1 Kragar  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:38:37pm

Youtube Video

2 blueraven  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:42:27pm

Also it was broadcast at the very end of the program. Probably many viewers missed it. Sad, 60 Minutes.

3 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:52:46pm

No mention of new safeguards or vetting.

4 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:52:55pm

Slander a GOP president = fired

Slander a Dem president = lame non-apology apology

There is no liberal media.

5 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:59:00pm

re: #4 moderatelyradicalliberal

Slander a GOP president = fired

Slander a Dem president = lame non-apology apology

There is no liberal media.

That may also represent different senior leadership at CBS, or the fact that the 2013 dishonesty did not happen in an election year, whereas the 2004 dishonesty did and was to some extent driven by a desire to see George W. Bush defeated.

6 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:00:46pm

There’s a rumor online that her old man was bootlegging out of the Baghdad airport.

7 BongCrodny  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:04:32pm

I changed the channel after “We were misled.”

If I’m going to watch fantasy, “Once Upon A Time” offers a much easier suspension of disbelief.

8 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:13:14pm

re: #7 BongCrodny

I changed the channel after “We were misled.”

If I’m going to watch fantasy, “Once Upon A Time” offers a much easier suspension of disbelief.

Agreed, when the line “we were misled” comes up, it’s missing a word, as in “we were willfully misled.” As Josh Marshall over at TPM points out, Davies told them he lied to his employers but told the “truth” to the FBI. It was not impossible for them to call up the FBI, to get in touch with people they know there, and get verification that this guy had told the same story to the FBI that he was telling in his book. The fact that they didn’t, they took him at his word, shows they were wanting to believe what he was selling them.

To think, all Rather had to do was come on a week after the controversy began and say “We were misled” and he might have kept his job.

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:14:27pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

That may also represent different senior leadership at CBS, or the fact that the 2013 dishonesty did not happen in an election year, whereas the 2004 dishonesty did and was to some extent driven by a desire to see George W. Bush defeated.

It also took Rather and Mapes about 6 months to be fired after airing the TANG memo report. Although 60 minutes retracted the story Rather and Mapes stuck to it and fought their firing internally. The producers on the Benghazi report might handle things better.

10 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:17:55pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

You got a problem with what I said, ‘timothybwatson’, then post and say what your problem is. Stealth dinging is the route of a coward.

11 Timothy Watson  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:19:33pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

How about, bite me?

12 Timothy Watson  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:30:19pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Oh, and it’s also funny that you call it “stealth dinging” when my name is on the -/+ popup.

13 piratedan  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:34:39pm

Youtube Video

14 Kragar  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:37:13pm

Image: jon-stewart-popcorn11.gif

15 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:37:38pm

re: #12 Timothy Watson

Oh, and it’s also funny that you call it “stealth dinging” when my name is on the -/+ popup.

It was a LGF member who is no longer posting here with the nic of ‘Salamantis’ who coined the term ‘stealth dinger’. He used it to mean someone who downed other but did not post himself.

Now, would you care to explain your objection to what I posted?

16 Balfour Rage  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:44:05pm

A five-minute google search could have saved CBS this sophomoric embarrassment, but I guess getting it first is much more important than getting it right.

17 Timothy Watson  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:45:04pm

re: #15 Dark_Falcon

That Lara Logan et al. ran a bullshit story, a story they knew was suspect, for the sole purpose of stirring up wingnut rage and selling books, a book published by a sister company, and someone thinks they shouldn’t be fired?

18 Gus  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:46:51pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

It also took Rather and Mapes about 6 months to be fired after airing the TANG memo report. Although 60 minutes retracted the story Rather and Mapes stuck to it and fought their firing internally. The producers on the Benghazi report might handle things better.

Point I just made on Twitter which will probably go unnoticed. Chronology:

• Killian documents - September 8, 2004
• Retraction - September 20, 2004
• Rather’s Last Broadcast - March 9, 2005
• McManus’s Announcement of Rather’s Departure: June 20, 2006

That would be close to 2 years before Rather departing CBS. Lara Logan’s report is only weeks old. Of course, this is the new Twitter age. Note, 60Minutes did not trend this evening. I had to unfollow several people because I’m in no mood for this kind of intensity in my life right now.

19 piratedan  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:47:26pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

That may also represent different senior leadership at CBS, or the fact that the 2013 dishonesty did not happen in an election year, whereas the 2004 dishonesty did and was to some extent driven by a desire to see George W. Bush defeated.

so you’re saying that in 2004, CBS was working concertedly to deny Bush the Presidency, post his already serving one term?

20 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:50:08pm

re: #16 Balfour Rage

A five-minute google search could have saved CBS this sophomoric embarrassment, but I guess getting it first is much more important than getting it right.

Well they were far from first when it comes to feeding this 14 month old attempt by the GOP to politicize a tragedy. I just don’t get what they thought they would gain. Did they really imagine they could get the Fox News audience to switch over for an hour per week? On what planet is gaining esteem among idiots worth threatening credibility?

21 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:55:06pm

re: #17 Timothy Watson

That Lara Logan et al. ran a bullshit story, a story they knew was suspect, for the sole purpose of stirring up wingnut rage and selling books, a book published by a sister company, and someone thinks they shouldn’t be fired?

