Greenwald: We never claimed “direct access” was true

Glenn Greenwald continues to spin his Guardian PRISM overreach
Media • Views: 28,415

Today, in his regular “On Security and Liberty” Guardian column, Glenn Greenwald sought to address some of the criticisms of his PRISM reporting. As when asked about his “direct access” claims in a recent interview, Greenwald again framed his PRISM story as not being about details of any actual program, but instead, as being about the discrepancy between his read on the leaked PowerPoint slides and the denials from internet companies (and the government).

Here’s the relevant part of Greenwald’s new column:

On PRISM, partisanship and propaganda

The Guardian has not revised any of our articles and, to my knowledge, has no intention to do so. That’s because we did not claim that the NSA document alleging direct collection from the servers was true; we reported - accurately - that the NSA document claims that the program allows direct collection from the companies’ servers. Before publishing, we went to the internet companies named in the documents and asked about these claims. When they denied it, we purposely presented the story as one of a major discrepancy between what the NSA document claims and what the internet companies claim, as the headline itself makes indisputably clear:

The NSA document says exactly what we reported. Just read it and judge for yourself (PRISM is “collection directly from the servers of these US service providers”). It’s endearingly naive how some people seem to think that because government officials or corporate executives issue carefully crafted denials, this resolves the matter.

As a reminder, here are some of the most explosive allegations found in Greenwald’s original PRISM article:

NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others

The program facilitates extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information.

…

Companies are legally obliged to comply with requests for users’ communications under US law, but the Prism program allows the intelligence services direct access to the companies’ servers. The NSA document notes the operations have “assistance of communications providers in the US”.

…

When the FAA was first enacted, defenders of the statute argued that a significant check on abuse would be the NSA’s inability to obtain electronic communications without the consent of the telecom and internet companies that control the data. But the Prism program renders that consent unnecessary, as it allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications off the companies’ servers.

…

The Prism program allows the NSA, the world’s largest surveillance organisation, to obtain targeted communications without having to request them from the service providers and without having to obtain individual court orders.

With this program, the NSA is able to reach directly into the servers of the participating companies and obtain both stored communications as well as perform real-time collection on targeted users.

UPDATE at 6/14/13 6:24:26 pm by Charles Johnson

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248 comments
1 sauceruney  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 5:05:04pm

His calling the world’s attention to something that a good many people already knew about, with the added sensationalism of these now-disowned claims, has done more damage than good for those who’ve been fighting for privacy-rights, yet the most prominent of them have been pulled into this mess and are losing credibility right along with him.

2 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 5:31:30pm

aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!

The infamous game of misinformation-I didn’t do it!

3 cinesimon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 5:43:16pm

Yep, The Guardian made a big mistake when they took on Greenwald. Here’s hoping they realize, with this debacle, their mistake.
The editor in chief at The Guardian has always been honest, and brave. Here’s hoping his passion for pure journalism determines Greenwald’s fate.
And, for that matter, the chief of news needs a good spank on the bottom for his dishonesty.
Greenwald is a Fox News level Cry Wolf-er. The Guardian has never been that, and I really hope they decide they need to enforce that most important - and distinctive, given the state of modern journalism - of values.
Sad to see the likes of Brad Friedman get in behind him so stridently, and then to exploit an elderly Daniel Ellsberg - who clearly no longer sees straight, to back up their crumbling story - shows a sad level of desperation and awareness of how null and void their most sensational claims are.

4 piratedan  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 5:47:38pm

so in essence…..

all that shit I reported about whilst running around with my pants on fire is just for me to throw out there for you, good reader, to decide if it’s accurate or not. Don’t forget to hold your collective breath for the new and exciting revelatory details that I may or may not choose to share via their possible publication on my own timeline which I may or may not choose to honor.

how does this person have a job with a supposedly credible news reporting agency?

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:02:43pm

Another great post, simoom. Promoted!

6 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:06:04pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

Thanks.

Part of the title got eaten in the promotion. It used to read:

Greenwald: We never claimed “the NSA document alleging direct collection from the servers was true”

and now says:

Greenwald: We never claimed

Though perhaps what would be better is what I initially intended, but which was too long for a diary title:

Glenn Greenwald: “[W]e did not claim that the NSA document alleging direct collection from the servers was true”

7 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:08:10pm

I see you fixed it. :) The direct access title works great too. Thanks.

8 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:08:58pm

The more he spins, the more he comes off look like amateur hour. When you line up the original reporting with his restatements and refinements, the more you see that there’s a whole lot of vaporware involved.

He’s made leaps and assumptions at each turn - with each assumption being the worst possible case with the least amount of oversight and legal constraints.

The walkbacks indicate just that despite his spinning furiously that there’s something there.

9 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:10:01pm

re: #7 simoom

I see you fixed it. :) The direct access title works great too. Thanks.

Shorter is always better for titles.

10 EPR-radar  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:11:11pm

re: #8 lawhawk

The more he spins, the more he comes off look like amateur hour. When you line up the original reporting with his restatements and refinements, the more you see that there’s a whole lot of vaporware involved.

He’s made leaps and assumptions at each turn - with each assumption being the worst possible case with the least amount of oversight and legal constraints.

The walkbacks indicate just that despite his spinning furiously that there’s something there.

It’s looking like an exemplary case of the peril of believing in one’s own press releases and/or of the journalist becoming part of the story.

11 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:12:46pm

Great article and recounting by the way Simoom! I’d suggest adding a couple of tags (or Charles can add) - NSA, national security, journalism, and PRISM to aid others in searching for this.

12 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:13:17pm

Back peddling is not a good sign.

13 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:13:46pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Flashback:

14 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:13:52pm

Greenwald proving again why a wait and see attitude is good with sensational stories.

15 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:15:18pm

re: #13 simoom

He got confused between ‘our’ and ‘their’ again.

16 Lidane  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:18:58pm

Greenwald on June 6th: “ZOMG TEH GUBMINT HAZ DIRECT ACCESS TO UR LIFE ONLINE AND TEH TECH COMPANIES ARE IN ON IT!”

Greenwald today: “We never said the government had direct access! Also, I don’t understand the whole Dropbox thing so I’m going to say it makes no sense”

He’s so full of shit. They totally said direct access was true. Repeatedly. So much so that now Microsoft, Google and the rest of the tech giants named in Greenwald’s first article want to be able to openly release all their internal numbers to prove that Greenwald is a liar.

God this guy is an insufferable douche.

17 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:21:03pm

So it seems the only thing Greenwald has done is increase paranoia about the government which of course if you’re a nutcase is a good thing because a populace paranoid about their government is awesome.

18 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:22:55pm
19 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:25:19pm
20 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:26:01pm

As well as: Results for “direct access” from:guardianus

21 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:26:43pm

re: #19 Gus

22 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:27:15pm

re: #19 Gus

And now the Guardian and the Washington Post are both discovering that those who jump to conclusions likely won’t like where they land.

23 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:27:31pm

re: #21 simoom

24 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:28:00pm

He believes in if you tell a lie often and strongly it will become the “truth.”

25 b.d.  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:28:12pm

re: #13 simoom

d’oh!

GG is really better reporting his feelings rather than facts.

26 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:28:33pm

Results for directly from:ggreenwald

27 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:30:22pm

Here’s GG bringing Snowden into the “direct access” claim, before he was revealed:

28 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:33:18pm
29 Iwouldprefernotto  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:36:28pm

I’ll be honest. I can’t wait for this story, and Greenwald to fade away.

