Breaking: US Confirms Syria Used Chemical Weapons, Will Aid Opposition (Update: The Maverick Jumped the Gun)

US News • Views: 28,515

News of major significance, just breaking…

UPDATE at 6/13/13 2:18:00 pm
UPDATE at 6/13/13 2:26:15 pm
UPDATE at 6/13/13 2:28:53 pm

Here’s the official White House Statement on Use of Chemical Weapons in Syria.

Jump to bottom

245 comments
1 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:11:04pm
2 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:11:57pm
3 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:13:04pm
4 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:14:56pm

I’m really really not sure how I feel about aiding the Syrian opposition. Hard to know how much of it is media spin or bias, but they don’t really look a whole lot better than the Assad regime. And possibly a lot worse.

5 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:15:26pm
6 Single-handed sailor  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:15:41pm

This is a bad idea.

7 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:15:55pm

re: #6 Single-handed sailor

This is a bad idea.

No shit.

8 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:16:12pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

I’m really really not sure how I feel about aiding the Syrian opposition. Hard to know how much of it is media spin or bias, but they don’t really look a whole lot better than the Assad regime. And possibly a lot worse.

Yeah I know what you mean. I certainly don’t like the Assad government but I don’t know if the opposition is much better. As tough as it may sound especially with these reports of chemical weapons usage, it may prove prudent to stay out of this.

9 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:16:31pm


10 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:17:50pm
11 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:17:55pm

re: #5 Lidane

We don’t mind you blowing the fucking hell out of each other, chopping each other into bits, or setting each other on fire, but chemical weapons? Now you guys are taking it too far.
/

12 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:18:20pm
13 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:18:22pm

Officer Pepperspray take note.

14 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:18:37pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

I’m really really not sure how I feel about aiding the Syrian opposition. Hard to know how much of it is media spin or bias, but they don’t really look a whole lot better than the Assad regime. And possibly a lot worse.

The follow-up question would be: would it be better to have one nasty regime at internal peace instead of two nasty regimes engaged in a civil war? There sure doesn’t seem to be much indication that Assad could ever regain complete control of the entire country.

I think the answer to that question could reasonably be “yes”.

15 jaunte  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:19:51pm

Any chance of limiting our involvement to putting a bunch of craters in Syrian airstrips?

16 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:20:39pm

re: #15 jaunte

I assume that sort of thing is all we’re talking about. Libya-level involvement. Putting boots on the ground would be impossibly foolish.

17 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:21:32pm

re: #11 Kragar

We don’t mind you blowing the fucking hell out of each other, chopping each other into bits, or setting each other on fire, but chemical weapons? Now you guys are taking it too far.
/

Yeah, 93,000 people can die and it’s “meh.” Not sure why killing 150 people with sarin, horrible though it is, is supposed to cause more outrage than mass slaughter by conventional means on a giant scale.

18 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:21:44pm

re: #6 Single-handed sailor

re: #7 darthstar

On a humanitarian/moral level, we have no good options.

In COS, we have a mandatory evacuation now within city limits. Winds have picked up, and are going any number of variants North. Away from me, but this could suck in a real way.

19 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:21:46pm

re: #15 jaunte

Any chance of limiting our involvement to putting a bunch of craters in Syrian airstrips?

Only if we’re lucky.

20 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:21:47pm

re: #15 jaunte

Any chance of limiting our involvement to putting a bunch of craters in Syrian airstrips?

Sounds good in theory. Reality has proven differently.

21 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:22:10pm

re: #15 jaunte

Any chance of limiting our involvement to putting a bunch of craters in Syrian airstrips?

This is Obama, not Bush. The aid will be specific and controlled. No pallets of $100 bills to help fund or unregistered crates of weapons dropped in a field.

22 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:22:12pm

re: #16 erik_t

I assume that sort of thing is all we’re talking about. Libya-level involvement. Putting boots on the ground would be impossibly foolish.

When that happens, the nutters will find a new ZOMG BENGHAZI moment to latch on to, I’m sure.

23 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:22:48pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

Yeah, 93,000 people can die and it’s “meh.” Not sure why killing 150 people with sarin, horrible though it is, is supposed to cause more outrage than mass slaughter by conventional means on a giant scale.

Guessing it just has to do with arms treaties.

Sad, really sad.

24 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:23:12pm

re: #16 erik_t

I assume that sort of thing is all we’re talking about. Libya-level involvement. Putting boots on the ground would be impossibly foolish.

And from what I see from McCain whenever a situation like this arises, boots on the ground is exactly what he wants. Yet another reason to be glad that McCain failed in his bid for the presidency. Policywise, we need a smart middle ground between McCain’s INTERVENE ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME and the Paulian NO INTERVENTION EVER. Now, I think this president is somewhat close to a middle ground between the two but ideally I’d wish he’d be more but it’s a tough situation. You know damn well that the U.S government doesn’t want to watch idly by if Assad’s government kills thousands upon thousands of their own people.

25 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:24:08pm

re: #24 HappyWarrior

Problem is, with a situation like this, it ends up going from 0-100 in record time.

26 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:25:12pm

Maybe we could just provide intel—send Greenwald.

27 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:25:14pm

can’t the military just make Johnny Maverick an honorary MP or something because he sure does get off on the troops abroad motif

28 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:25:16pm
29 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:25:31pm

Did the Maverick jump the gun?

30 jaunte  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:25:38pm

White House: “the President has augmented the provision of non-lethal assistance to the civilian opposition”

31 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:25:48pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

Yeah, 93,000 people can die and it’s “meh.” Not sure why killing 150 people with sarin, horrible though it is, is supposed to cause more outrage than mass slaughter by conventional means on a giant scale.

It’s the nature of what it was I guess. It’s why people will criticize Truman for the A-Bomb on Nagasaki but ignore the fact that if Operation Downfall had happened that there would have been even more Japanese civilian deaths. Way I look at is the same, death is death. the Holocaust would still have been the genocide it was if the Germans had kept up their original plan of just shooting Jews rather than gassing them. It also bears to mind the old quote about the death of one being a tragedy but the death of a million being a mere statistic.
en.wikipedia.org

32 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:26:19pm

re: #25 ProTARDISLiberal

Problem is, with a situation like this, it ends up going from 0-100 in record time.

It’s frustrating as fuck. So in a way right now at least, I’m glad I failed the FSOT.

33 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:26:54pm
34 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:27:05pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Did the Maverick jump the gun?

Aid could consist solely of NBC gear, food and medicine.

35 jaunte  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:27:14pm
36 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:27:27pm

re: #33 Lidane

Oooh, did they just call McCain unreliable?

37 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:27:52pm
38 jaunte  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:28:07pm
“Following a deliberative review, our intelligence community assesses that the Assad regime has used chemical weapons, including the nerve agent sarin, on a small scale against the opposition multiple times in the last year. Our intelligence community has high confidence in that assessment given multiple, independent streams of information. The intelligence community estimates that 100 to 150 people have died from detected chemical weapons attacks in Syria to date; however, casualty data is likely incomplete. While the lethality of these attacks make up only a small portion of the catastrophic loss of life in Syria, which now stands at more than 90,000 deaths, the use of chemical weapons violates international norms and crosses clear red lines that have existed within the international community for decades. We believe that the Assad regime maintains control of these weapons. We have no reliable, corroborated reporting to indicate that the opposition in Syria has acquired or used chemical weapons.”
39 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:28:16pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

Yeah, 93,000 people can die and it’s “meh.” Not sure why killing 150 people with sarin, horrible though it is, is supposed to cause more outrage than mass slaughter by conventional means on a giant scale.

