Rand Paul Stands by His ‘Southern Avenger’

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More: Rand Paul Stands by His ‘Southern Avenger’

WASHINGTON –- In an interview with The Huffington Post, Sen. Rand Paul stoutly defended an aide who, as a radio shock jock in South Carolina, praised John Wilkes Booth, heaped scorn on Abraham Lincoln and wore a ski mask emblazoned with the stars and bars of the Confederate Battle Flag.

Paul (R-Ky.) stressed that he opposed such views, many of which have been recanted by the Senate aide, Jack Hunter, who co-wrote Paul’s first book in 2010 and who is now his social media adviser in Washington.

“I’m not a fan of secession,” Paul said. “I think the things he said about John Wilkes Booth are absolutely stupid. I think Lincoln was one of our greatest presidents. Do I think Lincoln was wrong is taking away the freedom of the press and the right of habeas corpus? Yeah.

“There were great people who were for emancipation. Lincoln came to his greatness. One Republican congressman described it as ‘on borrowed plumage.’ I love the description, because there were some great fighters [for emancipation] and Lincoln had to be pushed. But I’m not an enemy of Lincoln, like some who think he was an awful person.”

Paul said that Hunter had never acted in a discriminatory way, and that his earlier work in South Carolina was a form of youthful political showmanship.

“People are calling him a white supremacist,” Paul told me in his Senate office. “If I thought he was a white supremacist, he would be fired immediately. If I thought he would treat anybody on the color of their skin different that others, I’d fire him immediately.

“All I can say is, we have a zero tolerance policy for anybody who displays discriminatory behavior or belief in discriminating against people based on the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, anything like that,” Paul told me. “We won’t tolerate any of that, and I’ve seen no evidence of that.

More at Huffington Post.

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507 comments
1 MikeTheModerateDemocrat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 6:11:22am

“I’m not a fan of secession.” Whoa Rand, that’s a pretty strong repudiation there. Move over Frederick Douglass.

2 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 6:25:38am

Like father like son. His father employed the equally toxic and CSA apologixing, Lew Rockwell. Sorry Rand but you and Hunter are both full of shit. Own up asswipe.

3 urbanmeemaw  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:25:19am

Paul said that Hunter had never acted in a discriminatory way, and that his earlier work in South Carolina was a form of youthful political showmanship.

Sort of like burning crosses?

Idea for new country song (h/t Tammy Wynette): “Stand by Rand’s Man”.

Maybe Andrew Sullivan will perform it.

4 b.d.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:04:41am

Not much of a ringing endorsement of ole honest Abe there from Rand.

5 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:12:49am

He doesn’t act that way - he just writes like he does.

So Rand, have you hired a con-man trying to hook the rubes, or a racist afraid to back up his own words?
:p

6 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:13:46am
7 Skip Intro  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:15:05am
Paul said that Hunter had never acted in a discriminatory way, and that his earlier work in South Carolina was a form of youthful political showmanship.

Yes, he was a mere youth of 35 when he did those things, all of five years ago.

8 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:16:02am

Rand Paul will never be able to show his face at Howard University after this.//

9 Shockingly, Pathetically Low  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:17:45am

Looks like he approves of abolitionists though. Pity Lincoln wasn’t one — he merely produced the Emancipation Proclamation and pushed the 13th amendment through Congress.

10 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:18:02am

re: #3 urbanmeemaw

a form of youthful political showmanship.

Political showmanship. That’s actually a pretty fair depiction of most wingnut activities, including those taking place in Congress on a regular basis.

11 Hal_10000  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:22:26am

One small caveat: if you read what Hunter has written over the last few years, he’s supported same sex marriage, bashed Dinesh D’Souza’s stupid book/film and opposed War on Terror powers. His recent political writing has been within the mainstream Right. I don’t think his shock jock days are what drew Paul to him.

That having been said, the Pauls seems to have a continuing problem with this sort of thing. I don’t think the Southern Avenger crap was remotely funny or appropriate. I think it appeals to delusional Southern myth-making about how the Civil War “wasn’t about slavery” and other BS. It’s a severe disappointment.

12 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:23:18am

“Wuhlllll, Ah’m no fan of secession, but when the Man stomps on y’all, y’all just gotta do whatcha gotta do …”

-Rand Paul’s ggf, circa 1861

(Not intended to be a factual statement)

13 Mattand  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:24:05am

Whole lotta lulz and butthurt going on over at the American Conservative regarding Jack Hunter/Southern Avenger.

Swear to God, if a Democratic aide had a “youthful indiscretion” like being FUCKING PRO-JOHN WILKES BOOTH the apoplexy in the GOP would be earth shattering.

The general cluelessness and white privilge in both the article and comments is sad, too.

The only hopeful things in the whole mess is that:

A) The author, in a rare fit of self-awareness, tells everyone to knock off the whole “White people don’t get to celebrate their heritage” horseshit.

B) Allegedly, Hunter is pro-gay marriage.

14 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:30:38am

re: #13 Mattand

Whole lotta lulz and butthurt going on over at the American Conservative regarding Jack Hunter/Southern Avenger.

Swear to God, if a Democratic aide had a “youthful indiscretion” like being FUCKING PRO-JOHN WILKES BOOTH the apoplexy in the GOP would be earth shattering.

The general cluelessness and white privilge in both the article and comments is sad, too.

The only hopeful things in the whole mess is that:

A) The author, in a rare fit of self-awareness, tells everyone to knock off the whole “White people don’t get to celebrate their heritage” horseshit.

B) Allegedly, Hunter is pro-gay marriage.

Of course he is. If the marriage licenses are on file with full name and address information on them they will be easier to find once the revolution comes.
//////

15 Weet  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:34:54am
16 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:36:42am

“I’m not a fan of secession”

Or a fan of doing anything to stop it.

17 Weet  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:37:42am
18 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:38:36am

re: #16 Internet Tough Guy

“I’m not a fan of secession”

Or a fan of doing anything to stop it.

Care to elaborate on that, hatchling?

19 Weet  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:42:05am

A coalition of 532 agriculture groups, including 16 from Texas, sent a letter to Boehner last week urging House leaders to keep both the farm and nutrition programs in the bill.
Don’t Split Farm Bill

20 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:42:11am

bull.shit.

The pilot in the Asiana Airlines crash complaining of being temporarily blinded by a bright flash in the cockpit has revived concerns about the risks from people pointing lasers at aircraft.

Desperate CYA attempt in progress.

21 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:43:20am

It is not an error of some sort that Rand hired Jack Hunter. They read all the same books, believe in the same ideology. Look at the ‘recommended reading’ in the back of the book they wrote together. It starts with ‘Must read classics in the cause of liberty’: Hayak, Goldwater, von Mises, Rothbard, and Ayn Rand.

Then he lists three books by his father.

Then he names a book by Thomas Woods. Woods, like Hunter, is a League of the South guy. Woods is a founder, in fact.

Also on the rec list:

Glenn Beck
Erick Erickson
Andrew Napolitano
Pat Buchanan
The American Conservative

And others with whom I am not familiar. They might be just as bad or worse.

This is the intellectual elite of the paleoconservatives.

This is not an accidental association. This is who these people are.

22 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:45:49am

re: #18 Vicious Babushka

I just find it interesting that he felt compelled to criticize responses to secessionist treason right after so weakly saying he didn’t support secession outright.

Considering his word choice, I can’t say he opposed secession.

23 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:46:39am

re: #21 wrenchwench

It is not an error of some sort that Rand hired Jack Hunter. They read all the same books, believe in the same ideology. Look at the ‘recommended reading’ in the back of the book they wrote together. It starts with ‘Must read classics in the cause of liberty’: Hayak, Goldwater, von Mises, Rothbard, and Ayn Rand.

Oh shit, I clicked on that Amazon links, and now it and similar shit will show up in the “recommended” section the next half-dozen or so times I visit Amazon.

24 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:48:58am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

When I go to Amazon, it shows me Doctor Who stuff.

Namely because I have purchased Series 3, 4, the specials, 5, and 6 from them.

It’s pleasant. :3

25 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:50:18am

re: #20 goddamnedfrank

bull.shit.

Desperate CYA attempt in progress.

Co-pilot: Captain! I was just blinded by a flash of light! I can’t see, you take over!

Captain: Nah man, keep flying. I need my nap.

26 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:50:29am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

Oh shit, I clicked on that Amazon links, and now it and similar shit will show up in the “recommended” section the next half-dozen or so times I visit Amazon.

They have a ‘fix this recommendation’ thingy, and a ‘remove this from my browsing history’ thingy to prevent that. I’m no help in finding those thingies, though.

27 brennant  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:50:33am

re: #21 wrenchwench

This should be added to the front page.

28 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:50:41am

re: #20 goddamnedfrank

Blinded By The Light….

29 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:50:48am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

Yes. They have a tendency to do that. I bought some Yankee Candles through them and most of what I see in the Home category is Yankee Candles.

30 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:51:25am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

Yeah, really hate when that happens.

31 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:54:06am

re: #20 goddamnedfrank

It might be CYA, or it might be a genuine fact. They’ll investigate the claim thoroughly, though the long range videos shot as the plane landed don’t appear to show any kind of reflections or anything out of the ordinary occurring in the cockpit area prior to landing.

They’ll also look at whether the throttle settings were adjusted incorrectly or whether there was a malfunction in the throttle control.

What we know so far seems to indicate pilot error or errors that led to the plane being too low and too slow resulting in the plane hitting the seawall short of the runway.

What we also know doesn’t seem to indicate that Korean culture was to blame (something CNN was quick to report on, even though Korean airlines have had a pretty good safety record up to the current incident after a spate of problems a couple decades ago).

32 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:58:38am

re: #31 lawhawk

Korean culture, heh. That’s just some derp from the geniuses at CNN. The fact is that either the co-pilot or the captain can kick the bucket right in their seat and the plane should be able to land safely.

33 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 8:59:08am

“All I can say is, we have a zero tolerance policy for anybody who displays discriminatory behavior or belief in discriminating against people based on the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, anything like that,” Paul told me. “We won’t tolerate any of that, and I’ve seen no evidence of that.

I don’t see any connectino between Southern secessionism and racism. Do you?

It was all about STATES’ RIGHTS

Now shut up and go home.

/

34 b.d.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:00:08am

re: #20 goddamnedfrank

bull.shit.

Desperate CYA attempt in progress.

It was those darn kids with their laser pointers!

35 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:00:46am

re: #33 Sol Berdinowitz

“All I can say is, we have a zero tolerance policy for anybody who displays discriminatory behavior or belief in discriminating against people based on the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, anything like that,” Paul told me. “We won’t tolerate any of that, and I’ve seen no evidence of that.

I don’t see any connectino between Southern secessionism and racism. Do you?

It was all about STATES’ RIGHTS

Now shut up and go home.

/

I mean, it’s not as though the seceding states themselves mentioned slavery as the primary reason they were flouncing.

Oh wait they totally did mention that.

36 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:01:20am


Yes, she was a Republican, but her fellow Republicans in Kansas voted down two separate referenda granting suffrage to blacks and women, respectively, which she was supporting.

She later ended up on different sides from Frederick Douglas and began devoting herself exclusively to expanding equal rights to women.

37 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:01:28am

re: #20 goddamnedfrank

bull.shit.

Desperate CYA attempt in progress.

Judging the angle the plane was at when that supposedly happened…
Yeah, smells like BS.

38 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:02:31am

re: #35 Vicious Babushka

I mean, it’s not as though the seceding states themselves mentioned slavery as the primary reason they were flouncing.

Oh wait they totally did mention that.

Heh.

I always love the ZOMG IT WAS ABOUT STATES’ RIGHTS NOT SLAVERY canard from the neo-Confederate douchebags.

Yeah. It was about a state’s right to decide that owning another human being and treating them like an animal and working them to death in the fields was legal. That’s the part none of these assholes want to admit.

39 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:02:35am
40 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:02:44am

re: #36 lawhawk

[Embedded content]


Yes, she was a Republican, but her fellow Republicans in Kansas voted down two separate referenda granting suffrage to blacks and women, respectively, which she was supporting.

She later ended up on different sides from Frederick Douglas and began devoting herself exclusively to expanding equal rights to women.

It’s funny though how they can’t find any civil-rights-supporting Republicans any more recently than Eisenhower.

Why is that?

41 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:03:23am

re: #40 Vicious Babushka

It’s funny though how they can’t find any civil-rights-supporting Republicans any more recently than Eisenhower.

Why is that?

Clearly it’s a liberal conspiracy.

43 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:05:10am
44 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:05:28am

I do not approve of tacking on charges this freaking late in the trial. I mean, it’s just about over.
Weaksauce.

45 Skip Intro  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:07:19am

re: #37 Varek Raith

Judging the angle the plane was at when that supposedly happened…
Yeah, smells like BS.

I don’t know what went wrong with the landing, but from what I’ve been reading the showboating head of the NTSB is providing way more information than is normal at this stage of an investigation. Usually they wait until they have the full story.

I guess after being denied the Sec of Labor slot, Deborah Hersman has decided to use this to put the spotlight back on her.

46 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:07:22am

Throwback Thursday…wasn’t I cute back then?

Image: 942696_216417328507589_369434624_n.jpg

47 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:08:03am

re: #42 Varek Raith

Fireworks at Zimmerman trial over manslaughter charge, jury instructions.

I think that will get Zimmerman definitely acquitted of the 2nd degree murder charge. But, on the other hand, the manslaughter charge is probably going to seriously stick, along with other lesser charges.

48 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:08:09am
Behind the flashy and provocative rhetoric, Paul said, Hunter often made thought-provoking arguments. “Look and listen to the actual words and not to the headlines, people,” Paul told me.
……
“There were great people who were for emancipation. Lincoln came to his greatness. One Republican congressman described it as ‘on borrowed plumage.’ I love the description, because there were some great fighters [for emancipation] and Lincoln had to be pushed. But I’m not an enemy of Lincoln, like some who think he was an awful person.”

Nice nuance, RP.

49 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:09:02am

re: #46 darthstar

Throwback Thursday…wasn’t I cute back then?

Image: 942696_216417328507589_369434624_n.jpg

Please, he’s no different from the rest of you organisms. Shooting DNA at each other to make babies. I find it offensive!
-Bender

50 Iwouldprefernotto  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:09:46am

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

If you’re in a political party where there are people who think Abraham Lincoln was a monster, GET OUT.

1) Was Ronald Reagan wrong for always talking-up Lincoln? Freed slaves , etc. Perhaps Reagan was a RINO.

51 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:10:19am

re: #39 lawhawk

The Republican hostility to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and both of the nominees Obama has put forward for it has been really weird. Not to mention just really wingnuttery.

52 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:10:36am

re: #46 darthstar

Throwback Thursday…wasn’t I cute back then?

Image: 942696_216417328507589_369434624_n.jpg

You look a lot like me at that age!

53 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:10:40am

re: #49 Varek Raith

Please, he’s no different from the rest of you organisms. Shooting DNA at each other to make babies. I find it offensive!
-Bender

Pew, pew!

