Edward Snowden Reveals Secret US Hacking Programs to China

Still think he’s a “hero?”
World • Views: 34,602

Today we get the news that NSA leaker Edward Snowden has shown top secret US documents to a pro-Beijing Hong Kong newspaper, revealing that the US has been hacking Chinese networks for at least four years.

Snowden reportedly showed reporter Lana Lam documents that showed NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. He estimated there were hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and mainland China, including the Chinese University of Hong Kong. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, Snowden said.

“We hack network backbones - like huge internet routers, basically - that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” Snowden told Lam.

The article at the South China Morning Post is currently offline, probably due to massive traffic, but here’s the address: scmp.com

I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.

UPDATE at 6/12/13 12:48:16 pm

The South China Morning Post is back online now - here are some sections of the article: Edward Snowden: US Government Has Been Hacking Hong Kong and China for Years | South China Morning Post.

In a frank hour-long interview, the 29-year-old, who US authorities have confirmed is now the subject of a criminal case, said he was neither a hero nor a traitor and that:

  • US National Security Agency’s controversial Prism programme extends to people and institutions in Hong Kong and mainland China;
  • The US is exerting “bullying” diplomatic pressure on Hong Kong to extradite him;
  • Hong Kong’s rule of law will protect him from the US;
  • He is in constant fear for his own safety and that of his family.

Snowden has been in Hong Kong since May 20 when he fled his home in Hawaii to take refuge here, a move which has been questioned by many who believe the city cannot protect him.

“People who think I made a mistake in picking HK as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality,” he said.

Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.

One of the targets in the SAR, according to Snowden, was Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city. The documents also point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets.

Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.

“We hack network backbones - like huge internet routers, basically - that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said.

“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”

Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.

“Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.”

Since the shocking revelations a week ago, Snowden has been vilified as a defector but also hailed by supporters such as WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange.

“I’m neither traitor nor hero. I’m an American,” he said, adding that he was proud to be an American. “I believe in freedom of expression. I acted in good faith but it is only right that the public form its own opinion.”

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241 comments
1 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:48:27am

“I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged … by the content of their character.”

MLK on Snowden

2 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:49:03am

Fucking asshole.

3 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:49:51am
4 GeneJockey  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:51:36am
I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.

I got nothin’.
//

5 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:52:48am

I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing

Bueller!?!?! ,,,, Bueller!?!?!,, Bueller!?!?!?

6 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:53:22am

As Merle Haggard would say, Snowden’s walking on the fightin’ side of me.

7 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:53:44am

So, why on Earth would you go to a more thoroughly rights-violated, data-obtaining nation and tell them about what the US is doing to them?

To repeat from below, this is no longer about the 4th amendment. Now it’s either some kind of “information should be free” thing or a giant shitshow by China to make the US look bad.

8 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:53:51am

Is there a Pulitzer category for enabling a Ministry of State Security intelligence operation?

9 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:53:58am

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

The Same Thing!!!

/

10 Tigger2  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:55:51am

I never did think he was a hero.

11 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:56:34am

re: #7 The Ghost of a Flea

He’s looking for a safe haven, someplace that will not only take him in but also afford him a life style that doesn’t include breaking huge rocks into small ones, and small ones into smaller ones

12 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:56:46am

I’d call Manning an idiot, a criminal, and wrong. I don’t think I’d ever call him a traitor.

Pretty hard to call this anything other than aid and comfort to our enemies.

13 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:56:49am

Jesus, I’m fucking livid right now.

14 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:56:51am

re: #7 The Ghost of a Flea

So, why on Earth would you go to a more thoroughly rights-violated, data-obtaining nation and tell them about what the US is doing to them?

To repeat from below, this is no longer about the 4th amendment. Now it’s either some kind of “information should be free” thing or a giant shitshow by China to make the US look bad.

Snowden is a libertarian of the Ron Paul variety. It’s becoming clear that he’s just monkey-wrenching - doesn’t believe that governments should have any secrets at all.

It speaks volumes that out of 41 Powerpoint slides, both the Washington Post and the Guardian only published four. That means Snowden handed over information that was so sensitive not even the Guardian thought they should publish it.

15 abolitionist  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:58:05am

I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.

But he’s speaking truth to power!

16 Bubblehead II  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:59:22am

I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.

Because

FALSE FLAG OPERATION!!!!!!

BENGHAZI!!!!!!

17 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:59:45am


Right. I’m the hater. After all, it’s just a reporter for a pro-Beijing newspaper. What’s the big deal? Hater.

18 A Mom Anon  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 10:59:47am

re: #14 Charles Johnson

So what the hell was this guy doing before BAH hired him? I’m still trying to figure out what he had that he approached Greenwald with before he even started working there. But yes, he’s a traitorous asshole and I REALLY hope he gets extradited the hell back here and ends up in Leavenworth or some other supermax.

19 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:00:59am

Never thought he was a hero. Definitely considered his claims suspect, including the fact that he’d go and exaggerate his salary (a simple thing to verify with his employer).

Now, he’s going and claiming that the NSA was regularly hacking into Chinese computer systems since at least 2009.

It’s a plausible claim. We probably are doing all manner of cyberattacks - offensive and defensively against countries around the world. We just don’t go blabbing about them.

What makes this much more serious is that he’s not only making these claims, but he’s now doing it from the very country that he claims the NSA was targeting - China. It’s not about free speech or free flow of information, but about Snowden engaging in acts that are now bordering on treason (and all the lesser included espionage charges one can think of ).

I can’t wait for Greenwald to attempt to spin this one as the action of a heroic whistleblower who wants to prevent wider conflict by blowing the lid on a secret war against other regimes.

20 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:01:09am
21 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:01:33am

re: #17 Charles Johnson

Right. I’m the hater. After all, it’s just a reporter for a pro-Beijing newspaper. What’s the big deal? Hater.

A pro-Beijing newspaper with a history of firing editors who don’t toe the pro-China line.

22 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:02:51am

This is beyond the scope of concerns over the Patriot Act and FISA. What Greenwald and Snowden are engaged in is highly damaging to the security of this nation. They are revealing things outside the realm of national civil liberties.

23 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:04:30am

re: #17 Charles Johnson

I guess he doesn’t read much.

China is responsible up to 80 per cent of US intellectual property theft, which a government report has estimated accounts for $300bn in lost exports, roughly the equivalent of the current American trade balance with Asia.
theregister.co.uk

24 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:05:52am

re: #23 jaunte

I guess he doesn’t read much.

Tell him! //

25 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:05:57am

re: #19 lawhawk

What makes this much more serious is that he’s not only making these claims, but he’s now doing it from the very country that he claims the NSA was targeting - China. It’s not about free speech or free flow of information, but about Snowden engaging in acts that are now bordering on treason (and all the lesser included espionage charges one can think of ).

I’m not even sure where you can see a “bordering on” in this.

26 danarchy  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:06:28am

While I think Snowden should be dragged back in cuffs and have the book thrown at him, I also kind of think…Well duh…if US intelligence agencies WEREN’T hacking into Chinese(and just about any other countries) systems they would have been grossly negligent in their mission.

27 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:06:51am

In other Glenn News:

28 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:06:55am

Can he be charged for Treason now?

29 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:07:21am

I guess now we know who picked up the tab for that hotel room.

