In 2009, Snowden Said Leakers “Should Be Shot” - but He Told Greenwald He Planned to Leak in 2008

Another discrepancy
US News • Views: 34,292

In 2009 chat logs from Ars Technica, Edward Snowden sounded a lot like Dick Cheney on the issue of leakers and national security: Four Years Ago, Ed Snowden Thought Leakers Should Be ‘Shot’.

“Those people should be shot in the balls,” Snowden apparently said of leakers in a January 2009 chat. Snowden had logged into an Internet Relay Chat (IRC) server associated with Ars Technica. While Ars itself didn’t log the conversations, multiple participants in the discussions kept logs of the chats and provided them to the technology site.

At this point, Snowden’s evolution into a fierce critic of the national security establishment was in its early stages. Snowden was incensed at the New York Times, which had described secret negotiations between the United States and Israel over how best to deal with Iran’s suspected nuclear program.

“Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus christ. They’re like wikileaks.” Snowden wrote. “You don’t put that s— in the NEWSPAPER.”

“They have a HISTORY of this s—,” he continued, making liberal use of capital letters and profanity. “These are the same people who blew the whole ‘we could listen to osama’s cell phone’ thing. The same people who screwed us on wiretapping. Over and over and over again.”

He said he enjoyed “ethical reporting.” But “VIOLATING NATIONAL SECURITY? no. That s— is classified for a reason. It’s not because ‘oh we hope our citizens don’t find out.’ It’s because ‘this s— won’t work if iran knows what we’re doing.’”

“I am so angry right now. This is completely unbelievable.”

I’d be perfectly willing to give Snowden a pass on changing his beliefs. (After all, I did.) However — LGF contributor simoom pointed out this morning that the views expressed in these chat logs differ significantly from what Snowden said in his first interview with Glenn Greenwald:

Q: When did you decide to leak the documents?

A: “You see things that may be disturbing. When you see everything you realise that some of these things are abusive. The awareness of wrong-doing builds up. There was not one morning when I woke up [and decided this is it]. It was a natural process.

“A lot of people in 2008 voted for Obama. I did not vote for him. I voted for a third party. But I believed in Obama’s promises. I was going to disclose it [but waited because of his election]. He continued with the policies of his predecessor.”

So — in his statements to Greenwald, Snowden claimed he was already planning to leak classified information in 2008. But in the chat logs from 2009, he said leakers “should be shot in the balls.”

A slight discrepancy, to say the least.

Jump to bottom

206 comments
1 Kragar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:35:16am

I eagerly await Greenwald narcissistic flailings to explain this.

2 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:37:34am

And yet wingnuts with “Patriot!” in their Twitter profiles are cheering Snowflake as a “Courageous TRUTH TELLER”

YOU CAN’T EXPLAIN THAT!!

3 darthstar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:37:59am

re: #1 Kragar

I eagerly await Greenwald narcissistic flailings to explain this.

Shorter Greenwald: Why are you asking/attacking me? I didn’t steal the documents! I’m just here to promote the hero in all of this…Glenn Greenwald.

4 danarchy  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:38:02am

He can always say he knew the NSA was monitoring his chats and he was trying to keep his cover or some BS.

5 dragonath  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:38:49am

I see the National Review isn’t calling gay marriage a victory for civil rights.

Gee. I wonder why.

6 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:39:51am

re: #4 danarchy

Yes, that’s what I said in the previous thread. He can claim he was being paranoid. That would be par for the course.

7 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:40:03am

Can we reinstate DOMA just to keep GG’s traitorous ass out of our country?

8 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:40:22am

Sounds conflicting to me. I suppose it’s possible he was trying to cover his ass but those read like sincere rants to me. I’m feeling that Snowden was motivated by something beyond disillusionment.

9 Kragar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:41:43am

re: #7 Dr. Matt

Can we reinstate DOMA just for GG to keep his traitorous ass out of our country?

Why would Greenwald want to live in a totalitarian hellhole like the US when he could move to Russia or China?
/

10 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:42:12am
“They have a HISTORY of this s—,” he continued, making liberal use of capital letters and profanity. “These are the same people who blew the whole ‘we could listen to osama’s cell phone’ thing. The same people who screwed us on wiretapping.

Maybe he can go for an insanity defense.

11 dragonath  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:42:33am

re: #7 Dr. Matt

Can we reinstate DOMA just for GG to keep his traitorous ass out of our country?

Nah, the end of DOMA is worth more than Greenwald will ever be.

12 BroncD  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:42:53am

Such a hero for the Left.

13 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:43:00am

re: #11 dragonath

Nah, the end of DOMA is worth more than Greenwald will ever be.

Yep that.

14 b.d.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:45:46am

Cue the “Quit attacking the messenger” comments, they’ll be with you just as soon as they mop up from their Snowden is a badass because of encryption slobberfest.

15 Minor_L  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:45:58am

re: #11 dragonath

Also, it’s not like we’re not constantly subjected to him, anyway.

16 geoffm33  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:46:46am
17 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:47:14am
18 StephenMeansMe  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:48:38am

Looks like he shot himself in the balls foot with those statements.

19 darthstar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:48:44am

re: #17 NJDhockeyfan

Now he’s a FORMER Patriot…of course, it was kind of the DA to allow the Patriots to terminate his contract before filing charges.

20 Ian G.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:50:00am

re: #9 Kragar

Why would Greenwald want to live in a totalitarian hellhole like the US when he could move to Russia or China?
/

Yes, Russia is well known for its lack of homophobia and acceptance of gays. Greenwald would fit in well there. Come to think of it, Pakistan would be even better (especially given that Greenwald is Jewish).

////////////////

21 geoffm33  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:50:05am

re: #19 darthstar

Now he’s a FORMER Patriot…of course, it was kind of the DA to allow the Patriots to terminate his contract before filing charges.

He was released after the arrest (before being charged in court though)

22 darthstar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:50:12am
23 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:50:17am

re: #10 Bulworth

Maybe he can go for an insanity inanity defense.

FTFY

24 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:51:04am

re: #19 darthstar

Now he’s a FORMER Patriot…of course, it was kind of the DA to allow the Patriots to terminate his contract before filing charges.

Now he’s inmate number 2635362726376736736.

25 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:51:42am

re: #16 geoffm33

OT: Former Patriots TE Aaron Hernandez Charged With Murder

Pretty crazy. Thought at the most he’d be charged as an accessory.

26 darthstar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:52:05am

re: #21 geoffm33

He was released after the arrest (before being charged in court though)

Well, one can’t have an active player charged with murder…makes the whole team look bad.

Seriously…if he’s guilty, fuck him. If he isn’t…then someone’s going to have to pay out some remaining contract.

27 andres  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:52:07am

re: #7 Dr. Matt

Can we reinstate DOMA just to keep GG’s traitorous ass out of our country?

Not even in jest.

28 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:52:37am

re: #17 NJDhockeyfan

NFL player gets charged with murder, it’s all over the news networks.

Texas state Senator fights through a 13 hour filibuster and through all of the crooked machinations of the GOP to try and stop her and all the major networks ignore it entirely.

God, our media sucks in this country.

29 geoffm33  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:52:55am

re: #24 NJDhockeyfan

Now he’s inmate number 2635362726376736736.

2013 Aaron Hernandez Game Jerseys

30 b.d.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:53:17am

re: #24 NJDhockeyfan

When are the Cowboys going to sign him?

31 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:53:39am
32 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:54:05am

re: #28 Lidane

NFL player gets charged with murder, it’s all over the news networks.

Texas state Senator fights through a 13 hour filibuster and through all of the crooked machinations of the GOP to try and stop her and all the major networks ignore it entirely.

