Glenn Greenwald’s Latest Self-Debunking Non-Bombshell

Libertarian hyperventilation continues
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Here we go again. Glenn Greenwald’s latest overheated, over-long, deliberately confusing piece claims to reveal: The Top Secret Rules That Allow NSA to Use US Data Without a Warrant.

Notice the extravagant use of scare quotes.

Top secret documents submitted to the court that oversees surveillance by US intelligence agencies show the judges have signed off on broad orders which allow the NSA to make use of information “inadvertently” collected from domestic US communications without a warrant.

The Guardian is publishing in full two documents submitted to the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (known as the Fisa court), signed by Attorney General Eric Holder and stamped 29 July 2009. They detail the procedures the NSA is required to follow to target “non-US persons” under its foreign intelligence powers and what the agency does to minimize data collected on US citizens and residents in the course of that surveillance.

The documents show that even under authorities governing the collection of foreign intelligence from foreign targets, US communications can still be collected, retained and used.

OK, keep digging through the turgid prose. Keep digging. Because eventually you get to this:

FAA warrants are issued by the Fisa court for up to 12 months at a time, and authorise the collection of bulk information - some of which can include communications of US citizens, or people inside the US. To intentionally target either of those groups requires an individual warrant.

Wait a minute — did Glenn Greenwald just debunk his own exaggerated claims? Why yes, he did.

To recap, what these rules show is a surveillance agency that is greatly encumbered by many layers of oversight and legal limitations. And even though the NSA can store information (Greenwald confuses “storing” with “using”) from US citizens collected inadvertently in the course of an investigation, that information is strictly limited, and anonymized, and if the NSA wants to investigate it further, they need an individual warrant to do so.

In other words, that headline borders on an outright lie.

The New York Times headline for this non-bombshell is much more accurate: Documents Detail Restrictions on N.S.A. Surveillance.

The documents, classified “Secret,” describe the procedures for eavesdropping under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, including an N.S.A. program called Prism [Ed. note: that’s wrong, by the way - PRISM is not a “program”] that mines Internet communications using services including Gmail and Facebook. They are likely to add fuel for both sides of the debate over the proper limits of the government’s surveillance programs.

They offer a glimpse of a rule-bound intelligence bureaucracy that is highly sensitive to the distinction between foreigners and “U.S. persons,” which technically include not only American citizens and legal residents but American companies and nonprofit organizations as well. The two sets of rules, each nine pages long, belie the image of a rogue intelligence agency recklessly violating Americans’ privacy.

Bob Cesca’s piece is also on the mark, as usual: Greenwald Debunks Himself: NSA Targeting of a U.S. Citizen Requires a Warrant.

UPDATE at 6/21/13 2:43:34 pm

Reading over Greenwald’s piece again, I was struck by this section:

NSA minimization procedures signed by Holder in 2009 set out that once a target is confirmed to be within the US, interception must stop immediately. However, these circumstances do not apply to large-scale data where the NSA claims it is unable to filter US communications from non-US ones.

The NSA is empowered to retain data for up to five years and the policy states “communications which may be retained include electronic communications acquired because of limitations on the NSA’s ability to filter communications”.

When Greenwald writes “large-scale data,” what he’s actually talking about are the fiber optic lines that run into and out of the US, carrying most of the world’s international Internet and phone activity. Obviously it’s impossible to filter this vast amount of data in real time, and some information from US citizens is inevitably going to be collected.

But Greenwald elides the details of this and uses the vague term “large-scale data,” instead of what it is — international communications.

Also note that the entire system Greenwald is describing was explicitly designed to prevent abuse. “Must stop immediately” is about as strong a directive as you’ll ever see. If they have reasonable suspicion, then a US citizens’ data can be stored — but even then there are strong privacy regulations. It has to be anonymized and requires an individual warrant to be accessed or investigated further.

What more does anyone think needs to be done? Is there still a potential for abuse? Obviously yes, as in any human activity. But it’s clear that the system was designed to try to avoid it.

Jump to bottom

216 comments
1 EPR-radar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:22:44pm

Greenwald continues to lose credibility every time he pulses the blender on this story. It really is a pathetic performance.

Meanwhile, it seem to me that all of the FISA court rulings that pertain to general policies (as opposed to warrants naming specific individuals) should routinely be made public.

It isn’t really much of a court at all if all of its decisions are secret.

2 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:23:29pm

Chris Hayes hasn’t mentioned Greenwald all week. That should tell you something.

3 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:24:31pm

re: #2 darthstar

Chris Hayes hasn’t mentioned Greenwald all week. That should tell you something.

He’s been silenced!

4 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:25:33pm

Gah. This ‘Store’ (or Collect) vs ‘Use’ think keeps coming up.

When the Universal Background Checks for guns was being debated, gun nuts said that merely the fact that the information about someone requesting a pre-sale check was being collected AT ALL, even if it was required to be destroyed after a certain period, was tantamount to REGISTRATION! Which, as we all know, is the last step before TOTAL CONFISCATION!!!!

5 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:25:43pm

re: #2 darthstar

Chris Hayes hasn’t mentioned Greenwald all week. That should tell you something.

14:57, 14:58, 14:59….

I wish.

6 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:26:39pm

Paula Deen apologizes.

7 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:27:29pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

He’s been silenced!

The worst part is I had to put up with Chris’ show all week to see what he’d say after last week’s love-fest…crickets.

8 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:29:00pm

If anything, this whole “scandal” has demonstrated just how hemmed the NSA is by limitations.

9 Ace-o-aces  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:29:07pm

Still, a FISA warrant casts a large net, and the oversight procedures are a bit murky. It’s the kind of thing with great potential for abuse.

10 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:29:44pm

re: #4 GeneJockey

Gah. This ‘Store’ (or Collect) vs ‘Use’ think keeps coming up.

When the Universal Background Checks for guns was being debated, gun nuts said that merely the fact that the information about someone requesting a pre-sale check was being collected AT ALL, even if it was required to be destroyed after a certain period, was tantamount to REGISTRATION! Which, as we all know, is the last step before TOTAL CONFISCATION!!!!

I think Greenwald is deliberately confusing the issue with the word “use.” Notice how many times it appears in his article, when what he’s really talking about is storing the information.

11 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:30:06pm

re: #9 Ace-o-aces

Still, a FISA warrant casts a large net, and the oversight procedures are a bit murky. It’s the kind of thing with great potential for abuse.

The key word being “potential.” 2 weeks into this whole joke of a “scandal” and we’ve yet to see any actual evidence of abuse.

12 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:30:36pm

Also notice that in all of these articles and many thousands of words, Greenwald has not documented a single case of actual wrongdoing. Not one.

13 Ace-o-aces  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:31:26pm

re: #8 Targetpractice

If anything, this whole “scandal” has demonstrated just how hemmed the NSA is by limitations.

Not necessarily a bad thing. Bush thought he could do all this without any oversight at all…because 9/11.

14 Minor_L  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:32:07pm

I like knowing how this all works, and I’m glad this is out. Responsible reporting by the NY Times is great. Greenwald is just a joke at this point. (I like how he puts “inadvertent” in scare quotes. He has absolutely no evidence that it was anything other than inadvertence that caused the collection. I guess he considers his own confirmation bias to be “evidence.”)

15 Stanghazi  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:33:03pm

re: #6 darthstar

Paula Deen apologizes.

16 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:34:28pm
17 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:35:05pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Also notice that in all of these articles and many thousands of words, Greenwald has not documented a single case of actual wrongdoing. Not one.

That would require research.

18 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:35:33pm

re: #13 Ace-o-aces

Not necessarily a bad thing. Bush thought he could do all this without any oversight at all…because 9/11.

And I could never get Wingnuts to understand that it wasn’t that Bush was listening to all our phone calls. It was that he asserted the authority to do so not subject to regulation or oversight by anyone else.

We may not LIKE what the NSA can do, we may even see the Congressional authorizations and briefings, and the FISA court rulings and warrants as mere fig leaves, but the Bush Administration asserted it didn’t even need that much.

19 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:36:02pm

The Guardian headline does not “border on an outright lie”, it flat out is an outright lie.

20 Targetpractice  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:36:34pm

Really, after 2 weeks, the only conclusion that can be reached for Greenwald not reporting actual evidence of abuse is that he has none. He’s playing up the “potential” for abuse as if it’s actually happening. That’s not journalism, that’s activism.

21 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:37:51pm

re: #20 Targetpractice

That’s not journalism, that’s activism.

Well, GG admitted as much right from the start.

