The people overseas who make your clothes are rioting…

The high cost of low price
LGF • Views: 24,077

and it’s not pretty:

Bangladesh’s government deployed paramilitary troops in the industrial belt of Gazipur to deter further protests as garment factories reopened after five days of violent demonstrations.

“The situation is now relatively calm,” Mostafijur Rahman, additional superintendent of police for Gazipur district, said in a phone interview. Television footage showed the troops patrolling streets where workers attacked factories and blocked traffic earlier this week to demand wage increases.

The government is acting after factory owners met Home Minister Muhiuddin Khan Alamgir yesterday to urge tighter security. Thousands of garment workers clashed with police this week in the industrial belt on the outskirts of Dhaka, forcing about 400 factories that supply companies such as Wal-Mart Stores Inc. to close.
“Unrest in the garment sector will be firmly dealt with,” the minister told reporters, after the meeting.

The labor unrest came five months after the collapse of the eight-story Rana Plaza factory complex killed more than 1,000 people in the worst industrial accident in the South Asian country’s history. Low wages and production costs have helped spawn the country’s $19 billion manufacturing industry that supplies global retailers with cheap clothes.

The protestors, some of whom pelted factories with bricks and blocked a highway, demanded a minimum monthly salary of 8,114 taka ($104), up from 3,000 taka now. Retailers such as Wal-Mart, Inditex SA, Gap Inc. and Hennes & Mauritz AB (HMB) source goods from Gazipur, according to Abdus Salam Murshedy, president of the Exporters Association of Bangladesh.

This is not a situation unique to Bangladesh. Similar unrest is occurring all over Asia in nations where exploitation of labor is common and more or less perfectly legal.

Halfway around the world, the American desire for cheap everything is taking a high, high human toll and sadly, most of the representatives in Washington are doing everything they can to keep the fires burning.

This is the dark side of globalization and one these countries would prefer you didn’t even know about. Like addicts to a drug, they are now hooked on billions upon billions of dollars of American manufacturing business.

Don’t expect these workers to get what they want anytime soon, but they are not alone. More demonstrations like this will take place, more workers will rise up and maybe one day they will get so loud that they can be ignored no longer.

But that day is not today, so for the time being Americans will remain oblivious as they enjoy their $3 shirts and $5 handbags.

Jump to bottom

176 comments
1 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 1:59:48pm

Thanks so much for paging this.

If we don’t think these folks matter, we need to examine our ethics.

2 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 3:37:35pm

Part of the problem is that there is really no way to know whether paying say 10% more for an item means better pay and working conditions, or just a bit more corporate profit.

One reason production moves around the world is that people do demand more pay when they can do so. China is a great example. People are still exploited, of course, but wages are rising. I recall hearing a few years ago about Chinese factory owners complaining they couldn’t find workers. At least not for the pittance they had become used to paying them… The workers had better opportunities elsewhere and not surprisingly, took them.

3 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 7:57:11pm

re: #2 calochortus

Part of the problem is that there is really no way to know whether paying say 10% more for an item means better pay and working conditions, or just a bit more corporate profit.

99% of the time this is the case.

If trickle down fails here where we have regulations that are supposed to protect the worker (even if they fail at least the law is SUPPOSED to help.) why should we fantasize that the owners in a country with effectively no regulation are going to give a rats ass about the conditions of their workers?

We need a federal law that we can only import from countries with worker protection and wage laws equal to or stronger than our own. I know, it won’t happen, but it’s what we need if we want to get back to that economic moral high ground we once held.

4 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:05:19pm

re: #3 William Barnett-Lewis

I’m not sure most people want to get back to any sort of moral high ground. We’re exceptional, you know.

5 celticdragon  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:14:47pm

Spend some time and look up what Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed and Tom Delay were doing with Chinese workers laboring in slave conditions in the US Marianas Islands.

The clothing was “made in the USA”…with slave labor under the most appalling conditions…and the GOP leadership helped make it happen.


npr.org

YDSTIE: Wendy Doromol was a schoolteacher there in the 1980s and ’90s, but became a human rights activist fighting sweatshops after guest workers on the islands came to her with tales of abuse.

Ms. DOROMOL: The barbed wire around the factories face inward so that the mostly women couldn’t get out. They had quotas that were impossible for these people to reach and if they didn’t reach them, they’d have to stay until they finished the quota and they wouldn’t be paid for that work. They were hot, the barracks were horrible. A lot of the females were told you work during the day in the garment factory and then at night you can go and work in a club and they’d force them into prostitution at night.

YDSTIE: And they also experienced things like coerced abortion?

Ms. DOROMOL: Yes, if some female got pregnant, they either had to go back to China to give birth or have a forced abortion.

6 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:18:50pm

It is comparable to flying. You want to fly for the lowest price? Here, have a sardine can.
You want the cheapest (name your product here) same story. Worker bees always get the shaft, in Bangladesh, or the USA.

7 thatthatisis  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:21:46pm

“monthly salary of 8,114 taka ($104), up from 3,000 taka now. “

These folks want a raise from 3K to 8K a month? And the salary they’re fighting for is the equivalent of $104? That means they currently make around $40 a month.

There are only 2 choices. Either that’s a typo, or God is currently building a special dorm in hell for the owners of those factories.

8 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:23:02pm

re: #7 thatthatisis

Not a typo. Therefore that special place awaits. Or should.

9 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:26:06pm

re: #8 calochortus

And, AHEM. WE are buying the products these poor souls make….

10 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:28:41pm

re: #9 Dancing along the light of day

Actually, I buy less than you might think. I sew.

Of course, then you have to ask, if these people didn’t have these jobs, what would they be doing? Would their lives be better or worse without this little bit of income? It is painfully complicated.

11 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:31:05pm

re: #7 thatthatisis

There are only 2 choices. Either that’s a typo, or God is currently building a special dorm in hell for the owners of those factories.

No, it’s not a typo. The real problem though is not the owners of the factories. It’s the owners of companies like Walmart that refuse to pay those owners enough for them to be able to pay the workers enough to live on. Yeah, the owners are milking their workers but the owners are not stealing anything even remotely like the asinine 250x margins we have in America.

Yeah, I do pray that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is true but only if the rich man who is so punished is the appropriate family member of the Waltons or the Kochs or their equivalent.

12 klys  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:32:27pm

re: #10 calochortus

Actually, I buy less than you might think. I sew.

Of course, then you have to ask, if these people didn’t have these jobs, what would they be doing? Would their lives be better or worse without this little bit of income? It is painfully complicated.

The other question to consider is: how much would this really raise prices on this end? Pennies on the dollar? A whole dollar?

It’s hard to say “well, just avoid the really cheap stuff” because it turns out a lot of the bigger brands (which cost more) also outsource to places like this. Which designer was it for the Olympic Games where the uniforms weren’t made in America and that caused a giant fuss? Wasn’t a small name, as I recall (or a cheap one).

To some extent, while I support trying to figure this out and boycott, I also support measures to inform the manufacturer that I consider this unacceptable and that I would support these workers’ efforts to unionize. But it is a terribly complex question and there are no easy answers, which is why so many people shove the damn thing under a rug and pretend it doesn’t exist (and this includes me from time to time, as much as I wish it didn’t).

13 klys  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:33:57pm

Ok, cat, if you are going to lay IN THE WAY OF ME USING THE COMPUTER and then bite and hiss at me, expect to be hissed back at.

14 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:34:11pm

re: #11 William Barnett-Lewis

Which brings me back to my post #2 about how the consumer can know where money spent actually goes. Does a T-shirt purchased from Macys at twice the price of a WalMart T include better pay for the workers along with the better quality of materials?

15 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:37:20pm

re: #14 calochortus

No, the wages are just part of the cost of the goods. I can rant on this forever…
Basically, there’s wages for the salespeople, rent on the building, freight to ship the goods, wages to manufacture, rent on the property, equiptment, etc…

16 klys  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:39:01pm

re: #15 Dancing along the light of day

No, the wages are just part of the cost of the goods. I can rant on this forever…
Basically, there’s wages for the salespeople, rent on the building, freight to ship the goods, wages to manufacture, rent on the property, equiptment, etc…

I think you two are saying the same thing there - that since only part of the cost of goods is employee wages, how do you know if an increase in the cost of the goods represents better employee wages or a higher profit for the CEO? Since we’re not given a good breakdown, we don’t know.

17 allegro  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:41:34pm

re: #15 Dancing along the light of day

No, the wages are just part of the cost of the goods. I can rant on this forever…
Basically, there’s wages for the salespeople, rent on the building, freight to ship the goods, wages to manufacture, rent on the property, equiptment, etc…

and obscene profits on “designer” crap. I will never get this designer thing that motivates people to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars for seriously ugly purses or to wear a brand on their asses.

18 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:42:31pm

As a teen I was a libertarian. I stopped being a libertarian in college because I went back overseas as an adult to the places I lived as a child…

What I saw as an adult is the way the international business stymies the economic development of these regions. Legal and extra-legal intimidation to stop unions forming. Zero job security. Dangerous conditions not just for workers, but a befouled environment for their kids to live in.

I know colonialism is the drum I often beat on, but I can’t help but see it’s continuation in these practices. Not just the wealth transfer involved, but the mindset accompanying it. The unctuous explanations on how much better things are because people can work dangerous, health-destroying jobs for slightly more pay than subsistence farming would bring. Mocking the culture of bribery and petty officialdom in India and other regions, but also viciously exploiting it to cheat even the lax standards of regulation in the countries they operate in. Every time I deal with my local companies that outsource labor, I even get to observe their contempt for little brown people trying to be successful like Americans…so even when you succeed, when you live the Indian Dream, or the Malay Dream, you’re really just a child playing at The American Dream while wearing your father’s tie.

