Former Reviewer of UK Terror Laws: Publishing Snowden’s Leaks Did Huge Damage to UK Security

Police who detained Greenwald’s partner David Miranda were “rather kind to him”
World • Views: 24,353

The British government’s former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation had some very critical words for Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald yesterday: Publishing Edward Snowden Security Secrets a ‘Criminal’ Act, Says Former Terrorism Watchdog.

Lord Carlile said: “David Miranda, his partner Glenn Greenwald, Edward Snowden and the Guardian claim to be virtuous whistleblowers.

“Their virtue apparently includes travelling the world and publishing or seeking to publish secrets collected by the UK and other countries to protect their citizens.

“What kind of virtue is that? Mr Snowden has provided and the Guardian has published material that allegedly shows where and how the UK is functioning against terrorism.

“Is it anything other than criminal to seek to publish such secrets? In my view most right-thinking people would condemn Mr Snowden’s activities and question the actions of journalists whose newspapers may benefit from his wrongdoing.”

He added: “It is worth investigating whether there were any conspiracies to breach the Official Secrets Act.”

[…]

Addressing the detention by police of Mr Miranda at Heathrow, he said: “Mr Miranda was carrying electronic equipment, apparently including an electronic games device that could have contained a mass of secret information in digital form.

“Its publication could have resulted in disastrous undermining of the legitimate efforts of secret investigations, perhaps putting back for years the struggle against worldwide political violence.

“How could David Cameron or Theresa May have vetoed a search that might have protected Londoners from another bus or tube bombing?”

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122 comments
1 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 2:53:48pm

But Greenwald, grand pontifex of National Security, said everything was vetted and good to go!

2 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 2:56:19pm

I’d like to see a Greenwald or Assange type as a Bond villain.

3 piratedan  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 2:58:57pm

re: #2 Kragar

I’d like to see a Greenwald or Assange type as a Bond villain.

that got halfway there with Tomorrow Never Dies with Johnathan Pryce…. the thing is, how do you write the story? Bond under attack as his name, his family, his address and other personal information about him is exposed. His friends, his haunts, his preferences…. it would be like Bond himself would be under siege and his enemies get to stay in the shadows.

4 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:00:23pm

PLANT!

5 Targetpractice  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:01:57pm

re: #3 piratedan

that got halfway there with Tomorrow Never Dies with Johnathan Pryce…. the thing is, how do you write the story? Bond under attack as his name, his family, his address and other personal information about him is exposed. His friends, his haunts, his preferences…. it would be like Bond himself would be under siege and his enemies get to stay in the shadows.

I’d say setting up a scenario where the skeletons in Bond’s closet were revealed to the public, leaving the government and thus MI6 no choice but to release him from service just to address public demands for him to be made to answer for his actions…but they’ve already done the “Bond out in the cold” bit before. And such a storyline would inevitably run into the problem that individual movies can’t really have lasting effects on the franchise.

6 piratedan  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:04:59pm

re: #5 Targetpractice

I’d say setting up a scenario where the skeletons in Bond’s closet were revealed to the public, leaving the government and thus MI6 no choice but to release him from service just to address public demands for him to be made to answer for his actions…but they’ve already done the “Bond out in the cold” bit before. And such a storyline would inevitably run into the problem that individual movies can’t really have lasting effects on the franchise.

and as an additional point…. I really don’t think Greenwald is necessarily all that smart

7 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:05:19pm

[dudebro]Information wants to be free, man.[/dudebro]

8 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:06:44pm

re: #5 Targetpractice

I was more interested in them getting tossed out of a moving plane.

9 jaunte  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:07:36pm

Has GG called Lord Carlile a “drooling lackey” yet?

10 b.d.  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:11:10pm

re: #2 Kragar

I’d like to see a Greenwald or Assange type as a Bond villain.

In that case I’d love to see a 3 minute Bond movie

11 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:12:59pm

re: #10 b.d.

In that case I’d love to see a 3 minute Bond movie

“That’s a Smith and Wesson, and you’ve had your six.” *piff! piff! piff!*

12 dog philosopher  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:13:11pm

If you reload the page, by the way, you’ll notice that all the comment icons are now round. Because, that’s why.

“because the world is round, it turns me on”

13 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:13:15pm

Relevant to the Tolkien discussion downstairs, I give you the Stephen Fry interview on Colbert last night.

Note: probably NSFW. Unless you have headphones.

Comedy Central

14 b.d.  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:13:46pm

[dudebro] Glenn is destroying the UK in order to save it! [/dudebro]

15 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:14:05pm

re: #10 b.d.

In that case I’d love to see a 3 minute Bond movie

Perhaps he can be that little intro killing they often start the movie with?

16 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:14:28pm

Continuing the adventures of Proud Pundit

17 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:15:03pm

re: #12 dog philosopher

If you reload the page, by the way, you’ll notice that all the comment icons are now round. Because, that’s why.

“because the world is round, it turns me o-o-o-o-on”

FTFY

18 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:15:53pm

re: #16 Kragar

Continuing the adventures of Proud Pundit

[Embedded content]

Wait, so this is the living wage discussion, right?