30 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:37:23pm

re: #28 Gus

Mr Greenwald should go back to school and learn the differences between fiction and non-fiction.

31 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:37:23pm
It means what it says: that they can take things directly from the servers of those companies. What else could it mean?

Glenn Greenwald 10:39AM 9 Jun 2013

Oh Glenn, what else could it mean? It’s not what you said it was - a literal interpretation that you kept repeating as though the NSA would directly go on to company servers and grab the data they needed.

That wasn’t what was being done, but he kept insinuating that was the case for days. Now? He’s saying he never claimed direct access? There’s dozens of tweets and multiple Guardian reports insisting that the blockbuster story was about the NSA direct access to the servers.

Without the direct access angle, one of the important angles to this story falls apart.

32 EPR-radar  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:41:55pm

re: #30 PhillyPretzel

Mr Greenwald should go back to school and learn the differences between fiction and non-fiction.

Or the difference between journalism and writing an opinion column.

Admittedly, actual acts of journalism are becoming a rare breed these days, so Greenwald may suffer from a shortage of examples. That’s not an excuse, of course.

33 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:43:49pm

re: #32 EPR-radar

I am trying to remember the columnist who wrote for a large paper and one (or more) of his stories were made up from his imagination.

34 The Mountain That Blogs  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:46:08pm

re: #33 PhillyPretzel

Jayson Blair?

35 Lidane  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:47:00pm
36 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:47:08pm

re: #33 PhillyPretzel

Stephen Glass (the scandal was later turned into a movie)? Jayson Blair?

37 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:47:32pm

re: #34 The Mountain That Blogs

I think that is the one.

38 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 6:52:09pm

“How to kill a thread on a weblog” by PhillyPretzel. //

39 Lancelot Link  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:01:25pm

re: #33 PhillyPretzel

Judith Miller (well, “her imagination”)

40 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:02:06pm

re: #31 lawhawk

Oh Glenn, what else could it mean? It’s not what you said it was - a literal interpretation that you kept repeating as though the NSA would directly go on to company servers and grab the data they needed.

That wasn’t what was being done, but he kept insinuating that was the case for days. Now? He’s saying he never claimed direct access? There’s dozens of tweets and multiple Guardian reports insisting that the blockbuster story was about the NSA direct access to the servers.

Without the direct access angle, one of the important angles to this story falls apart.

Obviously it’s an obtuse angle.

41 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:02:44pm

From Greenwald’s hyperbolic Morning Joe appearance ~5 days ago:

MSNBC Video

GG: “What the NSA is, we are putting trillions of dollars into developing extremely sophisticated technology, the idea, the objective of this, is to enable the NSA to monitor every single conversation and every single form of human behavior anywhere in the world. If that is something we want our government to be doing we should have an open debate about that, not have it done in secret.”

42 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:02:45pm

re: #38 PhillyPretzel

“How to kill a thread on a weblog” by PhillyPretzel. //

Murdererererer.

43 krypto  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:06:25pm

Do I understand this correctly?

Greenwald’s defense for publishing something untrue is to say that yes, he published it, but he never said it was true?

44 jaunte  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:09:37pm

re: #43 krypto

He is never wrong or mistaken, therefore no defense is necessary.

45 The Mountain That Blogs  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:10:40pm

re: #43 krypto

Greenwald’s defense for publishing something untrue is to say that yes, he published it, but he never said it was true?

It was not intended to be a factual statement.

46 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:12:26pm
47 jaunte  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:13:24pm

re: #46 Gus

FTP: Face to Palm.

48 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:14:09pm

re: #46 Gus

I see you are having a lot of fun with his “statements.”

49 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:17:18pm

re: #48 PhillyPretzel

I see you are having a lot of fun with his “statements.”

It’s me against the Penguin!

51 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:18:26pm
52 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:29:05pm

If I made my living from words, I would learn what ‘direct’ means.

53 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:33:31pm
54 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:34:11pm

re: #53 Gus

Can we get the Situation’s take on Benghazi too?

55 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:38:24pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

Can we get the Situation’s take on Benghazi too?

What’s that gross family. Reality TV…

56 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:39:59pm

Honey Boo Boo.

57 uncah91  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:42:07pm

re: #55 Gus

What’s that gross family. Reality TV…

Any of them? All of them?

58 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:42:09pm
59 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:43:57pm
60 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:44:10pm

Fer reals.

61 RadicalModerate  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:44:38pm

This is the second event in two days, and occurred within 10 miles of each other.

1 killed, 8 injured in blast at Louisiana chemical plant

(CNN) — One person died and eight others were injured in a blast Friday evening at a chemical plant in Donaldsonville, Louisiana, police said.

The incident occurred at a CF Industries facility in the Mississippi River community of about 7,500 people, located some 40 miles south of Baton Rouge. According to its website, CF Industries is “the second largest nitrogen fertilizer producer in the world and the third largest phosphate fertilizer producer among public companies.”

Nitrogen was being offloaded from a tanker truck inside the Donaldsonville plant when “a small vessel ruptured,” plant manager Louis Frey said.

“We don’t know exactly what happened,” he said.
[…]
The blast comes a day after two people died and more than 100 others were injured in an explosion at another at Louisiana chemical plant — that one in Geismar, which is in Ascension Parish, like Donaldsonville.

62 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 7:58:33pm
63 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:01:48pm
65 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:16:17pm

re: #61 RadicalModerate

This is the second event in two days, and occurred within 10 miles of each other.

1 killed, 8 injured in blast at Louisiana chemical plant

Foul Play?

66 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:17:08pm

Evening Lizardim.

67 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:19:48pm

I’ve been having fun with the moonbat libertarians on another forum I frequent. They are literally going apeshit over the “civil rights violations” from this NSA program. When I point out the facts, they get oddly quiet.

68 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:23:38pm

re: #64 Gus

Uhhh…

Appeals court: Christian can sue Oklahoma over Native American license plate

I like my Oklahoma plates..There is no religious overtone to it..

69 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:29:23pm

re: #67 thedopefishlives

I’ve been having fun with the moonbat libertarians on another forum I frequent. They are literally going apeshit over the “civil rights violations” from this NSA program. When I point out the facts, they get oddly quiet.

Like wingnuts, they want to have the fantasy that they are bravely struggling against an oppressive government. When reality intrudes on the fantasy, they either scuttle away or fling moonbat guano at the truth teller.

70 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:31:11pm

re: #68 HoosierHoops

I like my Oklahoma plates..There is no religious overtone to it..

Crazy law suit. Crazier decision.

71 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:42:07pm

Heh. A lot of people believe the Honey Boo Boo one was reals.

72 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:49:33pm

re: #71 Gus

Heh. A lot of people believe the Honey Boo Boo one was reals.

That’s because its hard to believe that there’s a cheap stunk the media won’t stoop to. Heck, FNC is likely going to ask Sarah Palin about the NSA scandal, and you’d have a better chance of getting a coherent answer from Honey Boo Boo.

73 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:50:42pm
74 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:55:46pm

re: #24 PhillyPretzel

He believes in if you tell a lie often and strongly it will become the “truth.”

I thought that was a conservative thing.

75 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:59:16pm
76 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 8:59:55pm

re: #74 stabby

I thought that was a conservative thing.

No, it’s a reality denial thing and a nutcase thing. Just because the wingnuts have been worse since Obama’s election in 2008, does not mean that the moonbats of the far left have become sane. They’re still crazy and this scandal has brought them back into the spotlight.

