Snowden and Venezuela: The Real Total Surveillance State

In Venezuela one cannot have any expectation of privacy or free speech
World • Views: 25,497

I wouldn’t expect any condemnation of Venezuela’s shocking abuses of privacy and free speech from Glenn Greenwald; after all, Barack Obama isn’t president there: Snowden and Venezuela: My Bizarre Experience in the Surveillance State.

The Venezuelan government’s offer of “humanitarian asylum” to Edward Snowden rang hollow to most Venezuelans, who are by now used to the government spying on opposition leaders, journalists and even their own loyalists. Not only does the government routinely record their phone conversations, it broadcasts them on government-owned TV channels.

The news that the NSA leaker has been offered asylum in Venezuela seems especially ironic to my mother and me. A few years ago, we had the bizarre experience of hearing one of our private phone calls aired on Venezuelan TV. It was played over and over again and “analyzed” by pro-government talk show host Mario Silva—a man who is now in disgrace himself because, in a weird twist of fate, a recording of him was leaked and broadcast on TV.

What was most surreal about our experience was that there was no excuse or justification for taping our phone conversation. None was needed. The government just had it.

It would be nice for Snowden, who cherishes privacy and freedom of speech so much, to be aware that in Venezuela one cannot have any expectation of either.

Meanwhile, this morning Greenwald compared people who support President Obama to the deranged right wing attack dogs of breitbart.com:

UPDATE at 7/8/13 11:09:58 am

A reminder — in an interview published by The Guardian, Edward Snowden said:

Jump to bottom

192 comments
1 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:59:19am

For someone so scared of a police state, Snowden has certainly chosen some strange bedfellows.

2 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:00:02am

Because you will find the most devoted Obama supporters at Breitbart…

In Bizarro Land.

3 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:03:31am

I can see SNL doing a sketch on this. Snowden doing commercials for the Venezuelan tourist commission.

4 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:03:34am

re: #1 Kragar

For someone so scared of a police state, Snowden has certainly chosen some strange bedfellows.

No kidding and it’s a good reason to think little of him and GG.

5 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:04:23am
I just wonder if Edward Snowden and the Americans cheering him on to my homeland are aware of all this.

No excuse for him not knowing now. It’s on the Twitters.

6 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:05:41am

I can hardly believe the crap being spewed in the Texas legislature by religious fanatics.

Youtube Video

7 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:06:24am

Greenwald probably believes that it is the fault of the US that Venezuela is a surveillance state.

8 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:07:28am

re: #6 Charles Johnson

I can hardly believe the crap being spewed in the Texas legislature by religious fanatics.

[Embedded content]

Don’t forget, Texas is the last bastion for freedom in the United States according to some.

9 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:07:48am
10 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:08:52am

re: #9 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Jesus.

11 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:08:52am

re: #5 wrenchwench

No excuse for him not knowing now. It’s on the Twitters.

Greensnow cultists simply don’t care about this. They “know” that the US is much, much worse than places like Venezuela, and they’ll find any rationalization to keep fooling themselves.

12 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:09:08am
13 HSG  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:09:12am

It’s bad enough having to listen to one-sided cell phone conversations in public no matter where you go — airport waiting areas, supermarkets, sidewalks, etc. A TV show would be exponentially worse.

14 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:09:50am

re: #9 jaunte

15 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:09:59am

Prosecution theory is easy. They are charging Snowden with leaking classified information to persons who aren’t entitled to that information.

What’s truly questionable and bizarre is your loco defense. You repeatedly claim Snowden’s a whistleblower on FISA violations, and yet none have been shown. It’s all hypothetical.

Snowden claims he’s all about protecting the country, and yet every release undermines US national security.

What does revealing NSA sites overseas have to do with FISA or Patriot Act?

What does jetting off to Hong Kong or Moscow, or seeing asylum in a foreign country have to do with whistleblowing asylum.

Here’s a hint: Nothing.

It’s the sign of someone in over their head and trying to retcon excuses for stealing classified information and giving them over to third parties for publication or other nefarious use. That’s not whistleblowing.

That’s attempting to justify the theft of national secrets and classified information.

16 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:11:18am
17 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:12:02am

re: #15 lawhawk

Prosecution theory is easy. They are charging Snowden with leaking classified information to persons who aren’t entitled to that information.

What’s truly questionable and bizarre is your loco defense. You repeatedly claim Snowden’s a whistleblower on FISA violations, and yet none have been shown. It’s all hypothetical.

Snowden claims he’s all about protecting the country, and yet every release undermines US national security.

What does revealing NSA sites overseas have to do with FISA or Patriot Act?

What does jetting off to Hong Kong or Moscow, or seeing asylum in a foreign country have to do with asylum.

Here’s a hint: Nothing.

It’s the sign of someone in over their head and trying to retcon excuses for stealing classified information and giving them over to third parties for publication or other nefarious use. That’s not whistleblowing.

That’s attempting to justify the theft of national secrets and classified information.

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!

18 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:12:30am

re: #16 Lidane

[Embedded content]

The funniest thing is Perry thinks this is setting him up to win the election in 2016.

19 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:12:50am

DERP ANTIDOTE

20 EiMitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:12:54am

So Greenwald can appear of Fox chatting with right-wing conspiracy theorists, and then use fanatical right wing hacks as a derogatory comparison for Obama supporters? Wow! I didn’t “hypocrite” was spelled with a G.

Why does this clown still have a job in journalism? He is clearly anything but objective, so no “respectable” media can hire him and still be taken seriously. And as for partisan “news” organizations, is there any bridge he hasn’t already burned?

21 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:12:56am

re: #15 lawhawk

What’s truly questionable and bizarre is your loco defense. You repeatedly claim Snowden’s a whistleblower on FISA violations, and yet none have been shown. It’s all hypothetical.

NSA Assaults!!! MetaDATA!!!

SPYING!!!!

Massive national surveillance STATE!!!!!!

