Yet Another Misleading Guardian Report: NSA Guidelines “Not Updated for 30 Years”

The difference between “all” and “some”
World • Views: 23,717

The headline for this new story from Guardian writer Dan Roberts is … I hope you’re sitting down … highly misleading:

US Surveillance Guidelines Not Updated for 30 Years, Privacy Board Finds.

The subheading continues the deceptive theme:

Privacy watchdog points out in letter to intelligence chiefs that rules designed to protect Americans are severely outdated

Wow, that sure sounds like the NSA’s whole rulebook is 30 years out of date. I can feel the outrage growing, growing… but then I remember I should probably read the whole article before I blow a gasket because it’s the Guardian, and sure enough, tossed off in the fifth paragraph, well below the fold, we find:

It said the board had “learned that key procedures that form the guidelines to protect ‘information concerning United States persons’ have not comprehensively been updated, in some cases in almost three decades, despite dramatic changes in information use and technology”.

That’s right, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board was not complaining about the whole thing being three decades old — just “some cases.”

The Guardian somehow fails to let you in on this little detail, but the board was specifically criticizing the Reagan-era executive order 12333, which has never been superseded by newer legislation.

And it’s a valid complaint in some ways, but this one executive order is a long, long way from being the entirety of the NSA’s domestic surveillance guidelines as the Guardian clearly wants you to believe.

Here’s the Privacy Board’s letter:

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104 comments
1 Kragar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:43:25pm

The real scandal is people still listen to these dipshits

2 dog philosopher  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:44:03pm

waddaya think: europa report or world’s end?

3 Targetpractice  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:44:44pm

re: #2 dog philosopher

waddaya think: europa report or world’s end?

World’s End.

4 b_sharp  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:45:42pm

I just realized, my software hasn’t been updated in 57 years.

5 dog philosopher  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:48:19pm

re: #4 b_sharp

I just realized, my software hasn’t been updated in 57 years.

your mama so old she only output to teletype machine

6 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:48:26pm

The US Constitution hasn’t been updated in over 20 years.

7 darthstar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:49:35pm

It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing!

I’m starting to get desensitized to the term “whistle blowing”…

8 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:49:38pm

The Bible hasn’t been updated in 2,000 Years! (the book of Romney doesn’t count)

9 dog philosopher  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:50:24pm

re: #6 b.d.

The US Constitution hasn’t been updated in over 20 years.

it’s incompatible with OS X

10 darthstar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:51:01pm

re: #6 b.d.

The US Constitution hasn’t been updated in over 20 years.

10 Commandments haven’t been updated in thousands of years.

11 darthstar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:52:04pm

re: #8 b.d.

The Bible hasn’t been updated in 2,000 Years! (the book of Romney doesn’t count)

Heh…you had the same thought I did.

12 darthstar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:52:44pm

re: #8 b.d.

The Bible hasn’t been updated in 2,000 Years! (the book of Romney doesn’t count)

New American Bible - 1970.

13 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:53:42pm

re: #7 darthstar

It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing! It’s whistle blowing!

I’m starting to get desensitized to the term “whistle blowing”…

It’s like privilege. //

14 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:54:45pm

re: #12 darthstar

New American Bible - 1970.

1970!?! I bet it has some of that Women’s Lib stuff in it!

15 darthstar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:56:15pm
16 dog philosopher  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:59:39pm

your mama so old she still posts to commodore 64 user groups

17 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 5:59:50pm

The Guardian and The Observer are both old line Labor dailies out of the Midlands that hold to the old Socialist line. Hate Conservatives? Check. Loathe Thatcher? Check.

In many areas of their Editorial, I agree with them. In other areas, not. But they are there now to sell papers, and The GGs agenda and his innuendo is mother’s milk to the publishing group.

It’s frustrating for an old Lib like to me to find myself groaning at their reporting style in this storyline. They have jumped the shark, and just keep getting up and back on their skis.

18 Iwouldprefernotto  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:00:02pm

The manual for the Death Star is a gazilllion years out of date.

