian hands with years of experience in journalism (and Greenwald is no journalist no matter what he says), raise some important questions that cannot simply be marginalized by routine assertions from the very people who stand to be made to look foolish if even a small part of them are true.

There is no logical reason to believe everything in the Guardian or any other source, but neither is there a logical reason to believe that Al Franken or anyone else on his committee are being told the truth, or that the reports now emerging from the NSA are truthful about Snowden’s access or much of anything else either, and there is both motive and opportunity for those people to be very disingenuous about what they will and will not admit to.

37 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:17:55pm

re: #34 funky chicken

Rape joke at Microsoft conference: ‘Just let it happen, it’ll be over soon’

producer for the Killer Instinct sequel for Microsoft’s upcoming Xbox One console was brought out on the stage and matched with a female less-experienced Xbox live community manager.

“Whoever thought it was a good idea that I play against a producer is going to get it,” the Xbox manager complained as the fight began.

“Come on, you got to practice before you get on stage before millions of people,” the producer taunted.

“I can’t even block!” the frustrated manager said, obviously overwhelmed by the on-screen beat down. “You’re too fast!”

“Just let it happen, it’ll be over soon,” the producer advised, drawing groans and laughter from the audience.

“You have a fight stick!” the manager exclaimed.

“Wow, you like this,” the producer remarked as his continued the thrashing.

“No, I don’t like this!” the manager insisted.

Video game designer Jonathan Blow observed that the banter was “awkward” at best.

“‘Let’s bring a woman on stage and joke about how she’s bad at games, and say stuff like ‘relax, just let it happen, it’ll be over soon’??” Blow tweeted.

“It sure sounded like a rape joke. I doubt they planned in advance to have a rape joke in the show, but that is how it came across,”

38 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:19:53pm

re: #33 Lidane

I really liked Project Spark. It looked like something I could kill ridiculous amounts of time with. Also, I’m a fan of Insomniac Games and Sunset Overdrive looked funny.

I’m not buying a damned thing when either console launches. They’re still going to make 360 games for at least another year. No reason to be an early adopter. Gimme at least one round of price drops and a solid slate of games first.

Project Spark certainly looks interesting, but unless they’ve massively upgraded the Kinect, I can see a lot of folks quickly getting frustrated with trying to get voice-control to work for 10 minutes and then just turning it off.

And I’ll wait for some in-game footage of Sunset Overdrive before I get interested. Pre-rendered cinematics just does not do it for me anymore.

39 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:22:24pm

re: #36 gunnison

I’m not sure why Charles has come out swinging against the stories that the Guardian is carrying right out of the box like that, and it’s not even my business to explore that obvious animosity.

I won’t speak for Charles, but call it a hunch — I think the fact that the stories are bullshit has a lot to do with whatever “animosity” you’re seeing.

There is no logical reason to believe everything in the Guardian or any other source, but neither is there a logical reason to believe that Al Franken or anyone else on his committee are being told the truth, or that the reports now emerging from the NSA are truthful about Snowden’s access or much of anything else either, and there is both motive and opportunity for those people to be very disingenuous about what they will and will not admit to.

So we should accept Snowden’s lies because someone else may be lying about something else? WTF.

40 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:24:42pm

re: #25 ProTARDISLiberal

Speaking of which, from the last thread:

Well, Final Fantasy Versus XIII has now become Final Fantasy XV. It has also been shifted to the PS4.

Kingdom Hearts 3 is also now in development.

Could almost be tempting. Need to wait and see what is the follow on to the DS3 before I get too excited though.

41 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:25:06pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

They look interesting, but the fact the 360’s got at least another year of support left, if not longer, makes me satisfied with waiting for a while before upgrading. I’ve learned my lesson about buying any new gadget when it first launches.

42 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:27:16pm

re: #37 Kragar

Yeah, hahaha. My son is 16 and he knows better than that.

43 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:29:31pm

re: #36 gunnison

neither is there a logical reason to believe that Al Franken or anyone else on his committee are being told the truth

Um, fail. Fewer movies.

44 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:30:06pm

re: #36 gunnison

I know next to nothing about who Edward Snowden is or what makes him tick. It’s not even been 48 hours and already the guy he portrayed himself has so badly frayed around the edges that I can say with some certainty that he’s a fake. By contrast, I know enough about Glen Greenwald to know that he’s an activist and that he’s not above manufacturing a “scandal” to get the results he wants.

Sorry, but what I hear in your post is confirmation bias talking, the “It sounds right, so it must be” mentality that leads people down some very dark roads. If your argument is that it doesn’t matter if the story or storyteller are bogus, just so long as they sound “right,” then you’re being dishonest to yourself. Debates based upon lies are worthless.

45 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:31:03pm

re: #40 William Barnett-Lewis

Read a bit more about PS4. The no restrictions on 2nd hand games is enough in itself; the “won’t phone home” part is an even bigger plus. It’s really going to depend, for me and my family, how Nintendo reply’s but I can easily say I’ll go Sony over MS anytime.

46 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:32:42pm

Hoo boy. Expect the ‘splodey heads to derp tomorrow:

47 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:32:45pm

reductio ad “well of course the government is lying!”

48 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:32:58pm

re: #41 Lidane

They look interesting, but the fact the 360’s got at least another year of support left, if not longer, makes me satisfied with waiting for a while before upgrading. I’ve learned my lesson about buying any new gadget when it first launches.

Yeah, my sister was saying the same thing, wait for a few months at least for the first bugs to crop up and be worked out. And none of the exclusives for either system are so tempting that I have to be there on launch day. Figure I’ll wait til next Christmas, when they stop releasing any new games for the current gen.

49 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:33:28pm

reductio ad “it sounds right, it must be true!”

50 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:34:24pm

re: #45 William Barnett-Lewis

Read a bit more about PS4. The no restrictions on 2nd hand games is enough in itself; the “won’t phone home” part is an even bigger plus. It’s really going to depend, for me and my family, how Nintendo reply’s but I can easily say I’ll go Sony over MS anytime.

Nintendo’s DOA, at least in my opinion. They were so quick to launch to get a leg-up on the competition that they pulled the Sega mistake, overshooting the launch dates of their major titles.

51 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:34:59pm

re: #20 Targetpractice

Oh yeah, I think Sony’s pretty much set to win this console generation. Microsoft hasn’t just shot itself in the foot, it’s blown it off with a bazooka.

It was just a couple of unscripted development nerds on stage.

52 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:36:46pm

re: #51 stabby

It was just a couple of unscripted development nerds on stage.

Not really sure how that makes it any better.

53 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:37:54pm

re: #52 Targetpractice

It means that it doesn’t make sense to punish the whole company for it.

54 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:38:55pm

re: #39 Lidane

So we should accept Snowden’s lies because someone else may be lying about something else?

That Snowden is lying is not something either you or I can be definitive about. Whatever he’s doing it doesn’t look like it’s for the money, or for extra freedom to move around and walk down the street for a taco. He’s basically now a pawn, a bargaining chip, in whatever game the Chinese want to play, don’t you think? His life is gonna be in the dumpster for a long time, maybe forever.

All I’m saying (and nowhere do I say we should accept anything at face value, in fact I say the opposite pretty clearly I thought) is that we don’t know who’s lying. All we can do is speculate about who has the most to gain and the most to lose from doing so.
And I can assure you that my observations about the natural gravitational pull on intel gathering operations toward gathering everything is right on the money.
I myself don’t see how Snowden comes out on the bottom of the heap when looking at it like that, but you perhaps do. And that’s fine if so.

55 Kragar  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:39:45pm

re: #42 funky chicken

Yeah, hahaha. My son is 16 and he knows better than that.

2 girls, one of whom calls herself a gamer. I’d kick a kid’s ass for talking to her like that.

56 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:40:09pm

re: #53 stabby

It means that it doesn’t make sense to punish the whole company for it.

I’m not really sure if anyone’s shared with you the importance of first impressions, but you only get one. And putting a couple of folks onstage who pretty much personified all that is presently wrong with the gaming culture, from “jokes” that are in poor taste (at best) to the idea that girl gamers are inferior, is a good way to pretty much destroy whatever good will you had going into your presentation.

57 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:40:47pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

Nintendo’s DOA, at least in my opinion. They were so quick to launch to get a leg-up on the competition that they pulled the Sega mistake, overshooting the launch dates of their major titles.

Thing is, I’d rather wait for them to do it right - with family friendly games at that - than either Sony or MS will ever do. They both still are fixated on the so called “hard core gamer” segment and that gives Nintendo it’s opportunity. If they fix WII U, I’d buy it before any other console or PC.

58 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:42:43pm

re: #54 gunnison

He’s basically now a pawn, a bargaining chip, in whatever game the Chinese the far left and the far right want to play, don’t you think?

This is me playing the world’s tiniest violin.

I’m not sympathetic to Bradley Manning either.

His life is gonna be in the dumpster for a long time, maybe forever.

He should have thought of that before leaking government secrets.

59 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:43:28pm

re: #43 funky chicken

Um, fail. Fewer movies.

Yes, that’s an intellectually coherent argument.
As it happens, the last movie I saw in a cinema was Ben Hur, and the last one on video was a documentary several years ago called “Marwencol”, which I recommend heartily.
:)

60 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:43:38pm

re: #56 Targetpractice

Anyway, I’ll just disagree that this will have any effect on sales of whatever the next XBox is called.

61 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:44:38pm

re: #57 William Barnett-Lewis

Thing is, I’d rather wait for them to do it right - with family friendly games at that - than either Sony or MS will ever do. They both still are fixated on the so called “hard core gamer” segment and that gives Nintendo it’s opportunity. If they fix WII U, I’d buy it before any other console or PC.

It gives Nintendo a niche, one that it’s playing to the very last few pennies. But most folks I know are asking why, if the Wii is playing virtually the same games for roughly the same quality, why spend money on a whole new system?

62 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:47:17pm

re: #60 stabby

Anyway, I’ll just disagree that this will have any effect on sales of whatever the next XBox is called.

Oh, I’d say Microsoft has already pretty effectively knee-capped their own console before it even launched. This was just another item on the list that will, when the final score is tallied, be looked upon as another example of how they pissed in people’s cereal before they even reached the shelf.

63 dragonath  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:48:50pm

Just saw the new Mac Pro design.

Uh…

64 dragonath  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:50:01pm
65 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:50:04pm

re: #58 Lidane

This is me playing the world’s tiniest violin.

Where the hell do you get the notion that I’m sympathetic to his plight? I was merely talking about who has the most to lose/gain.
The fact that his life is in the crapper is relevant to evaluating what’s what for heaven’s sake. How could it not be?
The fact that Clapper has to keep up certain appearances consistent with his job is relevant too.
And so it goes.

66 funky chicken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:50:17pm

re: #59 gunnison

just being concise. you appear to think it’s likely that NSA lies to the Senate Intellligence Committee. um, no. they don’t.

67 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:52:03pm

re: #66 funky chicken

just being concise. you appear to think it’s likely that NSA lies to the Senate Intellligence Committee. um, no. they don’t.

If one goes into this thinking that the NSA is lying to everybody about what it’s doing, then what exactly is repealing the Patriot Act or adding new restrictions going to do? That seems to be the big deal of this all, if you go into this believing the government is spying on you and lying to your face about doing so, how do you expect to stop them from doing so?

68 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:54:40pm

re: #65 gunnison

Where the hell do you get the notion that I’m sympathetic to his plight? I was merely talking about who has the most to lose/gain.

Yeah. You’re doing that while ignoring the fact that the NSA has nothing to gain by lying to the government. WTF would they lie to the Senate for? That’s stupid.

69 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:56:44pm

re: #66 funky chicken

…you appear to think it’s likely that NSA lies to the Senate Intellligence Committee. um, no. they don’t.

They certainly have lied to the congressional committee when they said they don’t have the ability to know how many phone metadata grabs they do on phone calls within the US.

They do know, and with precision, it turns out, and they said they didn’t have that capability.

So yeah, they could be lying like they did then, and like they have done before. COINTELPRO ring any bells with you at all?
Come on, it’s not like they don’t have form in this area for pete’s sake.

70 stabby  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 10:59:15pm

I don’t agree with all of what’s in these comments but they’re interesting

hurryupharry.org

hurryupharry.org

Note, it takes a VERY LONG TIME to get to a linked discus comment. If you scroll or click on the page before all the comments have loaded you’ll never get to the comment. Anyway both of them are long ones by “mettaculture” and are in the same thread.

71 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:00:56pm

re: #69 gunnison

So how long have you been listening to Alex Jones?

72 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:01:53pm

re: #68 Lidane

You’re doing that while ignoring the fact that the NSA has nothing to gain by lying to the government.

OK, let’s call this good.
I explained that intel gathering routinely crosses legal lines and I explained the mechanism, the natural ‘gravitational’ pull which tends to cause it to happen.

Once those legal lines are crossed the intel agency has every interest in covering it up. Obviously.

You don’t accept any of this. That’s fine. We’re not going to convince each other, so no need to make it into a big long thing.

73 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:02:45pm

re: #69 gunnison

They certainly have lied to the congressional committee when they said they don’t have the ability to know how many phone metadata grabs they do on phone calls within the US.

They do know, and with precision, it turns out, and they said they didn’t have that capability.

So yeah, they could be lying like they did then, and like they have done before. COINTELPRO ring any bells with you at all?
Come on, it’s not like they don’t have form in this area for pete’s sake.

And how does metadata translate into the allegations that Snowden has made, such as being able to access anybody’s communications with so little as an email address? Being able to wiretap the president if he so chose to do so?

74 piratedan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:03:59pm

re: #54 gunnison

well lets take some of this under consideration…..

we’ve had three, count ‘em three “scandals” in a row where people who have an axe to grind with the current administration have swung for the fences, Benghazi, AP, IRS and they’ve gone essentially 0 for 3.

While those are going through their death throes between Republican attempts to repeal the ACA and defund ACORN. This new and improved scandal appears and we’re told that the agency that is tasked with spying on folks when enabled through the Patriot Act is found to be spying on folks. The New and Improved scandal implies that we’re gathering unprecedented data and that the government is putting the strongarm on all of the big data providers and getting data on EVERYBODY and it’s called PRISM and we’re getting this done at a modest cost of 20M or the rough equivalent of Mitt Romney TV ads in August.

So lets ponder these two points….

The biggest data gathering endeavor known to mankind angle was pushed back by the very companies named by the WaPo and Guardian pieces. Specifically addressing the points leveled by GG as being inaccurate and untrue. They then cited the actual process in how it works with government requesting, the organization itself doing the filtering once a subpeona has been received and that’s what the government gets back, that’s it. Then we have the incredible sum of all of 20M allocated to this boondoggle making it the most efficient government program evah.

What I think happened here is the Snowdon stumbles across something that he perceives to be wrong (not illegal, just not in sync with his own personal ethics) and finds and contacts someone in the media who he agrees/sympathsizes with, fellow Randian/Libertarian GG. Like any good Galt’s Gulch wannabe, he shops around for the best deal, looking to see what he can wrangle from WaPo or GG. Starts getting antsy about his downloads on the downlow being found out and rushes headlong into the arms of America’s biggest Cyber rival, The Chinese, courageous soul that he is.

Now I’m not saying that there couldn’t be issues and problems with the NSA (namely farming out NSA-like stuff to outside contractors who may download your intel and flee the country notwithstanding), but the discussion and framing aren’t being presented like that AT ALL. Instead of stating that something is illegal and how the NSA is breaking the law, he’s broken the law by violating the oath of non-disclosure that has been signed and leaving the country like a traitor while the folks with the cameras and the laptops follow behind screaming tyranny and you guys are worse than Hitler.

Who do you want me to believe, the big data folks that categorically deny the specifics of the claim and produce documentation regarding the procedures that are supposed to be used and lo and behold, they match up with what the law says is supposed to happen?

The government itself which hasn’t lied about jack shit on the other three “scandals” but now can’t be taken at their word on this occasion too?

Or the guy who’s been up this administration’s ass ever since he was elected?

75 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:05:42pm

re: #72 gunnison

Explain to me how a low level systems admin has the magical ability to wiretap the POTUS, as Snowden claims he could do. Also, explain to me how the NSA would benefit from lying about his capability to do so.

Remember to show your work.

76 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:14:54pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

And how does metadata translate into the allegations that Snowden has made, such as being able to access anybody’s communications with so little as an email address? Being able to wiretap the president if he so chose to do so?

To my eye it doesn’t.
I think I said pretty clearly right up front in my first comment that there were conflicts and ambiguities in Snowdens remarks as reported in the Guardian.

My remarks seem to have been interpreted as assuming something that I do not assume. All this “it sounds right so it must be” stuff.
Not so.
I do know that intel services tell lies to congress, because that’s a matter of documented history.
I do know that cops tell lies in court all the damn time, because dealing with some of that was once part of my life, so “authorities” are not inherently more truthful than anyone else.
I don’t know anything about Snowden that we can’t all read in the media. I do know he’s not benefiting (that I can tell) from the actions that he’s taken.

And Glenn Beck is a loony. I know it wasn’t you that brought him up - I’m just trying to be efficient.
:)

77 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:21:08pm

re: #76 gunnison

To my eye it doesn’t.
I think I said pretty clearly right up front in my first comment that there were conflicts and ambiguities in Snowdens remarks as reported in the Guardian.

My remarks seem to have been interpreted as assuming something that I do not assume. All this “it sounds right so it must be” stuff.
Not so.
I do know that intel services tell lies to congress, because that’s a matter of documented history.
I do know that cops tell lies in court all the damn time, because dealing with some of that was once part of my life, so “authorities” are not inherently more truthful than anyone else.
I don’t know anything about Snowden that we can’t all read in the media. I do know he’s not benefiting (that I can tell) from the actions that he’s taken.

