Greenwald’s Guardian Articles Contain Dozens of Embedded Trackers From Corporate PRISM Participants

Never mind the trackers behind the curtain
Technology • Views: 18,185
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Bob Cesca makes an excellent point in a post about a new article by computer security writer Bruce Schneier: Government Surveillance Critics Willingly Accept Egregious Corporate Privacy Violations.

While viewing Schneier’s article, I ran a browser privacy extension called Ghostery, which detects web bugs embedded in a page. The result? 33 different corporate trackers on Schneier’s page, including ads (one from Shell Energy) and numerous analytics services that ascertain detailed demographics and tracking information about my visit to the page: Google Analytics (one the companies that Schneier said had caved to NSA pressure), Google Adsense, Facebook (another tech company in cahoots with NSA), Chartbeat, CoreAudience, Integral Ad Service, NetRatings SiteCensus, Omniture, SimpleReach, Value Revenue and VoiceFive. (For what it’s worth, Glenn Greenwald’s XKEYSCORE article on The Guardian contained 27 trackers, including PRISM participants Google and Facebook.)

Yes, most web pages, including my article here on The Daily Banter, use analytics to determine who’s visiting the site. But we’re not pretending to be self-righteously above it all, nor do we claim to be a haven of personal privacy. We’re also well aware that concerned readers can easily opt out by blocking the trackers.

More broadly speaking, you can opt out of everything, including NSA data collection, by taking basic measures against it: you can go entirely off the grid; you can install encryption software; you can buy prepaid phones; you can load ad-blocker extensions and you can attain other technology to hide your hilarious cat memes from Barack Obama. You can stop using Google, Facebook and Windows Live. Fact: your level of digital privacy is your prerogative.

But I suspect even the most vocal government critics will continue to be willing participants in American corporate/consumer culture, just as Occupy Wall Street supporters voiced their disdain for corporations by tweeting about it via handheld devices constructed in Chinese sweat-shops by exploited workers.

I have the Ghostery extension installed as well, and it confirms that The Guardian’s pages have 27 different corporate tracking widgets installed. So by reading an article by Glenn Greenwald at The Guardian, you’re actually enabling dozens of corporations to track your movements on the web — which websites you look at, which products you buy, etc.

Companies that have much less oversight than the NSA (most have no oversight), and essentially no restrictions on what they can do with your data.

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266 comments
1 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:21:24pm

Those hipsters and their ironies..

2 b.d.  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:23:33pm

But Procter & Gamble can’t throw me in jail man.

//

3 efuseakay  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:23:56pm

But DRONES!

4 As Stupid as I Look  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:26:16pm

Does this mean I have to learn a whole new mantra?

5 Bulworth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:26:29pm
While viewing Schneier’s article, I ran a browser privacy extension called Ghostery, which detects web bugs embedded in a page.

No idea what this is, or what a web bug is. Sounds very techy though.

6 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:27:01pm

And the left/right fringe convergence confirms another data point.

Corporations good, government bad, because magnets.

7 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:28:21pm

re: #2 b.d.

But they can make you want to commit seppuku.

8 Bulworth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:28:32pm

Ron Paul!!! End the FED!!!!

9 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:29:11pm

re: #5 Bulworth

Here’s a Wikipedia explanation: Web Bug.

10 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:29:30pm

It’s the same thing with all the phone apps. They ask for all kinds of access to phone features, including GPS, wifi, and those details can give specific data to the app makers, the marketers and third parties that can be repackaged, resold, and distributed. Anything that they think can be monetized, they will attempt to do.

Shelly Palmer’s noted that the only thing that stands in the way of unethical abuse of stuff like tracking within stores using GPS/wifi is that if the company does something bad, they stand to lose money. Except that the person might not know/realize what’s happened until well down the road.

The only thing an individual can do in those circumstances is not use the apps (or visit those webpages or keep wifi/gps active) or install software on their computers that scrubs/prevents these widgets/tracking software bits from operating. Most people don’t bother.

11 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:29:44pm

re: #7 Justanotherhuman

But they can make you want to commit seppuku.

Or eat borscht out of a vending machine for a month.

12 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:30:19pm

re: #6 erik_t

And the left/right fringe convergence confirms another data point.

Corporations good, government bad, because magnets.

magnets are very attractive, you know…

13 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:31:50pm

And the GGs will be quick to mutter to themselves that that’s a-okay, corporations can totally track their every move and exploit that info, because they “choose” to allow all of it.

But the reality is that the Supreme Court already ruled on this, in fact they ruled over 4 decades ago. What did they rule? If you give out that information willingly, you have no expectation of privacy. You cannot claim information to be private when you give it to a public company for the purpose of having a service performed.

14 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:32:06pm

re: #12 Backwoods_Sleuth

magnets are very attractive, you know…

What a repulsive pun.

15 Bulworth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:32:12pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Thanks. Pretty amazing.

16 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:32:41pm

re: #14 erik_t

What a repulsive pun.

Sick of your polarizing statements.

17 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:33:16pm

re: #14 erik_t

What a repulsive pun.

and somewhat sticky as well…

18 Internet Tough Guy  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:33:44pm

None of these companies are led by Obama, so it’s OK that they know everything you do.

19 b.d.  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:34:43pm

re: #16 Decatur Deb

Sick of your polarizing statements.

Stay positive now, quit being so negative.

20 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:35:16pm

re: #19 b.d.

Stay positive now, quit being so negative.

yes, it’s all about PERSONALITY!

21 Gus  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:36:48pm

re: #19 b.d.

Stay positive now, quit being so negative.

I’d rather be an insane clown.

22 Bulworth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:36:55pm
More broadly speaking, you can opt out of everything, including NSA data collection, by taking basic measures against it: you can go entirely off the grid;

And go all the way back in time to 1990? Shut up you.

///

23 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:37:13pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

And the GGs will be quick to mutter to themselves that that’s a-okay, corporations can totally track their every move and exploit that info, because they “choose” to allow all of it.

But the reality is that the Supreme Court already ruled on this, in fact they ruled over 4 decades ago. What did they rule? If you give out that information willingly, you have no expectation of privacy. You cannot claim information to be private when you give it to a public company for the purpose of having a service performed.

This is important to remember if you ever use an escort agency.

24 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:37:36pm

re: #19 b.d.

Stay positive now, quit being so negative.

I do tend to monopoleize the conversation.

25 b.d.  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:37:49pm

There’s a reason they call it The Information Age.

26 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:38:03pm

re: #23 GeneJockey

This is important to remember if you ever use an escort agency.

The Spitzer Rule

27 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:38:18pm

re: #24 Decatur Deb

I do tend to monopoleize the conversation.

That sounds sort of ionic.

28 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:38:59pm

re: #27 Feline Fearless Leader

That sounds sort of ionic.

Only solution at hand.

29 Gus  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:39:03pm
30 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:39:18pm

really excellent post, one of the best imho since i’ve been here!

the great irony that orwell never anticipated is that we would willingly pay to create and live in the total surveillance civilization

31 OhNoZombies!  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:39:24pm

I don’t know about you all, but I’m building a Doomsday Castle. Goin’ off the grid…
As long as I can get a tv show about it.
//

32 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:39:57pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

And the GGs will be quick to mutter to themselves that that’s a-okay, corporations can totally track their every move and exploit that info, because they “choose” to allow all of it.

But the reality is that the Supreme Court already ruled on this, in fact they ruled over 4 decades ago. What did they rule? If you give out that information willingly, you have no expectation of privacy. You cannot claim information to be private when you give it to a public company for the purpose of having a service performed.

doesn’t it make a difference that most of us have no idea it’s happening and never gave explicit assent?

33 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:40:47pm

re: #26 Decatur Deb

The Spitzer Rule

I was gonna make a joke with ‘spitzer’, but it wasn’t safe for polite company. That, and I couldn’t manage to bring the punchline in for a landing..

34 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:41:15pm

re: #29 Gus

[Embedded content]

Looks like Ilya Kuriakin

35 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:41:16pm

re: #32 engineer cat

doesn’t it make a difference that most of us have no idea it’s happening and never gave explicit assent?

You sent the HTTP request, thereby providing your IP address as well as the time and the date to the company. They can tell whoever they want that such-and-such IP made a request at such-and-such timestamp.

36 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:41:24pm
37 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:41:30pm

re: #29 Gus

Friend to Wikileaks/Snowden/Greenwald Putin worked extensively in Dresden, East Germany during the 1980s.

where he was portrayed by ilya kuryakin of The Man from U.N.C.L.E.

38 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:41:39pm

re: #32 engineer cat

doesn’t it make a difference that most of us have no idea it’s happening and never gave explicit assent?

Ignorance rarely passes muster as a legal defense.

39 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:42:18pm

re: #38 Feline Fearless Leader

Ignorance rarely passes muster as a legal defense.

Think we’ve all heard at least once in our lives that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

40 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:42:25pm

re: #35 erik_t

You sent the HTTP request, thereby providing your IP address as well as the time and the date to the company. They can tell whoever they want that such-and-such IP made a request at such-and-such timestamp.

but i never signed anything saying that it was ok for the company to record and resell that information

41 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:42:44pm

re: #32 engineer cat

Ignorance of the law is no defense. : )

42 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:43:00pm

re: #38 Feline Fearless Leader

Ignorance rarely passes muster as a legal defense.

i have a lot of it so i must be a test case for all ignorance defenses!

43 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:43:31pm

re: #37 engineer cat

where he was portrayed by ilya kuryakin of The Man from U.N.C.L.E.

Fifteen seconds.

44 b.d.  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:43:43pm

re: #37 engineer cat

where he was portrayed by ilya kuryakin of The Man from U.N.C.L.E.

I still like him better now than when he was singing for Genesis

45 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:44:16pm

re: #40 engineer cat

but i never signed anything saying that it was ok for the company to record and resell that information

So then you can argue whether it was an “opt in” or “opt out” agreement. And beyond that whether the company was required to explicitly (and possibly repeatedly) tell you it was “opt out”. (And possibly that the “opt out” action was not the use their site.)

46 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:44:19pm

re: #32 engineer cat

doesn’t it make a difference that most of us have no idea it’s happening and never gave explicit assent?

Which part? If I make a phone call, I have to give the number I intend to dial to the phone company in order to make the call. So a note is made of the number dialed, the number of the dialer, and the duration of the call. It’s not information that I wouldn’t unknowingly give up.

