Washington Post Calls for US to Suspend Aid to Egypt

A lot hinges on a word
Middle East • Views: 31,576

The new military leaders of Egypt are denying they staged a “military coup,” because if whatever happened there is classified as a coup, US aid to Egypt must be cut off. And it’s a good bet the leaders of the *cough* don’t want that to happen, since all those impressive jet fighters they’ve been flying over Cairo were paid for by that aid.

The Washington Post makes it clear where they stand: US Must Suspend Aid.

THERE IS no ambiguity about what happened in Egypt on Wednesday: a military coup against a democratically elected government and the wrong response to the country’s problems. The armed forces forcibly removed and arrested President Mohamad Morsi, who won 51 percent of the vote in a free and fair election little more than a year ago. A constitution ratified by a two-thirds majority in another popular vote last December was suspended; dozens of leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood have been arrested and a number of media outlets shut down. A little-known judge appointed as president and granted the power to rule by decree will be entirely dependent on the armed forces for his authority.

Having not spoken up against the excesses of Mr. Morsi’s government, the Obama administration has, with equal fecklessness, failed to forthrightly oppose the military intervention. But there should be no question that under a law passed by Congress, U.S. aid to Egypt — including the $1.3 billion annual grant to the military — must be suspended.

It’s a nasty, tangled situation all right, and yes, the Muslim Brotherhood was voted into power by a majority. But since that election they’ve been taking major steps that have nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with turning Egypt into an authoritarian Islamic state. One of the big reasons Egyptian secularists rose up against the Morsi government in such gigantic numbers was because they saw their democratic freedoms eroding before their eyes, and feared that the “free and fair election” described by the Post would also turn out to be the last free election.

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125 comments
1 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:29:09pm
2 freetoken  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:29:37pm

Maybe even a more fundamental question is asked by this CNN headline:

Why Americans should care about Egypt

The article is sort of a scatter-brained approach to answering that question.

I wonder if as a nation we’re so saturated now with hot button issues that there is much mind-space left to give to the Egypt issue.

3 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:34:37pm

I don’t think the US is going to cut off aid. There’s too much at stake.

4 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:37:35pm

Cutting aid would be quite a statement.

5 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:38:20pm
6 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:40:46pm

re: #4 Amory Blaine

Cutting aid would be quite a statement.

It’s would also compound Egypt’s troubles greatly and could possibly scuttle any hope of secularists in Egypt succeeding.

7 erik_t  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:44:23pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

I don’t think the US is going to cut off aid. There’s too much at stake.

Absolutist foreign policy is a rare beast indeed. This sort of thing is why.

8 freetoken  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:45:01pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Are we running the risk of deluding ourselves into thinking we can manage this problem (i.e. Egypt)?

9 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:46:21pm

They arrested another top member of the MB.

10 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:46:52pm

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

They arrested another top member of the MB.

[Embedded content]

I guess he wasn’t strong enough.

11 freetoken  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:47:04pm

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

When is a dead parrot not a dead parrot?

12 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:47:55pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

I don’t think the US is going to cut off aid. There’s too much at stake.

If Obama cuts aid then I can hear the nutjobs screaming about how he is disappointed because he wanted the MB in charge so now he is punishing the free people of Egypt!!!!Eleventy

13 Kragar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:48:41pm

re: #11 freetoken

When is a dead parrot not a dead parrot?

When its pining.

14 erik_t  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:48:48pm

re: #8 freetoken

Are we running the risk of deluding ourselves into thinking we can manage this problem (i.e. Egypt)?

I think we can observe that cutting off aid would likely make things worse, without imagining exactly what we’d do to make it better.

Just in general, major money changes are a destabilizing effect, and I don’t think that Egypt needs any less stability right now.

15 sagehen  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:49:10pm

Since our annual aid package was sent just a couple of months ago, and the next one isn’t due for almost another year — that’s plenty of time (if the Egyptian military wants) to put together a reasonably inclusive pluralistic constitution, call new elections, get a new multi-partisan cabinet and parliament together…

16 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:50:03pm

re: #8 freetoken

Are we running the risk of deluding ourselves into thinking we can manage this problem (i.e. Egypt)?

That’s always a risk but it’s not our problem to manage. Of course we’d like to see a free, open and secular Egypt. Although I’m not surprised the Muslim Bros couldn’t resist the urge to start pushing a more theocratic government I still think it was the right thing to do for us to support them and give them a chance. They failed on their own. Political religion is problematic, and political Islam is particularly problematic. People are going to have to learn to balance religion and government. They can only learn by doing it themselves.

17 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:51:18pm

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

They arrested another top member of the MB.

[Embedded content]

itv.com
He seems nice
Image: article_bbc59e9883fcf216_1373063608_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg

18 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:55:10pm

The next aid installment isn’t due for almost a year anyways, so the whole situation could become moot if elections are held before then and the MB is allowed to participate, which the army has indicated they’re welcome to do.

