Details About France’s Domestic Surveillance Programs Revealed

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In what has to be one of the least surprising revelations ever, it turns out that France has a vast, incredibly intrusive domestic surveillance program: French Agency Spies on Phone Calls, Email, Web Use, Paper Says.

(Reuters) - France’s external intelligence agency spies on the French public’s phone calls, emails and social media activity in France and abroad, the daily Le Monde said on Thursday.

It said the DGSE intercepted signals from computers and telephones in France, and between France and other countries, although not the content of phone calls, to create a map of “who is talking to whom”. It said the activity was illegal.

“All of our communications are spied on,” wrote Le Monde, which based its report on unnamed intelligence sources as well as remarks made publicly by intelligence officials.

“Emails, text messages, telephone records, access to Facebook and Twitter are then stored for years,” it said.

The technology for this kind of large-scale data collection is not a big secret. The implementation of the hardware and software isn’t exactly simple, but any developed nation has the resources to do it — which means they’re all doing it.

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189 comments
1 Mattand  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:50:49am

Greenwald and Snowden acolytes screaming about how france is different in 3, 2, 1…

2 HAL2010  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:51:09am

Related:


What. A. Fricking. Surprise.

That is all.

3 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:51:09am

My surprise, let me show you.

4 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:51:19am

I said at the time of the big “revelations” that privacy in the modern era is an illusion and I still mean it. If you honestly believe you can use any form of modern technology, whether it be surfing the web on a PC, reading an eBook on a Kindle, or calling a friend on a cellphone and nobody is keeping tabs in some way, then you’re deluding yourself. You are being watched, even if it’s not the government doing the watching.

5 erik_t  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:51:19am

…Pas merde.

6 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:58:21am

In a weird way this reminds me of the Tour de France doping scandals. The same motivation is at work. If you know everyone else you’re competing with is doing something surreptitiously that gives them an advantage, you’re forced to do it too, or lose.

7 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:58:28am

Mais non!

8 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 11:59:00am
9 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:00:18pm

Busted.

Ecuador: Spy microphone recorded secret conversations inside London embassy

Patino said authorities have “founded suspicions” that indicate a private British surveillance company was involved, but he did not provide additional details. The company did not immediately respond to a request from CNN to comment.

Modern ELINT. So simple even a caveman can do it.

10 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:02:39pm

re: #8 jaunte

Heh. The site that you linked to wants to store your location information in it’s data base.

11 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:04:45pm

France has always been the most 3rd world of first world countries in terms of corruption. The government, the leaders don’t follow rules.

It is no surprise that there is limitless invasion of privacy going on behind the scenes. Besides surveillance rather than confrontation or social engineering is the European model for dealing with Islamism. Britain may be the most surveilled country on the planet.

12 andres  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:05:12pm

Anyone seen my clutching pearls? They’re not beside my fainting couch were I usually leave them. :-P

13 BroncD  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:05:43pm

“…but any developed nation has the resources to do it — which means they’re all doing it.”

NO! Only we do it!!!

14 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:05:53pm
15 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:08:15pm

Let’s be honest, as long as humans have been smart enough to keep secrets, we’ve spied on each other. Hell, we pay people to spy on others for us, else we wouldn’t have private investigators and companies offering all forms of spying equipment to the average citizen.

Corporations spy on their customers, governments spy on their citizens, countries spy on other countries, and the wheels go round and round. Information is power and the more information you have, the more power you have over others.

17 Randall Gross  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:12:09pm

The difference between France and the US is that France spies on everything domestic, where the NSA attempts to filter out domestic users. I’m not saying they are 100 percent successful in that, but at least we are not France, Russia, China, Iran, and the list goes on and on and on.

18 HAL2010  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:15:04pm
19 HAL2010  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:15:52pm
20 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:16:11pm

re: #18 HAL2010

I want to down-ding the tweet so bad. Not you, just the tweet.

21 HAL2010  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:17:38pm
22 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:18:01pm

re: #8 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Gee, why is Apple so profitable?

23 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:19:45pm

re: #11 stabby

France has always been the most 3rd world of first world countries in terms of corruption. The government, the leaders don’t follow rules.

Ever been there? I couldn’t disagree with you more strongly.

24 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:21:13pm

re: #23 austin_blue

erm, Italy?

25 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:22:06pm

re: #14 Velvet Elvis

Sexy Russian spy Anna Chapman to NSA leaker: Marry me?!

Yes, but can she pole dance?

26 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:24:09pm

re: #23 austin_blue

There are lots of examples from the way the press works to presidents to wars to companies.

I remember a decade ago when a french company was in court I believe they claimed that NOT bribing French officials would be against their fiduciary duty to their stock holders. Or maybe they were being sued for not bribing, I forget.

27 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:26:09pm

New Hatchling Alert.

Welcome Pandera.

28 austin_blue  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:28:14pm

re: #24 Velvet Elvis

erm, Italy?

Try Japan. The inhabitants have always given me the creeps.

29 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:28:18pm

Snowden and Assange Targeted by Mysterious Hacker “The Jester”

“…Yesterday the Jester tweeted photos of what he believed to be fire alarms on the exterior of the Ecuadorean Embassy, asking locals to crowd-source the name and logo of the alarms. The Jester also tweeted the following map, isolating what he says are the wifi networks that Assange may be using within the embassy.”