47 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:45:16pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

And the GGs will be quick to mutter to themselves that that’s a-okay, corporations can totally track their every move and exploit that info, because they “choose” to allow all of it.

But the reality is that the Supreme Court already ruled on this, in fact they ruled over 4 decades ago. What did they rule? If you give out that information willingly, you have no expectation of privacy. You cannot claim information to be private when you give it to a public company for the purpose of having a service performed.

ignorance is no defense, but if i am ignorant of it, how can i be giving out the information “willingly”?

48 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:45:46pm

re: #40 engineer cat

but i never signed anything saying that it was ok for the company to record and resell that information

The request was made over the public internet, unencrypted and without any sort of expectation of privacy. This is the nature of the internet.

If we’re talking https, perhaps an argument can be made.

49 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:46:06pm

re: #47 engineer cat

ignorance is no defense, but if i am ignorant of it, how can i be giving out the information “willingly”?

Use of service implies consent.

50 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:46:26pm

re: #35 erik_t

You sent the HTTP request, thereby providing your IP address as well as the time and the date to the company. They can tell whoever they want that such-and-such IP made a request at such-and-such timestamp.

These days, it’s possible for a tracking bug to get much much more information than that, by using techniques like the dreaded Zombie Cookie.

51 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:47:46pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

BRB, soaking motherboard in hydrofluoric acid.

52 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:48:11pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

Which part? If I make a phone call, I have to give the number I intend to dial to the phone company in order to make the call. So a note is made of the number dialed, the number of the dialer, and the duration of the call. It’s not information that I wouldn’t unknowingly give up.

example:

“please be aware that when you make a phone call, the phone company (internet site, etc) will keep a record of the call, which information may be re-sold to another company, or otherwise used by the phone company for purposes of commercial profit”

that’s what i was never aware of and never consented to

53 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:49:20pm

re: #49 Feline Fearless Leader

Use of service implies consent.

where is it stated or legislated that use of a service implies consent that such use may be recorded and the information sold or otherwise re-used for commercial purposes?

54 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:49:43pm

re: #47 engineer cat

ignorance is no defense, but if i am ignorant of it, how can i be giving out the information “willingly”?

re: #52 engineer cat

example:

“please be aware that when you make a phone call, the phone company (internet site, etc) will keep a record of the call, which information may be re-sold to another company, or otherwise used by the phone company for purposes of commercial profit”

that’s what i was never aware of and never consented to

Sure you did, when you signed the contract. Oh sure, you’ll argue that you never read that portion of the contract, but it very likely was there. And so long as your signature is on the contract, you’ve consented. You won’t get very far in a court arguing that your failure to read and understand the contract renders the agreement null and void.

55 OhNoZombies!  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:49:52pm

Zombie Cookies?!?
Can…can I shoot ‘em in the head?
///
Learn something new everyday.

56 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:50:02pm

re: #52 engineer cat

example:

“please be aware that when you make a phone call, the phone company (internet site, etc) will keep a record of the call, which information may be re-sold to another company, or otherwise used by the phone company for purposes of commercial profit”

that’s what i was never aware of and never consented to

How certain are you of that? You signed a contract with your telecom and with your ISP, right? Did you read them?

57 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:50:27pm

If you are alive, you will be tracked, somehow, someway, by someone.

First, by your mother … .

58 Gus  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:50:43pm
59 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:50:58pm

re: #53 engineer cat

where is it stated or legislated that use of a service implies consent that such use may be recorded and the information sold or otherwise re-used for commercial purposes?

You’re yelling into the open air and saying nobody can record your voice. This is working from a mental model and framework that simply isn’t reflective of the nature of the internet.

60 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:53:10pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

Oh sure, you’ll argue that you never read that portion of the contract, but it very likely was there

maybe somebody has a copy of one of those contracts and can quote that portion

anybody?

61 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:53:40pm

re: #59 erik_t

You’re yelling into the open air and saying nobody can record your voice. This is working from a mental model and framework that simply isn’t reflective of the nature of the internet.

that’s not a legal argument

62 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:54:21pm

Another technique for creating cookies that are nearly impossible to delete: Evercookie.

(I don’t use any of this stuff here at LGF, by the way.)

63 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:54:43pm

re: #56 GeneJockey

How certain are you of that? You signed a contract with your telecom and with your ISP, right? Did you read them?

do you sign a contract with a web site when you log on to it that states that you are aware that the fact that you have visited the web site will be recorded and the information re-sold?

64 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:55:12pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Another technique for creating cookies that are nearly impossible to delete: Evercookie.

(I don’t use any of this stuff here at LGF, by the way.)

I DEMAND CHOCOLATE CHIPs!

65 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:55:36pm

If ‘expectation of privacy’ is the standard, does that mean that naifs get more privacy than cynics?

66 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:56:18pm

re: #61 engineer cat

that’s not a legal argument

Sending HTTP requests over an unencrypted common carrier is, in point of fact, very analogous to shouting from your rooftop. I get that you’re uncomfortable with that, and were perhaps previously unaware of it, but that’s just how it works. The internet is built on the premise of a constantly changing and robust network topology, which means that, in principle, everyone can hear everyone. That is by design. Everything you transmit, unless you take very specific actions to the contrary, is in the open.

67 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:56:28pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Another technique for creating cookies that are nearly impossible to delete: Evercookie.

(I don’t use any of this stuff here at LGF, by the way.)

Are we supposed to believe an Obamabot?

68 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:57:44pm

re: #67 Decatur Deb

Are we supposed to believe an Obamabot?

Of course, that’s what I would say, isn’t it?

69 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:57:49pm

re: #60 engineer cat

maybe somebody has a copy of one of those contracts and can quote that portion

anybody?

Here’s Verizon’s to begin with. In fact, they have an entire section on privacy:

We collect personal information about you. We gather some information through our relationship with you, such as information about the quantity, technical configuration, type, destination and amount of your use of our telecommunications services. You can find out how we use, share and protect the information we collect about you in the Verizon Privacy Policy, available at verizon.com/privacy. By entering this Agreement, you consent to our data collection, use and sharing practices described in our Privacy Policy. We provide you with choices to limit, in certain circumstances, our use of the data we have about you. You can review these choices at verizon.com/privacy/#limits. If there are additional specific advertising and marketing practices for which your consent is necessary, we will seek your consent (such as through the privacy-related notices you receive when you purchase or use products and services) before engaging in those practices. If you subscribe to Service for which usage charges are billed at the end of the billing period (“Postpay Service”), we may investigate your credit history at any time and share credit information about you with credit reporting agencies and other Verizon companies. If you’d like the name and address of any credit agency that gives us a credit report about you, just ask.

Many services and applications offered through your device may be provided by third parties. Some of these services and applications, which you may block or restrict at no cost, may involve charges for which you will be billed. The amount and frequency of the charges will be disclosed when you agree to the charges. Before you use, link to or download a service or application provided by a third party, you should review the terms of such service or application and applicable privacy policy. Personal information you submit may be read, collected or used by the service or application provider and/or other users of those forums. Verizon Wireless is not responsible for any third-party information, content, applications or services you access, download or use on your device. You are responsible for maintaining virus and other Internet security protections when accessing these third-party products or services. For additional information, visit the Verizon Content Policy at responsibility.verizon.com

You consent to allow Verizon Wireless and anyone who collects on our behalf to contact you about your account status, including past due or current charges, using prerecorded calls, email and calls or messages delivered by an automatic telephone dialing system to any wireless phone number or email address you provide. Verizon Wireless will treat any email address you provide as your private email that is not accessible by unauthorized third parties. Unless you notify us that your wireless service is based in a different time zone, calls will be made to your cellular device during permitted calling hours based upon the time zone affiliated with the mobile telephone number you provide.

Now, you were saying?

70 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:58:00pm

re: #66 erik_t

Sending HTTP requests over an unencrypted common carrier is, in point of fact, very analogous to shouting from your rooftop

:-)

oh what a nerdacious unverse we live in in this world of today!

71 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:58:57pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

Of course, that’s what I would say, isn’t it?

Chuqiyya!!

72 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:59:20pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

Of course, that’s what I would say, isn’t it?

just hand over the chocolate chip cookies and no one gets hurt…

73 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:00:24pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

Sure you did, when you signed the contract. Oh sure, you’ll argue that you never read that portion of the contract, but it very likely was there. And so long as your signature is on the contract, you’ve consented. You won’t get very far in a court arguing that your failure to read and understand the contract renders the agreement null and void.

Many of the contracts or terms of service that I’ve bothered to read for things like banking, cell phone service, internet service, etc, have within their paragraphs wording to the effect that the agreed-upon terms can be modified at any later time, and without notice to you, merely by revising some on-line document that they may or may not have provided you a link to.

Seems fair, right?

74 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:03:19pm

re: #70 engineer cat

:-)

oh what a nerdacious unverse we live in in this world of today!

My wife saw a news piece today, about the fact that smartphone pictures will include location in their metadata, which is accessible when you post them anywhere. Using nothing but the publicly accessible metadata in a family’s pics on Facebook, they were able to map a lot of creepy stuff, like the location of the teendaughter’s bedroom, the toddler’s favorite place on the playground, etc, not to mention the location of the house.

75 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:03:35pm

re: #6 erik_t

And the left/right fringe convergence confirms another data point.

Corporations good, government bad, because magnets.

How the f—k do they work?

76 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:03:42pm

re: #73 abolitionist

Many of the contracts or terms of service that I’ve bothered to read for things like banking, cell phone service, internet service, etc, have within their paragraphs wording to the effect that the agreed-upon terms can be modified at any later time, and without notice to you, merely by revising some on-line document that they may or may not have provided you a link to.

Seems fair, right?

I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further.

77 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:04:09pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

Here’s Verizon’s to begin with. In fact, they have an entire section on privacy:

Now, you were saying?

look - obviously all of these things you’ve been describing must be legal the way you are all asserting, since otherwise there would be lawsuits all over the place - i mean, obviously i have not personally just discovered some principal of law in the past half an hour that will overturn the entire internets, right?

so please take my point as intended, which is not “Now, you were saying?”, like i thought for some stupid reason that the whole thing has never been gone over in legal terms before in painful detail, but merely this:

almost everybody on the internet has no idea it’s going on and never consciously consented to it

even if they clicked on something or signed some agreement that contained language that gave all companies that they interface with in some way on the web the explicit right to track them and use and sell that information as they see fit

this is correct, no?