//

22 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:13:31am

Venezuela’s human rights mess: undermining free speech, an independent judiciary, and repressing political dissent.

23 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:13:38am

re: #18 Kragar

The funniest thing is Perry thinks this is setting him up to win the election in 2016.

24 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:13:46am

re: #21 Bulworth

“What you’re really talking about is the full extent of human communication!!!!!!!”

25 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:14:14am

re: #18 Kragar

The funniest thing is Perry thinks this is setting him up to win the election in 2016.

He has the nomination in the bag—he’s only going to run on two issues.

26 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:14:24am

re: #12 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

They’re putting on a dog-and-pony show but from the perspective of reality, it looks like a flea circus.

27 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:14:27am

re: #22 lawhawk

VZ not exactly a Libertarian paradise either, I doesn’t thinks.

28 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:14:45am

re: #23 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Texas: where its okay to regulate a woman’s vagina and evil to regulate anything else.

29 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:15:01am
30 Ian G.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:15:21am

re: #7 Lawrence Schmerel

Greenwald probably believes that it is the fault of the US that Venezuela is a surveillance state.

I’ve seen this sort of thing from Chavez fanboys before: the US was responsible for the failed coup against Chavez (evidence? I don’t need no stinkin’ evidence!), so of course it’s the US’s fault that Chavez tightened the screws on the opposition.

31 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:15:47am

re: #15 lawhawk

Prosecution theory is easy. They are charging Snowden with leaking classified information to persons who aren’t entitled to that information.

What’s truly questionable and bizarre is your loco defense. You repeatedly claim Snowden’s a whistleblower on FISA violations, and yet none have been shown. It’s all hypothetical.

Snowden claims he’s all about protecting the country, and yet every release undermines US national security.

What does revealing NSA sites overseas have to do with FISA or Patriot Act?

What does jetting off to Hong Kong or Moscow, or seeing asylum in a foreign country have to do with asylum.

Here’s a hint: Nothing.

It’s the sign of someone in over their head and trying to retcon excuses for stealing classified information and giving them over to third parties for publication or other nefarious use. That’s not whistleblowing.

That’s attempting to justify the theft of national secrets and classified information.

ty for that, because throughout this entire dog and pony show, I’ve yet to see one actual charge of actual wrongdoing/lawbreaking going on by the NSA. What is continuing to happen is that the Professional Left and the GG gang of Liberatrian All-Stars have done an excellent job of providing cover for Secret Agent Eddy Baby and his theft of US Intelligence information as he shortsightedly shops for a new nest after soiling his previous one.

32 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:16:06am

re: #29 Lidane

NO, they’re outside the womb already. //

33 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:16:11am

re: #29 Lidane

“Some varying range of skin color must be acceptable.”

34 122 Year Old Obama  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:17:26am

re: #19 Vicious Babushka

DERP ANTIDOTE

[Embedded content]

George Takei is a fantastic human being.

35 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:17:36am

Rand Paul declares math to be the enemy


Rand Paul: ‘Fire the CBO’ For Finding that Immigration Reform Reduces the Deficit

Sen. Rand Paul says he neither believes nor understands the Congressional Budget Office report which found that the Senate immigration bill would reduce the deficit, mostly through the new revenues that come with an expansion of the tax base.

The Kentucky Republican told conservative talk show host Lars Larson that he doesn’t comprehend the CBO analysts’ math… and therefore they should be fired.

He said that “we ought to fire the CBO” and “go ahead and just get it done” without paying attention to their fancy, elitist math.

36 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:17:47am

re: #24 jaunte

Snowden exposed NSA’s secret plot to do mass surveillance of all the 7 billions people alive in the world TODAY!!
/

37 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:18:12am

re: #28 Kragar

Texas: where its okay to regulate a woman’s vagina and evil to regulate anything else.

Texas: The gun is good. The penis vagina is evil.

Clearly, they’re worshipping Zardoz down San Antone’ Way.

38 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:18:21am

Freedom! Individual rights! Small gubmint!

39 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:18:40am

The woman leading the Texas legislature just said, “We have some people waiting, so I’m gonna do this like a church.”

Exactly.

40 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:19:05am

re: #35 Kragar

Rand only understands math from Heritage. Or AEI or Cato.

41 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:19:25am

re: #36 Bulworth

Snowden exposed NSA’s secret plot to do mass surveillance of all the 7 billions people alive in the world TODAY!!
/

They’ll listen to every conversation in real time and keep the recordings forever.

It must be boring to be the guy who records the NSA agent who is recording the NSA agent who records the NSA agent who…

42 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:19:27am

re: #35 Kragar

Rand Paul declares math to be the enemy


Rand Paul: ‘Fire the CBO’ For Finding that Immigration Reform Reduces the Deficit

2+2 = 4?

GET RID OF HIM!!

43 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:19:50am

Thank god for the mute button on my conference call. This just made my day:

44 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:20:26am

re: #38 Lidane

Freedom! Individual rights! Small gubmint!

[Embedded content]

Stars & bars = FREEDUMB!!!

Rainbow flag = ASSAULT ON MY WAY OF LIFE!!!

45 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:21:33am

re: #43 Lidane

Thank god for the mute button on my conference call. This just made my day:

[Embedded content]

He’s got to prep for 2016.

“1, 2 … JESUS!”
“No sir, its 3.”
“DAMMIT!”

46 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:21:45am

re: #38 Lidane

But banning the gay pride flag would not in any way be anti-gay people; it would really be on behalf of gay people!!

//

47 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:22:40am

Years ago I read a story about a nutty old lady who always dressed up in her Sunday best before settling down to watch her TV. Wish it was still funny.

re: #41 Kragar

They’ll listen to every conversation in real time and keep the recordings forever.

It must be boring to be the guy who records the NSA agent who is recording the NSA agent who records the NSA agent who…

Previously posted: xkcd - Dwarf Fortress

48 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:22:44am

re: #43 Lidane

Thank god for the mute button on my conference call. This just made my day:

[Embedded content]

49 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:22:48am

re: #38 Lidane

Freedom! Individual rights! Small gubmint!