You can accidently, or “accidently”, shoot innocents with a rifle. Wars are messy, shit happens, my aim sucks, look the other way. However, by their very nature, chemical weapons are indiscriminant. There is some justification for treating them in a non-identical manner, although I’m not sure about this specific case.

40 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:28:59pm

re: #36 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Oooh, did they just call McCain unreliable?

Nope. #33 refers to no use of CW by Syria opposition.

41 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:29:28pm

with McCain’s statement hitting the streets before the administration, makes me wonder if the Obama Administration just connected some dots in the Foreign Affairs leakage areana

42 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:29:38pm

re: #36 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Oooh, did they just call McCain unreliable?

No, that’s actually saying the opposition doesn’t have chemical weapons.

43 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:30:09pm
44 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:30:40pm

If something does happen, and I need to evacuate (very unlikely), my plan is to go to Denver. I will go to CO 24 to Limon, then go back west on I-70 into the city.

45 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:31:22pm

re: #43 Lidane

Knew it then. Not bragging but I am glad to have realized early on that 2008 McCain was not 2000 McCain. Glad to have also seen early on that Palin was an anti-intellectual dolt who was chosen for the sole purposes of appeasing the right wing base who never trusted McCain.

46 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:32:49pm

re: #44 ProTARDISLiberal

If something does happen, and I need to evacuate (very unlikely), my plan is to go to Denver. I will go to CO 24 to Limon, then go back west on I-70 into the city.

Check your gas.

47 engineer cat  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:33:17pm

Republican Leaders Condemn Obama Plan For Syrian Intervention

total lack of knowledge about what that plan might turn out to be causing congressional staff members to work overtime on reasons to oppose it whatever it might turn out to be

48 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:33:23pm

Bachmann: ‘We Will Never Again Have a Republican President’ if Immigration Reform Passes

Bachmann decided to reach out to the reasonable folks over at WorldNetDaily in an effort to rally support for the effort, warning that if immigration reform passes, “we will never again have a Republican president” because the entire political power structure will forever fall under Democratic control and “you will never again be able to see our country return to its constitutional foundations”

What is the downside?

49 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:34:25pm


‘Dry microburst’ is a new one to me.

50 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:35:14pm

re: #48 Kragar

Bachmann: ‘We Will Never Again Have a Republican President’ if Immigration Reform Passes

Because you should draft legislation with the purpose of keeping your team in power, not based on what is good for the citizens of your country.

GFY crazyeyes.

51 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:35:16pm

re: #48 Kragar

Bachmann: ‘We Will Never Again Have a Republican President’ if Immigration Reform Passes

What is the downside?

Yeah so fuck people who want to be Americans right, Michelle? It’s all about your party being able to control things still. Maybe if your party weren’t condescending douches to immigrants, they’d vote for your party but no you decided to ignore one of George W. Bush’s few sensible ideas and go all Know-Nothing when he proposed immigration reform.

52 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:35:30pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

Bout .5 of a tank. That gets me a distance. And I have the money to buy more.

53 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:35:37pm

re: #47 engineer cat

Republican Leaders Condemn Obama Plan For Syrian Intervention

total lack of knowledge about what that plan might turn out to be causing congressional staff members to work overtime on reasons to oppose it whatever it might turn out to be

Why? The GOP will condemn Obama’s reaction because Obama is president. Constructing bafflegab to obscure this essential point shouldn’t require overtime from GOP apparatchiks —- they’ve certainly had enough practice by now to become proficient at it.

54 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:37:07pm

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

I don’t expect to though. Geography and wind patterns are on my side.

55 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:37:08pm

re: #50 erik_t

Because you should draft legislation with the purpose of keeping your team in power, not based on what is good for the citizens of your country.

GFY crazyeyes.

that’s pretty much her argument. The Republican Party’s power >>>>>>>> the best interests of the country. Frankly, I don’t care if it fucks her party. If that happens, so be it, they fucked themselves by wanting to be more like Joe Arpaio on immigration than George W. Bush. They’re the ones who nominated a guy for president who wanted to make life hell for illegal aliens so they’d “self-deport.” Tough shit GOP. You made your bed with immigrants by spitting on them and now you may have to deal with the political consequences of that.

56 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:37:17pm

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

Bout .5 of a tank. That gets me a distance. And I have the money to buy more.

If you end up needing to bug out, you won’t want to have to stop for gas, and traffic may be in unreasonable patterns. If you can fill up now, you should consider doing so.

57 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:37:40pm

re: #53 EPR-radar

Why? The GOP will condemn Obama’s reaction because Obama is president. Constructing bafflegab to obscure this essential point shouldn’t require overtime from GOP apparatchiks —- they’ve certainly had enough practice by now to become proficient at it.

Should have a Mad-Libs style GOP Bitch Generator by now. Just plug in the time, place and crisis. Probably an app for that.

58 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:38:18pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

No, that’s actually saying the opposition doesn’t have chemical weapons.

Oh, good. Well, sort of good.

59 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:38:21pm

re: #48 Kragar

Bachmann: ‘We Will Never Again Have a Republican President’ if Immigration Reform Passes

What is the downside?

The option of the Party moderating itself is unthinkable, of course.

60 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:39:05pm

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

Bout .5 of a tank. That gets me a distance. And I have the money to buy more.

Keep it topped up until the fire is out.

61 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:39:11pm

re: #59 wrenchwench

The option of the Party moderating itself is unthinkable, of course.

Why would they do that? They’re doing God’s will!
/

62 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:39:52pm

OT…but really, WTF WaPo?

The Secret Service planning document, which was provided to The Post by a person who is concerned about the amount of resources necessary for the trip, does not specify costs.

63 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:40:39pm

re: #59 wrenchwench

The option of the Party moderating itself is unthinkable, of course.

Nah Rush Limbaugh may say they’re RINOs and not real conservatives. We can’t have that, can we?

64 AntonSirius  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:40:50pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Did the Maverick jump the gun?

Let’s hope so

65 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:42:22pm

re: #62 blueraven

OT…but really, WTF WaPo?

Yes, Obdicut, the media has gotten aggressively incredibly somehow shittier in the last year.

66 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:43:00pm

re: #62 blueraven

oh yeah, nice to know that there are still a few ratfuckers left in the building

67 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:43:28pm

re: #62 blueraven

OT…but really, WTF WaPo?

The next right wing super-fake outrage, coming up.

This trip to Africa is incredibly dangerous for the President, but potentially has huge benefits.

68 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:44:37pm

re: #67 Charles Johnson

The next right wing super-fake outrage, coming up.

This trip to Africa is incredibly dangerous for the President, but potentially has huge benefits.

Bush never went to Africa…oh wait

69 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:44:51pm

re: #48 Kragar

Bachmann: ‘We Will Never Again Have a Republican President’ if Immigration Reform Passes

What is the downside?

Seriously. I’m not seeing the problem here.

70 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:45:19pm

re: #68 blueraven

Bush never went to Africa…oh wait

That was actually another one of Bush’s few positive things.

71 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:45:25pm

re: #66 piratedan

oh yeah, nice to know that there are still a few ratfuckers left in the building

Yes, I’m sure this ratfucker was also real ‘concerned’ about the costs of GW Bush’s African trips.

72 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:46:34pm

re: #69 Lidane

Seriously. I’m not seeing the problem here.

I don’t like immigration reform that does not have stiff employer sanctions, but this is a compelling point…

73 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:46:44pm

re: #71 EPR-radar

Doesn’t ratfucking make you a sex offender?

////

74 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:46:50pm

re: #69 Lidane

Seriously. I’m not seeing the problem here.

It’s worth noting that LBJ signed the CRA act knowing he’d lose the South because of it. Seriously if Bachmann expects immigrant families to give a shit that the GOP’s longterm prospects should mean more than their ability to assimilate easier into American society, then she’s even a greater lunatic than I thought she was.