God, our media sucks in this country.

Priorities.

33 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:54:07am

re: #30 b.d.

When are the Cowboys going to sign him?

Right after the Bengals do.

34 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:54:59am

re: #30 b.d.

When are the Cowboys going to sign him?

re: #33 HappyWarrior

Right after the Bengals do.

Or the Raiders, if Art Davis were still alive.

35 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:55:45am
36 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:56:10am

re: #28 Lidane

Actually CBS and CNN reported on the Texas filibuster this morning.

37 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:57:20am

re: #36 Bulworth

Actually CBS and CNN reported on the Texas filibuster this morning.

After the fact, not as it was happening…I think that’s what Lidane’s torqued about.

38 Kragar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:57:44am

Limbaugh changes his tune: ‘Why do we even need a court if it is going to behave like this?’

Only a day after applauding the Supreme Court’s ruling gutting the Voting Rights Act, Rush Limbaugh suggested doing away with it entirely after it ruled against both Proposition 8 and the Defense of Marriage Act.

“Why do we even need a court if it is going to behave like this?” Limbaugh raged on Wednesday. “Why do we even need a Congress? Why don’t we, every time we want something, just find the nearest judge and say, ‘Hey Judge, I want to do this, what do you think?’ And whatever the judge says is fine. Doesn’t have to be a member of the Supreme Court, just a judge.”

39 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:58:29am

re: #37 AlexRogan

After the fact, not as it was happening…I think that’s what Lidane’s torqued about.

Right and I believe Lidane pointed this out last night but during the filibuster last night, CNN had a frigging special on the Kardashians because you know celeb reality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> women’s rights.

40 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:58:39am

re: #37 AlexRogan

After the fact, not as it was happening…I think that’s what Lidane’s torqued about.

And this remains true as well:

As for the whole Hernandez thing, this is how many fucks I give:

41 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:58:43am

Does anyone else think it odd that Snowden’s essentially disappeared while sitting at the Moscow airport?


How exactly does this happen? And I’m not counting conspiracies or similar thoughts.

42 b.d.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 11:59:48am

re: #35 NJDhockeyfan

BREAKING: #Snowden says he will start shooting people in the balls if they continue to seek his whereabouts.

I don’t think Snowden will ever touch a gun again, ever.

43 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:09pm

re: #37 AlexRogan

Ah, OK. Yeah media a little late to the party.

44 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:12pm

re: #41 lawhawk

Does anyone else think it odd that Snowden’s essentially disappeared while sitting at the Moscow airport?

How exactly does this happen? And I’m not counting conspiracies or similar thoughts.

There are probably MOAR SEEKRIT TUNNELZ ‘N’ LAIRZ beneath the Moscow airport than there are beneath the Denver airport!

45 efuseakay  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:25pm

Ironic, seeing how Snowden has no balls.

46 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:27pm

re: #41 lawhawk

Does anyone else think it odd that Snowden’s essentially disappeared while sitting at the Moscow airport?


How exactly does this happen? And I’m not counting conspiracies or similar thoughts.

Edward Snowden is Keyser Söze.

47 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:37pm

re: #38 Kragar

Limbaugh changes his tune: ‘Why do we even need a court if it is going to behave like this?’

I can see Rush in 1967 after Loving claiming that the court sanctioned the mongrolization of the races.

48 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:52pm
49 Ian G.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:00:59pm

re: #38 Kragar

My surprise, let me show it to you.

50 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:01:36pm

re: #39 HappyWarrior

Oh, something on the Kardashians? Ah well that’s understandable then. The Kardashians need more coverage. //

51 Ian G.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:05pm

re: #47 HappyWarrior

I can see Rush in 1967 after Loving in 2013 claiming that the court sanctioned the mongrolization of the races.

Fixed.

52 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:13pm

re: #28 Lidane


Washington Post was more interested in covering the costs of the President’s trip to Africa than reporting on the breaking events out of Austin (other than carrying AP wire reports).

53 b.d.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:14pm

re: #44 Vicious Babushka

There are probably MOAR SEEKRIT TUNNELZ ‘N’ LAIRZ beneath the Moscow airport than there are beneath the Denver airport!

Baggage ain’t the only thing that gets disappeared at the Moscow airport.

54 GunstarGreen  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:19pm

re: #38 Kragar

Limbaugh changes his tune: ‘Why do we even need a court if it is going to behave like this?’

This just in: Bloviator In Chief Rush Blovitron bloviates about blovations in blovistan.

In related news: Partisan hack praises the courts when they agree with him, condemns them when they don’t. Film at 11.

55 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:20pm

With apologies to Larry Morey, who wrote the original lyrics, sung to the tune of “Heigh-ho”, as a duet of the falsetto voices of Glenn Greenwald and Snowjob:

We dig dig dig dig dig dig dig in a nets the whole day through
To dig dig dig dig dig dig dig is what we like to do

It ain’t no trick
To get famous quick
If you shoot shoot shoot
With a rifle or a gun
In a balls (IN THE BALLS!)
In a balls (IN THE BALLS!)

Where a million-faux-patriot
Falls

We dig dig dig dig dig dig dig from early morn to night
We dig dig dig dig dig dig dig up everything in sight

We dig up whoppers
By the score
A thousand fant’sies
Sometimes more
We don’t know what we dig them for
We dig dig digga dig dig

(musical intro)

Hi ho!
Hi ho!
Hi ho! Hi ho! Hi ho!

Hi ho, Hi ho
It’s China from work we go
(whistles)
Hi ho, Hi ho, Hi ho

Hi ho, Hi ho
It’s Russia from work we go
(whistles)
Hi ho, Hi ho
(more whistles)

Hi ho, Hi ho
Hi ho, Hi ho
Hi ho, Hi ho
Hi ho, Hum

Hi ho, Hi ho
It’s Disgrace from work we go
(whistles)
Hi ho, hi ho, hi ho, hi ho

56 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:38pm

re: #50 Bulworth

Oh, something on the Kardashians? Ah well that’s understandable then. The Kardashians need more coverage. //

Especially Kims cleavage!

(or not)!!
/

57 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:02:40pm

re: #41 lawhawk

Does anyone else think it odd that Snowden’s essentially disappeared while sitting at the Moscow airport?


How exactly does this happen? And I’m not counting conspiracies or similar thoughts.

Not to be a conspiracist about this, but I think that ol’ Putin’s had some of his ex-KGB buddies that are still on the job tune Snowden up.

At the very least, they’ve probably been going through everything Snowden had on or in him with a fine-toothed comb and making him very, very uncomfortable.

58 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:03:00pm

re: #51 Ian G.

Fixed.

Ha true enough. Really though arguing against the court system as a whole because they do a ruling you don’t like. Ah there goes America’s most influential conservative again.

59 piratedan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:03:00pm

re: #38 Kragar

Limbaugh changes his tune: ‘Why do we even need a court if it is going to behave like this?’

It’s amazing that all things have to go the R’s way on all things. When the VRA decision/debacle was handed down, all over the bloggerlands there were cries of despair but also cries of we’ll work our asses off to overturn this and beat them anyways. The R’s, screw you, we wanna take our ball and go home.

60 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:03:23pm

re: #41 lawhawk

Does anyone else think it odd that Snowden’s essentially disappeared while sitting at the Moscow airport?


How exactly does this happen? And I’m not counting conspiracies or similar thoughts.

I think the Russians probably gave him some private accommodations while they debrief him. It would keep him from talking to the press about what he’s telling them and what they’re asking about. I also imagine it has to do with his own safety. Other passengers in the terminal might attack him, or try to bribe him of even foreign agents could assassinate him.