30 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:30:26pm

Great diary by bratwurst.

31 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:34:51pm
32 pandera  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:37:36pm

Yawn. So all the first world countries are building a surveillance state. No more need to set up listening posts and tape recorders like the Stasi. We are all so savvy that of course we know and tacitly wink - how could you be so naive as to think that governments should not collect records of all telephone and internet communication? What could possibly go wrong? Snowden is nothing like Ellsberg don’t you know. Snowden is weird and so is Manning. Thank the good lord there are still people with courage like Snowden and Manning. You guys are killing me.

33 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:38:37pm

oh, look…a hachling…

34 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:39:20pm

Here we go again.

35 blueraven  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:39:37pm

re: #32 pandera

You guys are killing me.

You really should take your leave right away then.

36 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:40:37pm

Just in time for the holiday BBQ…

37 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:41:06pm

re: #32 pandera

Ok, so we know now. Next steps?

38 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:41:11pm

re: #33 Backwoods_Sleuth

oh, look…a hachling…

Don’t think it’s going to be here very long.

39 Kragar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:41:50pm

re: #32 pandera

Oh look, another moron who has no real grasp of the situation. Yawn.

40 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:42:11pm

Yes, Snowden was so courageous that he hauled ass out of the country and is now giving away US secrets to foreign powers in the hopes that they’ll not return him to us once they’ve finished milking everything they can from him.

41 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:42:13pm

re: #38 Bubblehead II

Don’t think it’s going to be here very long.

probably not, but maybe Charles will let us play with it while waiting for the charcoal to be ready…

42 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:42:17pm

re: #32 pandera

Snowden is nothing like Ellsberg don’t you know.

Snowden is Jesus+MLK+Gunga Din+Ned Stark in a Che Guevara t-shirt.

43 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:43:16pm

Guess who isn’t going to a barbecue today? Snowden!

44 piratedan  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:43:52pm

re: #32 pandera

and yet here you are instead of some star chamber for thinking bad thoughts against the total surveillance state, funny that….

45 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:45:00pm

Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency

“…What Bamford discovers is at times surprising, often quite troubling but always fascinating. In his conclusion, he is at once awed and deeply disturbed by what NSA can now do: ever more sophisticated surveillance techniques can mean ever greater assaults on the basic right of individual privacy. In a computer system that can store five trillion pages of text, anyone and everyone can be monitored.”

Published 2001.

46 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:47:00pm

Let’s also remember that Snowden spent years working for the NSA, knowing that these programs either existed or were being put in place. He knew this was going on, but his excuse is that he hoped Obama would change things. It’s like a mafia hitman turning state’s evidence on his boss on the promise that he’ll get immunity from his own crimes.

47 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:47:06pm
48 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:49:17pm
49 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:49:34pm

For Alouette

50 erik_t  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:51:07pm

re: #40 Targetpractice

Yes, Snowden was so courageous that he hauled ass out of the country and is now giving away US secrets to foreign powers in the hopes that they’ll not return him to us once they’ve finished milking everything they can from him.

I think the hatchling confused “courageous” with “idiotic and naive”. Common mistake.

51 AntonSirius  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:51:50pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

I said at the time of the big “revelations” that privacy in the modern era is an illusion and I still mean it. If you honestly believe you can use any form of modern technology, whether it be surfing the web on a PC, reading an eBook on a Kindle, or calling a friend on a cellphone and nobody is keeping tabs in some way, then you’re deluding yourself. You are being watched, even if it’s not the government doing the watching.

No offense, target, since I don’t think you intended it this way, but this is exactly the kind of bullshit that drives me up the wall with the Glennbots.

You are not being watched.

No one is actively spying on you. Is the metadata about your communication recorded and stored somewhere? Sure. is the actual content of the communication stored? No. Is there an NSA agent (or Google rep, for that matter) sitting at a desk somewhere watching you play Candy Crush Saga and email lolcats to your aunt? Fuck no.

52 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:53:10pm

re: #51 AntonSirius

No offense, target, since I don’t think you intended it this way, but this is exactly the kind of bullshit that drives me up the wall with the Glennbots.

You are not being watched.

No one is actively spying on you. Is the metadata about your communication recorded and stored somewhere? Sure. is the actual content of the communication stored? No. Is there an NSA agent (or Google rep, for that matter) sitting at a desk somewhere watching you play Candy Crush Saga and email lolcats to your aunt? Fuck no.

No offense taken, I admit I’m feeling a bit cynical today. Though that has more to do with matters detached from the whole Snowden business.

53 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:56:57pm
54 Kragar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:57:49pm

re: #51 AntonSirius

No offense, target, since I don’t think you intended it this way, but this is exactly the kind of bullshit that drives me up the wall with the Glennbots.

You are not being watched.

No one is actively spying on you. Is the metadata about your communication recorded and stored somewhere? Sure. is the actual content of the communication stored? No. Is there an NSA agent (or Google rep, for that matter) sitting at a desk somewhere watching you play Candy Crush Saga and email lolcats to your aunt? Fuck no.