77 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:01:33pm

re: #75 Gus

Huh?

78 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:02:15pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Huh?

Flashback.

79 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:08:18pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Huh?

Was browsing my Twitter gallery. Saw that and decided to post it. Make more sense now? Huh? Huh? /// ;)

80 jaunte  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:08:46pm

re: #73 Gus

“The NSA is monitoring every single conversation and every single form of human behavior anywhere in the world.”

This includes gold-buying and photoshopping.

81 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:09:07pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Exactly why does he want to deny the reality that our security state follows our laws?

It’s not as if those laws are all that stringent, but somehow it’s not enough to criticize what we already knew existed, somehow we have to invent fictional problems to get excited over.

82 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:11:42pm

I’m getting tired of people being called “whistle blowers” whenever they betray privacy.

It’s not “whistle blowing” unless:
1) you’re pointing at a specific law being broken or some specific wrong
AND
2) you’re saying something that people didn’t already know

83 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:13:26pm

re: #80 jaunte

“The NSA is monitoring every single conversation and every single form of human behavior anywhere in the world.”

This includes gold-buying and photoshopping.

Wow. Not even Big Brother is that good.

84 Lidane  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:15:23pm

re: #75 Gus

Those bombings only happened because Eric Holder decided to investigate Trayvon Martin’s death!

/George Zimmerman’s father

85 Lidane  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:16:51pm

re: #80 jaunte

“The NSA is monitoring every single conversation and every single form of human behavior anywhere in the world.”

This includes gold-buying and photoshopping.

Dear Greenwald,

This is real life, not Person of Interest or Minority Report. Dial back the paranoia a few ticks.

Sincerely,
Me

86 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:18:18pm

re: #85 Lidane

Dear Greenwald,

This is real life, not Person of Interest or Minority Report. Dial back the paranoia a few ticks.

Sincerely,
Me

Unfortunately, paranoia is these freaks’ stock in trade. Make the people afraid, then they give you their money.

87 jaunte  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:20:09pm

Sorry I misquoted GG. The NSA isn’t yet monitoring “every single conversation and every single form of human behavior anywhere in the world”, but that’s reportedly their plan.

88 jaunte  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:21:17pm

Oh yeah, and that.

89 teresa  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:24:17pm

Really interesting and well done. I’ve been reading each of your blogs, incredibly informative, and you know what, someone needs to stay on Greenwald’s ass, you keep that up. Thanks.

90 Stanghazi  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:25:01pm

re: #84 Lidane

/George Zimmerman’s father

OMG. Read the article and his list of the real racists, including the NBA.

That family has a major problem. And they are grifting off it.

91 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:25:34pm

Edward Snowden: Classified US Data Shows Hong Kong Hacking Targets | South China Morning Post

The detailed records - which cannot be independently verified - show specific dates and the IP addresses of computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland hacked by the National Security Agency over a four-year period.

They also include information indicating whether an attack on a computer was ongoing or had been completed, along with an amount of additional operational information.

The small sample data suggests secret and illegal NSA attacks on Hong Kong computers had a success rate of more than 75 per cent, according to the documents. The information only pertains to attacks on civilian computers with no reference to Chinese military operations, Snowden said.

“I don’t know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only that using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines is a violation of law. It’s ethically dubious,” Snowden said in the interview on Wednesday.

92 Weet  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:28:54pm

re: #73 Gus

Buy gold now.

I haven’t laughed that hard all year. Thanks

93 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:29:28pm

re: #92 Weet

Buy gold now.

I haven’t laughed that hard all year. Thanks

YW

94 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:29:50pm


[Tapping foot.]

95 jaunte  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:31:33pm

“It’s ethically dubious,” Snowden said.

96 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:34:01pm

re: #95 jaunte

It’s ethically dubious,” Snowden said.

Paderp. Then he went off on a rant in the end.

97 wheat-dogghazi  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:44:26pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

Is Snowden deliberately ignoring China’s own infiltration of sites in the USA, including the NY Times, Bloomberg and WSJ following their coverage of “Grandpa” Wen Jiabao’s family’s fortunes? There is clear evidence that China has itself been hacking into American systems, as anyone working for the NSA or Booz Allen would know.

What a fucking idiot. According to the SCMP, a total of 200 people took to the streets to support him. In a city of several million people, 200 supporters.

98 simoom  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:45:03pm


Not just “destroy privacy & anonymity” worldwide, but also “monitor every single conversation and every single form of human behavior anywhere in the world.” Though I guess both Greenwald quotes are similar.

[#41]

99 Gus  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:46:54pm

I really doubt that they’re recording every conversation.

100 engineer cat  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 9:48:16pm

Preliminary results in Iran’s presidential elections showed moderate cleric Hassan Rohani in the lead

…which leaves me wondering what “moderate” could possibly mean in this context

101 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 10:08:36pm

re: #99 Gus

I really doubt that they’re recording every conversation.

And then you have to wonder if they’d want to record every conversation. For a nation our size, it just seems a valuable waste of time and resources to focus on everyone.

102 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 10:09:53pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

Edward Snowden: Classified US Data Shows Hong Kong Hacking Targets | South China Morning Post

Still don’t know why this guy went to work with NSA if he had a problem with stuff like this. He’s either full of shit or even more naive than I thought. And I got to love that he’s acting all puffy and outraged about this talking to a Chinese newspaper.

103 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 10:23:48pm

re: #81 stabby

Exactly why does he want to deny the reality that our security state follows our laws?

It’s not as if those laws are all that stringent, but somehow it’s not enough to criticize what we already knew existed, somehow we have to invent fictional problems to get excited over.

Because the “lawless security apparatus” is part of the fantasy. The people who buy into the fantasy do so because they don’t want to deal with reality. They’ve come to find their fantasized ‘freedom fighter’ persona fulfilling, and it is something for which they will deny reality before giving it up.

The reasons for the acceptance of the fantasy differ and for the most part moonbats buy into it for different reasons than wingnuts. But the disconnect from reality remains a constant.

104 stabby  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 10:35:11pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

I think the reality that they don’t want to deal with is the danger that is the reason we NEED a security apparatus.

Let me add an observation. All this talk about how successful we were in not so much catching the perpetrators of the Boston bombing but getting his little brother to run him over :/ rather ignores the fact that success should be defined as “there was no bombing”

105 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 10:39:58pm

re: #104 stabby

I think the reality that they don’t want to deal with is the danger that is the reason we NEED a security apparatus.

Let me add an observation. All this talk about how successful we were in not so much catching the perpetrators of the Boston bombing but getting his little brother to run him over :/ rather ignores the fact that success should be defined as “there was no bombing”

In that you are correct. I had hesitated to mention that part since my standard answer to that might provoke a late-night debate I’m too tired to engage in.

Good Night, All.

106 Cheechako  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 10:46:37pm

re: #99 Gus

I really doubt that they’re recording every conversation.

How many time do you want to listen to two teenagers say “You hang up first!” “No, you hang up first!!”

107 Cheechako  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 11:03:20pm

Gosh darn…the sun has not yet set and I’ve killed the thread!

108 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 14, 2013 11:08:18pm

Is this going to be on Youtube? —Brian
Palantir Night Live - Mike Hurley & Brian Cunningham

Is this going to remain on Youtube? [edit] I’m guessing yes, since Palantir put it there.

109 KiTA  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 1:13:43am

So, we’re being played for fools by Greenwald and Snowden, right? This is as much a scandal as Benghazi?