61 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:03:23pm

re: #48 earthanimal

From the 2009 chat:

Here he is in 2013:

You may disagree with his evaluation of the harm that his leaks caused to foreign intelligence, but I think the case can be made that there is no great inconsistency in his 2009 and 2013 statements. In 2009, the leaks concerned primarily foreign surveillance, and his 2013 leaks, he would claim, concern primarily domestic surveillance, which, arguably, serves the public interest.

That’s fine, until he schlepps his laptops to China and Russia. No more ‘careful evaluation’ then.

62 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:03:42pm

Notice that Ars Technica didn’t keep these chat logs - they were saved by other people in the chat rooms.

What kind of nerd hangs on to IRC chat logs for years? Sheesh. And people are worried about the NSA.

63 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:04:38pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Notice that Ars Technica didn’t keep these chat logs - they were saved by other people in the chat rooms.

What kind of nerd hangs on to IRC chat logs for years? Sheesh. And people are worried about the NSA.

We have met the enemy and he is us?

64 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:04:41pm

re: #53 b.d.

Baggage ain’t the only thing that gets disappeared at the Moscow airport.

In Soviet Russia, baggage handles you!

65 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:04:48pm

re: #59 piratedan

It’s amazing that all things have to go the R’s way on all things. When the VRA decision/debacle was handed down, all over the bloggerlands there were cries of despair but also cries of we’ll work our asses off to overturn this and beat them anyways. The R’s, screw you, we wanna take our ball and go home.

66 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:05:56pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Hoarders gotta hoard. The same kind of OCD that gets people to collect all kinds of ephemera in meatspace is likely to get these folks to keep all kinds of records/information from their Internet interactions.

67 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:06:13pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Notice that Ars Technica didn’t keep these chat logs - they were saved by other people in the chat rooms.

What kind of nerd hangs on to IRC chat logs for years? Sheesh. And people are worried about the NSA.

I log all my chats.

But I don’t go into general use chat rooms, it’s just more for my own reference. Useful when I need to pull up something someone (like me) said. I save links in there too.

68 efuseakay  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:06:14pm

re: #48 earthanimal

From the 2009 chat:

Here he is in 2013:

You may disagree with his evaluation of the harm that his leaks caused to foreign intelligence, but I think the case can be made that there is no great inconsistency in his 2009 and 2013 statements. In 2009, the leaks concerned primarily foreign surveillance, and his 2013 leaks, he would claim, concern primarily domestic surveillance, which, arguably, serves the public interest.

What right does he have to decide what is/isn’t harmful? Who does he report to?

69 jaunte  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:06:15pm

Hoarders, now with Cloud data storage.

70 geoffm33  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:06:26pm

re: #64 Vicious Babushka

In Soviet Russia, baggage handles you!

That’s two Soviet Russia meme gems from you in two days. Bravo!

71 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:06:32pm

And now, the minimizers.

72 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:06:40pm

With ecuador going wobbly on him I still think Iran is his best bet.

73 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:07:13pm

re: #57 AlexRogan

ol’ Putin’s had some of his ex-KGB buddies that are still on the job tuning Snowden up.

I don’t think there’s any need too. Looks as if Snowden is willing to give info just for a warm smilere:

#41 lawhawk

Does anyone else think it odd that Snowden’s essentially disappeared while sitting at the Moscow airport?
Not at all. I’m sure there are large areas there out of the public eye where the gov’t can make a “guest” comfy for a short termre: #60

Killgore Trout

I think the Russians probably gave him some private accommodations while they debrief him

Agreed

74 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:07:56pm

re: #48 earthanimal

From the 2009 chat:

Here he is in 2013:

You may disagree with his evaluation of the harm that his leaks caused to foreign intelligence, but I think the case can be made that there is no great inconsistency in his 2009 and 2013 statements. In 2009, the leaks concerned primarily foreign surveillance, and his 2013 leaks, he would claim, concern primarily domestic surveillance, which, arguably, serves the public interest.

No, actually - he can’t claim that at all, since he released details of NSA spying on Chinese facilities, and documents about UK spying on Russia.

75 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:07:59pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Notice that Ars Technica didn’t keep these chat logs - they were saved by other people in the chat rooms.

What kind of nerd hangs on to IRC chat logs for years? Sheesh. And people are worried about the NSA.

Hey, if you have a standalone install of a IRC client that you keep on a separate drive/partition that doesn’t need to be reinstalled if Windows craps the bed, it’s very feasible to have years of logs if logging was enabled and someone wanted to keep them.

76 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:09:26pm

re: #36 Bulworth

Actually CBS and CNN reported on the Texas filibuster this morning.

Yeah, but they ignored it when it was happening.

OTOH, they’re providing live coverage of an NFL player’s arraignment for murder.

77 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:09:34pm

Here are reviews of the “Capsule Hotel” where Snowden is allegedly “holed up”

78 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:10:09pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

No, actually - he can’t claim that at all, since he released details of NSA spying on Chinese facilities, and documents about UK spying on Russia.

Yes, this.

79 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:10:42pm

re: #76 Lidane

Yeah, but they ignored it when it was happening.

OTOH, they’re providing live coverage of an NFL player’s arraignment for murder.

Bread and circuses, my friend, same as it ever was.

80 Kragar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:10:52pm
81 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:11:03pm

re: #77 Vicious Babushka

Here are reviews of the “Capsule Hotel” where Snowden is allegedly “holed up”

I haven’t stayed in one of those capsule-style hotels yet but the concept for an international layover is pretty appealing, I gotta say…

82 Mattand  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:11:35pm

I’m in the process of listening to the current This Week in Tech podcast. Only about 5 minute in, but so far, the entire panel is basically “Free Snowden.”

I like Leo LaPorte, but he’s way, way off on this one.

83 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:11:56pm

re: #65 Interesting Times

Well they’d complain then if it wasn’t for the “terrible” treatment of Robert Bork, Kennedy never would have had gotten picked but they seem to forget that bit in the Constitution where the Senate has the right to reject judicial picks. So here’s to Tony Kennedy, America’s best third choice.

84 Kragar  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:12:32pm


I actually broke out chuckling with this one

85 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:12:55pm

re: #81 klys and whatnot

I haven’t stayed in one of those capsule-style hotels yet but the concept for an international layover is pretty appealing, I gotta say…

We had a 24-hour layover in Amsterdam last year, we left the airport and stayed at a boutique hotel in the city, and I also did some sightseeing.

Here are some pictures of the cells accommodations at the Moscow airport.

86 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:13:55pm

re: #85 Vicious Babushka

We had a 24-hour layover in Amsterdam last year, we left the airport and stayed at a boutique hotel in the city, and I also did some sightseeing.

Here are some pictures of the cells accommodations at the Moscow airport.

Oh, for a 24 hour layover, I’d leave the airport, no question. But 5-6, it’s probably not worth it to leave but the chance to lay down on a bed for sleeping? I am all over that concept. (I can’t sleep well on planes.)

87 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:13:57pm

re: #84 Kragar

Wait… I thought Snowjob was supposed to be a false flag.

Did I get my memes crossed again?

88 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:14:47pm

re: #84 Kragar

You almost had to buy me a new monitor. That’s hilarious.

89 BroncD  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:15:09pm

re: #38 Kragar

Haha, we only like the Supremes when they rule the way we want them to!

90 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:15:21pm

re: #77 Vicious Babushka

re: #81 klys and whatnot

I haven’t stayed in one of those capsule-style hotels yet but the concept for an international layover is pretty appealing, I gotta say…

I have. A cot and a very quiet space during a 6 hour layover.