The biggest factor in all this is probably the degree to which the Egyptian economy is dependent on tourism. Allowing the Muslim Brotherhood to participate in politics fully, be elected and govern after decades of being either repressed or outright banned has given them an opportunity to delegitimize themselves thoroughly in the eyes of the people.

19 freetoken  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:55:52pm

Off topic already but this just popped up and I think it is just one more reminder of what is really going on in TX:


Perry’s sister an advocate for surgical centers

One of the controversial tenets of the abortion restriction bill would require all abortions to be performed in ambulatory surgical centers, which are a distinct type of healthcare facility set up for outpatient surgeries. Abortion rights advocates say the new requirement would force many clinics to close because they wouldn’t be able to afford to upgrade their facilities. They also say the upgrades are unnecessary and that no data shows current clinics aren’t properly equipped to provide good care.

If the bill passes, only five Texas abortion clinics would remain open — those that are already equipped as ambulatory surgical centers, advocates say. But a question remains: would the 420 other ambulatory surgical centers that exist in Texas begin performing the operation? Abortion rights advocates predict that the demand for the procedure won’t disappear with passage of the law.

One company that will be faced with that decision is United Surgical Partners International, based in Addison, TX. Their vice-president of government affairs is Milla Perry Jones, Gov. Rick Perry’s sister. She is also on the board of the Texas Ambulatory Surgical Center Society. It should be noted that the legislation now under consideration by the Texas Legislature is patterned after proposals that have been adopted in other states, so it did not originate with Gov. Perry’s office. Rich Parsons, a Perry spokesman said he could not say whether Perry has discussed the legislation with his sister, but said, “he strongly supports protecting women’s health by raising the standard of care they receive at abortion clinics.”

Yeah, religion and politics do mix, along with family.

20 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:56:59pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

That’s always a risk but it’s not our problem to manage.

At one point eleventy billion dollars per year, I believe it is at least in part, our problem. As you have said, withdrawing that money makes the problem bigger.

21 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:04:15pm

i’m disappointed to hear that this is being used as an excuse to crack down on the mb, but on the other hand they have done little to gain sympathy in this country

22 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:06:30pm

re: #20 wrenchwench

At one point eleventy billion dollars per year, I believe it is at least in part, our problem. As you have said, withdrawing that money makes the problem bigger.

the realpolitik of the situation has cough*suezcanal*cough resulted in egypt being the second largest recipient of american foreign aid, so there would tend to be at least a little concern in the u.s. government…

23 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:08:20pm

John Kerry and Water Sports: An Unfortunate History. Heh. He said “water sports.”

24 erik_t  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:08:46pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

John Kerry and Water Sports: An Unfortunate History. Heh. He said “water sports.”

I bet Kerry is pissed.

25 Kragar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:09:19pm

re: #24 erik_t

I bet Kerry is pissed.

Say it, don’t spray it.

26 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:10:00pm

President Obama is now in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation. If he refuses to cut aid, he is in violation of the Law and could face impeachment. If he cuts aid, he risks alienating the Egyptian military who more or less control the Country and as the Cat has pointed out the Suez Canal. Some times it sucks to be the man in the big chair.

27 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:11:55pm

re: #23 Charles Johnson

John Kerry and Water Sports: An Unfortunate History. Heh. He said “water sports.”

Well, since 2004 the water seems to be something of a jinx for Kerry.

28 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:13:24pm

Wonkette has a gallery of “artworks” featured by Glenn Beck of the “McNaughton” style of “fine art”

29 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:13:31pm

re: #26 Bubblehead II

He won’t be impeached. It would actually do him good to offer up that kind of technical grounds for impeachment in order to try and induce Republicans in the House to “crash the clown car”.

30 piratedan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:14:30pm

re: #26 Bubblehead II

President Obama is now in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation. If he refuses to cut aid, he is in violation of the Law and could face impeachment. If he cuts aid, he risks alienating the Egyptian military who more or less control the Country and as the Cat has pointed out the Suez Canal. Some times it sucks to be the man in the big chair.

would see if he makes continued aid contingent upon free elections being offered in six months. Maybe this time, the secularists will see that boycotting a “free election” that has a theocratic party that is directly opposed to democratic principals isn’t a great idea and I would revoke Nader’s passport to ensure he doesn’t fuck things up ///

31 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:14:38pm

just because the year is 2013 doesn’t mean that 20 minute compiles have disappeared…

…..

……….

…………..

32 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:15:39pm

re: #28 Vicious Babushka

Wonkette has a gallery of “artworks” featured by Glenn Beck of the “McNaughton” style of “fine art”

[Embedded content]

Poor-grade knock-offs is what those paintings were. they were of the same theme as McNaughton’s but demonstrated less skill and less attention to detail.