78 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:04:16pm

re: #76 Feline Fearless Leader

I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further.

This deal’s getting worse all the time.

79 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:04:19pm

re: #73 abolitionist

Many of the contracts or terms of service that I’ve bothered to read for things like banking, cell phone service, internet service, etc, have within their paragraphs wording to the effect that the agreed-upon terms can be modified at any later time, and without notice to you, merely by revising some on-line document that they may or may not have provided you a link to.

Seems fair, right?

So, what you’re agreeing to is that the thing you’re agreeing to could become something you’d never agree to without requiring you to agree to it.

80 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:05:12pm

re: #64 FemNaziBitch

I DEMAND CHOCOLATE CHIPs!

No, peanut butter!

81 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:05:13pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

This deal’s getting worse all the time.

‘Now where’s that bald guy with the headphones?”

82 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:05:16pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

This deal’s getting worse all the time.

These are clown shoes. You will wear them and refer to yourself as “Mary”.

83 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:05:36pm

re: #80 Eclectic Cyborg

No, peanut butter!

Peanut butter WITH chocolate chips!

84 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:06:10pm

re: #80 Eclectic Cyborg

No, peanut butter!

I’m open to it.

85 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:06:22pm

re: #73 abolitionist

Many of the contracts or terms of service that I’ve bothered to read for things like banking, cell phone service, internet service, etc, have within their paragraphs wording to the effect that the agreed-upon terms can be modified at any later time, and without notice to you, merely by revising some on-line document that they may or may not have provided you a link to.

Seems fair, right?

In many cases these provisions are one sided, meaning the COMPANY can alter the deal any time it so chooses with proper notice but YOU can’t do a darned thing with it.

Heck in many cases the whole darned agreement is one sided.

See also: Software EULAs (End User License Agreement)

86 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:06:26pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

and in addition, what language in the text cited here gives other companies the right to track my visits to their webpages and use or sell the information for commercial purposes?

88 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:07:00pm
89 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:07:14pm

re: #87 Charles Johnson

It Is Possible to Kill the Evercookie | Ars Technica

sounds like a rotating headline winner.

90 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:07:30pm

re: #88 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Mine.

91 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:08:12pm

re: #74 GeneJockey

My wife saw a news piece today, about the fact that smartphone pictures will include location in their metadata, which is accessible when you post them anywhere. Using nothing but the publicly accessible metadata in a family’s pics on Facebook, they were able to map a lot of creepy stuff, like the location of the teendaughter’s bedroom, the toddler’s favorite place on the playground, etc, not to mention the location of the house.

I saw the same thing plastered all over my FB newsfeed this morning.
Apparently, all you have to do is go into your phone settings and turn off the location thingie.
Since I only have a landline, I’m clueless about photos by phone, smart or otherwise…

92 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:08:58pm

re: #82 Feline Fearless Leader

These are clown shoes. You will wear them and refer to yourself as “Mary”.

So the Internet is a Python skit?

93 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:10:15pm
94 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:10:27pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

So the Internet is a Python skit?

It’s from a Robot Chicken episode, but essentially a descendent of Python.
So, to a certain degree, yes, it is.
:)

95 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:10:55pm

Even someone like me, who doesn’t use a cell phone, or FB or Twitter, but still uses the internet, has something, somewhere, on the internet, even if it’s just in the White Pages or some other directory, because I have a landline. So, if you knew my name, you could find my address and phone number. Otherwise, nada. I did find out, though, that even if I think I have a unique name, there are actually about 8 others in the US with the same one.

Ever google your own name?

96 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:11:03pm

re: #91 Backwoods_Sleuth

I saw the same thing plastered all over my FB newsfeed this morning.
Apparently, all you have to do is go into your phone settings and turn off the location thingie.
Since I only have a landline, I’m clueless about photos by phone, smart or otherwise…

Pretty sure that’s where she found it. The thing is, the default is to include it, so you have to be able to figure out how to find it and turn it off.

And let’s face it - a lot of smartphones are owned by dumb humans. Like the girl who lived with us for a while, who, while out to dinner with my wife, posted “I’m bored!” to Facebook, forgetting that my wife is one of her FB friends.

97 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:11:37pm

If I ever have to assemble a rogue cell, I’ll have to dust off the Compaq Aero 4/25 under DRDos. No one ever bothered to spoof that POS.

98 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:12:06pm

re: #74 GeneJockey

My wife saw a news piece today, about the fact that smartphone pictures will include location in their metadata, which is accessible when you post them anywhere. Using nothing but the publicly accessible metadata in a family’s pics on Facebook, they were able to map a lot of creepy stuff, like the location of the teendaughter’s bedroom, the toddler’s favorite place on the playground, etc, not to mention the location of the house.

Actually, I think they already do. There is someway to turn the off. Metadata includes the actual photo info as well —like pixes, file type, RAW, etc. I turned the GPS part of my phone off and that doesn’t seem to appear in my photos, at least not on photoshop to my view.

I figure eventually, I won’t have a choice. It’s nice to have when you are trying to figure out old photos —when they were taken and where.

When my MIL died, all the siblings sat around a table with a box of photos and tried to figure out what each one was —-who, where, when. Metadata would have saved about 8 hours of bullshit.

99 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:12:19pm

For what it’s worth, a survey of a dozen Facebook pictures of my own little universe (my photos and those of friends) shows exactly zero of them with any embedded EXIF data.

Go try for yourself:

regex.info

100 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:13:08pm

re: #77 engineer cat

look - obviously all of these things you’ve been describing must be legal the way you are all asserting, since otherwise there would be lawsuits all over the place - i mean, obviously i have not personally just discovered some principal of law in the past half an hour that will overturn the entire internets, right?

so please take my point as intended, which is not “Now, you were saying?”, like i thought for some stupid reason that the whole thing has never been gone over in legal terms before in painful detail, but merely this:

almost everybody on the internet has no idea it’s going on and never consciously consented to it

even if they clicked on something or signed some agreement that contained language that gave all companies that they interface with in some way on the web the explicit right to track them and use and sell that information as they see fit

this is correct, no?

It’s correct in the sense that they didn’t say “Monitor me all you like” when they access a public website. But that’s a bit like saying nobody consents to being mugged by making the conscious decision to go down a dark alley.

101 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:13:18pm

A fascinating technique used by the evercookie - it forces a browser to cache a dynamically generated PNG image that contains cookie data embedded in one of the color channels. Diabolical.

103 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:13:52pm

re: #101 Charles Johnson

A fascinating technique used by the evercookie - it forces a browser to cache a dynamically generated PNG image that contains cookie data embedded in one of the color channels. Diabolical.

It must be, I don’t understand it.

104 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:13:57pm

re: #95 Justanotherhuman

Ever google your own name?

My last name is Smith, and my first name, surprisingly, is one of the more common names given male Smiths, so I was very disappointed how many pages I had to go before I found myself.

105 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:14:57pm

re: #104 GeneJockey

My last name is Smith, and my first name, surprisingly, is one of the more common names given male Smiths, so I was very disappointed how many pages I had to go before I found myself.

Your first name is Doctor?

//

106 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:15:03pm

re: #104 GeneJockey

My last name is Smith, and my first name, surprisingly, is one of the more common names given male Smiths, so I was very disappointed how many pages I had to go before I found myself.

Yes, and I’m convinced there is a bunch of erroneously generated information out there. There can’t be more than 1 of me, with my first, middle and last name. Yet the internet tells me there is.

107 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:15:06pm

re: #95 Justanotherhuman

Even someone like me, who doesn’t use a cell phone, or FB or Twitter, but still uses the internet, has something, somewhere, on the internet, even if it’s just in the White Pages or some other directory, because I have a landline. So, if you knew my name, you could find my address and phone number. Otherwise, nada. I did find out, though, that even if I think I have a unique name, there are actually about 8 others in the US with the same one.

Ever google your own name?

I’m in a similar position, there are only 6 other people in Canada and I think…maybe 10 in the U.S. with my name.

108 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:15:26pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

Your first name is Doctor?

//

Dr. John and he regularlly frequents hourly motels.

109 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:15:47pm

re: #102 Vicious Babushka

Creep Hacks Baby Monitor, Calls 2-Year-Old Girl a ‘Little Slut’

Some people have entirely too much time on their hands…

110 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:15:53pm

re: #96 GeneJockey

Pretty sure that’s where she found it. The thing is, the default is to include it, so you have to be able to figure out how to find it and turn it off.

And let’s face it - a lot of smartphones are owned by dumb humans. Like the girl who lived with us for a while, who, while out to dinner with my wife, posted “I’m bored!” to Facebook, forgetting that my wife is one of her FB friends.

yes, I gathered is that the location thingie is the default, but everyone on my newsfeed freaking out about it had no difficulty in turning it off.

111 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:15:54pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

Your first name is Doctor?

//

Oh! Will! We’ll all be killed!

112 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:16:10pm

re: #101 Charles Johnson

A fascinating technique used by the evercookie - it forces a browser to cache a dynamically generated PNG image that contains cookie data embedded in one of the color channels. Diabolical.

Evil grandchild of microdots and steganography.

113 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:17:01pm

re: #112 Decatur Deb

Evil grandchild of microdots and steganography.

That totally sounds like a fancy word meaning “to draw dinosaurs”.

114 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:17:41pm

re: #110 Backwoods_Sleuth

yes, I gathered is that the location thingie is the default, but everyone on my newsfeed freaking out about it had no difficulty in turning it off.

This is a good example of why I think the whole data tracking thing is a bunch of hooey. Ok, maybe we could use it to sort the street smart from the non-street smart.

115 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:18:46pm

re: #113 Eclectic Cyborg

That totally sounds like a fancy word meaning “to draw dinosaurs”.

State-of-the-Art, for probably a week.

en.wikipedia.org

116 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:19:23pm

re: #95 Justanotherhuman

Even someone like me, who doesn’t use a cell phone, or FB or Twitter, but still uses the internet, has something, somewhere, on the internet, even if it’s just in the White Pages or some other directory, because I have a landline. So, if you knew my name, you could find my address and phone number. Otherwise, nada. I did find out, though, that even if I think I have a unique name, there are actually about 8 others in the US with the same one.

Ever google your own name?

Back before the internet, or before I had access to it anyway, I lived in a town where there was another person with my name. I used to get her phone calls sometimes, because we both had landlines and were listed in the book. Like everyone back then.

Speaking of expectations of privacy, back then you had to pay extra to be left out of the book.