22 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:38:05pm

re: #20 Targetpractice

Really, after 2 weeks, the only conclusion that can be reached for Greenwald not reporting actual evidence of abuse is that he has none. He’s playing up the “potential” for abuse as if it’s actually happening. That’s not journalism, that’s activism.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the lack of evidence of actual wrongdoing!!
//

23 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:39:30pm

re: #20 Targetpractice

Really, after 2 weeks, the only conclusion that can be reached for Greenwald not reporting actual evidence of abuse is that he has none. He’s playing up the “potential” for abuse as if it’s actually happening. That’s not journalism, that’s activism.

Or at best commentary/opinion.

24 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:40:22pm
25 EPR-radar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:42:30pm

re: #20 Targetpractice

Really, after 2 weeks, the only conclusion that can be reached for Greenwald not reporting actual evidence of abuse is that he has none. He’s playing up the “potential” for abuse as if it’s actually happening. That’s not journalism, that’s activism.

Perhaps the near-total absence of real journalists causes others to fill the void from various directions (e.g., activists, opinion writers, comedians, etc.)?

26 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:42:51pm

nah…not worth repeating.
Sorry.

27 Ace-o-aces  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:43:26pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

in all of these articles and many thousands of words

Has he ever written anything that didn’t stretch to thousands of words? (And with updates).

28 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:45:32pm

Now I’m a “fascist apologist.”

SMH

29 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:46:51pm
30 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:46:58pm

re: #28 Charles Johnson

Now I’m a “fascist apologist.”

SMH

That’s crazy. Fascists NEVER apologize!
//

31 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:47:24pm

re: #28 Charles Johnson

Now I’m a “fascist apologist.”

SMH

Stasi enabler! Also, something linked from LGF circa 2004.

Outrage!

//

32 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:51:25pm

re: #31 Gus

I love how they keep recycling that one photo of me standing with Pamela Geller 7 years ago. That was at the PJ Media launch party in New York, and there were thousands of people there, and it was the only time Geller and I have ever been in the same room.

And after five minutes with her, I spent the rest of the weekend doing everything I could to avoid her.

33 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:51:46pm

Ah just don’t know why in the lawd’s name all those people would be sayin’ those mean things about me! I’m shocked, shocked, I tell y’all…

34 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:52:39pm

re: #32 Charles Johnson

I love how they keep recycling that one photo of me standing with Pamela Geller 7 years ago. That was at the PJ Media launch party in New York, and there were thousands of people there, and it was the only time Geller and I have ever been in the same room.

And after five minutes with her, I spent the rest of the weekend doing everything I could to avoid her.

enough to taint you for life…

35 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:52:51pm

I dunno Charles, how certain are you that some element of what you called “confirmation bias” is not at work with your coverage of this - is it possible that your innate dislike of Greenwald is coloring your evaluation of what the Guardian has revealed and continues to reveal?

I’ve already stated unequivocally here that I share most of your evaluations of Greenwald’s character, and he sure as hell is no journalist - he’s an activist and polemicist - so there should be no need to go over all that again.
I know you have said that this is an important subject, and that a national conversation about it all will be a Good Thing, an assertion with which I agree full throttle.

But the point being made in the piece you reference here is that the data on US citizens can be collected and utilized without a warrant by the simple device of claiming that the collection was not intentional in the first place.

Add that to the overall picture - that of a secret court applying rules which have not been (and cannot be) challenged for legality by any appeal to higher courts, and with a track record of not denying one single solitary request for authorization since day one, I think it’s fair to say that we’re slowly building a picture that would be met with derision and disbelief if it were in any other setting.

Fine with me if you want to continue to bang away at Greenwald personally - I’m kinda enjoying it and might even be tempted to join in - but I’m thinking the smart move will be to wait until the Guardian is done revealing everything that they have (there’s another piece up today about the GCHQ/NSA relationship, authored by a bunch of long-time Guardian word-whirlers).

Britain’s spy agency GCHQ has secretly gained access to the network of cables which carry the world’s phone calls and internet traffic and has started to process vast streams of sensitive personal information which it is sharing with its American partner, the National Security Agency (NSA)…… This includes recordings of phone calls, the content of email messages, entries on Facebook and the history of any internet user’s access to websites - all of which is deemed legal, even though the warrant system was supposed to limit interception to a specified range of targets.

36 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:53:59pm

re: #33 darthstar

Really, does she ever look at herself in a mirror?
Paula…do NOT wear capris if you are going to be photographed…

37 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:54:01pm

I know, I keep flipping back and forth between Paula Deen and Glenn Greenwald. If he wasn’t gay, I’d suggest they hook up.

Speaking of Glenn…given the bitchy quality of his tweets, I can think of one guy in South America who is probably thinking, “Just move back to the US already!”

38 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:54:49pm

re: #35 gunnison

But the point being made in the piece you reference here is that the data on US citizens can be collected and utilized without a warrant by the simple device of claiming that the collection was not intentional in the first place.

But that is not true. Stored, yes, if it’s inadvertently collected during an investigation and there’s reasonable suspicion that it has something to do with the investigation. To be “utilized,” the documents are extremely clear that an individual warrant has to be obtained.

39 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:56:25pm

Meanwhile, in Obamacareland…

40 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:57:14pm

re: #35 gunnison

Add that to the overall picture - that of a secret court applying rules which have not been (and cannot be) challenged for legality by any appeal to higher courts, and with a track record of not denying one single solitary request for authorization since day one, I think it’s fair to say that we’re slowly building a picture that would be met with derision and disbelief if it were in any other setting.

That bolded section is also not true. I’m not sure how many denials have been issued, but it’s not zero.

41 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:57:30pm

Boehner should never have picked a fight with Nancy…she’s got him outsmarted, outgunned, and he’s got himself outcast.

42 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 12:58:49pm

And once again, there seems to be some serious confusion here about my points. I am NOT saying everything’s just fine with FISA courts and NSA metadata collection, and I’m not defending the system. I’m trying to rebut the misinformation that is being deliberately spread by Greenwald et al.

43 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:01:21pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

That distinction will be missed by many, especially your stalkers and detractors.

44 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:02:05pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

That bolded section is also not true. I’m not sure how many denials have been issued, but it’s not zero.

All I can respond to that is to quote from the source of my assertion - a piece by Bill Quigley here;

Over the last three years, the government has made 4,976 requests to the secret FISA court for permission to conduct electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes. But the really big FISA number is zero. Zero is the number of government requests to conduct electronic surveillance the FISA court has turned down in the last three years.

In 2012, the government asked for permission from the judges of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) 1,789 times to conduct electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes. There were zero denials. One time the government withdrew its request.

In 2011, the government asked FISA judges 1,676 times to conduct electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence services. There were zero denials. The government withdrew two requests.

In 2010, the government asked FISA judges 1,511 times to conduct electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes. There were zero denials. The government withdrew five requests.

Not a bad record, huh? Nearly five thousand victories for those who want surveillance powers and no defeats is a record that should concern everyone who seeks to protect civil liberties.

45 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:05:07pm

re: #44 gunnison

But you are right, Charles, in that I should not have used the phrase “since day one”.
But zero denials in three years from a secret court is no laughing matter, I think you’d agree?

46 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:05:23pm

re: #44 gunnison

Go reread Charles’ post, particularly the bolded part. His response to your post is accurate, and your response is not responsive. The FISA court existed long before the last 3 years - since 1978, if memory serves.

47 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:05:37pm

re: #41 darthstar

It’s not that he picked a fight with Nancy per se, it’s that he’s got to fight the socon, TP anarchist wing of his own party - which refused to budget and compromise on, well, anything.

The only way the House will get anything passed that has a chance of being enacted into law is if Boehner drops the Hastert rule. The House can pass anything it damned well pleases, but the GOP will get absolutely nothing accomplished (enacted into law) that way except adding to the tally of votes to repeal Obamacare that never stood a chance of being passed by the Senate, let alone vetoed by the President, and the misogynistic abortion restrictions and deprivations to womens’ health bills they keep picking up.

Boehner’s got no choice but to deal with Pelosi and Democrats to get key items through the House because he can’t control his own party. He’s about as weak a Speaker we’ve seen in a long time - courtesy of his own Party.

48 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:05:42pm

re: #44 gunnison

You said “from day one.” That article is talking about the last three years.

And I’ve pointed out before that there’s a reason why there are so few denials - because the standard of evidence and proof is so high that the feds have to seriously prepare cases before submitting them to FISA. If we were seeing lots of denials, that would be evidence of a much more serious problem - it would mean the government was consistently trying to push the limits of surveillance.

Yes, let’s have more transparency about these courts and the NSA. Let’s also have less fear-mongering.