75 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:47:39pm

re: #73 ProTARDISLiberal

Doesn’t ratfucking make you a sex offender?

////

IOKIYAR

It’s OK if you’re a Republican.

76 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:47:59pm

re: #62 blueraven

OT…but really, WTF WaPo?

Those costs are not driven by the ‘safari’. They are in line with the security effort made when Pres Clinton and his family came to Israel. We brought 3 Blackhawks into country on heavy lifters.

A tyrant would have just one “Tyranny Day”, like “The Purge”, when it would be OK to drop leakers off the Washington Monument.

77 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:49:56pm
78 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:50:15pm

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Those costs are not driven by the ‘safari’. They are in line with the security effort made when Pres Clinton and his family came to Israel. We brought 3 Blackhawks into country on heavy lifters.

A tyrant would have just one “Tyranny Day”, like “The Purge”, when it would be OK to drop leakers off the Washington Monument.

I’d rig up one of the catapults off an aircraft carriers and see how many times we could skip people off the reflecting pool.

79 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:50:19pm

I like how they get all puffy and outraged when Obama goes on vacation. Yeah because no president ever went on trips before Obama. Obama’s not allowed to enjoy himself at all in one of the most stressful jobs on the planet.

80 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:50:20pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Did the Maverick jump the gun?

Shoot first, take pants off later.

81 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:50:44pm
82 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:50:54pm

re: #80 darthstar

Shoot first, take pants off later.

NO ONE SAID WE WOULD HAVE TO WEAR PANTS!

83 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:51:15pm

re: #77 darthstar

I’m surprised they haven’t supported an invasion of Belgium to bring down the beer and chocolate costs. Quick someone tell Johnny or Lindsay that the Belgian PM did something they disapprove of.

84 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:51:22pm

re: #78 Kragar

I’d rig up one of the catapults off an aircraft carriers and see how many times we could skip people off the reflecting pool.

I think Disney is putting one of those in Orlando.

85 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:52:35pm
86 gwangung  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:52:55pm

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Those costs are not driven by the ‘safari’. They are in line with the security effort made when Pres Clinton and his family came to Israel. We brought 3 Blackhawks into country on heavy lifters.

You would think there things of strategic interest to the US on the continent….

87 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:53:55pm

re: #74 HappyWarrior

It’s worth noting that LBJ signed the CRA act knowing he’d lose the South because of it. Seriously if Bachmann expects immigrant families to give a shit that the GOP’s longterm prospects should mean more than their ability to assimilate easier into American society, then she’s even a greater lunatic than I thought she was.

What’s funny to me is the total lack of self-awareness on the GOP’s part here.

If you KNOW that demographics are shifting away from you and that any immigration reform would only doom you further, then shouldn’t that be a wake-up call that maybe your ideas (not the messaging, but the ideas themselves) are offensive to large swaths of people, and that maybe you should consider joining the modern world?

The fact that Bachmann — or anyone else — is trying to make this argument at all without any irony is crazy to me. WTF. Shouldn’t this be an incentive to try and change instead of doubling down on the stupid?

88 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:54:57pm

Looks like the Obama admin doesn’t want to talk about it openly, but they’re hedging about whether we’re providing arms to the rebels.

Shades of Afghanistan.

89 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:58:00pm

re: #87 Lidane

What’s funny to me is the total lack of self-awareness on the GOP’s part here.

If you KNOW that demographics are shifting away from you and that any immigration reform would only doom you further, then shouldn’t that be a wake-up call that maybe your ideas (not the messaging, but the ideas themselves) are offensive to large swaths of people, and that maybe you should consider joining the modern world?

The fact that Bachmann — or anyone else — is trying to make this argument at all without any irony is crazy to me. WTF. Shouldn’t this be an incentive to try and change instead of doubling down on the stupid?

I don’t know. I think they’re desperately afraid of offending their dwindling base and would rather continue to appease them rather than accept the reality of changing demographics. This is why I laugh when I hear people claim the GOP’s changing and becoming more “libertarian.” They’re not. If they were, there’s no way in hell that Ken Cuccinneli would have gotten nominated for governor here without a fight and there certainly would be no way that F.W Jackson would be nominated to be the Lt Governor. I think it will backfire big time on them in the end because despite what they believe, they’ve turned a lot of voters off and a simple “rebranding” won’t do it. They not only need a makeover but they need a personality change as well. In otherwords, instead of actually working hard to become less fat, they need the plastic surgery, regular exercise, and diet, and they don’t want to do that. They just want the plastic surgery.

90 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:58:31pm

re: #89 HappyWarrior

Steve King can’t win his general until he wins his primary.

91 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:00:31pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Did the Maverick jump the gun?

it’s what he does best…

92 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:00:50pm

re: #87 Lidane

What’s funny to me is the total lack of self-awareness on the GOP’s part here.

If you KNOW that demographics are shifting away from you and that any immigration reform would only doom you further, then shouldn’t that be a wake-up call that maybe your ideas (not the messaging, but the ideas themselves) are offensive to large swaths of people, and that maybe you should consider joining the modern world?

The fact that Bachmann — or anyone else — is trying to make this argument at all without any irony is crazy to me. WTF. Shouldn’t this be an incentive to try and change instead of doubling down on the stupid?

There is a chunk of the GOP establishment that realizes this —- its the reason there is any motion on immigration reform at all, as opposed to it quietly dying in the Senate.

However, the base will not accept this. The hot news over at RedState today is an anti-Rubio screed by Erick Erikson with well over 100 comments (an impressive number for RedState). Pass the popcorn.

93 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:01:07pm

re: #90 erik_t

Steve King can’t win his general until he wins his primary.

He’ll win the primary I bet but get trashed in the GE. That’s the thing. Republican politicians seem to care more and more about appeasing their primary voters rather than trying to bring new voters to their party. The message of social conservatism combined with government is evil and can’t be used to help people is one that will not work with millennials. They’re under the delusion that those voters will simply change their mind on hot button social issues like gay marriage, choice, etc but the fact of the matter is they won’t. It’s not just millenials that are responsible for the growth in pro SSM attitudes. Just like it’s not just immigrants or the children of them that support immigration reform.

94 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:02:08pm

Speaking of shifting demographics, this should go over well with the racist nutters:

95 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:02:12pm

re: #93 HappyWarrior

Not Steve King particularly. Just any random Republican politician. Their base is nutty, and one’s electability in the general does not matter at all if one can’t even get there.

96 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:02:58pm

re: #92 EPR-radar

There is a chunk of the GOP establishment that realizes this —- its the reason there is any motion on immigration reform at all, as opposed to it quietly dying in the Senate.

However, the base will not accept this. The hot news over at RedState today is an anti-Rubio screed by Erick Erikson with well over 100 comments (an impressive number for RedState). Pass the popcorn.

The establishment kind of gets it but then Rubio shows he doesn’t get by saying he’ll back out of any reform if same sex partners of people are helped by the legislation. That’s the problem. They can’t get over their pathetic anti gay prejudices because the idea of gays having equality is the one issue that the base and establishment share loads of common ground on. That and low taxes above all else.

97 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:03:36pm

re: #95 erik_t

Not Steve King particularly. Just any random Republican politician. Their base is nutty, and one’s electability in the general does not matter at all if one can’t even get there.

Oh yeah for sure.

98 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:03:44pm

re: #94 Lidane

Speaking of shifting demographics, this should go over well with the racist nutters:

Go Spurs.

99 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:04:45pm

re: #79 HappyWarrior

I like how they get all puffy and outraged when Obama goes on vacation. Yeah because no president ever went on trips before Obama. Obama’s not allowed to enjoy himself at all in one of the most stressful jobs on the planet.