117 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:19:29pm

re: #106 FemNaziBitch

Yes, and I’m convinced there is a bunch of erroneously generated information out there. There can’t be more than 1 of me, with my first, middle and last name. Yet the internet tells me there is.

There is exactly one other person in the world who has my name.
She’s German and some sort of physicist who has written loads of peer-reviewed stuff.

118 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:19:45pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

State-of-the-Art, for probably a week.

en.wikipedia.org

Someone has been reading entirely too much Neal Stephenson.

119 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:20:31pm

re: #106 FemNaziBitch

Yes, and I’m convinced there is a bunch of erroneously generated information out there. There can’t be more than 1 of me, with my first, middle and last name. Yet the internet tells me there is.

Everywhere I’ve gone, there’s been another ‘Doug Smith’ either before or after me.

College - Senior year, they hired a Chem prof by that name.

Grad School - another one a year ahead of me.

Three companies in succession hired one after I left. Twice it was the same guy, but still!

120 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:20:56pm

re: #117 Backwoods_Sleuth

There is exactly one other person in the world who has my name.
She’s German and some sort of physicist who has written loads of peer-reviewed stuff.

I find that many of my clones currently live at addresses that used to be mine. Other’s have set up permanent residence at places I’ve travelled. Others, I have no idea about.

121 gunnison  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:21:09pm
I have the Ghostery extension installed as well, and it confirms that The Guardian’s pages have 27 different corporate tracking widgets installed.

The most # of trackers that I’ve ever had Ghostery display on

any article at all

in the Guardian is 14.
The XKeyscore piece shows 13 consistently.

Here right now LGF is showing 10.

Other folks I know tell me that Ghostery shows more trackers on their systems than it shows on mine when we’re both on the same web page.
Why is that, anyone know?
Does the ISP make a difference? I don’t know how this stuff works really, but Ghostery on my system routinely gives a lower count than what other people using it say they’re getting.

122 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:21:19pm

re: #100 Targetpractice

It’s correct in the sense that they didn’t say “Monitor me all you like” when they access a public website. But that’s a bit like saying nobody consents to being mugged by making the conscious decision to go down a dark alley.

muggers don’t have a legal right to mug you just because you chose to go down a dark alley

but i think what we have aired here is that:

1) when you contract for a carrier service you are probably signing a document that explicitly gives the carrier the legal right to use information about you as it sees fit. contract law is well settled and we should all read everything we sign in detail before signing it (as my lawyer father drummed into my thick head)

2) when you log onto a web page, information about you and your visit may, and most likely will, be logged and resold or otherwise re-used for commercial purposes, not because you gave consent, but because it is, apparently, legal for them to do so without your consent

agreed?

123 gunnison  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:22:01pm

mangled format. sorry

124 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:22:01pm

re: #116 wrenchwench

Yes, non-published numbers—I did that for years. If they were “unlisted” all anyone had to do was call information.

Hey, I’m old enough to remember when a private, or non-party line, only cost $4.50/mo, too. : ) But the long distance calls could get expensive.

125 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:22:06pm

re: #118 FemNaziBitch

Someone has been reading entirely too much Neal Stephenson.

Only one, but it was Cryptonomicon. The text in the Baroque Cycle was too small.

126 Lidane  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:22:18pm
127 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:22:47pm

re: #122 engineer cat

muggers don’t have a legal right to mug you just because you chose to go down a dark alley

but i think what we have aired here is that:

1) when you contract for a carrier service you are probably signing a document that explicitly gives the carrier the legal right to use information about you as it sees fit. contract law is well settled and we should all read everything we sign in detail before signing it (as my lawyer father drummed into my thick head)

2) when you log onto a web page, information about you and your visit may, and most likely will, be logged and resold or otherwise re-used for commercial purposes, not because you gave consent, but because it is, apparently, legal for them to do so without your consent

agreed?

I believe it falls into the same category as having no expectation that you will not fall under surveillance in a public place.

128 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:23:37pm

re: #127 GeneJockey

I believe it falls into the same category as having no expectation that you will not fall under surveillance in a public place.

Because you are in a public place.

129 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:24:38pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb

Only one, but it was Cryptonomicon. The text in the Baroque Cycle was too small.

The audio has big letters.

130 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:25:05pm

re: #124 Justanotherhuman

Yes, non-published numbers—I did that for years. If they were “unlisted” all anyone had to do was call information.

Hey, I’m old enough to remember when a private, or non-party line, only cost $4.50/mo, too. : ) But the long distance calls could get expensive.

“unlisted numbers” used to be a big deal.

131 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:25:45pm

re: #129 FemNaziBitch

The audio has big letters.

And I still don’t understand half of it.

132 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:26:07pm

re: #119 GeneJockey

Everywhere I’ve gone, there’s been another ‘Doug Smith’ either before or after me.

College - Senior year, they hired a Chem prof by that name.

Grad School - another one a year ahead of me.

Three companies in succession hired one after I left. Twice it was the same guy, but still!

I lived in a coed dorm in college. There were six Davids on my floor, two of them with the last name of ‘White’. There were two phones on the floor, in the stairwell. If the caller asked for ‘David White’, we’d ask, ‘White David White or black David White?’

133 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:26:31pm

re: #122 engineer cat

muggers don’t have a legal right to mug you just because you chose to go down a dark alley

but i think what we have aired here is that:

1) when you contract for a carrier service you are probably signing a document that explicitly gives the carrier the legal right to use information about you as it sees fit. contract law is well settled and we should all read everything we sign in detail before signing it (as my lawyer father drummed into my thick head)

2) when you log onto a web page, information about you and your visit may, and most likely will, be logged and resold or otherwise re-used for commercial purposes, not because you gave consent, but because it is, apparently, legal for them to do so without your consent

agreed?

Gene pretty much gave my answer, when you enter a public place, you can’t argue that you didn’t give consent to being monitored.

134 Lidane  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:26:43pm

Dudebro head explosions in 3…2…1…


“But he called Snowden a patriot! How can he support Clinton?!”

////

135 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:27:52pm

re: #121 gunnison

The most # of trackers that I’ve ever had Ghostery display on

in the Guardian is 14.
The XKeyscore piece shows 13 consistently.

Here right now LGF is showing 10.

Other folks I know tell me that Ghostery shows more trackers on their systems than it shows on mine when we’re both on the same web page.
Why is that, anyone know?
Does the ISP make a difference? I don’t know how this stuff works really, but Ghostery on my system routinely gives a lower count than what other people using it say they’re getting.

A screenshot:

Image: ZZ04822312.jpg

136 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:27:58pm

re: #127 GeneJockey

I believe it falls into the same category as having no expectation that you will not fall under surveillance in a public place.

can the fact that you took a walk in central park be recorded and re-sold to a company for profit? can a company that bought the information that you took a walk in central park then use it for commercial purposes?

137 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:28:43pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb

Only one, but it was Cryptonomicon. The text in the Baroque Cycle was too small.

I’m rereading that for the nth time now. On my kindle. Where font is adjustable.

138 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:29:03pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

Gene pretty much gave my answer, when you enter a public place, you can’t argue that you didn’t give consent to being monitored.

see above: being “monitored” is not the same as having the fact that you were there recorded and re-sold, and used in a marketing campaign

139 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:29:08pm

re: #136 engineer cat

can the fact that you took a walk in central park be recorded and re-sold to a company for profit? can a company that bought the information that you took a walk in central park then use it for commercial purposes?

Yes, and yes.

140 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:29:26pm

re: #136 engineer cat

can the fact that you took a walk in central park be recorded and re-sold to a company for profit? can a company that bought the information that you took a walk in central park then use it for commercial purposes?

Sure. If I shoot a video and catch you in a scene, do I have to run up to you and ask your permission to post the video on Youtube?

141 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:29:39pm

re: #136 engineer cat

can the fact that you took a walk in central park be recorded and re-sold to a company for profit? can a company that bought the information that you took a walk in central park then use it for commercial purposes?

Probably. Why would they not?

142 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:30:28pm

re: #137 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m rereading that for the nth time now. On my kindle. Where font is adjustable.

Yes, but They know where you are when you’re reading it.

143 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:30:43pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

Sure. If I shoot a video and catch you in a scene, do I have to run up to you and ask your permission to post the video on Youtube?

And when you go viral ignatz will be jealous!

;)

144 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:31:46pm

re: #142 Decatur Deb

Yes, but They know where you are when you’re reading it.

I’m in the Baroque Cycle. I’m totally confused on how Calculus has anything to do with Derivatives, but then again, I barely made it thru Algebra.

145 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:32:18pm

re: #142 Decatur Deb

Yes, but They know where you are when you’re reading it.

THE HORROR!

146 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:32:56pm

re: #144 FemNaziBitch

I’m in the Baroque Cycle. I’m totally confused on how Calculus has anything to do with Derivatives, but then again, I barely made it thru Algebra.

Derivatives and integrals are basically the two halves of calculus.

147 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:33:03pm

Lidane, if you are still here, read my last couple of posts on the last thread, re: pies.

148 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:33:27pm

re: #146 EPR-radar

Derivatives and integrals are basically the two halves of calculus.

I took latin, not greek.

149 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:33:29pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

Sure. If I shoot a video and catch you in a scene, do I have to run up to you and ask your permission to post the video on Youtube?

if your image is to be used in a commercial context, the company using it is required to get a release from you or else blur out your face - no?

150 gunnison  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:33:40pm

re: #135 Charles Johnson

No need for the screenshot Charles, I believe you and also the other folks I know (some of them very well) who report higher ghostery counts than I get.
My settings are to detect everything that ghostery can detect, so it’s not that.

I just was wondering what might be the reason for that.
The only difference I can put a finger on is that I’m the only one using a satellite ISP. Maybe that’s it. I have no idea.

151 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:33:46pm

re: #139 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yes, and yes.

try it!

152 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:34:38pm

re: #149 engineer cat

if your image is to be used in a commercial context, the company using it is required to get a release from you or else blur out your face - no?

On the photoblog I frequent, the professionals told me that if it is taken in public, all is fair in love and war.

153 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:34:41pm

re: #144 FemNaziBitch

I’m in the Baroque Cycle. I’m totally confused on how Calculus has anything to do with Derivatives, but then again, I barely made it thru Algebra.

Calculus is like derivatives in reverse.