54 GunstarGreen  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:10:53am

re: #36 lawhawk

[Embedded content]


Yes, she was a Republican, but her fellow Republicans in Kansas voted down two separate referenda granting suffrage to blacks and women, respectively, which she was supporting.

She later ended up on different sides from Frederick Douglas and began devoting herself exclusively to expanding equal rights to women.

Dishonest, or Stupid?

WE REPORT, YOU DECIDE!

55 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:11:32am

re: #46 darthstar

Throwback Thursday…wasn’t I cute back then?

Image: 942696_216417328507589_369434624_n.jpg

Swimming champion!

56 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:12:31am

re: #51 Bulworth

They’ve opposed the creation from day 1. So, they’re doing everything they can from it operating, whether it’s budgetary or through refusing to confirm nominations to its top posts.

It’s a strategy they’ve been using elsewhere, but is felt most in this particular agency because it is so new (begun under Obama).

57 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:13:02am

7&8 aren’t so bad.

58 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:13:20am

re: #46 darthstar

Throwback Thursday…wasn’t I cute back then?

Image: 942696_216417328507589_369434624_n.jpg

Breakfast!

59 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:13:22am

re: #52 wrenchwench

Come to think of it so do I.

60 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:13:25am

re: #55 jaunte

Swimming champion!

I miss my tail.

61 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:13:28am

re: #56 lawhawk

The “We Hate Consumers” Party.

62 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:14:01am

re: #36 lawhawk

Yes, she was a Republican, but her fellow Republicans in Kansas voted down two separate referenda granting suffrage to blacks and women, respectively, which she was supporting.

She later ended up on different sides from Frederick Douglas and began devoting herself exclusively to expanding equal rights to women.

Yes, she was anti-abortion, but consider that in her time it was legal and totally unregulated, and you had Gosnell-like horror chambers like Madame Restell’s establishment.

63 makeitstop  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:14:25am
“All I can say is, we have a zero tolerance policy for anybody who displays discriminatory behavior or belief in discriminating against people based on the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, anything like that…”

I’m thinking Aqua Buddha Boy needs a refresher on the meaning of ‘zero tolerance.’ He’s not quite getting it.

64 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:14:39am
65 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:15:01am
66 Heywood Jabloeme  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:15:11am

This is actually good for the future politics of the Democratic party.

Rubio has already proven himself incapable of getting the Replican nomination because of his backing of an immigration bill which Republican Congresswoman Michelle Bachman described as (paraphrasing) “The Senate Republicans stabbing the Congressional Republicans in the back”.

Now Paul is proving the he really is a political amateur becuase he doesn’t realize that he cannot win a General Election acting like this.

This kind of stuff is what the Rpublicans will stew it, once Hillary is elected.

67 Weet  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:15:20am
68 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:15:40am

Thanks, Eddie.

69 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:16:29am
70 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:17:54am

re: #69 Gus

[Embedded content]

Hey, don’t you need to do something like *spying* in order to discover covert activities by other countries?
///

71 GunstarGreen  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:19:02am

re: #61 Bulworth

The “We Hate Consumers” Party.

Capitalism was never designed to work in an oligarchy-like environment. It requires fair and open competition. Megacorps that can afford to crush their opposition outright break every parameter that the system is based on.

As much as they may like to say they like Capitalism, Republicans do not. They are not capitalists, they are corporatists. And the corporate market is not a free market; it does not behave as a free market does. A free market cannot afford to abuse its customers because there are readily-available alternatives. A corporatist market can and does abuse its customers because they really don’t have much choice in the matter.

72 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:19:43am

re: #70 Feline Fearless Leader

No. We wait for other countries to voluntarily self-report to us any and all covert activities. //

73 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:21:13am
74 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:22:13am

re: #72 Bulworth

And while we are waiting for those countries to report to us; let’s see if we can steer a satellite over Havana.

75 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:22:29am

re: #72 Bulworth

No. We wait for other countries to voluntarily self-report to us any and all covert activities. //

Why not? It works for corporations reporting their own safety violations. Most of the time.
/

76 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:22:49am

re: #71 GunstarGreen

Capitalism was never designed

This is actually the most important bit. Capitalism is an evolutionary thing, or rather, capitalism rewards behavior in a ‘selecting for the fittest’ fashion, and the fittest aren’t those that produce the most wealth, it’s whatever garners the most money. The two are only incidentally related.

As much as they may like to say they like Capitalism, Republicans do not. They are not capitalists, they are corporatists. And the corporate market is not a free market; it does not behave as a free market does. A free market cannot afford to abuse its customers because there are readily-available alternatives. A corporatist market can and does abuse its customers because they really don’t have much choice in the matter.

This bit is absolutely true, though a real free market would also be horrific. But corporatism is the biggest current problem we’ve got, absolutely. And the founding fathers foresaw it, too.

77 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:25:56am

Must watch…it’s only three minutes.

78 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:26:12am
79 EmmaAnne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:26:21am

re: #1 MikeTheModerateDemocrat

“I’m not a fan of secession.” Whoa Rand, that’s a pretty strong repudiation there. Move over Frederick Douglass.

Not “an enemy of Lincoln” either. I am fully reassured.

/

80 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:28:14am

re: #68 darthstar

BS meter pegging on that one. It has spoof written all over it - after all, typewriters need ink to function, and someone could get the ink spools if they’re not immediately destroyed.

81 b.d.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:28:58am

re: #67 Weet

[Embedded content]

I would imagine that the plane is 1/2 full of reporters again.

82 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:29:56am

Thomas Woods is on Rand Paul’s recommended reading list twice, so here’s some more info about Woods. Woods wrote this at the end of his essay, ‘Christendom’s Last Stand’:

So the War Between the States, far from a conflict over mere material interests, was for the South a struggle against an atheistic individualism and an unrelenting rationalism in politics and religion, in favor of a Christian understanding of authority, social order and theology itself. The intelligent Left knows this, and even the incurably stupid, like Carol Moseley-Braun, must at least sense it. For all their ignorant blather about slavery and civil rights, what truly enrages most liberals about the Confederate Battle Flag is its message of defiance. They see in it the remnants of a traditional society determined to resist cultural and political homogenization, and refusing to be steamrolled by the forces of progress.

I have been a Northerner for my entire 24 years. But when we reflect on what was really at stake in the “late unpleasantness,” we can join with Alexander Stephens in observing that “the cause of the South is the cause of us all.”

83 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:30:06am

re: #80 lawhawk

Spools of ribbon or cartridges can be read and info passed on to other groups. This is not going to stop spying.

84 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:31:02am

re: #80 lawhawk

BS meter pegging on that one. It has spoof written all over it - after all, typewriters need ink to function, and someone could get the ink spools if they’re not immediately destroyed.

Nope. They have one key advantage. No one knows WTF a typewriter is anymore.
/

85 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:32:12am

re: #84 Varek Raith

There are some of us who not only know what a typewriter is but know how to use it. :)

86 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:33:05am

re: #83 PhillyPretzel

Even the claim that this helps track down whoever was responsible for passing on documents doesn’t pass the smell test, particularly considering that computer documents can likewise be tracked by metadata.

But as Varek astutely notes, people of a certain age have no idea what a typewriter is or how it functions. /damned kids, get off my lawn…

87 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:33:52am

re: #83 PhillyPretzel

Spools of ribbon or cartridges can be read and info passed on to other groups. This is not going to stop spying.

That’s very true, but if the spools are promptly destroyed (incinerated) after they’re used up, that problem is solved. And if this is the Russian Intelligence apparatus doing this, I’d say there’s a damned good chance those spools will be destroyed after use.

88 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:34:44am

re: #83 PhillyPretzel

Spools of ribbon or cartridges can be read and info passed on to other groups. This is not going to stop spying.

But cloak and dagger spying is far more exciting.

89 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:35:25am
90 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:35:44am

re: #87 Dr Lizardo

I agree. I do not doubt that is how they will try to do it. Do keep in mind that there are quite a few people who like challenges and will try to find a way of passing info to another group.

91 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:37:17am

re: #32 Gus

Korean culture, heh. That’s just some derp from the geniuses at CNN. The fact is that either the co-pilot or the captain can kick the bucket right in their seat and the plane should be able to land safely.

Funny how they don’t blame white culture for the plethora of mass shootings and serial killings by white men.

92 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:37:20am

re: #87 Dr Lizardo

Breaking: Sheryl Atkisson is reporting that her typewriter has been hacked. //

93 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:37:48am

re: #91 gwangung

What did “Korean culture” supposedly have to do with it?

94 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:37:56am

re: #82 wrenchwench

Woods: “In the North where religion is more frequently considered a matter of mere individual preference and whim, the attitude is: “You worship God in your way and we’ll worship him in ours.” But in the South, where tolerance is not the same thing as indifference, people are more likely to say: “You worship God in your way and we’ll worship him in his.”

Talibanesque.

95 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:38:15am

re: #92 Bulworth

lol. What type of ax was used? ///

96 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:38:24am
97 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:38:35am

re: #94 jaunte

Freedom!

98 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:38:56am
99 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:39:34am


100 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:40:37am

re: #96 Lidane

What this means is they’re going to try to kill it separately. If they do that, we seriously will actually see riots, and kind of justifiably.

101 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:41:53am

re: #82 wrenchwench

You know, I don’t think Woods is necessarily wrong here. I’ve often looked at the Civil War as a battle between a modern liberal (by 1860 standards) nation state and an agrarian feudal society that more resembled 15th century Europe than anything else.

The difference between Woods and myself is that I think it a good thing that the liberal nation state destroyed the feudal state. The world needed more of the former and fewer of the latter.

102 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:42:11am

re: #93 Bulworth

What did “Korean culture” supposedly have to do with it?

Some folks who have a racist mentality was speculating that deference in Korean culture caused the copilot not to advise the pilot.

Frankly, only someone who has racist ideas will say that; anybody who KNOWS Koreans will laugh their asses off at that.

103 Dr Lizardo  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:43:08am

re: #90 PhillyPretzel

I agree. I do not doubt that is how they will try to do it. Do keep in mind that there are quite a few people who like challenges and will try to find a way of passing info to another group.

Of course, after all, spying was going on in the Cold War days long before the advent of the personal computer or the laptop or the smartphone.

104 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:44:48am

re: #82 wrenchwench

For all their ignorant blather about slavery and civil rights,

Yes, Mr. Woods, all the ignorant blather about slavery and civil rights is just ignorant blather. //

105 Tigger2  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:45:45am

re: #89 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Worthless assholes.

106 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:47:32am

Human-powered hover bike wins coveted $250K prize

The highly-coveted Igor I. Sikorsky Human Powered Helicopter Competition — known as the AHS Sikorsky prize for short — was awarded for the first time in its history Thursday to AeroVelo, a Toronto-based engineering team made up of University of Toronto students, alumni and volunteers.

Cool video at the link.

107 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:48:02am

re: #82 wrenchwench

They see in it (confederate flag) the remnants of a traditional society determined to resist cultural and political homogenization, and refusing to be steamrolled by the forces of progress.

So the confederates were resisting “cultural and political homogenization”? Seems to me that’s exactly what they wanted to impose, “worshipping God as He wants to be worshipped”, etc.

108 Iwouldprefernotto  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:48:09am

re: #101 Ian G.

You know, I don’t think Woods is necessarily wrong here. I’ve often looked at the Civil War as a battle between a modern liberal (by 1860 standards) nation state and an agrarian feudal society that more resembled 15th century Europe than anything else.

The difference between Woods and myself is that I think it a good thing that the liberal nation state destroyed the feudal state. The world needed more of the former and fewer of the latter.

In the South, they called themselves “Slave States”

109 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:49:51am

re: #106 Bubblehead II

Cool.

110 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:50:22am

re: #61 Bulworth

The “We Hate Consumers” Party.

But we love their money.

111 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:51:15am

re: #102 gwangung

After some really bad plane crashes due to pilot error, and particularly the Tenerife disaster, it was found that the copilot didn’t act forcefully enough to warn the pilot of a major blunder. It forced a reevaluation of how much deference was given to the pilot and required retraining on cockpit interactions so that if the copilot sees something wrong, that they come out and say it.

112 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:52:50am

Do I think Lincoln was wrong is taking away the freedom of the press and the right of habeas corpus?

Article One, Section 9, clause 2: “The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”

congress at the time strongly supported the president in his actions in regards to suspension of habeas corpus. jeff davis also suspended habeas corpus, and declared martial law into the bargain…

113 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:54:09am
114 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:55:11am

re: #102 gwangung

Some folks who have a racist mentality was speculating that deference in Korean culture caused the copilot not to advise the pilot.

Frankly, only someone who has racist ideas will say that; anybody who KNOWS Koreans will laugh their asses off at that.

A few years ago, the same phenomenon of deference was attributed to ‘military culture’. I guess the case at the time involved white guys.

115 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:55:26am

re: #113 Lidane

They will try to sneak it into any bill they can. They want to enforce their view/religion on others.

116 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:55:33am

re: #112 engineer cat

jeff davis also suspended habeas corpus, and declared martial law into the bargain…

Completely different because Shut Up

/

117 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:56:14am
118 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:59:34am

re: #82 wrenchwench

Thomas Woods is on Rand Paul’s recommended reading list twice, so here’s some more info about Woods. Woods wrote this at the end of his essay, ‘Christendom’s Last Stand’:

Holy crap! That was one of the biggest pieces pseudo-intellectual BS I’ve ever read in my life.

119 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:59:46am

re: #78 jaunte

The free market in Texas:
Flea-Market Abortions Thrive as Clinics Face Closure

Women in the Lower Rio Grande Valley, along the southeastern border with Mexico, said it’s already harder for them to control their reproductive lives since the state cut funding for birth control in 2011.

In the past few years, health-care providers in the valley, one of the state and nation’s poorest regions, have seen an increasing number of women suffering from incomplete abortions and bleeding after taking drugs unsupervised, they said.

And these bastard politicians call themselves “pro-life”

120 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:00:11am

a struggle against an atheistic individualism and an unrelenting rationalism in politics and religion, in favor of a Christian understanding of authority, social order and theology itself

“atheistic” here is a meaningless word merely thrown in to cast a negative light on “individualism”, normally touted as a very positive value as far as americans, not to mention conservatives, are concerned

as for “unrelenting rationalism”, i should only wish for such a thing!

in reality a government dominated by laissez-faire entrepreneurs and expansionist big business overwhelmed a society that was archaic and immoral even by the standards of spartan greece in the 4th century bc

121 Heywood Jabloeme  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:00:19am

re: #116 Bulworth

Completely different because Shut Up

/

The Congress and President Roosevelt suspended Habius Corpus when the interned the Japanese Amricans during WWII and SCOTUS was complicit because they failed to hear the case until the war was over.

The habit of choosing expediency over Civil Rigths during war time is a long held US tradition.