The grand conspiracy no one is telling you about:

You’re not important enough for the government or anyone else to have them set up a conspiracy against you.

55 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:57:58pm

re: #30 darthstar

Great diary by bratwurst.

[Embedded content]

Thanks for the shout out! The page now includes Mitt’s ridiculous Univision tan:

Image: romney_on_univision.jpg

56 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:58:24pm

How is it today?

57 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:59:15pm

There actually are entities that watch and record almost everything you do, that constantly analyze all your communications and Internet usage, and allow all kinds of other entities to profit from what they discover: corporations.

58 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:59:18pm

re: #51 AntonSirius

No offense, target, since I don’t think you intended it this way, but this is exactly the kind of bullshit that drives me up the wall with the Glennbots.

You are not being watched.

No one is actively spying on you. Is the metadata about your communication recorded and stored somewhere? Sure. is the actual content of the communication stored? No. Is there an NSA agent (or Google rep, for that matter) sitting at a desk somewhere watching you play Candy Crush Saga and email lolcats to your aunt? Fuck no.

Some people like being watched.

they want to be watched.

I guess they think it will make them relevant.

59 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 12:59:57pm

re: #56 FemNaziBitch

Weather in NE Philly. wunderground.com

60 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:00:06pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

There actually are entities that watch and record almost everything you do, that constantly analyze all your communications and Internet usage, and allow all kinds of other entities to profit from what they discover: corporations.

Yes, it allows them to give me the internet ads at the top of the page—that are exactly what I want to buy —or have recently been searching.

61 erik_t  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:00:53pm

I am going to go find some meat stuffed into a tube made of a different kind of meat, then set it on a pile of burning things, consume it and wash it down with fermented barley, because America.

Good day to you all.

62 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:00:59pm

re: #32 pandera

Summary of Snowden:
1) most of what got in the papers was already known and in books by authors who don’t have his drama queen status, good looks or taste in poll dancers
2) Glen Greenwald is either incapable of understanding the powerpoint slides that he’s trying to build a career on, or he thinks that misinterpreting them is good for said career (or for some political cause or other)
3) American surveillance isn’t illegal, but that doesn’t mean it’s not alarming
4) But the people who are alarmed mostly don’t want to acknowledge that terrorism is a grave threat, and thus that there’s a damn good reason that we don’t have the privacy we used to.

And it’s from point 4 that one has to start a legitimate debate about what’s the right balance in a situation where we are threatened by terrorism. Because it’s really NOT morally acceptable to pretend that the threat is no greater and of the same character as that from mere crime.

Also, what other countries do … well its interesting but when no one has been mature and deep enough to answer the intricate questions about how much surveillance our societies need, under what circumstances, how ELSE should we prevent terror, how much should preventing terror compromise our other needs etc. When we can’t answer the basic questions, won’t debate them, then going all self-righteous on the details is a distraction, is ego aggrandizement, there’s no there there.

63 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:02:07pm

re: #60 FemNaziBitch

And they keep trying to show it to you long after your momentary interest has vanished. So effective for an advertiser if their goal is to associate their brand with consumer annoyance.

64 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:02:59pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

There actually are entities that watch and record almost everything you do, that constantly analyze all your communications and Internet usage, and allow all kinds of other entities to profit from what they discover: corporations.

Yep.

Your client going mobile at the mall
Reach young smartphone owners with a range of new options

One venue where this practice is becoming more common is shopping malls, always a good place to get in front of younger audiences with money to spend.

In addition to engaging people in new and different ways, mobile mall ads also offer measurability beyond what’s available with traditional static advertising.

And that is just one of many links I found.

65 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:03:19pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

Snowden worked for Booze for 3 months.

66 Kragar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:03:46pm

re: #63 jaunte

And they keep trying to show it to you long after your momentary interest has vanished. So effective for an advertiser if their goal is to associate their brand with consumer annoyance.

That explains why I keep getting offered Asian women.

67 AntonSirius  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:04:09pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

There actually are entities that watch and record almost everything you do, that constantly analyze all your communications and Internet usage, and allow all kinds of other entities to profit from what they discover: corporations.

Again, though, no person is actively “watching” you. Some bot is doing it all automatically based on an algorithm.

If someone insists on being paranoid, it would be nice if they managed to be paranoid about the right thing.

68 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:04:18pm

re: #57 Charles Johnson

There actually are entities that watch and record almost everything you do, that constantly analyze all your communications and Internet usage, and allow all kinds of other entities to profit from what they discover: corporations.

Yep. And what do we do if we don’t agree with it? Stop using their services? Take them to court? Push our bought-and-paid-for lawmakers to pass laws saying they can’t spy on us?

69 erik_t  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:04:41pm

re: #61 erik_t

I am going to go find some meat stuffed into a tube made of a different kind of meat, then set it on a pile of burning things, consume it and wash it down with fermented barley, because America.

Good day to you all.

Oh and then I’m going to blow small shit up in a most festive manner, probably while asking a fellow celebrant “hey’c’n you hold my beer for a second”.

BECAUSE AMERICA.

70 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:04:47pm

re: #63 jaunte

I have all ads blocked.