49 chadu  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:06:45pm

re: #44 gunnison

“wirebrushing”
tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com

The FISC judges’ function has come under scrutiny in the wake of the leak of a top secret order — the first one ever to be seen publicly, according to NPR — issued by the court in April, requiring a Verizon subsidiary, Verizon Business Network Services, to turn over to the NSA the metadata about calls made by all its subscribers over a three-month period. Critics have called the court a rubber stamp for the government. According to an NPR report this week, the government submitted 1,856 applications to the court last year. The court approved every one.

But people familiar with the FISC told NPR that the story is not as simple as the top line numbers make it seem.

“I can tell you that that court has taken a wire brush to certain applications that have come before it,” Joel Brenner, a former inspector general of the National Security Agency, told NPR.”The idea that somehow they put their stamp on everything the government puts before them couldn’t be farther from the truth.”

If the FISA court find a problem with a warrant application, they kick it back for modification.

50 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:07:30pm

re: #46 GeneJockey

Gene, yes, I acknowledged that using the phrase “from day one” was misleading.
My bad.

51 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:08:02pm

re: #47 lawhawk

I kind of hope the teabaggers get their wish and hold a vote for a new speaker…then, when that happens, 30-40 moderate Republicans side with the Democrats and re-seat Nancy as Speaker. It could happen…won’t, but could.

52 EPR-radar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:08:37pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

And once again, there seems to be some serious confusion here about my points. I am NOT saying everything’s just fine with FISA courts and NSA metadata collection, and I’m not defending the system. I’m trying to rebut the misinformation that is being deliberately spread by Greenwald et al.

The first step in deciding what changes, if any, should be made to the current system is to understand what it presently is. Poor journalism by Greenwald is not helpful here.

However, the leaks by Snowden appear to have been a necessary catalyst for a long overdue security vs. freedom conversation. It is irritating that routine secrecy for everything seems to prevent any other way to get started that might have less collateral damage to national security than individual leakers with more or less rational axes to grind.

53 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:08:38pm

re: #46 GeneJockey

The people who work with the FISA court and the warrant process know how to work the process so that they can get the warrants to pass muster. Moreover, the court process allows amending or modifying the warrants so that they do.

That said, the numbers do seem to lean towards a rubber stamp, which is the Socky McSockpuppet line, but that ignores that there are so few of these requests in any given year as compared to the overall population that we’re talking about a very narrow use of the rules.

54 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:09:02pm

re: #51 darthstar

I kind of hope the teabaggers get their wish and hold a vote for a new speaker…then, when that happens, 30-40 moderate Republicans side with the Democrats and re-seat Nancy as Speaker. It could happen…won’t, but could.

Why would 30-40 Republicans want to commit political suicide?

55 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:09:25pm
56 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:09:56pm

Jury awards former student $13 million in suit against for profit college

The plaintiff had originally enrolled at Vatterott College, which has 19 campuses in 9 states, with the understanding that she was in the school’s medical assistant program. She said the school told her it was a fast-track to an eventual nursing degree and that the medical assistant certification alone would land her a job earning $15-17/hour.

And so she took out around $27,000 in loans and put in 60 weeks worth of study, only to find out that she was actually in a medical office assistant’s program, and that the medical assistant certification would require another 30 weeks and around $10,000.

Then she found out, during her six-month search for an medical office assistant position, that the certification isn’t even a prerequisite for the job. Unable to find a gig tied to the coursework for which she’d paid dearly, she ended up accepting a part-time job in a cafeteria lunchroom before landing a full-time job at a corporate bakery.

She found a lawyer and sued Vatterott, alleging that it had violated the Missouri Merchandising Practices Act. The case was seeking reimbursement for the $27,000 in student loans she’d taken out plus damages.

I really hope these colleges get the screws put to them en masse at some point. They really leave a trail of destruction in their wake with the way they mislead students and gobble up Government money.

57 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:10:41pm

DUMBEST TWEET OF THE DAY

58 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:10:43pm

re: #54 Sol Berdinowitz

Why would 30-40 Republicans want to commit political suicide?

Self respect. Think Norquist could rally enough primary challenges to unseat them all? Calling out the extremists in their party would actually secure their chances at reelection.

59 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:11:13pm

re: #35 gunnison

…is it possible that your innate dislike of Greenwald is coloring your evaluation of what the Guardian has revealed and continues to reveal?

I don’t have “an innate dislike of Greenwald.” I’m not even sure what that means. I do have a history with him, it’s true, and he has outright lied about me on several occasions, which does tend to color my opinion of him — but justifiably so.

If I seem disdainful of him, it’s because it’s clear to me that he’s deliberately distorting this information for purposes of self-aggrandization. He’s earned it.

60 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:11:15pm

re: #57 Vicious Babushka

DUMBEST TWEET OF THE DAY

Is there any chance that Prudence account is a parody??

61 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:11:52pm

re: #60 Eclectic Cyborg

Is there any chance that Prudence account is a parody??

No. She is a certified moran.

62 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:11:59pm

re: #50 gunnison

Gene, yes, I acknowledged that using the phrase “from day one” was misleading.
My bad.

Yes, I saw your post when my post came up.

And I get your point, but I think it’s simplistic to compare rejection rates of the FISC with warrant rejection rates in general. They do kick back for modification when a warrant isn’t up to snuff, and the FBI and NSA likely vet their requests to avoid wasting their effort.

63 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:13:10pm

re: #48 Charles Johnson

re: #49 chadu

Yes—per last week’s interviewer on NPR, there really are very few outright rejections, but that is because the court helps frame the requests to itself in a recursive process. This isn’t a criminal/civil adversarial court—it is just intended to be third branch oversight.

64 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:13:45pm

re: #55 darthstar

65 gwangung  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:13:54pm

re: #53 lawhawk

The people who work with the FISA court and the warrant process know how to work the process so that they can get the warrants to pass muster. Moreover, the court process allows amending or modifying the warrants so that they do.

Hm. I don;t think there’s any wrong with that. Experience and changing your behavior to fit the rules doesn’t seem particularly sinister.

66 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:14:13pm

re: #57 Vicious Babushka

I’m sure that Obama is terrified to learn that I pay all of my bills on time, I call my mom at least once a week, and my life is rather boring.
Oh wait…there is the FACT that I spend a lot of time at LGF….

67 EPR-radar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:14:32pm

re: #53 lawhawk

The people who work with the FISA court and the warrant process know how to work the process so that they can get the warrants to pass muster. Moreover, the court process allows amending or modifying the warrants so that they do.

That said, the numbers do seem to lean towards a rubber stamp, which is the Socky McSockpuppet line, but that ignores that there are so few of these requests in any given year as compared to the overall population that we’re talking about a very narrow use of the rules.

One possibility is to make the proceedings before FISA more adversarial, which is usually assumed to be necessary in the US legal system. The feds could hire some lawyers interested in arguing for civil liberties to argue against the government’s position, clear them, and then at least the FISA judges will see competing arguments before deciding.

68 b.d.  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:14:38pm

Snowden has leaked to the world that our government spook network is really rather boring and tedious.

69 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:14:41pm

re: #62 GeneJockey

Yes, I saw your post when my post came up.

And I get your point, but I think it’s simplistic to compare rejection rates of the FISC with warrant rejection rates in general. They do kick back for modification when a warrant isn’t up to snuff, and the FBI and NSA likely vet their requests to avoid wasting their effort.

Yeah, warrants aren’t really accepted or rejected on the grounds of how someone feels, it’s a legal process. IF you hire good lawyers to review your stuff, you can confidently expect it to go through or for them to tell you “This one won’t go through, don’t submit it.”

70 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:15:01pm

From Kurt Eichenwald’s recent article: PRISM Isn’t Data Mining and Other Falsehoods in the N.S.A. “Scandal” | Vanity Fair

Much has been made of the fact that these approvals appear to be given frequently, with some saying the F.I.S.A. courts are just rubber stamps. I disagree; given the requirements for prior review and assessment at the top of the executive branch, a high approval rate for subpoenas would be expected. I’d be more concerned if they were frequently rejected, because that would signal the executive branch was probably attempting to abuse the system.

71 engineer cat  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:16:17pm

did Glenn Greenwald just debunk his own

remember that the best source of debunking for wingnut claims often turns out to be the link they just served up to you claiming that it provides proof of their assertions

72 chadu  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:16:26pm

re: #70 Charles Johnson

I’d be more concerned if they were frequently rejected, because that would signal the executive branch was probably attempting to abuse the system.

QFT.