That was not what I was saying. I was citing possible reasons why action had not been proven, as an reply to moderatelyradicalliberal’s post #4. i was not saying that Lara Logan should not be fired. Indeed, I think she should be.

22 Gus  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:56:16pm

Is tomorrow a holiday?

23 blueraven  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:56:37pm

Personally, I am not looking or asking for someone to get fired at the moment. I would like to hear an explanation of how this guy was vetted. They said they had worked this story for a year. How could this happen?
They have access to the best available sources. How did they get this so wrong?

24 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:57:00pm

re: #19 piratedan

so you’re saying that in 2004, CBS was working concertedly to deny Bush the Presidency, post his already serving one term?

No, i was saying different leadership might take different actions regarding dishonest reporting and that such reporting about a president during a presidential election year might be regarded as a greater degree of fault.

25 Mattand  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:57:21pm

re: #17 Timothy Watson

That Lara Logan et al. ran a bullshit story, a story they knew was suspect, for the sole purpose of stirring up wingnut rage and selling books, a book published by a sister company, and someone thinks they shouldn’t be fired?

Yeah, that’s basically the problem in a nutshell. 60 Minutes, supposedly one of the most respected/feared journalism programs in TV history, couldn’t follow up this guy’s story with the FBI?

This thing has corporate Magic Balance Fairy written all over it.

Sometimes I see stuff like this and it hits me how much of a negative impact Fox News’ success has had on journalism in general. The other networks (CNN in particular) see how much ad revenue and ratings News Corp has scored pandering to conservatives, and want in on the action.

The one thing the other networks constantly fuck up on is the fact that Fox will not hesitate to distort or out-and-out lie about a story to keep their audience happy.

To play Fox’s game, you’ve got to go all in. You’ve got to remake yourself as a propaganda machine to pull of what Fox has.

26 Kragar  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:59:20pm

re: #22 Gus

Is tomorrow a holiday?

Veteran’s Day

27 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:03:08pm

re: #25 Mattand

Yeah, that’s basically the problem in a nutshell. 60 Minutes, supposedly one of the most respected/feared journalism programs in TV history, couldn’t follow up this guy’s story with the FBI?

This thing has corporate Magic Balance Fairy written all over it.

Sometimes I see stuff like this and it hits me how much of a negative impact Fox News’ success has had on journalism in general. The other networks (CNN in particular) see how much ad revenue and ratings News Corp has scored pandering to conservatives, and want in on the action.

The one thing the other networks constantly fuck up on is the fact that Fox will not hesitate to distort or out-and-out lie about a story to keep their audience happy.

To play Fox’s game, you’ve got to go all in. You’ve got to remake yourself as a propaganda machine to pull of what Fox has.

That would not end well: Becoming a monster to slay a monster.

28 Gus  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:04:49pm

re: #26 Kragar

Veteran’s Day

Right. Good. Day off for the zoo animals.

29 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:05:53pm

re: #18 Gus

Point I just made on Twitter which will probably go unnoticed. Chronology:

• Killian documents - September 8, 2004
• Retraction - September 20, 2004
• Rather’s Last Broadcast - March 9, 2005
• McManus’s Announcement of Rather’s Departure: June 20, 2006

That would be close to 2 years before Rather departing CBS. Lara Logan’s report is only weeks old. Of course, this is the new Twitter age. Note, 60Minutes did not trend this evening. I had to unfollow several people because I’m in no mood for this kind of intensity in my life right now.

Wow, I don’t remember it being that long.

30 piratedan  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:07:20pm

re: #24 Dark_Falcon

No, i was saying different leadership might take different actions regarding dishonest reporting and that such reporting about a president during a presidential election year might be regarded as a greater degree of fault.

yeah… I could almost buy that except you tossed this in…

was to some extent driven by a desire to see George W. Bush defeated.

That’s making a presumption for an entire network, which if true, should imply that they would have backed Rather instead of disciplining and eventually firing him.

31 piratedan  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:09:04pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Wow, I don’t remember it being that long.

isn’t that roughly the same… about two weeks for a retraction/apology from the network in each case?

32 Gus  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:10:51pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Wow, I don’t remember it being that long.

Yeah, I checked. I remember wondering “why are we still seeing Dan Rather on CBS” from time to time. He was still around in some capacity for almost 2 years.

33 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:11:26pm

re: #30 piratedan

yeah… I could almost buy that except you tossed this in…

That’s making a presumption for an entire network, which if true, should imply that they would have backed Rather instead of disciplining and eventually firing him.

To clarify: I was saying that the dishonest reporting “was to some extent driven by a desire to see George W. Bush defeated.” I was not trying to imply the entire network was in on it, nor was there an advance desire to defraud. But in accepting bogus documents without question, Mapes and Rather set themselves up for a fall, and their refusal to admit the truth when the documents were exposed was the crucial act of dishonesty.

34 piratedan  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:15:23pm

re: #32 Gus

Yeah, I checked. I remember wondering “why are we still seeing Dan Rather on CBS” from time to time. He was still around in some capacity for almost 2 years.

if every news reporter was fired post a bad/misleading/untruthful/insufficiently researched piece… about all we would have left is the Weather Channel on cable… ////

I would have to think that Rather’s 30+ year history with the network may have had something to do with it and perhaps CBS’ own HR department and potential lawsuits had a part to play as well.