Get Firefox, install adblockplus
install no-script (a whitelist script stopper)

Maintaining the whitelist does get in the way and it does take time, but NO ADS.

71 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:04:56pm

re: #65 stabby

Snowden worked for Booze for 3 months.

He says he’s been working for the NSA for years before that, starting out as a security guard. So far, whoever was employing him in that time period has not raised their hand.

72 Kragar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:04:57pm

re: #65 stabby

Snowden worked for Booze for 3 months.

Yeah, his previous work for the NSA was a security guard, so he was probably checking ID badges at a door or walking around making sure doors were locked.

73 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:05:37pm
74 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:06:43pm

re: #70 stabby

I have all ads blocked.

Get Firefox, install adblockplus
install no-script (a whitelist script stopper)

Maintaining the whitelist does get in the way and it does take time, but NO ADS.

And if everyone did that there would be no web. Ads are how the free web pays for itself. If you blocks ads on sites you enjoy, you are taking money out of the pocket of the person who runs the site.

75 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:07:02pm

Lotta grandstanding going on…

76 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:07:15pm

Pandera’s gone?
Oh well I gotta go for now too.

77 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:07:39pm

re: #68 Targetpractice

Yep. And what do we do if we don’t agree with it? Stop using their services? Take them to court? Push our bought-and-paid-for lawmakers to pass laws saying they can’t spy on us?

If you want to live in a world with out magnetic stripes —meaning your ATM card, credit card, frequent buyer retail cards, UPS, FED EX, …

Anywhere there is a a barcode somehow associated with you, you are tracked.

Like I said the other day, I figured my privacy was FUBAR way back when I got my first ATM card.

78 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:08:12pm

re: #74 Velvet Elvis

Everyone probably will, your objections not withstanding.

79 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:08:17pm

re: #75 Charles Johnson

Lotta grandstanding going on…

[Embedded content]

A faulty fuel gauge would be grounds for war?

80 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:09:34pm

re: #74 Velvet Elvis

A godaddy hosting account costs $3 a month, a .com site maybe $10 a year.

The web is so cheap it doesn’t need advertising to thrive.

81 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:10:06pm

re: #77 FemNaziBitch

If you want to live in a world with out magnetic stripes —meaning your ATM card, credit card, frequent buyer retail cards, UPS, FED EX, …

Anywhere there is a a barcode somehow associated with you, you are tracked.

Like I said the other day, I figured my privacy was FUBAR way back when I got my first ATM card.

Don’t forget RFID embedded cards as well.

82 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:10:15pm

Bolivia declares airspace closed to France and Portugal?

83 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:10:36pm

A godaddy virtual server with 1 gig of ram costs $30 a month.

84 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:10:58pm

re: #80 stabby

A godaddy hosting account costs $3 a month, a .com site maybe $10 a year.

The web is so cheap it doesn’t need advertising to thrive.

I am sure Charles appreciates your attitude!

85 stabby  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:11:10pm

Someone told me there are places where you can rent a physical server for that.

86 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:11:13pm

re: #81 Bubblehead II

Don’t forget RFID embedded cards as well.

and the chip they put in my dog!

:0

87 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:11:29pm

re: #67 AntonSirius

Again, though, no person is actively “watching” you. Some bot is doing it all automatically based on an algorithm.

That’s true, most of the time - but it’s also a lot easier for a person to access that corporation’s data if they want to.

88 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:12:28pm

re: #80 stabby

What an asshole. If you’re trying to lose your account you’re going about it the right way.

89 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:13:00pm

I feel pretty safe —lost in the crowd of all that data.

Really.

90 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:14:12pm

For the record, if anyone cares—I’ve been watching youtube videos about bookbinding. Searching sites for different products and techniques. I have no desire to hide my activities.

I know books can be considered subversive …

91 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:14:58pm

In fact, here’s a “being an asshole” timeout. I just can’t even.

92 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:15:19pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

In fact, here’s a “being an asshole” timeout. I just can’t even.

THANK YOUTHANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

93 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:15:23pm

re: #86 FemNaziBitch

and the chip they put in my dog!

:0

That only helps you get your dog back from the pound/shelter if it is picked up. You need one of these if you really want to keep track of your pet (or spouse/girl/boyfriend).

94 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:16:55pm

re: #93 Bubblehead II

That only helps you get your dog back from the pound/shelter if it is picked up. You need one of these if you really want to keep track of your pet (or spouse/girl/boyfriend).

pawtrax!

95 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:17:43pm

re: #76 stabby

Oh well I gotta go for now too.

You didn’t know how right you were!

96 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:18:31pm

re: #32 pandera

You guys are killing me.

If we wanted to kill you, you would already be dead.

97 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:19:21pm

I love you Baba!

:0

98 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:20:03pm

I let “stabby” have his account back, even though he was previously banned for exactly this kind of narcissistic thread-hijacking and abusive behavior.

Seriously considering making this permanent.

99 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:21:29pm

re: #98 Charles Johnson

I let “stabby” have his account back, even though he was previously banned for exactly this kind of narcissistic thread-hijacking and abusive behavior.

Seriously considering making this permanent.

He does contribute.

Is being irritant an internet crime?