30 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:07:23am

re: #22 Gus

This is beyond the scope of concerns over the Patriot Act and FISA. What Greenwald and Snowden are engaged in is highly damaging to the security of this nation. They are revealing things outside the realm of national civil liberties.

Yep and Snowden/Greenwald ruined with this any realistic possibility of having a rational conversation on this issue. Bet the right wingers who defend him will now somehow blame Obama for him leaking secrets even if the had previously wanted to give Snowden a big wet one.

31 danarchy  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:07:35am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

again? I thought he did that last month…

32 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:07:45am

re: #27 Gus

Ed Snowden IS the Saudi National!!!

/

33 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:08:06am

DERP

34 A Mom Anon  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:08:10am

re: #22 Gus

I’m trying to figure out why though. Greenwald went to freaking law school and was at one time an attorney(I believe), he has to know how messed up this is. Unless he’s just a dumbass attention ho. This whole thing really makes no sense at all.

The ONLY thing good about this whole thing will be if people finally wake up and realize how privatized the whole government has become and how the PATRIOT Act kicked the door wide open to massive private companies running most of defense and security functions. And hopefully a conversation can be had along with that about whether this is really a bargain for the taxpayers.

35 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:08:23am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

What is it with guys named Glenn and delusions of self-importance? I apologize to any lizards named Glen, Glenn, or any other incarnation of said name but wow.

36 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:08:39am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

Will that be before or after he reveals the Saudi connection to the Boston Marathon bombing?

37 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:09:13am

re: #33 Vicious Babushka

It’s kind of a relief to have an issue where some democrats are being morons.

38 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:09:39am

re: #27 Gus

He found the whitey tape?

////

39 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:09:39am

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Snowden is a libertarian of the Ron Paul variety. It’s becoming clear that he’s just monkey-wrenching - doesn’t believe that governments should have any secrets at all.

It speaks volumes that out of 41 Powerpoint slides, both the Washington Post and the Guardian only published four. That means Snowden handed over information that was so sensitive not even the Guardian thought they should publish it.

Yeah. Downstairs I referred to it as the “information wants to be free” concept.

But what kills me is…they’re in China. Even if they’re not dealing directly with the state, they’ve put themselves in the centre of an even more aggressive surveillance state while claiming to hold a bunch of US state secrets. Hong Kong may have a better human rights record than the mainland, but that’s apropos to nothing when it comes to issues of national security and foreign relations.

(added) By which I mean, there no expectation of privacy or press confidentiality…even in Hong Kong…when it comes to state security issues. So anything turned over to the Chinese press is effectively held by the mainland government. To say nothing of the actual machinery of the surveillance state being applied Snowden’s hotel, phone, wifi, etc.


I guess my Why? question is really more of an investigation “malice, or stupidity”?

I feel crazy saying it, but this is all so convenient for the PRC.

40 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:10:03am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

Glenn Beck says he’ll break news within 24 hours that will rock the nation and bring down the entire power structure:

His voice came back?
/

41 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:10:32am

re: #35 HappyWarrior

What is it with guys named Glenn and delusions of self-importance? I apologize to any lizards named Glen, Glenn, or any other incarnation of said name but wow.

Think about how I feel when I read the bloviating of Erick, son of Erick.

42 Tigger2  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:10:33am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

How many time has he claimed this now.

Glenn Beck says he’ll break news within 24 hours that will rock the nation and bring down the entire power structure:


And the entire power structure just continues to plug along.

43 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:10:35am

Now we know why he went to Hong Kong though. This guy isn’t a whistleblower. I don’t see any difference between him and people who gave intel to the USSR.

44 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:11:12am

Need to encrypt your phone calls? There’s an app for that!

New app promises to make your cell untraceable by the government

…The app is called Seecrypt, its CEO and co-founder Mornay Walters told The Daily Caller it wasn’t easy to perfect.

“Creating a scalable encrypted voice-over-data application that can operate with minimal latency anywhere in the world is not easy,” Walters began. “Seecrypt met and surpassed this challenge by using a set of proprietary protocols and a carrier grade back-end infrastructure that operates on a privately controlled and globally deployed network.”

Seecrypt only works if both the caller and the person being called have the app installed. If that’s the case the cellular provider would only know the callers were using Seecrypt but wouldn’t see a phone number or ID.

It also encrypts the conversation and data to keep it secure.

Great, now the terrorist have another tool to use.

45 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:11:14am

re: #27 Gus

46 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:12:06am

It will never cease to amaze me how people in this country lost their goddamn minds since 2008.

WTF.

47 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:12:08am

re: #45 Lidane

He says that every time and then he cries when the system pretty much remains intact.

48 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:12:39am

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Can he be charged for Treason now?

Good time to discuss the lexicography of “treason”. This probably doesn’t meet the definition in the Constitution. There are a lot of other dictionary definitions it would meet. “Anti-american bastard” satisfies my needs.

49 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:13:26am

re: #46 Lidane

It will never cease to amaze me how people in this country lost their goddamn minds since 2008.

WTF.

Yeah I have to say, I have a much more jaded view of my fellow Americans than I did before. Not all of them but there has been a rise of xenophobia since Obama got elected.

50 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:14:04am

re: #46 Lidane

It will never cease to amaze me how people in this country lost their goddamn minds since 2008.

WTF.

This has turned into one massive wingnut and moonbat convergence of cluster fuckery I haven’t seen in ages.

51 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:14:08am

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Good time to discuss the lexicography of “treason”. This probably doesn’t meet the definition in the Constitution. There are a lot of other dictionary definitions it would meet. “Anti-american bastard” satisfies my needs.

He is disclosing the nature of acts of warfare undertaken by the United States to the nation against which the United States is acting, thus aiding in their defense against future such acts. I would argue it quite rigorously meets the Constitutional definition.

52 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:14:19am

re: #49 HappyWarrior

Yeah I have to say, I have a much more jaded view of my fellow Americans than I did before. Not all of them but there has been a rise of xenophobia since Obama got elected.

It was there, but the changed political and media landscape brought it out of the woodwork and into the mainstream.

53 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:14:29am

Hope all the people who signed the petition urging that Snowden be pardoned are proud of themselves. That’s why you let infromation come out before jumping on a cause.

54 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:15:03am

re: #50 Gus

This has turned into one massive wingnut and moonbat convergence of cluster fuckery I haven’t seen in ages.

Moonnuts or Wingbats.

55 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:15:15am

re: #50 Gus

This has turned into one massive wingnut and moonbat convergence of cluster fuckery I haven’t seen in ages.

Seriously. Both Glenn Beck AND Michael Moore are calling Snowden a hero.

When that happens, you really need to think about your life choices.

56 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:15:29am

re: #46 Lidane

It will never cease to amaze me how people in this country lost their goddamn minds since 2008.

WTF.

An acquaintance of mine has gone full-metal wingnut since 2008; she’s intolerable to speak with.

I told her about eight months beforehand that Obama was going to be elected - my political instincts - and furthermore, he’d be a two-termer. She laughed, saying (and I quote) “Please. America will never, ever elect a n****r as President.”

Now she’s full-on, foaming at the mouth batshit crazy, spouting the most insane and risible conspiracy theories. It’s utterly revolting.

57 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:15:30am

re: #51 erik_t

He is disclosing the nature of acts of warfare undertaken by the United States to the nation against which the United States is acting, thus aiding in their defense against future such acts. I would argue it quite rigorously meets the Constitutional definition.