People will pay attention now that there’s riots. They’ll tut-tut and not think about the decade of not-rioting, when those Bangladeshi garment workers tried like hell to get at their Dream. They’ll not think about how that pittance extra is now meaningless, since speculation has driven up the prices of many basic commodities, and companies are demanding more work for less, on threat of moving to another sweatshop-friendly country. In the new funhouse-mirror Protestant Ethic we have in this country, it’s their fault that market forces have rendered their labor so cheap. It’s their fault that their nation won’t develop, since so much money is lifted out of the country rather than taxed or re-circulated in the local economy. It’s their fault that international forces keep co-opting their governments to perpetuate all of the above.

Because heavens forbid we confront that we don’t have a free market and never have…and that the people that talk the loudest about having a free market are the ones that have set up this system of exploitation to start with.

19 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:43:24pm

International wages for garment workers
Bangladesh is the 3rd largest producer after China and Vietnam. Presumably retailers who are willing to pay more for garments want a higher skill level.

20 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:44:06pm

re: #17 allegro

and obscene profits on “designer” crap. I will never get this designer thing that motivates people to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars for seriously ugly purses or to wear a brand on their asses.

Status.

21 allegro  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:47:21pm

re: #20 calochortus

Status.

I see suckers.

22 Kragar  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:49:54pm

re: #20 calochortus

Status.

White T-Shirt: $5.00
White T-Shirt with sparkles: $50.00

23 calochortus  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:51:50pm

Well, in a possibly ironic twist I’m going to sign off.
My husband needs a new sweater to replace his rather worn favorite one-Shetland wool in natural browns and white. I’m in the process of spinning the yarn for it and try to do a little each evening.
Industrial revolution? What industrial revolution?

24 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:51:55pm

re: #20 calochortus

Status.

Distinction

25 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:51:58pm

re: #22 Kragar

Amazing pima cotton tee shirt $175. Sometimes it is about the quality…

26 allegro  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:56:47pm

re: #24 The Ghost of a Flea

Distinction

Wow. That is some very interesting stuff. Thanks for that link!

27 Interesting Times  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:58:10pm

re: #25 Dancing along the light of day

Amazing pima cotton tee shirt $175. Sometimes it is about the quality…

…but are they made in the same horrid sweatshop conditions as the cheap stuff? If so, it’s even more obscene to buy them at that price.

28 Carlos Danger  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 8:59:11pm

I’m getting flashbacks of that time Gus linked to some clothing site that the Guardian was plugging. Like $300 dollar plaid shirts or something.

29 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:03:47pm

re: #26 allegro

Wow. That is some very interesting stuff. Thanks for that link!

Bordieu is hard reading, but really interesting. His ideas (a continuation of Gramsci, who I’m not as familiar with) are really interesting with relation to consumerism. It’s not explicitly in La Distinction, but his ideas about cultural capital are very interesting applied to things like consumer trends like, say, fashion or the iPhone.

30 allegro  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:08:05pm

re: #27 Interesting Times

…but are they made in the same horrid sweatshop conditions as the cheap stuff? If so, it’s even more obscene to buy them at that price.

Like this?

31 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:10:16pm
But that day is not today, so for the time being Americans will remain oblivious as they enjoy their $3 shirts and $5 handbags.

Said shirts and handbags which will be thrown away in no time at all, either because of boredom, or because the quality is so low that they deteriorate quickly.

Of the few lessons in life I have learned that is worth passing on is this: buy quality.

32 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:11:24pm
33 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:18:33pm

Note: that meteor photo is apparently an old photo, not from tonight.

34 allegro  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:26:19pm

re: #31 freetoken

Said shirts and handbags which will be thrown away in no time at all, either because of boredom, or because the quality is so low that they deteriorate quickly.

Of the few lessons in life I have learned that is worth passing on is this: buy quality.

I buy to the purpose. Sometimes that means investing in higher quality/longer lasting/added feature items like a great coffeepot or vacuum cleaner that won’t choke on significant dog hair or good quality cookwear. I’ll get my money’s worth on those. Spending the money on a high quality chenille bedspread where said dogs, red wine, and soft pretzel mustard will happen to it with some frequency isn’t the best use of funds.

35 Kragar  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:43:27pm


because internet trolling is the last bastion of freedom.

36 Lidane  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:48:36pm

Tweety can be an insufferable prick, but he’s on fire here:

37 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:51:14pm

re: #35 Kragar

[Embedded content]


because internet trolling is the last bastion of freedom.

I do wonder if comments have gotten so ugly that companies have legal teams telling them to get it off their site tout-suite.

Because some of that shit is crazy, but it’s specifically the kind of crazy where someone could find something actionable.

38 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:58:53pm

Hey people it’s not just clothes. It’s sunglasses, jewelry, watches, your smartphone… On and on.

39 Targetpractice  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:01:15pm

re: #36 Lidane

Tweety can be an insufferable prick, but he’s on fire here:

[Embedded content]

Ya gotta love it, the GOP can’t make up their minds. A federal default on our debts won’t have any dire consequences and anybody saying otherwise is wrong, but a default would be so serious that threatening to push the country into one is the only leverage the GOP has to get spending concessions from Obama.

It’s one or the other, it’s not both. If it’s not a serious situation, why should Obama bow? And if it is a serious one, why are you going to allow it to happen when you have the power to stop it?

40 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:02:05pm

re: #38 Political Atheist

Everything we don’t want to “pay too much” for!

41 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:13:32pm

Most of Bangladesh will be under water in a thousand years anyway, why worry about them?

At UN Prime Minister of Bangladesh spotlights country’s development progress

In the last four and a half years, 50 million people have joined the ranks of the middle class while the average gross domestic product (GDP) rate has remained at 6.4 per cent, Sheikh Hasina, the Prime Minister of Bangladesh told the General Assembly today.

According to Prime Minister Hasina, “Bangladesh is often named as a ‘Model of Economic Development’ and the ‘Standard Bearer of South Asia’,” and Bangladesh aims to become a middle income country.

[…]

Rural women are getting health care services from digitally-connected community health clinics, while advanced cell phone technologies are also providing services to over 100 million subscribers, she said.

On the education front, girls will be provided free education up to the higher secondary level along with free textbooks and monthly stipends, she added. According to the Prime Minister, “real national development is achievable only through education.”

[…]

However, despite progress in some spheres, Bangladesh faces a calamitous future due to global warming and sea level rise. A one degree Celsius increase in temperature would lead to a metre rise of sea levels, submerging a fifth of the country and 30 million “climate migrants” would be created, she warned.

[…]

There’s going to be a lot more than one meter of sea rise in the coming centuries.

42 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:14:23pm

re: #22 Kragar

White T-Shirt: $5.00
White T-Shirt with sparkles: $50.00

Learned that from Dr Seuss.

Sneech: useless
Sneech with star on belly: the greatest thing on the beach

43 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:20:59pm

Why pay $5 for a T-shirt? I’m seeing plenty of them on Amazon for around $2.

If you’re going to go cheap, go cheap.

44 Lidane  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:26:08pm
45 darthstar  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:27:55pm

re: #43 freetoken

Why pay $5 for a T-shirt? I’m seeing plenty of them on Amazon for around $2.

If you’re going to go cheap, go cheap.

That brings up the subject of our domestic sweat shops - also called the Amazon fulfillment center - a gigantic warehouse where people are paid minimum wage to run up to 15 miles a day putting everything from “Jesus Loves You” coffee mugs to dildos into packages for express delivery (and sometimes in the same order).

46 piratedan  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:29:51pm

re: #45 darthstar

there was an excellent Rolling Stone article/expose on this about a couple of years ago… very telling and compelling story.

47 darthstar  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:33:43pm

re: #44 Lidane

[Embedded content]

They’re not crazy…they’re just a little fucked in the head.

48 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:42:41pm

re: #47 darthstar

Compared to the millions of their citizens who believe in magic numbers and buy lotto tickets, those Congressmen aren’t so different.

49 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:43:29pm

By the way my industry is in a fight for its onshore life. One of our obstacles is Made In America. If I buy some gold, make my alloy from raw metals bought here, cast/polish/set stones right here on Hill Street I might not be able to say it is Made In America. The diamonds might be from Africa or Canada or Australia. That copper might not have been from Arizona….

We are fighting for change in the regulation. So far not winning. Forgive me here, but damn it we need the freaking help. It small potatoes compared to clothes by any rational measure. But we need the value our artisans add to our culture.

50 prairiefire  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:43:47pm

re: #44 Lidane

I’ve always considered the House the “Rabble”.

51 piratedan  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:44:40pm

re: #49 Political Atheist

maybe just a change to Manufactured in America?

It still implies that the jobs are HERE, because as wealthy as we are as a nation (and damn lucky too), not everything is actually here.

52 Lidane  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:44:55pm
53 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:45:09pm

Lotto couple Lynne and John Pittiglio’s win ‘written in the stars’

A couple who scooped more than £180,000 on the Lottery have said their horoscope predicted the win.

Lynne and John Pittiglio’s horoscope read that something would happen on Friday which would have a “big impact”.

[…]

Magical thinking is a universal human trait. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was positively selected for in natural selection over the last million years.

54 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:45:57pm

re: #51 piratedan

I like your thinking but we need the accepted brand word for word.