35 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:15:47pm

re: #32 Gus

Yeah, I checked. I remember wondering “why are we still seeing Dan Rather on CBS” from time to time. He was still around in some capacity for almost 2 years.

I saw him bitching this weekend about CBS not inviting him back for their anniversary coverage of the Kennedy assassination. They want nothing to do with him anymore. He could have recovered just fine but he was a real dick about it, even tried to sue the network.

36 Gus  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:17:01pm

Late here. Good night.

37 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:18:25pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I saw him bitching this weekend about CBS not inviting him back for their anniversary coverage of the Kennedy assassination. They want nothing to do with him anymore. He could have recovered just fine but he was a real dick about it, even tried to sue the network.

Dan Rather has a big ego, and being proven wrong in such a public manner badly bruised said ego, resulting in intense butthurt that he is still suffering from today.

38 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:30:27pm

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

To clarify: I was saying that the dishonest reporting “was to some extent driven by a desire to see George W. Bush defeated.”

I think it had more to do with the underlying story about Bush unilaterally walking away from his FANG duties being true. Bias confirmation doesn’t have to be ideological, second sources are often not examined in proper detail simply because the underlying broad strokes have already been vetted and established as fact.. Rather and Co. accepted the Killian documents as being true without proper due diligence simply because they confirmed something that was already known. Yes, it was also during an election season, and ratings were almost undeniably a concern, but you’re seeing partisan bias because you want to, not because it’s actually fits well or has been even remotely close to proven.

I’m guessing ratings were the primary motivator this time around too. When in doubt follow the money.

39 darthstar  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 10:31:30pm
40 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Nov 10, 2013 11:57:23pm

You new hatchlings (say, less than 5 years) are aware, I trust, that this very site played a huge role in exposing the Rather TANG docs?

41 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 1:11:42am

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

You new hatchlings (say, less than 5 years) are aware, I trust, that this very site played a huge role in exposing the Rather TANG docs?

I recall joining just as the shit hit the TANG…

42 ObserverArt  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 2:31:02am

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That would not end well: Becoming a monster to slay a monster.

Being a monster to slay a monster is not what happens in true journalism. However, as many here know, there is no true journalism in much big media anymore, it is entertainment. And, entertainment is all about business and ratings.

Being a monster to slay a monster is a big part of business. So, not journalism…it’s business.

I know it is hard to think of previous big news outlets no longer being truthful as real factual outlets for news, but it is here. And it should be pointed out as a reminder 60 Minutes has had its problems before. Just ask some of the auto manufacturers.

43 freetoken  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 2:52:52am

MP3 Audio

44 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:55:33am

What I don’t get is—why doesn’t someone want to tell the truth about Laura Logan and the state of journalism these days?

Journalism is not about your personal opinions and ideology and having someone back them up.

If she and her producer couldn’t, after an entire year, know that Davies was lying, what kind of investigation did they really do?

Are some lies more acceptable than others?

45 geoffm33  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:13:50am

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

You new hatchlings (say, less than 5 years) are aware, I trust, that this very site played a huge role in exposing the Rather TANG docs?

I do recall. I was around in those days as a lurker (I think gm33 was my handle). Was gone from LGF for a long time returning this year. My politics changed and I like what I came back to :)

46 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:18:00am

The guy who doesn’t know how to use Teh Googles is Derping again:

THERE ARE NO PICTURES OF GEORGE W. BUSH LIKE THIS ONE. NONE!!

47 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:18:19am

Mikey blocked me so I can’t reply to his Derp.

48 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:26:06am

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

You new hatchlings (say, less than 5 years) are aware, I trust, that this very site played a huge role in exposing the Rather TANG docs?

As I’ve stated before, it was, ironically, Mary Mapes book on the incident “Truth and Duty” (which I picked up for a buck at Dollar Tree no less) that first led me to LGF.

49 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:30:40am

I think it’s also important to acknowledge the political climate at the time the Killian memos story came out.

It was just over a year into the Iraq war, which from the start was unpopular with a large segment of the American people. Democrats had hoped that the unpopularity of the war, combined with dislike for Bush himself would allow them to easily re-take the White House in 2004.

But some funny things happened on the way to the election:

- The Democrats nominated John Kerry, who just didn’t connect with voters and wasn’t that great of a nominee.

- The Killian memos and scandal that followed actually helped Bush because it was more or less successfully played off as an unfair attack against him and his Presidency by the so-called “Liberal media”

- Kerry got “Swift boated” by a powerful right wing group, further damaging his reputation and making it that much easier for Bush to retain the White House.

Bottom line for me is I think Democrats were over confident going into that election. They thought Bush was more vulnerable than he actually was.

50 geoffm33  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:31:08am

My latest politi-fatuation has been education reform. Currently reading Reign of Error by Diane Ravitch and it is excellent. Anyway, just saw this from her twitter account:

Catholic Scholars Blast Common Core

132 Catholic scholars have sent a letter to every bishop in the nation asking them to not adopt Common Core in Catholic Schools or to withdraw from it where it has been adopted.