100 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:23:56pm

re: #99 FemNaziBitch

He does contribute.

Is being irritant an internet crime?

I beg to differ. Nobody here gets that kind of karma score without consistently being and bigot and/or an overall asshole. In this case, it is very much both.

101 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:26:08pm

re: #98 Charles Johnson

Whining about ads when subscription is so readily available is just stupid. Somebody has to pay the bill. No free luinch or ‘net.

102 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:26:43pm

re: #100 bratwurst

I think Buck holds the record for negative karma.

103 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:27:27pm

Haters are taking it to the 1st Amendment level.

104 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:27:33pm

re: #99 FemNaziBitch

He does contribute.

Is being irritant an internet crime?

If by contributing, you mean creating a hostile environment, then yeah, he contributes.

105 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:28:34pm

re: #104 Bubblehead II

If by contributing, you mean creating a hostile environment, then yeah, he contributes.

Yeah, I agree the bad outweighs the good.

106 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:28:59pm

re: #104 Bubblehead II

If by contributing, you mean creating a hostile environment, then yeah, he contributes.

That’s exactly what has me on my last nerve.

107 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:29:13pm

re: #32 pandera

Ywn. S ll th frst wrld cntrs r bldng srvllnc stt. N mr nd t st p lstnng psts nd tp rcrdrs lk th Sts. W r ll s svv tht f crs w knw nd tctly wnk - hw cld y b s nv s t thnk tht gvrnmnts shld nt cllct rcrds f ll tlphn nd ntrnt cmmnctn? Wht cld pssbl g wrng? Snwdn s nothing lk Ellsberg dn’t y knw. Snwdn s wrd nd s s Mnnng. Thnk th gd lrd thr r stll ppl wth crag lk Snwdn nd Mnnng. Y gys r kllng m.

The emoprog says what?

108 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:31:13pm

re: #105 FemNaziBitch

Yeah, I agree the bad outweighs the good.

He’s become an automatic scroll over and an almost automatic downding for me.

109 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:32:16pm

The biggest asshole to ever post here (not including the stalkers) was Destro.

110 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:32:19pm

Youtube Video

EXCELLENT!

111 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:32:35pm

re: #100 bratwurst

I beg to differ. Nobody here gets that kind of karma score without consistently being and bigot and/or an overall asshole. In this case, it is very much both.

I beg to differ. Shropshire Slasher, Avanti, and Killgore have all had karma that negative. SpaceJesus was at -1000 at one time.

112 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:32:52pm
113 jaunte  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:33:13pm

Change privacy policy, UK data protection watchdog tells Google

“…In March 2012, Google reduced 70 separate privacy policies into one simplified document, a decision that an ICO spokesperson told Wired.co.uk made it “no longer possible to find out what’s going on with your information across Google’s products and services”.

The change allowed Google to combine users’ personal data from across its products, breaking down silos of data it had built up, particularly on YouTube and Google search. A single Google identity for each of its users, with information about your likes and dislikes sticking across its platforms, was the aim of the policy change.”

114 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:33:37pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I beg to differ. Shropshire Slasher, Avanti, and Killgore have all had karma that negative. SpaceJesus was at -1000 at one time.

I’m 99% certain bratwurst was talking about now, not then.

115 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:34:09pm

re: #109 Vicious Babushka

The biggest asshole to ever post here (not including the stalkers) was Destro.

Amen to that. Hate of both America and Israel coupled with an unbending defense of Serbia and Vladimir Putin, all rolled up into one big crappy package.

116 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:35:23pm

re: #112 darthstar

117 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:36:11pm

re: #114 Interesting Times

I’m 99% certain bratwurst was talking about now, not then.

Yes, I am talking about over the last 4 years that I have been around. I would have thought DF could have picked up on that.

119 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:37:24pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

How is mocking a raging homophobe like Rick Santorum bigoted? I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

120 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:38:27pm

re: #118 FemNaziBitch

[Embedded content]

Actually this is significant.

121 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:38:51pm

re: #117 bratwurst

Yes, I am talking about over the last 4 years that I have been around. I would have thought DF would have picked up on that.

The blog’s been wrong before about people, it could be wrong again. I’m just saying.

122 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:40:09pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

The blog’s been wrong before about people, it could be wrong again. I’m just saying.

You have said this about SEVERAL people here shortly before they were banned. Many of these same people subsequently turned up on the stalker blog to say horrible things about you personally under your actual name. I’m just saying.

123 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:40:14pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

The blog’s been wrong before about people, it could be wrong again. I’m just saying.

Whatever, Mary.

124 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:41:02pm

Grandma is coming over (my mom).

I gotta clean

Have a great Holiday all!

125 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:41:14pm

re: #119 darthstar

How is mocking a raging homophobe like Rick Santorum bigoted? I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

Insinuating that someone is gay in defiance of all solid evidence sounds bigoted to me. Or at least evidence of extreme indifference to the facts.

126 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:41:59pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

The blog’s been wrong before about people, it could be wrong again. I’m just saying.

Please don’t tell me you’re defending Stabby. As Charles has pointed out, he blocked his account once before for this very same behavior.