55 Political Atheist  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:57:33pm

Oh noes I killed it…

56 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 10:59:18pm

getting that time, I am just waking up in Europe, America is going to bed…

57 sagehen  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:00:38pm

re: #53 freetoken

Lotto couple Lynne and John Pittiglio’s win ‘written in the stars’

Lynne and John Pittiglio’s horoscope read that something would happen on Friday which would have a “big impact”.

but… didn’t 1/12 of the people in the country have the same horoscope? And they didn’t all win, right?

58 BongCrodny  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:01:19pm

re: #45 darthstar

That brings up the subject of our domestic sweat shops - also called the Amazon fulfillment center - a gigantic warehouse where people are paid minimum wage to run up to 15 miles a day putting everything from “Jesus Loves You” coffee mugs to dildos into packages for express delivery (and sometimes in the same order).

Not to praise Wal-Mart but more as a point of comparison, the local Wal-Mart where I live pays its warehouse selectors $15 an hour.

The catches are that you’ve got to be willing to work up to 60 hours a week and it can be very demanding work.

If you’re young and fit, you can make decent coin working there. If you’re of Boomer-ish age and/or are of pear-shaped appearance (guilty and guilty), you’re probably going to be hitting the help wanted ads after day one.

59 BongCrodny  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:07:58pm

re: #36 Lidane

Tweety can be an insufferable prick, but he’s on fire here:

Chris Matthews Destroys GOP Congressman Over Debt Ceiling Obstruction

Dear Chuck Todd:

This is the way it’s supposed to be done.

Your pal,

Bong

60 piratedan  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:08:55pm

re: #52 Lidane

that link was awesome, tyvm for sharing that!

61 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:09:11pm

re: #57 sagehen

but… didn’t 1/12 of the people in the country have the same horoscope? And they didn’t all win, right?

Yeah… but they didn’t truly believe.

62 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:10:25pm

re: #37 The Ghost of a Flea

I do wonder if comments have gotten so ugly that companies have legal teams telling them to get it off their site tout-suite.

Because some of that shit is crazy, but it’s specifically the kind of crazy where someone could find something actionable.

Companies/organizations do not want their name associated with the low-life trolling nor do they want to hire full-time hall monitors to stuff the trolls back under their rocks.

63 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:37:56pm

If you’re looking for good American made clothing then check out Flint and Tinder and the Made Collection.

No, that stuff isn’t cheap, it’s not supposed to be. Most of it isn’t “designer” either, it’s just quality shit made here, by Americans. If you’ve got money, don’t have mouths to feed or are willing to cut out some other luxuries in your life to support the US economy then this is a good starting point for gear. I’d like to see this movement take off, see people treat it as a point of pride to sport such clothing. This kind of patriotism is good, not only are you helping hard working Americans, you’re not supporting and condoning sweat shop conditions overseas.

64 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:38:50pm

Looking at my eight 2nd great grandfathers, they were born in: 1797, 1806, 1823, 1827 1833, 1835, 1836, and 1846.

They all made decisions in their lives that eventually led to me (among other things.)

That reaches back 226 years. I can track decisions they made that were crucial to them ending up in the locations they did, and marrying the women they chose.

But - I can’t do the opposite. I can’t look ahead 226 years and see what the future will be and how actions people make today will shape the future, in detail.

This I think is the crux of the problem with the big issues of day and society, like climate change. The future is not connectable, emotionally and existentially, to an individual today. That’s why it is so easy to brush off warnings about the future by academics and those ascribed to the “ivory tower.”

The impact of anything beyond the next Powerball drawing is greatly diminished. Indeed, I’ll offer up the continued growth of the lottery scam industry as proof that Americans are becoming even more shortsighted.

That states are expanding their lottery programs in lieu of raising tax rates on the top incomes is particularly damnable. It strikes me as one of the biggest step backwards since the War of the Rebellion.

I wonder how the people (if there are any, or any who will be able to read) in 226 years will think of us when they look back.

65 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:41:11pm

re: #63 goddamnedfrank

What those two sites are really good for is finding brands that have entire Made in America sections on their own websites, like Carhartt.

So what if you look like blue collar, that’s a legit style bitches. Embrace it.

66 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:41:38pm

re: #64 freetoken

I wonder how the people (if there are any, or any who will be able to read) in 226 years will think of us when they look back.

I just hope that if people look back on me/us in 226 years that they will judge us by the standards of our era and not theirs.

67 freetoken  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:43:49pm

re: #66 Sol Berdinowitz

What are “standards of our era”?

68 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:46:35pm

Wait, what, your jeans aren’t flame resistant, relaxed fit, strait leg? What kind of fucking asshole walks around in non flame resistant jeans, tight assed, crooked legged jeans?

What are you, some kind of flaming communist?

69 Amory Blaine  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:51:04pm

re: #63 goddamnedfrank

These guys make great socks.

wigwam.com

70 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:51:45pm

Are you a fireman?

No fool, I’m an American. This is how prepared I am, my fucking rain jacket is fire resistant, just in case it starts raining fire up in this bitch!

71 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:53:02pm

I should really write ad copy for Carhartt.

72 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 27, 2013 11:56:42pm

re: #67 freetoken

What are “standards of our era”?

Compare it by analogy to the standards of 226 years ago: there was still slavery, women and daughters were still more chattels than partners or humans, Native Americans were savages blocking the path of progress, and the other civilized but non-white races were infidels and morally inferior.

Had I been raised in that atmosphere, I might well have adopted those ideas to a greater or lesser extent.

73 prairiefire  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 12:01:53am

re: #71 goddamnedfrank

I should really write ad copy for Carhartt.

Yes.

74 freetoken  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 12:05:18am

re: #72 Sol Berdinowitz

Be careful of reading into the past those summaries made by contemporary writers (whether serious or superficial). The writing of history by nature tends to be a funnel; however, the more I research about my ancestors the more I entertain the idea that they were as diverse as what we see today.

And my comment #64 was not really about judging those in the past. It was about the perception and influence of time upon us. I wonder if there is a relationship between the horizons - looking past, looking forward - that all of us engage in, even if not consciously.

Are our decisions made in light of the passage of time and generations? Are we so into the “now” and “present” that nothing else matters?

75 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 12:06:15am

Seriously, this is a badass apron. Look at that shit, it’s all fucking work my friend. Nobody fucks with the man wearing that apron, because he’s taking care of business. Shit, look at that, it’s dark, denim, slimming … probably fire resistant.

It’s made by prisoners in Oregon, which okay, I have mixed feelings about the whole prison labor thing. But they are being taught a legit skill and my grandfather ran a prison upholstery shop in another Oregon prison for most of his life. These kinds of programs aren’t ditch digging, they’re all volunteer, the prisoners are paid and the jobs are far preferable to having prisoners sit in cells 23 hours a day. These programs have also been disappearing for a long time, and it’s not like they’re being replaced with any kind of emphasis on higher education.

76 Lidane  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 12:10:12am

Good question.

77 freetoken  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 12:11:11am

The here and now:

My Shocking Train Ride Through the Heart of China’s “Airpocalypse”

[…]

But I have never before been as dumbfounded as during a train ride this week from Beijing through a swathe of China’s northeast coal belt. My colleague Jaeah Lee and I were whisked away from the capital on rails that carry sleek new bullet trains (in just two years, China will have completed 18,000 kilometers (11,200 miles) of high-speed railway lines, leaving the US limping). We zoom at 300 kilometers (186 miles) per hour through unabated upheaval.

Youtube Video

The scene could be a panel from a graphic novel. For hours, not a single bird stirred around the hundreds of empty skyscrapers that hang lifeless over farms; they will house the newly urbanized from China’s rural areas. Every bit of the shadowy landscape in China’s northeast has been pressed into the service of an all-pervasive industry: power generation. China continues to be the biggest emitter of greenhouse gases, according to the World Resources Institute. It’s clear to me how: where one coal power plant stops, another begins. A thick brown air blows and for a moment the trees look like nature’s very own protestors, shaking their fists at the sky (the human variety are strictly banned—though public outrage finally forced the government to publish air quality data in 2012).

[…]

78 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 12:12:19am

re: #74 freetoken

I agree that there was a lot of diversity, and not everybody supported those views, but look at the social framework of the time: slavery was a legal institution, women had no right to vote or often to own property and the government was at war with indigenous peoples.

79 freetoken  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 1:00:57am

A little bit of Lully:

MP3 Audio

80 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 1:20:01am

Pictures of Lilly: Youtube Video

81 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 1:25:04am

A belated thank you for the promotion Charles!

Been starting my work days at 2 am lately so I was long asleep when it first got bumped.

82 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:00:06am

re: #77 freetoken

Environmental conditions in some parts of China are horrific. The air quality in most large cities is abysmal on some days, like LA used to be decades ago. Factories often dump toxic waste into nearby rivers and streams. Mine tailings pollute the soil and groundwater nearby. The list goes on.

Fortunately, my part of China is not so bad, being largely agricultural. But many of my students have family members with serious diseases that were no doubt brought on by their jobs or living conditions: cancer, TB, liver damage. There have been some projects halted by civic protests, but those plants will just relocate to some other part of China where the people aren’t so uppity.

83 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:02:57am

re: #82 wheat-dogghazi

We are shooting ourselves in the foot economically and doing the Chinese no favors by letting them compete on lax environmental and safety standards.

I have less problem with letting them compete on wages, that should be our incentive to work better and smarter.

