Wall Street Journal Says Google Transfers Data to the NSA via Secure FTP

Spying via SFTP
Technology • Views: 27,098

The Wall Street Journal says Google transfers data to the NSA via FTP — but please note that they’re talking about SFTP (Secure FTP), an extension of the SSH protocol that uses strong encryption: How Google Transfers Data to NSA - Digits - WSJ.

How does Google hand over data to the government? By old-fashioned secure “file transfer protocol,” or FTP. And sometimes even by hand.

That detail, which Google disclosed for the first time late Tuesday, contrasts with earlier reports that claimed the government had special access to its network and to those of other technology companies.

Chris Gaither, a Google spokesman, said that when the company receives court orders to provide information to the government, it usually does so with secure FTP, a method of sending encrypted files over the Internet.

And occasionally, Google hands over files to the government in person, he said. (He declined to say when and why they use the manual approach.)

In other words, Google “pushes” information for the government rather than allow the government to “pull” information directly from Google’s system, Gaither said. He said the company has pushed back on attempts by governments to get more direct access, but he didn’t provide details.

Also note that this somewhat confirms the limited scope of Google’s data sharing, because a dedicated SFTP account on a Google server would only show the logged-in user what Google makes available in that user’s private directory.

In other Google-related news, the Internet giant is asking the US government to allow them to Publish More National Security Request Data.

Dear Attorney General Holder and Director Mueller

Google has worked tremendously hard over the past fifteen years to earn our users’ trust. For example, we offer encryption across our services; we have hired some of the best security engineers in the world; and we have consistently pushed back on overly broad government requests for our users’ data.

We have always made clear that we comply with valid legal requests. And last week, the Director of National Intelligence acknowledged that service providers have received Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) requests.

Assertions in the press that our compliance with these requests gives the U.S. government unfettered access to our users’ data are simply untrue. However, government nondisclosure obligations regarding the number of FISA national security requests that Google receives, as well as the number of accounts covered by those requests, fuel that speculation.

We therefore ask you to help make it possible for Google to publish in our Transparency Report aggregate numbers of national security requests, including FISA disclosures—in terms of both the number we receive and their scope. Google’s numbers would clearly show that our compliance with these requests falls far short of the claims being made. Google has nothing to hide.

Google appreciates that you authorized the recent disclosure of general numbers for national security letters. There have been no adverse consequences arising from their publication, and in fact more companies are receiving your approval to do so as a result of Google’s initiative. Transparency here will likewise serve the public interest without harming national security.

We will be making this letter public and await your response.

David Drummond

Chief Legal Officer

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157 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:50:37pm

Just like the Nazis used to.
///

2 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:51:49pm

re: #1 Kragar

Just like the Nazis used to.
///

Yes, Google clearly has fascist tendencies.

//

3 erik_t  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:53:27pm

re: #1 Kragar

Just like the Nazis used to.
///

SFTP? More like SFacistTP!

4 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 7:53:56pm

SFTPGHAZI!

5 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:03:05pm

Snowdenghazi: Pull it Sir Prize.

6 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:03:23pm

The decree came down from the Kaiser himself!

The Kaiser?

Yes, the Kaiser Wilhelm.

7 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:05:00pm

This is what the earlier reports meant by a “locked mailbox.”

When you set up a dedicated SFTP account, the user has access to only one directory on a server, and they only see what you copy into that one folder.

8 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:07:39pm

All the Benghazi nuts should be watching “Strategic Air Command” right now. Good example of USAF logistics involved in planning and carrying out operations and missions. 1950s stuff, but still the same issues. And lots of footage of the old B-36 and B-47 bombers.

9 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:09:24pm

Socialist File Transfer Protocol!

Default port: 22

22 is of course 11 x 2, and today is 6/11.

Turn 6 upside down and you have 9… 9/11

COINCIDENCE?! Checkmate, Obama.

10 Lidane  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:11:13pm

Cue the nutters saying the WSJ is in on the conspiracy in 3…2..1…

11 Joanne  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:12:28pm

re: #9 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Socialist File Transfer Protocol!

Default port: 22

22 is of course 11 x 2, and today is 6/11.

Turn 6 upside down and you have 9… 9/11

COINCIDENCE?! Checkmate, Obama.

That’s some might tasty TEA!

12 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:13:08pm

re: #10 Lidane

Cue the nutters saying the WSJ is in on the conspiracy in 3…2..1…

Hell, why not? Seems like everybody suddenly is part of the Shadow Obama Cabal.

13 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:13:13pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

This is what the earlier reports meant by a “locked mailbox.”

When you set up an SFTP account, the user has access to only one directory on a server, and they only see what you copy into that one folder.

Sounds like government work.

14 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:14:05pm

re: #10 Lidane

Cue the nutters saying the WSJ is in on the conspiracy in 3…2..1…

It’s owned by News Corp, so its a plot by the right to break the left!!!

/

15 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:15:08pm

re: #12 Targetpractice

Hell, why not? Seems like everybody suddenly is part of the Shadow Obama Cabal.

I think Larry Klayton has won so far. He called the program “anti white, pro homosexual, pro Muslim.” News to the director of the NSA who is a white guy and form what I understand straight Christian from Syracuse.

16 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:15:31pm

re: #10 Lidane

Cue the nutters saying the WSJ is in on the conspiracy in 3…2..1…

Alex Jones on line two.

17 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:15:47pm

re: #13 Gus

Sounds like government work.

Not like some fast and beeping computers from a movie.

18 erik_t  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:16:26pm

Organizations requesting permission to share the extent of their participation in a known-since-at-least-2006 program: good and decent act in the furtherance of an open and democratic society.

Colluding to penetrate a NSA contractor in order to collect capital-S Secret information and then disseminate it freely without regard for appropriateness, scale, or scope: dumbass bush-league action that can quite reasonably be considered, in the form of an illustrious Mr. Bluth, at least light treason.

19 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:16:39pm

Another option is that the government has dedicated SFTP servers and Google uploads the data to them. The effect is the same — it’s a secure, one-way transfer of data.

20 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:16:51pm

re: #10 Lidane

Cue the nutters saying the WSJ is in on the conspiracy in 3…2..1…

News Corp - WSJ

21 ProTARDISLiberal  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:17:43pm

Okay, I have a Doctor Who related question that really isn’t a Doctor Who question, but rather a Scotland Question.

I having been meaning to ask this for the past week or so, but always manage to forget. So the question is this:

In the last episode of Series 7, Name of the Doctor, I realized that Jenna Louise Coleman’s costume includes a dress with what seems to be a Tartan Design.

I’ve heard/known that Tartans can be associated with places, families, and various things.

Does that Tartan-looking thing match anything? Not sure how to ask that question, but it made sense in my head.