Went right to the airport after working 12 hours, then a 3 hour domestic flight before a 9 hour international one

Not bad, for what it was (and the price) but I couldn’t imagine being in there for more than 4-8 hours

91 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:15:26pm

re: #84 Kragar

I actually broke out chuckling with this one

I see that Jones forgot his meds today…

92 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:16:47pm

re: #64 Vicious Babushka

In Soviet Russia, baggage handles you!

I had a student a few years ago who said, when I asked her what her job was, “I rape luggage all day.”

What she meant was “I wrap luggage all day.” She worked at the airport.

My students got to witness me choking on my coffee when she said that.

93 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:16:50pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

re: #81 klys and whatnot

I have. A cot and a very quiet space during a 6 hour layover.

Went right to the airport after working 12 hours, then a 3 hour domestic flight before a 9 hour international one

Not bad, for what it was (and the price) but I couldn’t imagine being in there for more than 4-8 hours

I admit, probably wouldn’t be my first choice for a long stay. :)

Next trip to Japan, going to try one of the serious capsule-style ones, where you just get your little bed-tube. Just for the hell of it.

94 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:17:33pm

re: #87 freetoken

Wait… I thought Snowjob was supposed to be a false flag.

Did I get my memes crossed again?

Just don’t cross the streams, else you’ll have all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light in total protonic reversal.

///

95 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:17:50pm
96 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:20:43pm

re: #39 HappyWarrior

Right and I believe Lidane pointed this out last night but during the filibuster last night, CNN had a frigging special on the Kardashians because you know celeb reality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> women’s rights.

They also cared more about the calories in your favorite Starbucks drink than the filibuster fight.

And then CNN wonders why their ratings are shit.

97 piratedan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:21:03pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

re: #81 klys and whatnot

I have. A cot and a very quiet space during a 6 hour layover.

Went right to the airport after working 12 hours, then a 3 hour domestic flight before a 9 hour international one

Not bad, for what it was (and the price) but I couldn’t imagine being in there for more than 4-8 hours

If only there had been a Holiday Inn Express available, perhaps all of this could have been avoided……//

98 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:21:06pm

Job offer is withdrawn after contractor offers to buy Muslim boss a bacon sandwich.

This reminds me of a business luncheon I attended when I worked at GM over 20 years ago. There was nothing for me on the menu so I ordered an iced tea. Meanwhile the guy sitting next to me kept offering from his plate of fried shrimp. All my co-workers knew that I keep kosher but they kept their mouths shut because this guy would have been totally embarrassed.

Also he kept saying “Why are you on a diet? You’re so thin!” LOL.

99 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:21:34pm

re: #96 Lidane

They also cared more about the calories in your favorite Starbucks drink than the filibuster fight.

And then CNN wonders why their ratings are shit.

Yeah they’re pathetic. Don’t know who’s more so them or Fox at this juncture.

100 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:21:53pm

Say a prayer….

101 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:22:06pm

So, to review, conservative evangelicals are butthurt over DOMA and Prop 8 but couldn’t give a shit about the VRA.

Yeah, that’s a religion I’d sink my money and time into. //

102 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:23:28pm

re: #101 Bulworth

Conservative House Republicans Are Furious About the DOMA Ruling

“The Supreme Court undercut the equal protection of every person who voted for their representative…. Now we have an effective oligarchy of five who decide the most fundamental issues of today.” - Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn.

Did they complain about the “oligarchy of five” when the VRA ruling came down?

103 piratedan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:24:01pm

obviously they’re not into that American Exceptionalism credo about America wanting anyone’s poor, tired and hungry

104 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:24:13pm

“elite” = new word for “under water”

105 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:25:31pm

re: #102 freetoken

Al Franken said it best-Judicial activism is best defined by the decisions you don’t like” Or something close to that.

106 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:25:45pm
107 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:26:07pm

re: #102 freetoken

Conservative House Republicans Are Furious About the DOMA Ruling

Did they complain about the “oligarchy of five” when the VRA ruling came down?

I doubt it, since they were probably too busy high-fiving each other all yesterday.

108 Gus  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:26:19pm
109 engineer cat  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:26:43pm

He Planned to Leak

i leak regularly without requiring any planning at all!

110 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:26:46pm

BBL

111 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:27:06pm

re: #108 Gus

Mentioning Dred Scott, the day after the VRA ruling.

112 jaunte  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:27:23pm
When completed, will be elite!

Unending egomania.

113 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:27:41pm

re: #106 Vicious Babushka

No, Bryan, that’s what you want gay folks (like my brother, his SO, and a few of my co-workers) to continue to be, you shithead.

114 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:28:57pm

re: #106 Vicious Babushka

So when God puts that giant iceberg in the way of America that it hits and as a result founders all the anti-gay people will drown first?
//

115 piratedan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:30:10pm

re: #106 Vicious Babushka

it’s because the anti-abortion GOP in Texas has called dibs on the lifeboats//

116 Dr. Matt  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:30:27pm

Here is the definition of a Snowden fanboy:

Excuse me while I puke.

117 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:31:55pm

re: #116 Dr. Matt

Serious denial going on there.

118 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:32:20pm

re: #116 Dr. Matt

“All evidence confirms what I already believed.”

119 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:32:52pm

Stating the obvious:

120 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:33:48pm

I see that the Senate passed an immigration bill, with 69 yea votes.

However, it also appears that Boehner’s way of saving his orange skin is to say “We’ll do our own bill”, which ought to keep him from being voted out as majority leader.

121 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:33:54pm

re: #106 Vicious Babushka

I wonder what that makes actual real Civil Rights activists after Tuesday’s VRA decision?

122 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:34:26pm

re: #105 Political Atheist

Al Franken said it best-Judicial activism is best defined by the decisions you don’t like” Or something close to that.

I think it’s best defined when judges rule based not on constitutionality, as they did in this case, but when they rule based on ignoring a portion of the Constitution.

123 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:35:00pm

re: #108 Gus

Right, because here the Court deprived an entire class of people rights afforded to everyone else. Oh wait, that was the practical result of yesterday’s decision where the Court invalidated Section 4 of the VRA.

Wrong decision. My bad. /

124 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:35:01pm

re: #117 freetoken

Serious denial going on there.

Well, you know de Nile isn’t just a river in Egypt…

125 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:35:43pm

re: #116 Dr. Matt

Here is the definition of a Snowden fanboy:

126 b.d.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:36:57pm

re: #116 Dr. Matt

Because hypocrisy makes you purer?

btw - if anyone other than Snowjob had written those words the fainting couches would have been overflowing. Try typing something similar to that about Snowden now and see the swooning.

127 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:37:25pm
128 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:37:40pm
129 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:38:27pm

re: #127 Lidane

That’s not all he’s in deep denial of.

130 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:39:23pm

Looking at the Salem Communications websites, it seems the USSC rulings on gay marriage are the hot buttons for the religious right, even overshadowing the immigration whine.

131 Ian G.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:39:29pm

re: #119 Lidane

RINO TRAITOR. PRIMARY HIM!!!!!eleventy

132 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:39:39pm

re: #127 Lidane

But despite the almost-immediate reversal on the part of the federal government, Perkins added, “I don’t think time is on the side of those who want to redefine marriage.”

Thanks for playing, Tony. Now, go sit down please.

133 AlexRogan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:40:08pm

re: #129 freetoken

That’s not all he’s in deep denial of.

It would be so delicious to find out that Fischer and Perkins have knocked boots, then they’d have to go get gay-married.