73 engineer cat  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:20:27pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

And once again, there seems to be some serious confusion here about my points. I am NOT saying everything’s just fine with FISA courts and NSA metadata collection, and I’m not defending the system. I’m trying to rebut the misinformation that is being deliberately spread by Greenwald et al.

the exaggerated claims, as i’m sure many others have pointed out, tend to overshadow the fact that 1) the legal requirements have become incredibly relaxed, and 2) the vastly increased availability of personal information invites abuse by people not following the law

in the end, you just have to always remember to stay aware of what information about yourself you are exposing

74 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:21:00pm

re: #58 darthstar

Self respect. Think Norquist could rally enough primary challenges to unseat them all? Calling out the extremists in their party would actually secure their chances at reelection.

That is long-term thinking. Do you believe there are enough politicians in the world who can think and act that way?

75 Kid A  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:21:54pm

Finally, a Republican tells us what their real plans are when it comes to abortion:


76 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:22:23pm

re: #68 b.d.

Snowden has leaked to the world that our government spook network is really rather extremely boring and tedious.

77 piratedan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:23:00pm

so to sum up….

1) GG and WaPo rush to the presses with a story that will change how you look at and perceive your Government! Only one teensy lil’ issue, i.e. they got it wrong, using a combination of headline histrionics and a lack of understanding regarding how the system actually works and they still couldn’t be bothered to vet that out nor to go back and actually read what’s in the Patriot Act and understand it’s history.

2) MSM feeding frenzy, because for some reason people weren’t full after the three previous high calorie low substance outrages perpetuated by the GOP with our MSM doing their usual job of aiding and abetting.

3) The Source is revealed and he’s someone we can all believe in as he’s unimpeachable, mostly, well if he was here we could say more, ‘natch.

4) People start picking at the statements and the source and tumble to the coincidence that the source and the mouthpiece wear the same aftershave.

5) Source is contradicted by the Government, the Techies and the Data Holders, but hey, who are you gonna believe, a dude who breaks his own vow to the Government in a fit of ideological outrage (or for a different kind of motivation, but it would be unwise not to speculate) and flees the country or the folks that say that this is a gross misrepresentation of what we do and we REALLY know what you downloaded little mister!

6) GG and WaPo start with the we may have said THAT, but what we really mean is THIS and we stand by our source, just you wait til those documents come home and we tell your father.

7) The Source says, I’m gonna make nice with the PRC and Russia and you’re not the boss of me, so there.

8) GG says that while there is government spying and begrudgingly admits that it’s legal, it’s totally possible to abuse the system and if there’s anything I know, it’s that THIS Administration will abuse the system. Never mind their deeds, like adding oversight and releasing formerly sensitive documents, looks at what they’re saying. Just listen to those measured responses… HOW DARE THEY!!!! LOOK AT ME!!! LOOK AT ME!!!!!

glad we could have this talk about National Security and data gathering protocols.

78 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:24:47pm

re: #48 Charles Johnson

And I’ve pointed out before that there’s a reason why there are so few denials - because the standard of evidence and proof is so high that the feds have to seriously prepare cases before submitting them to FISA. If we were seeing lots of denials, that would be evidence of a much more serious problem - it would mean the government was consistently trying to push the limits of surveillance.

The reason you propose there is certainly possible, but since it’s unverifiable independently of the the people who are suggesting it, that doesn’t move us forward very much.

The same outwardsymptoms (almost no denials) would be exhibited if the court were genuinely a ‘rubber stamp’ outfit, and since neither the court proceedings, nor the laws they are purportedly adhering to, can be examined or challenged, we’re pretty much in the dark.

And certainly there is enough historic evidence of past attempts by the intel community to deliberately mislead not only the public but their congressional oversight, I’ll argue that it’s not irrational to be incredulous. Some of us old farts remember COINTELPRO, and have the scars to prove it.

I do agree that what’s needed is accuracy and cool heads, and I do agree that Greenwald is not a source of either. But he is right that secret court proceedings are inherently problematic regardless of where they occur. The US is not magically protected from the abuses of power if such dynamics are persisted with. There’s a reason the constitution doesn’t embrace that kind of malarkey.

79 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:27:06pm

re: #73 engineer cat

the exaggerated claims, as i’m sure many others have pointed out, tend to overshadow the fact that 1) the legal requirements have become incredibly relaxed, and 2) the vastly increased availability of personal information invites abuse by people not following the law

in the end, you just have to always remember to stay aware of what information about yourself you are exposing

With all this technology intended to connect people, privacy issues are vastly more complex than in the era of rotary dial phones. Most people have no idea how much personal information they’re putting out there every time they post a picture to Instagram or check in with Foursquare or make a cell phone call.

I’d like to see cell phone metadata treated the same way as actual phone calls - considered protected by the Fourth Amendment. The Supreme Court was wrong to rule it as “public record,” IMO.

80 Lidane  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:27:49pm
81 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:28:34pm

re: #73 engineer cat

tend to overshadow the fact that 1) the legal requirements have become incredibly relaxed,

The FISA oversight process under the Obama Administration is actually more restricted than the process in effect under the Bush Administration. There’s more oversight now, though the question can be phrased as to whether still more oversight or restriction is needed, even as the fact remains that an individual warrant is needed for the NSA to target US citizens, or people inside the US.

As to your point two:

and 2) the vastly increased availability of personal information invites abuse by people not following the law

That applies to both businesses and the government. After all, businesses have shown a willingness to do with private data whatever they damned well please - Facebook and others are constantly looking to monetize personal information and interactions by any means necessary. And we (as a whole) seem to ignore what kind of privacy we give up when sharing on Facebook and other social networking sites.

82 Lidane  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:29:20pm

re: #64 NJDhockeyfan

83 b.d.  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:30:34pm
Exclusive: British spy agency collects and stores vast quantities of global email messages, Facebook posts, internet histories and calls, and shares them with NSA, latest documents from Edward Snowden reveal

Link

Newest Breaking Snowzilla story. Guess he ran out of US stuff.

84 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:30:49pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

I’d like to see cell phone metadata treated the same way as actual phone calls - considered protected by the Fourth Amendment. The Supreme Court was wrong to rule it as “public record,” IMO.

If the cellphone records for me and hubs are any indication, they’ll have to wade through a shitload of spam calls before they ever get to the real life boring stuff.

85 Ming  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:31:07pm

I was stunned by this post about someone who was using marijuana in the privacy of her own home, and what happened when the police got interested.

This made me take a second look at the recent fuss about the NSA. Yes, of course, I admire the professionals at NSA, I thank them for keeping my family safe, I realize that the world of espionage isn’t pretty, and I’m appalled by the sensationalizing that we’ve seen from some people, especially Glenn Greenwald.

Still, after reading that post (above) about the War on Marijuana, I’m glad that we’re having this discussion as a country. President Obama has said he welcomes the discussion, and he’s already clarified a great deal. To repeat, I really have no particular problem with the NSA right now, and I remain grateful to them. AND what happened to that poor woman in Alexandria, Virginia, should encourage all of us to keep a healthy skepticism about power in the hands of a massive central authority.

86 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:32:00pm

re: #81 lawhawk

The FISA oversight process under the Obama Administration is actually more restricted than the process in effect under the Bush Administration. There’s more oversight now, though the question can be phrased as to whether still more oversight or restriction is needed, even as the fact remains that an individual warrant is needed for the NSA to target US citizens, or people inside the US.

As to your point two:

That applies to both businesses and the government. After all, businesses have shown a willingness to do with private data whatever they damned well please - Facebook and others are constantly looking to monetize personal information and interactions by any means necessary. And we (as a whole) seem to ignore what kind of privacy we give up when sharing on Facebook and other social networking sites.

Not too worried about an administration that is concerned with observing the rules they inherit. I’m worried about the next LTC North/RADM Pointdexter cell.

87 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:32:53pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

If I seem disdainful of him, it’s because it’s clear to me that he’s deliberately distorting this information for purposes of self-aggrandization. He’s earned it.

You’ll get no fight out of me on any of that.

Just as your purpose in critiquing recent events in the light of Snowden and Greenwald is not to automatically defend the status-quo, my purpose in critiquing the facile assurances of the intel community is not to defend Greenwald’s methods and style.

88 b.d.  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:33:36pm

re: #83 b.d.

Snowden told the Guardian. “They [GCHQ] are worse than the US.”

Guess the kitten wants to play with a different dog.

89 piratedan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:34:07pm

re: #84 Backwoods_Sleuth

good, they can listen to all of those calls from the Fraternal Order of the Police/Firefighters/Emergency Workers for donations, although I may still want those stickers for the car.