But if we let them undercut us because they are paying for the cleanup or protecting their employees from injury/illness, we are ruining our own economy, and environmental damage is something that does not stop at borders, it can come back and bite us in the ass.

84 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:12:15am

re: #83 Sol Berdinowitz

We are shooting ourselves in the foot economically and doing the Chinese no favors by letting them compete on lax environmental and safety standards.

I have less problem with letting them compete on wages, that should be our incentive to work better and smarter.

But if we let them undercut us because they are paying for the cleanup or protecting their employees from injury/illness, we are ruining our own economy, and environmental damage is something that does not stop at borders, it can come back and bite us in the ass.

Such as the radioactive plume of air and water from Fukushima, and the debris field from the tsunami slowly working its way toward California.

China is not paying for cleanup hardly at all, at least at this point. Employee safety regs, a la OSHA, plain do not exist, and forget about medical or AD&D coverage from your employer if you are a factory worker. Lose your hand in a press? Too bad, so sad. You’re fired. Next!

China, Vietnam and Bangladesh undercut American-made prices partly because the cost-of-living scales are so much less than here, and partly because factories don’t have to abide by pesky and expensive regulations. Every item Americans buy that is made abroad is another nail in the coffin of that nation’s environment and another increase in its mortality and morbidity index.

85 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:16:24am

re: #84 wheat-dogghazi

China, Vietnam and Bangladesh undercut American-made prices partly because the cost-of-living scales are so much less than here, and partly because factories don’t have to abide by pesky and expensive regulations. Every item Americans buy that is made abroad is another nail in the coffin of that nation’s environment and another increase in its mortality and morbidity index.

Let them compete on pay scales, it helps keep us more efficient. But any reasonable import tariff policy would simply surcharge imports for the difference in cost if the products had been produced to our safety and environmental standards.

That would not only help protect our industries but also encourage those nations to raise their own standards.

But Globalization and Free Trade are ideologies to which entire generations are being sacrificed.

86 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:28:24am

re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz

China, Vietnam and Bangladesh undercut American-made prices partly because the cost-of-living scales are so much less than here, and partly because factories don’t have to abide by pesky and expensive regulations. Every item Americans buy that is made abroad is another nail in the coffin of that nation’s environment and another increase in its mortality and morbidity index.

Let them compete on pay scales, it helps keep us more efficient. But any reasonable import tariff policy would simply surcharge imports for the difference in cost if the products had been produced to our safety and environmental standards.

That would not only help protect our industries but also encourage those nations to raise their own standards.

But Globalization and Free Trade are ideologies to which entire generations are being sacrificed.

We’re about 6 senate seats from starting down that same path—again.

87 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:32:05am

re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz

China, Vietnam and Bangladesh undercut American-made prices partly because the cost-of-living scales are so much less than here, and partly because factories don’t have to abide by pesky and expensive regulations. Every item Americans buy that is made abroad is another nail in the coffin of that nation’s environment and another increase in its mortality and morbidity index.

Let them compete on pay scales, it helps keep us more efficient. But any reasonable import tariff policy would simply surcharge imports for the difference in cost if the products had been produced to our safety and environmental standards.

That would not only help protect our industries but also encourage those nations to raise their own standards.

But Globalization and Free Trade are ideologies to which entire generations are being sacrificed.

It’s a complex issue, to be sure. On the one hand, lax or non-existent regulations endanger the workers and the environment. On the other, the ability to sell manufactured goods to the developed nations like the USA has boosted the GDPs of the developing nations, enabling them to create a middle class and improve their infrastructure. Meanwhile, those products’ low prices have killed American domestic manufacturing, which were doomed anyway by the corporations wanting to move factories offshore. So, American factory workers lose their jobs, while Chinese, etc., find jobs. And corporations profit.

There are no easy solutions to the problem. I don’t see the typical American consumer insisting on buying only American-made goods, especially if the economy is still in recovery. The variety of those goods is limited and the price is relatively high. Besides, most folks never check to see where stuff is made. They check the price tags and maybe the designer labels. Few give a thought about who actually produced the items.

As an aside, I like to bring back souvenirs from America to my friends in China. It’s a real challenge to find things that are NOT made in China.

88 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:39:32am

re: #77 freetoken

I wouldn’t be too shocked. Just because we in the US don’t travel abroad much or pay much attention to other countries, doesn’t mean other things are happening outside our own little world that don’t involve us much—things good and bad.

“China’s National Development and Reform Commission—which looks after big-picture planning—announced earlier this year that renewable energy investments in the country could total $294 billion in the five years ending in 2015. This includes the incredible growth of 22 percent from 2011 to 2012. A closer look at the data shows the US has a lot of catching up to do if it wants to compete with the world’s biggest clean energy player.”

That last makes you wonder where in the hell the US is going to be on renewable energy if the dinosaurs in this country continue to whing about new technology, something as simple as changing lightbulb types, for instance, or maybe learning to walk or ride a bicycle instead of driving 4 blocks to a convenience store?

89 freetoken  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:45:35am
90 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:46:21am

Looks like shit just got real in Greece; I’ve created a page regarding the ongoing situation.

The Golden Dawn Party has been classified as a ‘criminal organization’ by the Greek government. Its leaders have been arrested, along with nine Golden Dawn MP’s.

littlegreenfootballs.com

91 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 2:57:37am

re: #75 goddamnedfrank

Seriously, this is a badass apron. Look at that shit, it’s all fucking work my friend. Nobody fucks with the man wearing that apron, because he’s taking care of business. Shit, look at that, it’s dark, denim, slimming … probably fire resistant.

It’s made by prisoners in Oregon, which okay, I have mixed feelings about the whole prison labor thing. But they are being taught a legit skill and my grandfather ran a prison upholstery shop in another Oregon prison for most of his life. These kinds of programs aren’t ditch digging, they’re all volunteer, the prisoners are paid and the jobs are far preferable to having prisoners sit in cells 23 hours a day. These programs have also been disappearing for a long time, and it’s not like they’re being replaced with any kind of emphasis on higher education.

I don’t have any problem with prison labor as long as they are paid prevailing wages with attendant work and safety regs as on the outside. Also, a deduction of maybe 25% for “room and board”, and child support (if there are dependents) from it, with a small allowance for personal items and the rest going to savings for a start on the outside upon release.

Many prisoners don’t really know how to work, to budget money, to take care of others—they’ve never been taught or had a chance to do any of it. If we release prisoners back to where they came from, without any kind of rehabilitation, we will keep recidivism high.

92 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 3:16:09am

“Yelling at the TV”

33 Members of Congress who have benefited from farm subsidies yet voted to cut food stamps

jecarter4.tumblr.com

93 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 3:29:56am
But Gov. Chris Christie, who opposes gay marriage, vowed today to appeal the ruling all the way to the state Supreme Court.

“Governor Christie has always maintained that he would abide by the will of the voters on the issue of marriage equality and called for it to be on the ballot this Election Day,” said Christie spokesman Michael Drewniak. “Since the Legislature refused to allow the people to decide expeditiously, we will let the Supreme Court make this constitutional determination.”

You don’t put basic civil rights up for a popular vote, especially when you’re singling out the basic civil rights of a minority. You accept that the Equal Protection Clause applies equally, because it’s right there in the goddamned name of the thing, and you move the fuck on.

Is there going to be a single Republican candidate for President in 2016 that isn’t a raging, bigoted asshole?

94 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 3:33:15am

re: #93 goddamnedfrank

Unfortunately, Christie has even some smart people here fooled…

95 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 3:46:35am

Could yesterday’s phone call from Pres Obama to Pres Rouhani have served as more of a symbol of the difference between POTUS and John “Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran” McCain?

I’ll never forgive McCain for inflicting Sarah Palin on this country. Had she stayed in AK, she would probably have been convicted of malfeasance in office and serving a bit of time in the pokey, along with her brain trust husband. Yes, she was that bad up there. She really was a hair’s breath away from being run out of office before she resigned as gov in 2009.

96 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 4:52:16am

Another earthquake in Pakistan…

Pakistan’s southwest hit with another major earthquake

ctvnews.ca

Some people don’t get many breaks in life.

97 A Mom Anon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 5:26:22am

It really sucks that it’s so cost prohibitive for most of America to travel outside of the country. Maybe if people were able to see how other places really live Americans might care more. I don’t know. Of course, I have friends who can travel, can afford it, and they go on Disney cruises and to all inclusive resorts and never leave. When we’ve had the money we’ve left the country and made it a point to show our son what life is like for the people serving him breakfast and cleaning the room we stay in. From what I’ve seen of Americans when I have been able to travel outside the US (a total of 4 times in my life, and not that far, Jamaica and Mexico), no one seems to notice and that “ugly American” thing is well earned sometimes.

Just a fair pay scale would be nice. I think companies have gotten away with this for so long because Americans have internalized the notion that “those people don’t need that much to live anyways”. Not realizing that while they don’t need 50K a year to be middle class(which is becoming barely middle class if you have a family), they do need a higher pay scale that works for their country. A higher pay scale here would eliminate some of the need/want for a 3 dollar t-shirt or 1 dollar socks too. I don’t know what the answer is, I’m facing buying new clothes and shoes for a kid headed off to school soon and I have little to spend(Seriously, I have about 125 dollars, fortunately he doesn’t need a winter jacket). Resale stores help a little, but you never know if they’ll have what you need. What then? It’s a shitty dilemma which makes me hate the Walton heirs more than I already do.