/sorta

134 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:41:13pm
But despite the almost-immediate reversal on the part of the federal government, Perkins added, “I don’t think time is on the side of those who want to redefine marriage.”

So, Tony hasn’t talked to Bryan Fischer, I take it. If he had, he’d know that all kinds of unthinkable things will happen now. Soon. Inevitable. //

135 jaunte  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:42:04pm

re: #127 Lidane

Nice expression. He looks like a two year old refusing to take his medicine.

136 Gus  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:43:16pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

He spent his entire adult life enlisting in the army?

137 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:44:30pm

re: #136 Gus

I question the premise that he’s entered adulthood.

138 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:44:58pm

re: #136 Gus

He spent his entire adult life enlisting in the army?

Sure, and he didn’t want to hurt the US…????

139 Lidane  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:47:40pm
140 Ian G.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:48:27pm

re: #127 Lidane

Perkins added, “I don’t think time is on the side of those who want to redefine marriage.”

Jesus, this is Baghdad Bob level denial. It. Is. Over. The gay right advocates have won.

I guess the Christian right thinks this will be another abortion battle, but I don’t see the parallels at all. I understand the troubling moral aspects of abortion (even if I want it to be legal). There are no troubling moral aspects of gays getting married, which is why everyone save a few wingnuts like Perkins is coming around on the issue.

141 jaunte  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:48:40pm

Not a whistleblower.

So let’s recap so far.

- Snowden admits to joining Booz, for the sole reason of stealing (yes stealing, he’s a common thief too ) intel on NSA programmes.
- Snowden admits to fabricating digital keys so that he could gain access to areas he was not authorized.
-Snowden was in the job only 3 Months (with BAH) before he bolted to the open arms of the CHINESE with FOUR laptops.
jesterscourt.cc

142 freetoken  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:48:40pm

Interesting science story of the day:

Researchers have recovered DNA from a nearly 700,000-year-old horse fossil and assembled a draft of the animal’s genome from it. It is the oldest complete genome to date by a long shot–hundreds of thousands of years older than the previous record holder …

Perkins, Fischer, Bachmann, GOHMERT!, and the like are of course not willing to accept that there were horses around 700,000 years ago.

143 Ian G.  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:54:35pm

re: #142 freetoken

Interesting science story of the day:

Perkins, Fischer, Bachmann, GOHMERT!, and the like are of course not willing to accept that there were horses around 700,000 years ago.

OT, but I visited Crater Lake National Park 2 summers ago, and there was a detailed display at the visitor center that explained the gargantuan volcanic eruption that created the hole that eventually filled with water to become the lake. It mentioned that the eruption happened 7,700 years ago, and was the largest volcanic eruption in North America in the last 600,000 years.

Given how many retirees were walking around the visitor center, and given how many Americans are creationists, I felt sorry in that moment for the park rangers who must have to put up with people hectoring them about those dates, because God created the world 6,000 years ago and derpity derpity derp.

144 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:59:56pm
Perkins added, “I don’t think time is on the side of those who want to redefine marriage.”

Because, for example, young people overwhelmingly oppose SSM. //

145 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:59:59pm

re: #143 Ian G.

Same deal at Yellowstone (which has periodic episodes every 600,000 years or so when it decides to redecorate the entire region as only a supervolcano can do in a major eruption), or Grand Canyon, where billions and billions of years are written into the geological record.

146 GunstarGreen  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 1:00:35pm

Dead serious now, this “HANDFUL OF JUSTICES DICTATING LAWS TO THE WHOLE NATION” bullshit is really starting to piss me off.

Do none of these imbeciles know how their own government works? Do none of them know their own fucking history? Or are they all truly just atavistic assgoblins that are knowingly lying right out of their gangrenous asses?

Into the fucking sun. Every last one of them.

147 polisurgist  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 1:29:17pm

re: #48 earthanimal

From the 2009 chat:

Here he is in 2013:

You may disagree with his evaluation of the harm that his leaks caused to foreign intelligence, but I think the case can be made that there is no great inconsistency in his 2009 and 2013 statements. In 2009, the leaks concerned primarily foreign surveillance, and his 2013 leaks, he would claim, concern primarily domestic surveillance, which, arguably, serves the public interest.

How consistent is it with him handing over documents about US surveillance on China and other foreign countries to pro-Beijing newspapers?

148 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 1:55:24pm
149 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 1:57:00pm

re: #106 Vicious Babushka

Strangely, I have no problem with that.

150 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 2:01:42pm

re: #148 earthanimal

Well, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding here about the nature and content of the information that Snowden is confirmed to have shared regarding foreign surveillance, but I’m not too interested in arguing that point.

Why not? seems a really, really important point, doesn’t it?

The assumption that he has leaked information that harms US interests overseas, even if true, does not show that Snowden was motivated by causing harm. In fact, since even those leaks seem to concern primarily surveillance of private citizens and Universities in those countries, not military systems, it’s not hard to imagine that Snowden believes that these leaks also fall under his general motivating principle of enhanced transparency.

This is only if Snowden is naive and stupid enough to think that Chinese universities aren’t run by the Chinese government.

151 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 2:54:17pm
152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 3:04:31pm

re: #151 earthanimal

Mostly because we don’t know much as fact. I have not seen credible evidence that Snowden has shared any information beyond what he told reporters, and the publicly available information doesn’t look particularly damaging to me. But if you want to claim otherwise, point to the specific information you think is damaging.

You don’t consider the pro-PRC newspaper he gave materials to saying that they include details of hacks on Chinese targets, along with Snowden saying that he’s revealing this stuff, as credible evidence?

Right, but that’s not the same as revealing a hack into a military system and again it’s not clear what operational interests this is supposed to harm.

Why is ‘military system’ the bar? Who set that? The operational interests of finding out, say, all the ways a Chinese University is tapping its students info is pretty obvious, isn’t it? You don’t think we have operational interest in surveying a surveillance state? I know it gets meta, but it seems pretty blatant.

153 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 3:26:14pm
154 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 3:27:17pm

re: #148 earthanimal

What he appears to have exposed so far with regard to Hong Kong and China is the illegal hacking of a wide range of both public and private computer networks by the NSA. It is a strange argument to claim that exposing illegal activities of the US government harms the US. Though most here at LGF will likely claim with some kind of Cheney/Yoo-esque rationalization that somehow none of this was illegal.

As for the comment about 2008 from the original post above, it’s not clear what “it” in the sentence refers to. At that point (June 9), the only thing that had been disclosed were the programs involving domestic spying, or in other words, the vast violations of the 4th Amendment laundered through a parallel system of secret law, a secret non-adversarial “court”, and psuedo-congressional oversight that sheilded it all from any actual oversight or constitutional testing in actual court. But then most LGF readers will just say none of that is illegal either.

Nor, apparently do any LGF readers have any problem with the US government demanding that Russia illegally ‘rendition’ Snowden to the US without due process. No, what really matters here is finding as many ways as possible to spew petty ad hominem vitriol at Edward Snowden.

Since this Snowden thing hit this blog has become eerily like reading a neo-con blog in 2005. The more things change the more they stay the same I guess. Maybe time to change the name to Rage For The Machine.

155 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 3:31:14pm

re: #154 jdoc1357

What he appears to have exposed so far with regard to Hong Kong and China is the illegal hacking of a wide range of both public and private computer networks by the NSA. It is a strange argument to claim that exposing illegal activities of the US government harms the US. Though most here at LGF will likely claim with some kind of Cheney/Yoo-esque rationalization that somehow none of this was illegal.