51 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:32:14am

re: #50 geoffm33

My latest politi-fatuation has been education reform. Currently reading >Reign of Error by Diane Ravitch and it is excellent. Anyway, just saw this from her twitter account:

Catholic Scholars Blast Common Core

132 Catholic scholars have sent a letter to every bishop in the nation asking them to not adopt Common Core in Catholic Schools or to withdraw from it where it has been adopted.

Education reform, health care reform and immigration reform are my three biggest interests.

52 A Mom Anon  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:42:43am

re: #50 geoffm33

Now that my kid is out of high school, I’ve been out of the public education loop so I’ve missed the “controversy” over Common Core. What the hell is the problem? I would think it makes big sense to have an educational standard on a national level so that kids going into college all have about the same level of education going in. Isn’t that what Common Core does?

53 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:43:13am

Maybe part of the reason we can’t trust the news these days is that too many “journalists” are not reporters, or didn’t start out that way. Many have created their own definition of the traditional role of reporter which had a more objective goal—reporting the who, what, why, where and when of a story—and nothing more, not injecting bias, opinion, or activism into the writing which appears to be happening more and more these days in all media. Opinions no longer are confined to the editorial page as they used to be, and “investigative journalism” is a far cry from exposing actual corruption and wrong-doing. Today it is more likely to be a personal attack, whether proved or not, whether deserved or not, whether accurate or not, and part and parcel of the “journalist’s” agenda, no matter what medium they are working in. In other words, “yellow journalism” has crept into the mainstream, whether directly or by insinuation.

Here’s the dictionary definition of journalist:

jour*nal*ism
noun ˈjər-nə-ˌli-zəm

: the activity or job of collecting, writing, and editing news stories for newspapers, magazines, television, or radio

merriam-webster.com

The same for reporter:

re*port*er
noun ri-ˈpȯr-tər

: a person who writes news stories for a newspaper, magazine, etc., or who tells people the news on radio or television

merriam-webster.com

merriam-webster.com

So, while a reporter does also gather news, that is eliminated in a basic definition (while included in an expanded definition). The definitions are basically pretty much the same.

I suppose “journalist” sounds so much posher than mere “reporter”?

Because the ones who would be reporters are changing the rules? Because they all wish to become rich or famous with no restrictions or boundaries and free to report what they wish with very little, if any, oversight and little restraint from editors (if they even have one?).

54 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:46:08am

re: #49 Eclectic Cyborg

I think it’s also important to acknowledge the political climate at the time the Killian memos story came out.

It was just over a year into the Iraq war, which from the start was unpopular with a large segment of the American people. Democrats had hoped that the unpopularity of the war, combined with dislike for Bush himself would allow them to easily re-take the White House in 2004.

But some funny things happened on the way to the election:

- The Democrats nominated John Kerry, who just didn’t connect with voters and wasn’t that great of a nominee.

- The Killian memos and scandal that followed actually helped Bush because it was more or less successfully played off as an unfair attack against him and his Presidency by the so-called “Liberal media”

- Kerry got “Swift boated” by a powerful right wing group, further damaging his reputation and making it that much easier for Bush to retain the White House.

Bottom line for me is I think Democrats were over confident going into that election. They thought Bush was more vulnerable than he actually was.

I always thought the Killian story was a “black op” by the Republicans to discredit the entire TANG story.

55 A Mom Anon  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:50:32am

re: #53 Justanotherhuman
News also used to be the “fee” networks paid to use the public airwaves. News was never meant to be a profit center, when the rules changed to allow the networks to make it into a money making enterprise is when things went into the toilet.

Example: Tonight in Atlanta, WSB-TV “news” is having a special on Obamacare. WSB radio is also involved, a right wing radio station that used to be home to Neal Boortz (who was replaced by Herman Cain), and runs the shows of the usual suspects (Hannnity, Ingraham, Limbaugh, etc). Along with Politifact via the Atlanta Journal/Constitution newspaper. Yeah, I’m sure THAT will be unbiased.

56 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:52:18am

re: #50 geoffm33

My latest politi-fatuation has been education reform. Currently reading >Reign of Error by Diane Ravitch and it is excellent. Anyway, just saw this from her twitter account:

Catholic Scholars Blast Common Core

132 Catholic scholars have sent a letter to every bishop in the nation asking them to not adopt Common Core in Catholic Schools or to withdraw from it where it has been adopted.

Well, I think this explains it: “We believe that implementing Common Core would be a grave disservice to Catholic education in America.” (my emphasis)

The fundie/charter contingent has pretty much the same argument; it’s a religious one.

57 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:52:58am

re: #52 A Mom Anon

Now that my kid is out of high school, I’ve been out of the public education loop so I’ve missed the “controversy” over Common Core. What the hell is the problem? I would think it makes big sense to have an educational standard on a national level so that kids going into college all have about the same level of education going in. Isn’t that what Common Core does?

Unless I’m mistaken the controversy over Common Core is that it is (supposedly) Liberal biased because you know, it dares to teach evolution as scientific fact and that homosexuality isn’t a horrible abomination, among other things.