PS - The “War on Terrorism” has never been officially declared by Congress. That is why Obama can’t file Treason charges against Snowden and why he can’t use that claim in the many court cases he has been invovled in.

122 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:00:34am

re: #113 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Well, that strategy spread around the nation quickly didn’t it?

123 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:00:50am

re: #112 engineer cat

Jefferson Davis, and the Confederate government in general, don’t get much press in these fanciful references to the Lost Cause of State’s Rights. It’s almost as if the Confederacy’s more modern defenders want us all to think the South’s role in the Civil War was patriotic military resistance to “Northern Agression” waged entirely by the heroic Generals Lee and Stonewall Jackson, with no government orchestrating said resistance.

124 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:01:51am
125 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:02:38am

re: #120 engineer cat

Not just ‘rationalism’ but “unrelenting rationalism”. Yes, that was it. The unrelenting rationalism of it all. /

126 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:04:34am

re: #118 Romantic Heretic

Holy crap! That was one of the biggest pieces pseudo-intellectual BS I’ve ever read in my life.

Woods is now a member of this institute which has placed itself in charge of ‘scholarship’ on traditional southern culture.

The Institute is not a Southern heritage preservation society, nor is it concerned merely with the history of the region. Its work is more philosophic in nature, namely to explore the metaphysical image of things human and divine to which the Southern tradition bears witness. This includes seeking to understand the value of those features of community that promote an enduring and humane order: the importance of private property, place, piety, humility, manners, classical liberal studies, rhetoric, and the importance of a human scale to political order. We are interested both in what those values intimate for our own time, and in how they came to be features of the Southern tradition.

127 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:06:06am

re: #126 wrenchwench

the importance of private property, place, piety, humility, manners, classical liberal studies, rhetoric, and the importance of a human scale to political order.

“place”???

128 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:06:19am

re: #123 Bulworth

Jefferson Davis, and the Confederate government in general, don’t get much press in these fanciful references to the Lost Cause of State’s Rights. It’s almost as if the Confederacy’s more modern defenders want us all to think the South’s role in the Civil War was patriotic military resistance to “Northern Agression” waged entirely by the heroic Generals Lee and Stonewall Jackson, with no government orchestrating said resistance.

They also never, ever mention slavery. It’s completely airbrushed from the pseudo-histories that the Lost Causers love to write. It’s like writing a history of the Third Reich without ever mentioning Auschwitz. Inconvenient facts and all.

129 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:07:16am

re: #123 Bulworth

Jefferson Davis, and the Confederate government in general, don’t get much press in these fanciful references to the Lost Cause of State’s Rights. It’s almost as if the Confederacy’s more modern defenders want us all to think the South’s role in the Civil War was patriotic military resistance to “Northern Agression” waged entirely by the heroic Generals Lee and Stonewall Jackson, with no government orchestrating said resistance.

i guess it’s supposed to have been a giagantic “stand your ground” action

130 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:07:17am

re: #120 engineer cat

“atheistic” here is a meaningless word merely thrown in to cast a negative light on “individualism”, normally touted as a very positive value as far as americans, not to mention conservatives, are concerned

Translation: Individualism is good when some people can exercise the right of individualism.

It’s breath-taking, this double-speak that can rail at a policy of religious pluralism and then argue that secessionists just wanted to resist cultural and political homogenization.

131 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:07:40am

re: #126 wrenchwench

the importance of private property

Which of course includes OTHER HUMAN FUCKING BEINGS.

132 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:07:49am
133 Mattand  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:09:31am

re: #82 wrenchwench

re: #118 Romantic Heretic

The fact that there are people, 160 years later, who still refuse to acknowledge slavery as the major force in starting the Civil War, is one of the reasons I often think we’re headed for Part Deus.

I’m so fucking sick of conservatives making excuses for the Confederacy. And to all the Republican LGF readers out there: this is your goddamn chosen party. I hope you can live yourselves.

134 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:10:08am
135 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:11:05am

re: #127 engineer cat

“place”???

Yes, and everyone should know theirs and not get uppity about it.

136 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:11:35am

re: #134 lawhawk

Manslaughter’s still a felony, right?

137 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:13:07am

Here’s an article from the Chronicle of Higher Education on the Abbeville Institute.

Scholars Nostalgic for the Old South Study the Virtues of Secession, Quietly
To avoid being tagged as racist, professors retreat to the Abbeville Institute to study the virtues of secession

[…]

The institute now has 64 associated scholars from various colleges and disciplines. They gather to discuss topics about the South that they feel are misrepresented in today’s classrooms. Feeling a chilly reception to its ideas—officials of the Southern Poverty Law Center say its work borders on white supremacy—the group has kept a low profile. Mr. Livingston’s own department chair, as well as a number of Emory history professors, say they have never heard of it.

[…]

To do so, they have created their own guarded society, something of a secession in its own right. Mr. Livingston will not provide Abbeville’s entire list of scholars and participants, because he fears “academics who claim to find something valuable in the Southern tradition are sure to suffer abuse.” Institute members say they rarely submit work in the field to mainstream journals. Now they are creating a Web periodical, called Arator, as an outlet. The title is taken from an 1813 book by a Virginia planter and senator named John Taylor, who defended “the socioeconomic and political order of an agrarian republic,” according to one description.

[…]

138 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:13:21am

re: #134 lawhawk

manslaughter

is there such a thing as a charge of aggravated manslaughter?

139 b.d.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:13:28am

re: #132 darthstar

[Embedded content]

140 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:13:43am

On another note:

Russia Says It Will Arrest Openly Gay Tourists

Any comment, Glenn Greenwald?

141 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:14:45am

re: #137 wrenchwench

Here’s an article from the Chronicle of Higher Education on the Abbeville Institute.

“Arator”

ploughman, i think

an archaic english word for plough is ‘ardh’

142 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:15:47am

re: #134 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Not sure the State’s ploy here could have been more obvious, w/ regards to springing the third degree business on the court at an hour and a half before it convened.

143 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:16:15am

re: #132 darthstar

[Embedded content]

According to WaPo it’s because of a weather system out of Greenland.

Update: It turns out that several West-bound trans-Atlantic flights are diverting south today due to unusual turbulence over Greenland. It’s still possible that Snowden may be on board (click here for why) but it does suggest that the plane detoured for meteorological rather than political reasons.

144 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:16:16am

“If I thought he was a white supremacist, he would be fired immediately.”

Rand can’t see the forest for the trees.

145 b.d.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:16:17am
Update: It turns out that several West-bound trans-Atlantic flights are diverting south today due to unusual turbulence over Greenland. It’s still possible that Snowden may be on board (click here for why) but it does suggest that the plane detoured for meteorological rather than political reasons.

Wahington Post

146 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:16:18am
147 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:16:48am

re: #111 lawhawk

Let me back up and say this is a tenable conclusion to make in the initial stages of an innovation, when ideas are beginning to diffuse into a system. It doesn’t hold after years and years of procedure have had their chance to knock all the cruff out of the system.

148 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:17:10am
149 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:17:12am

re: #136 darthstar

Still a felony. Apparently 2d degree felony.

Florida murder statute.

Manslaughter statute.

150 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:18:15am

re: #149 lawhawk

Thanks.

151 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:18:31am

re: #142 Targetpractice

Not sure the State’s ploy here could have been more obvious, w/ regards to springing the third degree business on the court at an hour and a half before it convened.

They should have indicated charges on the lesser includeds at the time of the indictment. That would have covered all the bases, particularly in light of the lack of evidence due to poor policing/investigating at the time of the killing.

152 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:19:37am

re: #151 lawhawk

They should have indicated charges on the lesser includeds at the time of the indictment. That would have covered all the bases, particularly in light of the lack of evidence due to poor policing/investigating at the time of the killing.

Should have, but that would have shown their hands early. Also would have given defense an opportunity to negate any suggestions of “child abuse.”

153 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:20:59am

Heh.

Kremlin returns to typewriters to avoid computer leaks

A source at Russia’s Federal Guard Service (FSO), which is in charge of safeguarding Kremlin communications and protecting President Vladimir Putin, claimed that the return to typewriters has been prompted by the publication of secret documents by WikiLeaks, the whistle-blowing website, as well as Edward Snowden, the fugitive US intelligence contractor.

The FSO is looking to spend 486,000 roubles - around £10,000 - on a number of electric typewriters, according to the site of state procurement agency, zakupki.gov.ru. The notice included ribbons for German-made Triumph Adlew TWEN 180 typewriters, although it was not clear if the typewriters themselves were this kind.

The service declined to comment on the notice, which was posted last week.

However an FSO source told Izvestiya newspaper: “After scandals with the distribution of secret documents by WikiLeaks, the exposes by Edward Snowden, reports about Dmitry Medvedev being listened in on during his visit to the G20 summit in London, it has been decided to expand the practice of creating paper documents.”

154 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:22:19am

re: #153 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

Kremlin returns to typewriters to avoid computer leaks

So much for the “paperless future.”

155 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:23:00am

Barber: ‘The First Pro-Choicer … Was Satan Himself’

On today’s “Faith and Freedom” radio program, Matt Barber and Steve Crampton were particularly disturbed by the recent incident in Texas where some protestors facetiously chanted “Hail Satan” at a rally during the special legislative session called to pass the state’s restrictive abortion bill.

While Barber saw it as evidence that “the pro-aborts are losing their minds,” Crampton felt that it accurately reflected the contrast between the two sides in this legal battle where “you have the demons from the escorts and the pro-abortion side and angels from the pro-lifers.”

And that made perfect sense to Barber, because “the first pro-choicer … was Satan himself”:

156 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:24:41am

Erik Rush: Obama Is Murdering Everyone And I Don’t Need Evidence To Prove It

Erik Rush says he is positive that President Obama and his minions are murdering people, and he doesn’t need any proof to back up his charges because requiring evidence is just a “ruse” of the “political left.” He previously wrote a column alleging that the Obama administration had a hand in the murder of a gun enthusiast, while admitting he had “no proof” besides an “inclination.”

Now, much like the debunked Clinton Body Count claims of old, the WorldNetDaily columnist asserts that Obama killed his gay lovers and drowned a woman who may have “come by information on the night of the [Aurora] shooting that wound up being detrimental to her health.” According to Rush, Obama also killed journalist Michael Hastings, an identity theft criminal, his dog trainer, Ambassador Christopher Stevens and Andrew Breitbart (of course).

Rush insists that he is simply asking questions! This is the age of FEMA camps, Rush writes, after all.

157 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:25:40am

Nope. No religious bigotry here:

158 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:26:13am
159 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:26:42am

Ah. There it is. I wondered where the garden variety bigotry was:

160 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:27:16am

re: #156 Kragar

Oh, not The Onion.

161 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:27:34am

re: #157 Lidane

Nope. No religious bigotry here:

[Embedded content]

will quoting the old testament bring back slavery and animal sacrifice?

162 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:28:19am

re: #159 Lidane

Well, for cryin’ out loud, Paul Ryan. They’re not even really human. //

163 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:28:28am

O’Reilly claims some Texas women get abortions because of hand sprains

O’Reilly added that European nations, some of which have much earlier bans on abortion, “are the most liberal countries in the world,” finding it troubling that U.S. states would seemingly be bound by Supreme Court precedent and not European law.

“In New York here, there’s a proposal, ‘I don’t want any limitations on anything!’” he said. “It’s crazy.”

Powers shot back: “The current status quo in Texas that these people are fighting for, who are fighting the bill, is to be able to abort your baby up until the third trimester.”

“Yeah!” O’Reilly jabbed. “For any reason! Women’s health! ‘Hey! Look I sprained my hand!’”

“Yeah,” Powers said. “For any reason. For any reason. Yeah.”

Neither mentioned that the vast majority of abortions already take place well before the 20th week of pregnancy, and in cases where it’s happening as late as the third trimester, it’s usually because of a severe fetal abnormality or threat to the mother’s life, and not a sprained hand as Mr. O’Reilly put it.

164 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:29:03am

Ryan: illegal aliens are “exploited Americans.”

that paul ryan??? good for him!

165 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:29:27am

re: #159 Lidane

Ah. There it is. I wondered where the garden variety bigotry was:

[Embedded content]

You can always count on Bryan to hate on:
Teh Ghey
Teh Poors
Teh Muslims
Teh Immigrants

Now, too, Teh Mormons.

I haven’t seen him hate on Teh Juice, yet, but that could come at any time.

166 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:30:30am

Randall Gross Paged an article by Josh Marshall that’s directly related to this post. Emphasis added.

[…]

It’s not for me to referee the intramural disputes within the libertarian movement. I’m sure they have no desire for me to try. But the neo-Confederates, the Lew Rockwells and that whole crew are fundamentally about white supremacy and nativism. And the Paul clan has been thick as thieves with those folks forever.

Who knows what’s in their hearts and frankly who cares? But none of this latest stuff should surprise us. And I don’t know why real libertarians waste any time making any sort of common cause with these folks. ‘Neo-Confederacy’ isn’t some outgrowth of or logical deduction from libertarianism. You’re a neo-Confederate because you believe in white supremacy. People who just can’t figure why good upstanding libertarians keep ending up finding themselves connected up with people who really don’t seem to like black people or Hispanics and believe in weird conspiracy theories about black helicopters stealing your lawn furniture really need to reread that Onion article.

167 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:30:36am
168 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:30:37am

re: #141 engineer cat

“Arator”

ploughman, i think

an archaic english word for plough is ‘ardh’

It’s a Latin word derived from arare, which means “to plow” and is the source of our word “arable”. The Old English verb ærian (also “to plow”) is cognate.

169 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:31:53am

re: #168 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

It’s a Latin word derived from arare, which means “to plow” and is the source of our word “arable”. The Old English verb ærian (also “to plow”) is cognate.

So pirates were originally farmers! ARR!

170 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:31:55am

re: #134 lawhawk

Traditionally, are these alternative, lesser charges usually made explicit earlier in the process? Are these lesser charges typically options for most juries? I guess I’m asking how unusual this is.

171 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:31:56am

re: #168 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

It’s a Latin word derived from arare, which means “to plow” and is the source of our word “arable”. The Old English verb ærian (also “to plow”) is cognate.

Specifically in this case:

The title is taken from an 1813 book by a Virginia planter and senator named John Taylor, who defended “the socioeconomic and political order of an agrarian republic,” according to one description.

172 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:32:04am

re: #167 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Seems to be a popular tactic of the GOP lately, threaten something that’s no different from what’s already being done.

173 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:33:34am

State getting ready to make first part of its closing argument in the Zimmerman case. Bernie De La Rionda will be the man walking the boards.

174 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:34:36am

Poor Eddie. He knows if he makes his mind up people are going to say things.

175 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:34:37am

re: #163 Kragar

I see the less-government wingnuts are limbering up for when they eventually regain the WH and both houses of Congress when they will be freer to push more less-government on us.

176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:35:14am

re: #171 wrenchwench

Specifically in this case:

Those were the days when you could give your book a title in Latin and expect your audience to understand it.