As for the comment about 2008 from the original post above, it’s not clear what “it” in the sentence refers to. At that point (June 9), the only thing that had been disclosed were the programs involving domestic spying, or in other words, the vast violations of the 4th Amendment laundered through a parallel system of secret law, a secret non-adversarial “court”, and psuedo-congressional oversight that sheilded it all from any actual oversight or constitutional testing in actual court. But then most LGF readers will just say none of that is illegal either.

Nor, apparently do any LGF readers have any problem with the US government demanding that Russia illegally ‘rendition’ Snowden to the US without due process. No, what really matters here is finding as many ways as possible to spew petty ad hominem vitriol at Edward Snowden.

Since this Snowden thing hit this blog has become eerily like reading a neo-con blog in 2005. The more things change the more they stay the same I guess. Maybe time to change the name to Rage For The Machine.

Hi,

Lots of us dislike the Patriot Act immensely but realize that what Snowden has “exposed” is essentially what the Patriot Act authorized the government to do.

That being said, there is absolutely nothing “heroic” about running away from the consequences of one’s actions, especially when the running away takes you directly into the arms of people who have been actively hostile towards the US on a technological level and who have a worse human rights record than the US does.

Now if you want to have a discussion about the Patriot Act itself, by all means, let’s. If you want to claim Snowden is a hero, well, sorry. You won’t find much sympathy from me, and I have hated the Patriot Act from day 1.

156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 3:45:50pm

re: #153 earthanimal

Like I said, “beyond what he told reporters.” I’m not interested in defending the foreign leaks, besides saying that don’t think they are the same kind as he was complaining about in the 2009 chat, so I don’t think there’s necessarily some glaring inconsistency there. I suspect that Snowden sees his leaks concerning China and Russia as consisting essentially of the same type of information as his domestic leaks, i.e. revealing surveillance of citizens by governments.

But then he’s hopelessly naive, since the information isn’t going to to do the citizens of China any good, but they will allow the repressive Chinese government to better repress their citizens.

I’m open to the idea he’s hopelessly naive, of course.

157 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 3:46:25pm

re: #154 jdoc1357

Nor, apparently do any LGF readers have any problem with the US government demanding that Russia illegally ‘rendition’ Snowden to the US without due process. No, what really matters here is finding as many ways as possible to spew petty ad hominem vitriol at Edward Snowden.

We don’t have an extradition treaty with them. That doesn’t mean it’s illegal for them to send us Snowden. Why do you think it does?

158 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:32:14pm

re: #155 klys and whatnot

The Patriot Act did not authorize the collection of everyone’s phone records or dragnets of almost everyone’s internet activity. That is a particular and extreme interpretation of the Patriot Act that has been kept secret, and which people like Ron Wyden have been trying to warn us about for a while now, but were prevented from telling us, or even fully knowing themselves (despite the supposed “congressional oversight”).

Nor did the Patriot Act authorize the hacking of public and private computer networks in Hong Kong or China.

Nobody in 2001 thought this vote was authorizing these things, but they’ve developed into these things through secret interpretations laundered through a secret parallel legal system that has served to shield these extreme interpretations from any proper constitutional challenge. Until now, thanks to Edward Snowden.

As for the claim about “hero”, I don’t care if this word is applied or not. And as for “running away from the consequences of one’s actions”, that’s quite an assumption-loaded comment. It assumes the “consequences” are legitimate. Should all asylum seekers stop “running away from the consequences of their actions” or just Snowden? Should Chen Guangchen return to China to “face the consequences of his actions”? Snowden has exposed illegal activity and is a whistleblower, and thus has no legitimate “consequences” to face, but he is being persecuted for it, and is seeking asylum to avoid being persecuted, as is his right, just as Amnesty International has insisted: amnestyusa.org

“especially when the running away takes you directly into the arms of people who have been actively hostile towards the US on a technological level and who have a worse human rights record than the US does.”

These are dubious red-herrings at best, and again would be true of most other asylum seekers, such as Chen Guangchen. Many in China probably denounce him too for “running into the arms” of a country that has been “actively hostile towards” China in various ways as well. When a person seeking asylum chooses a place to seek it, the main requirement is that said country will be willing to defy the will of the government that wants to persecute that asylum seeker. That almost invariably means a country that doesn’t have stellar relations with the country being fled. And the general human rights record of the country is not the issue either. The issue is will the country protect the asylum seeker from the persecution he’s fleeing or not. It’s also dubious to make the claim about “worse human rights record”. He’s apparently trying to go to Ecuador, a country which, as far as I know, does not have secret prisons, extrajudicial assassination lists, use torture, indefinite detention, or start illegal wars killing hundreds of thousands of people. It’s possible Ecuador has a worse record on some particular things, but they’d be rather miniscule things in comparison.

159 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:39:02pm

The relentless march of the straw men continues.

160 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:40:06pm

re: #158 jdoc1357

If you think that the US government abides by Chinese law when it comes to international data gathering …I can’t help you. Same for the Chinese government, except I’d add the exclusion of the Chinese government regarding Chinese citizens.

You are making your own assumptions regarding the legality of what he exposed and whether the charges he faces are just; if he meant what he said and had any fortitude whatsoever, he would return to let that question play out through the courts. At least our courts occasionally deliver a defeat to the government, especially in the public sphere.

Look, I may be judging this from the perspective of my own life, but that’s the only one I have direct access to. But to make a decision like that, where I’m leaving my friends and family to take the brunt of it while putting myself into the hands of people who are happy to take everything they can to increase their edge over the country I profess to care about? No. I’d hand the relevant documents over and turn myself in.

Again, if you think the US has a worse human rights record than China, I can’t help you. Sorry, we just have radically different views of the US government and how it compares to China/Russia/Ecuador/Iran.

161 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:44:49pm

re: #156 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But then he’s hopelessly naive, since the information isn’t going to to do the citizens of China any good, but they will allow the repressive Chinese government to better repress their citizens.

I’m open to the idea he’s hopelessly naive, of course.

The level of naïveté required to continue this pretense is pretty massive. Seems like some people are unable to conceive of the reality of international relations, and think the whole world has it just as comfy as they do. When what Snowden has actually done is to give the Chinese and Russians info that will help them keep the boot on their citizens’ necks.

162 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:45:14pm

re: #158 jdoc1357

It has not been kept secret. It was reported on in 2006. Failing to deal with this is weird.

163 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:45:27pm

re: #157 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

We don’t have an extradition treaty with them. That doesn’t mean it’s illegal for them to send us Snowden. Why do you think it does?

Because Snowden is a refugee outside of US territory who has explicitly requested political asylum. This entitles him to have his requests heard and decided upon through a legal process before being sent anywhere. It would be in violation of international law and conventions regarding asylum seekers. That is, he is legally entitled to the asylum process, and the US is demanding that Russia instead grab him and send him to the US with no process (extraordinary rendition).

164 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:47:08pm

re: #163 jdoc1357

Because Snowden is a refugee outside of US territory who has explicitly requested political asylum. This entitles him to have his requests heard and decided upon through a legal process before being sent anywhere.

According to who or what?

It would be in violation of international law and conventions regarding asylum seekers. That is, he is legally entitled to the asylum process, and the US is demanding that Russia instead grab him and send him to the US with no process (extraordinary rendition).

Is Russia signatory to these treaties? Has he actually applied for asylum?

And no, extraordinary rendition is done by the US in other countries, not by diplomatically requesting that that person be sent to us. That’s just regular ol’ rendition.

165 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:49:45pm

re: #163 jdoc1357

The US considers him a fugitive from justice, which no matter what you think of the charges, is exactly what he is at this point. Nobody is surprised that Russia is being intransigent and uncooperative. This is completely standard behavior, but there’s no doubt that Snowden broke numerous laws, serious ones. Your personal feelings about those laws are irrelevant to the facts.