90 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:35:39pm

re: #87 gunnison

If you want to appear objective, then don’t slip stuff like ‘facile’ in there. The standard for these warrants is low. That’s perfectly fine to point out. Accusing the court of being a ‘rubber stamp’ is punchy rhetoric but not really that meaningful. If you want to talk about the low standards for the warrants, that’s a good conversation, but the way you’re going about it seems to allege a conspiracy among judges.

91 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:35:52pm

re: #66 Backwoods_Sleuth

and my life is rather boring.
Oh wait…there is the FACT that I spend a lot of time at LGF

Houston, we have found a the problem!!!
//

92 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:36:15pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

With all this technology intended to connect people, privacy issues are vastly more complex than in the era of rotary dial phones.

Party lines sucked, though.

93 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:36:17pm

re: #83 b.d.

Link

Newest Breaking Snowzilla story. Guess he ran out of US stuff.

This EXCLUSIVE BOMBSHELL story is actually old, stale news. 12 years old.

94 b.d.  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:37:34pm

re: #88 b.d.

UK officials could also claim GCHQ “produces larger amounts of metadata than NSA”.

Ok, so we aren’t freaked out over the NSA anymore, it’s teh Brits?

95 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:37:45pm

re: #92 wrenchwench

Party lines sucked, though.

Image: ernestine.jpg

96 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:38:23pm

re: #87 gunnison

You’ll get no fight out of me on any of that.

Just as your purpose in critiquing recent events in the light of Snowden and Greenwald is not to automatically defend the status-quo, my purpose in critiquing the facile assurances of the intel community is not to defend Greenwald’s methods and style.

Yeah. Here’s the problem, though - if they were doing what they’re not supposed to be, they’d lie and say they weren’t. If they weren’t doing it, they’d tell the truth and say they weren’t. The statements they’d release would look much the same.

97 piratedan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:38:54pm

re: #94 b.d.

nah, when it’s derogatory it has to be Limey’s, one of the internet unspoken rules or something

98 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:39:44pm

re: #85 Ming

That story does not relate to the NSA, as far as I can tell.

What it may be more in tune with, though, is the uproar over the recent USSC ruling about remaining silent. As I wrote yesterday, I’m more concerned about that ruling than I am about the NSA (which frankly I’m not concerned about.)

The idea that someone can say or not say something and not be informed of their Miranda rights and still have their words/non-words be used against them goes more against the heart of “liberty” than international military cyber-snooping.

99 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:41:11pm

re: #95 sattv4u2

Image: ernestine.jpg

AT&T sucked, too. (Still do, but on a smaller scale.) It always amazes me when I think back to the days when nobody in the USA owned a telephone. They were all leased from AT&T.

Lily Tomlin is still awesome.

100 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:41:18pm

re: #93 Charles Johnson

That the NSA is tapping undersea fiber cables isn’t new news. Or even that the Brits are doing it. Heck, even the fact that the Brits are sharing intel with the US isn’t new news.

But it’s that latter piece of information that contains a problem.

The Brits are not constrained by the US Constitution on what they can do in terms of surveillance and wiretapping of US citizens within the US.

If the NSA and Brits are sharing information, it’s possible that the NSA could do an end-run around the constitutional restrictions and even FISA to peer at data that would otherwise be restricted without a proper warrant procedure. This is a murky area and one that could be ripe for abuse and therefore one that ought to get more scrutiny by Congress to make sure that the constitutionally afforded protections are maintained and how to address that kind of data sharing.

101 Minor_L  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:42:16pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

More of your fascist thinking!

//

102 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:43:06pm
103 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:43:56pm

re: #100 lawhawk

That the NSA is tapping undersea fiber cables isn’t new news. Or even that the Brits are doing it. Heck, even the fact that the Brits are sharing intel with the US isn’t new news.

But it’s that latter piece of information that contains a problem.

The Brits are not constrained by the US Constitution on what they can do in terms of surveillance and wiretapping of US citizens within the US.

If the NSA and Brits are sharing information, it’s possible that the NSA could do an end-run around the constitutional restrictions and even FISA to peer at data that would otherwise be restricted without a proper warrant procedure. This is a murky area and one that could be ripe for abuse and therefore one that ought to get more scrutiny by Congress to make sure that the constitutionally afforded protections are maintained and how to address that kind of data sharing.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we as a society could have a coherent, fact-based conversation about all this and figure out just what we want to do to preserve privacy while ensuring security?

Ah, well. A man can dream.

104 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:44:27pm

re: #85 Ming

I was stunned by this post about someone who was using marijuana in the privacy of her own home, and what happened when the police got interested.

This made me take a second look at the recent fuss about the NSA. Yes, of course, I admire the professionals at NSA, I thank them for keeping my family safe, I realize that the world of espionage isn’t pretty, and I’m appalled by the sensationalizing that we’ve seen from some people, especially Glenn Greenwald.

Still, after reading that post (above) about the War on Marijuana, I’m glad that we’re having this discussion as a country. President Obama has said he welcomes the discussion, and he’s already clarified a great deal. To repeat, I really have no particular problem with the NSA right now, and I remain grateful to them. AND what happened to that poor woman in Alexandria, Virginia, should encourage all of us to keep a healthy skepticism about power in the hands of a massive central authority.

You take that story on face value?

105 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:44:33pm

re: #99 wrenchwench

They were all leased from AT&T.
yup. I literally ripped the phone off my parents wall after years of them refusing to buy their own (even though I would show them on their bill how much they were/had paid all those years for their leased one)

106 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:44:33pm

re: #102 Gus

Color me unsurprised.

107 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:44:41pm

re: #100 lawhawk

That the NSA is tapping undersea fiber cables isn’t new news. Or even that the Brits are doing it. Heck, even the fact that the Brits are sharing intel with the US isn’t new news.

But it’s that latter piece of information that contains a problem.

The Brits are not constrained by the US Constitution on what they can do in terms of surveillance and wiretapping of US citizens within the US.

If the NSA and Brits are sharing information, it’s possible that the NSA could do an end-run around the constitutional restrictions and even FISA to peer at data that would otherwise be restricted without a proper warrant procedure. This is a murky area and one that could be ripe for abuse and therefore one that ought to get more scrutiny by Congress to make sure that the constitutionally afforded protections are maintained and how to address that kind of data sharing.

The entire “Echelon” semi-conspiracy theory is based on that sharing.
(Note: The FAS is not nutcases, we used them at Army HQ to help understand what we were doing.)

fas.org

108 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:44:56pm

re: #102 Gus

Time for her to work on her crow recipes.

109 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:45:49pm

re: #108 wrenchwench

Time for her to work on her crow recipes.

But not the Jim Crow ones.

110 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:47:10pm

WHAT THE TEA PARTY WANTS (Fascism wrapped in the Flag and Waving a Cross)

111 piratedan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:49:42pm

re: #110 Vicious Babushka

WHAT THE TEA PARTY WANTS (Fascism wrapped in the Flag and Waving a Cross)

so we have to break the Constitutional separation of church and state in order to form a more perfect theocracy….

112 jaunte  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:51:04pm
113 gunnison  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:51:10pm

re: #90 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

If you want to appear objective, then don’t slip stuff like ‘facile’ in there. The standard for these warrants is low. That’s perfectly fine to point out. Accusing the court of being a ‘rubber stamp’ is punchy rhetoric but not really that meaningful. If you want to talk about the low standards for the warrants, that’s a good conversation, but the way you’re going about it seems to allege a conspiracy among judges.

I want to appear objective, but I can’t because I don’t have enough independently verifiable facts. None of us do, which is kinda my point.

When I slip into language like “facile” and “rubber stamp” I agree I’m showing my own personal biases.
In my defense I can only say that I’ve come by them honorably, having witnessed lying on the part of officialdom (and not just in the US either) my whole life, from documented examples of officials lying to congressional committees all the way down to my many personal experiences of law-enforcement lying in court under oath.
Power does that, as far back as the eye can see in the entire history of human affairs. Which is one of the reasons the constitution, in general, disallows secret legal proceedings, and why I’ll argue that they should always be regarded with suspicion. Wherever they occur.

114 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:52:17pm

re: #110 Vicious Babushka

UNLIMITED AVAILABILITY OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!

REMOVE SHIFT KEYS FROM ALL KEYBOARDS, AND LOWER CASE FROM ALL FONTS!!!

115 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:55:25pm

re: #89 piratedan

good, they can listen to all of those calls from the Fraternal Order of the Police/Firefighters/Emergency Workers for donations, although I may still want those stickers for the car.

stickers are cool…

116 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:56:06pm
117 engineer cat  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:56:12pm

The Hill PitBull (@cas3kids) June 21, 2013

why are they mad as hell and rising up today more than any other day in the past six years?