Louisiana Republican Introduces Bill To Ban LGBT Rainbow Flag From Public Property

These are the people who have no trouble with posting crosses, nativity scenes adn the Ten Commandments on public property…

50 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:23:43am
51 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:23:47am

re: #43 Lidane

Thank god for the mute button on my conference call. This just made my day:

[Embedded content]

Don’t worry - they’ll find somebody even worse.

52 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:24:13am

re: #18 Kragar

The funniest thing is Perry thinks this is setting him up to win the election in 2016.

I actually hope he runs — the infighting between Perry and Cruz to prove who’s Texas’s biggest dick will make the Republican nomination fight spectacularly entertaining.

53 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:24:47am

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Texas has a deep bench.

Gohmert, Stockman, Cruz, etc. etc.

54 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:24:58am

re: #43 Lidane

Well he’s in his what, third or fourth term already? I can’t wait to see the next cast of GOP aspirants for the job. /

55 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:25:04am

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Don’t worry - they’ll find somebody even worse.

I think they’re holding auditions right now.

56 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:26:08am

re: #53 jaunte

Texas has a deep bench.

Gohmert, Stockman, Cruz, etc. etc.

I think we should reclassify that as a DERP bench

57 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:26:45am

re: #56 piratedan

I’ll just pitch the straight lines slow down the middle. ;-)

58 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:26:56am

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Don’t worry - they’ll find somebody even worse.

Oh, I don’t doubt it. But the fact that I won’t have to look at Goodhair and his smarmy face and acknowledge him as governor anymore is a good thing.

I’ll take my small victories when I can get them.

59 CriticalDragon1177  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:27:34am

Charles Johnson

Snowden has brought hypocrisy to new heights. Lets see if he can live in Venezuela where he’ll have none of the freedom he claimed to value so much.

60 Blue Point  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:28:54am

Venezuela and Snowden. Perfect match for freedom loving peoples.

61 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:28:55am

Because Goodhair did so well in 2012:


62 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:29:48am
Party has to nominate somebody after all …

Perry can’t ask for a higher recommendation than that.

63 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:30:44am

re: #38 Lidane

Freedom! Individual rights! Small gubmint!

Louisiana lawmaker who wants to ban the pride flag: “The flying of this flag is a poke in the eye of a way of life” t.co
— ThinkProgress (@thinkprogress) July 7, 2013

But it is cool to fly the confederate flag on Louisiana courthouses, got it.

64 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:31:02am

re: #61 Lidane

Cruz too acerbic?

Oh, David.

Feature not a bug, etc.

65 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:32:25am

re: #61 Lidane

Because Goodhair did so well in 2012:

[Embedded content]

Don’t choose the best candidate for the Country, just nominate somebody to put out there. Nice going, Frum.

66 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:32:36am

re: #57 jaunte

just happy I got to be first up to the plate! These change ups from the other posters are a LOT more difficult to square up.

67 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:32:59am

Perry 2016: Because fuck it.

68 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:33:19am
69 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:33:33am

re: #61 Lidane

please proceed Governor

70 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:34:56am

re: #68 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Step 1) Never go on to the Internet.

71 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:35:34am

re: #67 Kragar

72 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:35:35am

Perry 2016

because millard fillmore’s not available

73 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:37:04am

DailyKos Snowden Fan Diary

Meanwhile, DailyKos is in full melt down mode because one commenter dared uttered the truth in a top of the rec. list Snowden fan club post. (though they’ll also claim that the story isn’t about Snowden)

74 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:38:07am

re: #67 Kragar

Strange as it may sound to say this, I just don’t think Perry is crazy enough to satisfy the base anymore. And it’s only 2013. The teabag derp is going to continue to expand exponentially. By 2016, Ted Nugent might not be wacky enough.

75 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:38:54am
76 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:40:32am

re: #74 Bulworth

Strange as it may sound to say this, I just don’t think Perry is crazy enough to satisfy the base anymore. And it’s only 2013. The teabag derp is going to continue to expand exponentially. By 2016, Ted Nugent might not be wacky enough.

Yep, he’d be primaried from the right and called a liberal RINO.

77 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:41:56am

re: #61 Lidane

Because Goodhair did so well in 2012:

Rubio is a dead man walking. Paul is a boutique choice. Christie unloved by base. Cruz too acerbic. So why not Perry?

I really thought he was going to step in and walk away with the nomination. He had the perfect pitch, too: lower taxes, less regualtion and jobs, jobs, jobs. Just the sort of simple, sound byte-friendly message the party wanted to hear.

It took a lot of stupid on his part to blow it against candidates like Cain, Bachmann, Newt, Santorum and the Other Goodhair.

78 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:46:26am

So now Glennlandia is biting the other hand that feeds him?

79 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:46:27am

re: #77 Sol Berdinowitz

I really thought he was going to step in and walk away with the nomination. He had the perfect pitch, too: lower taxes, less regualtion and jobs, jobs, jobs. Just the sort of simple, sound byte-friendly message the party wanted to hear.

It took a lot of stupid on his part to blow it against candidates like Cain, Bachmann, Newt, Santorum and the Other Goodhair.

“He’s a white guy with perfect hair. What could possibly go wrong?”

80 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:47:12am

re: #79 Kragar

“He’s a white guy with perfect hair. What could possibly go wrong?”

It was all going well until Rick Perry opened his pie hole. Heh.

81 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:47:31am

How is it today?

82 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:48:58am

re: #61 Lidane

Because Goodhair did so well in 2012:

[Embedded content]

In Illinois, Goodhairs go to jail.

83 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:49:56am

Wonder how Rick Perry would know this? Hmmm?

Texas Gov Rick Perry to Herman Cain, “How you doing, you big stud?” freakoutnation.com

84 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:50:56am

Walker of Wisconsin is trying to pre-qualify by punching hippy government unions and signing an ultrasound law. He just needs to win the war against voting now. ///

85 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:51:29am

re: #73 b.d.