Does she not believe that there is a minimum level of expenditures necessary to cover the basic necessities of life?

19 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:16:29pm

re: #18 klys

Wait, so this is the living wage discussion, right?

Does she not believe that there is a minimum level of expenditures necessary to cover the basic necessities of life?

LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS, MOOCHER!

20 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:16:43pm

re: #16 Kragar

Continuing the adventures of Proud Pundit

[Embedded content]

The other thing is that, in a self-governing country, the government is US. It’s an arm of society, and it is responsible for whatever society decides it’s responsible for

21 b.d.  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:17:28pm

If Glenn truly has anyone to be afraid of, it’s the Brits.

22 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:17:40pm

re: #19 Kragar

LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS, MOOCHER!

Yeah, that’s what I thought.

I’ll give you props for attempting to deal with the idiots though.

23 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:17:59pm

re: #18 klys

Wait, so this is the living wage discussion, right?

Does she not believe that there is a minimum level of expenditures necessary to cover the basic necessities of life?

If your job doesn’t cover the basic necessities, then get a better job!

24 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:18:02pm

re: #16 Kragar

Continuing the adventures of Proud Pundit

[Embedded content]

Yes, but to them that’s a feature not a bug.

25 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:18:48pm

re: #23 GeneJockey

If your job doesn’t cover the basic necessities, then get a better job!

Like tweeting right wing talking points on Twitter! Do it enough and you too can land a position on Fox News!

///

26 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:19:33pm

re: #22 klys

Yeah, that’s what I thought.

I’ll give you props for attempting to deal with the idiots though.

Talking with a guy in the office yesterday.

“Don’t you think working a job for a 40 hour work week should be able to sustain a family?”

“They can get a second job. My sister did.”

“SHE SHOULDN’T HAVE TO GET A SECOND JOB!”

27 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:21:17pm

Morons think working overtime or 2 jobs means they have what it takes to get ahead.

They never question the system making them work every moment of the day just to get by.

28 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:22:00pm

re: #26 Kragar

Talking with a guy in the office yesterday.

“Don’t you think working a job for a 40 hour work week should be able to sustain a family?”

“They can get a second job. My sister did.”

“SHE SHOULDN’T HAVE TO GET A SECOND JOB!”

Plus taking a SECOND job prevents some other person from getting a FIRST job.

Oh, and of course then they’ll bitch that she’s not spending enough time with the kids. Basically there’s never a reason to stop hating on The Poors.

29 makeitstop  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:23:07pm

‘Evening, Lizards.

OT: I had to go to Queens Traffic Court this afternoon (ticket dismissed! Yay me!), and on the ride home on the LIE, I happened upon one of those ‘overpass impeach Obama’ events in Nassau County (complete with Infowars banner!)

Fortunately, I was going slowly enough to take both hands off the wheel and extend both middle fingers at the overpass. Even more fortunately, my timing was good enough that the demonstrators (both of them) turned and looked down just in time to catch the salute.

Gotta say it was a good day…

30 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:23:21pm
31 piratedan  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:24:37pm

re: #30 Kragar

if only the answer to this was “go shopping”…… ////

32 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:24:38pm

re: #26 Kragar

Talking with a guy in the office yesterday.

“Don’t you think working a job for a 40 hour work week should be able to sustain a family?”

“They can get a second job. My sister did.”

“SHE SHOULDN’T HAVE TO GET A SECOND JOB!”

The RWNJ’s are having too much success going after the public sector unions this way.

RWNJ: Look at those amazing pensions the public sector is getting. You aren’t getting anything like that, and your taxes are paying for it. Those union crooks are getting away with murder.

Low Information Voter (LIV): Gee, that’s outrageous. Let’s cut the taxes and break the contracts.

The RWNJ would rather have an HF eyewash than admit that it is RWNJ union busting etc. in the private sector that is the main reason for LIV’s considerable economic hardship and distress.

33 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:27:18pm

re: #28 GeneJockey

Plus taking a SECOND job prevents some other person from getting a FIRST job.

Oh, and of course then they’ll bitch that she’s not spending enough time with the kids. Basically there’s never a reason to stop hating on The Poors.

The way all of the productivity increases of the last 30 years has gone to the top fraction of a percent make me think the work week should immediately go to 3 days/week.

If normal working people aren’t going to get any money out of this screwed up system, then they should not have to be working all the bloody time.

34 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:29:23pm

re: #32 EPR-radar

The RWNJ’s are having too much success going after the public sector unions this way.

RWNJ: Look at those amazing pensions the public sector is getting, You aren’t getting anything like that, and your taxes are paying for it. Those union crooks are getting away with murder.

Low Information Voter (LIV): Gee, that’s outrageous. Let’s cut the taxes and break the contracts.

The RWNJ would rather have an HF eyewash than admit that it is RWNJ union busting etc. in the private sector that is the main reason for LIV’s considerable economic hardship and distress.

Well, at least we’ve identified the half of the working class Jay Gould could pay to kill the other half.