19 EPR-radar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:02:14pm

re: #17 austin_blue

The Guardian and The Observer are both old line Labor dailies out of the Midlands that hold to the old Socialist line. Hate Conservatives? Check. Loathe Thatcher? Check.

In many areas of their Editorial, I agree with them. In other areas, not. But they are there now to sell papers, and The GGs agenda and his innuendo is mother’s milk to the publishing group.

It’s frustrating for an old Lib like to me to find myself groaning at their reporting style in this storyline. They have jumped the shark, and just keep getting up and back on their skis.

One thing that bothers me is that I would have likely accepted all this nonsense by GG/the Guardian etc. at face value if it had occurred during the Bush years after I had soured on GW Bush.

20 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:08:27pm

re: #17 austin_blue

The Guardian and The Observer are both old line Labor dailies out of the Midlands that hold to the old Socialist line. Hate Conservatives? Check. Loathe Thatcher? Check.

In many areas of their Editorial, I agree with them. In other areas, not. But they are there now to sell papers, and The GGs agenda and his innuendo is mother’s milk to the publishing group.

It’s frustrating for an old Lib like to me to find myself groaning at their reporting style in this storyline. They have jumped the shark, and just keep getting up and back on their skis.

Newspapers often change with new owners. The change may be gradual, and dependent on current trends. How better to increase circulation during the Age of Technology than to cover hackers and those techie types who steal govt documents while working in sensitive jobs? It feeds a kind of malaise many feel as they become more and more dependent upon online communications who are wishing for more excitement. It’s little more than “gotcha” journalism.

21 darthstar  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:11:04pm
22 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:11:15pm

And do check this out:

nsfwcorp.com

Unlocked for another day.

23 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:13:29pm

I just noticed this video on Paul Canning’s link on his Page.

Youtube Video

It gave me flashbacks to my most humiliating experience in college, which of course was right after I got there.

First dance in the cafeteria, some guy asks me to dance. The song is ‘Color My World’ by Chicago, so I should have said no. He’s dancing around like Julian Assange, (but with more arm waving and twirling) and I’m just trying not to look like a total idiot. For like an hour. It’s a damn long tune, and I’ve never liked Chicago anyway.

Turned out the guy was not a student, but just some creep who hung around the campus trying to pick up girls, and everybody watching felt really, really sorry for me.

Thanks for hearing my confession. I’ll go say some Hail Marys now or something. Later, lizards.

24 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:14:00pm

You don’t update guidance that doesn’t need updating. This Army Reg went with little change for more than 40 yrs:

AR 385-70 CHANGE 1:
OPERATIONS UNMANNED FREE BALLOONS, MOORED BALLOONS AND KITES, AND UNMANNED ROCKETS, AND DERELICT FRIENDLY AIRBORNE OBJECTS

It’s a favorite.

25 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:15:03pm

Was that an adequate substitute for a lolcat, Stanley?

26 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:17:23pm

Waste of space and brain dead senator from Wisconsin Ron Johnson opinion piece:

What can be done about Obamacare?

For the majority of Americans opposed to Obamacare, it is a sad fact that as long as President Barack Obama is in the White House and Majority Leader Harry Reid’s Democrats control the Senate, repealing or defunding this monstrosity is next to impossible.

Elections have consequences. The 2008 election gave ideologically extreme Democrats the White House, a House majority and a filibuster-proof Senate, which allowed Reid to jam through Obamacare the morning of Christmas Eve 2009.

In 2012, Obama won another term and Reid maintained an iron grip on the Senate. That is a reality that cannot be ignored as strategies are developed to prevent Obamacare from taking firm or permanent root.

Even so, opportunities abound to focus attention on the true harm this law is unleashing on the average American’s health care, on our struggling economy, on the federal budget and on our personal freedoms.

His piece is so full of hyperbole and talking points that I believe it is assembled from some kind of right wing text generator.