Awesome, somebody’s posting anti-Obama political cartoons halfway down that thread. No wonder I never stick around Kos.

86 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:52:10am

Would that be the same half of America that are lazy moochers?

87 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:54:17am
88 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:54:36am

re: #86 Lidane

Would that be the same half of America that are lazy moochers?

[Embedded content]

I don’t think bigoted assholes make up half of America.

89 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:55:04am

re: #86 Lidane

Would that be the same half of America that are lazy moochers?

[Embedded content]

I’m so freaking tired of hearing about the “Welfare Parasites”.

Help me out and give me a link or two explaining how this is BS.

90 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:55:45am

re: #87 Gus

Why is Glenn Beck not in a mental hospital somewhere? The man is delusional.

91 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:55:45am
92 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:55:55am

re: #89 FemNaziBitch

I’m so freaking tired of hearing about the “Welfare Parasites”.

Help me out and give me a link or two explaining how this is BS.

The biggest welfare parasites in the US usually have the letters CEO after their names.

93 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:55:59am

re: #89 FemNaziBitch

Do you want a link to the poor or to the wealthy?

94 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:57:51am

re: #86 Lidane

In an interview with Lars Larson, Gallagher said that the court’s pro-marriage equality rulings limit the “democratic rights” of activists who seek to ban same-sex unions and argued that the justices could “not name” where gay and lesbian couples are protected in the Constitution.

Yes, the anti-marriage activists trying to hinder the democratic rights of other people amounts to the anti-marriage activists having their ‘democratic rights’ restricted. Wingnut activists can never be denied or else you are running roughshod over their rights. Other people’s rights aren’t worth diddly squat, apparently.

95 CarleeCork  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:58:10am

re: #90 Dr Lizardo

Why is Glenn Beck not in a mental hospital somewhere? The man is delusional.

He lives in Texas, half the people in our state are delusional.

97 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:58:58am

re: #95 CarleeCork

He lives in Texas, half the people in our state are delusional.

So basically, Texas actually is a mental hospital?

98 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:59:56am

re: #87 Gus

Where the BenghaziIRSAPNSA scandals have failed, the Kerry Boat scandal will succeed in bringing down the Obama admin. /

99 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:00:02pm

re: #93 Justanotherhuman

Do you want a link to the poor or to the wealthy?

I want one that shows the actual numbers or percentages of those on public assistance by state —and if possible research showing the estimated numbers of those who are fraudulent or “just lazy”.

100 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:00:21pm

DERP!
Length of Israel’s border: 1,017 km
Length of USA’s border: 12,034 km

101 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:00:21pm

re: #97 Dr Lizardo

So basically, Texas actually is a mental hospital?

Not really a hospital, more of a holding area.

102 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:00:29pm

CAN YOU HEAR JESUS SPEAKING? IF NOT, YOU MUST BE CRRRRAAAZZZYYY!!

103 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:00:40pm

re: #97 Dr Lizardo

So basically, Texas actually is a mental hospital?

dreams anarchy and theocracy will do that to you.

104 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:01:19pm

re: #85 dragonath

Awesome, somebody’s posting anti-Obama political cartoons halfway down that thread. No wonder I never stick around Kos.

Alas, DailyKos has become one giant anti-Obama political cartoon.

105 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:01:28pm

bbl

106 Ian G.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:02:11pm

re: #50 Gus

On that note, I saw something about Jenny McCarthy joining “The View”. So they had 9/11 truther Rosie O’Donnell, and now they’ll have anti-vaccination nut Jenny McCarthy. What other crackpot conspiracy theories should be represented on that show?

107 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:03:02pm

re: #100 Vicious Babushka

Also, too: building walls to keep out people who bomb buses and buildings is the exact same thing as keeping out people who come over the border for work. //

108 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:03:40pm

re: #89 FemNaziBitch

I’m so freaking tired of hearing about the “Welfare Parasites”.

Help me out and give me a link or two explaining how this is BS.

Walmart executives are the real welfare parasites. Each store costs taxpayers $900,000 EVEN IF YOU NEVER SHOP THERE!

109 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:04:12pm

re: #106 Ian G.

Obviously they still need a birther. /

110 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:05:08pm

DERP

111 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:05:19pm

re: #106 Ian G.

I’d rather have a lobotomy than willfully watch The View.

112 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:05:33pm

re: #100 Vicious Babushka

So government, otherwise incompetent to deliver healthcare and other important services, will competently build a superlong fence that will competently keep people out. /

113 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:06:05pm

re: #112 Bulworth

So government, otherwise incompetent to deliver healthcare and other important services, will competently build a superlong fence that will competently keep people out. /

Yes.
/

114 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:06:07pm

re: #100 Vicious Babushka

DERP!
Length of Israel’s border: 1,017 km
Length of USA’s border: 12,034 km

[Embedded content]

Israel also gets 3 billion a year from the US. Plus they have mandatory military service.

115 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:06:24pm

re: #106 Ian G.

On that note, I saw something about Jenny McCarthy joining “The View”. So they had 9/11 truther Rosie O’Donnell, and now they’ll have anti-vaccination nut Jenny McCarthy. What other crackpot conspiracy theories should be represented on that show?

A Moon-landing denier; I know one in Germany, but it’s a ‘he’, so I don’t know if he’d fit in on “The View”.

116 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:06:38pm

re: #100 Vicious Babushka

Israel was unable to shut down the Philadelphi corridor of its smuggling tunnels, and that’s despite repeated use of aerial bombings, ground operations, and ever more sophisticated tech.

The Philadelphi corridor separates Gaza from Sinai. It’s all of 14 miles long.

The Egyptian government is now responsible for security for that border, and they too have found it impossible to shut down the illegal crossings and smuggling tunnels.