Seriously, I am boggled by the mindset. An ultra-rich guy pays less of his income in taxes than most of us, and twists the laws to get even richer, and the Right applauds him. A worker wants a living wage, healthcare, and a decent retirement, and he’s a bloodsucker.

When did we start looking to blame each other for our shitty economic situation, and not those who profit from it?

35 Targetpractice  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:31:03pm

re: #8 Kragar

I was more interested in them getting tossed out of a moving plane.

“Or perhaps he’s wondering why someone would shoot a man, before throwing him out of a plane?”

/wait, sorry, wrong franchise

36 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:31:12pm

re: #33 EPR-radar

The way all of the productivity increases of the last 30 years has gone to the top fraction of a percent make me think the work week should immediately go to 3 days/week.

If normal working people aren’t going to get any money out of this screwed up system, then they should not have to be working all the bloody time.

This is how we envisioned it back in the 50s and 60s - that as productivity increased, the work week would grow shorter, and everyone would be wealthier.

That ain’t what happened.

37 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:33:48pm
38 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:34:07pm

re: #34 GeneJockey

Well, at least we’ve identified the half of the working class Jay Gould could pay to kill the other half.

Seriously, I am boggled by the mindset. An ultra-rich guy pays less of his income in taxes than most of us, and twists the laws to get even richer, and the Right applauds him. A worker wants a living wage, healthcare, and a decent retirement, and he’s a bloodsucker.

When did we start looking to blame each other for our shitty economic situation, and not those who profit from it?

Since the dawn of civilization. More to the point relating to US politics, the US GOP $$$ establishment saw racists etc. as blocks of easily manipulable people that could be induced to vote GOP out of resentment, thereby securing a base for a party that had been nearly mortally wounded by the successes of the New Deal and by the failure of GOP attempts to deal with the Great Depression.

39 Targetpractice  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:35:11pm

re: #37 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Or that you’re just playing by the other guy’s rules. Meanwhile he’s making a fortune on the stock market because the increased production you’re putting in is raising the value of your company’s stocks.

40 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:35:41pm

re: #36 GeneJockey

This is how we envisioned it back in the 50s and 60s - that as productivity increased, the work week would grow shorter, and everyone would be wealthier.

That ain’t what happened.

By now, I’d settle for one of the two (getting wealthier or working shorter hours).

This business of working harder for less (and being expected to be grateful to have a job at all) is for the birds.

41 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:36:03pm

What?

Everyone moved up-thread and left me downstairs?

:0

42 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:37:20pm

re: #41 FemNaziBitch

What?

Everyone moved up-thread and left me downstairs?

:0

Nah, I’ve been splitting my time.

43 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:37:36pm

re: #16 Kragar

Continuing the adventures of Proud Pundit

[Embedded content]

Wait, didn’t we already do that during the Gilded Age?

44 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:37:45pm

re: #40 EPR-radar

By now, I’d settle for one of the two (getting wealthier or working shorter hours).

This business of working harder for less (and being expected to be grateful to have a job at all) is for the birds.

That is the America that the Teabaggers would have us return to, though - one they never experienced, because they grew up in an era of high taxes on wealth, strong labor unions, and activist government. They think the post war economy was produced by Laissez Faire economics.

45 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:37:56pm

I gotta feed the dogs …

bbl

46 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:39:01pm
47 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:39:08pm

My least favorite thing: when you notice a typo in your comment but the editing time has expired. :(

48 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:39:25pm

re: #43 FemNaziBitch

Wait, didn’t we already do that during the Gilded Age?

Unpossible. Historical data rejected. True conservatism has never been tried. All past failures in history are due to liberals. Therefore the robber barons were liberals…. Need meds….

49 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:41:13pm

re: #47 klys

My least favorite thing: when you notice a typo in your comment but the editing time has expired. :(

Excellent. It therefore follows that all anti-conservative arguments you have ever posted are invalid.

50 AlexRogan  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:41:24pm

re: #2 Kragar

I’d like to see a Greenwald or Assange type as a Bond villain.

re: #3 piratedan

that got halfway there with Tomorrow Never Dies with Johnathan Pryce…. the thing is, how do you write the story? Bond under attack as his name, his family, his address and other personal information about him is exposed. His friends, his haunts, his preferences…. it would be like Bond himself would be under siege and his enemies get to stay in the shadows.

Combine Elliott Carver from Tomorrow Never Dies with Silva from Skyfall.

51 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:46:52pm

It’s Friday afternoon, and so here’s a rainy day Harajuku to keep the Japanese in your thoughts after today’s earthquake.

(According to Japanese news reports, the highest tsunami reported was 40 cm.)

52 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:50:06pm

Crime in progress —what would you do?

Youtube Video
also Paged.

53 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:52:59pm

re: #46 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Health and welfare spending also addresses much more tangible threats to American lives and the economy than a lot of current defense spending does. We could almost certainly cut away half or more of the nuclear navy and overseas bases without any impact at all on the effectiveness of our defensive posture. I’m not in favor of Randian isolationism, but there’s something seriously counterproductive about how we don’t prioritize the actual threats facing real Americans in America in favor of engaging more nebulous enemies abroad. Enemies that we helped create and that we continue to perpetuate.