And Glenn Beck is a loony. I know it wasn’t you that brought him up - I’m just trying to be efficient.
:)

Yeah, I notice that the general theme amongst those swallowing the bilge that is this “scandal” is an undercurrent of distrust in authorities. That the government lies, the government always lies, so believing the worst about them is just good sense. But like I asked above, if one’s approach is that the government is lying to us, then how do you enforce honest on the government? Are you going to suggest we dismantle our intelligence services, because they can’t be trusted not to take liberties with our right to privacy in order to do their jobs?

78 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:23:58pm

re: #75 Lidane

Explain to me how a low level systems admin has the magical ability to wiretap the POTUS, as Snowden claims he could do. Also, explain to me how the NSA would benefit from lying about his capability to do so. …. Remember to show your work.

heh heh
cute
I don’t think he could have tapped potus. It’s possible he thought he could, but I suspect he would have run into some digital razor-wire he didn’t know existed. I sure hope so.

Why don’t you explain to me, if a low level GED student working for a contractor, did manage to have anything like the kind of access he claims he did, how the NSA would benefit from telling the truth about it?
Good grief man, if what he says is even halfway accurate with regard to his access you can bet they’ll lie about it. To do otherwise is to admit they’re granting clearance to the inept and the unstable for heaven’s sake.

79 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:26:04pm

What part of IT IS KNOWN don’t you folks get?

/

80 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:28:22pm

re: #78 gunnison

The NSA didn’t hire him. You know that, right?

81 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:30:29pm

re: #78 gunnison

heh heh
cute
I don’t think he could have tapped potus. It’s possible he thought he could, but I suspect he would have run into some digital razor-wire he didn’t know existed. I sure hope so.

Why don’t you explain to me, if a low level GED student working for a contractor, did manage to have anything like the kind of access he claims he did, how the NSA would benefit from telling the truth about it?
Good grief man, if what he says is even halfway accurate with regard to his access you can bet they’ll lie about it. To do otherwise is to admit they’re granting clearance to the inept and the unstable for heaven’s sake.

The NSA benefits from being upfront that Booz Allen fucked up by hiring a guy who went into the job under false pretenses. If anything, they benefit from arguing that contracting out national security provides failure points like Snowden that compromise our ability to keep secrets. That the best thing that can be done is to bring it all in-house and out of the hands of contractors whose loyalty to the government extends as far as their next paycheck.

82 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:32:00pm

re: #77 Targetpractice

Yeah, I notice that the general theme amongst those swallowing the bilge that is this “scandal” is an undercurrent of distrust in authorities. That the government lies, the government always lies, so believing the worst about them is just good sense. But like I asked above, if one’s approach is that the government is lying to us, then how do you enforce honest on the government? Are you going to suggest we dismantle our intelligence services, because they can’t be trusted not to take liberties with our right to privacy in order to do their jobs?

This is what I want to know.

What is the answer? If the NSA is so horrible that they’re lying to the government and to everyone else about everything and if the government is so horrible because they’re lying to the NSA and to everyone else about everything, then how does that get fixed?

I’m not a fan of the Patriot Act. It should never have passed, but this nation rolled over and accepted bad law when they were in a panic after 9/11. Now everyone is flipping their shit because of concerns over government spying? Bitch plz.

83 Lidane  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:33:12pm

re: #81 Targetpractice

The NSA benefits from being upfront that Booz Allen fucked up by hiring a guy who went into the job under false pretenses. If anything, they benefit from arguing that contracting out national security provides failure points like Snowden that compromise our ability to keep secrets. That the best thing that can be done is to bring it all in-house and out of the hands of contractors whose loyalty to the government extends as far as their next paycheck.

EXACTLY.

84 piratedan  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:37:36pm

re: #78 gunnison

and you know what, I don’t have a problem with shining the light on people getting clearances above and beyond their pay grade and contractors and government agencies that don’t do a good job on vetting their employees. The thing is, we all know someone/somebody who is a natural at the office politics game who rises to a position above their competency.

Let me give you a semi plausable scenario….

young man joins up with the Military, signs up to try and fast track his way into the special forces unit because he’s gung ho, or a patriot or earnestly feels like SF is the place for him or all the hot chicks dig the SF guys because they’re badasses.

He crashes out of the program due to injury, his dream never realized and kicks around as a security guard. Does a good job. gets noticed by someone who appreciates his talents, after all, he’s helping out as a civ security guy at an NSA shop. Maybe he makes a save or helps solve a problem, so someone makes a couple of phone calls. His dad is ex Coast Guard, okay, sounds good. Caught a tough break in basic, alright, sounds like a kid who could use a break. A door opens for him. Thusly a career is born.

Once in, it’s hard to screw up bad enough to be asked to leave.

85 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:39:35pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

And how does metadata translate into the allegations that Snowden has made, such as being able to access anybody’s communications with so little as an email address? Being able to wiretap the president if he so chose to do so?

Snowden is talking about the existence of technical abilities. He could be lying or he could be right. The Administration, NSA, Clapper and members of Congress are making assurances about how the procedures supposedly work, individual FISA court approval for each gathering program and separate FISA court approval to go through the database searching for records associated with a particular citizen or resident inside the US.

Here’s the thing, none of this is mutually exclusive.

The challengers, DOJ said, are not directly asking the court to release a copy of the October 2011 surveillance ruling, the details of which remain unknown. U.S. Senator Ron Wyden (D-Oregon), who has seen the ruling, said the court found the government’s surveillance “circumvented the spirit of the law.” The opinion is 86 pages.

That could mean anything from deliberate attempts to work around the law to the probably much more likely unintentional failure of certain technical safeguards. What seems kind of undeniable at this point is that the NSA is such a large, technically hamstrung bureaucracy that it somehow couldn’t detect or prevent Snowden’s illicit data mining, copying and smuggling in time. So the potential probably existed for things to have gone in the other direction, for some stereotypical “overzealous staffers” to have bent the rules and bypassed safeguards in pursuit of gathering as much data as they felt they needed.

If, if, Snowden was able, because of his position, to roam the system and exploit technical loopholes to see intel miles above his clearance level then it’s not such an assumption at all to believe he and others had the potential ability to use such hacks to tap lines and gather data on citizens without the FISA court acting as a strict interlock.

I’m still certain that much of what he boasted he had the capability to do was beyond hyperbolic. He might have actually thought he could have tapped the President, but the fact that he apparently never tried speaks volumes. In the end he didn’t want to get caught, so he didn’t test these pet theories against the kinds of digital security that actually surrounds the White House and Capitol.

86 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:40:46pm

re: #77 Targetpractice

But like I asked above, if one’s approach is that the government is lying to us, then how do you enforce honest on the government? Are you going to suggest we dismantle our intelligence services, because they can’t be trusted not to take liberties with our right to privacy in order to do their jobs?

We do know that the government lies to us. It’s too well documented to be debatable outside of asylums.
So does the UK government lie to the Brits. And so on.
Some lie more that others, obviously, as can be demonstrated by trying to look up Tianamen Square on a Chinese ISP.
But the principle is nothing new and has ever been thus.

Am I suggesting dismantling the intel services. No. In this loony world we need them. I don’t see that as debatable either.

But I don’t think we have to sit around a just suck it up when (not if, when, for the reasons of “gravity” I talked about upthread) those services overstep their legal traces.
The question of how you force honest on the government is a problem that’s bedeviled the world since forever, and was the major concern of the Founding Fathers.
Their best shot was the Constitution and it’s almost immediate amendments in the Bill of Rights. They also, many of them, spoke at length about sacrificing freedom in the name of security. They worried about it because they were politicians and men of the world and so they too knew what a lying bunch of snakes various government functionaries can be when it’s in their interests to do so.
So I’m kinda partial to that approach. I’m not a mindless literalist, or original intent, but I’m happy with the idea that I, and you, should be secure in our effects and in our privacy unless a warrant is obtained via probable cause from a judge who is beholden to nobody but blind justice herself.

I don’t think that’s where we are right now, do you?

87 gunnison  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:48:15pm

re: #81 Targetpractice

If anything, they benefit from arguing that contracting out national security provides failure points like Snowden that compromise our ability to keep secrets. That the best thing that can be done is to bring it all in-house and out of the hands of contractors whose loyalty to the government extends as far as their next paycheck.

See now that’s a good point.
But contracting this stuff out is one of the time-honored ways the government cooks the books.

Whenever you get a big move to “shrink government” that’s what happens. The government payrolls shrink, and the private contracts grow. And abracadabra, the ‘government’ shrinks, and the private sector grows. Everyone’s happy.

Of course it’s still our tax money, and even more of it. This guy Snowden was pulling down 200k a year according to accounts I’ve read. If he’d been an NSA employee directly it would have been closer to half that.

You didn’t think they actually make any government programs smaller, did you?
:)

88 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:50:52pm

re: #86 gunnison

We do know that the government lies to us. It’s too well documented to be debatable outside of asylums.
So does the UK government lie to the Brits. And so on.
Some lie more that others, obviously, as can be demonstrated by trying to look up Tianamen Square on a Chinese ISP.
But the principle is nothing new and has ever been thus.

Am I suggesting dismantling the intel services. No. In this loony world we need them. I don’t see that as debatable either.

But I don’t think we have to sit around a just suck it up when (not if, when, for the reasons of “gravity” I talked about upthread) those services overstep their legal traces.
The question of how you force honest on the government is a problem that’s bedeviled the world since forever, and was the major concern of the Founding Fathers.
Their best shot was the Constitution and it’s almost immediate amendments in the Bill of Rights. They also, many of them, spoke at length about sacrificing freedom in the name of security. They worried about it because they were politicians and men of the world and so they too knew what a lying bunch of snakes various government functionaries can be when it’s in their interests to do so.
So I’m kinda partial to that approach. I’m not a mindless literalist, or original intent, but I’m happy with the idea that I, and you, should be secure in our effects and in our privacy unless a warrant is obtained via probable cause from a judge who is beholden to nobody but blind justice herself.

I don’t think that’s where we are right now, do you?

Personally, I believe you an idealist, one who thinks there must be some way to have your cake and eat it too. That if we just put the right safeguards in place, the government can’t violate them in the course of their work. But Frank’s right, there’s those who are going to find ways to game the system, that’s also something that has existed as long as government’s have. For every layer of protection we put in place, there will be ways around it, whether it be finding a sympathetic judge, fudging the paperwork, or just “forgetting” to mention something until the intrusion has already happened. The only real safety you have is in putting place ways to punish those that do fuck with the rules. It’s beyond gullible to believe that, if you just make the next law more “secure,” they won’t get around it.

89 freetoken  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:51:16pm

These kind of things just shouldn’t happen:

Boy, 5, survives Oklahoma tornado only to be killed by dog in Arkansas

A 5-year-old boy who survived a recent killer tornado in Oklahoma was killed this weekend when he was attacked by a dog in Arkansas, authorities say.

The boy, whose name had not been released, and his younger sister were staying with family friends in Jessieville, Ark., while their parents worked to rebuild their Moore, Okla., home that had been destroyed by a twister last month, The Norman (Okla.) Transcript reported Monday.

A Garland County sheriff’s deputy report stated family friend Lynn Geiling, 50, said she was trying to calm the boy, who was throwing a tantrum over putting on a pair of shoes, when the family’s bullmastiff came out of another room and attacked him, the newspaper and KTHV-TV, Little Rock, Ark., reported.

[…]

90 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 10, 2013 11:54:37pm

re: #87 gunnison

See now that’s a good point.
But contracting this stuff out is one of the time-honored ways the government cooks the books.

Whenever you get a big move to “shrink government” that’s what happens. The government payrolls shrink, and the private contracts grow. And abracadabra, the ‘government’ shrinks, and the private sector grows. Everyone’s happy.

Of course it’s still our tax money, and even more of it. This guy Snowden was pulling down 200k a year according to accounts I’ve read. If he’d been an NSA employee directly it would have been closer to half that.

You didn’t think they actually make any government programs smaller, did you?
:)

And how likely do you think that those intrusions of our privacy come from contractors who, given that level of power, decide that they can abuse it for anything from personal gain to just getting their jollies?

91 gunnison  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 12:19:27am

re: #88 Targetpractice

Personally, I believe you an idealist, one who thinks there must be some way to have your cake and eat it too. That if we just put the right safeguards in place, the government can’t violate them in the course of their work. But Frank’s right, there’s those who are going to find ways to game the system, that’s also something that has existed as long as government’s have. For every layer of protection we put in place, there will be ways around it, whether it be finding a sympathetic judge, fudging the paperwork, or just “forgetting” to mention something until the intrusion has already happened. The only real safety you have is in putting place ways to punish those that do fuck with the rules. It’s beyond gullible to believe that, if you just make the next law more “secure,” they won’t get around it.

OK, but at least now we’re talking as one person to another on level ground. Which is where we both belong, right?

Maybe I’m an idealist in the same sense that the guys who cobbled the Constitution together were idealists. I honestly don’t think they thought they’d nailed it once and for all - they were educated and smart men of the world and there’s no doubt at all that they would agree with your remarks about gaming the system. Some of them were gamers themselves, in some ways, for that matter.

My concern with all this stuff is not to try and put together the perfect system. Like you I think that’s a fool’s errand and I’m sure not an idealist in that sense at all.
I also happen to think the the horror of 9-11 has been used by various people, and this is not a politically partisan statement - this is way beyond democrat vs republican, to eviscerate the law. Particularly the Bill of Rights.
This very site here, LGF, which I have read for a good while now, and like a lot, often takes a swipe at some of the hateful nuts who help facilitate that crap.

I’m not for sacrificing items like habeas corpus, probable cause, invasions of privacy without probable cause and all the rest of it on the altar of some “security” against what amounts to a relatively small number of religious lunatics.
And I think that’s what’s been happening, and continues to happen.

If that makes me an idealist, I can live with that. I don’t think any of those long dead white men who did their best with this problem by producing the constitution would give up those rights for such a phoney cause either, but of course I can never know that for sure. They sure wrote about the dangers of doing it enough to convince me, though.

Gotta go.
take care

92 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 1:57:28am

re: #36 gunnison

But look. The only way that intel gathering can work is if they scoop up everything they can, then massage the data to find what they’re looking for.

This isn’t true. Why do you believe it?

93 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 1:59:09am

re: #92 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

This isn’t true. Why do you believe it?

It isn’t the only way they can work, but it is now a possibility: there was a time when too much data just muddied the waters, now they have ways of filtering it.

And yes, we are all “persons of interest” in the War on Terror.

94 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:07:46am

re: #93 Sol Berdinowitz

It isn’t the only way they can work, but it is now a possibility: there was a time when too much data just muddied the waters, now they have ways of filtering it.

And yes, we are all “persons of interest” in the War on Terror.

Well, I was mostly objecting to the ‘the only way’ thingy. Gathering and filtering all the data is a possible way to go about doing stuff, but it’d require a shitload of money and processing power.

Gmail has almost a billion users, and I don’t think that counts the eternally-evolving spambots. That is not only a huge ocean of data, it’s a huge ocean that changes and is added to daily. And that’s just gmail.

I think the NSA does a lot of unacceptable shit. I think the PATRIOT act blows. I think that secret courts should at least have a sunset on the secrecy. But I am really confused why everyone is freaking out about this now since this kind of stuff is what the PATRIOT act explicitly authorized.

95 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:18:54am

re: #94 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But I am really confused why everyone is freaking out about this now since this kind of stuff is what the PATRIOT act explicitly authorized.

The answer is clear, and has been presented here in a number of posts: on the Wingnut side, the problem is that the Patriot Act was passed and the War on Terror was initiated by a God-fearing white president, now they are being enforced and continued by a Black pseudomuslim.

Obama also disappointed a lot of Moonbats by appearing to reject the excesses of the Patriot Act and the War on Terror, but it turns out that he has continued to enforce and even expand on them.

96 freetoken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:28:40am

re: #94 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But I am really confused why everyone is freaking out about this now since this kind of stuff is what the PATRIOT act explicitly authorized.

It’s in season, sort of like the loquats are no longer. It’s a well designed marketing scheme to get eyes on newspapers sites.

97 freetoken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:31:40am

What is termed “ratings erosion” is happening broadly for all producers of content - news, entertainment, etc. Blogs too. Newspapers either have transitioned by now to an electronic site or are gone, but even the electronic versions are tough products.

Just too many options, finely tuned to each consumer.

98 freetoken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:39:41am
99 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:39:50am

re: #96 freetoken

It’s in season, sort of like the loquats are no longer. It’s a well designed marketing scheme to get eyes on newspapers sites.

Er, are you saying that Snowden did this in order to increase traffic to various websites?

100 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:40:43am

re: #95 Sol Berdinowitz

He’s expanded some, apparently, he’s rolled back others, apparently.

101 freetoken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:41:22am

re: #99 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Snowden isn’t the maker of the story. GG and The Guardian made the story.

102 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 2:41:58am

re: #100 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

He’s expanded some, apparently, he’s rolled back others, apparently.

Well, the Moonbats are upset because they feel betrayed, the Wingnuts are upset because he’s Obama.

103 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:10:54am

re: #102 Sol Berdinowitz

Wingnut or moonbat? I am conflicted. Is there a middle ground?

104 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:22:33am

re: #101 freetoken

Snowden isn’t the maker of the story. GG and The Guardian made the story.

You seriously think that if he’d leaked this to some other news outlet, there wouldn’t have been a story?

105 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:25:24am

re: #103 EdDantes

Wingnut or moonbat? I am conflicted. Is there a middle ground?

Everyone to the left of me is a Moonbat, everyone to the right of me a Wingnut.

106 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:26:56am

re: #103 EdDantes

Wingnut or moonbat? I am conflicted. Is there a middle ground?

Yeah, but you’re not really conflicted— with your weird anti-evolution stance, you’re firmly in the wingnut area.

107 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:38:38am

re: #106 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

If someone who doesn’t believe in evolution is a wingnut then I confess that that is what I am. Evolution is not the topic here but I wish someone at this site had the wit to set me straight on that subject.

108 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:41:57am

re: #107 EdDantes

If someone who doesn’t believe in evolution is a wingnut then I confess that that is what I am. Evolution is not the topic here but I wish someone at this site had the wit to set me straight on that subject.