27 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:18:11pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

And do check this out:

nsfwcorp.com

Unlocked for another day.

Sounds as though all those actors deserve each other.

28 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:19:13pm

Greensnow acolyte tweets:

29 dog philosopher  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:21:50pm

might i venture to suggest that the commenting system here - which i am assuming the boss has coded up himself - might very well be packaged up and retailed to some other blogs which could sorely use one this good

30 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:22:26pm

Charles:

The EO could be superseded by statute or by another EO, which doesn’t require Congressional approval.

The Board found that based on current circumstances it’s time to update the EO, but even then it doesn’t necessarily mean what the Guardian wants it to mean.

The EO sets out what the intel community can and can’t do. It spells out the need to adhere to the Constitution and federal law. The updates would seem to take into account the pervasiveness of cell phones, wireless communications, and ease with which people can communicate around the world (Skype, IMs, etc.)

If anything, the next EO would be more open ended to allow the intel communities to search communications regardless of the technology involved, within the constraints of the Constitution and the need for warrants/subpoenas for US citizens and individuals located within the US. It would likely further straighten out some of the issues raised by the FISC.

31 Decatur Deb  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:23:12pm

re: #29 dog philosopher

might i venture to suggest that the commenting system here - which i am assuming the boss has coded up himself - might very well be packaged up and retailed to some other blogs which could sorely use one this good

You’re just trying to spread our lickspittle Obamabot virus.

32 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:26:35pm

re: #28 Charles Johnson

Greensnow acolyte tweets:

[Embedded content]

33 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:27:25pm
34 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:27:39pm

re: #32 Gus

If Greenwald called me stupid, I’d say thank you. Heh.

35 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:27:40pm

re: #8 b.d.

The Bible hasn’t been updated in 2,000 Years! (the book of Romney doesn’t count)

And some would say that the updates (aka WinNT -NewTestament and forward) are invalid as being incompatible with MoSes-DOS (aka the Old Testament). Only solution is a full reboot.

36 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:27:52pm

re: #30 lawhawk

Charles:

The EO could be superseded by statute or by another EO, which doesn’t require Congressional approval.

The Board found that based on current circumstances it’s time to update the EO, but even then it doesn’t necessarily mean what the Guardian wants it to mean.

The EO sets out what the intel community can and can’t do. It spells out the need to adhere to the Constitution and federal law. The updates would seem to take into account the pervasiveness of cell phones, wireless communications, and ease with which people can communicate around the world (Skype, IMs, etc.)

If anything, the next EO would be more open ended to allow the intel communities to search communications regardless of the technology involved, within the constraints of the Constitution and the need for warrants/subpoenas for US citizens and individuals located within the US. It would likely further straighten out some of the issues raised by the FISC.

Right - from my reading of the order, it’s basically sound but needs updating to take into account new technology.

There’s a lot more to the surveillance guidelines than this one EO - but it’s telling how the Guardian focuses on it to the implied exclusion of everything else.

37 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:28:04pm

I suppose tomorrow we will know better what will happen with Syria?

38 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:28:34pm

re: #28 Charles Johnson

Greensnow acolyte tweets:

[Embedded content]

RT!

39 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:29:31pm

re: #37 ProTARDISLiberal

I suppose tomorrow we will know better what will happen with Syria?

Maybe. Things might take some time since the Russians are still trying to get both sides to stand down in Syria.

40 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:29:42pm

re: #19 EPR-radar

One thing that bothers me is that I would have likely accepted all this nonsense by GG/the Guardian etc. at face value if it had occurred during the Bush years after I had soured on GW Bush.

Well, the Patriot Act pretty much ensured that meta-data sets would be collected. How are you going to find needles in a haystack if you don’t have haystacks?

It really wasn’t, to my mind, a Rep/Dem thing at all. It was the fact that we had the shit scared out of us by 9/11 and, almost to a citizen, demanded that it not happen again. I guess my problem from the beginning was the complete lack of transparency in the FISA courts. Who was watching the watchers?