118 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:56:32pm
119 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:56:41pm

re: #110 Vicious Babushka

Oh, and another thing - I’m one of ‘We, The People’, and I don’t want any of that shit. So, when you say, “WE THE PEOPLE ARE COMING!”, what you actually mean is “We, a small subset of The People, are fantacizing about the regime we’d like to impose on the REST OF The People”.

120 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:56:49pm

re: #89 piratedan

good, they can listen to all of those calls from the Fraternal Order of the Police/Firefighters/Emergency Workers for donations, although I may still want those stickers for the car.

Cheaper than bondo for holding it together, huh??

121 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:57:58pm

re: #119 GeneJockey

Oh, and another thing - I’m one of ‘We, The People’, and I don’t want any of that shit. So, when you say, “WE THE PEOPLE ARE COMING!”, what you actually mean is “We, a small subset of The People, are fantacizing about the regime we’d like to impose on the REST OF The People”.

WE IS COMIN WITH ARE GUNZ!!11 WEARIN ARE TRICORN HATZ AN ARE AIR CAV HATZ!!!111

122 piratedan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:58:43pm

re: #120 sattv4u2

Cheaper than bondo for holding it together, huh??

they’re like a temporary badge of shame that I’m a light touch

123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:58:49pm

re: #113 gunnison

I want to appear objective, but I can’t because I don’t have enough independently verifiable facts. None of us do, which is kinda my point.

This doesn’t really make any sense. In the absence of independently verifiable facts, you should refrain from reaching conclusions. You’re not doing that.

When I slip into language like “facile” and “rubber stamp” I agree I’m showing my own personal biases.

Good, I’m glad you acknowledge that.

In my defense I can only say that I’ve come by them honorably, having witnessed lying on the part of officialdom (and not just in the US either) my whole life, from documented examples of officials lying to congressional committees all the way down to my many personal experiences of law-enforcement lying in court under oath.

I’m sorry, but yes, I know that people lie. Nobody is arguing people don’t lie. You can consider the contention ‘people lie’ to be proved.

Power does that, as far back as the eye can see in the entire history of human affairs. Which is one of the reasons the constitution, in general, disallows secret legal proceedings, and why I’ll argue that they should always be regarded with suspicion. Wherever they occur.

The constitution does not disallow secret legal proceedings. Many legal proceedings are secret, some for the benefit of the law— such as warrant applications— and some which are secret for the sake of the defendant— meetings about suppression of evidence often gags public revelation about the evidence.

What you are probably objecting to is the secret legal reasoning— that the court is reviewing legal basis for the warrant without showing that to the defense attorney. That is a perfectly fair criticism and one I agree on, but it’s really important to note that, to believe that process is corrupted does mean believing that the US court system is corrupted, because the reviews involve multiple judges and, while the deliberations may be secret for now, they can be unclassified. They are on the record.

I agree that secret courts have a corruptive effect, but I don’t think that as soon as a judge enters a secret court he throws away all his previous judicial ethics. And there are legitimate reasons— I do not agree with the argument, but it is a legitimate one— for keeping the basis of the warrant secret, when that basis is “We have a wiretap on Person X’s phone, so we got a warrant for person Y based on stuff we heard.” You basically are giving away that tap.

124 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 1:59:51pm

re: #121 Vicious Babushka

WE IS COMIN WITH ARE GUNZ!!11

We is waiting with OUR guns. Also with our tanks, planes, helicopters, drones, bombs, missiles, etc.
//

125 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:00:19pm
126 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:00:57pm

re: #121 Vicious Babushka

CHUCKLES JOHNSON WAZ MAKIN’ FUN OF THE US SOLDIERS IN THE AIR CALVALRY WHEN HE MISTOKE THAT TEA PARTY GUY WEARIN’ THAT HAT WHICH HE CALLED A CONFEDERIT HAT. MR PONYTAIL MAN HATZ ARE FREEDOM!

127 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:02:16pm

If there’s a slot opening op at the Food Network, maybe I should pitch my Pie Show?

128 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:02:31pm

Wingnut logic. You can never disagree with anyone that was in the military. As long as he’s on your side politically. Otherwise. Max Cleland.

129 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:03:18pm

“MR PONYTAIL MAN HATZ ARE FREEDOM!”

Wait - do you mean ‘Hates Our Freedom’? Or ‘Hats Are Freedom’?

Because I’m totally cool with the second one. I love hats. They keep the sun off my balding pate, and make me look rakish.

130 piratedan  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:03:25pm

re: #128 Gus

Wingnut logic. You can never disagree with anyone that was in the military. As long as he’s on your side politically. Otherwise. Max Cleland.

see: The John Kerry and Chuck Hagel Corollaries

131 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:03:31pm

GUS802 IS A PERONIST FROM ARGENTINA WHO LIVED WITH HIS SISTER AND HAZ A HERNIA. HE’S ALSO A JIHADIST LOVIN’ LIBTARD!

132 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:04:50pm

re: #131 Gus

You know, when I saw ‘Peronista’ yesterday, my mind saw ‘Peritonitis’.

133 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:07:40pm

re: #130 piratedan

see: The John Kerry and Chuck Hagel Corollaries

Wait - the Secretaries of State and Defense had corollaries? That’s awful! Obama must be working them too hard. And Kerry even rides a bike!
//

134 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:08:45pm

upworthy.com

Apologies if it has already been posted.

135 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:08:54pm

HOw is everyone this afternoon?

136 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:08:57pm

re: #116 Vicious Babushka

Butterfat and sow belly futures down sharply.

137 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:09:30pm

I IZ SITTIN’ HERE IN MY GREASE MONKEY SHOP WATCHING THEM LIBTARDS OVER AT LITTLE GREEN FASCIISTBALLS. COPYING AND A PASTING BECAUSE I IZ THE BOILER ROOM WORKER. I LOVE ARE COUNTRY AND WANNA KEEP IT FREE FROM THE LIKES OF PONY TAIL MAN AND VISCOUS BABOOSHKA!

138 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:12:04pm

re: #135 FemNaziBitch

HOw is everyone this afternoon?

Do you have need to know?

139 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:14:08pm

re: #135 FemNaziBitch

HOw is everyone this afternoon?

Everyone? In the whole world??

This is gonna take some time to answer!!

Lessee,,, shall we start by last name alphabetically?
By country?
By age???

140 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:14:15pm
141 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:14:50pm

re: #137 Gus

… AND VISCOUS BABOOSHKA!

Maybe the syrup in her apple pies?

142 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:15:11pm

re: #38 Charles Johnson

But that is not true. Stored, yes, if it’s inadvertently collected during an investigation and there’s reasonable suspicion that it has something to do with the investigation. To be “utilized,” the documents are extremely clear that an individual warrant has to be obtained.

Undercover cop couple blocks down the street from a known crack house. Watching everyone go by. Taking pictures of known drug suppliers and dealers coming and going. I happen to be walking by at the moment his camera snaps a picture. So I become a photo bomber to a felony. It is now part of the evidence that his detective takes to the court to get a search warrant for this establishment. The judge is not going to look at the one picture I show up in out of thousands and say, “Bring that son of bitch in too!”.

143 Heywood Jabloeme  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:15:24pm

It seems that we are still stuck on the eguavalent of the medieval disucssion of “how many angels can sit on the head of a pin”.

The arguement that a Warrant is issued in order to gather the original Metadata and the analogy that is used is that “in order to find a needle in a haystack one must first have a haystack.” This Metadata has the much, if not all, of the call information for US Citizens, less names, which is a distinction only the most naive thinks makes a difference. The Govt seems to think that it needs Search Warrants issued from the FISA Court in order to get this information as one of these was leaked by Snowden and published by the Guardian.

These FISA Search Warrants for building this Metadata database are said to onlly number in the “few hundred” but that doesn’t convey thier true impact since the one leaked was for millions of phone records over a year period and seemed to be a single one in a rolling series over 5 years.

So, a Secret Agency of the Govt has gone to a Secret Court to get Secret Warrants to gather data on millions of Americans over at least a 5 year peiod. The reason I say “at least” is that it is widely known that under Bush they simply did this without even geting Warrants from the FISA Court. Thier reasoning was this gathering of Metadata wasn’t covered by the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. But under the most currnet law they are required BUT it is also part of the current law that all this is SECRET.

Sure, keeping all this Secret could have some utility - keeping the bad guys anware of what you are doing and know is always to your advantage. But there is another aspect of this sectrecy. If no one knows what is going on no one can challenge it in court. In order to get heard by SCOTUS you have to prove “Standing” and how can you prove standing if it is against the law for you to know that you have standing?

And who thinks that the Supreme Court will uphold a Warrant for collecting all this Metadata on millions of people without showing “prabable cause”?