Israel, however, has had more success in securing its borders with Jordan, and to a lesser extent Lebanon and Syria. Of course, you’d have to discount the kassams and mortars, and need to install Iron Dome.

117 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:06:52pm

re: #114 Iwouldprefernotto

And allow gays in the military, too.

118 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:07:46pm

re: #110 Vicious Babushka

DERP

[Embedded content]

Is that the video they were going to show at the convention.

Sigh. How dated.

119 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:08:54pm

re: #100 Vicious Babushka

And building such a fence here would be free. Amazing how concerns about the DEBTDEFICIT just disappear whenever wingnuts want to spend money on something. /

120 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:09:19pm

re: #106 Ian G.

On that note, I saw something about Jenny McCarthy joining “The View”. So they had 9/11 truther Rosie O’Donnell, and now they’ll have anti-vaccination nut Jenny McCarthy. What other crackpot conspiracy theories should be represented on that show?

Isn’t there a Mrs. Alex Jones somewhere? She’d be perfect for that show.

121 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:09:58pm

re: #120 b.d.

Isn’t there a Mrs. Alex Jones somewhere? She’d be perfect for that show.

Alex in drag.

122 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:10:15pm

re: #118 b.d.

Obviously Issa needs to hold a hearing to investigate this ‘scandal’.

Darrell Issa. That’s a name I haven’t heard in a few weeks.

123 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:10:34pm

Been reading/listening to Neal Stephenson’s Cryptonomicon.

Mr. Stephenson does not disappoint.

124 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:10:56pm

Oh, speaking of Teh Derping Donald™, here’s something from the Nelson-HA-HA files:

Donald Trump sued over failed Florida deal

US tycoon Donald Trump faces questions over a failed property development in Florida where investors are suing him and others for nearly $8m (£5.4m).

Investor Marc Renaud thought he was buying into the Trump brand.

“I was absolutely shocked,” he said.

“I bought a Donald Trump elegant condo, I bought prestige, I bought the Rolls Royce only to find out that ‘Rolls Royce’ was just a little sticker.”

Florida lawyer Joseph Altschul is representing 75 purchasers of 53 units in the project that was to be known as the Trump International Hotel and Plaza, Fort Lauderdale.

125 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:11:19pm

“3) Three-quarters of entitlement benefits written into law in the United States go toward the elderly or disabled. That’s according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. And a big chunk of the rest goes to working households. Only about 9 percent of all entitlement benefits go toward non-elderly, non-disabled households without jobs (and much of that involves health care and unemployment insurance)”

“4) The bulk of entitlement program spending goes toward the middle class. By “entitlements,” CBPP is including Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, children’s health insurance, food stamps, school lunch programs, welfare, unemployment insurance, the Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Tax Credit. It does not include a few discretionary programs (like rental assistance or low-income energy subsidies) which are aimed more directly at the poor. Those programs, however, are a lot smaller in comparison.”
washingtonpost.com

First of all, SS and Medicare are not entitlements—people pay into those. Secondly, the criteria for middle class is a lot of BS: if you make the “average” household income of around $53K/yr as a couple in this economy and have any kids at all, disaster is just a job loss away. Most Americans are not middle class as I grew up thinking about it—the professional, merchant, and managerial classes, not the schlubs who worked for someone at an hourly wage—those are working class, a designation no one even discusses any more because it sounds too much like labor even if you sit at a desk all day and don’t get your hands dirty.

126 Weet  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:14:04pm

re: #95 CarleeCork

He lives in Texas, half the people in our state are delusional.

It’s not quite that bad.
Perry received 2,733,784 votes in 2010. There are 18,789,238 people of voting age living here.

So, that’s 14.5%. Our biggest problem is that people don’t vote. Only 26% of the voting age population voted in 2010.

127 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:14:50pm
128 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:15:02pm

re: #125 Justanotherhuman

“3) Three-quarters of entitlement benefits written into law in the United States go toward the elderly or disabled. That’s according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. And a big chunk of the rest goes to working households. Only about 9 percent of all entitlement benefits go toward non-elderly, non-disabled households without jobs (and much of that involves health care and unemployment insurance)”

“4) The bulk of entitlement program spending goes toward the middle class. By “entitlements,” CBPP is including Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, children’s health insurance, food stamps, school lunch programs, welfare, unemployment insurance, the Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Tax Credit. It does not include a few discretionary programs (like rental assistance or low-income energy subsidies) which are aimed more directly at the poor. Those programs, however, are a lot smaller in comparison.”
washingtonpost.com

First of all, SS and Medicare are not entitlements—people pay into those. Secondly, the criteria for middle class is a lot of BS: if you make the “average” household income of around $53K/yr as a couple in this economy and have any kids at all, disaster is just a job loss away. Most Americans are not middle class as I grew up thinking about it—the professional, merchant, and managerial classes, not the schlubs who worked for someone at an hourly wage—those are working class, a designation no one even discusses any more because it sounds too much like labor even if you sit at a desk all day and don’t get your hands dirty.

I like the article, nonetheless.

Thank you!

129 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:15:17pm

re: #100 Vicious Babushka


130 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:15:41pm

re: #126 Weet

It’s not quite that bad.
Perry received 2,733,784 votes in 2010. There are 18,789,238 people of voting age living here.

So, that’s 14.5%. Our biggest problem is that people don’t vote. Only 26% of the voting age population voted in 2010.

That’s the same reason that we in Kentucky got stuck with Rand Paul…and how the Turtle keeps getting re-elected.

131 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:16:37pm

I think if Heywood got a blow job he might calm down.

132 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:17:02pm

re: #127 Charles Johnson

Big sigh.

littlegreenfootballs.com

I see that spelling is still not his friend…

133 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:17:06pm

re: #127 Charles Johnson

But… but… the ends justify the means!

