In New Interview, Edward Snowden Doubles Down on “Direct Access” Allegation

Snowden says the NSA is tracking every lolcat you send to your grandmother
World • Views: 29,266

Today the Guardian released another section of the video interview with Edward Snowden, conducted by Glenn Greenwald and activist Laura Poitras. In this episode of Life With Edward, he doesn’t just double down on the claim that NSA has “direct access” to all the information of every top technology company, he goes into great detail:

We’ve got PRISM, which is a demonstration how the U.S. government co-ops U.S. corporate power to its own ends. Companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft — they all get together with the NSA and provide the NSA with direct access to the backends to all of the systems you use to communicate, to store your data, to put things in the cloud, and even just to send birthday wishes and keep a record of your life.

And they give the NSA direct access so that they don’t need to oversee so they can’t be held liable for it. I think that’s a dangerous capability for anybody to have, but particularly an organization that’s demonstrated time and time against that they’ll work to shield themselves from oversight.

All of the companies named in those Powerpoint slides (Google, Facebook, Skype, Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple, etc.) have denied this allegation from the start.

I remain highly skeptical that all these major corporations would lie in unison, when their very existence depends on the trust of the people who use their products and services. If Snowden’s claims turned out to be true, and were verified, they’d be risking a massive consumer backlash the likes of which the world has never seen. All of them. In unison.

I’m not saying it’s totally impossible, but this is why the concept of Occam’s Razor exists, and this is my skeptical face. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and Edward Snowden has already demonstrated — graphically — that he will lie to promote his own claims.

Jump to bottom

1038 comments
1 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:55:46pm

The NSA is probably saving this very comment as I type it.

2 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:56:54pm

Are you going to trust the government and multiple business leaders or one slacker who hasn’t proven a damn thing?

Don’t answer that.

3 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:57:38pm

So how did he discuss things with Greenwald before the story was released?

Internet? Telephone? I don’t think I’m going to buy pen and paper…

4 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:58:59pm

I’m pretty sure the NSA and its processing power have better things to do than keep a record of my online life.

5 Cardio (formerly JRCMYP)  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:59:09pm

I think he’s Kra-Kray. Someone needs to photoshop him with a tinfoil hat.

6 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:59:12pm

what you’re really talking about is the full extent of human communication!!!!!!

7 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:59:18pm

First they came for the lolcats, but I was not a lolcat….

8 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 5:59:54pm

re: #4 Varek Raith

I’m pretty sure the NSA and its processing power have better things to do than keep a record of my online life.

I would hope so
/

9 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:00:29pm

Just for the NSA:

I heard the unmistakable sounds of a hairball in progress far too late to make sure the cat was on a solid floor. Anyone want to put bets on whether they were on the carpet? (I haven’t gone to look yet.)

10 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:00:47pm

If what Snowden says is true, the NSA is the largest archive of porn in existence.

11 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:01:10pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

If what Snowden says is true, the NSA is the largest archive of porn in existence.

And they’d never have to pay for any of it.

12 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:02:08pm

re: #9 klys

I have no doubt that your cat did it on the carpet. NSA is hedging.

13 GeneJockey  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:02:33pm

re: #9 klys

Just for the NSA:

I heard the unmistakable sounds of a hairball in progress far too late to make sure the cat was on a solid floor. Anyone want to put bets on whether they were on the carpet? (I haven’t gone to look yet.)

I got $3 says it was on your pillow.

14 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:02:41pm
15 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:02:45pm

These people are nihilists, Donny.

16 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:04:10pm

He also said he could tap the PotUS’s phone.
Yeppers.
Totally credible.

17 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:04:25pm

re: #11 klys

And they’d never have to pay for any of it.

It usedre: #10 Varek Raith

If what Snowden says is true, the NSA is the largest archive of porn in existence.

It used to be the Vatican had the largest porn collection.

18 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:04:28pm

How much does Snowden have to say before most people realize he’s full of shit?

19 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:04:36pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

These people are nihilists, Donny.

I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude…

20 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:05:11pm

re: #16 Varek Raith

He also said he could tap the PotUS’s phone.
Yeppers.
Totally credible.

Pfft, it’s not like anyone monitors that line for potential tapping.

///

21 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:05:32pm

re: #18 Justanotherhuman

There’s a wide variation in quality of shit-detectors.

22 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:05:56pm

“Man was matter, that was Snowden’s secret. Drop him out a window, and he’ll fall. Set fire to him and he’ll burn. Bury him and he’ll rot, like other kinds of garbage. The spirit gone, man is garbage. That was Snowden’s secret. Ripeness was all.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

23 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:06:46pm

I could not listen to more than 30 seconds of that whiny bitchy little voice.

HOW DID THAT FUCKBALL GET A $62/HR JOB WITH BOOZ ALLEN

That is the Great Unanswered Question.

24 gummitch  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:07:01pm

You could save a lot of bandwidth by posting once each day: Edward Snowden is a bald-faced attention-seeking liar.

25 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:07:13pm

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

I could not listen to more than 30 seconds of that whiny bitchy little voice.

HOW DID THAT FUCKBALL GET A $62/HR JOB WITH BOOZ ALLEN

That is the Great Unanswered Question.

Daddy.

26 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:07:18pm

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

I could not listen to more than 30 seconds of that whiny bitchy little voice.

HOW DID THAT FUCKBALL GET A $62/HR JOB WITH BOOZ ALLEN

That is the Great Unanswered Question.

Family connections.

27 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:09:25pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

No wonder Daddy is defending him so vigorously.

28 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:09:47pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

Family connections.

Tell me again how private contractors are more efficient.

29 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:10:51pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

If what Snowden says is true, the NSA is the largest archive of porn in existence.

Just the digital shit. You know who keeps the incunabula.

30 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:11:27pm

re: #21 jaunte

Yeah, well mine was on the minute I first heard his BS.

31 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:11:29pm

“Give Me A Blowjob!” has swept the bottom comments. I haven’t seen that since Destro got the heave ho.

32 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:12:03pm

Funny as hell if the greatest punishment meted on Snowden comes from the Internet giants—lawsuits and denial of service.

33 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:12:15pm

re: #25 Kragar

Daddy.

Investigate Daddy.

34 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:12:31pm

re: #9 klys

Just for the NSA:

I heard the unmistakable sounds of a hairball in progress far too late to make sure the cat was on a solid floor. Anyone want to put bets on whether they were on the carpet? (I haven’t gone to look yet.)

I will spare you all the photo evidence, but why have a hairball on an easy to clean linoleum floor when there’s a nice, fluffy carpet right there?

35 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:14:44pm

Fox News contributor blames contraception mandate on ‘extraordinary creeping paganism’

Pagans and uppity feminists are responsible for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ 2012 contraceptive rule, according to Fox News contributor Liz Trotta.

In a Sunday speech on Fox News attacking the Affordable Care Act, Trotta described the so-called contraception mandate as a “brazen violation of the separation between church and state.”

The HHS mandate requires employers to provide health insurance plans that cover FDA-approved contraceptive drugs and devices at no cost. Catholic officials have said the regulation violates the religious freedom of business owners who have moral objections to the use of contraception.

36 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:15:08pm

re: #33 Vicious Babushka

Investigate Daddy.

OK, though that kind of makes Snowden like Jack Kennedy.

In a not-good way.

37 twisty  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:15:25pm

The fact that anyone on the left worships this dude is the saddest thing, or did they miss the insane junk he spouted about Social Security.

38 122 Year Old Obama  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:15:31pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

If what Snowden says is true, the NSA is the largest archive of porn in existence.

Oh my god, THEY KNOW WHAT I DRAW

/////////////

39 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:15:53pm

re: #34 klys

I will spare you all the photo evidence, but why have a hairball on an easy to clean linoleum floor when there’s a nice, fluffy carpet right there?

Let the cat hair build up on the carpet and it forms a protective layer.

40 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:16:26pm

re: #35 Kragar

That is truly awesome. It’s performance art.
Maximalism?

41 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:18:58pm

re: #37 twisty

The fact that anyone on the left worships this dude is the saddest thing, or did they miss the insane junk he spouted about Social Security.

Those who follow Snowden either haven’t about his hate of Social Security or they ignore it because he fills their need to hate on US intelligence agencies.

42 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:19:07pm

re: #37 twisty

The fact that anyone on the left worships this dude is the saddest thing, or did they miss the insane junk he spouted about Social Security.

Paul Ryan didn’t miss that insane junk, he wants to make it the law.

43 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:19:47pm

Lon Snowden lived on your taxes for 30 years in the Coast Guard. He never had it so good.

On-the-Lam Leaker Gets Letter from Lon: Elder Snowden Writes to Son vanityfair.com

Referred to his son as “a modern day Paul Revere: summoning the American people to confront the growing danger of tyranny and one branch government …”

One branch? Really? Which one would that be?

44 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:21:55pm

re: #43 Justanotherhuman

Lon Snowden lived on your taxes for 30 years in the Coast Guard. He never had it so good.

On-the-Lam Leaker Gets Letter from Lon: Elder Snowden Writes to Son vanityfair.com

Referred to his son as “a modern day Paul Revere: summoning the American people to confront the growing danger of tyranny and one branch government …”

One branch? Really? Which one would that be?

Nutballs in Congress holding the nation hostage, obviously.
/

45 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:22:47pm

re: #43 Justanotherhuman

According to ABC News, following Lon Snowden’s NBC News interview last week, Lon’s lawyer “received a call Saturday … from Wikileaks founder and publisher Julian Assange. In it, Assange purported to deliver a message from son to father asking that elder Snowden keep quiet.”

Heh.

46 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:25:05pm

re: #35 Kragar

Fox News contributor blames contraception mandate on ‘extraordinary creeping paganism’

The whole fuckn’ Department of Defense violates the “separation between church and state” in the view of Amish and Quaker taxpayers. Get over it.

47 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:26:00pm

re: #42 Vicious Babushka

Paul Ryan didn’t miss that insane junk, he wants to make it the law.

Not factually correct. Paul Ryan’s proposals have pertained to Medicare. He has not advanced a proposal for Social Security reform.

Snowden and Ryan have focused on different programs funded from different sources.

48 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:27:20pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Eliminating SS would be in Ryan’s next 5 yr plan.

49 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:27:37pm

re: #35 Kragar

And these people have cared about the Establisment Clause since….well, when the hell did they care about it?

50 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:27:47pm

This is the CREEPIEST thing that I have seen all day:

51 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:28:03pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not factually correct. Paul Ryan’s proposals have pertained to Medicare. He has not advanced a proposal for Social Security reform.

Snowden and Ryan have focused on different programs funded from different sources.

This should not be read to equate Paul Ryan and Edward Snowden. Whatever else is true, Paul Ryan has not handed intelligence data to our enemies and Edward Snowden has.

52 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:28:10pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not factually correct. Paul Ryan’s proposals have pertained to Medicare. He has not advanced a proposal for Social Security reform.

Snowden and Ryan have focused on different programs funded from different sources.

Do you really want me to believe that Ryan wouldn’t F with social security?

53 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:28:29pm
54 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:28:58pm

re: #49 Kid Hail Satan

And these people have cared about the Establisment Clause since….well, when the hell did they care about it?

Since people realized their opinion was worth less that a bucket of spit.

55 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:29:29pm

re: #48 Justanotherhuman

Eliminating SS would be in Ryan’s next 5 yr plan.

1. Why did you use the somewhat loaded term ‘5 year plan’?

2. Present evidence to support your contention.

56 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:30:15pm

re: #50 Vicious Babushka

I won’t even bother letting that eliminate the remaining brain cells alcohol has left to kill.

57 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:30:41pm

Birth control, like gay marriage, means no heterosexual couple will be able to conceive children ever again.
/

58 Heywood Jabloeme  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:31:04pm

Maybe we should all send a tweet and see if Dick Costolo, the CEO of Twitter, can’t answer questions regarding US Govt Domestic Spying. I mean, Twitter is a fairly influential US Company and he must have the resources to get any legal help that he might need if he were to break the law.

The CEO of a leading American company isn’t legally permitted to say if he’s been approached with government requests for information on Americans that he regards as abusive. In fact, he’d be perfectly free to say, “I’ve never gotten any abusive requests from the government.” But if certain kinds of abusive requests occurred he’d be barred from revealing them. He is left to squirm under questioning, because to tell the truth would imperil his freedom.

Link

If you are skeptical of the author’s characterization of Costolo’s reaction you can watch the video yourself at the link.

59 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:31:33pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not factually correct. Paul Ryan’s proposals have pertained to Medicare. He has not advanced a proposal for Social Security reform.

Snowden and Ryan have focused on different programs funded from different sources.

Have you seen the new commercials enlisting seniors against Medicare fraud?

60 compound_Idaho  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:33:25pm

re: #35 Kragar

Fox News contributor blames contraception mandate on ‘extraordinary creeping paganism’

I still think it would be nice for the exchanges to offer plans that exclude the low dollar stuff. My plan is grandfathered in for the time being. I am very happy about that. Unfortunately, we no longer have a say. It is up to HHS.

61 compound_Idaho  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:34:42pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

The whole fuckn’ Department of Defense violates the “separation between church and state” in the view of Amish and Quaker taxpayers. Get over it.

You can get out of combat positions based on religious grounds. Not so for ACA.

62 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:35:25pm

re: #61 compound_Idaho

You can get out of combat positions based on religious grounds. Not so for ACA.

You can’t get out of paying for Minot AFB.

63 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:35:30pm
64 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:35:34pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

1. Why did you use the somewhat loaded term ‘5 year plan’?

2. Present evidence to support your contention.

I don’t know if I would use the phrase “eliminating social security” but he is certainly willing to make changes to it that include allowing workers to invest one third of their contribution into their own savings account.

Or at least, that’s what his road map says (on page 7).

65 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:35:43pm

re: #59 Stanghazi

Have you seen the new commercials enlisting seniors against Medicare fraud?

No, I have not.

66 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:35:47pm

re: #61 compound_Idaho

You can get out of combat positions based on religious grounds. Not so for ACA.

You can’t however say your tax dollars can’t be used to pay for a tank.

67 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:36:26pm

re: #58 Heywood Jabloeme

30th verse, same as the first

68 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:36:29pm

re: #66 Kragar

You can’t however say your tax dollars can’t be used to pay for a tank.

22 seconds.

69 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:38:29pm

Winston haz a sad because nobody wants to give him a blow job.

70 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:38:33pm

Even Greenwald pulled back on the ‘direct access’ claim… after being exposed for what his lies were, he put on his poker face, and during various interviews and tweets, pretending that nobody could (easily) see through his bullshit, spouted nonsense such as “we never claimed direct access” the way we apparent plebs thought he meant ‘direct access’ to mean. Never mind the bizarre tweets that accompanied his initial claims such as telling the world that the U.S. government’s aim was not security at all!
“There is a massive apparatus within the United States government that with complete secrecy has been building this enormous structure that has only one goal, and that is to destroy privacy and anonymity, not just in the United States, but around the world,”
He actually said that, plus other variations on it, numerous times. The main priority was to deprive us all of privacy.
Then, as it became obvious that he and Snowden had been lying about the proof they had for their claims(as those of us who read LGF saw, thanks to mister Johnson), he tweeted and stated in interviews what was essentially a weak-kneed withdrawal of his most sensationalist, bombastic, and pretty obviously dishonest claim.
Yet, some people(wink-nudge) actually think that claim has been proven. Somehow.

One example of many:
littlegreenfootballs.com

71 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:38:36pm

re: #58 Heywood Jabloeme

GAZE

72 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:39:08pm

This is the problem with things like National Security Letters and the Verizon FISA court order. We know the government does issue gag orders. If Verizon employees had revealed the existence of the FISA court order ordering them to turn over the meta data record they would be facing serious jail time. For the people who follow Snowden, the fact that any gag orders exist mean that literally every tech company in the US is under one.

73 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:40:01pm

re: #58 Heywood Jabloeme

It’s a conspiracy because you say so.

74 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:40:13pm

Moonbats to the left of me, wingnuts to my right, here I am stuck at LGF with you…

75 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:40:13pm

Heywood’s argument makes a lot of sense once you watch this in its entirety:

Youtube Video

76 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:41:53pm

HA!

77 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:42:11pm

re: #72 McSpiff

The entire thing is trying to prove a negative. Google saying they don’t give access is meaningless when they could be legally barred from revealing that access. Defense of Market Share is not a legal defense after all.

This is where I have major problems with things like PRISM and the NSA projects in general.

78 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:42:45pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

No, I have not.

They are very interesting. From an advertising view, selling the ACA to seniors and fighting the fraud claims of their representatives in one punch. Empowering the people too. This administration will go down as the most successful at the media game to date.

79 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:42:57pm

re: #72 McSpiff

Wa?
That’s very Alex Jonesian.
Because one exists, that automatically means they have gagged thousands of people across dozens of companies?
Yeah.

80 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:43:48pm

re: #76 Kid Hail Satan

instagram.com

81 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:43:59pm

re: #79 cinesimon

Wa?
That’s very Alex Jonesian.
Because one exists, that automatically means they have gagged thousands of people across dozens of companies?
Yeah.

If they only target the competent IT guys and companies it gets easier.

82 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:44:21pm

re: #81 Decatur Deb

If they only target the competent IT guys and companies it gets easier.

That explains how Snowden slipped through.

83 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:45:20pm

re: #61 compound_Idaho

You can’t get out of paying for all those people who use hospitals who don’t have insurance.

84 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:46:40pm

re: #80 jaunte

I didn’t get the comment though about Rush, and I’ve been a fan of theirs since I was 12.

85 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:47:17pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not factually correct. Paul Ryan’s proposals have pertained to Medicare. He has not advanced a proposal for Social Security reform.

Yes he did. His budget created a whole new process for fast tracking cuts to SS by changing it into a regular budget line item, which for many reasons it never has been. His plan would have forced the President and Congress to make changes to it in any year reserves fell below a 75 year balance.

86 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:47:46pm

Much more important than this Snowden bullshit (to me), I have the final bound copies of my Ph.D. dissertation in hand!

Now if only they would approve the revisions on that stupid paper…

87 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:47:55pm

re: #79 cinesimon

Wa?
That’s very Alex Jonesian.
Because one exists, that automatically means they have gagged thousands of people across dozens of companies?
Yeah.

Thousands of people have jobs they legally can’t discuss without being directly employed by the government. You really think the number of operators for CALEA gear for a couple dozen companies is greater than the work force of Lockheed Martin and Booz Allen?

88 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:48:35pm

re: #85 goddamnedfrank

Yes he did. His budget created a whole new process for fast tracking cuts to SS by changing it into a regular budget line item, which for many reasons it never has been. His plan would have forced the President and Congress to make changes to it in any year reserves fell below a 75 year balance.

That sounds a bit like the ploy the same clowns used to destroy ‘profitability’ of the USPS.

89 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:48:45pm

re: #86 klys

Much more important than this Snowden bullshit (to me), I have the final bound copies of my Ph.D. dissertation in hand!

Now if only they would approve the revisions on that stupid paper…

I should note I refuse to actually read it because I don’t want to find that one typo that I know slipped through somewhere.

90 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:49:26pm

re: #84 Kid Hail Satan

I think he got his bands confused.

91 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:49:38pm

re: #72 McSpiff

This is the problem with things like National Security Letters and the Verizon FISA court order. We know the government does issue gag orders. If Verizon employees had revealed the existence of the FISA court order ordering them to turn over the meta data record they would be facing serious jail time. For the people who follow Snowden, the fact that any gag orders exist mean that literally every tech company in the US is under one.

That is a concern, but its not one that can be removed. The answer to is is that those kind of National Security Letters need to be properly overseen by the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. This is one of those few things the people really cannot be told much about. Ultimately, we have to elect the right people to Congress and hope they do their jobs.

92 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:50:53pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

That is a concern, but its not one that can be removed. The answer to is is that those kind of National Security Letters need to be properly overseen by the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. This is one of those few things the people really cannot be told much about. Ultimately, we have to elect the right people to Congress and hope they do their jobs.

Rep. Michele Bachmann, House Select Committee on Intelligence.

93 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:51:59pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

That is a concern, but its not one that can be removed. The answer to is is that those kind of National Security Letters need to be properly overseen by the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. This is one of those few things the people really cannot be told much about. Ultimately, we have to elect the right people to Congress and hope they do their jobs.

Yup, this is the essence of western style representative democracy.

94 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:52:04pm

re: #85 goddamnedfrank

That I had not heard about.

95 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:52:19pm

re: #87 McSpiff

You really think such a false equivalence isn’t immediately obvious?
Or do you actually believe that a gag order imposed overnight by a secret court is exactly the same as not discussing your classified defense dept work with strangers?

96 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:53:26pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

Rep. Michele Bachmann, House Select Committee on Intelligence.

I know, but there is no ‘grand solution’ to the problems of a district’s voters screwing up and electing a dunderhead.

97 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:55:08pm

re: #96 Dark_Falcon

I know, but there is no ‘grand solution’ to the problems of a district’s voters screwing up and electing a dunderhead.


FISA Court
Philosopher Kings.

98 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:57:54pm

Snowden is looking like a psycho at this point.

99 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:58:02pm

re: #95 cinesimon

You really think such a false equivalence isn’t immediately obvious?
Or do you actually believe that a gag order imposed overnight by a secret court is exactly the same as not discussing your classified defense dept work with strangers?

Yes, I think government orders that state you can’t reveal the nature of your work without facing potential criminal charges are similar. The fact that one results in charges from the Espionage act charges and the other PATRIOT or FISA act charges is largely irrelevant.

100 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:58:45pm

Destro got banned?

101 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:59:15pm

re: #100 Kid Hail Satan

Destro got banned?

It was the Hail Stalin!

102 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:59:23pm

‘extraordinary creeping paganism’

show me the goat sacrifices or shut up

103 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 6:59:33pm

re: #100 Kid Hail Satan

Destro got banned?

A while ago. And Stabby finally walked himself up to the line again this week.

…Possibly one of my favorite 4th of July presents ever.

104 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:00:31pm

DERP!!
SRSLY FUCK U BRYAN.

105 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:00:35pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

What is you and wife’s next vote area to infiltrate? I’m curious to your next defined hot spot. (Inspired to take dad trip but multitask to the good of the nation. He lives in SC dagnumit)

106 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:02:17pm

Christian love.

107 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:02:28pm

re: #98 prairiefire

Snowden is looking like a psycho at this point.

A pampered psycho. Success with “the end is near” placard.

108 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:03:09pm

re: #58 Heywood Jabloeme

Maybe we should all send a tweet and see if Dick Costolo, the CEO of Twitter, can’t answer questions regarding US Govt Domestic Spying. I mean, Twitter is a fairly influential US Company and he must have the resources to get any legal help that he might need if he were to break the law.

Link

If you are skeptical of the author’s characterization of Costolo’s reaction you can watch the video yourself at the link.

So you’re saying he can’t state whether he’s had overly broad requests from the government (the author’s unvalidated claim) but he can say his company has pushed back against overly broad requests (Costolo’s point) and you can’t see the answer?

109 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:03:20pm
110 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:03:24pm

re: #100 Kid Hail Satan

Stalinists not welcome.

111 cinesimon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:04:38pm

re: #99 McSpiff

Yes, there is a similarity. No duh.
But it also seems to me that you’re not quite aware of the differences.
One is a court order, imposed on a company long after that company came into existence. We also KNOW about the order. But you have said that because there is that one, then all other tech companies must be under the same order, and all employees are staying magically silent about it for fear of jail time. Not a one of them can figure out how to secretly tell the world. That’s some pretty magical stuff.
The other side is a company built for defense work, the employees are employed unde the condition that their work is secret.
But in your mind, the only difference is the charges laid if someone spoke out?
Weird.
Sorry, but the fact is, tech companies are not the weak-kneed appeasers of authoritarianism you seem to want them to be.

112 efuseakay  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:05:17pm
113 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:05:19pm

Completely OT, but the Snowden stuff brings out the kooks so I prefer to ignore it:

I plotted out a route for the potential road trip in August, from the Bay Area to CO (wedding to go to) and then we were thinking north to Glacier (but also hitting North Dakota if possible because we’ve never been). Looking at Glacier kind of makes it clear we’d probably want at least a week (if only to visit all the historic lodges, which is a thing we do) and availability at them is a crapshoot at best at this point (and not terribly likely) so …the potential for skipping it exists. It was also like 4300 miles which although doable for a 3 week trip is still a little higher than I would like.

…of course, I’ve done 6300 miles in two weeks, but that was a shitton of driving.

Any Lizards want to weigh in on options? We wanted to do the hot springs in central Idaho last year but it was on fire and so we passed. I’m sort of trying to not drag the husband to Yellowstone again because I’d want a week and he likes at least two years between visits if they’re that length (grumble). We would be up to going south from CO but I am a delicate flower who hates the heat so that needs to be considered. Although I can be persuaded otherwise for good thunderstorms.

The route to CO is looking pretty set (US 50 to US 40) so it’s more what we do after CO that I need suggestions on.

Oh, and I like landscape photography.

114 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:05:38pm

re: #105 Stanghazi

What is you and wife’s next vote area to infiltrate? I’m curious to your next defined hot spot. (Inspired to take dad trip but multitask to the good of the nation. He lives in SC dagnumit)

We’ll do some doorknocking for a hopeless young local Dem in this yr’s city election—I owe it to the locals for their support of the Florida trips.

2014 we’ll try to scare vulnerable Alabama TPGOPs into wasting some money.

Good sense and bad bones say we do 2016 across the FL line like we did 2012, but tonight we talked about refreshing our Spanish at the local college just in case we want to see the Alamo again.

115 compound_Idaho  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:05:41pm

re: #83 cinesimon

You can’t get out of paying for all those people who use hospitals who don’t have insurance.

Agreed. Hospital stays, major stuff, OK. I get the impression that the whole contraception stuff is just is just to put a finger in the eye of Catholics (‘m not Catholic nor particularly religious)

116 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:06:11pm

I have jury duty tomorrow.

117 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:06:32pm

re: #105 Stanghazi

What is you and wife’s next vote area to infiltrate? I’m curious to your next defined hot spot. (Inspired to take dad trip but multitask to the good of the nation. He lives in SC dagnumit)

If you’re far enough south in SC, you could hop to Jacksonville.

118 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:08:25pm

Bryan will ignore this and continue to spew his usual shit

119 Weet  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:09:00pm

I see Sowdum, like his mentor Greenbeck, doesn’t do the necessary research before making up his story and blabbing.

120 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:09:03pm

re: #115 compound_Idaho

Agreed. Hospital stays, major stuff, OK. I get the impression that the whole contraception stuff is just is just to put a finger in the eye of Catholics (‘m not Catholic nor particularly religious)

Wife is a ‘Shiite’ Catholic, teaches a bible study group. She’d like to put a finger, or boot, up Dolan’s ass.

121 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:10:04pm

re: #106 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Christian love.

Also spoken by someone who has never actually tried to get sterilized. Clearly.

It is not something I have tried for personally as I respect that, although I don’t want children now, it’s fairly difficult to reverse. But I’ve heard stories from women who have tried for sterilization, and if you are a young female with no children - particularly if you are single - forget finding a doctor willing to do it.

122 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:10:16pm

Wow. Destro went Hail Stalin? I knew he and Stabby were annoying, but Jesus.

123 compound_Idaho  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:11:32pm

re: #120 Decatur Deb

Wife is a ‘Shiite’ Catholic, teaches a bible study group. She’d like to put a finger, or boot, up Dolan’s ass.

Given church history he might like that finger thing.

124 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:12:27pm

re: #121 klys

Also spoken by someone who has never actually tried to get sterilized. Clearly.

It is not something I have tried for personally as I respect that, although I don’t want children now, it’s fairly difficult to reverse. But I’ve heard stories from women who have tried for sterilization, and if you are a young female with no children - particularly if you are single - forget finding a doctor willing to do it.

Unless, of course, you happen to be in prison.

125 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:12:41pm

re: #122 Kid Hail Satan

Wow. Destro went Hail Stalin? I knew he and Stabby were annoying, but Jesus.

He defended Stalin’s deportation of the Chechens, actually. And that after lambasting the US for far lesser wrongs.

126 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:12:54pm

re: #114 Decatur Deb

We’ll do some doorknocking for a hopeless young local Dem in this yr’s city election—I owe it to the locals for their support of the Florida trips.

2014 we’ll try to scare vulnerable Alabama TPGOPs into wasting some money.

Good sense and bad bones say we do 2016 across the FL line like we did 2012, but tonight we talked about refreshing our Spanish at the local college just in case we want to see the Alamo again.

Keep me posted Mr.

127 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:13:34pm

You know, Charles gets a lot of grief for banning people, but it’s his damn place and he can ban you if he wants. These clowns remind me of people that come over to YOUR place, drink YOUR beer, prop their feet up (with shoes on!) on YOUR coffee table, ash on YOUR carpet and control YOUR remote. (I’ve had experience with this as you can tell)

128 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:13:55pm

re: #115 compound_Idaho

Agreed. Hospital stays, major stuff, OK. I get the impression that the whole contraception stuff is just is just to put a finger in the eye of Catholics (‘m not Catholic nor particularly religious)

…and not at all because contraception is a routine portion of women’s health care?

No, it’s all about sticking a finger in the eye of Catholics. Even if the woman in question - for whom the health care is being provided - is not a Catholic.

I note that Catholics have no issue with providing Viagra.

129 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:14:20pm

re: #127 Kid Hail Satan

You know, Charles gets a lot of grief for banning people, but it’s his damn place and he can ban you if he wants. These clowns remind me of people that come over to YOUR place, drink YOUR beer, prop their feet up (with shoes on!) on YOUR coffee table, ash on YOUR carpet and control YOUR remote.

And they fart. A whole bunch. And very smelly.

130 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:15:16pm

I really dislike this Snowden fellow.

131 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:15:29pm
132 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:16:19pm

re: #131 Lidane

There’s that ‘Hail Satan’ chant again.

133 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:16:38pm

re: #115 compound_Idaho

Agreed. Hospital stays, major stuff, OK. I get the impression that the whole contraception stuff is just is just to put a finger in the eye of Catholics (‘m not Catholic nor particularly religious)

Really? The women needing bc don’t count in this debate. It has NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. They are only involved due to their martyrdom.

134 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:17:36pm

re: #113 klys

Hop on over to central Kansas if you would like to see some good thunderstorms! Wichita?

135 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:17:57pm

I find those embedded vine images in tweets to be very disturbing.

136 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:18:05pm

re: #116 Vicious Babushka

I have jury duty tomorrow.

Law and order. All the way.

137 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:18:19pm

In other news, gay parents raising children is child abuse…

138 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:18:21pm

re: #126 Stanghazi

Keep me posted Mr.

If you do want to do a little carpetbagging, the key is to get plugged into an OFA-like umbrella organization several months before the action starts. They know where the need is greatest and the local structure is strong enough to use the help. You can also do a lot electronically (data entry, calls).

139 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:19:20pm

re: #135 darthstar

I find those embedded vine images in tweets to be very disturbing.

Edited for proper conjugation.

140 bratwurst  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:19:39pm

The Twinkies we used to know had a shelf life of 26 days. For what is ostensibly a “baked good”, that is frightening. But the new Twinkies soon to hit the shelves will have a shelf life of 45 days! If that weren’t bad enough, some will be delivered to stores frozen so retailers can stamp their own expiration dates on the “cakes”!

Anyone who feeds this “food” to their children needs their head examined. Yes, I got them as a kid myself…and yes, I dealt with about 20 years of weight problems.

141 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:20:11pm

re: #137 Kid Hail Satan

Cool anecdote, Bryan.

142 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:20:40pm

re: #128 klys

…and not at all because contraception is a routine portion of women’s health care?

…snip
I note that Catholics have no issue with providing Viagra.

That’s between a man’s conscience and his doctor and his secretary.

143 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:20:41pm

re: #140 bratwurst

The Twinkies we used to know had a shelf life of 26 days. For what is ostensibly a “baked good”, that is frightening. But the new Twinkies soon to hit the shelves will have a shelf life of 45 days! If that weren’t bad enough, some will be delivered to stores frozen so retailers can stamp their own expiration dates on the “cakes”!

Anyone who feeds this “food” to their children needs their head examined. Yes, I got them as a kid myself…and yes, I dealt with about 20 years of weight problems.

When the zombiepocalypse hits, you’ll be happy they last a long time.

144 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:20:52pm

re: #132 jaunte

These people were also considered “unruly” and “a mob.” For all the Constitutional rights the wingnuts spew about, the right to assemble and exercise free speech always seems to escape them.

145 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:21:01pm

re: #137 Kid Hail Satan

In other news, gay parents raising children is child abuse…

[Embedded content]

And that one guy is all they have.

146 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:21:51pm

re: #140 bratwurst

The Twinkies we used to know had a shelf life of 26 days. For what is ostensibly a “baked good”, that is frightening. But the new Twinkies soon to hit the shelves will have a shelf life of 45 days! If that weren’t bad enough, some will be delivered to stores frozen so retailers can stamp their own expiration dates on the “cakes”!

For some reason, I keep reading “shelf life” as “half-life”.

147 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:21:53pm

re: #111 cinesimon
re: #111 cinesimon
I’m going to reply to inline, since you throw out so many absolutely poor arguments

.

Yes, there is a similarity. No duh.
But it also seems to me that you’re not quite aware of the differences.
One is a court order, imposed on a company long after that company came into existence.

Not quite. The FISA court order to Verizon includes provision relating to the individual employees carrying out the order. To quote the FISA order: “IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that no person shall disclose to any other person that the FBI or NSA has sought or obtained tangible things under this Order”

also We also KNOW about the order. But you have said that because there is that one, then all other tech companies must be under the same order, and all employees are staying magically silent about it for fear of jail time.

.

No, you miss the point. Its very likely that the vast majority of companies are being honest with their disclosure. However, we have no idea which, if any, have been legally obligated to keep their involvement secret.

Not a one of them can figure out how to secretly tell the world. That’s some pretty magical stuff.

Most lawful intercept systems are designed such that very few users have any idea whats being requested. If PRISM utilizes the existing systems put in place for the hundreds of court orders related to non-National Security related warrants its likely on the order of dozens of employees per company.

Things like CALEA already mandate that Lawful Intercept technology be built into networks. For ISPs and others, PRISM would largely be administrative not technological.

The other side is a company built for defense work, the employees are employed unde the condition that their work is secret.
But in your mind, the only difference is the charges laid if someone spoke out?
Weird.
Sorry, but the fact is, tech companies are not the weak-kneed appeasers of authoritarianism you seem to want them to be.

Or I believe that those involved with PRISM and other NSA programs believe that what they are doing is legal, necessary and in the nations best interest. The understand the need for secrecy and respect.

Unlike pukes like Snowden and Glennwald.

148 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:22:21pm

re: #140 bratwurst

This is why I hit up the local Mexican bakeries and meat markets when I want sweet breads and donuts. It’s all going to be freshly made and have a much quicker shelf life.

149 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:22:49pm

re: #146 Interesting Times

For some reason, I keep reading “shelf life” as “half-life”.

That’s correct.

150 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:23:13pm

re: #137 Kid Hail Satan

Marriage Equality Opponent Fails To Debunk Three Tactics LGBT Advocates Are Using

Anderson objects to the silencing of “gays against gay marriage” — people who identify as having a same-sex orientation but campaign against marriage equality. The only two examples he cites — namely because they seem to be the only two American examples that exist — are Robert Oscar Lopez and Doug Mainwaring. Mirroring an ex-gay narrative without using the term, Mainwaring disavowed his orientation, abstaining from all gay sex and raising his kids with his wife. Similarly, Lopez is bi but abides by heterosexuality and he bitterly blames his same-sex parents for his social dysfunctions. He is so bitter, in fact, that he seems to oppose adoption in all forms and even describes same-sex parenting as inherently constituting child abuse.

There are plenty of gay people who may have different opinions about marriage. Some might disagree as to whether it should be a priority for the LGBT movement. Others might argue it’s a heterosexual institution that gay people shouldn’t conform to. Others still might be motivated by their faith to oppose marriage equality. But individuals like Lopez and Mainwaring are trying to speak on behalf of a gay community they admit they do not actually identify with or participate in. It is not the LGBT movement that has marginalized them, but they who have ostracized themselves.