One can, at least theoretically, not accept the overwhelming evidence in support of the Theory of Evolution and not be a Wingnut.

A Wingnut is someone who rejects the overwhelming evidence in favor of an ill-founded pseudotheory based on religious texts, one whose chief premise (the existence and intervention of a divine Creator) lie outside the bounds of science.

109 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:42:53am

HOw is it so far?

110 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:45:42am

re: #89 freetoken

These kind of things just shouldn’t happen:

Boy, 5, survives Oklahoma tornado only to be killed by dog in Arkansas

She called her husband, NOT 911?

111 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:46:40am

re: #89 freetoken

These kind of things just shouldn’t happen:

Boy, 5, survives Oklahoma tornado only to be killed by dog in Arkansas

Where’s Wolf Blitzer when you need him to ask if somebody should not be thanking some deity?

112 freetoken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:48:07am

re: #104 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You seriously think that if he’d leaked this to some other news outlet, there wouldn’t have been a story?

I did not claim that.

Someone the other day called Snowden a “MacGuffin” and while I don’t believe that is a particularly good match as far as vocabulary is concerned it does put Snowden in the proper perspective.

The Story is not about yet another malcontent getting their hands on yet another classified document while working in a supposedly secure facility.

The Story is what is being told by GG and The Guardian. The market existed for the idea (once again, like fashion these things come and go) of government over-reach, spying on citizens, power hungry Presidents, etc. The reaction of the desperate-to-prove-their-Liberal-cred bloggers demonstrates how well the pump had been primed.

You asked below why all this is news, given the Patriot Act is not new and allows for all sorts of stuff.

This is why - it’s simply a seasonal story for an industry that depends upon sensationalism. And there is a fragment of our society that loves and obsesses over victimhood by mysterious and evil Government forces.

Most topics get played out, in entertainment, and need to rest (like I suggested for Dr. Who) before they can become fresh again to the consumer. Well, screaming over the Patriot Act had rested for a couple of seasons and was just brought back, this time by GG and The Guardian. It could have been any egomaniacal “journalist” and media outlet, but this time it happened to be those.

113 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:49:46am

re: #108 Sol Berdinowitz

I am an agnostic.

114 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:53:29am

re: #113 EdDantes

I am an agnostic.

I can understand how you might see Evoltuion as a flawed theory filled with gaps and contradictions. I cannot understand replacing it with a pseudotheory based on a fantasy story from an ancient book.

The problem with Creationism is that it lies outside science and has no business being taught in a science classroom outside a brief mention of the fact that other people have other ideas about our origins that are based on belief and conjecture.

115 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:54:54am

re: #107 EdDantes

If someone who doesn’t believe in evolution is a wingnut then I confess that that is what I am. Evolution is not the topic here but I wish someone at this site had the wit to set me straight on that subject.

Why on earth do you think the problem is with other people not having the wit to explain it to you?

116 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:56:50am

re: #113 EdDantes

Let’s start with something simple. Do you deny that bacteria can be seen to evolve resistance in a laboratory setting?

117 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:58:56am

re: #114 Sol Berdinowitz

I’m not a creationist and I do not look to the bible as a source of scientific insight.

118 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:00:27am

re: #117 EdDantes

The funny thing is that all your half-baked anti-evolution arguments exactly the same as used by creationists.

Weird coincidence, eh?

119 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:04:08am

re: #116 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Let’s start with something simple. Do you deny that bacteria can be seen to evolve resistance in a laboratory setting?

Resistance to what?

120 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:07:02am

re: #118 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The funny thing is that all your half-baked anti-evolution arguments exactly the same as used by creationists.

Weird coincidence, eh?

My arguments are fully baked. Which ones are you referring to?

121 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:13:05am

re: #119 EdDantes

Resistance to what?

To whatever the fuck you put in there. Doesn’t matter. Call it ‘drug’. You have a bunch of bacteria, you have something that kills most, but not all of them. After a few generations, they’ll have evolved resistance to that drug.

Do you deny this happens?

122 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:14:04am

re: #120 EdDantes

My arguments are fully baked. Which ones are you referring to?

Oh, for example, denying that transitional fossils are transitional.

You also have never, ever, despite me asking many times, explained what alternate theories to evolution there are to explain adaptation and diversity. Care to actually unleash those now?

123 steve_davis  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:23:11am

re: #30 Targetpractice

As it stands, the only XBox exclusive I’m interested in is Dead Rising 3. I can do without another Halo or Metal Gear, and the rest of its exclusive lineup looks forgettable. Unless it’s hiding Fallout 4 up its sleeve, I can get along fine with a PS4. At least I won’t have a Kinect camera watching me all the time that way.

somebody please remind me when the new Rome Total War drops, in I think the middle of July. I’ve been waiting two freakin years for that.

124 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:23:12am

re: #121 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, I suppose that bacteria who are resistant to “drug” persist and produce offspring who are equally resistant to “drug.” If there were no bacteria who were resistant at the time “drug” was initially introduced would all die and leave no future generations.

125 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:29:22am

re: #124 EdDantes

Well, I suppose that bacteria who are resistant to “drug” persist and produce offspring who are equally resistant to “drug.”

And therefore, over time, one particular allele is selected for and is then expressed across the population.

Which is evolution.

If there were no bacteria who were resistant at the time “drug” was initially introduced would all die and leave no future generations.

But given the rate of mutation in bacteria, for any given drug that’s wildly improbable with any significant population of bacteria. Or are you denying that mutation occurs?

Because as it stands, you’ve just stated you accept evolution.

126 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:30:15am

EdDantes is posting on the wrong thread.

The evolution thread is here.

127 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:32:00am

re: #122 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Oh, for example, denying that transitional fossils are transitional.

You also have never, ever, despite me asking many times, explained what alternate theories to evolution there are to explain adaptation and diversity. Care to actually unleash those now?

I have no original alternate theory of “adaptation and diversity.” Organisms, from the fossil record, seem to appear without predecessors and then go extinct although some persist, unchanged, for tens of millions of years.

128 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:34:06am

re: #127 EdDantes

I have no original alternate theory of “adaptation and diversity.” Organisms, from the fossil record, seem to appear without predecessors

No, they don’t. Only if you purposefully ignore the fossil record, is this true.

For example, the evolution of the horse is very well-supported by the fossil record.

Image: cej16_05.jpg

So your premise is false.

129 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:37:26am

re: #125 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

In short, pre existing traits that enhance the ability of an organism to survive
are passed on: That is natural selection not evolution. No new species has evolved.

130 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:39:55am

re: #126 Vicious Babushka

No, I was posting on the Snowden thread: Absalom made this an evolution thread.

131 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:40:05am

re: #129 EdDantes

In short, pre existing traits that enhance the ability of an organism to survive
are passed on: That is natural selection not evolution. No new species has evolved.

So you’re denying the existence of mutations in the genome?

This is also something that’s demonstrable. You take a bunch of bacteria, bathe them in radiation, and you can, afterwards, find mutations that are de novo, that did not exist at all in the previous population. Or, if you have time, you just wait, and the bacteria will likewise produce original mutations.

Again, the position of “okay, I accept ‘microevolution’ but I’m denying speciation” is an argument used by creastionists. At no point have your anti-evolution views departed from those used by the ID proponents.

132 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:41:27am

re: #127 EdDantes

I have no original alternate theory of “adaptation and diversity.”

Also, to go back to this: you have claimed, many times, that there are alternate theories to evolution that are scientifically valid. Are you now saying that you were wrong in claiming that?

133 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:43:48am

Early morning DERP

134 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:51:45am

re: #131 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Everyone, even creationists admit mutations exist. And after bacteria or fruit flies are bathed in radiation what new, viable species have they evolved into?

135 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:53:48am

The lgf banner ad is trying to get my attention:
Danger (2 criminals live by you) See Who

Now I find myself wondering if my neighbors get similar targeted advertising. I can see how this kind of crap could get ugly fast.

re: #107 EdDantes

If someone who doesn’t believe in evolution is a wingnut then I confess that that is what I am. Evolution is not the topic here but I wish someone at this site had the wit to set me straight on that subject.

My HS term paper was on evolution, a few decades ago. It was basically a critical review of Darwin’s book, On the Origin of Species, published in 1859. It’s a fairly easy read, if you can approach it with a somewhat open mind.

If you’re inclined to approach the subject in a more passive way, the BBC series The Voyage of Charles Darwin is quite good, altho rather long —several hours. It’s also the only dramatization of Robert Fitzroy that I’m aware of. Bet you’ve never heard of Fitzroy. First few minutes here:
Youtube Video

136 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:57:18am

re: #133 Vicious Babushka

Early morning DERP

Glenn Greenwald: America Under Siege! //

137 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:58:34am

re: #136 Gus

Glenn Greenwald: America Under Siege! //

The Greenwald/Fischer convergence

138 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:59:02am

re: #134 EdDantes

Everyone, even creationists admit mutations exist. And after bacteria or fruit flies are bathed in radiation what new, viable species have they evolved into?

This is an incoherent question. Whatever mutation they’ve picked up, if it’s not selected against, would define their new ‘species’. If you’re looking for such an actual speciation event, it was observed here.

Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. “An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila”, Nature 23:289-292.

These species were created without any forcing of mutation, just by letting them breed for several generations.

So you accept evolution, in that you accept selection for positive mutations, and you accept that mutations occur de novo. I’ve just shown you an actual speciation event. What do you have left in your denier’s arsenal?

139 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:59:02am

I wonder if Bryan Fischer knows that Glenn Greenwald is gay?

140 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:59:09am

re: #132 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Also, to go back to this: you have claimed, many times, that there are alternate theories to evolution that are scientifically valid. Are you now saying that you were wrong in claiming that?

First, I don’t think that darwinian evolution is scientifically valid. Secondly, I know of no other theories that are scientifically valid. If I gave the impression that I did I was wrong.

141 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:02:02am
142 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:02:13am

…takes deep breath and plunges in….swims around the evolution talk…back to the whole “Snowald” nonsense….

1)Greenwald said he’s been talking to Snowden since before Snowden began working at BAH. This is a detail that’s puzzling, at the very least. What dirt did Snowden have before his supposed access via BAH to all the huge amount of info he claims he had? Where did that information come from and how did Snowden get it? In order to attract an opportunist like Greenwald he’d have to have had something to lure Mr Smarter Than Anyone Journalist Guy to spend his time and energy on this, right? WTF is going on there? How long have these two actually known each other?

2)Is it possible that Snowden hasn’t leaked anything that wasn’t already public info or common knowledge in the first place?

3)The initial profile of Snowden talked about stuffing pillows under doors and throwing a hood over himself and his laptop to stop any sort of cameras or eavesdropping in his hotel room. This is some sort of security genius? It sounds more like paranoia mixed with grandiose thinking. If he has this much knowledge, he’d have to know that the hotel wi-fi isn’t 100 percent secure, let alone what sites he was accessing online. Unless he has a super laptop with multi layers of encryption and the like, which is possible, but then why the little kid “you can’t see me because I can’t see you” stuff?

I’m having a hard time believing Snowden has any sort of valuable intel to sell to anyone. Something is really off. If I had to guess, Snowden is having personal issues of some kind and Greenwald latched onto this because he hates our government in general and this president in particular. YMMV, and I may be wrong, but this whole thing reeks to high heaven from top to bottom.

143 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:05:57am

re: #138 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Drosophila have been tormented by years by researchers. They have been bombarded by radiation to the point of blindness, growing extra wings which are useless, sterility and they still remain flies.

144 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:08:49am

re: #143 EdDantes

Drosophila have been tormented by years by researchers. They have been bombarded by radiation to the point of blindness, growing extra wings which are useless, sterility and they still remain flies.

So what, you expect them to suddenly change into a whole new species? Or do you expect them to Hulk out and destroy Harlem? WTF.

You DO know that’s not how it all works, right?

145 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:19:07am

re: #144 Lidane

So what, you expect them to suddenly change into a whole new species? Or do you expect them to Hulk out and destroy Harlem? WTF.

You DO know that’s not how it all works, right?

Absalom says they do change into a new species. I have no idea what you mean about Harlem.
And yes, I know how it is supposed to work.

146 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:20:09am

re: #140 EdDantes

First, I don’t think that darwinian evolution is scientifically valid. Secondly, I know of no other theories that are scientifically valid. If I gave the impression that I did I was wrong.

Oh, you did more than give the impression, you claimed it.

re: #143 EdDantes

Drosophila have been tormented by years by researchers. They have been bombarded by radiation to the point of blindness, growing extra wings which are useless, sterility and they still remain flies.

Yes, but ‘fly’ isn’t a species, is it? What I showed you is actual observed speciation. That’s what you asked for.

You have also not acknowledged that the fossil record of the horse shows a progression of traits and features over time.

Can you acknowledge this, please, or is honesty not among the qualities you esteem?

147 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:20:59am

re: #144 Lidane

So what, you expect them to suddenly change into a whole new species?

What I cited is an actual example of speciation. They did change into a whole new species, not suddenly, but over time, as an agglutination of mutations caused reproductive incompatibility.

148 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:21:20am
149 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:21:38am

re: #145 EdDantes

And yes, I know how it is supposed to work.

If you knew how it worked, you’d realize that being anti-evolution is a position of ignorance.

150 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:22:45am

I did not start an evolution thread. I was commenting on the Snowden topic. It is late here on the west coast and I am backing out now. If Charles would like to do another evolution thread I would be happy to participate.
Night all.

151 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:24:14am

re: #148 Gus

What was the leak exactly? The Verizon stuff? I thought this wasn’t new info. As I said yesterday, this is all starting to blend together in my head so pardon my ignorance or repetition.

152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:24:21am

re: #150 EdDantes

Everything you’ve claimed I’ve proved wrong, and you don’t actually have the honesty to face or acknowledge it.

Sad, man. Sad.

153 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:24:59am

re: #151 A Mom Anon

The entire powerpoint deck was classified as secret, so leaking it, alone, was criminal.

154 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:27:04am

Hang on. Anyone have a bullshit meter handy?


That’s Instapundit.

155 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:30:01am

Seriously.

156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:31:15am

In a way, what Ed did is a perfect example of creationist argument. He asked for an example of speciation, I gave him one, and he objected that they are ‘still flies’. So he’s actually asking for a change not just in species, but in genus. An observed one.

Constant goalpost shifting.

157 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:32:00am

*sigh*

158 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:36:26am

re: #153 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

OK. So he got this while working for BAH? The thing that I keep coming back to is Greenwald’s admission he was in talks with Snowden before he began working at BAH. Without more details, that makes it look like there was a plan in place before Snowden even got that job. BAH said he’d been there less than three months, which puts him at the job maybe mid March or a little later. Greenwald is saying he was talking to Snowden in Feb. Did he have the powerpoint stuff before his job at BAH?

159 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:36:49am

DERP

160 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:37:20am

Weirdo levels approaching 11ty.

161 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:37:45am

re: #154 Gus

Oh goody, we can all sleep now that Instadumbass has weighed in. I’d roll my eyes, but I’m afraid they’d get stuck.

162 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:38:17am

re: #157 Lidane

That’s because He’s been hanging out with me for the last few months. We’ve been hitting the pubs, the nudie bars, bowling alleys, and generally living it up.

Oh and Matt…..He just asked me to add that you STFU. He thinks you’re a dolt.

163 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:38:47am

re: #68 Lidane

Yeah. You’re doing that while ignoring the fact that the NSA has nothing to gain by lying to the government. WTF would they lie to the Senate for? That’s stupid.

LTC North, meet Rear Admiral Poindexter.

164 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:38:52am

re: #157 Lidane

Yes Matt, we’re now officially under Satan’s control…mwhahahaha!

What a dramatic weasel.

165 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:39:12am

All these dumbasses on Twitter who call themselves TEH MOAST PATRIOTIC PATRIOTS WHO EVER SHOT A GUN!!11!! want to be BFFs with an actual TRAITOR.

166 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:39:36am

re: #152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Everything you’ve claimed I’ve proved wrong, and you don’t actually have the honesty to face or acknowledge it.

Sad, man. Sad.

Wait. I have tried to back out of this gracefully and you persist. You have proved me wrong on nothing. What is sad is you claiming victory when you have nothing to offer. I have been honest while you are recycling old, discredited research. You attack me personally when I have said nothing disparaging about you or your motivations.

167 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:40:54am

re: #161 A Mom Anon

Oh goody, we can all sleep now that Instadumbass has weighed in. I’d roll my eyes, but I’m afraid they’d get stuck.

Amazing isn’t it? Here’s the deal. Any former member of the 101st Fighting Keyboards can’t say jack shit about the NSA/Patriot Act/FISA. Zero! Zilch!

168 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:42:28am

re: #165 Vicious Babushka

All these dumbasses on Twitter who call themselves TEH MOAST PATRIOTIC PATRIOTS WHO EVER SHOT A GUN!!11!! want to be BFFs with an actual TRAITOR.

BUT THERE’S A NI-CLANG IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND HE’S PRESIDENT!!1!

169 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:44:06am

re: #167 Gus

Amazing isn’t it? Here’s the deal. Any former member of the 101st Fighting Keyboards can’t say jack shit about the NSA/Patriot Act/FISA. Zero! Zilch!

They could say something I suppose. But that would have to include a complete renunciation of their previous stance on all of this.

170 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:44:18am
171 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:46:39am

re: #167 Gus

Amazing isn’t it? Here’s the deal. Any former member of the 101st Fighting Keyboards can’t say jack shit about the NSA/Patriot Act/FISA. Zero! Zilch!

2001:

“Only terrorists and Al Qaeda supporters care about privacy! Teh gubmint should spy on everyone to prevent another 9/11!”

2013:

“TEH KENYAN SOSHULIST’S GUBMINT SPIES ON PEOPLE! OMG PRIVACY!”

