Greenwald’s Shock News of the Day: The US Spies on Foreign Leaders

Gasp
Opinion • Views: 18,081

Josh Marshall has it about right: Ok, Please, Enough.

Churning through countless domestic phone calls is one thing - that has very real constitutional implications. It may be a similar thing with doing that in Spain or other countries in Europe and the Middle East, though the constitutional questions are very different. But please, please spare me the shock and surprise that the US spies on foreign leaders, even allies, even close allies. These countries spy on our leaders too. The only real exception is within the special club of the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand where, for a variety of historical reasons, a pretty different set of rules and integration apply.

Now, as a domestic political matter, I totally understand why these European leaders are freaked. It’s a big problem for them domestically when it’s laid out so baldly in front of everyone. Beyond national security issues, this will likely take a real economic toll on the US. So I’m not surprised at the reaction. I don’t begrudge it. But the tenor of the reporting in the US is frankly bizarre, either totally tendentious or wildly naive.

The disruption that Marshall mentions in the second paragraph is, of course, exactly what Greenwald intends with these continuing NSA stories. By publicly embarrassing the leaders of Spain, Germany, etc., he forces them to make statements to address the public outcry — which usually ends up making them look even worse.

Meanwhile, Greenwald continues to deny even the possibility that his reckless pseudo-journalism might be causing real harm to national security — not just America’s national security, but all of the countries he’s pulling into his little super-villain ego-driven melodrama.

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95 comments
1 Tigger2  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:19:48pm

“US Spies on Foreign Leaders”

This has been going on ever since the very first Leaders of countries have existed , that’s what foreign countries do It’s nothing new.

2 gummitch  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:22:01pm

Greenwald is now being ballyhooed as the future of real journalism, even by actual mainstream journalists. Just try convincing anyone that he’s consistently wrong and a disgrace to journalism.

3 erik_t  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:23:04pm

The unsaid other side of the coin: how wildly naive are the populations of Spain, Germany, Brazil, etc. on this issue?

Or are they just anxious to be grumpy, and will take something obvious and well-known as an opportunity to throw a protest?

4 Jack Burton  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:23:31pm

The fauxtrage over this nontroversy, and all the theatrical responses from Europe is especially laughable given that it’s not exactly a secret that the number one perpetrator of espionage in the United States is, not China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, but is in fact France.

Yep “allies don’t spy on each other”…

Seriously, please let the adults do the speaking Glenn.

5 Kragar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:25:08pm

Everyone knows there was no such thing as spying before the foundation of the United States.

6 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:25:47pm

re: #4 Jack Burton

The fauxtrage over this nontroversy, and all the theatrical responses from Europe is especially laughable given that it’s not exactly a secret that the number one perpetrator of espionage in the United States is, not China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, but is in fact France.

Yep “allies don’t spy on each other”…

Seriously, please let the adults do the speaking Glenn.

Right, because you can always depend on the Germans to be peaceful, and not start something.
/////

7 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:26:10pm

re: #5 Kragar

Everyone knows there was no such thing as spying before the foundation of the United States.

Nathan Hale was a myth!

8 dog philosopher  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:30:51pm

i’m very concerned about the future of newts

9 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:33:10pm

Greenwald himself is always careful not to come right out and say he wants to destroy the whole concept of espionage and secrecy, but many of the people in his inner circles are very open about it. These people are incredibly egotistical and privileged, with a massive sense of entitlement and self-worth, and they have no real grasp of the gravity of the shit they’re messing around with.

10 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:35:28pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Greenwald himself is always careful not to come right out and say he wants to destroy the whole concept of espionage and secrecy, but many of the people in his inner circles are very open about it. These people are incredibly egotistical and privileged, with a massive sense of entitlement and self-worth, and they have no real grasp of the gravity of the shit they’re messing around with.

If you shame countries capable of shame into stopping espionage, surveillance, and secrecy, what you’re left with is countries that are NOT capable of shame still spying, eavesdropping, and keeping secrets. Hell, why not just unilaterally disarm, while we’re at it?

11 Kragar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:37:00pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Glenn just wants to start shit.

“I think it really reflects two very competing and different but strong frames in how journalism is understood: the kind of traditional New York Times model that I think has neutered and, in a lot of ways, helped to kill journalism as a potent force for checking power, and the kind of journalism that I think we intend to do, where it is much more passionate and intended to be overtly adversarial to those in power,” Greenwald told Democracy Now.