151 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:23:37pm

Too true:

152 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:23:45pm

The fact that testimony started this morning and someone FINALLY mentioned the separation of church and state should concern everyone:

153 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:23:56pm

In times like these, I really love LGF and my Lizards. Keep up the good fight Charles and the Lizardom.

154 compound_Idaho  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:23:58pm

re: #133 Stanghazi

Really? The women needing bc don’t count in this debate. It has NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. They are only involved due to their martyrdom.

Insure the catastrophic, not the routine.

155 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:24:00pm

DERP

156 efuseakay  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:24:06pm
157 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:24:27pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb

If you do want to do a little carpetbagging, the key is to get plugged into an OFA-like umbrella organization several months before the action starts. They know where the need is greatest and the local structure is strong enough to use the help. You can also do a lot electronically (data entry, calls).

Thanks.

158 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:25:07pm

re: #154 compound_Idaho

Insure the catastrophic, not the routine.

Uh, do you realize that failing to pay for the routine is what leads to catastrophic in the first place? o_O

159 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:25:44pm

re: #154 compound_Idaho

Insure the catastrophic, not the routine.

And pay far, far more because it is cheaper to deal with the routine than the catastrophic.

And those women who need birth control? Well, they can just go through the risks associated with pregnancy or not have sex. Or go through a ton of paperwork to get medication that their doctor has prescribed for them for a medical condition.

160 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:26:08pm
161 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:27:57pm

re: #158 Interesting Times

Uh, do you realize that failing to pay for the routine is what leads to catastrophic in the first place? o_O

re: #159 klys

And pay far, far more because it is cheaper to deal with the routine than the catastrophic.

And those women who need birth control? Well, they can just go through the risks associated with pregnancy or not have sex. Or go through a ton of paperwork to get medication that their doctor has prescribed for them for a medical condition.

That’s how it works here in Canada. I love our health care. I’d be a dead man without it.

162 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:28:53pm

re: #158 Interesting Times

Uh, do you realize that failing to pay for the routine is what leads to catastrophic in the first place? o_O

Because my health insurance paid a hundred or so p/a for routine glaucoma testing, I probably won’t go blind. About half of undetected cases result in blindness, IIRC. Then the blind guy gets to be disabled under SS for a couple decades.

163 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:28:55pm

re: #161 Romantic Heretic

That’s how it works here in Canada.

My understanding is that the government provides catastrophic coverage in Canada but most individuals can and do have separate policies (at reasonable prices) that cover the routine.

164 calochortus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:29:27pm

re: #113 klys

Great Basin Nat’l Park. You’ll be going practically right by it. Not a lot of places to stay unless you camp, but I highly recommend “End of the Trail…er” if she has an opening when you’re there. There are a couple other places in Baker, NV, but I can’t vouch for them. It will be hot in Baker (though nights should be cooler) but you can probably escape the heat by going up Wheeler Peak.

165 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:29:32pm

re: #160 Lidane

Dim Hoft posts in a misspelled rage in 3…2…1

166 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:29:50pm

re: #163 klys

My understanding is that the government provides catastrophic coverage in Canada but most individuals can and do have separate policies (at reasonable prices) that cover the routine.

Routine is generally government provided as well, with the exception of dental and eye. Things like Doctors visits are paid by the government.

167 Stanley Sea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:30:42pm

re: #160 Lidane

I posted in dead thread, but you, today when Perry un-announced, mentioning your mute in the conference call made me HUGE lol. Muchas gracias.

168 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:30:45pm

re: #166 McSpiff

Routine is generally government provided as well, with the exception of dental and eye. Things like Doctors visits are paid by the government.

Even better then, and I stand corrected.

Man, moving to Vancouver sounds better all the time.

169 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:31:28pm

re: #161 Romantic Heretic

That’s how it works here in Canada.

What?

A woman goes to a doctor, asks for birth control, gets a script and goes to the drug store.

No medical condition or long fill out of forms necessary.

170 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:31:29pm

re: #165 Kid Hail Satan

Dim Hoft posts in a misspelled rage in 3…2…1

Pamela usually posts the misspelled rages. Dim Jim uses spell check on his rages.

171 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:31:50pm

re: #164 calochortus

Great Basin Nat’l Park. You’ll be going practically right by it. Not a lot of places to stay unless you camp, but I highly recommend “End of the Trail…er” if she has an opening when you’re there. There are a couple other places in Baker, NV, but I can’t vouch for them. It will be hot in Baker (though nights should be cooler, but you can probably escape the heat by going up Wheeler Peak.

We did Great Basin on the trip to pick up the trailer, although we couldn’t drive to the top as the road was still closed from snow. Probably not surprising as it was March. I will definitely mark that on our list though, because I’m told the view is spectacular.

172 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:32:31pm
173 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:33:04pm

re: #166 McSpiff

Routine is generally government provided as well, with the exception of dental and eye. Things like Doctors visits are paid by the government.

This.

174 Kid A  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:33:27pm
175 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:33:30pm

re: #168 klys

Even better then, and I stand corrected.

Man, moving to Vancouver sounds better all the time.

And random drug testing of employees is forbidden by our human rights code. America has become a worker’s hellhole in comparison (“Oh hai, we can treat you like crap, not pay you overtime, and fire you at any time for any reason! Derp.”)

176 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:33:32pm

re: #168 klys

Even better then, and I stand corrected.

Man, moving to Vancouver sounds better all the time.

Oddly enough, ambulance rides aren’t covered. Go figure. What my private plan through work provides (+drug coverage):

Ambulance
Ambulance - Air - Emergency, Out of Canada
Ambulance - Air - Emergency, Out of Province
Ambulance - Air - Own Province
Ambulance - Ground - Emergency, Out of Canada
Ambulance - Ground - Emergency, Out of Province
Ambulance - Ground - Own Province

Blood Supplies
Blood/Plasma

Diabetic Supplies
Glucometer/Dextrometer
Insulin Jet Injector Device
Insulin Pump

Diagnostics
Blood Sampling
Lab Tests - Commercial Lab
Lab Tests - Doctor’s Office
Ultrasound - medical diagnostic
Ultrasound - pregnancy

Health Care Products and Supplies
Aerochamber
Catheter
CPAP/Bi-PAP machine
Incontinence Supplies
Maxi Mist/Nebulizer
Ostomy Supplies
Oxygen
Oxygen Equipment
Tens machine/muscle stimulator

Hearing Aid and Supplies
Hearing Aid - Purchase
Hearing Aid - Repair

Hospitalization
Convalescent Hospital/Physical Rehab - Own province
Hospital - Own Province - Semi-Private Room

Medical Equipment
Braces
Casts, Splints, Trusses
Crutches, Canes
Cushions (Orthopaedic)
Electric Wheelchair
Enuresis Monitor
Extremity Pump
Hospital Bed
Mechanical/Hydraulic Lift
Scooter
Therapeutic Mattress
Walker
Wheelchair - Purchase
Wheelchair Ramps
Wheelchair - Rental
Wheelchair - Repairs

Nursing Services
Licensed Practical Nurse
R.N.A Out of Hospital
R.N. - Out of Hospital

Orthopaedic Supplies
Elastic Support Stockings
Orthopaedic Shoes (Brace)
Orthopaedic Shoes - Custom-made
Orthotic Devices
Prescribed Arch Supports
Pressure Gradient Hose
Shoe Modification
Stump Sock

Paramedical Services
Acupuncture
Alberta Health care chiropractor visit
Alberta Health care podiatrist visit
Audiologist
Chiropodist
Chiropractor
Chiropractor X-Ray
Coagulotherapy
Massage Therapist
Naturopath
Occupational Therapist
Osteopath
Osteopath - X-Ray
Physiotherapy
Podiatrist
Podiatrist Surgery
Podiatrist X-Ray
Radiotherapy
Registered Dietician
Speech Therapy

Prosthesis
Limb Prosthesis - Purchase
Limb Prosthesis - Replace/Repair
Mammary Prosthesis
Myoelectric Prosthesis
Ocular Prosthesis
Surgical Bra
Wigs/Hairpieces

Psychologist Services
Psychologist Services
Social Worker

Vision Care
Contact Lenses
Contact Lenses (after surgery)
Glasses - Lenses & Frames
Laser Eye Treatment
Ophthalmologist
Optometrist
Safety glasses with prescription
Sunglasses with prescription

177 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:34:41pm
178 krypto  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:34:49pm

re: #155 Vicious Babushka

When I got the notice for that (really Reagan)phone program, and quickly saw that my income made me ineligible even if my age didn’t, I also noticed that the phones were really minimal models and came with very little air time per month.

James O’Keefe made a fake video purportedly showing the whole program to be an outrage — AN OUTRAGE!!!! — because some of his own people are shown on video getting their phone and telling the clerk in charge that they will sell it for drugs — like that really proves corruption by the people working for the program. Fox was making a big thing out of it briefly.

I doubt that anyone could actually sell those low tech minimal phones for enough money to get any drugs. They are however awfully useful to old people and others who would really benefit from a cell phone but maybe can’t afford one.

179 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:35:29pm

re: #156 efuseakay

Screw you, Karzai.

Karzai has never really trusted the US, and he’s corrupt as Hell, and we haven’t really liked him much since that became clear.

180 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:36:10pm

re: #163 klys

My understanding is that the government provides catastrophic coverage in Canada but most individuals can and do have separate policies (at reasonable prices) that cover the routine.

Here in Ontario most everything is covered except things like non-essential plastic surgery. Dental isn’t covered, nor drugs. Although the latter is much cheaper here than in the States.

Here’s a good article about the difference between U.S. and Canadian healthcare.

181 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:36:15pm

Nope, no climate change, nothing to see here, fingers in ears, lalala:

182 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:36:34pm

IF THEY SAY STUFF LIKE, GO OUT AND MURDER THE SHIT OUT OF A BUNCH OF GAY PEOPLE. YEAH THEY SHOULD TOTALLY BE ARRESTED.

183 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:36:54pm

re: #176 McSpiff

Oddly enough, ambulance rides aren’t covered. Go figure. What my private plan through work provides (+drug coverage):

I dare anyone to tell me again why Canada is such a socalist medicine nightmare when religious wingnuts are trying to restrict my access to medical treatment prescribed by my doctor.

Go on.

184 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:38:01pm

Place is infested with pampered syrup-sippers tonight.

185 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:40:05pm

re: #184 Decatur Deb

Place is infested with pampered syrup-sippers tonight.

¡Cañada!

186 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:40:05pm

re: #184 Decatur Deb

Place is infested with pampered syrup-sippers tonight.

The whole “Canadians have private insurance too!” thing seems to be coming up a lot. I know klys didn’t mean it in a wing nutty way, but I figured providing some background couldn’t hurt.

187 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:40:36pm

re: #183 klys

I dare anyone to tell me again why Canada is such a socalist medicine nightmare where religious wingnuts are trying to restrict my access to medical treatment prescribed by my doctor.

Go on.

Stalin, Mao, Cuba, etc.

Or something.

188 calochortus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:40:47pm

re: #183 klys

I dare anyone to tell me again why Canada is such a socalist medicine nightmare where religious wingnuts are trying to restrict my access to medical treatment prescribed by my doctor.

Go on.

I happen to know a woman in Canada who had a knee replacement the same day I had mine at my local Kaiser hospital. Our experiences were very similar and both good. Of course, you might say that Kaiser is as close as we get to socialized medicine here-except that we pay more in premiums. I’m looking forward to actual socialized medicine, aka Medicare-but I have a few years to go.

189 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:41:09pm

re: #167 Stanghazi

I posted in dead thread, but you, today when Perry un-announced, mentioning your mute in the conference call made me HUGE lol. Muchas gracias.

Haha, awesome. Glad someone else was amused by that. :D

I couldn’t help it. I like my boss, but without the mute button, it would’ve sounded like I was cheering for the sales training session I was in. ROFL.

190 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:41:59pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

Karzai has never really trusted the US, and he’s corrupt as Hell, and we haven’t really liked him much since that became clear.

But it seems the relationship has gotten worse. I would hate to see Afghanistan go down as a failure but that looks like a distinct possibility.

191 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:42:15pm

re: #186 McSpiff

The whole “Canadians have private insurance too!” thing seems to be coming up a lot. I know klys didn’t mean it in a wing nutty way, but I figured providing some background couldn’t hurt.

I certainly appreciate more info, as it’s not something I’ve had the chance to look too indepth on - just enough to know that yes, the government doesn’t cover everything so folks do have this private stuff but no, it doesn’t cost an arm and three legs like the American shit.

I have to spend too much time trying to figure out our family’s plan. Which is changing. For the second time in 12 months (first the employer stopped offering what we’d had, now they’re selling the division and so now we have a new employer and it’s TOTALLY DIFFERENT and oh hey, we need to withdraw some of the HSA contributions too).

What I wouldn’t give for even just the Canadian system.

192 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:43:10pm

re: #191 klys

What I wouldn’t give for even just the Canadian system.

I should note that I was trying to address the public/private nature of the Canadian system and not insult it in any way, shape, or form.

193 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:44:47pm

Water, water, everywhere and so the boat train did sink o_O

194 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:45:02pm

re: #186 McSpiff

The whole “Canadians have private insurance too!” thing seems to be coming up a lot. I know klys didn’t mean it in a wing nutty way, but I figured providing some background couldn’t hurt.

Italy does the two-path approach. Everyone is entitled to services from a ‘menu’ that is reworked frequently. Those who want better (more expensive) supplement it with private insurance. Doctors see both kinds of payment as they wish.

When Daughter Two got sick, the neighbors helped us with finding a neighborhood GP. Wife asked where to take her. Neighbor: “What do you mean? She’s sick. He comes to you.”

195 Bear  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:45:09pm

re: #113 klys

If you go through the Great Basin NP do not miss Lehman Caves. Years ago there was a campground in the Park very close to the Caves.

196 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:46:23pm

re: #192 klys

I should note that I was trying to address the public/private nature of the Canadian system and not insult it in any way, shape, or form.

You have insulted Canadian medicine to the core…

Um, it’s just a system, not a part of our self image.

197 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:47:50pm
198 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:48:12pm

re: #196 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

You have insulted Canadian medicine to the core…

Um, it’s just a system, not a part of our self image.

Shhh, I want them to like me when I apply to move there.

199 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:50:10pm

re: #198 klys

Shhh, I want them to like me when I apply to move there.

Unless you run across an Alberta/Saskatchewan Conservnut, we aren’t much prone to being upset about things like that.

200 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:50:59pm

re: #197 Lidane

Guy who doesn’t write in proper English says what?

201 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:51:32pm

(Item removed at request of Undersecretary of State for Avian Morality.)

202 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:51:49pm

re: #194 Decatur Deb

Italy does the two-path approach. Everyone is entitled to services from a ‘menu’ that is reworked frequently. Those who want better (more expensive) supplement it with private insurance. Doctors see both kinds of payment as they wish.

When Daughter Two got sick, the neighbors helped us with finding a neighborhood GP. Wife asked where to take her. Neighbor: “What do you mean? She’s sick. He comes to you.”

On our first international trip together, the (not-yet) husband and I went to Mexico. Where we then promptly both contracted salmonella (I blame the jalapenos, as it was the summer of the outbreak that they first thought was tomatoes but then blamed jalapenos from Mexico) and could not get enough fluids into the system to conteract what was exiting.

The folks at the bed and breakfast we were staying at got in touch with the family physician at 7pm on a Friday night and he came out and did a house call (my Spanish didn’t quite cover enough but the host’s English did, thankfully - it turns out that several important words are very similar). The host then went and got the drugs and fluids we needed from the pharmacy.

The whole thing cost less than $100 US, which we gladly paid to avoid a hospital trip (the next step).

The drugs worked too. Of course, we spent the next year watching for potentially fatal side effects, but it all ended well. And on the plus side, we really knew we traveled together well when the shit hit the fan. (Not …quite… literally.)

203 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:52:37pm
204 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:52:38pm
205 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:52:50pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

They’re very sticky about puffins, though. Don’t mention puffins.

What have you done? You best erase that comment before some less forgiving Canuck than me sees it.

206 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:52:53pm

re: #154 compound_Idaho

Insure the catastrophic, not the routine.

You know how I can tell you’re not an actuarial, in no world does this make financial sense. BC pills help prevent endometriosis, uterine and ovarian tumors. Routine medical tests are crucial in detecting diabetes, hypertension, and other conditions early, before debilitating complications like organ failure set in, costing the insurance company thousands of times more in outlays and negatively impacting the economy through lost productivity and other add on effects.

207 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:53:30pm
208 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:53:39pm

Been a while since I’ve been looking at the pages. Apparently someone drank the Koolaid and is posting Obama-Bush images with his pages. Twice that I saw. Circle of derp attained.

209 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:54:24pm

re: #208 Gus

Been a while since I’ve been looking at the pages. Apparently someone drank the Koolaid and is posting Obama-Bush images with his pages. Twice that I saw. Circle of derp attained.

I’m pretty certain that what he drank wasn’t Koolaid.

210 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:56:22pm
211 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:57:40pm

re: #209 klys

I’m pretty certain that what he drank wasn’t Koolaid.

Circle of Derp Nut™ breakfast drink>

212 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 7:58:12pm

re: #211 Gus

Circle of Derp NutTM breakfast drink>

A little too sour for me.

214 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:00:07pm

re: #213 Gus

G. Greenwald School of Effective Persuasion

215 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:00:38pm

re: #210 jaunte

[Embedded content]

The Democratic National Committee has bought up every SSD and USB dongle in Austin.

216 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:01:28pm

re: #214 jaunte

G. Greenwald School of Effective Persuasion

“Hey man, I’m sorry I said that man. I apologize and I was wrong for saying that you’re off your meds because I disagree with you.”

//

217 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:02:35pm

re: #213 Gus

BTW - have you been trying to save on your meds again by pill splitting?

I’d say it’s like he’s trying to see which comment can get the lowest rating except I don’t actually believe that.

The display name says a lot about the level of maturity being dealt with, for all that the issues under discussion are supposedly “adult”.

218 Lidane  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:03:01pm

And tonight, one of the most Jonah Goldberg-quoting, NRO reading, arch-conservative guys I know is going to a Stand for Texas Women rally to oppose the bullshit that the GOP is trying to pass in Austin.

Looks like the fail of the Texas Lege is crossing party lines.

219 jdoc1357  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:03:40pm

Something seems to be missing in this posting that seems vaguely important. Aren’t these major corporations required by the secret pseudo-court to lie to and mislead the public about the details of their participation in the top secret government spying program? Wouldn’t this very easily explain why these corporations would lie to the public in unison about their participation in a top secret government spying program?

Edward Snowden came out and told the public that these programs exist and the details of how they work, and for that he is a “criminal” who’s facing life in prison. But according to Charles, when news of this broke, these major corporations would come right out and…. do exactly what Snowden did: tell the public that these programs exist and the details of how they work.

For the companies to admit to anything Snowden reported could make them guilty of the same “crime” as him. They have every incentive in to lie here. So did Snowden, but he just said fuck it, told the truth and ran for his life. Major corporations are unlikely to make that choice, but that is the choice Charles is effectively suggesting we should all believe they’d make.

That the major corporations’ lies were so unison in their wordings was one of the things dubious about the statements. It has the ring of legalistic technicality being employed: So if the specifics ever come out, then it’s arguing over what exactly Google or Facebook means by the phrase in context. There was some good discussion of their weirdly unison wordings and the slippery semantics of “direct access” here: theatlanticwire.com

Also, about this “massive consumer backlash” that will supposedly materialize if their prior statements wind up being shown false (assuming it is even possible for the slippery unison semantics to be shown objectively - rather than just arguably - false in the first place), I think Charles has been drinking too much of his own kool-aid. There isn’t really much dispute that the government is getting this data, and little dispute about what kind of data it’s getting. But Charles thinks the most super important thing is whether this getting happens in a way where the phrase “direct access” applies. Everyone already knows there is the “access”, so this boils down to what exactly “direct” means in this context of mass data gathering. And the consuming public are supposedly sitting on the edge of their chairs, waiting for the outcome of this semantic quibble to see if they’ll launch their massive boycotts. Hmm. Color me skeptical of that reasoning.

Also, who will all these consumers turn to for their social networking needs once they launch their massive consumer boycotts of all the major internet sites? If there are any plausible alternatives out there, they are likely also already required to turn over their data and lie to the public about doing so. And if somehow all these consumers flock to a bunch of small up-and-comers, then those sites will grow and they’ll soon be getting an order from the secret pseudo-court to hand over their data and lie to the public about doing so.

And what happened to the major telecom corporations who got exposed participating in warrantless wiretapping for the Bush administration and lying about it? Did they go to jail? Did they face massive consumer boycotts? Oh, that’s right. Nothing happened to them. Ultimately, the internet companies here have a pretty good defense against public anger. They were being forced to lie to the public about their participation in the government’s criminal conspiracy against the public. That’s pretty exculpatory. Forcing everyone involved to lie about their involvement is a big part of the conspiracy, and taken very seriously. It’s the part Snowden broke. There’s already been some noises made by some of these companies for the government to allow them to stop lying to the public about it. Maybe one day that time will come.

220 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:04:49pm

Man, seriously, I apparently should have invested in a tin foil company the moment the Snowden shit started.

221 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:05:43pm

re: #220 klys

Man, seriously, I apparently should have invested in a tin foil company the moment the Snowden shit started.

I might need to start wearing a tinfoil hat to protect myself from the tinfoil hat people.

222 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:07:12pm

re: #217 klys

I hate when people throw personal insults when they think someone is wrong. I can think people are wrong without making jokes about their mental status. It’s like this guy is Destro’s brother or something.

223 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:07:24pm
224 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:08:32pm

re: #221 Gus

I might need to start wearing a tinfoil hat to protect myself from the tinfoil hat people.

Might have to move to Saran Wrap.

225 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:08:54pm

re: #221 Gus

I might need to start wearing a tinfoil hat to protect myself from the tinfoil hat people.

When tinfoil simply won’t do:

Image: 800px-Fire_fighters_practice_with_spraying_equipment%2C_March_1981.jpg

226 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:09:27pm

re: #223 Gus

GEORGE-BUSH-OBAMA!!11ty

What’s the endgame for people comparing Obama to Bush? Another Bush?

227 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:09:50pm

Rarely have so many indulged in so much bad reasoning.

228 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:10:01pm

re: #226 dragonath

What’s the endgame for people comparing Obama to Bush? Another Bush?

There’s more!

229 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:10:16pm

re: #227 Charles Johnson

Rarely have so many indulged in so much bad reasoning.

…for the benefit of so few.

230 sagehen  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:10:49pm

re: #182 Vicious Babushka

IF THEY SAY STUFF LIKE, GO OUT AND MURDER THE SHIT OUT OF A BUNCH OF GAY PEOPLE. YEAH THEY SHOULD TOTALLY BE ARRESTED.

[Embedded content]

“…after he was caught on a London sidewalk preaching…”


Because they don’t have a First Amendment in London. Or the whole of the UK even. And they don’t allow people to block sidewalks with preaching, or political screeds, or sales pitches, or any other damn thing.

(they do have a space in the park where you can get up on your soapbox, it’s called Speaker’s Corner, and only people who want to hear you will have to hear you.)

231 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:11:30pm

Ghost of a Flea brand Tinfoil: the fine layer of GOLD provides thought protection that completely outcompetes pure-aluminum products, and can act as non-fiat currency in a post-collapse economic scenario!

Buy three foil hats together and we’ll throw in a foil athletic protector, because nobody should be able to mess with your seed!

232 Belafon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:12:52pm

re: #219 jdoc1357

Aren’t these major corporations required by the secret pseudo-court to lie to and mislead the public about the details of their participation in the top secret government spying program?

and

For the companies to admit to anything Snowden reported could make them guilty of the same “crime” as him.

Proof? And you’re not allowed to say “Because they all lied.”

Edward Snowden came out and told the public that these programs exist and the details of how they work, and for that he is a “criminal” who’s facing life in prison.

Normally, breaking the law like this gets you in trouble.

That the major corporations’ lies were so unison in their wordings was one of the things dubious about the statements.

You’re assumming they are actually lying and working from there. Do you have proof?

233 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:13:44pm

Once again, Snowden shows himself to be a liar and an idiot.

Hell, I have more knowledge on how the intelligence industry works, and I just read spy novels.

This asshole worked for the intelligence industry for half a decade, and knows less than squat.

I am personally offended.

234 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:15:19pm

re: #228 Gus

There’s more!

Meant this page.

Basically, if PBO loses the ACLU FISA suit he’ll be no worse than Cheney and, drum roll please, John Bolton. Complete with Obama-Bush morph pic again.

235 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:15:19pm

re: #228 Gus

I don’t want to sound like Killgore, but it looks like this stupid thing I saw at Kos earlier:

Image: ObamaSpyNet_zps56cf0c04.jpg

Click Pic to embiggen for full effect :-) (13+ / 0-)
Yeah, great cartoon on several different levels.
1) There’s your Change, enjoy.
2) The I-Spy camera hidden in the “O”.
3) Just really spooky when enlarged to full size.

No, it’s just really fucking retarded.

236 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:16:25pm

re: #235 dragonath

I don’t want to sound like Killgore, but it looks like this stupid thing I saw at Kos earlier:

No, it’s just really fucking retarded.

Waiting for the Hitler and Stalin pics to show up next.

237 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:17:15pm

re: #236 Gus

Waiting for the Hitler and Stalin pics to show up next.

For you!

Image: Martin-Rowson-10.06.2013-002.jpg

238 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:17:39pm

“i don’t believe anything i hear and only half of what i see”

why anybody would be surprised to find out that obama continued bush era surveillance at this late date is beyond me

i don’t really care to parse statements since it should be clear that, ultimately, privacy can always be compromised in an electronic society

239 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:17:49pm

re: #217 klys

I’d say it’s like he’s trying to see which comment can get the lowest rating except I don’t actually believe that.

The display name says a lot about the level of maturity being dealt with, for all that the issues under discussion are supposedly “adult”.

When I was twelve “Heywood Jablowme” killed me every time.

240 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:21:07pm

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

I could not listen to more than 30 seconds of that whiny bitchy little voice.

HOW DID THAT FUCKBALL GET A $62/HR JOB WITH BOOZ ALLEN

That is the Great Unanswered Question.

WORD.

241 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:22:26pm

re: #37 twisty

The fact that anyone on the left worships this dude is the saddest thing, or did they miss the insane junk he spouted about Social Security.

FUCKING WORD.

242 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:22:27pm

re: #230 sagehen

and only people who want to hear you will have to hear you

somebody would want to hear me???

243 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:27:36pm

Corporations all lie. Therefore, anybody that makes a claim about a corporation must be telling the truth. Because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence…and a plot summary of a William Gibson novel scrawled on a bathroom door in Cheeto dust is nothing if not out-of-the-ordinary, right?

244 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:27:43pm

re: #84 Kid Hail Satan

I didn’t get the comment though about Rush, and I’ve been a fan of theirs since I was 12.

“Freewill”

Youtube Video

245 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:29:12pm
246 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:29:48pm

Radar on.

247 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:30:17pm

re: #245 Gus

Image: 1101130520_600.jpg

Joel Stein is a poindexter dweeb.

248 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:31:31pm

re: #247 dragonath

Joel Stein is a poindexter dweeb.

He does say, “why they’ll save us all.” I don’t know. Most of the time I just see them walking their dogs and staring at their iPhones.

249 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:31:34pm

re: #247 dragonath

Joel Stein is a poindexter dweeb.

Buster or Admiral?

250 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:32:36pm

re: #246 Gus

Radar on.

Turn that shit off, Gus, There are EW aircraft in the area! You run your radar in search mode and you’ll end up on the wrong side of an ALARM!

//

251 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:32:57pm

re: #160 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Every American Muslim, and more than a few foreign nationals, I’ve met has been a fine person. (Except that one dude, he was a douche.)

252 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:33:31pm

re: #239 BongCrodny

When I was twelve “Heywood Jablowme” killed me every time.

One does hope, however, that you are still not twelve.

Although this is the internet, so you never know.

254 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:35:32pm
255 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:35:54pm

re: #249 Decatur Deb

Buster or Admiral?

Buster. He’s got no leadership experience, so Buster he must be. And tonight in Chicago it is hot, hot, hot.

Youtube Video

256 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:36:37pm

Hiya..Been keeping up the news here..
Over the weekend I installed Linex on a laptop so I can learn it.. I’ve been playing around for 2 or 3 days. It’s new and it’s fun to learn..I’ve been a windows guy and some Mac..
This reminds me of the old days when Windows was so strange and fun to mess around with..
So my Bash scripts really suck..Well at least I’m only 10 years behind time..
Overall Linux Mint is awesome..It installed fast, Found everything and was on-line and connected with-in minutes of the install..It all works great, I was so sure this was going to be a disaster on one of my new laptops.. My ass was tighter than an O ring on the Space shuttle during the install.
Wooo..*wipes face with cold cloth*

257 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:36:51pm

re: #181 Interesting Times

Nope, no climate change, nothing to see here, fingers in ears, lalala:

[Embedded content]

YYZ.

Youtube Video

258 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:37:45pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Welcome, Penguinista.

259 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:37:52pm

There are a hell of a lot of so-called “millenials”. We can’t help it if Reddit is 4Chan University.

260 darthstar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:40:05pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Hiya..Been keeping up the news here..
Over the weekend I installed Linex on a laptop so I can learn it.. I’ve been playing around for 2 or 3 days. It’s new and it’s fun to learn..I’ve been a windows guy and some Mac..
This reminds me of the old days when Windows was so strange and fun to mess around with..
So my Bash scripts really suck..Well at least I’m only 10 years behind time..
Overall Linux Mint is awesome..It installed fast, Found everything and was on-line and connected with-in minutes of the install..It all works great, I was so sure this was going to be a disaster on one of my new laptops.. My ass was tighter than an O ring on the Space shuttle during the install.
Wooo..*wipes face with cold cloth*

Heya Hoops! Welcome to the world of not worrying about malware or viruses.

261 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:42:39pm

re: #259 dragonath

There are a hell of a lot of so-called “millenials”. We can’t help it if Reddit is just 4Chan University.

ITS A TRAP!

262 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:43:31pm

Hey, we oldsters need our “you kids get off our lawn” moments from time to time. :D

263 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:44:32pm

re: #219 jdoc1357

Something seems to be missing in this posting that seems vaguely important. Aren’t these major corporations required by the secret pseudo-court to lie to and mislead the public about the details of their participation in the top secret government spying program? Wouldn’t this very easily explain why these corporations would lie to the public in unison about their participation in a top secret government spying program?

You must be so full of shit that your eyes are brown.

Listen: I’ve worked on LAES and CALEA standards, and other security standards for another SDO, and have friends in defense and intelligence and the telecoms, and you have no freaking idea how goddamn careful they are regarding American citizens’ (and other people’s) rights.

This conspiracy bullshit is starting to sicken me. And it’s Snowden’s fault, because he’s an idiot, and it’s Greenwald’s fault, because he’s an egotist.

/spit

264 marxmarv  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:45:11pm

“All of the companies named in those Powerpoint slides (Google, Facebook, Skype, Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple, etc.) have denied this allegation from the start.”

At least two in very similar language and form, presumably drawn from the same talking points.

Besides, you’re concentrating far too much on the word “direct” as if you were emotionally invested in disproving the allegation rather than considering it. Can an analyst enter a selector and get data back from the system with almost no oversight? From the analyst’s point of view, that’s pretty direct.

“I remain highly skeptical that all these major corporations would lie in unison, when their very existence depends on the trust of the people who use their products and services. If Snowden’s claims turned out to be true, and were verified, they’d be risking a massive consumer backlash the likes of which the world has never seen. All of them. In unison.”

Ockham might prefer this rather simpler narrative: they likely were all asked at the same time, as tech reporters tend to do when reporting. Divulging classified information is a Federal crime, and PRISM was thoroughly classified TS/SCI at the time[1]. To beat Snowden about the head with this but not the CEOs that say the things you’d rather hear… is the height of hypocrisy and partisanship (they are inseparable, after all).

[1] Notably, the existence of PRISM was declassified by the Administration the day after Google and Facebook released their statements. Not enough wiggle room, otherwise.

265 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:45:21pm

I like our constitutional republic. I’d rather be fighting Republicans than some communist extremist.

266 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:46:04pm

re: #265 Gus

But Communists never spy ///

267 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:46:30pm

GROUPTHINK!

268 marxmarv  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:49:12pm

re: #263 chadu

You argue like a Republican.

Unless you’re arguing that CEOs shouldn’t have to be subject to the same laws as Snowden and should be able to discuss national security freely as a matter of class privilege.

Which actually is even more Republican than I expected.

269 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:49:42pm

re: #267 Charles Johnson

GROUPTHINK!

I remember the last time I went all Gus (freaked) I started snarking that. I had one serious case of bad attitude.

270 bratwurst  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:50:17pm

What is it about this story that drives Snowden/Greenwald fans to be SO verbose?

271 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:50:18pm

re: #268 marxmarv

You argue like a Republican.

Unless you’re arguing that CEOs shouldn’t have to be subject to the same laws as Snowden and should be able to discuss national security freely as a matter of class privilege.

Which actually is even more Republican than I expected.

Chadu. Argues like, a Republican? That’s funny.

272 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:51:08pm

Chadu argues like someone I’ve never seen before in my life. He is very unique, intelligent, and provides valuable insights from time to time.

273 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:51:37pm

re: #271 Gus

Chadu. Argues like, a Republican? That’s funny.

Are you not persuaded?

274 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:52:15pm

re: #273 jaunte

Are you not persuaded?

We should measure his beard.

275 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:54:03pm

Listen up here. And listen up now. Anyone who disagrees with me. Is a Republican. Now duly right that down. It’s, important to me.

276 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:54:28pm

Why do German philosophers have the weirdest fans?

277 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:54:28pm

Check.

278 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:55:28pm

[Tiny space ship flies by.]

279 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:55:43pm

re: #259 dragonath

There are a hell of a lot of so-called “millenials”. We can’t help it if Reddit is 4Chan University.

I’m ticked about people dumping on the Millenials. (Then again, I’m Gen X, and still ticked about being dumped on for that.)

Fucking Boomers. All I got to say.

280 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:55:48pm

Mortar plate down. Mortar ready.

Sighted sir!

281 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:56:30pm

re: #279 chadu

I’m ticked about people dumping on the Millenials. (Then again, I’m Gen X, and still ticked about being dumped on for that.)

Fucking Boomers. All I got to say.

I can draw by hand and build a go cart from scratch.

282 jaunte  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:57:39pm

re: #281 Gus

I can draw by hand and build a go cart from scratch.

Briggs looks at Stratton, raises eyebrow.

283 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:58:27pm

re: #268 marxmarv

You argue like a Republican.

Seriously, take that back.

Unless you’re arguing that CEOs shouldn’t have to be subject to the same laws as Snowden and should be able to discuss national security freely as a matter of class privilege.

Which actually is even more Republican than I expected.

I don’t even.

I got nothing here. Connect for me the ABC of how you got that from my posts. I’m curious. Take your time.

284 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:58:29pm

re: #219 jdoc1357

Something seems to be missing in this posting that seems vaguely important. Aren’t these major corporations required by the secret pseudo-court to lie to and mislead the public about the details of their participation in the top secret government spying program?

No. Gag orders (as onerous as they may be) are never a requirement to lie. That would be a prima facie violation of the 1st Amendment and if proven completely anathematic to the well being of any publicly traded company. They’d be destroyed overnight. There’s no way they would just blithely go along with such a scheme. The companies in question are massively multinational and rely on worldwide goodwill to function, and yet you don’t even ask yourself why they’d risk all that to comply without protest with what you yourself term a “pseudo-court.”

This is an example of a conspiracy theory growing so vast and antithetical to reality that it starts to create it’s own weather patterns in order to survive in the minds of believers. The system, as it were, has to be so obviously and intrinsically evil that the only people who could ever possibly be telling the truth are those trying to tear it down. Where cognitive bias forms a critical runaway reaction and objective reality is consumed in the process.