172 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:48:09am

re: #167 Gus

Yep. I used to have a political blog back in the day. I quit because I was being fairly accurately stalked online. Guy sent me a satellite photo of my son’s school. I guess he followed me obsessively and figured out somehow where my kid went to school, to this day I have no idea how since I never so much as mentioned our names online, let alone a location specific enough to give him a clue where we lived. He was a self proclaimed Patriarchal Christian and Men’s Rights Advocate who was divorced(can’t imagine why) and hated women. A real charmer.

Anyhow, any time I talked about the expansion and creation of new security stuff, especially the PATRIOT Act, NSA, etc. I would get swarmed with hate mail and nasty comments. I was a traitor, hated America, you know the drill. So yeah, Instadumbass can shut his piehole. A lot of those hate mails came from people who read his blog, Pammy’s, Red State, Free Republic, etc. So Glenn can STFU any day now.

173 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:50:00am

I am amused at the wingnut meltdowns on Twitter over the Obama administration dropping the fight over age restrictions for the morning after pill.

Did you know that society is going to collapse and that we’re in for a new age of pedophilia and sexual trafficking now that Plan B is going to be over the counter? Yeah, me neither.

174 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:53:02am

re: #173 Lidane

Let me guess, is this mostly men melting down? Well mostly men and “concerned” mothers?

Can the pharmacies object to and not sell it? I expect that will be the next go round on this, at least in some parts of the country.

175 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:54:41am

re: #173 Lidane

I am amused at the wingnut meltdowns on Twitter over the Obama administration dropping the fight over age restrictions for the morning after pill.

Did you know that society is going to collapse and that we’re in for a new age of pedophilia and sexual trafficking now that Plan B is going to be over the counter? Yeah, me neither.

I learn something new every day.

LET THE WILD RUMPUS BEGIN!!

//

176 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:56:47am

re: #174 A Mom Anon

Let me guess, is this mostly men melting down? Well mostly men and “concerned” mothers?

You betcha! Apparently, teh ebil gubmint has given children permission to have sex without consequences now. Or something.

Can the pharmacies object to and not sell it? I expect that will be the next go round on this, at least in some parts of the country.

No idea. But I expect the wingnuts to try and fight it.

177 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:57:07am
178 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:58:22am

re: #173 Lidane

I am amused at the wingnut meltdowns on Twitter over the Obama administration dropping the fight over age restrictions for the morning after pill.

Did you know that society is going to collapse and that we’re in for a new age of pedophilia and sexual trafficking now that Plan B is going to be over the counter? Yeah, me neither.

179 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:59:22am

re: #156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

In a way, what Ed did is a perfect example of creationist argument. He asked for an example of speciation, I gave him one, and he objected that they are ‘still flies’. So he’s actually asking for a change not just in species, but in genus. An observed one.

Constant goalpost shifting.

They are still drosophila which is a genus! And thanks for backing me up on the Lidane thing. Goal posts are still in place.

180 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 5:59:29am

re: #177 Gus

Mah surprise, let me show you it.

I expect the Internet patriots who are suddenly concerned about privacy to react accordingly.

181 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:01:10am

re: #173 Lidane

I am amused at the wingnut meltdowns on Twitter over the Obama administration dropping the fight over age restrictions for the morning after pill.

Did you know that society is going to collapse and that we’re in for a new age of pedophilia and sexual trafficking now that Plan B is going to be over the counter? Yeah, me neither.

182 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:01:20am

re: #179 EdDantes

Yes, the goal posts are still in place despite you trying to shift them.

183 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:01:48am

re: #181 darthstar

The BBQ hashtag was a nice touch. Heh.

184 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:02:26am

re: #183 Lidane

The BBQ hashtag was a nice touch. Heh.

Thanks…I had space for four characters left.

185 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:02:31am

re: #179 EdDantes

I feel compelled to ask, have you ever read Origin of Species or any other book(s) about evolution?

186 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:03:15am

re: #182 Lidane

I haven’t tried to shift anything but then I know what I’m talking about. And you?

187 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:04:00am

re: #185 abolitionist

Indeed I have.

188 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:05:17am

re: #187 EdDantes

I was expecting a more informational response. Ok, which one(s)?

189 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:05:33am

re: #186 EdDantes

I haven’t tried to shift anything but then I know what I’m talking about. And you?

I know that you can’t offer a single alternative to evolution.

I’m comfortable with science. You?

190 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:08:15am

re: #178 Vicious Babushka

Uh oh. More government needed. //

191 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:08:46am

re: #188 abolitionist

Most recently, ” Your inner fish, by Neil Shubin. many others and do not come to mind at the moment.

192 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:09:10am

Oh, look! Glenn Beck is setting up another scam for his audience!

The conservative entrepreneur recently learned that he has temporarily lost the ability that so many of us take for granted — the ability to speak. Doctors informed Beck that his vocal chords have been temporarily paralyzed. The effects will “come and go,” but thankfully it is a repairable condition, he explained.

From a link to the Blaze from facebook. No, I won’t link him myself.

193 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:09:16am

re: #177 Gus

Obummer isn’t keeping us safer!!!! Obummer is spying on us!!!

194 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:09:28am

re: #191 EdDantes

Looking it up.

195 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:10:41am

re: #192 darthstar

Oh, look! Glenn Beck is setting up another scam for his audience!

From a link to the Blaze from facebook. No, I won’t link him myself.

Again?

196 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:10:41am

re: #191 EdDantes

Most recently, ” Your inner fish, by Neil Shubin. many others and do not come to mind at the moment.

I read One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish

197 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:11:16am

re: #192 darthstar

Obviously Beck is being poisoned. By who? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

/

198 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:11:47am

re: #197 Bulworth

Obviously Beck is being poisoned. By who? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

/

Obama!

199 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:11:54am

re: #195 Gus

Again?

Experts would debunk his condition, but they’re too grateful for the moment of silence.

200 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:12:21am

re: #172 A Mom Anon

Yep. I used to have a political blog back in the day. I quit because I was being fairly accurately stalked online. Guy sent me a satellite photo of my son’s school. I guess he followed me obsessively and figured out somehow where my kid went to school, to this day I have no idea how since I never so much as mentioned our names online, let alone a location specific enough to give him a clue where we lived. He was a self proclaimed Patriarchal Christian and Men’s Rights Advocate who was divorced(can’t imagine why) and hated women. A real charmer.

Anyhow, any time I talked about the expansion and creation of new security stuff, especially the PATRIOT Act, NSA, etc. I would get swarmed with hate mail and nasty comments. I was a traitor, hated America, you know the drill. So yeah, Instadumbass can shut his piehole. A lot of those hate mails came from people who read his blog, Pammy’s, Red State, Free Republic, etc. So Glenn can STFU any day now.

If you’ve ever mentioned your gender on the blog you have surrendered half of your anonymity. A birthday cuts you down to 1/365th of the remainder. It ain’t hard.

201 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:13:23am

re: #189 Lidane

I know that you can’t offer a single alternative to evolution.

I’m comfortable with science. You?

I love science. I have loved science all of my life. As a child I was fascinated by the space program. My first hero was John Glenn.

202 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:13:51am

re: #200 Decatur Deb

If you’ve ever mentioned your gender on the blog you have surrendered half of your anonymity. A birthday cuts you down to 1/365th of the remainder. It ain’t hard.

That’s why I tell people I’m an 89 year old nun born on the 4th of July

203 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:14:16am

re: #201 EdDantes

I love science. I have loved science all of my life. As a child I was fascinated by the space program. My first hero was John Glenn.

That’s fascinating. Still doesn’t explain your ignorant anti-evolution stance.

204 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:14:55am

re: #196 darthstar

I read One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish

Okay, okay…it was on tape. Does it still count?

205 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:15:12am

re: #202 darthstar

That’s why I tell people I’m an 89 year old nun born on the 4th of July

What order, sister?

206 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:15:16am

re: #196 darthstar

I read One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish

That’s it! That’s the one! It detailed the discovery of Tiktaalik!

207 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:15:55am


“A systemic plan orchestrated by hegemonic, colonialist, western Zionist entities!” //

208 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:16:38am

re: #154 Gus

Glenn Reynolds seems to have had a conversion experience. I wonder what would have caused that? Maybe he’ll expound on his Road To Damascus experience.

/

209 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:17:57am

re: #203 Lidane

That’s fascinating. Still doesn’t explain your ignorant anti-evolution stance.

Is there a question you want ask me about my anti evolution stance?

210 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:18:15am

Please retweet…

211 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:18:28am

re: #198 Gus

Well, does anyone know where the Saudi national is? Hmmmmm???

/

212 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:18:43am

Car for sale…bids now over 200,000GBP The photos are pretty funny too.

I have owned this car for 3 years, and up to then it had been lovingly cared for and maintained. Since owning the vehicle, it has been thrashed, raced, rallied, killed 3 deer, and the interior has been smashed up in a domestic, not to mention the time my wife booted the wing because I suggested she eat a salad or two. ( please refer to photo of foot next to dent for reference)

…snip,,,

The air conditioning isn’t working, but the electric windows do, so bonus. The car smokes when you boot it hard.

The rear subframe bushes could probably do with being replaced…

The good bits. Boot is big enough for 2 small or 1 big person ( see pictures)
Car sale comes with complementary hostage.
This car is well admired and often stopped by members of her majesty’s police, who give out FREE advice concerning your drinking habits and whether or not your tires need replaced. ( which is soon by the way)

Purchase of this vehicle will result in a severe rise in the number of looks of admiration you get in your local town centre, I would personally recommend wearing a large gold plated chain, a half open shirt, shaving ones head, and wearing 1 bottle of cologne at any given time to truly get desired female attention.

213 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:20:48am

re: #200 Decatur Deb

my nom de blog made it clear(it’s not this one) I was a woman, but the only other info I gave out was that I lived in Metro Atlanta. No birthdays, no real names, I even created an email address just for the blog. I took it down several years ago and asked the people in at the Way Back Machine to remove all the cached pages. It took them awhile, but you can’t find a trace of my old stuff anymore. I check from time to time. Unless someone saved the stuff, which I’m sure stalker boy did. It’s weird though, he never made a move to contact me at home or via any family or anything like that. Just a satellite photo of the kiddo’s school without a word, even in the email header. It scared me out of writing, which is probably what he wanted in the first place. Funny thing is, his blog is no longer active either.

214 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:21:29am

re: #210 Charles Johnson

Please retweet…

I find it is far better to mock than follow. I prefer to think Glenn is combing through his followers list looking for my name so he can block me, only to be disappointed by its absence.

215 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:22:53am

re: #213 A Mom Anon

That would scare the crap out of me too.

216 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:24:46am

re: #209 EdDantes

Two, actually. First, explain how you can exist in the modern world while rejecting the basis for a large part of modern science. And second, actually offer something valid to replace evolution.

217 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:25:22am

re: #212 darthstar

“Previous Owners: 8”

218 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:29:58am

re: #216 Lidane

Two, actually. First, explain how you can exist in the modern world while rejecting the basis for a large part of modern science. And second, actually offer something valid to replace evolution.

First, I do not need Darwinism to function in the modern world. Second I do not need to offer an alternative. Darwinians need to defend their beliefs.

219 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:32:18am

re: #218 EdDantes

First, I do not need Darwinism to function in the modern world. Second I do not need to offer an alternative. Darwinians need to defend their beliefs.


God/Bible says it.
I believe it.
That settles it.


I actually know people who’ve said this aloud in all seriousness.

220 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:33:03am
221 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:33:05am

re: #218 EdDantes

First, I do not need Darwinism to function in the modern world. Second I do not need to offer an alternative. Darwinians need to defend their beliefs.

Huh?

222 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:33:46am

re: #218 EdDantes

First, I do not need Darwinism to function in the modern world. Second I do not need to offer an alternative. Darwinians need to defend their beliefs.

Ah. That old bugaboo. You’re still convinced that Darwin is the sole basis for evolution. Guess that whole modern evolutionary synthesis passed you by, eh?

You DO realize that scientists today have expanded on what Darwin started and that they’ve gone far beyond The Origin of the Species, right?

223 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:33:46am

re: #221 Gus

Huh?

Note the nice goalpost shift from “evolution” to “Darwinists”.

224 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:34:30am

re: #223 Feline Fearless Leader

Note the nice goalpost shift from “evolution” to “Darwinists”.

UNPOSSIBLE! Everyone knows the goalposts haven’t moved!

225 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:35:24am

re: #221 Gus

Huh?

So far they haven’t

226 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:36:29am

re: #212 darthstar

Car for sale…bids now over 200,000GBP The photos are pretty funny too.

Well, we know two positive things about the car

The shocks are in good shape
Plenty of truck room!!

227 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:36:39am

re: #191 EdDantes

Most recently, ” Your inner fish, by Neil Shubin. many others and do not come to mind at the moment.

“My Inner Gay Fish” by Kanye West.

228 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:38:08am
229 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:39:23am

re: #223 Feline Fearless Leader

Note the nice goalpost shift from “evolution” to “Darwinists”.

Excellent point. It is meaning to some.

230 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:40:06am

re: #229 EdDantes

It’s meaningful to Creationists, sure.

231 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:40:17am

Good night all. And thanks for all the fish.

232 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:41:19am

re: #213 A Mom Anon

my nom de blog made it clear(it’s not this one) I was a woman, but the only other info I gave out was that I lived in Metro Atlanta. No birthdays, no real names, I even created an email address just for the blog. I took it down several years ago and asked the people in at the Way Back Machine to remove all the cached pages. It took them awhile, but you can’t find a trace of my old stuff anymore. I check from time to time. Unless someone saved the stuff, which I’m sure stalker boy did. It’s weird though, he never made a move to contact me at home or via any family or anything like that. Just a satellite photo of the kiddo’s school without a word, even in the email header. It scared me out of writing, which is probably what he wanted in the first place. Funny thing is, his blog is no longer active either.

OK, as I’ve said a time or two I am (was when employed) a librarian by profession but an information specialist by avocation. It is surprisingly easy to find out several key bits of information about someone who posts regularly online. If you’re willing to spend a few hundred dollars a year you gain access to a variety of databases that will let you leverage those bits and narrow the contact down to at most two or three people. Once you’re at that point the choice is to do a bit more digging for differentiators OR - and this one’s a bit nasty - “send a picture of the child’s school” for each of the targets.

By the way (and probably a bit late) that sending of a picture crossed a legal threshold. At that point the police could (and in most places would) get involved and unless your stalker took extra measures to remain anonymous someone like me would have tracked him down in a few days, at which point he’d likely spend some money for a defense attorney.

Let me make that a PSA. Unless you are a public person, if you think you’re being threatened by email and the threatener demonstrates he knows who you are, go to the police and the FBI. The police because local law enforcement has to be involved. The FBI because the perpetrator might be outside your state, and threats that cross state lines become federal offenses. AT WORST law enforcement tells you “not yet” but then adds what threshold to watch for and come back to them. At best you put a dangerous individual behind bars.

233 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:42:51am

re: #103 EdDantes

Wingnut or moonbat? I am conflicted. Is there a middle ground?

Yes, anyone with a functioning brain.

There will always be conflicts in what people think or want or believe. That’s fine and if we had a functioning government, it would lead to better things. Now, everything and every wingbat or moonnut is polarized.

There are few things that any government does that is polarized. But compromise being the foul, four-letter word it is these days makes everything polarized, right into complete non-function.

234 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:43:17am

Richard Cohen is pretty gentle on Snowden, but the whole thing is worth a read:

In a remarkably overwrought interview conducted by the vainglorious Glenn Greenwald of the Guardian, Snowden cited not one example of the programs being abused. Greenwald wrote that Snowden “lines the door of his hotel room with pillows to prevent eavesdropping” and that “he puts a large red hood over his head and laptop when entering his passwords to prevent any hidden cameras from detecting them.” Greenwald said that “Snowden will go down in history as one of America’s most consequential whistleblowers.” I think he’ll go down as a cross-dressing Little Red Riding Hood.

235 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:45:19am

re: #228 Gus

That was 2003. Back when there was terrorism. And when FBI/NSA only surveiled terrorists. Now there’s no terrorism—even though Obummer is not keeping us safe and is destroying Amercia. And now NSA is surveiling Patriot Americans. //

And something else is different, too, but I can’t quite put my fingers on exactly what.

236 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:48:39am

re: #228 Gus

Funny. When you click on the link you get Jonah’s 2003 column PLUS Clownhall’s 2013 list of column titles, such as “Obama debates Obama on surveillance” (or something, I’m not going back to check).

237 Mattand  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:50:04am

Just cruising through the past comments to see what I missed:

A) A guy (naturally) who thinks rape jokes at a major game console introduction is no big whoop

B) Another guy who is an evolution denier.

Ugh. Sometimes, I look at humanity and wonder how we ever made it out the caves.

238 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:50:58am

re: #229 EdDantes

Excellent point. It is meaning to some.

I do appreciate somewhat the nihilist “I have no theory for why evolution happens - it just does” defense. First time I’ve seen asymmetrical warfare brought to a science discussion. Defend nothing and spend all resources on attack.

239 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:51:10am
240 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:52:23am

Fuck…gotta get moving. See you all later.

241 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:52:23am

re: #236 Bulworth

Funny. When you click on the link you get Jonah’s 2003 column PLUS Clownhall’s 2013 list of column titles, such as “Obama debates Obama on surveillance” (or something, I’m not going back to check).

Yes, it looks like there was some lag on this but it appears that the right wing war bloggers are starting to concern troll about the Patriot Act.

242 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:57:55am

re: #241 Gus

Yes, it looks like there was some lag on this but it appears that the right wing war bloggers are starting to concern troll about the Patriot Act.

They had to coordinate first on making sure they agreed on where Obama’s position was so that they could properly align in the opposing side.
//

243 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:58:28am

re: #166 EdDantes

Wait. I have tried to back out of this gracefully and you persist. You have proved me wrong on nothing. What is sad is you claiming victory when you have nothing to offer. I have been honest while you are recycling old, discredited research.