54 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:53:10pm

re: #52 FemNaziBitch

Crime in progress —what would you do?

[Embedded content]


also Paged?

I’m not being a fanatic here. Call it attempted rape-or kidnapping. Call the cops, even if they don’t arrest the guy, you’ve prevented him from taking her out the door. You’ve given her time to call a friend to get her.

Don’t be afraid to take control of the situation. Be a Bitch. Even if you are a guy.

55 compound_Idaho  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:53:18pm

re: #44 GeneJockey

Much of the post war economy was a result that all foreign competition was bombed into rubble.

56 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:53:34pm

Now I am really going to feed the dogs.

57 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:54:16pm

re: #55 compound_Idaho

Much of the post war economy was a result that all foreign competition was bombed into rubble.

[citation needed]

58 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:58:26pm

re: #55 compound_Idaho

Much of the post war economy was a result that all foreign competition was bombed into rubble.

That’s a common enough claim, but I’d also point out that as our economy grew, and productivity grew, wealth and income grew at all levels. After 1980, the economy grew, and productivity grew, and wealth grew at the top.

In other words, the money kept coming in in bigger and bigger amounts, but it no longer got shared by everyone. Instead it went more and more to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.

I’m not sure how that is a function of the rest of the world having the shit kicked out of it, rather than the legislative and societal changes, like the busting of unions, the dropping of trade barriers, the deregulation of banking and finance, etc.

59 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:59:31pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

Health and welfare spending also addresses much more tangible threats to American lives and the economy than a lot of current defense spending does. We could almost certainly cut away half or more of the nuclear navy and overseas bases without any impact at all on the effectiveness of our defensive posture. I’m not in favor of Randian isolationism, but there’s something seriously counterproductive about how we don’t prioritize the actual threats facing real Americans in America in favor of engaging more nebulous enemies abroad. Enemies that we helped create and that we continue to perpetuate.

To be blunt, I think US over-militarization is a deliberate policy choice put in place by the US ruling class to serve as a distraction from domestic economic issues.

60 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 3:59:48pm

re: #58 GeneJockey

That’s a common enough claim, but I’d also point out that as our economy grew, and productivity grew, wealth and income grew at all levels. After 1980, the economy grew, and productivity grew, and wealth grew at the top.

In other words, the money kept coming in in bigger and bigger amounts, but it no longer got shared by everyone. Instead it went more and more to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.

I’m not sure how that is a function of the rest of the world having the shit kicked out of it, rather than the legislative and societal changes, like the busting of unions, the dropping of trade barriers, the deregulation of banking and finance, etc.

RUN FROM THE RATIONAL LOGIC! IT IS EVIL!

///

61 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:00:23pm

re: #51 klys

Reminds me that I haven’t been in contact with my Japanese friends in quite some time.

In light of big things like these (e.g., major disaster causing events, though fortunately this one was far enough off shore) so much of the whining that is done in American media is down right asinine.

62 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:00:54pm

re: #58 GeneJockey

That’s a common enough claim, but I’d also point out that as our economy grew, and productivity grew, wealth and income grew at all levels. After 1980, the economy grew, and productivity grew, and wealth grew at the top.

In other words, the money kept coming in in bigger and bigger amounts, but it no longer got shared by everyone. Instead it went more and more to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.

I’m not sure how that is a function of the rest of the world having the shit kicked out of it, rather than the legislative and societal changes, like the busting of unions, the dropping of trade barriers, the deregulation of banking and finance, etc.

Globalizing the labor markets is especially pernicious. There is simply no way that lower cost on some goods and services can compensate for the lost jobs.

63 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:01:42pm

re: #61 freetoken

Reminds me that I haven’t been in contact with my Japanese friends in quite some time.

In light of big things like these (e.g., major disaster causing events, though fortunately this one was far enough off shore) so much of the whining that is done in American media is down right asinine.

The typhoon roughly a week ago likely had a much bigger impact - the landslides on Izu Oshima may have killed 50+ people.

Of course, this didn’t make the US press at all.

64 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:02:31pm

Speaking of asininity:

State climate change study may go begging for scientists

Nebraska may be poised to conduct a climate change study that its own scientists don’t want to be associated with.

The state’s drought and climate task force wrestled Wednesday with the awkward job of developing a study on the impact of climate change in Nebraska but possibly excluding the role of humans in changing the climate.

[…]

The Legislature approved the study this year and handed the task to Nebraska’s already-existing Climate Assessment and Response Committee, a governor-appointed group that mostly advises the state on drought issues.

The sticking point in Wednesday’s discussion, beyond the lack of money and time for the study, was what the Legislature meant when it voted to limit the study to “cyclical” climate change.

The word “cyclical” was added to the legislation by State Sen. Beau McCoy, a Republican who represents western Douglas County and is a candidate for governor. McCoy could not be reached late Wednesday.

Last April, during debate on the bill, McCoy said: “I don’t subscribe to global warming. I think there are normal, cyclical changes.”

[…]

65 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:03:15pm

re: #60 klys

RUN FROM THE RATIONAL LOGIC! IT IS EVIL!