I handled algebra, trig, etc. in school sort of intuitively - it just made sense at that level and I got it and could do it without a lot of extra work. Integral calculus made sense explained as an intellectual thing, but I could only get the problems right after a grinding amount of effort and practice - which is why I ended up taking that class twice in college.

154 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:34:43pm

re: #151 engineer cat

try it!

Okay. Can you be more specific? What law do you think I’d be breaking if I sat in Central Park with some image recognition software, matched up people’s names to their online presences, and then sold that data to a company?

155 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:34:52pm

re: #107 Eclectic Cyborg

When I google my last name, 20-30% of the hits on the first few pages are for my parents.

156 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:34:55pm

re: #149 engineer cat

if your image is to be used in a commercial context, the company using it is required to get a release from you or else blur out your face - no?

Crowd shots at protests and other events, run on news shows by commercial networks don’t ask for your permission.

157 thedopefishlives  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:34:56pm

Afternoon Lizardim from the beautiful wild north country. I truly do love life in the Midwest - both upper and lower have their charms, and it’s God’s own country here in the heart of the United States. How go things among the lizardfolk on this most lovely afternoon/evening?

158 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:35:20pm

re: #149 engineer cat

if your image is to be used in a commercial context, the company using it is required to get a release from you or else blur out your face - no?

yes. Editorial use does not require a release, but commercial use of an image definitely does.
However…monitoring your public use of something for commercial use is not the same as using your actual image.

159 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:35:26pm

re: #117 Backwoods_Sleuth

There is exactly one other person in the world who has my name.
She’s German and some sort of physicist who has written loads of peer-reviewed stuff.

My daughter-in-law has the same name as me.

To avoid confusion in the family, I use my middle initial.

160 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:35:41pm

re: #144 FemNaziBitch

I’m in the Baroque Cycle. I’m totally confused on how Calculus has anything to do with Derivatives, but then again, I barely made it thru Algebra.

Can see how audio would make that even harder.

161 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:36:04pm

When to Use a Release

Whether you need to obtain a release depends on why you want to use a person’s name or image. If your use is for commercial purposes—for example, using a person’s photo in an advertisement—you need to obtain a release. If your use is for informational purposes such as a documentary film or news article, you may not need a release. However, even if a release is not required, you should be careful that your use does not defame or invade the privacy of the individual. If there’s any potential that your use might violate these laws, a release will provide legal protection. Sorting out these differences can be confusing; examples are provided below. When in doubt, however, obtain a signed release

so why is it legal to record that i have visited a website and sell that information to a third party without explicit permission?

162 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:36:26pm

re: #153 Feline Fearless Leader

Calculus is like derivatives in reverse.

I handled algebra, trig, etc. in school sort of intuitively - it just made sense at that level and I got it and could do it without a lot of extra work. Integral calculus made sense explained as an intellectual thing, but I could only get the problems right after a grinding amount of effort and practice - which is why I ended up taking that class twice in college.

I used to think that some day, I’d find out why I can’t see to comprehend the language of numbers. A couple of decades ago, I researched how to go about doing this and found some Phd’s I’d have to pay cash to. I didn’t have the money at the time. Now, I don’t have the brain.

ah well. life is still good.

163 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:36:28pm

re: #152 FemNaziBitch

On the photoblog I frequent, the professionals told me that if it is taken in public, all is fair in love and war.

only in an editorial context. Once your image is used commercially, a signed release is required.

164 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:36:43pm

re: #158 Backwoods_Sleuth

yes. Editorial use does not require a release, but commercial use of an image definitely does.
However…monitoring your public use of something for commercial use is not the same as using your actual image.

apparently not, but why not?

165 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:36:47pm

re: #155 EPR-radar

When I google my last name, 20-30% of the hits on the first few pages are for my parents.

Your name is Dr. Spock?

166 Lidane  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:36:51pm

Raving. Freakazoid. Nut. Sandwich.

167 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:37:16pm

re: #152 FemNaziBitch

On the photoblog I frequent, the professionals told me that if it is taken in public, all is fair in love and war.

News photography is wide open, with the expectation that the editors still have a shred of human decency.

168 Kragar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:37:30pm

Fox News shocked and horrified that Transgender people have rights

“I don’t know where to start on this, Michelle, because there seems to be so many questions around this,” host Clayton Morris observed. “Is this children who consider themselves a different gender and have not gone through some sort of surgery? Is it a child who is conflicted about their sexuality and chooses one day to use the boys’ bathroom as opposed to a girls’?”

“There is such an impetus to pander to political correctness,” Malkin explained. “I think this is social engineering run amuck. Apparently according to the bill that was signed, transgender is defined anyway they way to! As long as a child has the self-perception that they are transgender, they will be able to go into any bathroom that they want. Really, I think it’s a usurpation of local, parental and community control.”

“Five-year-olds are now exposed to — I don’t know — ‘What is transgender? Hey mommy, what is transgender? Am I transgender?’” co-host Eric Bolling asked, adding that it was “very scary, slippery slope.”

“And also, we know that kids like to pull pranks,” co-host Gretchen Carlson pointed out. “Can you imagine now, the boys want to go into the girls bathroom and the girls want to go into the boys bathroom, and they can just say, ‘Oh, well, I was transgender for the moment.’”

“I just can’t get my head around this,” Carlson admitted.

169 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:37:42pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

News photography is wide open, with the expectation that the editors still have a shred of human decency.

Well, that’s a forlorn hope.

170 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:38:06pm

re: #154 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. Can you be more specific? What law do you think I’d be breaking if I sat in Central Park with some image recognition software, matched up people’s names to their online presences, and then sold that data to a company?

conversely, why should i assume that that’s legal?

where is the statute or case law on the subject?

171 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:38:10pm

re: #161 engineer cat

When to Use a Release

Whether you need to obtain a release depends on why you want to use a person’s name or image. If your use is for commercial purposes—for example, using a person’s photo in an advertisement—you need to obtain a release. If your use is for informational purposes such as a documentary film or news article, you may not need a release. However, even if a release is not required, you should be careful that your use does not defame or invade the privacy of the individual. If there’s any potential that your use might violate these laws, a release will provide legal protection. Sorting out these differences can be confusing; examples are provided below. When in doubt, however, obtain a signed release

so why is it legal to record that i have visited a website and sell that information to a third party without explicit permission?

Because they’re not using your name or image.

172 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:38:56pm

re: #161 engineer cat

When to Use a Release

Whether you need to obtain a release depends on why you want to use a person’s name or image. If your use is for commercial purposes—for example, using a person’s photo in an advertisement—you need to obtain a release. If your use is for informational purposes such as a documentary film or news article, you may not need a release. However, even if a release is not required, you should be careful that your use does not defame or invade the privacy of the individual. If there’s any potential that your use might violate these laws, a release will provide legal protection. Sorting out these differences can be confusing; examples are provided below. When in doubt, however, obtain a signed release

so why is it legal to record that i have visited a website and sell that information to a third party without explicit permission?

Let me interpret:

“The legality of using public images for commercial purposes is determined by the jurisdiction, the persons involved and the caliber of attorneys they employ.”

173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:39:29pm

re: #170 engineer cat

conversely, why should i assume that that’s legal?

where is the statute or case law on the subject?

There isn’t case law on the subject because there’s no hint of illegality. What would you sue under? What damage has been done to you?

174 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:40:06pm

re: #168 Kragar

“I just can’t get my head around this,” Carlson admitted.

So many tangents, so little time.

175 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:41:14pm

re: #171 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Because they’re not using your name or image.

Exactly. Same as if you use your phone to make a call, the data is the number doing the dialing, the number dialed, and the duration of the call. If I make a call from my sister’s cellphone, it will show up as her number, not mine. Likewise if I access a website, the information recorded at the site will pertain to the computer used, not so much the user unless the user registers in some way, in which case most registration forms include all the “You consent to…” verbage.

176 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:45:08pm

re: #172 FemNaziBitch

re: #173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

re: #175 Targetpractice

the net result is that it is legal for a company to record that you have visited a website, and resell or otherwise re-use that information for commercial purposes without any need for permission from you

got it

now, my questions are 1) how was it determined that that is legal and 2) why are we ok with it?

177 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:46:07pm

This conversation has honestly taken a turn for the pointless.

178 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:46:39pm

re: #173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

There isn’t case law on the subject because there’s no hint of illegality. What would you sue under? What damage has been done to you?

your privacy has been violated: information about your personal activities has been recorded without your explicit agreement and sold to others for commercial purposes

it may not be illegal but i don’t like it and i would like to be able to stop it

179 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:46:49pm

re: #176 engineer cat

the net result is that it is legal for a company to record that you have visited a website, and resell or otherwise re-use that information for commercial purposes without any need for permission from you

got it

now, my questions are 1) how was it determined that that is legal and 2) why are we ok with it?

1) Smith v. Maryland would probably be the best place to start, as it established the expectation of privacy with regards to pen registries.

2) Convenience.

180 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:47:02pm

re: #162 FemNaziBitch

I used to think that some day, I’d find out why I can’t see to comprehend the language of numbers. A couple of decades ago, I researched how to go about doing this and found some Phd’s I’d have to pay cash to. I didn’t have the money at the time. Now, I don’t have the brain.

ah well. life is still good.

The concepts aren’t as bad as the textbooks may make it seem.

A derivative is a rate of change. A good example is the speedometer in a car, which give the rate of change of the car’s position with respect to time. Thus, an automobile speedometer gives the derivative of the car’s position vs. time.

An integral is basically a sum. For example, to calculate the area of an ellipse, one can think about dividing it up into little squares and then adding up the areas of all the squares inside the ellipse. Using an integral to calculate the area of an ellipse makes this idea mathematically precise.

It turns out that derivatives and integrals are inverse operations to each other (somewhat like multiplication and division). This means that if one is given speed vs. time information for a car (e.g., a time record of the speedometer readings), one can figure out what the position vs. time of the car is by integrating speed vs. time.

181 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:47:51pm

re: #177 erik_t

This conversation has honestly taken a turn for the pointless.

it’s ok with you to have information about your personal activity recorded without your consent and sold to third parties?

182 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:48:04pm

re: #176 engineer cat

now, my questions are 1) how was it determined that that is legal and 2) why are we ok with it?

Things are assumed to be illegal unless there’s some way that it’s illegal; most of these illegalities are because they’d violate someone’s rights. No one asserts we have the right to have people not try to figure out who we are in public and use that information.

We’re okay with it because restricting that would be very difficult and serve no particular purpose.