If the audits are to be believed, there were very few transgressions outside of rules-in-place. But those metrics aren’t defined.

Sigh.

A puzzlement.

41 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:31:18pm

re: #30 lawhawk

And the part the Guardian doesn’t want to consider - the new EO would be even more pervasive and invasive on foreign communications than the current one, all while adhering to the same constitutional and legal bounds it is currently.

They seem to think that the Board is saying it’s outdated means that they’ll limit what the NSA does down the road. That’s a serious misreading of the Board’s statement or intent. The job of the Board is to make sure that the intel community is doing what it needs to do - get good intel while adhering to constitutional and statutory restrictions.

Updating doesn’t have to mean limiting. It means whatever the superseding EO says it will mean.

42 Stanley Sea  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:31:57pm

re: #25 wrenchwench

Was that an adequate substitute for a lolcat, Stanley?

Yeah. But kinda sad!

43 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:32:22pm

re: #40 austin_blue

Well, the Patriot Act pretty much ensured that meta-data sets would be collected. How are you going to find needles in a haystack if you don’t have haystacks?

It really wasn’t, to my mind, a Rep/Dem thing at all. It was the fact that we had the shit scared out of us by 9/11 and, almost to a citizen, demanded that it not happen again. I guess my problem from the beginning was the complete lack of transparency in the FISA courts. Who was watching the watchers?

If the audits are to be believed, there were very few transgressions outside of rules-in-place. But those metrics aren’t defined.

Sigh.

A puzzlement.

I don’t think the truth will come out as a result of the Snowald debacle.

44 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:32:40pm

re: #39 Gus

At some point, Russia’s BSing on this simply won’t work anymore.

45 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:33:01pm

re: #40 austin_blue

And it’s not entirely crazy to think this way after a terrorist group drives airplanes into two of the tallest buildings in the US, traumatizes the entire country, and costs the US economy trillions of dollars.

But it’s time to renegotiate the privacy/security equation.

46 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:33:18pm

re: #44 ProTARDISLiberal

At some point, Russia’s BSing on this simply won’t work anymore.

And that point will probably be marked by a Tomahawk leaving a US Navy cruiser and being removed from the inventory database.

47 Amory Blaine  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:34:05pm

Milwaukee leaders discuss splitting lowest-performing schools from MPS

The lowest-performing schools in Milwaukee Public Schools could be removed from the district’s authority and placed in a state-run district, which could turn them over to charter-school operators or give them flexibility to make significant staffing and leadership changes, according to ideas on school governance discussed in private meetings this week.

Hosted by the Metropolitan Milwaukee Association of Commerce, the meetings featured guest speakers Patrick Dobard, superintendent of the 10-year-old state-run Recovery School District in Louisiana, and Elliot Smalley, chief of staff for Tennessee’s new state-run Achievement School District, which will oversee more than a dozen schools in Memphis this year.

Dobard and Smalley spoke and took questions from about 30 people in each meeting, which included state legislators and representatives from the offices of Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett and MPS Superintendent Gregory Thornton, said Tim Sheehy, president of the MMAC.

Milwaukee School Board members were not invited. But Sheehy said that was not by design.

“We didn’t do a massive outreach,” he said. “This was intended to be a briefing for folks from our education committee, and we just happened to get (Dobard and Smalley) in before the start of the school year. It was not a coalition-building exercise, but more of a word-of-mouth, broad discussion about what has happened and not happened in those communities.”

Rumors about a recovery district for MPS have been circulating for a while, and they were fueled this summer by a report commissioned by the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute, a conservative think tank.

MMMM. Members can’t wait to get their hands on that juicy, juicy tax money.

48 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:34:24pm

re: #40 austin_blue

Well, the Patriot Act pretty much ensured that meta-data sets would be collected. How are you going to find needles in a haystack if you don’t have haystacks?

It really wasn’t, to my mind, a Rep/Dem thing at all. It was the fact that we had the shit scared out of us by 9/11 and, almost to a citizen, demanded that it not happen again. I guess my problem from the beginning was the complete lack of transparency in the FISA courts. Who was watching the watchers?