///

Just wait till I get to the part where, as wages stagnated but ever-increasing consumer spending was still needed to drive the economy, credit was made ever easier, resulting in income redistribution from the bottom to the top. This allowed the rich to take even more from the poor than just their underpaid labor - now they have an income stream as less affluent folks pay their debts.

But that’s not all! The well off also get to piss all over the less well off for borrowing all that money that kept the economy growing all those years!

66 thedopefishlives  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:05:29pm

Evening again. Popping in and out of threads as the fishfolk find fun family things to do.

67 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:07:42pm

re: #65 GeneJockey

Just wait till I get to the part where, as wages stagnated but ever-increasing consumer spending was still needed to drive the economy, credit was made ever easier, resulting in income redistribution from the bottom to the top. This allowed the rich to take even more from the poor than just their underpaid labor - now they have an income stream as less affluent folks pay their debts.

But that’s not all! The well off also get to piss all over the less well off for borrowing all that money that kept the economy growing all those years!

There’s more: Bankruptcy law ‘reform’ to make debts harder to get rid of, Austerity plans in Europe condemning entire nations to decades of servitude. It’s endless.

No conspiracy needed. Just the natural result of rational and powerful agents (i.e., the wealthy) operating to maximize their results in a capital uber alles system.

68 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:11:24pm

re: #64 freetoken

Good for the scientists. Looks like the Nebraska legislature will have a hard time finding credible people to use for its propaganda exercise.

69 GeneJockey  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:13:55pm

re: #67 EPR-radar

There’s more: Bankruptcy law ‘reform’ to make debts harder to get rid of, Austerity plans in Europe condemning entire nations to decades of servitude. It’s endless.

No conspiracy needed. Just the natural result of rational and powerful agents (i.e., the wealthy) operating to maximize their results in a capital uber alles system.

And this is the part that I stress when I’m accused of calling corporations or the rich ‘evil’. Concentration of wealth and power are the natural consequence of Free Market Capitalism. The less regulated, the faster it concentrates, because as you may have noticed, while the Free Market may reward innovation, hard work, and risk taking, what it primarily rewards is having money.

70 dog philosopher  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:16:35pm

re: #69 GeneJockey

the Free Market may reward innovation, hard work, and risk taking

at the same time than american parents attempt to train their children in obedience, conformism, and risk avoidance

71 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:17:36pm

re: #69 GeneJockey

And this is the part that I stress when I’m accused of calling corporations or the rich ‘evil’. Concentration of wealth and power are the natural consequence of Free Market Capitalism. The less regulated, the faster it concentrates, because as you may have noticed, while the Free Market may reward innovation, hard work, and risk taking, what it primarily rewards is having money.

As a follow up to this, unless someone comes up with a much better idea, we really do need a return to much higher tax rates on the wealthy. This isn’t out of some desire to ‘soak the rich’ for the hell of it. That’s simply the only place in the private sector where there is any money to be had.

72 dog philosopher  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:19:52pm

free market, who cares

the whole setup is an artificial construct that evolved during the industrial revolution - as a model for human society, it sucks

73 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:20:30pm

The DC media circuit is one of our favorite targets, and for good reason.

Slate dumped several articles online a few minutes ago, including this one:

Why We Need a Healthcare.gov Witch Hunt

Washington think tanks your moment has arrived! Healthcare.gov is a mess and someone must chronicle exactly what went wrong. The press is trying, of course, but we also must cover the aftermath—the parade of predictable behavior that obscures more than it illuminates. Did you see the hearing in the House Energy and Commerce Committee yesterday? Despite the best efforts of Chairman Fred Upton, between the grandstanding, confused questions, and the witness fog machine, it’s a wonder anyone got out alive. Meanwhile, Republicans are pointing fingers, placing blame, and otherwise showing disgust that a program that they have tried to kill is being run so badly. (Perhaps they’re jealous that the administration is better at undermining Obamacare than they are.) Administration officials, on the other hand, are caught between covering their backsides, spouting plumes of happy talk, and hiring more people to collect the springs and sprockets from the launch pad where the whole thing went kaput. On Friday, officials in charge of the #techsurge said that healthcare.gov would be running smoothly by late November, two months after the launch.

[…]

This is just a lot of noise by John Dickerson. For example, this from farther down the page:

Precision in this hunt is the key. Usually in investigations you need subpoena power. That doesn’t seem to be an issue. (Though I’d still put a hand on the shredders at Health and Human Services and the White House just to see if they’re warm.) In this case, what’s needed is some expertise, patience, and methodical reasoning. These attributes have long since banned from congressional hearings. There are nevertheless people in Washington think tanks who will be excited to think through these matters.

A precise example of the kind of thinking that’s required is in David Auerbach’s wonderful deconstruction of yesterday’s hearing. Talking about the watery responses from the witnesses, Auerbach writes, “They don’t seem to understand the difference between acceptable and unacceptable bugs, and worse, they don’t seem to know that there is a difference.” The point is that there’s a distinction between garden-variety problems and catastrophic problems that you could either have seen coming or for which you should have been on guard because they’re so damaging. So, using that same fine screen: What problems here are the normal ones you’d have in any big enterprise, what are the problems that are the result of unique one-time-only stupidity, and what are the problems that result from this being a government rather than private enterprise?