177 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:35:24am
178 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:36:05am
179 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:36:29am

re: #177 Lidane

Beat me by thirty seconds!

180 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:37:23am

re: #163 Kragar

Powers shot back: “The current status quo in Texas that these people are fighting for, who are fighting the bill, is to be able to abort your baby up until the third trimester.”

So, all this time I was under the impression Texas has been the Fountainhead of conservative luvjeebus Christian enlightenment between leftists coastal enclaves of fifth columnists and now I find out Texas has been nothing but an all-out orgy of babee killing, all during the W Bush and first 25 years of Perry’s rule. //

181 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:37:40am

re: #170 Bulworth

It’s going to depend on the policies and practices of the courts, and the lawyers. Some of it is strategy - don’t overload the jury with too many counts versus making sure that you get a guilty verdict on something significant.

182 geoffm33  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:37:54am
183 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:38:14am

re: #168 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

It’s a Latin word derived from arare, which means “to plow” and is the source of our word “arable”. The Old English verb ærian (also “to plow”) is cognate.

this seems to be the indo-european root for plough - according to the online etymology, our word “plough” seems to be common germanic only, possibly pre-indo-european substrate, since no indo-european roots are given

184 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:39:48am
185 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:40:29am

re: #174 darthstar

Poor Eddie. He knows if he makes his mind up people are going to say things.

[Embedded content]

Does Snowden even know that Venezuela has offered him asylum? He does not seem to have access to Teh Internets or to any communication with the outside world.

186 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:40:39am
187 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:41:15am

re: #185 Vicious Babushka

Does Snowden even know that Venezuela has offered him asylum? He does not seem to have access to Teh Internets or to any communication with the outside world.

He IMs with Glenn Greenwald every day. So I’m sure he knows how popular he is.

188 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:41:31am

re: #185 Vicious Babushka

He stays off the Internets because everyone’s tracking him even with the towels stuffed in the doors.

189 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:43:44am

re: #182 geoffm33

The explosion happened in Chinatown. Looks like at least 6 injured and a partial building collapse.

My guess? Gas explosion.

190 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:46:14am

re: #176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Those were the days when you could give your book a title in Latin and expect your audience to understand it.

You’re just another apologist pining for the old days of traditional southern culture!!!!

////////////////

191 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:46:53am
192 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:47:20am

Tilda Swinton is awesome:


Holding the pride flag like that can get you thrown in jail in Russia, even if you’re a tourist.

193 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:47:40am

Closing arguments:

State: “Good afternoon.”
Defense: “Objection!”

194 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:48:09am

re: #186 darthstar

It’s the same thing that happened with the FAA sequestration. The moment it affected Congress when they were trying to get out of town for recess, they moved to exempt it from the sequester rules.

Congress, and the House GOP in particular, failed to act to target the cuts in a way that would not damage significant portions of the economy and endanger the health safety and welfare of Americans. Instead, they are standing idly by while the cuts put the brakes on the economy and more than a few GOPers are happy about the cuts because they want to do even more - and if government fails, they can point to the failures as a sign that they need even more cuts.

195 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:49:09am

re: #144 Kragar

“If I thought he was a white supremacist, he would be fired immediately.”

Rand can’t see the forest for the trees.

The problem is Rand’s definition of “white supremacist” is very different from yours.

196 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:50:24am
197 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:51:34am
198 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:53:48am

re: #196 Kragar

Ouch. And if Sarah runs we can get more of these every day. Please proceed, GOP.

199 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:54:00am

Cue the ZOMG CHICAGO THUG bleating from the nutters:

200 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:55:12am
201 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:55:16am

re: #199 Lidane

I look forward to the reason-based comments from the usual suspects of
“race-realists”. /

202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57:11am

re: #199 Lidane

Jay-Z is one of the most successful businessmen in the US today. I think he’s also not a nice person, but he grew up in the projects and has half a billion dollars and a huge media empire. He is a rags-to-riches story.

203 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:58:10am
204 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:59:47am

Someone’s gonna need a better hiding place for treats.

Image: 970755_460091770689735_38591793_n.jpg

205 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:59:49am

re: #203 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

A company legally complying with government requests? HORROR!

206 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:59:52am

re: #203 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

REVEALED!!!

207 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:00:12am

re: #206 Gus

REVEALED!!!

CONFIRMED. FACT.

208 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:00:18am

re: #76 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

This bit is absolutely true, though a real free market would also be horrific. But corporatism is the biggest current problem we’ve got, absolutely. And the founding fathers foresaw it, too.

Greed and self-interest are forces of nature. And like any other force of nature, they need to be contained and channeled so they are beneficial for everyone, just as flowing water can power a turbine or irrigate a field, it can also wipe out entire cities.

And unchanneled greed can be just as destructive.

209 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:00:32am

News in Brief: The solar system has a tail

The solar system drags along a lengthy, twisted tail as it moves through the galaxy, researchers announced July 10 in a press conference and in the Astrophysical Journal.

Scientists had always presumed that a tail existed, said Eric Christian, an astronomer at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. “But this is the first time we have data that tells us about the tail.”

The discovery comes from data gathered by the Interstellar Boundary Explorer, or IBEX, a satellite launched in 2008. It charts the trajectories of speedy atoms that originate in the outskirts of the solar system before getting an inward kick from collisions with charged particles from the sun. The distribution of those atoms helps scientists map the boundaries of the heliosphere, the bubble that contains the planets and other material in the solar system and is inflated by particles continually jetting out from the sun.

A cross section of the tail resembles a four-leaf clover, with two clumps of slow-moving solar particles and two of high-speed particles. The data also reveal that the clover shape is flattened and twisted by galactic magnetic fields acting on the sun as it whizzes through the Milky Way at around 84,000 kilometers per hour - the same magnetic fields that cause ribbons of charged particles to wrap around the edge of the heliosphere (SN 11/21/09, p. 15).

The IBEX team could not determine the exact length of the tail, said principal investigator David McComas of Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, but estimated it at 150 billion kilometers, or 1,000 times the distance between Earth and the sun. The team plans to see whether the tail’s shape changes as the sun’s activity wanes.

Science!

210 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:01:58am

Also, according to the googles…

Arator was a sixth-century Christian poet from Liguria in northwestern Italy. His best known work, De Actibus Apostolorum, is a verse history of the Apostles.

and in WOW:

Arator the Redeemer (or Arator Windrunner) is the half-elven son of the high elven ranger Alleria Windrunner and the human paladin Turalyon. He can be found in Honor Hold in Outland’s Hellfire Peninsula.

popular name, apparently, is Arator…

211 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:02:05am

re: #206 Gus

REVEALED!!!

Greenwald is like the clown at a 5 year old’s birthday show. The kids love it, but the grown ups are just tired of the stupid shit.

212 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:02:15am

re: #208 Sol Berdinowitz

But the point I’m trying to make is that they aren’t forces like the wind and the water. They’re organic forces, they evolve to game any static system, and so we need ‘evolutionary’ regulations.

213 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:02:22am

re: #203 Vicious Babushka

Yawn.

214 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:03:51am

Bullet points…

• Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;

• The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;

• The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;

• Microsoft also worked with the FBI’s Data Intercept Unit to “understand” potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

• Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;

• Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a “team sport”.

215 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:05:05am

re: #214 Gus

Bullet points…

Hotmail. HotFREAKINGMail? That was totally overrun by Spammers in 2002.

216 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:05:11am

re: #214 Gus

For more incredible vagueness, stay tuned.

217 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:05:12am

Hotmail

218 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:05:56am

re: #203 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

219 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:06:14am

Microsoft also worked with the FBI’s Data Intercept Unit to “understand” potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

Derp.

220 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:06:38am
221 piratedan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:06:42am

re: #79 EmmaAnne

Not “an enemy of Lincoln” either. I am fully reassured.

/

you always shoot, the ones you love////

222 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:07:14am
223 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:08:00am

re: #215 Vicious Babushka

Hotmail. HotFREAKINGMail? That was totally overrun by Spammers in 2002.

Obvious proof we are seriously spying on Nigerian princes…

224 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:08:12am
225 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:09:30am

Standard anti Greenwald Boilerplate should be:

“We are proud of our companies record of assisting authorities engaged in investigating security threats to America and its allies and look forward to continuing this tradition in the future. We ask why certain parties hate America so much they do not want it defended?”

226 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:12:08am

re: #219 Gus

I think you might be able to use these at some point.

227 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:12:33am

Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;

Of whom?

What were the details?

Was it under a warrant?

Did it involve terrorist activities?

Was this a foreign or domestic case?

228 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:12:59am

re: #227 Gus

Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;

Of whom?

What were the details?

Was it under a warrant?

Did it involve terrorist activities?

Was this a foreign or domestic case?

Yes.
/

229 twisty  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:13:15am

re: #224 Lidane

This PROVES we’re being charged too many taxes!! in 3… 2… 1

230 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:13:18am

re: #227 Gus

Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;

Of whom?

What were the details?

Was it under a warrant?

Did it involve terrorist activities?

Was this a foreign or domestic case?

231 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:13:29am
232 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:13:43am

re: #226 wrenchwench

I think you might be able to use these at some point.

I’ll have to check some other time. On the grappy 4G with 1.6GB remaining for 7 days. :|

233 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:14:05am

Gaffney: Immigration Reform a Communist Plot to Destroy GOP, Help Terrorists

Gaffney argues that immigration reform is a “product of decades of work by communists determined to consign the GOP to permanent minority status incapable of halting the further radical transformation of America.” He cites a piece by Trevor Loudon, who claims that several California politicians are tied to a “secret communist” immigration activist and the Democratic Socialists of America.

FACT!
/

234 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:14:55am

re: #227 Gus

Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;

Of whom?

What were the details?

Was it under a warrant?

Did it involve terrorist activities?

Was this a foreign or domestic case?

Sometimes …not wittingly.

235 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:14:56am

“Argentine prosecutors Alberto Nisman and Marcelo Martínez Burgos formally accused the government of Iran of directing the bombing, and the Hezbollah militia of carrying it out.”
en.wikipedia.org

Glenn Greenwald remains unaffected.

236 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:17:03am
237 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:17:15am

re: #232 Gus

I’ll have to check some other time. On the grappy 4G with 1.6GB remaining for 7 days. :|

Here’s a single one:

Image: screen%20shot%202013-07-08%20at%2012.22.18%20pm.png

238 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:18:58am

Pat Robertson urges LGBT people to ‘come out’ as straight

Appearing on “The 700 Club” Thursday, television preacher and former Republican presidential candidate Pat Robertson assured his viewers that gay people are not really gay, they’re just confused due to “chromosomal damage” they suffered as children, and urged his LGBT viewers to “come out” as straight people.

Christian people, I understand you’re not really Christian. You’re just confused due to brain damage from years of abuse. Its okay, you can come out as sane.
///

239 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:19:16am

re: #237 wrenchwench

Here’s a single one:

Image: screen%20shot%202013-07-08%20at%2012.22.18%20pm.png

Tanks.

240 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:19:24am
241 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:20:23am

OK. Time for lunch. There’s a ramen shop near here I’m jonesing for.

BBL

242 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:20:48am

re: #238 Kragar

Pat Robertson urges LGBT people to ‘come out’ as straight

Christian people, I understand you’re not really Christian. You’re just confused due to brain damage from years of abuse. Its okay, you can come out as sane.
///

The problem is that snippet assumes he HAS LGBT viewers.

243 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:22:28am

re: #242 Eclectic Cyborg

The problem is that snippet assumes he HAS LGBT viewers.

Got to figure some watch it for the comedy value.

244 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:22:58am

re: #241 Lidane

OK. Time for lunch. There’s a ramen shop near here I’m jonesing for.

BBL

Fuck.

Now I want ramen.

245 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:23:52am

Greenwald is systematically trying to destroy Americans’ trust in every institution of American society.

246 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:24:32am
247 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:26:34am

re: #242 Eclectic Cyborg

The problem is that snippet assumes he HAS LGBT viewers.

I’m sure he’s got quite a few tortured closet cases. I mean, Ted Haggard can’t be the only one.

248 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:26:56am

re: #245 Charles Johnson

Greenwald is systematically trying to destroy Americans’ trust in every institution of American society.

No wonder the wingnuts love him so much these days.

249 piratedan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:27:32am

re: #245 Charles Johnson

Greenwald is systematically trying to destroy Americans’ trust in every institution of American society.

then we can finally achieve Libertarian Paradise, you know, the one where the folks with the money and the guns make the rules (as if that isn’t already in force, but hey)

250 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:29:00am

re: #245 Charles Johnson

Greenwald is systematically trying to destroy Americans’ trust in every institution of American society.

Carrying on the fine traditions of William Joyce and Tokyo Rose.

251 geoffm33  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:29:34am

apropos of nothing

Image: mrnoodle.jpg

252 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:30:36am

DERP

253 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:32:46am
254 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:33:30am

re: #252 Vicious Babushka

DERP

[Embedded content]

Or, from another perspective:


255 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:36:30am

re: #245 Charles Johnson

But we’ve got to destroy it in order to save it. /

256 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:37:10am

DERP

257 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:37:32am

The State just postulated a new possibility in his own closing argument, that Zimmerman already had gun out when Good arrived and what he observed was Martin trying to prevent himself from being shot.

I hate to bring this up, Bernie, but you’re supposed to squashing doubt, not introducing more of it for the defense to capitalize on.

258 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:37:39am

re: #255 lawhawk

But we’ve got to destroy it in order to save it. /

“The crime is life…”
-Judge Death

259 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:38:49am
260 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:39:01am
261 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:39:04am

re: #126 wrenchwench

Such bullshit! I was a kid when everything was “colored” and segregated, esp in the south, during the 40s and 50s. But the parochial schools I attended in Buffalo NY in the 50s were segregated, too, as were neighborhoods. A little white kid who didn’t understand how some “nice southern gentlemen” or “southern belle” with impeccable courteous ways and the saccharine, superficial “charm” that came with it could treat other human beings in such fashion. And also couldn’t understand why such an influential church, which taught about “God’s love” could separate people in such a way, either. Singing a song like “Jesus Loves the Little Children” was heartfelt by the kids, but we were getting different messages about those that were “black and yellow, red and white”. I learned about hypocrisy early on.

A lot of poor white kids played with Black kids and thought nothing of it, even if we did go to segregated schools and they couldn’t drink from the same public fountains and go to the same bathrooms. Nevertheless, it was also a class issue since the only Black people you ever saw in better off neighborhoods were maids and yard men, so it was pretty easy to figure out that rich people also controlled the institutions that tried to steer my thinking and that of the adults in my life, and of everyone else, toward segregating the races. Sure, Black folks could go in certain stores and spend their money there, but it was a limited shopping experience. Just as today, if it was a “better” store (back then, a dept store), if you were Black you were watched. It was all about the money and judging, never about a fair and equal market exchange. Even in Key West, FL in 1958, my CA-born husband-to-be discovered that a Black shipmate couldn’t go with him to the same movie theater. He was appalled.