58 geoffm33  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:54:30am

re: #52 A Mom Anon

Now that my kid is out of high school, I’ve been out of the public education loop so I’ve missed the “controversy” over Common Core. What the hell is the problem? I would think it makes big sense to have an educational standard on a national level so that kids going into college all have about the same level of education going in. Isn’t that what Common Core does?

Because all of these reforms are being done to solve problems that either don’t exist, or cannot be fixed adequately with educational plans. National assessments, International test score, graduation rates are all improving year over year. And showed their most significant gains prior to No Child Left Behind.

The metrics I list above put the US as world leaders when you compare them using public schools in affluent neighborhoods. The areas where the gains have not been as pronounced (still improving) are in the poorest school districts. The national education fight is misguided, it should be against poverty.

EDIT: Rephrased last paragraph for clarity.

59 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:57:54am

re: #50 geoffm33

In answer to her book, I reply with this:

The Closing of Diane Ravitch’s Mind by Sol Stern

60 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:02:32am

re: #56 Justanotherhuman

Well, I think this explains it: “We believe that implementing Common Core would be a grave disservice to Catholic education in America.” (my emphasis)

The fundie/charter contingent has pretty much the same argument; it’s a religious one.

Read the letter, what is said within it is quite different:

Much of today’s vigorous debate focuses upon particular standards in English and math. Supporters say that Common Core will “raise academic standards.” But we find persuasive the critiques of educational experts (such as James Milgram, professor emeritus of mathematics at Stanford University, and Sandra Stotsky, professor emerita of education at the University of Arkansas) who have studied Common Core, and who judge it to be a step backwards. We endorse their judgment that this “reform” is really a radical shift in emphasis, goals, and expectations for K-12 education, with the result that Common Core-educated children will not be prepared to do authentic college work. Even supporters of Common Core admit that it is geared to prepare children only for community-college-level studies.

No doubt many of America’s Catholic children will study in community colleges. Some will not attend college at all. This is not by itself lamentable; it all depends upon the personal vocations of those children, and what they need to learn and do in order to carry out the unique set of good works entrusted to them by Jesus. But none of that means that our Catholic grade schools and high schools should give up on maximizing the intellectual potential of every student. And every student deserves to be prepared for a life of the imagination, of the spirit, and of a deep appreciation for beauty, goodness, truth, and faith.

The judgments of Stotsky and Milgram (among many others) are supported by a host of particulars. These particulars include when algebra is to be taught, whether advanced mathematics coursework should be taught in high school, the misalignment of writing and reading standards, and whether cursive writing is to be taught.

61 geoffm33  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:07:45am

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

In answer to her book, I reply with this:

The Closing of Diane Ravitch’s Mind by Sol Stern

The same Sol Stern?

The Bomber as School Reformer:
The press—and debate moderators—shouldn’t let Bill Ayers and Barack Obama off the hook.

62 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:07:46am

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but that quote I used is contained within the letter, second paragraph.

63 ObserverArt  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:20:22am

re: #53 Justanotherhuman

Maybe part of the reason we can’t trust the news these days is that too many “journalists” are not reporters, or didn’t start out that way. Many have created their own definition of the traditional role of reporter which had a more objective goal—reporting the who, what, why, where and when of a story—and nothing more, not injecting bias, opinion, or activism into the writing which appears to be happening more and more these days in all media. Opinions no longer are confined to the editorial page as they used to be, and “investigative journalism” is a far cry from exposing actual corruption and wrong-doing. Today it is more likely to be a personal attack, whether proved or not, whether deserved or not, whether accurate or not, and part and parcel of the “journalist’s” agenda, no matter what medium they are working in. In other words, “yellow journalism” has crept into the mainstream, whether directly or by insinuation.

~snip~

Justanotherhuman,

The bit I highlighted in bold above is open for a good discussion. I myself wouldn’t go so far as to say it is personal as once again business. The news stories are little products and like all marketing, the seller wants his products to attract a market. If the market demands crazy wingnutty stories and research indicates you can sell that more than a truthful story, then I think decisions are made to go with what sells.

That is not to excuse it, it is just the fact that all major media has so much competition for viewers these days they need ratings to sell commercials at rates that keep them in business. So, they seem to go with what sells even knowing that it may not be good journalism.

I’d love to be the ‘fly on the wall’ in some of these media centers to listen to what is being said prior to and just after a ‘reporter’ goes on TV or radio to give a report. I have a feeling there could be some interesting conversations between directors, editors and reporters about how much gagging they do to report some of the crap they report.

The Today show this morning is a good example. I had it on to catch some updates on the typhoons. They announced next up would be Sarah Palin. She came on interviewed by Matt Lauer. And like always, she pratlled on with all her stupid talking points and little quips and all I could think of is; what is going through Lauer’s head as he has to interview this mess of a person like she is a respected political personality. I bet there was some good banter going on in the background and after the interview.

And I am left like I find myself often…how sad this all is. Too bad we can’t have a real interview that would nail her down on the real meat on healthcare reform in the ACA instead of allowing her to get in her Marxists socialism medicine bullshit. Obviously there was a decision made to not pin her down and let her be her. And sadly that decision in an enetertainment business decision, not a journalistic one. They wanted Sarah’s followers tuning in and not to be disappointed, probably hoping the followers will decide “hey Matt Lauer and The Today Show may not be part of the lamestream media.”