[…]

No, John, no. This kind of forced partitioning of “problems” is simply being created to pander to the anti-government crowd.

Anyone who has been involved in project management (of large projects) knows that there are always “problems”, that many don’t become obvious until after the fact, and that each project has its own unique issues. This is not a government vs. not-government issue.

It’s typical for very large projects to not meet original deadlines. Early program reviews are essential to address this all too common systems development reality. If a calender delivery date is not-negotiable then either functionality or cost needs to be adjusted.

This current frenzy for finding a scapegoat over this ACA website exposes both the ignorance and hubris of the incestuous DC politician-media circus.

74 piratedan  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:20:43pm

re: #71 EPR-radar

As a follow up to this, unless someone comes up with a much better idea, we really do need a return to much higher tax rates on the wealthy. This isn’t out of some desire to ‘soak the rich’ for the hell of it. That’s simply the only place in the private sector where there is any money to be had.

and there’s a whole LOT of it there….. maybe just call it a CEO tax

75 dog philosopher  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:25:25pm

re: #73 freetoken

i’m shocked - shocked! - to find that a software project wasn’t ready on time!

76 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:25:29pm

re: #74 piratedan

and there’s a whole LOT of it there….. maybe just call it a CEO tax

(deleted for inaccurate statements of fact)

77 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:30:09pm

re: #74 piratedan

and there’s a whole LOT of it there….. maybe just call it a CEO tax

I remain convinced that Romney didn’t release more years of tax returns because they would have shown him paying taxes at very low rates, perfectly legally.

78 dog philosopher  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:31:17pm

re: #71 EPR-radar

As a follow up to this, unless someone comes up with a much better idea, we really do need a return to much higher tax rates on the wealthy. This isn’t out of some desire to ‘soak the rich’ for the hell of it. That’s simply the only place in the private sector where there is any money to be had.

how about tariffs and the liquor tax circa 1865 - 1912?

79 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:34:49pm

re: #76 EPR-radar

And having only three federal tax brackets is more nonsense. There should be more brackets.

Why do we even need “brackets”?

80 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:35:08pm

re: #78 dog philosopher

how about tariffs and the liquor tax circa 1865 - 1912?

I don’t like the liquor tax because, like all consumption taxes, it is regressive.

Tariffs have the same problem, but might have other uses (e.g., mitigating ill effects of globalization). I don’t see any way for tariffs to be a source of significant revenue.

81 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:36:30pm

re: #79 freetoken

Why do we even need “brackets”?

A progressive tax system is going to have brackets that define where the marginal rates increase.

Since I favor a progressive tax, I like the brackets.

82 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:36:43pm

And then we have this:

Macedonian Orthodox Church bans clergy from using Facebook

Macedonia’a Orthodox Church on Friday ordered its priests and nuns not to use Facebook or be ready to face unnamed sanctions, church officials said.

“Everyone among the clergy will face sanctions if using Facebook,” the church’s spokesman, Bishop Timotej, told reporters.

The bishop did not reveal the reasons for the ban, but sources from the church said the measure would be “imposed especially for those expressing personal attitudes on Facebook.”

[…]

83 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:37:47pm

re: #81 EPR-radar

My point is, with all these fancy computer-thingies, we can now have a continuous curve and not need the brackets, which were made for humans.

84 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:39:34pm

And the continuous curve need not be a straight line - indeed, it probably ought not be.

The slope should be very gently positive for the lower income range, and the slope then should increase as incomes approach and pass 6 figures.

85 dog philosopher  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:40:26pm

re: #79 freetoken

Why do we even need “brackets”?

because you can’t do everything with parentheses unless you’re programming in LISP

86 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:41:27pm

re: #83 freetoken

My point is, with all these fancy computer-thingies, we can now have a continuous curve and not need the brackets, which were made for humans.

I see. Brackets are simple enough, and create no discontinuity in taxes paid.

Replacing such a system with a computer generated ‘black box’ would not be politically sensible.

After all, the RWNJs already have a cottage industry of pretending to not understand how the existing brackets work.

God only knows what they would do with an IRS computer black box for the tax calculations. Glenn Beck’s head might explode (I suppose that would be a reason to favor the change).

87 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:42:32pm

re: #84 freetoken

And the continuous curve need not be a straight line - indeed, it probably ought not be.

The slope should be very gently positive for the lower income range, and the slope then should increase as incomes approach and pass 6 figures.

I am more in favor of simplifying income definitions (income is income) and then tweaking the brackets as needed.

88 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:42:32pm

re: #85 dog philosopher

because you can’t do everything with parentheses unless you’re programming in LISP

Shorts for Lots of Insane Stupid Parentheses?

89 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:43:06pm

re: #85 dog philosopher

because you can’t do everything with parentheses unless you’re programming in LISP

Thank you, but I don’t need gin and tonic out my nose.

90 thedopefishlives  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:43:21pm

re: #85 dog philosopher

because you can’t do everything with parentheses unless you’re programming in LISP

Elegant weapons, for a more civilized age.