If the audits are to be believed, there were very few transgressions outside of rules-in-place. But those metrics aren’t defined.

Sigh.

A puzzlement.

Well, it turns out the FISC were doing their jobs, but transparency wasn’t part of the picture. The leaks, far from showing the courts to be rubber stamps, found that they were holding the line - but that’s something that should have been made more clear and public in some fashion other than the wholesale leaks.

Providing more transparency here would be a help in the long run, but what Greenwald’s hoping for - to shut down the NSA and like agencies - would never happen.

49 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:37:25pm

re: #46 thedopefishlives

I didn’t know that BS could be shot at.

50 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:37:56pm

Saw part of the Greenwald/Miranda interview on AC360. How embarrassing.

51 thedopefishlives  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:39:38pm

re: #49 ProTARDISLiberal

I didn’t know that BS could be shot at.

Don’t tell anybody, but I wrote the targeting algorithm. Needs a special kind of detector.

52 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:40:12pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

And it’s not entirely crazy to think this way after a terrorist group drives airplanes into two of the tallest buildings in the US, traumatizes the entire country, and costs the US economy trillions of dollars.

But it’s time to renegotiate the privacy/security equation.

Oh, I agree completely! It’s the *how* of that renegotiation that is the devil-in-the-details. How much should we demand that the NSA/FISA courts back *down* when we don’t know how much they have pushed *up*?

Like I said, a puzzlement. Negotiating from ignorance is damned near impossible. If you don’t know what the threats to civil liberties look like like, it’s tough to identify which one you want modified.

53 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:42:36pm
54 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:44:30pm

re: #43 Justanotherhuman

I don’t think the truth will come out as a result of the Snowald debacle.

Nope, but we wouldn’t be splitting hairs like this if it hadn’t happened. It induced a significant increase in the pucker factor of all involved and resulted in everyone to start yakking. I can’t defend Snowden. He’s a worm, and very likely a pawn. But this discussion, at some point, had to begin.

55 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:44:48pm

re: #50 Gus

Saw part of the Greenwald/Miranda interview on AC360. How embarrassing.

For who?

56 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:45:26pm

re: #52 austin_blue

And the government is in a life and death game — they can’t afford any errors that could result in another catastrophic attack like 9/11. And that means you have to keep some secrets out of the public sphere in order to do your job of protecting the public.

I’m still hopeful that most Americans understand this reality and aren’t buying into the fucked-up nihilism of the Greenwald/Wikileaks cult.

57 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:45:38pm

re: #53 Gus

Derp.

OMG, that’s Admiralty Flag level of stupid.

58 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:48:59pm

re: #55 lawhawk

For who?

For humanity. I don’t know. Start with journalism.

59 Emoprog Refugee  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:49:36pm

So,
Greenwald has updated his wikki page recently. Or at least the “Personal” section, you know, the part where the person of interest’s parents, marriages, children, stuff like that gets discussed. So, it starts off ok — it’s about how he was born in ‘67 and lived in Fla. and where he went to school, and how his partner is David Miranda, and how they have 11 dogs they rescued off the streets. I think that’s the pre-edit section.
Then there’s the new addition that takes up fully two thirds of the Personal section, and it’s all about David Miranda’s detention in Heathrow airport.
So, for anyone keeping score, 1/3 of GG’s wikki personal section covers the first 46 years of Glenn Greenwald’s life. The other 2/3s of GG’s wikki personal section covers 9 hours of David Miranda’s life. Not that it’s all that important, I just find it a little odd. I guess the incident really, really, reaaallly put a bee in the GG’s bonnet.

Random sad thought: One of the articles on the Heathrow Major Event in the Life of the GG mentioned that David Miranda is 28. Another article mentions that the GG and he have been together in Brazil for 8 years, which means that poor Miranda has spent his entire young adult life listening to the GG fly into rages about every little thing. I’m feeling really bad for him.