See, this isn’t true. You claimed that the fossil record didn’t show species evolving over time, I showed you the horse, which is a very obvious and easy and simple way to see the evolution in the fossil record. You didn’t rebut this, you simply ignored it.

You asked for speciation: I showed you it. You then moved the goalposts and said that they’re ‘still flies’, which either shows ignorance of what species is is mendacious.

You have provided nothing, no research, no counterargument, nothing at all except flat-out false statements.

244 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:59:47am

Today in history:

2001 = Patriot Act passed to protect Americans from Terrorists

2013 = Patriot Act was passed by Al Gore and expanded by Obama to harass law-abiding Muricans, IRS targeting, phone records of Patriot groups, etc.

//

245 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:00:30am

re: #179 EdDantes

They are still drosophila which is a genus!

Right. But they are different species. A genus is not a species. The particular drosophilia I cited are incapable of breeding with each other, which, even in the uncertainty of taxonomy, is definitely speciation.

246 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:02:19am

re: #171 Lidane

Last night I read about a tea party group backing up traffic in California with their Impeach Obama signs. As I read their complaints, I kept thinking how ironic they were because these were the same complaints against Bush (and the Patriot Act) way back when.

The only difference is the guy in the White House.

While some of them are definitely racists, I still believe that it is a Dem vs. GOP thing. If Hillary had won, she would have been the cu*t in the WH. The misogyny would have been worse than it is now (which, considering how bad it is now, terrifies me). Remember that Citizens United was Citizens United Not Timid (C.U.N.T. with their snazzy snatchy logo) and their bitch that went up to the SCOTUS was about their inability to show their Hillary “documentary” within X number of days of an election.

It has been and will continue to be Dem vs. GOP for as long as we have the Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck’s of the world who demonize the other side as being non-human, not worth living, traitors, blah blah blah, which does nothing but create an environment where government cannot work, cannot function…because that is how they want it. When their side is in, smash through everything they want. When the other side is in, slam that side for what your side already did.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

247 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:04:06am

re: #137 Vicious Babushka

The Greenwald/Fischer convergence

Glenn’s got some fun new friends!

248 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:04:09am

re: #244 Bulworth

Today in history:

2001 = Patriot Act passed to protect Americans from Terrorists

2013 = Patriot Act was passed by Al Gore and expanded by Obama to harass law-abiding Muricans, IRS targeting, phone records of Patriot groups, etc.

//

2001: Patriot Act Signed into Law by Freedom Loving Murican and Texan, George W. Bush — Wingnut

2013: Patriot Act Signed into law by KENYAN MUSLIM SOCIALIST AND ANTICHRIST, Barack HUSSEIN Obama — Wingnut

249 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:07:39am
250 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:07:41am

re: #243 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

See, this isn’t true. You claimed that the fossil record didn’t show species evolving over time, I showed you the horse, which is a very obvious and easy and simple way to see the evolution in the fossil record. You didn’t rebut this, you simply ignored it.

You asked for speciation: I showed you it. You then moved the goalposts and said that they’re ‘still flies’, which either shows ignorance of what species is is mendacious.

You have provided nothing, no research, no counterargument, nothing at all except flat-out false statements.

Hey, I just finished helping my daughter study for her SAT biology/ecology subject test. For the love of all that is holy, stop! Make it stop!

251 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:08:31am

I AM NOT A NEO-NAZI! SIEG HEIL!
— Nick Griffin

252 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:11:31am

Coming up next. Nazi realists. //

253 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:11:43am
254 blueraven  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:12:58am

Booz Allen has fired Snowden. BTW they said his salary was 122K…not 200

255 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:15:17am

re: #253 Lidane

Oh my fucking god, what fatuous self-masturbatory prose.

256 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:15:58am
I kept thinking how ironic they were because these were the same complaints against Bush (and the Patriot Act) way back when.

Yeah I was one of those, reading GG and many others everyday, being outraged regularly. I like to think I’ve been tempered by time somewhat. But partisanship had a lot to do with it. I hope I’ll be more measured after the next Repub wins.

I’ve flipflopped on some of the things I previously was outraged about, like surveillance issues, drones (although drones were kind of a late development in the Bush years and I didn’t really spend much time getting outraged about them, but I probably would have if they were used or known of much earlier).

I still don’t like Gitmo. Indefinite detention is something where a lack of transparency and accountability can be horrific. And I’d prefer our country not wage war and occupy countries, although I know we will do some of both again. But the surveillance issues, as I understand them, don’t worry me greatly now.

257 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:16:15am

re: #254 blueraven

Booz Allen has fired Snowden. BTW they said his salary was 122K…not 200

Does that mean that Robocop can now officially go after him?
/

258 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:17:02am

So, the NSA was doing its job in surveillance, but not as GG was claiming. I’m shocked. Shocked.

I’m further shocked that the revelations about the guy who carried out the leak lied about details that are easily verifiable (like his salary), and made outlandish claims that if untrue cast doubt on the rest of his claims - like his ability to access other information about FISA and the process.

Also - developing at Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta. A concourse is being evacuated after what’s being described as a maintenance explosion an explosion in a maintenance shed.

259 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:17:19am

re: #255 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Oh my fucking god, what fatuous self-masturbatory prose.

It appears that The Guardian has a severe case of auto-Pulitzerphilia.

260 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:18:35am

re: #254 blueraven

122 K. That is more than my husband, with 3 master’s degrees (one in comp sci) makes as an active duty officer with 20 years experience and lots of commendations, meritorious service, etc.

122 K for this puke is criminal. and you know BAH was pocketing their retail markup as well.

261 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:18:36am

re: #254 blueraven

Booz Allen has fired Snowden. BTW they said his salary was 122K…not 200

My surprise, let me show it.

262 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:19:13am

re: #260 funky chicken

He really may have been a good sysadmin.

263 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:19:27am

re: #253 Lidane

Guardian floats that the Guardian could win a Pulitzer t.co
— Rebecca Leber (@rebleber) June 11, 2013

For “exposing” a program that USA Today exposed back in 2006?

264 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:20:24am

re: #259 Gus

It appears that The Guardian has a severe case of auto-erotic Pulitzerphilia.

Of course it’s going to turn out to be something less than a riveting story about the NSA and more about the inability of journalists to get the story right - and the walk back of a multitude of claims about what the NSA was and wasn’t doing, and what the guy claimed to be able to do, and what he actually did.

Guy’s definitely not a hero. He’s a criminal. And he’s undermining the ability of the government to go after the bad guys, who are still out there.

265 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:24:02am
266 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:25:18am

re: #265 Dr. Matt

OUTRAGE!

267 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:26:15am

Ooooh… Dim Jim and the rest are kvetching over how the IRS has put out a solicitation for a contract to get some surveillance information.

They want to get hidden cameras and other gear. It would appear to be for sting operations against shady characters - think tax preparers and others who engage in tax evasion.

Ummm… don’t these idiots like Hoft and his followers know that the IRS has law enforcement powers to investigate cases of fraud and abuse? It’s fraud and abuse that costs the agency billions in lost revenues annually - and Congress knows that this occurs?

268 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:28:16am

re: #260 funky chicken

122 K. That is more than my husband, with 3 master’s degrees (one in comp sci) makes as an active duty officer with 20 years experience and lots of commendations, meritorious service, etc.

122 K for this puke is criminal. and you know BAH was pocketing their retail markup as well.

The clearances are worth a chunk of salary once you have them. Of course, they don’t guarantee integrity apparently.

269 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:28:42am

re: #265 Dr. Matt

hey now, that took place during the previous administration and no one followed up, from our watchdog media? surely you jest!

270 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:30:13am

re: #264 lawhawk

Of course it’s going to turn out to be something less than a riveting story about the NSA and more about the inability of journalists to get the story right - and the walk back of a multitude of claims about what the NSA was and wasn’t doing, and what the guy claimed to be able to do, and what he actually did.

Guy’s definitely not a hero. He’s a criminal. And he’s undermining the ability of the government to go after the bad guys, who are still out there.

Step #3 will now be claiming that Greenwald/Snowden are an Obama-conspiracy false flag operation designed to create an environment in which future whistleblowing on NSA spying on Americas will be disbelieved from the get-go. Just another bullet point in the tyrantizing of the USA.

271 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:31:52am

re: #265 Dr. Matt

I just checked my blog reporting from 2006, and the USA Today was walking back some of the details, which are again being walked back by the WaPo and others.

Based on its reporting after the May 11 article, USA TODAY has now concluded that while the NSA has built a massive domestic calls record database involving the domestic call records of telecommunications companies, the newspaper cannot confirm that BellSouth or Verizon contracted with the NSA to provide bulk calling records to that database.

USA TODAY will continue to report on the contents and scope of the database as part of its ongoing coverage of national security and domestic surveillance.

Considering that those phone companies were threatening legal action against the paper for the May 11th report, this walkback isn’t entirely unexpected - though quite late (and a Friday before long weekend news-dump at that). I think a big story is in there somewhere about how and why those people providing details about the program named BellSouth and Verizon - and why the paper ran the story without obtaining confirmation - by contacting the companies directly. Curious. Very curious.

Oh, and it’s also interesting to read how so many right wing bloggers have flipped on the program. Back then, they were critical of the leaks and not the Administration, but now they’re critical of the Administration, even though the program is essentially the same - and critical to the NSA efforts to figure out who the bad guys are, their patterns, and what can be done to improve the NSA ability to eavesdrop on our enemies.

272 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:31:59am

re: #268 Feline Fearless Leader

The clearances are worth a chunk of salary once you have them. Of course, they don’t guarantee integrity apparently.

If you’re a contractor, the clearance is only good for as long as you are on the job. Once you are separated, the clearance is withdrawn. That said, once having had a clearance means that you can apply for another contract and get the clearance applied again.

(I learned this all during my 3-week tenure at the Job From Hell)

273 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:34:24am

re: #258 lawhawk

Sigh, fucking news channels here SUCK. It was an electrical fire in a maintenance shed that triggered a minor explosion. Shut down Concourse D and caused intermittent power outages. Then some asshole called in a bomb threat at the Capital Bldg downtown so it’s been cleared. Could these assholes, just once, find out what’s actually going on before breathlessly sending 20 news teams to cover it and say nothing for half the day? GAH!

274 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:34:52am

re: #272 Vicious Babushka

If you’re a contractor, the clearance is only good for as long as you are on the job. Once you are separated, the clearance is withdrawn. That said, once having had a clearance means that you can apply for another contract and get the clearance applied again.

(I learned this all during my 3-week tenure at the Job From Hell)

If you’ve submitted for another contract while your clearance is active you do not have to go through the clearance process. It’s typical, then, to submit for contracts on a regular basis (and if you get too much to handle, sub-contract).

Which thinking of, makes me wonder if perhaps this is how Snowden got through.

275 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:36:09am

re: #273 A Mom Anon

Then some asshole called in a bomb threat at the Capital Bldg downtown so it’s been cleared.

Not the Capital building ,,, two buildings across from the capital. One housing a court of appeals (my guess,,, someone lost an appeals case recently)

276 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:36:51am

What’s weird is that the wingnuts really aren’t freaking out that much about Snowden.

277 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:37:46am

Wiki has a good explanation of the GS pay system. Sysadmins for the FBI are generally GS-7 to GS-9. Forensic computer scientists and forensic accountants are often GS-9 to GS-11 range. Snowden was making double what actual government employees at the FBI make, and the FBI employees almost certainly have higher security clearances and, you know, degrees in their fields.

The size and cost of the “intelligence industrial complex” is disgusting. If anything comes of this clusterfuck, I hope it’s some reduction of that.

whoops, edit for link:
en.wikipedia.org

278 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:38:11am

re: #272 Vicious Babushka

If you’re a contractor, the clearance is only good for as long as you are on the job. Once you are separated, the clearance is withdrawn. That said, once having had a clearance means that you can apply for another contract and get the clearance applied again.

(I learned this all during my 3-week tenure at the Job From Hell)

Yes, and depending on its level, the clearance has to be reviewed every so many years. So it has a shelf life. Reviews are quicker than starting from scratch.

279 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:38:12am

re: #273 A Mom Anon

re: #275 sattv4u2


Then some asshole called in a bomb threat at the Capital Bldg downtown so it’s been cleared.

Not the Capital building ,,, two buildings across from the capital. One housing a court of appeals (my guess,,, someone lost an appeals case recently)

wsbtv.com

the Judicial Building, home to the attorney general and state Supreme Court, as well as the Health Building have been evacuated.

280 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:39:11am

re: #276 Gus

What’s weird is that the wingnuts really aren’t freaking out that much about Snowden.

Freep is of two minds. Of course some Freepers are of 3 or 4 minds.

281 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:40:59am

re: #280 Decatur Deb

Two minds, half a brain.

282 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:42:48am

re: #277 funky chicken

Wiki has a good explanation of the GS pay system. Sysadmins for the FBI are generally GS-7 to GS-9. Forensic computer scientists and forensic accountants are often GS-9 to GS-11 range. Snowden was making double what actual government employees at the FBI make, and the FBI employees almost certainly have higher security clearances and, you know, degrees in their fields.

The size and cost of the “intelligence industrial complex” is disgusting. If anything comes of this clusterfuck, I hope it’s some reduction of that.

Surely you don’t mean to suggest that lean, mean, market-driven commercial wizards can’t do the job better and cheaper?

283 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:43:06am

re: #275 sattv4u2

Ah ok then, they must have evacuated the Capital as a precaution then? Honestly, could they just shush until they actually know what the hell is going on? Bomb threats or suspicious packages or whatever happen downtown almost weekly. I get the precautions and all, but the breathless reporting is ridiculous.

edited to add: WSB had their little headline chyron thing under the news critters on TV saying the Capital was evacuated because of a bomb threat. I should have turned up the volume to hear it I guess.

284 iossarian  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:43:09am

re: #276 Gus

What’s weird is that the wingnuts really aren’t freaking out that much about Snowden.

On the one hand, yay authoritarianism!

On the other hand, boo ni-clang president!

285 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:43:50am

re: #276 Gus

that’s because this involves a villager, GG is most assuredly a villager and has done everything he can to make himself part of the story. Hence why the entire media circus is involved and has taken sides.

some folks that would automatically designate these revelations to the trash bin had their collective spidey senses tingle because of who the source is, others not so much. One of the many issues that I have with this whole story is who is promoting it/breaking it and how it’s in his personal wheelhouse of pet peeves.

then add the fact this its summer and we need a new distraction because the other distractions weren’t working out so well, that the fact that there’s still someone presidentin’ while black and setting up the perpetual distrust and meme that government is broken and as such, you can’t trust those Dems because they think government works.

so color me skeptical that this is anything more than outrage as usual. The questions that it leads to are conversations that need to be had, but I choose not to accept the framing that others are putting on this because it skews what gets talked about.

286 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:44:49am

re: #276 Gus

What’s weird is that the wingnuts really aren’t freaking out that much about Snowden.

I’ve seen a few wingnut Tweets that want to give him the Presidential Medal of Honor (after the current POTUS has been impeached and removed from office, of course)

287 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:45:49am

re: #282 Decatur Deb

Surely you don’t mean to suggest that lean, mean, market-driven commercial wizards can’t do the job better and cheaper?

You know, I’m starting to suspect that might not be the case. Heresy!

288 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:47:45am

re: #283 A Mom Anon

Ah ok then, they must have evacuated the Capital as a precaution then?

No

There was no evacuation of the capital building, just the two across the street

289 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:47:59am

Apparently Laura Ingraham (the shorter mAnn Coulter) is now a spokeswoman for pedophiles and child rapists:

Ingraham: Emergency contraception is ‘a good deal for pedophiles’ and child rapists
Conservative radio host Laura Ingraham on Tuesday said that the Obama administration “empowers men who want to abuse women” by complying with a court order to allow over-the-counter emergency contraception sales to women and girls of any age.

“It’s a good deal for pedophiles, a good deal for people who commit statutory rape against young girls,” Ingraham told Fox News. “If mothers and fathers across this country hear this and they think, ‘Well, I guess my daughter or her boyfriend or her rapist can go out to a pharmacy and get a bunch of, you know, hormone pills to give a little girl.’ We don’t really know the effect of a spiking or dropping a little girl’s — in many cases a young woman’s or a little girl’s hormonal levels. It’s outrageous!”

290 iossarian  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:49:28am

re: #282 Decatur Deb

Surely you don’t mean to suggest that lean, mean, market-driven commercial wizards can’t do the job better and cheaper?

“Cheaper” has to be assessed in the long term. A friend of mine just made the contractor-to-fed-employee switch because the pay cut is outweighed by the longer term security and benefits.

(This topic reminds me of the hypocritical whining about how government employees should “share the pain” in a downturn, despite the fact that those people have frequently made smart, long-term, fiscally responsible personal decisions.)

291 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:50:09am

re: #289 Dr. Matt

Apparently Laura Ingraham (the shorter mAnn Coulter) is now a spokewoman for pedophiles and child rapists:

A MOTHER TOLD ME, SHE TOLD ME HER DAUGHTER WAS GIVEN THE PLAN B PILL, AND, AND IT CAUSED MENTAL RETARDATION!!!1!!!!

292 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:50:23am

re: #9 darthstar

But Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow say…PANIC PANIC PANIC!!!

It’s times like this when I seek refuge in NPR.

If today’s Morning Edition is anything to go on, you might as well not bother there, either. Maybe I’ve missed it, but I haven’t heard the slightest bit of skepticism or for that matter anything other than completely uncritical credulity from any journalistic entity, apart from a few things that have already been posted here.

As far as I know, none of this is corroborated as anything beyond an assertion by Greenwald and his pet leaker, yet every detail is being taken at face value by… everyone?

Maybe I’ve missed all the mainstream dissent - I was pretty well distracted by the real world yesterday.

293 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:50:36am

re: #289 Dr. Matt

?

294 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:52:18am

re: #289 Dr. Matt

And Obdi, I apologize. Let’s talk to more creationists. They make a hell of a lot more sense than Laura Ingraham and perhaps even have a better grasp on basic biology as well.