128 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:44:04pm

Edward Snowden ‘was helped to steal state secrets’, says Wall Street Journal. Guardian’s Greenwald explodes. It’s all kicking off now

blogs.telegraph.co.uk

129 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:44:42pm

re: #122 bratwurst

You have said this about SEVERAL people here shortly before they were banned. Many of these same people subsequently turned up on the stalker blog to say horrible things about you personally under your actual name. I’m just saying.

that’s less about their politics and more about me personally. Back in the day, I was Avanti’s greatest defender and I stuck up for Killgore as well. To be fair, though, I also defended a stuck-on-stupid contrarian named ‘Cognito’ who Charles subsequently and deservedly threw out on his ear.

130 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:46:30pm

re: #127 Backwoods_Sleuth

heh…

Edward Snowden ‘was helped to steal state secrets’, says Wall Street Journal. Guardian’s Greenwald explodes. It’s all kicking off now

Heh…and Greenwald responds with personal attacks on the writer. What a petty little douche nozzle.

131 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:47:31pm

re: #130 darthstar

Heh…and Greenwald responds with personal attacks on the writer. What a petty little douche nozzle.

Thank goodness you didn;t stoop to the same!!!

/

132 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:48:06pm

re: #130 darthstar

Heh…and Greenwald responds with personal attacks on the writer. What a petty little douche nozzle.

Indeed! I am so happy to have a copious supply of adult beverages today!

133 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:48:09pm

re: #80 stabby

A godaddy hosting account costs $3 a month, a .com site maybe $10 a year.

The web is so cheap it doesn’t need advertising to thrive.

If you get even moderate traffic you’ll be kicked off a cheap hosting account.

I run a mid-sized mental health support site and pay $1400 a year in hosting. It’s also what I do for a living so I have to pay rent and stuff off the advertising income.

134 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:51:15pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

Thank goodness you didn;t stoop to the same!!!

/

I’ve never wavered from my dislike of the weaselly little fucker. And as I’m not a “journalist” I don’t have to hold myself to the same standards. But thank you for your concern.

135 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:51:33pm

re: #132 Backwoods_Sleuth

Indeed! I am so happy to have a copious supply of adult beverages today!

:( ,,, non for me.. off to work in several hours BUT I will have the pleasure of sharing the road with many who have !!!

136 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:51:45pm

re: #132 Backwoods_Sleuth

Indeed! I am so happy to have a copious supply of adult beverages today!

I didn’t realize Greenwald was a Wikileaks funder.

137 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:52:31pm

re: #134 darthstar

I’ve never wavered from my dislike of the weaselly little fucker. And as I’m not a “journalist” I don’t have to hold myself to the same standards. But thank you for your concern.

guess you missed the “/” at the end

Ah well

138 twisty  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:52:51pm

re: #136 darthstar

I didn’t realize Greenwald was a Wikileaks funder.

News to me too. Lots of things are adding up now.

139 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:53:30pm

CMIIW but weren’t these people executed because they were GAY?
(Can’t respond to Prudence b/c BLOCKED LIBRUL!!11!!)

140 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:53:32pm

re: #130 darthstar

Heh…and Greenwald responds with personal attacks on the writer. What a petty little douche nozzle.

How big is Glenn Greenwald’s ego?:

A. Bigger than a breadbox.

B. Bigger that a car-based SUV.

C. Bigger than a Greyhound bus.

D. Biggest than an Amtrak train.

E. Rand Paul.

141 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:53:55pm

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

that’s less about their politics and more about me personally. Back in the day, I was Avanti’s greatest defender and I stuck up for Killgore as well. To be fair, though, I also defended a stuck-on-stupid contrarian named ‘Cognito’ who Charles subsequently and deservedly threw out on his ear.

You enormous sense of fair play is undoubtedly an outstanding personality trait that people in your real life admire. Online, it doesn’t serve you nearly as well.

142 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:54:53pm

re: #136 darthstar

I didn’t realize Greenwald was a Wikileaks funder.

That “Freedom of the Press Foundation”…

143 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:55:25pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

guess you missed the “/” at the end

Ah well

144 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:55:49pm

I know…it’s the Onion…makes it even better, IMO.

145 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:56:14pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

CMIIW but weren’t these people executed because they were GAY?
(Can’t respond to Prudence b/c BLOCKED LIBRUL!!11!!)

[Embedded content]

Some were, but at least one was a Christian who was “convicted of spying for the CIA” by a kangaroo court. His real offense had been speaking out again Islamist mob violence.

But some of those shown dead were indeed murdered for being gay.

146 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:56:15pm

re: #143 darthstar

[Embedded content]

means 21% aren’t!

147 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:57:25pm

re: #141 bratwurst

You enormous sense of fair play is undoubtedly an outstanding personality trait that people in your real life admire. Online, it doesn’t serve you nearly as well.

It’s part of how I deal with the way assholes used to treat me when I was young.

148 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:57:33pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

CMIIW but weren’t these people executed because they were GAY?
(Can’t respond to Prudence b/c BLOCKED LIBRUL!!11!!)

[Embedded content]

You can still reply…just copy/paste the tweet and put a punctuation mark in front of her handle so it is global. She may have blocked you, but she still watches your every tweet.