285 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:59:43pm

Look. Noobs. This place is like a bar. Don’t come in here with your guns a blazing.

286 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 8:59:48pm

re: #271 Gus

Chadu. Argues like, a Republican? That’s funny.

INORITE?

I’m probably the most hippy leftist on this site, with some exceptions for more established Lizardim.

287 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:00:54pm

re: #272 Gus

Chadu argues like someone I’ve never seen before in my life. He is very unique, intelligent, and provides valuable insights from time to time.

Awwwww, I’m touched.

(gives Gus a bro-hug)

288 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:01:36pm

re: #287 chadu

Awwwww, I’m touched.

(gives Gus a bro-hug)

{{bro-hug back at ya}}

289 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:01:54pm

Oh jeez. Did you see that?

Thought Leaders

290 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:01:55pm

re: #286 chadu

You mean you aren’t more Republican than a Republican? My pre-established conceptions are melting, melting…!

291 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:02:01pm

re: #274 Gus

We should measure his beard.

I’m shaving tomorrow!

Keeping the goatee/Van Dyke, though.

It attracts the ladies.

292 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:02:36pm

re: #291 chadu

I’m shaving tomorrow!

Keeping the goatee/Van Dyke, though.

It attracts the ladies.

Mine attracts pieces of pasta.

293 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:02:49pm

re: #268 marxmarv

You argue like a Republican.

Because he argues using facts?

294 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:03:14pm

re: #291 chadu

Dick Van Dyke is pretty cool.

295 marxmarv  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:03:46pm

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

For a senior sysadmin and white-hat hacker with a TS clearance, CIA experience and an expensive Hawaii post, $124k/yr is perfectly reasonable for a contract job. You seriously think these networks of thousands of machines fix themselves?!

296 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:04:09pm

Charles, my impression of LGF is that its pretty much a one man operation. Does that apply to the contact form as well? Looking to take part of this discussion off the main thread, just wondering who would have access to that.

297 BroncD  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:04:23pm

We are now more than a month into this nightmare. So… where is all that awesome corroborating evidence from Greenwald/Snowden? If they have it, where is it?

298 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:04:35pm

re: #285 Gus

Look. Noobs. This place is like a bar. Don’t come in here with your guns a blazing.

And you made me do this, with that comment.

Youtube Video

299 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:04:46pm

re: #295 marxmarv

For a senior sysadmin and white-hat hacker with a TS clearance, CIA experience and an expensive Hawaii post, $124k/yr is perfectly reasonable for a contract job. You seriously think these networks of thousands of machines fix themselves?!

And Snowden sure fixed them, boy howdy.

300 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:05:00pm

no, republicans (wingnuts, that is) argue like this:

“you and your buddy fidel want the government to run everything”

301 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:05:33pm
302 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:06:32pm

re: #301 Gus

Jim Henson FTW

303 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:06:43pm

Where were all these people when the Patriot Act was passed?

I mean, really. I’m kind of tired of the conspiracy theories when what was revealed was the logical extrapolation of that mess of a law.

304 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:07:12pm

There is Saint Francis of Hoboken and Saint John of Kingsland.

Period. Full stop.

305 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:07:56pm

re: #292 Gus

Mine attracts pieces of pasta.

Well, yeah. That too.

LEFTOVERS!

306 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:08:28pm

re: #293 Dark_Falcon

Because he argues using facts?

NULL PROGRAM.

307 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:08:39pm

re: #305 chadu

Well, yeah. That too.

LEFTOVERS!

Hey! Where did that noodle come from?

308 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:09:11pm

re: #294 dragonath

Dick Van Dyke is pretty cool.

Absolute best sitcom ever.

And yummy MTM.

309 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:09:37pm

re: #304 chadu

There is Saint Francis of Hoboken and Saint John of Kingsland.

Period. Full stop.

Saint Finbar, Brooklyn, New Jersey. Been in fist fights. You want something from me?!!

//

310 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:11:00pm

re: #295 marxmarv

For a senior sysadmin and white-hat hacker with a TS clearance, CIA experience and an expensive Hawaii post, $124k/yr is perfectly reasonable for a contract job. You seriously think these networks of thousands of machines fix themselves?!

No degree, though. That’s the curious bit.

Back in the 90s, I could have bought that — more than one acquaintence had no degree.

In the 21st Century, though… that’s a harder row to how.

311 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:11:30pm

re: #303 klys

Where were all these people when the Patriot Act was passed?

I mean, really. I’m kind of tired of the conspiracy theories when what was revealed was the logical extrapolation of that mess of a law.

ASLEEP.

312 dragonath  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:11:33pm

re: #308 chadu

Absolute best sitcom ever.

Did you know he was saved by dolphins?

The actor Dick Van Dyke has claimed he was saved by a school of porpoises after he found himself adrift at sea on a surfboard, according to reports.

Best sentence ever.

313 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:12:08pm

re: #303 klys

Where were all these people when the Patriot Act was passed?

I mean, really. I’m kind of tired of the conspiracy theories when what was revealed was the logical extrapolation of that mess of a law.

exactamente

314 BishopX  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:12:36pm

re: #303 klys

I number of us were quite pissed off about that too, and haven’t gotten any less pissed off as time goes by.

As far as I’m concerned the shit the government is doing in the name of national security is wrong. I don’t particularly care that they found 11 dudes in robes to rubber stamp their actions. Morality and legality are, and should be distinct concepts.

315 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:13:17pm

re: #302 dragonath

Jim Henson FTW

Did someone just diss Henson?

You cannot diss Henson or Fred Rogers in my presence.

I get angry.

You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

(cue Hulk closing credits music)

316 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:14:02pm

re: #315 chadu

Did someone just diss Henson?

You cannot diss Henson or Fred Rogers in my presence.

I get angry.

You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

(cue Hulk closing credits music)

Apparently my mom took away my Sesame Street viewing privileges

317 marxmarv  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:14:05pm

re: #271 Gus

Yeah, fair enough. Howdy Gus. Howdy chadu.

I still can’t say as I’ve ever seen a clearer example of argumentum ad baculum than #263. A perfectly fine question answered with a complete non-sequitur ejaculation of moral indignation of the sort I haven’t heard since I looked at some redneck’s daughter a little too long.

Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by a perverse payoff matrix.

318 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:14:34pm

re: #312 dragonath

Did you know he was saved by dolphins?

Best sentence ever.

I KNEW THAT! And I have secondary sources that confirm it!

BADASS!

319 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:15:25pm

re: #317 marxmarv

Yeah, fair enough. Howdy Gus. Howdy chadu.

I still can’t say as I’ve ever seen a clearer example of argumentum ad baculum than #263. A perfectly fine question answered with a complete non-sequitur ejaculation of moral indignation of the sort I haven’t heard since I looked at some redneck’s daughter a little too long.

Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by a perverse payoff matrix.

My analysts need to analyze your statement. Give me 24 hours. //

320 klys  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:17:20pm

re: #314 BishopX

I number of us were quite pissed off about that too, and haven’t gotten any less pissed off as time goes by.

As far as I’m concerned the shit the government is doing in the name of national security is wrong. I don’t particularly care that they found 11 dudes in robes to rubber stamp their actions. Morality and legality are, and should be distinct concepts.

I am not disagreeing. I was against the Patriot Act when it happened. I’m against it now. I don’t like what’s happening.

I also think Snowden is, at best, a coward.

I think the conspiracy theories running amok are utter bullshit and should be treated as such. I didn’t abandon my own critical thinking, analysis, and extrapolation skills based on the news of what the government may or may not have been doing. It’s disappointing to see it happening in so many places, right or left.

321 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:17:53pm

re: #263 chadu

You must be so full of shit that your eyes are brown.

Listen: I’ve worked on LAES and CALEA standards, and other security standards for another SDO, and have friends in defense and intelligence and the telecoms, and you have no freaking idea how goddamn careful they are regarding American citizens’ (and other people’s) rights.

This conspiracy bullshit is starting to sicken me. And it’s Snowden’s fault, because he’s an idiot, and it’s Greenwald’s fault, because he’s an egotist.

/spit

Uhh, maybe you worked on the policy side, because there’s absolutely nothing on the technical side to block it. The amount of traffic you can mirror to CALEA devices is mind blowing and there’s absolutely nothing in the silicon or firmware to block a user with proper access from doing a pretty wide sweep.

322 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:18:15pm

We’re all gonna die man! //

323 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:19:26pm

re: #322 Gus

We’re all gonna die man! //

Eventually, yeah.
/

324 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:19:29pm
325 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:25:06pm

re: #317 marxmarv

I still can’t say as I’ve ever seen a clearer example of argumentum ad baculum than #263. A perfectly fine question answered with a complete non-sequitur ejaculation of moral indignation of the sort I haven’t heard since I looked at some redneck’s daughter a little too long.

Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by a perverse payoff matrix.

Wow. Thank you.

I honestly mean that.

I still think you’re wrong, but that’s high left-handed praise, and I’ll accept it.

(I may even aver you may have a point.)

326 jdoc1357  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:29:13pm

re: #284 goddamnedfrank

Yes, gag orders require you to lie by omission at the very least. The lie that companies like Facebook and Verizon have been required to help promote and maintain is that the government was not collecting data on the communications of tens or hundreds of millions of innocent people, in part by requiring Facebook and Verizon to put their networks at the service of that conspiracy. It’s the same lie that Clapper was trying to maintain when he directly lied to the Congress that supposedly provides the “oversight”. Though typically a company like Facebook, if asked whether such data collection happens, in order to fill their requirement to maintain the lie, would either say they have no comment, lie to the effect that they don’t know the answer, or issue a carefully worded denial of some sort using ambiguous wordings that lie in such a way that leaves room for plausible deniability. All these kinds of lies, and probably a few other kinds of lies, can be acceptable under the gag order. The one thing that is not acceptable under the gag order is telling the truth.

327 marxmarv  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:31:23pm

re: #310 chadu

No degree, though. That’s the curious bit.

Back in the 90s, I could have bought that — more than one acquaintence had no degree.

In the 21st Century, though… that’s a harder row to how.

Ah! That’s better.

Granted, I haven’t heard of people lately who are making that sort of money, but I haven’t been in much contact with my old circle of peeps. I do know there were people making $60/hr for remote NOC work.

You may be better positioned to speak to this than me: how much downward pressure is there on a contractor’s wages when the consulting firm has a cost-plus contract? If there isn’t very much, and the contract Snowden got in Hawaii was by a cost-plus contractor, that might come close to explaining it.

(edit for clarity in italics)

328 gunnison  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:34:53pm
I remain highly skeptical that all these major corporations would lie in unison, when their very existence depends on the trust of the people who use their products and services. If Snowden’s claims turned out to be true, and were verified, they’d be risking a massive consumer backlash the likes of which the world has never seen. I remain highly skeptical that all these major corporations would lie in unison, when their very existence depends on the trust of the people who use their products and services. If Snowden’s claims turned out to be true, and were verified, they’d be risking a massive consumer backlash the likes of which the world has never seen.

OK, but let’s deconstruct that reasoning a little, just for grins.

If their business depends on trust, and if they are allowing intelligence gathering via some kind of “back door” kinda thing, then they sure as hell would “lie in unison”, wouldn’t they?
To do otherwise would be to blow their trust right out of the water for good. How else would they avoid that mother of all consumer backlashes?

So if Snowden’s assertions are false, then the corporations’ strenuous denials make sense, and they’re telling the truth.
If Snowden’s assertions are true, then the corporations’ denials still make sense, for the very reason you articulate.

Thus we can’t deduce anything meaningful from the corporate statements, since they’d likely be the same either way, right?

329 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:35:17pm

re: #321 McSpiff

Uhh, maybe you worked on the policy side, because there’s absolutely nothing on the technical side to block it. The amount of traffic you can mirror to CALEA devices is mind blowing and there’s absolutely nothing in the silicon or firmware to block a user with proper access from doing a pretty wide sweep.

Right!

That’s why the people talking about these things, doing these things, are important!

Point of information: Technical *and* policy are in my wheelhouse here.

It’s easy to figure out who I am and what I’ve done. Never made any bones about it.

I tell you three times: the people who work with this tech are good people, concerned about the rights of man, balanced against an asymmetrical war of information. Maybe a couple have been iffy, but the others tend to stop him or her, unless everything goes pear-shaped.

This is one of the reasons Snowden pisses me off so mightily.

I know good men and women who would never do what this idiot has: abused his access.

330 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:38:39pm
331 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:38:58pm

re: #327 marxmarv

Ah! That’s better.

Granted, I haven’t heard of people lately who are making that sort of money, but I haven’t been in much contact with my old circle of peeps. I do know there were people making $60/hr for remote NOC work.

You may be better positioned to speak to this than me: how much downward pressure is there on a contractor’s wages when the consulting firm has a cost-plus contract? If there isn’t very much, and the contract Snowden got in Hawaii was by a cost-plus contractor, that might come close to explaining it.

(edit for clarity in italics)

From my contacts at BAH, Snowden’s contract is decidedly odd.

My capstone prof was a BAH dude, and one of my MS classmates scored a BAH job. They got about half of what Snowden did; maybe 2/3rds, at best. Granted, this was 2000/2001.

I suspect Snowden’s Daddy here.

332 BishopX  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:40:01pm

re: #320 klys

There are always conspiracy theories run amok, the problem is that there isn’t really any counterbalance aside from anonymous admin officials and there are senators telling us not to trust them either.

My personal take in line with McSpiff’s #321. Snowden was a systems guy, he probably had a reasonably good handle on what the system could do, but not necessarily what it was allowed to do. Also, given the fact that he was working at a remote location for a contractor n a rapidly growing industry (this sector didn’t really exist 10 years ago) I wouldn’t be surprisined if some of the access controls were a little bit lighter than they should have been. They would explain some of his more outlandish claims about access as well the ease that he pulled this off.

Given the scope of these projects I imagine he got some of the details wrong as well (most people screw up remembering the details of a $1 million dollar project, much less a $1 billion dollar one).

333 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:44:08pm

re: #329 chadu

Right!

That’s why the people talking about these things, doing these things, are important!

Point of information: Technical *and* policy are in my wheelhouse here.

It’s easy to figure out who I am and what I’ve done. Never made any bones about it.

I tell you three times: the people who work with this tech are good people, concerned about the rights of man, balanced against an asymmetrical war of information. Maybe a couple have been iffy, but the others tend to stop him or her, unless everything goes pear-shaped.

This is one of the reasons Snowden pisses me off so mightily.

I know good men and women who would never do what this idiot has: abused his access.

I guess my perspective is different. I’m on the vendor side. I just know what we can send down the wire. The capabilities are mind blowing. It would be incredibly easy to abuse, but I suspect you already know that. And there’s really no way for anyone outside of a relatively small community to verify that. Congress can only trust they’re being told the whole truth. We can only trust that behind closed doors that they’re acting in the American’s people best interest.

334 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:44:27pm
335 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:44:54pm
336 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:45:10pm

Rand Paul mocks Rick Perry: Can’t remember third good reason for him to be president

“Well, I don’t know about what I’ve decided yet, but if Governor Perry decides to run for president, I think there are three good reasons he could be president,” he said on Fox News’ Hannity. “You know, Texas is a big, successful state; he’s a long-term governor — I can’t remember the third one, but, uh.”

First off, Texas isn’t a successful state.

Second, Perry still has one up on Rand using these points.

337 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:47:33pm

re: #332 BishopX

There are always conspiracy theories run amok, the problem is that there isn’t really any counterbalance aside from anonymous admin officials and there are senators telling us not to trust them either.

My personal take in line with McSpiff’s #321. Snowden was a systems guy, he probably had a reasonably good handle on what the system could do, but not necessarily what it was allowed to do. Also, given the fact that he was working at a remote location for a contractor n a rapidly growing industry (this sector didn’t really exist 10 years ago) I wouldn’t be surprisined if some of the access controls were a little bit lighter than they should have been. They would explain some of his more outlandish claims about access as well the ease that he pulled this off.

Given the scope of these projects I imagine he got some of the details wrong as well (most people screw up remembering the details of a $1 million dollar project, much less a $1 billion dollar one).

QFT.

338 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:52:31pm
339 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:54:18pm

re: #333 McSpiff

I guess my perspective is different. I’m on the vendor side. I just know what we can send down the wire. The capabilities are mind blowing. It would be incredibly easy to abuse, but I suspect you already know that. And there’s really no way for anyone outside of a relatively small community to verify that. Congress can only trust they’re being told the whole truth. We can only trust that behind closed doors that they’re acting in the American’s people best interest.

I really do truly believe Obama added a layer of accountability (which we may or may not ever see; I’m in favor of more transparency, but from rumblings I’ve heard, it’s better than it was under Bush. Cold comfort, given the warrant appeals process, but it’s something.)

And yes: the tech is amazingly easy to abuse. Which is why I really appreciate the folks I work with, who know that, and try to do the right thing.

Also, I believe Congress is being told the truth that they can understand. I’ve heard stories from the other end.

People being honest, but dumbing down the info so non-tech people can understand. The public confusion over metadata and full recordings is NOTHING like what I’ve heard on the QT.

340 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:55:49pm

re: #335 Gus

[Embedded content]

You ignored Peter Tork.

341 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:56:45pm

re: #336 Kragar

Rand Paul mocks Rick Perry: Can’t remember third good reason for him to be president

First off, Texas isn’t a successful state.

Second, Perry still has one up on Rand using these points.

Ah, they are starting to consume one another.

Please proceed.

342 Gus  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 9:57:47pm
343 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:00:08pm

re: #339 chadu

I really do truly believe Obama added a layer of accountability (which we may or may not ever see; I’m in favor of more transparency, but from rumblings I’ve heard, it’s better than it was under Bush. Cold comfort, given the warrant appeals process, but it’s something.)

And yes: the tech is amazingly easy to abuse. Which is why I really appreciate the folks I work with, who know that, and try to do the right thing.

Also, I believe Congress is being told the truth that they can understand. I’ve heard stories from the other end.

People being honest, but dumbing down the info so non-tech people can understand. The public confusion over metadata and full recordings is NOTHING like what I’ve heard on the QT.

I’m seriously glad to hear that, especially about increased over sight. I like to think my country (Canada), has similar people working for it. I think we do. My first exposure to this stuff was a bunch of questions from a customer in the former Soviet Sphere. Made my eyes bulge. I still avoid the DPI stuff, creeps me out a bit.

Hope I haven’t dumbed things down too much in this thread, we can get into the finer points of 3GPP compliance if you’d like ;-)

344 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:04:57pm

re: #342 Gus

Dio, who started like this:

Youtube Video

and would evolve later into:

Youtube Video

345 jonhendry  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:08:39pm

re: #170 Vicious Babushka

Pamela usually posts the misspelled rages. Dim Jim uses spell check on his rages.

Too bad there’s no “cognition check” he could use.

346 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:08:44pm

And some of Dio’s best work, with the band Elf, in their 1972 album Elf, playing some great Honky Tonk rock

Youtube Video

347 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:11:52pm

Ok folks, time for me to head out. Thanks for all the interesting perspective.

348 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:15:52pm

re: #171 klys

another route is to take I 70 over the Rockies and then do south to Moab in Utah and spend some time in Arches and Canyonlands…. but then I suspect you already knew that. From there, Monument Valley and Grand Canyon are also extremely doable.

349 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:16:55pm

What the hell do I know? I argue like a Republican.

And I walk like an Egyptian.

Youtube Video

And at 2:47-ish, you’ll see why I fell into eternal lust for Susanna Hoffs.

350 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:18:48pm

re: #343 McSpiff

Hope I haven’t dumbed things down too much in this thread, we can get into the finer points of 3GPP compliance if you’d like ;-)

No, no, that’s fine.

I can edit the 3GPP stuff that comes across my desk, but full understanding escapes me. ;)

351 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:20:07pm

You dudes and dudettes have really turned my head around on Dio. SRSLY.

Muchas gracias!

352 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:24:29pm

re: #344 Kragar

HOLY CRAP.

It’s like Rush had a mutant baby with Yes and Black Sabbath.

Now I’m pissed off at all the burnouts in junior high who claimed to love Dio, and kept me away from this.

353 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:27:46pm

re: #328 gunnison

If Snowden’s assertions are true, then the corporations’ denials still make sense, for the very reason you articulate.

Thus we can’t deduce anything meaningful from the corporate statements, since they’d likely be the same either way, right?

Wrong. You’re looking at the situation as if everybody thinks myopically, only in the short term. The personalities behind Google and Facebook, as cutthroat as they may be are trying to build lasting legacies. They’d rather say nothing than risk getting caught years later having outright lied.

re: #326 jdoc1357

Yes, gag orders require you to lie by omission at the very least.

Wrong, they require you not to discuss something publicly, only with your lawyers. That’s not lying by omission anymore than a wife refusing to testify against her husband is lying. Lying by omission means actively attempting to deceive, not shutting up.

The lie that companies like Facebook and Verizon have been required to help promote and maintain is that the government was not collecting data on the communications of tens or hundreds of millions of innocent people, in part by requiring Facebook and Verizon to put their networks at the service of that conspiracy.

You’re make massive assumptions about whats being required and making them in the complete absence of any proof, labeling things as lies that you have no proof are lies, simply because you want them to be. Yes the corporate denials do seem to be carefully parsed and that should be kept in mind, but they relate to “direct access” to their systems and not what you claim “collecting data on the communications of tens or hundreds of millions of innocent people.” It’s incredibly dishonest, and ironically so, to so thoroughly misrepresent the actual statements that have been made.

All these kinds of lies, and probably a few other kinds of lies, can be acceptable under the gag order.

Except they’re not all lies, only active attempts to deceive are lies and nobody’s required to do that. Simply refusing to comment is a perfectly valid response, and is almost always the preferred one when under any gag order. If they are all lying, and while plausible that’s not at all proven, then it’s both needless and utterly against their long term interests.

354 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:28:17pm

re: #352 chadu

HOLY CRAP.

It’s like Rush had a mutant baby with Yes and Black Sabbath.

Now I’m pissed off at all the burnouts in junior high who claimed to love Dio, and kept me away from this.

Allow me to blow your mind with Dio covering Rod Stewart and putting Rod to shame.

Youtube Video

355 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:34:43pm

And back to 1963 Dio:

Youtube Video

356 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:37:00pm

re: #354 Kragar

Allow me to blow your mind with Dio covering Rod Stewart and putting Rod to shame.

[Embedded content]

I think my brain just twisted into ice cream monkey butter jazz hands.

F’ing awez.

357 chadu  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:40:41pm

re: #355 Kragar

And back to 1963 Dio:

[Embedded content]

Please tell me there’s an Essentials Dio collection.

358 piratedan  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:43:07pm

re: #276 dragonath

Why do German philosophers have the weirdest fans?

because they never learned to oscillate? //

359 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:44:32pm

re: #357 chadu

Please tell me there’s an Essentials Dio collection.

Nothing really for his early stuff. Most of the collections cover his metal days, from the late 70s onwards.

360 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:54:57pm

The activity surrounding the new iron mine the GOP has rammed through up in northern Wisconsin is concerning.

Wisconsin lawmakers ask Gogebic Taconite to remove armed guards

Two Wisconsin lawmakers have asked the president of Gogebic Taconite to remove armed security guards from the company’s proposed mining site in Ashland and Iron counties.

Bob Seitz, Gogebic Taconite spokesman, told the News Tribune that the company began employing private security guards after teams of mining opponents “dressed in black and wearing masks violently attacked our drill site” in June.

State Sen. Bob Jauch, D-Poplar, and Rep. Janet Bewley, D-Ashland, on Monday sent a letter to Gogebic Taconite President Bill Williams, calling on him to immediately remove “the heavily armed masked commando security unit recently hired to protect the company’s property in the Penokee Hills.”

Several photographs of armed guards dressed in military-style camouflage and combat gear, apparently working for the Arizona-based Bulletproof Securities Force, have appeared on anti-mining blogs in recent days. In one photo, one of the guards, armed with an assault-style rifle, appears to be masked.

361 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:04:06pm

Wisconsin Abortion Law Signed By Gov. Scott Walker Blocked By Judge

A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order Monday evening to block enforcement of a new Wisconsin law that bans doctors who lack admitting privileges at nearby hospitals from performing abortions.

U.S. District Judge William Conley granted the order following a hearing in a lawsuit filed Friday by Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin and Affiliated Medical Services. It alleged the requirement would unconstitutionally restrict the availability of abortions in the state, violates the U.S. Constitution’s due process guarantee and unconstitutionally treats doctors who perform abortions differently from those who perform other procedures.

The restraining order will remain in place pending a fuller hearing July 17. In his ruling, Conley said “there is a troubling lack of justification for the hospital admitting privileges requirement.” He said the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states must prove that restrictions on abortion rights must be reasonably aimed at preserving the mother’s health.

“Moreover, the record to date strongly supports a finding that no medical purpose is served by this requirement,” he said.

362 Kragar  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:06:39pm

re: #361 Amory Blaine

Wisconsin Abortion Law Signed By Gov. Scott Walker Blocked By Judge

Same shit will end up happening in Texas

363 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:25:46pm

re: #360 Amory Blaine

The activity surrounding the new iron mine the GOP has rammed through up in northern Wisconsin is concerning.

Wisconsin lawmakers ask Gogebic Taconite to remove armed guards

Better link


More pics of the site. Which is public land by the way.

364 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:27:07pm
Conspiracy theories are like black holes—they suck in everything that comes their way, regardless of content or origin…Everything you’ve ever known or experienced, no matter how ‘meaningless’, once it contacts the conspiratorial universe, is enveloped by and cloaked in sinister significance. Once inside, the vortex gains in size and strength, sucking in everything you touch.

-Donna Kossy, Kooks: A Guide to the Outer Limits of Human Belief pg. 191

365 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:36:39pm

re: #363 Amory Blaine

Here’s a video of a “confrontation”
Youtube Video

366 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 8, 2013 11:37:50pm

Someone needs to step in and ease tension ASAP.

367 uriel  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:36:45am

re: #10 Varek Raith

If what Snowden says is true, the NSA is the largest archive of porn in existence.

I’ll admit it: after a year+ of doing the blog-voyer thing, I had to sign up to up-ding this comment. It’s just that awsome.

That said, hello world and whatnot.

368 EdDantes  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:45:05am

re: #367 uriel

I’ll admit it: after a year+ of doing the blog-voyer thing, I had to sign up to up-ding this comment. It’s just that awsome.

That said, hello world and whatnot.

Welcome, blog-voyeur and whatever! Although I shouldn’t welcome you because I am barely tolerated here myself. :)

369 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:31:07am

re: #335 Gus

If we come from Monkees, why does Michael Nesmith still exist?

Because Peter Torqued

370 EdDantes  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:32:40am

re: #369 Sol Berdinowitz

Because Peter Torqued

..And Davey Jonesed.

371 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:34:10am

re: #370 EdDantes

..And Davey Jonesed.

You may doubt Mike Nesmith’s existence, but I’m a believer…

372 EdDantes  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:36:27am

re: #371 Sol Berdinowitz

Not a trace of doubt in my mind.

373 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:38:42am

And people say we’re monkeying around…

374 EdDantes  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:40:57am

Were to busy singin’ to put anybody down.

375 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 2:05:36am

re: #9 klys

Just for the NSA:

I heard the unmistakable sounds of a hairball in progress far too late to make sure the cat was on a solid floor. Anyone want to put bets on whether they were on the carpet? (I haven’t gone to look yet.)

Was your cat just responding to a gay wedding posting on FB?

376 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 2:08:40am

re: #363 Amory Blaine

Corporate fascism under Republican leadership?

377 EdDantes  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 2:14:23am

re: #376 Justanotherhuman

Another pleasant valley sunday.

378 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 2:18:21am

re: #46 Decatur Deb

The whole fuckn’ Department of Defense violates the “separation between church and state” in the view of Amish and Quaker taxpayers. Get over it.

Employers are free to tell their employees that they disapprove of contraceptives. They can tell them that they disapprove of alcohol, pornography and heavy metal music.

But they cannot forbid employees from purchasing said articles with their pay/benefits.

They can even say that they disapprove of handguns in homes with small children, but they won’t because they love our freedoms.

379 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 2:22:30am

re: #131 Lidane

Opponents of TX abortion legislation chanting: “racist, sexist, anti-gay, right-wing bigots go away.”

No, they are chanting “Hail Satan, we are racist sex fiends, writhing bigamists and all gay!”

380 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 2:26:31am

re: #154 compound_Idaho

Insure the catastrophic, not the routine.

The point is that routine coverage, when applied reasonably, is a cheaper alternative than catastrophic coverage. That is what drives a lot of costs in America: instead of getting checkups and medications that might cost a few hundred dollars, people ignore their conditions and wind up needing operations and therapy that run into thousands.

381 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 3:35:54am

re: #115 compound_Idaho

Agreed. Hospital stays, major stuff, OK. I get the impression that the whole contraception stuff is just is just to put a finger in the eye of Catholics (‘m not Catholic nor particularly religious)

These deliberate, repeat displays of ignorance get really old. Catholic schools like Georgetown aren’t being forced to pay for anything, students there pay for their own health insurance, which currently runs $193.75 per month / $2325 a year. With a $200 ($250 out of network) deductible, the Georgetown “Premier” plan only covers 80% of the preferred allowance for most care at Georgetown Hospital and 70% or less of the usual and customary price for out of network care. The Georgetown plan also has a $300K combined maximum benefit limit, which it is allowed to have as a SHIP (Student Health Insurance Plan.) In normal individual and group plans the ACA will make such limits illegal starting next year with regards to essential health benefits.

What are “essential health benefits”:

Essential health benefits must include items and services within at least the following 10 categories: ambulatory patient services; emergency services; hospitalization; maternity and newborn care; mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

So you see, in reality Georgetown isn’t paying for a goddamned thing. Instead it charges its students a $77 per head “administration fee” for the convenience of having the school negotiate, on their behalf, a shitty little, sub par health plan that has no maximum out of pocket protection. Then in a massive display of balls, Georgetown whines when it can’t use religion to mandate that plan be even shittier for women.

382 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 3:36:32am

re: #112 efuseakay

Maybe it’s just a temporary glitch in my Internet access, but the BBC may have hurt China’s feelings with this story. The BBC website appears to be blocked by the Great Firewall.

But I read the story on a news aggregator. Since the period in question is 1950-1980 — as in, primarily the Mao years — China’s censors probably took offense. Criticizing government policy of that era is strictly forbidden here, especially the monumental failures of Mao’s Great Leap Forward. If you visit the National Museum in Beijing, for example, there is no mention of the great famine spawned by Mao’s wrong-headed, but very idealistic agriculture policy, and only a passing reference to the Cultural Revolution.

So, the Chinese of the north got to stay warm in the winter then, but years later they and their kids fell victim to respiratory diseases. And coal is still widely used all over China for heating and cooking, not to mention electrical generation.

I don’t intend to retire there.

383 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 3:40:31am

re: #381 goddamnedfrank

These deliberate, repeat displays of ignorance get really old.

I get a feeling that the people who push this spin are aware of the nuances, they just want to make it sound like Obama is forcing young women to be sluts.

384 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 4:22:49am

Wondering how we got from “there” to “here”? How the ante got upped in electoral politics and lobbyists took over.

Casino Jack and the United States of Money: Youtube Video

So, why aren’t Ralph Reed and others in jail? Is it any wonder that we now have billion dollar presidential campaigns?

385 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 4:31:59am

re: #384 Justanotherhuman

Is it any wonder that we now have billion dollar presidential campaigns?

“If elections really changed anything, they would be forbidden”

Kurt Tucholsky

386 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 4:32:56am

Sad, sad story about fascism disguised as religion and superstition. So reminiscent of what’s going on in the US today. Yes, it can happen here.

Child’s pregnancy sets off Chile abortion debate

usatoday.com

387 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 4:45:59am

re: #385 Sol Berdinowitz

Only a romantic idealist, or anarchist (maybe they’re the same?), could say something like that. Human beings are far more complex.

388 Nemesis6  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:09:34am

re: #2 Kragar

Hasn’t proven? Are you delusional?

389 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:16:39am

re: #388 Nemesis6

re: #2 Kragar

Hasn’t proven? Are you delusional?

Allegations aren’t proof. And no, I don’t think he is—but are you? In a court of law, what Snowden has would simply be evidence that he’s a common thief, nothing more.

390 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:17:05am

re: #388 Nemesis6

Hasn’t proven? Are you delusional?

What do you feel he’s proved?

391 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:37:36am

I’m just checking in to say OH HAI before I have to perform my civic responsibility as a juror. And I don’t get paid for jury duty, so that sucks. (The last company I worked for gave half pay for jury duty)

I don’t think I can even get on Teh Twitters, they probably do not let you take smartphones into the courtroom.

392 steve_davis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:42:34am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

I could not listen to more than 30 seconds of that whiny bitchy little voice.

HOW DID THAT FUCKBALL GET A $62/HR JOB WITH BOOZ ALLEN

That is the Great Unanswered Question.

He’s the only person in existence who ever replied to one of those comments in threads that read “I agree with John who couldn’t believe his Aunt Lin Lin made 8500 dollars a month selling sanitary napkins to gerbils….”

393 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:45:46am

re: #391 Vicious Babushka

You’ll get paid a pittance by the State. In NC, it’s $12 the first day, and $20/day up to 5 days. Thereafter, it’s $40/day.

394 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:49:33am

re: #379 Sol Berdinowitz

No, they are chanting “Hail Satan, we are racist sex fiends, writhing bigamists and all gay!”

And “We have cookies!”

395 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 5:59:12am

re: #381 goddamnedfrank:

The PPACA now allows people to stay on their parents insurance plans through age 26, making it easier for these students (essentially most undergrads and some grads) to get insurance coverage with reasonable terms and that doesn’t tie them to having to deal with the school’s weak coverages and religious dictates.

396 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:05:26am

What most Americans don’t seem to get. Obamacare’s implementation isn’t going to be held up at the federal level despite every attempt by the House GOP to repeal (37 and counting - and how many White House tours does that cost?).

It’s the states whose GOPers are dragging their feet and kicking and screaming to implement the provisions of the health exchanges and other provisions to expand access to health insurance.

Some states are ahead of the game - those who took the federal funds to implement early and who have been working to get the plans in place. Others are doing everything imaginable to thwart the implementation, and when they don’t do it in a timely fashion, blame Obama for the failure of the program.

397 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:07:00am
398 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:10:51am

While Snowden and Greenwald are busy yakking away about so-far unsupported allegations, WebMD and other health care websides are busy sharing information you provide about your medical conditions to third parties…


Government and professional medical group sites were less likely to track user data than commercial ones and this isn’t covered by HIPAA. While HIPAA prohibits the disclosure of personal medical information, it has no such restriction on the collection of health data for commercial purposes.

399 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:18:40am

Sigh. We just found out that because our idiot governor(Nathan Deal) and his cronies in the State House changed the standing of the agency that would allow my son to go to a special school for autistic young adults, the funding has been fucked to the point that there may not be an opening for him for another YEAR. We’ve already been waiting since Feb.

Before they took this agency out of the Dept of Labor and made it a stand alone agency, the funding was never held up. It may have been cut here and there, but not decimated and held up like this. My son’s vocational rehabilitation caseworker said she’s been doing this job for over 20 years and she’s never seen such a clusterfuck in her entire career.

The truly sucky thing about this, beyond the obvious, is that if he gets a job or goes to school, even if he fails miserably, they will close his case file and it will negate his eligibility for this program. So thanks Gov. Deal, you butthead.

Another tidbit. Our former Sec of Labor managed to get 10 million dollars in stimulus money to build this school back in 2011. The school has been open since Feb of 2012. So isn’t it a big waste of taxpayer money to just let this program fall apart? Or maybe that’s the whole idea, another BRILLIANT “starve the beast” GOP idea. I’m so freaking PISSED right now I could scream. The worst part? Having to tell my son, that once again, something that was promised to him has been jerked out from under his feet. I now have to try to figure out what to do with no money and no help. I really want to cry.