110 dragonath  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 1:53:56am

The BBC has cut ties with its affiliate in Turkey.

“The BBC is suspending its partnership with NTV in Turkey with immediate effect following NTV’s decision not to transmit the BBC programme Dunya Gundemi [World Agenda] today.

“Any interference in BBC broadcasting is totally unacceptable and at a time of considerable international concern about the situation in Turkey the BBC’s impartial service to audiences is vital.”

111 sagehen  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 2:02:53am

re: #100 engineer cat

Preliminary results in Iran’s presidential elections showed moderate cleric Hassan Rohani in the lead

…which leaves me wondering what “moderate” could possibly mean in this context

He’s the closest to “liberal” of the people who were conservative enough to be allowed to be on the ballot. (Mousavi and Rafsanjani are both still under house arrest, have been for years.)

112 Occam's Guillotine  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 3:20:40am

Screw Geico and its caveman and its lizard with a red hot poker. My payment increased 80% in one month and I am not able to get any explanation for this because their system is down for “routine maintenance.” This is IT speak for “Reality has caught up with our last jury-rigged work-around and we have to cobble up a new one.”
Speaking of IT quackery, there was a break in at my office building tonight. A passerby heard the howling of the alarm and called the cops, who then called me. I was almost there when the alarm company called to report that my alarm had gone off. It took their responder another 30 minutes to arrive, by which time the cops had wrapped up their investigation and left. There was no damage other than a broken door glass. I was only there to finish nailing a piece of plywood over the door. Later I called the alarm dispatcher to find out why the system had taken so long to notify anyone. He told me he had gotten the call late himself. It turns out they don’t do the monitoring themselves but farm it out to a boiler room operation in some third world hole, like Bangladesh or maybe Amarillo. He couldn’t get the exact times of the various calls for me: It seems that the alarm company’s computer system had gone down, their IT guy was not answering his phone, and the dispatcher had been told to close up shop and go home. This left the various clients without service until the IT guy can be rousted and set to work fixing things. All things considered, it’s probably not much of a loss.

113 Occam's Guillotine  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 3:30:34am

Actually, Amarillo seems to be a much better run city than Lubbock. Of course, being better run than Lubbock is a little like being the leper with the most fingers.

114 Stoatly  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 3:55:38am

re: #113 Occam’s Guillotine


Today in Leper News

115 Stoatly  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 3:59:46am

The Hobbit: The Musical
Youtube Video

116 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 5:10:56am

re: #114 Stoatly

Today in Leper News

Dated a girl who thought there was a hockey player that was a leper

She heard the announcer say ” ,, and there’s a faceoff in the corner”

/

117 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 5:12:36am

re: #112 Occam’s Guillotine

Screw Geico and its caveman and its lizard with a red hot poker. My payment increased 80% in one month and I am not able to get any explanation

I’ve had GEICO for years with absolutely no issues. Two accidents covered with no rate increases over the years

118 lawhawk  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 5:23:26am

re: #115 Stoatly

No dramatic telling is complete without Conan… the Musical

Youtube Video

119 Stoatly  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 5:33:38am

re: #116 sattv4u2

Dated a girl who thought there was a hockey player that was a leper

She heard the announcer say ” ,, and there’s a faceoff in the corner”

/

This is another case where there needs to be a button that is neither an up-ding or down-ding but denotes pursing of the lips

120 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 5:41:11am

re: #119 Stoatly

This is another case where there needs to be a button that is neither an up-ding or down-ding but denotes pursing of the lips

c’mon ,,, you know you want to,,,, put the PC aside !!!
/

121 Tigger2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:15:21am

More and more now days it seems like Corporations want to screw their employees.

thetimes-tribune.com

Woman sues McDonald’s franchisee for payroll debit

122 Joanne  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:18:28am

Texas Gov. Rick Perry: Americans have no right to freedom from religion


rawstory.com

123 Joanne  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:19:26am

re: #117 sattv4u2

Screw Geico and its caveman and its lizard with a red hot poker. My payment increased 80% in one month and I am not able to get any explanation

I’ve had GEICO for years with absolutely no issues. Two accidents covered with no rate increases over the years

Ditto. They’ve always been great.

124 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:45:04am

re: #121 Tigger2

More and more now days it seems like Corporations want to screw their employees.

thetimes-tribune.com

I know (have known) people that work (have worked) at McDonalds (both cooperate owned as well as franchisees). Looks as if it’s that particular franchise rather than cooperate policy

Terrible (the payroll/ debit card part) and should be stopped immediately but it looks as if they could have opted for direct deposit

125 Joanne  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:46:14am

…

126 McSpiff  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:52:30am

re: #124 sattv4u2

I know (have known) people that work (have worked) at McDonalds (both cooperate owned as well as franchisees). Looks as if it’s that particular franchise rather than cooperate policy

Terrible (the payroll/ debit card part) and should be stopped immediately but it looks as if they could have opted for direct deposit

Really shouldn’t be legal in my opinion. Way too open to abuse..

127 Joanne  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:54:57am
128 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:56:28am

re: #125 Joanne

see 124

Seems to be a particular franchise, not “McDonalds” (the corp)

129 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 6:59:19am

re: #124 sattv4u2

Terrible (the payroll/ debit card part) and should be stopped immediately but it looks as if they could have opted for direct deposit

This is from the article:

Ms. Gunshannon said the manager of the Muellers’ Shavertown location refused to issue her a paper paycheck or pay via direct deposit, saying, “We only pay on the card.”

Maybe the employer could have opted for direct deposit, but they did not offer that option to the employees.

130 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:00:24am

re: #126 McSpiff

Really shouldn’t be legal in my opinion. Way too open to abuse..

It is abuse. The bank gets part of the employee’s wages in fees. Not legal in any states I’ve worked in.

131 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:01:36am

re: #127 Joanne

twitter.com

That will reward the banks more, while punishing McDonald’s only a tiny bit.

132 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:05:46am

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

((I pass by no less than 5 McDonalds on the way ,,,,hmmmmm,,,)

133 McSpiff  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:06:08am

re: #132 sattv4u2

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

((I pass by no less than 5 McDonalds on the way ,,,,hmmmmm,,,)

Sounds like breakfast is required

134 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:08:14am

Mornin’ everyone…(is satty gone yet?) ;)

135 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:08:45am

re: #132 sattv4u2

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

((I pass by no less than 5 McDonalds on the way ,,,,hmmmmm,,,)

You really need to get that blinker fixed.

136 Joanne  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:08:55am

It’s more for bad PR for the corporation that I made that suggestion. These people shouldn’t have to sue. McD Corp should step in.

137 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:10:26am

re: #136 Joanne

It’s more for bad PR for the corporation that I made that suggestion. These people shouldn’t have to sue. McD Corp should step in.

The faster the better. They could win some points with thousands of employees if they did.

138 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:11:49am

re: #135 darthstar

You really need to get that blinker fixed.

yeah. I have an eye doctor appointment next week!!!

oh ,, THAT blinker!!! ‘

139 McSpiff  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:11:59am

re: #137 wrenchwench

The faster the better. They could win some points with thousands of employees if they did.

I’m sure McDonald’s Corp is frequently shocked at how crappy some of their franchisees are.

140 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:12:25am

re: #136 Joanne

It’s more for bad PR for the corporation that I made that suggestion. These people shouldn’t have to sue. McD Corp should step in.

My guess is that they will,,,, but quietly!

141 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:12:40am

Morning in New Mexico:

flickr.com

From a few days ago. It’s still burning.