I never bought into the “white superiority” bullshit because I knew that the people in my own family and others I knew were flawed human beings who couldn’t teach me anything about such practices being moral or humane. Not that they didn’t try to make me like them. Now, because I’ve been a liberal progressive all my life, I have virtually no contact with any of them (a lot have died off, but the breaches were made years ago). I am considered a “black sheep” atheist who is going straight to hell by those remaining.

262 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:40:10am

re: #259 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

So in other words, he’s got nothing.

263 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:41:30am

Thrashing

264 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:42:15am
265 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:42:29am

re: #263 Vicious Babushka

Thrashing

[Embedded content]

What? All of a sudden, Greenwald has qualms about publishing internal NSA material?

266 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:42:42am

re: #259 Vicious Babushka

So we’ve got to trust him at his word to quote the relevant parts? Right.

As if his judgment can’t be … um… what’s the word I’m looking for…Wrong.

I don’t trust him or anyone else when they say “trust me” when it comes to this stuff based on documents that have yet to be published. And when he’s released other stuff it’s turned into nothing burgers and reveal that he really doesn’t understand the underlying tech involved.

267 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:43:31am
268 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:44:35am
269 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:44:58am

re: #266 lawhawk

So we’ve got to trust him at his word to quote the relevant parts? Right.

As if his judgment can’t be … um… what’s the word I’m looking for…Wrong.

I don’t trust him or anyone else when they say “trust me” when it comes to this stuff based on documents that have yet to be published. And when he’s released other stuff it’s turned into nothing burgers and reveal that he really doesn’t understand the underlying tech involved.

On what grounds are we supposed to find Greenwald trustworthy, because for the life of me, I can’t think of one single example?

270 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:46:11am

re: #268 lawhawk

Uh oh, that’s it. Expect to be blocked soon.

271 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:47:15am
272 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:48:43am

One of my mom’s earliest lessons to me was “Never trust a man when he says ‘trust me’.”

273 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:50:26am

re: #270 Charles Johnson

Thing is, he’s got such a thin skin, that blocking sounds about right. And I got that response based on this:


As a lawyer, Greenwald knows to go to primary sources first, and only rely on secondary and tertiary sources if the primary source is unavailable.

Here, he’s saying that he’s summarized it and we have to go with his opinion and relevant quotes.

That doesn’t cut it for me, and it shouldn’t for anyone else. If it’s as he claims, then he shouldn’t have a problem releasing the rest of these documents if they actually claim what he says they do - as a journalist/activist.

274 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:52:41am
About primary docs: the “document” for the Microsoft story is an internal, ongoing NSA bulletin over 3 years - we quoted all relevant parts

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) July 11, 2013

Let me make sure I understand this, this is supposed to assure us of his credibility?

Would Glenn be so accepting if That One said we should be assured of the truth of his statements because he “quoted all relevant parts”? (Spoiler: He wouldn’t.)

275 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:53:29am
276 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 11:56:42am

re: #194 lawhawk

if government fails, they can point to the failures as a sign that they need even more cuts.

We had to destroy America in order to save it!

277 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:01:29pm

GOHMERT!

Gohmert repeatedly shouts ‘Objection!’ to silence claims food stamp cuts hurt hungry families

Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) on Thursday objected over and over again in order to keep statements out of the congressional record that accused Republicans of hurting working families by taking food stamps out of the farm bill.

Before a vote could be taken on the Republican farm bill that drops the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) — or food stamps — Democrats attempted to voice their unhappiness by inserting statements into the record.

“Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks in strong opposition to the farm bill rule and the underlying bill because it will increase hunger in America,” Rep. Suzanne Bonamici (D-OR) said.

Although requests to “revise and extend” remarks are routine, Gohmert immediate shouted, “Objection!”

Rep. Joe Kennedy (D-IL) next asked permission to “revise and extend” his remarks in opposition to the farm bill “because it takes food nutrition away from working families.”

“Objection!” Gohmert yelled.

278 geoffm33  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:03:39pm
Matt Brown, a former Norwood High School hockey player, was paralyzed from the waist down back in 2010, and his journey has been well documented. Along the way, he struck up a friendship with Ference, with the Boston blue liner even bringing the Stanley Cup to a Labor Day dinner with Brown and his family.

So it only made sense that Brown would end up with one of the Bruins’ most notable trinkets, especially at the end of Ference’s time in Boston. Throughout the 2013 Stanley Cup playoffs, the B’s handed out an Army Rangers jacket to the player of the game in each win. Ference had gotten the jacket, and he was the one who ultimately gave it away one last time. On Thursday, he visited Brown and delivered the jacket to Brown.

Read more at: nesn.com

279 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:05:38pm

re: #277 Kragar

What a sexy, pro-family conservative he is…

//

280 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:06:51pm

re: #279 Bulworth

What a sexy, pro-family conservative he is…

//

OBJECTION!

281 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:06:58pm

re: #277 Kragar

Democracy. Transparency. Freedom. /

282 geoffm33  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:07:11pm

re: #278 geoffm33

And here is Andrew Ference’s tweet to Matt Brown:

283 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:07:26pm

re: #277 Kragar

What a pig.

284 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:07:47pm

So Democratic members of the House aren’t allowed to speak anymore?

285 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:09:01pm

re: #284 Bulworth

Well, he is from Texas…..

286 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:10:49pm

Found something suitable for Gohmert…

binkies

287 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:11:49pm

re: #286 Backwoods_Sleuth

Found something suitable for Gohmert…

binkies

I was thinking ballgag.

288 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:13:04pm

re: #287 Kragar

I was thinking ballgag.

Should be an easy modification…

289 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:14:25pm

re: #288 Backwoods_Sleuth

Should be an easy modification…

GOHMERPH!

290 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:14:38pm

Maybe he is grumpy from suffering from a case of Gohmert piles…

291 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:15:32pm

This afternoon’s Zimmerman trial agitation email from Fox News:
Image: Screen_shot_2013-07-11_at_2.14.14_PM.png

292 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:20:29pm
293 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:21:01pm

re: #291 jaunte

Explosive Allegations!!!!

Hey, we don’t know if they’re true or not. We’re just putting it out there. /

294 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:21:23pm

re: #292 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

You forgot to take into account that Rand Paul is a two-faced lying sack of shit.

295 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:25:10pm

re: #293 Bulworth

Explosive Allegations!!!!

Hey, we don’t know if they’re true or not. We’re just putting it out there. /

“Some people are saying…”

Name one.

296 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:25:19pm

re: #292 Vicious Babushka


BUT HE VOTED AGAINST DISCRIMINATION AGAINST CHRISTIANS!!!!

297 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:27:05pm

re: #291 jaunte

And that comes down to the fact that the DOJ has a Community Relations Service (fixed) team that is supposed to help deal with peacefully diffusing racial tensions - such as those sparked by the Martin killing.

But the nutters make the leap from having security at protests to active support.

298 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:28:43pm

re: #291 jaunte

This afternoon’s Zimmerman trial agitation email from Fox News:
Image: Screen_shot_2013-07-11_at_2.14.14_PM.png

Yeah, that’s been making the rounds.

I am not sure of anything, but since this is making right wing rounds, I tried to find the source.

This is what they are saying:

- CRS employee spent $1,142.84 to travel to Sanford, Florida from March 25-28, 2012 “to work marches, demonstrations, and rallies”;

- CRS employee spent $751.60 to travel to Sanford, Florida from March 30-April 1, 2012 “to provide technical assistance to the City of Sanford, event organizers, and law enforcement agencies for the march and rally on March 31”;

- CRS employee spent $1,307.40 to travel to Sanford, Florida from April 3-12, 2012 “to provide technical assistance, conciliation, and onsite mediation during demonstrations planned in Sanford”;

- CRS employee spent $672.24 to travel to Tampa, Florida from April 18-20, 2012 “to meet with RNC official related to possible protests and demonstrations during the RNC”

This is the Orlando Sentinel report.

Another original article.

I am not going to link to the right wing blogs. Use Google should you choose.

So, what do you think?

299 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:30:53pm
300 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:32:10pm

re: #298 Joanne

They’re their in order to prevent problems, not to support the people. It’s like saying the police present to keep things calm when the Westborough Baptists are protesting are there to support them.

301 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:32:48pm

re: #298 Joanne

Yeah, that’s been making the rounds.

I am not sure of anything, but since this is making right wing rounds, I tried to find the source.

This is what they are saying:

This is the Orlando Sentinel report.

Another original article.

I am not going to link to the right wing blogs. Use Google should you choose.

So, what do you think?

That the right wingers are unsubtly wanting NO police presence so they can beat up anybody they disagree with.

302 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:33:18pm

No, The Department Of Justice Did Not Organize Trayvon Martin Rallies

The conservative group Judicial Watch published records that show the Community Relations Service, a civil rights unit of the DOJ, helped with security for the rallies. Conservative groups have interpreted those records to mean there was wrongdoing; the Heritage Foundation has gone so far as to demand an oversight hearing for the Community Relations Service’s “potentially unethical involvement.” Fox News, Daily Caller, and other conservative media have taken up the same spin. CNN picked up the report, as well.

But the same documents show nothing inflammatory about the DOJ involvement, which was limited to ensuring security for the protests.

303 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:33:52pm


Derp.

304 Stanley Sea  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:34:48pm

re: #300 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

They’re their in order to prevent problems, not to support the people. It’s like saying the police present to keep things calm when the Westborough Baptists are protesting are there to support them.

Yeah.

But Fox instigates and the RW responds.

305 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:36:17pm

re: #303 Gus

[Embedded content]


Derp.

White supremacists, whose party affiliation has shifted over the decades.

Thanks for playing.

306 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:36:41pm

re: #303 Gus

LOL whitesplaining.

307 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:37:27pm

re: #298 Joanne
From the Orlando Sentinel:

The peacekeepers have a specific mandate outlined in the 1964 Civil Rights Act to go into conflict zones within American communities that perceive discrimination or feel wronged because of their particular race, color or national origin.

Seems like a money-saving idea to keep people even-tempered and connected to the political process.

308 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:37:48pm

re: #306 Lidane

LOL whitesplaining.

What would a black woman know about the KKK and the history of abortion?
///

309 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:39:01pm


Obama is so promiscuous he’s been married to the same woman since 1992.

310 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:39:39pm

re: #303 Gus

There’s that stone-stupid historical zombie Democrats argument again.

311 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:39:53pm

re: #309 Lidane

[Embedded content]


Obama is so promiscuous he’s been married to the same woman since 1992.

Anyway, I thought that when he cheated it was with a guy. At least that’s what I’ve been told.

///

312 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:40:25pm
313 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:41:04pm

re: #309 Lidane

[Embedded content]


Obama is so promiscuous he’s been married to the same woman since 1992.

He should talk to Gingrich or Sanford about that.

314 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:41:04pm
315 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:41:35pm

re: #309 Lidane

Obama was married in 1992. Clinton was elected in 1992. Obviously related.

/Bryan Fischer

316 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:41:35pm

re: #303 Gus

Oh, you mean the ex-Confederates who started the KKK?

317 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:43:01pm

re: #312 Lidane

[Embedded content]

The fact the percentage of “missing voters” carried across all minorities, and they can’t assume that only the white people will magically return and start voting for them again.

318 jaunte  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:44:03pm
319 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:44:13pm

Because health insurance should never, ever cover doctor visits. Ever.

WTF is wrong with these people?

320 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:45:08pm

re: #319 Lidane

Man of the People. /

321 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:45:20pm

re: #318 jaunte

[Embedded content]

And it will be vetoed.

322 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:46:17pm

re: #303 Gus

Oh, that should go over well. ABL doesn’t take any bullshit at all.

323 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:46:20pm

re: #319 Lidane

It’s not enough to oppose and repeal Obamacare anymore. Preventative health care provided by private insurance companies must now be exterminated. Freedom.

324 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:46:28pm

re: #318 jaunte

325 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:47:15pm

re: #321 Kragar

Won’t get that far. Senate.

326 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:48:19pm

re: #325 Bulworth

Won’t get that far. Senate.

Senate already passed farm bill, but it included SNAP. Now we see if GOP insists there be a conference committee to reconcile the bills or insists Senate pass House farm bill with all due haste.

327 geoffm33  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:48:19pm

re: #322 Joanne

Oh, that should go over well. ABL doesn’t take any bullshit at all.

She just laughed it off. It was too absurd to require warrant a response.

328 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:49:26pm

re: #314 jaunte

[Embedded content]

On air at Fox? Oh, without a doubt!

329 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:49:54pm

re: #319 Lidane

If these GOP jackasses were actually fiscally responsible, they’d be in favor of covering routine/preventative medical care, since it is a money saver.

But they don’t actually care about any of that. The GOP base demands viciousness these days, so they deliver.

Not incidentally at all, there is more profit in dealing with emergencies caused or worsened by lack of routine care than there is in preventing some of these emergencies with routine care.

330 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:50:14pm

re: #326 Targetpractice

Is this an annual spending bill for the Ag department or is it the once-every-five-years-or-so Farm Bill, which deals with subsidies and so forth?

331 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:50:17pm

re: #319 Lidane

He’s trying to claim that insurance should be for catastrophic ailments, not routine care (along with the claim that routine check ups are just like oil changes).

Except he ignores that routine health care can stave off catastrophic ailments.

Car insurance doesn’t help you when your transmission goes out. Cars have warranties too - but if that transmission goes out after warranty, you’ve either got to get a new car, or pony up to fix it.

Just as a remind to Ken, humans don’t have warranties, and we can’t simply trade in for a new one when the old one gets injured or suffers a serious injury.

But since Ken keeps repeating these idiotic talking points, maybe someone should check his brain pan to see if it’s got a leak. A CAT scan even. Because he’s not quite right in the head.

332 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:50:21pm

re: #314 jaunte

They’ll probably send Megyn Kelly into the production studio to find out what went wrong, and if Zimmerman was really convicted.

333 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:50:34pm

re: #330 Bulworth

Is this an annual spending bill for the Ag department or is it the once-every-five-years-or-so Farm Bill, which deals with subsidies and so forth?

Do believe it’s the latter.

334 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:52:07pm

re: #331 lawhawk

He’s trying to claim that insurance should be for catastrophic ailments, not routine care (along with the claim that routine check ups are just like oil changes).

Except he ignores that routine health care can stave off catastrophic ailments.

Car insurance doesn’t help you when your transmission goes out. Cars have warranties too - but if that transmission goes out after warranty, you’ve either got to get a new car, or pony up to fix it.

Just as a remind to Ken, humans don’t have warranties, and we can’t simply trade in for a new one when the old one gets injured or suffers a serious injury.

But since Ken keeps repeating these idiotic talking points, maybe someone should check his brain pan to see if it’s got a leak. A CAT scan even. Because he’s not quite right in the head.

And if Cucci thinks that car insurance companies won’t drop your ass at the first major accident, then he’s fooling himself. Had a friend who had been with GEICO for years, had a great driving record. Gets in one fender-bender and the first letter they send to him is “Your policy has been cancelled.”