Not a vacation. An official Presidential overseas trip. Just like recent trip to Israel. Just like any other President.

100 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:04:59pm

Hola.

101 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:05:02pm

re: #89 HappyWarrior

I just kinda wish that they would all go back home, immerse themselves in that Old Testament that they’re so fond of and let the rest of alone to get on with our lives with getting a job, finding someone to love and paying a few taxes so shit doesn’t fall down around our ears. Instead, we have to endure endless amounts of slut shaming, reimbursement of our tax dollars to corporations and being told that the Muslims, hipsters, gheys, jews, browns, commies, and ni*clangs are commin to get our white wimmen and eat all our t-bones.

Wish we could find something productive for these people to do, like dig a ditch or something so we can lay some cable or build a magrail.

102 erik_t  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:05:12pm

re: #99 blueraven

Not a vacation. An official Presidential overseas trip. Just like recent trip to Israel. Just like any other President.

Just like any other PresideBLACKITYBLACKITYBLACKITYBLACK

103 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:05:22pm

Brown Moses has a good summary:

104 sattv4u2  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:06:21pm

re: #98 HappyWarrior

Go Spurs.

LeBron will go off tonight (probably 32-36 point range) but hopefully at the detriment the others getting into the flow

105 gwangung  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:06:21pm

re: #103 ProTARDISLiberal

Brown Moses has a good summary:

Can’t disagree….

106 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:06:58pm
107 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:07:12pm

What I seriously do wonder about the GOP is how they seriously intend to get younger voters. I remember reading here on LGF a couple weeks back about a
Republican Congressman that young people should get behind higher rates on student loans because “personal responsibility is cool.” I am only a year and a half out of college myself but I can tell you. College students struggling with loans and debts don’t want to be told by some jackass who already has his degree and is in a body that votes to raise its own salary that they should just accept higher rates on their loans because “it’s cool.” The GOP’s biggest problem of problems is they’re an exclusive party. The Democratic Party’s great strength throughout the years is that it’s been a more inclusive party than the Republicans are.

108 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:07:13pm

More heads are about to go ‘splodey:

109 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:07:44pm

re: #103 ProTARDISLiberal

pick a card from the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” deck of foreign policy cards.

110 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:08:27pm

From the Oops! Now I look like an asshole! files:

111 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:08:34pm

OT but

112 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:08:46pm

Meanwhile, in Colorado Springs, the Black Forest Fire is now reported to have moved to with 400 Yards of CO-83 and North Gate.

113 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:08:53pm

re: #88 Charles Johnson

Looks like the Obama admin doesn’t want to talk about it openly, but they’re hedging about whether we’re providing arms to the rebels.

Shades of Afghanistan.

My thoughts exactly and look where that led us. Last thing we need is to create another Bin Laden who wants to blow us up every chance he gets.

114 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:09:10pm

re: #104 sattv4u2

LeBron will go off tonight (probably 32-36 point range) but hopefully at the detriment the others getting into the flow

That’ll be nice but when Lebron’s on, it seems that it helps the whole team but I’d prefer that happen too. People call the Spurs boring. I’ll take winning. I just flat out admire how consistently good they are.

115 jaunte  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:09:48pm

McCain finding it tough not to be the decider.

116 sagehen  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:10:37pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

I’m really really not sure how I feel about aiding the Syrian opposition. Hard to know how much of it is media spin or bias, but they don’t really look a whole lot better than the Assad regime. And possibly a lot worse.

They’re not the good guys — apparently there isn’t a Good Guys in this fight, only the slightly less awful guys…

But it’s a proxy war with Iran.

117 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:11:08pm

re: #111 Backwoods_Sleuth

OT but

Yeah I saw that. Steve King’s a bigger dipshit than the other King is. At least that one finds his nut. I don’t think this King has ever found one.

118 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:13:09pm

re: #108 Lidane

a matter of cost containment, AZ has slashed it’s own budgets so badly that without this they would have to ….. “raise taxes”. Their own previous policies coupled with SB1040 really trashed the state coffers. Doesn’t mean Jan is any kinder, just pragmatic.

119 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:13:48pm

re: #112 ProTARDISLiberal

This is the area in question:

All that separates a portion of Colorado Springs from the fire is the equivalent of 2 New Orleans-class cruisers laid end-to-end.

120 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:14:13pm

OT - It’s fun being the family tech support guy. I FINALLY fixed the problem I was having with my wireless router not auto detecting the IP from my new internet service. It took me about 4 hours of googling/trial and error before I finally fixed it. It turns out I had to change only ONE setting in my computer and do a full reset on the modem.

After the installer finished setting up the new service he left absolutely NO documentation or instructional materials behind of any kind. I’ve had to learn by Googling and fiddling with new modem myself to figure out how everything works.

I should also note I did NOT call my internet providers tech support as more than likely they would just blame the problem on my router and tell me it wasn’t compatible with their service, which is BS. I HATE having to call tech support of any kind. I find I usually get more helpful information from Google anyway.

121 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:15:08pm
122 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:15:20pm

re: #119 ProTARDISLiberal

isn’t that the same area that refused to be incorportated into Colorado Springs because they didn’t want to pay the taxes for the accompanying services?

123 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:15:34pm

In my earlier posted story regarding corruption arrests here in the Czech Republic, the current as well as the former chief of military intelligence were among those arrested earlier. More arrests are said to be forthcoming.

124 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:16:06pm

re: #115 jaunte

McCain finding it tough not to be the decider.

Fortunately, his vice president will be on Fox & Friends Monday to clarify everything.

125 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:16:32pm

re: #94 Lidane

Speaking of shifting demographics, this should go over well with the racist nutters:

Just when they were starting to get over Hendrix.

126 Lidane  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:17:02pm

re: #118 piratedan

Doesn’t mean Jan is any kinder, just pragmatic.

True, but this will make the RWNJ idiots apoplectic and that pleases me. Heh.

127 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:17:18pm

re: #122 piratedan

Black Forest, the part that has been burning, is that area.

To the West of that intersection is Colorado Springs itself. Albeit the some of the Northern-most portions.

128 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:17:19pm

re: #119 ProTARDISLiberal

This is the area in question:

All that separates a portion of Colorado Springs from the fire is the equivalent of 2 New Orleans-class cruisers laid end-to-end.

Tell them to pray harder.

129 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:18:02pm

Holy shit.

Earlier today, Apple executive Eddy Cue — the architect of the company’s iTunes and e-book business — took the stand in court to face questions about his company’s role in alleged price-fixing of the e-book market, where he admitted that Apple had actually mulled over an even worse idea than mere price-fixing.

The Verge’s Greg Sandoval reports that the biggest revelation of the day came when Cue confirmed that, when deciding whether to get into the e-book market in the first place, he and late Apple CEO Steve Jobs had actually considered approaching Amazon with a deal — Apple wouldn’t sell books if Amazon didn’t sell downloadable music.

130 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:20:22pm

re: #126 Lidane

just happy that a LOT of folks that weren’t getting coverage have the chance of living healthier lives. random acts of government and all that

131 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:21:19pm

re: #129 Eclectic Cyborg

Freedom to contract uber alles !!ty

More seriously, anti-trust has been a moribund area of the law for decades, and something like this is probably not enough to bring it back to life.

132 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:22:50pm

re: #129 Eclectic Cyborg

Holy shit.

Well it’s a good they didn’t. I actually use Amazon’s music store more so than I do the Itunes store now. In fact, I only really use the iPod as my Apple product. Replaced my college era iPhone with a Droid Bionic and it’s worked out. I also have a Kindle. Ah freedom to choose is nice.