The Chinese are our friends—ask the Walton family.

58 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:16:08am

Once again.

59 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:17:23am
I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.

Tough call for the teatards; do they support communist China and their fanboy Snowden or the US government?

60 Tigger2  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:17:35am

re: #53 HappyWarrior

Hope all the people who signed the petition urging that Snowden be pardoned are proud of themselves. That’s why you let infromation come out before jumping on a cause.

I can’t find the story now, but I saw that some people that clicked on a pardon Snowden link were getting spyware loaded onto their computers. lol

61 LWNJ  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:18:31am

I don’t support giving classified documents to China, but you’d have a hard time with a treason case because of the “adhering to their enemies” clause. Since we’re not at war with China, they’d probably not be considered enemies by the courts.

Let’s not go into the “testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act” difficulty.

62 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:19:10am

I wonder how many of the same people who are fanboying Snowden want Manning to die in Gitmo. Or how many of the Snowden fans think Assange is a benevolent humanitarian.

This is just beyond stupid now. WTF.

63 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:19:10am

re: #45 Lidane

Glenn Beck has just one document from a whistleblower, but it will “take down pretty much the whole power structure”: t.co
— Right Wing Watch (@RightWingWatch) June 12, 2013

Is he finally going to reveal his super duper topic secret insider information about the Boston Saudi non-suspect?

64 Ah_Yup  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:19:33am

Well, I don’t support this guy at all but China is more rival or frenemy than enemy. We are not at war and in fact have relatively cordial relations and do an enormous amount of mutually profitable trade with them. Treason has a very definite meaning that involves aiding somebody with which there are active hostilities.

65 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:20:00am

re: #63 Dr. Matt

Is he finally going to reveal his super duper topic secret insider information about the Boston Saudi non-suspect?

He’s going to reveal that the Saudi-non suspect was wait for it a Saudi.

66 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:20:08am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

Again? I didn’t much like the last one.

//

67 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:20:59am

re: #64 Ah_Yup

do an enormous amount of mutually profitable trade with them. Treason has a very definite meaning that involves aiding somebody with which there are active hostilities.

These are not mutually exclusive, and there are active hostilities between the United States and China. That the damage is inflicted via ones and zeros does not make the economic repercussions any less real.

68 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:08am

re: #27 Gus

In other Glenn News:

Pinky: What are we gonna do tonight Beck?

The Beck: The same thing we do every night Pinky - bring down the World!

69 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:14am

re: #31 danarchy

again? I thought he did that last month…

Beat me to it

70 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:19am

I just don’t fucking know WTF is wrong with people anymore.

Congressman Demands Obama Apologize To Oklahoma For Investing In Climate Change Research

Just as extreme weather season kicks off, freshman Rep. Jim Bridenstine (R-OK) demanded that President Obama apologize to Oklahoma for allocating funding to climate change research. Bridenstine, a climate denier who serves on the House Science, Space, and Technology Committee, plans to introduce a bill that defunds climate change research.

“Even climate change alarmists admit the number of hurricanes hitting the U.S. and the number of tornado touchdowns have been on a slow decline for over 100 years,” Bridenstine said on the House floor Tuesday, according to Raw Story. “But here is what we absolutely know. We know that Oklahoma will have tornadoes when the cold jet stream meets the warm Gulf air, and we also know that this President spends 30 times as much money on global warming research as he does on weather forecasting and warning. For this gross misallocation, the people of Oklahoma are ready to accept the President’s apology and I intend to submit legislation to fix this.”

Here is what Director of the National Climatic Data Center Tom Karl had to say about hurricanes, tornadoes, and climate change in 2011: “What we can say with confidence is that heavy and extreme precipitation events often associated with thunderstorms and convection are increasing and have been linked to human-induced changes in atmospheric composition.” Meanwhile, climate scientists are in near universal agreement that climate change is driven by human activity.

Bridenstine also recently accused Obama of “dishonesty, incompetence, vengefulness” in an unhinged speech on the House floor.

71 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:26am

re: #64 Ah_Yup

Well, I don’t support this guy at all but China is more rival or frenemy than enemy. We are not at war and in fact have relatively cordial relations and do an enormous amount of mutually profitable trade with them. Treason has a very definite meaning that involves aiding somebody with which there are active hostilities.

Not that I think it’s treason but this nation executed the Rosenbergs for secrets given to the USSR while we were allies with them during WWII. I believe Jonathan Pollard received a life sentence for secrets given to Israel. Yes, China and the US aren’t sworn enemies.

72 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:31am

re: #64 Ah_Yup

Well, I don’t support this guy at all but China is more rival or frenemy than enemy. .

Our “frenemy” has been actively hacking our government and White House servers for the last 4 years.

73 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:39am

Ahem:

241 Decatur Deb6/09/2013 1:46:24 pm PDT

re: #228 Killgore Trout

Yeah, the Julian Assange/Bradley Manning crowd is pretty excited about their new hero.

There is too much BS about this guy. Anyone who pimps him as the new Daniel Ellsberg is going to come out looking like a doof. (Most of them won’t realize it, though.)

74 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:43am

re: #61 LWNJ

I don’t support giving classified documents to China, but you’d have a hard time with a treason case because of the “adhering to their enemies” clause. Since we’re not at war with China, they’d probably not be considered enemies by the courts.

Let’s not go into the “testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act” difficulty.

Agreed with part one, but he’s admitting that he’s committed these acts in various media outlets.

But if you’re the DOJ prosecuting this case, you’ll prosecute using charges other than treason that can be easier to secure convictions for.

75 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:44am

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Can he be charged for Treason now?

No. We’re not at war with China. Espionage, however, is a very legitimate charge for him.

76 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:21:52am

re: #51 erik_t

He is disclosing the nature of acts of warfare undertaken by the United States to the nation against which the United States is acting, thus aiding in their defense against future such acts. I would argue it quite rigorously meets the Constitutional definition.

True, but wouldn’t espionage charges have a greater chance of sticking?

77 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:22:28am

re: #70 Kragar

I just don’t fucking know WTF is wrong with people anymore.

Congressman Demands Obama Apologize To Oklahoma For Investing In Climate Change Research

Right after you apologize for the Tea Party’s existence, sir. What a patently stupid thing to say. Oklahoma? Throw this clown out please.

78 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:22:42am

re: #75 William Barnett-Lewis

No. We’re not at war with China. Espionage, however, is a very legitimate charge for him.

And Greenwald has admitted to being a co-conspirator.

79 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:23:10am
80 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:24:20am

re: #56 Dr Lizardo

An acquaintance of mine has gone full-metal wingnut since 2008; she’s intolerable to speak with.

I told her about eight months beforehand that Obama was going to be elected - my political instincts - and furthermore, he’d be a two-termer. She laughed, saying (and I quote) “Please. America will never, ever elect a n****r as President.”

Now she’s full-on, foaming at the mouth batshit crazy, spouting the most insane and risible conspiracy theories. It’s utterly revolting.

And just think, post-2016 if his health holds up there will be lots of photo ops featuring “former President Obama” at various events to keep their teeth on edge for decades afterwards.

81 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:24:55am

re: #79 Vicious Babushka

I have to admit, I was actually thinking this when it was reported he was hiding out in Hong Kong. I mean Assenge fled to Ecuador’s embassy I believe.