12 Mike Lamb  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:37:15pm

So what’s Greenwald’s solution here? Someone posted a tweet where he said that, in effect, privacy concerns shouldn’t recognize borders. I’m not sure there is any provision of the Constitution, or that there is any law, domestic or international, that would preclude a country from engaging in intelligence activities against another country. So again, what is the solution? Does he expect the US to tie its own hands in terms of international surveillance? What standing would someone in Spain (taking dual citizenship or resident alien issues out of the question) have to object to US intelligence gathering?

When I see this type of “revelation”, it really does seem to boil down to the notion that Greenwald doesn’t believe that any gov’t has the right to engage in espionage/spying of any kind—foreign or domestic. If that’s the case, it’s just example no. eleventy billion of the naive, reductionist world view held by most libertarians.

Honestly, is there more than fringe support for this idea that privacy issues extend to other countries/non-citizens? I can’t imagine there is.

13 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:37:43pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

They clearly think that they know more and better than everyone else in the room. Or in the world. And that it’s their job and mission to change the world to match their visions.

Curiously though, the focus is nearly entirely on the US intelligence apparatus and ignores countries where the police state is a real and tangible thing - as in Russia, where you can be disappeared all too easily, where if you are openly gay, you’re deemed a threat, and engaging in free speech and criticism can give you a one-way pass to prison.

15 darthstar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:38:18pm

I like that the administration is being so transparent with the issues on healthcare.gov.


The following items were recently released into production in order to improve the user experience:

1 We’ve tuned configurations to various system components to improve site responsiveness. This has increased performance across the site. As an example, viewing and filtering health plans during the online shopping process now responds in seconds, not minutes.

2. We’ve resolved issues with how eligibility notices are presented to consumers so that those now display properly at the completion of the application process.

Rolling fixes, just as I had predicted. Take care of the more visible pain points first, while continuously testing the rest of the architecture. That’s how it’s done in the real world.

16 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:39:24pm

re: #11 Kragar

Glenn just wants to start shit.

Ayep. Glenn’s the kinda guy who’d troll a messageboard by doing the equivalent of lobbing a grenade into the middle of a crowd and then, when called on starting a huge fight, just shrug and go “All I wanted to do was start a discussion.”

17 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:41:14pm

Glenn Greenwald should have his own reality show, “Doing Journalism With Glenn Greenwald” like Donald Trump’s “The Apprentice.”

He can have young, idealistic wannabee journalists on the show, competing for the big scoop. The losers get stranded in foreign airports or sentenced to max security prisons. The winners get to be mentioned by Glenn in his Twitter feed!

18 GlutenFreeJesus  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:42:18pm

re: #5 Kragar

Everyone knows there was no such thing as spying before the foundation of the United States.

You mean before OBAMAO!

19 simoom  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:44:58pm

It wasn’t that long ago that it was a central tenant of Snowden-as-whistleblower apologetics how his leaks only covered US domestic issues and he was so very careful not to damage US foreign intelligence gathering. Now of course Greenwald and Poitras’ focus is almost entirely on causing maximal damage to US interests abroad using the Snowden material. The next time someone gets an interview with Snowden I really hope they pin him down on the topic. He should be prodded to either side with Greenwald’s anti-western intelligence crusade or to split with him on how he’s been using the leaked documents. In his recent NYT interview he was allowed to make all sorts of claims about how brilliantly he’s protecting US secrets from our adversaries, even as Greenwald has continued to dump those secrets (cherry-picked, spun and exaggerated) into the public domain.

20 dog philosopher  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:45:27pm

re: #14 GeneJockey

Rand Paul manages to simultaneously warn that Liberals are going to kill fat, stupid people, AND attribute all ‘valuable’ traits exclusively to genetics.

it’s typical of wingnut arguments that all individual points exist in isolation and don’t necessarily agree with one another

21 blueraven  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:45:32pm

When Greenwald, Snowden and all the other bros start dumping Russia and China spy documents I will pay attention. Until then, they are hypocrites.

22 Lidane  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:46:30pm

re: #7 Feline Fearless Leader

Nathan Hale was a myth!

So was the Cold War.

23 dog philosopher  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:46:42pm

the future of news

yellow journalism in the united states has existed for at least 150 years now

news on the internet may seem different but it isn’t really

24 D Johnston  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:46:46pm

re: #14 GeneJockey

“In your lifetime, much of your potential — or lack thereof — can be known simply by swabbing the inside of your cheek,” Paul said to a packed sporting arena on Liberty’s campus. “Are we prepared to select out the imperfect among us?”