133 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:23:00pm
134 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:23:08pm

re: #127 ProTARDISLiberal

close to the AFA true? My niece works there in the athletic department.

135 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:23:45pm

DC-10 outfitted for fire work just passed over the house.

136 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:23:48pm

Chemical weapons are one of the few things that pretty much every nation (except Syria, which never signed the Chemical Weapons Convention) agrees is a bad thing. While the US and Russia (post USSR) have sought to eliminate their stockpiles as per the CWC and agreements, Assad has been building its stockpile.

That Assad is using CW against Syrians isn’t the least bit surprising. That it took this long for the US and President Obama to make this declaration is likewise not surprising.

The ability to secure definitive evidence of these attacks takes time to confirm. Assad was using these weapons in small scale attacks - which when combined with his iron fisted control on media access made independent verification quite difficult.

So, where do we go from here. No fly zones are a possibility, but Obama isn’t likely to go that route just yet.

Directly arming the rebels is also fraught with problems, not the least of which is that al Qaeda are among the rebels and would capitalize on the influx of weapons to consider attacking not only Assad, but Western targets including US and Israeli interests in the region and beyond. Being able to find forces sufficient to counter Assad’s forces (and Hizbullah fighting alongside) that aren’t tainted by AQ is a tough task as well.

The problems with direct arming is why the US may eventually back a no-fly zone in some fashion.

Now, none of this is good news for Assad. It’s also not good news for Iran. They’re continuing to back Assad (and by and through Hizbullah as well). This puts them in a tougher spot, particularly since the use of chemical weapons is one of the few acts that are universally despised in warfare. They still want to back Assad, but Assad’s use of chemical weapons will make that tougher for the Iranian regime to sell to their own people - Iranians were on the receiving end of chemical weapons attacks in the Iran-Iraq war, so they know just how bad it could get.

137 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:25:31pm

re: #134 piratedan

The area in question is directly across from the AFA, yes.

138 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:28:22pm

re: #67 Charles Johnson

And as others have noted, the costs are not out of line with similar presidential trips to Africa.

Presidents do more travel than they ever have before. With added security precautions, it’s going to add costs, but foreign policy needs to get done too.

Whoever is President after Obama will face the same thing - it’s going to cost.

139 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:29:58pm

Dear Lizards, I’ve updated my posting in the comment section with more information.

littlegreenfootballs.com

This is what a real scandal looks like, not a pretend scandal cooked up by Congressman Issa.

140 GeneJockey  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:31:15pm

re: #138 lawhawk

And as others have noted, the costs are not out of line with similar presidential trips to Africa.

Presidents do more travel than they ever have before. With added security precautions, it’s going to add costs, but foreign policy needs to get done too.

Whoever is President after Obama will face the same thing - it’s going to cost.

But whoever it is probably won’t be a Ni-CLANG!, so it will all be fine, unless it’s Hillary, in which case it won’t be.

141 GeneJockey  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:33:46pm

re: #129 Eclectic Cyborg

But Free Marketeers told me that The Market is self-policing!
//

142 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:35:07pm

Meanwhile…

143 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:36:01pm

Greg Mitchell with a rare venture into the land of sarcasm.


144 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:36:07pm

re: #141 GeneJockey

But Free Marketeers told me that The Market is self-policing!
//

I was in CA for the stupid self-inflicted energy debacle caused by deregulation. I could go on for hours about how well The Market “polices” itself.

145 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:36:17pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…

It’s starting to feel lonely out there.

146 sagehen  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:36:51pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…
Are there any meaningful differences between the actions of Dan Ellsberg & Edward Snowden?

Here’s one — Dan Ellsberg turned himself in the next day, said “yes, please, I’d like a trial in a court of law kthx.”

147 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:37:43pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…

148 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:38:06pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…

Daniel Ellsberg took his story to a responsible newspaper.

149 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:38:07pm

re: #118 piratedan

a matter of cost containment, AZ has slashed it’s own budgets so badly that without this they would have to ….. “raise taxes”. Their own previous policies coupled with SB1040 really trashed the state coffers. Doesn’t mean Jan is any kinder, just pragmatic.

Got to give her props for standing tough on this though. She said she would start vetoing all bills till this passed, and she did!

150 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:39:19pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

I though GG was supposed to be intelligent. If so, he’s got amazing ideological tunnel vision to regard Ellsberg’s failure to run off to Eastern Europe or a Chinese satellite as ‘no meaningful difference’.

If the Chinese want to snap up Snowden, they can do so at will. This is not hard to grasp.

151 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:39:51pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…

I must have missed when Ellsberg fled to Moscow or Beijing.

152 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:40:31pm

Daniel Ellsberg now supports Snowden, but what he did has almost no comparison at all to what Snowden did. Ellsberg revealed massive government wrongdoing, lying, and covering up damning facts about the Vietnam War.

Snowden revealed secret information about a legal program that DOES have government oversight.

I’m just gob-smacked that anyone would seriously say there’s no difference. This is the kind of crap Greenwald pulls all the time, to promote himself.

153 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:41:09pm

re: #151 HappyWarrior

I must have missed when Ellsberg fled to Moscow or Beijing.

He had a pocket full of E-tickets and the FBI, CIA and all the king’s horses chased him around It’s a Small World several times before apprehending him in line.

154 freetoken  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:41:15pm

Elsewhere on the planet…

Strange, Glowing Night Clouds Continue to Spread

[…]


In 2009, scientists from the National Center for Atmospheric Research pointed to the southern creep of noctilucent clouds as an early warning signal for climate change high in the atmosphere. Now, new data from NASA’s cloud-observing AIM satellite supports this possibility.


[…]

155 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:42:22pm

re: #148 Decatur Deb

Daniel Ellsberg took his story to a responsible newspaper.

Also, IIRC the Pentagon Papers was not even a government sanctioned top secret thing. More of an embarrassment than anything else. It was done by McNamara as some kind of side history project.

156 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:42:35pm

re: #152 Charles Johnson

Daniel Ellsberg now supports Snowden, but what he did has almost no comparison at all to what Snowden did. Ellsberg revealed massive government wrongdoing, lying, and covering up damning facts about the Vietnam War.

Snowden revealed secret information about a legal program that DOES have government oversight.

I’m just gob-smacked that anyone would seriously say there’s no difference. This is the kind of crap Greenwald pulls all the time, to promote himself.

It’s easy to do it when Ellsberg unfortunately himself regards Snowden as being like him. But yeah there’s a big difference between what the two did and GG knows that but he prefers to be a troll.

157 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:43:32pm

re: #155 blueraven

Also, IIRC the Pentagon Papers was not even a government sanctioned top secret thing. More of an embarrassment than anything else. It was done by McNamara as some kind of side history project.

Could that have been the reason why the USSC found that the Nixon administration lacked the authority to ban their publication in the NYT?

158 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:44:34pm

re: #155 blueraven

Also, IIRC the Pentagon Papers was not even a government sanctioned top secret thing. More of an embarrassment than anything else. It was done by McNamara as some kind of side history project.

Might be part of another difference: Ellsberg didn’t go to prison, and Snowden will.

159 freetoken  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:45:12pm

On the USSC (unanimous) ruling today on genomic data patents, the Ars Technica writer points something out that others have missed:


Supreme Court blocks patenting of genomic DNA (Updated)

[…]


The other interesting issue comes from Scalia’s separate concurrence. He completely agrees with the decision itself, but he is unwilling to sign on to any of the technical descriptions of the biology. In his one-paragraph concurrence, Scalia writes that he cannot understand them and cannot even understand whether the expert descriptions of them are accurate. (Which is somewhat ironic, given that Scalia once accepted that “creation science” was scientific based solely on a few creation scientists saying it was.) All he knows is that isolated DNA is identical to a portion of DNA in its natural state. That’s enough for him to concur with the decision.