22 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:18:01pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

Another option is that the government has dedicated SFTP servers and Google uploads the data to them. The effect is the same — it’s a secure, one-way transfer of data.

Like I was noting earlier, there’s really nothing that prevents Google from looking at the data on their own servers, is there?

23 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:20:24pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

Nope. The bottom line is that companies like Google, Apple, and Facebook have far more access to your personal data than the government, and much less oversight — apart from market forces that might punish them if they abuse the privilege.

24 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:22:06pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

Nope. The bottom line is that companies like Google, Apple, and Facebook have far more access to your personal data than the government, and much less oversight — apart from market forces that might punish them if they abuse the privilege.

Always thought as much.

25 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:22:37pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

Nope. The bottom line is that companies like Google, Apple, and Facebook have far more access to your personal data than the government, and much less oversight — apart from market forces that might punish them if they abuse the privilege.

Which is what both confounds and amuses me, is that these folks are up in arms about the government having a list of the numbers you dialed and the length of time you talked, but the companies they’re getting this info from are basically on the honor system not to go deeper than that. And there’s no oversight over that, no accountability, just the assumption that they wouldn’t dare go looking through our personal data.

26 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:22:56pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

Nope. The bottom line is that companies like Google, Apple, and Facebook have far more access to your personal data than the government, and much less oversight — apart from market forces that might punish them if they abuse the privilege.

As I’ve always said, it’s always amused me that people who fret about big government seldom turn an eye to the reality of big business having the same kind of power.

27 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:23:11pm

ICYMI

28 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:24:17pm

From hegemonic Western Zionist entities. //

29 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:24:40pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

This is what the earlier reports meant by a “locked mailbox.”

When you set up a dedicated SFTP account, the user has access to only one directory on a server, and they only see what you copy into that one folder.

No!!! More SSL/TLS certificates!

30 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:25:48pm

re: #29 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

No certificates needed for SFTP.

31 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:25:52pm

The government actually has to get a court order to look at your call history, then has to use it in conjunction with evidence from other sources to convince a judge to get a warrant to go deeper. Even if you believe for a second that they’re leaning on judges to give those out or they’re fudging the paperwork, they at least have to make the effort. The guy’s running Google’s server don’t even need to step foot in a courtroom to look through your data.

32 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:25:56pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

This is what the earlier reports meant by a “locked mailbox.”

When you set up an SFTP account, the user has access to only one directory on a server, and they only see what you copy into that one folder.

“Senator Grassley would like the witness to speak English.”

33 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:26:05pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

Another option is that the government has dedicated SFTP servers and Google uploads the data to them. The effect is the same — it’s a secure, one-way transfer of data.

Whatever happened to secure carrier pigeons?

34 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:27:00pm

re: #27 Gus

ICYMI

I love the big bobble head look.

35 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:28:13pm

re: #34 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

I love the big bobble head look.

Yeah. KT did one like that once and I was like, hey, a bigger head looks hilarious sometimes.

36 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:28:36pm
37 AlexRogan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:29:28pm

re: #33 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Whatever happened to secure carrier pigeons?

Too many hackers carrying shotguns loaded with birdshot.

38 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:29:33pm

re: #26 HappyWarrior

As I’ve always said, it’s always amused me that people who fret about big government seldom turn an eye to the reality of big business having the same kind of power.

Oh come on, it’s not like big business as has ever participated in anything shady to maximize their profit margins except that one time they created an opium epidemic to drop the price of Chinese goods

39 erik_t  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:29:41pm

In dubious fairness to the freakout-clods, there is a non-zero level of discomfort with agglomeration of disparate lumps of data, like your Google search history versus your Facebook status whatevers versus your Verizon call records. None of the individual companies so named can conduct this sort of broad survey, even if they can survey their own individual databases.

In 95% of reality, this distinction is without relevance, and the freakout-clods should beg, borrow or purchase a clue.

40 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:31:00pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

No certificates needed for SFTP.

Sorry, I panicked. I have nightmares of PureFTP following me.

41 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:31:39pm

re: #38 The Ghost of a Flea

Oh come on, it’s not like big business as has ever participated in anything shady to maximize their profit margins except that one time they created an opium epidemic to drop the price of Chinese goods

Ha. And it’s not like big business won’t use violence or oppression to protect its interests too. People want to rail against “union thugs” but I’ve noticed the same people who do don’t want to hear it if you bring up things like Homestead. I’m personally someone who is wary of the excesses of both government and corporate power.

42 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:31:54pm

re: #26 HappyWarrior

As I’ve always said, it’s always amused me that people who fret about big government seldom turn an eye to the reality of big business having the same kind of power.

That’s okay, because that’s thuh FREE MARKET!!!

Seriously, that’s pretty much the response I got when I pointed that out to wingnuts once.

43 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:33:17pm

re: #42 GeneJockey

Seriously, that’s pretty much the response I got when I pointed that out to wingnuts once.

If they actually read Smith, they’d realize that the laissez-faire bullshit they believe is a combination of 19th century Social Darwinism combined with Ayn Rand’s philosophy.

44 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:34:32pm

Just like if they actually read the Founding Fathers. They’d know that the FF’s resented the idea of a state religion. Why? Because many of them were descendants of nation-states that had state religions. The Inquisition at that point in history was still going on after all.

45 AlexRogan  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:35:12pm

re: #41 HappyWarrior

Ha. And it’s not like big business won’t use violence or oppression to protect its interests too. People want to rail against “union thugs” but I’ve noticed the same people who do don’t want to hear it if you bring up things like Homestead.

Or the Battle of the Overpass.

46 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:35:20pm

re: #1 Kragar

Just like the Nazis used to.
///

Speaking of the above, I’ve been reading through some of Greenwald’s older material, and I noticed he likes comparing people he disagrees with to Leni Riefenstahl:

On blogger BWD:

On Kathryn Bigelow:
guardian.co.uk

But, says Bigelow, that is not her responsibility: she is merely depicting, not advocating. Without comparing the crimes involved, that was always the controversy surrounding German filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl, widely hailed as one of the most brilliant and innovative filmmakers of the 20th Century, yet also widely despised for producing films that glorified Nazism and excluded all of its crimes. One of her principal defenses - I was simply showing what was taking place, not judging - has been rather vehemently rejected by most commentators, because it (at best) naively ignores the obvious effects of what she produced, and because she had a responsibility to judge those crimes.

47 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:36:36pm

re: #46 simoom

Speaking of Nazis, I’ve been reading through some of Greenwald’s older material, and I noticed he likes comparing people he disagrees with to Leni Riefenstahl:

On blogger BWD:


On Kathryn Bigelow:
guardian.co.uk

Hey look ma another asshole who thinks he’s cute by comparing people to Hitler and Nazis.