98 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 5:50:56am

re: #97 A Mom Anon

If postage were not so prohibitive, I’d offer to buy your kid some clothes here in China for dirt cheap. But by the time I figure in the cost of shipping them to you, you might as well buy them stateside. Of course, it depends on the weight and size of the box, too.

Just for kicks, tell me what he needs and his age, height and weight, and I’ll price things online. No point in telling me sizes, because they’re different from American sizes. For example, I usually take a size L T-shirt in the USA. In China, I am size XXL.

99 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 5:58:14am

re: #97 A Mom Anon

I’m not able to help right now, alas. As it is, I’ll probably be asking my priest for help with the health insurance. If it wasn’t for that parish, we’d be in a much harder place. I had a guy about 3 weeks ago just walk up and hand us $100 because he knew we needed it. 2 weeks worth of groceries for us…

100 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:06:40am

re: #98 wheat-dogghazi

If postage were not so prohibitive, I’d offer to buy your kid some clothes here in China for dirt cheap. But by the time I figure in the cost of shipping them to you, you might as well buy them stateside. Of course, it depends on the weight and size of the box, too.

Just for kicks, tell me what he needs and his age, height and weight, and I’ll price things online. No point in telling me sizes, because they’re different from American sizes. For example, I usually take a size L T-shirt in the USA. In China, I am size XXL.

Too bad postage is so prohibitive, because you’re in the ideal place to get me one of these bad boys:

Image: pigeonbig.jpg

Alas, they don’t have them here in the Czech Republic - part of EU regulations against Chinese-made bicycles. :(

101 Good Morning  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:16:44am

“the American desire for cheap everything”

American’s desire expensive everything. Cheap everything is all they can afford.

102 A Mom Anon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:17:50am

re: #98 wheat-dogghazi

Aww you are sweet to offer. We’ll be ok, he’s got a ton of t shirts and that kind of stuff. All he really needs is some decent jeans and some socks and underwear, maybe a hoodie. I was smart when he was a little younger and bought stuff big, so he’s still wearing stuff he had in high school. I’m a clearance rack shopper, I just found him two pairs of jeans the other day for 8.83 a pair that were actually cool looking. A few months back we found hiking shoes on clearance(21.00!) We’ll muddle through this. Once he’s in this program he actually may get a weekly stipend for food and clothing once he begins working, so he can chip in. They make the students save a percentage of their income wherever it comes from so they can buy clothes and other stuff they need. That was just so nice of you to offer though, I love the community here for this reason. If you really want to help someone, find an organization that helps homeless teens, “the throwaways”, those places ALWAYS need clothing. This is a good one.

My main point is that with a small budget, your choices are limited to Made In Not the USA. And we’re considered solid middle class mind you, so if a person is lower income, what choices are there that are affordable? Especially if you have kids. With kids, quality is less important because they grow so fast, I think that’s what WalMart and other retailers count on to be honest.

103 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:18:59am

re: #97 A Mom Anon

It really sucks that it’s so cost prohibitive for most of America to travel outside of the country. Maybe if people were able to see how other places really live Americans might care more. I don’t know. Of course, I have friends who can travel, can afford it, and they go on Disney cruises and to all inclusive resorts and never leave. When we’ve had the money we’ve left the country and made it a point to show our son what life is like for the people serving him breakfast and cleaning the room we stay in. From what I’ve seen of Americans when I have been able to travel outside the US (a total of 4 times in my life, and not that far, Jamaica and Mexico), no one seems to notice and that “ugly American” thing is well earned sometimes.

Although I live abroad now, most of my international travel has happened in my middle age. In high school, I was lucky to participate in our school choir’s tour of Europe. Eight years later, I took a solo tour of Sweden. It was another 20 years before I left the country again, this time on a teacher exchange to South Africa for a year. Eight years later, I began work in China. The key was to get all the kids out of the house and on their own. (I did wait until they were college age, wise guys.)

I’m not sure whether cost holds some Americans back from international travel, or fear of the unknown (I can’t speak the language. I’ll get sick. I’ll be kidnapped!), or a deeply rooted notion that America is The Best Place in the World, so why go anywhere else? Maybe it’s a combination of the three. My immediate family and I have traveled or lived abroad. Among my extended family, only the guys who served in the military have left the country., and they don’t seem keen to return. For one, Iraq is a place he’d soon forget ever existed. Everyone else says they wish they could go someplace exotic, but inertia holds them back.

As for the ugly American syndrome, the worst are the ones in tour groups, traveling in their little bubble of American-ness. Independent travelers are not so bad, although there are some expats who really should have stayed home. Ugly Americans have been replaced by “Ugly Chinese” — the nouveau riche who have bad manners and an expectation that their money entitles them to whatever they desire whenever they want it. They’ve become notorious in Hong Kong.

104 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:22:14am

re: #102 A Mom Anon

Pro tip: Visit the Goodwill in the “good” part of town, where the hoity toity folks live. You can pick up some really nice, barely used clothes for dirt cheap.

Been there, done that. So, I know what you’re going through.

105 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:24:50am

re: #100 Dr Lizardo

Flying Pigeon PA-06, really? I would so go for a Dutch Workcycles, they cost more but they’re just as iconic and you won’t need to replace any parts for a long time.

106 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:27:22am

re: #105 goddamnedfrank

Flying Pigeon PA-06, really? I would so go for a Dutch Workcycles, they cost more but they’re just as iconic and you won’t need to replace any parts for a long time.

Heh. No hava the moola for a Dutch bike; they go for about $2,000 USD here.

And that’s used. That’s more expensive than a used car. A new mountain bike here will set you back $3,000 USD.

Maybe next spring, i’ll go to Berlin - you can buy used bikes there inexpensively.

107 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:29:26am

re: #106 Dr Lizardo

Heh. No hava the moola for a Dutch bike; they go for about $2,000 USD here.

And that’s used. That’s more expensive than a used car. A new mountain bike here will set you back $3,000 USD.

Maybe next spring, i’ll go to Berlin - you can buy used bikes there inexpensively.

Damn, I need to move to CZ and open a frame shop.

108 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:31:03am

re: #100 Dr Lizardo

Too bad postage is so prohibitive, because you’re in the ideal place to get me one of these bad boys:

Image: pigeonbig.jpg

Alas, they don’t have them here in the Czech Republic - part of EU regulations against Chinese-made bicycles. :(

Coincidentally, I’ll be visiting Tianjin, the hometown of those bikes, next week. Shipping one would be a nightmare, though.

My Chinese neighbor has one that looks like it was made in the 1950s, judging from the surface rust everywhere. It’s got a triangular kick stand.

109 A Mom Anon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:32:27am

re: #103 wheat-dogghazi

I think it’s a combo honestly, maybe fear, but also the expense. When you look at the cost of, well everything these days and the job uncertainty/economy, I think people who might be curious and want to travel simply can’t. That’s true for us, even travel within the US is cost prohibitive right now.

And there is this idiotic syndrome of Americans (not sure of other people are like this) who travel somewhere in a resort bubble and don’t spend any time at all really SEEING where they are. They want McDonalds and to find the same things in the stores they have in America. Why leave the house?

When we went to Jamaica, our son was around 8. It was a resort for families where each room came with a nanny. Lovely place. We left the beaten path though, ate where the locals did, bought stuff at the little stores people had all over the place and tried to see the place. I gave our son a camera and he followed the resort workers around like a reporter and asked them questions about their jobs and took pictures almost exclusively of them. By the time we left he knew the names of everyone who worked in the front office, the groundskeepers and most of the restaurant employees. We saw the kids going to and from schools, moms washing clothes in the front yards, tending chickens, all that. Poverty, but lots of love and happiness and pride in non material things. Beautiful people, beautiful place. Jamaica has it’s problems to be sure(we were instructed to stay away from Kingston because of gang wars at the time) but if I could see the world like that, it would be better than travelling with people who could care less about who lives there. If I had money, that’s what I would do with it, and make sure my kids and grandkids could do the same. I think it helps develop some empathy as well as appreciation for how good you have it sometimes.

110 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:34:56am

re: #107 goddamnedfrank

Damn, I need to move to CZ and open a frame shop.

From some reason, bikes here are expensive. I’ve never been sure as to why, but some of it could be that Czechs really don’t sell “used” stuff, they throw it away, and when they throw it away, they take great pains to make damned sure no one else can use it.

The other day, I saw what had been a perfectly good washing machine out by the dumpsters - the cord had been cut, the electronics smashed to bits, and the drum removed and damaged beyond repair. A few weeks ago, I saw a big flat-screen TV, in the box, with the receipt attached. The screen had been demolished. It was less than one year old. The electronics had been deliberately destroyed as well.

111 A Mom Anon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:35:23am

And now, once again it’s No Dog Walk, No Peace. So BBL. And (((hugs))) to wheat-dog for being so nice. Made my day.

112 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:38:49am

re: #39 Targetpractice

Ya gotta love it, the GOP can’t make up their minds. A federal default on our debts won’t have any dire consequences and anybody saying otherwise is wrong, but a default would be so serious that threatening to push the country into one is the only leverage the GOP has to get spending concessions from Obama.

It’s one or the other, it’s not both. If it’s not a serious situation, why should Obama bow? And if it is a serious one, why are you going to allow it to happen when you have the power to stop it?

Because we must destroy this country in order to save it.

113 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:40:54am

re: #111 A Mom Anon

And now, once again it’s No Dog Walk, No Peace. So BBL. And (((hugs))) to wheat-dog for being so nice. Made my day.