Again, what harm can come to you from this? Are you talking about this info being sold to stalkers, or what?

183 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:48:06pm

re: #178 engineer cat

your privacy has been violated: information about your personal activities has been recorded without your explicit agreement and sold to others for commercial purposes

it may not be illegal but i don’t like it and i would like to be able to stop it

How to stop it? Go off-the-grid. Make it illegal? Good luck, because the tide is against you.

184 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:49:02pm

re: #178 engineer cat

your privacy has been violated: information about your personal activities has been recorded without your explicit agreement and sold to others for commercial purposes

it may not be illegal but i don’t like it and i would like to be able to stop it

Greenwald/Snowden 2016

185 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:49:38pm

re: #176 engineer cat

the net result is that it is legal for a company to record that you have visited a website, and resell or otherwise re-use that information for commercial purposes without any need for permission from you

got it

now, my questions are 1) how was it determined that that is legal and 2) why are we ok with it?

I think it’s legal in practice (de jure). Whether it is legal (de facto) depends on how much time and effort and money you are willing to spend to have your particular case judged in a court-of-law.

I think there is probably a term for it. The sheer number of occurances vs. people who are bothered by it. After a while, most people just accept, or ignore. It’s only when some is grievously harmed or public outrage is great enough that the government will get involved and prosecute.

186 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:49:41pm

re: #178 engineer cat

your privacy has been violated: information about your personal activities has been recorded without your explicit agreement and sold to others for commercial purposes

You weren’t in a private place, though, you were in a public one. It wasn’t a personal activity, it was a public one.

187 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:49:52pm

re: #176 engineer cat

the net result is that it is legal for a company to record that you have visited a website, and resell or otherwise re-use that information for commercial purposes without any need for permission from you

got it

now, my question is 1) how was it determined that that is legal and 2) why are we ok with it?

1) I don’t know, but likely it was never determined to be ILlegal. As Obdi said, what would your cause of action be?

2) We pay a fee to our ISPs for access to the internet. For the most part, that’s all we pay, and we get access to news, comment, information that library reference sections never dreamed of, images, videos, etc. All of that requires money, which we’re not paying, directly.

188 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:50:09pm

re: #181 engineer cat

it’s ok with you to have information about your personal activity recorded without your consent and sold to third parties?

By organizations with whom I have initiated contact? Storing, for the sake of argument, merely my IP address and the timestamp of my visit?

Yes, obviously. I don’t even know how I would construct a system that didn’t record this data this merely in the act of serving up the information.

It’s like demanding that the grocery store hand you an invisibility cloak as a condition of your shopping there.

189 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:51:40pm

re: #186 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You weren’t in a private place, though, you were in a public one. It wasn’t a personal activity, it was a public one.

visiting a web page is a public act?

190 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:52:50pm

re: #181 engineer cat

it’s ok with you to have information about your personal activity recorded without your consent and sold to third parties?

It’s the price of admission.

191 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:52:50pm

re: #189 engineer cat

visiting a web page is a public act?

Yes, except for obvious counter-examples (e.g., a secure web page for a bank account, etc).

192 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:53:15pm

re: #180 EPR-radar

The concepts aren’t as bad as the textbooks may make it seem.

A derivative is a rate of change. A good example is the speedometer in a car, which give the rate of change of the car’s position with respect to time. Thus, an automobile speedometer gives the derivative of the car’s position vs. time.

ok, I understand that.

An integral is basically a sum. For example, to calculate the area of an ellipse, one can think about dividing it up into little squares and then adding up the areas of all the squares inside the ellipse. Using an integral to calculate the area of an ellipse makes this idea mathematically precise.

can’t you do this with geometry?

It turns out that derivatives and integrals are inverse operations to each other (somewhat like multiplication and division). This means that if one is given speed vs. time information for a car (e.g., a time record of the speedometer readings), one can figure out what the position vs. time of the car is by integrating speed vs. time.

that sounds like algebra to me.

I appreciate your efforts. The thing is that the end use of all this information is nothing I’ve ever needed or wanted enough to figure out for myself. Maybe it’s just a total lack of interest instead of an inability to understand.

193 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:54:02pm

re: #189 engineer cat

visiting a web page is a public act?

yes.

194 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:54:05pm

re: #189 engineer cat

visiting a web page is a public act?

It’s a public website, open to anyone that can type in the URL. No different than strolling into a Wal-Mart.

195 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:54:59pm

re: #189 engineer cat

visiting a web page is a public act?

Yes. The webserver is not in your house, the lines connecting you to it are not in your house. The software that does the work along those lines is not owned by you. The website’s software is not owned by you. Anyone who has an internet connection and the IP address can go there. It’s a public space.

196 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:55:02pm

re: #189 engineer cat

visiting a web page is a public act?

You’re sending and receiving unencrypted information via a public utility. Nobody forces you to visit any particular site, you do that willingly.

Now you know that this is the case, so it’s also consciously. You can accept it, or not.

197 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:55:48pm

re: #188 erik_t

By organizations with whom I have initiated contact? Storing, for the sake of argument, merely my IP address and the timestamp of my visit?

Yes, obviously. I don’t even know how I would construct a system that didn’t record this data this merely in the act of serving up the information.

It’s like demanding that the grocery store hand you an invisibility cloak as a condition of your shopping there.

it’s like demanding that the grocery clerk not resell the fact that i shopped there that day to a third party for commercial purposes

you could have just answered the question directly and said “yes, it’s ok with me that when i visit a web page, that information is resold to third parties”

look, i’m very aware that i can’t do a damn thing with my cash card or browser without it being knowable and re-sell-able

i just don’t know why i should think that that’s just fine

198 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:57:09pm

re: #197 engineer cat

it’s like demanding that the grocery clerk not resell the fact that i shopped there that day to a third party for commercial purposes

you could have just answered the question directly and said “yes, it’s ok with me that when i visit a web page, that information is resold to third parties”

look, i’m very aware that i can’t do a damn thing with my cash card or browser without it being knowable and re-sell-able

i just don’t know why i should think that that’s just fine

Reposted from above:

2) We pay a fee to our ISPs for access to the internet. For the most part, that’s all we pay, and we get access to news, comment, information that library reference sections never dreamed of, images, videos, etc. All of that requires money, which we’re not paying, directly.

199 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:57:18pm

so you are all fine with it

end of discussion

200 gwangung  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:57:28pm

re: #197 engineer cat

it’s like demanding that the grocery clerk not resell the fact that i shopped there that day to a third party for commercial purposes

What right do YOU have to demand that?

Remember, the store is someone you do business with. THEY have a right to that information as well.

And this transaction is in public, after all.

You keep thinking of just yourself here. Why?

201 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:57:39pm

re: #197 engineer cat

it’s like demanding that the grocery clerk not resell the fact that i shopped there that day to a third party for commercial purposes

you could have just answered the question directly and said “yes, it’s ok with me that when i visit a web page, that information is resold to third parties”

look, i’m very aware that i can’t do a damn thing with my cash card or browser without it being knowable and re-sell-able

i just don’t know why i should think that that’s just fine

Again, if you don’t think that’s just fine, then do away with such things. Stay off the net, do all transactions in currency, and dress in clothing that makes it difficult to discern your identity in public places. Word of warning, however, that most public places tend to frown on the last as hiding ones identity is usually the act of a person intending to engage in illegal acts.

202 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:57:40pm

re: #189 engineer cat

visiting a web page is a public act?

Yes, unless you are a private server connecting with another private server over private ether waves.

Which, is something of the paranoid fantasy world none of us live in.

Remember the mafia movies —never use the phone, all conversations are face-to-face in a perceived secure location.

You’d have to set-up a Faraday Cage within a Faraday Cage and have each party enter it while wearing a Faraday suit … .

In otherwords, it’s impossible.

You could live like the unibomber, I guess.

It’s the age old individual vs. the group argument. How much freedom do you really want?

203 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:58:30pm

re: #197 engineer cat

Reasonable Expectation of Privacy | EFF Surveillance Self-Defense Project

Records stored by others. As the Supreme Court has stated, “The Fourth Amendment does not prohibit the obtaining of information revealed to a third party and conveyed by him to Government authorities, even if the information is revealed on the assumption that it will be used only for a limited purpose and the confidence placed in the third party will not be betrayed.” This means that you will often have no Fourth Amendment protection in the records that others keep about you, because most information that a third party will have about you was either given freely to them by you, thus knowingly exposed, or was collected from other, public sources. It doesn’t necessarily matter if you thought you were handing over the information in confidence, or if you thought the information was only going to be used for a particular purpose.

Therefore it is important to pay close attention to the kinds of information about you and your organization’s activities that you reveal to third parties, and work to reduce the amount of private information you leave behind when you go about your daily business.

204 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:59:13pm

re: #190 GeneJockey

It’s the price of admission.

Quite honestly, there are periodic revivals of a ‘simplicity’ movement. You don’t have to go Trappist, but a lot of people find the orchestra seats too costly.

205 erik_t  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:00:09pm

re: #200 gwangung

What right do YOU have to demand that?

Remember, the store is someone you do business with. THEY have a right to that information as well.

Exactly this. I can’t imagine a society that functions in such a paranoid and secretive way. I don’t know how it would work. I don’t know if it could work.

206 Kragar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:01:46pm

Norfolk’s rape policy was ‘Assume the victim is lying’ until last week

The city of Norfolk, Virginia only last week changed its official police policy away from assuming that victims of sexual assault are lying about what happened to them. According to Think Progress, Norfolk police classified all sexual assault claims as “unfounded” by default.

The rules changed in the wake of a case involving a 22-year-old woman who reported a sexual assault only to be told by police, “If we find out that you’re lying, this will be a felony charge.”

The woman was attacked in her home by serial rapist and diagnosed sexual sadist Roy Ruiz Loredo on April 22, 2012. Over the course of reporting the crime, police repeatedly expressed skepticism that the woman was telling the truth, even after the woman submitted to an exhaustive physical exam.

“You’re telling us a different story than you told … the other detectives,” they said to her, as well as saying “This only happened hours ago. Why can’t you remember?” Finally in frustration, the woman terminated the interview with police.

207 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:02:13pm

re: #192 FemNaziBitch

An integral is basically a sum. For example, to calculate the area of an ellipse, one can think about dividing it up into little squares and then adding up the areas of all the squares inside the ellipse. Using an integral to calculate the area of an ellipse makes this idea mathematically precise.

can’t you do this with geometry?