60 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:52:28pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

And the government is in a life and death game — they can’t afford any errors that could result in another catastrophic attack like 9/11. And that means you have to keep some secrets out of the public sphere in order to do your job of protecting the public.

I’m still hopeful that most Americans understand this reality and aren’t buying into the fucked-up nihilism of the Greenwald/Wikileaks cult.

Agreed again. And I think most Americans understand this. What I find un-fucking believable is that many of the stoutest original defenders of the Patriot Act are now the most Shocked! Shocked! at how it logically played out given its mandates. Again, you can’t find a needle in a haystack without a haystack. Otherwise, the needle might not be in it.

As for the Tea Party, this is their bread and butter. How is it that The GG’s nihilism is embraced by the TP?

Strange bedfellows, indeed!

61 dog philosopher  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 6:58:01pm

re: #60 austin_blue

Agreed again. And I think most Americans understand this. What I find un-fucking believable is that many of the stoutest original defenders of the Patriot Act are now the most Shocked! Shocked! at how it logically played out given its mandates. Again, you can’t find a needle in a haystack without a haystack. Otherwise, the needle might not be in it.

As for the Tea Party, this is their bread and butter. How is it that The GG’s nihilism is embraced by the TP?

Strange bedfellows, indeed!

i haven’t poked around freeperville on the subject too much but i expect the rationalization is that the “patriot” act is hunky dory but that obama has ‘extended’ it in some liberal fascist manner that while they might not be sure what it is, it’s bad because the obama did it qed

62 Emoprog Refugee  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:11:36pm

re: #59 Emoprog Refugee

Actually, I’ve got to link to it (hope I did that right) and quote from it because it’s just such a strange entry for a personal section, it’s written in such twisted prose, and it somehow manages to link destruction of the Guardian’s hard drives by government thugs(eleventy) to the detention of Miranda.

In August 2013, after the Guardian disobeyed Prime Minister David Cameron who via his cabinet secretary Jeremy Heywood ordered the Guardian must destroy or surrender computer hard drives containing Snowden files,[31][32] the Metropolitan Police Service detained his partner Miranda, 28, at London’s Heathrow Airport under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000, while he was travelling home from Berlin where he had been assisting US film-maker Laura Poitras, also Greenwald’s collaborator on the Snowden files.[33][34][35] DVDs of two of her films - The Oath and My Country, My Country - were also seized alongside with his phone, laptop and camera, and having been required to disclose the passwords to his personal computers, phone and encrypted storage devices.

OK, I’ll shut up about it now, but do you see what I mean?

63 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:12:54pm

I found Sweden’s response to the Chemical Attack to be very telling.

The Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said on his blog that it was an gas attack and that U.N team must inspect immediately “When I tried to evaluate the information available, I find it difficult to come to any other conclusion than that a lethal chemical substance has been used in the attack regime forces during the night between Tuesday and Wednesday conducted against it by the opposition-controlled territory.” Former U.N Inspector Hans Blixt says in the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet that no one is going to act millitary and the U.N sanctions is toothless. The Swedish Defence Research Agency Middle East expert Magnus Norell says that “Taking things through the UN Security Council is just an excuse to not do something, because you know that the veto will. Yesterday refrained from requiring admission, man “called” only. It’s clear that Assad doesn’t care about the U.N.” Bildt said he believes that the Syrian president helped coordinate the attacks, though the U.N. has not been allowed into Ghouta yet.

We now have a government official in their Defense Ministry calling for people not to go to the UNSC. That has never happened before. Sweden is a big supporter of the UN.

64 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:23:04pm

re: #63 ProTARDISLiberal

I do want to note that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Martin Dempsey, doesn’t find the FSA to be trustworthy.

If we do something with Syria, I expect the Kurds to be involved.

65 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:23:18pm

And I killed the thread. :(

66 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:25:08pm

re: #65 ProTARDISLiberal

And I killed the thread. :(

Drones are on the way.