48 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:37:04pm

re: #43 HappyWarrior

If they actually read Smith, they’d realize that the laissez-faire bullshit they believe is a combination of 19th century Social Darwinism combined with Ayn Rand’s philosophy.

Smith stated it was an idealization.

49 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:37:33pm

re: #46 simoom

Speaking of Nazis, I’ve been reading through some of Greenwald’s older material, and I noticed he likes comparing people he disagrees with to Leni Riefenstahl:

On blogger BWD:


On Kathryn Bigelow:
guardian.co.uk

Godwin.

50 Interesting Times  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:38:42pm

re: #47 HappyWarrior

Hey look ma another asshole who thinks he’s cute by comparing people to Hitler and Nazis.

Glenn Greenbeck.

51 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:39:19pm

Funniest thing you’ll see happened at the Orioles-Angels game tonight. Ball hit down the left field line at Oriole Park, Mike Trout goes to make the catch and an Angel fan wearing a Mike Trout jersey no less interferes with him trying to make the play.

52 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:09pm
53 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:10pm

re: #46 simoom

Speaking of the above, I’ve been reading through some of Greenwald’s older material, and I noticed he likes comparing people he disagrees with to Leni Riefenstahl:

On blogger BWD:

On Kathryn Bigelow:
guardian.co.uk

Proposed Glenn Greenwald nickname: Godwin Boy.

54 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:32pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Proposed Glenn Greenwald nickname: Godwin Boy.

The Godwin Kid.

55 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:40:53pm

The Boy from Brazil.

56 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:14pm

Concern trolling via carrier pigeon would be highly entertaining.

57 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:48pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

The Godwin Kid.

That works: “DERPacity and the Godwin Kid.” I like it.

58 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:41:58pm

re: #55 jaunte

The Boy from Brazil.

Funny. That. Brazil. National Identity. Ron Paul. Rand Paul. Don Black. Whoops Sorry. Ron Paul Newletters. Oops.

59 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:42:16pm

Coincidence?

60 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:42:25pm

re: #56 The Ghost of a Flea

Concern trolling via carrier pigeon would be highly entertaining.

Until the pigeons crapped on you, that is.

61 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:43:13pm

re: #38 The Ghost of a Flea

Oh come on, it’s not like big business as has ever participated in anything shady to maximize their profit margins

And just like clockwork:

For the price of a car, you too can be a famous assassin.

62 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:43:42pm

I would consider Greenwald “TEH JUICE LITE.” Overall. He’s no MJ Rosenberg. Who sounds like a convicted serial killer.

63 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:44:35pm
In other Google-related news, the Internet giant is asking the US government to allow them to Publish More National Security Request Data.

They probably might as well, as whatever the number, it will at least be further push-back against the misimpression created by Greenwald & WaPo’s initial rushed reporting. From that Google letter you posted above:

“Google’s numbers would clearly show that our compliance with these requests falls far short of the claims being made.”

64 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:45:10pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Until the pigeons crapped on you, that is.

You train it to crap on message recipients.

Afterward it delivers a message that says, “Hey, I’m just asking questions.”

65 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:45:26pm

re: #58 Gus

Funny. That. Brazil. National Identity. Ron Paul. Rand Paul. Don Black. Whoops Sorry. Ron Paul Newletters. Oops.

The Boys From Brazil!!

66 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:48:29pm

re: #61 jaunte

And just like clockwork:

For the price of a car, you too can be a famous assassin.

It’s very expensive, and its bolt action. That isn’t a massacre weapon, and given that doesn’t self-load, it could not be banned as a practical matter. This is one of those weapon’s advances you just need to accept.

67 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:49:08pm

re: #63 simoom

They probably might as well, as whatever the number, it will at least be further push-back against the misimpression created by Greenwald & WaPo’s initial rushed reporting. From that Google letter you posted above:

The letter is basically Google begging for the opportunity to prove to its users that they can feel safe to use their services by saying “Look at how many requests we turned down!”

68 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:49:17pm

If I were Israel I’d be a little worried now.

69 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:50:57pm

re: #68 Gus

If I were Israel I’d be a little worried now.

Why? Over the nastiness in Turkey?

70 jaunte  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:51:21pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

I’ll just say I don’t think it’s a positive contribution.

71 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:53:06pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

Why? Over the nastiness in Turkey?

This whole lefty crush.

72 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:53:26pm

re: #61 jaunte

Arstechnica had some coverage of that earlier this year:
$17,000 Linux-powered rifle brings “auto-aim” to the real world
and
Bullseye from 1,000 yards: Shooting the $17,000 Linux-powered rifle

The second one has video of them trying it out.

73 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:55:21pm
74 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:56:22pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

This is what the earlier reports meant by a “locked mailbox.”

When you set up a dedicated SFTP account, the user has access to only one directory on a server, and they only see what you copy into that one folder.

Charles, my attorney uses something called “lockbox” for secure data transfers, do you know it?

75 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:56:31pm
76 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:57:10pm

re: #74 Dancing along the light of day

I think you might mean “Dropbox.”

77 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:57:50pm

re: #75 Gus

Ha. The difference though is and this is by no means a defense of Beck, it’s actually a criticism but if this had happened in a Republican administration, he’d be the first asking why Snowden hasn’t been arrested and charged immediately. Moore and I don’t like him would be defending Snowden regardless as we see.

78 The Mountain That Blogs  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 8:59:35pm

re: #25 Targetpractice

Which is what both confounds and amuses me, is that these folks are up in arms about the government having a list of the numbers you dialed and the length of time you talked, but the companies they’re getting this info from are basically on the honor system not to go deeper than that. And there’s no oversight over that, no accountability, just the assumption that they wouldn’t dare go looking through our personal data.

I feel like Google and Facebook in particular look through your personal data all the time. Targeted advertising is basically their product.

79 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:00:32pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

The Godwin Kid.

And in the red corner, formerly of Fox News, the Mormon Mauler, the Raving Freakazoid nut sandwich Glenn Beck!

80 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:02:45pm

re: #79 Eclectic Cyborg

And in the red corner, formerly of Fox News, the Mormon Mauler, the Raving Freakazoid nut sandwich Glenn Beck!

Wouldn’t this be a tag team?

81 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:04:00pm

re: #80 HappyWarrior

Wouldn’t this be a tag team?

No, those two would have too much ego to tag the other one in.

/Not kidding

82 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:04:06pm

re: #80 HappyWarrior

Wouldn’t this be a tag team?

More like a dance-off or a rap battle, but more with more Nazi.

83 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:05:34pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

Meh, I was this close :)

84 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:06:12pm

re: #82 The Ghost of a Flea

More like a dance-off or a rap battle, but more with more Nazi.

There’s only room enough for one Glenn in this world!