It turns out that derivatives and integrals are inverse operations to each other (somewhat like multiplication and division). This means that if one is given speed vs. time information for a car (e.g., a time record of the speedometer readings), one can figure out what the position vs. time of the car is by integrating speed vs. time.

that sounds like algebra to me.

I appreciate your efforts. The thing is that the end us of all this information is nothing I’ve ever needed or wanted enough to figure out for myself. Maybe it’s just a total lack of interest instead of an inability to understand.

Admittedly, few people actually need this kind of math in day to day life, so devoting effort to more relevant things is perfectly reasonable.

However, your question about geometry is an excellent one —- geometry is exactly how integrals were computed back in the days by ancient Greek mathematicians. The problem is that computing integrals this way tends to be very difficult.

The algebraic approach of using the relation between derivatives and integrals to compute integrals is often much, much easier than brute forcing the geometry of an integral.

208 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:02:14pm

re: #199 engineer cat

so you are all fine with it

end of discussion

Again, what are the grounds for saying it’s illegal? What constitutional right has been violated and what harm has been done to you?

209 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:03:18pm

re: #204 Decatur Deb

Quite honestly, there are periodic revivals of a ‘simplicity’ movement. You don’t have to go Trappist, but a lot of people find the orchestra seats too costly.

That is an option. But if you want access to all that is available on the internet for no payment, you lose the expectation that you will leave no tracks.

You accept it, or you don’t. If you don’t, there are sacrifices to be made.

210 gwangung  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:03:38pm

re: #208 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Again, what are the grounds for saying it’s illegal? What constitutional right has been violated and what harm has been done to you?

And what can you suggest that does NOT encroach on other people’s rights?

211 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:04:07pm

I think, the point of our laws is to try to secure individuals from being targeted for personal vendetta reasons. We like to think we don’t take political prisoners.

When one individual misuses power and greivously harms another person by using a government or private power that is a crime.

-In other words, An Intelligence Agent Person cannot use an unwarranted wire tap to watch Beyonce undress.

-A cop cannot use whatever power he has to make sure a Sex Worker isn’t hiding heroin in her vagina.

-A bank employee cannot peruse customer files to figure out who has been making debit charges to any particular vendor.

Of course, they do. It’s the nature of human beings. We hope to have a system that discourages such behavior as much as possible. Catches and disciplines when not possible.

212 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:04:54pm

Off the grid is not exactly an easy task in the modern world. Even assuming you do all transactions in currency, you still are presented with a bill of sale in the form of a receipt. And assuming you keep your money in a bank, there’s records of deposits, withdrawals, and all the data included in the activities for doing so. Keep it in a coffee can? You’re still being tracked by pay stubs, checks cashed, and so forth. You could get paid under the table, but even that is tracked somehow, whether it simply be in a ledger by the guy you’re working for.

In short, this expectation of absolute privacy in your daily life unless you consciously consent to being monitored is simply naive. Whether one wishes to acknowledge it or not, so many of the tools of surveillance exist for the convenience of others. Electronic bank records, electronic sales records, electronic pay records, so on and so forth. Being able to pull up a man’s pay stubs for the past two years on a monitor is quicker, easier, and less prone to error than digging through a paper file that might not have been accurately kept and might even be missing.

213 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:05:57pm

re: #208 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Again, what are the grounds for saying it’s illegal? What constitutional right has been violated and what harm has been done to you?

I understand the feeling of violation when learning of this, and the accompanying feeling that ‘things shouldn’t be this way’. It FEELS like it should be illegal, like your privacy is being violated. But I made my peace with it a while back.

214 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:06:59pm

re: #209 GeneJockey

That is an option. But if you want access to all that is available on the internet for no payment, you lose the expectation that you will leave no tracks.

You accept it, or you don’t. If you don’t, there are sacrifices to be made.

Sat through 30 yrs of increasingly scary briefings. That privacy we lost? We never had it.

215 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:07:07pm
216 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:07:24pm

re: #213 GeneJockey

It feels like it should be illegal for a lot of things that aren’t, on the face of it. Like companies just fucking lying their ass off constantly. But it’s not.

217 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:07:37pm

re: #213 GeneJockey

I understand the feeling of violation when learning of this, and the accompanying feeling that ‘things shouldn’t be this way’. It FEELS like it should be illegal, like your privacy is being violated. But I made my peace with it a while back.

I love the term “feeling of violation”

We live in a country in which men cannot agree on the definition of rape.

You think I care about internet privacy?

I think we have a issue of relevance.

218 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:09:06pm

re: #211 FemNaziBitch

I think, the point of our laws is to try to secure individuals from being targeted for personal vendetta reasons. We like to think we don’t take political prisoners.

When one individual misuses power and greivously harms another person by using a government or private power that is a crime.

-In other words, An Intelligence Agent Person cannot use an unwarranted wire tap to watch Beyonce undress.

-A cop cannot use whatever power he has to make sure a Sex Worker isn’t hiding heroin in her vagina.

-A bank employee cannot peruse customer files to figure out who has been making debit charges to any particular vendor.

Of course, they do. It’s the nature of human beings. We hope to have a system that discourages such behavior as much as possible. Catches and disciplines when not possible.

“Cannot” is the wrong word. They may not, but in a nation of 300 million, some of them absolutely will.

219 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:09:18pm

re: #214 Decatur Deb

Sat through 30 yrs of increasingly scary briefings. That privacy we lost? We never had it.

Well, to be fair, when there was no telephone, there were no wiretaps. When there was no Department of Records, you could move a few towns away and start over as whoever you said you were. But that was long ago.

220 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:09:44pm

re: #218 Decatur Deb

“Cannot” is the wrong word. They may not, but in a nation of 300 million, some of them absolutely will.

very true

221 AlexRogan  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:10:37pm

re: #205 erik_t

Exactly this. I can’t imagine a society that functions in such a paranoid and secretive way. I don’t know how it would work. I don’t know if it could work.

Because it isn’t society, it’d just be living as hermits.

222 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:11:54pm

re: #208 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Again, what are the grounds for saying it’s illegal? What constitutional right has been violated and what harm has been done to you?

It occurred to me that this is the same convoluted argument I keep hearing from people who are paranoid about the new “smart” electric meters and are refusing to allow the power companies to swap out the old meters or if they DO get the new meters, they cover them in aluminum foil (for realz!!).
Their argument is that the power company (read=ebil gubmint) has no right to spy on their electric usage…especially via some super sekret radio waves.
There’s absolutely no explaining this to them.

223 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:12:02pm

re: #221 AlexRogan

Because it isn’t society, it’d just be living as hermits.

Sovereign Citizens!!!

224 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:12:34pm

re: #217 FemNaziBitch

I love the term “feeling of violation”

We live in a country in which men cannot agree on the definition of rape.

You think I care about internet privacy?

I think we have a issue of relevance.

I’m with you on this. Just like when someone’s house is robbed of things and they say they feel “violated” or worse, “raped”. It trivializes the real act.

225 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:14:04pm

re: #219 GeneJockey

Well, to be fair, when there was no telephone, there were no wiretaps. When there was no Department of Records, you could move a few towns away and start over as whoever you said you were. But that was long ago.

But there have always been nosey neighbors ready to turn in people for whatever reason.

226 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:14:31pm

re: #224 Justanotherhuman

I’m with you on this. Just like when someone’s house is robbed of things and they say they feel “violated” or worse, “raped”. It trivializes the real act.

To a point. There is a real trauma in home invasion. Perhaps there is documented evidence for the same with information. I know the feeling of having my diary read. It’s not a good feeling.

227 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:14:47pm

re: #221 AlexRogan

Because it isn’t society, it’d just be living as hermits.

with gunz.
lots and lots of gunz.
and overly priced ammo…

228 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:14:50pm

re: #221 AlexRogan

Because it isn’t society, it’d just be living as hermits.

That aside, it IS important for people to understand that this is how the world works, that there is no real expectation of privacy in many activities, because a lot of folks do seem to have that expectation. Like the GPS info in the photo metadata, it’s something you should understand if you’re going to use the technology.

229 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:15:15pm

re: #225 Backwoods_Sleuth

But there have always been nosey neighbors ready to turn in people for whatever reason.

Like the little old lady next door who swears the family she watches obsessively through the shades are a bunch of witches?

//

230 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:15:47pm

re: #228 GeneJockey

That aside, it IS important for people to understand that this is how the world works, that there is no real expectation of privacy in many activities, because a lot of folks do seem to have that expectation. Like the GPS info in the photo metadata, it’s something you should understand if you’re going to use the technology.

I agree, it’s expectations that cause the reaction.

231 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:15:49pm

re: #222 Backwoods_Sleuth

I don’t think it’s a very convoluted argument, really. I think the problem is partially, no joke, in the name ‘e-mail’. We know that our mail is sacrosanct, we know that tampering with someone else’s mailbox, opening it and reading who it’s sent to, etc. is illegal. I think a lot of people thought those protections were inherent rights of citizens, rather than a specific limitation and right because the service is provided by the government.

232 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:16:06pm

re: #229 Targetpractice

Like the little old lady next door who swears the family she watches obsessively through the shades are a bunch of witches?

//

that bitch Mrs Kravitz…
//

233 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:16:16pm

re: #229 Targetpractice

Like the little old lady next door who swears the family she watches obsessively through the shades are a bunch of witches?

//

Power and Control. The need to feel superior.

It seems to be part of the nature of human beings.

234 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:16:32pm

re: #225 Backwoods_Sleuth

But there have always been nosey neighbors ready to turn in people for whatever reason.

I want to know who’s living next door. Someone is living next to that ax murderer, and I don’t want it to be me.

235 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:16:59pm

re: #232 Backwoods_Sleuth

that bitch Mrs Kravitz…
//

We have one of those on the board of the Homeowner’s Association. Always a source of humor.

236 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:17:50pm

re: #231 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I don’t think it’s a very convoluted argument, really. I think the problem is partially, no joke, in the name ‘e-mail’. We know that our mail is sacrosanct, we know that tampering with someone else’s mailbox, opening it and reading who it’s sent to, etc. is illegal. I think a lot of people thought those protections were inherent rights of citizens, rather than a specific limitation and right because the service is provided by the government.

well, I used “convoluted” specifically in reference to the people freaking out about the smart meters. I’m still trying to figure out how smart meters = government spying.