33 thecommodore  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:15:44pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

I don’t think the US is going to cut off aid. There’s too much at stake.

This is the quintessential sh*t sandwich. We should do what damns us least, which is not calling it a coup so we can continue to aid the Egyptian military. Great care must be taken, because this could very well help the Muslim Brotherhood - politically, they might be better off being out of power than in power because of the way they lost that power.

*Ugh*

On another note, the wingnuts are saying the reason Obama won’t call it a coup is because he is sympathetic to the MB because, of course, he is a covert Muslim himself. I mean, he let it slip during that one interview to George Stephanopoulos… ///

34 freetoken  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:16:06pm

re: #26 Bubblehead II

Does the law call for a time limit?

Couldn’t Obama start an official process, have the State department open an investigation, that could buy enough time until a new election happens?

35 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:17:17pm

re: #22 engineer cat

the realpolitik of the situation has cough*suezcanal*cough resulted in egypt being the second largest recipient of american foreign aid, so there would tend to be at least a little concern in the u.s. government…

Man, between you and Charles,

And it’s a good bet the leaders of the *cough* don’t want that to happen,

I’m beginning to get concerned. Maybe the Egyptian croup is going around.

36 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:17:47pm

re: #34 freetoken

Does the law call for a time limit?

Couldn’t Obama start an official process, have the State department open an investigation, that could buy enough time until a new election happens?

I’m sure there are tons of ways to prolong aid while we see where Egypt is headed next. There are exceptions and loopholes galore.

37 Bubblehead II  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:22:57pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

re: #30 piratedan

re: #34 freetoken

Look, all I know is this mess is a total cluster fuck. And probably a major pain for PBO. But if the rwnj/teahadias can use it to their advantage, they will.

Up to impeachment hearings.

38 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:22:59pm

re: #31 engineer cat

just because the year is 2013 doesn’t mean that 20 minute compiles have disappeared…

…..

……….

…………..

Heh. Sounds like a big project.

I’ve been, for pure giggles, putting together a Xenix 386 system straight out of 1990 and one of the things I did the other day was recompile a windowing system for it. On a real 386 that was a day long project. In emulation, it went a wee bit faster. Next up is rebuilding Franz Lisp from the BSD 4.1 distribution ;)

39 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:29:17pm

The USA has been in this same position (who to back,, whether to pull aid or not) many times over the years

Vietnam,,, knowing that Ngo Dinh Diem being on “our side” against the Viet Cong was also slaughtering Buddhists in his own country, still had the backing of Kennedy and later Johnson. Afghanistan wrt the Northern Alliance,,

The only way to ensure against it, isolationism which is NOT realistic

40 Kragar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:31:00pm

Christians upset over Depp’s ‘Tonto’ being too pagan in ‘Lone Ranger’

Dr. Ted Baehr of the Christian Film and Television Coalition told the Post, “The government is bad - the army is killing Indians - the bad guy is a businessman, the military-industrial complex is bad.” However, he said, “the Christians are not always bad.”

Baehr lamented that the villain of the film prays to Jesus before heading out to kill Native Americans and that “the pagan elements triumph because you’re looking at it from Tanto’s [sic.] point of view.”

He called the movie “such a mess” and said that it is another example of liberal left-wing Hollywood values being inculcated into children at a young age.

41 krypto  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:31:28pm

I heard Fareed Zacharia comment on CNN that the Muslim Brotherhood actually received less than a majority vote in the election, and that the sum of votes for all the secular candidates was a majority. The problem was that the secular groups couldn’t get together to run a single candidate, while the Islamist forces did.

42 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:32:01pm
43 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:32:18pm

re: #40 Kragar

Christians upset over Depp’s ‘Tonto’ being too pagan in ‘Lone Ranger’

Well, I heard that the movie utterly sucked and Johnny Depp was just being “Jack Sparrow with a bird on his head”

44 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:35:45pm

re: #42 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Yeah, Dkos has been very upset by that all day and demanding he be fired for Islamophobic racism. The article is reasonable and should be a source of debate from people who disagree instead of demanding he lose his job.

45 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:35:46pm
46 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:39:09pm

re: #37 Bubblehead II

Look, all I know is this mess is a total cluster fuck. And probably a major pain for PBO. But if the rwnj/teahadias can use it to their advantage, they will.

Up to impeachment hearings.

But impeachment hearings wouldn’t be to their advantage. As a practical matter, the only way a president could be impeached today is if he(she) were found in bed with a dead member of the opposite sex or a live but too young member of the same sex. Anything else and the senators of the president’s party will close ranks and refuse to vote for conviction. Thus any such hearings are just a waste of time and will be seen as such.