295 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:52:48am

re: #293 funky chicken

?

Ingraham stated that emergency contraception is ‘a good deal for pedophiles’ and child rapists. She is now speaking on behalf of pedophiles and child rapists.

296 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:53:00am

re: #294 funky chicken

Not sure why you’re apologizing, but no problem.

297 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:53:21am

re: #289 Dr. Matt

Sigh. Where’s Big Government when the wingnuts want it?

298 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:53:40am

re: #288 sattv4u2

OK. I should have left the volume up after I heard the airport thing was not a bomb. The headline under the next news critter on the screen said Capital Evacuated. Idiots.

I’m going out to the garden, it makes more sense out there. Plus, Green Beans are ready for picking! Whee!

299 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:54:11am

re: #297 Bulworth

Sigh. Where’s Big Government when the wingnuts want it?

You’re making their tiny heads ‘splod with that sort of logic. Stop it.

300 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:54:27am

re: #289 Dr. Matt

Only Big Government can save us from the Forces of Evil Contraception. /

301 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:54:50am

re: #296 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

JK. I was begging you to stop the evolution discussion earlier.

302 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:55:54am

re: #295 Dr. Matt

Ingraham stated that emergency contraception is ‘a good deal for pedophiles’ and child rapists. She is now speaking on behalf of pedophiles and child rapists.

Bryan Fischer is saying the same thing.

303 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:56:34am

re: #295 Dr. Matt

I got that. I wanted to craft some kind of factual counter to her points, but the whole thing is so bizarre I just couldn’t find a place to start.

304 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:56:37am

good piece by Pierce ….

esquire.com

cuts through the bs to get at the root of what the discussion should really be (imho… naturally ymmv)

305 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:58:34am

re: #302 Vicious Babushka

I don’t want to have to pay for slutz pills!!

306 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:01:20am

re: #289 Dr. Matt

“If mothers and fathers across this country hear this and they think, ‘Well, I guess my daughter or her boyfriend or her rapist can go out to a pharmacy and get a bunch of, you know, hormone pills to give a little girl.’

um. ? ah, so if a parent discovers that his/her child has been a victim of rape they won’t care because plan B is available?

? uh, if a kid is being raised by that kind of fuckup parent I doubt plan B … nevermind

307 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:04:57am

I’m not going to be able to sleep well tonight

Youtube Video

308 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:10:15am

re: #276 Gus

What’s weird is that the wingnuts really aren’t freaking out that much about Snowden.

I think there are a couple factors. He’s a Paulian so it draws attention to the nuttier wing of the Republicans and Tea Party. Also he’s an obvious douchebage like Bradley Manning but Snowden is damaging Obama so they have mixed feelings.

309 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:12:59am

Here’s why I keep harping on the fact that a high school dropout creep like Snowden was getting over 100K, plus BAH’s markup:

abcnews.go.com

Yes, it’s an old article, but things haven’t changed much for the actual government agencies since then. But the good times are still rolling along at the contracting firms, and guess which political party has the most connections there?

310 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:13:14am

Employers should be able to screen potential job applicants for libertarian viewpoints. Between Snowden, the Paultards, Alex Jones, Glenn Beck, etc it’s quite clear that libertarianism is a cult….a dangerous cult that puts their perverse beliefs first and foremost.

311 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:13:19am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

Putin {HEARTS} Snowden
guardian.co.uk
/

312 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:14:20am


Derp TPM.

313 Major Tom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:14:38am

“You know nothin Ed Snowden!”


Sorry, had to, it’s been rolling around my head for two days now.

314 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:15:35am

re: #313 Major Tom

“You know nothin Ed Snowden!”

Sorry, had to, it’s been rolling around my head for two days now.

Did it make a noise like a marble in a tin can!?!?
//

(sorry,,,, too easy of an opening!!)

315 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:15:59am

re: #311 sattv4u2

Putin {HEARTS} Snowden
guardian.co.uk
/

He should be able to find a Russian embassy wherever he is. He can just live inside an embassy compound like Assange. Seems like kind of a nice lifestyle choice to me.

316 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:16:39am

Everytime I see a pic of Snowden this comes to mind:

Youtube Video

317 Major Tom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:16:54am

re: #314 sattv4u2

The spider webs dampen the tinny noise.

318 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:18:09am

re: #315 Killgore Trout

He should be able to find a Russian embassy wherever he is. He can just live inside an embassy compound like Assange. Seems like kind of a nice lifestyle choice to me.

FINDING one isn’t the issue

GETTING to one might be!

(I’m sure the US has spooks watching entrances of some embassies)

319 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:19:10am

re: #191 EdDantes

Most recently, ” Your inner fish, by Neil Shubin. many others and do not come to mind at the moment.

Found a video by that author, by the same title,
Neil Shubin - Finding Your Inner Fish
At about 4 min in, Shubin identifies himself as a paleantologist. The video (and presumably the book) is about his goal of finding “intermediate forms” of fossils as evidence of a transition between large ancient fish-like water creatures and large ancient lizard-like land creatures. As if finding or not finding a progression of “transitional forms” would be compelling evidence for or against evolution, perhaps.

I can’t even tell (from the few minutes I watched) whether the guy believes in evolution or not. He may be fooling himself with his expectation of actually finding his expected transitional forms.

Altho evolution involves change, it’s not necessarily anything close to a steady progression. In other words, transitional forms of creatures may have existed over relatively brief intervals, and therefore could be very hard to discover. So not finding them in all the situations you might expect to isn’t conclusive proof of anything.

Darwin’s idea wasn’t just about the wide variety of living things, and the remarkable similarities in many cases. His main new idea, natural selection, was able to explain in a reasonable way the why and how of that, for what he observed in the present, and in the past (fossils).

In my opinion, Darwin’s book would be far more insightful and instructive, even without pictures.

320 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:22:25am

re: #310 Dr. Matt

Employers should be able to screen potential job applicants for libertarian viewpoints. Between Snowden, the Paultards, Alex Jones, Glenn Beck, etc it’s quite clear that libertarianism is a cult….a dangerous cult that puts their perverse beliefs first and foremost.

Bleh. But they are often pretty functional regardless of political views (or science views as well.) Someone’s viewpoint of evolution or central banking often does not impact their ability to handle SQL code, accounts payable, etc.

It will boil down to personality and how (and if) they broadcast their various views on subjects not directly impacting work. Which leads to my personal opinion about the world having an “asshole problem” and not a problem with a particular group or viewpoint - just the sub-set of that group or viewpoint that are intolerant jerks about it (and many things in general.)

321 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:23:21am

Why the Greenwald angle is so troubling - when you’ve been dishonest once, and your journalism “skills” induce the smell test, that doesn’t go away. If anything, the current situation mirrors the earlier ones - complete with all the problems.

322 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:23:40am

re: #312 Gus

Actually, stunning:

According to the Washington Post, one in four intelligence workers in recent years have been a contractor, and at least 70 percent of the intelligence community’s budget has gone to private firms.

So 25% of intel workers are contractors, but they cost 70% of our intel budget? I really, really hope that isn’t true, but if it is…or is even close?

323 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:25:29am

re: #318 sattv4u2

FINDING one isn’t the issue

GETTING to one might be!

(I’m sure the US has spooks watching entrances of some embassies)

I’d vote to let the Russkies have him.

324 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:28:51am


This must mean they have some surface-to-air missiles in stock.

325 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:31:37am

re: #323 funky chicken

I’d vote to let the Russkies have him.

From a public relations viewpoint that’s not a bad idea. Once he goes to the Russians he becomes pariah to the vast majority of Americans except the fringe Bradley Manning fanboys. It also solves the possibility of a messy trial with lots of debate about suppression of journalists and whistleblowers.

326 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:32:05am

re: #324 NJDhockeyfan

This must mean they have some surface-to-air missiles in stock.

Why? I have a book on How To Build A Shed. Looking out in my back yard ,,, no shed !!!
/
just sayin’

327 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:32:31am
328 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:35:22am

re: #319 abolitionist

Given that Shubin was the discoverer of the Tiktaalik roseae fossil I think he believes in it.

And the book goes into the difficulties in finding transitional fossils since you need a combination of not necessarily common conditions. (Animal is buried in a way to promote fossilization, animal is fossilized, strata with fossil is exposed somewhere to be found, etc. And with older rocks you get fewer places due to tectonics, erosion, etc.) And Shubin also discusses the predictive manner of the search - transition to land animals occured in roughly this time period so you want to look for shallow water/swamp deposited strata from that period as the ideal location to locate the predicted fossils. Thus search in Greenland and eventually finding predicted fossils.

And “Inner Fish” goes on to look at other aspects, such as fish gill arches being repurposed by amphibians, reptiles, etc. into ear or small jaw bones. And the book is an attempt to present this at layman science level instead of being a fully scholarly work.

329 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:36:10am

re: #322 funky chicken

Actually, stunning:

So 25% of intel workers are contractors, but they cost 70% of our intel budget? I really, really hope that isn’t true, but if it is…or is even close?

Could be that some of the 75% of non-contracted intel workers salaries fall under other budgets, like those that work intel for the armed services, or state dept, ect

330 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:39:24am

re: #326 sattv4u2

Why? I have a book on How To Build A Shed. Looking out in my back yard ,,, no shed !!!
/
just sayin’

Here is the manual via the AP. It’s a pretty detailed manual.

331 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:39:28am

Anybody have any suggestions what I can get my son for his upcoming birthday which is the Big Three Oh?

332 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:06am

re: #331 Vicious Babushka

Anybody have any suggestions what I can get my son for his upcoming birthday which is the Big Three Oh?

New fishing rod?

333 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:34am

re: #332 NJDhockeyfan

New fishing rod?

He doesn’t fish.

334 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:46am

re: #331 Vicious Babushka

Anybody have any suggestions what I can get my son for his upcoming birthday which is the Big Three Oh?

A phone that autodials his mother?
:)

335 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:06am

re: #331 Vicious Babushka

Anybody have any suggestions what I can get my son for his upcoming birthday which is the Big Three Oh?

A Big Two Niner female !?!?!

336 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:53am

re: #331 Vicious Babushka

Anybody have any suggestions what I can get my son for his upcoming birthday which is the Big Three Oh?

2013 Harley Sportster 1200
Image: 2013-Harley-Davidson-Sportster-XL1200CSportster1200Custom6.jpg

337 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:53am

re: #330 NJDhockeyfan

Here is the manual via the AP. It’s a pretty detailed manual.

I haven’t even read the shed one yet!!

338 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:55am

re: #335 sattv4u2

A Big Two Niner female !?!?!

He’s happily married, has 2-year-old son.

339 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:42:36am

re: #338 Vicious Babushka

He’s happily married, has 2-year-old son.

Ahh ,,, earplugs then!!

340 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:43:16am

re: #331 Vicious Babushka

Robert Alter’s translations of the Wisdom books, with commentary.

amazon.com

Or donate to the 92nd street Y in his name.

341 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:43:16am
342 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:44:15am

re: #243 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

See, this isn’t true. You claimed that the fossil record didn’t show species evolving over time, I showed you the horse, which is a very obvious and easy and simple way to see the evolution in the fossil record. You didn’t rebut this, you simply ignored it.

You asked for speciation: I showed you it. You then moved the goalposts and said that they’re ‘still flies’, which either shows ignorance of what species is is mendacious.

You have provided nothing, no research, no counterargument, nothing at all except flat-out false statements.

Either EdDantes is a Creationist liar, or just a plain garden variety idiot. I say this because every argument he uses is a Creationist argument, every denial of fact is a Creationist denial of fact, every goalpost shifting is a Creationist goalpost shifting, right down to the demand that a process which is proposed to take centuries or millennia must happen before his eyes.

But he claims not to be a Creationist. And he claims not to have any other explanation for the diversity of life on Earth, not its adaptation to all of its many ecological niches. This is just stupid - he replaces SOMETHING with NOTHING. At least Creationists replace Science with Magic.

343 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:44:21am

re: #341 Vicious Babushka

He wants one of these

Owning a pick-up = you have to help everyone move.

344 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:44:48am

We could also send Snowden to Iran. I bet they’d love to have him and it would solve a lot of problems.

345 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:45:03am
346 calochortus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:45:53am

re: #306 funky chicken

um. ? ah, so if a parent discovers that his/her child has been a victim of rape they won’t care because plan B is available?

? uh, if a kid is being raised by that kind of fuckup parent I doubt plan B … nevermind

Just a drive-by observation, but aren’t most pedophiles over the age of 17? Couldn’t they just buy Plan B themselves and give it to the girl? Or do these folks think you have to be female to buy it?

Of course a true pedophile is interested in prepubescent girls. A child too young get pregnant doesn’t need Plan B, but we’ll ignore that detail for now.
They’re not specifically worried about girls being taken advantage of by older men (which they ought to be) but want to keep teenage girls too scared to have sex with their boyfriends.

347 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:47:30am

re: #331 Vicious Babushka

Anybody have any suggestions what I can get my son for his upcoming birthday which is the Big Three Oh?

With kids in Huntsville? Annual pass to the McWane Center.

mcwane.org

348 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:47:36am

re: #344 Killgore Trout

We could also send Snowden to Iran. I bet they’d love to have him and it would solve a lot of problems.

Let’s wave a magic wand and turn him into a pretzel. That suggestion makes about as much sense.

349 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:49:17am

Wingnuts can’t decide who is more of a hero to them, Snowden or that kid who chewed his cookie into a gun shape.

350 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:52:25am

re: #349 Vicious Babushka

And the kid who ripped up his speech at HS graduation and talked about his faith in God

351 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:52:36am

☑ BeardosTM
☑ BrogressivesTM
☑ DudeBrosTM
☑ EmoprogsTM
☑ ManarchistsTM
☑ PuritopiansTM

352 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:52:37am

FREE POP-TART KID!!11 IMPEECH OBOMA!!11 FREEDOM!!!!111


353 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:53:08am
354 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:53:39am

DERP

355 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:53:40am
356 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:54:11am

re: #328 Feline Fearless Leader

Thanks. And congrats to Mr. Shubin for his persistence and his discovery - Tiktaalik

357 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:55:10am

re: #352 Vicious Babushka

Yeah, but it’s still lame. They’re now going to appeal to the county school board.

358 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:57:42am

This NSA thing is so much fun I wrote a little song about it.

359 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:58:18am

Amen, sister:

360 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:58:20am

re: #357 Gus

Yeah, but it’s still lame. They’re now going to appeal to the county school board.

The story isn’t really clear. The school says that he was being disruptive and boisterous, beyond just making the gun-shaped cookie, that he was running around with it and refusing to stop.

I think suspension is always a dumb idea, but it’s what happens.

361 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:59:48am

re: #360 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The story isn’t really clear. The school says that he was being disruptive and boisterous, beyond just making the gun-shaped cookie, that he was running around with it and refusing to stop.

I think suspension is always a dumb idea, but it’s what happens.

I know. There are likely other circumstances that aren’t being revealed.

362 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:00:16am

re: #360 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The story isn’t really clear. The school says that he was being disruptive and boisterous, beyond just making the gun-shaped cookie, that he was running around with it and refusing to stop.

I think suspension is always a dumb idea, but it’s what happens.

However I don’t know anyone who is making heroes and/or martyrs out of the 100 kids on a class trip who got kicked off the AirTran flight because some of them wouldn’t turn off their electronics for takeoff.

363 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:01:34am

DERP

364 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:02:14am
365 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:02:37am

Is. Are.

366 Stanghazi  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:03:54am

re: #327 Vicious Babushka

THIS THIS THIS

Amazing how short a distance it was between “The NSA is destroying our privacy!” to us destroying the privacy of Snowden’s ex-girlfriend.

367 ramex  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:06:07am

re: #363 Vicious Babushka

Obama’s praying? That doesn’t sound like Bryan Fischer’s Obama.

368 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:13:24am

DERP OF THE DAY (but the day is only half over)
WTFF? How is any of this OBAMUZ FAULT? @jansicilian would BLAME OBAMA if she stubbed her toe stepping out of the shower.

369 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:13:56am

re: #312 Gus

Derp TPM.

getting kind of annoyed with this GED/security clearance stuff. Here’s the deal: a lot of people join the army with only a GED. If they test well enough on the ASVAB they can still pick their branch, which includes things like intel. A lot of assignments require security clearances. The military starts working on these clearances while the individual is in basic so that when they go to their advanced training they can read the material.

What this means is that there are thousands of individuals out there who “only” got GEDs but who got security clearances.

Now you go to basic and even partway into advanced, have the TS clearance because you’re going to be MI, but have a little accident and get a medical discharge. Your clearance doesn’t go away, so during your transition you apply for jobs that require the clearance and a history of MI — yes, military service counts. You go in for an interview and do well, you’ve got the clearance, you’re off and running.

Notice in the prior that I said nothing about whether you went to work for a contractor or an agency. It could go either way. The thing is Snowden met the basics to start working at the NSA: already had the clearance and had intro level training in the field. And got a ‘bump’ because of the medical discharge.

Focusing on how the GED got into the NSA isn’t even a mole-hill. It’s a grain of sand on the beach, right next to the tide-ripple.

370 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:14:30am

Someone tell me why this is being reported? Are newspapers trying to purposely fuck up our national security?

U.S. intelligence operatives covertly sabotaged a prominent al-Qaeda online magazine last month in an apparent attempt to sow confusion among the group’s followers, according to officials.

It’s unclear how the hacking occurred, although U.S. intelligence agencies, including the National Security Agency and the CIA, have invested heavily in cyber-capabilities in recent years. Security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the recent operation was only the latest U.S. attempt to disrupt al-Qaeda’s online propaganda.

“You can make it hard for them to distribute it, or you can mess with the content. And you can mess with the content in a way that is obvious or in ways that are not obvious,” said one intelligence official, who, like others, spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive internal debates.

Officials at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which oversees the government’s 16 intelligence agencies, declined to comment, as did the White House and the Pentagon.