149 Fear the Blah People  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:58:59pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I beg to differ. Shropshire Slasher, Avanti, and Killgore have all had karma that negative. SpaceJesus was at -1000 at one time.

I miss Avanti.

150 Fear the Blah People  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:59:22pm

re: #149 Stanghazi

I miss Avanti.

Is that the guy with the car?

151 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 1:59:42pm

re: #149 Stanghazi

I miss Avanti.

Whatever happened to him?

152 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:01:05pm

re: #150 Stanghazi

Is that the guy with the car?

Yeah, he collected/restored desottos or something like that. Was also into going to Casinos. Ex-Navy as well.

153 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:02:04pm

“On May 20, three months into his job, Mr. Snowden falsely claimed to his employer that he needed treatment for epilepsy. The purpose of the cover story was to conceal his trip to Hong Kong, where the operation to steal U.S. secrets would be brought to fruition.

“Mr. Greenwald and Ms. Poitras also flew to Hong Kong. They were later joined by Sarah Harrison, a WikiLeaks representative who works closely with Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder. Mr. Snowden reportedly brought the misappropriated data to Hong Kong on four laptops and a thumb drive. He gave some of the communications intelligence to Mr. Greenwald, who had arranged to publish it in the Guardian, and Mr. Snowden arranged to have Ms. Poitras make a video of him issuing a statement that would be released on the Guardian’s website. Albert Ho, a Hong Kong lawyer, was retained to deal with Hong Kong authorities.


“This orchestration did not occur in a vacuum. Airfares, hotel bills and other expenses over this period had to be paid. A safe house had to be secured in Hong Kong. Lawyers had to be retained, and safe passage to Moscow—a trip on which Mr. Snowden was accompanied by WikiLeaks’ Sarah Harrison—had to be organized.

“The world now knows that the misappropriation of U.S. communications intelligence began appearing in the Guardian and other publications on June 5, and Mr. Snowden left Hong Kong for the Moscow airport on June 21. A question that remains to be answered: Who, if anyone, aided and abetted this well-planned theft of U.S. secrets?”

online.wsj.com

154 Fear the Blah People  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:03:45pm

re: #152 Bubblehead II

Yeah, he collected/resored desottos or something like that. Was also into going to Casinos. Ex-Navy as well.

Yeah that’s him. He was kinda up there if I recall. Hope he’s cool.

155 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:09:32pm

re: #152 Bubblehead II

Yeah, he collected/resored desottos or something like that. Was also into going to Casinos. Ex-Navy as well.

Studebakers ,, hence, AVANTI (a model made by them

156 freetoken  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:10:09pm

Yesterday I mentioned that the delay in part of the ACA implementation was being used to build momentum for the idea that even the President now believes “Obamacare” is a failure, and I linked to an AP headline which was fertile for imagination exercises.

Today we see headlines moving more aggressively in that direction:

With latest delay, questions build about Obama health-care law rollout

Note that this isn’t just a delay, but the “latest delay”. Questions are building.

This will build all through the 2014 election.

157 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:10:11pm

Studebakers.

158 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:12:18pm

re: #155 sattv4u2

Studebakers ,, hence, AVANTI (a model made by them

re: #157 prairiefire

Studebakers.

Thanks. Couldn’t remember for sure what type of car he collected/restored.

159 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:16:27pm

re: #157 prairiefire

Yes, Avanti was a Studebaker. I remember those days well. In 1950 or 51, my dad purchased a Rambler. It looked like this one: auto.howstuffworks.com

‘63 Studebaker Avanti hemmings.com

160 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:17:28pm

re: #158 Bubblehead II

Thanks. Couldn’t remember for sure what type of car he collected/restored.

ugly ass things (imho) Guy near me has half a dozen in various stages of restoral at his house

161 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:19:30pm

re: #148 darthstar

You can still reply…just copy/paste the tweet and put a punctuation mark in front of her handle so it is global. She may have blocked you, but she still watches your every tweet.

First I have to verify that the specific photo is actually of gay victims.

162 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:20:13pm

re: #161 Vicious Babushka

First I have to verify that the specific photo is actually of gay victims.

I didn’t look at it closely, but I thought it was the four mercs from Iraq.

163 Fear the Blah People  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:25:55pm

Arrrghh! Ricks on the horse in Atlanta. u g h

(Walking Dead marathon)

164 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:26:34pm

re: #160 sattv4u2

Those cars were heavy with steel, too, and got little gas mileage (well, at 25 cents a gal, it seems cheap, but compared to salaries, not so much).

My son had a 64 Ford Galaxie coupe with that big assed trunk that had been outfitted with a Holman Moody engine and Detroit Locker rear end, old school racing equipment, street legal, but he sold it recently. Loud as hell, but lots of horsepower and very little mileage per gal. I’ve always, except for my very first car, a 1968 Ford Falcon, driven a small 5 spd; those classic cars are really a guy thing.

165 Kragar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:27:14pm

MST3k 205 - Rocket Attack USA

Youtube Video

166 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:27:14pm

re: #162 darthstar

I didn’t look at it closely, but I thought it was the four mercs from Iraq.

Looked again…wish I hadn’t. People who get off on posting pics like that suck.