47 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:39:34pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Yeah, Dkos has been very upset by that all day and demanding he be fired for Islamophobic racism. The article is reasonable and should be a source of debate from people who disagree instead of demanding he lose his job.

A comment on the diary demanding Krugman be fired for bigotry gets 55 updings….

At the risk of sounding bigoted (55+ / 0-)

I have to say that I sometimes feel the Christianists in this country “lack the mental equipment” to govern. And the certainly “lack the mental ingredients” for democracy, namely any belief in it.

48 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:40:49pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

A comment on the diary demanding Krugman be fired for bigotry gets 55 updings….

That’s a rather clueless post, isn’t it.

49 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:41:39pm

Krugman or Brooks?

50 Interesting Times  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:42:00pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

What do you mean “Krugman”? The article was written by David Brooks:

51 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:42:33pm

re: #50 Interesting Times

What do you mean “Krugman”? The article was written by David Brooks:

[Embedded content]

slip of the keyboard

52 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:43:08pm

re: #45 Gus

Nicaragua’s President Ortega says Edward Snowden applied for asylum, which would be granted “if circumstances permit”

The circumstances would be if he could make it there without getting caught.

53 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:43:29pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

That’s a rather clueless post, isn’t it.

It sad but I do take heart that this kind of rhetoric is usually just crap people say to make themselves feel superior or fit in with the “right” crowd. Although lots of people say this kind of thing very few of them actually believe it.

54 twisty  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:43:59pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

IMO the article is mostly fine but the mental ingredients line does trouble me. I can’t say for sure if he meant it “that way” but it was unnecessary, whatever he meant by it.

55 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:44:02pm

Mark Twain would be fired in this day and age.

//

56 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:44:12pm

re: #42 NJDhockeyfan

There is some remarkable irony in the Brooks column:

World events of the past few months have vindicated those who take the substance side of the argument. It has become clear — in Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Gaza and elsewhere — that radical Islamists are incapable of running a modern government. Many have absolutist, apocalyptic mind-sets. They have a strange fascination with a culture of death.
[…] Islamists might be determined enough to run effective opposition movements and committed enough to provide street-level social services. But they lack the mental equipment to govern. Once in office, they are always going to centralize power and undermine the democracy that elevated them.

I find this to be a perfectly reasonable description of the mindset and capabilities of radial Islamists.

It is also true that these points are significantly, and to an increasing degree, applicable to the US GOP.

57 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:45:09pm

re: #55 Gus

So could Jonathan Swift.

58 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:45:09pm

re: #50 Interesting Times

What do you mean “Krugman”? The article was written by David Brooks:

[Embedded content]

Ah, sorry. Mixed up my NYT editorial writers.

59 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:46:32pm

re: #54 twisty

IMO the article is mostly fine but the mental ingredients line does trouble me. I can’t say for sure if he meant it “that way” but it was unnecessary, whatever he meant by it.

Brooks should have said “historical ingredients”.

60 gunnison  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:47:43pm
One of the big reasons Egyptian secularists rose up against the Morsi government in such gigantic numbers was because they saw their democratic freedoms eroding before their eyes

True enough.
Also relevant is the fact that food prices have almost doubled during Morsi’s short tenure and he’s been pursuing that tired old “austerity” dodge by cutting subsidies to the poor for fuel and so on.

Also, if the auditor’s reports are credible, he’s been pocketing a large slice of the aid that has flowed to his government - some ₤500 million of EU taxpayer money has basically disappeared without a trace according to the European Court of Auditors.

A complicated mess, and the chances of moving forward without the process, whatever that might be, being hamstrung by lingering resentments from all sides is probably somewhere around zero.

61 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:48:31pm

re: #54 twisty

IMO the article is mostly fine but the mental ingredients line does trouble me. I can’t say for sure if he meant it “that way” but it was unnecessary, whatever he meant by it.

I think it’s fair to debate what he might have meant by that but I don;t think he intended what people are accusing him of. It’s a common tactic of the Outrageous Outrage is to take a reasonable statement, twist the intended meaning and then attribute it to the target. I’ve seen it a million times, it’s and old and tired trick.

62 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:49:36pm

re: #54 twisty

IMO the article is mostly fine but the mental ingredients line does trouble me. I can’t say for sure if he meant it “that way” but it was unnecessary, whatever he meant by it.

Here’s the full context of what Brooks wrote:

World events of the past few months have vindicated those who take the substance side of the argument. It has become clear — in Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Gaza and elsewhere — that radical Islamists are incapable of running a modern government. Many have absolutist, apocalyptic mind-sets. They have a strange fascination with a culture of death. “Dying for the sake of God is more sublime than anything,” declared one speaker at a pro-Morsi rally in Cairo on Tuesday.