400 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:19:51am

re: #398 lawhawk

People mistrust the government and then turn a blind eye to corps… data collection for the sake of advertising is insanely rampant. Ad folks know much more about you than the government will ever care to, and THAT is where the real invasion of privacy goes on.

401 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:20:46am

re: #399 A Mom Anon

So sorry to hear this

402 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:24:56am

re: #391 Vicious Babushka

What the heck are you supposed to do all day without the twitters?

403 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:25:58am

re: #400 twisty

But isn’t that Snowden’s real intentions? To tout “free enterprise” and stifle govt at all costs? It’s the libertarian way. This guy’s hubris is only exceeded by his total lack of political consciousness and how the world really works.

404 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:25:59am

I haven’t read through the comments yet (sorry), but I have a couple of questions:

1. Has anyone ever confirmed that Snowden was on the Hong Kong>Moscow flight? I find it very odd that they telescoped their flight plan in advance of arrival.

2. Has anyone seen Snowden since he surfaced in HK?

3. When was the last time he was seen in person by anyone?

This whole affair does not add up to me. No matter what scenarios I think through, it just doesn’t sit right.

405 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:28:04am

re: #404 Joanne

Yeah, that’s been my thing since he supposedly ended up in Moscow. Who has seen him? Where is he really? No one seems to have said, including Snowden himself, unless I missed something.

406 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:32:16am

re: #403 Justanotherhuman

Sure does seem like it.

407 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:32:32am

Will the judge allow an expensive animation video created by the defense, and in lieu of testimony by Zimmerman himself, as “evidence” of what might have happened on the night of Feb 26, 2012? After all, you can’t question the video, just the maker of it, as his interpretation of events on what he was told by the defense.

408 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:38:45am

re: #402 Bulworth

What the heck are you supposed to do all day without the twitters?

One could come down with a case of the twitters from lack of, ahh, err, teh twitters.

409 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:39:01am

re: #407 Justanotherhuman

Will the judge allow an expensive animation video created by the defense, and in lieu of testimony by Zimmerman himself, as “evidence” of what might have happened on the night of Feb 26, 2012? After all, you can’t question the video, just the maker of it, as his interpretation of events on what he was told by the defense.

WTF-itty F-ing F? Why not have guys dressed in Gumby suits act it out in the courtroom?

And if Zimimermann is acquitted will it be followed up by an OJ Simpson-style “If I Did It” video?

410 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:43:17am

Jury selection getting underway in the Fort Hood Massacre:


Hasan will be able to question his victims and survivors of the massacre he perpetrated. For victims, this will be yet another indignity opening still sore emotional trauma and the situation reminds me (and many others, including those who wrote the article) of another infamous case where a mass murderer represented himself in court and engaged in a most bizarre cross of witnesses - Colin Ferguson (the LIRR massacre killer). Expect the judge to give him some leeway, but will come down hard if he tries to claim that his actions were justified to defend others or if he begins badgering witnesses to his murderous rampage.

411 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:43:44am


Correction:Screenshot of derp

412 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:44:50am

Mornin’ everyone…

413 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:45:27am

re: #407 Justanotherhuman

I’m not sure the judge will allow it since it amounts to hearsay. It’s an attempt by the defense to avoid Zimmerman testifying in his own defense where his version of events could be picked apart by the prosecution.

414 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:48:44am

re: #410 lawhawk

Just tell me this trial won’t be televised. The victims and witnesses deserve that much respect, and Hasan doesn’t deserve the international platform CNN would provide.

415 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:48:46am
416 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:49:38am

re: #413 lawhawk

I’m not sure the judge will allow it since it amounts to hearsay. It’s an attempt by the defense to avoid Zimmerman testifying in his own defense where his version of events could be picked apart by the prosecution.

Wouldn’t see why Zimmerman would need to testify, considering his version of events has been recounted to the jury six separate times.

417 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:50:41am

Heartbreaker of a game last night. Fell asleep in the bottom of the 13th and woke up later to see the game still on. Dreamed the Giants lost in 25, but it was only 16 innings…though they still lost.

418 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:52:12am

re: #416 Targetpractice

Zimmerman strikes me as the kind of person who wants to go and testify because he thinks he’s done nothing wrong and hopes that he can convince his attorney to do so. The video may have been an attempt at a compromise.

419 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:55:32am

re: #416 Targetpractice

Wouldn’t see why Zimmerman would need to testify, considering his version of events has been recounted to the jury six separate times.

Sure, the defense wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to present an animation based on Zimmerman’s account, without cross examination. Bullshit, if he wants to testify to the events of that night…take the stand!

420 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:55:44am

re: #418 lawhawk

Zimmerman strikes me as the kind of person who wants to go and testify because he thinks he’s done nothing wrong and hopes that he can convince his attorney to do so. The video may have been an attempt at a compromise.

I’ve heard the suggestion before, and I just don’t see it. Zimmerman taking the stand would likely be against advice of counsel and with the understanding that it would do more harm than good to his defense.

421 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:01:11am

re: #413 lawhawk

I’m not sure the judge will allow it since it amounts to hearsay. It’s an attempt by the defense to avoid Zimmerman testifying in his own defense where his version of events could be picked apart by the prosecution.

There’s no way an animated video would be allowed. So many ways to influence a jury there. First, you can shade the characters - make Zimmerman lighter and smaller, Martin darker and larger, then you can change body language - make Zimmerman look feeble and scared, while Martin looks menacing and stalking.

If the Judge allowed that, the prosecution should call for a mistrial.

422 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:04:39am

WTF is a “forensic animation expert”? How can it be “forensic” when it’s based on hearsay? It’s certainly not “scientific” evidence that could be proved from expert to expert.

423 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:04:45am

re: #418 lawhawk

Zimmerman strikes me as the kind of person who wants to go and testify because he thinks he’s done nothing wrong and hopes that he can convince his attorney to do so. The video may have been an attempt at a compromise.

I hope you’re right. I hope he wants to take the stand. I was thinking the, “He’s just a big pussy who’d get his ass kicked by a five year old.” defense might be enough to elicit enough anger in Zimmerman he’d want to take the stand. Unfortunately, I don’t think his lawyer, knock-knock jokes aside, is dumb enough to allow it.

424 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:06:30am

re: #422 Justanotherhuman

WTF is a “forensic animation expert”? How can it be “forensic” when it’s based on hearsay? It’s certainly not “scientific” evidence that could be proved from expert to expert.

This

425 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:07:25am

re: #422 Justanotherhuman

WTF is a “forensic animation expert”? How can it be “forensic” when it’s based on hearsay? It’s certainly not “scientific” evidence that could be proved from expert to expert.

It’s an animation based upon evidence in the file. Whether folks wish to acknowledge it or not, testimony is treated as evidence in absence of contradictory evidence.

426 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:08:42am

re: #422 Justanotherhuman

It’s an attempt to do crime scene reconstructions using scientific data gathered from the scene. However, as we’ve come to know, the Sanford PD and investigators didn’t exactly break a sweat in investigating the killing.

427 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:09:42am

re: #425 Targetpractice

But it’s not direct testimony—it’s hearsay. This is not forensics or direct testimony—it’s an imaginary scenario cooked up by Z. If he wants to give testimony, he’s free to do that. This allows him to avoid perjury.

428 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:11:04am

re: #416 Targetpractice

Wouldn’t see why Zimmerman would need to testify, considering his version of events has been recounted to the jury six separate times.

Zimmerman 6
Martin 0

And now they want to present an animation for yet another opportunity for Zimmerman to testify with impunity.

429 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:11:10am

re: #427 Justanotherhuman

But it’s not direct testimony—it’s hearsay. This is not forensics or direct testimony—it’s an imaginary scenario cooked up by Z. If he wants to give testimony, he’s free to do that. This allows him to avoid perjury.

He testified on four separate occasions to police, each time under oath. That testimony is as good as if he gave it on the stand at this trial.

430 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:14:36am

re: #429 Targetpractice

No it isn’t. Was he even given Miranda warnings initially? He had 2 months in which to cook up his own version of events before he was arrested as a suspect.

As far as I’m concerned, his friendship with the Sanford PD has colored this event from the start.

431 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:14:49am

re: #429 Targetpractice

He testified on four separate occasions to police, each time under oath. That testimony is as good as if he gave it on the stand at this trial.

Maybe the animation will show how Martin’s hands were found underneath his body after Zimmerman said he spread his arms out to each side.

Somehow I doubt it.

432 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:15:02am

re: #427 Justanotherhuman

The onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If the defense feels they didn’t do this, then no worries, right? But they’re worries about the manslaughter charge now, which getting out of the car pretty much confirms, as by Zimmerman’s own account, he followed Martin, not the other way around. The whole purpose of the animation would be to twist that part of the narrative, and seed doubt into the jury.

Or maybe we should just have competing animations, and let the jury pick the winner.

433 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:15:10am

Dear Repubs, Eff You.

434 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:15:59am

re: #430 Justanotherhuman

No it isn’t. Was he even given Miranda warnings initially? He had 2 months in which to cook up his own version of events before he was arrested as a suspect.

As far as I’m concerned, his friendship with the Sanford PD has colored this event from the start.

He was taken into custody the night of the shooting and gave his testimony twice that evening, once at the reconstruction, and again in the “challenge” interview the same day. And yes, he was made aware of Miranda each time.

435 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:16:53am

re: #432 darthstar

The onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If the defense feels they didn’t do this, then no worries, right? But they’re worries about the manslaughter charge now, which getting out of the car pretty much confirms, as by Zimmerman’s own account, he followed Martin, not the other way around. The whole purpose of the animation would be to twist that part of the narrative, and seed doubt into the jury.

Or maybe we should just have competing animations, and let the jury pick the winner.

Reasonable doubt exists for the self-defense jury instruction, which the Defense has made clear they do not feel that the State has successfully overcome.

436 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:18:15am

re: #435 Targetpractice

Reasonable doubt exists for the self-defense jury instruction, which the Defense has made clear they do not feel that the State has successfully overcome.

Defense never does.

437 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:18:26am

re: #435 Targetpractice

Reasonable doubt exists for the self-defense jury instruction, which the Defense has made clear they do not feel that the State has successfully overcome.

That is the wonder of SYG: as long as you leave no living witness, there is often nobody to contradict your version of events.

438 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:18:39am

re: #435 Targetpractice

Zimmerman wasn’t arrested until April 11, 2012. The killing happened on 2/26/2012. You don’t get a Miranda warning if you’re simply considered a “witness”, which is how he was treated by the Sanford PD prior to his arrest.

439 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:18:55am

re: #437 Sol Berdinowitz

That is the wonder of SYG: as long as you leave no living witness, there is often nobody to contradict your version of events.

It’s not SYG, it’s classic self-defense.

440 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:19:51am

re: #438 Justanotherhuman

Zimmerman wasn’t arrested until April 11, 2012. The killing happened on 2/26/2012. You don’t get a Miranda warning if you’re simply considered a “witness”, which is how he was treated by the Sanford PD prior to his arrest.

You’re free to pull up his testimony to police and prove me wrong, but they’ve already admitted on the stand that he was Mirandized, made aware he had the right to have an attorney present while he gave his testimony, and waived that right.

441 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:20:29am

I’m shocked, shocked:


Youtube Video

442 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:20:37am

re: #439 Targetpractice

It’s not SYG, it’s classic self-defense.

Standard self-defense also posits that you make every effort to flee unless you are in your own home, SYG has made it possible to go and accost someone and still claim SD.

And I hate to say it, but between the letter of the law and the way the police handled it, it will be nearly impossible to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

443 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:21:56am

re: #442 Sol Berdinowitz

Standard self-defense also posits that you make every effort to flee unless you are in your own home, SYG has made it possible to go and accost someone and still claim SD.

And I hate to say it, but between the letter of the law and the way the police handled it, it will be nearly impossible to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman was pinned on the ground and was unable to wriggle free, which would meet the inability to flee requirement.

444 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:23:37am

re: #443 Targetpractice

Zimmerman was pinned on the ground and was unable to wriggle free, which would meet the inability to flee requirement.

Nobody knows if he was unable to wriggle free, so stating it as a fact is really silly.

445 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:23:41am

re: #439 Targetpractice

It’s not SYG, it’s classic self-defense.

Initially they looked at it as SYG.

446 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:25:00am

I just hope that, if they find him guilty, the jury delivers the verdict as a knock-knock joke.

447 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:25:47am

re: #444 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Nobody knows if he was unable to wriggle free, so stating it as a fact is really silly.

Well, there is no evidence that he broke free prior to the shot.

448 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:26:18am

Laser like focus on jobs and the economy:


Scheduling yet another vote to repeal Obamacare that will never pass beyond a House vote.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

Under the definition of insanity, the GOP leadership photo now resides. 37 votes that went nowhere will now be 38 once this latest attempt to repeal fails.

449 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:26:18am

re: #443 Targetpractice

Based on what Zimmerman said. Were they rolling on the ground? Both were wet?

There was only one person who said for sure that Zimmerman was on the ground and part of what he said was based on sound reverberation (it was him screaming based on where the sound was coming from - and why the state didn’t ask for his expertise on that is beyond me.)

450 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:26:34am

re: #439 Targetpractice

The burden of proof is on you, not me, to show he was treated as a suspect on the night of 2/26/2012. If he had been, he would have been arrested on the spot, and he was not until 4/11/2012, at which time he would have been read his Miranda rights.

He was bandaged by EMS, not taken in front of a magistrate on 2/26.

451 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:27:33am

re: #449 Joanne

Based on what Zimmerman said. Were they rolling on the ground? Both were wet?

There was only one person who said for sure that Zimmerman was on the ground and part of what he said was based on sound reverberation (it was him screaming based on where the sound was coming from - and why the state didn’t ask for his expertise on that is beyond me.)

The back of Zimmerman’s clothing was soaked and covered in grass clippings, which was matched by the same on the front of Martin’s pants.

452 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:28:49am

re: #450 Justanotherhuman

The burden of proof is on you, not me, to show he was treated as a suspect on the night of 2/26/2012. If he had been, he would have been arrested on the spot, and he was not until 4/11/2012, at which time he would have been read his Miranda rights.

He was bandaged by EMS, not taken in front of a magistrate on 2/26.

He was taken into custody, but not arrested, the night of the shooting. Detective Singleton made it clear at the time that he was not free to leave at any time.

453 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:29:33am

re: #443 Targetpractice

Zimmerman was pinned on the ground and was unable to wriggle free, which would meet the inability to flee requirement.

Yet he was able to grab his gun which was near his back on the right side of his body and he is left handed.

454 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:31:38am

re: #447 Targetpractice

Well, there is no evidence that he broke free prior to the shot.

Sure. That isn’t in the least bit, at all, evidence that he current wriggle free. The evidence also doesn’t show any proof that he tried to fight back or resist in any other way other than firing his gun.

455 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:32:04am

Hello I am back from the courthouse. We are all excused. Of the two trials scheduled for today, one case was dismissed and the other the defendant pled out, so no jury required.

The judges came and gave a nice little presentation.

I plan on going to work this afternoon.

Oh and there was no WiFi in the jury room.

456 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:32:36am

re: #453 blueraven

Yet he was able to grab his gun which was near his back on the right side of his body and he is left handed.

The holster was towards the front of his body and he’s been trained to fire using both hands, same as any law enforcement officer.

457 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:33:28am

Oh and HAPPY RAMADAN to all the Muslim Lizards!

458 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:34:38am

re: #454 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Sure. That isn’t in the least bit, at all, evidence that he current wriggle free. The evidence also doesn’t show any proof that he tried to fight back or resist in any other way other than firing his gun.

Rather odd isn’t it, when the presentation of him has been as this wannabe cop simmering with rage and building himself up at an MMA gym for a fight? That he didn’t just have his gun drawn, ready to shoot Martin and then make up whatever excuses that he liked? That despite the State’s assertion that he “chased down” and “grabbed” Martin, the only injuries to the body are his hands and a gunshot to the chest?

459 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:34:59am
460 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:36:34am

re: #458 Targetpractice

Rather odd isn’t it, when the presentation of him has been as this wannabe cop simmering with rage and building himself up at an MMA gym for a fight?

No, I don’t think he was looking for a fight.

That he didn’t just have his gun drawn, ready to shoot Martin and then make up whatever excuses that he liked?

No fucking clue what you’re talking about here.

That despite the State’s assertion that he “chased down” and “grabbed” Martin, the only injuries to the body are his hands and a gunshot to the chest?

Martin had a small scratch on his hand. There is no assertion in either chasing down or grabbing someone that would leave marks, so I have no clue what you think you’re doing with that.

What I’m pointing out is that there is no evidence to show that Zimmerman attempted any non-lethal force before escalating to lethal force.

461 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:36:56am

re: #459 lawhawk

AFP is reporting that Snowden accepted Venezuela’s offer of asylum.

Are they going to give him travel documents, though?

462 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:37:19am

re: #460 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

No, I don’t think he was looking for a fight.

No fucking clue what you’re talking about here.

Martin had a small scratch on his hand. There is no assertion in either chasing down or grabbing someone that would leave marks, so I have no clue what you think you’re doing with that.

What I’m pointing out is that there is no evidence to show that Zimmerman attempted any non-lethal force before escalating to lethal force.

There’s not much evidence that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that night besides follow.

463 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:37:58am

re: #456 Targetpractice

The holster was towards the front of his body and he’s been trained to fire using both hands, same as any law enforcement officer.

That is not what Zimmerman said about the location of his gun…watch the re-enactment/walk through.
Yes, he acted just like he was a cop. /

Here he is showing where the gun was in his waistband

Image: gz_gun_location.jpg?1372802243

464 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:38:11am

re: #462 Targetpractice

There’s not much evidence that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that night besides follow.

Yeah, well, since I”m not arguing that there is, why the hell are you telling me this?

465 piratedan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:38:23am

re: #461 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Are they going to give him travel documents, though?

maybe some Taco Bueno coupons will be included….. //

466 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:38:50am

re: #464 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yeah, well, since I”m not arguing that there is, why the hell are you telling me this?

Because there’s nothing in the law that requires one exhaust non-lethal methods of ending a fight before they can use deadly force.

467 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:39:58am

re: #462 Targetpractice

Well following, and ultimately shooting him.

468 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:40:33am

re: #467 Bulworth

Well following, and ultimately shooting him.

There was something in-between. I know it’s inconvenient to the narrative of the cold-blooded killer, but it is there.

469 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:41:24am

re: #462 Targetpractice

There’s not much evidence that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that night besides follow.

Outside of killing Martin. But hey, shit happens.

470 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:41:25am

re: #462 Targetpractice

There’s not much evidence that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that night besides follow.

Well, there was that whole fatal shooting thingy.

471 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:41:26am

He was told not to get out of his car and follow him.

472 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:42:07am

He doesn’t have to be a ‘cold-blooded killer’. But he did kill.

473 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:42:09am

re: #471 Bulworth

He was told not to get out of his car and follow him.

He was already out of his car when that instruction was given.

474 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:42:14am

As expected, this has turned into a show trial.

All that should matter is this:

Zimmerman exited his car against the direction of the dispatcher

As far as we know, he didn’t present himself as (self-appointed) neighborhood watch

Martin had the right to defend himself from a stalker

Done.

475 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:42:46am

re: #462 Targetpractice

There’s not much evidence that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that night besides follow.

Besides arming himself, getting out of his truck, and then chasing after a teen that was running away….a teen who was not doing anything wrong, illegal, criminal, etc.

476 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:43:00am

re: #439 Targetpractice

It’s not SYG, it’s classic self-defense.

No, it’s murder masquerading as self-defense.

477 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:43:03am

re: #466 Targetpractice

If the law states that being in a fight justifies deadly force, I’m a bit concerned.

478 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:43:54am

re: #477 twisty

If the law states that being in a fight justifies deadly force, I’m a bit concerned.

The law states if one has reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, they can use deadly force to protect themself. Not I saw “fear,” there’s no legal requirement they suffer such injuries before they can engage in self-defense.

479 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:44:25am

re: #473 Targetpractice

He was already out of his car when that instruction was given.

If this is correct, things are even worse for Zimmerman.

It’s called neighborhood watch. They are not to follow, per the Sanford Neighborhood Watch manual.

480 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:44:41am

re: #473 Targetpractice

Then he could have/should have returned to it. There were alternatives besides continuing to pursue him.

481 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:44:50am

re: #479 efuseakay

If this is correct, things are even worse for Zimmerman.

It’s called neighborhood watch. They are not to follow, per the Sanford Neighborhood Watch manual.

And he was following.

482 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:44:50am

re: #461 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The AP is reporting the same, but notes his lack of suitable travel documents. In my experience, you need to show a valid passport to book an international flight. I have no clue how airlines would handle an asylum situation. Venezuela or Russia would need to provide Snowden with special transport papers.

483 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:44:54am

re: #466 Targetpractice

Because there’s nothing in the law that requires one exhaust non-lethal methods of ending a fight before they can use deadly force.

It doesn’t specifically say it, but this is the law:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

Which implies that you should try other stuff first, otherwise the lethal force isn’t necessary.

484 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:45:04am

re: #463 blueraven

That is not what Zimmerman said about the location of his gun…watch the re-enactment/walk through.
Yes, he acted just like he was a cop. /

Here he is showing where the gun was in his waistband

Image: gz_gun_location.jpg?1372802243

Sort of difficult to pull a pistol out of the back of your pants when supposedly Trayvon was on top of him and pinning him down. Moreover, how exactly can Trayvon see and reach for a pistol that is in the back of Killerman’s waistband?

485 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:45:06am

re: #478 Targetpractice

The law states if one has reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, they can use deadly force to protect themself. Not I saw “fear,” there’s no legal requirement they suffer such injuries before they can engage in self-defense.

This would make Martin “justified” in shooting Zimmerman as well, not something I agree with either.

486 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:45:16am

re: #480 Bulworth

Then he could have/should have returned to it. There were alternatives besides continuing to pursue him.

He states he was looking for an address. To my knowledge, that’s not been contradicted by evidence.

487 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:45:28am

re: #478 Targetpractice

The law states if one has reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, they can use deadly force to protect themself. Not I saw “fear,” there’s no legal requirement they suffer such injuries before they can engage in self-defense.

That law also applies to Martin. Too bad he can’t testify.

488 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:45:41am

re: #471 Bulworth

He was told not to get out of his car and follow him.

Yeah, this is the thing that the Zimmerman supporters and pseudo supporters seem to have a blind spot about. Sattv4u2 went as far as insist that since the 911 operator didn’t specifically say the words “Don’t follow this kid”, that the whole 911 interchange means nothing.

I mean, Zimmerman phones in his suspicion. 911 says “Chill out” while Zimmerman is all but complaining about how the dirty n-clangs get away with everything. And then within the hour, you’ve got a dead black kid.

Sad thing is that Zimmerman stands a good chance of getting away with it.

489 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:46:03am

re: #439 Targetpractice

It’s not SYG, it’s classic self-defense.

It’s not self-defense when you arm yourself, get out of your truck, and chase after someone that is running away.

490 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:46:04am

re: #447 Targetpractice

Well, there is no evidence that he broke free prior to the shot.

ME stated the other day that the shot was straight, not angled. If he was actually below Martin, it would have entered at an angle. He was standing as was Martin when the shot was fired. Just because he’ll get away with it doesn’t mean it wasn’t murder.

491 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:46:21am

re: #485 twisty

This would make Martin “justified” in shooting Zimmerman as well, not something I agree with either.

I’m unclear as to how he would have been justified. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman did anything that would give Martin a reasonable fear of injury or death. And he had the opportunity to run, but chose to confront.

492 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:46:26am

re: #481 Targetpractice

And he was following.

On foot. A big no no. Martin obviously thought he was being stalked. Which he was.

493 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:47:29am

re: #486 Targetpractice

So he was following Martin but looking for an address? That doesn’t make any sense.

494 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:47:32am

re: #478 Targetpractice

The law states if one has reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, they can use deadly force to protect themself. Not I saw “fear,” there’s no legal requirement they suffer such injuries before they can engage in self-defense.

You are wrong.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

It doesn’t say fear.

What you’re thinking of is:

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

Which isn’t relevant here, since it’s from the SYG portion.

495 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:47:34am

re: #492 efuseakay

On foot. A big no no. Martin obviously thought he was being stalked. Which he was.

If Martin believed he was in danger, then all he had to do was keep running.

496 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:47:59am

re: #473 Targetpractice

He was already out of his car when that instruction was given.

Oh, for God’s sake, really? You really want to go with that?

What, was there some sort of magical force field preventing Zimmerman from getting back into his vehicle?

Seriously, what the fuck, dude?

497 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:48:04am

re: #486 Targetpractice

He states he was looking for an address. To my knowledge, that’s not been contradicted by evidence.

Actually that is BS. The address from the front of the condo that he was parked by was plainly visible. He walked to the other side to get an address from across the other side, so he claims.
He lived in that complex and knew damn well where the addresses were located.

498 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:48:18am

re: #491 Targetpractice

Zimmerman could have run or not pursued as well.

499 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:48:19am

re: #491 Targetpractice

I’m unclear as to how he would have been justified. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman did anything that would give Martin a reasonable fear of injury or death. And he had the opportunity to run, but chose to confront.

Trayvon DID run away and Killerman chased after him after Trayvon ran. There’s nothing self-defending about that.

500 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:48:26am

re: #494 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You are wrong.

It doesn’t say fear.

What you’re thinking of is:

Which isn’t relevant here, since it’s from the SYG portion.

Very well, if I’m being held down on the ground, by the person who’s punched me and either being punched or held down, would I reasonably believe my life might be in danger?

501 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:48:39am

re: #495 Targetpractice

If Martin believed he was in danger, then all he had to do was keep running.

Do you have any idea how deep you’re wading into “Blame the victim” territory here?

502 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:48:52am

re: #491 Targetpractice

I’m unclear as to how he would have been justified. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman did anything that would give Martin a reasonable fear of injury or death. And he had the opportunity to run, but chose to confront.

Yeah. I’m sure you wouldn’t be the least bit afraid if you were a teenager being followed by someone in a big dark SUV.

503 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:49:30am

re: #500 Targetpractice

Very well, if I’m being held down on the ground, by the person who’s punched me and either being punched or held down, would I reasonably believe my life might be in danger?

I have yet to see anything that shows Zimmerman was ever hit by Martin. The ME’s evidence shows otherwise.

504 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:49:40am

re: #497 blueraven

Actually that is BS. The address from the front of the condo that he was parked by was plainly visible. He walked to the other side to get an address from across the other side.
He lived in that complex and knew damn well where the addresses were located.

He was asked for an address. The woman who actually lives in the apartment stated that there is a bush in front of the number that makes it hard to see from the street and even she doesn’t know where the streets begin and end. And let’s not forget this was in the dark while it was raining.

505 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:49:46am

re: #491 Targetpractice

I’m unclear as to how he would have been justified. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman did anything that would give Martin a reasonable fear of injury or death.

Have you ever been followed for blocks by someone in a vehicle while alone at night? And then the person got out of the vehicle? That will put quite a lot of fear into you.

And he had the opportunity to run, but chose to confront.

Not been proven to my satisfaction.

506 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:50:20am

re: #501 Mattand

Do you have any idea how deep you’re wading into “Blame the victim” territory here?

That’s been his thing since day 1. I’m not sure why he’s so worried that the world will end if Zimmerman actually pays for his crime, but there you are.

507 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:50:36am

re: #495 Targetpractice

If Martin believed he was in danger, then all he had to do was keep running.

So why didn’t Zimmerman run?

508 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:51:00am

re: #501 Mattand

Do you have any idea how deep you’re wading into “Blame the victim” territory here?

And? Does his being dead mean he wasn’t a participant in events that evening?

509 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:51:32am

re: #504 Targetpractice

So he couldn’t have walked one door down? He had to walk clear across to the other side? That is not logical.

510 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:52:07am

re: #509 blueraven

So he couldn’t have walked one door down? He had to walk clear across to the other side? That is not logical.

My understanding is he was looking for a street sign.

511 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:52:11am

re: #500 Targetpractice

Very well, if I’m being held down on the ground, by the person who’s punched me and either being punched or held down, would I reasonably believe my life might be in danger?

No, not at all. It’s not reasonable to think that a fistfight with someone you’ve never met before is going to wind up with you being murdered.

512 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:52:16am

re: #508 Targetpractice

And? Does his being dead mean he wasn’t a participant in events that evening?

So because he went to a store while black he deserved to die. Gotcha.

513 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:52:19am

Was Zimmerman seriously training in MMA?

514 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:52:45am

re: #513 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Was Zimmerman seriously training in MMA?

No, trainer says he was a puff, barely rated a 1 on a scale of 1-10. Wouldn’t even allow him in the ring.

515 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:52:47am

re: #513 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Was Zimmerman seriously training in MMA?

Yeah, but he does appear to have really sucked at it.

516 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:53:03am

re: #510 Targetpractice

My understanding is he was looking for a street sign.

He lives there…there are 3 (THREE) streets in the complex.

517 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:53:44am

re: #508 Targetpractice

And? Does his being dead mean he wasn’t a participant in events that evening?

Wow.

Yeah, Martin was a participant, in that he got killed by some wannabe Dirty Harry who was bent that there was a black person within 10 miles of him.

518 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:53:50am

re: #516 blueraven

He lives there…there are 3 (THREE) streets in the complex.

I couldn’t tell you all the streets in my neighborhood, especially since I don’t travel on them regularly.

519 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:53:52am

re: #493 Bulworth

So he was following Martin but looking for an address? That doesn’t make any sense.

Looking for an address on a street he doesn’t know the name of. There are three streets in the subdivision, Zimmerman lived there for years, and he was supposedly a neighborhood watch guy.

I am totally buying that.

He left the safety of his car, after stating that Martin approached the vehicle and he was afraid. So, instead of driving the vehicle to look for this supposed address, he gets out of the car with a gun.

Yup, totally buying it.

And had the reverse happened, I guarantee you that Martin would not have been able to even attempt SYG.

520 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:54:14am

re: #500 Targetpractice

Very well, if I’m being held down on the ground, by the person who’s punched me and either being punched or held down, would I reasonably believe my life might be in danger?

re: #504 Targetpractice

He was asked for an address. The woman who actually lives in the apartment stated that there is a bush in front of the number that makes it hard to see from the street and even she doesn’t know where the streets begin and end. And let’s not forget this was in the dark while it was raining.

In the dark. Raining. And you’re being followed by someone in an SUV who later gets out to pursue you, not announcing themselves as any type of law enforcement/neighborhood watch? Yeah. Nothing to fear. I guess you aren’t a black kid.

521 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:54:28am

re: #518 Targetpractice

I couldn’t tell you all the streets in my neighborhood, especially since I don’t travel on them regularly.

Are there three streets, total, in your neighborhood?

522 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:54:38am

re: #520 efuseakay

In the dark. Raining. And you’re being followed by someone in an SUV who later gets out to pursue you, not announcing themselves as any type of law enforcement/neighborhood watch? Yeah. Nothing to fear. I guess you aren’t a black kid.

I’m not. What’s your point?

523 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:54:57am

re: #521 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Are there three streets, total, in your neighborhood?

Four.

524 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:55:57am

re: #508 Targetpractice

And? Does his being dead mean he wasn’t a participant in events that evening?

Unwilling participant. I don’t he told his dad he was going out to get a snack and get shot on the way home.

525 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:56:04am

re: #520 efuseakay

In the dark. Raining. And you’re being followed by someone in an SUV who later gets out to pursue you, not announcing themselves as any type of law enforcement/neighborhood watch? Yeah. Nothing to fear. I guess you aren’t a black kid.

Righteous indignation post dealing “You don’t know what color I am!” in 3, 2, 1…

526 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:56:06am

re: #522 Targetpractice

The point is that if you believe Zimm had reasonable fear, you must also admit Martin did.

527 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:56:33am

re: #524 efuseakay

Unwilling participant. I don’t he told his dad he was going out to get a snack and get shot on the way home.

He had to be pretty willing if he was the first to ask questions and there’s no evidence that he was “chased down” and “confronted.”

528 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:56:36am

re: #523 Targetpractice

Four.

lol

529 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:56:48am

re: #515 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yeah, but he does appear to have really sucked at it.

He must have sucked badly if a much lighter person pinned and started to pound on him so hard he feared for his life.

Any bruises on Zimmerman’s forearms and hands?

530 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:57:00am

re: #526 twisty

The point is that if you believe Zimm had reasonable fear, you must also admit Martin did.

Okay, so both have reasonable fear. Both are equally right and equally wrong. How does that obviate self-defense?

531 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:57:13am

re: #518 Targetpractice

I couldn’t tell you all the streets in my neighborhood, especially since I don’t travel on them regularly.

Are you a neighborhood watch captain? He was very familiar with the area.

532 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:57:36am

re: #527 Targetpractice

He had to be pretty willing if he was the first to ask questions and there’s no evidence that he was “chased down” and “confronted.”

Zimmerman exited his car and told dispatch he was following Martin. And you say there’s no evidence? Get real.

533 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:57:46am

re: #523 Targetpractice

Four.

Okay. In every place I’ve lived, I’ve known more than four streets. A lot more. And I haven’t lived most places as long as Zimmerman lived there.

I don’t think it’s usual to not actually know the names of the only three (or four) streets in your neighborhood.

534 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:58:25am

re: #521 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Are there three streets, total, in your neighborhood?

Was he trying to find a street name or a house number, and why?

535 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:58:26am
536 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:58:28am

re: #532 efuseakay

Zimmerman exited his car and told dispatch he was following Martin. And you say there’s no evidence? Get real.

That’s evidence that Zimmerman left his vehicle. What else besides that?

537 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:58:54am

Hunter is also a contributing editor to both Taki’s Magazine…”

538 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:58:56am

re: #535 Gus

Feature, not a bug, etc.

539 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:59:33am

re: #529 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Any soil or grass residue on the gun? (assuming that he reached for gun and it was under him as he was pinned down on his back by Martin)

540 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 7:59:59am

re: #502 efuseakay

Yeah. I’m sure you wouldn’t be the least bit afraid if you were a black teenager being followed by someone a white guy in a big dark SUV.

FTFY

541 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:00:28am

re: #536 Targetpractice

That’s evidence that Zimmerman left his vehicle. What else besides that?

And why did he leave his vehicle? To check his tire pressure?

542 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:00:35am
543 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:00:43am

re: #529 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

He must have sucked badly if a much lighter person pinned and started to pound on him so hard he feared for his life.

Any bruises on Zimmerman’s forearms and hands?

Nope. And only one small cut on Martin’s left hand. He was right handed. You know, the one he’d have punched with? The ME’s evidence should have been shouted from the rooftops by the DA because it shows Zimmerman is lying about everything since he got out of his vehicle.

But the DA sucks and his buddys at the cop shop intentionally screwed up the investigation so that a good boy won’t go down for whacking a black kid.

You can bet though, that if Martin had been white, Zimmerman would already be sitting on the Florida death row.

544 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:01:05am

re: #541 efuseakay

And why did he leave his vehicle? To check his tire pressure?

To get an address, which the dispatcher asked him for.

545 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:01:37am

re: #529 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

He must have sucked badly if a much lighter person pinned and started to pound on him so hard he feared for his life.

Any bruises on Zimmerman’s forearms and hands?

No, as I said, there is absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman tried to do anything other than shoot Martin. There wouldn’t be evidence for stuff like, y’know, bucking and moving his legs, but there’s no explanation for why he didn’t try to shield his face. I think he’s claimed during one version that he had Trayvon’s hoodie in his hand, which isn’t much of an explanation.

546 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:01:58am

re: #544 Targetpractice

To get an address, which the dispatcher asked him for.

Jesus, you really want to believe Martin had it coming, don’t you?

547 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:02:22am

re: #538 Bulworth

Feature, not a bug, etc.

Rand Paul, Jack Hunter, Taki’s, Israel… teh JUICE!

548 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:02:26am

re: #546 Mattand

Jesus, you really want to believe Martin had it coming, don’t you?

“Had it coming”? Would you just like to call me a racist and get it out of your system?