Someone just watched Gattaca, I see. It would be nice if our leaders would get their scientific information from scientists and not from science fiction films.

25 William of Orange  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:47:09pm

Lou Reed and RIPs.

26 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:48:29pm

re: #20 dog philosopher

it’s typical of wingnut arguments that all individual points exist in isolation and don’t necessarily agree with one another

Yeah. And they like to call things ‘common sense’, so that you don’t actually think about them.

27 darthstar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:50:38pm

re: #25 William of Orange

Lou Reed and RIPs.

[Embedded content]

I’m really going to miss Lou Reed. Just knowing he was still on this planet gave me solace.

28 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:50:39pm

re: #24 D Johnston

Someone just watched Gattaca, I see. It would be nice if our leaders would get their scientific information from scientists and not from science fiction films.

Well, yeah, BUT SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION AND GLOBAL WARMING!!!11!!1!!, so there’s that.

29 gwangung  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:51:15pm

re: #19 simoom

It wasn’t that long ago that it was a central tenant of Snowden-as-whistleblower apologetics how his leaks only covered US domestic issues and he was so very careful not to damage US foreign intelligence gathering.

I don’t think that’s possible for anyone who isn’t intimately familiar with intelligence gathering and the nuts and bolts of international affairs. Someone who knows the background can piece together what’s missing when a naive individual releases material (that is, redacting names and places is not nearly enough).

30 D Johnston  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:51:35pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

What I hear from a lot of these people is something like “Well, countries shouldn’t exist anyway.” Well fellas, once you’ve worked out the logistics of a stateless planet, then I’ll be more inclined to take you seriously. You don’t destroy someone’s house and then tell the people who lived there that they should have built it better.

31 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:53:17pm

re: #30 D Johnston

What I hear from a lot of these people is something like “Well, countries shouldn’t exist anyway.” Well fellas, once you’ve worked out the logistics of a stateless planet, then I’ll be more inclined to take you seriously. You don’t destroy someone’s house and then tell the people who lived there that they should have built it better.

Who do they suppose is going to keep the lights on, their apartment Mom’s basement from being burgled and their stuff taken, etc.?

32 Kragar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:54:10pm

As this day goes on, I’m finding my supply of fucks to give running dangerously low.

33 Lidane  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:54:51pm

re: #32 Kragar

As this day goes on, I’m finding my supply of fucks to give running dangerously low.

Image: enumerate.jpg

34 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:54:53pm

My winter project is to make up some really cool PowerPoint slides and official top secret memos exposing the nefarious spying activities of the Grand Duchy of Fenwick, all of which I shall discretely leak (teasingly piecemeal, of course) to the Twitterverse….

35 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:55:13pm

re: #11 Kragar

Glenn just wants to start shit.

And most of the news media wants to help him do it.

36 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:55:51pm
37 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:56:04pm

re: #30 D Johnston

What I hear from a lot of these people is something like “Well, countries shouldn’t exist anyway.” Well fellas, once you’ve worked out the logistics of a stateless planet, then I’ll be more inclined to take you seriously. You don’t destroy someone’s house and then tell the people who lived there that they should have built it better.

HURR HURR FREE MARKET!!!111!!!! PRIVATE INDUSTRY!!!11!!!! HURR HURR WE GOTS ARE GUNZ!!!!11!!!!!1!!!

38 Kragar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:56:10pm

Train wrecks are slowing down to stop and stare at our office today.

39 D Johnston  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:57:12pm

re: #20 dog philosopher

it’s typical of wingnut arguments that all individual points exist in isolation and don’t necessarily agree with one another

Someone pointed out that a great example is the natalist conservative/libertarian. People who complain at length about how the Left is trying to force collectivism into personal affairs, but when it comes to having children - one of the most personal life decisions anyone ever makes - suddenly we all have to procreate for the good of the country. How is that not a collectivist solution?

40 darthstar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:57:34pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

Greenwald’s a dick. Most people don’t like people who act like dicks.

41 erik_t  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:58:42pm

re: #36 Charles Johnson

@ggreenbeck By the way, David Cameron’s reach and authority is *very limited, so good luck trying to stop the journalism

The pomposity is excellent, and it gives me the giggles. Every time I see Greenbeck use the word “journalism”, I’m going to replace it with “diarrhea”. Because he has the worldliness of a twelve-year-old and thus toilet humor is funny.