82 Locker  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:25:00am

I think the guy is an attention whore who’s not much different than those who commit crimes just to see their name in print. This isn’t about secrets, the world or national security… it’s about Mr. Snowden. Personal opinion of course.

83 LWNJ  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:25:05am

re: #74 lawhawk

Agreed with part one, but he’s admitting that he’s committed these acts in various media outlets.

But if you’re the DOJ prosecuting this case, you’ll prosecute using charges other than treason that can be easier to secure convictions for.

Yes, exactly. But I don’t think admitting in various media outlets is enough, since the language is “confession in open court.” (And I haven’t seen corroboration of this story, and Showden has already proved that he … aggrandizes … stories. I’m not a lawyer, but I think one would want to see the evidence, not the twitter feed, before deciding what charges to prefer.)

84 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:25:13am

re: #64 Ah_Yup

Welcome, hatchling.

85 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:25:47am

re: #79 Vicious Babushka

Heh. Once he no longer has any useful information, he’d better hire a food taster before trying any more dim sum…

86 Locker  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:25:55am

re: #84 wrenchwench

Welcome, hatchling.

And again

87 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:25:56am

Again with this shit?

GOP Congressman: Pregnancy Rate From Rape Is ‘Very Low’

Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ) claimed Wednesday that the rate of pregnancy from rape is “very low” during a House Judiciary Committee mark-up of his legislation to ban abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy.

“The incidence of rape resulting in pregnancy are very low,” Franks said, as quoted by the Washington Post.

88 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:26:27am

re: #80 Feline Fearless Leader

And just think, post-2016 if his health holds up there will be lots of photo ops featuring “former President Obama” at various events to keep their teeth on edge for decades afterwards.

Just wait till the first Obama daughter gets married, graduates college, or has a child. The blind hatred that this man has inspired is just sad. Greenwald whines about people who blindly idolize POTUS. He’s conspicuously silent on people who hate him and his family for mundane reasons such as his wife championing better nutrition.

89 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:26:28am

re: #80 Feline Fearless Leader

And just think, post-2016 if his health holds up there will be lots of photo ops featuring “former President Obama” at various events to keep their teeth on edge for decades afterwards.

Waiting for the photo of ex-President Obama showing President Clinton which desk drawer has the stapler refills, now.

90 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:26:43am

re: #87 Kragar

Again with this shit?

GOP Congressman: Pregnancy Rate From Rape Is ‘Very Low’

Arizona’s finest.

91 LWNJ  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:26:44am

re: #87 Kragar

Again with this shit?

GOP Congressman: Pregnancy Rate From Rape Is ‘Very Low’

Pregnancy rate from sex (once) is “very low” — about 2-3%.

92 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:26:53am

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Rosenbergs were found guilty under the Espionage Act. Like the Rosenbergs, Pollard wasn’t convicted of treason, but entered guilty plea for charges relating to espionage (Espionage Act).

That’s what’s likely going to happen here. The DOJ will prosecute using the Espionage Act, and not the Constitutional crime of treason (Art III, Sec. 3).

93 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:26:54am

I gave away secrets to a foreign authoritarian power because I think our freely elected government is an authoritarian power!

Plus I’m a narcissist and this proves I’m one of the most important people on the planet.

94 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:27:05am
95 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:27:26am

re: #87 Kragar

Again with this shit?

GOP Congressman: Pregnancy Rate From Rape Is ‘Very Low’

They really need to give Republicans that chip that Cartman had in the South Park movie. If they say rape, they get shocked.

96 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:27:53am
97 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:28:02am

re: #76 Lidane

True, but wouldn’t espionage charges have a greater chance of sticking?

Probably. I don’t much care under which legitimate legal basis he’s thrown in a little concrete box.

98 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:28:26am

re: #92 lawhawk

Rosenbergs were found guilty under the Espionage Act. Like the Rosenbergs, Pollard wasn’t convicted of treason, but entered guilty plea for charges relating to espionage (Espionage Act).

That’s what’s likely going to happen here. The DOJ will prosecute using the Espionage Act, and not the Constitutional crime of treason (Art III, Sec. 3).

Thanks for the details. My broadpoint though was it doesn’t matter who he dislosed information to. Could be an ally, whatever you want to classify China as, or a huge enemy.

99 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:28:29am
100 Ah_Yup  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:28:50am

re: #72 Dr. Matt

Indeed, and we splutter and act all kinds of outraged at such things do we not? To do some devil’s advocacy a bit part of Snowdon’s point is apparently to point out hypocrisy on the part of the US.

Now here in the real world most of us understand all of the world’s intelligence agencies are engaged in this. More likely than not MI6 and Mossad hack into some American secrets as well.

101 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:28:56am

Wonder what Mitt Romney thinks of Snowden after all the saber-rattling he did on China in the primaries and GE.

102 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:29:24am

re: #99 Vicious Babushka

I give up. I fucking give up.

103 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:29:33am

DERP

104 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:29:35am

re: #64 Ah_Yup

Well, I don’t support this guy at all but China is more rival or frenemy than enemy. We are not at war and in fact have relatively cordial relations and do an enormous amount of mutually profitable trade with them. Treason has a very definite meaning that involves aiding somebody with which there are active hostilities.

Here’s the legal definition of treason:

Oran’s Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as “…[a]…citizen’s actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation].” In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aiding or involved by such an endeavor.

There’s no mention of “active hostilities.”

105 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:29:54am

re: #80 Feline Fearless Leader

And just think, post-2016 if his health holds up there will be lots of photo ops featuring “former President Obama” at various events to keep their teeth on edge for decades afterwards.

Oh definitely. President Obama will be driving them insane for decades, hopefully.

Sweet.

106 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:29:55am

re: #99 Vicious Babushka

Obama will make Tea Partiers wear stupid hats…

OH SHIT! ITS ALREADY BEGUN!

107 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:30:12am

re: #99 Vicious Babushka

I wonder what “two steps away” or “three steps away” looks like.

//

108 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:31:11am

re: #99 Vicious Babushka

Image: Jesus_facepalm.jpg

109 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:31:16am

re: #107 Bulworth

I wonder what “two steps away” or “three steps away” looks like.

//

Obama grows a mustache.// Seriously I wish people would stop talking about the Nazis as if they didn’t murder millions of people. We cheapen the memories of the dead by making trivial comparisons.

110 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:31:18am

re: #93 Romantic Heretic

You shouldn’t trust the government with secrets. You should trust Redditors who are totally okay with creepshots, doxing as bullying, and the occasional bout of rape apologism. Zero chance they’ll abuse their power or exercise a personal agenda.

111 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:31:38am

From the SCMP article:

“I’m very grateful for the support of the public,” he said. “But I ask that they act in their interest - save their money for letters to the government that breaks the law and claims it noble.

“The reality is that I have acted at great personal risk to help the public of the world, regardless of whether that public is American, European, or Asian.”

So he’s not an American Hero, he’s a World Hero, in his own mind.

He sacrifices all, and asks only letters from the rest of us. So weird.

112 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:31:43am
113 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:32:22am

re: #100 Ah_Yup

Indeed, and we splutter and act all kinds of outraged at such things do we not? To do some devil’s advocacy a bit part of Snowdon’s point is apparently to point out hypocrisy on the part of the US.