The real problem, it was as lamestream media as it can get.

64 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:22:58am

re: #52 A Mom Anon

Now that my kid is out of high school, I’ve been out of the public education loop so I’ve missed the “controversy” over Common Core. What the hell is the problem? I would think it makes big sense to have an educational standard on a national level so that kids going into college all have about the same level of education going in. Isn’t that what Common Core does?

Right now, the Common Core standards only apply to language arts and math, but there will be others for science and history/social studies. The objective is to teach the same skills and content to every student, but with additional requirements that will remove some flexibility from teachers’ lesson planning.

In language arts, students will be reading non-fiction articles and spending time discussing and analyzing them, even in the elementary grades. Language arts teachers fear this focus will limit students’ exposure to literature like short stories, novels and poetry.

In math, students will be expected to analyze and discuss possible solution methods to problems, with the intent that they will understand the process of math better. Needless to say, many math teachers are not trained to coach students to find their own solutions to problems, so there is some resistance there.

I haven’t read Ravitch’s latest book yet, but I read her blog from time to time. Her argument against Common Core is its link with the standards testing that began with No Child Left Behind, and the “one size fits all” approach to education. For my part, although I probably will never have to teach the Common Core, I am always suspicious of educational reforms that are devised by education theorists who have little to no actual teaching experience. If I were a language arts teacher, I’d definitely resent the single-minded focus on reading non-fiction. While there is certainly merit to teaching students how to pick apart factual articles, it should not be at the expense of reading fiction, which is a lot more fun.

In fact, the Common Core will not be a national curriculum, because private, charter and church schools don’t have to follow it. So, it’s yet another wedge separating different economic classes within education.

I’m still undecided whether Common Core is good or bad, but if Ravitch doesn’t like it, I tend to side with her. You can read her blogs about it. dianeravitch.net

65 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:23:10am

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

DF, Wisconsin adopted Common Core some time ago. I know my son’s education is far better for it - he is certainly learning far more _in_ school than I ever did. My education, such as it is, was done almost entirely on my own in libraries and in life. The lack of standards made the time spend in the classroom mostly a waste. In those days, parochial schools were the only place to get a decent primary education; thankfully that’s not so true anymore.

Combine this with the joke of textbooks on history and biology being foisted upon the children of Texas and elsewhere and you might begin to see why I am fully in support of minimum federal academic standards for public education.

If these Catholic educators don’t like it, they have their own parochial schools that they can weaken without them.

66 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:28:35am

re: #44 Justanotherhuman

Journalism is not about your personal opinions and ideology and having someone back them up.

Modern journalism is about producing content to fill in between advertising time and to attract enough viewers/listeners to make the advertising time more attractive to potential clients.

Still, people continue to think of news as a “product” as that we are “customers”. We are just noses to be counted so that networks can charge more for the product they sell, which is advertising time

67 darthstar  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:29:14am
68 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:29:20am

re: #64 wheat-dogghazi

Interesting. I do know from looking at my Son’s assignments and homework, (currently 6th grade) that both fiction and non-fiction are assigned in roughly equal amounts. Each student also had to produce a poetry chapbook last year and I expect similar amounts this year. There is also one class period every morning where all students school wide are required to read. Free choice as to the reading but they have to read every day. My son is most of the way through his first reading of The Lord of the Rings as a result :)

Math is more problematical but more for student than teacher reasons - “I know how to do this, why I need to do it x-gazillion times?????”

69 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:31:53am

re: #68 William Barnett-Lewis

Free choice as to the reading but they have to read every day

Have you checked to see if any of your past issues of Playboy are missing!?!?

//

70 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:33:03am

re: #65 William Barnett-Lewis

DF, Wisconsin adopted Common Core some time ago. I know my son’s education is far better for it - he is certainly learning far more _in_ school than I ever did. My education, such as it is, was done almost entirely on my own in libraries and in life. The lack of standards made the time spend in the classroom mostly a waste. In those days, parochial schools were the only place to get a decent primary education; thankfully that’s not so true anymore.

Combine this with the joke of textbooks on history and biology being foisted upon the children of Texas and elsewhere and you might begin to see why I am fully in support of minimum federal academic standards for public education.

If these Catholic educators don’t like it, they have their own parochial schools that they can weaken without them.

The bolded part is exactly why the Religious Right and conservatives are wailing about the Common Core. They fear the coming science and history standards will teach poor innocent kids that science is right and history is a lot longer than 6,000 years. There are still RWNJs now protesting set theory and New Math 50 years after those pedagogies were abandoned.

I’m surprised the Common Core is allowed in Walker’s Wisconsin-stan. But I’m glad it’s benefiting your kid.

71 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:35:34am

re: #68 William Barnett-Lewis

Interesting. I do know from looking at my Son’s assignments and homework, (currently 6th grade) that both fiction and non-fiction are assigned in roughly equal amounts. Each student also had to produce a poetry chapbook last year and I expect similar amounts this year. There is also one class period every morning where all students school wide are required to read. Free choice as to the reading but they have to read every day. My son is most of the way through his first reading of The Lord of the Rings as a result :)

Math is more problematical but more for student than teacher reasons - “I know how to do this, why I need to do it x-gazillion times?????”