91 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:44:34pm

re: #87 klys

The key, I think, isn’t so much over brackets, but what constitutes “income”. How much wealth evades taxation because it is pretending to be something other than taxable income?

92 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:45:26pm

re: #87 klys

I am more in favor of simplifying income definitions (income is income) and then tweaking the brackets as needed.

That’s definitely the bigger part of the puzzle, for sure.

What gets me about the tax rates is that I can’t imagine a world where US representative government enacted a top tax rate of 70% or more.

93 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:46:48pm

re: #85 dog philosopher

because you can’t do everything with parentheses unless you’re programming in LISP

God programmed the world in LISP.

Youtube Video

94 EPR-radar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:46:57pm

re: #91 freetoken

The key, I think, isn’t so much over brackets, but what constitutes “income”. How much wealth evades taxation because it is pretending to be something other than taxable income?

Enormous amounts, mostly perfectly legal. Romney’s undisclosed tax returns would have amounted to a doctoral dissertation by practical expertise on the subject.

95 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:50:07pm

re: #91 freetoken

The key, I think, isn’t so much over brackets, but what constitutes “income”. How much wealth evades taxation because it is pretending to be something other than taxable income?

Not to mention makes a headache.

We have stock obtained through the Employee Stock Purchase Plan. It was discounted.

The difference between the discounted purchase price and the normal price is considered “normal” income and taxed as such. Any gain above that is taxed like capital gains. This isn’t touching the dividends, of course. And the employer didn’t report this on the W2, so it’s up to us to interpret the IRS paperwork and figure out what tax was owed.

There’s a reason I drink on the first pass through on tax paperwork.

96 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:55:24pm
97 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:57:44pm

I may be a bad person, but I really like the “Don’t Drive Angry” episode of Mythbusters.

98 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 4:59:04pm
99 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:00:08pm

It came up with the funeral dis-invite, and now the Crist campaign looks more certain:

Ex-Florida governor moves close to announcing bid for old job

[…]


In June, a Quinnipiac poll measuring a potential Scott-Crist match-up gave the newly minted Democrat a commanding lead over Scott, a wealthy former healthcare executive.

[…]

I wonder if this will hold up.

100 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:02:53pm

Speaking of wacky right-wing governors, Weigel profiles Walker’s bio:

God’s Co-Pilot

[…]

“Only later did I realize that God had a plan for me with that episode [of a prank],” writes Walker. After his press conference, he picked up his daily devotional and saw the title for Feb. 23: The power of humility, the burden of pride.

[…]

101 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:03:13pm

Why is it so hard for people to understand that a member of a historical slave owning group using the n_____ word has a completely different connotation than when used by a member of the historical slave group.

102 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:03:17pm

re: #14 b.d.

[dudebro] Glenn is destroying the UK in order to save it! [/dudebro]

The Glenn Tre Solution.

103 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:05:53pm

Oh dear sweet nutjob pundit

104 austin_blue  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:06:13pm

re: #64 freetoken

Speaking of asininity:

State climate change study may go begging for scientists

Another Useful Idiot for the Carbon Moguls.

105 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:06:42pm

re: #100 freetoken

Speaking of wacky right-wing governors, Weigel profiles Walker’s bio:

God’s Co-Pilot

That section isn’t crazy. It’s the kind of thing a religious person might well feel upon reflection.

106 Targetpractice  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:08:53pm

re: #98 Kragar

[Embedded content]

When they decided that they and those like them were “The People” and everybody else might as well be foreigners in their own country.

107 austin_blue  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:09:07pm

re: #87 klys

I am more in favor of simplifying income definitions (income is income) and then tweaking the brackets as needed.

As long as capital gains are indexed for inflation, sure.

108 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:09:41pm
109 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:09:59pm

McClatchy writers Hannah Allam and Jonathan S. Landay trying real hard:

World’s anger at Obama policies goes beyond Europe and the NSA

Writers with agendas. I guess all writers will have them, but the pretense of being a “journalist” while being more about sensationalism or even more so an ideologue, is so wearying these days.

110 klys  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:10:03pm

re: #107 austin_blue

As long as capital gains are indexed for inflation, sure.

I’m on board with that. Dividends, on the other hand…

111 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:13:43pm

re: #104 austin_blue

Good, you’re here. I’ve been saving this one for you for a while:

Smart Bombs Keep B-52s In Business

Despite their age, the U.S. Air Force is continuing to upgrade its fifty year old B-52s. The latest upgrade will enable B-52 crew to program (enter GPS coordinates for a target) smart bombs carried internally. Previously only the smart bombs carried under the wings could be programmed by the crew. This upgrade simply means wiring the bomb bay so that smart bombs can be plugged into the aircraft fire control system. This is important because that makes it possible to carry other programmable weapons like the MALD (radar and anti-aircraft missile decoys) and the JASSM (long range smart bombs used for taking out enemy air defenses). By 2017, 44 B-52s will have their bomb bay wiring upgraded.