You’re welcome. And I appreciate your remarks about getting out of the resort bubble. Every trip I’ve taken since high school has been DIY, and I try to live like the locals as much as I can. Shopping in supermarkets abroad can be a lot of fun, in fact.

114 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 6:59:02am

Well, this is good news…

TUNISIA’S RULING ISLAMISTS TO STEP DOWN

hosted.ap.org

TUNIS, Tunisia (AP) — Tunisia’s governing Islamist party has agreed to step down following negotiations with opposition parties that begin next week.

“A spokesman for the main labor union said months of talks with the Islamist-led government had finally reached an agreement Saturday. Bouali Mbarki of the UGTT union said the deal calls for three weeks of negotiations to appoint an interim, non-partisan government.

(snip)

“Tunisia’s protesters, inspired by the self-immolation of a fruit seller, overthrew their decades-old authoritarian government in January 2011. Those protests spread through the Arab world, including to Egypt, Syria and neighboring Libya.”

115 Mattand  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:02:41am

re: #93 goddamnedfrank

You don’t put basic civil rights up for a popular vote, especially when you’re singling out the basic civil rights of a minority. You accept that the Equal Protection Clause applies equally, because it’s right there in the goddamned name of the thing, and you move the fuck on.

Is there going to be a single Republican candidate for President in 2016 that isn’t a raging, bigoted asshole?

I got into it with a couple of wingnuts over at Politico about Christie being the nation’s New Bipartisan Messiah™. We touched on this issue, but the overall thrust of the argument was whether or not Christie would go full stop wingnut as 2016 approaches.

As is usual for me, examples that bolster my argument always happen after I make a statement. Timing aside, however, this dick move my guv just made only proves my point.

Of course, political genius that I am, I was actually hoping that Christie would take this opportunity to bolster his alleged bipartisan cred and say “Look, Tea Baggers, I’m not going to waste my state’s time and money by trying to fight what is fast becoming Supreme Court precedent.”

If people accross the nation want Christie to be President, that’s their right. I’m just so sick of people who don’t live here yammering on about how he’s this moderate who will bring people together. He fucking yells and threatens people in town halls and posts them to YouTube, for Christ’s sake.

How people think that is Presidenatlal behavior is beyond me. If you want to know why I’m always down on the American voter, these are some of the reasons why.

116 celticdragon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:07:45am

re: #77 freetoken

So China is turning into a forge world from 40k.

Hail the Omnissiah! The Machine God must be served.

117 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:12:06am

re: #115 Mattand

“Rule 29: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy. No more. No less”

Christie is simply a “less bad” version of a teahadi. He may oppose some of those who are worse than him but that does not make him my friend.

When it comes to GOP politicians, Rule 30 also applies: “A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you’ll go.”

118 darthstar  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:19:32am

re: #115 Mattand

Christie’s a loose cannon and he’d be a disastrous president. And I have often wondered in the last couple of years how they’d sell Christie to the US given his lack of social graces, but I now know. They’ll spin it as “America needs some tough love after eight years of Obama’s apology tour.” And the teabaggers will suck it up like extra syrup on their plates after they finished their pancakes.

119 Mattand  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:19:47am

re: #117 William Barnett-Lewis

“Rule 29: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy. No more. No less”

Christie is simply a “less bad” version of a teahadi. He may oppose some of those who are worse than him but that does not make him my friend.

When it comes to GOP politicians, Rule 30 also applies: “A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you’ll go.”

LOL, those sound like the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

120 darthstar  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:19:54am

Mornin’ everyone.

121 Mattand  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:25:40am

re: #118 darthstar

Christie’s a loose cannon and he’d be a disastrous president. And I have often wondered in the last couple of years how they’d sell Christie to the US given his lack of social graces, but I now know. They’ll spin it as “America needs some tough love after eight years of Obama’s apology tour.” And the teabaggers will suck it up like extra syrup on their plates after they finished their pancakes.

People in NJ are already buying it. As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve met a few full time teachers who want him to destroy the teachers’ unions. It kinda touches on the national phenomenon of middle class and poor people voting Republican, despite the glaring examples of how they’re the party of the rich.

It’s funny, I was just paging though NJ.com’s site and it turns out that Christie is responsible for signing a bullying bill that’s one of the toughest in the nation. Can I get an irony high five?

He certainly is a bundle of contradictions, which I think is what the rest of the nation is seeing as bipartisan. Fighting gay rights, but signs bullying law and appoints Muslim judge. Works with Obama on Sandy relief, but criticizes the ACA while supporting Romney, who enacted the same freaking law in MA.

Should be an interesting 2016.

EDIT: changed “here” to “NJ”

122 funky chicken  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:29:44am

It’s particularly frustrating that even $50 shirts and $100 handbags are made in these shitholes. Look at manufacturing location on $150 running shoes—Indonesia, Vietnam, China. Yeah, CEOs make a lot more than they did in the 1970s when they were paying living American wages to their factory workers, and the stock market wasn’t so damned high, but you can’t tell me that all the offshoring has been good for the US or for workers anywhere.

123 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:33:12am

re: #11 William Barnett-Lewis

No, it’s not a typo. The real problem though is not the owners of the factories. It’s the owners of companies like Walmart that refuse to pay those owners enough for them to be able to pay the workers enough to live on. Yeah, the owners are milking their workers but the owners are not stealing anything even remotely like the asinine 250x margins we have in America.

Yeah, I do pray that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is true but only if the rich man who is so punished is the appropriate family member of the Waltons or the Kochs or their equivalent.

Don’t go after the Kochs on this one. The impact of Koch Industries upon garment making is only tangential, and an impact exists it is positive, as Koch-run energy production in the US is lowering the price of energy and thus the cost of manufacturing.

124 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:38:03am

re: #117 William Barnett-Lewis

“Rule 29: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy. No more. No less”

Christie is simply a “less bad” version of a teahadi. He may oppose some of those who are worse than him but that does not make him my friend.

When it comes to GOP politicians, Rule 30 also applies: “A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you’ll go.”

Chris Christie is no teabagger, but he does have to be seen sometimes as fighting for the party base’s causes, especially when he is up for reelection in a month. Moreover, he’s not a big fan of being dictated to, by a judge or anyone else.

I can pretty much guarantee you that whatever the judges say, there will be no same-sex marriages recognized in the Garden State till after the election.

125 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:40:30am

re: #122 funky chicken

It’s particularly frustrating that even $50 shirts and $100 handbags are made in these shitholes. Look at manufacturing location on $150 running shoes—Indonesia, Vietnam, China. Yeah, CEOs make a lot more than they did in the 1970s when they were paying living American wages to their factory workers, and the stock market wasn’t so damned high, but you can’t tell me that all the offshoring has been good for the US or for workers anywhere.

Yeah, that nice leather (and in excellent shape Vera Wang bag I picked up at the local thrift store for $5 was made in China. It probably cost at least $100 new. At least the $5 I paid will be used to help people w/rent, elec and food baskets, not line the pockets of the wealthy. Since I live on SS, most of my shopping is done there, so it’s a win-win for everyone. And I contribute stuff I no longer need, too, if it’s still in good shape. Nothing goes to waste around here. : )

126 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:43:05am

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

Don’t go after the Kochs on this one. The impact of Koch Industries upon garment making is only tangential, and an impact exists it is positive, as Koch-run energy production in the US is lowering the price of energy and thus the cost of manufacturing.

Come on, you really believe that crap about the Kochs?

When you make a claim like that, I want proof. Lots of proof.

127 Mattand  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:44:10am

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

Chris Christie is no teabagger, but he does have to be seen sometimes as fighting for the party base’s causes, especially when he is up for reelection in a month. Moreover, he’s not a big fan of being dictated to, by a judge or anyone else.

I can pretty much guarantee you that whatever the judges say, there will be no same-sex marriages recognized in the Garden State till after the election.

Something that should be pointed out: if Christie doesn’t like being dictated to by judges, he really should re-consider working in the Executive branch of government, be it national or state. That pesky separation of powers things can be a bummer.

128 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:47:26am

re: #125 Justanotherhuman

Yeah, that nice leather (and in excellent shape Vera Wang bag I picked up at the local thrift store for $5 was made in China. It probably cost at least $100 new. At least the $5 I paid will be used to help people w/rent, elec and food baskets, not line the pockets of the wealthy. Since I live on SS, most of my shopping is done there, so it’s a win-win for everyone. And I contribute stuff I no longer need, too, if it’s still in good shape. Nothing goes to waste around here. : )

Many brand-name merchandise is produced in the same factories as Brand X merchandise. The only differences are the styles and labels. Many athletic shoes like Nike and Adidas are made in the same factories in Dongguan. The city of Yiwu, Zhejiang, meanwhile, is a big producer of socks.

129 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:53:04am

re: #126 Justanotherhuman

Come on, you really believe that crap about the Kochs?

When you make a claim like that, I want proof. Lots of proof.

Their investments are mostly in energy, and to my knowledge their firms are not involved in garment production. If they don’t deal with the plants making these clothes then their culpability isn’t greater than an average person.

130 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:53:50am

re: #119 Mattand

LOL, those sound like the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

“The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries” from the web comic schlockmercenary.com

131 funky chicken  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 7:57:51am

re: #69 Amory Blaine

These guys make great socks.

wigwam.com

I prefer smartwool

smartwool.com

Expensive, but good enough that my teenagers like having them under the tree at Xmas.