@ggreenbeck By the way, David Cameron’s reach and authority is *very limited, so good luck trying to stop the diarrhea

Much better.

42 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:58:53pm

re: #39 D Johnston

Someone pointed out that a great example is the natalist conservative/libertarian. People who complain at length about how >the Left is trying to force collectivism into personal affairs, but when it comes to having children - one of the most personal life decisions anyone ever makes - suddenly we all have to procreate for the good of the country. How is that not a collectivist solution?

I have only ever seen right-wing evangelist nutjobs like Bryan Fischer, or white supremacist racists say that shit. Who else says it?

43 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:00:09pm
44 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:00:25pm

Argh, double-word typo.

45 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:00:41pm

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Catapult the cow on GG!

46 darthstar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:01:15pm

I heard a bit of this on the radio this morning. Get ready for Lindsey Graham and the Benghazi Boogie.

47 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:01:42pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Argh, double-word typo.

Twitter needs a Preview window. And/or the ability to edit.

48 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:02:11pm

re: #45 Backwoods_Sleuth

Catapult the cow on GG!

“Fetchez la vache!”

“Quoi?”

“The cow.”

“Oh! La vache!”

49 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:02:36pm
50 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:03:19pm

Professor Chaos: The Future of Journalism.

51 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:03:24pm

re: #46 darthstar

I heard a bit of this on the radio this morning. Get ready for Lindsey Graham and the Benghazi Boogie.

Unfortunately this won’t lead to a solid review of Senate rules regarding filibuster and blocking appointments. It’s an obvious piece of government dysfunction.

52 D Johnston  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:04:28pm

re: #42 Vicious Babushka

In context, it was regarding Helen Smith, a.k.a. Dr. Mrs. Ole Perfesser. She isn’t an overt Lou Dobbs-style natalist, but it’s a belief that’s inseparable from her “Young people aren’t getting married because porn” schtick. And of course, she’s delved into full-blown Objectivism at times.

53 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:05:13pm

re: #46 darthstar

I heard a bit of this on the radio this morning. Get ready for Lindsey Graham and the Benghazi Boogie.

[Embedded content]

Benghazi II CXXXII, Electric Boogaloo!

54 Ian G.  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:05:26pm

Has “South Park” lampooned Greenwald yet? He’s just begging for it.

55 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:06:09pm

re: #54 Ian G.

Has “South Park” lampooned Greenwald yet? He’s just begging for it.

It has. GG was excitedly tweeting about it before.
Deafening silence after…

56 Cheechako  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:06:35pm

Back in the mid ‘60’s the Army sent me to school to become an Intelligence Analyst (96 Bravo). On the very first day, in the very first class, we were told that the United States “collects information” on every country in the world.

This is done for one very simple reason: Today’s friend might be tomorrow’s foe”,

57 Kragar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:06:54pm

Your GOP campaign slogan “A functional government IS too much to ask for.”

58 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:08:42pm

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Then we need to sic a Killer Rabbit on him.

59 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:08:59pm

re: #54 Ian G.

Has “South Park” lampooned Greenwald yet? He’s just begging for it.

Cartman went to work at the NSA after creating a social media app, “Shitter” that sends his thoughts directly from his brain to The Internet.

60 bubba zanetti  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:09:26pm

re: #52 D Johnston

In context, it was regarding Helen Smith, a.k.a. Dr. Mrs. Ole Perfesser. She isn’t an overt Lou Dobbs-style natalist, but it’s a belief that’s inseparable from her “Young people aren’t getting married because porn” schtick. And of course, she’s delved into full-blown Objectivism at times.

If you don’t read it, this is covered nicely over at AlicuBlog, and the commenters unleash some of the best snark on the internet.

61 Ian G.  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:09:35pm

re: #56 Cheechako

This is done for one very simple reason: Today’s friend might be tomorrow’s foe”,

Surely you jest. We’ve always been BFF with the British, right?

/////////////////

62 GlutenFreeJesus  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:09:55pm

Good news from Texas. Feds ruled that anti-women’s-choice bill as unconstitutional.

63 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:12:01pm

re: #12 Mike Lamb

Honestly, is there more than fringe support for this idea that privacy issues extend to other countries/non-citizens? I can’t imagine there is.

In an ideal, one-world sense, yes. But to anyone who lives on the surface of the planet and not at some undefined altitude above it, no.