The Govt is trying to have it both ways:

It thinks that it needs Warrants to regularly collect data on millions of Americans yet it doesn’t want those Warrants tested in the Courts.

If you ask me, Greenwald’s accusations are more factually correct than not - the SECRET Warrants issued by a SECRET Court to a SECRET Govt agency used to collect data on US Citizens has not only never been tested in Court it is designed not to be and the US Govt is making every effort to insure that they are not so these Warrants are not legitmate so in effect, there are none.

144 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:15:24pm

re: #140 darthstar

Crash and burn of another American icon.

145 engineer cat  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:15:32pm

MAD AS HELL: WE The PEOPLE are

we th’ people is probably gots its fat ass on the couch watching the game and sipping blatz

146 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:16:16pm

re: #140 darthstar

Whatever liquor store is between the studio and her house just sold all of their gin to a single customer. She’s not going to take losing her stardom well.

147 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:17:05pm

re: #144 freetoken

Crash and burn of another American icon.

That fire won’t go out for weeks. There’s more petroleum based product in Paula Deen than a tire recycling plant.

148 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:17:54pm

re: #141 freetoken

Maybe the syrup in her apple pies?

That was planned that way. This time. ;)

149 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:18:09pm

For Charles…

GOHMERT!!!

150 jaunte  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:19:45pm

re: #149 darthstar

As soon as Gohmert started telling that story, the bullshit alarms went off.

151 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:20:45pm

re: #149 darthstar

152 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:21:15pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Do you have need to know?

Nah, not sure I really care …

:0re: #139 sattv4u2

Everyone? In the whole world??

This is gonna take some time to answer!!

Lessee,,, shall we start by last name alphabetically?
By country?
By age???

Anyone who cares to answer —you can only answer for yourself.

153 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:21:19pm

re: #140 darthstar

I just read her entire testimony. It is difficult to see how she’d come off worse.

154 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:22:26pm

I never understood Paula Dean. I don’t understand most cooking shows.

155 engineer cat  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:23:10pm

what is it with these teevee chef types?

first the molester guy and now this

156 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:23:14pm

In other news, I’ve got a QA candidate interviewing for my team right now that I am 100% certain I want to hire. Very bright, articulate, and answered all coding/technical questions without flinching once.

I love it when I find talented people.

157 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:24:11pm
158 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:24:20pm

re: #153 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I just read her entire testimony. It is difficult to see how she’d come off worse.

She should have finished that masters in security from Liverpool before taking a job with Booz Allen…oh, wait…I’m getting Paula Deen mixed up with Edward Snowden…never mind.

159 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:25:20pm

WHY ISN’T THE GLENN GREENWALD THERE! LIARS! FASCIST STASI OBAMA-BUSH-HITLERIAN NEOCONS IN THE BACK POCKET OF BANKSTERS AND MONSANTO!!11TY

160 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:27:04pm


Derp.

161 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:27:44pm

re: #132 GeneJockey

You know, when I saw ‘Peronista’ yesterday, my mind saw ‘Peritonitis’.

I’m afraid this song started playing in my mind.

Youtube Video

162 jaunte  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:28:54pm

“…Wages fell at the fastest rate ever recorded during the first quarter of this year, the government’s Bureau of Labor Statistics reported.

Hourly wages fell 3.8 percent in the first quarter, the biggest drop since the BLS began tracking compensation in 1947. Productivity rose half a percentage point. The result was that what economists call “labor unit costs” fell 4.3 percent.”

163 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:32:28pm

Reading over Greenwald’s piece again, I was struck by this section:

NSA minimization procedures signed by Holder in 2009 set out that once a target is confirmed to be within the US, interception must stop immediately. However, these circumstances do not apply to large-scale data where the NSA claims it is unable to filter US communications from non-US ones.

The NSA is empowered to retain data for up to five years and the policy states “communications which may be retained include electronic communications acquired because of limitations on the NSA’s ability to filter communications”.

When Greenwald writes “large-scale data,” what he’s actually talking about are the fiber optic lines that run into and out of the US, carrying the vast majority of the world’s internet and phone activity. Obviously it’s impossible to filter this much data in real time and some data from US citizens is inevitably going to be collected.

But Greenwald elides the details of this and just calls it “large-scale data” instead of what it is — international data. That’s what I mean by deliberate misrepresentation.

164 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:32:53pm

re: #162 jaunte

“…Wages fell at the fastest rate ever recorded during the first quarter of this year, the government’s Bureau of Labor Statistics reported.

Hourly wages fell 3.8 percent in the first quarter, the biggest drop since the BLS began tracking compensation in 1947. Productivity rose half a percentage point. The result was that what economists call “labor unit costs” fell 4.3 percent.”

But hey, corporate profits are at an all time high, so that’s okay.
//

165 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:33:16pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

Glenn Greenwald - debunking Glenn Greenwald since June 2013.

166 Lidane  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:33:20pm

Lizards rejoice! Our long national nightmare is over:


Too bad being a bigot only costs you a cooking show. In some places, it gets you elected to Congress.

167 Gus  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:36:31pm

bbl

168 darthstar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:36:49pm
169 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:37:00pm

Afternoon Lizardim. 50/50 burgers are going on the grill here soon, one of my favorites. I just hope everything gets cooked before the next round of thunderstorms. Speaking of thunderstorms, I see the derp is thundering across the fruited plain today. How go things among the lizardfolk?

170 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:38:46pm

Also note that the entire system Greenwald is describing was explicitly designed to prevent abuse. “Must stop immediately” is about as strong a directive as you’ll ever see. If they have reasonable suspicion, then a US citizens’ data can be stored —but even here there are strong regulations. It has to be anonymized and requires an individual warrant to be accessed or investigated further.

What more does anyone think needs to be done? Is there still a potential for abuse - obviously yes, as in any human activity. But it’s clear that the system was designed to try to avoid it.

171 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:38:50pm

re: #153 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I just read her entire testimony. It is difficult to see how she’d come off worse.

ANOTHER VICTIM OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!! FREE SPEECH IS DEAD!!

172 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:39:55pm

re: #170 Charles Johnson

Also note that the entire system Greenwald is describing was explicitly designed to prevent abuse. “Must stop immediately” is about as strong a directive as you’ll ever see. If they have reasonable suspicion a US citizens’ data can be stored —but even here there are strong regulations. It has to be anonymized and requires an individual warrant to be accessed or investigated further.

What more does anyone think needs to be done? Is there still a potential for abuse - obviously yes, as in any human activity. But it’s clear that the system was designed to try to avoid it.

But remember, Charles, when an evil President like the one we have now comes into office, all those possibilities will suddenly become reality.

1984! Orwell! DERPITY DERP!!!1!one

173 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:40:35pm

re: #168 darthstar

Paula Deen could be co-host for Fox and Friends. At least they’d get their fill of deep fried candy.

174 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:41:26pm

My neighbors just had their first grand-baby AND their younger son is coming home for a visit (Marine). I think they may implode with happiness.

175 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:41:52pm

re: #155 engineer cat

what is it with these teevee chef types?

first the molester guy and now this

Paula Deen cookware - coming soon to a T J Maxx near you!

176 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:43:30pm

re: #174 FemNaziBitch

My neighbors just had their first grand-baby AND their younger son is coming home for a visit (Marine). I think they may implode with happiness.

Two of my college buddies had their first kids yesterday. My cup overfloweth with cute right now.

177 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:43:40pm

Summer Solstice gave me a gift this morning: the first ripe blueberries.
Granted, there were only seven of them…but they are ripe and delicious!
With 50 blueberry bushes, I’m gonna be busy for a while….

178 GeneJockey  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:43:54pm

re: #173 freetoken

Paula Deen could be co-host for Fox and Friends. At least they’d get their fill of deep fried candy.

I saw somewhere that, following on the success of Deep-fried Snickers, the latest State Fair food is Deep Fried Butter. That’s right! Deep Fat Fried Deep Fat.

179 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:45:46pm

Finished A Disease of the Public Mind by Thomas Fleming last night.

I enjoyed the author’s writing style. I had forgotten the old adage “Fear of Slave Revolt” —“our daughters being raped” etc, etc, etc.

The Haiti uprising and Nat Turner did a lot to aid the relatively few big planters in perpetuating their exploitations. John Brown and other militant abolitionists using violence wasn’t good either.

I see a lot of similarities in current events.

Humans don’t learn from history, do they?

180 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:47:16pm

re: #178 GeneJockey

I saw somewhere that, following on the success of Deep-fried Snickers, the latest State Fair food is Deep Fried Butter. That’s right! Deep Fat Fried Deep Fat.