134 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:17:32pm

re: #125 Justanotherhuman

First of all, SS and Medicare are not entitlements—people pay into those. Secondly, the criteria for middle class is a lot of BS: if you make the “average” household income of around $53K/yr as a couple in this economy and have any kids at all, disaster is just a job loss away. Most Americans are not middle class as I grew up thinking about it—the professional, merchant, and managerial classes, not the schlubs who worked for someone at an hourly wage—those are working class, a designation no one even discusses any more because it sounds too much like labor even if you sit at a desk all day and don’t get your hands dirty.

I think we’ve gotten to the point where the Marxist terms apply. They bourgeoisie is virtually non-existent.

135 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:17:55pm

re: #131 Vicious Babushka

I think if Heywood got a blow job he might calm down.

Youtube Video

136 Ming  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:19:50pm

re: #38 Lidane

Freedom! Individual rights! Small gubmint!

[Embedded content]

Ah yes, Louisiana. With all the attention on Rick Perry and Rand Paul, Bobby Jindal must be feeling left out. We may get another “test-marketing the crazy for my run in 2016” speech from him this summer.

137 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:20:57pm

re: #127 Charles Johnson

btw, ty for the upticks there in that thread :-)

138 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:21:06pm

re: #73 b.d.

DailyKos Snowden Fan Diary

Meanwhile, DailyKos is in full melt down mode because one commenter dared uttered the truth in a top of the rec. list Snowden fan club post. (though they’ll also claim that the story isn’t about Snowden)

I think DK has had a big influx of Libertarians and Wingnut trolls since this Snowden thing started their membership has increased.

140 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:23:19pm

re: #138 Tigger2

not to mention the exponential creation of accounts by GG’s sockpuppets, his honor must not be sullied….

141 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:25:17pm

re: #139 FemNaziBitch

And aren’t you special? Still, I have to stand with the people who don’t murder doctors.

Anti-choicers are terrorists, plain and simple.

142 Ian G.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:25:45pm

re: #124 Interesting Times

Oh, speaking of Teh Derping DonaldTM, here’s something from the Nelson-HA-HA files:

Donald Trump sued over failed Florida deal

You know, I feel like if you’re dumb enough to buy into the “Trump Brand”, you deserve what you get.

143 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:25:57pm

re: #134 FemNaziBitch

I think we’ve gotten to the point where the Marxist terms apply. They bourgeoisie is virtually non-existent.

I had to think about that one; I was thinking the Tea Partiers represented the bourgeoisie, but actually, they’d be more like the petite bourgeoisie. So in the classical (Marxist) meaning, yes, the bourgeoisie has dwindled to virtually nothing.

144 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:28:17pm

re: #125 Justanotherhuman

First of all, SS and Medicare are not entitlements—people pay into those.

Actually, that’s why they’re entitlements: You pay into them all your working life, so you’re entitled to them.

Somewhere along the line, the word ‘entitled’ went from having one or two definitions with negative connotations to being just out-and-out a bad word.

145 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:30:30pm

I think the little fucker isn’t just a thief, but also a liar. He’s making shit up now and because he’s Edward Fucking Snowden and must be believed, it’s twoo! It’s all TWOO!

146 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:30:48pm

re: #144 GeneJockey

Actually, that’s why they’re entitlements: You pay into them all your working life, so you’re entitled to them.

Somewhere along the line, the word ‘entitled’ went from having one or two definitions with negative connotations to being just out-and-out a bad word.

Exactly, the “entitlement” society…

My mother was also entitled to a widow’s pension from US Steel in 1967, which they screwed her out of. Had it not been for Social Security, we would’ve been turned out on the street.

She later found out about a class action suit and receieved a small settlement, but it was a patch on the money we needed back then.

And it totally ruined my faith in the Captains of Industry to do anything but generate profits.

147 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:30:56pm

re: #143 Dr Lizardo

I had to think about that one; I was thinking the Tea Partiers represented the bourgeoisie, but actually, they’d be more like the petite bourgeoisie. So in the classical (Marxist) meaning, yes, the bourgeoisie has dwindled to virtually nothing.

I tend to think that the Tea Partiers are Babbitts. They kiss up to the rich and powerful in the belief that the rich and powerful will like them when, in fact, the rich and powerful have the same disdain for them as they have for the working class and poor.

148 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:31:07pm

re: #144 GeneJockey

Somewhere along the line, the word ‘entitled’ went from having one or two definitions with negative connotations to being just out-and-out a bad word.

That’s why earned benefits is a better term to use nowadays.

149 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:32:25pm

re: #148 Interesting Times

That’s why earned benefits is a better term to use nowadays.

I refuse to give in to semantic terrorism!!
//

150 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:32:43pm

re: #142 Ian G.

The Trump Brand. Made in China.

Because that’s how he rolls.

151 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:33:18pm

re: #148 Interesting Times

That’s why earned benefits is a better term to use nowadays.

Really it’s “paid-for” benefits as the benefits are insurance (of a type) for which one has paid the premium …

to my way of thinking anyway.

152 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:33:19pm

re: #143 Dr Lizardo

Now they just go after your 401k, too.

153 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:33:26pm

re: #145 darthstar

I think the little fucker isn’t just a thief, but also a liar. He’s making shit up now and because he’s Edward Fucking Snowden and must be believed, it’s twoo! It’s all TWOO!

[Embedded content]

We need the scoop on Area 51, the moon landing and the 2nd gunman Mr. Snowden.

You really wanna be a hero, come up with that stuff.

:P

/

154 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:33:54pm

re: #150 lawhawk

The Trump Brand. Made in China.

Because that’s how he rolls.

Jesus. That man lead the GOP field for a month or more.

155 Ming  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:33:58pm

re: #90 Dr Lizardo

Why is Glenn Beck not in a mental hospital somewhere? The man is delusional.

With Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, you can see the mental illness screaming right out from the TV screen. Year after year after year. The entire world must have concerns about our country, where these people are still taken seriously.

156 MikeTheModerateDemocrat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:34:37pm

Nice to see the kooky leftists impeding democrats’ success again. I really missed the 1980s (and that brief period in November 2000). That “winning” stuff was getting old anyway.