335 Ian G.  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:52:08pm

re: #329 EPR-radar

If these GOP jackasses were actually fiscally responsible, they’d be in favor of covering routine/preventative medical care, since it is a money saver.

You can’t put a price on FREEDOM!!!1

336 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:52:33pm
337 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:52:54pm

re: #333 Targetpractice

That’s what I thought.

I was wondering if food stamp legislation passes every year or if it’s an entitlement (benefits awarded by need as long as conditions met, etc). I think it’s the latter and that this Farm Bill changes the rules of eligibility.

338 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:54:33pm

re: #336 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Anyone with an R after their name.

339 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:55:29pm
340 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:55:54pm

re: #337 Bulworth

But Dems talking as if food stamps aren’t in the Farm Bill then they need to be passed separately, which suggests not entitlement, thus requiring a funding authorization/appropriation.

341 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:57:20pm

The closing arguments in the Zimmerman trial are riveting. Shades of OJ. I can’t turn away..All the networks are muting the bad words. I hate that..It’s fucking cable news.. It’s OK if we hear the bad words.. I want to hear it all..Damn it!
Hi ya Lizards!

342 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 12:59:09pm

OJ is right, but it seems more like Cochrane’s closing. Apparently it’s now the Chewbacca prosecution: “None of this makes sense, so you must convict!”

343 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:00:11pm

re: #341 HoosierHoops

Watching Bernie de la Rionda (prosecutor) skipping through the courtroom…too funny.

And yes, he is doing a good job of showing inconsistencies.

344 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:02:08pm

OUTRAGE!

345 chadu  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:03:06pm

re: #302 Kragar

The RWNJs are simply not afraid to outright lie, cheat, and steal anymore.

346 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:04:39pm
347 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:04:56pm

re: #345 chadu

The RWNJs are simply not afraid to outright lie, cheat, and steal anymore.

Youtube Video

348 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:05:21pm

re: #345 chadu

The RWNJs are simply not afraid to outright lie, cheat, and steal anymore.

Well, sure. No one calls them on it. Must. Have. Balance.

349 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:05:28pm

re: #346 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Inconceivable!!!

350 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:05:32pm

re: #345 chadu

anymore? When were they?

351 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:05:55pm
352 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:07:24pm

Rand Paul has nothing to gain from firing this secessionist jerk, and a lot to lose for admitting an error in judgement.

The bubble-wrap machine is out there to cushion this gaffe, one that would have torpedoed most any politician even 20 years ago.

It shows what a clown show our political discourse has become.

353 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:07:33pm

Prosecution’s closing arguments have been pretty good so far…just asked sarcastically how Zimmerman’s gun hidden behind his back could be visible if Trayvon was sitting on his chest with his knees in his armpits.

354 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:08:46pm

re: #345 chadu

The RWNJs are simply not afraid to outright lie, cheat, and steal anymore.

By the time you are white-washing the Confederacy, nothing is off the table.

Even in view of world history since 1865, the cause of the Confederacy remains one of the worst that has ever been fought for.

355 chadu  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:09:18pm

re: #350 Internet Tough Guy

anymore? When were they?

I mean openly, bald-faced, without even an plausibly deniable rationale.

356 Lidane  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:09:18pm
357 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:09:24pm

re: #353 darthstar

Prosecution’s closing arguments have been pretty good so far…just asked sarcastically how Zimmerman’s gun hidden behind his back could be visible if Trayvon was sitting on his chest with his knees in his armpits.

I will still be suprised if he does not walk, the odds are stacked in his favor. The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable dowbt and between SYG and the way the police handled the case, there was not enough physical evidence to banish reasonable doubt.

The lesson of SYG: leave no living witnesses.

358 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:09:45pm

re: #319 Lidane

That’s probably because someone else is paying for his. Like Star Scientific?

359 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:10:21pm
360 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:10:23pm

re: #357 Sol Berdinowitz

I will still be suprised if he does not walk, the odds are stacked in his favor. The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable dowbt and between SYG and the way the police handled the case, there was not enough physical evidence to banish reasonable doubt.

The lesson of SYG: leave no living witnesses.

Pretty much. What I’m watching right now is the last desperate thrashing of the State’s case.

362 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:11:02pm
363 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:11:49pm
364 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:12:45pm

re: #353 darthstar

Prosecution’s closing arguments have been pretty good so far…just asked sarcastically how Zimmerman’s gun hidden behind his back could be visible if Trayvon was sitting on his chest with his knees in his armpits.

I’m not sure about this case..It is not clear whom is at fault so far. I think we are looking at a hung jury.
Don’t forget: This is Florida, Anything can happen and it won’t surprise me at all.

365 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:13:15pm
366 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:13:32pm

re: #364 HoosierHoops

I’m not sure about this case..It is not clear whom is at fault so far. I think we are looking at a hung jury.
Don’t forget: This is Florida, Anything can happen and it won’t surprise me at all.

My guesses in order of odds are:

Acquittal
Manslaughter
Hung jury
Murder 2

367 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:14:30pm

re: #357 Sol Berdinowitz

I will still be suprised if he does not walk, the odds are stacked in his favor. The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable dowbt and between SYG and the way the police handled the case, there was not enough physical evidence to banish reasonable doubt.

The lesson of SYG: leave no living witnesses.

Assuming no real eyewitness testimony, and a fatal shooting from the front at short range, how can there be a prosecution theory of invalid self defense that is proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

What is clear in the Zimmerman case is that he deliberately went looking for trouble while armed, and ended up killing Trayvon Martin. If this fact pattern doesn’t end up with at least a manslaughter conviction, the system is broken worse than I thought.

368 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:15:14pm

re: #362 Gus

[Embedded content]

Really? Keith has never been in a fight..All that shit can happen in 3 seconds..

369 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:15:58pm
370 Internet Tough Guy  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:16:12pm

re: #366 Targetpractice

I’d flip hung jury and manslaughter. I suspect at least one juror is going to hold out for acquittal regardless.

371 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:17:13pm

re: #370 Internet Tough Guy

I’d flip hung jury and manslaughter. I suspect at least one juror is going to hold out for acquittal regardless.

Good point.

372 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:18:07pm

re: #365 darthstar

Travyon as Durga.

373 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:18:08pm

re: #370 Internet Tough Guy

I’d flip hung jury and manslaughter. I suspect at least one juror is going to hold out for acquittal regardless.

Yup..Closing now.

374 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:19:12pm

re: #372 lawhawk

What did you think of the closing arguments, if you heard them?

375 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:20:11pm

S&P 500 [and Dow] Rises to Record Close as Bernanke Backs Stimulus bloomberg.com

Well, someone is making plenty of money. It ain’t me, babe.

376 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:22:14pm

re: #374 Joanne

What did you think of the closing arguments, if you heard them?

I’ve been listening. I think it’s been a pretty good closing. Tomorrow’s defense closing will be interesting, as they’ll have to make Zimmerman out to be a pathetic pussy who was scared of an evil black enemy combatant on a mission to do bad.

377 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:22:49pm

Apparently two jurors had the same “chin resting in hand” gesture going on by the end of Bernie’s closing and another, the Hispanic nurse, wouldn’t make eye contact with him.

Hung jury might very well be what we’re looking at.

379 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:23:50pm

re: #375 Justanotherhuman

I had an excellent day in the market considering how little I actually have invested over all. Watched my IRA go up over 1% today which is huge considering my limited holdings.

380 Mike Lamb  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:24:13pm

re: #357 Sol Berdinowitz

I will still be suprised if he does not walk, the odds are stacked in his favor. The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable dowbt and between SYG and the way the police handled the case, there was not enough physical evidence to banish reasonable doubt.

The lesson of SYG: leave no living witnesses.

This isn’t a SYG case. Zimmerman dropped that as a defense.

381 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:24:48pm

And in more economic news…

U.S. posts $117 billion June budget surplus
U.S. on track for lowest full-year deficit in five years
marketwatch.com

“Both the Obama administration and the Congressional Budget Office are expecting the government to record a deficit of below $1 trillion for the first time since 2008. In 2009, the year President Barack Obama took office, the U.S. posted a record $1.4 trillion deficit as the country struggled with the recession. Budget gaps since then have narrowed as the economy has gradually improved.”

382 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:25:43pm

re: #381 Justanotherhuman

And in more economic news…

U.S. posts $117 billion June budget surplus
U.S. on track for lowest full-year deficit in five years
marketwatch.com

“Both the Obama administration and the Congressional Budget Office are expecting the government to record a deficit of below $1 trillion for the first time since 2008. In 2009, the year President Barack Obama took office, the U.S. posted a record $1.4 trillion deficit as the country struggled with the recession. Budget gaps since then have narrowed as the economy has gradually improved.”

And any time now, GOP will be along to declare that this is “proof” that eviscerating spending “works.”

383 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:25:58pm

re: #374 Joanne

Didn’t hear them. Sorry.

384 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:26:15pm

Dang.. We are under an Amber alert. A known sex offender just grabbed 2 year old girl 15 minutes ago..They have the car descript on air..Please let the 2 yr old be safe and come back home unharmed..

385 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:26:53pm

re: #382 Targetpractice

They’ll use this as proof that sequestration works, and that they need more. Will demand still more cuts in government programs.

386 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:27:41pm

re: #378 Kragar

Obviously all about motorcycles, then. //

387 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:28:11pm

re: #378 Kragar

Wow

388 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:28:12pm

re: #385 lawhawk

They’ll use this as proof that sequestration works, and that they need more. Will demand still more cuts in government programs.

Or use it as reason to take hostages over the debt ceiling, declaring that since gutting the budget has worked “so well,” now it’s time to start going after entitlements with “reform.”

389 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:28:17pm

re: #377 Targetpractice

Apparently two jurors had the same “chin resting in hand” gesture going on by the end of Bernie’s closing and another, the Hispanic nurse, wouldn’t make eye contact with him.

Hung jury might very well be what we’re looking at.

Would you view an acquittal or hung jury in this case as an example of the system working the way it should or not?

If this is the way the system is supposed to work, then how should it deal with a hypothetical scenario where a vigilante kills someone while making sure: 1) there are no witnesses, 2) the shooting is from close range, and 3) the victim is not shot in the back?

390 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:28:44pm

re: #380 Mike Lamb

This isn’t a SYG case. Zimmerman dropped that as a defense.

SYG looms heavy over this case: without it, the police would have been compelled to charge him with manslaughter and collect evidence immediately after the shooting.

The only reason this case is a nationwide scandal is for the fact that it took so long to come to bring charges against him.

391 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:30:50pm

re: #383 lawhawk

Didn’t hear them. Sorry.

Bummer. Thanks.

392 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:31:43pm

re: #389 EPR-radar

Would you view an acquittal or hung jury in this case as an example of the system working the way it should or not?

If this is the way the system is supposed to work, then how should it deal with a hypothetical scenario where a vigilante kills someone while making sure: 1) there are no witnesses, 2) the shooting is from close range, and 3) the victim is not shot in the back?

A trial is about what the prosecution can prove, not what it speculates happened.

393 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:32:03pm

Dont forget, after the defense closing arguments, prosecution gets one more hour of rebuttal argument. You can bet they will have more to say, and defense cant contradict.

394 A Mom Anon  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:32:21pm

re: #357 Sol Berdinowitz

This case wasn’t tried using SYG. A judge has to sign off on that before the trial can proceed using that as a defense, the defense never bothered with it. Unless what I’ve read and heard is wrong, SYG was not a part of this trial.

395 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:33:12pm

re: #394 A Mom Anon

This case wasn’t tried using SYG. A judge has to sign off on that before the trial can proceed using that as a defense, the defense never bothered with it. Unless what I’ve read and heard is wrong, SYG was not a part of this trial.

Defense decided not to go forward with SYG hearing, because it had work it still needed to do to prepare and Nelson refused to allow them more time to do so.

396 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:34:45pm

re: #395 Targetpractice

Defense decided not to go forward with SYG hearing, because it had work it still needed to do to prepare and Nelson refused to allow them more time to do so.

Bullshit. You cant claim SYG if you stalk someone…and that’s what he did. I dont even think Defense denies this.

397 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:35:22pm

re: #394 A Mom Anon

This case wasn’t tried using SYG. A judge has to sign off on that before the trial can proceed using that as a defense, the defense never bothered with it. Unless what I’ve read and heard is wrong, SYG was not a part of this trial.

SYG is still the elephant in the courtroom here.

Without SYG, this probably would never have happened, and if it had, the police would have been compelled to bring charges and gather evidence immediately.

The true scandal was the fact that the police were pressured not to and feared repercussions because of SYG.

398 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:35:49pm

Oh Louie,

That one deserves a triple facepalm. When one simply isn’t good enough.

399 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:36:21pm

re: #396 blueraven

Bullshit. You cant claim SYG if you stalk someone…and that’s what he did. I dont even think Defense denies this.

You can claim SYG if you’re in a place you have a legal right to be in and are not in the commission of a crime.

400 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:36:25pm

oh and if anyone is looking for a good stock to invest in I recommend Sun Power. They’re a solar company with some big contracts here in Cali and doing some great work. Stock has doubled since February and continues to climb

401 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:36:42pm

re: #398 lawhawk

Oh Louis,

[Embedded content]


That one deserves a triple facepalm. When one simply isn’t good enough.

Delusional idiot.

402 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:38:45pm

Rand Paul’s rebuttal statement requires a bit of deconstruction. Joan Walsh is not always my favorite person, but this dissection is pretty good vis-a-vis how problematic Paul’s ideas…and his source material…are. He might duck and weave on the more harsh aspects of the Southern Avenger’s statements, but his citations and opinions align with neo-Confederates in a bunch of ways.

403 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:38:48pm

re: #399 Targetpractice

Trayvon Martin had no duty to retreat, and Zimmerman killed him for that (with Zimmerman’s supporters saying that Zimmerman was protected by SYG and ignoring that Martin was also protected by SYG).

Moreover, but for Zimmerman’s actions, Martin would not be shot dead. Zimmerman also had the last clear chance to avoid the situation - simply by not getting out of the car and chasing him down.

404 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:39:30pm

re: #392 Targetpractice

A trial is about what the prosecution can prove, not what it speculates happened.

The prosecution can prove that Zimmerman shot Martin. That is established.

When you’re talking about the thoughts going thru Zimmerman’s head and his excuses for the shooting, you have to speculate, unless you have a spare telepath hanging around.

405 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:40:26pm

re: #403 lawhawk

Zimmerman violated Martin’s right to stand his ground.
/

406 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:40:27pm

the jury, i think, will want to convict him of something, but the question is, what charge is appropriate?

407 chadu  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:40:48pm

re: #404 Kragar

The prosecution can prove that Zimmerman shot Martin. That is established.

When you’re talking about the thoughts going thru Zimmerman’s head and his excuses for the shooting, you have to speculate, unless you have a spare telepath hanging around.

Point of Information: Telepathic evidence is inadmissable in court.