67 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:27:25pm
68 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:27:56pm

That’s right folks, emptywheel is talking about us.

69 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:28:17pm

re: #63 ProTARDISLiberal

I found Sweden’s response to the Chemical Attack, and it is very, very telling.

We now have a government official in their Defense Ministry calling for people not to go to the UNSC. That has never happened before. Sweden is a big supporter of the UN.

Well, the peace-loving Irish and the cowardly Swedes stayed out of WWII..

///

I don’t think that the US has any choice but to initiate an attack on Damascus. The question is whether it will be a stand-off attack using ship-launched cruise missiles out of USN assets in the Med or if it will be a be a more precision B-2 sortie (with EA6-B air defense fuckers punching a hole for it) into the City. Sunday may be a traditional day of rest, but I think it will be a busy time for the USN/AF.

Blue skying, here, but it’s what I would do. A measured response. Assad needs to get his chinless ophthalmologist’s nose bloodied.

70 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:29:13pm

re: #68 Gus

That’s right folks, emptywheel is talking about us.

Oh no. Please no.

71 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:30:15pm

Wait a second. That NSFW article— Glenn Greenwald really did a speaking tour moderated by the same Jack Hunter that is the “Southern Avenger”?

Wow.

72 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:31:30pm

re: #70 Charles Johnson

Oh no. Please no.

73 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:31:37pm

re: #70 Charles Johnson

Oh no. Please no.

Wherever shall we go? Whatever shall we do? As God’s witness, we shall nevah be poah again!

74 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:31:49pm

re: #68 Gus

That’s right folks, emptywheel is talking about us.

There’s no hope for emptywheel, she’s swallowed the hook.

When FDL’ers start referring to her as the fringe then you know you’ve gone off the deep end.

75 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:33:21pm

re: #71 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Wait a second. That NSFW article— Glenn Greenwald really did a speaking tour moderated by the same Jack Hunter that is the “Southern Avenger”?

Wow.

Maybe, pending verification.

76 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:33:29pm

re: #69 austin_blue

Sweden was surrounded by two nasty authoritarian nations, and both of its neighbors were attacked by them. They did do some good in WWII, so I don’t hold it against them. A tiny nation like Sweden between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union would have rolled over them if they had decided to attack.

77 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:33:38pm

re: #70 Charles Johnson

Oh no. Please no.

I think this page really upset her. Weird.

78 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:34:50pm

re: #68 Gus

emptywheel

You sir, have offended my honor!
Prepare for fisticuffs!

79 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:35:15pm

re: #75 Charles Johnson

Vimeo

80 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:35:21pm

re: #77 Gus

Facts can be very irritating things.

81 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:35:23pm

re: #73 austin_blue

Wherever shall we go? Whatever shall we do? As God’s witness, we shall nevah be poah again!

I think the only logical thing left for us to do is to change our name to Chelsea.

82 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:37:50pm

Okay I’m not saying I have super high standards for myself but I’d never appear onstage with a guy named “The Southern Avenger”. There’s no cause good enough. Avenger. Vengeance. For the South. Yeah.

83 jaunte  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:38:05pm

re: #72 Gus

Nice badge, Gus.

84 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:39:25pm

re: #83 jaunte

Nice badge, Gus.

[Embedded content]

Tanks.

85 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:39:34pm

re: #76 ProTARDISLiberal

Sweden was surrounded by two nasty authoritarian nations, and both of its neighbors were attacked by them. They did do some good in WWII, so I don’t hold it against them. A tiny nation like Sweden between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union would have rolled over them if they had decided to attack.

You did see the sarc tags (three of them!), yes?

86 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:39:39pm

re: #82 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Post a Page - guaranteed promotion.

87 Shvaughn  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:40:36pm
88 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:42:24pm

I can hardly believe what I just saw. Glenn Greenwald on a panel moderated by an outright neo-Confederate white supremacist.

Things are starting to get weird enough.