549 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:03:53am

re: #547 Gus

I know I don’t really want to know, but who or what are Taki’s and Jack Hunter?

550 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:04:13am

re: #548 Targetpractice

“Had it coming”? Would you just like to call me a racist and get it out of your system?

LOL, if you think that’s what I’m doing, have a blast.

551 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:04:36am

re: #539 lawhawk

Any soil or grass residue on the gun? (assuming that he reached for gun and it was under him as he was pinned down on his back by Martin)

Was there any gunpowder on Martin’s clothes?

552 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:05:17am

re: #549 Bulworth

I know I don’t really want to know, but who or what are Taki’s and Jack Hunter?

Hunter is Rand Paul’s aide and this is Taki’s.

553 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:05:31am

re: #550 Mattand

LOL, if you think that’s what I’m doing, have a blast.

Then what is it you wish to accuse me of? Being dispassionate? Uncaring? Rational?

554 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:05:45am

re: #551 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Was there any gunpowder on Martin’s clothes?

On clothing, but not on body.

555 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:06:13am

re: #510 Targetpractice

My understanding is he was looking for a street sign.

Just a reminder - he says he was looking for a street sign, but the fight and shooting were in the ‘back yard’ area between complexes.

556 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:06:17am


Derp.

557 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:06:45am

re: #553 Targetpractice

Then what is it you wish to accuse me of? Being dispassionate? Uncaring? Rational?

Yeah, uncaring works.

558 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:06:56am

How to explain no DNA from Zimmerman on Martin’s hoodie cuffs/sleeves if, as claimed, he was holding his hands over Zimmerman’s mouth and nose. George had a bloody nose too. You would think there would be something there, right?

559 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:07:00am

re: #555 kirkspencer

Just a reminder - he says he was looking for a street sign, but the fight and shooting were in the ‘back yard’ area between complexes.

Said he was heading back to his truck for a flashlight, or at least that’s what he told Serino.

560 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:07:26am

re: #557 Mattand

Yeah, uncaring works.

Okay. Should the law be about emotion or about facts?

561 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:07:34am

You really don’t want to see the Wikileaks tweet I saw retweeted.

562 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:08:40am

re: #558 blueraven

How to explain no DNA from Zimmerman on Martin’s hoodie cuffs/sleeves if, as claimed, he was holding his hands over Zimmerman’s mouth and nose. George had a bloody nose too. You would think there would be something there, right?

Could be that Zimmerman misinterpreted choking on his own blood as Martin trying to smother him.

563 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:08:49am

re: #556 Gus

That’s almost enough to make me turn in my Twitters.

564 piratedan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:09:11am

re: #548 Targetpractice

“Had it coming”? Would you just like to call me a racist and get it out of your system?

just believe that you’re being willfully obtuse for reasons unknown….

one person was on foot, armed with skittles and a soda, one person was in a car armed with a handgun. One person got out of their car and instigated a confrontation. One person was advised by authorities to not pursue, not engage and ignored those instructions.

doesn’t matter what color either person was, take the race thing out of it entirely as far as I’m concerned, again, look at their ACTIONS. Just like in the Snowden case, look at what has been proven by their deeds.

If Zimmerman was scared, why get out of the car? If Zimmerman was scared, why confront Martin? Zimmerman wasn’t scared.

565 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:09:16am

re: #560 Targetpractice

Okay. Should the law be about emotion or about facts?

Well, the facts seem to be pointing to Zimmerman provoking a fight with an unarmed teen and then killing him for being in the “wrong” neighborhood.

566 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:09:42am

re: #553 Targetpractice
re: #560 Targetpractice

Nah. Please don’t try to present yourself as being rational logical fact guy when several things you’ve stated as fact aren’t proven.

567 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:09:49am

re: #543 William Barnett-Lewis

Nope. And only one small cut on Martin’s left hand. He was right handed. You know, the one he’d have punched with? The ME’s evidence should have been shouted from the rooftops by the DA because it shows Zimmerman is lying about everything since he got out of his vehicle.

But the DA sucks and his buddys at the cop shop intentionally screwed up the investigation so that a good boy won’t go down for whacking a black kid.

You can bet though, that if Martin had been white, Zimmerman would already be sitting on the Florida death row.

Although I’ve been in both superior and submissive position during MA training, I’ve only been in 3 real fights where that position happened.

In two fights, I’ve been in superior and the people I was fighting both had their hands up protecting their faces. The one time I was on the bottom, I grabbed both of the other guy’s hands to prevent him from hitting me. (I was laughing myself silly at the time)

Martin should have been trying to protect his face unless his first reaction was to go for the gun, or if he already had the gun in hand.

568 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:10:01am

re: #559 Targetpractice

Said he was heading back to his truck for a flashlight, or at least that’s what he told Serino.

That doesn’t make any sense.

569 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:10:02am

re: #563 Bulworth

That’s almost enough to make me turn in my Twitters.

570 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:10:04am

re: #565 Mattand

Well, the facts seem to be pointing to Zimmerman provoking a fight with an unarmed teen and then killing him for being in the “wrong” neighborhood.

Provoking is not fact, it’s speculation.

571 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:10:58am

re: #560 Targetpractice

Okay. Should the law be about emotion or about facts?

Facts are fine. Pity the real ones aren’t supporting Zimmerman but hey, no biggie apparently.

572 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:11:18am

re: #564 piratedan

just believe that you’re being willfully obtuse for reasons unknown….

one person was on foot, armed with skittles and a soda, one person was in a car armed with a handgun. One person got out of their car and instigated a confrontation. One person was advised by authorities to not pursue, not engage and ignored those instructions.

doesn’t matter what color either person was, take the race thing out of it entirely as far as I’m concerned, again, look at their ACTIONS. Just like in the Snowden case, look at what has been proven by their deeds.

If Zimmerman was scared, why get out of the car? If Zimmerman was scared, why confront Martin? Zimmerman wasn’t scared.

“Instigated” a confrontation? That’s fact?

573 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:11:37am

re: #559 Targetpractice

Said he was heading back to his truck for a flashlight, or at least that’s what he told Serino.

Yes that is what he said. But it does not jibe with the fact there is a street sign under a street light about half a block from where he parked along that same street. Likewise it makes no sense for him to look for the name of the street he was parked on by going through the complex to another street.

574 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:11:49am

re: #570 Targetpractice

Provoking is not fact, it’s speculation.

Sad thing is, at the end of the day, you’re unfortunately gonna get your wish and Zimmerman’s probably gonna go free.

575 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:11:53am

re: #562 Targetpractice

Could be that Zimmerman misinterpreted choking on his own blood as Martin trying to smother him.

What? So now you are doubting Zimmerman’s story and making excuses after believing everything he said until now?

When the evidence goes against Zimmermans story, you just switch. Weird.

576 bratwurst  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:12:20am
577 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:12:34am

re: #574 Mattand

Sad thing is, at the end of the day, you’re unfortunately gonna get your wish and Zimmerman’s probably gonna go free.

My wish is for due process and a fair trial. Isn’t it yours?

578 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:13:08am

re: #575 blueraven

What? So now you are doubting Zimmerman’s story and making excuses after believing everything he said until now?

When the evidence goes against Zimmermans story, you just switch. Weird.

I didn’t say I believed his story entirely.

579 piratedan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:13:58am

re: #572 Targetpractice

“Instigated” a confrontation? That’s fact?

sure the fuck is….. did Martin approach Zimmerman’s car? Zimmerman pursued Martin. Now you want to go into the semantics of Tomatoe and Tomatow?

580 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:14:08am

re: #577 Targetpractice

My wish is for due process and a fair trial. Isn’t it yours?

That went out the window with the Sanford police fucking up the initial investigation.

581 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:14:45am

re: #569 Gus

[Embedded content]

A liar, a loser, and a traitor walk into a bar.

The bartender says, “White Russian, Mr. Snowden?”

582 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:14:49am

re: #544 Targetpractice

To get an address, which the dispatcher asked him for.

And how far away did the shooting take place in relation to the vehicle?

Martin did run by the way.
Even Zimmerman admits this.

583 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:15:21am

re: #579 piratedan

sure the fuck is….. did Martin approach Zimmerman’s car? Zimmerman pursued Martin. Now you want to go into the semantics of Tomatoe and Tomatow?

So how did the confrontation happen? Especially when Martin broke off in a run before Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and the distance between there and the back door of Tracy Martin’s apartment is all of 100 yards?

584 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:15:47am

re: #581 Vicious Babushka

A liar, a loser, and a traitor walk into a bar.

The bartender says, “White Russian, Mr. Snowden?”

Tweet that to ‘em! :D

585 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:16:11am

re: #581 Vicious Babushka

No, a Cuba Libre. /

586 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:16:38am

re: #583 Targetpractice

So how did the confrontation happen? Especially when Martin broke off in a run before Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and the distance between there and the back door of Tracy Martin’s apartment is all of 100 yards?

Martin didn’t know the neighborhood, it was raining, he was likely pretty scared at that point, the backs of the houses look similar, and there was no adult at home— he may not have felt safe even if he’d gotten to his home.

587 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:16:38am

re: #580 Mattand

That went out the window with the Sanford police fucking up the initial investigation.

Is there evidence that was not obtained that would have proven Zimmerman’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

588 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:17:03am

re: #586 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Martin didn’t know the neighborhood, it was raining, he was likely pretty scared at that point, the backs of the houses look similar, and there was no adult at home— he may not have felt safe even if he’d gotten to his home.

Then why not hang up on “Dee-Dee” and dial 911?

589 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:17:22am

re: #585 lawhawk

No, a Cuba Libre. /

Cuba no libre!

590 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:18:24am

re: #589 Gus

591 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:19:07am

re: #588 Targetpractice

Then why not hang up on “Dee-Dee” and dial 911?

Probably due to a lack of trust or faith in the police, which is a larger issue, combined with teenage bravado. Possibly due to just being scared and not thinking straight.

You do get that I think that Martin may have turned back in order to confront Zimmerman, right?

592 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:19:19am

re: #588 Targetpractice

Then why not hang up on “Dee-Dee” and dial 911?

Ever called the cops as a minority? Though I suppose being arrested for being black is better than being dead for being black.

593 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:19:22am

re: #570 Targetpractice

Provoking is not fact, it’s speculation.

Not speculation at all. Where was Martin shot in relation to Zimmerman’s vehicle?

594 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:19:33am


Derp.

595 piratedan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:20:04am

re: #583 Targetpractice

So how did the confrontation happen? Especially when Martin broke off in a run before Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and the distance between there and the back door of Tracy Martin’s apartment is all of 100 yards?

it happened just like this…. one guy came out of the saloon, spurs jangling on the wooden planking outside the swinging doors, a dry wind blowing down the street with a distant cawing of a crow marking the otherwise silent dusty landscape… outside, waiting was a man, with a hoodie, armed with a menacing demeanor and an outlawed bag of candy treats who had been threatening the humble, tired residents of this once unsullied neighborhood…..

596 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:20:18am

re: #591 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Probably due to a lack of trust or faith in the police, which is a larger issue, combined with teenage bravado. Possibly due to just being scared and not thinking straight.

You do get that I think that Martin may have turned back in order to confront Zimmerman, right?

I was unclear on that point. I must admit, based upon Jeantel’s testimony of the call, Martin is an awful cool customer. He apparently was so full with fright he couldn’t think straight, but that never became apparent to her.

597 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:20:22am
598 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:22:02am

re: #593 efuseakay

Not speculation at all. Where was Martin shot in relation to Zimmerman’s vehicle?

Zimmerman, a pudgy bastard that was heavier and less athletic, ran down Martin when the latter had a running start and the former started from inside his vehicle?

599 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:22:22am

I’m still confused by the actual fight. Was Martin laying on top of Zimmerman or in the superior position? If in the superior position, how is it the bullet didn’t enter at an angle? If in the superior position, why no bruises on Zimmerman’s forearms or the back of his hands? If he had to pull his gun out from behind him, why no grass stains on the back of Zimmerman’s hands and gun?

Where’s the physical evidence that corroborates Zimmerman’s story?

600 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:24:03am

re: #596 Targetpractice

I was unclear on that point. I must admit, based upon Jeantel’s testimony of the call, Martin is an awful cool customer. He apparently was so full with fright he couldn’t think straight, but that never became apparent to her.

Martin was scared enough to run, according to Zimmerman himself.

601 Iwouldprefernotto  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:24:06am

re: #548 Targetpractice

“Had it coming”? Would you just like to call me a racist and get it out of your system?

I don’t see any other reason to defend Zimmerman. He had the gun. He pulled the trigger. It may or may not be 2nd degree murder, but his actions led to the death of an unarmed kid. He deserves to be punished and so many defendants in this country deserve defense more than GZ.

602 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:24:32am

re: #587 Targetpractice

Is there evidence that was not obtained that would have proven Zimmerman’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

Probably, as Sanford’s police chief was fired over fucking up the investigation.

603 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:24:54am

re: #599 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

I’m still confused by the actual fight. Was Martin laying on top of Zimmerman or in the superior position? If in the superior position, how is it the bullet didn’t enter at an angle? If in the superior position, why no bruises on Zimmerman’s forearms or the back of his hands? If he had to pull his gun out from behind him, why no grass stains on the back of Zimmerman’s hands and gun?

Where’s the physical evidence that corroborates Zimmerman’s story?

TM just had some abrasions to his left hand. He’s right handed. GZ alleges that TM was on top of him. ME said shot fired at point blank range. Hollow points. No TM blood on GZ even though TM was on top of GZ… Hmm…

604 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:25:08am

re: #596 Targetpractice

I was unclear on that point. I must admit, based upon Jeantel’s testimony of the call, Martin is an awful cool customer. He apparently was so full with fright he couldn’t think straight, but that never became apparent to her.

I don’t get why, on the one hand, you say that we can’t make assumptions and should hold back from speculation, and the next moment you’re hip deep in it— usually when it involves speculating on something negative about Trayvon Martin.

How on earth are you getting that he was a ‘cool customer’? And why are you ignoring that Jeantel said that Martin was scared?

605 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:25:39am

re: #598 Targetpractice

Zimmerman, a pudgy bastard that was heavier and less athletic, ran down Martin when the latter had a running start and the former started from inside his vehicle?

As I asked before, where was Martin shot in relation to Zimmerman’s vehicle?

606 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:26:07am

re: #602 Mattand

Probably, as Sanford’s police chief was fired over fucking up the investigation.

The one that the city leaders had already chosen to override when it came to law enforcement matters like playing the tape for Martin family members one at a time, to ensure there was no confirmation bias?

607 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:26:41am

Good morning lizards!

A friend of mine takes part in the 4th of July Naturalization Ceremony at Monticello every year. Among the speakers at this year’s ceremony was Dave Matthews. Check out this video of his speech. It’s great!

new.livestream.com

608 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:27:36am
609 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:28:43am

re: #604 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I don’t get why, on the one hand, you say that we can’t make assumptions and should hold back from speculation, and the next moment you’re hip deep in it— usually when it involves speculating on something negative about Trayvon Martin.

How on earth are you getting that he was a ‘cool customer’? And why are you ignoring that Jeantel said that Martin was scared?

Well, I could go on evidence that has been barred from court so far, that Martin had a history of fighting and the reason he’d been thrown out of Fulton’s house is because of problems at school with fighting.

And again, he was so afraid that she could hear it in his voice, but not so scared that she felt concerned when he hung up and didn’t call her back?

610 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:28:57am
611 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:29:12am

re: #588 Targetpractice

Then why not hang up on “Dee-Dee” and dial 911?

Teenage bravado.

612 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:29:45am

re: #611 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Teenage bravado.

So much that he might think to confront the guy chasing him to demand answers?

613 Mattand  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:30:12am

re: #606 Targetpractice

The one that the city leaders had already chosen to override when it came to law enforcement matters like playing the tape for Martin family members one at a time, to ensure there was no confirmation bias?

Gonna need a link on that one.

As far as fucking up the investigation: the cops let Martin’s body linger in the morgue for days, despite having his cell phone. They could have easily tracked his ID through that.

614 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:30:37am

re: #609 Targetpractice

Well, I could go on evidence that has been barred from court so far, that Martin had a history of fighting and the reason he’d been thrown out of Fulton’s house is because of problems at school with fighting.

Can you please detail Martin’s ‘history of fighting’, and how that relates to him being a ‘cool character’, please?

And again, he was so afraid that she could hear it in his voice, but not so scared that she felt concerned when he hung up and didn’t call her back?

I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. Why is what Jeantel’s level of concern important? And why did you originally say that Jeantel said Martin wasn’t afraid?

615 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:31:30am

re: #603 Gus

Zimmerman said that Martin hit him over 20 times in the face and banged his head on the ground repeatedly. If Martin had hit him that many times there’s no freaking way his knuckles wouldn’t have been banged up and bruised, big time. The ME found nothing even close to that.

If Zimmerman had all these awful injuries, then why was he not treated for them? Where are the medical records about the huge wounds and broken nose? He would have needed stitches or staples had his head been beat on a concrete sidewalk. A broken nose needs resetting and usually causes black eyes afterward. If there’s lots of blood involved, the nose is sometimes packed with cotton to contain the blood. None of that exists here. He lied, and if he lied about that, then what the hell else is he lying about?

616 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:31:41am
617 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:32:30am

re: #613 Mattand

Gonna need a link on that one.

As far as fucking up the investigation: the cop let Martin’s body linger in the morgue for days, despite having his cell phone. They could have easily tracked his ID through that.

Cops can’t access the contents of a cellphone without a warrant, especially if the body is a John Doe. Could raise accusations at trial of tampering with evidence.

618 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:33:31am

re: #615 A Mom Anon

All I saw was GZ with a semi busted nose and a large scratch in the back of his head.

619 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:33:57am

Again. Where was Zimmerman’s vehicle in relation to the shooting?

620 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:34:55am

re: #614 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Can you please detail Martin’s ‘history of fighting’, and how that relates to him being a ‘cool character’, please?

You accused me of going into speculation on Martin, and I only know that evidence exists of Martin having a history of fighting, including evidence on his cellphone and social media of such. The evidence hasn’t been entered into the record at trial, so I don’t know much more than that.

I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. Why is what Jeantel’s level of concern important? And why did you originally say that Jeantel said Martin wasn’t afraid?

I saw it because her impression of him changes, from a guy who’s so afraid that he broke into a run into to assuring her that he’s okay when she begs him to go in his apartment despite being right behind it.

621 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:35:10am

re: #619 efuseakay

Again. Where was Zimmerman’s vehicle in relation to the shooting?

This is evidence of what?

622 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:35:19am

re: #616 Gus

But, but, but Frederick Douglass and Abe Lincoln were Republicans…..

/

623 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:36:00am


624 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:36:21am

re: #618 Gus

All I saw was GZ with a semi busted nose and a large scratch in the back of his head.

The laceration was less than an inch. Required no stitches and was treated the next day at this doctors office with just a regular band-aid.

625 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:36:47am

re: #603 Gus

TM just had some abrasions to his left hand. He’s right handed. GZ alleges that TM was on top of him. ME said shot fired at point blank range. Hollow points. No TM blood on GZ even though TM was on top of GZ… Hmm…

No blood on GZ?
No angled bullet entry?

Sounds like they were standing.

Did they both stand up after the wrestle before the trigger was pulled?
That would put a different spin on the story.

626 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:37:19am

re: #621 Targetpractice

This is evidence of what?

Do you have the answer?

627 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:37:28am

re: #620 Targetpractice

You accused me of going into speculation on Martin, and I only know that evidence exists of Martin having a history of fighting, including evidence on his cellphone and social media of such. The evidence hasn’t been entered into the record at trial, so I don’t know much more than that.

Okay. So how does this evidence that you don’t know much about go to showing Trayvon is a ‘cool customer’, as you claimed?

I saw it because her impression of him changes, from a guy who’s so afraid that he broke into a run into to assuring her that he’s okay when she begs him to go in his apartment despite being right behind it.

Why is that important? I cannot for the life of me figure out what you’re hinting at here.

It’d be better if you spoke a lot more directly, instead of making insinuations.

628 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:38:00am

re: #626 efuseakay

Do you have the answer?

Do you?

629 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:38:30am

re: #608 Gus

[Embedded content]

Any port in a storm.

630 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:38:38am

re: #625 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

It could happen any time that Trayvon’s torso was parralel to him, so they could have been scuffling on the ground and still had it enter straight.

631 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:38:51am

re: #628 Targetpractice

Do you?

I’m asking you. Do you know?

632 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:39:07am

re: #628 Targetpractice

Do you?

Is there a reason you really want to dodge the question?

Where was Zimmerman’s vehicle in relation to the shooting?

633 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:39:30am

re: #625 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

No blood on GZ?
No angled bullet entry?

Sounds like they were standing.

Did they both stand up after the wrestle before the trigger was pulled?
That would put a different spin on the story.

Allegedly no TM DNA on GZ. Sanford PD also screwed up the storage of GZ’s clothing by putting his damp clothing in a plastic bag. This all began of course because the Sanford PD didn’t see anything wrong with GZ’s actions in the first place because, you know.

634 A Mom Anon  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:39:42am

re: #618 Gus

The scratch wasn’t even that large once the wounds were cleaned up.

Also, to touch on some other points being made above:
Zimmerman also had a record of violence, one incident involving assaulting a cop(since Martin’s violent past is fair game, why not Zimmerman’s?), and I think I heard of a domestic violence charge somewhere. Also, if one is a member of a neighborhood watch, there are usually rules in place that do NOT allow for patrolling the area with a firearm of any kind.

At the end of the day, you have an unarmed kid, out at 7pm, walking home, and a guy with a gun who shot him dead. Who’s also lying his ass off, more than once. I don’t give a shit if Martin was a fucking gangbanger, he wasn’t armed and he wasn’t breaking any law when he was shot dead. That’s wrong, period and something should happen to the guy who shot him.

635 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:40:25am

re: #627 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. So how does this evidence that you don’t know much about go to showing Trayvon is a ‘cool customer’, as you claimed?

You chewed me out for engaging in speculation, which I was attempting to address with evidence. Not the “Cool customer” comment.

Why is that important? I cannot for the life of me figure out what you’re hinting at here.

It’d be better if you spoke a lot more directly, instead of making insinuations.

And I can’t figure out what it is you want me to say. She says he was frightened, but then he seemed to calm down and tried to reassure her he was fine. Doesn’t fear, especially for one’s life, continue until the threat has been removed?

636 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:40:48am

re: #627 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. So how does this evidence that you don’t know much about go to showing Trayvon is a ‘cool customer’, as you claimed?

Why is that important? I cannot for the life of me figure out what you’re hinting at here.

It’d be better if you spoke a lot more directly, instead of making insinuations.

And how does that evidence aid Zimmerman in calculating whether his “force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself “?

637 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:41:36am

re: #632 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Is there a reason you really want to dodge the question?

Where was Zimmerman’s vehicle in relation to the shooting?

As I understand it, the shooting took place behind the apartment next to Good’s.

638 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:41:53am

re: #630 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

It could happen any time that Trayvon’s torso was parralel to him, so they could have been scuffling on the ground and still had it enter straight.

Unlikely, given the lack of DNA/physical evidence to corroborate Zimmerman’s version of events.

639 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:42:08am

re: #617 Targetpractice

Cops can’t access the contents of a cellphone without a warrant, especially if the body is a John Doe. Could raise accusations at trial of tampering with evidence.

No. Not true. No warrant is required for evidence collected from the body of the victim. As for tampering, there are clear rules for chain of evidence when dealing with electronic media that would have taken half an hour after the forensic technicians got the phone.

640 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:42:53am

re: #639 kirkspencer

No. Not true. No warrant is required for evidence collected from the body of the victim. As for tampering, there are clear rules for chain of evidence when dealing with electronic media that would have taken half an hour after the forensic technicians got the phone.

Then I don’t know what to tell you. The ME’s office on this one seems to have done an absolutely piss poor job.

641 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:43:36am

re: #637 Targetpractice

As I understand it, the shooting took place behind the apartment next to Good’s.

So a good way’s away from Zimmerman’s vehicle then? And here you’re trying to convince us that he got out of his truck to look for an address. Bullshit.

642 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:43:38am

re: #612 Targetpractice

So much that he might think to confront the guy chasing him to demand answers?

So much so that he would attack the person following him. Fear illicits two distinct responses, fight or flight. Add in fear of looking weak and many kids would do what TM did, even without a history of being black in a white society.

TM sounds very much like my younger brother who did react like that.

643 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:44:07am

re: #641 efuseakay

So a good way’s away from Zimmerman’s vehicle then? And here you’re trying to convince us that he got out of his truck to look for an address. Bullshit.

Look for a number, look for a street sign, returning to his vehicle for a flashlight when confronted.

644 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:44:15am

re: #635 Targetpractice

You chewed me out for engaging in speculation, which I was attempting to address with evidence. Not the “Cool customer” comment.

I chewed you out for asserting that Trayvon was a cool customer— that’s the speculation I’m talking about.

And I can’t figure out what it is you want me to say. She says he was frightened, but then he seemed to calm down and tried to reassure her he was fine. Doesn’t fear, especially for one’s life, continue until the threat has been removed?

I really have no clue what you’re trying to say here. You’re using her proxy assessment of his level of fear as your only way of judging how afraid he was? And since he reassured her, he wasn’t really afraid?

That’s actually your logic?

645 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:44:27am

re: #637 Targetpractice

As I understand it, the shooting took place behind the apartment next to Good’s.

And where was the vehicle in relation to that?

646 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:44:38am

re: #637 Targetpractice

As I understand it, the shooting took place behind the apartment next to Good’s.

It happened between the rows of apartments…some facing one street, some facing the other. But in the back of each. Zimmerman could have given an address of the front facing apts, where his vehicle was parked at any time. He did not need to go “find an address”.

647 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:44:46am

re: #642 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

So much so that he would attack the person following him. Fear illicits two distinct responses, fight or flight. Add in fear of looking weak and many kids would do what TM did, even without a history of being black in a white society.

TM sounds very much like my younger brother who did react like that.

That was my impression as well. Martin let bravado override preservation instinct.

648 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:44:47am

re: #643 Targetpractice

Look for a number, look for a street sign, returning to his vehicle for a flashlight when confronted.

Why would he go away from the street and behind the houses to look for either of those?

649 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:46:23am

re: #648 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Why would he go away from the street and behind the houses to look for either of those?

Your guess is as good as mine.

650 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:46:29am
651 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:47:25am

re: #644 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I chewed you out for asserting that Trayvon was a cool customer— that’s the speculation I’m talking about.

I really have no clue what you’re trying to say here. You’re using her proxy assessment of his level of fear as your only way of judging how afraid he was? And since he reassured her, he wasn’t really afraid?

That’s actually your logic?

My logic says I know next to nothing about Trayvon Martin. I can only begin to guess at his motivations.

652 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:47:44am

re: #649 Targetpractice

Your guess is as good as mine.

Okay. So you’re agreeing that it makes no sense to do that, that Zimmerman’s explanation— that in order to get an address and a street name he left the street and went into a dark path between the houses— doesn’t add up?

653 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:47:55am
654 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:48:25am

re: #652 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. So you’re agreeing that it makes no sense to do that, that Zimmerman’s explanation— that in order to get an address and a street name he left the street and went into a dark path between the houses— doesn’t add up?

It does not.

655 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:48:26am

re: #651 Targetpractice

My logic says I know next to nothing about Trayvon Martin. I can only begin to guess at his motivations.

So why do you do stuff like assert that he was a ‘cool customer’?

If memory serves, as soon as information about Trayvon having some minor shit at school came up, you changed your tune on this case. Is that accurate?

656 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:48:30am
657 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:48:33am

re: #630 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

It could happen any time that Trayvon’s torso was parralel to him, so they could have been scuffling on the ground and still had it enter straight.

But not if TM had superior position. They would have to have been rolling around at the time. If rolling around it becomes difficult to repeatedly pound an opponent’s head on the ground.

658 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:48:44am

re: #572 Targetpractice

“Instigated” a confrontation? That’s fact?

It’s as much a fact as Zimmerman’s tall tale.

659 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:49:01am

re: #654 Targetpractice

It does not.

So isn’t that a sign that Zimmerman’s not actually telling the truth, or was otherwise acting unreasonably?

660 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:49:19am

re: #657 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

But not if TM had superior position. They would have to have been rolling around at the time. If rolling around it becomes difficult to repeatedly pound an opponent’s head on the ground.

Oh, well, he definitely didn’t have his head repeatedly pounded into the ground.

661 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:50:08am

re: #655 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

So why do you do stuff like assert that he was a ‘cool customer’?

If memory serves, as soon as information about Trayvon having some minor shit at school came up, you changed your tune on this case. Is that accurate?

That’s not my recollection. I remember it changing about the time that the initial evidence began coming out during discovery. I remember being as incensed as most when rumors began going around about things going on at school, same as the initial accusations of marijuana usage.

662 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:50:42am

re: #640 Targetpractice

Then I don’t know what to tell you. The ME’s office on this one seems to have done an absolutely piss poor job.

Not just the ME’s office.

From the moment the assistant DA got brought in at 3am Monday morning to order this determined as self defense the thing turned into a morass of sloppiness. There aren’t enough free hours in any police force in the US to continue an investigation in such circumstances, and there are several protections in place to prevent continued harassment when someone’s determined to be innocent.

I don’t blame the police in this. They followed procedure. No, I blame the Asst DA who seems to have jumped when Zimmerman’s father, the retired judge, called him about his son being in jail despite ‘obviously’ being self-defense. Because of that act we have this mess with a shortage of evidence.

Since it’s knife-edge as to whether the remaining evidence is sufficient to convict I suspect (note, opinion) that more would have made this a much clearer case for conviction. Or it might have made it more clear that the self-defense argument was legitimate. It doesn’t matter, because it’s obvious that due process wasn’t followed for the favored son of a (locally) powerful man.

And in the end THAT is what everyone is pissed about.

663 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:50:53am

re: #659 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

So isn’t that a sign that Zimmerman’s not actually telling the truth, or was otherwise acting unreasonably?

Potentially, yes.

664 Interesting Times  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:50:56am

re: #656 Gus

In what context is twitchy even posting that tweet? Approval? o_O

665 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:52:26am

re: #661 Targetpractice

That’s not my recollection. I remember it changing about the time that the initial evidence began coming out during discovery. I remember being as incensed as most when rumors began going around about things going on at school, same as the initial accusations of marijuana usage.

What evidence was it that changed your mind, then? The 2 cm and .5 cm cuts in Zimmerman’s skin? The evidence that he claimed that he was looking for an address and street name when he left the street to go behind the buildings?

666 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:52:44am

re: #664 Interesting Times

In what context is twitchy even posting that tweet? Approval? o_O

I imagine disapproval by way of Free Beacon. R.e. Rand’s stance on Israel, etc.

667 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:52:50am

re: #663 Targetpractice

Potentially, yes.

Great. Is having to admit this why you wanted to dodge this question initially?

668 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:53:15am

re: #660 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Oh, well, he definitely didn’t have his head repeatedly pounded into the ground.

The story seriously does not add up.

669 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:53:43am

re: #665 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

What evidence was it that changed your mind, then? The 2 cm and .5 cm cuts in Zimmerman’s skin? The evidence that he claimed that he was looking for an address and street name when he left the street to go behind the buildings?

The evidence that he had injuries at all, when the media narrative was that he had no injuries to speak of and had made up the whole thing with the Sanford PD’s assistance.

670 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:54:00am

re: #667 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Great. Is having to admit this why you wanted to dodge this question initially?

No.

671 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:54:32am

re: #669 Targetpractice

The evidence that he had injuries at all, when the media narrative was that he had no injuries to speak of and had made up the whole thing with the Sanford PD’s assistance.

But the injuries he has are pretty trivial. a 2 cm and a .5 cm cut, and a bloody nose. How were those injuries sufficient to change your mind?

672 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:54:34am

re: #668 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

The story seriously does not add up.

Which means no “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

673 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:54:43am

re: #670 Targetpractice

No.

Okay, why did you want to dodge the question?

674 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:55:40am

re: #671 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But the injuries he has are pretty trivial. a 2 cm and a .5 cm cut, and a bloody nose. How were those injuries sufficient to change your mind?

Yes. It made me begin to question just how much of what the media had sold this whole issue on to begin with was supported by evidence.

675 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:56:22am

I’m going to leave this story, I haven’t read any of the transcripts from the trial, nor kept up with it from the news, so I’m not in a position to say anything of value.

However, from what little I’ve learned, I smell some pretty ripe bs.

676 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:56:38am

re: #673 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, why did you want to dodge the question?

Because I’ve grown tired of being told that any inconsistencies in his testimony are evidence that the whole thing is a fabrication.

677 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:57:01am

re: #674 Targetpractice

Yes. It made me begin to question just how much of what the media had sold this whole issue on to begin with was supported by evidence.

Why does what the media did matter? The evidence of .5 cm and 2 cm cuts amounts to a very trivial level of injury— so why did that evidence change your mind?

678 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:57:17am

re: #676 Targetpractice

Because I’ve grown tired of being told that any inconsistencies in his testimony are evidence that the whole thing is a fabrication.

Why said that, please? Who has now asserted that?

679 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:58:39am

re: #677 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Why does what the media did matter? The evidence of .5 cm and 2 cm cuts amounts to a very trivial level of injury— so why did that evidence change your mind?

As I said, I began to look at the evidence as a whole, the timeline, the maps, the ME’s report, and so forth. I tried to go into the trial with skepticism, but at both cases, not simply the defense.

680 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:58:51am
681 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 8:59:59am

re: #678 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Why said that, please? Who has now asserted that?

I’ve been discussing this case outside LGF, on other boards. I’ve avoided discussion on this board because I got tired of being treated like DF.

682 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:00:34am

re: #679 Targetpractice

As I said, I began to look at the evidence as a whole, the timeline, the maps, the ME’s report, and so forth. I tried to go into the trial with skepticism, but at both cases, not simply the defense.

Are you trying to insinuate I didn’t?

683 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:01:13am

re: #681 Targetpractice

I’ve been discussing this case outside LGF, on other boards. I’ve avoided discussion on this board because I got tired of being treated like DF.

Okay. You’ve made the claim that any inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s story are being treated as though he made the whole thing up.

Did I do that, or did anyone else here do that?

684 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:01:50am

re: #683 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. You’ve made the claim that any inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s story are being treated as though he made the whole thing up.

Did I do that, or did anyone else here do that?

On this thread? No. On previous threads? Yes.

685 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:02:01am

Morning, Lizards! Today’s soundtrack is the new Jay-Z album on Spotify. It’s solid. Loving it so far.

Also, this is awesome:

686 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:02:24am

re: #682 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Are you trying to insinuate I didn’t?

I’m trying to explain my reasoning. If you view that as a personal insult, I can’t help you.

687 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:02:43am

re: #562 Targetpractice

Could be that Zimmerman misinterpreted choking on his own blood as Martin trying to smother him.

If he was choking on his own blood, how was he screaming bloody murder (no pun intended) for someone to help?

You are being many things, but rational is not one of them.

688 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:02:44am

re: #653 Gus

Ah, well, who amongst us does not regularly celebrate the birthday of Lincoln’s assassin? //

689 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:03:20am

re: #643 Targetpractice

Look for a number, look for a street sign, returning to his vehicle for a flashlight when confronted.

So how did he end up killing Martin where he did if he was just looking for an address?

Image: map_1000.jpg

690 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:03:49am

re: #684 Targetpractice

On this thread? No. On previous threads? Yes.

And I assume that since these threads are so old, you can’t actually back this up.

Sticking to the current thread, you’re saying you wanted to dodge the question because you’re tired of seeing Zimmerman’s inconsistencies used to assert that he was lying about everything. Given that this hasn’t happened in this thread, even if it did in the past, that seems a little bit of a defensive answer.

Wanting to dodge a question that you’re admitting shows inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s account, rather than acknowledging those and dealing with them, doesn’t reflect well on your claim to just want to look at the evidence in a skeptical fashion.

691 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:04:45am
692 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:04:55am

re: #686 Targetpractice

I’m trying to explain my reasoning. If you view that as a personal insult, I can’t help you.