The Corps is Mother; the Corps is Father.

/b5

408 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:40:55pm

re: #403 lawhawk

Trayvon Martin had no duty to retreat, and Zimmerman killed him for that (with Zimmerman’s supporters saying that Zimmerman was protected by SYG and ignoring that Martin was also protected by SYG).

Moreover, but for Zimmerman’s actions, Martin would not be shot dead. Zimmerman also had the last clear chance to avoid the situation - simply by not getting out of the car and chasing him down.

I guess I should start putting a disclaimer after my posts on this subject about how I’m not passing a moral judgment and that I do not agree with Zimmerman’s actions that night.

409 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:41:14pm

re: #400 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

oh and if anyone is looking for a good stock to invest in I recommend Sun Power. They’re a solar company with some big contracts here in Cali and doing some great work. Stock has doubled since February and continues to climb

It is an excellent company.

410 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:41:21pm

re: #403 lawhawk

Zimmerman also had the last clear chance to avoid the situation - simply by not getting out of the car and chasing him down.

And that is how SYG legislation created the climate for things like this to happen.

411 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:41:51pm

re: #404 Kragar

The prosecution can prove that Zimmerman shot Martin. That is established.

When you’re talking about the thoughts going thru Zimmerman’s head and his excuses for the shooting, you have to speculate, unless you have a spare telepath hanging around.

Except no one disputes that Zimmerman shot Martin.

412 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:42:11pm

re: #399 Targetpractice

You can claim SYG if you’re in a place you have a legal right to be in and are not in the commission of a crime.

Martin was in a place he had a legal right to be as well. You cant stalk someone and then claim SYG.

413 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:42:46pm

re: #409 Backwoods_Sleuth

Yeah I made the mistake of selling before they blew up but have shares now and plan to stay for the long haul/get more in the near future.

414 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:42:47pm

re: #392 Targetpractice

A trial is about what the prosecution can prove, not what it speculates happened.

You’re kind of dodging the question here, IMO. This kind of fact pattern does not lend itself to proving a specific prosecution theory beyond a reasonable doubt. If that is taken to end the discussion, so that all defendants with this kind of fact pattern cannot be found guilty, then we have a de facto open season for vigilantes to take out those they see as undesirable.

I do not believe that is an acceptable outcome.

415 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:42:58pm

Stand Your Ground is not the same as Stalk And Confront

416 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:43:36pm

re: #403 lawhawk

Trayvon Martin had no duty to retreat, and Zimmerman killed him for that (with Zimmerman’s supporters saying that Zimmerman was protected by SYG and ignoring that Martin was also protected by SYG).

Moreover, but for Zimmerman’s actions, Martin would not be shot dead. Zimmerman also had the last clear chance to avoid the situation - simply by not getting out of the car and chasing him down.

Zimmerman also displayed clear animus towards Martin leading up to the shooting. You don’t call the police on someone, follow them while armed at night, refer to them as a suspect, asshole and punk with good intentions.

417 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:45:04pm

re: #407 chadu

Point of Information: Telepathic evidence is inadmissable in court.

The Corps is Mother; the Corps is Father.

/b5

Sanctioned psykers are allowed for interrogation purposes by the Orders of the Inquisition.

“There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty.” - Inquisitor Lord Fyodor Karamazov

418 darthstar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:45:40pm

re: #405 Kragar

Zimmerman violated Martin’s right to stand his ground.
/

Zimmerman violated Martin’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness…period.

419 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47:04pm

re: #411 Targetpractice

Except no one disputes that Zimmerman shot Martin.

So all you are left with is why the shooting happened, where you have to speculate on what the shooter was thinking at the time, not his excuses to cover his ass later.

420 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:48:31pm

re: #414 EPR-radar

You’re kind of dodging the question here, IMO. This kind of fact pattern does not lend itself to proving a specific prosecution theory beyond a reasonable doubt. If that is taken to end the discussion, so that all defendants with this kind of fact pattern cannot be found guilty, then we have a de facto open season for vigilantes to take out those they see as undesirable.

I do not believe that is an acceptable outcome.

All the more reason to revise the laws or to strike them. Not say that, despite a defendant not breaking the law, he should be convicted anyway because we simply don’t like the actions he took.

421 Gus  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:48:47pm

GZ tore off in pursuit that night with his hand gun and MMA already thinking that the person he was observing was a “fucking punk.” He was already prejudiced.

422 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:50:16pm

re: #419 Kragar

So all you are left with is why the shooting happened, where you have to speculate on what the shooter was thinking at the time, not his excuses to cover his ass later.

In this situation, you have to prove that it was not reasonable for the defendant to believe his life was in danger. But the standard is not that he has to receive a certain level of injury, just that he was not in a situation where a reasonable person would believe their life in danger.

423 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:50:19pm

re: #408 Targetpractice

It’s not a “moral” argument, it’s a legal one. The morality lies in the killing; the legality in how it was done. Since SYG was not a factor in this case (and Martin had the right to either confront or evade the person coming after him), then the legal question to me would be: Did Z have a right to shoot an unarmed person when there was no wrongdoing or potential harm to his person by the other?

If I have to answer the last with a “no”, then I have to decide whether Z’s actions constitutes 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. I would probably decide that 2nd degree fits better simply because Z took the law into his own hands and ended a life. He was acting as a vigilante by his actions. Being a “neighborhood watch captain” gives you no legal authority to do what he did. He knew it, too, but took action anyway, instead of waiting for the real cops.

424 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:50:30pm

re: #420 Targetpractice

All the more reason to revise the laws or to strike them. Not say that, despite a defendant not breaking the law, he should be convicted anyway because we simply don’t like the actions he took.

Except the did break the law. He profiled, stalked and killed Martin.

425 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:50:56pm

Tempers flare as Republicans boo Rep. Corrine Brown for shaming them over food stamp cuts

Republicans in the House of Representatives on Thursday threatened to strike a Democratic representative’s words from the record and then booed her after she shamed them for cutting food stamp funding from the farm bill.

“The Bible says, to whom much is given, much is required,” Rep. Corrine Brown (D-FL) observed during debate over whether funding for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) should be stripped from the farm bill. “And this is a sad day in the House of Representatives. Shame on the Republicans! Shame on the House of Representatives!”

After an objection from Rep. Rob Woodall (R-GA), Speaker pro tempore Kevin Yoder (R-KS) ordered Brown to “suspend” and “be seated.”

“Excuse me,” Brown replied, glaring at Yoder. “What did I say that was incorrect?”

In a point of parliamentary inquiry, Rep. Donna Edwards (D-MD) pointed out that Republican members of Congress had often called out President Barack Obama and even said, “Nancy Pelosi’s a train wreck.”

“And their words have not been taken down and they’ve not been seated,” Edwards insisted. “Is it not in order for the gentle lady to be recognized and to be able to speak on this issue, merely saying ‘Republicans’?”

426 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:52:42pm

re: #425 Kragar

Tempers flare as Republicans boo Rep. Corrine Brown for shaming them over food stamp cuts

I’d like to see how these House Republicans would respond if their pay was cut at the rate they want to cut food stamps. Really the gall of a fucking body that repeatedly votes to increase its own salary voting to cut support for those who need it most.

427 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:53:17pm

re: #422 Targetpractice

In this situation, you have to prove that it was not reasonable for the defendant to believe his life was in danger. But the standard is not that he has to receive a certain level of injury, just that he was not in a situation where a reasonable person would believe their life in danger.

He was already convinced in his own head this kid was a punk gangbanger who was about to commit crimes. That has proven to be incorrect. Therefore his assumption his life was in danger was also incorrect.

Guilty.

428 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:54:16pm

re: #427 Kragar

He was already convinced in his own head this kid was a punk gangbanger who was about to commit crimes. That has proven to be incorrect. Therefore his assumption his life was in danger was also incorrect.

Guilty.

A person is straddling you, already injured you, and you have no idea what he intends to do. You assume you’re okay and just wait for the cops?

429 A Mom Anon  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:54:26pm

re: #421 Gus

Referring to him as “the suspect” isn’t exactly a neutral position either. Zimmerman seems to have issues with any black teenager being within his eyesight.

If he manages to get out of this, I can see him shooting someone else at some point in time. He’ll think he got away with it, and he’ll do it again.

430 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:54:57pm

re: #419 Kragar

So all you are left with is why the shooting happened, where you have to speculate on what the shooter was thinking at the time, not his excuses to cover his ass later.

Fortunately we don’t have to speculate that hard. We can hear Zimmerman calling Martin a suspect, asshole, and alternatively either a fucking punk or fucking coon.

431 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:55:11pm

re: #428 Targetpractice

A person is straddling you, already injured you, and you have no idea what he intends to do. You assume you’re okay and just wait for the cops?

A guy is stalking you, gets out of his car and confronts you with a gun. You going to just wait for the cops?

432 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:55:15pm

re: #420 Targetpractice

All the more reason to revise the laws or to strike them. Not say that, despite a defendant not breaking the law, he should be convicted anyway because we simply don’t like the actions he took.

That a perfectly respectable position in my view, although I personally think Z is guilty of at least manslaughter. I don’t understand what the prosecution was thinking with murder 2 as the main charge, and manslaughter only being brought in (apparently) at the last minute.

With respect to changes in the law, any “stand your ground law” should include a duty to retreat from any confrontation outside of ones home or other real estate, IMO.

It is the lack of that duty to retreat in public that appears to have created this mess.

433 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:55:16pm

re: #395 Targetpractice

Defense decided not to go forward with SYG hearing, because it had work it still needed to do to prepare and Nelson refused to allow them more time to do so.

Bullshit. The defense decided months ago this wasn’t a SYG case. Probably last year. The defense knew he couldn’t claim SYG when Zimmerman followed Martin.

434 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:55:53pm

re: #431 Kragar

A guy is stalking you, gets out of his car and confronts you with a gun. You going to just wait for the cops?

No, I’d turn my ass and run the fuck away. I’d make the bastard catch me.

435 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:57:20pm

re: #432 EPR-radar

That a perfectly respectable position in my view, although I personally think Z is guilty of at least manslaughter. I don’t understand what the prosecution was thinking with murder 2 as the main charge, and manslaughter only being brought in (apparently) at the last minute.

With respect to changes in the law, any “stand your ground law” should include a duty to retreat from any confrontation outside of ones home or other real estate, IMO.

It is the lack of that duty to retreat in public that appears to have created this mess.

And I don’t agree with the SYG law. I am only commenting on it as it pertains to this case. I think it a bad law and that it needs to be struck down. But so long as it remains in force, it is the law.

436 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:58:09pm

re: #428 Targetpractice

A person is straddling you, already injured you, and you have no idea what he intends to do. You assume you’re okay and just wait for the cops?

A legal response is to hit them. A legal response is to escape.

What you don’t seem to get is that shooting them is NOT a legal response. A reasonable man would not act the same way just because you’re losing a fist fight where you do not sustain serious injuries.

437 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:58:39pm

re: #434 Targetpractice

No, I’d turn my ass and run the fuck away. I’d make the bastard catch me.

Why run when you can skip? //

438 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:58:45pm

re: #428 Targetpractice

A person you have stalked and confronted is straddling you, already injured you, and you have no idea what he intends to do. You assume you’re okay and just wait for the cops?

FTFY fer F’s sake

439 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:00:21pm

re: #436 gwangung

A legal response is to hit them. A legal response is to escape.

What you don’t seem to get is that shooting them is NOT a legal response. A reasonable man would not act the same way just because you’re losing a fist fight where you do not sustain serious injuries.

Self-defense is up to and including deadly force. If you can’t get away, and you can’t successfully fight back, then you’re supposed to just lie there and take it?

440 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:01:28pm

re: #434 Targetpractice

No, I’d turn my ass and run the fuck away. I’d make the bastard catch me.

And when he DOES catch you, what do you do? Just lie back and “think of England”?

good grief…you’re really grasping now.

441 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:01:40pm

Zimmerman was told to drive away and leave Martin alone.

He chose to provoke an incident.

That says his mental state was already confrontational.

The fact his target didn’t respond the way Zimmerman wanted doesn’t mean suddenly that Zimmerman became the victim.

442 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:01:51pm

re: #434 Targetpractice

Are you kidding? Z probably would have shot him in the back anyway, or caused some injury to detain him. The elements of his racism and playacting at cop are evident in the entire scenario.

Trayvon Martin had every right to be where he was. It was Z who became his nemesis and acted as cop, judge, and executioner, based on his own biases and suspicions.

443 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:01:59pm

re: #439 Targetpractice

Self-defense is up to and including deadly force. If you can’t get away, and you can’t successfully fight back, then you’re supposed to just lie there and take it?

He knew the cops were coming. He knew there were witnesses about that would be there soon. He did not have to shoot over minor injuries.

444 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:02:41pm

re: #439 Targetpractice

Self-defense is up to and including deadly force. If you can’t get away, and you can’t successfully fight back, then you’re supposed to just lie there and take it?

I guess running away didn’t work.

445 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:04:32pm

re: #440 Backwoods_Sleuth

And when he DOES catch you, what do you do? Just lie back an “think of England”?

good grief…you’re really grasping now.

If he catches me, he’s gonna have to tackle me or at least make a grab for me. If I turn around to confront, then I’m obviously not that afraid of him.

446 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:04:33pm

re: #439 Targetpractice

Self-defense is up to and including deadly force. If you can’t get away over your instinct to play vigilante and wind up getting in over your head, and you can’t successfully fight back, then you’re supposed to just lie there and take it?

Your arguments ignore the events that led to Zimmermann finding himself on the pavement with Martin in the first place.

447 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:05:06pm

re: #443 blueraven

He knew the cops were coming. He knew there were witnesses about that would be there soon. He did not have to shoot over minor injuries.

Knew the cops were coming and…what? They’d get there before he was dead?

448 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:05:09pm

re: #444 Kragar

I guess running away didn’t work.

Asking myself: “Do I want 10 Trayvon’s or 10 Zimmermans wandering my neighborhood?”

449 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:06:08pm

re: #446 Sol Berdinowitz

Your arguments ignore the events that led to Zimmermann finding himself on the pavement with Martin in the first place.

Because his actions aren’t a crime in and of themself. If there’s proof that Zimmerman posed a threat to Martin, I’ve not seen it. All I’ve heard is the repeated suggestion that meant to harm Martin, but yet took the time to call the cops and didn’t have his gun out.

450 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:06:31pm

re: #447 Targetpractice

Knew the cops were coming and…what? They’d get there before he was dead?

This sounds like the old “I was just standing there photocopying pages out of my sister’s diary and she suddenly freaked out for no reason” defense…

451 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:07:39pm

re: #406 engineer cat

the jury, i think, will want to convict him of something, but the question is, what charge is appropriate?

It’s conservative Florida. I’m not willing to take that bet.

452 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:08:09pm

re: #447 Targetpractice

Knew the cops were coming and…what? They’d get there before he was dead?