89 jaunte  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:43:48pm

re: #82 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay I’m not saying I have super high standards for myself but I’d never appear onstage with a guy named “The Southern Avenger”. There’s no cause good enough. Avenger. Vengeance. For the South. Yeah.

It runs in the family:
Image: JackHunter_RonPaul.jpg

90 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:45:08pm

Now downloading the video because nobody should be surprised if it gets deleted.

91 Bubblehead II  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:45:45pm

Night Lizards.

Feeling a bit on the down side.

May the Deity of your choice smile down upon you and yours.

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Sleep well.

92 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:47:42pm

Memes: The #Emptywheel, World Net Daily, Weekly Standard Oath Taking Brennan #Derp Fest

93 Teukka  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:49:24pm

re: #76 ProTARDISLiberal

Sweden was surrounded by two nasty authoritarian nations, and both of its neighbors were attacked by them. They did do some good in WWII, so I don’t hold it against them. A tiny nation like Sweden between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union would have rolled over them if they had decided to attack.

Clarification: Sweden had Nazi occupied Norway to the west, and Finland to the east, which part of the war sided with the Nazis, but then ran them out as one of the conditions of peace in 1944 with the Soviet union. My country lost two big pieces of land to russia for siding with the nazis, and the nazis also made sure my country paid when we ran them off our territory (one of the reasons the formal state of war with Germany didn’t end until 1956 something). It was at no time occupied by either.

As to Sweden, one shudders when one realizes how close to a Nazi invasion the country got. The Germans had actually made plans for concentration camps on Swedish territory. One false move and…
And yeah, it is unusual for Bildt to be this outspoken, he is quite teflon-y usually.

94 jaunte  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:50:52pm

re: #92 Gus

Because taking an oath on a historical document means you get to ignore every law that was written after that document?

95 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:51:41pm

re: #94 jaunte

Because taking an oath on a historical document means you get to ignore every law that was written after that document?

Yep. They don’t call it the Tea Party Left for nothing.

96 jaunte  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:52:28pm

re: #95 Gus

Absurd.

97 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:55:45pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

littlegreenfootballs.com

98 austin_blue  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 7:58:19pm

re: #81 b.d.

I think the only logical thing left for us to do is to change our name to Chelsea.

Nah. Wrong President’s daughter. I’m thinking of the 78704 South Austin heroine: Underage, drunker than $426.00, rolling around on the floor of Chuy’s mexican restaurant (macking down with another chick) on Barton Springs Road and carted off to jail by the Austin police department.

Changing our name to Jenna would make us a lot more fun.

99 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:02:44pm

re: #93 Teukka

I did an over-summary but yes.

However, in regards to Bildt, I think Sweden has been pushed to the scary place they were in during the Libyan Revolutionary War.

Yeah, Scandinavia my look nice and peaceful, but these same people were the same ones who had Europe and Persia at their mercy 1000-1200 years ago, and Sweden is the same nation that turned the 30 Years War around.

They are also the only nation to have ever locked on to an SR-71 Blackbird with a fighter, and forced the Soviet Union to back down during the “Whiskey on the Rocks” incident.

Sweden is not to be trifled with. Same goes for Denmark, Norway, and Finland.

Do not piss them off, otherwise they will rip your arm off and use it to beat you.

100 b.d.  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:03:18pm

re: #98 austin_blue

Nah. Wrong President’s daughter. I’m thinking of the 78704 South Austin heroine: Underage, drunker than $426.00, rolling around on the floor of Chuy’s mexican restaurant (macking down with another chick) on Barton Springs Road and carted off to jail by the Austin police department.

Changing our name to Jenna would make us a lot more fun.

We are all Jennas now.

101 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:05:26pm
102 Gus  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:05:57pm

Oh! Add a pic of the Southern Avenger with his mask on at the top.

103 ProTARDISLiberal  Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:11:47pm
104 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 7:49:39am

re: #39 Gus

Maybe. Things might take some time since the Russians are still trying to get both sides to stand down in Syria.

Isn’t the status quo essentially just a win for Assad though?


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