64 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:13:11pm

re: #56 Cheechako

Back in the mid ‘60’s the Army sent me to school to become an Intelligence Analyst (96 Bravo). On the very first day, in the very first class, we were told that the United States “collects information” on every country in the world.

This is done for one very simple reason: Today’s friend might be tomorrow’s foe”,

I did the 96B school at Ft Huachuca in 1991. The same thing was true then.

Fun school. Even better was going as a corporal rather that a spec-4. Get to go to the NCO club (much nicer & better food than the EM club) but not have any real responsibilities there because everything was set up for full buck Sgts & up. Didn’t even get CQ duty :D

65 Lago  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:13:21pm

I don’t work for NSA, but I do work for the Intelligence Community. When the Snowden thing first came out I rolled my eyes at the suggestion that he had done grave damage. The stuff he got to wasn’t that sensitive. But I see now that he is doing grave damage because he is destroying the implicit understandings between countries.

Look, everybody spies on everybody else. And this isn’t necessarily bad, because if allows allies to trust one another because they can assess that what is being said in private agrees with what is said in public. This is how you know who your friends really are. Everybody knows this, and they all just agree to not bring it up in polite company.

Until now.

66 Lidane  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:14:32pm

re: #54 Ian G.

Has “South Park” lampooned Greenwald yet? He’s just begging for it.

Yep. They started their new season with it. You can see the episode here:

southparkstudios.com

67 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:14:50pm

So are the lizard people spying on us too?

68 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:15:22pm

re: #56 Cheechako

Back in the mid ‘60’s the Army sent me to school to become an Intelligence Analyst (96 Bravo). On the very first day, in the very first class, we were told that the United States “collects information” on every country in the world.

This is done for one very simple reason: Today’s friend might be tomorrow’s foe”,

If you had decided to go the route of another famous analyst, CPL PVT Inmate Manning, you would have had to smuggle miles of reel-to-reel tape. Ain’t progress grand!!

69 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:15:47pm

re: #67 Amory Blaine

So are the lizard people spying on us too?

Well, the Visitors claim that it’s not spying, just them learning about our culture.

70 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:16:02pm

re: #67 Amory Blaine

So are the lizard people spying on us too?

Shhhh! Opsec.

71 darthstar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:16:58pm
72 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:17:00pm

re: #56 Cheechako

Back in the mid ‘60’s the Army sent me to school to become an Intelligence Analyst (96 Bravo). On the very first day, in the very first class, we were told that the United States “collects information” on every country in the world.

This is done for one very simple reason: Today’s friend might be tomorrow’s foe”,

The post-Cold War generation takes it as a given that the countries who are now our allies have always been our allies.

73 Cheechako  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:17:42pm

re: #64 William Barnett-Lewis

I did the 96B school at Ft Huachuca in 1991. The same thing was true then.

I took the class at Ft. Holabird in Baltimore. Even then, Ft Holabird was known as the “Country Club of the Army”. Many good times and memories.

74 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:17:57pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

Well, the Visitors claim that it’s not spying, just them learning about our culture.

A French anthropologist in 1960s Indochine Viet Nam discovered that his more interesting subject matter tended to get carpet-bombed.

75 GlutenFreeJesus  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:18:00pm

re: #62 GlutenFreeJesus

Good news from Texas. Feds ruled that anti-women’s-choice bill as unconstitutional.

Dick Perry has teh sad. No doubt he will repeal. Hope the judge laughs in his face.

76 erik_t  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:21:18pm

re: #72 Targetpractice

The post-Cold War generation takes it as a given that the countries who are now our allies have always been our allies.

I don’t actually agree with that. I think you are seeing a lot of young folks hop on the ZOMGNSA crazytrain because that’s correlated strongly with being in tech and IT, and that crowd is very visible because of the way they are interconnected. I don’t see that attitude widespread among the young people with whom I deal in the physical world.

77 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:22:12pm

re: #67 Amory Blaine

So are the lizard people spying on us too?

“LGF Master Spy”…

78 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:22:38pm

CIA Factbook: Liechtenstein

cia.gov

79 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:22:40pm

re: #76 erik_t

I don’t actually agree with that. I think you are seeing a lot of young folks hop on the ZOMGNSA crazytrain because that’s correlated strongly with being in tech and IT, and that crowd is very visible because of the way they are interconnected. I don’t see that attitude widespread among the young people with whom I deal in the physical world.

I have been in tech and IT for 25 years and I’m not seeing that crazytrain.