As Adam Garfinkle, the editor of The American Interest, put it in an essay recently, for this sort of person “there is no need for causality, since that would imply a diminution of God’s power.” This sort of person “does not accept the existence of an objective fact separate from how he feels about it.”

Islamists might be determined enough to run effective opposition movements and committed enough to provide street-level social services. But they lack the mental equipment to govern. Once in office, they are always going to centralize power and undermine the democracy that elevated them.

Nathan Brown made that point about the Muslim Brotherhood recently in The New Republic: “The tight-knit organization built for resilience under authoritarianism made for an inward-looking, even paranoid movement when it tried to refashion itself as a governing party.”

Brooks wasn’t saying that Egyptians or Arabs “lack the mental equipment to govern”. He was saying it about Islamists and that is a defensible statement. I understand that Daily Kos readers are legitimately concerned about bigotry, but what David Brooks wrote was analysis of a political philosophy, not anything disparaging people for racial or ethnic origins.

63 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:49:56pm
64 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:51:11pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

I’ve seen it a million times, it’s and old and tired trick.

but effective aimed at the right audience

65 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:51:22pm

Ooutrageous headline: “Congressman says he wants to outlaw children having puppies!”
In reality: some boring legislation about funding animal shelters and dog catchers.

66 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:52:11pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

I think it’s fair to debate what he might have meant by that but I don;t think he intended what people are accusing him of. It’s a common tactic of the Outrageous Outrage is to take a reasonable statement, twist the intended meaning and then attribute it to the target. I’ve seen it a million times, it’s and old and tired trick.

Another is to refuse to admit error and say that their interpretation reflects the “truthiness” of the person they are attacking. This is at root another case of the post-modern inflamed ego and insistence on being indulged even when wrong.

67 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:52:28pm

re: #64 sattv4u2

I’ve seen it a million times, it’s and old and tired trick.

but effective aimed at the right audience

It’s been a successful model for cable news channels for quite some time now.

68 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:54:18pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Another is to refuse to admit error and say that their interpretation reflects the “truthiness” of the person they are attacking. This is at root another case of the post-modern inflamed ego and insistence on being indulged even when wrong.

The outrageously outraged will always pretend to be confused and not understand no matter how many explanations and clarifications they get.

69 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:54:40pm


I’m sure a lot of MB supporters will believe that too.

70 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:55:16pm

Here.

Egyptians lack Egypt lacks ‘basic mental constitutional ingredients’ necessary for democracy.

71 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:55:35pm

re: #69 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

I’m sure a lot of MB supporters will believe that too.

They should be fired! //

72 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:58:12pm
73 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:58:20pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Here’s the full context of what Brooks wrote:

Brooks wasn’t saying that Egyptians or Arabs “lack the mental equipment to govern”. He was saying it about Islamists and that is a defensible statement. I understand that Daily Kos readers are legitimately concerned about bigotry, but what David Brooks wrote was analysis of a political philosophy, not anything disparaging people for racial or ethnic origins.

The tweet about it was clearly wrong. However, if one wishes to accuse Brooks of racism, he supplied plenty of fodder a few columns back.

[…]

In other words, immigration reform won’t transform America. It will just speed up the arrival of a New America that is already guaranteed.

As we stand on the cusp of this New America, it’s understandable to feel some anxiety. If you take sociology and culture seriously, it’s sensible to wonder whether this is the sort of country we want to be. Can we absorb this many immigrants without changing something fundamental?

[…]

We could also see more ethnic jostling between groups. The most interesting and problematic flashpoint may be between immigrants and African-Americans. We now have this bogus category, “minority,” in which we lump the supposed rainbow coalition of immigrants and blacks. But, in fact, tensions between “minority” groups could soon be more plainly obvious than any solidarity.

[…]

It’s not unalloyed racism, he finishes on an up note

On the whole, this future is exciting. The challenge will be to create a global civilization that is, at the same time, distinctly American. Immigration reform or not, the nation of mutts is coming.

but I sure see more tell-tale signs there than in his most recent column.

74 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:58:35pm

re: #69 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]


I’m sure a lot of MB supporters will believe that too.

All purpose Islamist answer to wearing out their welcome and getting bounced out on their asses: Blame TEH JOOOOSS!!!11

75 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 4:58:54pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

It seems that Brook’s last line is causing the trouble: “It’s not that Egypt doesn’t have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack even the basic mental ingredients.”

This statement is not limited to the Islamists the way the earlier “mental equipment” statement was.

I’m not going to get outrageously outraged by something like this, but I do think that someone who writes for a living on hot button issues should write with more precision than this.

76 twisty  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:00:09pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Thank you but I had already read the article for context —!

Preceding paragraph is talking about Egyptians as a whole and those in the Middle East who are opposed to the status quo… and implies the big thinkers are all gone to imprisonment or worse. Fair point, maybe? Underestimating the people who are still left, maybe? I’m not calling for him to be fired, but it reflects sloppy writing (and editing) that nobody caught how the line would read.