237 thedopefishlives  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:17:58pm

re: #235 FemNaziBitch

We have one of those on the board of the Homeowner’s Association. Always a source of humor.

What’s a Homeowner’s Association?///

238 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:18:51pm

re: #234 Justanotherhuman

I want to know who’s living next door. Someone is living next to that ax murderer, and I don’t want it to be me.

Some people don’t want to be living next door to a black person, or a homosexual. They would set up the legal system to make such things crimes to justify their insecurities and bigotry.

It’s an issue.

239 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:19:07pm

re: #237 thedopefishlives

What’s a Homeowner’s Association?///

my cats and dogs…certainly not us humans…

240 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:19:13pm

re: #236 Backwoods_Sleuth

well, I used “convoluted” specifically in reference to the people freaking out about the smart meters. I’m still trying to figure out how smart meters = government spying.

BECAUSE GODWIN!!!!!

241 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:19:47pm

re: #237 thedopefishlives

What’s a Homeowner’s Association?///

homeowner’s association.

242 thedopefishlives  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:21:02pm

re: #241 FemNaziBitch

homeowner’s association.

Sorry, I guess I should’ve added more sarc tags. They’re an evil construct that I have had the good fortune to never run into so far, and never plan to have dealings with ever.

243 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:21:08pm

re: #236 Backwoods_Sleuth

well, I used “convoluted” specifically in reference to the people freaking out about the smart meters. I’m still trying to figure out how smart meters = government spying.

In the minds of some including one (cough) congresswoman, mailmen, censustakers, and water meter readers are government agents.

244 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:22:35pm

re: #192 FemNaziBitch

ok, I understand that.

can’t you do this with geometry?

that sounds like algebra to me.

I appreciate your efforts. The thing is that the end use of all this information is nothing I’ve ever needed or wanted enough to figure out for myself. Maybe it’s just a total lack of interest instead of an inability to understand.

The area (or volume) formulas for the various classic geometric solids is pretty well known. For terms of integral calc they’re a bit like the physicists “spherical cows” since they’re uniform shapes without the fun variation found in nature.

If you want a real-world example of something that can be solved by integrals it could be something like this:

You have a railroad tankcar of cylindrical shape with rounded end caps and know dimensions (height, length, width). How can you get the volume currently in the tank car of a liquid from putting a stick into the tankcar from the top and measuring the depth of liquid in the tank.

My father, the engineer (bless his heart), fed me that one at the dinner table one night when I was a sophomore in college. I gave him an answer two years later since the solution is more than a single integral.

A decade after that I told him, “About that railcar. I go onto the site for the car leasing company, download the ‘stick table’ for the car, and go against that.” (The companies that make tank railcars publish the information correlating measured depth of liquid to volume being occupied. You can then do an additional calculation based on the specific gravity of the liquid to work out how much of it (in mass) you have as well.)

O_o gah. Trivia buried in my head still from growing up and then working with railcar freight apps for over a decade.

245 AlexRogan  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:22:48pm

re: #223 FemNaziBitch

Sovereign Citizens!!!

Worked for Ted Kaczynski, right up until the FBI found him.

246 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:22:55pm

re: #242 thedopefishlives

Sorry, I guess I should’ve added more sarc tags. They’re an evil construct that I have had the good fortune to never run into so far, and never plan to have dealings with ever.

Yes, it’s another level of “government’ I pay to control me. But I don’t have to ever worry about the lawn, snow removal, roof repair or painting the front door.

247 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:23:35pm

re: #236 Backwoods_Sleuth

well, I used “convoluted” specifically in reference to the people freaking out about the smart meters. I’m still trying to figure out how smart meters = government spying.

Easy.

Smart meters mean somebody knows when you’re using how much power, like if you’re sucking watts during peak hours. The only people who care about that are people trying to conserve power. The only people who care about conserving power are Environmentalists. Environmentalists are all Liberals. Liberals love Government. Therefore, Smart Meters = Government.

248 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:23:44pm

re: #244 Feline Fearless Leader

I pity you.

249 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:24:08pm

re: #245 AlexRogan

Worked for Ted Kaczynski, right up until the FBI found him.

Stupid bastard used the US Mail.

250 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:24:19pm

re: #208 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Again, what are the grounds for saying it’s illegal? What constitutional right has been violated and what harm has been done to you?

i already stipulated that it’s legal

i don’t like it, that’s all

251 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:24:25pm

re: #237 thedopefishlives

What’s a Homeowner’s Association?///

A festering collection of pettiness based on one’s own superiority, desire to interfere, and hatred of pink plastic flamingos.
/

252 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:26:27pm

re: #249 GeneJockey

Stupid bastard used the US Mail.

He had an optimistic expectation of privacy.

253 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:26:32pm

re: #250 engineer cat

i already stipulated that it’s legal

i don’t like it, that’s all

Well, I’m asking you what the harm done to you by this is. I fully understand the feeling, the “You shouldn’t be able to watch me do that!” but when probing for actual harm, it’s difficult.

254 thedopefishlives  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:26:44pm

re: #246 FemNaziBitch

Yes, it’s another level of “government’ I pay to control me. But I don’t have to ever worry about the lawn, snow removal, roof repair or painting the front door.

See, I like doing things like that. Speaking of which, I should quit being lazy and mow the lawn sometime soon.

255 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:26:52pm

re: #251 Feline Fearless Leader

A festering collection of pettiness based on one’s own superiority, desire to interfere, and hatred of pink plastic flamingos.
/

But not those mirror balls on birdbath pedestals, right? I can still have one of those?

256 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:28:25pm

re: #254 thedopefishlives

See, I like doing things like that. Speaking of which, I should quit being lazy and mow the lawn sometime soon.

It’s the time of day, again, at which the dogs expect food.

Just can’t seem to outsource that job.

257 GeneJockey  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:28:28pm

re: #252 Decatur Deb

He had an optimistic expectation of privacy.

Speaking of which, I saw an OUTRAGE!!! post someplace that the USPS TAKES PICTURES of the front and back of every envelope!!!!

258 AlexRogan  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:28:46pm

re: #249 GeneJockey

Stupid bastard used the US Mail.

Indeed…

259 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:29:59pm

re: #257 GeneJockey

Speaking of which, I saw an OUTRAGE!!! post someplace that the USPS TAKES PICTURES of the front and back of every envelope!!!!

And then goes and gets warrants for the nasty ones.

260 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:30:45pm

re: #248 FemNaziBitch

I pity you.

Dinner growing up was never boring. Parents played music (mix of classical, Broadway, etc.), conversation was pretty intellectual without getting political (as I remember it), and it was essentially family time. Was taught a number of necessary social graces as part of the process; setting a table, using a napkin properly, asking to be excused from the table, and eating at least a minimal serving of most of the dishes (the fabled “no thank you” helping).

That sort of slow ingestion process that takes years to sink in, you never forget, and you generally miss later in life. Plus both of my parents were readers and that tradition carried on with all my siblings and to their children as well.

And, in comparison to the wrecks that some of my friends had as families I also realize I had a pretty idyllic and strong upbringing.

261 dog philosopher  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:31:51pm

re: #253 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, I’m asking you what the harm done to you by this is. I fully understand the feeling, the “You shouldn’t be able to watch me do that!” but when probing for actual harm, it’s difficult.

did i say i felt i was “harmed” by it? i don’t think so

if you ‘understand the feeling, the “You shouldn’t be able to watch me do that!”’, that’s enough

why should i like it if somebody is collecting information about my activities and selling that information?

262 abolitionist  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:39:46pm

I routinely use NoScript and Ghostery on FireFox, but with Ghostery only reporting trackers —not blocking anything. In that way, Ghostery gives me a trackers list that helps me guess which items to continue blocking within Noscript, vs others that may provide wanted functionality via 3rd party sites.

Sometimes I use Ghostery for hints on tweeking my hosts file.

Unfortunately, while tracking vs wanted fns may often be cleanly factored between different 3rd party sites, there will be many exceptions.

263 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:41:26pm

re: #260 Feline Fearless Leader

Dinner growing up was never boring. Parents played music (mix of classical, Broadway, etc.), conversation was pretty intellectual without getting political (as I remember it), and it was essentially family time. Was taught a number of necessary social graces as part of the process; setting a table, using a napkin properly, asking to be excused from the table, and eating at least a minimal serving of most of the dishes (the fabled “no thank you” helping).

That sort of slow ingestion process that takes years to sink in, you never forget, and you generally miss later in life. Plus both of my parents were readers and that tradition carried on with all my siblings and to their children as well.

And, in comparison to the wrecks that some of my friends had as families I also realize I had a pretty idyllic and strong upbringing.

Compare and contrast:

200 of us sat at tables of 7 in a long room with The Last Supper at one end and stained glass at the other. Breakfast and lunch were in uniform, supper in play clothes. There was no talking at breakfast or lunch, to hurry the schoolday. At supper we spoke quietly for a while, then a nun walked the aisle reading to us. The book on the geneaology of Man O’ War was particularly memorable, and something about anti-communist partisans on the Hungarian plains. Each table was expected to make it’s serving bowls of very good food disappear. (Usually good, we sometimes had to bribe each other.) That was the first 5 yrs, then I went to the rough school.

264 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:43:47pm

re: #238 FemNaziBitch

I don’t care what people look like. I’m lucky to have neighbors who are friendly for the most part. Even my reclusive one who has a large beautiful dog (the only pet allowed—grandfathered in). He works from home and seldom goes out. I usually leave my neighbors alone for the most part; I’m not pushy, but everyone has introduced themselves at one time or another and always greet each other, sometimes stop for a chat, and the young guys seem to hang out together more than anyone else (drink beer, play basketball, etc). This complex is small enough (12 units) that it’s easy enough to see people on a daily basis.

265 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 3:46:09pm

re: #251 Feline Fearless Leader

A festering collection of pettiness based on one’s own superiority, desire to interfere, and hatred of pink plastic flamingos.
/

When I was house hunting, if the word “Homeowners Assn” was mentioned, the deal was off.

266 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 4:06:22pm

re: #261 engineer cat

did i say i felt i was “harmed” by it? i don’t think so

if you ‘understand the feeling, the “You shouldn’t be able to watch me do that!”’, that’s enough

Generally, only things that harm yourself or others are criminalized. There is very little reason, and a lot of problems, in criminalizing something that harms no one.

why should i like it if somebody is collecting information about my activities and selling that information?

Why are you now asking about liking it? We haven’t been talking about liking it.


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