It’s the world we live in. One would be obtuse and naive not to believe our country is involved in hacking into China. One would be even more obtuse and naive to be outraged against such actions. And finally, one would be a fucking criminal traitor to reveal such details to China. There is no “devil’s advocacy a bit part of Snowdon’s point”. EVER. He’s a traitor and a lowlife criminal.

114 BroncD  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:33:06am

re: #56 Dr Lizardo

How were you ever friends with such a person, if you don’t mind me asking?

115 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:33:11am

Whenever there have been major extended conflicts in the past the executive branch and the agencies it oversees have been granted extraordinary powers and abilities when dealing with foreign anything(s.) This is one of the reasons we have an executive branch.

That said, it’s been nearly 12 years and it’s time to expire the extraordinary powers and get back to fully constitutional business as usual across the board.

116 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:33:18am

re: #104 Charles Johnson

US Constitution Article III, Section 3:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

US Code - 18 USC 2381:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

117 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:33:47am

re: #59 Dr. Matt

Tough call for the teatards; do they support communist China and their fanboy Snowden or the US government?

I suspect we’re going to see a lot of this.

Youtube Video

118 BroncD  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:33:59am

re: #110 The Ghost of a Flea

You forgot “women should be in the kitchen” jokes.

119 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:34:56am

re: #114 BroncD

How were you ever friends with such a person, if you don’t mind me asking?

She wasn’t crazy beforehand; a bit eccentric to be sure, but the racism never emerged until Obama ran for President and was elected. It must’ve been very deeply ingrained, and she kept it concealed well. I knew her from college.

120 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:35:34am
121 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:35:56am

re: #116 lawhawk

US Constitution Article III, Section 3:

US Code - 18 USC 2381:

However, Congress has, at times, passed statutes creating related offenses that punish conduct which undermines the government or the national security, such as sedition in the 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, or espionage and sedition in the 1917 Espionage Act, which do not require the testimony of two witnesses and have a much broader definition than Article Three treason. For example, some well-known spies have been convicted of espionage rather than treason.

122 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:36:20am

re: #116 lawhawk

Beat me to it.

123 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:37:34am

Snowden: “The US has been hacking you for years.”

Chinese IT Security: “No shit, roundeyes.”

124 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:39:41am

re: #121 Dr. Matt

Absolutely, and as you’ll note above (in comment 19 and 92 , I indicated that the DOJ would likely prosecute under the Espionage Act rather than on the treason charge since treason is much more difficult to secure a conviction with.

125 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:40:50am
126 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:41:02am
127 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:41:41am
128 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:41:41am

re: #116 lawhawk

A lot depends on the definition of “enemy,” I suppose, and where you put China on that sliding scale. But again, no mention of “active hostilities.”

129 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:41:58am

re: #124 lawhawk

Also less inflammatory.

130 Kragar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:42:37am

Rep. Stockman: Obama’s Election a ‘Scam’

When Deace asked him about the Senate immigration reform bill, which he called “Scamnesty,” Stockman thought he was referring to Obama’s election and suggested that the president won due to voter fraud in the uncontested Democratic primary: “Which scam? You mean his election? Is that what you’re talking about? Where you had 120 percent people voting in the primary in just patriotic precincts?”

131 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:42:54am

re: #125 stabby

If you want to discuss that subject, please do it elsewhere.

132 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:43:14am

re: #128 Charles Johnson

A lot depends on the definition of “enemy,” I suppose, and where you put China on that sliding scale. But again, no mention of “active hostilities.”

Per my first comment, there are lots of definitions. He’ traitor enough for a pub discussion.

133 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:43:56am

The most likely charge (and this is based on what we know so far, is that Snowden would be violating 18 USC 798, which is the disclosure of classified information.

(a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—
(1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or
(2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or
(3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or
(4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

Today’s revelations about the NSA hacking against Chinese computers is a violation of section 3. Previously, Snowden’s actions violated sections 1 and possibly 2.

134 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:43:57am

Jobs like these need more thorough background checks.

Libertarians like these are rarely quiet about their beliefs.

135 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:44:28am

There are enough territorial and trade disputes leftover from the WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, and Burma to still characterize China an enemy, even if in name only.

136 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:44:30am

also, allow me to cheer everybody up


buzzfeed.com

137 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:45:38am

re: #134 SpaceJesus

Jobs like these need more thorough background checks.

Libertarians like these are rarely quiet about their beliefs.

138 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:45:40am

re: #135 Randall Gross

There are enough territorial and trade disputes leftover from the WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Burma to still characterize China an enemy, even if only in name only.

Quick, name a retail corporation that is trading with the enemy.

139 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:45:58am

re: #128 Charles Johnson

Which is why I prefaced my comments about treason as “… bordering on treason”. He’s violated the Espionage Act and 18 USC 798 (among others) is the most likely path for a prosecution.

140 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:00am

re: #136 SpaceJesus

also, allow me to cheer everybody up

buzzfeed.com

Allow me to be Debby Downer: Buzzfeed won’t get another click of mine until they clean house. Not even for cute animals.

141 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:21am

re: #135 Randall Gross

And Japan. And Russia.

142 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:23am

re: #137 Gus

“have you ever said the name ‘ron paul or rand paul’ without rolling your eyes?”

143 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:33am

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Walmart

144 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:38am

re: #134 SpaceJesus

Jobs like these need more thorough background checks.

Libertarians like these are rarely quiet about their beliefs.

Depends on exactly what his clearance was. Secret? I get a deeper check when I buy a gun. Top Secret? FBI interviews everyone they can find. Top Secret/Compartmentalized? More than you’ll ever want to go through.

145 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:45am

THIS IS SO DERPIN DUMB

146 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:46:54am

re: #141 lawhawk

Indeed.

147 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:47:34am

re: #143 Randall Gross

Walmart

Why do you hate cheap tubesocks?

148 Randall Gross  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:48:31am

re: #147 Decatur Deb

Why do you hate cheap tubesocks?

It’s actually a love hate kinda thing.

149 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:49:05am

re: #145 Vicious Babushka

THIS IS SO DERPIN DUMB

Because it takes a hell of a yard sale to launch a B52.

150 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:49:24am
151 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:49:32am

re: #145 Vicious Babushka

“Lets go back to the roads we had in 1913.”

152 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:50:23am

re: #151 jaunte

“Lets go back to the roads we had in 1913.”

“Let’s bring back JRRBS like we used to have at Triangle Shirtwaist Factory!”

153 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:51:05am

re: #150 NJDhockeyfan

As I said, this is why you wait before one tries to make Snowden the next Ellsburg or even Assenge.

154 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:51:22am

re: #151 jaunte

“Lets go back to the roads we had in 1913.”

This time in 1913, the first coast-to-coast road didn’t yet exist.

155 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:51:30am

re: #145 Vicious Babushka

THIS IS SO DERPIN DUMB

Because WW2 totally could have been funded with yard sales and church potlucks.

156 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:52:50am
157 teleskiguy  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:53:06am

In my estimation there’s been some excellent reporting at LGF regarding this whole NSA snafu. I’ve trusted LGF for a long time, and coming here is a breath of fresh air compared to all the bullshit coming from the news. I remember when that Greenwald guy put the story out, I came to this site and Charles is calling bullshit. And I thought to myself, yeah, Greenwald is reporting on Patriot Act stuff, stuff as a society we’ve been dealing with for well over a decade(maybe longer), and even more so after 9/11. But now people are screaming and shit. But LGF does the reporting nonetheless. Keep up the good work!