77 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:00:31pm

re: #73 wrenchwench

The tweet about it was clearly wrong. However, if one wishes to accuse Brooks of racism, he supplied plenty of fodder a few columns back.

It’s not unalloyed racism, he finishes on an up note

but I sure see more tell-tale signs there than in his most recent column.

Oh, mutts. Heh. Whew, Brooks is a douche.

78 Shockingly, Pathetically Low  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:00:48pm

re: #69 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]


I’m sure a lot of MB supporters will believe that too.

In that case, maybe they’ll get some decent governance for a while.

/(about half)

79 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:01:33pm

re: #73 wrenchwench

The tweet about it was clearly wrong. However, if one wishes to accuse Brooks of racism, he supplied plenty of fodder a few columns back.

It’s not unalloyed racism, he finishes on an up note

but I sure see more tell-tale signs there than in his most recent column.

Those excerpts don’t seem racist to me, not in and of themselves anyway. If John Derbyshire had said that, then yes, I’d say it was evidence of racism. But given his body of work to date, David Brooks is entitled to a more favorable interpretation of his words.

80 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:02:06pm

re: #77 Gus

Oh, mutts. Heh. Whew, Brooks is a douche.

I forgot the link.

81 bratwurst  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:02:19pm
82 Gus  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:05:04pm

re: #80 wrenchwench

I forgot the link.

Not as bad looking at the whole thing.

83 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:05:51pm

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

Those excerpts don’t seem racist to me, not in and of themselves anyway. If John Derbyshire had said that, then yes, I’d say it was evidence of racism. But given his body of work to date, David Brooks is entitled to a more favorable interpretation of his words.

Nobody is ‘entitled’ to any interpretation other than what any reasonable person sees when they read. Especially a writer. they are professionals who are supposed to be able to communicate their thoughts without need for ‘interpretation’. And I don’t expect to need to have read a whole bunch of Brooks’s stuff to know what he meant by ‘mutts’. It shows his ignorance about race if he thinks Euro-Americans are any less ‘mutts’ than the mixtures he anticipates in the future.

84 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:06:48pm

re: #82 Gus

Not as bad looking at the whole thing.

I definitely pulled the most damning parts I could find.

It’s not VDARE, but it contains ignorance.

85 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:07:25pm

“Undercover Brother” is on IFC. Hilarious movie. Haven’t seen this in years.

86 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:07:39pm

re: #75 EPR-radar

To follow up on this, we also have in the WSJ online.wsj.com

this gem

…Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile’s Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy. If General Sisi merely tries to restore the old Mubarak order, he will eventually suffer Mr. Morsi’s fate.

Brooks makes noises about Egyptian inability to self-govern, and another member of the WSJ merry band of cavemen under Murdoch wishes for an Egyptian Pinochet.

87 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:08:03pm

re: #83 wrenchwench

In an age of obfuscation and dog whistles, interpretation is sometimes a necessity.

88 bratwurst  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:08:15pm
89 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:09:27pm

re: #88 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

Now how do they get him out of Moscow?

90 bratwurst  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:09:37pm

And moments later:

91 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:09:48pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

In an age of obfuscation and dog whistles, interpretation is sometimes a necessity.

Depending on the definition of ‘interpretation’ used, I agree. Context always helps.

92 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:10:00pm

re: #90 bratwurst

And moments later:

[Embedded content]

Somewhere, Hugo Chavez is smiling!

93 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:11:29pm
94 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:11:44pm

What kind of a job can he get in Venezuela?

95 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:12:18pm

I wanna see Nicaragua and Venezuela fight over Snowden. In Lucha Libre masks.

96 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:13:00pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

What kind of a job can he get in Venezuela?

With his awesome skillz, he can work in a sweatshop!

97 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:13:02pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

What kind of a job can he get in Venezuela?

I hear they eat off of dishes and walk on floors there….

98 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:13:33pm
99 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:13:37pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

Depending on the definition of ‘interpretation’ used, I agree. Context always helps.

I agree that context is always helpful. However, a writer who doesn’t want his work to be interpreted in ways not intended usually has ways to make the original text less ambiguous.

If Brooks doesn’t want to go the trouble of being precise, then he gets the trouble associated with being ambiguous.

100 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:15:45pm

re: #99 EPR-radar

I agree that context is always helpful. However, a writer who doesn’t want his work to be interpreted in ways not intended usually has ways to make the original text less ambiguous.

If Brooks doesn’t want to go the trouble of being precise, then he gets the trouble associated with being ambiguous.

Exactly. If he feels constrained by his columnar format, let him use only Twitter for a while. His column will feel roomy after that.