166 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:52:10pm

re: #165 Charles Johnson

The US considers him a fugitive from justice, which no matter what you think of the charges, is exactly what he is at this point. Nobody is surprised that Russia is being intransigent and uncooperative. This is completely standard behavior, but there’s no doubt that Snowden broke numerous laws, serious ones. Your personal feelings about those laws are irrelevant to the facts.

BUT BUT BUT FEELINGS.

//

167 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:56:17pm

re: #166 klys and whatnot

BUT BUT BUT FEELINGS.

//

This attitude of “Oh, it’s so outrageous how they’re persecuting him!” is such bullshit. As Nelson Mandela lays on his death bed, it’s kind of revolting to see people trying to make a weasel like Snowden into a hero.

If he ever stands up and deals with the consequences for what he’s doing, I’ll be much more sympathetic. Right now, not to put too fine a point on it, he seems like a naive narcissistic asshole who’s in way over his head, not a whistleblower and certainly not a hero of anyone’s civil rights.

168 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:57:50pm

re: #167 Charles Johnson

This attitude of “Oh, it’s so outrageous how they’re persecuting him!” is such bullshit. As Nelson Mandela lays on his death bed, it’s kind of revolting to see people trying to make a weasel like Snowden into a hero.

If he ever stands up and deals with the consequences for what he’s doing, I’ll be much more sympathetic. Right now, not to put too fine a point on it, he seems like a naive narcissistic asshole who’s in way over his head, not a whistleblower and certainly not a hero of anyone’s civil rights.

I came long post-2009. But I have lots of updings to give this.

…I grant, it doesn’t help that I can identify with Snowden’s girlfriend, minus the poledancing channel. But seriously. Take. Fucking. Responsibility.

169 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:02:45pm

The only good result is that people are talking about privacy issues, and maybe some will become more informed, and start to notice stuff like these NSA programs that have been public knowledge for many years, instead of jumping aboard the Paranoia Express.

170 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:18:42pm

re: #164 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

According to who or what?

Is Russia signatory to these treaties? Has he actually applied for asylum?

See here for a summary of according to who or what: en.wikipedia.org

And yes Russia is a signatory to all the conventions mentioned there, and possibly other relevant ones. And yes, Snowden has applied for asylum in Ecuador and possibly also elsewhere.

And no, extraordinary rendition is done by the US in other countries, not by diplomatically requesting that that person be sent to us. That’s just regular ol’ rendition.

Not necessarily. That’s been the most common usage in the USA since the Bush years, but it has broader usage. Rendition is the transfer from one country to another after a judicial process. Extraordinary Rendition is the extrajudicial (no process) transfer from one country to another.
en.wikipedia.org

171 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:26:06pm

re: #170 jdoc1357

And yes Russia is a signatory to all the conventions mentioned there, and possibly other relevant ones. And yes, Snowden has applied for asylum in Ecuador and possibly also elsewhere.

There isn’t any protection for someone committing espionage under those treaties, though. He’s not in any protected class. He’s not being persecuted because of his beliefs, but because of his actions.

Not necessarily. That’s been the most common usage in the USA since the Bush years, but it has broader usage. Rendition is the transfer from one country to another after a judicial process. Extraordinary Rendition is the extrajudicial (no process) transfer from one country to another.

Yeah, but in international law, the US requesting Russia hand over someone who has been charged with a crime in the US is not extrajudicial and, again, I’m not sure why you think it is.

And please stop just citing articles in Wikipedia. At least cite the portion you think supports your argument.

172 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:38:37pm

re: #171 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

He’s not being persecuted because of his beliefs, but because of his actions.

Quoted for truth.

173 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:39:19pm

re: #165 Charles Johnson

The country from which an asylum seeker is fleeing persecution almost invariably considers that asylum seeker a fugitive from justice. As such, it’s meaningless and irrelevant to international law on asylum seekers.

And whether or not Snowden broke laws is not the final question. So did Ellsburg. So did Guangchen. Breaking a law that prevents the exposure of human rights violations is justified and the whistleblower who does so is entitled to protection from prosecution. See: amnestyusa.org

If Snowden were Russian, and had exposed vast Russian spying on all its own citizens and on public and private computer networks in the US and elsewhere, and fled here to avoid prosecution in Russia, the US government would be “intransigent and uncooperative” with Russian requests to extra-judicially render him back to Russia, and would then grant him asylum and call him a hero.

174 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:41:51pm

re: #173 jdoc1357

The country from which an asylum seeker is fleeing persecution almost invariably considers that asylum seeker a fugitive from justice. As such, it’s meaningless and irrelevant to international law on asylum seekers.

No it’s not. Read the very goddamn thing you’re citing:

Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that “Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.” The United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees guides national legislation concerning political asylum. Under these agreements, a refugee (or for cases where repressing base means has been applied directly or environmentally to the defoulé refugee) is a person who is outside their own country’s territory (or place of habitual residence if stateless) owing to fear of persecution on protected grounds. Protected grounds include race, nationality, religion, political opinions and membership and/or participation in any particular social group or social activities. Rendering true victims of persecution to their persecutor is a particularly odious violation of a principle called non-refoulement, part of the customary and trucial Law of Nations.

You cannot classify Snowden under this by the largest stretch of imagination in the world. The charge against him is of stealing and revealing secrets.

175 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:42:58pm

re: #172 Charles Johnson

Indeed, he’s being persecuted for his actions, but this is also related to his beliefs. Guangchen was also being persecuted for his actions.

176 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:46:31pm

re: #175 jdoc1357

Indeed, he’s being persecuted for his actions, but this is also related to his beliefs. Guangchen was also being persecuted for his actions.

Oh, so you think the charges against Guangchen of “damaging property and organising a mob to disturb traffic.” were accurate and legitimate, then?

177 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:48:51pm

re: #175 jdoc1357

Indeed, he’s being persecuted for his actions, but this is also related to his beliefs. Guangchen was also being persecuted for his actions.

Edward Snowden dishonors the memory of true heroes of human rights who saw it as an integral part of civil disobedience that you don’t run away - you put your beliefs on the line and deal with the legal consequences, and by doing so, expose the injustice even more and force real changes under the US’s democratic system.

What Snowden did is what a weasel does - even Glenn Greenwald said it. He revealed details of secret programs to China to “ingratiate” himself to them.

Not a hero. Not even close. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, and yes Daniel Ellsberg — these are heroes, because they dealt honestly and courageously with their beliefs. They didn’t run away, and leak secrets to foreign governments to ingratiate themselves.

178 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:50:55pm

To put it another way, obviously the nation-states of the modern world have not signed treaties that force them to respect the right to asylum of defectors who steal state secrets. The nation-states of the world are not, in general, nice and pleasant and would not abrogate themselves in such a way.

It was hard enough getting a treaty that allowed asylum on actual human rights grounds.


It’s weird that this has to be said.

179 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:51:19pm

“One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty.” - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

180 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:54:12pm
181 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:55:09pm

What Martin Luther King Jr. faced in that Birmingham jail was orders of magnitude more unjust and brutal than anything Edward Snowden could possibly face.

182 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 5:59:54pm

It’s a pretty astonishing document - I recommend that everyone read it, to see the deep sense of humanity and dignity and thoughtfulness that informed MLK’s opinions and actions. That was written by a man who deserves to be called a hero.