Maybe if he had stayed in his fucking car and driven away, like the cops told him too, instead of confronting the kid with a gun.

453 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:08:19pm

re: #449 Targetpractice

Because his actions aren’t a crime in and of themself. If there’s proof that Zimmerman posed a threat to Martin, I’ve not seen it. All I’ve heard is the repeated suggestion that meant to harm Martin, but yet took the time to call the cops and didn’t have his gun out.

How do you know when the gun came out?

454 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:10:44pm

re: #453 blueraven

How do you know when the gun came out?

So he had his gun out, but waited til on the ground getting beaten to take a shot. Even put on the show of screaming for help for 40 seconds.

Seems like an awful lot of work to walk on a self-defense claim.

455 EPR-radar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:12:26pm

re: #429 A Mom Anon

Referring to him as “the suspect” isn’t exactly a neutral position either. Zimmerman seems to have issues with any black teenager being within his eyesight.

If he manages to get out of this, I can see him shooting someone else at some point in time. He’ll think he got away with it, and he’ll do it again.

Per Wikipedia, Z was in his final semester at college for an associates degree in Criminal Justice at the time of the shooting. It is fair to assume he knows more than most about what it takes to prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, and used that to his advantage.

456 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:14:10pm

re: #454 Targetpractice

So he had his gun out, but waited til on the ground getting beaten to take a shot. Even put on the show of screaming for help for 40 seconds.

Seems like an awful lot of work to walk on a self-defense claim.

We are not sure who was screaming are we?
Maybe he had his gun out after he left his truck. Maybe Trayvon saw it and they wrestled over it.

457 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:14:41pm

re: #428 Targetpractice

A person is straddling you, already injured you, and you have no idea what he intends to do. You assume you’re okay and just wait for the cops?

ME has show there was no physical evidence to back up Zimmerman’s fairy tale of a fight.

458 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:14:47pm

re: #431 Kragar

A guy is stalking you, gets out of his car and confronts you with a gun. You going to just wait for the cops?

And Martin had no idea police were on their way. If anything, it was he fighting for his life. And he lost it.

459 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:15:03pm

re: #456 blueraven

We are not sure who was screaming are we?
Maybe he had his gun out after he left his truck. Maybe Trayvon saw it and they wrestled over it.

Okay, I see a guy I don’t know, who’s stalking me, and got his gun out. I get within arm’s reach and tried to wrestle with him for the gun?

460 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:16:00pm

I’m at the point I want this trial to end simply so that the every other day (if not daily) rehash of the case for 200-300 comments that fails to sways anyone’s opinion stops.

:p

461 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:16:16pm

re: #459 Targetpractice

Okay, I see a guy I don’t know, who’s stalking me, and got his gun out. I get within arm’s reach and tried to wrestle with him for the gun?

Maybe he didn’t see the gun until the last minute. It was dark, remember?

462 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:16:28pm

re: #459 Targetpractice

Okay, I see a guy I don’t know, who’s stalking me, and got his gun out. I get within arm’s reach and tried to wrestle with him for the gun?

No proof Martin actually did that. All we have is a lying murder’s word.

463 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:17:16pm

re: #462 William Barnett-Lewis

No proof Martin actually did that. All we have is a lying murder’s word.

We have no proof of who confronted who, who did what to start the fight, or even who threw the first punch. Yet we’re supposed to convict on murder?

464 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:17:56pm

re: #420 Targetpractice

All the more reason to revise the laws or to strike them. Not say that, despite a defendant not breaking the law, he should be convicted anyway because we simply don’t like the actions he took.

Stolid, unimaginative, mechanical and doctrinaire. His prior actions provide context. Blithely waiving off his calling Martin a suspect, asshole, and punk or coon as not intrinsically illegal actions in and of themselves doesn’t negate that context. Those actions cast his story of how the confrontation went down in a light that isn’t conducive to credulous acceptance. He didn’t just knowingly walk into danger, he eagerly sought it out while labeling Martin with expletives, even going so far as to ignore advice to abandon his pursuit.

I have no idea why none of this enters into whatever mental calculous you use to arrive at reasonable doubt, except that you simply don’t want it to.

465 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:18:29pm

re: #439 Targetpractice

Self-defense is up to and including deadly force. If you can’t get away, and you can’t successfully fight back, then you’re supposed to just lie there and take it?

Proportional response. WHICH YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE.

I smack you in the face and stand there. YOU CANNOT THEN USE A GUN TO SHOOT ME.

You keep ignoring that. You are being dishonest.

466 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:19:01pm

re: #459 Targetpractice

Okay, I see a guy I don’t know, who’s stalking me, and got his gun out. I get within arm’s reach and tried to wrestle with him for the gun?

Who said he had his gun out at that point? Zimmerman was armed, but Martin didn’t necessarily know that when Z got out of his car and started the incident.

467 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:19:06pm

re: #464 goddamnedfrank

Stolid, unimaginative, mechanical and doctrinaire. His prior actions provide context. Blithely waiving off his calling Martin a suspect, asshole, and punk or coon as not intrinsically illegal actions in and of themselves doesn’t negate that context. Those actions cast his story of how the confrontation went down in a light that isn’t conducive to credulous acceptance. He didn’t just knowingly walk into danger, he eagerly sought it out while spewing labeling Martin with expletives, even going so far as to ignore advice to abandon his pursuit.

I have no idea why none of this enters into whatever mental calculous you use to arrive at reasonable doubt, except that you simply don’t want it to.

Because I’m looking at the law, not morality. I’m looking at what can be proven, not what I want to believe.

468 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:19:51pm

re: #463 Targetpractice

We have no proof of who confronted who, who did what to start the fight, or even who threw the first punch. Yet we’re supposed to convict on murder?

So you’re saying Martin forced Zimmerman to keep following him, ignore police instructions, and made him get out of the car?

469 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:20:11pm

re: #465 gwangung

Proportional response. WHICH YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE.

I smack you in the face and stand there. YOU CANNOT THEN USE A GUN TO SHOOT ME.

You keep ignoring that. You are being dishonest.

You smack me in the face for what? What did I do to deserve a slap in the face? Follow you down the street? Respond to a question in a belligerent fashion?

470 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:20:59pm

re: #468 Kragar

So you’re saying Martin forced Zimmerman to keep following him, ignore police instructions, and made him get out of the car?

That’s not proof that he started the fight.

471 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:21:06pm

re: #465 gwangung

Proportional response. WHICH YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE.

I smack you in the face and stand there. YOU CANNOT THEN USE A GUN TO SHOOT ME.

You keep ignoring that. You are being dishonest.

So you’re saying burning down a house because a guy flipped me the bird might have been a bit too much?
///

472 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:21:09pm

re: #467 Targetpractice

Because I’m looking at the law,

No, you aren’t. You’re continuing to display an astonishing ignorance of the law and drawing unwarranted and unsupported inferences from the evidence, even in the face of other, more authoritative posters.

473 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:21:34pm

re: #469 Targetpractice

You smack me in the face for what? What did I do to deserve a slap in the face? Follow you down the street? Respond to a question in a belligerent fashion?

Doesn’t matter. THAT’S THE LAW.

474 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:22:27pm

re: #473 gwangung

Doesn’t matter. THAT’S THE LAW.

So a punch in the face is proportionate to being followed? Really?

475 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:23:14pm

re: #469 Targetpractice

You smack me in the face for what? What did I do to deserve a slap in the face? Follow you down the street? Respond to a question in a belligerent fashion?

So, the idea I’m getting here is that a person’s best course of action when engaged in an confrontation is to make sure you kill your opponent so its only your word against a corpses.

476 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:23:37pm

re: #474 Targetpractice

So a punch in the face is proportionate to being followed? Really?

You are being ignorant of the law here.

Stop being so dishonest.

477 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:23:56pm

re: #475 Kragar

So, the idea I’m getting here is that a person’s best course of action when engaged in an confrontation is to make sure you kill your opponent so its only your word against a corpses.

Apparently.

478 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:24:15pm

re: #475 Kragar

So, the idea I’m getting here is that a person’s best course of action when engaged in an confrontation is to make sure you kill your opponent so its only your word against a corpses.

The idea that it’s not very reasonable to confront someone you believe is dangerous. That holds true for both parties.

479 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:24:36pm

re: #476 gwangung

You are being ignorant of the law here.

Stop being so dishonest.

Bullshit. What did Zimmerman do that was proportionate to being punched in the face?

480 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:25:20pm

re: #474 Targetpractice

So a punch in the face is proportionate to being followed? Really?

Zimmerman said he didn’t want to get the kid away. Can you say he didn’t attempt to grab him first?

481 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:25:47pm

re: #480 Kragar

Zimmerman said he didn’t want to get the kid away. Can you say he didn’t attempt to grab him first?

Then where’s the evidence of this grabbing?

482 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:25:49pm

re: #445 Targetpractice

If he catches me, he’s gonna have to tackle me or at least make a grab for me. If I turn around to confront, then I’m obviously not that afraid of him.

And he has a gun and shoots you dead, with no reliable witnesses.
Good plan.

483 blueraven  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:25:55pm

re: #479 Targetpractice

Bullshit. What did Zimmerman do that was proportionate to being punched in the face?

Maybe instead of going for his cell phone he actually went for his gun. What would you say to a punch in the nose then?

484 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:25:59pm

re: #476 gwangung

You are being ignorant of the law here.

Stop being so dishonest.

re: #479 Targetpractice

Bullshit. What did Zimmerman do that was proportionate to being punched in the face?

Proportional response. Pay attention.

485 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:26:43pm

re: #478 Targetpractice

The idea that it’s not very reasonable to confront someone you believe is dangerous. That holds true for both parties.

So, you’re saying Zimmerman was not very reasonable, so his mental state and judgement are impaired.

I mean, why would you take a gun with you to confront someone you didn’t think was dangerous?

486 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:26:49pm

re: #482 Backwoods_Sleuth

And he has a gun and shoots you dead, with no reliable witnesses.
Good plan.

He has a gun and shoots me dead while I’m running, then that bullet’s going to be in my back. He can’t claim to be defending himself against somebody who’s running away.

487 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:27:13pm

re: #484 gwangung

Proportional response. Pay attention.

To what? What did Zimmerman do that was proportionate to being punched in the face?

488 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:27:25pm

re: #481 Targetpractice

Then where’s the evidence of this grabbing?

We could ask Martin…

Oh yeah. Well played Zimmerman.
/

489 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:27:39pm

re: #486 Targetpractice

He has a gun and shoots me dead while I’m running, then that bullet’s going to be in my back. He can’t claim to be defending himself against somebody who’s running away.

So you’re arguing for Martin, now? Make up your mind, you’re being confusing.

490 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:27:58pm

re: #485 Kragar

So, you’re saying Zimmerman was not very reasonable, so his mental state and judgement are impaired.

I mean, why would you take a gun with you to confront someone you didn’t think was dangerous?

By that logic, why own a gun if you know for sure you’re never going to need it?

491 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:27:59pm

re: #487 Targetpractice

To what? What did Zimmerman do that was proportionate to being punched in the face?

Pay attention.

492 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:28:47pm

re: #491 gwangung

Pay attention.

To what?

493 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:29:09pm

re: #486 Targetpractice

He has a gun and shoots me dead while I’m running, then that bullet’s going to be in my back. He can’t claim to be defending himself against somebody who’s running away.

Stop being obstructive. That is not what you asked.

He’s chasing you, he catches you, he tackles you and he has a gun and shoots you dead.

ETA what you said and to which I responded:

If he catches me, he’s gonna have to tackle me or at least make a grab for me. If I turn around to confront, then I’m obviously not that afraid of him.

494 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:29:35pm

re: #489 gwangung

So you’re arguing for Martin, now? Make up your mind, you’re being confusing.

I’m arguing for common sense. A reasonable person does not go towards danger.

495 Kragar  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:29:48pm

re: #490 Targetpractice

By that logic, why own a gun if you know for sure you’re never going to need it?

Probably to keep in my own home for protection, not to roam the streets looking for suspicious black people.

496 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:30:04pm

re: #493 Backwoods_Sleuth

Stop being obstructive. That is not what you asked.

He’s chasing you, he catches you, he tackles you and he has a gun and shoots you dead.

He caught me and tackled me, but I don’t have a bruise on me. Goddamn, did I just fall over for him?

497 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:30:25pm

re: #490 Targetpractice

By that logic, why own a gun if you know for sure you’re never going to need it?

Mine are all in a safe. The best reason that I could have for carrying one is that I might meet a Zimmerman.

498 gwangung  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:30:26pm

re: #494 Targetpractice

I’m arguing for common sense. A reasonable person does not go towards danger.

No, you’re not. Proportional response. Start paying attention to what people are actually saying instead of trying to win.

499 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:30:35pm

re: #495 Kragar

Probably to keep in my own home for protection, not to roam the streets looking for suspicious black people.

We’re in agreement, I’m not much for concealed carry laws either.

500 Joanne  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:31:19pm

re: #497 Decatur Deb

Mine are all in a safe. The best reason that I could have for carrying one is that I might meet a Zimmerman.

No kidding. Wild, Wild West on the corner near your home.

501 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:31:24pm

re: #498 gwangung

No, you’re not. Proportional response. Start paying attention to what people are actually saying instead of trying to win.

Isn’t that the point of this whole argument? To “win” by bringing others around to our way of thinking?

502 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:31:33pm

re: #496 Targetpractice

He caught me and tackled me, but I don’t have a bruise on me. Goddamn, did I just fall over for him?

I give up…you are deliberately ignoring what you originally said and my response and changing the goal posts while you’re at it.

503 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:33:57pm

re: #467 Targetpractice

Because I’m looking at the law, not morality. I’m looking at what can be proven, not what I want to believe.

You aren’t looking at the law, you’re looking at words. The law has spirit, meaning and intent. It shouldn’t be concerned with morality, but it’s entire purpose is to facilitate justice. You’re just being hyperliteral, intentionally obtuse and inconsistent.

504 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:36:51pm

Okay, I’ve had enough fun playing chew toy for awhile. I’m leaving before I do or say something that results in a time-out. If folks want to claim that as a victory, more power to ya.

505 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 2:38:50pm

re: #503 goddamnedfrank

Hyperliteral, Obtuse and Inconsistent is the biggest law firm in our town.

506 Backwoods_Sleuth  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 3:12:37pm

re: #504 Targetpractice

Okay, I’ve had enough fun playing chew toy for awhile. I’m leaving before I do or say something that results in a time-out. If folks want to claim that as a victory, more power to ya.

Would have helped your side of the debate if you had honestly responded to counter-arguments, but you couldn’t and/or wouldn’t.

507 Ming  Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:35:31pm

re: #13 Mattand

Swear to God, if a Democratic aide had a “youthful indiscretion” like being FUCKING PRO-JOHN WILKES BOOTH the apoplexy in the GOP would be earth shattering.

Yes, I seem to recall the GOP made quite a fuss that in the 1990’s, Barack Obama was seen in Bill Ayers’ living room.


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