Good! I know many teachers and schools are managing to blend their old curricula and Common Core requirements, so it’s not as draconian as I feared. He’s in a good school, for sure.

72 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:38:13am

Question for Californian Lizards-Would/will you vote to to elect Gov. Jerry Brown? If not, why not?

Paged

73 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:38:28am

re: #70 wheat-dogghazi

I’m surprised the Common Core is allowed in Walker’s Wisconsin-stan. But I’m glad it’s benefiting your kid.

Got in a year before that ass-hat started trying to screw things up. He’s been too busy trying to destroy the Unions so far plus the Superintendent of Public Instruction has the say on these things (and has remained in Dem hands even when Walker was winning). I look forward to the science & history standards as well.

74 Mattand  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:38:48am

re: #67 darthstar

[Embedded content]

This is why part of me is resigned to the fact there will be a President Christie in January 2017. Just about everyone is convinced this guy is a bipartisan magician who shits rainbows (when he’s not shitting on gay people or teachers.)

I’m willing to bet not one of the hosts of those shows pressed him about how he hasn’t done shit with our state economy. In all honesty, they were probably afraid of getting yelled at.

75 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:40:32am

re: #63 ObserverArt

Well, when you consider that more people listen to or read gossip about celebrities than watch or listen to real news, it’s obvious which business model makes money—anything about “people” reigns over straight news, i.e., TMZ, E, whatever those shows are called, and they’re raking in the money. Advertisers put ads where people watch, listen or read. People prefer gossip to abstract thought, too, and if you don’t think but merely consume, you become that much more a victim of this kind of BS.

It’s not really “concern” about people, it’s like a trainwreck you can’t avert your eyes from, just waiting, waiting, waiting, for them to fuck up somehow, just so you can have more to talk about—because it doesn’t matter how outrageous their PR pumping goes w/bad behavior—i.e., Miley Cyrus, for instance.

People are talking about me, and bad publicity is better than none. In the Age of the Ego, this rules because you can’t be Big Enough.

76 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:45:46am

re: #73 William Barnett-Lewis

Got in a year before that ass-hat started trying to screw things up. He’s been too busy trying to destroy the Unions so far plus the Superintendent of Public Instruction has the say on these things (and has remained in Dem hands even when Walker was winning). I look forward to the science & history standards as well.

The shit’s going to hit the fan when the science and history standards come out. The recent noise from conservative quarters will seem like insects buzzing by comparison.

77 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:52:05am

re: #50 geoffm33

My latest politi-fatuation has been education reform. Currently reading >Reign of Error by Diane Ravitch and it is excellent. Anyway, just saw this from her twitter account:

Catholic Scholars Blast Common Core

132 Catholic scholars have sent a letter to every bishop in the nation asking them to not adopt Common Core in Catholic Schools or to withdraw from it where it has been adopted.

There is one section in the letter that I know is a lie. And since it’s a critical element it led me to suspect the rest of the letter had problems with the truth as well.

The letter claims:

Common Core adopts a bottom-line, pragmatic approach to education. The heart of its philosophy is, as far as we can see, that it is a waste of resources to “over-educate” people. The basic goal of K-12 schools is to provide everyone with a modest skill set; after that, people can specialize in college - if they end up there. Truck-drivers do not need to know Huck Finn. Physicians have no use for the humanities. Only those destined to major in literature need to worry about Ulysses.

Perhaps a truck-driver needs no acquaintance with Paradise Lost to do his or her day’s work. But everyone is better off knowing Shakespeare and Euclidean geometry, and everyone is capable of it. Everyone bears the responsibility of growing in wisdom and grace and in deliberating with fellow-citizens about how we should all live together. A sound education helps each of us to do so

Let’s start with the solipsism because it’s pretty common in CC objectors. Huck Finn is indeed being removed. What never gets mentioned is that Tom Sawyer is being added. They’re right, geometry isn’t going to be required of everyone - though of course they weren’t, anyway. Instead Algebra II will be the goal. Ulysses - Homer’s Odyssey - is not being removed but is instead part of the common core. Shakespeare is required reading.

See the lies now?

I have this standard. If I know someone is lying about the things I can check, why should I trust the things I can’t? If the position is built upon lies, why should I accept and support the position?

Given this letter is typical of the common core objectors, I’m left with little reasonable choice but to believe the objectors wrong, that common core is acceptable.

I will add that the majority of objectors seem to be ramping up in anticipation. Buried in this letter, and in dozens of others I’ve read, are remarks along the lines of how if the published standards for math and literature are so flawed we must absolutely prevent the standards for science and history being presented. Fellow lizards will no doubt recall that both science and history are major issues of controversy for certain people. It only makes me more certain that Common Core is a good idea.

78 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 6:56:54am

re: #64 wheat-dogghazi

Right now, the Common Core standards only apply to language arts and math, but there will be others for science and history/social studies. The objective is to teach the same skills and content to every student, but with additional requirements that will remove some flexibility from teachers’ lesson planning.

In language arts, students will be reading non-fiction articles and spending time discussing and analyzing them, even in the elementary grades. Language arts teachers fear this focus will limit students’ exposure to literature like short stories, novels and poetry.