To an extent, Scalia was right not to sign on. The opening paragraph of the decision contains two errors in its description of DNA (the bonds between the DNA strands are hydrogen, not chemical as it claims, and not all non-coding DNA is part of an intron). These don’t affect the decision in any way, but they do suggest that the Supremes are having a bit of trouble with biology.

[…]

160 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:46:48pm

re: #156 HappyWarrior

I don’t think GG sees it as trolling, he’s just so immersed in his own narcissistic vision of the world. He’s like Kevin Kline’s character from Fierce Creatures. It’s his stage and we’re either all just bit players or part of an adoring audience.

161 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:46:50pm

re: #157 HappyWarrior

Could that have been the reason why the USSC found that the Nixon administration lacked the authority to ban their publication in the NYT?

Perhaps, I would have to look back at all that again. There was a lot going on then and I was very young!

162 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:47:43pm

re: #157 HappyWarrior

Could that have been the reason why the USSC found that the Nixon administration lacked the authority to ban their publication in the NYT?

For nostalgia, I’m stroking my 1971 edition of the Pentagon Papers. The Bantam list price was $2.25. That’s a difference.

163 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:48:20pm

re: #155 blueraven

Also, IIRC the Pentagon Papers was not even a government sanctioned top secret thing. More of an embarrassment than anything else. It was done by McNamara as some kind of side history project.

No, the Pentagon papers were definitely top-secret documents about the Vietnam War. Basically, they showed that the US knew the war was unwinnable, and was costing far more in terms of lives and money than they were admitting.

The Pentagon papers led to the end of an unjust war. I was a big supporter of Daniel Ellsberg at the time, and still am, even though I think he’s gone overboard with his statements about the Snowden case.

164 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:48:32pm

re: #139 Dr Lizardo

Dear Lizards, I’ve updated my posting in the comment section with more information.

littlegreenfootballs.com

This is what a real scandal looks like, not a pretend scandal cooked up by Congressman Issa.

You can post your updates at the top of your Page with the pencil. Doesn’t have the short window like comment pencils do.

165 GeneJockey  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:48:57pm

re: #144 EPR-radar

I was in CA for the stupid self-inflicted energy debacle caused by deregulation. I could go on for hours about how well The Market “polices” itself.

Right, and then fucking Dick Cheney said, ‘No, there’s no manipulation of the market!’

166 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:49:34pm

re: #162 Decatur Deb

For nostalgia, I’m stroking my 1971 edition of the Pentagon Papers. The Bantam list price was $2.25. That’s a difference.

Yeah nice deal. I have a similarly priced 1973 Who’s Who in Baseball that I got from a yardsale when I was in New York.

167 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:51:56pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

No, the Pentagon papers were definitely top-secret documents about the Vietnam War. Basically, they showed that the US knew the war was unwinnable, and was costing far more in terms of lives and money than they were admitting.

The Pentagon papers led to the end of an unjust war. I was a big supporter of Daniel Ellsberg at the time, and still am, even though I think he’s gone overboard with his statements about the Snowden case.

Yes, I was a fan too at the time. I hated the Vietnam war as most young people did. We all knew someone who had died there.

168 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:53:48pm

re: #164 wrenchwench

Thanks.

169 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:55:19pm

According to WSJ, (via Memorandum) the military plan for Syria includes a no-flyzone to be enforced from Jordan.

online.wsj.com

170 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:55:30pm

re: #138 lawhawk

And as others have noted, the costs are not out of line with similar presidential trips to Africa.

Presidents do more travel than they ever have before. With added security precautions, it’s going to add costs, but foreign policy needs to get done too.

Whoever is President after Obama will face the same thing - it’s going to cost.

Ah, the voice of reason, something that terrifies the far right because it will rob them of their theistic autocracy.

171 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:57:14pm

re: #169 Decatur Deb

Well, Jordan has been a bastion of Sanity in the region recently.

172 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 3:58:48pm

re: #171 ProTARDISLiberal

Well, Jordan has been a bastion of Sanity in the region recently.

It’s a good way to get a king killed.

173 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:00:07pm

re: #172 Decatur Deb

Yeah, they are in a sticky situation because of the surrounding neighbors, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

174 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:03:39pm
175 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:07:45pm
176 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:10:12pm

re: #175 Charles Johnson

Greenwald is such a studstub.

177 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:10:40pm
178 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:11:09pm

If you’re losing Mother Jones…

179 Gus  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:11:09pm

re: #175 Charles Johnson

I haven’t seen much of anything. What documents? All we have is his biased and rhetoric which sometimes border on a bad spy novel. What he’s shown is some Powerpoint slide for Prism and a FICA court warrant. Where are these documents that prove mass spying as he claims?

180 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:12:38pm

re: #179 Gus

or that said spying was illegally performed or misrepresented.

181 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:13:08pm

re: #179 Gus

I haven’t seen much of anything. What documents? All we have is his biased and rhetoric which sometimes border on a bad spy novel. What he’s shown is some Powerpoint slide for Prism and a FICA court warrant. Where are these documents that prove mass spying as he claims?

China.

182 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:13:28pm

Dog just guzzled her entire bowl of water down.

In a not shocking turn of events, this caused a gastro-intestinal reaction that caused her to throw up.

183 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:13:55pm

re: #169 Decatur Deb

A no fly zone would have to be enforced from Turkey (a possibility given its membership in NATO), the Med (via US aircraft carriers, which is a more expensive proposition), or Jordan.

It would not be from Israel (obvious reasons), and Lebanon is considered within the Syrian sphere of influence with Hizbullah deeply involved there.

184 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:13:56pm

re: #175 Charles Johnson

The “documents” no one has seen except some chinese papers or were the powerpoint slides supposed to rip the lid off the whole thing?

185 Gus  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:14:05pm

re: #181 wrenchwench

China.

I’m supposed to freak about the US spying on China? Or other countries for that matter? It’s not necessarily spying either but your usual SOP stuff the NSA does.

186 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:14:06pm

re: #181 wrenchwench

ZING!

187 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:15:01pm
188 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:15:49pm

re: #183 lawhawk

A no fly zone would have to be enforced from Turkey (a possibility given its membership in NATO), the Med (via US aircraft carriers, which is a more expensive proposition), or Jordan.

It would not be from Israel (obvious reasons), and Lebanon is considered within the Syrian sphere of influence with Hizbullah deeply involved there.

You left out our good friends in Iraq.

189 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:16:06pm

re: #185 Gus

I’m supposed to freak about the US spying on China? Or other countries for that matter? It’s not necessarily spying either but your usual SOP stuff the NSA does.

I’d be more pissed if there were documents leaked that showed we weren’t spying on anybody.

190 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:17:15pm

re: #189 darthstar

I’d be more pissed if there were documents leaked that showed we weren’t spying on anybody everybody.

191 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:17:24pm
192 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:18:13pm

Twitter question…how can you tell if you’ve been blocked by someone?

193 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:19:01pm

Glenn Greenwald is making Ron Burgundy seem competent

Youtube Video

194 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:19:12pm

re: #191 darthstar

And some dude who looks like James O’Keefe hiding in Hong Kong

Anybody seen that master of disguise?

195 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:19:41pm

re: #192 darthstar

Twitter question…how can you tell if you’ve been blocked by someone?

Tell them their mom is fat and if they tell you to fuck off, you’re not blocked.

196 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:23:05pm

re: #185 Gus

I’m supposed to freak about the US spying on China? Or other countries for that matter? It’s not necessarily spying either but your usual SOP stuff the NSA does.