167 bubba zanetti  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:29:03pm

re: #161 Vicious Babushka

AFP Photo captioned “Four Iranian criminals are hanged in public in the southern city of Shiraz, 950 kms (590 miles) south of Tehran, 05 September 2007. Iran executed today 21 criminals in a single day, the latest of a growing number of executions in a crackdown which officials say is aimed at improving security in society. AFP PHOTO/STR (Photo credit should read -/AFP/Getty Images)”

gettyimages.com

168 bubba zanetti  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:31:32pm

re: #161 Vicious Babushka

Actual story seems to be:

hypocritesnews.org

“In a separate execution, Iranian media say four criminals were hanged in front of a large crowd in the southern city of Shiraz. The four had been convicted of possessing weapons, drug smuggling and attacking police.”

169 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:33:54pm

re: #164 Justanotherhuman

Yeah,,, me, I’m happy as a clam with my 57 Chevy Bel Air . Not 100% restored yet, but all in all in good shape and drivable, just not “showable” That will come in 3-4 years when I retire

170 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:37:30pm

re: #169 sattv4u2

Yeah,,, me, I’m happy as a clam with my 57 Chevy Bel Air . Not 100% restored yet, but all in all in good shape and drivable, just not “showable” That will come in 3-4 years when I retire

Just needs a coat of paint!
Image: 5231532590_51762eec74_m.jpg

171 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:40:40pm

The photos of the 4 men hanging shown above is not the same as those US contractors, shown here: aljazeera.com

You don’t have to look; my word is good on this one. It was in March 2004 when a number of atrocities were being committed in Iraq by western forces.

172 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:43:14pm

The thief who came to dinner without a passport.

173 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:43:58pm

...

174 freetoken  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:45:37pm

re: #172 darthstar

The man boy without a country - but he actually has one, but if he returns home he’ll have to face justice.

175 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:46:15pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

CMIIW but weren’t these people executed because they were GAY?
(Can’t respond to Prudence b/c BLOCKED LIBRUL!!11!!)

[Embedded content]

AFAIK, simply being Christian isn’t a capital offense in Iran. Those super-baggy MC Hammer type pants they were wearing are traditionally Kurdish, so it could have been political. Or it could have been just about anything really—impossible to tell.

Happy Independence Day, everyone.

176 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:46:29pm

re: #174 freetoken

The man boy without a country - but he actually has one, but if he returns home he’ll have to face justice.

He’s not a boy. He’s 29. He should (and will) be tried as an adult.

177 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:47:20pm

re: #170 darthstar

Just needs a coat of paint!
Image: 5231532590_51762eec74_m.jpg

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

looking at that, I see
Youtube Video

178 darthstar  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:51:53pm
179 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:53:13pm

re: #172 darthstar

The thief who came to dinner without a passport.

[Embedded content]

He’s becoming an embarrassment to to Russians. They want him gone. Vlad is probably regretting even letting hom get off the plane.

Well played Mr. President. Well played.

180 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:53:16pm

re: #178 darthstar

Seems Snowden has turned into a hot potato.

181 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:53:54pm

re: #175 CuriousLurker

Happy Independence Day, everyone.

Back at you and hope your recovery continues to improve.
FWIW, your experience has given me the kick in the butt to quit smoking after all these decades.

182 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 2:54:27pm

re: #175 CuriousLurker

Same to you as well CL.

183 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:02:32pm

re: #181 Backwoods_Sleuth

Back at you and hope your recovery continues to improve.
FWIW, your experience has given me the kick in the butt to quite smoking after all these decades.

I really glad to hear that—good for you!

I was hoping the cravings would subside by now, but I still get them several times a day. Drives me nuts.

184 jayjaybear  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:06:46pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

I’m pretty much cruising for a blocking, I’m sure.

185 jayjaybear  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:08:57pm

re: #175 CuriousLurker

I’m finding that same photo associated with the gay executions in multiple places, so I’m assuming that’s what it was.

186 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:17:22pm

re: #183 CuriousLurker

I was hoping the cravings would subside by now, but I still get them several times a day. Drives me nuts.

yeah, I’m getting the cravings too, but not very often (which I find quite surprising).
Anyway, several measured deep breaths or long sips of water generally knock the edges off the cravings for me. Also, somewhat brisk walking (how’s that for a euphemism? LOL!)

187 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:19:59pm

re: #186 Backwoods_Sleuth

re: #183 CuriousLurker

swizzle sticks

I quit a 2 1/2 - 3 pack a day habit over 25 years ago,, any time I got the urge I popped a swizzle stick in my mouth (releieved the oral fixation part of it)

188 bubba zanetti  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:22:43pm

re: #185 jayjaybear

Nope, seems to be “In a separate execution, Iranian media say four criminals were hanged in front of a large crowd in the southern city of Shiraz. The four had been convicted of possessing weapons, drug smuggling and attacking police.” - see #167 and #168.

189 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:27:04pm

re: #187 sattv4u2

swizzle sticks

I quit a 2 1/2 - 3 pack a day habit over 25 years ago,, any time I got the urge I popped a swizzle stick in my mouth (releieved the oral fixation part of it)

oh yeah, swizzle sticks are wonderful!


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