Okay. What about the evidence of the minor injuries to Zimmerman changed your attitude towards the story? I know when the pictures first came out, the blood startled people who don’t really know how freely head wounds bleed, and a lot of people reversed themselves out of shock.

693 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:05:27am

re: #690 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

And I assume that since these threads are so old, you can’t actually back this up.

Sticking to the current thread, you’re saying you wanted to dodge the question because you’re tired of seeing Zimmerman’s inconsistencies used to assert that he was lying about everything. Given that this hasn’t happened in this thread, even if it did in the past, that seems a little bit of a defensive answer.

Wanting to dodge a question that you’re admitting shows inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s account, rather than acknowledging those and dealing with them, doesn’t reflect well on your claim to just want to look at the evidence in a skeptical fashion.

I don’t feel like spending the next hour looking for past threads, especially when there are questions and accusations coming as I look. What is it you wish to accuse me of? I’d like to know so I can begin to mount a defense.

694 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:05:50am

OK, so “gun expert” says Martin was hanging over Zimmerman because he thinks the bullet hit the jacket hanging down, “by gravity”, not against his skin.

WTF? Didn’t anyone try to match up the jacket and flesh? That would give a pattern of the bullet’s trajectory, wouldn’t it?

695 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:06:30am
696 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:07:23am

re: #692 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. What about the evidence of the minor injuries to Zimmerman changed your attitude towards the story? I know when the pictures first came out, the blood startled people who don’t really know how freely head wounds bleed, and a lot of people reversed themselves out of shock.

I know head wounds bleed, I’ve had plenty of them over the years. Perhaps you remember that those pictures came out after the Sanford PD video, when people pointed to the cleaned-up Zimmerman being walked through the station and declared “He’s got no injuries! He’s totally lying!” I remember because I was one of those who believed it proof of his guilt.

697 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:07:28am

re: #574 Mattand

Sad thing is, at the end of the day, you’re unfortunately gonna get your wish and Zimmerman’s probably gonna go free.

Zimmerman may (and probably will) go free, but he will always be a murdering piece of shit. A wuss who got way in over his head because the black kid he didn’t recognize, who just didn’t belong in his neighborhood stood his ground to the perv who was following him, making up shit about Martin casing houses, and was a big man with a gun who killed a fucking kid for no reason whatsoever.

He will always be looked at as a murderer, no matter what the outcome is. As it should be.

698 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:08:48am

Heh… someone was trying to defend the TX abortion restriction bill and then deleted their twitter because they admitted that it was about shuttering clinics:

Oh, and that account is now suspended. And now they’re back (that was weird).

699 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:09:02am

re: #693 Targetpractice

I don’t feel like spending the next hour looking for past threads, especially when there are questions and accusations coming as I look. What is it you wish to accuse me of? I’d like to know so I can begin to mount a defense.

See, this bizarre, self-pitying defensiveness doesn’t make you or your argument look good. I’m not accusing you of a damn thing except perhaps being wrong about something. I don’t think it reflects on your morals or your ethics or your worth as a human being, and you know I don’t argue that way, so why pretend I do? For fuck’s sake.

I am absolutely sure there are some people who say that Zimmerman’s testimony is all a pack of lies. That shouldn’t lead you to dodge questions that show Zimmerman’s testimony is inconsistent or nonsensical.

It’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was all hopped up and jumpy and wasn’t thinking straight, and that’s why he crossed back to look for an address on the previous street. He may have walked down the block a bit after finishing his call and then cut over— this would explain why he and Martin ran into each other again, and why it would have come as a shock to both of them. Otherwise, there’s very little ‘innocent’ explanation for why the shooting occurred where it did.

See, that’s dealing with Zimmerman’s inconsistency, giving a rational explanation for it, without having to dodge the question.

700 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:09:35am

re: #696 Targetpractice

I know head wounds bleed, I’ve had plenty of them over the years. Perhaps you remember that those pictures came out after the Sanford PD video, when people pointed to the cleaned-up Zimmerman being walked through the station and declared “He’s got no injuries! He’s totally lying!” I remember because I was one of those who believed it proof of his guilt.

And why did ‘He has very minor injuries!’ change your opinion?

701 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:09:57am

re: #690 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

And I assume that since these threads are so old, you can’t actually back this up.

Sticking to the current thread, you’re saying you wanted to dodge the question because you’re tired of seeing Zimmerman’s inconsistencies used to assert that he was lying about everything. Given that this hasn’t happened in this thread, even if it did in the past, that seems a little bit of a defensive answer.

Wanting to dodge a question that you’re admitting shows inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s account, rather than acknowledging those and dealing with them, doesn’t reflect well on your claim to just want to look at the evidence in a skeptical fashion.

Point of fairness, that’s me. I’m applying the courtroom principle of an ‘impeached witness’.

A witness who has lied about things that can be verified cannot be trusted about the things that cannot be verified.

Because Zimmerman has a number of things about which he has lied, anything he says about things which cannot be verified must be treated with skepticism and doubt.

702 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:11:11am

re: #699 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

See, this bizarre, self-pitying defensiveness doesn’t make you or your argument look good. I’m not accusing you of a damn thing except perhaps being wrong about something. I don’t think it reflects on your morals or your ethics or your worth as a human being, and you know I don’t argue that way, so why pretend I do? For fuck’s sake.

I am absolutely sure there are some people who say that Zimmerman’s testimony is all a pack of lies. That shouldn’t lead you to dodge questions that show Zimmerman’s testimony is inconsistent or nonsensical.

It’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was all hopped up and jumpy and wasn’t thinking straight, and that’s why he crossed back to look for an address on the previous street. He may have walked down the block a bit after finishing his call and then cut over— this would explain why he and Martin ran into each other again, and why it would have come as a shock to both of them. Otherwise, there’s very little ‘innocent’ explanation for why the shooting occurred where it did.

See, that’s dealing with Zimmerman’s inconsistency, giving a rational explanation for it, without having to dodge the question.

And like I’ve said, I’ve been going over all this on other boards for months now. I’m tired of going over the same things over and over again. You consider it defensiveness, I consider it frustration. How long can you beat your head against a wall before you’re too jaded to give people asking you why you’re doing it much consideration?

703 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:12:05am

re: #701 kirkspencer

I don’t think it’s fair to say that he’s ‘lied’, though. He may have lied, he may be confused, semi-delusionally rewriting history to favor himself, etc. I agree his recollection doesn’t match with the facts in many places and that this is one of the main reasons to doubt his recollection of events, but calling it ‘lies’ is a little overly charged for me. People’s accounts of highly-emotional situations are often inconsistent, inaccurate, and varied, since we’re not concentrating on forming good memories.

704 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:12:28am

re: #700 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

And why did ‘He has very minor injuries!’ change your opinion?

I don’t know, why did Edward Snowden’s comments about earning $200K working for the NSA change anybody’s opinion of the man?

705 Iwouldprefernotto  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:12:43am

re: #698 lawhawk

Heh… someone was trying to defend the TX abortion restriction bill and then deleted their twitter because they admitted that it was about shuttering clinics:

[Embedded content]

Oh, and that account is now suspended.

The term “abortion on demand” always bugs me. Does it really mean anything? Would the right be happier if we forced abortions on random individuals?

706 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:13:26am

re: #702 Targetpractice

And like I’ve said, I’ve been going over all this on other boards for months now. I’m tired of going over the same things over and over again. You consider it defensiveness, I consider it frustration. How long can you beat your head against a wall before you’re too jaded to give people asking you why you’re doing it much consideration?

Well, stop posting about it, then, if you’re so tired out, for fuck’s sake. Nobody’s forcing you to. And moreover, you’re talking right now to me, not to these legions of other people, and you know I don’t treat people in the way you’re talking about, so I really fail to see how it has any relevance to our conversation.

707 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:14:19am

re: #704 Targetpractice

I don’t know, why did Edward Snowden’s comments about earning $200K working for the NSA change anybody’s opinion of the man?

That response makes absolutely no sense to what I just asked.

You previously thought that Zimmerman was uninjured. It turns out he was very lightly injured. Why was that sufficient to cause such a big change in your belief? Had you previously believed Zimmerman had stalked the kid and shot him from a distance with no interaction at all or something?

708 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:15:46am

re: #491 Targetpractice

I’m unclear as to how he would have been justified. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman did anything that would give Martin a reasonable fear of injury or death. And he had the opportunity to run, but chose to confront.

He stalked Martin at night while wearing a gun, and Zimmerman not only had the opportunity to run, he had ample opportunity not to continue his pursuit. Instead he chose to follow and confront. Your shilling for Zimmerman is now biased without either dignity or reason.

709 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:16:10am

Of course he knew. Rand Paul is a racist Neo-Confederate theocrat. He’s going to hire accordingly:

710 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:16:30am

Cool!

Huge Sunspot Facing the Earth: Watch It Live Today

A huge sunspot 11 times the size of Earth is facing our planet now and you can see live telescope views of the solar behemoth in a skywatching webcast today.

The giant sunspot AR1785 will star in a free webcast by the onlineskywatching website Slooh Space Camera Tuesday (July 9) at 1 p.m. EDT (1700 GMT) and last about 25 minutes.

You can watch the sunspot webcast live on SPACE.com, courtesy of Slooh.

It starts at 1:00 est.

711 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:16:46am

re: #706 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, stop posting about it, then, if you’re so tired out, for fuck’s sake. Nobody’s forcing you to. And moreover, you’re talking right now to me, not to these legions of other people, and you know I don’t treat people in the way you’re talking about, so I really fail to see how it has any relevance to our conversation.

That’s the difference between a one-on-one conversation and one versus dozens. I can see in you that you’ve got doubts, but you’ve also got an open mind. I’ve run into too many people who have neither and are still repeating “facts” the media sold them a year ago.

712 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:17:03am

re: #705 Iwouldprefernotto

“Eugenics”?

713 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:17:37am

re: #707 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

That response makes absolutely no sense to what I just asked.

You previously thought that Zimmerman was uninjured. It turns out he was very lightly injured. Why was that sufficient to cause such a big change in your belief? Had you previously believed Zimmerman had stalked the kid and shot him from a distance with no interaction at all or something?

Yes, I was just as much as a supporter of the view that Zimmerman was a murder as anyone else on this board.

714 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:17:38am

re: #703 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I don’t think it’s fair to say that he’s ‘lied’, though. He may have lied, he may be confused, semi-delusionally rewriting history to favor himself, etc. I agree his recollection doesn’t match with the facts in many places and that this is one of the main reasons to doubt his recollection of events, but calling it ‘lies’ is a little overly charged for me. People’s accounts of highly-emotional situations are often inconsistent, inaccurate, and varied, since we’re not concentrating on forming good memories.

Why the testimony conflicts with independent facts does not matter. It does, and therefore his testimony cannot be trusted.

I agree that it’s my opinion he is lying and that there are other possible excuses for the errors. But the errors exist and exist in multiple points of the evidence trail.

715 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:18:28am

re: #711 Targetpractice

That’s the difference between a one-on-one conversation and one versus dozens. I can see in you that you’ve got doubts, but you’ve also got an open mind. I’ve run into too many people who have neither and are still repeating “facts” the media sold them a year ago.

But what the fuck relevance do those other people have to you and I talking here?

You’ve made factual mistakes too— like claiming that ‘fear’ is in the self-defense law. It’s a complex subject that doesn’t have direct bearing, of course people talking about it are going to make mistakes.

716 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:19:06am

re: #714 kirkspencer

Why the testimony conflicts with independent facts does not matter. It does, and therefore his testimony cannot be trusted.

I agree that it’s my opinion he is lying and that there are other possible excuses for the errors. But the errors exist and exist in multiple points of the evidence trail.

Oh, well, I start off from not really trusting eyewitness testimony anyway, but think it’s impossible to tell if the reason for a divergent story is duplicity or just being human.

717 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:19:25am

re: #702 Targetpractice

And like I’ve said, I’ve been going over all this on other boards for months now. I’m tired of going over the same things over and over again. You consider it defensiveness, I consider it frustration. How long can you beat your head against a wall before you’re too jaded to give people asking you why you’re doing it much consideration?

We can only go by what you post here. If you’re tired of going over it, you really shouldn’t post.

As it is, this is very weak rhetoric. You look like very suspect, both in a rhetorical sense and in a prejudicial sense.

718 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:19:36am

re: #705 Iwouldprefernotto

The term “abortion on demand” always bugs me. Does it really mean anything? Would the right be happier if we forced abortions on random individuals?

It is meaningless. It’s an attempt to make all people undergoing abortion procedures look as if they dedicated as much thought and struggle to it as they would to picking out a movie.

719 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:20:39am

Ugh. Morning. Too early. Electricians. Mountain Dew. Catboxes.

720 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:20:53am

re: #708 goddamnedfrank

He stalked Martin at night while wearing a gun, and Zimmerman not only had the opportunity to run, he had ample opportunity not to continue his pursuit. Instead he chose to follow and confront. Your shilling for Zimmerman is now biased without either dignity or reason.

Doesn’t seem to be considering culpability for criminal recklessness at least.

721 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:21:11am
722 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:21:15am

re: #718 twisty

If these same folks who want to make abortion rare (while legal), then they ought to be supporting widespread use of birth control and making sure that it’s part of insurance coverage. Except they’re fighting to block that too.

723 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:21:49am

re: #722 lawhawk

If these same folks who want to make abortion rare (while legal), then they ought to be supporting widespread use of birth control and making sure that it’s part of insurance coverage. Except they’re fighting to block that too.

That’s because it’s a silent abortion, don’tchaknow.

/////

724 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:22:02am
725 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:22:03am

Lies from Zimmerman

He wasn’t following Martin, he was just trying to find an address
He had never even heard of SYG before this (as told to Hannity) In actuality he took a course that went over SYG and self defense and got an A grade.

Very Questionable

His head was repeatedly slammed into the concrete
After the shooting, he moved Martins arms straight out to the side of his body, yet the first person on the scene took a photo with both Martins hands underneath his body.

726 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:22:27am

re: #715 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But what the fuck relevance do those other people have to you and I talking here?

You’ve made factual mistakes too— like claiming that ‘fear’ is in the self-defense law. It’s a complex subject that doesn’t have direct bearing, of course people talking about it are going to make mistakes.

It is a complex subject, I admit, and my memory is not the best. I know “fear” is in the SYG statute, while “reasonable belief” is (IIRC) in the self-defense statute. I’ve read them all and seem to have gotten them jumbled in my head.

727 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:23:07am
728 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:23:45am

re: #721 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLL!

Seriously though, I think at this point Snowden just wants to get somewhere, regardless of the government he finds there. His options are limited and he knows it.

729 dragonath  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:24:49am

re: #709 Lidane

Uh, “Anglo-Celtic” culture? What’s that? Northern Ireland?

Looks like the right is trying to get in front of this quickly.

730 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:26:00am

re: #726 Targetpractice

It is a complex subject, I admit, and my memory is not the best. I know “fear” is in the SYG statute, while “reasonable belief” is (IIRC) in the self-defense statute. I’ve read them all and seem to have gotten them jumbled in my head.

Right, and that, while not idea, is understandable and fine. Likewise, if someone asserts something else that’s not true, it’s not a reason to dismiss them in the conversation or to say that they’re still saying stuff that was proved wrong long ago.

731 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:26:31am

re: #730 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Right, and that, while not idea, is understandable and fine. Likewise, if someone asserts something else that’s not true, it’s not a reason to dismiss them in the conversation or to say that they’re still saying stuff that was proved wrong long ago.

Agreed.

732 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:27:14am

re: #689 efuseakay

So how did he end up killing Martin where he did if he was just looking for an address?

Image: map_1000.jpg

I count at least 10+ addresses he could have looked at before going behind the apartments to confront Martin.

So he’s full of BS.

733 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:27:16am

re: #508 Targetpractice

And? Does his being dead mean he wasn’t a participant in events that evening?

About as much as the pig was a participant to the bacon on your breakfast plate.

734 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:28:44am

My question is (and I apologize since it’s probably been answered in one of the myriad Zimmerman conversations here lately) what relevance, if any, does the fact the 911 dispatcher told him to stay put have on the case?

Someone mentioned a couple of days ago that the dispatcher is not an LEO. Even accepting that, most people would think it good common sense that when you call 911, you should probably do what the dispatcher ordered.

Even if Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin, the cops were already on their way, they could well have caught up with him later.

735 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:29:38am

re: #729 dragonath

Looks like the right is trying to get in front of this quickly.

They can try, but Rand Paul has already established himself as a racist douche. It’s not going to work.

736 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:30:10am

re: #734 Eclectic Cyborg

My question is (and I apologize since it’s probably been answered in one of the myriad Zimmerman conversations here lately) what relevance, if any, does the fact the 911 dispatcher told him to stay put have on the case?

Someone mentioned a couple of days ago that the dispatcher is not an LEO. Even accepting that, most people would think it good common sense that when you call 911, you should probably do what the dispatcher ordered.

Even if Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin, the cops were already on their way, they could well have caught up with him later.

State’s case is that Zimmerman ignored orders from the Non-Emergancy dispatcher, indicating overzealous behavior and a disregard for human life.

737 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:30:12am

re: #704 Targetpractice

I don’t know, why did Edward Snowden’s comments about earning $200K working for the NSA change anybody’s opinion of the man?

Can we say “deflection”.

738 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:30:59am

re: #710 NJDhockeyfan

Cool!

Huge Sunspot Facing the Earth: Watch It Live Today

It starts at 1:00 est.

Can’t, I’m currently watching a mole on my arm.

739 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:31:17am

Lead balloons have more traction than this nonsense:

740 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:31:41am

re: #738 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Can’t, I’m currently watching a mole on my arm.

Might want to be careful, I hear those things can bite.

741 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:31:54am

re: #739 Lidane

Lead balloons have more traction than this nonsense:

[Embedded content]

If a lead balloon had no traction, it’d float, and also, some lead balloons can float.

742 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:32:48am

re: #741 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

If a lead balloon had no traction, it’d float, and also, some lead balloons can float.

Found that out on Mythbusters.

743 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:33:01am

re: #741 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

If a lead balloon had no traction, it’d float, and also, some lead balloons can float.

OK fine. Poor phrasing on my part. The point stands. A lead balloon stands a better chance of floating than Sully’s ideas.

744 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:33:36am
745 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:34:38am

Jesushchrist, there is so much speculation in this pathologist’s testimony that the State is only objecting to the most obvious ones.

746 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:35:18am

re: #745 Justanotherhuman

Jesushchrist, there is so much speculation in this pathologist’s testimony that the State is only objecting to the most obvious ones.

That’s the drawback when one can only go on photos and notes done by others.

747 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:36:32am

re: #745 Justanotherhuman

Jesushchrist, there is so much speculation in this pathologist’s testimony that the State is only objecting to the most obvious ones.

Let me rip your heart out. I want to see if you can still recite a limerick before you run out of time.

748 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:37:50am

re: #747 darthstar

Let me rip your heart out. I want to see if you can still recite a limerick before you run out of time.

Can it be a dirty limerick?

749 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:37:58am

re: #734 Eclectic Cyborg

My question is (and I apologize since it’s probably been answered in one of the myriad Zimmerman conversations here lately) what relevance, if any, does the fact the 911 dispatcher told him to stay put have on the case?

Someone mentioned a couple of days ago that the dispatcher is not an LEO. Even accepting that, most people would think it good common sense that when you call 911, you should probably do what the dispatcher ordered.

Even if Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin, the cops were already on their way, they could well have caught up with him later.

It wasn’t a 911 dispatcher, it was a non-emergency dispatcher. They have no authority (hence his saying “You don’t need to do that” vs. Don’t Follow Him.) No one has to listen to a dispatcher. But as a person who respects law and someone who gives authority to police (no matter what the rank), if a dispatcher I called told me anything, I would be paying attention, and likely do what they said (unless it put me in harm’s way).

Zimmerman wanted to catch the black kid he imagined was going to rob someone.

I am sure that much of what Zimmerman said may have been what he think (or has to think) happened. This guy is going to have to live with being a murderous shit no matter whether that life is inside or outside of a prison.

750 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:38:10am
751 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:38:12am

re: #745 Justanotherhuman

There’s quite a bit of strategy involved in when and how to objection. You don’t want to object to every detail, because it then seems like you’re scared of what he’s saying, but focusing on the most egregious issues allows you to get those parts stricken and get your point across that the testimony is full of inconsistencies or mischaracterizations, etc.

752 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:38:40am

re: #746 Targetpractice

Of course, an unarmed teenager has no right to protect himself against someone who is stalking him on his way to his father’s apt?

Someone who did not identify himself in any form or fashion. How did Trayvon Martin know that Z wasn’t intent on robbing him?

IMHO, FL is as racist now as it was when I was a teen in the 1950s.

753 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:38:41am

re: #722 lawhawk

Yes. I know I’m far from the first to say so but I’ll say it again: that inconsistency betrays that the true motivation is punishing a woman for having sex. The idea that an unmarried woman might be able to “get away” with sex horrifies some of these people. They want fear of consequences to push people into the kinds of behavior they approve of, nothing more, nothing less.

I’ll admit I’m one of the people disquieted by even first trimester abortion, but — this is extremely foggy moral territory. I refuse to force a person against their will to host another organism that has such a huge medical and personal impact on the body and life. The real pro-life position is, as you said, increasing access to birth control, along with sex education, doing something for the many existing children who have no home, fighting the death penalty, advocating against bloodshed, etc etc.

754 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:39:05am

re: #743 Lidane

OK fine. Poor phrasing on my part. The point stands. A lead balloon stands a better chance of floating than Sully’s ideas.

DAMN YOU MYTHBUSTERS!!!

755 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:39:29am


Thank you, TSA, that is very very very helpful. Say, do you have any tips for how to reassure stupid Americans in case they spot a Jew person doing Jew stuff?

Observant travelers may be wearing a head covering, prayer shawl, and phylacteries — in Hebrew, kippah, tallit, and tefillin. Some travelers will be carrying boxes of matzoh, which are consumed as part of the Passover ritual.

Haha except Passover occurs during March or April. If you see someone carrying a matzo-size box, it’s probably a pizza.

756 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:39:42am

re: #747 darthstar

Kali ma! Kali ma!

Youtube Video

757 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:40:30am

Pffft. It’s only a letter from the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. What the hell would they know about women’s health?

758 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:40:41am

re: #756 lawhawk

Kali ma! Kali ma!

[Embedded content]

The defense might want to use that documentary evidence.

759 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:40:51am

re: #752 Justanotherhuman

Of course, an unarmed teenager has no right to protect himself against someone who is stalking him on his way to his father’s apt?

Someone who did not identify himself in any form or fashion. How did Trayvon Martin know that Z wasn’t intent on robbing him?

IMHO, FL is as racist now as it was when I was a teen in the 1950s.

I’m sorry, I was trying to suggest that months old photos and notes, in absence of hands-on evidence, would lead to a lot of speculation. Even the State’s ME could only go based on his own notes, as he stated he had no recollection of the autopsy besides it being “routine.”

760 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:41:38am

re: #758 darthstar

Well, they’re about to enter the Chewbacca defense phase in closing… so why not. /

761 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:42:43am

Defense picture of Trayvon Martin from animation…

Image: Orc_Warrior_wallpaper.jpg

762 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:43:41am

re: #761 darthstar

Defense picture of Trayvon Martin from animation…

Image: Orc_Warrior_wallpaper.jpg

And Zimmerman.

Image: skinnyguyk.jpg

763 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:44:25am

re: #762 darthstar

And Zimmerman.

Image: skinnyguyk.jpg

Hey, how did you find my yearbook picture?!

//

764 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:44:39am
765 dragonath  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:44:41am

The South gets a lot of grief about a lot of things, but Texas and North Carolina citizens have been a lot more vocal about abortion restrictions than, say, Wisconsin and Ohio.

I didn’t even hear about the Wisconsin one until it passed (and was blocked).

766 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:44:49am

re: #759 Targetpractice

At least he had his own notes on what he saw in real time. This pathologist is only going on photos, evidently.

I just hope the jury takes that in mind.

767 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:46:02am

re: #766 Justanotherhuman

At least he had his own notes on what he saw in real time. This pathologist is only going on photos, evidently.

I just hope the jury takes that in mind.

Dr. Rao for the State also was going on photos when emphasizing how minor his injuries were. Think the highlight of her testimony was suggestions that Zimmerman just has a lumpy skull.

768 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:46:13am

re: #738 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

Can’t, I’m currently watching a mole on my arm.

MOLEYMOLEYMOLEYMOLEYMOLEY!

769 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:47:43am

re: #661 Targetpractice

That’s not my recollection. I remember it changing about the time that the initial evidence began coming out during discovery. I remember being as incensed as most when rumors began going around about things going on at school, same as the initial accusations of marijuana usage.

Yeah, you were really incensed.

What about 4 minutes?

And if Zimmerman’s history prior to the shooting is game, why not Martin’s? The empty baggie? The jewelry and screwdriver? The THC in his blood? I’ll stop at the last and note that I’ve never met an angry pothead, but I’ve also never seen somebody coming off a high who was making all the right decisions. I’d consider it plausible that Martin was not high at the time, but had been earlier that day, and still had enough THC in his blood that he thought confronting Zimmerman was a good idea.

In fact, from the very beginning you’ve been interpreting everything in a light so one sided and favorable to Zimmerman that you were virtually positive the case would never go to trial. Not trial for murder, trial for anything.

770 John Vreeland  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:48:18am

re: #35 Kragar

“Uppity feminists” is such a telling phrase. A person who is “uppity” does not know their place in society—somewhere down low—and keeps insisting otherwise. We tolerate them, poor dears, but they are very annoying.

771 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:50:58am

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - some asshat decided to create an “Angry Trayvon” game for iphones and droids. It’s now been pulled from both. The game was apparently up for about 10 months though…

772 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:51:58am

The same female Republican legislator who said that rape kits could be used to “clean women out” in an ER:

773 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:52:17am

re: #748 Targetpractice

Can it be a dirty limerick?

A charming young lass from Nantucket…

774 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:52:52am

re: #769 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, you were really incensed.

In fact, from the very beginning you’ve been interpreting everything in a light so one sided and favorable to Zimmerman that you were virtually positive the case would never go to trial. Not trial for murder, trial for anything.

What really pisses me off is that there is a toxicology report on the victim, but not the accused. Maybe Zimmerman was high on something, or maybe he was off his meds. We know from testimony that he sees a psychologist, which is fine of course, but was he on medication as well?

775 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:53:04am

re: #772 Lidane

The same female Republican legislator who said that rape kits could be used to “clean women out” in an ER:

[Embedded content]

OFFS

776 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:53:23am

re: #769 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, you were really incensed.

In fact, from the very beginning you’ve been interpreting everything in a light so one sided and favorable to Zimmerman that you were virtually positive the case would never go to trial. Not trial for murder, trial for anything.

There were other topics, earlier topics, from those. But even then, I was beginning to have doubts as to the State’s odds at winning an SYG hearing, let alone successfully prosecuting Zimmerman for murder. My current position is one that he’s likely to be acquitted, not because he did nothing wrong or stupid that night, but because the State can’t prove he did enough to obviate self-defense.

777 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:53:30am

re: #772 Lidane

?!

Forget literacy tests for voters, how about science tests for lawmakers?

778 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:53:48am

re: #772 Lidane

The same female Republican legislator who said that rape kits could be used to “clean women out” in an ER:

[Embedded content]

Jesus wept.

779 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:53:49am

Getting testy at the Bulger trial:

780 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:54:22am

re: #774 blueraven

What really pisses me off is that there is a toxicology report on the victim, but not the accused. Maybe Zimmerman was high on something, or maybe he was off his meds. We know from testimony that he sees a psychologist, which is fine of course, but was he on medication as well?

Tox screen is normal for autopsies. And the State had access to his medical records, so if they thought that the drugs he was on or might be on at the time of the shooting would alter his state of mind, they didn’t see fit to include that in their case.

781 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:54:34am
782 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:54:57am

re: #777 twisty

?!

Forget literacy tests for voters, how about science tests for lawmakers?

If that ever gets implemented, you can rest assured the Texas State Board of Education will somehow end up creating the test.

783 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:55:00am

re: #699 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

See, this bizarre, self-pitying defensiveness

re: #708 goddamnedfrank

He stalked Martin at night while wearing a gun, and Zimmerman not only had the opportunity to run, he had ample opportunity not to continue his pursuit. Instead he chose to follow and confront. Your shilling for Zimmerman is now biased without either dignity or reason.

Way too many attempts to just explore & discuss the possibilities that happen to point away from conviction are being taken as shilling for Zimmerman. Nobody here today is shilling for Zimmerman.

784 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:56:08am

re: #757 Lidane

Pffft. It’s only a letter from the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. What the hell would they know about women’s health?

[Embedded content]

Clearly, ACOG is a Soros funded liberal group and should be completely ignored.

785 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:56:25am

re: #140 bratwurst

The Twinkies we used to know had a shelf life of 26 days. For what is ostensibly a “baked good”, that is frightening. But the new Twinkies soon to hit the shelves will have a shelf life of 45 days! If that weren’t bad enough, some will be delivered to stores frozen so retailers can stamp their own expiration dates on the “cakes”!

Anyone who feeds this “food” to their children needs their head examined. Yes, I got them as a kid myself…and yes, I dealt with about 20 years of weight problems.

45 days? Pfft. I’m waiting for the immortal Twinkie; the ones with no expiration date. I can buy ‘em now, and eat ‘em in 2039.

786 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:56:26am

re: #783 Political Atheist

Way too many attempts to just explore & discuss the possibilities that happen to point away from conviction are being taken as shilling for Zimmerman. Nobody here today is shilling for Zimmerman.

Which was the point of my comment about Snowden, being skeptical about him or what he’s saying does not make one an “Obamabot.”

787 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:56:48am

re: #772 Lidane

Hard to believe she even went to elementary school, much less got a college degree: texastribune.org

788 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:56:53am

re: #785 Dr Lizardo

45 days? Pfft. I’m waiting for the immortal Twinkie; the ones with no expiration date. I can buy ‘em now, and eat ‘em in 2039.

What about the ones that can survive a nuclear war?

789 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:56:58am

re: #780 Targetpractice

Tox screen is normal for autopsies. And the State had access to his medical records, so if they thought that the drugs he was on or might be on at the time of the shooting would alter his state of mind, they didn’t see fit to include that in their case.

really? You think Zimmerman’s doctors have to reveal treatment? Isn’t that protected DR/patient info?

790 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:57:02am

re: #772 Lidane

The same female Republican legislator who said that rape kits could be used to “clean women out” in an ER:

[Embedded content]

Republican’s make me hate humanity sometimes.

791 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:57:22am

re: #785 Dr Lizardo

45 days? Pfft. I’m waiting for the immortal Twinkie; the ones with no expiration date. I can buy ‘em now, and eat ‘em in 2039.

I point you to the case of the McDonald’s hamburgers that have not rotted one bit sitting on a shelf for over a year.

792 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:57:33am

re: #783 Political Atheist

Way too many attempts to just explore & discuss the possibilities that happen to point away from conviction are being taken as shilling for Zimmerman. Nobody here today is shilling for Zimmerman.

Yeah, see, I was talking about the bizarre, self-pitying defensiveness in regards to me, and what I said. Asking me what I was going to accuse him of. For fuck’s sake.

793 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:57:57am

re: #710 NJDhockeyfan

Cool!

Huge Sunspot Facing the Earth: Watch It Live Today

It starts at 1:00 est.

rats…a one hour delay due to cloud cover…

794 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:58:38am

re: #779 geoffm33

Getting testy at the Bulger trial:

[Embedded content]

Well, I think that trial has some amusement value to be sure.

“You dirty rat!”

795 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:58:42am

re: #691 Gus

That is seriously magical looking!

796 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:58:45am

re: #776 Targetpractice

So you think an armed person who chased after a teenager going home to his dad’s constitutes “self-defense” even after he was advised not to leave his truck? I don’t.

797 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:59:00am
798 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:59:30am

re: #797 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Because shut up.

799 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 9:59:57am

re: #789 blueraven

really? You think Zimmerman’s doctors have to reveal treatment? Isn’t that protected DR/patient info?

Not being a legal expert, my understanding was that ones medical records can and are subject to warrants in cases such as these. Else the State wouldn’t have tried to get his entire medical file entered into evidence.

800 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:00:13am
801 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:00:29am

re: #794 Joanne

It was funny seeing the surveillance photos that were shown yesterday. The same exact (or atleast from the same day’s) pictures that have been in Whitey books for 5+ years.

802 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:00:54am

re: #800 Lidane

[Embedded content]

The Texas legislature has become less than a farce.

803 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:01:06am

re: #797 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Blah blah the bootstraps of liberty blah blah fake/misattributed quote blah blah .

804 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:01:09am

re: #788 Targetpractice

What about the ones that can survive a nuclear war?

That would be cool. Twinkies and cockroaches.

There’s a song there, somewhere…….

805 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:01:19am

re: #796 Justanotherhuman

So you think an armed person who chased after a teenager going home to his dad’s constitutes “self-defense” even after he was advised not to leave his truck? I don’t.

This was covered by Carter’s testimony last week, particularly imperfect self-defense. That the aggressor can shift in such cases when disproportionate force is used by one party in response to aggression by the other.

806 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:01:29am

How I can manage to misplace a 6 inch tall blue squirt bottle is beyond me, but I cannot find it anywhere. The cats are probably pleased, as it is the punishment bottle, but it is making cleaning up yesterday’s hairball (and the two other sections of cat vomit, sigh) rather difficult.

807 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:01:49am

re: #799 Targetpractice

Not being a legal expert, my understanding was that ones medical records can and are subject to warrants in cases such as these. Else the State wouldn’t have tried to get his entire medical file entered into evidence.

OK say he was taking anti anxiety meds…and what if he didn’t that day? Or the day before. We will never know.

808 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:02:15am

re: #806 klys

How I can manage to misplace a 6 inch tall blue squirt bottle is beyond me, but I cannot find it anywhere. The cats are probably pleased, as it is the punishment bottle, but it is making cleaning up yesterday’s hairball (and the two other sections of cat vomit, sigh) rather difficult.

Sure they didn’t hide it?

809 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:02:23am

re: #774 blueraven

I’m not convinced of the utility. When they talked about marijuana is a toxicology report, can they even tell what level of inebriation is there? Not hard to imagine an irrelevant joint the day before showing up in a screening, or just a weekend habit. Can technology tell from blood if a person was high or just a smoker? High or did coke two days earlier?
I would expect a blood draw from anyone apart from cops who fires a gun at a person let alone hits or kills them.

re: #792 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Actually that was included in error, but so be it. I found that characterization overstated.

810 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:02:25am

re: #806 klys

How I can manage to misplace a 6 inch tall blue squirt bottle is beyond me, but I cannot find it anywhere. The cats are probably pleased, as it is the punishment bottle, but it is making cleaning up yesterday’s hairball (and the two other sections of cat vomit, sigh) rather difficult.

The cats have captured it, and are using it to build a weapon of mass destruction.

811 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:02:46am

re: #808 Targetpractice

Sure they didn’t hide it?

re: #810 Vicious Babushka

The cats have captured it, and are using it to build a weapon of mass destruction.

I am coming to this conclusion.

812 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:03:00am

re: #797 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

George Carlin explained it many years ago.

Youtube Video

I miss George.

813 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:03:04am

re: #807 blueraven

OK say he was taking anti anxiety meds…and what if he didn’t that day? Or the day before. We will never know.

I’m unaware what he was undergoing treatment for, so the medication on would be speculation on my part.

814 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:03:33am

re: #809 Political Atheist

Actually that was included in error, but so be it. I found that characterization overstated.

I’d call it completely fictitious and without any basis, which also counts as irony.

815 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:04:12am

re: #809 Political Atheist

I’m not convinced of the utility. When they talked about marijuana is a toxicology report, can they even tell what level of inebriation is there? Not hard to imagine an irrelevant joint the day before showing up in a screening, or just a weekend habit. Can technology tell from blood if a person was high or just a smoker? High or did coke two days earlier?
I would expect a blood draw from anyone apart from cops who fires a gun at a person let alone hits or kills them.