132 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:00:29am

re: #128 wheat-dogghazi

Many brand-name merchandise is produced in the same factories as Brand X merchandise. The only differences are the styles and labels. Many athletic shoes like Nike and Adidas are made in the same factories in Dongguan. The city of Yiwu, Zhejiang, meanwhile, is a big producer of socks.

Yeah, I think NC used to be a the tube sock capital of the world. Lots of textiles here, and furniture—all gone.

133 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:07:41am

House budget debate in case you want to get your blood pressure up:

nbcnews.com

Fucking waste of space Virginia Foxx just finished her bullshit. Grrrr! I loathe that woman.

134 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:15:41am

re: #132 Justanotherhuman

Yiwu is now the sock capital of the world, or so they say. The city is also famous for exporting “small commodities” like hair things for women and girls, small kitchen items, and the like. You can probably find them at the Dollar General.

135 darthstar  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:22:45am

My wife replaced her dead iPhone 4 with a 5c yesterday. She said the decision was easy. She could either get a 5c and be out of the store in five minutes, or wait in a line that went out the front door for a 5s. The clerk also told her that they didn’t actually have any 5s phones in stock. The people waiting in line were waiting in hopes that the store would get another shipment in while they were there. I found that hilarious.

136 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:25:45am

re: #135 darthstar

My wife replaced her dead iPhone 4 with a 5c yesterday. She said the decision was easy. She could either get a 5c and be out of the store in five minutes, or wait in a line that went out the front door for a 5s. The clerk also told her that they didn’t actually have any 5s phones in stock. The people waiting in line were waiting in hopes that the store would get another shipment in while they were there. I found that hilarious.

Apple worship knows no bounds.

137 Political Atheist  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:26:43am

Good Morning Lizard Nation. Sometimes music is a lot like bread. Better when fresh. So…. New Linkin Park featuring Steve Aoki. Little bit electronic, little bit hip hop all good.

Waiting For The Light That Never Comes
Youtube Video

138 SnowdenBaggerVance  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:26:57am

All for a fucking smart phone. Unbelievable.

139 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:27:37am

Good news from Tunisia today:

MB is still behind Algeria’s government, and causing instability in Libya. It is likely that, with this event, pressure on the MB in Libya will increase dramatically.

140 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:28:28am

re: #133 Justanotherhuman

Fortunately, she has an eye problem for easy laughs.

141 darthstar  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:30:30am
142 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:30:50am

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

Don’t go after the Kochs on this one. The impact of Koch Industries upon garment making is only tangential, and an impact exists it is positive, as Koch-run energy production in the US is lowering the price of energy and thus the cost of manufacturing.

No, they don’t run the garment industry though they have helped create the conditions that allow for the obscene amount of off-shoring that has happened in that industry.

No, I put them with the rich man of the parable for all the other evil they have performed as a family - from drilling Stalin’s oil wells to today - in the pursuit of money over humanity.

143 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:51:17am

re: #142 William Barnett-Lewis

No, they don’t run the garment industry though they have helped create the conditions that allow for the obscene amount of off-shoring that has happened in that industry.

No, I put them with the rich man of the parable for all the other evil they have performed as a family - from drilling Stalin’s oil wells to today - in the pursuit of money over humanity.

I don’t agree, but I can’t get into this since my employer has domestic energy-related events coming up.

Sorry, Will. I should know better than to get into this sort of thing, since when I have to pull back it just frustrates the person I’m talking to. I apologize.

144 elizajane  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:52:52am

Thanks to EC for posting this article and Charles for paging it. I have sent it to all of my fashion-conscious teen-aged daughters who worship at H&M (explicitly mentioned in this article) and even worse places like Forever 21. I am always telling them how bad it is to shop there, but it’s nice to have a real article about it.

The alternatives are hard, time-consuming, and more expensive. You can sew, of course. I myself buy 95% of my clothing used on ebay. It is expensive stuff that was never made in a sweatshop; even at 10% of the original price, it is usually more than an item at Target. However, it lasts forever if you care for it. Finding and buying this clothing is a lot harder than stopping at Gap for a t-shirt.

When I was young (in ancient times) clothing was expensive. You didn’t have much of it. It was well-made and you took good care of it. When a child outgrew clothing, it was recycled to another child, either within the family or a neighbor. The clothing my kids buy at Forever 21 is basically disposable. Landfill these days is full of discarded clothing, to an amazing degree. My kids leave their clothing in piles on the closet floor and I really can’t get too angry because it is total crap that will disintegrate after a few washings.

There is something really WRONG about this system. I refuse to participate in it myself but I do not know what to do about it, except try and try to convince my kids not to participate in it either.

145 SnowdenBaggerVance  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 8:58:21am

re: #141 darthstar

That is awesome. Rec’d to Charles, should give him a good laugh.

146 Mattand  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:00:20am
147 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:05:53am

Florida woman sentenced to 20 years for firing warning shot at abusive husband gets new trial

I posted this last night, but I felt it needed to be Paged as well.

148 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:11:53am

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

That’s fine, but people may want to review this.

Koch Brothers’ Products — We’re Surrounded.

inspirationgreen.com

149 GeneJockey  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:30:15am

Someone said it best above - Americans WANT expensive products, but can only afford cheap ones.

This is the result of those ‘Deals with the Devil’ I mentioned yesterday.

Pretty much everyone wants to be able to buy nicer stuff. The ways to do that boil down to 2:

1) Get payed more.

2) Get the same goods cheaper somewhere else.

From the end of WWII until about 1980, we mostly did #1. After that, mostly #2. It turns out that #1 works to build a strong, affluent middle class, and #2 works to build a strong, really affluent upper class.

150 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:30:57am

One of the concepts that I have always, ALWAYS believed is key to a healthy, industrial minded civilization is: “A honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work.”

Everyone deserves to have some dignity in their work. Even if you are at the bottom of the ladder, you still be making enough to feel like you’re not being ruthlessly taken advantage of.

On another note, I will be the first to grant that China has seem some incredible benefits from the influx of foreign manufacturing there, but what good is a whole bunch of new infrastructure when the environment around it is crumbling to pieces?

A high rise in a wasteland won’t do any good at all. Since the dawn of man, human settlements have required the presence of natural resources to be sustainable.

I shudder to think what that country might look like one to two generations from now.

Another thing worth mentioning: I think it’s pretty clear that there is a LOT of environmental damage and other issues that are being suppressed by the communist Chinese government. I suspect it’s far worse there than we think.

151 BongCrodny  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:31:56am

Oh, joy.

George Zimmerman is trending again.

Yahoo

After his divorce becomes final, he should probably hook up with Lindsay Lohan.

152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:32:20am

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

, as Koch-run energy production in the US is lowering the price of energy and thus the cost of manufacturing.

No it’s not. It’s pushing the price of energy off onto the taxpayer, by polluting the shit out of the environment and expecting everyone else to clean up their mess.

Edit: And lowering the price of energy doesn’t lead to a reduction in the price of clothing, which is sold at what the market will bear. You’re falling into the typical cost + idea of how prices are set. No idea why all Republicans seem to think that’s true, except it’s a necessary assumption for trickle-down economics to make any sense (which they demonstrably don’t).

153 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:33:29am

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

Florida woman sentenced to 20 years for firing warning shot at abusive husband gets new trial

I posted this last night, but I felt it needed to be Paged as well.

Seeing as how it was a jury instruction that caused the ruling for retrial, my guess is the new trial won’t change much.

154 Gus  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:35:10am

I remember my dad bringing home a reel to reel player and my brother, sister and me having the time of my life with that thing. Think it was free except for the tape. This was back in the day when a transistor radio with a single ear piece head jack was awesome — all for less than 10 bucks. Paper and pencil was also awesome and reading books was a virtue.

155 GeneJockey  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:36:37am

re: #152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

No it’s not. It’s pushing the price of energy off onto the taxpayer, by polluting the shit out of the environment and expecting everyone else to clean up their mess.

TREEHUGGER!!! ENVIRONAZI!!!!

Interestingly, DF’s argument makes lots of sense to Wingnuts. They see cheap gas as their birthright, no matter what it costs or from whom. Anything that would make their gas more expensive must be wrong, and an attempt to destroy Capitalism.

156 Political Atheist  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:42:12am

re: #152 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

No it’s not. It’s pushing the price of energy off onto the taxpayer, by polluting the shit out of the environment and expecting everyone else to clean up their mess.

Edit: And lowering the price of energy doesn’t lead to a reduction in the price of clothing, which is sold at what the market will bear. You’re falling into the typical cost + idea of how prices are set. No idea why all Republicans seem to think that’s true, except it’s a necessary assumption for trickle-down economics to make any sense (which they demonstrably don’t).

High energy costs are inflationary or not? I believe they are. So the opposite is not so? Price points are fixed, but what is offered at those points varies widely. Lower energy costs means better product can be sold at those points as compared to in a high or increasing energy cost market.

When gasoline and diesel cost more money that gets passed on to the buyers of the products made and distributed with that energy will pay more.

Edit-Example
As gold got expensive silver replaced it in stores at those sweet spot price points.

157 elizajane  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:42:26am

re: #150 Eclectic Cyborg

People in China do know about the pollution. It’s not just a government cover-up. It’s willful denial and passivity by individuals, too.

I was in Beijing a few months ago with my partner, and we met various faculty and graduate students from the University, including a lot of environmental engineers. Some of the faculty keep a house outside of the city where their families live, and they come into the pollution zone to teach. They are aware that living in Beijing takes about 10 years (!!!) off your lifespan due to the incredible air pollution and they want their children away from there. But the grad students? They just ignore it. Beijing is the hip and happening place to live. They are young.