142 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:12:54am

re: #127 Joanne

The J.P. Morgan Chase payroll card carries fees for nearly every type of transaction, according to the lawsuit, including a $1.50 charge for ATM withdrawals, $5 for over-the-counter cash withdrawals, $1 to check the balance, 75 cents per online bill payment and $10 per month if the card is left inactive for more than three months.

Honey, do we have enough on the card to go to the movies?
Lemme check…yes.
Are you sure?
Lemme double-check…no.

143 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:13:14am

re: #139 McSpiff

I’m sure McDonald’s Corp is frequently shocked at how crappy some of their franchisees are.

And I’m sure some of those franchises become shocked at how McDonalds responds

144 sattv4u2  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:13:58am

OUTTSIES

145 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:14:51am

re: #144 sattv4u2

OUTTSIES

Bye…remember, for every McDonald’s you pass, you also pass seven churches.

146 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:17:42am
147 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:22:31am
148 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:48:14am
149 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:48:23am

She never mentions her faith. “Christian”? “Person of faith”? “Methodist”? “Believer”? Nothing.

150 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:49:53am

Derp.

151 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:58:11am

Derpity do Sally Quinn.

152 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:02:14am

re: #113 Occam’s Guillotine

Actually, Amarillo seems to be a much better run city than Lubbock. Of course, being better run than Lubbock is a little like being the leper with the most fingers.

During the Middle Ages, though, being the leper with the most fingers sometimes meant that if you were also a man you might also be able join the Knights of St. Lazarus and go on a Crusade. Those few lepers who could do this tended to do so, as their enforced chastity made a life dedicated to the Lord’s service easier to accept and the prospect of death in battle was a good bit more desirable than death from leprosy. Especially since, by the Catholic teaching of the day, if you were killed fighting for Christ’s sake on Crusade you went straight to Heaven.

153 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:05:12am

Washington Post:
☑ Gets PRISM (NSA) all wrong.
☑ Concern Trolls About POTUS Travel
☑ Concren Trolls About Religion

154 Lidane  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:05:17am

Morning all! This just happened:

Facebook Releases Data, Including All National Security Requests

For the six months ending December 31, 2012, the total number of user-data requests Facebook received from any and all government entities in the U.S. (including local, state, and federal, and including criminal and national security-related requests) - was between 9,000 and 10,000. These requests run the gamut - from things like a local sheriff trying to find a missing child, to a federal marshal tracking a fugitive, to a police department investigating an assault, to a national security official investigating a terrorist threat. The total number of Facebook user accounts for which data was requested pursuant to the entirety of those 9-10 thousand requests was between 18,000 and 19,000 accounts.

With more than 1.1 billion monthly active users worldwide, this means that a tiny fraction of one percent of our user accounts were the subject of any kind of U.S. state, local, or federal U.S. government request (including criminal and national security-related requests) in the past six months. We hope this helps put into perspective the numbers involved, and lays to rest some of the hyperbolic and false assertions in some recent press accounts about the frequency and scope of the data requests that we receive.

155 McSpiff  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:08:21am

re: #154 Lidane

Morning all! This just happened:

Facebook Releases Data, Including All National Security Requests

What? You gotta start small when setting up your first Gulag.

156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:09:13am

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

There were actually a lot of ‘healthy’ lepers. There are two forms of leprosy, wet (Lepromatous) and dry (Tuberculoid). The former is the one that attacks the mucus membranes and leads to the really awful degeneration and infects easily, the latter tends to attack ‘only’ the skin and extremities, is much much harder to transmit, and people with it, even untreated, can live a long and otherwise relatively healthy time.

157 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:09:57am

re: #149 Gus

She never mentions her faith. “Christian”? “Person of faith”? “Methodist”? “Believer”? Nothing.

How ‘bout “High Priestess of None of Your Fuck’n Business”?

158 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:14:14am

re: #157 Decatur Deb

How ‘bout “High Priestess of None of Your Fuck’n Business”?

We need to know more about her shoe collection too!!

159 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:14:31am

re: #156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

There were actually a lot of ‘healthy’ lepers. There are two forms of leprosy, wet (Lepromatous) and dry (Tuberculoid). The former is the one that attacks the mucus membranes and leads to the really awful degeneration and infects easily, the latter tends to attack ‘only’ the skin and extremities, is much much harder to transmit, and people with it, even untreated, can live a long and otherwise relatively healthy time.

That I did not really understand. Thank You.

160 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:17:15am

No one expects the Texas Inquisition:

Texas gov. signs ‘Merry Christmas’ law; says religious freedom is not freedom from religion

startribune.com

161 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:17:24am

re: #149 Gus

She never mentions her faith. “Christian”? “Person of faith”? “Methodist”? “Believer”? Nothing.

Isn’t a “Believer” a type of Monkee?

Youtube Video

162 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:18:08am
163 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:18:38am

re: #153 Gus

re: #157 Decatur Deb

You two are missing a very important point about the importance of not letting the terrorists the NSA goes after disrupt our lives:

If we members of the vast members of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy are not able to use this opportunity to indulge in our habit of obsessive Clinton-bashing then the terrorists will have WON!!

/////////////

164 Lidane  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:19:54am
165 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:20:20am

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

re: #157 Decatur Deb

You two are missing a very important point about the importance of not letting the terrorists the NSA goes after disrupt our lives:

If we members of the vast members of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy are not able to use this opportunity to indulge in our habit of obsessive Clinton-bashing then the terrorists will have WON!!

/////////////

Are you really part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, or just the Half-Vast Right Wing Conspiracy?

166 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:22:14am

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

That I did not really understand. Thank You.

It was a common misconception at the time, too, since medical knowledge was pretty, well, medieval. Image: rimshot.jpeg

The contemporaries at that time, of course, mostly attributed the ‘healthy’ form of leprosy to faith in God and divine protection. Also, there were probably quite a few sub-clinical lepers, or dudes who went a-Crusading, got tubercular leprosy, but with all their scar tissue, gout, and other stuff couldn’t really differentiate it from their other maladies.

A friend of mine has tubercular leprosy that he picked up on missionary work. He has a few dead patches of skin but that’s about it.

167 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:22:23am

re: #164 Lidane

Who said the adventure and spontaneity had gone from air travel?

168 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:22:34am

An interesting tidbit

Yahoo Supplied Data to PRISM Only After Losing Scrappy FISA Fight

It’s not clear the extent of the data the government sought, but the company fought back against it on Fourth Amendment grounds that such a request required a probable-cause warrant and that the surveillance request was too broad and unreasonable and, therefore, violated the Constitution.

Yahoo also felt that warrantless requests placed discretion for data collection “entirely in the hands of the Executive Branch without prior judicial involvement” thereby ceding to the government “overly broad power that invites abuse” and possible errors that would result in scooping up data of U.S. citizens as well.

169 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:24:28am

re: #162 Gus

Which 47 attended, I wonder. The article makes clear that Diane Feinstein attended and Rand Paul did not, but who were the other 46 who were there?

The only other certain attendees would be Sens Graham (R, SC) and McCain, both of whom take this sort of matter seriously as Feinstein does. Presumably those from Maryland, West Virginia and Virginia attended, since they have the shortest distance to travel.

170 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:24:37am

This is me mowing the lawn, the “waiting for the damn battery to recharge” phase of mowing the lawn.

171 Lidane  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:24:41am
172 piratedan  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:31:17am

re: #161 darthstar

Isn’t a “Believer” a type of Monkee?