85 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:07:29pm
86 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:07:59pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

It’s very expensive, and its bolt action. That isn’t a massacre weapon, and given that doesn’t self-load, it could not be banned as a practical matter.

No reason it can’t be banned. Just write a law restricting electronic triggering mechanisms. The only legit rifle on the market this might catch is the Veore VEC 91 which I’m pretty sure is out of production and was kind of a gimmick to begin with. Don’t think Veore even sells the caseless ammunition for it anymore.

There’s really no compelling reason to let rifles that allow a computer to decide when to fire onto the civilian market.

87 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:09:12pm

re: #85 Gus

Are they seriously trying to act like this is surprising? I mean people are tried in absentia all the time. Russia ought to know that since that was what was done to Martin Borman following WWII.

88 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:10:24pm

re: #86 goddamnedfrank

No reason it can’t be banned. Just write a law restricting electronic triggering mechanisms. The only legit rifle on the market this might catch is the Veore VEC 91 which I’m pretty sure is out of production and was kind of a gimmick to begin with. Don’t think Veore even sells the caseless ammunition for it anymore.

There’s really no compelling reason to allow rifles that allow a computer to decide when to fire onto the civilian market.

No reason not to, at this point. The very high price tag and low rate of fire of this weapon makes it extremely unlikely to be used as a crime gun. Given that, it should be legal.

89 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:12:45pm

I’ve been thinking about this whole situation a lot in the past two days. I’m an analytic thinker by nature and it’s amazing to contemplate how much power the wingnuts really think the government has.

They are apparently convinced that the government is spying on practically everyone by way of monitoring our emails, phone calls, internet activity and such.

But they apparently fail to realize the insanely massive amount of resources that would be necessary to actually pull that off.

There’s a great movie called Enemy of the State. In it, a character played by Will Smith is relentlessly monitored and pursued by a team of NSA operatives because he is unknowingly in possession of murder evidence. Notice the word up there: TEAM.

In the film, there are around TEN different NSA employees involved in the constant surveillance and monitoring of Smith’s character.

Think about how many emails, text messages, web posts, phone calls and whatnot you make in a day. Then think about how much effort just one person would have to put into monitoring all that. It’s more than one person could handle.

Now it may not take ten but let’s say for the sake of argument it takes 5 people to effectively monitor one person day in and day out.

That means if the government wanted to persistently monitor and track 200 million people (I know the U.S. population is higher but I am presenting an example here) then theoretically they would need ONE BILLION monitors to do so. Think for a moment how much it would cost to pay ONE BILLION government employees and immediately you can see how ridiculously cost prohibitive such an undertaking would be. Also, let’s also realize that even if they somehow had the money, they’d be hard pressed to find a billion people to put to work unless of course they somehow brought the entire population of China (or India) to the United States.

Even estimating conservatively and saying only three monitors would be required per person, you’d still be looking at 600 million total monitors or close to double the current U.S. population.

It is simply not practical nor feasible to monitor a large swath of the American population day in and day out as many of the wingnuts believe is happening. When you start crunching the numbers it becomes crystal clear but evidently most of these people are more interested in the narrative than the logic of the scenario.

90 Gus  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:47pm

re: #87 HappyWarrior

Are they seriously trying to act like this is surprising? I mean people are tried in absentia all the time. Russia ought to know that since that was what was done to Martin Borman following WWII.

91 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:52pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

No reason not to, at this point. The very high price tag and low rate of fire of this weapon makes it extremely unlikely to be used as a crime gun. Given that, it should be legal.

It massively extends the effective range of any novice shooter that gets their hands on one. That alone makes it intrinsically attractive as a tool for political assassination. Letting these things hit the private market is a very bad idea.

92 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:15:58pm

the internet, cell phones, debit cards, the entire 21st century electronic infrastructure is just tailor made for the ‘surveillance’ state. it hardly needs the patriot act to endow it with a decorative fig leaf. stalin would be having orgasms!

whether this electronic trail of your daily life is put to use for nefarious purposes is a very different matter. when evidence is faked, when private data is used for blackmail or other forms of manipulation, when business secrets are sold or used to fix deals - then we shall truly know what kind of a hell we have unwittingly constructed for ourselves

93 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:16:13pm

re: #89 Eclectic Cyborg

I’ve been thinking about this whole situation a lot in the past two days. I’m an analytic thinker by nature and it’s amazing to contemplate how much power the wingnuts really think the government has.

They are apparently convinced that the government is spying on practically everyone by way of monitoring our emails, phone calls, internet activity and such.

But they apparently fail to realize the insanely massive amount resources that would be necessary to actually pull that off.

There’s a great movie called Enemy of the State. In it, a character played by Will Smith is relentlessly monitored and pursued by a team of NSA operatives because he is unknowingly in possession of murder evidence. Notice the word up there: TEAM.

In the film, there are around TEN different NSA employees involved in the constant surveillance and monitoring of Smith’s character.

Think about how many emails, text messages, web posts, phone calls and whatnot you make in a day. Then think about how much effort just one person would have to put into monitoring all that. It’s more than one person could handle.

Now it may not take ten but let’s say for the sake of argument it takes 5 people to effectively monitor one person day in and day out.

That means if the government wanted to persistently monitor and track 200 million people (I know the U.S. population is higher but I am presenting an example here) then theoretically they would need ONE BILLION monitors to do so. Think for a moment how much it would cost to pay ONE BILLION government employees and immediately you can see how ridiculously cost prohibitive such an undertaking would be. Also, let’s also realize that even if they somehow had the money, they’d be hard pressed to find a billion people to put to work unless of course they somehow brought the entire population of China (or India) to the United States.

Even estimating conservatively and saying only three monitors would be required per person, you’d still be looking at 600 million total monitors or close to double the current U.S. population.

It is simply not practical nor feasible to monitor a large swath of the American population day in and day out as many of the wingnuts believe is happening. When you start crunching the numbers it becomes crystal clear but evidently most of these people are more interested in the narrative than the logic of the scenario.

There’s actually a really interesting theory that Gene Hackman’s character in that movie is an older version of his character from an earlier film callled The Conversation. If no one’s seen it, I highly recommend it. It’s got a young Harrison Ford, John Cazale (Fredo Corleone), and is one of the more underrated films from that time period. I noticed it when I was going through Cazale’s filmography and saw that this was yet another film he was in that got nominated for best picture.

94 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:24:30pm

re: #89 Eclectic Cyborg

software that implements data filtering algorithms is already in use to do just what you describe with ruthless speed and efficiency

it requires humans only at the point where the software spits up the few records that satisfy the data filter algorithms

95 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:28:36pm

re: #89 Eclectic Cyborg

I brought up Enemy of the State the other day alongside the Jason Bourne films, while I could have also mentioned James Bond, the Mission Impossible films, Eagle Eye, and the various other “rogue government agent/agency” films over the years. Movies like feed our collective paranoia by convincing us that we are all under constant surveillance, that the government’s watching our every move, and is looking for any reason to turn our lives upside down in order to keep us under their control. We’re a society that wants to believe that we’re all so special that the government would commit multibillion dollar pieces of hardware and software to monitoring us 24/7.