183 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:12:30pm

re: #174 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“Political opinions” is commonly interpreted to cover political actions related to your political beliefs, such as for example your belief that your government is committing human rights violations that need to be exposed in order to be stopped. Here is a similar example: theninthcircuit.com

Governments don’t usually care much what opinions citizens have unless or until they act on undesired political opinions in ways that inconvenience the government in some way. Then those actions are prosecuted or punished in some way that often sounds unrelated to the political issues that drove them. Do you think Guangchen was facing opinion charges? He was charged with “destruction of property and assembling a crowd to disrupt traffic.” washingtonpost.com

184 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:19:32pm

re: #177 Charles Johnson

What Snowden did is what a weasel does - even Glenn Greenwald said it. He revealed details of secret programs to China to “ingratiate” himself to them.

I saw that the headline of your post about this doctored the quote in the style of a James O’Keefe edited video. What Greenwald said was “the people of” Hong Kong and China, but you manufactured a false quote to help your narrative and make it appear like it was referring to the governments.

Breitbart would have been proud.

185 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:22:52pm

re: #184 jdoc1357

Not surprised that you’d pull that. Seen it before. The full, verbatim quote is in the post. All you have to do is read it.

186 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:23:50pm

Loving the Breitbart comparison thing, though. Very creative.

187 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:29:38pm

re: #185 Charles Johnson

Indeed, and an AP article might be behind the link of a distorted and misleading Drudge headline if you click on it. But that’s basically how he does all his propaganda. Cherry picking of stories, and twisting the headlines to push the right buttons.

You put your headline in “quotation marks” but you changed the wording to mean something else.

188 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:32:58pm

re: #187 jdoc1357

That’s just how evil I am. I change the headline to hide something, then leave the full quote in the post because I’m that evil.

189 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:34:51pm

Because no one anywhere has ever shortened a quote to fit in a headline. Inconceivable!

190 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:40:03pm

Meanwhile, I still recommend highly that anyone following this discussion should read Martin Luther King, Jr.’s letter from a Birmingham jail, to understand why I’m very comfortable with calling Edward Snowden a “weasel” in comparison:

Letter From a Birmingham Jail [King, Jr.]

191 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:51:04pm

re: #184 jdoc1357

… What Greenwald said was “the people of” Hong Kong and China…

Uh, so … you actually believe Snowden can reveal US secrets to “the people of” Hong Kong and China, and Beijing will stay blissfully unaware and uninterested? Dude, are you high?

192 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 6:53:37pm

The bizarre illogic is now reminding me of every political argument I’ve ever had with a libertarian, ever.

193 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 7:15:24pm

re: #183 jdoc1357

This is why I’m asking you to cite things. That didn’t back up your case at all. In that case, it was political corruption that meant that illegal actions were being ignored. No matter how much you dislike them, the PATRIOT act really did authorize this kind of shit. It is not illegal. His assertion that it’s criminal is not enough.

194 [deleted]  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 7:59:17pm
195 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 8:00:56pm

re: #193 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The link shows that political “actions” are covered by “political opinion”: “Whistle-blowing against government corruption is an expression of political opinion.” in the context of the UDHR, which directly contradicts your argument in 171, and Charles’ echo of it in 172.

And no, I maintain that the Patriot Act as written did not authorize what has been done with it since. If it is interpreted as doing so, then the PA is flagrantly unconstitutional and therefore illegal, as are the programs, which of course explains why the Bush and Obama administrations have conspired to construct and maintain a secret pseudo-legal system to shield their interpretation from constitutional challenge in court. However, this conspiracy to commit vast law breaking free of judicial oversight may have now finally collapsed thanks to that weasel Edward Snowden: motherjones.com

196 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 8:12:28pm

re: #195 jdoc1357

And no, I maintain that the Patriot Act as written did not authorize what has been done with it since. If it is interpreted as doing so, then the PA is flagrantly unconstitutional and therefore illegal, as are the programs, which of course explains why the Bush and Obama administrations have conspired to construct and maintain a secret pseudo-legal system to shield their interpretation from constitutional challenge in court. However, this conspiracy to commit vast law breaking free of judicial oversight may have now finally collapsed thanks to that weasel Edward Snowden: motherjones.com

I don’t know what to tell you, except that the US has been able to seize phone records since well before the Patriot Act.

Also, can we be clear? You’re taking the word of one person who has been pretty clearly shown to be a relative narcissist and are applying your own/his morals to his revelations versus the actual written law of the land (which you apparently haven’t really taken the time to look at).

197 jdoc1357  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 8:27:54pm

re: #196 klys and whatnot

So you think the Patriot Act authorizes these dragnet programs, and they are therefore legal?

If so, do you think the Patriot Act is Constitutional?

It seems like you can’t say yes to the first and no to the second.

198 klys and whatnot  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 8:48:13pm

re: #197 jdoc1357

So you think the Patriot Act authorizes these dragnet programs, and they are therefore legal?

If so, do you think the Patriot Act is Constitutional?

It seems like you can’t say yes to the first and no to the second.

Why not? Congress did with DOMA.

I don’t think the Patriot Act is constitutional. I do think it is currently legal. Can you appreciate the distinction?

199 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 26, 2013 9:01:51pm

re: #194 earthanimal

And with that, I invite you to fuck right off.

200 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 2:08:54am

re: #195 jdoc1357

The link shows that political “actions” are covered by “political opinion”: “Whistle-blowing against government corruption is an expression of political opinion.” in the context of the UDHR, which directly contradicts your argument in 171, and Charles’ echo of it in 172.

And no, I maintain that the Patriot Act as written did not authorize what has been done with it since. If it is interpreted as doing so, then the PA is flagrantly unconstitutional and therefore illegal, as are the programs, which of course explains why the Bush and Obama administrations have conspired to construct and maintain a secret pseudo-legal system to shield their interpretation from constitutional challenge in court. However, this conspiracy to commit vast law breaking free of judicial oversight may have now finally collapsed thanks to that weasel Edward Snowden: motherjones.com

You keep getting your facts wrong. There is judicial oversight. It is secret and that is bad and that should be revised, but there is judicial oversight.

Do you know that in an ordinary investigation it is utterly trivial for a cop to get permission to search your phone records? And why are you ignoring that this story broke a long time ago?

Do you actually think that if a court case decides that this did, indeed, overreach and it should be stopped that this means that this was a ‘vast criminal conspiracy’?

201 conspiracynut  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 9:23:20am

re: #177 Charles Johnson

Edward Snowden dishonors the memory of true heroes of human rights who saw it as an integral part of civil disobedience that you don’t run away - you put your beliefs on the line and deal with the legal consequences, and by doing so, expose the injustice even more and force real changes under the US’s democratic system.

What Snowden did is what a weasel does - even Glenn Greenwald said it. He revealed details of secret programs to China to “ingratiate” himself to them.

Not a hero. Not even close. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, and yes Daniel Ellsberg — these are heroes, because they dealt honestly and courageously with their beliefs. They didn’t run away, and leak secrets to foreign governments to ingratiate themselves.

Daniel Ellsberg says Snowden is a bigger hero than him. Source:

guardian.co.uk

202 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 10:35:29am

Here we go again.

203 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 10:42:42am

re: #201 conspiracynut

How about dealing with the actual points in my comment, instead of making a dumb appeal to authority?

204 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 10:44:41am

Oh well. It was a dump and run job. Dead thread hero on a last chance power dive.

205 conspiracynut  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 12:45:15pm

re: #203 Charles Johnson

How about dealing with the actual points in my comment, instead of making a dumb appeal to authority?

I was pointing out that one of the men you cited as heroes called Snowden a hero. The other two are dead or close to dying.

It seemed relevant.

206 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 27, 2013 9:25:40pm

What. The. Fuck.


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