[Embedded content]

not a trace of doubt in my mind……

173 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:31:31am

re: #171 Lidane

I love the sound of moonbat head explosions in the morning.

Sounds like…victory.

174 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:33:13am

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

I love the sound of moonbat head explosions in the morning.

Sounds like…victory.

President Romney must be so happy right now.

175 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:35:48am

re: #174 darthstar

Heh. I just imagined President Romney trying to speak to and reassure the nation about something like this. Even a lot of those who voted for him wouldn’t really buy it— I bet Dark wouldn’t, since he saw through him early on as a man with very few discernible principles.

176 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:37:47am

re: #174 darthstar

President Romney must be so happy right now.

Must you be a killjoy on this matter? I’ve defended President Obama repeatedly regarding the Snowden Affair. But it happens that many of those going after the president are moonbats, and thus in my defense I get the bonus of watching moonbats FAIL.

I’m anti-moonbat, but pro-sanity.

177 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:38:13am

re: #175 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Heh. I just imagined President Romney trying to speak to and reassure the nation about something like this. Even a lot of those who voted for him wouldn’t really buy it— I bet Dark wouldn’t, since he saw through him early on as a man with very few discernible principles.

Set the Hyper-stutter on damage control mode.

178 Joanne  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:39:37am

re: #175 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Heh. I just imagined President Romney trying to speak to and reassure the nation about something like this. Even a lot of those who voted for him wouldn’t really buy it— I bet Dark wouldn’t, since he saw through him early on as a man with very few discernible principles.

If there was a President Romney, nobody important would care. Lefties wouldn’t count. Snowden would be a traitor agin’ US. The WaPo would report that Obama set up a sekret program and Romney righted all wrongs. We’d be bombing China to get Snowden back, who’d then be transferred to Gitmo for the duration.

179 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:41:52am

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

Must you be a killjoy on this matter? I’ve defended President Obama repeatedly regarding the Snowden Affair. But it happens that many of those going after the president are moonbats, and thus in my defense I get the bonus of watching moonbats FAIL.

I’m anti-moonbat, but pro-sanity.

You’re right. The hard lefties are pretty fucking annoying right now…and they’re mixing with the Rand Paultards and Beck followers. If they cross pollinate, and vote together, they could screw up the primaries in 2016 for both parties, and we’ll end up with a choice between Bachman/Palin on the GOP side and Cusack/Nader on the DNC.

180 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:43:25am

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

Must you be a killjoy on this matter? I’ve defended President Obama repeatedly regarding the Snowden Affair. But it happens that many of those going after the president are moonbats, and thus in my defense I get the bonus of watching moonbats FAIL.

I’m anti-moonbat, but pro-sanity.

‘Pro-sanity’ would preclude even a partial defense of Trent Flake.

/reads too many Spy novels comments.

181 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:43:32am
182 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:44:30am

Good article, actually. And yes, I loved Grape Ape.

Okay…time to run the dogs.

183 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:44:39am

re: #181 darthstar

Been saying that on and off for over a week now. OK, maybe just a few Tweets.

184 Lidane  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:45:00am

I posted the Facebook numbers above, but here’s Microsoft:

Microsoft’s U.S. law enforcement and national security requests for last half of 2012

This afternoon, the FBI and DOJ have given us permission to publish some additional data, and we are publishing it straight away. However, we continue to believe that what we are permitted to publish continues to fall short of what is needed to help the community understand and debate these issues.

Here is what the data shows: For the six months ended December 31, 2012, Microsoft received between 6,000 and 7,000 criminal and national security warrants, subpoenas and orders affecting between 31,000 and 32,000 consumer accounts from U.S. governmental entities (including local, state and federal). This only impacts a tiny fraction of Microsoft’s global customer base.

So much for TEH EBIL GUBMINT having access to everything everywhere everytime. More Greenwald fail.

185 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:47:18am

re: #148 Gus

The question is, does the Lord want Hillary to be president? Does she want to be president? Pundits took her tweet to be the launch of a presidential campaign. Yet it’s perfectly obvious that America will not vote for someone who is not a self-affirmed believer in God. We have a black president, and we will have a female president, a Hispanic president, a gay president and probably even a Muslim president before we have an atheist president. Those who talk openly about their own faith are more likely to appeal to the American public than those who don’t; we have even seen many shamelessly exploit religion for their own political purposes.

186 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:47:45am

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

The problem is not just moonbats. My dad, being a conservative Catholic Democrat, is very far from a moonbat, but he fell for this story, too.

Part of the reason is that there is a large amount of government overreach— asset forfeiture, stop-and-frisk, and there’s a perception, real or not, of the militarization of the police. I think also a lot of the anger is displaced fear— people suddenly realizing how much of their lives exist as online data, how someone with access could know so many of their secrets so quickly, and that embarasses and enrages them.

This is one of the main reasons I think that we should roll back a lot of NSA powers and police powers. The trust between citizen and police is very, very useful in stopping crime, and it’s something that’s been depressed for a long time in the US. The trust in government is likewise harmed by a perception of huge government agencies sorting through your data.

I think this is an essential part of human nature, the desire for privacy and the fear of police powers. I don’t think it is purely American, and I think it will never go away and can only be partially suppressed. What’s really needed is trust.

However, we likewise need to stand up and take terrorist attacks bravely, like the British took the Blitz, not letting it compromise us. That is, I think, a winnable psychological fight, challenging people to be brave is more likely to succeed than challenging people to be unafraid.

187 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:49:11am

re: #179 darthstar

You’re right. The hard lefties are pretty fucking annoying right now…and they’re mixing with the Rand Paultards and Beck followers. If they cross pollinate, and vote together, they could screw up the primaries in 2016 for both parties, and we’ll end up with a choice between Bachman/Palin on the GOP side and Cusack/Nader on the DNC.

Pity they couldn’t all flounce from both parties simultaneously. They could their own Insane Party, spew and DERP to their hearts content, then lose the elections and let rational people actually make decisions.

188 Lidane  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:52:02am

OK. I’m a dork. How do you Page things now? The Create a Page button on the front page isn’t working for me and I don’t get how the bookmarklet works.

189 chadu  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:52:09am

OT…

I am $400 away from bankruptcy.

If any Lizards can Paypal me funds, that would solve this. (chadu@yahoo.com)

I offer my RPG work, entire library, to anyone who helps out.

That would be DEAD INSIDE, TRUTH & JUSTICE, ZORCERER of ZO, and SWASHBUCKLERS of the 7 SKIES.

I am ashamed to ask this.

I have been working out a loan from my 401K, but some bills won’t wait.

Please help, if you can.

Chad

190 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:54:11am

re: #186 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yes! Partly generational too I suspect. If you grew up with the internet and social networks you probably have a lesser sense of privacy than people my age or up. The internet came up in my middle age. In the back of my mind is a print era sense of privacy.

191 bratwurst  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:54:47am
192 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:55:13am

My dad has influenced a lot of my political thinking— not, I’m afraid, in a positive way, but as an example of how a really, really smart guy can fall for a lot of easily-disproved stuff.

When I was young, he didn’t believe in evolution. Later on, he didn’t believe in global warming. Then even when he did believe in it, he thought ‘climategate’ was a real thing. He almost fell for vaccine stuff but luckily my grandmother slapped him around on that one hard enough to keep him out of it. He falls for lots of those “Government pays nine million dollars for wrenches” stories. He falls for ‘welfare’ stuff but in his defense his brother is an actual scammer who has abused every single goddamn ‘entitlement out there’. I’m proud to say that he never falls for race-baiting stories or anti-Muslim stories.