Fuck you, WaPieceOfShit.

371 erik_t  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:27am

re: #368 Vicious Babushka

DERP OF THE DAY (but the day is only half over)
WTFF? How is any of this OBAMUZ FAULT? @jansicilian would BLAME OBAMA if she stubbed her toe stepping out of the shower.

I like how six of the seven could be simplified to ‘record high US population’.

372 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:29am

re: #370 Joanne

Someone tell me why this is being reported? Are newspapers trying to purposely fuck up our national security?

Yes. When have they ever not?

373 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:47am

re: #371 erik_t

I like how six of the seven could be simplified to ‘record high US population’.

And “Boomers reach retirement age.”

374 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:49am

re: #341 Vicious Babushka

He wants one of these

much safer than the harley

375 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:17:13am

re: #370 Joanne

Someone tell me why this is being reported?

Because said one intelligence official, who, like others, spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive internal debates.

As long as there are those willing to talk about these things, even with the or because of the proviso of “spoke on condition of anonymity” news orgs will report it

376 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:17:27am

re: #374 funky chicken

much safer than the harley

I decided I will get him this.

They are a whole bunch cheaper now than last year when the Tigers won the AL playoffs.

377 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:20:31am

re: #370 Joanne

Someone tell me why this is being reported? Are newspapers trying to purposely fuck up our national security?

It certainly looks that way.

378 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:20:52am

re: #370 Joanne

Someone tell me why this is being reported? Are newspapers trying to purposely fuck up our national security?

Fuck you, WaPieceOfShit.

Don’t you remember this?

Bank Data Is Sifted by U.S. in Secret to Block Terror
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISEN
Published: June 23, 2006
WASHINGTON, June 22 — Under a secret Bush administration program initiated weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, counterterrorism officials have gained access to financial records from a vast international database and examined banking transactions involving thousands of Americans and others in the United States, according to government and industry officials.

nytimes.com

379 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:20:56am
380 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:23:21am

re: #370 Joanne

Someone tell me why this is being reported? Are newspapers trying to purposely fuck up our national security?

Fuck you, WaPieceOfShit.

381 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:24:54am

re: #378 funky chicken

See, since that affects ordinary citizens, I think that’s a fine thing to whistleblow on. It’s not the least bit the same as revealing that we’re directly manipulating enemy propaganda.

382 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:25:39am

re: #379 Lidane

A reporter for The Guardian sees a ‘small difference’ in Snowden’s salary discrepancy

Although his salary was in fact twice that of a regular employee, remember that he had to finance his own vacation time, benefits, sick pay, etc…

It does knock the difference down somewhat.

383 blueraven  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:26:00am

re: #379 Lidane

Right…That small discrepancy, almost 80K, is more than the average American makes in a year.

384 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:26:15am

More from the NY Times article:

The Bush administration has made no secret of its campaign to disrupt terrorist financing, and President Bush, Treasury officials and others have spoken publicly about those efforts. Administration officials, however, asked The New York Times not to publish this article, saying that disclosure of the Swift program could jeopardize its effectiveness. They also enlisted several current and former officials, both Democrat and Republican, to vouch for its value.

Bill Keller, the newspaper’s executive editor, said: “We have listened closely to the administration’s arguments for withholding this information, and given them the most serious and respectful consideration. We remain convinced that the administration’s extraordinary access to this vast repository of international financial data, however carefully targeted use of it may be, is a matter of public interest.”

nytimes.com

Thanks Bill Keller!

385 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:26:59am

re: #379 Lidane

34% is apparently a small difference.

I’m six foot. If I were 34% smaller, and under five feet, I think that would not be a small difference.

$78,000 as a ‘small’ difference in salary. Sheesh.

386 blueraven  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:27:18am

re: #382 Sol Berdinowitz

Although his salary was in fact twice that of a regular employee, remember that he had to manage his own vacation time, benefits, sick pay, etc…

It does knock the difference down somewhat.

No, he said he made 200K…turns out he made 122K per BAH.

387 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:28:49am

re: #370 Joanne

The right of the public to know how the government is keeping us safe has to be balanced with the right of the government to keep some stuff out of the public domain.

There’s a balancing act, but some people think that they get to unilaterally make that decision - Assange, Manning, and Snowden are the latest in a line of people who leak classified information come to mind. What they are doing isn’t heroic.

It’s putting peoples’ lives in jeopardy - whether it is through publishing information such as contacts and sources, who are then left hung out to dry (see Wikileaks) or identifying means and measures to go after terrorists.

It’s one thing to keep things secret in perpetuity. It’s another to see ongoing operations remain classified for a period of time.

The current NSA programs fall into that latter category. Congress gets briefings. They reupped the provisions in 2012. The NSA is so far operating within the law despite the breathless pronouncements by Greenwald and others. Revealing these details may undermine the agency’s ability to go after terrorists who seek to do harm to the nation. There has to be repercussions for those bad acts. They are crimes and should be prosecuted as such.

The NSA Chief, Congress, and the President should be the ones to determine when and how the programs are revealed and what details should remain hidden from public view.

Information is a weapon. We don’t go off telling everyone what a specific secret weapon does- we don’t broadcast the actual specs on a B-2 bomber, including its RCS under different conditions. Those kind of details are classified and highly protected. Release them and the person would be facing a lifetime of hurt in Leavenworth.

It shouldn’t be any different when dealing with the measures used by the NSA under federal law.

388 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:29:07am

re: #386 blueraven

No, he said he made 200K…turns out he made 122K per BHA.

In any case, Snowden is living proof that the Private Sector is cheaper and more efficient than bloated government bureaucracy, right?

/

389 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:30:20am

re: #381 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

See, since that affects ordinary citizens, I think that’s a fine thing to whistleblow on. It’s not the least bit the same as revealing that we’re directly manipulating enemy propaganda.

Ordinary citizens?

The program is limited, government officials say, to tracing transactions of people suspected of having ties to Al Qaeda by reviewing records from the nerve center of the global banking industry, a Belgian cooperative that routes about $6 trillion daily between banks, brokerages, stock exchanges and other institutions. The records mostly involve wire transfers and other methods of moving money overseas and into and out of the United States. Most routine financial transactions confined to this country are not in the database.

Viewed by the Bush administration as a vital tool, the program has played a hidden role in domestic and foreign terrorism investigations since 2001 and helped in the capture of the most wanted Qaeda figure in Southeast Asia, the officials said.

Hugely damaging leak, and horrible decision by the NYT to run the story.

390 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:30:26am

re: #388 Sol Berdinowitz

In any case, Snowden is living proof that the Private Sector is cheaper and more efficient than bloated government bureaucracy, right?

/

BUT HEEZ A PARTIOT AND A HERO!!!1!!!!

391 blueraven  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:30:30am

re: #388 Sol Berdinowitz

In any case, Snowden is living proof that the Private Sector is cheaper and more efficient than bloated government bureaucracy, right?

/

Yes, that…and Snowden is prone to exaggeration.

392 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:33:43am

re: #389 funky chicken

Ordinary citizens?

Yes.

The records mostly involve wire transfers and other methods of moving money overseas and into and out of the United States.

Lots of ordinary citizens make wire transfers, and lots of US citizens move money out of the US, especially immigrants sending money back to their families in the old country.

393 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:37:00am

CONFIRMED: Dim Jim Is Dumbest. Man. On. Teh. Internets. Ever.

394 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:44:00am

Dumbest. Man. On. Teh. Internets. Ever. Ever.

395 Christopher's Bitchins  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:44:24am

Catching up on the thread only to see some evolution denial. In 2013. Wow.

396 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:46:06am

re: #395 Christopher’s Bitchins

Catching up on the thread only to see some evolution denial. In 2013. Wow.

Well yes. I mean, when we dose fruit flies with massive amounts of raditation, we expect them to immediately become a whole new genus of insect entirely. The fact that they’re still fruit flies totally negates evolution.


///////////////////////

397 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:47:29am

re: #396 Lidane

Well yes. I mean, when we dose fruit flies with massive amounts of raditation, we expect them to immediately become a whole new genus of insect entirely. The fact that they’re still fruit flies totally negates evolution.

///////////////////////

We reject what we don’t understand.

398 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:47:56am

re: #395 Christopher’s Bitchins

Catching up on the thread only to see some evolution denial. In 2013. Wow.

These dudes also sincerely exist:

The Flat Earth Society

399 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:48:22am

One of the NSA “whistleblowers” is a James Bamford. He thinks the USS Liberty was “an inside job.”

Hiding war crimes

Another possible motive was offered by James Bamford in his 2000 book Body of Secrets. Bamford claimed that Israel mounted the attack because it worried that the Liberty would learn of the nearby killing of hundreds of Egyptian POWs by the Israeli army. In fact, no evidence has been found to corroborate a war crime charge, and Cristol has shown that Bamford’s account has little credibility. For example, Bamford quotes Marvin Nowicki, a Hebrew linguist on the U.S. surveillance aircraft that recorded the attacking Israeli pilots, to support his theory that the Israelis knew the ship to be American. Cristol reveals, however, that Nowicki stated in an exchange of letters with Bamford that “our intercepts, never before made public, showed the attack to be an accident on the part of the Israelis.”

Muhajiroun (added December 5)

Al-Muhajiroun, a militant London-based Islamic organization, posted on its Web site an October 21 article quoting from Lyndon LaRouche’s publication, Executive Intelligence Review, to make the case that “The September 11 attacks could not have been carried out without complicity from rogue elements in military/security circles inside the United States.” The article goes on to draw a parallel with an account by James Bamford in his book Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency. Bamford concluded that in 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff “proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba.” The article concludes, “To the astute reader, the potential parallels with recent events should be chilling.”

400 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:49:45am

Hmm.

401 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:50:31am

re: #396 Lidane

The funniest part of this to me is that this is a creationist argument with an end-date. In the next hundred or so years, we’ll probably be able to observe an actual genus change, probably in a bacteria or algae. They will always be fighting a slowly losing battle.

However, as Ed has shown, moving goalposts and ignoring areas where they’ve been shown to be wrong is easy for them. But their numbers will dwindle if their anti-science schtick stops being coddled in government, education, and politics.

402 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:50:45am
403 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:52:34am

Finally a connection between all this NSA news and TEH JUICE!

Who knew. My surprise. Let me show it to you.

404 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:53:05am

GOP legislature tries to end an investigative journalism course at Wisconsin universities. Paged.

Not a shocker now is it?

405 erik_t  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:53:06am

re: #401 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

However, as Ed has shown, moving goalposts and ignoring areas where they’ve been shown to be wrong is easy for them. But their numbers will dwindle if their anti-science schtick stops being coddled in government, education, and politics.

Even as things stand, the direction should be the right one. No adult is ever going to be reasoned into creationism. I’ve seen at least a few go the other way.

406 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:53:08am

re: #387 lawhawk

The right of the public to know how the government is keeping us safe has to be balanced with the right of the government to keep some stuff out of the public domain.

There’s a balancing act, but some people think that they get to unilaterally make that decision - Assange, Manning, and Snowden are the latest in a line of people who leak classified information come to mind. What they are doing isn’t heroic.

It’s putting peoples’ lives in jeopardy - whether it is through publishing information such as contacts and sources, who are then left hung out to dry (see Wikileaks) or identifying means and measures to go after terrorists.

It’s one thing to keep things secret in perpetuity. It’s another to see ongoing operations remain classified for a period of time.

The current NSA programs fall into that latter category. Congress gets briefings. They reupped the provisions in 2012. The NSA is so far operating within the law despite the breathless pronouncements by Greenwald and others. Revealing these details may undermine the agency’s ability to go after terrorists who seek to do harm to the nation. There has to be repercussions for those bad acts. They are crimes and should be prosecuted as such.

The NSA Chief, Congress, and the President should be the ones to determine when and how the programs are revealed and what details should remain hidden from public view.

Information is a weapon. We don’t go off telling everyone what a specific secret weapon does- we don’t broadcast the actual specs on a B-2 bomber, including its RCS under different conditions. Those kind of details are classified and highly protected. Release them and the person would be facing a lifetime of hurt in Leavenworth.

It shouldn’t be any different when dealing with the measures used by the NSA under federal law.

Sorta digression: a major problem these days (IMO) is overclassification. It’s a complex intersection of (mostly) “better safe than sorry” and (some) CYA. I should point out most of the latter isn’t covering screw-ups but rather more of the “If something goes wrong I’m not the one who’ll go to prison for it.”

So things that shouldn’t carry any security class get tagged ‘secret’ or better, and when they go for mandatory review the reviewers tend to keep the label (or even bump it higher).

People need this info to do their jobs. They have to read the reports to analyze them, they have to read the blueprints to know where they can re-wire buildings, they have to know how many people are in the building so they can fill out fire safety reports and get enough meals, etc. So, they have to get security clearances to get the reports. As a result 4.9 million people have current secret or higher clearances. There are almost as many who have clearance applications and/or recently held but expired due to being out of “need”. That’s close to 10% of the current workforce that has, had, or will have soon.

The nightmare from the security side is that roughly 1 in five of them cannot keep a secret. They tell their spouses, their preacher/priest, their parents. They get into arguments at bars and use inside info to reinforce their blathering. They try to impress girls/guys, usually for dates but sometimes for employment/promotions. And all this leads to the big Unintended Consequence:

If everything is secret, nothing is secret.

We have a problem. We need to have a good house-cleaning of security materials so we can have a good house-cleaning of clearance holders.

Until we do the simple fact is that while the Assanges and Mannings and Snowdens grab headlines, they’re far from the only leaks we’ve got. De Jure right to declassify may lie with the president, but the de facto right is in the hands of everyone else, and they use it erratically.

407 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:53:20am

Also regarding government jobs with Top Secret clearance: they don’t like Teh Juice.

408 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:56:37am

re: #407 Vicious Babushka

Also regarding government jobs with Top Secret clearance: they don’t like Teh Juice.

Two things the military continues to do well and efficiently:

1. cluster

2. fuck

409 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:58:35am

re: #404 Political Atheist

GOP legislature tries to end an investigative journalism course at Wisconsin universities. Paged.

Not a shocker now is it?

I read that last night. The shit that Walker and the GOP are pulling in WI is stunning. They are really fucking over poor people.

GOP motto: Let them eat cake!

410 bratwurst  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:01:06am

BREAKING: PAT ROBERTSON ADMIRES TIM TEBOW’S CHEST!

Youtube Video

411 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:04:07am

Is this really Snowden’s twitter account or is it a fake?

twitter.com

412 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:04:28am

re: #411 NJDhockeyfan

Is this really Snowden’s twitter account or is it a fake?

twitter.com

According to GG it’s fake.

413 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:06:49am


See. Just like China. //

414 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:08:11am

re: #413 Gus

What could possibly go wrong?

415 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:09:02am
416 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:12:18am

re: #415 NJDhockeyfan

Wonder what sort of severence package he’s gonna get and if he can still use Booz as a reference :-)

417 darthstar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:12:35am

re: #415 NJDhockeyfan

Couldn’t finish high school.
Couldn’t finish junior college.
Couldn’t hack the military.
Made three job bounces with the help of daddy, and just fucked that up.

Four or five years from now, he’s going to be wondering if this was a wise move.

418 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:12:58am

re: #416 piratedan

Wonder what sort of severence package he’s gonna get and if he can still use Booz as a reference :-)

Book and movie deals.

419 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:13:33am

re: #416 piratedan

Wonder what sort of severence package he’s gonna get

3 square meals a day for 25 years and a 6x6 “condo”.

420 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:13:34am

“I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are.”

- William Tecumseh Sherman

421 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:15:54am

re: #417 darthstar

Couldn’t finish high school.
Couldn’t finish junior college.
Couldn’t hack the military.
Made three job bounces with the help of daddy, and just fucked that up.

Four or five years from now, he’s going to be wondering if this was a wise move.

Let’s hope he thinks about it for the rest of his life.

Especially if assets were compromised.

422 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:16:36am

re: #394 Vicious Babushka

Planned Parenthood is the new ACLU in wingnut demonization.

423 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:16:40am

re: #417 darthstar

Couldn’t finish high school.
Couldn’t finish junior college.
Couldn’t hack the military.
Made three job bounces with the help of daddy, and just fucked that up.

Sounds like a perfect GOP presidential candidate.

424 Mattand  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:17:41am

re: #395 Christopher’s Bitchins

Catching up on the thread only to see some evolution denial. In 2013. Wow.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction. The borderline defense of a rape joke at the Xbox E3 game conference didn’t help matter either.

425 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:18:32am


Who knew.

426 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:18:57am

re: #418 Vicious Babushka

re: #419 Dr. Matt

who says you both can’t be right?

427 Mattand  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:19:02am

re: #412 Dr. Matt

According to GG it’s fake.

LOL, because if there’s a source that won’t exaggerate anything, it’s Glenn Greenwald.

428 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:19:32am

re: #427 Mattand

LOL, because if there’s a source that won’t exaggerate anything, it’s Glenn Greenwald.

Touche’

429 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:19:55am

re: #325 Killgore Trout

From a public relations viewpoint that’s not a bad idea. Once he goes to the Russians he becomes pariah to the vast majority of Americans except the fringe Bradley Manning fanboys. It also solves the possibility of a messy trial with lots of debate about suppression of journalists and whistleblowers.

Maybe he can try leaking some Russian intel secrets and see how that works out for him.

430 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:20:25am

Movie title: Fail-can and the Special Snowflake

431 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:22:00am

re: #399 Gus

Bamford is kind of whacked on some issues, like the USS Liberty, but his books on the NSA are actually pretty interesting reads, as long as you keep some skepticism intact. His basic information about the NSA is valid and verified. I read The Puzzle Palace years ago and it was quite an eye-opener.

432 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:23:16am

re: #401 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Gee, I wish I had your confidence.

It seems to me that Creationism, along with other beliefs centered on the denial of Science, is gaining steam, largely because of more effective argument techniques on the part of the denialists. They no longer depend on proving to the general public that Evolution (inter alia) is not true, but more simply on sowing doubt, and depending on the layman’s lack of critical thinking skills and lack of time to investigate.