Because everyone needs a Deep Fat Fryer!

And people wonder why the Southern States are known as the Stroke Belt.

181 Kragar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:54:51pm

Bryan Fischer: Hillary is a ‘white person’ so Obama will have to ‘sit in the back of the bus’

On his Thursday radio show, Bryan Fischer said Democrats “are turning all of their attention to Hillary Clinton” before the 2016 presidential race.

“What you’re about to see, ladies and gentlemen, is Barack Obama is going to be kicked to the back of the Democratic bus,” he explained. “This guy has now become a liability for the Democratic Party.”

“And the Democratic Party is going to tell him to ‘Sit in the back of the bus, the front of the Democratic bus belongs to the white person, Hillary Clinton.’”

Which is why Hilary was the 2008 Democratic Party nominee for POTUS.
/

182 BeenHereAwhile  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:56:19pm

re: #4 GeneJockey

Gah. This ‘Store’ (or Collect) vs ‘Use’ think keeps coming up.

When the Universal Background Checks for guns was being debated, gun nuts said that merely the fact that the information about someone requesting a pre-sale check was being collected AT ALL, even if it was required to be destroyed after a certain period, was tantamount to REGISTRATION! Which, as we all know, is the last step before TOTAL CONFISCATION!!!!

The NRA membership list is exactly what the Gun-Registration-Means-Total-Confiscation folk fear the most. A national list of gun owners.

Irony, how does that work?

183 Ming  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:57:09pm

re: #104 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

You take that story on face value?

Oh no, I don’t take the story at face value. I have no information in regard to whether or not it (or parts thereof) are true. But for me, it gave an interesting new viewpoint on what can happen when one organization or another acquires a lot of power.

About the story itself, it’s far from the worst story I’ve read about the War on Drugs. Thankfully, in this case, no one was killed.

184 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:00:39pm

Nate Silver’s team on bringing Big Data close to home:

From Campaign War Room to Big-Data Broom

bits.blogs.nytimes.com

(Uses up one of your NYT free monthly reads.)

185 Kragar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:01:06pm

Howard Dean Weighs Another Presidential Bid

The only thing that comes to mind is …

BEEYAAH!!!!

186 bratwurst  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:01:07pm

Fox News Correspondent Defends Deen Against ‘Liberal, Anti-South Media’

(Because conservatives from the south are TOTALLY ok with all of this?!?)

187 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:01:59pm

re: #186 bratwurst

Fox News Correspondent Defends Deen Against ‘Liberal, Anti-South Media’

(Because conservatives from the south are TOTALLY ok with all of this?!?)

One never knows, do one?

188 jaunte  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:02:18pm
189 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:03:15pm

re: #186 bratwurst

Told’ja.

Fox and Friends to become Fox and Butter Fat.

190 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:04:00pm

re: #173 freetoken

Paula Deen could be co-host for Fox and Friends. At least they’d get their fill of deep fried candy.

Paula Deen is such a fake being a butter pimp.
Every Southern cook knows that it’s lard or nothing at all…

191 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:06:35pm

re: #190 Backwoods_Sleuth

Paula Deen is such a fake being a butter pimp.
Every Southern cook knows that it’s lard or nothing at all…

Bacon grease was the order of the day in my grandma’s household. She always kept a cup of it next to the stove.

192 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:07:58pm

re: #191 thedopefishlives

Bacon grease was the order of the day in my grandma’s household. She always kept a cup of it next to the stove.

bacon grease indeed.
I have fond childhood memories of bacon grease sammiches, even though my aging arteries wish they had never happened…

193 Backwoods_Sleuth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:08:47pm

re: #191 thedopefishlives

and, one can not make a pot of proper greenbeans without bacon grease and a nice slab of smoked hog jowl…

194 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:10:15pm

re: #192 Backwoods_Sleuth

bacon grease indeed.
I have fond childhood memories of bacon grease sammiches, even though my aging arteries wish they had never happened…

My grandfather was a top-notch fisherman. Naturally, fish fry was the main course most days in my mom’s household. I got to have some of grandma’s fried fish once - it was delicious, to be sure.

195 Jayleia  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:14:49pm

re: #179 FemNaziBitch

The most important thing you learn from history is that people don’t really learn from history

196 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:16:09pm

Who knew galaxies could be so bendy?

Image: hs-2013-23-a-print.jpg

197 The Mountain That Blogs  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:16:58pm
198 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:21:58pm

re: #197 The Mountain That Blogs

ZOMG HE MUST HAVE BEEN ON TO SOMETHING NOW TEH GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO DISCREDIT HIM!!!

199 Bulworth  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:22:00pm

Um, Yahoo News goes birther:

President Barack Obama makes the first extended trip to Africa of his presidency next week—but he won’t be stopping in the country of his birth.

Also derps about “cost of trip” to Africa.

200 b.d.  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:25:49pm

re: #197 The Mountain That Blogs

The Spy who Bored me.

201 Joanne  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:26:03pm

U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage in sealed criminal complaint

Federal prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint against the former National Security Agency contractor who has admitted leaking a trove of documents about top-secret surveillance programs, and the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant, according to U.S. officials. Snowden was charged with espionage, theft and conversion of government property, the officials said.

Read more at:
washingtonpost.com
.

202 Kragar  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:26:37pm

re: #200 b.d.

The Spy who Bored me.

To live and let derp

203 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:26:43pm

re: #201 Joanne

MARTYR!!

204 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:28:40pm

re: #202 Kragar

To live and let derp

From China with Love

205 freetoken  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:29:14pm

re: #204 Eclectic Cyborg

Snowfall

206 blueraven  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:31:04pm

re: #199 Bulworth

Um, Yahoo News goes birther:

Also derps about “cost of trip” to Africa.

What in the hell, Yahoo? Somebody needs to correct and explain or be fired.

207 thedopefishlives  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:33:32pm

re: #205 freetoken

Snowfall

On His Imperial Majesty’s Secret Service

208 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:33:42pm

OT, but Auto Dealerships in NY decided to go full-on corrupt.

After losing lawsuit against Tesla, New York auto dealers back legislation to block direct car sales

Most of me wishes this sort of corruption was illegal under some sort of Anti-Trust act.

209 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:40:08pm

re: #204 Eclectic Cyborg

From China with Love

Failglenn and the Snowden

210 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 3:47:54pm

re: #53 lawhawk

[snip]
That said, the numbers do seem to lean towards a rubber stamp, which is the Socky McSockpuppet line, but that ignores that there are so few of these requests in any given year as compared to the overall population that we’re talking about a very narrow use of the rules.

Taking comfort in a relatively small number of [FISA] requests in any particular period may wrong-headed.

Christopher Soghoian reported in 2010: “It’s important to note that the stats that I have by and large don’t cover intelligence, and the reason for that is that intelligence requests are shrouded in secrecy. We have some stats regarding the number of FISA orders …but they list the number of requests, or number of court orders, not the number of individuals, and so one court order can get 10,000 people’s information.”
DEFCON 18: Your ISP and the Government: Best Friends Forever 1/3 —from about 03:00 to 04:15

211 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 6:58:07pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

And that’s one point that everyone seems to ignore: if it’s stream-captured, you can do the processing later and discard what you don’t want at the point of processing. IOW, the data is being processed offline in near-realtime.

According to this Bloomberg BusinessWeek article, the reporter makes the statement that the former officials claim the spooks just from overseas egress, is 2 petabytes per hour.

Let that sink in a bit.

212 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 7:05:41pm

re: #195 Jayleia

And therefore most are doomed to repeat it.

But in Snowden’s case, he saw what happened to previous NSA whistle-blowers and high-tailed it out of the US. To say that he didn’t learn anything from history would be folly. There’s now a several-kilometer air-gap between Snowden and the US. At least, from what we currently know about the current listed charges Charles outlined, it seems the government is being very measured in the charges, which is a 180-degree difference from what happened with Arron Swartz.

213 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 7:09:22pm

re: #104 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Especially coming for Sully….

214 jfrentzen  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 7:39:18pm

The point of all this is that large numbers of Americans DON’T want the government to collect any data on us, at any time, anywhere, none no how. The niggling and persnickering over turns of phrase and details of this report vs. that report misses the point completely. No taking of meta data, or any data or phone calls. It has been shown that the NSA records voice phone calls. One is one too many. LGF has sadly turned into another apologist for the Obama team’s “transformation of America,” very much in lockstep. Never mind the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights. Who’s getting paid off here?

215 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 8:53:36pm

Last chance dead thread hero - denied!

216 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 22, 2013 2:44:18am

re: #214 jfrentzen

Do you want them to take the census, or is that too much data collection?


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