The B-52 had earlier been modified so it could carry over a hundred of the 130 kg (285 pound) Small Diameter Bombs (SDB, also known as the GBU-39/B). Back in 2006, the rotary bomb rack inside the B-52 was modified to carry 32 SDBs instead of 15 larger bombs. The B-52 could already carry more SDBs under its wings using special racks that held 4 SBDs where 1 larger bomb would normally be.

Until the recent upgrades, the SBDs carried internally had to receive their target coordinates on the ground, not in the air. The ability to enter or change GPS coordinates in smart bombs is necessary now because heavy bombers typically stay in the air over the combat zone for 8 hours or more at a time, delivering smart bombs as needed by troops on the ground. The B-52 also has its own targeting pod now that enables the crew to spot targets, program one of its smart bombs, and take them out without needing GPS coordinates from someone on the ground.

112 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:16:04pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Good, you’re here. I’ve been saving this one for you for a while:

Smart Bombs Keep B-52s In Business

I want to know when we plan to replace the pathetically out dated M-2.
///

113 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:16:11pm

re: #108 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Welcome to Twitter!

114 Targetpractice  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:17:10pm

re: #112 Kragar

I want to know when we plan to replace the pathetically out dated M-2.
///

Just as soon as they develop plasma rifles.

//

115 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:17:44pm

re: #113 wrenchwench

Welcome to Twitter!

I am new to your land and unfamiliar with its customs and practices.

116 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:18:38pm

re: #112 Kragar

I want to know when we plan to replace the pathetically out dated M-2.
///

If you mean the Bradley, I don’t see that happening any times soon. The sequester leaves no budget for a program of that size.

117 Kragar  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:20:33pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

If you mean the Bradley, I don’t see that happening any times soon. The sequester leaves no budget for a program of that size.

I was talking about the Browning.

90+ years old. Talk about your hunk of junk.
/

118 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:22:12pm

re: #115 Kragar

I am new to your land and unfamiliar with its customs and practices.

Shoot first, worry about what you hit much later.

119 Targetpractice  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:22:43pm

re: #117 Kragar

I was talking about the Browning.

90+ years old. Talk about your hunk of junk.
/

Tell that to anybody who’s ever been at the receiving end. I imagine even John Browning would be impressed by how long his gun’s been around.

120 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:23:49pm

re: #117 Kragar

I was talking about the Browning.

90+ years old. Talk about your hunk of junk.
/

They just updated it to take a quick change barrel! I’ll have you know that those are M2A1s, not simply M2s!

/This really has happened.

121 freetoken  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:23:51pm

1700 years later, we still have people believing in magic words.

Ancient Magician’s Curse Tablet Discovered in Jerusalem

A lead curse tablet, dating back around 1,700 years and likely written by a magician, has been discovered in a collapsed Roman mansion in Jerusalem, archaeologists report.

The mansion, which is being excavated by the Israel Antiquities Authority in the Givati Parking Lot, is located in what is known as the “City of David,” an area that holds at least 6,000 years of human occupation. […]

Let me just stop right there. I don’t know why the writers inserted that “6,000 years”. Perhaps that particular hillside has been excavated enough times before and no one has discovered any other human settlements or remains. But, it’s still a strange wording.

Anatomically modern human groups have been in the Levant for a very long time, perhaps as long as 100,000 years (roughly the date of the oldest AMH skeletal remains found there.) There’s no reason to put in the “6000” year figure when the hillside settlements in the region predate those times, and the earliest cities in the are go back 10,000 years at least, unless one really has dug up the whole hillside and not found remains older than 6000 years. But that is not reported and I have not seen such. Suspicious me thinks the “6000” figure is a hangover from creationism.

Anyway, going on:

The text is written in Greek and, in it a woman named Kyrilla invokes the names of six gods to cast a curse on a man named Iennys, apparently over a legal case.

“I strike and strike down and nail down the tongue, the eyes, the wrath, the ire, the anger, the procrastination, the opposition of Iennys,” part of the curse reads in translation. Kyrilla asks the gods to ensure that “he in no way oppose, so that he say or perform nothing adverse to Kyrilla … but rather that Iennys, whom the womb bore, be subject to her…”

To obtain her goal Kyrilla combined elements from four religions,[…]. Of six gods invoked, four of them are Greek (Hermes, Persephone, Pluto and Hecate), one is Babylonian (Ereschigal) and one, Abrasax, is Gnostic, a religion connected to early Christianity. Additionally, the text contains magic words such as “Iaoth” that have a Hebrew/Judaism origin.

A professional magician likely created the curse for Kyrilla, who may have literally used a hammer and nails to perform a magical rite that enhanced the effectiveness of the curse, Daniel said.

“The hammering and nailing is a form of gaining control over the person(s) targeted in magical texts,” he wrote in the email.

[…]

Magic words, magic hammers and nails (which ought to sound familiar), this all sounds like what we hear from the fundamentalists in our own society.

Have we really changed all that much?

122 Teukka  Fri, Oct 25, 2013 5:42:24pm

re: #108 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Rejoice that you recognized the the Bible thumping Illuminati whackjob without too much time wasted.
Every cloud has its silver lining.


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