101 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:18:24pm

re: #73 wrenchwench

The tweet about it was clearly wrong. However, if one wishes to accuse Brooks of racism, he supplied plenty of fodder a few columns back.

It’s not unalloyed racism, he finishes on an up note

but I sure see more tell-tale signs there than in his most recent column.

Ah, that makes this latest outrageous outrage make more sense. Progressives were already looking for something to be outraged about.

102 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:19:09pm

re: #100 wrenchwench

Exactly. If he feels constrained by his columnar format, let him use only Twitter for a while. His column will feel roomy after that.

He didn’t even need more words. Something like:

“It’s not that Egypt doesn’t have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack any historical ingredients for it.”

would probably not have set off anyone’s racism sensors.

103 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:20:26pm

re: #101 Killgore Trout

Ah, that makes this latest outrageous outrage make more sense. Progressives were already looking for something to be outraged about.

I’d put it more like this:

People who hate racism had already detected some in Brooks’s writing, so they were primed to find more. Brooks made it easy.

104 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:22:56pm

re: #102 EPR-radar

He didn’t even need more words. Something like:

“It’s not that Egypt doesn’t have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack any historical ingredients for it.”

would probably not have set off anyone’s racism sensors.

Room for 16 more characters, even with the quotation marks in there!

105 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:23:26pm

re: #75 EPR-radar

It seems that Brook’s last line is causing the trouble: “It’s not that Egypt doesn’t have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack even the basic mental ingredients.”

This statement is not limited to the Islamists the way the earlier “mental equipment” statement was.

I’m not going to get outrageously outraged by something like this, but I do think that someone who writes for a living on hot button issues should write with more precision than this.

I think what he’s saying is that they lack democratic culture and attidudes which come from living in an open democratic society. These are cultural attitudes that come from experiencing democracy, they aren’t inherited racial traits.
I guess he can be faulted for not foreseeing that people might twist his words and make accusations but that doesn’t change the point he was trying to make.

106 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:24:15pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

What kind of a job can he get in Venezuela?

Leaker in Residence.

107 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:26:30pm

Soon, we will no longer be an outpost of Europe, but a nation of mutts, a nation with hundreds of fluid ethnicities from around the world, intermarrying and intermingling.

this is racist on the face of it

i don’t even care to parse it farther, it’s moronic and shows a shameful lack of knowledge of history

108 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:27:27pm

Here’s something progressives are outraged about. Passed on a holiday weekend.

Scott Walker signs abortion bill, providers quickly sue

Gov. Scott Walker signed a bill Friday requiring doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges, and abortion clinics responded by immediately suing state officials over the measure.

The law — signed Friday by Walker in a private ceremony — would cut the number of clinics offering abortions in Wisconsin from four to two, and one of the remaining clinics will have to dramatically cut the number of abortions it provides, according to the operators of the clinics. The law is to take effect Monday.

Huyck said if the suit does not block the law, Planned Parenthood would have to close its Appleton abortion clinic and offer at least 50% fewer abortions at its Milwaukee facility. Affiliated would have to close its Milwaukee clinic, according to the suit.

That would mean abortions in Wisconsin would not be available north of Madison, and after the 19th week of pregnancy would not be available anywhere in the state, according to the suit.

The law requires women seeking abortions to get ultrasounds and requires doctors providing them to have admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles.

The law’s critics call the ultrasound provision an unnecessary infringement on the doctor-patient relationship but do not plan to challenge it in court at this time. Supporters say the provision makes sure women seeking abortions have as much information as possible.

Other states in recent years have also enacted ultrasound requirements. Wisconsin would become the ninth state to have such a law. Under the provision, the person performing the ultrasound must describe the dimensions of the fetus, its external features and its heartbeat. The ultrasound monitor would be in view of the woman, but she would not be forced to look at it.

109 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:28:19pm

Blech I didn’t format that right

110 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:29:03pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

I think what he’s saying is that they lack democratic culture and attidudes which come from living in an open democratic society. These are cultural attitudes that come from experiencing democracy, they aren’t inherited racial traits.
I guess he can be faulted for not foreseeing that people might twist his words and make accusations but that doesn’t change the point he was trying to make.

I agree that this is a plausible reading, which is why “historical ingredients” is about 100x better language to use than “mental ingredients”. Brooks didn’t need “mental” to make his point.

Brooks needs to take the lesson from Mark Twain:

The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter—it’s the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning.

111 efuseakay  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:31:12pm

I’m honestly split on this aid to Egypt thing. For one, I doubt they’ve been using our aid as we have intended to begin with. Also, that aid just means there’s less for them to do to take care of themselves.

But on the other hand, we need them and their influence in the region. It’s become a very small world, which means we will ultimately make nice with less-than-ideal partners.