80 Kragar  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:24:48pm

re: #79 Vicious Babushka

I have been in tech and IT for 25 years and I’m not seeing that crazytrain.

Real IT people know the dudebros are full of shit.

81 Cheechako  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:24:57pm

re: #68 Decatur Deb

If you had decided to go the route of another famous analyst, CPL PVT Inmate Manning, you would have had to smuggle miles of reel-to-reel tape. Ain’t progress grand!!

LOL

The only thing worth smuggling out was the thousands of file folders on the KKK that were stored in a big warehouse on the Post. I’ve always wondered why the Army had such an extensive collection of information on the KKK.

I did take a peek at some of the folders. I got the impression that over half of the KKK members were informants for one Agency or another.

82 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:25:08pm

Does “Trust but verify” mean nothing to these dudebros?

83 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:25:57pm

Our allies never spy on us. Never happens.

///

85 Backwoods_Sleuth  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:27:59pm
86 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:31:43pm

The destruction of government secrecy is the Holy Grail of libertarianism. It would be a death blow to governmental power and a mighty step toward the real objective of the libertarian movement: A kind of modern feudalism; hereditary privilege as the primary determinant in human affairs, with unfettered corporate power as its primary instrument.

87 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:32:43pm

re: #11 Kragar

Actually, he’s a secret Obot mole using his vast collection of secret NSA documents that everyone with half a brain already knew about to keep the ACA rollout off the front pages of the ORM (Out Rage Media.)

Great work GG!

88 dog philosopher  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:34:36pm

re: #72 Targetpractice

The post-Cold War generation takes it as a given that the countries who are now our allies have always been our allies.

we have always been at war with eastasia

89 Lidane  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:35:59pm

re: #86 Shiplord Kirel

The destruction of government secrecy is the Holy Grail of libertarianism. It would be a death blow to governmental power and a mighty step toward the real objective of the libertarian movement: A kind of modern feudalism; hereditary privilege as the primary determinant in human affairs, with unfettered corporate power as its primary instrument.

Libertarians are modern day wannabe robber barons. They refuse to admit, however, that if their ideal world came to pass, they’d all be expendable and working in the fields for their actual feudal overlords.

90 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:37:37pm

All I can think of to say is that Greenwald is so besotted with the sound of his own voice and what he judges to be important to the rest of the world that he just can’t STFU.

91 GeneJockey  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:38:26pm

re: #89 Lidane

Libertarians are modern day wannabe robber barons. They refuse to admit, however, that if their ideal world came to pass, they’d all be expendable and working in the fields for their actual feudal overlords.

Everyone who reads ‘Atlas Shrugs’ and doesn’t immediately say, “What a piece of shit!” imagines himself a Producer, no matter how parasitical their choice of career.

92 Lidane  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:46:09pm

re: #91 GeneJockey

Everyone who reads ‘Atlas Shrugs’ and doesn’t immediately say, “What a piece of shit!” imagines himself a Producer, no matter how parasitical their choice of career.

Youtube Video

93 ObserverArt  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:49:09pm

Well, it appears writing from researched facts just isn’t good enough anymore. So modern journalism needs to scare and/or be hyperbolic to make money, Key being making money as opposed just relaying facts. Who knew the National Enquirer would become the standard. When younger, you were called a nutcase for even glancing at the stories of alien abductions and strange births and other almost circus sideshow stories.

In regards to people thinking there should be no spying, I’m getting the feeling they have lived so thoroughly protected lives they have some overly-idealistic view of the world and how it works they can’t even comprehend a spy, or international meddling and influence, real wars (not the modern video game wars we see on TV) has ever, still does and will continue to occur.

By the way, what the hell does Glenn Beck know about journalism?

94 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:50:27pm

re: #89 Lidane

Libertarians are modern day wannabe robber barons. They refuse to admit, however, that if their ideal world came to pass, they’d all be expendable and working in the fields for their actual feudal overlords.

Not understanding that the yeoman farmer thing is *very* dependent on markets, trade, and interaction unless one wants to simply scrabble for subsistence living. And once you’re involved in trade and interaction you really quickly need to start adding things like police and courts in order to keep things in check. Otherwise you then get the fun of dealing with banditry and *real* robber barons.

95 ObserverArt  Mon, Oct 28, 2013 1:54:12pm

re: #31 GeneJockey

Who do they suppose is going to keep the lights on, their apartment Mom’s basement from being burgled and their stuff taken, etc.?

One big co-op man!

/


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