Actually that was included in error, but so be it. I found that characterization overstated.

It is prejudicial to have the jury hear it.

816 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:04:26am
817 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:05:05am

re: #809 Political Atheist

I’m not convinced of the utility. When they talked about marijuana is a toxicology report, can they even tell what level of inebriation is there? Not hard to imagine an irrelevant joint the day before showing up in a screening, or just a weekend habit. Can technology tell from blood if a person was high or just a smoker? High or did coke two days earlier?
I would expect a blood draw from anyone apart from cops who fires a gun at a person let alone hits or kills them.

Actually that was included in error, but so be it. I found that characterization overstated.

Not that it really matters, apparently, as the Defense seems to have gone ahead and junked whatever strategy they had concerning the THC level they won a victory yesterday to bring into the trial. Not that I blame them, too much question as to whether the method the blood was drawn in would alter the levels.

818 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:06:26am

re: #779 geoffm33

Getting testy at the Bulger trial:

[Embedded content]

That trial sounds more entertaining than the prosecution of Trayvon Martin.

819 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:07:13am

re: #816 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

If you’re against legal abortions, you support Gosnell.

820 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:07:17am

re: #777 twisty

?!

Forget literacy tests for voters, how about science tests for lawmakers?

What’s really horrifying is the fact that some of those lawmakers are MDs and OB-Gyns…

821 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:07:24am

re: #805 Targetpractice

Yet how can a dead person testify that proper self-defense against an aggressor such as Z was either right or “imperfect”? He can’t. So all we have is Z’s word and his “experts” trying to contradict prosecution testimony that undue force was not used by TM, according to the injuries sustained by Z.

But it’s damned obvious that excess force was used by Z to stop any such altercation.

822 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:07:45am

re: #806 klys

The cats are probably pleased, as it is the punishment bottle.

I’ve been a fan of the squirt bottle method of deterrence for a long time. I call mine “The Agonizer”.

Youtube Video

823 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:08:10am

re: #816 Vicious Babushka

So, no jury duty? Or did I miss that?

824 Bear  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:09:00am

re: #806 klys

Glad I do not have carpets. Much easier to clean up on hardwood or tile.

825 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:09:24am

re: #809 Political Atheist

I’m not convinced of the utility. When they talked about marijuana is a toxicology report, can they even tell what level of inebriation is there? Not hard to imagine an irrelevant joint the day before showing up in a screening, or just a weekend habit. Can technology tell from blood if a person was high or just a smoker? High or did coke two days earlier?
I would expect a blood draw from anyone apart from cops who fires a gun at a person let alone hits or kills them.
[snip]

Answering the question I was bolding, yes they can determine level of inebriation. Unlike the urine test (which measures residue and which lingers for a long time) the blood test can tell exactly how much intoxicating material per unit of blood exists.

826 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:09:38am

re: #785 Dr Lizardo

45 days? Pfft. I’m waiting for the immortal Twinkie; the ones with no expiration date. I can buy ‘em now, and eat ‘em in 2039.

I remember the good old days when the saying was “Twinkies will last a thousand years in a landfill and still be as edible (not) as they day it came off the shelf”.

827 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:09:51am

re: #823 Justanotherhuman

So, no jury duty? Or did I miss that?

I reported at the courthouse, hung out in the jury lounge for 2 hours, then the judges came by to let us know that the 2 cases scheduled for today were resolved and would not go to trial.

So I went home, ate lunch and now I’m back at work.

828 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:09:53am

re: #821 Justanotherhuman

Yet how can a dead person testify that proper self-defense against an aggressor such as Z was either right or “imperfect”? He can’t. So all we have is Z’s word and his “experts” trying to contradict prosecution testimony that undue force was not used by TM, according to the injuries sustained by Z.

But it’s damned obvious that excess force was used by Z to stop any such altercation.

I would think that a punch in the nose, even if not that hard of one, would be excessive in response to somebody giving a verbal response to a question asked. And holding them on the ground, even if just to keep them there until the cops showed up, would only compound that.

829 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:10:16am

re: #824 Bear

Glad I do not have carpets. Much easier to clean up on hardwood or tile.

I would love to rip this carpet out, you have no idea.

830 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:10:22am

re: #822 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Youtube Video

831 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:11:34am

Whatever fun toy the electrician is using trills when he holds it near the wires.

(Still no squirt bottle.)

832 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:12:32am

re: #831 klys

Whatever fun toy the electrician is using trills when he holds it near the wires.

(Still no squirt bottle.)

Can’t you just go out and buy another one?

833 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:13:08am

re: #832 Vicious Babushka

Can’t you just go out and buy another one?

Knowing my luck, I’d go out to buy a new bottle, come back, and find the old one sitting on the kitchen table.

834 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:13:33am

re: #805 Targetpractice

This was covered by Carter’s testimony last week, particularly imperfect self-defense. That the aggressor can shift in such cases when disproportionate force is used by one party in response to aggression by the other.

This relies on testimony from an unreliable witness.

I don’t think this is as significant as your are making it out to be.

835 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:13:59am

re: #833 Targetpractice

Knowing my luck, I’d go out to buy a new bottle, come back, and find the old one sitting on the kitchen table.

Then you would have 2!

836 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:14:23am

re: #834 gwangung

This relies on testimony from an unreliable witness.

I don’t think this is as significant as your are making it out to be.

Okay, so take out the unreliable testimony. What evidence is there that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that would equal a punch in the face?

837 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:14:29am

re: #477 twisty

If the law states that being in a fight justifies deadly force, I’m a bit concerned.

It states thatif you feel your life is in danger (of being Skittled to death, for example) then you may use deadly force.

And more importantly, the police can be charged for booking you for suspected homicide/murder, so they have to back off and not initiate an investigation.

So fer chrissakes, leave no living witnesses…

838 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:15:38am

re: #828 Targetpractice

OK, then, you are going by Z’s acct of what happened? His is the only version really available.

839 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:16:44am

re: #825 kirkspencer

Answering the question I was bolding, yes they can determine level of inebriation. Unlike the urine test (which measures residue and which lingers for a long time) the blood test can tell exactly how much intoxicating material per unit of blood exists.

Do blood levels correlate directly with inebriation levels?

840 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:17:03am

re: #818 darthstar

Entertaining in that it reads like a movie script from a gangster movie. But a lot of people had their families ripped apart, loved ones killed and the drug trafficking into the neighborhood (my neighborhood for the past decade) is still taking it’s toll.

841 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:17:09am

re: #838 Justanotherhuman

OK, then, you are going by Z’s acct of what happened? His is the only version really available.

I’ve stopped and looked at things without his testimony in mind, assumed he was totally lying. But to obviate self-defense, I also have to assume Good is lying. I have to assume Dr. Bao is lying about no injuries to Martin besides his hands and chest. I have to assume that Zimmerman was already lying to the dispatcher before he even knew where Martin was.

Too many assumptions for me to feel comfortable.

842 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:17:31am

re: #818 darthstar

That trial sounds more entertaining than the prosecution of Trayvon Martin.

The only difference is that Trayvon Martin is on trial for being a black kid in the wrong place at the wrong time - as judged by George Zimmerman. Martin, apparently, is the one on trial for being a kid.

If I was going to be held responsible for all time for all the shit I did as a teenager, I certainly wouldn’t be where and who I am today.

843 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:18:06am

re: #836 Targetpractice

Okay, so take out the unreliable testimony. What evidence is there that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that would equal a punch in the face?

At best, there is no evidence either way. There are multiple competing hypotheses that fit the evidence. You could as easily argue that Zimmerman blocked Martin’s path to his father’s home, which is an aggressive act.

I can see arguing there is not enough evidence for the prosecution’s case. There is absolutely no evidence to place any culpability on Martin. Your feeble attempts to do so is quite revealing about your own personal biases.

844 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:18:51am

re: #841 Targetpractice

I’ve stopped and looked at things without his testimony in mind, assumed he was totally lying. But to obviate self-defense, I also have to assume Good is lying. I have to assume Dr. Bao is lying about no injuries to Martin besides his hands and chest.

No, you do not.

And you now reveal your personal prejudices.

845 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:19:10am

re: #843 gwangung

At best, there is no evidence either way. There are multiple competing hypotheses that fit the evidence. You could as easily argue that Zimmerman blocked Martin’s path to his father’s home, which is an aggressive act.

I can see arguing there is not enough evidence for the prosecution’s case. There is absolutely no evidence to place any culpability on Martin. Your feeble attempts to do so is quite revealing about your own personal biases.

My personal bias is one of assuming nobody’s a saint. To quote a wise man, “everybody lies.”

846 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:19:53am

re: #844 gwangung

No, you do not.

And you now reveal your personal prejudices.

Again, if you want to call me a racist, just do it. Don’t waste space trying to act as if you’re not.

847 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:20:15am

re: #845 Targetpractice

My personal bias is one of assuming nobody’s a saint. To quote a wise man, “everybody lies.”

Poor rhetoric and more revealing of your own biases than of the case.

Very weak sauce.

848 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:20:44am

So, the team’s resident fuck up just announced out of the blue that he is going in for surgery this friday (which he apparently knew about for weeks) and I’ll be handling his workload for the rest of the month on top of my own.

849 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:20:57am

re: #587 Targetpractice

Is there evidence that was not obtained that would have proven Zimmerman’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

The trial as we know it would not be on, it would not be a major national headline show trial, and I asm sure there would be a lot more conclusive evidence as to what occured beyond Zimmermann’s choreographed CGI clown fight.

850 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:20:57am

Wingnuts are Tweeting Trayvon’s photos of himself that were found on his phone and Facebook, of himself smoking weed, demand to know why these were excluded from the testimony.

DUH because:

1. Zimmerman did not see these photos and so could not have been influenced by them

2. Smoking weed is not a death penalty crime.

851 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:21:25am

re: #842 Joanne

My point exactly. And while I think the media coverage is awful, I do understand why they score this like an election debate. I’m hoping the jury is filled with at least a few critical thinkers who can let fact, and not emotion or sympathy for the defendant, influence their deliberation arguments.

852 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:22:10am

re: #836 Targetpractice

Okay, so take out the unreliable testimony. What evidence is there that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that would equal a punch in the face?

We don’t know because Trayvon Martin is dead and the only thing we have is testimony from a guy who doesn’t want to spend his days in prison.

853 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:22:12am

re: #839 wrenchwench

Do blood levels correlate directly with inebriation levels?

For legal purposes, yes. See Blood Alcohol Content for DWI conviction.

How much the substance actually interferes with individual performance depends on a number of factors.

854 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:22:29am

re: #850 Vicious Babushka

Wingnuts are just hoping for acquittal because they see this as an Us-vs-Them trial.

855 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:22:42am

The God of Unbelievers Shines down on us today:

Santorum to jump into Texas abortion ban battle

politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com

856 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:22:49am

re: #812 Dr Lizardo

I miss George.

George Carlin had a massive influence on me when I was a kid. I used to buy comedy albums back in middle school and high school and he was easily my favorite. I learned a lot from listening to him at that age. It’s served me well.

857 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:22:52am

re: #776 Targetpractice

There were other topics, earlier topics, from those. But even then, I was beginning to have doubts as to the State’s odds at winning an SYG hearing, let alone successfully prosecuting Zimmerman for murder.

That’s great but you’re also often advocating a blatant double standard to get there.

Vigilante followed for no reason, then “suspect” confronted him. I tend to go with the temporal aspect of the case when determining the level of responsibility, ie, vigilante acted first.

Maybe Trayvon was trying to kill Zim and deserved to get shot. None of us know. What we do know is that Zim instigated this by following and then leaving vehicle with gun.

Are you saying that someone who’s being wrongfully followed has no right to confront the vigilante/stalker/whatever?

Certainly they have a right, but it makes self-defense hard to argue when you knowingly head towards danger, doesn’t it?

How does this not apply to Zimmerman equally if not more so? He dialed 911 on the kid and wore a gun while following him, in what world does this not indicate that he was knowingly heading towards danger? You can’t create these kinds of barriers to plausible self defense but apply them only to the one party unable to testify. Zimmerman’s known actions do just a good a job of nullifying his claim.

You don’t get to create the very hazard you then “react” to. That’s a recipe for insanity.

re: #809 Political Atheist

I would expect a blood draw from anyone apart from cops who fires a gun at a person let alone hits or kills them.

I will never understand condoning the exemption of police officers from common sense procedures and legislation. I especially expect police officers to be tested after a use of force incident and in California I especially want them limited to purchasing from the list of Certified Not Unsafe handgun roster.

858 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:23:05am
859 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:23:10am

re: #852 Joanne

We don’t know because Trayvon Martin is dead and the only thing we have is testimony from a guy who doesn’t want to spend his days in prison.

We have testimony from other witnesses. We have physical evidence. Neither of which relies upon Trayvon Martin being alive to consider.

860 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:23:15am

re: #846 Targetpractice

Again, if you want to call me a racist, just do it. Don’t waste space trying to act as if you’re not.

I don’t know what’s in your heart. But I can observe that you have biases and prejudices. You need to defend those biases as being cogent and tenable by using the facts and not employ any BS about assuming everyone is a liar.

861 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:24:06am

re: #845 Targetpractice

My personal bias is one of assuming nobody’s a saint. To quote a wise man, “everybody lies.”

But not everyone dies by the hand of another.

862 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:25:16am

re: #856 Lidane

George Carlin had a massive influence on me when I was a kid. I used to buy comedy albums back in middle school and high school and he was easily my favorite. I learned a lot from listening to him at that age. It’s served me well.

Same here. George Carlin was far more than a comedian; he was the premier social commentator of my lifetime, IMHO.

863 Lidane  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:25:36am

re: #855 Decatur Deb

The God of Unbelievers Shines down on us today:

Santorum to jump into Texas abortion ban battle

politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com

Because what Texas needs is another self-righteous asshole from outside Texas telling us what to do.

WTF ever happened to the right wing meme of states deciding their own laws for themselves? Guess that doesn’t count when a bunch of Democrats and liberals are speaking out against an inhumane law.

864 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:25:44am

re: #662 kirkspencer

I don’t blame the police in this. They followed procedure. No, I blame the Asst DA who seems to have jumped when Zimmerman’s father, the retired judge, called him about his son being in jail despite ‘obviously’ being self-defense. Because of that act we have this mess with a shortage of evidence.

… It doesn’t matter, because it’s obvious that due process wasn’t followed for the favored son of a (locally) powerful man.

And in the end THAT is what everyone is pissed about.

And it was all facilitated by SYG legislation in the first place

865 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:26:08am

re: #860 gwangung

I don’t know what’s in your heart. But I can observe that you have biases and prejudices. You need to defend those biases as being cogent and tenable by using the facts and not employ any BS about assuming everyone is a liar.

Everybody has biases and prejudice.

866 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:26:34am

Markell: Satan Behind Progressive Movement

End Times broadcaster Jan Markell hosted Michael Coffman this weekend to discuss his new book Plundered: How Progressive Ideology is Destroying America, which argues that progressives seek to engineer America’s demise in order to create a world government.

Markell, of course, claimed Satan was behind it all.

“Satan has used in some cases evil people, in some cases he’s used well-meaning people, but nonetheless the formula of progressivism doesn’t work, it is totally destructive,” Markell said. “These folks would say they don’t need God because they are God, government is a God.”

I need the Christian God or Satan as much as I need any other fictional character, but I can’t recall ever saying the Government is God.

I only claim I’m God on special occasions.

867 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:26:36am

THIS IS SUCH A MASSIVE PILE OF DERP I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN. WINGNUTS TOTALLY BELIEVE THIS RIDICULOUS SHIT.

868 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:27:19am

re: #851 darthstar

My point exactly. And while I think the media coverage is awful, I do understand why they score this like an election debate. I’m hoping the jury is filled with at least a few critical thinkers who can let fact, and not emotion or sympathy for the defendant, influence their deliberation arguments.

Harken back to Don West’s Knock Knock joke. His disdain for the jury pool really reflects on them (as a jury member, I would have taken great offense to his joke, too)…because how many people know nothing of what happened…and do I really want those people as a jury of my peers? Personally, no.

I do not hold much hope of this kid’s murderer getting sentenced.

869 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:27:48am

re: #857 goddamnedfrank

Frank, is it your argument that I’ve been a Zimmerman supporter since Day One and any comments to the contrary were me trying to cover it up?

870 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:27:53am

re: #867 Vicious Babushka

THIS IS SUCH A MASSIVE PILE OF DERP I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN.

[Embedded content]

Here is a good start.

871 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:27:58am

re: #862 Dr Lizardo

Same here. George Carlin was far more than a comedian; he was the premier social commentator of my lifetime, IMHO.

I liked Carlin a lot.
My favorite is his “Stuff” routine…explains one of the reasons we’re building a new house out back…we gots too much stuffs…

872 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:28:09am

re: #853 kirkspencer

For legal purposes, yes. See Blood Alcohol Content for DWI conviction.

How much the substance actually interferes with individual performance depends on a number of factors.

So for legal purposes, they are assuming that what works for alcohol is close enough for marijuana? I was wondering how this would play out with legalization becoming widespread. Will drivers have to submit to blood tests instead of being able to opt for the breath or urine tests?

Consider the questions rhetorical if you like.

873 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:28:28am

re: #854 darthstar

Wingnuts are just hoping for acquittal because they see this as an Us-vs-Them trial.

Until which time Zimmerman might be found guilty, and then he’s all Hispanic. He wins, they win. He loses, they win.

874 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:29:35am

re: #873 Joanne

Until which time Zimmerman might be found guilty, and then he’s all Hispanic. He wins, they win. He loses, they win.

I’d submit that the reverse holds true for those who wish to see Zimmerman ruled guilty, who are ready to argue that the State/Sanford PD totally fucked up and let him get away with murder upon acquittal.

875 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:30:01am

re: #805 Targetpractice

This was covered by Carter’s testimony last week, particularly imperfect self-defense. That the aggressor can shift in such cases when disproportionate force is used by one party in response to aggression by the other.

You’re missing the point. Zimmerman’s excuse that he got out of his truck to find an address/street sign is total bullshit given the location of his truck and where me killed Martin. He got out of his truck to follow Martin. He knew he had a gun, so what would he have to worry about? He never addressed himself as neighborhood watch. Showed no ID. Nothing. What he didn’t count on was for Martin to defend himself.

876 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:30:29am

Huelskamp: Supreme Court Legalized Polygamy

Basic comprehension skills seem to be beyond these people.

877 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:31:27am

re: #876 Kragar

Huelskamp: Supreme Court Legalized Polygamy

Basic comprehension skills seem to be beyond these people.

What does he have against polygamy? It’s sanctioned in the Bible.

878 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:31:44am

re: #871 Backwoods_Sleuth

I liked Carlin a lot.
My favorite is his “Stuff” routine…explains one of the reasons we’re building a new house out back…we gots too much stuffs…

Yep, that was one of my faves as well.

879 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:32:11am

re: #875 efuseakay

You’re missing the point. Zimmerman’s excuse that he got out of his truck to find an address/street sign is total bullshit given the location of his truck and where me killed Martin. He got out of his truck to follow Martin. He knew he had a gun, so what would he have to worry about? He never addressed himself as neighborhood watch. Showed no ID. Nothing. What he didn’t count on was for Martin to defend himself.

I’d speculate what he didn’t count on was Martin confronting him.

880 Ian G.  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:32:50am

re: #724 Lidane

The First Amendment, how the fuck does it work?

The 14th amendment too. North Carolina lost that battle 150 years ago.

881 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:33:08am

re: #855 Decatur Deb

The God of Unbelievers Shines down on us today:

Santorum to jump into Texas abortion ban battle

politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com

Two things:

1.) I hope his news conference is outdoors and he’s wearing his trademark sweater vest, under his jacket.

2.) Re:

The press release regarding Santorum’s event comes from Patriot Voices, his grassroots conservative non-profit organization

When a national political figure sets up a non-profit to promote his views, that is the exact opposite of ‘grassroots’.

882 Ian G.  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:34:13am

re: #709 Lidane

Of course he knew. Rand Paul is a racist Neo-Confederate theocrat. He’s going to hire accordingly:

[Embedded content]

That’s some fine concern-trolling by Jennifer Rubin. How much do you want to bet the guy also harbors some anti-semitic feelings too?

883 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:35:23am

re: #880 Ian G.

The 14th amendment too. North Carolina lost that battle 150 years ago.

Fuck this shit. I’m activating Mecha-Sherman and telling him to take a trip to the beach.

884 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:35:47am

re: #836 Targetpractice

Okay, so take out the unreliable testimony. What evidence is there that Zimmerman did anything to Martin that would equal a punch in the face?

He shot him, which isn’t really proportional in the slightest.

re: #845 Targetpractice

My personal bias is one of assuming nobody’s a saint. To quote a wise man, “everybody lies.”

Except dead people, which is awfully convenient for Zimmerman.

re: #869 Targetpractice

Frank, is it your argument that I’ve been a Zimmerman supporter since Day One and any comments to the contrary were me trying to cover it up?

My only argument is that the LGF database is archived and searchable. Again, if as you asserted, knowingly heading to danger obviates any claim to self defense Trayvon hypothetically could have made, then how does this not apply equally to Zimmerman?

885 Gus  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:36:03am
886 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:36:28am

re: #859 Targetpractice

We have testimony from other witnesses. We have physical evidence. Neither of which relies upon Trayvon Martin being alive to consider.

Testimony from the only other party involved is not available.

887 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:36:40am
888 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:36:48am

re: #835 Vicious Babushka

Then you would have 2!

We did have two. Then my husband broke one.

…which was honestly kind of impressive because it was flexible plastic and he apparently shattered it all over the floor.

I need to get more on the next trip to Ikea, but I have too much to do to add that to the to do list today.

889 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:37:35am

re: #879 Targetpractice

I’d speculate what he didn’t count on was Martin confronting him.

Yet he was carrying, while not “on duty”. Zimmerman was looking for trouble.

890 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:37:40am

re: #859 Targetpractice

We have testimony from other witnesses. We have physical evidence. Neither of which relies upon Trayvon Martin being alive to consider.

You have zero witnesses to what happened. You have witnesses who saw little, some heard some things. You have one witness who said George was on the bottom based on sound reverberation.

You have a poorly spoken black girl who lied about her name and age because she didn’t want to deal with the whole thing. You had her eviscerated and mercilessly teased because of her blackness, repeatedly called a liar by the defense counselors - who, btw, were perfectly ok with the white guy lying for the same reason (I believe it was O’Mara who said, and I quote “That’s understandable” to the very next witness because he didn’t want to come forward.)

The forensic evidence is limited.

But what will always remain true is that Zimmerman killed an unarmed teenager after following him for no reason at all - other than he was black and looked like he didn’t belong. Not only did Zimmerman not just follow Martin, but he instructed the police to call him for a rendezvous point because he wasn’t going to let Martin out of his sight because Zimmerman knew in his heart that this kid was going to break into a house. The whole address/street name was complete and utter bullshit.

He supposedly was in his SUV when Martin approached it, but then felt secure enough to leave the vehicle with a gun and follow Martin.

Come on man. None of that makes any sense. It is on tape (both audio and video).

891 dragonath  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:39:49am

Meanwhile, in Egypt

Egypt’s Leaders Select Premier and Plan for Quick Elections

CAIRO — Egypt’s military-led interim government laid out an accelerated six-month timetable on Tuesday for a return to civilian democracy, and chose a liberal economist as temporary prime minister, part of an intensified effort to assure Egyptians and the world about its intentions in the aftermath of the mass killing of more than 50 Islamist protesters.

The Brotherhood also denounced the appointment of a new prime minister, Hazem el-Beblawy, a prominent economic consultant who had supported the 2011 revolution that ousted the old authoritarian government of Hosni Mubarak.

892 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:40:00am

re: #884 goddamnedfrank

He shot him, which isn’t really proportional in the slightest.

Was he limited to only punching back?

Except dead people, which is awfully convenient for Zimmerman.

That is why expect the prosecution to speak in his place, using facts and evidence.

My only argument is that the LGF database is archived and searchable. Again, if as you asserted, knowingly heading to danger obviates any claim to self defense hypothetical could have made, then how does this not apply equally to Zimmerman?

That was a moral judgment, made at a time when I was unfamiliar with Florida state law. My opinion has since evolved as I’ve learned more. Has yours?

893 Ian G.  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:40:29am

re: #867 Vicious Babushka

THIS IS SUCH A MASSIVE PILE OF DERP I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN. WINGNUTS TOTALLY BELIEVE THIS RIDICULOUS SHIT.

[Embedded content]

If the cartoon was accurate, the back of the boat would be filled with Tea Party types. Elderly GOP voters are a much bigger sinkhole of goverment spending than Unions or college students.

Also, are, say, United Auto Workers members beneficiaries of government spending at all?

894 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:40:30am

re: #889 efuseakay

Yet he was carrying, while not “on duty”. Zimmerman was looking for trouble.

Or carrying for self-defense. That’s why most people who get concealed weapons licenses tell me they do.

895 dragonath  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:42:44am

re: #891 dragonath

More on that…

Economist Hazem el-Beblawi, a compromise candidate supported by a key Islamist party, was named Egypt’s prime minister Tuesday.

Interim President Adli Mansour also appointed former U.N. nuclear agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei as deputy to the president, responsible for foreign affairs, spokesman Ahmed el-Musalamani said.

Middle East websites said Egypt’s hard-line Islamist Al-Nour Party, which has objected to several candidates put forward by the military-backed interim government, had thrown its support behind el-Beblawi’s appointment. The party said it was still studying ElBaradei’s appointment.

Last week, ElBaradei was a top candidate for prime minister, but Al-Nour rejected him, the websites reported. Al-Nour was the lone ultraconservative party to back the military’s removal of Mohammed Morsi from the presidency last week.

896 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:42:50am

No, Republicans, ‘Missing’ White Voters Won’t Save You

The most influential empirical analysis supporting this view was recently published by Sean Trende in a four part series on RealClearPolitics. Trende’s analysis is built around the idea of “missing white voters.”

What he means by this is that, given the estimated number of white voters in 2008 (derived from exit polls) and the natural increase in white eligible voters between 2008 and 2012 there should have been far more white voters than there actually were (again, estimated from the exit polls). He labels the difference between his projected and actual numbers of white voters as “missing” white voters. He goes on to say that “f these white voters had decided to vote, the racial breakdown of the electorate would have been 73.6 percent white, 12.5 percent black, 9.5 percent Hispanic and 2.4 percent Asian — almost identical to the 2008 numbers.” Get it? The only real demographic change of importance between 2008 and 2012 was all those white voters who didn’t show up.

What’s wrong with this analysis? Plenty. Start with Trende’s projected natural increase in white voters—around 1.5 million voters, based on an assumed 55 percent turnout rate of additional white eligible voters. This implies that Trende was using an estimate of around 2.7 million additional eligible whites between 2008 and 2012. That’s wrong: Census data show an increase of only 1.5 million white eligibles. At Trende’s assumed 55 percent turnout rate, that translates into only 825,000 additional white voters from “natural increase.”

That’s one problem. But the most serious problem comes from how he handles his “missing” white voters relative to minority “missing” voters. That’s because, by the very same logic he uses to designate large numbers of white voters as missing, there are also large numbers of minority voters who are missing. This is both because minority voters experienced natural increase (much more so than whites actually) and because turnout was low in 2012 compared to 2008. This trend affected all voters, minorities as well as whites.

897 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:43:14am

re: #890 Joanne

This sounds like a moral argument, not a legal one.

898 Dr. Matt  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:44:07am

re: #894 Targetpractice

Or carrying for self-defense. That’s why most people who get concealed weapons licenses tell me they do.

If you chase after someone (while armed) who is running away, it’s not self-defense. True story. Also, neighborhood watchman are NOT suppose to armed. Another true story. Your obtuse and tiresome defense of Killerman is embarrassing at this point.

899 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:44:40am

Expert witness says “We have to take Zimmerman’s word because he’s the only one who was there.”

900 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:45:12am

re: #872 wrenchwench

So for legal purposes, they are assuming that what works for alcohol is close enough for marijuana? I was wondering how this would play out with legalization becoming widespread. Will drivers have to submit to blood tests instead of being able to opt for the breath or urine tests?

Consider the questions rhetorical if you like.

If you want I’ll go digging for the studies, but here’s the nutshell. There was a landmark study a couple of decades ago that showed that there was no measurable physical impairment at less than 5 ng/mL (nanograms/milliliter) of THC/blood. At 5ng/mL (aka 5ng) the impairment was measurable in a statistically significant sample — memory (take your grains of salt) says it is comparable to a 0.05 BAC. That in turn, of course, means that a lot of people will eventually wind up arguing that either the THC thresholds for legal impairment need increased or the BAC decreased, but that’s a digression.

What makes this more complex is that the primary psychoactive compound is pretty much undetectable by anything other than an actual blood test. Urinalysis, breath, and saliva tests all test secondaries. Ironically, the problems with saliva make it the best alternative for blood in this case. But it’s still getting into the whole invasive procedure question that exists already for involuntary blood tests. Not least, because the saliva test can coincidentally be used for a DNA test.

Personal opinion: I think the saliva test will wind up being allowed by the courts, and that we’ll wind up with something along the lines of .8 ng being the magic line (approx one really strong or two moderate cigarettes within the preceding two hours, assuming a 150 pound person.)

901 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:45:12am

Fucking hell.

“Hey Buddy, I saw the server reboot notice and rebooted them for you.”
“The servers I was running reports on and said don’t touch till I’m done with them?”
“Yeah. Is that a problem?”

ASSHOLE!

902 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:45:16am

re: #898 Dr. Matt

If you chase after someone while armed who is running away, it’s not self-defense. True story. Also, neighborhood watchman are NOT suppose to armed. Another true story. Your obtuse and tiresome defense of Killerman is embarrassing at this point.

On the other hand, the contortions he’s putting himself through to support his position might be amusing to some people.

903 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:45:25am

re: #875 efuseakay

You’re missing the point. Zimmerman’s excuse that he got out of his truck to find an address/street sign is total bullshit given the location of his truck and where me killed Martin. He got out of his truck to follow Martin. He knew he had a gun, so what would he have to worry about? He never addressed himself as neighborhood watch. Showed no ID. Nothing. What he didn’t count on was for Martin to defend himself.

I’m still trying to figure out his logic of doing all of that, in the dark, in the rain, to supposedly find an address. And he takes his gun but has to go back to his truck later to get his flashlight.
Maybe I’m weird, but if it’s dark and raining and I’m looking for an address, I would have brought my flashlight with me in the first place…if only to see where I’m walking (in the dark, in the rain…)

904 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:45:38am

re: #898 Dr. Matt

If you chase after someone (while armed) who is running away, it’s not self-defense. True story. Also, neighborhood watchman are NOT suppose to armed. Another true story. Your obtuse and tiresome defense of Killerman is embarrassing at this point.

What’s it called when, instead of running, you get up in the face of the guy chasing you and ask him questions?

905 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:45:58am

re: #902 gwangung

On the other hand, the contortions he’s putting himself through to support his position might be amusing to some people.

Glad I’m amusing to somebody.

906 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:46:13am

re: #901 Kragar

Fucking hell.

“Hey Buddy, I saw the server reboot notice and rebooted them for you.”
“The servers I was running reports on and said don’t touch till I’m done with them?”
“Yeah. Is that a problem?”

ASSHOLE!

Don’t you just love coworkers?

907 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:46:40am

re: #904 Targetpractice

What’s it called when, instead of running, you get up in the face of the guy chasing you and ask him questions?

Standing your ground.

/////

908 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:47:00am

re: #893 Ian G.

If the cartoon was accurate, the back of the boat would be filled with Tea Party types. Elderly GOP voters are a much bigger sinkhole of goverment spending than Unions or college students.

Also, are, say, United Auto Workers members beneficiaries of government spending at all?

It’s Pile of Derpshit to suggest that “Unions” are “takers” not “makers” first of all, a union member HAS A JOB.

Also college students have a huge pile of student loans to pay off, they are attending college in order to have professional careers, so how are they “taking” from anyone?

Maybe they should have loaded up the boat with a bunch of Walmart workers, whose sub-mimimum wages are also “taking” away from the profits that the “Job Creators” think they deserve.

Srsly, wingnuts honestly believe that only conservatives have “real jobs” and liberals just hang around on welfare, or work for the government (which is also welfare)

When I pointed out to several wingnuts that “government workers” includes the military (which they worship) as well as police, fire and EMS, they clutched their pearls and SPAM BLOCK TEH LIBRUL!!11!!

909 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:47:07am

re: #906 klys

Don’t you just love coworkers?

All he had to do was nothing and he fucked it up.

910 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:47:14am

re: #903 Backwoods_Sleuth

I’m still trying to figure out his logic of doing all of that, in the dark, in the rain, to supposedly find an address. And he takes his gun but has to go back to his truck later to get his flashlight.
Maybe I’m weird, but if it’s dark and raining and I’m looking for an address, I would have brought my flashlight with me in the first place…if only to see where I’m walking (in the dark, in the rain…)

Kid runs off, you get out of your truck in a hurry to keep track but you lose him. You get asked for an address and you say you don’t know. It’s too dark outside to see numbers easily and no street signs. Go back for flashlight or venture farther into the darkness in hopes you trip over him?

911 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:47:21am

re: #904 Targetpractice

What’s it called when, instead of running, you get up in the face of the guy chasing you and ask him questions?

What’s it called when you shoot a guy asking you questions?

912 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:47:58am

re: #911 twisty

What’s it called when you shoot a guy asking you questions?

Again, there was something between the questions and the gunshot.

913 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:49:16am

re: #904 Targetpractice

What’s it called when, instead of running, you get up in the face of the guy chasing you and ask him questions?

Martin did run. Zimmerman even said so.

914 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:49:27am

re: #909 Kragar

All he had to do was nothing and he fucked it up.

Nothing is really hard to do.

///

915 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:49:57am

re: #913 efuseakay

Martin did run. Zimmerman even said so.

He did. But he didn’t say he caught him.

916 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:50:05am

re: #878 geoffm33

Yep, that was one of my faves as well.

Even the part of the routine about going on vacation and having to buy another suitcase to “bring home MORE STUFF!”
I actually pack a suitcase inside a suitcase when I travel, especially to GB where I haunt charity shops for teacups and stuff, and grocery stores for things like Aero bars and After Eight mints that I can’t find here at home, so I don’t have to buy another suitcase.

917 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:50:08am

re: #913 efuseakay

Martin did run. Zimmerman even said so.

Yep. He ran, and Zimmerman went into the dark to try and find him. Not to keep track of him, to try and find him.

918 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:50:15am

re: #912 Targetpractice

Again, there was something between the questions and the gunshot.

I’m aware. I’m questioning what looks to be an implication by you that TM — possibly — confronting the man chasing him means he invited the shooting.

919 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:50:24am

re: #900 kirkspencer

If you want I’ll go digging for the studies, but here’s the nutshell. There was a landmark study a couple of decades ago that showed that there was no measurable physical impairment at less than 5 ng/mL (nanograms/milliliter) of THC/blood. At 5ng/mL (aka 5ng) the impairment was measurable in a statistically significant sample — memory (take your grains of salt) says it is comparable to a 0.05 BAC. That in turn, of course, means that a lot of people will eventually wind up arguing that either the THC thresholds for legal impairment need increased or the BAC decreased, but that’s a digression.

What makes this more complex is that the primary psychoactive compound is pretty much undetectable by anything other than an actual blood test. Urinalysis, breath, and saliva tests all test secondaries. Ironically, the problems with saliva make it the best alternative for blood in this case. But it’s still getting into the whole invasive procedure question that exists already for involuntary blood tests. Not least, because the saliva test can coincidentally be used for a DNA test.

Personal opinion: I think the saliva test will wind up being allowed by the courts, and that we’ll wind up with something along the lines of .8 ng being the magic line (approx one really strong or two moderate cigarettes within the preceding two hours, assuming a 150 pound person.)

Thanks for your input, and especially for your opinion. No need to dig up studies.