Oh, and this Snowdon guy? What a fucking loser!

158 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:53:12am

re: #154 erik_t

This time in 1913, the first coast-to-coast road didn’t yet exist.

BUT THEY HAD TEH MIGHTY RAILROADS!!!1!!

159 LWNJ  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:53:22am

You know, I haven’t heard anyone mention Benghazi in just days. I guess every cloud does have a silver lining.

160 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:53:25am

re: #156 Gus

Giving secrets to Chinese is ‘ballsy’?

Well, yes. Quite.

Among other things.

161 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:53:28am
162 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:53:32am

Okay, you remember yesterday when I was arguing over whether what Snowden did was treason versus just being a dumbass? I said I would be the first to throw the T word at him if he turned out to actually be a traitor. I was wrong; I wasn’t the first. But I will definitely use that word now.

163 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:54:08am

re: #159 LWNJ

You know, I haven’t heard anyone mention Benghazi in just days. I guess every cloud does have a silver lining.

No, BENGHAZI!!!1!!!!! is Teh Eternal Derp, THERE IS ALWAYS BENGHAZI.

164 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:55:11am

That article at South China Morning Post is now accessible again: Edward Snowden: US Government Has Been Hacking Hong Kong and China for Years | South China Morning Post

In a frank hour-long interview, the 29-year-old, who US authorities have confirmed is now the subject of a criminal case, said he was neither a hero nor a traitor and that:

%%LIST=US National Security Agency’s controversial Prism programme extends to people and institutions in Hong Kong and mainland China;
The US is exerting “bullying” diplomatic pressure on Hong Kong to extradite him;
Hong Kong’s rule of law will protect him from the US;
He is in constant fear for his own safety and that of his family.%%

Snowden has been in Hong Kong since May 20 when he fled his home in Hawaii to take refuge here, a move which has been questioned by many who believe the city cannot protect him.

“People who think I made a mistake in picking HK as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality,” he said.

Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.

One of the targets in the SAR, according to Snowden, was Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city. The documents also point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets.

Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.

“We hack network backbones - like huge internet routers, basically - that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said.

“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”

Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.

“Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.”

Since the shocking revelations a week ago, Snowden has been vilified as a defector but also hailed by supporters such as WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange.

“I’m neither traitor nor hero. I’m an American,” he said, adding that he was proud to be an American. “I believe in freedom of expression. I acted in good faith but it is only right that the public form its own opinion.”

How dramatic! The US is WILLING TO USE ANY MEANS!

Up to and including DIPLOMATIC INTIMIDATION!

Man, that is diabolical. No wonder he’s so afraid.

165 simoom  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:55:31am

I’m assuming this is a mirror of the scmp article.

Sounds like he’s clearly trying to connect promises of future revelations to his extradition:

uschinareport.com

He said: “I heard today from a reliable source that the United States government is trying to bully the Hong Kong government into extraditing me before the local government can learn of this [the US National Security Agency hacking people in Hong Kong]. The US government will do anything to prevent me from getting this into the public eye, which is why they are pushing so hard for extradition.”

“People who think I made a mistake in picking HK as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality,” he said.

“We hack network backbones - like huge internet routers, basically - that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said.

“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”

Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.

“Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.”

“Unfortunately, the US government is now bullying the Hong Kong government to prevent me from continuing my work,” he said.

“I do not currently feel safe due to the pressure the US government is applying to Hong Kong, but I feel that Hong Kong itself has a strong civil tradition that whistle-blowers should not fear.”

“Things are very difficult for me in all terms, but speaking truth to power is never without risk,” he said. “It has been difficult, but I have been glad to see the global public speak out against these sorts of systemic violations of privacy.

“All I can do is rely on my training and hope that world governments will refuse to be bullied by the United States into persecuting people seeking political refuge.”

Asked if he had been offered asylum by the Russian government, he said: “My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power”.

“The reality is that I have acted at great personal risk to help the public of the world, regardless of whether that public is American, European, or Asian.”

166 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:56:14am

re: #164 Charles Johnson

That article at South China Morning Post is now accessible again: Edward Snowden: US Government Has Been Hacking Hong Kong and China for Years | South China Morning Post

How dramatic! The US is WILLING TO USE ANY MEANS!

Up to and including DIPLOMATIC INTIMIDATION!

Man, that is diabolical. No wonder he’s so afraid.

I feel so sad for him. Let me go get my tiny violin to play.

////

167 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:56:58am

re: #145 Vicious Babushka

Kept all of their earnings, except for the part where you paid poll taxes, school taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, tariffs, sales taxes, and in some states, income taxes, or all of the above.

Oh, and at that point in 1913, highways were frequently tolled too.

168 calochortus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:57:35am

re: #134 SpaceJesus

Jobs like these need more thorough background checks.

Libertarians like these are rarely quiet about their beliefs.

Years ago I knew someone who was later convicted for having sold secrets (for a surprisingly small amount of money) to the Soviets back when he was a clerk in the military. He was, when I knew him, a Rush Limbaugh conservative. I don’t know if he considered himself a Libertarian, but I always had the impression he thought he was just a bit cleverer than everyone else in the room. Apparently he wasn’t.
I wouldn’t be hugely surprised if Snowden fell into the category of thinking himself clever rather than having a deeply seated love of Freedom.

169 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:58:25am

re: #167 lawhawk

Kept all of their earnings, except for the part where you paid poll taxes, school taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, tariffs, sales taxes, and in some states, income taxes, or all of the above.

Oh, and at that point in 1913, highways were frequently tolled too.

But hey, don’t let that get in the way of a good wingnut meme!

170 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:58:48am

re: #169 Vicious Babushka

But hey, don’t let that get in the way of a good wingnut meme!

The derp must flow.

171 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:59:03am

The dreaded diplomatic intimidation.

And he’s saying this in a country that executes dissenters and brutally crushes protests.

172 EPR-radar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:59:03am

re: #166 Targetpractice

I feel so sad for him. Let me go get my tiny violin to play.

////

What a malignant narcissist Snowden is.

If he thinks this kind of crap is going to help the post 9/11 civil liberties situation in the US, he is seriously delusional.

173 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:59:45am

re: #168 calochortus

He’s in China. He isn’t clever.

174 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 11:59:48am

re: #171 Charles Johnson

The dreaded diplomatic intimidation.

And he’s saying this in a country that executes dissenters and brutally crushes protests.

Well, you know, at least China is civilized. They use tanks to suppress their dissent instead of drones.///

175 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:00:03pm
“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”

He sounds very Chinese.

176 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:00:30pm

re: #171 Charles Johnson

Image: Tianasquare.jpg

177 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:01:46pm

re: #172 EPR-radar

What a malignant narcissist Snowden is.

If he thinks this kind of crap is going to help the post 9/11 civil liberties situation in the US, he is seriously delusional.

I’m not sure whether he’s narcissistic or naive, but if he thinks that the governments of the world aren’t doing the same or worse than he’s alleging the US is doing, then he’s out his fucking gourd. Really, I think at this point the only thing that hasn’t stopped Beijing from grabbing his ass off the street is the worry of what the US would do in response.