I put this down to his lack of scientific education, more than anything else. He’s a good-hearted guy with lots of pity and sympathy, but he doesn’t understand statistics, he doesn’t have a basic scientific foundation, and he generally fails at analyzing the probability of a rumor.

193 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:55:22am

re: #186 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The problem is not just moonbats. My dad, being a conservative Catholic Democrat, is very far from a moonbat, but he fell for this story, too.

Part of the reason is that there is a large amount of government overreach— asset forfeiture, stop-and-frisk, and there’s a perception, real or not, of the militarization of the police. I think also a lot of the anger is displaced fear— people suddenly realizing how much of their lives exist as online data, how someone with access could know so many of their secrets so quickly, and that embarasses and enrages them.

This is one of the main reasons I think that we should roll back a lot of NSA powers and police powers. The trust between citizen and police is very, very useful in stopping crime, and it’s something that’s been depressed for a long time in the US. The trust in government is likewise harmed by a perception of huge government agencies sorting through your data.

I think this is an essential part of human nature, the desire for privacy and the fear of police powers. I don’t think it is purely American, and I think it will never go away and can only be partially suppressed. What’s really needed is trust.

However, we likewise need to stand up and take terrorist attacks bravely, like the British took the Blitz, not letting it compromise us. That is, I think, a winnable psychological fight, challenging people to be brave is more likely to succeed than challenging people to be unafraid.

I’m going to ask you to revise and extend on that last, frankly because the British didn’t take the Blitz lying down. They made great efforts to counter the German air raids, including the introduction of radar onto night fighters and major AA deployments. The Royal Air Force also bombed Germany repeatedly during that time, and the Royal Navy blockaded Germany. The British government did all it practically could to reduce the Blitz and its impact.

194 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:57:51am

re: #188 Lidane

Charles has been updating the marklet. Maybe you have the old one? Can you delete the old one and put in the new one? Just drag it onto your toolbar.

195 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:00:04am

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

I meant more of an attitude than anything else. We react to terrorist attacks with, well, terror. I’d like that to stop. I want us to not be afraid.

196 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:02:08am

re: #195 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Something like this?

197 makeitstop  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:05:29am

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

The only other certain attendees would be Sens Graham (R, SC) and McCain, both of whom take this sort of matter seriously as Feinstein does.

The same McCain and Graham who skipped a briefing on Benghazi in order to hold a press conference demanding more information about Benghazi?

You can’t be serious.

198 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:08:02am

re: #195 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

re: #196 ProTARDISLiberal

Something like this?

That’s a tough sentiment to foster in today’s media environment. The press spends a good bit of its time scaring the public to ensure the public will continue watching the news and buying news publications. Far from “Keep Calm and Carry On” is the modern media saying of “If it bleeds, it leads.”

199 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:11:19am

Poll (Murica):
Would you vote for a Christian serial killer for president?
89% Yes
Would you vote for an atheist biologist for president?
12% Yes

200 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:12:08am

re: #196 ProTARDISLiberal

Glad you’re here, for I had something I wanted to link to for you. Please read the whole thing, but I suspect you’ll find some satisfaction in the following paragraph:

The U.S. is having hard time persuading Pakistan to pay attention to the successful anti-terrorism measures implemented in Bangladesh. Pakistan does not like to be reminded of anything to do with Bangladesh, which used to be East Pakistan and part of a much larger Pakistan. But the Bangladeshis rebelled in the early 1970s and West Pakistan (all that is now left of the original Pakistan) was unable to put down the uprising. After that defeat Pakistan adopted Islamic radicalism as a new policy and Islamic terrorism as a weapon. Bangladesh made peace with India (which supported the rebels) and discouraged Islamic radicalism. Despite the growing popularity (among Moslems) of Islamic radicalism in the last three decades, Bangladesh has been largely free of it.

201 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:20:28am
202 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:20:43am

He has also vowed to restore diplomatic ties with Iran’s old enemy, the United States, which cut relations with Iran in the aftermath of the 1979 seizure of the US embassy in Tehran by Islamist students.

203 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:25:30am

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

Getting Pakistan to listen is near impossible. Their government has used the Taliban as a puppet since the 90’s, and Pakistan directed aid in the 90s to those precursors to the Taliban.

Our focus on Pakistan now should be towards causing it to splinter. The Balochs want out, and you could probably push the Sindhis to do so as well.

The Two-State theory in South Asia is idiotic.

204 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:26:17am

Weird Nut Daily has done some shitty things before, but this one sets a whole new standard of rot:

The conspiracy website WorldNetDaily is promoting a company in Idaho that sells bullets coated with “pork-infused paint” that are supposed to “deter Islamists from martyrdom.”

The company, Jihawg Ammo, is apparently playing on the Islamic tradition of not eating pork, hatred of Muslims and love of guns.

WorldNetDaily reports:

A company in northern Idaho has come up with a culturally sensitive approach. Jihawg Ammo has developed a proprietary system for infusing ballistic paint with pork. The special pork-infused paint is then applied to the bullets of loaded ammunition.

The inclusion of pork in the paint makes the bullets haraam, or unclean. Under Islamic law, anyone who comes in contact with any haraam item is then unclean and must engage in a cleansing ritual. No unclean person can be admitted into Paradise. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 72 virgins.

I first found this story here. Should I Page it?

205 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:27:09am

re: #203 ProTARDISLiberal

Getting Pakistan to listen is near impossible. Their government has used the Taliban as a puppet since the 90’s, and Pakistan directed aid in the 90s to those precursors to the Taliban.

Our focus on Pakistan now should be towards causing it to splinter. The Balochs want out, and you could probably push the Sindhis to do so as well.

The Two-State theory in South Asia is idiotic.

The problem is that Pakistan has nukes. A splintering process would risk those being up for grabs.

206 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:30:34am

re: #179 darthstar

You’re right. The hard lefties are pretty fucking annoying right now…and they’re mixing with the Rand Paultards and Beck followers. If they cross pollinate, and vote together, they could screw up the primaries in 2016 for both parties, and we’ll end up with a choice between Bachman/Palin on the GOP side and Cusack/Nader on the DNC.

At which point I will volunteer for the Mission to Mars. semi/

207 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:30:55am

re: #205 Dark_Falcon

True. I would hope we could keep track of them. There has to be someone in the program in control of the nukes who is sane, that could we use to keep tabs on the nukes.

208 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:42:18am
209 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:47:24am

re: #202 Gus

He has also vowed to restore diplomatic ties with Iran’s old enemy, the United States, which cut relations with Iran in the aftermath of the 1979 seizure of the US embassy in Tehran by Islamist students.

That’ll piss off the warhawks. Does this mean Ahmadinejad is now as irrelevant as I always said he was in the grand scheme of things?

210 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:49:26am

Damn…wife just showed me this menu. Planning a little celebration dinner there soon. But does this look tasty or what?

coirestaurant.com

211 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:50:32am

re: #209 darthstar

That’ll piss off the warhawks. Does this mean Ahmadinejad is now as irrelevant as I always said he was in the grand scheme of things?

Not sure…

212 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:52:19am

In any case. Dinnerjacket is gone.

213 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:53:58am

I’m noticing a weird ‘mootbat’ theme taking over the Snowden narrative, and that’s that “We don’t know anything about PRISM, that’s why we need to learn more.” They’ve apparently understood that the initial claims have fallen down.