920 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:51:38am

re: #912 Targetpractice

Again, there was something between the questions and the gunshot.

Yes. Across the street behind an apartment complex quite a ways away from Zimmerman’s truck. Far enough away to discredit his “looking for an address” excuse.

921 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:51:49am

re: #918 twisty

I’m aware. I’m questioning what looks to be an implication by you that TM — possibly — confronting the man chasing him means he invited the shooting.

No, I’m saying that I’m pretty consistent in my opinion that anyone who goes looking for danger can’t claim self-defense.

922 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:52:39am

re: #920 efuseakay

Yes. Across the street behind an apartment complex quite a ways away from Zimmerman’s truck. Far enough away to discredit his “looking for an address” excuse.

Agreed, it doesn’t make obvious sense. Not the same as proof that he succeeded in chasing Martin down.

923 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:53:40am

re: #892 Targetpractice

Was he limited to only punching back?

He could have run. Unlike Zimmerman Trayvon didn’t have a gun. Getting punched a few times isn’t cause to kill someone, especially if you’re stalking them while armed.

That is why expect the prosecution to speak in his place, using facts and evidence.

The fact is that Zimmerman created the very hazard he claims to have reacted to, a ridiculous defense. If he didn’t think he was heading into danger then why call 911, why get out of the car while wearing a gun, why leave the road and follow his “suspect” behind the condos?

That was a moral judgment, made at a time when I was unfamiliar with Florida state law. My opinion has since evolved as I’ve learned more. Has yours?

No, that was most clearly not a moral judgement but a legal / plausibility assessment of self defense criteria. Why did you apply it only to Martin though and not Zimmerman? If you’ve changed your mind then does that mean Martin could have mounted a plausible case for self defense even though he knew by going back he was heading into danger? Clearly since Martin is dead Zimmerman posed a tangible threat.

924 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:53:46am

re: #921 Targetpractice

No, I’m saying that I’m pretty consistent in my opinion that anyone who goes looking for danger can’t claim self-defense.

So, that would be Zimmerman, amirite?

925 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:53:56am

re: #915 Targetpractice

He did. But he didn’t say he caught him.

Doesn’t matter. Zimmerman chased him.

926 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:54:31am

re: #921 Targetpractice

No, I’m saying that I’m pretty consistent in my opinion that anyone who goes looking for danger can’t claim self-defense.

If you were consistent, you would say GZ cannot claim self-defense.

927 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:55:11am

re: #894 Targetpractice

Or carrying for self-defense. That’s why most people who get concealed weapons licenses tell me they do.

I know too many people who are quite proud of their CC permits (which are just too easy to get) and I wouldn’t trust them for accurate defense of any kind further than I can spit.

928 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:55:39am

re: #922 Targetpractice

Agreed, it doesn’t make obvious sense. Not the same as proof that he succeeded in chasing Martin down.

That proof is in the form of a dead kid he claims he shot at point blank range.

929 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:55:59am

re: #923 goddamnedfrank

He could have run. Unlike Zimmerman Trayvon didn’t have a gun. Getting punched a few times isn’t cause to kill someone, especially if you’re stalking them while armed.

I’m not clear, has it been proven by the State that Zimmerman didn’t fall with the first punch?

The fact is that Zimmerman created the very hazard he claims to have reacted to, a ridiculous defense. If he didn’t think he was heading into danger then why call 911, why get out of the car while wearing a gun, why leave the road and follow his “suspect” behind the condos?

And Martin reciprocated by confronting Zimmerman.

No, that was most clearly not a moral judgement but a legal / plausibility assessment of self defense criteria. Why did you apply it only to Martin though and not Zimmerman? If you’ve changed your mind then does that mean Martin could have mounted a plausible case for self defense even though he knew by going back he was heading into danger? Clearly since Martin is dead Zimmerman posed a tangible threat.

I believe I’ve already said both parties could claim to be have been acting in self-defense.

930 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:56:22am

re: #926 twisty

If you were consistent, you would say GZ cannot claim self-defense.

Then neither can Trayvon Martin.

931 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:57:04am

re: #927 Backwoods_Sleuth

I know too many people who are quite proud of their CC permits (which are just too easy to get) and I wouldn’t trust them for accurate defense of any kind further than I can spit.

On that we can agree.

932 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:57:11am

So..
Zimmerman started it.
Trayvon defended himself.
Zimmerman gets to claim self defense against self defense.
Shoots kid.
Zimmerman wins.
What a country!

933 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:57:29am

re: #928 efuseakay

That proof is in the form of a dead kid he claims he shot at point blank range.

So how did he stop Martin?

934 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:57:30am

re: #930 Targetpractice

Then neither can Trayvon Martin.

Well, that’s pretty straightforward, as he didn’t shoot anyone and isn’t on trial.

He’s just dead.

935 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:57:44am

Aggressors can not claim self defense. It’s illogical.

936 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:58:05am

re: #930 Targetpractice

Then neither can Trayvon Martin.

I’m not aware that Trayvon is claiming anything.

937 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:58:06am

re: #934 klys

Well, that’s pretty straightforward, as he didn’t shoot anyone and isn’t on trial.

He’s just dead.

And suppose he was on trial for beating George Zimmerman to death. Based on the evidence so far, could he claim self-defense and be acquitted?

938 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:58:22am

re: #935 Varek Raith

Aggressors can not claim self defense. It’s illogical.

But who the aggressor is can change.

939 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:58:47am

re: #926 twisty

If you were consistent, you would say GZ cannot claim self-defense.

This, exactly. You can’t have it both ways. You don’t call 911 on people and follow them down back alleys at night while armed expecting tea and crumpets.

940 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:58:51am

re: #937 Targetpractice

And suppose he was on trial for beating George Zimmerman to death. Based on the evidence so far, could he claim self-defense and be acquitted?

In that case, nope.
He went beyond self defense.

941 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:59:31am

re: #935 Varek Raith

Aggressors can not claim self defense. It’s illogical.

The defender always starts the fight. If he just gave in to the aggressors actions, there wouldn’t have been a fight. Don’t you realize that?
///

942 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:59:53am

re: #940 Varek Raith

In that case, nope.
He went beyond self defense.

Even before that, he’d have to explain to a jury why, if he had reason to believe his life in danger, he didn’t keep running. Make the bastard bring him to the ground.

943 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 10:59:57am

Anywho, Target is not racist. I think he’s wrong, but good grief he’s not racist.

944 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:00:12am

re: #933 Targetpractice

So how did he stop Martin?

He was following Martin with the intention of confronting him. Obviously he caught up.

945 Kragar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:00:22am

re: #940 Varek Raith

In that case, nope.
He went beyond self defense.

Self Defense: Driving away when the cops told you to stop following the kid

946 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:00:52am

This is why SYG type crap are clusterfucks in the law.

947 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:00:57am

re: #944 efuseakay

He was following Martin with the intention of confronting him. Obviously he caught up.

Caught up? And then what? You think he could have outrun Martin, when Martin had a head start?

948 BeenHereAwhile  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:00:58am

re: #465 piratedan

re: #465 piratedan

re: #461 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“Are they going to give him travel documents, though?”

maybe some Taco Bueno coupons will be included….. //

If it’s Venezuela, Snowden would have better luck with Arepa Buenos…..///

949 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:01:00am

re: #943 Varek Raith

Anywho, Target is not racist. I think he’s wrong, but good grief he’s not racist.

Why ascribe motive when you can marvel and the mental gymnastics?

950 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:01:09am

re: #946 Varek Raith

This is why SYG type crap are clusterfucks in the law.

Agreed.

951 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:01:37am

re: #949 goddamnedfrank

Why ascribe motive when you can marvel and the mental gymnastics?

Did I get a low vote by the Russian judge?

952 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:01:56am

re: #949 goddamnedfrank

Why ascribe motive when you can marvel and the mental gymnastics?

Because shut up that’s why.
;)
/sick of Zimmerman trial.

953 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:02:38am

re: #952 Varek Raith

Because shut up that’s why.
;)
/sick of Zimmerman trial.

First media trial I’ve followed in ages. God, how I’m regretting it.

954 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:02:54am

re: #910 Targetpractice

Kid runs off, you get out of your truck in a hurry to keep track but you lose him. You get asked for an address and you say you don’t know. It’s too dark outside to see numbers easily and no street signs. Go back for flashlight or venture farther into the darkness in hopes you trip over him?

It’s dark, it’s raining…I’m not getting out of the truck without my flashlight to see where I’m going. At the very least, to keep the light on whoever I’m “in a hurry to keep track of” (and I wouldn’t be hurrying in the dark, in the rain WITHOUT a flashlight to see where I’m going!)

955 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:03:27am

re: #953 Targetpractice

First media trial I’ve followed in ages. God, how I’m regretting it.

I remember OJ and I was a freaking kid. :/

956 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:03:54am

re: #937 Targetpractice

And suppose he was on trial for beating George Zimmerman to death. Based on the evidence so far, could he claim self-defense and be acquitted?

I really don’t even know where to start on this.

Except that I’m going to guess the case would have been handled much differently by the cops and the DA if that were the case.

957 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:04:01am

re: #955 Varek Raith

I remember OJ and I was a freaking kid. :/

Same here. Remember turning on TV and not finding many stations that weren’t running the trial live or offering commentary.

958 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:05:09am

re: #956 klys

I really don’t even know where to start on this.

Except that I’m going to guess the case would have been handled much differently by the cops and the DA if that were the case.

Very likely.

959 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:05:19am

re: #938 Targetpractice

But who the aggressor is can change.

It never did. It was always Zimmerman.

960 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:05:34am

Here’s where I stand.
I believe Zimmerman started this whole thing and was not acting is self defense.
Does the law? Beats me, I ain’t no lawyer. I could be right or wrong. Or both.

961 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:06:03am

re: #930 Targetpractice

Then neither can Trayvon Martin.

Most observers would disagree.

962 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:06:41am

re: #961 gwangung

Most observers would disagree.

I was under the impression only two people were there that night.

963 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:06:50am

re: #947 Targetpractice

Caught up? And then what? You think he could have outrun Martin, when Martin had a head start?

He’s a big bad neighborhood watch captain. Obviously he’s trained for these situations!

But again, you’re missing the point. Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his truck to begin with.

964 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:07:09am

re: #960 Varek Raith

Here’s where I stand.
I believe Zimmerman started this whole thing and was not acting is self defense.
Does the law? Beats me, I ain’t no lawyer. I could be right or wrong. Or both.

Welcome to the court of public opinion. How do you plead?

965 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:07:29am

re: #964 Targetpractice

Welcome to the court of public opinion. How do you plead?

Insane.

966 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:07:50am

re: #965 Varek Raith

Insane.

All I want is some actual news. Sigh…

967 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:07:58am

re: #937 Targetpractice

And suppose he was on trial for beating George Zimmerman to death. Based on the evidence so far, could he claim self-defense and be acquitted?

Are you kidding? This is Florida. He’d be on death row by now after an overworked & underpaid PD told him to plea out.

968 gwangung  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:08:01am

re: #962 Targetpractice

I was under the impression only two people were there that night.

Weeeakkk.

A 2.0 from the east German judge.

969 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:08:31am

re: #963 efuseakay

He’s a big bad neighborhood watch captain. Obviously he’s trained for these situations!

But again, you’re missing the point. Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his truck to begin with.

Being trained doesn’t make him less of a puff. He was obese, he was in that truck, and Martin was running to begin with. It stretches credibility in my mind that he got out of that truck like a bullet and got in front of Martin before he could have cleared 100 yards to his apartment.

970 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:09:12am

re: #967 William Barnett-Lewis

Are you kidding? This is Florida. He’d be on death row by now after an overworked & underpaid PD told him to plea out.

Probably. Sucks when you can’t work public opinion in your favor.

971 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:09:45am

re: #947 Targetpractice

Caught up? And then what? You think he could have outrun Martin, when Martin had a head start?

I think there’s such a thing as GZ cutting between buildings, TM being new to the area and getting disoriented in the dark, or TM reconsidering leading this guy straight to the house where his family was staying. And yes, there’s also such a thing as TM doubling back or waiting for GZ to catch up in order to confront him. There was a chase and a confrontation. A voice cried for help. I don’t like implications that someone lobbing you one in the nose after you’ve been chasing them is justification for shooting them.

972 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:11:04am

re: #971 twisty

I think there’s such a thing as GZ cutting between buildings, TM being new to the area and getting disoriented in the dark, or TM reconsidering leading this guy straight to the house where his family was staying. And yes, there’s also such a thing as TM doubling back or waiting for GZ to catch up in order to confront him. There was a chase and a confrontation. A voice cried for help. I don’t like implications that someone lobbing you one in the nose after you’ve been chasing them is justification for shooting them.

Lobbing one and then straddling them would, if me, give me reason to worry for my life. And I don’t even carry a gun.

973 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:12:19am

re: #969 Targetpractice

Being trained doesn’t make him less of a puff. He was obese, he was in that truck, and Martin was running to begin with. It stretches credibility in my mind that he got out of that truck like a bullet and got in front of Martin before he could have cleared 100 yards to his apartment.

Yet Zimmerman still got out of his truck and the crime scene is across the street, behind an apartment complex a good distance from the vehicle. Zimmerman was stalking Martin, plain and simple. It doesn’t matter if Martin may have doubled back or not. Last thing I’d want if I were a kid is for some dude that’s following me to know where I live/I’m staying.

974 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:13:27am

re: #972 Targetpractice

Lobbing one and then straddling them would, if me, give me reason to worry for my life. And I don’t even carry a gun.

If it helps I don’t like implications that being punched and then having a scuffle on the ground justifies shooting the other party either.

975 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:14:10am

Two words why application of Florida’s SYG is a bunch of crap:
“Marissa Alexander”

976 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:15:18am

re: #973 efuseakay

Yet Zimmerman still got out of his truck and the crime scene is across the street, behind an apartment complex a good distance from the vehicle. Zimmerman was stalking Martin, plain and simple. It doesn’t matter if Martin may have doubled back or not. Last thing I’d want if I were a kid is for some dude that’s following me to know where I live/I’m staying.

But it does matter if your argument is that Martin was afraid for his life. If he’s so fearful that he doesn’t want to lead Zimmerman to his apartment, why stop running? Hell, why not scream your lungs out and start banging on doors?

977 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:16:18am

re: #970 Targetpractice

Probably. Sucks when you can’t work public opinion family connections in your favor.

Fixed that for you.

978 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:16:27am

re: #974 twisty

If it helps I don’t like implications that being punched and then having a scuffle on the ground justifies shooting the other party either.

I don’t see much evidence of a scuffle. From what I see, one guy was getting the shit beaten out of him by the other, who never lost control of the situation.

979 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:19:00am

re: #978 Targetpractice

I don’t see much evidence of a scuffle. From what I see, one guy was getting the shit beaten out of him by the other, who never lost control of the situation.

Man, if what happened to Zimmerman was “having the shit beat out of him”, what do you call actual MMA bouts?

I am basing this on the injuries reported to both Zimmerman and Martin (minor cuts to the scalp on Zimmerman, no bruising to the back of Zimmerman’s head, no bruising to Martin’s hands, etc.).

980 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:19:10am

re: #978 Targetpractice

I don’t see much evidence of a scuffle. From what I see, one guy was getting the shit beaten out of him by the other, who never lost control of the situation.

GZ’s very limited injuries and the unblemished state of TM’s punchin’ hand do not lead me to the conclusion that anyone was getting the shit beat out of them.

981 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:20:13am

re: #979 klys

Man, if what happened to Zimmerman was “having the shit beat out of him”, what do you call actual MMA bouts?

I am basing this on the injuries reported to both Zimmerman and Martin (minor cuts to the scalp on Zimmerman, no bruising to the back of Zimmerman’s head, no bruising to Martin’s hands, etc.).

The bruising to Martin’s hands was noted in the testimony given by the Defense’s medical expert earlier, that bruising requires blood and a shot into the heart pretty rapidly removes blood from the body.

982 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:24:39am

The magic phrase for the charge at hand is “depraved indifference”. In this case the specific question is:

Was it reasonable for Zimmerman to have left his truck in pursuit of Martin? Recall that is, according to his testimony of the evening, the reason he did so. He left his vehicle, weapon in his possession (no evidence in hand or in holster), to pursue someone he believed needed apprehended. Yet he did so without any other tools of apprehension. Just a gun.

How did he intend to apprehend Martin if he had found him? Threaten to “stop or I’ll shoot?”

Zimmerman willfully placed himself in a position where shooting was a likely event, without the threat of life or limb. This is, by legal principle, depraved indifference. Acting in such fashion where the shooting is likely, though without (proving) an intent to shoot before going in.

Zimmerman claims he was acting as a concerned resident and citizen, and as a neighborhood watch captain. For the latter, he violated critical existing instructions (follow instructions of dispatch, do not go armed), and for the latter he was outside his property and was acting on suspicion, not actual threat.

The issue of who punched whom first and who was on top is obfuscation. It’s smoke; it’s the intermediate consequence of the act of depraved indifference.

What were the reasonable expectations of a person in Zimmerman’s situation when seeing a person he assumed was a criminal, about whom he’d called the police, when he carried his weapon into a dark area in pursuit of that individual?

983 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:25:16am

re: #981 Targetpractice

The bruising to Martin’s hands was noted in the testimony given by the Defense’s medical expert earlier, that bruising requires blood and a shot into the heart pretty rapidly removes blood from the body.

But it’s kind of hard to have your head repeatedly slammed into the concrete (per his account) and not have any bruising, yet Zimmerman has none and his heart was still beating.

984 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:25:38am

re: #981 Targetpractice

The bruising to Martin’s hands was noted in the testimony given by the Defense’s medical expert earlier, that bruising requires blood and a shot into the heart pretty rapidly removes blood from the body.

There was no bruising to Martins hands…only one very small 1/4 x 1/8 abrasion on the left hand.

985 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:26:25am

re: #984 blueraven

There was no bruising to Martins hands…only one very small 1/4 x 1/8 abrasion on the left hand.

Which was rather the point, it would be hard for bruises to form if his body was deprived of blood in the short time after they were made. Corpses don’t develop bruises.

986 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:27:25am

re: #983 klys

But it’s kind of hard to have your head repeatedly slammed into the concrete (per his account) and not have any bruising, yet Zimmerman has none and his heart was still beating.

None? The PA’s report noted bruising.

987 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:28:14am

re: #985 Targetpractice

Which was rather the point, it would be hard for bruises to form if his body was deprived of blood in the short time after they were made. Corpses don’t develop bruises.

It could have also happened well before the incident in question. That was also testified to. At any rate it was very minor for that ass whoopin.

988 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:28:56am

re: #987 blueraven

It could have also happened well before the incident on question. That was also testified to. At any rate it was very minor for that ass whoopin.

Could be, yes. The difference between “could be” and “was”? Reasonable doubt.

989 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:30:18am

re: #986 Targetpractice

None? The PA’s report noted bruising.

If the back of my head was being slammed into concrete hard enough that I feared for my life, I would expect to have it be seriously reddened and swollen that evening. Yet we see nothing of that in the images of him at the police department.

990 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:30:44am

re: #976 Targetpractice

But it does matter if your argument is that Martin was afraid for his life. If he’s so fearful that he doesn’t want to lead Zimmerman to his apartment, why stop running? Hell, why not scream your lungs out and start banging on doors?

No. It doesn’t matter. Reason? Zimmerman left his truck to hunt him down. Look at the crime scene map and note where the truck is in relation to the crime scene. You don’t see a problem?

991 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:31:43am

re: #990 efuseakay

No. It doesn’t matter. Reason? Zimmerman left his truck to hunt him down. Look at the crime scene map and note where the truck is in relation to the crime scene. You don’t see a problem?

I do see a problem. It’s that you assume there was only one active party in this. That the other was, at best, a non-entity until the moment he was shot.

992 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:33:14am

re: #988 Targetpractice

Could be, yes. The difference between “could be” and “was”? Reasonable doubt.

A very small scratch on ones hand is very common and inconsistent with a brutal beating as described. Especially it being the left hand when Martin was right handed.

993 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:34:11am

re: #992 blueraven

A very small scratch on ones hand is very common and inconsistent with a brutal beating as described. Especially it being the left hand when Martin was right handed.

Then the State needs to show how it happened. Saying “could have” is not evidence, it’s speculation.

994 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:35:24am

re: #943 Varek Raith

Anywho, Target is not racist. I think he’s wrong, but good grief he’s not racist.

It’s more about CC. Fairly sure he’d be making the same arguments if the races were reversed.

995 blueraven  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:35:50am

re: #993 Targetpractice

Then the State needs to show how it happened. Saying “could have” is not evidence, it’s speculation.

The absence of no other marks on the hands are evidence to the contrary.

996 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:36:49am

re: #991 Targetpractice

I do see a problem. It’s that you assume there was only one active party in this. That the other was, at best, a non-entity until the moment he was shot.

Pot. Kettle.

What crime was Martin committing?

997 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:37:02am

re: #995 blueraven

The absence of no other marks on the hands are evidence to the contrary.

Then again, the State needs to show how it happened. The standard for a self-defense jury instruction is “beyond reasonable doubt.” If reasonable doubt exists, then the jury cannot rule against self-defense.

998 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:37:17am

re: #996 efuseakay

Pot. Kettle.

What crime was Martin committing?

None that I’m aware of.

999 twisty  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:39:46am

re: #985 Targetpractice

Corpses don’t develop bruises.

Look up postmortem contusion for more info. It also remains to be pointed out that TM was not a corpse at time of the alleged punches.

1000 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:40:42am

re: #994 Decatur Deb

It’s more about CC. Fairly sure he’d be making the same arguments if the races were reversed.

I will say that arguments like these make me more wary about CC.

Zimmerman instigated the whole situation. We only have his word about what happened after things started because the other party is, conveniently for him, unable to testify. And what likely would have been a minor fight based on the injuries reported other than the gunshot instead turned fatal for someone who was just walking home from the store.

And this is ok?

1001 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:42:42am

re: #1000 klys

I will say that arguments like these make me more wary about CC.

Zimmerman instigated the whole situation. We only have his word about what happened after things started because the other party is, conveniently for him, unable to testify. And what likely would have been a minor fight based on the injuries reported other than the gunshot instead turned fatal for someone who was just walking home from the store.

And this is ok?

And Zimmerman may have very well have seemed okay after “minor fight” was broken up, got home, and found dead the next morning from a subdural hematoma.

1002 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:44:04am

re: #998 Targetpractice

None that I’m aware of.

So there was only one active party in this whole mess. Zimmerman. It all begins and ends with him.

1003 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:45:14am

re: #1002 efuseakay

So there was only one active party in this whole mess. Zimmerman. It all begins and ends with him.

And you believe that, had Zimmerman not shot, Martin would have been cleared of any wrong-doing and allowed to continue on home?

1004 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:45:23am

re: #1001 Targetpractice

And Zimmerman may have very well have seemed okay after “minor fight” was broken up, got home, and found dead the next morning from a subdural hematoma.

What were you saying about speculation? Oh yeah…

1005 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:46:04am

re: #997 Targetpractice

Then again, the State needs to show how it happened. The standard for a self-defense jury instruction is “beyond reasonable doubt.” If reasonable doubt exists, then the jury cannot rule against self-defense.

You’re focused on the wrong element for your reasonable doubt. The state needs to show beyond reasonable doubt that the killing was due to depraved indifference (for the charges at hand, that is.)

I will ask again. What was the reasonable expectation of: get out of the truck after being advised not to do so, arm oneself, and pursue a suspected criminal into an unlighted area?

1006 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:46:40am

re: #1004 efuseakay

What were you saying about speculation? Oh yeah…

And saying the whole incident would have been ruled a minor fight but for the presence of gun is not?

1007 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:47:32am

re: #1005 kirkspencer

You’re focused on the wrong element for your reasonable doubt. The state needs to show beyond reasonable doubt that the killing was due to depraved indifference (for the charges at hand, that is.)

I will ask again. What was the reasonable expectation of: get out of the truck after being advised not to do so, arm oneself, and pursue a suspected criminal into an unlighted area?

No, I’m focused on the right one. The Florida jury instruction on self-defense requires that the prosecution prove “beyond reasonable doubt.”

1008 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:49:05am

re: #1003 Targetpractice

And you believe that, had Zimmerman not shot, Martin would have been cleared of any wrong-doing and allowed to continue on home?

Look. More speculation. I guess it’s ok when you do it.

FACT: Take Zimmerman out of the equation. Say he was sleeping that night. Martin would still be alive and nobody would have ever heard about either of them.

So yes. It’s all about Zimmerman.

1009 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:50:57am

re: #1001 Targetpractice

And Zimmerman may have very well have seemed okay after “minor fight” was broken up, got home, and found dead the next morning from a subdural hematoma.

At which point, manslaughter charges would probably have been filed against Trayvon Martin, if not more.

But nice hypothetical.

1010 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:51:21am

re: #1008 efuseakay

Look. More speculation. I guess it’s ok when you do it.

FACT: Take Zimmerman out of the equation. Say he was sleeping that night. Martin would still be alive and nobody would have ever heard about either of them.

So yes. It’s all about Zimmerman.

You meet speculation with speculation. Genius.

1011 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:52:01am

re: #1009 klys

At which point, manslaughter charges would probably have been filed against Trayvon Martin, if not more.

But nice hypothetical.

You mean atop the assault and battery charges?

1012 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:52:28am

re: #1011 Targetpractice

You mean atop the assault and battery charges?

Sure.

1013 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:53:45am

re: #1006 Targetpractice

And saying the whole incident would have been ruled a minor fight but for the presence of gun is not?

The fight/gun issue is moot.

Take Martin out of the equation and Zimmerman would have still ran into trouble with someone else he deemed “suspicious”.

Take Zimmerman out of the equation and Martin would still be alive.

1014 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:54:31am

re: #1010 Targetpractice

You meet speculation with speculation. Genius.

Just following your lead.

But the facts are the facts. We’re Zimmerman to never confront Martin, Martin would still be alive today.

1015 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:55:09am

re: #1014 efuseakay

Just following your lead.

And I’m just following everybody else’s lead. Speculation seems to be all we have in lieu of evidence.

1016 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:55:35am

re: #1013 efuseakay

The fight/gun issue is moot.

Take Martin out of the equation and Zimmerman would have still ran into trouble with someone else he deemed “suspicious”.

Take Zimmerman out of the equation and Martin would still be alive.

Zimmerman was not carrying to protect himself on a needed task in a dangerous environment. Zimmerman was hunting. He’ll walk.

1017 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:56:23am

re: #1016 Decatur Deb

Zimmerman was not carrying to protect himself on a needed task in a dangerous environment. Zimmerman was hunting. He’ll walk.

I’m not aware of many hunters carrying their guns holstered until what they’re hunting is atop them.

1018 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:59:03am

re: #1007 Targetpractice

No, I’m focused on the right one. The Florida jury instruction on self-defense requires that the prosecution prove “beyond reasonable doubt.”

No, TP, you’re not. You need to focus on the actual charge. The prosecution must prove the CHARGE beyond reasonable doubt. The charge is murder II, second degree homicide, which is a killing done by someone showing depraved indifference.

The defense wants to focus on the actual fight, on who punched whom, on who was on top, and all the confusion there-in. But that’s not where the charges lie. The charges are that Zimmerman acted in depraved indifference. And a proof of depraved indifference is, among other things, showing his actions contrary to reasonable expectations.

Did he exit the truck against the recommendation of dispatch? Yes.
Did he arm himself despite training that specified otherwise? Yes.
Did he pursue the suspect into a dark area? Yes.
How did he intend to force the suspect’s surrender? No answer. Reasonable expectation given no cuffs, no flashlight, no baton, no spray, is that he would have pointed the gun at the suspect making it a threat of surrender or be shot. This is, by the way, another violation of his training which included use of force evaluation.

Oh, an odd point. The only person who claims Zimmerman’s pistol was in his holster is Zimmerman. I’ve already pointed out that his testimony is suspect. I raise this due to your remark with which I agree: “I’m not aware of many hunters carrying their guns holstered until what they’re hunting is atop them.”

1019 klys  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:00:34pm

A lot of this …justification… has left a very bad taste of victim-blaming in my mouth. I don’t think it’s cool when done to rape victims and I don’t think it’s cool when done to murder victims.

I get that there’s a lot of set opinions on the case and this discussion seems to be going in circles so I’m going to bow out. I should say that I think it’s entirely possible to be pro-gun rights and still think that Zimmerman committed murder.

1020 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:04:33pm

re: #1018 kirkspencer

Murder II also requires ill will and spite, both of which have been ruled in numerous cases cannot be formed in an instant but require time to form. Barring that, the best the State can hope for is manslaughter.

And if he had gun drawn either at the time of the confrontation or during it, why not shoot Martin immediately? Why did Martin say nothing about a gun being pointed at him? And how did Zimmerman succeed in avoiding dropping it when brought to the ground?

1021 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:07:42pm

re: #1020 Targetpractice

Murder II also requires ill will and spite, both of which have been ruled in numerous cases cannot be formed in an instant but require time to form. Barring that, the best the State can hope for is manslaughter.

And if he had gun drawn either at the time of the confrontation or during it, why not shoot Martin immediately? Why did Martin say nothing about a gun being pointed at him? And how did Zimmerman succeed in avoiding dropping it when brought to the ground?

No it doesn’t. From Florida Statute 782.04 — Murder:

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

1022 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:10:34pm

re: #1021 kirkspencer

No it doesn’t. From Florida Statute 782.04 — Murder:

And the Florida law standard jury instruction for 2nd degree murder includes:

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and
2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and
3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

1023 darthstar  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:12:49pm

re: #933 Targetpractice

So how did he stop Martin?

Gaping chest wound. Takes all the fight out of a guy.

1024 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:13:55pm

re: #1022 Targetpractice

And the Florida law standard jury instruction for 2nd degree murder includes:

“These assholes always get away”

Does that fall under ill will, hatred or spite?

1025 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:15:24pm

re: #1024 geoffm33

“These assholes always get away”

Does that fall under hatred or spite?

Not according to Det. Serino.

1026 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:17:41pm

re: #1025 Targetpractice

Not according to Det. Serino.

It’s not up to Detective Serino to determine. It’s up to the jurors charged as such, right?

1027 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:18:24pm

re: #1020 Targetpractice

Murder II also requires ill will and spite, both of which have been ruled in numerous cases cannot be formed in an instant but require time to form. Barring that, the best the State can hope for is manslaughter.

And if he had gun drawn either at the time of the confrontation or during it, why not shoot Martin immediately? Why did Martin say nothing about a gun being pointed at him? And how did Zimmerman succeed in avoiding dropping it when brought to the ground?

To answer the remainder of your questions:
a) How do you know he didn’t shoot as soon as possible? (Hey, what are you [silence of dropped phone])
b) dark
c) More likely to keep than to drop something in hand when tackled when tackling is from the front. Especially when it’s a lifeline of some sort.

fwiw, the question of whether the gun was out before or not is one of those things that a better investigation would have uncovered. The fact it’s an unknown and now unknowable element means it’s best to just ignore it. The defense won’t raise it because then the “reasonable expectation” question gets raised - speculation becomes allowed by the prosecution. (So he went into this while keeping the weapon holstered? really?)

Also I will remind you that “reasonable doubt” has some limits. The prosecution is not required to prove every single element. It is required only to prove that the only other explanations for the charged crime require unreasonable thrashing about for explanation - like crossing a dark block-long yard without a flashlight when searching for a street sign when there is one under a street light half a block behind you.

1028 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:18:46pm

re: #1026 geoffm33

It’s not up to Detective Serino to determine. It’s up to the jurors charged as such, right?

Indeed, but considering case law, any conviction based upon such would likely be overturned. Florida state law usually requires that this stuff happen over time, not in an instant.

1029 geoffm33  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:20:14pm

re: #1028 Targetpractice

Indeed, but considering case law, any conviction based upon such would likely be overturned. Florida state law usually requires that this stuff happen over time, not in an instant.

Does this ill will/spite have to be against Martin specifically over time or people that look/act like Martin in general over time?

1030 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:22:26pm

re: #1027 kirkspencer

Unenthusiastic police work, reluctant prosecution, and a comfortable jury pool assure that those ‘unknowns’ will result in reasonable doubt. Zimmerman will walk. So will the next several Zimmermans.

1031 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:22:40pm

re: #1029 geoffm33

Does this ill will/spite have to be against Martin specifically over time or people that look/act like Martin in general over time?

Generally it’s understood that it’s towards the victim, not generalized. Racism is often an exception, but there’s no proof of racism in this case.

And even if the State could convince them that a generalized mindset applied, they’d have to grapple with why a guy with a “depraved mindset” called the police and gave them a running commentary of what Martin was up to.

1032 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:30:32pm

re: #1022 Targetpractice

And the Florida law standard jury instruction for 2nd degree murder includes:

Perhaps you’d do better to quote the whole thing.

To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).

3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

Definitions.
An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

Also, everyone appears to ignore Hooker v State, 497 So. 2d 982 (Fla. 2d DCA 1986) where Hooker was convicted of second degree murder when he shot into a stranger’s trailer, because of his history of racial hatred. Please recall that Zimmerman’s history of verbal attitude toward strangers, particularly non-white strangers, has been admitted into the record. He has an established history of hatred for a class of individuals.

1033 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:31:40pm

re: #1030 Decatur Deb

Unenthusiastic police work, reluctant prosecution, and a comfortable jury pool assure that those ‘unknowns’ will result in reasonable doubt. Zimmerman will walk. So will the next several Zimmermans.

Despite my arguments to TargetPractice on the matters of law, yes, you’re probably right.

But the claims of no case are incorrect.

1034 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:33:40pm

re: #1032 kirkspencer

Perhaps you’d do better to quote the whole thing.

Also, everyone appears to ignore Hooker v State, 497 So. 2d 982 (Fla. 2d DCA 1986) where Hooker was convicted of second degree murder when he shot into a stranger’s trailer, because of his history of racial hatred. Please recall that Zimmerman’s history of verbal attitude toward strangers, particularly non-white strangers, has been admitted into the record. He has an established history of hatred for a class of individuals.

I also recall that Zimmerman and his wife tutored black and white children on weekends, he went into business with a black person, he put up fliers calling for the arrest of a police lieutenant’s son for beating up a black man, and the FBI failed to find any evidence of racism significant enough to charge him with a crime.

1035 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:50:41pm

re: #976 Targetpractice

But it does matter if your argument is that Martin was afraid for his life. If he’s so fearful that he doesn’t want to lead Zimmerman to his apartment, why stop running? Hell, why not scream your lungs out and start banging on doors?

It doesn’t have to be fear. It could be he didn’t want to lead this man following him to his younger brother.

1036 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:02:53pm

re: #1034 Targetpractice

I also recall that Zimmerman and his wife tutored black and white children on weekends, he went into business with a black person, he put up fliers calling for the arrest of a police lieutenant’s son for beating up a black man, and the FBI failed to find any evidence of racism significant enough to charge him with a crime.

The only claim for the flyers was a letter from an unnamed Zimmerman relative. Interviews with various individuals involved in the Collison came up with nobody who recalled the flyers, much less George being involved handing them out. These individuals included those named in the letter.

He did go into business with a black person. They parted on bad terms when the business failed, but he did do it.

The claim of tutoring always winds up sourced to the Reuters background article from April of 2012. The problem with that is that the article itself makes no such claims. reuters.com

Finally, being a racist is in itself insufficient for arrest by the FBI. That’s an extraordinarily weak reed to lean on.

1037 Joanne  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:02:54pm

re: #1022 Targetpractice

And the Florida law standard jury instruction for 2nd degree murder includes:

I don’t know if saying those motherfucking assholes is included in ill-will or hatred, but, as much as his attorney wants everyone to believe, most people do not call people motherfuckers or assholes in genial terms.

1038 palomino  Tue, Jul 9, 2013 4:14:50pm

re: #158 Interesting Times

Uh, do you realize that failing to pay for the routine is what leads to catastrophic in the first place? o_O

You’re exactly right. But your scientific facts will do nothing but confuse Dr. Idaho.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
3 hours ago
Views: 44 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 160 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1