In math, students will be expected to analyze and discuss possible solution methods to problems, with the intent that they will understand the process of math better. Needless to say, many math teachers are not trained to coach students to find their own solutions to problems, so there is some resistance there.

I haven’t read Ravitch’s latest book yet, but I read her blog from time to time. Her argument against Common Core is its link with the standards testing that began with No Child Left Behind, and the “one size fits all” approach to education. For my part, although I probably will never have to teach the Common Core, I am always suspicious of educational reforms that are devised by education theorists who have little to no actual teaching experience. If I were a language arts teacher, I’d definitely resent the single-minded focus on reading non-fiction. While there is certainly merit to teaching students how to pick apart factual articles, it should not be at the expense of reading fiction, which is a lot more fun.

In fact, the Common Core will not be a national curriculum, because private, charter and church schools don’t have to follow it. So, it’s yet another wedge separating different economic classes within education.

I’m still undecided whether Common Core is good or bad, but if Ravitch doesn’t like it, I tend to side with her. You can read her blogs about it. dianeravitch.net

I like Ravitch - a lot. And while I agree with her concerns about Common Core, I also note that she is unhappy not with what’s in the standards but with the fact of the standards. The letter that originally started this, however, objects to what’s in the standards.

79 geoffm33  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 7:08:03am

re: #78 kirkspencer

I like Ravitch - a lot. And while I agree with her concerns about Common Core, I also note that she is unhappy not with what’s in the standards but with the fact of the standards. The letter that originally started this, however, objects to what’s in the standards.

Very true.

80 Skip Intro  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 8:47:23am

re: #4 moderatelyradicalliberal

Slander a GOP president = fired

Slander a Dem president = lame non-apology apology

There is no liberal media.

Even if she got fired, being blonde, she’d just move over to Fox News.

81 Justanotherhuman  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 8:48:06am

re: #77 kirkspencer

There is one section in the letter that I know is a lie. And since it’s a critical element it led me to suspect the rest of the letter had problems with the truth as well.

The letter claims:

Let’s start with the solipsism because it’s pretty common in CC objectors. Huck Finn is indeed being removed. What never gets mentioned is that Tom Sawyer is being added. They’re right, geometry isn’t going to be required of everyone - though of course they weren’t, anyway. Instead Algebra II will be the goal. Ulysses - Homer’s Odyssey - is not being removed but is instead part of the common core. Shakespeare is required reading.

See the lies now?

I have this standard. If I know someone is lying about the things I can check, why should I trust the things I can’t? If the position is built upon lies, why should I accept and support the position?

Given this letter is typical of the common core objectors, I’m left with little reasonable choice but to believe the objectors wrong, that common core is acceptable.

I will add that the majority of objectors seem to be ramping up in anticipation. Buried in this letter, and in dozens of others I’ve read, are remarks along the lines of how if the published standards for math and literature are so flawed we must absolutely prevent the standards for science and history being presented. Fellow lizards will no doubt recall that both science and history are major issues of controversy for certain people. It only makes me more certain that Common Core is a good idea.

Funny you should mention this. I heard the same argument in 1981 at NYU School of Mgmt where I worked in NYC from a professor there. His example was why should a bus driver have to read any of the classics? Why know anything about history? So—if those subjects are not going to be taught in the first place, do we know how many bus drivers might have gone on to pursue a university degree, or you would have to assume that people are being “trained” in certain ways to become employees, not educated individuals.

I’m old enough (72) to know about when this change from “classical” education to a more business oriented approach started—in the ’50s, classical education was still going strong and it was what I wanted, but couldn’t have (at that time, I wanted to teach some kind of literature at the college level, and perhaps write). But some schools were already offering a lot of business courses (jr college “business schools” opening up all over), catering to the post-war veterans, the GI Bill, and buildup of the economy. Working class kids like me didn’t usually go to university then, esp girls. By the ’70s, when I was able to get a couple of years in community college prepping for a 4 yr degree in my 30s, it had changed totally (I never got it because of finances and personal reasons). Most students weren’t going the same route, as they were looking to get 1 or 2 yrs of training for jobs, not as liberal arts transfer students. The entire attitude about “college” had changed. As higher education has become more democratized, we’ve also managed to prevent the development of a lot of scholarship and discipline in many areas and are back to tracking. I think that democratization of education is a good thing, but I also think that they’ve underestimated students and what we want if they’re simply looking to business, both traditional and education, to create the curricula.

82 Skip Intro  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 8:50:10am

re: #46 Vicious Babushka

George Bush had a thing for rubbing bald/shaved heads. I have no idea why.

83 BongCrodny  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 8:51:55am

re: #82 Skip Intro

George Bush had a thing for rubbing bald/shaved heads. I have no idea why.

He was very interested in shiny objects.

84 spiderx  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:22:46pm

R.I.P 60 minutes.

85 Patricia Kayden  Mon, Nov 11, 2013 5:26:43pm

re: #80 Skip Intro

Even if she got fired, being blonde, she’d just move over to Fox News.

Which would be fine with me since I never watch Fox News. If all Rightwinger journalists ended up at Fox News, that would be great.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 154 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1