96 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:33:52pm

I actually got a kick out of South Park’s take on the government. That they like people to think they’re more powerful than they are. Kind of a surprising message from two of the most prominent self-described libertarians in the entertainment industry. Honestly, too much government power is a fair concern but some people take their paranoia to a new level when they feel the need to liken things that most modern Western governments do to the excesses of the Third Reich. I mean claiming as Glenn Beck did that if Hitler had the kind of technology that Obama did that there wouldn’t be a single Jew left is just fucking absurd. We need to have a real conversation on these kind of issues but we need rational people and not hysterics leading the way. And I think that’s what pisses me off the most about the story. You’ve got a guy, Snowden whose own story is full of holes, and this is the guy that Greenwald wanted to use to start a conversation on a serious issue. The issue frankly is more complicated than the old Benjamin Franklin quote of those who are willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither. With all due respect to Benjamin Franklin, one of our nation’s great minds are in a different reality than the 18th century he lived in. We need to ask questions about how we can avoid future 9/11’s and Boston Marathons without a significant loss of liberty.

97 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:34:26pm

re: #93 HappyWarrior

There’s actually a really interesting theory that Gene Hackman’s character in that movie is an older version of his character from an earlier film callled The Conversation. If no one’s seen it, I highly recommend it. It’s got a young Harrison Ford, John Cazale (Fredo Corleone), and is one of the more underrated films from that time period. I noticed it when I was going through Cazale’s filmography and saw that this was yet another film he was in that got nominated for best picture.

Yeah, that was an obvious link, right down to the horn-rim glasses. Great film!

98 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:35:34pm

re: #97 GeneJockey

Yeah, that was an obvious link, right down to the horn-rim glasses. Great film!

I really should watch both films side by side one night. Would need tons of caffeine though.

99 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:35:36pm

Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

(Reuters) - German outrage over a U.S. Internet spying program has broken out ahead of a visit by Barack Obama, with ministers demanding the president provide a full explanation when he lands in Berlin next week and one official likening the tactics to those of the East German Stasi.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman has said she will raise the issue with Obama in talks next Wednesday, potentially casting a cloud over a visit that was designed to celebrate U.S.-German ties on the 50th anniversary John F. Kennedy’s famous “Ich bin ein Berliner” speech.

In a guest editorial for Spiegel Online on Tuesday, Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said reports that the United States could access and track virtually all forms of Internet communication were “deeply disconcerting” and potentially dangerous.

“… completely bogus.” There fixed that for you Justice Minister.

Anyway, thanks Greenwald, Gellman, Poitras & Snowden ///.

100 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:37:04pm

whatever snowden ‘revealed’, whatever the most paranoid fantasy of the right or left, if it happened i wouldn’t be a bit surprised

as for the strenuous protests from the government and the companies involved as to exactly what they are and aren’t sharing - i don’t believe a word of it

101 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:43:40pm

re: #95 Targetpractice

i have no idea what actually is or isn’t happening - i don’t suppose hardly anybody really does. most likely very little surveillance if any is being carried out on the overwhelming majority of americans at this point

but in the past 20 years or so we have put in place an infrastructure that would allow surveillance at the level of the most fevered paranoid imaginings, if some eebil genius (coughdickcheneycough) cared to put it in motion

102 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:45:58pm

if i kill the thread, do i get to cook it and eat it?

103 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:48:07pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

It massively extends the effective range of any novice shooter that gets their hands on one. That alone makes it intrinsically attractive as a tool for political assassination. Letting these things hit the private market is a very bad idea.

I don’t agree and I stand by my earlier statement.

104 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:48:42pm

re: #102 engineer cat

if i kill the thread, do i get to cook it and eat it?

Only if you use garlic.

105 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:50:24pm

re: #100 engineer cat

whatever snowden ‘revealed’, whatever the most paranoid fantasy of the right or left, if it happened i wouldn’t be a bit surprised

as for the strenuous protests from the government and the companies involved as to exactly what they are and aren’t sharing - i don’t believe a word of it

I get not blindly trusting authority figures. We all have to evaluate the credibility of sources of information, expert consensus, etc, as best we can. Clearly some degree of general skepticism is healthy, but what I find baffling in this Snowden episode, is how few are bringing that same skepticism to bear on extraordinary claims of one man.

106 klys and whatnot  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:51:42pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

I don’t agree and I stand by my earlier statement.

I disagree with calling that cost-prohibitive.

Sure, if you want to be able to put food on the table the next week or even care about affecting the long term budget, $30k is relatively cost-prohibitive.

But if I don’t give a damn about what my future is because my goal is to take out someone of significance, $30k isn’t that hard to scrape together.

107 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:51:53pm

re: #43 HappyWarrior

If they actually read Smith, they’d realize that the laissez-faire bullshit they believe is a combination of 19th century Social Darwinism combined with Ayn Rand’s philosophy.

“Markets are there to serve the people, people are not there to serve the markets”
-Adam Smith’s least quoted line

108 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:54:37pm

re: #99 simoom

In a guest editorial for Spiegel Online on Tuesday, Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger

I had to stop listening to German morning radio news, hearing a name like that with a hangover is truly painful…

109 dragonath  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:54:51pm

re: #99 simoom

This is kind of unrelated, but the stance of Die Linke over the former Stasi is pretty scandalous.

110 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:55:29pm

re: #102 engineer cat

if i kill the thread, do i get to cook it and eat it?

Only if it’s a very thin thread.

111 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:55:41pm

re: #107 Sol Berdinowitz

“Markets are there to serve the people, people are not there to serve the markets”
-Adam Smith’s least quoted line

That’s actually what I was thinking of.

112 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:55:44pm

re: #109 dragonath

This is kind of unrelated, but the stance of Die Linke over the former Stasi is pretty scandalous.

Because a lot of “Die Linke” party is former Stasi…

113 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:56:21pm

My problem is really very simple:

The more this is hyped, the more it becomes about confirmation bias and conspiracy theory. The more it’s about the latter two, the less chance a constructive discussion about the 4th amendment will take place. The less organized the discussion, the less chance that we’ll actually get a meaningful change to the Patriot Act rather than some panicky shit pushed through with a bunch of weird riders.