178 AntonSirius  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:01:55pm

re: #159 LWNJ

You know, I haven’t heard anyone mention Benghazi in just days. I guess every cloud does have a silver lining.

Obama’s cunning plan is proceeding as intended. How do you think Snowden got the BAH job in the first place?

179 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:02:01pm

re: #174 thedopefishlives

Well, you know, at least China is civilized. They use tanks to suppress their dissent instead of drones.///

I believe they actually use tanks to compress their dissent.

180 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:02:07pm

re: #175 jaunte

He sounds very Chinese.

Or maybe like Tom Tuttle from Tacoma.

181 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:02:55pm

re: #176 lawhawk

Image: Tianasquare.jpg

Some day those four tanks will be there, rusting, in front of a bronze statue of the kid. Optimist, I am.

182 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:03:28pm

re: #168 calochortus

Years ago I knew someone who was later convicted for having sold secrets (for a surprisingly small amount of money) to the Soviets back when he was a clerk in the military. He was, when I knew him, a Rush Limbaugh conservative. I don’t know if he considered himself a Libertarian, but I always had the impression he thought he was just a bit cleverer than everyone else in the room. Apparently he wasn’t.
I wouldn’t be hugely surprised if Snowden fell into the category of thinking himself clever rather than having a deeply seated love of Freedom.

Sounds like Robert Hannsen the FBI guy who spied for the Soviets and later Russians not out of love for their nation state’s ideology but because he thought himself to be smarter and sly than anyone else. I forget but I think Aldrich Ames had similar motivations. Heck exempting the Rosenbergs most of the American spies I can think of didn’t do so out of ideology. Ego plays a big role.

183 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:04:20pm
184 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:04:23pm
185 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:04:24pm

So, does the Guardian start backing away from Greenwald at some point due to what appears to be aiding and abetting?

Helping to break a domestic whistleblowing scandal would appear to be one thing. But in a day or two this has morphed into international espionage, and that is a totally different kettle of fish.

Per the wingnut/moonbat convergence this is not surprising since it is operating along a different axis than a lot of the other politics. This is more pro-government/anti-government split than a right-left split.

186 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:05:09pm

re: #172 EPR-radar

What a malignant narcissist Snowden is.

If he thinks this kind of crap is going to help the post 9/11 civil liberties situation in the US, he is seriously delusional.

That’s what pisses me off aside from this new development most about him. We do need to have a discussion on that issue. This guy hasn’t helped that. He discredits people who want to have a rational discussion on the issue and that’s why any true civil libertarian shouldn’t see Snowden as a hero.

187 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:05:15pm

re: #179 erik_t

I believe they actually use tanks to compress their dissent.

That one made me laugh at my desk, well done.

188 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:05:36pm

re: #184 Gus

Snowden acts like a puppet operated by Chinese intelligence.

189 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:05:47pm

re: #185 Feline Fearless Leader

Greenwald may get to live in the US again after all…in a Supermax facility.

190 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:06:43pm
191 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:06:52pm

re: #183 darthstar

It’s actually more accurate to say that Judas’ treason of Christ is more an indictment of capitalism and greed than socialism. After all, he got silver for doing so. Some people see socialism in everything they don’t like I suppose though. Like Boykin, he sees this current story as proof of a Marxist conspiracy even though this program was initiated in the Bush years.

192 calochortus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:07:31pm

re: #182 HappyWarrior

Sounds like Robert Hannsen the FBI guy who spied for the Soviets and later Russians not out of love for their nation state’s ideology but because he thought himself to be smarter and sly than anyone else. I forget but I think Aldrich Ames had similar motivations. Heck exempting the Rosenbergs most of the American spies I can think of didn’t do so out of ideology. Ego plays a big role.

It’s probably pretty common-especially when you add in the “I’m not appreciated properly” to the equation. The guy I knew had a really nice wife-I couldn’t figure out why in the world she married him.

193 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:07:42pm

re: #188 jaunte

Snowden acts like a puppet operated by Chinese intelligence.

That’s probably why he went there and not somewhere else.

195 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:07:53pm

re: #145 Vicious Babushka

Please spare us this stupidity. This is why i don’t Twitter and REALLY don’t want or need to see it reposted here.

A simple statement on your part that “there is a ton of dumb shit on Twitter” is more than sufficient…

196 erik_t  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:09:07pm

re: #195 Sol Berdinowitz

Truthfully, your complaining about the posting of dumb twitter stuff has grown nearly as tiresome as the quite-tiresome posting of dumb twitter stuff.

Scroll on by.

197 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:09:29pm

re: #183 darthstar

Gov. Jan Brewer Growing Socialism in Arizona Now, Just Like Judas Did to Jesus

Jan Brewer has “caved” into all the retirees in Arizona with AHC and is now being thrown to the wolves.

Fair play, I say…

198 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:09:47pm

re: #184 Gus

Indeed, that seems to the theme to his who little tantrum to date, that this is some sort of vendetta against the government, acted out by a middle-aged man with the mental maturity of a angry teenager.

199 jaunte  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:09:50pm

Metacomplaint.

200 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:10:43pm

re: #195 Sol Berdinowitz

Stop whining.

201 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:10:54pm

re: #196 erik_t

Truthfully, your complaining about the posting of dumb twitter stuff has grown nearly as tiresome as the quite-tiresome posting of dumb twitter stuff.

Scroll on by.

Actually, your complaining about the complaining about the posting…

202 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:11:23pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

Actually, your complaining about the complaining about the posting…

My brain is about to suffer a stack overflow.

203 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:13:08pm
204 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:14:19pm

re: #200 Vicious Babushka

Stop whining.

stop posting that shit. it is stupid beyond discussion

205 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:14:31pm

nbcnews.com

Hmm, let’s see how people, government, and tech companies deal with what is actually an issue - theft of smartphones and tablets.

A technical “kill switch” option that disables the phone might be part of it. But a half-assed, or poorly protected, implementation will simply be a hacker’s dream. Imagine the chaos and uproar that can be caused by arbitrarily disabling a large number of devices would cause.

206 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:16:37pm

re: #203 Lidane

At this point, short of having proof of aiding and abetting, that would just be a colossal mistake. Whether we wish to admit it or not, Greenwald still enjoys the protection of being a journalist when it comes to criminal charges. All he has to do is tell the public that he’s being taken to court to shut him up and the screeching will begin.

207 Sionainn  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:17:58pm

re: #204 Sol Berdinowitz

stop posting that shit. it is stupid beyond discussion

Just a quick question…do you tell Charles to stop posting stuff from Twitter that comes from idiots?

208 calochortus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:18:08pm

re: #205 Feline Fearless Leader

nbcnews.com

Hmm, let’s see how people, government, and tech companies deal with what is actually an issue - theft of smartphones and tablets.

A technical “kill switch” option that disables the phone might be part of it. But a half-assed, or poorly protected, implementation will simply be a hacker’s dream. Imagine the chaos and uproar that can be caused by arbitrarily disabling a large number of devices would cause.

Actual call to local public radio station during a program about crime in San Francisco (as closely as I can recall the wording):

But if we insert a kill switch that will just be a way for the government to insert some of their own stuff on there so they’ll be able to listen in on our conversations and track our movements.