I think of it as something like living in San Francisco but worse. I mean, to live in a major earthquake zone takes some degree of just thinking “it won’t happen. And even if it does, I won’t be the one who dies.” That was the attitude in Beijing — yes, the air is poisonous, ha ha ha, some day when I’m old I might move away.”

Anyway, in my admittedly small experience there is plenty of knowledge but very little will to push the government to do anything about it.

158 BongCrodny  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:44:36am

re: #154 Gus

I remember my dad bringing home a reel to reel player and my brother, sister and me having the time of my life with that thing. Think it was free except for the tape. This was back in the day when a transistor radio with a single ear piece head jack was awesome — all for less than 10 bucks. Paper and pencil was also awesome and reading books was a virtue.

Cheap transistors ruled.

My Favorite Thing To Do In The World when I was a kid was spinning the dial, see which clear channel stations (not Clear Channel) stations I could pick up. Although I forget the call letters, there was one station in Pennsylvania I could pick up most nights, and another in Ohio.

One summer, everybody I knew listened to WKBW in Buffalo. It said a lot about Maine’s radio stations when the station everybody listened to was in Buffalo.

159 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:47:01am

re: #151 BongCrodny

Oh, joy.

George Zimmerman is trending again.

Yahoo

After his divorce becomes final, he should probably hook up with Lindsay Lohan.

You hate her that much??? I’d suggest Pammy the Vodka Queen as being more appropriate to his level of karma.

160 jaunte  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:47:27am



161 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:48:21am

re: #160 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Okay, seriously? Funding the government for not even 3 months, but defense funding for a year? No sale.

162 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:49:54am

re: #151 BongCrodny

Oh, joy.

George Zimmerman is trending again.

Yahoo

After his divorce becomes final, he should probably hook up with Lindsay Lohan.

I wouldn’t wish that on Lindsay Lohan for all the whiskey in Ireland.

163 Gus  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:51:04am
164 Lidane  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:51:10am

re: #161 Targetpractice

Okay, seriously? Funding the government for not even 3 months, but defense funding for a year? No sale.

The House GOP don’t get it. Obama isn’t going to negotiate with himself anymore. The Senate has already said they’re done — pass the current bill or GTFO. It’s over.

They have two choices. They can accept reality and start acting like human beings, or they can expect an earful from people when the government shuts down and combat troops aren’t getting paid and checks aren’t being sent on time because Republicans are assholes.

165 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:53:34am

re: #164 Lidane

The House GOP don’t get it. Obama isn’t going to negotiate with himself anymore. The Senate has already said they’re done — pass the current bill or GTFO. It’s over.

They have two choices. They can accept reality and start acting like human beings, or they can expect an earful from people when the government shuts down and combat troops aren’t getting paid and checks aren’t being sent on time because Republicans are assholes.

They apparently seem to think they have leverage that outside observers can clearly see they totally lack. Obama’s not running again and if the government does shut down, polls are running against their belief that Democrats will be blamed.

166 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:53:48am

re: #156 Political Atheist

High energy costs are inflationary or not?

Not. Or rather, they don’t have any direct effect on inflation.

I believe they are.

Why do you believe this?

Lower energy costs means better product can be sold at those points as compared to in a high or increasing energy cost market.

What do you mean by ‘better’?

When gasoline and diesel cost more money that gets passed on to the buyers of the products made and distributed with that energy will pay more.

No, again, this is the cost + idea of pricing. This is not how (most) things are priced. Only things that hover right around profitability are priced in this way. Energy costs are not a very significant part of clothing production, anyway, and energy costs are not a simple scale; electricity used for forging and the like is typically done at night in large industrial uses, because it’s much cheaper then.

As gold got expensive silver replaced it in stores at those sweet spot price points.

How does this relate?

167 jaunte  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:55:12am
168 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 9:56:24am

re: #167 jaunte

[Embedded content]

No offense, Darrell, but we’re just drawing on your track record to date to draw our own conclusions.

169 ObserverArt  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:03:40am

re: #59 BongCrodny

Dear Chuck Todd:

This is the way it’s supposed to be done.

Your pal,

Bong

I know Matthews can be tough to watch, but like a dog, when he smells some fear or sees something that needs protecting he will bark, snarl and then bite down hard. No on goes after people like he does, but then that is also used as a criticism of him.

170 Political Atheist  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:12:11am

re: #166 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Not. Or rather, they don’t have any direct effect on inflation.

Indirect counts as well. That would be why I did not limit my comment with the word “direct”. This link is a google search on high energy and inflation. Pick and choose as you wish among the examples of higher energy costs feeding inflation in various economies.

Why do you believe this?

Answered above.

What do you mean by ‘better’?

See my example. Better meant gold instead of silver at certain lower range price points in retail jewelry.

No, again, this is the cost + idea of pricing. This is not how things are priced.

You might be speaking rightly in the broadest sense of economics. However that translates differently at the hands on company policy level.
Gold and jewelry- We look at costs, the required vs desired margin and what the market will bear. Sometimes we can shape the market. Elevate a price point. Sometimes it shapes us as in changing product lines or the price points falling against all efforts. Like recently . Cost can not be ignored, nor can increased costs.

Now I have a question for you. When we talk about energy costs being passed on to taxpayers, why is Koch singled out? Almost all the fossil fuel companies enjoy the benefit of not paying taxes for the pollution they cause while fueling a growing civilization and elevating the lifestyles of people in developing countries.

To an environmental point about the thread topic=
Those higher wages and elevated lifestyles will also increase the carbon footprint of those societies right? What benefits them, higher or lower costs of energy to fuel their vehicles, or heat their homes or cook their food?

Perhaps the hard truth for the environment is we need to reduce the carbon footprint in developed nations more than we need to escalate the footprint of developing countries via elevated lifestyles.

How does this relate?

In general, just as a point of discussion about energy and inflation.

171 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:17:16am

Apparently all the cheering in the House might have something to do with a plan to tack a one-year ACA “delay,” as well as repeal of the medical device tax, onto a funding bill that would fund the government through December 15th.

172 Political Atheist  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:22:43am

Just to hit this point on its head
In the face of data like this why would I deny the high energy cost inflation link?


Energy Resources
High energy prices driving OECD inflation


PARIS, July 31 (UPI) — Inflation for members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development was driven in large part by higher energy prices, the group said.

The OECD, which consists of 34 members from the Americas, Europe and Asia, said consumer prices for its members increased 1.8 percent to June 2013, compared to 1.5 percent from May.

“This increase in the annual rate of inflation was driven by higher energy and food prices,” the organization said Tuesday. “Energy prices increased by 3.4 percent in the year to June compared with 0.5 percent in May.”

In the United States, one of the world’s leading economies, consumers have less disposable income because of higher gasoline prices. Refinery issues in the Midwest have kept gasoline prices in the Chicago area above the $4 mark, a 5 percent increase from the same time last year.

Read more: upi.com


Read more: upi.com

173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:23:03am

re: #170 Political Atheist

Indirect counts as well. That would be why I did not limit my comment with the word “direct”. This link is a google search on high energy and inflation. Pick and choose as you wish among the examples of higher energy costs feeding inflation in various economies.

I’m sorry, I’m not going to read a google search. Prices of anything rising sharply will cause, or are synonymous with inflation. Prices remaining high do not cause inflation.

Answered above.

No, you didn’t.

You might be speaking rightly in the broadest sense of economics. However that translates differently at the hands on company policy level.

No, I’m speaking about the hands-on company level. The prices of products are determined mostly by the marketing team’s testing of what the marketing will bear. Obviously, feasibility is done before production to make sure that the production costs will be below what the market will bear. It’s a complicated algorithm most of the time, but you’re basically looking for the largest space under the curve, and that is not related to production costs. Production costs are a limit, they are not a part of the equation.

Gold and jewelry- We look at costs, the required vs desired margin and what the market will bear. Sometimes we can shape the market. Elevate a price point. Sometimes it shapes us as in changing product lines or the price points falling against all efforts. Like recently . Cost can not be ignored, nor can increased costs.

I didn’t claim cost could be ignored, and have no idea why you’d accuse me of something so stupid.

Perhaps the hard truth for the environment is we need to reduce the carbon footprint in developed nations more than we need to escalate the footprint of developing countries via elevated lifestyles.

Well, obviously, but you can elevate lifestyle without increasing energy usage or carbon footprint.

In general, just as a point of discussion about energy and inflation.

It doesn’t appear to have anything to do with energy or inflation.

174 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:23:25am

re: #172 Political Atheist

Higher. Not high.

175 Political Atheist  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:24:39am

re: #173 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I didn’t claim cost could be ignored, and have no idea why you’d accuse me of something so stupid.

Okay we are talking past one another. Moving on.

176 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Sep 28, 2013 10:28:08am

re: #175 Political Atheist

Okay we are talking past one another. Moving on.

No, you’re making up a strawman of my argument and attacking it, as you do far too often. Costs cannot be ignored. Higher production costs prompt a decision: Whether you want to raise the prices, shrinking the market, whether you want to absorb the cost in a smaller profit margin, whether you want to improve efficiencies in the production to lower costs in other ways, whether you want to spend more on advertising to increase your market, etc. One simple way to deal with higher energy costs is by pushing working hours to other than 9-5, when energy costs are cheaper, for example.

One possible choice is ‘passing the cost’ to the customers, but it inevitably shrinks the market; if it doesn’t, you were an idiot for not selling at the higher price already.


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