Right now, we’ve been promised information by Snowden/Greenwald, but both have them have jumped the gun on what the promised information means. If I’m generous and don’t take that to be a sign of dishonesty, it’s still problematic because we, the people who are supposed to be making the judgement call, can’t filter their speculations from what they can prove. Atop that, there’s a bunch of other flags with regard to their objectivity: choice of refuge, statements that don’t match what information is available, the possibility this is less a leak and more an act of espionage.

I’m never going to consider Snowden or Greenwald “heroes.” That right of the bat they’re insisting on their validity without providing proof gets under my skin. That they and their defenders are using the fallacy of “the other side is suspicious, therefore you can’t be suspicious of us”…well it may not be the result of dishonesty, but it’s weak, weak sauce.

And it really doesn’t help that Glenn Greenwald is less a journalist and more a polemicist prone to exaggeration.

114 Mike Lamb  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:57:19pm

re: #99 simoom

Zee shark…it has been jumped, no?

115 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:57:34pm

re: #105 simoom

I get not blindly trusting authority figures. We all have to evaluate the credibility of sources of information, expert consensus, etc, as best we can. Clearly some degree of general skepticism is healthy, but what I find baffling in this Snowden episode, is how few are bringing that same skepticism to bear on extraordinary claims of one man.

Evil government grown too large and intrusive, revealed by a single noble whistleblower is a well-used narrative. Responsible government exercising power we are not entirely comfortable with, exposed by a self-serving leaker? Not so much.

116 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:58:33pm

re: #105 simoom

I get not blindly trusting authority figures. We all have to evaluate the credibility of sources of information, expert consensus, etc, as best we can. Clearly some degree of general skepticism is healthy, but what I find baffling in this Snowden episode, is how few are bringing that same skepticism to bear on extraordinary claims of one man.

they already wanted to believe what he purports to ‘expose’, right?

as for myself, i don’t trust what anybody says and i despair of us ever being able to know what’s really going on

117 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 9:59:01pm

re: #111 HappyWarrior

That’s actually what I was thinking of.

Adam Smith was polemicizing against state-sponsored monopolies and trade restrictions like the British East India Company and the Corn Laws that skewer the market in favor of the producers over the consumers.

Today we have the Military-Industrial Complex, Big Oil, Big Agriculture and Big Pharma, etc…

And all these multi-billion-dollar, international corporations want you to think that you as an individual, or a family with limited resources, are in a position to compete with them equally on the Free Market…

118 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:03:39pm

re: #114 Mike Lamb

Zee shark…it has been jumped, no?

Youtube Video

119 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:06:12pm

so i take it that all snowden/greenwald have produced so far are sensationalistic claims?

120 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:06:16pm

re: #117 Sol Berdinowitz

Adam Smith was polemicizing against state-sponsored monopolies and trade restrictions like the British East India Company and the Corn Laws that skewer the market in favor of the producers over the consumers.

Today we have the Military-Industrial Complex, Big Oil, Big Agriculture and Big Pharma, etc…

And all these multi-billion-dollar, international corporations want you to think that you as an individual, or a family with limited resources, are in a position to compete with them equally on the Free Market…

Whenever I talk unions, or regulations with wingnuts, they always talk about ‘the employer’ as if it’s ONE GUY, not a collective entity formed by shareholders to advance their economic interest. This makes it seem like the Big Bad Government, and/or the Big Bad Union is horning in on a couple guys reaching a friendly deal on completely equal terms.

121 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:08:34pm

re: #120 GeneJockey

Whenever I talk unions, or regulations with wingnuts, they always talk about ‘the employer’ as if it’s ONE GUY, not a collective entity formed by shareholders to advance their economic interest. This makes it seem like the Big Bad Government, and/or the Big Bad Union is horning in on a couple guys reaching a friendly deal on completely equal terms.

They still sell us the image of the Family Business, the Family Farm, etc., struggling against tax burden and government regulation, and trying to meet payroll. We still buy it.

122 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:10:08pm

re: #115 GeneJockey

Evil government grown too large and intrusive, revealed by a single noble whistleblower is a well-used narrative. Responsible government exercising power we are not entirely comfortable with, exposed by a self-serving leaker? Not so much.

This whole business is odd in that it’s reading in some ways like past examples of whistleblowing, while at the same time treading out into untested waters. Comparisons could be made Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers and there’s valid points there, like both being contractors and, if Snowden is to be believed, both motivated by the secrets being kept going against their personal beliefs. But the similarities really end there, as Ellsberg not only exposed government lies that had resulted in thousands of deaths, but then faced the music for his actions. So far as anybody can tell, nothing new has been revealed by Snowden’s “leaks,” nobody is alleged to have died as a result, and there are no lies or allegations of corruption that have been verified by the “evidence” so far.

This whole incident seems to be less about actual wrongs being done in our name by the government more about actions the government has taken in response to our frightful demands post-9/11 that we now find uncomfortable to broach but have been in no hurry to address.

123 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:17:02pm

re: #121 Sol Berdinowitz

They still sell us the image of the Family Business, the Family Farm, etc., struggling against tax burden and government regulation, and trying to meet payroll. We still buy it.

Case in point, the new Farm bill. Food stamps are cut, corporate welfare is further pumped in the form of new forms of crop insurance.

The local farming scene in KY is being flooded by offers from speculators with no ag experience precisely because of this setup—wingnut Congressman approved. It’s Too Big To Fail for farming: either you cash in from the jacked-up commondity prices, or you cash in through subsidies and insurance. Many of the biggest spenders are doing agricultural pump-and-dump: trashing leased land by doing no remediation, pushing through two to five years of corn and soy, then leaving the owner to clean up (for a hefty fee).

124 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:20:17pm

Good Night, All.

125 freetoken  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:20:40pm

re: #99 simoom

Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

“… completely bogus.” There fixed that for you Justice Minister.

Anyway, thanks Greenwald, Gellman, Poitras & Snowden ///.

I keep harping on the idea of “futureshock” and of our human inability to keep up with what our modernity has brought us. This whole affair, I propose, in one example of this.

Such short memories and short attention spans allow those in the business of presenting information (true or not isn’t the question) before the consuming eye/ear to reuse old ideas/controversies (aperiodically, usually taking a window of a few years) and sell them again.

All these fear mongers are taking advantage of the expected, ordinary, and not unreasonable fears each of us have of being the victim of someone more powerful than us.

Computers, telephony, nearly instantaneous global transmissions - all are still magick to many people. And even for those with some expertise in one of these areas the human fear of being controlled/over-powered remains.

It’s easy to sell fear because we all have fears.

When the Patriot act came up, or even before then, right after 9/11, conversation turned to the trade off of “freedom” and “security”. We’ve had this discussion, countless times. Yes, we do trade away a bit of our privacy for (the belief/hope of) security. We’ve already made that deal, as we have in the past over numerous issues.

Yet the fear of big brother remains, and is sold in every corner of our society because selling fear is a relatively easy business to be in (compared to actually building things or healing people.)