209 Lidane  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:18:19pm
210 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:18:43pm

re: #203 Lidane

Hm. A showboating ‘journalist’ vs. a showboating politician.

Can they both lose this one?

211 stabby  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:18:51pm

re: #165 simoom

I stopped reading at “I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality”.

I’m so sick of vainglorious assholes. Maybe Glen Beck can do a joint radio program with Edward Snowden. They can cry over America together.

Hell they can invite Michael Moore and make it a big party.

212 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:19:36pm

re: #210 makeitstop

Hm. A showboating ‘journalist’ vs. a showboating politician.

Can they both lose this one?

I honestly give up at this point. Bring on the meteor. Let’s just get it over with.

213 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:20:05pm

re: #209 Lidane

214 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:20:12pm

re: #209 Lidane

This is why the right wing outrage over this is so funny. Hannity and others like him were loudly defending Bush and telling critics of him to shut up but the second that it’s revealed that Obama did something that the Bush era Congresses gave him the legal power to do, they act like it’s proof taht Obama’s a tyrant. Sorry wingnuts, you can’t expand executive power and then act outraged when an executive outside your ideology uses it.

215 darthstar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:20:16pm
216 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:20:47pm

re: #206 Targetpractice

At this point, short of having proof of aiding and abetting, that would just be a colossal mistake. Whether we wish to admit it or not, Greenwald still enjoys the protection of being a journalist when it comes to criminal charges. All he has to do is tell the public that he’s being taken to court to shut him up and the screeching will begin.

And if he’s not charged the screeching will stop?

217 stabby  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:22:35pm

re: #202 thedopefishlives

My brain is about to suffer a stack overflow.

General protection fault or guru mediation error?

218 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:23:56pm

re: #207 Sionainn

Just a quick question…do you tell Charles to stop posting stuff from Twitter that comes from idiots?

There are some things that come from idiots that have a bearing on the discusssion, like from elected idiots or idiots who have an influence on our daily lives, but 99% of it is brinless drivel, not worth noting beyond the fact thtat there are idiots out there who find it worth teittering.

219 Gus  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:24:04pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

Actually, your complaining about the complaining about the posting…

Can you please stop complaining about the complaining about the complaining?

//

220 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:24:42pm

re: #202 thedopefishlives

My brain is about to suffer a stack overflow.

That is what results in you forgetting about Mrs Fish’s birthday or your anniversary.

And that white flaky stuff that falls from the sky between October and April (sometimes May) is referred to as “snow”.

221 Sionainn  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:25:36pm

re: #218 Sol Berdinowitz

There are some things that come from idiots that have a bearing on the discusssion, like from elected idiots or idiots who have an influence on our daily lives, but 99% of it is brinless drivel, not worth noting beyond the fact thtat there are idiots out there who find it worth teittering.

I would think that if Charles had a problem with it, he would have spoken to the people he didn’t want doing it. Just sayin’.

222 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:25:48pm

re: #220 Feline Fearless Leader

That is what results in you forgetting about Mrs Fish’s birthday or your anniversary.

And that white flaky stuff that falls from the sky between October and April (sometimes May) is referred to as “snow”.

Who’s the Mrs. Fish?

223 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:25:58pm

re: #219 Gus

Can you please stop complaining about the complaining about the complaining?

//

Those responsible about complaining about the complaining have been sacked. All the complaints have thus been replaced and redone at the last minute at great expense.
(queue lots o’llamas)

224 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:26:15pm

re: #219 Gus

Can you please stop complaining about the complaining about the complaining?

//

I could refer you to the Abuse Department, 12B.

225 EPR-radar  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:26:46pm

re: #223 Feline Fearless Leader

Those responsible about complaining about the complaining have been sacks. All the complaints have thus been replaced and redone at the last minute at great expense.
(queue lots o’llamas)

Moose!

226 Ah_Yup  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:28:09pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

I can’t find a single sourced that interprets that as anything other than specifying actions committed during a time of war. My understanding is that this is why the Rosenbergs were charged with violations of the espionage act rather than treason.

I agree that he is attempting to do harm to the United States and it sure seems traitorous but I don’t think it really meets the Constitutional level for treason.

227 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:28:19pm

re: #203 Lidane

For once, I agree with him.

228 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:28:26pm

re: #219 Gus

Those responsible have been sacked.

Those who were responsible for the sacking have themselves been sacked.

229 stabby  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:29:09pm
230 gunnison  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:29:19pm
I’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.

Because, under the law, treason only exists during a state of war;

The Treason Clause applies only to disloyal acts committed during times of war. Acts of dis-loyalty during peacetime are not considered treasonous under the Constitution.

Unless we’ve declared war on China since the last time I looked at the news, or them on us, it’s not treason.
I’m not arguing that what he did is legal, that would be crazy, but you asked a specific question, and it has a specific answer.

231 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:29:33pm

re: #228 lawhawk

Those responsible have been sacked.

Those who were responsible for the sacking have themselves been sacked.

Said no one at Booz, Allen.

232 stabby  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:30:36pm

Wow, that youtube’s sound plays a LONG time after its 48 seconds is up and plays the whole song.

233 teleskiguy  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:34:03pm
234 Ming  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:34:20pm

re: #29 Vicious Babushka

I guess now we know who picked up the tab for that hotel room.

In a similar vein (and obviously this is only speculation), I wonder how far back in time Snowden’s relationship goes with the Chinese. Are the Chinese targeting NSA analysts, giving then a rosy view of China’s “respect for press freedoms” (a view Snowden apparently has), enticing them to defect?

Of course, one expects that many nations do things like this, including us. But it would be interesting to know about Snowden’s prior contacts with foreign agents. As you observe, he may not have selected that hotel from expedia.com.

235 gunnison  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:34:28pm

re: #226 Ah_Yup

I agree that he is attempting to do harm to the United States and it sure seems traitorous but I don’t think it really meets the Constitutional level for treason.

Yes, I believe that is correct. Treason, as a legal crime, can only exist during a state of war under the Constitution.
And war can only exist if declared by Congress.

236 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:44:11pm

re: #226 Ah_Yup

I can’t find a single sourced that interprets that as anything other than specifying actions committed during a time of war. My understanding is that this is why the Rosenbergs were charged with violations of the espionage act rather than treason.

I agree that he is attempting to do harm to the United States and it sure seems traitorous but I don’t think it really meets the Constitutional level for treason.

Maybe not, but it meets the chat room definition.

/

237 steve_davis  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:17:49pm

Doesn’t actually meet the definition of treason, but I can’t believe there are still leftist assholes on Raw Story and Huffer that think this guy is a hero. By compromising us to the Chinese with this, he’s also possibly compromised any number of dissidents who may be using some of our hackery to communicate with likeminded folks off the official grid.

238 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:25:27pm

re: #164 Charles Johnson

How dramatic! The US is WILLING TO USE ANY MEANS!

Up to and including DIPLOMATIC INTIMIDATION!

Man, that is diabolical. No wonder he’s so afraid.

That sounds like the US is willing to go so far as to get very displeased.

This could escalate into the US writing a letter explaining how displeased it is.

239 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:25:34pm

re: #184 Gus

before or after Jesus spent 40 days in the Arizona desert?

240 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 1:28:41pm

re: #190 darthstar

241 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jun 12, 2013 2:45:37pm

re: #209 Lidane

What a fucking hypocrite.


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