214 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:54:01am

re: #211 Gus

Not sure…

They should give him a free ‘appreciation weekend’ at some Tel Aviv resort and tell him when he returns, he’s free to rekindle his political future.

215 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:54:46am

re: #209 darthstar

That’ll piss off the warhawks. Does this mean Ahmadinejad is now as irrelevant as I always said he was in the grand scheme of things?

You seriously don’t want to piss off a Warhawk.

216 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:55:18am
217 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:55:28am

re: #213 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m noticing a weird ‘mootbat’ theme taking over the Snowden narrative, and that’s that “We don’t know anything about PRISM, that’s why we need to learn more.” They’ve apparently understood that the initial claims have fallen down.

But the hard core paranoids are still very defensive about Greenwald.

218 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:56:40am

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

You seriously don’t want to piss off a Warhawk.

That’s a completely non-functional design and 100% vulnerable to a lateral assault.

219 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:57:24am

re: #218 darthstar

That’s a completely non-functional design and 100% vulnerable to a lateral assault.

Just like the GOP.

220 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:57:59am
221 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:58:47am

re: #210 darthstar

Damn…wife just showed me this menu. Planning a little celebration dinner there soon. But does this look tasty or what?

coirestaurant.com

Burnt hay? Otherwise, yes. (And I kinda like hay, but not burnt. Ok, I admit, I never tried it burnt.)

222 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:00:23am
223 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:01:58am

re: #218 darthstar

That’s a completely non-functional design and 100% vulnerable to a lateral assault.

The Hell you say! Warhawk Primes are lethal. They mount 4 Clantech Extended-Range Particle Projector Cannons with a targeting computer. In Battletech they are a feared sight. they do, however, tend to attract a lot of weapons fire.

224 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:02:05am

re: #221 wrenchwench

Burnt hay? Otherwise, yes. (And I kinda like hay, but not burnt. Ok, I admit, I never tried it burnt.)

Probably just a garnish to add a smoky flavor. It’s molecular cooking (food science) done right.

225 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:02:33am

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

The Hell you say! Warhawk Primes are lethal. They mount 4 Clantech Extended-Range Particle Projector Cannons with a targeting computer. In Battletech they are a feared sight. they do, however, tend to attract a lot of weapons fire.

They can’t pivot.

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:04:17am

RWC - you still around? Got a question or three about California gun law regarding transfers from out of state. Thanks!

227 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:05:05am

re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

Yeah, still hanging out.

228 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:05:13am

re: #209 darthstar

Added bonus:

If he can go through with that, we can withdraw from detestable Persian Gulf states. The only sane, reasonable, and not radical state along the Persian Gulf is Oman.

229 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:07:11am

Greenwald fans think weird.

230 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:07:20am
231 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:08:19am

re: #225 darthstar

They can’t pivot.

They can torso twist and they can turn fast enough. Most foes can’t survive their fire long enough to force a situation where a Warhawk would have to pivot, and those that can are mostly too slow to force same. As an Omnimech, the Warhawk can also carry battle armor infantry, who are more than capable of stopping any close assaults.

/Serious BT geekage

232 Lidane  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:09:52am

My first Page in a while:

Facebook, Microsoft Release Data Request Numbers

233 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:10:09am

More people die from falling accidents than murder therefore…

234 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:10:10am

re: #227 Political Atheist

Yeah, still hanging out.

How obnoxious is that kind of transfer? I’m used to paying the local FFL $20 but I had someone decide not to buy a Winchester 94 from me because she couldn’t find anyplace for less than $100. Is that typical because of the extra time and hassle? Are there only certain FFL’s that do that kind of thing? Just curious - it’s a beat up old beast so the primary price tag was pretty low to start with so that much of a fee was too big a chunk for a not rare “truck gun”.

235 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:11:30am

re: #231 Dark_Falcon

They can torso twist and they can turn fast enough. Most foes can’t survive their fire long enough to force a situation where a Warhawk would have to pivot, and those that can are mostly too slow to force same. As an Omnimech, the Warhawk can also carry battle armor infantry, who are more than capable of stopping any close assaults.

/Serious BT geekage

Image: 61_Psycho_CJFDelta_Warhawk1.jpg

I see no twist capability in this design, sorry. A Barbie with an acetyline torch is more dangerous. Your toy is inferior.

236 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:12:56am
237 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:13:40am

re: #235 darthstar

Never played any of the Mechwarrior PC games, have you?

Situation settled: You lose. :)

238 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:15:57am

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

Never played any of the Mechwarrior PC games, have you?

Situation settled: You lose. :)

I like girls too much for that.

239 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:17:14am
240 darthstar  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:17:27am

Okay…time to shower up and head north of the Golden Gate with the missus. Sausalito, Mill Valley, maybe a quick drive up to Napa for some mozzarella al minuto at Tra Vigne.

Play nice, everyone.

241 Gus  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:19:13am

re: #240 darthstar

Okay…time to shower up and head north of the Golden Gate with the missus. Sausalito, Mill Valley, maybe a quick drive up to Napa for some mozzarella al minuto at Tra Vigne.

Play nice, everyone.

Sauce Alito

242 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:20:57am

re: #241 Gus

Sauce Alito

I thought he was from the east coast?


///

243 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:23:03am

re: #241 Gus

Sauce Alito

Marinate County

244 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:26:42am

re: #232 Lidane

My first Page in a while:

Facebook, Microsoft Release Data Request Numbers

Promoted! Great post.

245 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:39:25am

re: #234 William Barnett-Lewis

How obnoxious is that kind of transfer? I’m used to paying the local FFL $20 but I had someone decide not to buy a Winchester 94 from me because she couldn’t find anyplace for less than $100. Is that typical because of the extra time and hassle? Are there only certain FFL’s that do that kind of thing? Just curious - it’s a beat up old beast so the primary price tag was pretty low to start with so that much of a fee was too big a chunk for a not rare “truck gun”.

Yeah, fees are quite high. The legal peril any gun dealer faces for even the smallest error or conflict between keeping local PD, the state and the Federal protocol is pretty scary. I know a Californian who inherited a few guns that were no longer legal to buy, but were just fine a generation ago when bought. Nothing full auto or military. This person did not want the guns. So selling them legally above board was a fair choice.

As Even though this person hired a retired cop who has the specialized knowledge of gun laws to get rid of her guns for here, she still got threatening legal letters from the state of California. Really intimidating stuff. The pressure was on to turn them in for smelting instead of sell them where they are perfectly legal and a registration process would apply.

This is the downside of strong gun control. They took it to where a law abiding person can mis step even with professional help and still face legal sanction of fines and a damaged record.

246 Minor_L  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:46:05am

I liked this parenthetical paragraph from Rick Pearlstein (the Nation) in response to Greenwald:

By the way, you can still hold that those “legal channels” are ghastly, invasive and immoral, as I suspect they may well be, and stimultaneously believe that Greenwald may have made a grave and self-defeating error both in terms of accuracy and in terms of advocacy.

Read more: A Response to Glenn Greenwald | The Nation thenation.com

I’m sure Greenwald’s response will still be: “OBOT!!!11!”

247 Minor_L  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:47:59am

re: #240 darthstar

Okay…time to shower up and head north of the Golden Gate with the missus. Sausalito, Mill Valley, maybe a quick drive up to Napa for some mozzarella al minuto at Tra Vigne.

Play nice, everyone.

That sounds AMAZING. Have fun!

248 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:00:28am

re: #245 Political Atheist

Thank you for the information, I appreciate it.


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