I’m talking here about the very same human fears that cause all the Bible-clinging folks in Backwoods, KY to scream about Agenda21, Darwinism, Teh Ghey, and the like. It’s all about the other forcing their way on little old me, the powerless individual.

In a world where international communications can be exploited to execute coordinated violent attacks on groups or individuals there is the resulting requirement, if you want to try and prevent that violence, of monitoring communications. There is no way around it, and to whine about it may be cathartic or it may just be the dying screams of an old way of life that can no longer exist.

126 GeneJockey  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:22:00pm

re: #121 Sol Berdinowitz

They still sell us the image of the Family Business, the Family Farm, etc., struggling against tax burden and government regulation, and trying to meet payroll. We still buy it.

That’s how we like to see ourselves. I remember watching ‘Armageddon’, after Bruce Willis Saves The Earth, and what do they show? A bunch of kids in a small town, the kind where almost nobody lives anymore. Many Americans see America that way - a country of small towns, small businesses, etc.

It’s that vision that Palin tapped into with the ‘“We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity” quote, the belief that small towns are the REAL America, and cities are foreign, unAmerican, corrupt, and full of moochers. It connects with the inferiority/persecution complex AND the ‘Golden Age’ belief system that’s at the heart of Conservatism.

127 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:24:47pm

re: #125 freetoken

The Irrationality of Giving Up This Much Liberty to Fight Terror
When confronted by far deadlier threats, Americans are much less willing to cede freedom and privacy.

128 simoom  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:26:47pm

re: #119 engineer cat

so i take it that all snowden/greenwald have produced so far are sensationalistic claims?

The FISC court order for phonecall records/metadata, excluding subscriber name and address information, appears to have been mostly presented accurately. The PRISM stuff and Snowden’s grandiose claims about what he personally had the power to do seem to be mostly BS.

129 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:29:19pm

I find it hilarious that google and NSA are using the same setup I use to update my website.

130 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:41:47pm

re: #126 GeneJockey

That’s how we like to see ourselves. I remember watching ‘Armageddon’, after Bruce Willis Saves The Earth, and what do they show? A bunch of kids in a small town, the kind where almost nobody lives anymore. Many Americans see America that way - a country of small towns, small businesses, etc.

It’s that vision that Palin tapped into with the ‘“We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity” quote, the belief that small towns are the REAL America, and cities are foreign, unAmerican, corrupt, and full of moochers. It connects with the inferiority/persecution complex AND the ‘Golden Age’ belief system that’s at the heart of Conservatism.

That’s a good point. She really did tap into a vocal minority who feel that only they are the true Americans. You saw it when she campaigned here. She would be in smaller counties and towns and talk about how glad she was to be in the “Real Virginia.” McCain’s own brother who lives in Alexandria, Va called Northern Va commie country. A curious quote since at that time two of our three reps were Republican and all but Arlington County had gone for Bush in his first election though Fairfax later went for Kerry in a foreshadowing of what was to come in 2008. What it comes down to is there are a lot of small town and I hate to use race here but they are predominately small town White Americans who see the cities and their cultural diversity and feel threatened by that. It was like this in the past too and that same insecurity is why the KKK had its golden age during a time of mass urbanization.

131 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:47:49pm

re: #128 simoom

The FISC court order for phonecall records/metadata, excluding subscriber name and address information, appears to have been mostly presented accurately. The PRISM stuff and Snowden’s grandiose claims about what he personally had the power to do seem to be mostly BS.

well, back to my original comment: that an agency might collect massive amounts of data about americans - old news. if you didn’t already realize this might happen, you need to turn off american idol and give the matter a couple minutes thought

what snowden has not shown, however, is abuse

132 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 10:54:36pm

re: #126 GeneJockey

That’s how we like to see ourselves. I remember watching ‘Armageddon’, after Bruce Willis Saves The Earth, and what do they show? A bunch of kids in a small town, the kind where almost nobody lives anymore. Many Americans see America that way - a country of small towns, small businesses, etc.

It’s that vision that Palin tapped into with the ‘“We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity” quote, the belief that small towns are the REAL America, and cities are foreign, unAmerican, corrupt, and full of moochers. It connects with the inferiority/persecution complex AND the ‘Golden Age’ belief system that’s at the heart of Conservatism.

In small towns, it’s harder to buck the local cultural system. The implicit power structure can really hammer on you, and you have fewer options to leave, rebel, or stand alone.

That’s why Palin-like nuts fetishize small towns.

Said the guy who lives in a small, conservative town.

133 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:07:50pm

I look at small towns and see Deliverance and Straw Dogs.

134 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:14:28pm

Oooh, nice, The Walking Dead video game’s DLC will be out in July.

135 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:15:23pm

re: #134 Targetpractice

Oooh, nice, The Walking Dead video game’s DLC will be out in July.

Haven’t played that at all yet. How is it?

136 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:16:35pm

re: #135 Kragar

Haven’t played that at all yet. How is it?

The feels, man, THE FEELS! I’ve watched others play it, but I haven’t been able to get past the 3rd episode because of how emotional a game it is.

137 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:20:36pm

re: #89 Eclectic Cyborg

I’ve been thinking about this whole situation a lot in the past two days. I’m an analytic thinker by nature and it’s amazing to contemplate how much power the wingnuts really think the government has.

They are apparently convinced that the government is spying on practically everyone by way of monitoring our emails, phone calls, internet activity and such.

But they apparently fail to realize the insanely massive amount of resources that would be necessary to actually pull that off.

There’s a great movie called Enemy of the State. In it, a character played by Will Smith is relentlessly monitored and pursued by a team of NSA operatives because he is unknowingly in possession of murder evidence. Notice the word up there: TEAM.

In the film, there are around TEN different NSA employees involved in the constant surveillance and monitoring of Smith’s character.

Think about how many emails, text messages, web posts, phone calls and whatnot you make in a day. Then think about how much effort just one person would have to put into monitoring all that. It’s more than one person could handle.

Now it may not take ten but let’s say for the sake of argument it takes 5 people to effectively monitor one person day in and day out.

That means if the government wanted to persistently monitor and track 200 million people (I know the U.S. population is higher but I am presenting an example here) then theoretically they would need ONE BILLION monitors to do so. Think for a moment how much it would cost to pay ONE BILLION government employees and immediately you can see how ridiculously cost prohibitive such an undertaking would be. Also, let’s also realize that even if they somehow had the money, they’d be hard pressed to find a billion people to put to work unless of course they somehow brought the entire population of China (or India) to the United States.

Even estimating conservatively and saying only three monitors would be required per person, you’d still be looking at 600 million total monitors or close to double the current U.S. population.