157 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:36:50pm

re: #155 Ming

With Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, you can see the mental illness screaming right out from the TV screen. Year after year after year. The entire world must have concerns about our country, where these people are still taken seriously.

Two words: Michelle Bachmann

158 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:36:54pm
159 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:37:08pm
Asked whether the NSA collaborates with Israel, Snowden said: “Yes, all the time. The NSA has a large section for that, called the FAD - Foreign Affairs Directorate.” When asked specifically about Stuxnet, Snowden confirmed: “The NSA and Israel wrote Stuxnet together.”

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THEY REALLY ARE TAKING HIS WORD FOR THIS?

160 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:37:27pm

re: #147 Backwoods_Sleuth

I tend to think that the Tea Partiers are Babbitts. They kiss up to the rich and powerful in the belief that the rich and powerful will like them when, in fact, the rich and powerful have the same disdain for them as they have for the working class and poor.

I look at the Tea Partier view of the rich as being much the same as the ancient Greeks view of their gods - omnipotent, capricious, and in need of constant fellation worship lest they turn on us.

161 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:37:49pm

re: #144 GeneJockey

Just another word hijacked by the RWNJs—they are genius at doublethink.

162 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:38:39pm

re: #161 Justanotherhuman

Just another word hijacked by the RWNJs—they are genius at doublethink.

And yet they have real difficulty with singlethink.
//

163 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:40:05pm

re: #141 Kragar

But, but, but, but

Neither do allegations against the Houston abortion doctor Douglas Karpen seem to have changed hearts and minds on the most intractable issue in American politics. Karpen runs three clinics where ex-employees said they’d witnessed him doing what Gosnell did, killing babies who had been born alive. In Delaware recently, nurses testified that their former employer, Planned Parenthood of Delaware, routinely put women’s health at risk by rushing procedures to maximize profits, using untrained staff, and neglecting medical standards. Yet any desire to regulate this industry can only come from some deep hatred of womankind?

I see. So these rumors are apparently justification enough to regulate the hell out of clinics that provide abortions, among other services for women, but as we know, there is no mass body count high enough, even if the bodies are children, to pass any gun regulation. /

164 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:41:07pm

re: #160 GeneJockey

I look at the Tea Partier view of the rich as being much the same as the ancient Greeks view of their gods - omnipotent, capricious, and in need of constant fellation worship lest they turn on us.

I’ll go with Dr. Lizardo —petit bourgeois. They are scared shitless of becoming part of the proletariat. They know they are one paycheck away from it.

We are all workers now. Any delusions that window dressings make us something else is —well, what makes one a tool.

165 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:41:11pm

re: #160 GeneJockey

I look at the Tea Partier view of the rich as being much the same as the ancient Greeks view of their gods - omnipotent, capricious, and in need of constant fellation worship lest they turn on us.

And just like the gods wouldn’t invite the ancient hoi polloi Greeks to Olympus, neither will the tea party be invited to join the elite country clubs or any of the really cool parties…

166 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:42:12pm
167 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:42:15pm

re: #159 darthstar

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THEY REALLY ARE TAKING HIS WORD FOR THIS?

He’s just pulling stuff out of his ass now.

168 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:43:01pm

re: #167 b.d.

He’s just pulling stuff out of his ass now.

And it’s being reported as fucking fact. Fucking idiots.

169 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:43:08pm

re: #167 b.d.

He’s just pulling stuff out of his ass now.

What do you mean “now”?

170 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:43:11pm

re: #165 Backwoods_Sleuth

Instead, they get those open air rallies that no one attends…

171 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:43:25pm

re: #163 Bulworth

But, but, but, but

I see. So these rumors are apparently justification enough to regulate the hell out of clinics that provide abortions, among other services for women, but as we know, there is no mass body count high enough, even if the bodies are children, to pass any gun regulation. /

They offer one or two examples, but no statistics.

Eye Witness testimony of former employees, but no evidence.

Show me the body. Show me that this is the norm. SHOW ME WHERE PLANNED PARENTHOOD IS INVOLVED IN CRIME.

172 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:43:27pm

Can we invent a TARDIS and send this guy back to the Paleolithic era?

173 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:44:05pm

re: #141 Kragar

And remember when 90% of Americans backed the federal background check at gunshows legislation? Yeah, the wingnuts/NRA really cared about public opinion there. /

174 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:45:13pm
175 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:45:46pm

re: #171 FemNaziBitch

And this was really convincing

In Delaware recently, nurses testified that their former employer, Planned Parenthood of Delaware, routinely put women’s health at risk by rushing procedures to maximize profits, using untrained staff, and neglecting medical standards.

TESTIFIED!!!!! PROOF!!!!!!!
REGULATE NOW!!!!!!!

//

176 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:46:09pm

re: #169 Kragar

What do you mean “now”?

I stand corrected.

Snowden is being used to clean up the cold case files.

177 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:46:50pm

WATCH THE VIDEO

Frankly, IMHO, any GOP politician who isn’t scared shitless by this is deluded.

178 b.d.  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:47:18pm

re: #174 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Snowden: Larry Sinclair was telling the truth!

//

179 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:49:16pm

re: #164 FemNaziBitch

I’ll go with Dr. Lizardo —petit bourgeois. They are scared shitless of becoming part of the proletariat. They know they are one paycheck away from it.

I think that fear is the driver, because they see it happening all around them, and because of their belief that the Free Market gives people what they deserve, they have to either believe the folks who fall out of the middle class deserved it, or that it was taken from them by that very proletariat they fear becoming part of.

Because of their view of the rich as the Source Of All Good Things, they can’t accept the idea that rich people are getting richer by investing in, or outright DOING, the very things that are putting the middle class in peril.

This is the problem with Faith-Based Economics - it doesn’t work, and because it’s faith-based, the adherents can’t give it up when reality differs.