112 twisty  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:31:16pm

re: #107 engineer cat

As a white person with ancestors from at least 14 different countries I am confused that he seems to think most Americans are not already ‘mutts’…

113 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:32:02pm

re: #110 EPR-radar

I agree that this is a plausible reading, which is why “historical ingredients” is about 100x better language to use than “mental ingredients”. Brooks didn’t need “mental” to make his point.

Brooks needs to take the lesson from Mark Twain:

It seems people were already looking for reasons to be outraged at him. When people are looking for a reason to be outraged they’ll find one.

114 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:35:06pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

It seems people were already looking for reasons to be outraged at him. When people are looking for a reason to be outraged they’ll find one.

I doubt anyone would have been looking for more if he hadn’t served up some outrage on a platter earlier.

115 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:39:05pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

It seems people were already looking for reasons to be outraged at him. When people are looking for a reason to be outraged they’ll find one.

Of course Brooks is always going to have people looking to twist his words against him. He’s a published columnist.

Consider two statements:

A (real) “It’s not that Egypt doesn’t have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack even the basic mental ingredients.”

B (modified) It’s not that Egypt doesn’t have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack any historical ingredients for it.

It seems to me that B is much less susceptible to being interpreted as an expression of racist attitudes than A.

So had he written B, there would be outrage, but much less than the outrage at what he actually wrote. Over time, a pattern can build up where these lapses occur often enough that people stop giving him the benefit of the doubt.

116 efuseakay  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:39:08pm

re: #112 twisty

As a white person with ancestors from at least 14 different countries I am confused that he seems to think most Americans are not already ‘mutts’…

You’d be surprised how many white people in this country consider themselves “Native American”.

117 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:39:12pm

re: #107 engineer cat

Soon, we will no longer be an outpost of Europe, but a nation of mutts, a nation with hundreds of fluid ethnicities from around the world, intermarrying and intermingling.

You know who else said that?

118 EPR-radar  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:41:39pm

re: #107 engineer cat

Soon, we will no longer be an outpost of Europe, but a nation of mutts, a nation with hundreds of fluid ethnicities from around the world, intermarrying and intermingling.

this is racist on the face of it

i don’t even care to parse it farther, it’s moronic and shows a shameful lack of knowledge of history

Rather telling that it is the mixing of European with non-European that defines the transition to a nation of mutts.

119 twisty  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:42:36pm

re: #116 efuseakay

You’d be surprised how many white people in this country consider themselves “Native American”.

Ah yes, the “go back to where you came from” bunch, to which the only real answer is “you first.”

120 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:43:38pm

re: #112 twisty

As a white person with ancestors from at least 14 different countries I am confused that he seems to think most Americans are not already ‘mutts’…

he doesn’t realize that his ancestors, presumably from britain, were a motley conglomeration of celts, romans, saxons, danes, and normans, with a few italian dancing masters who had discreet affairs with wealthy young ladies thrown in

if he had sat at the table with vortigern, the civilized, christian, celtic chieftain of the year 448 who invited in the vulgar, uncivilized, pagan saxons hengist and horsa to help him out against his enemies, he would no doubt be highly concerned at the degradation of celtic briton civilization

brooks is too polite to draw the conclusions implicit in the word “mutts”, but his readers hear the dog whistle just the same and sound off like ivy league versions of freepers and klansmen

121 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:45:15pm

re: #117 Vicious Babushka

You know who else said that?

hmmm…. let me think….

122 twisty  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:48:18pm

re: #120 engineer cat

Good point too. Everyone’s mutts if you look back far enough.

123 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 5:50:18pm

re: #122 twisty

Good point too. Everyone’s mutts if you look back far enough at their DNA.

FTFY.

124 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:44:37pm

Democracy isn’t one vote one time. It’s the peaceful transition between elected governments. It’s consensual. Morsi may have been elected democratically, but his undemocratic actions, taken in concert with a constitution that eroded the rights of its citizens and allowed the military to retain its position of power meant that more and more Egyptians were being disenfranchised before their eyes.

Call it a coup, and the country loses that foreign aid, making an already bad economic situation even worse. In fact, cutting aid would actually improve the standing of the Islamists and MB, who could claim that because they were duly elected that the acts of the military and secularist protesters were illegal and must be punished. Not only that, but the withholding of aid could be what it takes to bring the Islamists back into power. After all, it was economics that led to Murbarak’s downfall and Morsi’s rise to power, and then Morsi’s downfall as he and the Brotherhood ignored the economy to focus on consolidating power and implementing the Islamist agenda.

125 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:35:23pm

We are allowing a dangerous precendent to be set here:

One of the big reasons Egyptian secularists The Tea Party rose up against the Morsi Obama government in such gigantic numbers was because they saw their democratic freedoms eroding before their eyes, and feared that the “free and fair election” described by the Post MSM would also turn out to be the last free election.


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