It is simply not practical nor feasible to monitor a large swath of the American population day in and day out as many of the wingnuts believe is happening. When you start crunching the numbers it becomes crystal clear but evidently most of these people are more interested in the narrative than the logic of the scenario.

About 1970, someone estimated that within a few short years, the US would be in need of several tens of millions of telephone operators. Guess what, it happened. Sort of. Today, nearly every one of us is our own personal telephone operator, thanks to automation of functions that were previously handled manually.

What we lacked in storage and processing power for digesting “big data” 2001, we likely now have, or will soon have.

This article might shed some light from Paul Revere’s lantern. The Observers are coming! The Observers are coming! (Sorry about that. I’m a Fringe fan. But it seemed fitting. Warning some math ahead):
Using Metadata to Find Paul Revere

Related: Sworn Declaration of Whistleblower William Binney on NSA Domestic Surveillance Capabilities

138 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:20:57pm

re: #136 Targetpractice

The feels, man, THE FEELS! I’ve watched others play it, but I haven’t been able to get past the 3rd episode because of how emotional a game it is.

Might have to check it out.

Last time I got that emotional in a game was one of the Silent Hill games where I got so freaked out by one of the scenes, I had to stop playing it.

139 dragonath  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:21:50pm

You all wish you could live in Real America, where the freeway air blows on thine Truck Nutz™ and every cloverleaf interchange has at least 3 crosses.

140 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:23:05pm

re: #138 Kragar

Might have to check it out.

Last time I got that emotional in a game was one of the Silent Hill games where I got so freaked out by one of the scenes, I had to stop playing it.

There’s a few scary scenes, and yeah you have to fight for your life, it’s a zombie apocalypse. But they really took it serious with the emotional story telling that defined the franchise as a whole. People’s struggles in a world where society has broken down and the dead feed on the living.

141 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:25:19pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

. People’s struggles in a world where society has broken down and the dead feed on the living.

So Texas basically?
/

142 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:27:12pm

re: #141 Kragar

So Texas basically?
/

Nah, southern Georgia. From the outskirts of Atlanta to Macon and eventually to Savannah.

143 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:29:02pm

You know which horror franchise really deserves a reboot?

Re-Animator.

144 Single-handed sailor  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:31:48pm

re: #143 Kragar

You know which horror franchise really deserves a reboot?

Re-Animator.

Who could replace Jeffrey Combs?

/He went on to star in Deep Space 9 and Enterprise.

145 dragonath  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:32:03pm

How about The Abominable Dr. Phibes?

146 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:32:47pm

re: #143 Kragar

You know which horror franchise really deserves a reboot?

Re-Animator.

Would you believe they released a third film almost a decade ago on the Scifi channel?

147 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:33:51pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

Would you believe they released a third film almost a decade ago on the Scifi channel?

I know, I watched it. I would try to stick closer to the books.

148 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:35:53pm

re: #147 Kragar

I know, I watched it. I would try to stick closer to the books.

Thing is that it’s a bit like Total Recall these days, the movie franchise is a cult classic, so rebooting it by taking it closer to the original material would rankle a lot of feathers.

149 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:36:01pm

And I could see Tom Hiddleston or Cillian Murphy as Dr. West.

150 Kragar  Tue, Jun 11, 2013 11:42:50pm

OFFS

Republican: Islamic leaders ‘potentially complicit’ in terrorist attacks

Representative Mike Pompeo (R-KS) on Tuesday informed Muslim leaders they were complicit in terrorism unless they perpetually denounced such acts.

“When the most devastating terrorist attacks on America in the last 20 years come overwhelmingly from people of a single faith and are performed in the name of that faith, a special obligation falls on those that are the leaders of that faith,” he said on the House floor. “Instead of responding, silence has made these Islamic leaders across America potentially complicit in these acts, and more importantly still, in those that may well follow.”

Pompeo said to avoid being complicit in terrorism, Muslim leaders must make frequent and public remarks condemning violence in their mosques and madrasas.

151 simoom  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:03:03am

I noticed that in the Guardian’s most recent reporting, they’ve quietly walked back their description of PRISM to be in line with what Google is describing above. Here’s how the Guardian is summarizing it now:

guardian.co.uk

The Guardian revealed last week that seven technology companies - Google, Facebook, Skype, PalTalk, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo - were involved in the Prism surveillance scheme run by the NSA.

The Guardian understands that the NSA approached those companies and asked them to enable a “dropbox” system whereby legally requested data could be copied from their own server out to an NSA-owned system.

In Greenwald’s initial reporting you had incendiary claims like:

* “the Prism program allows the intelligence services direct access to the companies’ servers”
* “the Prism program … allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications off the companies’ servers”
* “The Prism program allows the NSA … to obtain targeted communications without having to request them from the service providers and without having to obtain individual court orders”
* “With this program, the NSA is able to reach directly into the servers of the participating companies and obtain both stored communications as well as perform real-time collection on targeted users.”

Their older articles remain unchanged. I tossed up a diary on it here.

152 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:36:05am

Hardest things about painting Dark Eldar has been adjusting my old techniques to cover their different skin tones. Still haven’t gotten them just right.

153 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:50:52am

Marines implicated in massive Camp Pendleton area organized crime ring

The operation is the result of an organized theft and narcotics undercover operation that began Aug. 8, 2012. The inter-agency operation included NCIS, the San Diego County Regional Automobile Theft Task Force, Homeland Security Investigations and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Currently, there have been 64 grand jury indictments, two federal arrest warrants, and three Uniform Code of Military Justice apprehensions. Seven Marines, one sailor and seven Marine veterans have been implicated, ranging in rank from lance corporal to gunnery sergeant.

Items confiscated in the raid include cocaine, methamphetamines, ecstasy, enhanced small arms protective insert plates, tactical vests, M-40 gas masks, tool kits, high capacity magazines, 10,000 rounds of 5.56 millimeter ammunition, thermal monoculars, night vision goggles, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, pistols, U.S. currency, and 92 stolen automobiles. The street value of the items is estimated at one million dollars.

154 dragonath  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:37:43am

Greek public service TV taken off air to save money

No warning, no debate, and more people out of a job.

155 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:40:36am

re: #145 dragonath

How about The Abominable Dr. Phibes?

That would be cool, but you’d have some difficulty in finding a replacement for Vincent Price.

156 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:48:19am

re: #137 abolitionist

There’s a fan theory that Gene Hackman’s character from Enemy of the State is Harry Caul, his character from The Conversation .

157 abolitionist  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 2:23:54am

re: #156 Dr Lizardo

There’s a fan theory that Gene Hackman’s character from Enemy of the State is Harry Caul, his character from The Conversation .

Saw and liked The Conversation when it came out. Been a fan of Hackman since. Only seen a few eps of Person of Interest, so far. Yet to see Enemy of the State.


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