How often have you heard, “Science keeps changing its mind”? This is clearly nonsense, and yet is widely believed, because of the presentation of scientific studies in the popular press. The sowers of doubt use this to make it seem as if 150 years of Biology is only tentative, that it may or may not be true.

I’ve argued Evolution with Creationists for years. It’s a continual Gish Gallop, where they will even pull up arguments that have been refuted ON THE SAME THREAD as part of a blunderbuss of bullshit, which leaves the uninformed thinking they’ve made a point.

“Tide comes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that.”

433 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:23:39am

I’d like to thank Greenwald and Snowden for one thing.

They’ve let the Democrats seize the National Security talking point away from the GOP.

434 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:25:09am
435 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:26:32am

re: #433 Kragar

I’d like to thank Greenwald and Snowden for one thing.

They’ve let the Democrats seize the National Security talking point away from the GOP.

In doing that, they’ve opened a bleeding gash between the TPs and their GOP legislators who set the 9/11 over-reaction in motion. With any luck, we’ll get a review to see what is needed and what does more harm than good.

436 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:26:48am

re: #432 GeneJockey

I’ve argued Evolution with Creationists for years. It’s a continual Gish Gallop, where they will even pull up arguments that have been refuted ON THE SAME THREAD as part of a blunderbuss of bullshit, which leaves the uninformed thinking they’ve made a point.

The problem is you argue seriously with people who deserve nothing more than mockery.

437 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:27:24am

re: #425 Gus

Who knew.

I am amazed by who on the right and left are sympatico with this whole thing.

It’s freaking me out, man!

438 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:28:04am

re: #431 Charles Johnson

Bamford is kind of whacked on some issues, like the USS Liberty, but his books on the NSA are actually pretty interesting reads, as long as you keep some skepticism intact. His basic information about the NSA is valid and verified. I read The Puzzle Palace years ago and it was quite an eye-opener.

I read that it was fairly popular inside the NSA —especially for some whose job descriptions didn’t seem all that clear, due to compartmentalization of info.

439 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:28:26am

re: #432 GeneJockey

440 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:28:42am
441 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:29:04am

re: #379 Lidane

I’m going to remember the Guardian’s saying that $122k to $200k is a small difference next year at performance review time. I’m sure my employer will accept this as a reasonable argument.
//

442 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:29:35am

A zombie-eyed granny starver says what?

443 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:29:53am

re: #436 SidewaysQuark

The problem is you argue seriously with people who deserve nothing more than mockery.

I think that laying out the argument for evolution against as weak a debater as Ed is good, though. He’s not doing a Gish Gallop, his misrepresentations and dodges are slow enough that each can be demonstrated. If every anti-evolutionist argued in the same way he does, I’d be glad, because his arguments are so limp.

444 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:30:03am

re: #436 SidewaysQuark

The problem is you argue seriously with people who deserve nothing more than mockery.

“Oh so you believe in Intelligent Design?”

“Yeah!”

“So you agree with me live on Earth was created by aliens to design the perfect warrior species to fight their intergalactic wars when they come to collect us in the year 2525?”

“…No.”

“Pfff, so you don’t believe in intelligent design.”

445 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:30:05am

re: #436 SidewaysQuark

The problem is you argue seriously with people who deserve nothing more than mockery.

It wasn’t for their own benefit, but rather to prevent their bullshit from taking root.

446 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:30:19am

re: #437 Joanne

I am amazed by who on the right and left are sympatico with this whole thing.

It’s freaking me out, man!

The international community never lets an opportunity to scold America when they get a chance. I’m sure that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has a few choice words to add to this current bit of news about the NSA.

447 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:30:30am

re: #439 jaunte

I created something when I banged his mom.

448 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:31:03am

re: #441 GeneJockey

I’m going to remember the Guardian’s saying that $122k to $200k is a small difference next year at performance review time. I’m sure my employer will accept this as a reasonable argument.
//

Tell him you’d like to be in the 49%.

449 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:31:08am

Hey, anyone hear from Curious Lurker?

450 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:31:32am

re: #447 Kragar

I didn’t even know Science was experimenting on Bangs.

451 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:32:12am

re: #450 jaunte

I didn’t even know Science was experimenting on Bangs.

Zooey Deschanel requires explanation.

452 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:32:47am

re: #443 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I think that laying out the argument for evolution against as weak a debater as Ed is good, though. He’s not doing a Gish Gallop, his misrepresentations and dodges are slow enough that each can be demonstrated. If every anti-evolutionist argued in the same way he does, I’d be glad, because his arguments are so limp.

He does the Gish Gallop, but at a walking pace.

453 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:33:16am
454 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:33:21am

Crazy Uncle Pat opened his pie hole again. Color me shocked.

455 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:33:26am

re: #452 GeneJockey

He does the Gish Gallop, but at a walking pace.

A Gish Andante, then.

456 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:33:28am

re: #450 jaunte

I didn’t even know Science was experimenting on Bangs.

Wasn’t it Feynman who said “You’re an untamed youth that’s the truth with your cloak full of eagles”?

457 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:33:32am

Yes. Immigration reform is just like appeasing Hitler.

458 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:34:08am

Here is the definition of a bitch-slap:

459 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:34:12am

re: #454 Lidane

Crazy Uncle Pat opened his pie hole again:

Doesn’t Pat think appeasing Hitler would have been a good idea?

460 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:21am

re: #452 GeneJockey

He does the Gish Gallop, but at a walking pace.

If one insists on arguing with creationists, I’ve found they get most annoyed when you actually keep a running tally of how many times they are factually incorrect, then remind them of their running tally every single post. Providing a link to each error and refutation in an ever-growing list amplifies the effect, if you have the energy.

461 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:25am

re: #459 Vicious Babushka

Doesn’t Pat think appeasing Hitler would have been a good idea?

That was when we had a white POTUS.

462 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:38am

re: #453 Gus

So, say, allowing more Jewish refugees into the US would be just like appeasing Hitler.

Yeah.

463 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:43am

re: #456 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Wasn’t it Feynman who said “You’re an untamed youth that’s the truth with your cloak full of eagles”?

I’ve read much on Feynman, but don’t recall that.

464 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:47am

dupe comment deleted

465 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:47am

re: #458 Dr. Matt

Here is the definition of a bitch-slap:

My wife was listening to an interview of Alex Jones on the BBC, where the interviewer asked him, if the USG were as totalitarian as you say, why are you still alive and broadcasting?

It was a thing of beauty.

466 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:35:48am

re: #446 Gus

Speaking of Iran, seems that the lone reformer (and that is a very loosely defined term as per Iran) has bowed out of the race to replace Ahmadinejad.

Mohammad Reza Aref’s decision to stand down leaves just six men on the ballot paper for Friday’s election, which will choose a successor to the hardline Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. All six have been approved by Iran’s Guardian Council, which is loyal to the country’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Mr Aref’s withdrawal means that liberals and moderates in Iran, many of whom took part in demonstrations after the last presidential election in 2009 in which Mr Ahmadinejad was returned to power despite disputed results, now have few options. Many are likely to throw their support behind Hassan Rohani, who is considered more of a moderate than the other five remaining candidates.

Many argue that the election is unlikely to produce any real change in Iran. Each of the six candidates are considered loyal to Mr Khamenei, and even the election of Mr Rohani - a cleric and former deputy speaker in the Iranian parliament - is unlikely to alter Iranian foreign policy. The Supreme Leader has ultimate control over Iran’s nuclear policy, for example, which many in the West say is designed on producing a nuclear weapon. Tehran says the programme is for peaceful means.

With everyone on the ballot having to be vetted by the Guardian Council for having the appropriate views, even “reformers” are going to largely conform to the official party line on issues. That goes for everything from their moribund economy to foreign policy re: Israel, the Sunni dominated countries, and the US.

467 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:36:13am

re: #463 abolitionist

I’ve read much on Feynman, but don’t recall that.

It’s in his “Teeth of the Hydra Upon You.”

468 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:36:19am

re: #451 Decatur Deb

She’s the exception that proves the rule.

469 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:38:38am

re: #458 Dr. Matt

Or, better yet - how did he manage to get out of the US if the NSA was tracking him all while he was busy gathering all the information he said he had. You’d think that they would have intercepted him at the airport right before he left for that bastion of free speech - China’s Hong Kong.

470 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:41:27am

re: #457 Gus

Yes. Immigration reform is just like appeasing Hitler.

May the best Godwin win…

471 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:41:53am

re: #453 Gus

Well coming from Francisco Franco’s biggest living American fan, this is pretty rich. Why don’t you shut up Pat and actually read what appeasing Hitler entitled.

472 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:42:21am

re: #442 Lidane

Well, if anyone knows creepy….

473 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:42:31am
474 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:42:49am

But yeah letting kids who have spent most of their life in America and are for all cases and purposes, American in culture and mind is just like letting Hitler take over Czechoslovakia without even blinking. Fuck you Pat, you fascist fuck.

475 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:42:55am

The police have taken over the park in Turkey. This is just breaking.

476 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:43:02am

re: #469 lawhawk

Or, better yet - how did he manage to get out of the US if the NSA was tracking him all while he was busy gathering all the information he said he had. You’d think that they would have intercepted him at the airport right before he left for that bastion of free speech - China’s Hong Kong.

I personally wonder how he got out the door with so much shit on his person without getting caught. If Booz Allen is that lax about top-secret data, that he could gather a shitload of it and get out the front door without being stopped, then it’s time we pulled their contract.

477 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:43:12am

So after the PRISM disclosure and the poll I put up closed I went looking for bigger better polling on the subject. Again we see our perceptions are largely [partisan, rather than an objective look at our civil protections. Indy voters just cringe at this kind of thing. How to break the mask of party loyalty over the facts?

However, Republicans and Democrats have had very different views of the two operations. Today, only about half of Republicans (52%) say it is acceptable for the NSA to obtain court orders to track phone call records of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism. In January 2006, fully 75% of Republicans said it was acceptable for the NSA to investigate suspected terrorists by listening in on phone calls and reading emails without court approval.

Democrats now view the NSA’s phone surveillance as acceptable by 64% to 34%. In January 2006, by a similar margin (61% to 36%), Democrats said it was unacceptable for the NSA to scrutinize phone calls and emails of suspected terrorists.

PEW RESEARCH

478 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:43:20am

re: #473 Kragar


Russia Suggests It Could Offer Snowden Asylum

Ah Russia the land of free speech and no surveillance on citizens.

479 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:44:50am

re: #478 HappyWarrior

Ah Russia the land of free speech and no surveillance on citizens.

Oh Russian Times, you so crazy.

Putin on NSA leak: Government surveillance shouldn’t break law

480 erik_t  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:44:59am

re: #476 Targetpractice

I personally wonder how he got out the door with so much shit on his person without getting caught. If Booz Allen is that lax about top-secret data, that he could gather a shitload of it and get out the front door without being stopped, then it’s time we pulled their contract.

Storage devices are so small that I don’t know how we prevent it. It’s not the olden days of the watch-camera that takes twenty photos and that’s it. A 64GB microSD card is the size of your thumbnail.

481 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:45:32am

re: #476 Targetpractice

I personally wonder how he got out the door with so much shit on his person without getting caught. If Booz Allen is that lax about top-secret data, that he could gather a shitload of it and get out the front door without being stopped, then it’s time we pulled their contract.

Do really expect that anyone seriously responsible for high-level fuckups is going to be called to account? That is not how the intelligence community functions.

482 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:47:02am

re: #479 Kragar

“…If it is in the framework of the law, then it’s ok. If not it is unacceptable,”
Putin said

What a jokester.

483 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:47:15am

re: #481 Sol Berdinowitz

Do really expect that anyone seriously responsible for high-level fuckups is going to be called to account? That is not how the intelligence community functions.

At the barest of minimums, BAH should lose all government defense/intelligence work. If they go under, so be it.

Further, all intelligence work should be done by federal employees. Outsourcing our defense and intelligence is absolutely and totally in-fucking-sane.

484 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:47:26am

re: #482 jaunte

What a jokester.

Take my wife, please!

485 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:47:36am

re: #453 Gus

Pat’s still alive?

486 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:48:23am

re: #482 jaunte

What a jokester.

So polonium poisoning is written into law somewhere in Russia?

487 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:48:31am

re: #485 Bulworth

Pat’s still alive?

Yep more bitter than ever. Last time I really heard from Pat was when he was griping that there were too many Jews on the USSC.

488 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:49:19am

re: #476 Targetpractice

I personally wonder how he got out the door with so much shit on his person without getting caught. If Booz Allen is that lax about top-secret data, that he could gather a shitload of it and get out the front door without being stopped, then it’s time we pulled their contract.

Another similarity to Manning—he got the data out on a disc disguised as a Lady GaGa rip. In both cases, the street-punks bother me less than the ‘management’ that created them.

489 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:49:21am

re: #471 HappyWarrior

anyone have a spare Sudetenland that Pat can annex?

490 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:49:30am

re: #486 Kragar

It’s probably strictly against the law in Russia.

491 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:50:03am

Yeah, Pussy Riot. LGBT’s in Russia. Got it.

492 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:51:07am

re: #488 Decatur Deb

Another similarity to Manning—he got the data out on a disc disguised as a Lady GaGa rip. In both cases, the street-punks bother me less than the ‘management’ that created them.

Like I said, if security is so lax at BAH that a desk jockey can burn that much classified info to a disk, walk out the door, and be gone for days before somebody starts looking for him, then they have serious security issues and cannot be trusted.

493 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:51:20am

re: #483 Joanne

At the barest of minimums, BAH should lose all government defense/intelligence work. If they go under, so be it.

Further, all intelligence work should be done by federal employees. Outsourcing our defense and intelligence is absolutely and totally in-fucking-sane.

That is not how the Free Market works. Once you reach a certain level, you cannot be taken to task for your failings.

494 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:53:47am

Paul Ryan: NSA Surveillance ‘Comes Across As Creepy’

Paul Ryan on the issues

Voted YES on removing need for FISA warrant for wiretapping abroad.
Voted YES on allowing electronic surveillance without a warrant.
Voted YES on continuing intelligence gathering without civil oversight.
Voted YES on making the PATRIOT Act permanent.

495 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:57:08am
496 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:57:12am

re: #494 Kragar

Paul Ryan: NSA Surveillance ‘Comes Across As Creepy’

Paul Ryan on the issues

Seriously. The GOP establishment has no room to criticize the administration at all for this.

497 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:58:48am

re: #496 HappyWarrior

Seriously. The GOP establishment has no room to criticize the administration at all for this.

“We never thought a black guy would get to use it.”
/

498 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:58:55am

Lyin’ Ryan.

499 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:01:05am

re: #497 Kragar

“We never thought a black guy would get to use it.”
/

Seriously this stuff was great to them when there was a Republican executive. Oh there’s a Democrat? Now we hate a strong executive. Sorry Congressional GOP. You don’t get to expand the power of the executive for years and then bitch when a Democratic president does what all his predecessors have done.

500 piratedan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:02:40am

re: #496 HappyWarrior

projection, thy name is GOP. Haven’t you been watching the last six years?

501 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:04:24am

re: #500 piratedan

projection, thy name is GOP. Haven’t you been watching the last six years?

Oh I have. It just never ceases to amuse me how the guys who had no problem with Bush being a powerful executive are shocked when his Democratic successor uses the same powers that they willingly gave Bush.

502 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:07:28am

re: #496 HappyWarrior

Seriously. The GOP establishment has no room to criticize the administration at all for this.

Shorter GOP:

“If we’d known a ni-CLANG was going to become POTUS we wouldn’t have signed the Patriot Act.”

503 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:09:38am

re: #502 Lidane

Shorter GOP:

Ha remember how getting Bin Laden was no longer a big deal to Romney, pretty much a tacit admission IMO that Obama could help to cure cancer and they’d still find some way to bitch or minimize it.

504 Mattand  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:13:50am

re: #499 HappyWarrior

Seriously this stuff was great to them when there was a Republican executive. Oh there’s a Democrat? Now we hate a strong executive. Sorry Congressional GOP. You don’t get to expand the power of the executive for years and then bitch when a Democratic president does what all his predecessors have done.

There’s a born-again conservative I occasionally work with who, at an Xmas party back in 07, was yammering on and on about how he doesn’t care what the government does. Look all you want, I have nothing to hide.

I would be my drawing hand that if you ask him now, he’s OUTRAGED at the dictatorial powers the Seekrit Mooslim is using to turn us into slaves.

And while I wouldn’t ascribe it to the person above, there’s a lot of Presidenting while Black informing a lot of the outrage.

505 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:16:40am

re: #504 Mattand

There’s a born-again conservative I occasionally work with who, at an Xmas party back in 07, was yammering on and on about how he doesn’t care what the government does. Look all you want, I have nothing to hide.

I would be my drawing hand that if you ask him now, he’s OUTRAGED at the dictatorial powers the Seekrit Mooslim is using to turn us into slaves.

And while I wouldn’t ascribe it to the person above, there’s a lot of Presidenting while Black informing a lot of the outrage.

And there’s a lot like that. I was reading here about Jim Sensenbrenner, the writer of the Patriot Act no less trying to make haywire of this. Really, as I said, if the right doesn’t want the executive to have too much power, maybe they should realize that when they’re giving their own executives increased power.

506 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:57:49am

re: #421 Joanne

Let’s hope he thinks about it for the rest of his life.

Especially if assets were compromised.

In Russia. On a poverty-level “pension.” Let him enjoy Putin’s hospitality for the rest of his pathetic life.

507 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:59:38am

re: #501 HappyWarrior

Oh I have. It just never ceases to amuse me how the guys who had no problem with Bush being a powerful executive are shocked when his Democratic successor uses the same powers that they willingly gave Bush.

Maybe they are so pissed because Obama appears to be accomplishing something with the powers they gave to Bush?


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