They have computers. We hack their computers. The Chinese know that we know. But we make-believe that we don’t know and the Chinese make-believe that they believe that we don’t know, but know that we know. Everybody knows.

We all know that the US engages in cyberwarfare - offensively and defensively. But we don’t advertise the who, what, when, where, why or how. That’s clandestine for a reason. And making that public undermines national security.

197 Kragar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:23:20pm
198 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:24:51pm

re: #192 darthstar

Try to follow them in the web version of Twitter and you get a message telling you to get the fuck out.

199 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:26:13pm

re: #198 Charles Johnson

Try to follow them in the web version of Twitter and you get a message telling you to get the fuck out.

Not blocked then. Though I followed and unfollowed in the same three seconds.

I also unfollowed Chris Hayes yesterday…that felt good.

200 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:26:27pm

Good News Everyone: Black Forest Fire is 5% contained.

It’s Something

202 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:29:33pm

OT, but this really takes the cake. Apparently, the NR is defending Judge Edith Jones, whose comments, if they have been reported accurately, really are indefensible.

nationalreview.com

203 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:29:38pm
204 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:30:26pm

re: #201 Kragar

Texas Gov. Rick Perry: Americans Have No Right to Freedom From Religion

Can we pick the religion we must follow from an approved menu?

205 darthstar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:33:05pm
206 piratedan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:33:19pm

re: #201 Kragar

par for the course for the Governor who thought that the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor

207 blueraven  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:37:50pm

Meanwhile

208 Joanne  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:45:30pm

re: #45 HappyWarrior

Knew it then. Not bragging but I am glad to have realized early on that 2008 McCain was not 2000 McCain. Glad to have also seen early on that Palin was an anti-intellectual dolt who was chosen for the sole purposes of appeasing the right wing base who never trusted McCain.

Palin was selected on the principle that all voters who possess a vagina will vote for another vagina (see Pumas). He had no idea about Palin’s nuttiness, extremeism or ignorance.

209 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:46:01pm

re: #202 EPR-radar

OT, but this really takes the cake. Apparently, the NR is defending Judge Edith Jones, whose comments, if they have been reported accurately, really are indefensible.

nationalreview.com

NRO’s cake got taken a long time ago.

210 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:47:42pm

re: #201 Kragar

Texas Gov. Rick Perry: Americans Have No Right to Freedom From Religion

The new law states that students and school officials have the right to use religious greetings like “Merry Christmas” and display various religious holiday symbols on school grounds.

Oh, to be young again.

X-Day is a traditional part of the Church of the SubGenius, a religion formed as a parody of cults and extreme religious groups, and their pamphlets and claims. X-Day fell on July 5, 1998, the scheduled “end of the world”, and has been celebrated on July 5 each year since then. From its inception in 1980, the Church had prophesied that an army of alien invaders (known as the “X-ists” or “Men From Planet X”) would land on the planet Earth and destroy the world of “normals”, “pinks”, and “glorps,” while the members of the Church of the SubGenius would be rescued by the aliens and taken away into space.

Chapters 10 and 11 of Revelation X: The “Bob” Apocryphon supplies additional details as to the precise kinds of fates which supposedly await the “pinks” and “normals” (as well as SubGenii who have not paid their membership fees) left behind when X-Day comes, saying, among other things, that those who are not immediately killed by the aliens will be enslaved by a society of evil clowns known as the “Bozo Cult” until eventually their souls are devoured by the Elder Gods. The book also tells readers that if they want more information, they should send one million dollars to Ivan Stang so that he can remake his 1973 film Let’s Visit the World of the Future.

211 Joanne  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:47:53pm

re: #49 wrenchwench

‘Dry microburst’ is a new one to me.

Wind shear.

212 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:48:37pm

re: #207 blueraven

It’s an election where the candidates for President are vetted by the Guardian Council and they can reject anyone that doesn’t fit their worldview.

Heck, they prevented a former president from running because they weren’t sufficiently of a like view.

And they’ve prohibited some former candidates from running again, including Mousavi who “lost” last time. The mullahs need to make this appear to be an election on the up-and-up, because they can’t afford a repeat of the riots and brutal crackdown that happened the last time.

The candidates aren’t going to stretch the Khameni positions on pretty much everything. They’re going to toe the line. That includes everything from Israel to nuclear weapons/power.

213 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:48:37pm

re: #209 wrenchwench

NRO’s cake got taken a long time ago.

I still have this outdated model that the NR is supposed to be all about crypto-racism etc., so I’m still (unreasonably, I suppose) shocked at how blatant things are getting these days.

214 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:51:15pm

re: #211 Joanne

Wind shear.

They mentioned wind shear separately in another tweet, so I thought this might be something different.

215 Joanne  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:53:14pm

re: #59 wrenchwench

The option of the Party moderating itself is unthinkable, of course.

Even if they did moderate, what do they stand for? Thes USED to be fiscal conservatives, but now they’re just about spending big on what they want, little of which helps the country. For 25 years or so it’s been cutting taxes and shrinking government. Ok, then what? Drill baby drill?

The GOP needs more than just moderation, they need a real vision and a modicum of care and concern about governing.

216 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:54:00pm

re: #213 EPR-radar

I still have this outdated model that the NR is supposed to be all about crypto-racism etc., so I’m still (unreasonably, I suppose) shocked at how blatant things are getting these days.

We need a word for the shocked-and-yet-not-shocked sensation in these cases. OFFS is my usual reaction.

217 EPR-radar  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:56:01pm

re: #216 wrenchwench

We need a word for the shocked-and-yet-not-shocked sensation in these cases. OFFS is my usual reaction.

I’d like to steal Reagan’s famous line of “There you go again”, but it isn’t explicit enough about the GOP’s racism, classism, misogyny and homophobia.

218 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 4:58:37pm

re: #215 Joanne

Even if they did moderate, what do they stand for? Thes USED to be fiscal conservatives, but now they’re just about spending big on what they want, little of which helps the country. For 25 years or so it’s been cutting taxes and shrinking government. Ok, then what? Drill baby drill?

The GOP needs more than just moderation, they need a real vision and a modicum of care and concern about governing.

I guess that’s just too much to ask.

Those of us who would like an effective government can’t possibly vote for those who seem to want no government whatsoever except as needed to enforce some religious encyclical.

219 AlexRogan  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:02:42pm

re: #146 sagehen

Here’s one — Dan Ellsberg turned himself in the next day, said “yes, please, I’d like a trial in a court of law kthx.”

Meanwhile, Snowden ran off like a little bitch to hole up in a swank HK hotel, so that he could give interviews to journalists from a newspaper in the back pocket of Beijing.

One of these things is not like the other…

220 Weet  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:05:08pm

Looks like that’s less than 4 miles from the Air Force Academy.
I’ve been tracking these fires and the ones in NM, somewhat.
You haz this map?

denverpost.com

221 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:06:41pm

re: #204 Decatur Deb

Can we pick the religion we must follow from an approved menu?

Trouble maker! /

222 Joanne  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:16:35pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…

223 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:17:50pm

re: #204 Decatur Deb

Can we pick the religion we must follow from an approved menu?

Saying “menu” reminds me of Don Imus on WABC radio when I was in high school — his “Billy Sol Hargis of the First Church of the Gooey Death and Discount House of Worship.” “Gooey” sounds like a menu item.

224 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:21:47pm
225 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 5:34:14pm

re: #201 Kragar

What a dick, Perry is.

226 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:03:46pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

Yeah, 93,000 people can die and it’s “meh.” Not sure why killing 150 people with sarin, horrible though it is, is supposed to cause more outrage than mass slaughter by conventional means on a giant scale.