180 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:49:35pm
181 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:50:43pm

re: #179 GeneJockey

I think that fear is the driver, because they see it happening all around them, and because of their belief that the Free Market gives people what they deserve, they have to either believe the folks who fall out of the middle class deserved it, or that it was taken from them by that very proletariat they fear becoming part of.

Because of their view of the rich as the Source Of All Good Things, they can’t accept the idea that rich people are getting richer by investing in, or outright DOING, the very things that are putting the middle class in peril.

This is the problem with Faith-Based Economics - it doesn’t work, and because it’s faith-based, the adherents can’t give it up when reality differs.

Faith-Based Economics —I LOVE IT!

“I thank St. Ronald Reagan, from which all good things come”

182 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:51:37pm

re: #164 FemNaziBitch

I’ll go with Dr. Lizardo —petit bourgeois. They are scared shitless of becoming part of the proletariat. They know they are one paycheck away from it.

We are all workers now. Any delusions that window dressings make us something else is —well, what makes one a tool.

Many of the petit bourgeoisie started off as proletarians, and the last thing they want is to be pushed back into that class. My observation is that the petit bourgeoisie are often the most reactionary class as well, for a variety of reasons - they are also the most easily misled and politically naïve.

183 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:51:59pm

re: #159 darthstar

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THEY REALLY ARE TAKING HIS WORD FOR THIS?

re: #167 b.d.

He’s just pulling stuff out of his ass now.

To both of you, not necessarily:
The Stuxnet Leaker Might Be the General Credited with Getting it Started - The Atlantic Wire - Abby Ohlheiser June 27, 2013

The Obama administration’s investigation into the leak of classified information on Stuxnet, a U.S. cyberattack targeting Iran’s nuclear programs, has zeroed in on retired Marine General James Cartwright. As in, the general credited with presenting the idea of Stuxnet to the White House in the first place.

184 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:53:39pm

re: #182 Dr Lizardo

Many of the petit bourgeoisie started off as proletarians, and the last thing they want is to be pushed back into that class. My observation is that the petit bourgeoisie are often the most reactionary class as well, for a variety of reasons - they are also the most easily misled and politically naïve.

These days I think the only thing that distinguishes the petit bourgeoisie is a minivan and soccer mom.

It’s a category in “name only”.

It doesn’t exist. IMHO

185 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 12:58:43pm

re: #184 FemNaziBitch

These days I think the only thing that distinguishes the petit bourgeoisie is a minivan and soccer mom.

It’s a category in “name only”.

It doesn’t exist. IMHO

Small business owners could technically still be considered petit bourgeoisie; they have some access to the means of production, but they lack the totality of capital to actually control it. They can hire from the proletariat, but they cannot compete against the haute bourgeoisie - the capitalist class.

The petit bourgeoisie becomes radicalized when they feel they’re being pushed back into the ranks of the working class from which they came.

186 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:02:59pm

re: #185 Dr Lizardo

Small business owners could technically still be considered petit bourgeoisie; they have some access to the means of production, but they lack the totality of capital to actually control it. They can hire from the proletariat, but they cannot compete against the haute bourgeoisie - the capitalist class.

The petit bourgeoisie becomes radicalized when they feel they’re being pushed back into the ranks of the working class from which they came.

yup!

I think the definitions get a little fuzzy —small business owners often work more than the working class. Owning business these days (when one can’t afford to hire an employee) means working 24/7. There are no 8 hour shifts.

With all the paperwork BS, responsibility and stress that is piled-on by “the system” many find it easier to close-shop and get a job.

This is one aspect that I think really sucks.

187 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:04:20pm

re: #181 FemNaziBitch

Faith-Based Economics —I LOVE IT!

“I thank St. Ronald Reagan, from which all good things come”

I think that Free Market Fundamentalism is a form of religion: It involves magical forces, it metes out rewards and punishments for good and bad behavior, and it gives its adherents a reason to hate other people.

188 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:06:28pm

re: #187 GeneJockey

I think that Free Market Fundamentalism is a form of religion: It involves magical forces, it metes out rewards and punishments for good and bad behavior, and it gives its adherents a reason to hate other people.

I think not just magical, but demoniacal forces “magic hand” and all.

Just too creepy for me.

189 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:08:17pm

re: #187 GeneJockey

I think that Free Market Fundamentalism is a form of religion: It involves magical forces, it metes out rewards and punishments for good and bad behavior, and it gives its adherents a reason to hate other people.

I am also drawn to the book, DEBT , that someone here recommended. The author is controversial, but much of what he said (equating economics with religion) rings true.

190 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:08:21pm

re: #186 FemNaziBitch

yup!

I think the definitions get a little fuzzy —small business owners often work more than the working class. Owning business these days (when one can’t afford to hire an employee) means working 24/7. There are no 8 hour shifts.

With all the paperwork BS, responsibility and stress that is piled-on by “the system” many find it easier to close-shop and get a job.

This is one aspect that I think really sucks.

It is unfortunate, actually; in many case, it’s far simpler to just find a 9-5 job and call it a day. If I were going to run a shop, it would be a sole proprietorship - just me. Makes life easier. Maybe a little bookshop or something like that.

191 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:09:35pm

re: #190 Dr Lizardo

It is unfortunate, actually; in many case, it’s far simpler to just find a 9-5 job and call it a day. If I were going to run a shop, it would be a sole proprietorship - just me. Makes life easier. Maybe a little bookshop or something like that.

A bookshop is a great tax haven, IIRC. No profit —just write-off. Fun times.

I’ll manage it for you. Could even do a little book repair if customer’s want it.

192 Dr Lizardo  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:12:29pm

Here in the Czech Republic, as an English teacher, I’m considered self-employed. I have a živnostenský list - a business license - and I’m responsible for my own taxes, health insurance, etc. The only pain in the butt is taxes, but there’s a tax accountant I go to for that. Lots of write-offs, so not too bad, and health insurance is cheap enough; $50 a month for private insurance.


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A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
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2 hours ago
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