Maybe it’s not the sarin itself, but the stark violation of international norms. Certainly even the smallest nuke or dirty bomb would be regarded as so far beyond the pale to earn true international hostility for a long time. Symbolic in many ways but perhaps significant in others. Anyone is allowed to shoot the mad dog.

227 stabby  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:13:44pm

Think about this for a while:

Though it is itself barbaric, the only way to minimize the bloodshed and/or oppression in a place like Syria is to separate the populations of the sects.

There have been centuries of atrocities, there is what I’ve been attacked for calling bad philosophy keeping the problem entrenched generation after generation and thus there is no way to get the groups to trust each other.

Half of the oppression (culminating in atrocity) in that place is due to the fear that each group, quite rightly has of the others.

And though we’re used to counting the large sects, Alawites, Sunnies, Shiites, there are other, tiny sects that have to fear massacre too, that have been living in fear of massacre by the regime for at least decades. I remember stories about one.

228 stabby  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:14:39pm

Also, even if we do nothing, the likely outcome, is that after decades of sectarian violence, the survivors will have segregated themselves.

229 stabby  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:15:15pm

That’s what’s going on in Iraq too.

230 Ming  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 7:11:02pm

re: #11 Kragar

We don’t mind you blowing the fucking hell out of each other, chopping each other into bits, or setting each other on fire, but chemical weapons? Now you guys are taking it too far.
/

Yes, it seems strange that it comes down to this (what you say above). I’m surprised. I believe the “Syrian opposition” includes Al Queda. Maybe this is “strategic”, since Assad is connected to Iran? But I think it’s a bad idea for us to get involved. Neither side is our friend, and no one’s going to thank us for spending our blood and treasure.

231 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 7:41:43pm

re: #227 stabby

You haven’t been attacked for calling it ‘bad philosophy’, you silly goose.

232 stabby  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 8:18:51pm

re: #231 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I know better than to expect an argument in good faith from you, but of course I have used that phrase a few times and at least once you personally attacked it.

Stop wasting my time.

233 stabby  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 8:20:52pm

You know, I did make an observation about an important humanitarian issue above.

But I suppose to Obdicut there is nothing important here other than his (or her) ego and some stupid fight that only he cares about.

234 John Vreeland  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 9:36:02pm

No doubt Assad thought he was being sly by using only a small amount of chemicals, but the result is that we were then able to make up our own mind as to whether-or-not the amount was significant based on other criteria. One of those criteria may be Hezbollah. Had the Iranian gang not bothered to join Assad we might still be saying that there was not quite enough evidence to indicate Assad was using chemicals.

235 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Jun 13, 2013 10:14:44pm

Well, I’m sure Alice Walker will be visting there soon to stand up to them and protest how they’re treating their people!

236 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 12:31:30am

There are about 100,000 killed in Syria so far.

It might be nice if people cared enough to leave their comfort zones and actually be very serious about what it takes to end this.

237 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 2:39:13am

re: #232 stabby

I know better than to expect an argument in good faith from you, but of course I have used that phrase a few times and at least once you personally attacked it.

Stop wasting my time.

An argument in good faith would probably include the context of ‘bad philosophy’ being another occasion where you, mirroring Robert Spencer’s arguments, say that Islam is the most evil religion in the world and Christianity is better.

And you seriously don’t think that the Muslim members of LGF don’t care about you insisting their religion is the worst of all religions?

238 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:11:39am

I don’t care what religious people think about criticisms of religion. We only won modernity, science, rationality, peace, cosmopolitanism, equality, education, freedom of heart and mind and speech and action to the extent we whipped religion into submission. If there’s any religion that isn’t domesticated yet, it needs to be put in its place for the sake of humanity.

Once again, 100,000 people dead and you just want to punish people who speak honestly.

239 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:14:02am

re: #238 stabby

I don’t care what religious people think about criticisms of religion. We only won modernity, science, rationality, peace, education, freedom of heart and mind and action to the extent we whipped religion into submission. If there’s any religion that isn’t domesticated yet, it needs to be put in its place for the sake of humanity.

Once again, 100,000 people dead and you just want to punish people who speak honestly.

You think Christianity is domesticated. As women die from being forced to bear children, you think Christianity is ‘domesticated’.

You are so goddamn dumb.

240 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:15:50am

Also you might want to update the page, I added a few words to that list.
I don’t care what religious people think about criticisms of religion. We only won modernity, science, rationality, peace, cosmopolitanism, equality, education, freedom of heart and mind and speech and action to the extent we whipped religion into submission. If there’s any religion that isn’t domesticated yet, it needs to be put in its place for the sake of humanity.

It’s a hell of a lot more domesticated than it used to be.

241 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:17:29am

And it’s less of an enemy to that list than Islam is. Go talk to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and get back to me.

242 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:37:43am

And another example is that we can’t have peace between the sects of Islam in Syria. NOW, what does it take for us to be willing to say that out loud? If we can’t acknowledge the dynamics of the situation, we can’t be expected to do anything helpful can we?

Oh never mind, I know that your plan is to rage at me for being impolite. How useful you are. Grounded in reality.

243 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:39:32am

re: #242 stabby

And another example is that we can’t have peace between the sects of Islam in Syria. NOW, what does it take for us to be willing to say that out loud? If we can’t acknowledge the dynamics of the situation, we can’t be expected to do anything helpful can we?

Oh never mind, I know that your plan is to rage at me for being impolite. How useful you are. Grounded in reality.

‘Impolite’?

If you were worth the bother, I’d rage at you for being a fucking ignorant bigot, but I’ve seen how impervious to input you are.

244 stabby  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:35:16am

re: #237 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I never copied anything directly from Robert Spencer.

This morning Robert Spencer invaded the comment section over at Harry’s Place in order to show that he’s a self centered moron and attack the Council of Ex-Muslims - you know for noticing that he’s a creep who hangs out with Geller and stuff like that..

If you want to know what I really think of him, you can find me insulting him to his face in this thread.

hurryupharry.org

Josh S Robert Spencer • 17 minutes ago

What a horrible comment. The Ex Muslim forum publishes the best informed, most scathing attacks on Islam - better, of course, than yours because they come from closer knowledge.

And for you, the only important thing is that some of them notice your own clumsy hostility toward moderates, your paling around with paranoid far right bigots like Pamela Geller, the flashes of your own Catholic sectarianism and drew the obvious conclusion about you.

I’m sorry if being an ex-Muslim doesn’t predispose one to stroking the egos of clumsy morons like yourself, but that is hardly a stain on the forum.

Josh S Gene • 28 minutes ago

In fact if you go through Spencer’s archives you can find him “debating” at least one moderate Muslim - and his main point was to attack the man as a fraud for presenting a view of Islam that was less hostile.

Spencer absolutely promotes the most horrible version of Islam and he absolutely isn’t bright enough to distinguish between warning of the dangers of Islam from promoting Islamism himself.

Josh S Newcombe • 11 minutes ago

When he attacks moderates, saying that the worst version of Islam is the only real version then he is promoting Islamism among those who believe in Islam.

Josh S curious • 14 minutes ago

Look, it’s true that there’s a dirth of competent anti-jihad campaigners.

Spencer is guilty of being a bit too dim for this and also of, himself, promoting bigoted xenophobes like Pamela Geller.

I would say that Harry’s Place is the only place I know where the writers do a great job of exposing Islamist haters without falling over the edge themselves.

And yet, unfortunately for all their care, the below the line commenters here are mostly horrible.

I do want to welcome mettaculture back as our most thoughtful commenter though. My the rest of you get stuffed and go spend your time at Fox News or the EDL and leave us mettaculture to talk to.

Etc.

245 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:40:45am

re: #244 stabby

you can find me insulting him to his face in this thread.

Rotating aphorisms should return. There is a need for a place to put these things.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh