More Competition + Less Regulation = Higher Prices

Turning The Conservative Mantra On Its Head
LGF • Views: 26,563

At least when it comes to the insurance rates charged for comparable plans in Minnesota and Wisconsin under The Affordable Care Act, the conservative mantra that more competition plus less regulation is the way to lower health insurance prices is clearly false, according to an informative story published in the Oshkosh Northwestern yesterday (Sunday 11/10/2013).

When Minnesota state lawmaker Joe Atkins hunkered down to draft legislation outlining the way Minnesota would implement the Affordable Care Act, he had no idea the results would be so dramatic. The Gopher State is now enrolling individuals through its health-insurance exchange by the thousands and at health insurance premium rates that are among the lowest in the country. Next door in Wisconsin, the numbers of Obamacare enrollees have barely hit the hundreds and premium rates are between 25 and 35 percent higher than in Minnesota.
…
The reason for the large gap in rates is unclear but could be, in part, because of the more aggressive approach Minnesota has taken to implementing the law. The most obvious difference between the two states is their exchanges. Minnesota has its own online marketplace where residents and small businesses can shop for and buy insurance, while Wisconsin is relying on the federal government marketplace, which has been plagued with bugs and technical failures and doesn’t accommodate small businesses. If and when the Obama administration fixes that, the rate differentials will remain. And they are stark.

A 50-year-old Minnesotan who lives just south of the Twin Cities in Dakota County can buy a mid-level, silver plan for $241 a month. Just 20 miles away, across the state line in St. Croix County, the least expensive silver plan available to a 50-year-old Wisconsinite costs nearly three times that price — $622 a month.
…
Analysts say premiums are based on a number of factors, from health costs and demographics to market competitiveness. But when it comes to Wisconsin and Minnesota, none of those appears to account for such a wide disparity. The nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation found that health care costs in the two states are roughly the same. Per capita expenditures were $7,409 in Minnesota versus $7,233 in Wisconsin, according to the most recent data released in 2011 by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. And the costs have grown annually since 1991 at nearly the same rate — 6.7 percent in Wisconsin and 7 percent in Minnesota. As for competitiveness, only five insurers are offering plans on the Minnesota exchange. Wisconsin’s exchange has 13 carriers.

Cynthia Cox, a policy analyst at the Kaiser foundation, said regulation also plays a role in premium levels. In Minnesota, regulators forced insurers in several cases to resubmit lower rates because they questioned the justifications. In Wisconsin, regulators took a more hands-off approach and let all the rates go through as-is after reviewing carriers’ justifications.
…
“The fundamental difference between the two states, which are similar geographically and demographically and have very similar underlying medical costs, is that Minnesota has embraced the national health care reform law and is using the tools it provides to deliver more affordable health insurance, while the Walker administration has tried to undermine the law at every turn,” Citizen Action CEO Robert Kraig and researcher Kevin Kane wrote in a scathing op-ed recently published in The Capital Times of Madison.

Cross-posted at blogherenow.net

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333 comments
1 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:01:49am

Then, you have numbers like these. Amazingly, only 12 states have their own exchanges. But it certainly is a stark contrast.

Don’t expect big enrollment numbers for the health insurance exchanges

nbcnews.com

I don’t think the WH expected so many states to balk at opening their own exchanges, or refuse Fed funding for Medicaid, either. Those 2 factors alone will keep many people from even exploring the opportunity to get cheaper, heavily subsidized, or relatively free, health care coverage for the time being.

Is it any wonder that healthcare.gov is overwhelmed? It will be fixed, though, I have no doubt, and suffer no more “glitches” than any other large organization.

2 jamesfirecat  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:07:23am

I am shocked, shocked, to hear that reality does not back up a Republicna talking point!

3 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:10:26am

HURR HURR, OBAMA WANTS EVERYBODY TO DIE!!!111!!!

4 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:14:55am

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR, OBAMA WANTS EVERYBODY TO DIE!!!111!!!

Obama forces health insurance companies to cancel millions of customers, now won’t let them sign up new ones. Hindenburg.]

Pastor Bryan should avoid gasbag metaphors.

5 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:28:38am

I don’t think you can blame the competition of additional providers for the higher prices. As for whether the Land of 10,000 Lakes’ plan works out better than that of the Cheeseheads, we’ll have to see. the impact of this particular law really needs to be assessed after year rather than after a month. It’s dynamics will need time to unfold.

But all that said, Bryan Fischer’s carping about Obamacare reveals him as an asshole yet again.

6 A Mom Anon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:28:45am

Why who could have possibly predicted that next to no regulations would allow those angelic corporations to become even more greedy? Because, as we all know giant companies ALWAYS do the right thing when no one’s looking….

We’re one of those families having issues. Husband’s company does offer insurance, but to include the kid on the policy doubles the price to the point it’s 25 percent of the husband’s take home pay. It’s bad enough with just the two of us on the policy. So we had to purchase a stand alone policy in June for the kid. I had to renew this policy at a slightly higher rate this morning, because the deadline was Friday. Or the rate on the new policy to replace this one nearly triples beginning Jan 1. I have an account set up on healthcare.gov, but I can’t get past the verification page. So, we wait and see if we have any other options til this is fixed. We honestly may be one of those families that falls through the cracks on this, because we have a weird situation.

I could get the kid to sign up for Medicaid, but there are literally no doctors within 20 miles of my house that will take it. His doctor does, for existing patients, but they told me that there are limits on tests and other services and that it might not be the best idea. Also, I’m not even sure we can sign him up for that because our household income is too high to qualify. Does all this make me hate Obamacare? Nope. Because the day is going to come where there’s a job loss and we will qualify for it. Or the kid is going to need a policy and he’ll be able to find something that he can afford. Because I’m not a selfish jerk.

7 KingKenrod  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:30:27am

More competition and less regulation aren’t the only thing affecting prices in Wisconsin. Wisconsin decided to dump their high-cost customers on the exchanges immediately while Minnesota is delaying that and expanding Medicare.

Walker is trying to sabotage the ACA implementation in Wisconsin, in hopes of creating a public backlash against it.

8 122 Year Old Obama  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:35:08am

re: #7 KingKenrod

Walker Republicans across the nation is are trying to sabotage the ACA implementation in Wisconsin, in hopes of creating a public backlash against it.

FTFY

Would this qualify as a self-fulfilling prophecy?

9 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:35:42am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

I don’t think you can blame the competition of additional providers for the higher prices. As for whether the Land of 10,000 Lakes’ plan works out better than that of the Cheeseheads, we’ll have to see. the impact of this particular law really needs to be assessed after year rather than after a month. It’s dynamics will need time to unfold.

But all that said, Bryan Fischer’s carping about Obamacare reveals him as an asshole yet again.

It’s not the competition that’s the deciding factor. It’s the lack of regulation. Competition should, in theory, drive rates lower because, well, competition. But the fact is, when presented with an opportunity to take advantage of people by pushing through bullshit “justifications” for higher health insurance rates, Wisconsin insurance providers jumped at the chance and the regulators rubber-stamped them. It’s indirect collusion - the insurance companies may not be directly collaborating to run a market monopoly, but nobody’s going to dare undercut each other when they’re all running such a huge cash cow.

10 A Mom Anon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:36:16am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon
Yeah, but we can blame the greed of the providers for the higher costs as well as Governor Walker’s refusal to participate in the state level exchanges. The lack of regulations isn’t at all helpful either. States that decided to create their own exchanges aren’t having these issues. In GA, our insurance commissioner has flat out admitted he and the Governor are doing everything in their power to make sure the ACA fails in GA, including not even really bothering to question the rates the companies are charging and asking them for justification. Just to be assholes about it, well that and they’re lining their pockets and campaign funds with money from those wanting the ACA to fail.

Most people, around 85 percent, get insurance via their employers. This stuff doesn’t effect them directly yet. I think over time everyone’s rates will even out and drop some, no matter where your insurance comes from. That will take time, and you’re right, we won’t know for about a year or so how this is all going to come out.

11 darthstar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:39:20am

re: #9 thedopefishlives

It’s not the competition that’s the deciding factor. It’s the lack of regulation. Competition should, in theory, drive rates lower because, well, competition. But the fact is, when presented with an opportunity to take advantage of people by pushing through bullshit “justifications” for higher health insurance rates, Wisconsin insurance providers jumped at the chance and the regulators rubber-stamped them. It’s indirect collusion - the insurance companies may not be directly collaborating to run a market monopoly, but nobody’s going to dare undercut each other when they’re all running such a huge cash cow.

Exactly. They’re just taking advantage of the opportunity Walker gave them to fuck people over. In states with exchanges, companies lowered their prices to help get more people to sign up. In states without them, they can charge what they want.

The irony here is that the insurance companies will ultimately help push red states into Obamacare as the residents there look at their neighboring states and say, “Why aren’t we getting that deal?”

12 122 Year Old Obama  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:40:09am

When did the health of American citizens become a for profit enterprise?

13 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:43:58am

re: #12 122 Year Old Obama

When did the health of American citizens become a for profit enterprise?

But that’s the American Way! Bootstraps! Capitalism! AYN RAND!!!!1!1one

14 Aqua Obama  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:51:05am

By gawd, if I can’t charge people my way, I’m blowing up the hospital!

15 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:53:55am

One thing not mentioned in the article: I am ELEVENTY PERCENT POSITIVE that MNSure’s catchy Paul Bunyan ads have something to do with how popular it is.

//

16 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:54:40am

re: #12 122 Year Old Obama

When did the health of American citizens become a for profit enterprise?

It has been that way, at least in part, since the Founding.

17 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:55:52am

re: #15 thedopefishlives

One thing not mentioned in the article: I am ELEVENTY PERCENT POSITIVE that MNSure’s catchy Paul Bunyan ads have something to do with how popular it is.

//

Are they good, or just so lame they’re funny?

18 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:00:25am

To me the amusing part is what happens at the end of 2014 with all these high price plans.

The people who are on them are going to receive tidy little checks by March of 2015.

Remember that little profit clause. No insurance company may keep more than 20% above benefits paid over the year for expenses and profit. Anything above that will be refunded (proportionally) to the customers.

It’s going to be interesting.

19 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:04:20am

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

Are they good, or just so lame they’re funny?

Definitely the latter. Go look them up on YouTube, I’m sure they’re out there. I think they’re intentionally that way, though, so if you ask me, freakin’ brilliant.

20 darthstar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:04:30am
21 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:10:40am

re: #18 kirkspencer

To me the amusing part is what happens at the end of 2014 with all these high price plans.

The people who are on them are going to receive tidy little checks by March of 2015.

Remember that little profit clause. No insurance company may keep more than 20% above benefits paid over the year for expenses and profit. Anything above that will be refunded (proportionally) to the customers.

It’s going to be interesting.

Oh, that. Well, lets just say that said monies will be invested, shall we say. Some of it legitimately will be, in approving new treatments, funding corporate infrastructure, that sort of thing. Some other monies may end up used to pay for expenses such as executive travel. Which would be good for Gulfstream, I suppose.

/DF’s mind in creative weasel mode.

22 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:11:50am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

It’s almost scary how well you’re able to come up with some of this stuff. You’re not a CEO in disguise as a mere mortal, are you? *suspicious glare*

23 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:12:42am
24 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:14:57am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

Just as Snowden found out, you can run but you can’t hide.

25 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:16:03am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Oh, that. Well, lets just say that said monies will be invested, shall we say. Some of it legitimately will be, in approving new treatments, funding corporate infrastructure, that sort of thing. Some other monies may end up used to pay for expenses such as executive travel. Which would be good for Gulfstream, I suppose.

/DF’s mind in creative weasel mode.

yeah, except the law’s pretty clear. They can’t invest it. 20% of what exceeds benefits paid, period. Invest it if you want short-term, but it better be in checks by the end of March or you get to deal with the penalties.

It’s one of the clearer portions of the law.

26 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:17:35am

WOW. BREATHTAKING DERP.
This dumbass doesn’t know that ACORN doesn’t even exist.
HURR HURR

27 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:18:23am

re: #25 kirkspencer

yeah, except the law’s pretty clear. They can’t invest it. 20% of what exceeds benefits paid, period. Invest it if you want short-term, but it better be in checks by the end of March or you get to deal with the penalties.

It’s one of the clearer portions of the law.

God, think how many qualified executives are going to quit the health insurance industry when their bonus checks are reduced…

they will have to look for jobs in the finance industry.

/

28 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:18:24am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

fwiw, it’s too late for them. If anyone actually does this, that group’s records get to be seized (with a warrant, of course) and everyone who had a hand gets to explain why they conspired to commit a felony.

29 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:19:20am

re: #27 Sol Berdinowitz

God, think how many qualified executives are going to quit the health insurance industry when their bonus checks are reduced…

they will have to look for jobs in the finance industry.

/

no, no, they’ll just downsize their employee base.

30 missliberties  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:22:01am

Thank You for this. This is exactly what we need. It’s way past time people started making the philosophical argument backed by data to show what works and what does not.

31 darthstar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:25:01am


Gotta retweet a response to GG to see his derp.

32 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:29:07am

re: #22 thedopefishlives

It’s almost scary how well you’re able to come up with some of this stuff. You’re not a CEO in disguise as a mere mortal, are you? *suspicious glare*

No, merely a salesman.

But I know government and I remember reading here and in my research how regulations are circumvented. I was semi-kidding about the ‘Gulfstream’ part, but I do think that ‘expenses’ probably can be stretched to cover buying new computers or remodeling corporate buildings.

33 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:30:28am

WORST. DOCTOR. EVER.

34 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:35:26am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. We got our first snowfall of the season here - well, it was snowing at least. Don’t think it amounted to anything truly measurable in NYC, but it was pretty while it was falling.

The GOP’s mendacity over the ACA can be seen all around the country. From WI, where Gov. Walker and the GOP has blocked implementation and foisted higher costs by hook and crook, to southern states where the ACA would have helped a far higher percentage of uninsureds than in the traditional Blue States.

And there’s far too many people who really don’t understand how the law works. It’s complexity is lost on lots of people, including those that might otherwise support the law and its outcomes. Some of that complexity is necessary as part of the means testing and individual mandate provisions. The GOP uses the complexity as a sign that the law doesn’t work, even though their ultimate goal is to make Medicare and Medicaid into the same kind of means-tested nightmare. They aren’t about simplification or making the provision of health insurance via exchanges easier. It’s about reimagining the safety net and making it tougher for people to get access to affordable health care - or insurance.

35 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:36:18am

re: #31 darthstar

[Embedded content]


Gotta retweet a response to GG to see his derp.

Interesting that an article with the headline “The secret, dirty cost of Obama’s green power push” would be published by the Associated Press. With that title, I’d expect it to come from Fox News, Breitbart.com, or The Blaze. Though I’m sure that those entities will run the story prominently. I wonder what other media outlets will pick it up.

36 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:39:06am
37 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:41:24am

BRB. Going to watch my ball sack undulate. //

38 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42:27am

re: #36 Gus

[Embedded content]

I want to see that on Bryan Fischer’s Twitter timeline!

Maybe he & Richard Dawkins can get together and compare their ballsacks.

39 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42:44am

Good morning Lizards from sunny (and mildly snow-covered) Lombard, IL.

Flurries left some snow lying on the grass and bushes - and then hied towards NYC and the East Coast to spread the fun there. A bit nippy out (25F) and I had a nice walk in the wind to the training class site.

Cup of so-so coffee and a bagel while waiting for class to start.

40 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:44:22am

re: #38 Vicious Babushka

I want to see that on Bryan Fischer’s Twitter timeline!

Maybe he & Richard Dawkins can get together and compare their ballsacks.

Here’s hoping that Japanese kids don’t start “bageling” down there. //

41 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:45:37am

re: #39 Feline Fearless Leader

Good morning Lizards from sunny (and mildly snow-covered) Lombard, IL.

Flurries left some snow lying on the grass and bushes - and then hied towards NYC and the East Coast to spread the fun there. A bit nippy out (25F) and I had a nice walk in the wind to the training class site.

Cup of so-so coffee and a bagel while waiting for class to start.

10 degrees F (-12 degrees C) up here in the cold and clear wild north country. I feel bad for the Mrs. Fish, whose car is parked outside and coated in a healthy shell of frost this morning.

42 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:45:37am

re: #39 Feline Fearless Leader

Good morning Lizards from sunny (and mildly snow-covered) Lombard, IL.

Flurries left some snow lying on the grass and bushes - and then hied towards NYC and the East Coast to spread the fun there. A bit nippy out (25F) and I had a nice walk in the wind to the training class site.

Cup of so-so coffee and a bagel while waiting for class to start.

Lombard, eh? That’s out not too far from GGT. Business trip, I assume.

43 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:45:44am

RUSH IS ASSHOLE OF THE DAY, EACH AND EVERY DAY. Just give him a lifetime achievement award.

44 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:47:05am

AP director of photography is unimpressed with White House policy.
Only two oval office photo sessions in this entire administration? Huh. Seems a little odd.

45 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:47:29am

re: #38 Vicious Babushka

I want to see that on Bryan Fischer’s Twitter timeline!

Maybe he & Richard Dawkins can get together and compare their ballsacks.

I didn’t need that image right before breakfast.

[DF opens the bathroom closet and starts looking] Now, where’s that brain bleach…

46 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:48:29am

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

Did you happen to see where he put himself totally behind the TP wing, and slammed the “donor base” “establishment GOP”? All in for the TP.

47 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:48:35am

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Lombard, eh? That’s out not too far from GGT. Business trip, I assume.

Yes. 5-day SAP training class. Learning about Process Integration software.

No car, so I have limited mobility. But there are 5-6 restaurants, a mall, and a movie theater within reasonable walking distance. Plus I have books and a laptop along for doing additional work and entertainment.

48 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:55:09am

No, you fought for “Independence” twice, the second time you got your secesh asses kicked.

49 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:58:24am

re: #48 Vicious Babushka

No, you fought for “Independence” twice, the second time you got your secesh asses kicked.

There’s a sick and twisted part of me that just hopes they try their hand at this “revolution” thing and get themselves thoroughly up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. It would at least get them all to shut the heck up.

50 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:58:46am

You will not believe this piece by Kuttner.


Snowden on a US postage stamp? Give me a fucking break and stop comparing him to MLK.

And this: “Have we totally forgotten counter-terrorism chief Richard Clarke’s revelations about the months before the attacks of 9/11? The American authorities had all the information they needed to understand that al Qaeda was planning something very big.”

Well, I have Clarke’s book and have read it and while I agree that Bush & Co ignored the signs that something big was coming down, they certainly didn’t have all the details, had no idea where, when and how it would happen, and even Clarke did not say that. There was no real organized information. But Bush ignored the emails and intel that were being given to him and it was the first major failure of his admin, IMHO.

51 GlutenFreeJesus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:58:47am

re: #48 Vicious Babushka

No, you fought for “Independence” twice, the second time you got your secesh asses kicked.

[Embedded content]

All you gotta do is ask them “Well? What are you waiting for? Your country needs you!”. The they shut up because they are just cowards with big mouths.

52 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:59:16am

re: #47 Feline Fearless Leader

Yes. 5-day SAP training class. Learning about Process Integration software.

No car, so I have limited mobility. But there are 5-6 restaurants, a mall, and a movie theater within reasonable walking distance. Plus I have books and a laptop along for doing additional work and entertainment.

If you’re near Yorktown you have more mobility than you might think. Most of the hotels there will get you to the Lombard Metra station and from there trains run to Chicago. In nearby Oakbrook is a branch of Gibsons, a steakhouse that my family and I recommend very highly. It can be reached via Pace bus #322, which runs fairly late, making dinner there possible (It’s also open for lunch). Oak Brook Center mall is also reached via the #322. That mall has a Barnes and Noble, which can be useful for buying a book for your flight home.

Just some ideas for your time here in the Land of Lincoln.

53 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:00:37am

re: #49 thedopefishlives

There’s a sick and twisted part of me that just hopes they try their hand at this “revolution” thing and get themselves thoroughly up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. It would at least get them all to shut the heck up.

No it wouldn’t. There would be a bunch of death and destruction, possibly grinding out for years if resistance goes underground. And behind it another “Lost Cause” mythology would arise. These people are being ruled by illogic and emotion - a thumping will not get them to change.

54 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:01:38am

re: #53 Feline Fearless Leader

No it wouldn’t. There would be a bunch of death and destruction, possibly grinding out for years if resistance goes underground. And behind it another “Lost Cause” mythology would arise. These people are being ruled by illogic and emotion - a thumping will not get them to change.

That’s why I said it was the sick and twisted part of me. In my normal state, I recognize how completely fugly such a thing would actually be. For which I am glad that these people are too cowardly to actually attempt such a dreadful thing.

55 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:04:47am

It’s not too soon to start 2016 presidential race speculation.

There’s tons of speculation on the GOP side, and should it really surprise anyone that folks like Santorum, Perry, or Palin are discounting Gov. Chris Christie’s chances (even though Christie came out on top of their preferred candidate in Lonegan in the primaries?) In fact, they’re already running against Christie, even though none have declared for the race.

But it does signal the continuing divide among GOPers between the TP lunatics and the establishment GOPers, even though the differences between the two are more on style than substance (we’re talking about bad cop/worse cop).

On the Democrat side, it appears that the media is more interested in finding something to talk about by inventing potential opponents for Hillary Clinton than Democrats, than reporting on the actual state of the Democratic party. No one has declared themselves for 2016, and everyone is so far on the sidelines in that race. That includes Clinton, who appears to be a front runner should she actually run.

56 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:05:06am

re: #48 Vicious Babushka

No, you fought for “Independence” twice, the second time you got your secesh asses kicked.

[Embedded content]

Lost cause idiots.

I think a year from now (Nov 15!) they should have the 1AD & 1ID have a parade from Atlanta to Savannah in memory of Sherman’s March.

57 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:06:01am

re: #55 lawhawk

It’s not too soon to start 2016 presidential race speculation.

There’s tons of speculation on the GOP side, and should it really surprise anyone that folks like Santorum, Perry, or Palin are discounting Gov. Chris Christie’s chances (even though Christie came out on top of their preferred candidate in Lonegan in the primaries?) In fact, they’re already running against Christie, even though none have declared for the race.

But it does signal the continuing divide among GOPers between the TP lunatics and the establishment GOPers, even though the differences between the two are more on style than substance (we’re talking about bad cop/worse cop).

On the Democrat side, it appears that the media is more interested in finding something to talk about by inventing potential opponents for Hillary Clinton than Democrats, than reporting on the actual state of the Democratic party. No one has declared themselves for 2016, and everyone is so far on the sidelines in that race. That includes Clinton, who appears to be a front runner should she actually run.

Too soon and too boring.

58 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:08:41am

re: #50 Justanotherhuman

You will not believe this piece by Kuttner.

[Embedded content]


Snowden on a US postage stamp? Give me a fucking break and stop comparing him to MLK.

And this: “Have we totally forgotten counter-terrorism chief Richard Clarke’s revelations about the months before the attacks of 9/11? The American authorities had all the information they needed to understand that al Qaeda was planning something very big.”

Well, I have Clarke’s book and have read it and while I agree that Bush & Co ignored the signs that something big was coming down, they certainly didn’t have all the details, had no idea where, when and how it would happen, and even Clarke did not say that. There was no real organized information. But Bush ignored the emails and intel that were being given to him and it was the first major failure of his admin, IMHO.

I think much of it is that Bush the Younger didn’t think support could be built for taking effective pre-emptive action against Al-Qaeda. He’d referred to missiles strikes against their camps in Afghanistan as “using a $3,000,000 missile to blow up an empty $10 tent and hit a camel in the butt.” Prior to 9/11, covertly putting people on the ground in Afghanistan seemed out of the question, since Pakistan supported the Taliban as a way to control their neighbor.

59 piratedan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:08:45am

strikedebt.org

for people attempting to address the aftermath of the “old” health care system…..

60 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:10:01am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

If you’re near Yorktown you have more mobility than you might think. Most of the hotels there will get you to the Lombard Metra station and from there trains run to Chicago. In nearby Oakbrook is a branch of Gibsons, a steakhouse that my family and I recommend very highly. It can be reached via Pace bus #322, which runs fairly late, making dinner there possible (It’s also open for lunch). Oak Brook Center mall is also reached via the #322. That mall has a Barnes and Noble, which can be useful for buying a book for your flight home.

Just some ideas for your time here in the Land of Lincoln.

Gibsons is a little far to walk. :)

But not that far away since I’m near/on the Lombard/Oakbrook line. If by “Yorktown” you mean the Yorktown Mall I think that’s the one I can see from the hotel.

Thanks for the bus route information - that might be useful if I want to go further afield and not want to absorb the cost of a taxi.

61 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:17:00am

re: #50 Justanotherhuman

From the Huffer piece:

In Britain, where there is no First Amendment and where the heroic editor of the Guardian newspaper, Alan Rusbridger, keeps publishing Snowden’s revelations, the government has threatened to shut Rusbridger down.

The current issue of the New York Review of Books contains Rusbridger’s chilling account of being forced by British government agents to destroy computers that continued Snowden’s leaked documents, an absurd act of pure harassment since back-up copies of the documents were kept in New York. He wrote:

It is harder than you might think to destroy an Apple MacBook Pro according to British government standards. In a perfect world the officials who want to destroy such machines prefer them to be dropped into a kind of giant food mixer that reduces them to dust. Lacking such equipment, The Guardian purchased a power drill and angle grinder on July 20 this year and — under the watchful eyes of two state observers — ripped them into obsolescence.

Yes, the British government was being ‘tyrannical’ when it ordered the destruction of copies of information that could get British subjects killed. Seriously, how can Robert Kuttner write that schlock? To use the British word for it, it’s risible. It lacks a basic understanding of the first duty of a national government, which is to protect the nation and its people from harm.

62 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:17:53am

re: #55 lawhawk

But it does signal the continuing divide among GOPers between the TP lunatics and the establishment GOPers, even though the differences between the two are more on style than substance (we’re talking about bad cop/worse cop).

I’m so stealing this.

63 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:18:51am

re: #55 lawhawk

It’s not too soon to start 2016 presidential race speculation.

There’s tons of speculation on the GOP side, and should it really surprise anyone that folks like Santorum, Perry, or Palin are discounting Gov. Chris Christie’s chances (even though Christie came out on top of their preferred candidate in Lonegan in the primaries?) In fact, they’re already running against Christie, even though none have declared for the race.

But it does signal the continuing divide among GOPers between the TP lunatics and the establishment GOPers, even though the differences between the two are more on style than substance (we’re talking about bad cop/worse cop).

On the Democrat side, it appears that the media is more interested in finding something to talk about by inventing potential opponents for Hillary Clinton than Democrats, than reporting on the actual state of the Democratic party. No one has declared themselves for 2016, and everyone is so far on the sidelines in that race. That includes Clinton, who appears to be a front runner should she actually run.

Christie’s strength is that he’s the closest thing the GOP’s got to a moderate candidate (of the currently expected options).

Christie’s got three weaknesses.
a) he’s the closest thing the GOP’s got to a moderate candidate.
b) He polls well among Republicans in the Northeast, but behind other candidates everywhere else.
c) He’s got some heavy baggage (and not that wasn’t a pun on his weight). Some of that baggage is behavioral, and some is potential scandal level.

I think this is the cycle the Tea Party gets to pick, which rules out Christie. However, this assumes the Tea Party can get behind one candidate early enough and make it stick. Part of Romney’s gain was that the TP candidate of the week changed, well, almost weekly.

64 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:22:03am

Cruz/Palin in 2016.
Hillary in the WH Jan 2017.
/

65 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:23:29am

re: #12 122 Year Old Obama

When did the health of American citizens become a for profit enterprise?

Exactly, and that is a question our media fails all of us on as they do not seem to ask it in detail and pin some of these politicians down on an answer.

And when some idiot starts going off on “socialism” remind them of this (The Preamble to the US Constitution)

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

It has always seemed pretty damn clear to me that health of the people would fall under promoting general welfare.

As a mater of fact, I think this is a hell of a lot clearer than the many interpretations of the second amendment. And it could be said, the interpretations of the second amendment also sometimes fail to promote the general welfare. In my opinion.

66 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:23:35am

re: #60 Feline Fearless Leader

Gibsons is a little far to walk. :)

But not that far away since I’m near/on the Lombard/Oakbrook line. If by “Yorktown” you mean the Yorktown Mall I think that’s the one I can see from the hotel.

Thanks for the bus route information - that might be useful if I want to go further afield and not want to absorb the cost of a taxi.

Yes, it was Yorktown mall I was speaking of. I don’t live nearby, but I’ve been to Lombard for job fairs and gaming conventions, so I know the area a little. I thought I should share that info with my fellow lizard to make your time there better.

Lastly, there is also a Chick-fil-A on Cermak Rd/22nd St, right next to the Embassy Suites. They’re actually franchise owned, and fairly good if you like chicken. The two downtown locations serve breakfast, but I don’t know if the one in Lombard does. But if you want to try the place that Palinites are always harping out, you can do that while you’re in Lombard.

Again, feel free to let me know if there’s anything else I can help you find.

67 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:24:24am

re: #57 Gus

It’s never too early to speculate. /

Heck, the GOP can barely comprehend the meaning of the 2012 election outcome, which President Obama won, the Democrats retained the Senate, and the GOP efforts to delay/defund/destroy ACA were thwarted yet again.

So, the media’s gone searching for a new narrative. And it’s that the 2016 election season is underway.

68 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:24:58am

Not enough Jesus with Christie. From the northeast. Largely considered a RINO by the base. Has a “funny accent.” Forget about it. This reminds me of the Giuliani talk from years past. Won’t happen.

69 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:25:06am

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

It has been that way, at least in part, since the Founding.

You mean it’s been wrong all this time!

///

70 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:26:29am

re: #68 Gus

Not enough Jesus with Christie. From the northeast. Largely considered a RINO by the base. Has a “funny accent.” Forget about it. This reminds me of the Giuliani talk from years past. Won’t happen.

Anyone to the left of Rush Limbaugh isn’t going to pass the Teabagger test. They’re going to try to go full wingnut this year in an attempt to make this election a referendum on Obamacare. As much as we joke about Cruz/Palin, I wouldn’t be entirely shocked if it happened.

71 GoatLord  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:26:56am

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

where the heroic editor of the Guardian newspaper, Alan Rusbridger, keeps publishing Snowden’s revelations

Since when has making money off of state secrets been Heroic?

72 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:27:42am

re: #70 thedopefishlives

Anyone to the left of Rush Limbaugh isn’t going to pass the Teabagger test. They’re going to try to go full wingnut this year in an attempt to make this election a referendum on Obamacare. As much as we joke about Cruz/Palin, I wouldn’t be entirely shocked if it happened.

Yep. They’ll melt Christie in the primaries. Especially in the south. I think Palin is out but I could see either Cruz or Rubio.

73 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:29:30am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Yes, it was Yorktown mall I was speaking of. I don’t live nearby, but I’ve been to Lombard for job fairs and gaming conventions, so I know the area a little. I thought I should share that info with my fellow lizard to make your time there better.

Lastly, there is also a Chick-fil-A on Cermak Rd/22nd St, right next to the Embassy Suites. They’re actually franchise owned, and fairly good if you like chicken. The two downtown locations serve breakfast, but I don’t know if the one in Lombard does. But if you want to try the place that Palinites are always harping out, you can do that while you’re in Lombard.

Again, feel free to let me know if there’s anything else I can help you find.

I think they do since the one I walked past on the way to class had cars going through the drive-thru at about 8 am.

Looking at Google Map - sort of interesting how 22nd street disappears for a few blocks and then picks back up with the Butterfield Road intersection.

There is also a Chick-Fil-A is a food court in Philadelphia I frequent. Pretty much a standard fries and deep-fried chicken place in my opinion.

74 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:29:37am

Meanwhile, the Ark Encounter outfit is still trying to fleece the rubes and is now getting 501(c)(3) status to do so - so as to avoid ACA requirements to boot (to provide birth control, which they consider to be abortifaciants).

Their Kentucky tax credits are scheduled to expire next year, and they haven’t put together enough funds to get the ark underway at their creationist theme park.

So, what has the group opted to do? That’s right - it’s going and offering junk bonds:

In an executive summary sent to its supporters, Answers in Genesis makes the bonds sound like a decent investment. The group is offering bonds with 7-, 11-, and 15-year maturities, at yields between 5 and 6 percent. A 7-year bond starts at $250,000, while an 11-year bond begins at $50,000.

Tempting as those rates may seem, there’s a small catch. As Answers in Genesis readily admits, the bonds “are not expected to have any substantial secondary market” and are “not an obligation of AiG.” Somewhat alarmingly, the bonds are unrated, an indication that they’re extremely risky—and almost impossible to resell. High risk, higher yield: These, in essence, are creationist junk bonds.

I asked Jie Yang, a professor of finance at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business, for his opinions of the bonds.

“I would agree that these bonds are very high risk,” he told me. In addition to their lack of rating and a secondary market, the bonds are callable, meaning Answers in Genesis can collect on the bond at any point before it has matured. (The buyer has no such privilege.) Moreover, the bonds are secured only by the revenues and assets of the Ark Encounter project, not by Answers in Genesis itself.

“Should the project be unsuccessful,” Yang notes, “AiG holds no responsibility in meeting the interest payments of these bonds and the bonds may default.” If the project falls through, in other words, investors won’t just lose their interest payments: They’ll lose their entire investment.

75 klys  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:30:20am

The sister woke me up at 8am (5am, dammit, time zones suck) to see the frozen water from the sky.

I has a happy.

76 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:30:33am

The big buzz with conservatives and Republicans remains, Ted Cruz.

77 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:31:10am

Erick Erickson 2016! //

78 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:32:09am

re: #64 Feline Fearless Leader

One last thing: If you have a half day on Friday you might want to go into Chicago and visit the Museum of Science and Industry. The U-505 is there, and I know how big a WWII history buff you are.

79 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:32:27am

re: #76 Gus

The big buzz with conservatives and Republicans remains, Ted Cruz.

We’ve got a while until the election actually comes around, much as the Teabaggers would like to spin it otherwise. I’d be interested to see who among the early favorites is still in the conversation after they’ve finished peppering their feet with bullet holes in an attempt at positioning themselves for election.

80 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:33:47am

re: #73 Feline Fearless Leader

I think they do since the one I walked past on the way to class had cars going through the drive-thru at about 8 am.

Looking at Google Map - sort of interesting how 22nd street disappears for a few blocks and then picks back up with the Butterfield Road intersection.

There is also a Chick-Fil-A is a food court in Philadelphia I frequent. Pretty much a standard fries and deep-fried chicken place in my opinion.

Yeah, that bit of trickiness is confusing.

81 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:35:08am

re: #55 lawhawk

It’s not too soon to start 2016 presidential race speculation.

There’s tons of speculation on the GOP side, and should it really surprise anyone that folks like Santorum, Perry, or Palin are discounting Gov. Chris Christie’s chances (even though Christie came out on top of their preferred candidate in Lonegan in the primaries?) In fact, they’re already running against Christie, even though none have declared for the race.

But it does signal the continuing divide among GOPers between the TP lunatics and the establishment GOPers, even though the differences between the two are more on style than substance (we’re talking about bad cop/worse cop).

On the Democrat side, it appears that the media is more interested in finding something to talk about by inventing potential opponents for Hillary Clinton than Democrats, than reporting on the actual state of the Democratic party. No one has declared themselves for 2016, and everyone is so far on the sidelines in that race. That includes Clinton, who appears to be a front runner should she actually run.

I doubt Palin is going to run. She will tease a bit, but not run. I think in her stupid interview on The Today Show yesterday she said something to the effect that she understands change can come by being an outside influence. Which is Palin code for: “I can make lots of money and have zero responsibility doing it. Why would I run for office and actually have to be vetted further and stand up to the whole nomination process where the press will eat me alive!”

82 piratedan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:35:59am

re: #73 Feline Fearless Leader

I think they do since the one I walked past on the way to class had cars going through the drive-thru at about 8 am.

Looking at Google Map - sort of interesting how 22nd street disappears for a few blocks and then picks back up with the Butterfield Road intersection.

There is also a Chick-Fil-A is a food court in Philadelphia I frequent. Pretty much a standard fries and deep-fried chicken place in my opinion.

I don’t eat at Chick Fil-A anymore, one of those choices I can make as a consumer since the owner is a raging homophobe, same with papa John’s Pizza and trying to wean myself from Home Depot and Walmart too. I try to support local businesses where I can… seems small, but I feel better not adding to the profit margins of people that I don’t agree with politically.

83 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:36:24am

re: #75 klys

The sister woke me up at 8am (5am, dammit, time zones suck) to see the frozen water from the sky.

I has a happy.

I’ve been waiting to see you here again. I wanted to let you know that if you’re going to play ‘Tiny Death Star’, you should at least get the Owner’s Technical Manual.

/Stay on Target!

84 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:36:38am

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

One last thing: If you have a half day on Friday you might want to go into Chicago and visit the Museum of Science and Industry. The U-505 is there, and I know how big a WWII history buff you are.

Unfortunately too tightly timed to do that. Flight out on Friday is late afternoon and I pretty much have to go straight from class to the airport.

Going through the U-505 would have been a nice comparison to the couple of Balao-class I’ve been on. I expect it will be much more cramped and claustrophobic given the smaller displacement.

85 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:36:45am

re: #70 thedopefishlives

Anyone to the left of Rush Limbaugh isn’t going to pass the Teabagger test. They’re going to try to go full wingnut this year in an attempt to make this election a referendum on Obamacare. As much as we joke about Cruz/Palin, I wouldn’t be entirely shocked if it happened.

I have to laugh about how Christie winning a POTUS nom will be considered a move to the middle by the GOP. As Lawhawk pointed out, you have one faction that’s outwardly radical/insane; and another who pretty much espouses the same policies, but isn’t in a corner playing with their own shit.

I guess the question is how sick of the Tea Baggers the GOP and the oh-so-wise independents are. If I look at my neighbors here, then Christie has a better-than-average chance to get the nomination and possibly win. But as was pointed out earlier, the rest of “real” America wants nothing to do with him.

And there’s the whole issue of being nearly 2 years away from any of this shit going down.

What burns my ass is that Christie pretty much told me and the rest of NJ “Thanks for re-electing me, but I have zero intention of finishing my term.” I’m viewing that as “I’m so over being Governor at this point. Bring on the convention!!!”

86 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:38:01am

Christie’s reelection had the lowest voter turn-out in NJ since 1920.

87 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:38:25am

re: #82 piratedan

The Chick-Fil-A locations in Illinois are franchises, though, so the amount going to corporate isn’t very large. The places are what I’d call ‘local enough’.

88 klys  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:38:34am

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

I’ve been waiting to see you here again. I wanted to let you know that if you’re going to play ‘Tiny Death Star’, you should at least get the Owner’s Technical Manual.

/Stay on Target!

/confesses to being one of the first 10 helpful votes on the awesomest review ever

I am at the point where my stuff is mostly out of my old room and in my sister’s, and today’s project is figuring out what goes in the suitcases to go home this trip and what goes back into the closet in my room (the space I am being allowed to keep) for storage for later trips and/or shipping. I leave Thursday to go back home and tomorrow it is into the city to catch Twelfth Night (very excited about that) so it has been a little hectic.

89 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:38:42am
90 klys  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:39:54am

re: #88 klys

A link to the review, so you can all bask in the glory.

91 piratedan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:39:57am

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

The Chick-Fil-A locations in Illinois are franchises, though, so the amount going to corporate isn’t very large. The places are what I’d call ‘local enough’.

it’s a free country, do as you please

92 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:40:40am

re: #84 Feline Fearless Leader

Unfortunately too tightly timed to do that. Flight out on Friday is late afternoon and I pretty much have to go straight from class to the airport.

Going through the U-505 would have been a nice comparison to the couple of Balao-class I’ve been on. I expect it will be much more cramped and claustrophobic given the smaller displacement.

Not so much, given that we’re talking about a Type IX and not a Type VII. Still smaller, but a good bit bigger than most German subs. Though many German submariners favored the Type VII, due to its faster dive time (bigger subs took longer to dive).

93 klys  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:41:01am

Anyway, today’s to do list looms large. Back later (much later, probably…sigh) Lizards!

94 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:41:24am

re: #68 Gus

Not enough Jesus with Christie. From the northeast. Largely considered a RINO by the base. Has a “funny accent.” Forget about it. This reminds me of the Giuliani talk from years past. Won’t happen.

Much agreed. And I think the media with the help of Democrat and Independent push will go to work to trigger that infamous bully temper of his by pushing many buttons. Once he goes through a real nomination process he might not be able to get by it without looking like a man no one would want running this country. Closets will be opened, contents could be very ugly.

95 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:41:27am

re: #86 Gus

Christie’s reelection had the lowest voter turn-out in NJ since 1920.

Between everyone wetting their pants over how wonderful Christie is, and the Dems throwing in the towel at the get go, it’s not surprising.

There were a few Democratic mayors around here who were kissing his ass at meet-and-greets. I’m sure some of that was “Well, my voters love him, so I guess he’s my hero now as well.”

At least the minimum wage law passed. I’m surprised Christie hasn’t had a teacher beaten over that.

96 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:41:31am

DERP
Tell us about all their load testing.

97 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:42:22am

Chris Christie in the land of Johnny Rebel. Wheeee! Not going to work.

98 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:42:39am

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

DERP
Tell us about all their load testing.

Their load testing was “I called all my friends and had them hit it and it didn’t break.” Which is about the most absurd scalability test ever conceived. It’s the equivalent of saying, “I plugged it in and it didn’t explode, SHIP IT!”

99 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:43:11am

re: #91 piratedan

it’s a free country, do as you please

Yeah, the whole “Fuck you, dirty gay people” gestalt from Chick-Fil-A is reason enough to avoid them, franchised or otherwise.

100 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:43:28am

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

DERP
Tell us about all their load testing.

[Embedded content]

Its carburettor burns water, too.

101 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:43:40am

WHY CHRIS CHRISTIE TAKES HIS ORDERS FROM THAT EYETALIAN COMMUNIST POPE FROM ARGHINTINA!

102 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:46:34am

re: #101 Gus

WHY CHRIS CHRISTIE TAKES HIS ORDERS FROM THAT EYETALIAN COMMUNIST POPE FROM ARGHINTINA!

Heh, the one time I remember he was asked about creationism being taught as science, he want into bully mode and screamed at the reporter that it wasn’t his responsibility.

It’ll be subtle, but you’ll start seeing the Jesus talk creep in there.

103 b.d.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:46:41am

re: #100 Decatur Deb

Its carburettor burns water, too.

YOU COULD POWER THE ENTIRE WORLD BY MIXING TOGETHER MENTOS AND DIET COKE

104 steve_davis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:46:59am

re: #1 Justanotherhuman

Then, you have numbers like these. Amazingly, only 12 states have their own exchanges. But it certainly is a stark contrast.

Don’t expect big enrollment numbers for the health insurance exchanges

nbcnews.com

I don’t think the WH expected so many states to balk at opening their own exchanges, or refuse Fed funding for Medicaid, either. Those 2 factors alone will keep many people from even exploring the opportunity to get cheaper, heavily subsidized, or relatively free, health care coverage for the time being.

Is it any wonder that healthcare.gov is overwhelmed? It will be fixed, though, I have no doubt, and suffer no more “glitches” than any other large organization.

There’s both a blessing and a curse in the website’s problems. There are folks like me who are enrolled and have everything ready to roll for January, but we’re getting locked up somewhere in the system. For me, it’s the dental plan. I don’t want one and I keep telling the system I don’t want one, but it keeps kicking me back out to the page where the dental plan is set. And until I get that taken care of, I can’t get coverage confirmation and I’m not enrolled in insurance. My guess is there are probably half-a-million folks like me in that boat. The blessing from this is that it means it’s entirely possible the number of enrollees for December 15th will be a million or more, even if only 50,000 people have gotten through the system by Friday.

105 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:47:05am

“Three computer geeks make working Obamacare site in three days” translates to me as, “I called my nephew in to develop this cool website thingy, he’s good with computers so it’ll work real well.” The end of the story is the same: A system in flaming, smoking ruin.

106 EmmaAnne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:47:22am

re: #50 Justanotherhuman

You will not believe this piece by Kuttner.

[Embedded content]


Snowden on a US postage stamp? Give me a fucking break and stop comparing him to MLK.

And this: “Have we totally forgotten counter-terrorism chief Richard Clarke’s revelations about the months before the attacks of 9/11? The American authorities had all the information they needed to understand that al Qaeda was planning something very big.”

Well, I have Clarke’s book and have read it and while I agree that Bush & Co ignored the signs that something big was coming down, they certainly didn’t have all the details, had no idea where, when and how it would happen, and even Clarke did not say that. There was no real organized information. But Bush ignored the emails and intel that were being given to him and it was the first major failure of his admin, IMHO.

Maybe passive aggressive? ‘Cause you can’t get on a stamp until you are dead.

107 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:48:49am

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

DERP
Tell us about all their load testing.

[Embedded content]

And I bet you they had all those other databases tied in like needed too. I’m sure tying into the IRS alone is a big bag of fun. Then you have to connect to all the insurance companies, the different state databases for info on people, etc., etc.

You know, some people just need to admit they have no clue as to how complicated the ACA site is to get to work. And stop using Amazon.com as an example. It took them a long time to get their process down and how long was it before they turned a profit.

108 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:49:14am

re: #102 Mattand

Heh, the one time I remember he was asked about creationism being taught as science, he want into bully mode and screamed at the reporter that it wasn’t his responsibility.

It’ll be subtle, but you’ll start seeing the Jesus talk creep in there.

Ha! I was trying to picture that earlier. Born-Again Christie 1.0™

109 b.d.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:49:37am

THE KIDS DOWN THE STREET BUILT AN INTERNET ONCE

110 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:50:09am

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

Not so much, given that we’re talking about a Type IX and not a Type VII. Still smaller, but a good bit bigger than most German subs. Though many German submariners favored the Type VII, due to its faster dive time (bigger subs took longer to dive).

Something like a Type VII (or even a Type IX) were probably complete hellhole boats in the tropics given the lack of A/C. Should see if there is anything to read regarding operations of the boats out of Penang into the Indian Ocean and see what that says on the subject.

There are also a few books directly on experiences with the older S-boats (built in the 1920s) during the war. Those were roughly equal displacement to a Type VII in addition to being pretty old by the time of the war.

111 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:51:07am

re: #107 ObserverArt

You know, some people just need to admit they have no clue as to how complicated the ACA site is to get to work. And stop using Amazon.com as an example. It took them a long time to get their process down and how long was it before they turned a profit.

One thing that bugs me about advanced technology is trying to explain how complicated it is to people who want it to Just Work (tm). If I were to sit the fishfolk down to explain to them why it’s more complicated than “just a website”, their eyes would glaze over and they’d start drooling and repeating “Obamacare is teh debbil” over and over again.

112 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:54:34am

Yeoman! Invoke Christ Christie Southern Strategy procedure at once!

113 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:54:49am

re: #99 Mattand

Yeah, the whole “Fuck you, dirty gay people” gestalt from Chick-Fil-A is reason enough to avoid them, franchised or otherwise.

Never been to one. There are some in Columbus now, but unfortunately for them, once I discovered a few in my area of travels, the gay dust-up broke out and I decided I am not going to start going now.

Plus, I make some pretty good chicken dishes myself. Mexican El Pollo Mole and a mean Szechuan being two favorites. Also, I can make a good Buffalo style sandwich. Who needs em, and I can control the fat content…and the spice and heat.

114 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:54:52am

HURR HURR

115 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:55:05am

Breaking. Chris Christie hires Lee Atwater as campaign strategist.

116 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:55:48am
117 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:56:29am

Weed Break:

118 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:57:00am

re: #116 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Richard Cohen looks like he is the baby daddy of the Atlanta Zoo’s newborn Panda.

119 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:57:08am

re: #109 b.d.

THE KIDS DOWN THE STREET BUILT AN INTERNET ONCE

Once!

120 piratedan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:59:19am

re: #119 ObserverArt

Once!

it was after that project where they proved that a duck weighs the same as a witch….////

121 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 7:59:31am

re: #116 Lidane

[Embedded content]

“I’m not a anti-miscegenation but I can understand why people would be that way.”

122 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:00:57am

Space photography break:

123 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:02:21am

re: #116 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Richard Cohen is an asshat. I have ‘conventional views’ and I don’t ‘have to suppress a gag reflex’ at the sight of a bi-racial couple. Most of my family and friends have conventional views, but neither does such a sight trouble them either.

Newsflash, Rich: It’s 2013, not 1963!

124 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:02:30am
125 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:05:26am

re: #118 Vicious Babushka

Richard Cohen looks like he is the baby daddy of the Atlanta Zoo’s newborn Panda.

Are you implying that he is part of a bi-species couple?
/// ;p

126 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:06:38am

re: #122 lawhawk

Space photography break:

[Embedded content]

Mmmmm donut.

127 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:06:44am

re: #125 Feline Fearless Leader

Are you implying that he is part of a bi-species couple?
/// ;p

Just saying a DNA sample might show a certain % of panda.

128 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:07:59am
There are a variety of explanations, of course, including the political clout of the National Rifle Association. But there are also deeper, psychological reasons why so many Americans would rather endure mass shooting after mass shooting rather than agree to any restrictions on gun ownership.

And one of them, it appears, is ingrained racism.

129 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:10:18am

re: #124 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Note that this is on Rush’s own website and not in his Weird Nut Daily column. If even WND thinks you pulled your ‘story’ out of your ass, then you’re so far gone you can’t even see reality anymore.

130 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:10:23am

Christie will have to spend a couple of months in the Pinelands.

131 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:11:25am

And it’s official. 1WTC is the tallest building in the Americas.


The Height Committee of the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat announced that 1WTC supplants the Willis Tower (fka Sears Tower) as tallest in the US. 1,776 ft is the new standard in the US.

Oh, and that’s still about 1,000 feet shorter than the world’s tallest building, the Burj Khalifa in Dubai (2,717 feet).

132 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:12:34am

re: #128 FemNaziBitch

I saw that study, but I question its validity. its use of the idea ‘symbolic racism’ seems to me a likely producer of inaccuracies., and leaves it open to criticism.

133 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:12:41am

re: #130 Gus

He’d be a hero if he finds the Jersey Devil. Double points if he comes back with its head on a platter. /

134 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:13:58am

re: #131 lawhawk

And it’s official. 1WTC is the tallest building in the Americas.

[Embedded content]


The Height Committee of the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat announced that 1WTC supplants the Willis Tower (fka Sears Tower) as tallest in the US. 1,776 ft is the new standard in the US.

Oh, and that’s still about 1,000 feet shorter than the world’s tallest building, the Burj Khalifa in Dubai (2,717 feet).

And this Chicagoan officially hates you and NYC, too!

/Almost entirely kidding.

135 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:17:10am

re: #124 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Of course they are. They’re both not-white.

136 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:18:27am

DERP DERP HURR HURR

137 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:19:12am

re: #131 lawhawk

And it’s official. 1WTC is the tallest building in the Americas.

[Embedded content]


The Height Committee of the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat announced that 1WTC supplants the Willis Tower (fka Sears Tower) as tallest in the US. 1,776 ft is the new standard in the US.

Oh, and that’s still about 1,000 feet shorter than the world’s tallest building, the Burj Khalifa in Dubai (2,717 feet).

Just one more Tower of Babel.

138 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:19:44am
139 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:19:55am

Oh yeah. Forgot about the Christie freak outs. Love it.

140 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:21:17am

Christie freaking out like some guy you just cut off on the NJ Turnpike at the Newark exit.

141 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:22:26am

re: #139 Gus

Oh yeah. Forgot about the Christie freak outs. Love it.

Christie is getting his freak on?

142 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:22:51am

F*ck you!

Oh yeah! F*ck you too!

Oh yeah! I f*cked your mother!

F*ck you!

143 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:23:17am

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

I saw that study, but I question its validity. its use of the idea ‘symbolic racism’ seems to me a likely producer of inaccuracies., and leaves it open to criticism.

I would think that too if personal experience didn’t confirm the results of the study. I’ve become more attuned to other people’s attitudes in the last few years. How they react with some of my friends, or my son’s friends is a good indicator. Mostly, it’s body language —overtly they seem to accept the person, but they really don’t.

I asked my girlfriend if I was reading things right and I got the most mature answer: “GGT, you can’t change people, you can only pray for them.”

144 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:24:00am

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

And this Chicagoan officially hates you and NYC, too!

/Almost entirely kidding.

The Council on Tall Buildings is located in…. wait for it…. wait for it….

Chicago.

145 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:25:56am

Dark, did you see this shit?

Someone’s daughter died, because she was black. Period.

146 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:27:15am

“I was raised on the dairy b*tch!”
— Chris Christie 2016

147 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:27:29am

re: #131 lawhawk

The Height Committee of the Council on Tall Buildings

That sounds straight out of a Monty Python sketch.

148 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:28:28am

I just finished watching the 3rd season of The Walking Dead. Boy, what a reversal - Glen becomes a bad-ass and Andrea goes wimpy.

This series is all about human psychology.

149 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:28:36am

re: #147 makeitstop

That sounds straight out of a Monty Python sketch.

Advised by Mitt Romney on determining if they are of the *right* height.
//

150 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:28:38am

re: #144 lawhawk

The Council on Tall Buildings is located in…. wait for it…. wait for it….

Chicago.

Hey, I’m just foolin’, but thanks for that detail. NYC really does deserve its new addition, and it looks damn good. If Chicago wants to surpass you, we’ll do that in time. But with Chicago and New York, skyscrapers must serve a commercial purpose. Our tallest aren’t vanity projects, and our price shines through all the more because of that.

151 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:30:48am

re: #145 FemNaziBitch

Dark, did you see this shit?

Someone’s daughter died, because she was black. Period.

She was standing on someone’s ground.

/

152 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:31:10am

re: #145 FemNaziBitch

Dark, did you see this shit?

Someone’s daughter died, because she was black. Period.

Yes ma’am, I did. It was discussed on a Page that I put up a few days ago.

153 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:33:46am

re: #111 thedopefishlives

One thing that bugs me about advanced technology is trying to explain how complicated it is to people who want it to Just Work (tm). If I were to sit the fishfolk down to explain to them why it’s more complicated than “just a website”, their eyes would glaze over and they’d start drooling and repeating “Obamacare is teh debbil” over and over again.

It’s why I’ve taken to using analogies, with an attempt to fit it to the person I’m speaking with.

‘Just a website’ is a bicycle (apologies to WW). Obamacare’s more of a NASCAR sprinter.

154 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:33:59am

re: #147 makeitstop

That sounds straight out of a Monty Python sketch.

Then it would be “The Ministry of … “

155 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:35:16am

HURR HURR

156 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:35:42am

re: #154 FemNaziBitch

Then it would be “The Ministry of … “

Tall Building Walks. They hire Batman to walk up the side of the buildings in order to survey their height with one of those rolling distance measurers.

:)

157 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:35:50am

re: #116 Lidane

One of the big problems with this country is that worthless media hacks like Richard Cohen continue to define “conventional views” as whatever the tiny shrieking minority of white, rural, conservative Christians say it is. This really needs to fucking stop. Those asshats who voted to secede from Colorado have a combined county population of about 29,000, which is less than 5% of the population of Denver. It’s Denver that is “real” Colorado with “conventional views”. The asshats on the high plains are outliers with unorthodox views. The end.

158 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:36:47am

re: #155 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

Wait. So that Russia is now docking naval ships in Egypt for the first time in decades means nothing to him?

159 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:38:39am

Interesting that tall buildings are being discussed this morning. I started re-reading a collection of Ted Chiang short stories last night and the first one was “Tower of Babylon”.

en.wikipedia.org

160 EmmaAnne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:38:43am

re: #125 Feline Fearless Leader

Are you implying that he is part of a bi-species couple?
/// ;p

Hmm. I am suppressing a gag reflex …

161 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:40:15am

re: #138 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

The thing about that Politico story is that Candidate Elizabeth Warren could be quite a good thing for the Republican Party. She’d be a close enough match to Hillary Clinton to make for a relatively long, draining primary and might cause the candidates to have to veer left to attract primary voters. Whoever ultimately won would be short on cash till after the convention, and might have trouble tacking back to the center.

This would more a leveler than a situation where a still-flush Republican could unload on a broke Democrat over the summer, since the GOP primary will also likely be a drawn-out affair. However, The fear of Warren would also convince Wall Street to back the Republicans more firmly. And that money might prove a critical edge.

162 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:40:38am

re: #158 Gus

Wait. So that Russia is now docking naval ships in Egypt for the first time in decades means nothing to him?

Speaking of which…

Egypt ‘worst for women’ out of 22 countries in Arab world

The study found sexual harassment, high rates of female genital mutilation and a growth in conservative Islamist groups contributed to the low ranking.
…
The poll surveyed more than 330 gender experts in 21 Arab League states as well as Syria.
…
Iraq ranked second-worst after Egypt, followed by Saudi Arabia, Syria and Yemen.

163 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:41:47am

HURR HURR

And how are we going to pay for that “top notch military” Rand? MOAR TAX BREAKS FOR THE 1%?

164 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:41:52am


Oops. :D

165 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:42:44am

“Until you come back home and you’re homeless and you need food stamps, then fuck you!”

166 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:43:30am

And one more.

167 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:43:57am

re: #163 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

And how are we going to pay for that “top notch military” Rand? MOAR TAX BREAKS FOR THE 1%?

Institute an old British army practice and also the purchase of commissions! Let the 1% pay for rank.

///

168 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:45:51am

OK, one more one more.

169 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:46:57am

re: #155 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

170 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:47:38am

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

I saw that study, but I question its validity. its use of the idea ‘symbolic racism’ seems to me a likely producer of inaccuracies., and leaves it open to criticism.

Symbolic racism exists and can be tested for. Some very ingenious tests have been devised and verified to expose underlying subconscious attitudes.

If this study uses poorly designed procedures or the wrong statistical analysis or comes to the wrong conclusion somebody will publish a countering review.

171 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:47:39am

re: #165 Vicious Babushka

“Until you come back home and you’re homeless and you need food stamps, then fuck you!”

[Embedded content]

Or treatment for PTSD. Man up, you pussy!

172 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:47:54am

re: #168 Gus

OK, one more one more.

[Embedded content]

Good stuff, Gus.

173 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:47:59am

re: #155 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

I say not one penny more to any nation that burns our flag.

And when i say ‘our’, I mean ‘Confederate’… y’all.

174 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:48:04am

re: #163 Vicious Babushka

None would dare challenge us?

Rand’s living in fantasy world if he thinks that none dare challenge us. Heck, the Taliban did, and we’re winding down operations there without having eliminated their existence (though we’ve dealt them some serious blows and have taken out some of their top leaders over the years).

Russia and China are economic rivals, and are less likely to be military threats due to the global interdependence.

But how does he pay for the military he thinks we need?

The New USS Gerald Ford costs $12b - and that doesn’t include the air wing and personnel to keep her going. It will be potentially cheaper to operate than the Nimitz class because it uses fewer personnel to do the same job, but it’s doing more with less.

Can’t wait for him to demand new tanks or spending on upgrading the Abrams when the Army doesn’t want it (because of Kentucky’s historical links to Army armored units, including the old training center at Fort Knox).

175 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:49:02am

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Good stuff, Gus.

Thanks. Last Tweet was from a Kossack so you know. :D As for HuffPo? Bleh.

176 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:49:47am

re: #174 lawhawk

He likes the military because it represents the sort of government power and control that he approves of. And has guns and stuff that goes BOOOM!, looks cool and scares people when it rumbles or whooshes by.

177 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:51:21am

re: #176 Sol Berdinowitz

He likes the military because it represents the sort of government power and control that he approves of. And has guns and stuff that goes BOOOM!, looks cool and scares people when it rumbles or whooshes by.

Yeah but, somebody’s gotta pay for it. These armies don’t feed themselves! Does he expect them to just steal food and stuff from the brown people they’re subjugating?

178 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:52:13am
179 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:52:33am

re: #163 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

And how are we going to pay for that “top notch military” Rand? MOAR TAX BREAKS FOR THE 1%?

Because the US is the most fearful nation? It wants to bully other nations? It doesn’t know how to negotiate? Everybody hates the US because it’s the most beautiful?

180 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:53:52am

re: #176 Sol Berdinowitz

He likes the military because it represents the sort of government power and control that he approves of. And has guns and stuff that goes BOOOM!, looks cool and scares people when it rumbles or whooshes by.

And national defense is one of the government tasks that libertarian/Randism approves of.

181 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:54:22am

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

The thing about that Politico story is that Candidate Elizabeth Warren could be quite a good thing for the Republican Party. She’d be a close enough match to Hillary Clinton to make for a relatively long, draining primary and might cause the candidates to have to veer left to attract primary voters. Whoever ultimately won would be short on cash till after the convention, and might have trouble tacking back to the center.

This would more a leveler than a situation where a still-flush Republican could unload on a broke Democrat over the summer, since the GOP primary will also likely be a drawn-out affair. However, The fear of Warren would also convince Wall Street to back the Republicans more firmly. And that money might prove a critical edge.

The problem with the belief it would be a long, draining primary is that this is the Democrats, not the Republicans. Remember the last time the Democrats had a long primary? It was Clinton and Obama. Didn’t work out so well for McCain as I recall.

See, the thing is that not only were the two substantially on the same page but it turned out they were also in tune with the majority of American voters. The end result, actually, was that more Democrats in more states maintained an interest in the elections for a much longer time.

Contrast that with the Republicans of 2008, where Romney ran across ABR (anybody but Romney). The two competing pages there were the rich vs the tea party. The disgust of each with the other probably led to a slight shortfall in total Republican votes.

With these in mind let’s stack the potential for 2016. On the Democratic side we’ve got Clinton v Warren, who agree on the broad brush and differ only in degree. On the other we’ve got the various tea party candidates, also agreeing on the broad brush and differing solely in degree,

So what we’re going to get with a long primary is clearer awareness that it’s two choices, two distinct platforms. And again using 2004 as a guide we have to note that a long primary is itself a general campaign when in the end it’s platform against platform. That means money spent in the primary isn’t really lost for the general.

All that’s moot, of course, since afaik Warren isn’t planning to run. That line’s something kicked out by people wanting an ‘exciting’ primary. You can look at the usual suspects for that, the ones who need exciting news to keep happening and so keep kicking out these possibilities.

182 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:55:02am

Mental health break! An epic battle for the ages:

Youtube Video

183 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:55:04am

re: #163 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

And how are we going to pay for that “top notch military” Rand? MOAR TAX BREAKS FOR THE 1%?

Won’t dare to attack us? Perhaps you slept through September 11, 2001?

184 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:55:15am

re: #176 Sol Berdinowitz

He likes the military because it represents the sort of government power and control that he approves of. And has guns and stuff that goes BOOOM!, looks cool and scares people when it rumbles or whooshes by.

He wants all the tanks and helicopters to sport Truck Balls.

185 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:57:04am

Rural Colorado Counties Vote to Secede as 51st State Because They Apparently Don’t Like Math

Headline writing is a real talent!

186 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:57:53am

speaking of headlines:

Even Right-Wingers Become Liberals When They Turn Off Fox News

In short, the American people were in some sense schizoid — opposed to big government in principle, but even more supportive of it in practice. Most strikingly, almost one-quarter of the population — 23 percent — were both ideological conservatives and operational liberals, and this figure skyrocketed to 46 percent in the Deep South states that Goldwater carried in the 1964 election

.

187 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:58:48am

re: #183 kirkspencer

Won’t dare to attack us? Perhaps you slept through September 11, 2001?

HURR HURR! 9/11 WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED IF AIRPLANES WEREN’T GUN FREE ZONES!!!!11!!!!!

188 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:00:06am

re: #185 FemNaziBitch

Rural Colorado Counties Vote to Secede as 51st State Because They Apparently Don’t Like Math

Headline writing is a real talent!

Hmm. That’s weird. Usually it’s the other way around. //

189 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:00:38am

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Rand Paul is full of shit anyway. He’s pulling out all this rah-rah NO MONEY FOR FLAG BURNERS when he’s no different from his father and he’d get rid of all foreign aid everywhere if he could.

This speech of his is just pre-2016 dick waving to make himself look like a tough guy.

190 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:01:53am
My 81-year-old mother, Barbara Parramore, is a former Sunday school teacher who served in North Carolina’s public education system for half a century as a teacher, elementary school principal, and professor of education at N.C. State University. She is the author of many books for young learners, like the Children’s Dictionary of Occupations (a subversive tract if there ever was one).

Since her retirement, Mom has been engaged in such radical activities as raising money for a 4-H museum, volunteering with the Carolina Ballet, and sharing her modest savings with her alma mater to set up a scholarship.

According to North Carolina police, she is a suspected anarchist. For real.

191 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:04:18am

re: #174 lawhawk

None would dare challenge us?

Rand’s living in fantasy world if he thinks that none dare challenge us. Heck, the Taliban did, and we’re winding down operations there without having eliminated their existence (though we’ve dealt them some serious blows and have taken out some of their top leaders over the years).

Russia and China are economic rivals, and are less likely to be military threats due to the global interdependence.

But how does he pay for the military he thinks we need?

The New USS Gerald Ford costs $12b - and that doesn’t include the air wing and personnel to keep her going. It will be potentially cheaper to operate than the Nimitz class because it uses fewer personnel to do the same job, but it’s doing more with less.

Can’t wait for him to demand new tanks or spending on upgrading the Abrams when the Army doesn’t want it (because of Kentucky’s historical links to Army armored units, including the old training center at Fort Knox).

The Army wants upgraded M1s, they just didn’t want to be running the factory between upgrades. But it looks like Congress is going to overrule the generals on that point, because said factory is in John Boehner’s district. The administration has made its displease with that situation clear, but they aren’t going go to the mat over it. So the dollars will come from somewhere else, though the Speaker does have a point about the need to retain workers with specialized training.

192 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:05:31am

speaking of the topic of the thread —

I have no idea how actuarial math was devised (I have yet to read any novel about by Neal Stephenson).

Anyway, I don’t want to know. I do understand that the more participants in the plan, the larger the cash pool and therefore, the lower the risk to each participant.

Is this what the article states?

193 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:07:39am
194 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:08:54am

He goes around all day long muttering to himself “The FUCK was I thinking??”

195 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:09:52am

re: #193 Gus

[Embedded content]

They’re cute now, but they’ll grow up to be big enough to eat a person.

196 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:09:52am

“I had a hot girlfriend, a $62/hr job, sweet digs in Hawaii and I threw it all away FOR WHAT!!!”

197 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:10:23am

And then he screams and screams FUCK YOU GLENN GREENWALD!!!!!!!!

198 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:10:25am

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

They’re cute now, but they’ll grow up to be big enough to eat a person.

That’ll be awesome! //

199 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:11:06am

I waaaannnnntt a mastiff!

200 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:12:15am

re: #199 FemNaziBitch

I waaaannnnntt a mastiff!

Link bumped back to the Parramore article.

201 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:12:18am

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

The Army wants upgraded M1s, they just didn’t want to be running the factory between upgrades. But it looks like Congress is going to overrule the generals on that point, because said factory is in John Boehner’s district. The administration has made its displease with that situation clear, but they aren’t going go to the mat over it. So the dollars will come from somewhere else, though the Speaker does have a point about the need to retain workers with specialized training.

Via what is essentially government welfare.

202 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:12:50am

re: #199 FemNaziBitch

I waaaannnnntt a mastiff!

No, you don’t. At least not the big ones, because they often have hip problems at a relatively young age.

203 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:12:53am
204 William of Orange  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:13:17am
205 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:13:47am

upworthy.com

206 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:14:13am

re: #204 William of Orange

[Embedded content]

As much weird as one bike can hold!

207 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:14:20am

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

No, you don’t. At least not the big ones, because they often have hip problems at a relatively young age.

I will find a good breeder and research things extensively. It usually takes me years to get the pup I want.

208 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:14:39am

Derp.

209 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:15:38am

re: #200 Decatur Deb

Link bumped back to the Parramore article.

i waaaaanntt a Mastiff! retry

210 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:16:23am

re: #208 Gus

Derp.

It has begun…

No matter how negotiations with Iran go, the conspiracists were sure to be out in full force.

211 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:17:27am

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

They’re cute now, but they’ll grow up to be big enough to eat a person.

Only if they are hungry. I can’t fear an animal because it could be a threat. I won’t poke a stick at it either.

212 Stoatly  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:19:56am

re: #204 William of Orange

They may be Daft, but I see the Punk aren’t stupid enough to let Ron do the steering with all those canals around….

213 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:20:08am

re: #204 William of Orange

[Embedded content]

I get this:

Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!

:(

214 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:20:12am

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

It has begun…

No matter how negotiations with Iran go, the conspiracists were sure to be out in full force.

Blame Israel first. Bottom line is that Iran still wants nukes.

215 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:20:43am

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

Money to modernize the M1 is being cannibalized from the funds that would go to the new tank that the Army does want - a lighter and more mobile version that can do much of what the Abrams does but has a lighter footprint.

That’s robbing Peter to pay Paul, and it undermines the Army’s long term goals of modernizing the military systems.

I get the need to preserve industrial capacity and manpower/institutional knowledge to build heavy industry, but they need to get a new tank design going that deals with the kinds of threats the US may face going forward, and it isn’t going to be Warsaw Pact armies standing across the Fulda (the mission for which the Abrams was originally designed to address).

It’s also rather funny watching Republicans use traditionally Democratic party lines to keep the Abrams going - that the government spending keeps people off unemployment, has economic benefits to the community in excess of the money spent, etc.

216 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:21:31am

re: #214 Gus

Blame Israel first. Bottom line is that Iran still wants nukes.

Proof?

217 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:21:41am

ah! The Gun Nut’s were posing for a picture.

I feel so much better —wait, why were they there in the first place? Why were they having their picture taken?

Possibly as proof they were at the protest?

218 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:21:51am

Huh. Works for me in Preview.

219 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:22:21am

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

No, you don’t. At least not the big ones, because they often have hip problems at a relatively young age.

A friend of mine had a mastiff, and like you said, it began having hip problems while it was still fairly young.

Me……I like miniature schnauzers.

Image: mini-schnauzer-kloee.jpg

220 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:22:24am

re: #204 William of Orange

[Embedded content]

NOW it works! I reloaded the page here.

221 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:22:30am

re: #217 FemNaziBitch

ah! The Gun Nut’s were posing for a picture.

I feel so much better —wait, why were they there in the first place? Why were they having their picture taken?

Possibly as proof they were at the protest?

222 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:25:28am

Accidental-isms?

I don’t know what I think about this.

223 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:27:02am
224 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:27:23am

re: #216 kirkspencer

Proof?

I should expand this. Every time I’ve dug into it I find that the evidence Iran wants nukes is lacking. It keeps returning to the same people who keep mis-stating the evidence; exaggeration and outright lying about what’s there.

It has reached the point that I react to the “Iran wants nukes” with scorn and derision. No, I don’t want to live there. No, I think it needs major improvements. But I refuse to tolerate that which seems to repeat the claims against Iraq back in the late 1990s and (especially) early 2000s before we invaded.

225 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:27:40am

re: #216 kirkspencer

Proof?

voanews.com
aljazeera.com

226 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:28:52am

re: #225 Gus

voanews.com
aljazeera.com

Nuclear fuel for powerplants is not nuclear weaponry.

227 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:29:30am

re: #226 kirkspencer

Nuclear fuel for powerplants is not nuclear weaponry.

I’m not going to debate this with you.

228 Gus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:29:36am

Bye.

229 Stoatly  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:32:02am

re: #131 lawhawk

Oh, and that’s still about 1,000 feet shorter than the world’s tallest building, the Burj Khalifa in Dubai (2,717 feet).

Last week I found myself staring at the Burj Khalifa from the window of an A380 - I had a momentary “woah, I’m living in the future” buzz

(the fact that Emirates does good Bloody Marys probably helped….)

230 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:34:55am

re: #217 FemNaziBitch

ah! The Gun Nut’s were posing for a picture.

I feel so much better —wait, why were they there in the first place? Why were they having their picture taken?

Possibly as proof they were at the protest?

The photo was part of their counter-protest. It’s being publicized because seen from the side going on one knee like that looks like preparation to open fire, but in this case it was not. The Bloombergers used the side photo, though, to further their own propaganda. Same as calling themselves ‘responsible’, thus implying that those who disagree with them are not responsible.

231 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:41:48am

re: #227 Gus

I’m not going to debate this with you.

It’s too bad. You might learn that Iran keeps turning its enriched uranium into Uranium DiOxide pellets. You might learn that this conversion is extremely difficult to undo and indeed essentially removes the uranium from the weaponization path.

You might learn that ISIS, and particularly its founder/leader David Albright, is simultaneously the most frequent source of claims of Iran’s weaponry and has been demonstrated to repetitively selectively quote and outright lie about capabilities and situations made in reports from investigative bodies.

But if you won’t debate, that’s fine. I’ll just lay those statements out in the hope you’ll read them anyway so you understand why I find it all to be echoing the march to 2003 Iraq.

232 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:42:04am

Issa Lied?

No, Say it ain’t so …

/

233 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:43:55am

HURR HURR TROOF!!!!1!!1!1!

234 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:44:01am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

The photo was part of their counter-protest. It’s being publicized because seen from the side going on one knee like that looks like preparation to open fire, but in this case it was not. The Bloombergers used the side photo, though, to further their own propaganda. Same as calling themselves ‘responsible’, thus implying that those who disagree with them are not responsible.

It’s bullshit. Regardless of the angle of the photo shown. A group of armed people gathered together for the purpose of intimidation is just that.

It was a bunch of men telling a bunch of women they will use force against them if they don’t get what they want.

And people wonder why I am FemNaziBitch.

235 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:45:06am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

The photo was part of their counter-protest. It’s being publicized because seen from the side going on one knee like that looks like preparation to open fire, but in this case it was not. The Bloombergers used the side photo, though, to further their own propaganda. Same as calling themselves ‘responsible’, thus implying that those who disagree with them are not responsible.

So a group of armed men show up outside a meeting of women who are discussing gun control and it’s not really a threat?

236 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:46:32am

MOAR DERP
Shouldn’t this be a GAY wedding? Because we all know that Obamacare will force everyone to Gay-marry an illegal alien.

237 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:46:59am

re: #235 kirkspencer

So a group of armed men show up outside a meeting of women who are discussing gun control and it’s not really a threat?

Only if you look at them sideways.

238 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:47:38am

HURR HURR IT TEH TROOF U POOPYHEAD COMMUNISTS!!!!11!!!!1

239 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:48:55am

I’ve come up with a proposal for the White House to consider, in response to all the whining about “lost” insurance polices. I propose that the White House immediately declare it will put forth legislation that will allow the federal government to seize all private insurance companies and freeze all existing policies and reinstate “grandfathered” ones.

When people (predictably) lose their shit over the idea of the federal government nationalizing insurance, ask them which they’d prefer: Keeping their insurance as-is, forcing the insurance companies to maintaining policies that will eventually start costing them money, OR just junk the grandfather plan regulations and let the insurance companies continue digging deeper into their customer’s pockets for plans that are utter shit.

240 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:49:08am

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

DERP
Tell us about all their load testing.

[Embedded content]

I would love to see their tie-in’s to the IRS database and the other governmental databases being connected to healthcare.gov

I bet the IRS would love to see it, too. :-)

241 Flying Squirrel Girl  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:49:39am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

I didn’t think the side photo looked like they were ready to open fire. I thought it looked like a bunch of armed men gathered to intimidate a group of women who hold different views.

242 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:51:53am

Oh, wait, I get it.

It’s not intimidation it’s STAND YOUR GROUND.

Like Marital Rape isn’t Rape, it’s God’s Will?

243 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:52:01am

re: #124 Lidane

< Right Wing Watch @RightWingWatch
Follow

Is Obama in a Satanic cult with Beyonce? @ErikRush has the scoop: bit.ly

No, Obama is BATBOY! Just look at his ears for goodness sake!

244 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:53:03am

re: #243 Joanne

< Right Wing Watch @RightWingWatch
Follow

Is Obama in a Satanic cult with Beyonce? @ErikRush has the scoop: bit.ly

No, Obama is BATBOY! Just look at his ears for goodness sake!

It’s just human nature, they will enslave us if we don’t enslave them first

245 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:53:44am

re: #136 Vicious Babushka

DERP DERP HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

Yeah, that’s going to work.

246 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:55:11am

re: #235 kirkspencer

So a group of armed men show up outside a meeting of women who are discussing gun control and it’s not really a threat?

Not in my eyes, though I admit I see things differently than said women do. This particular bunch of Texans carries firearms at protests and counter-protests. They do not actually use those firearms at said events nor have they threatened to do so.

In this case, an openly armed counter-protest was a mistake in my opinion. It got attention but it also allowed the Bloombergers to cry out “I’m SCARED!”. The gun owners did understand how the visuals they generating might appear to people who see things differently than they do.

247 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:56:04am

re: #239 Targetpractice

I’ve come up with a proposal for the White House to consider, in response to all the whining about “lost” insurance polices. I propose that the White House immediately declare it will put forth legislation that will allow the federal government to seize all private insurance companies and freeze all existing policies and reinstate “grandfathered” ones.

When people (predictably) lose their shit over the idea of the federal government nationalizing insurance, ask them which they’d prefer: Keeping their insurance >as-is, forcing the insurance companies to maintaining policies that will eventually start costing them money, OR just junk the grandfather plan regulations and let the insurance companies continue digging deeper into their customer’s pockets for plans that are utter shit.

Nationalizing Health Insurance —sure that’s a great way to incite the conservatives and other paranoids.

248 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:56:15am

re: #241 Flying Squirrel Girl

I didn’t think the side photo looked like they were ready to open fire. I thought it looked like a bunch of armed men gathered to intimidate a group of women who hold different views.

Well at least there wasn’t a black guy with a cane outside a voting establishment opening doors for old ladies, That is fucking intimidating.

// kinda

249 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:57:04am

re: #246 Dark_Falcon

Not in my eyes, though I admit I see things differently than said women do. This particular bunch of Texans carries firearms at protests and counter-protests. They do not actually use those firearms at said events nor have they threatened to do so.

In this case, an openly armed counter-protest was a mistake in my opinion. It got attention but it also allowed the Bloombergers to cry out “I’m SCARED!”. The gun owners did understand how the visuals they generating might appear to people who see things differently than they do.

Were the firearms loaded?

250 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:57:35am

re: #246 Dark_Falcon

Not in my eyes, though I admit I see things differently than said women do. This particular bunch of Texans carries firearms at protests and counter-protests. They do not actually use those firearms at said events nor have they threatened to do so.

In this case, an openly armed counter-protest was a mistake in my opinion. It got attention but it also allowed the Bloombergers to cry out “I’m SCARED!”. The gun owners did understand how the visuals they generating might appear to people who see things differently than they do.

You don’t have to fire a weapon to ‘use’ it. Carrying it can be seen as a threat. Depends on the context and on the observer, as well as the carrier.

251 Stoatly  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 9:58:32am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

They threatened them with guns - open carry is at its basic level a territorial pissing saying “this is our space, not yours”

Why did Starbucks seek to dissuade open carry nutters meeting in its stores - even though they knew there would be a backlash?
Because they were losing custom - the normal customers began to avoid Starbucks because they felt threatened

252 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:00:20am

re: #0 Larry A. Herzberg

Nice post here, and the next two on your blog are also very enjoyable. (That’s as far as I got.)

253 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:00:52am

HURR HURR
This totally NOT an “actual Obamacare ad” it looks like some lame wingnut Photoshop

254 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:01:07am

re: #249 FemNaziBitch

Were the firearms loaded?

I do not know, but I’d guess they had rounds in the magazine but not in the chamber. Those holding them did have their fingers well away from the trigger in most cases and outside the trigger guard in all cases.

255 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:01:54am

re: #247 FemNaziBitch

Nationalizing Health Insurance —sure that’s a great way to incite the conservatives and other paranoids.

At this point, I’m about at my wits end, trying to explain how the federal government has no control over whether or not insurance providers cancel plans that are unprofitable. “He promised I could keep my policy!” ARGH!

256 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:02:23am

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

I do not know, but I’d guess they had rounds in the magazine but not in the chamber. Those holding them did have their fingers well away from the trigger in most cases and outside the trigger guard in all cases.

I would like to know for my own reasons, yet the point is moot.

THE GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED.

257 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:03:11am

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR
This totally NOT an “actual Obamacare ad” it looks like some lame wingnut Photoshop

[Embedded content]

Even if it was, so what? Am I supposed to clutch my pearls over something more tame than prime-time TV?

258 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:03:23am

re: #255 Targetpractice

At this point, I’m about at my wits end, trying to explain how the federal government has no control over whether or not insurance providers cancel plans that are unprofitable. “He promised I could keep my policy!” ARGH!

Yeah, he said the government would not force private insurers to cancel their policies.

Doesn’t translate well for those short on brain cells.

259 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:03:28am

Stockman gets pwn3d by another Fake Ad.

260 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:07:33am

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR
This totally NOT an “actual Obamacare ad” it looks like some lame wingnut Photoshop

[Embedded content]

Looks like a close-copy hashtag. OTOH, perhaps it should be an ad, as long as they spell ‘Obamacare’ correctly.

261 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:07:37am

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR
This totally NOT an “actual Obamacare ad” it looks like some lame wingnut Photoshop

[Embedded content]

The wingnuts that created the fake are just jealous because they’re dickless.

“Is this true?”

Yes, it’s true. … This wingnut has no dick.”

262 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:07:42am

re: #234 FemNaziBitch

It’s bullshit. Regardless of the angle of the photo shown. A group of armed people gathered together for the purpose of intimidation is just that.

It was a bunch of men telling a bunch of women they will use force against them if they don’t get what they want.

And people wonder why I am FemNaziBitch.

I am getting more and more pissed about this. The Communication Disconnect is amazing to me.

Is it really that difficult to fathom?

263 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:08:50am

re: #257 Targetpractice

Even if it was, so what? Am I supposed to clutch my pearls over something more tame than prime-time TV?

An actual ad would not be so stupid. HURR HURR!! OBAMACARE GIVES U FREE BIRTH CONTROL NOW U CAN HAZ TEH SEXYTIMES!!!!!11!!!

264 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:09:18am

re: #250 wrenchwench

You don’t have to fire a weapon to ‘use’ it. Carrying it can be seen as a threat. Depends on the context and on the observer, as well as the carrier.

Well, it’s not called “assault with a deadly weapon” for no reason when crimes against persons are committed with a gun. Guns are seen under the law as deadly weapons. And yes, I think the mere fact that a gang of people were toting firearms in a suggestively offensive manner was threatening. Any reasonable person would feel threatened. The only exception would be if an individual was wearing a law enforcement uniform w/his or her weapon holstered, but a civilian with a gun is seen quite differently.

thelawdictionary.org

265 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:11:08am

re: #246 Dark_Falcon

The gun owners did understand how the visuals they generating might appear to people who see things differently than they do.

Bullshit. They understood perfectly how it would look.

40+ armed douchebags to confront 4 unarmed women who dared to talk about reasonable gun laws? They’re bullies. Full stop.

266 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:11:16am

re: #264 Justanotherhuman

Well, it’s not called “assault with a deadly weapon” for no reason when crimes against persons are committed with a gun. Guns are seen under the law as deadly weapons. And yes, I think the mere fact that a gang of people were toting firearms in a suggestively offensive manner was threatening. Any reasonable person would feel threatened. The only exception would be if an individual was wearing a law enforcement uniform w/his or her weapon holstered, but a civilian with a gun is seen quite differently.

thelawdictionary.org

They were white men. White men with guns are not threatening to other white men-only all women. And you-know, why should we think about them?

They vote.

267 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:11:48am

re: #263 Vicious Babushka

An actual ad would not be so stupid. HURR HURR!! OBAMACARE GIVES U FREE BIRTH CONTROL NOW U CAN HAZ TEH SEXYTIMES!!!!!11!!!

Its a way of saying “Obamacare is favored by sluts!!!11” without actually saying that. Actually saying it didn’t work so well for Rush Limbaugh, so now you have some wingnuts going with a “say it but don’t say it” approach.

268 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:12:00am

re: #246 Dark_Falcon

Not in my eyes, though I admit I see things differently than said women do. This particular bunch of Texans carries firearms at protests and counter-protests. They do not actually use those firearms at said events nor have they threatened to do so.

In this case, an openly armed counter-protest was a mistake in my opinion. It got attention but it also allowed the Bloombergers to cry out “I’m SCARED!”. The gun owners did understand how the visuals they generating might appear to people who see things differently than they do.

Dark, it wasn’t a counter-protest. The women weren’t holding a protest, they were holding a planning meeting.

Think about that. Seriously. You’re holding a meeting to plan actions, and openly armed people who hold the opposite position show up outside your meeting.

269 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:12:46am

re: #268 kirkspencer

Dark, it wasn’t a counter-protest. The women weren’t holding a protest, they were holding a planning meeting.

Think about that. Seriously. You’re holding a meeting to plan actions, and openly armed people who hold the opposite position show up outside your meeting.

freedom to assemble?

That’s part of the Constitution—right?

Weren’t similar tactics used during the Jim Crow Era? IiRC, before the War, slaves had their church meetings prohibited-so they came up with the “negro spiritual” songs as a form of communication.

270 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:13:06am

re: #260 Decatur Deb

Looks like a close-copy hashtag. OTOH, perhaps it should be an ad, as long as they spell ‘Obamacare’ correctly.

The link leads to a real website, as far as I can tell. Colorado’s.

271 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:13:16am

re: #268 kirkspencer

Think about that. Seriously. You’re holding a meeting to plan actions, and openly armed people who hold the opposite position show up outside your meeting.

EXACTLY.

The purpose that these armed assholes had was to intimidate and threaten four unarmed women who met to talk about reasonable gun laws. Fuck those guys.

272 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:13:57am

re: #265 Lidane

Bullshit. They understood perfectly how it would look.

40+ armed douchebags to confront 4 unarmed women who dared to talk about reasonable gun laws? They’re bullies. Full stop.

The only word that comes to mind is ‘menacing.’

And Dark - you seriously don’t see how a bunch of guys with guns showing up at a gun control rally is intimidating? Really?

273 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:14:44am

re: #270 wrenchwench

The link leads to a real website, as far as I can tell. Colorado’s.

Why .com instead of .gov or .org?

274 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:16:03am

HURR HURR
FAKE QUOTE IS TEH TROOF!!!11!!!!! U COMMUNIST.

275 EmmaAnne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:16:34am

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR
This totally NOT an “actual Obamacare ad” it looks like some lame wingnut Photoshop

[Embedded content]

Well, I am pleased to hear this piece isn’t an actual Obamacare ad, since it is smarmy and borderline slut-shaming. But even with the smarm, I don’t think it is going to get the reaction against Obamacare its authors are hoping for. Free birth control is just not that threatening to the twenty-somethings.

276 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:17:20am

re: #266 FemNaziBitch

They were white men. White men with guns are not threatening to other white men-only all women. And you-know, why should we think about them?

If anyone cared, like LE, those gun toters would have been arrested for unlawful assembly and brandishing a weapon.

I’m impressed, though, that approx 40 men were intimidated by 4 women having lunch.

277 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:17:20am

Nah, I’m not going to sit here and defend those Texans. Showing up with those guns wasn’t smart. It was a clueless act that handed the Bloombergers a propaganda victory. Truly worthy of a Tactical Facepalm.

278 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:18:49am

Because birth-control removes the stigma proof that girl/woman was having sex. If we don’t have a baby bump how can we tell who is going to hell and who is not?

279 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:19:15am

re: #273 Decatur Deb

Why .com instead of .gov or .org?

Plus, they are stealing the Got Milk advertising scheme, which would be copyrighted. Additionaly, it should be “Do you have insurance?”

I don’t think its legit.

280 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:19:33am

re: #276 Justanotherhuman

If anyone cared, like LE, those gun toters would have been arrested for unlawful assembly and brandishing a weapon.

I’m impressed, though, that approx 40 men were intimidated by 4 women having lunch.

Yep, penis issues.

281 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:20:57am

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Nah, I’m not going to sit here and defend those Texans. Showing up with those guns wasn’t smart. It was a clueless act that handed the Bloombergers a propaganda victory. Truly worthy of a Tactical Facepalm.

I don’t expect you to defend them. I would appreciate if you would try to understand the point of view of those who were outraged.

Why, because Zealots of this type are a danger to all of us. Regardless of their flavor or geographical location.

282 Flying Squirrel Girl  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:21:29am

re: #279 Kragar

Wouldn’t a real ad call it by it’s real name and not use Obamacare?

283 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:21:41am

re: #272 makeitstop

The only word that comes to mind is ‘menacing.’

And Dark - you seriously don’t see how a bunch of guys with guns showing up at a gun control rally is intimidating? Really?

I’m going to repeat this a lot.

It was NOT A RALLY. It wasn’t a protest. It wasn’t a public statement.

It was a planning meeting.

284 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:22:31am

re: #282 Flying Squirrel Girl

Wouldn’t a real ad call it by it’s real name and not use Obamacare?

One would think so.

285 EmmaAnne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:22:58am

re: #270 wrenchwench

The link leads to a real website, as far as I can tell. Colorado’s.

This is Colorado’s exchange website. Considerably more restrained.

connectforhealthco.com

286 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:23:34am

re: #273 Decatur Deb

Why .com instead of .gov or .org?

I think not…

Domain Name: HTTP.COM
Registrar URL: godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2013-05-19 20:31:52
Creation Date: 1995-02-01 00:00:00
Registrar Expiration Date: 2020-02-02 00:00:00
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Domain Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Domain Status: clientRenewProhibited
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Registrant Name: Registration Private
Registrant Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Registrant Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Registrant Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Registrant City: Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province: Arizona
Registrant Postal Code: 85260
Registrant Country: United States
Admin Name: Registration Private
Admin Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Admin Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Admin Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Admin City: Scottsdale
Admin State/Province: Arizona
Admin Postal Code: 85260
Admin Country: United States
Admin Phone:[no phone numbers allowed]
Admin Fax:[no phone numbers allowed]
Admin Email: HTTP.COM@domainsbyproxy.com
Tech Name: Registration Private
Tech Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Tech Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Tech Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Tech City: Scottsdale
Tech State/Province: Arizona
Tech Postal Code: 85260
Tech Country: United States
Tech Phone:[no phone numbers allowed]
Tech Fax:[no phone numbers allowed]
Tech Email: HTTP.COM@domainsbyproxy.com
Name Server: NS1.DSREDIRECTION.COM
Name Server: NS2.DSREDIRECTION.COM

287 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:23:36am

THE QUOTE ITSELF IS SO FULL OF TRUTHY TRUTH THAT EVEN IF JEFFERSON NEVER SAID IT, HE MUST HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT!!!111!!!! CAN U PROVE HE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT??? UR A COMMUNIST.

288 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:24:10am

If it were 4 black people in the 1960’s having lunch and planning their next Civil Rights March —and a group of armed men gathered outside —

then, would it be understandable as a threat?

289 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:24:12am

re: #283 kirkspencer

I’m going to repeat this a lot.

It was NOT A RALLY. It wasn’t a protest. It wasn’t a public statement.

It was a planning meeting.

I stand corrected. But the fact that it was just a meeting makes the gun nuts look even more crazy.

290 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:24:45am

OK, that’s enough Twitter for today. I googled a name I saw in a tweet and eventually ended up reading some Postmodernist bullshit that was like an infinitely-repeating, self-referential Mandelbrot fractal pattern of verbal wankery, and by mechanisms I still don’t fully understand (possibly because the necessary brain functions were overwhelmed or damaged and shut down) I somehow ended up reading still more tangentially related bullshit on Conservapedia of all places. I’m now much dumber than I was before I started, which is precisely the opposite of the outcome I was anticipating.

291 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:25:03am

re: #275 EmmaAnne

Well, I am pleased to hear this piece isn’t an actual Obamacare ad, since it is smarmy and borderline slut-shaming. But even with the smarm, I don’t think it is going to get the reaction against Obamacare its authors are hoping for. Free birth control is just not that threatening to the twenty-somethings.

Not free either. Just covered under their insurance policy much as any other medical-related things would be.

292 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:25:33am

re: #288 FemNaziBitch

If it were 4 black people in the 1960’s having lunch and planning their next Civil Rights March —and a group of armed men gathered outside —

then, would it be understandable as a threat?

It would be concerned citizens keeping a violent protest from being organized!!

293 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:25:42am

bbl

294 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:26:09am

re: #286 Joanne

So a spoof done so badly it’s a self-goal.

295 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:26:13am

Now Fake Ad is viral.

296 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:26:32am

re: #280 FemNaziBitch

Yep, penis issues.

Didn’t South Park cover that last night?*

* - I rarely watch it since I often find the level of humor mixed. But I do recall some woman screaming because a penis was running loose in the kitchen.

297 b.d.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:27:12am

2 BLACK PANTHERS STANDING OUTSIDE WITH STICKS ARE A THREAT. 20 WHITE GUYS WITH RIFLES STANDING OUTSIDE ARE NOT A THREAT!!1!!

298 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:27:13am

re: #296 Feline Fearless Leader

Didn’t South Park cover that last night?*

* - I rarely watch it since I often find the level of humor mixed. But I do recall some woman screaming because a penis was running loose in the kitchen.

South Park is on Wednesday night, not Monday night.

Unless you’re in Canada?//

299 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:27:49am

re: #288 FemNaziBitch

If it were 4 black people in the 1960’s having lunch and planning their next Civil Rights March —and a group of armed men gathered outside —

then, would it be understandable as a threat?

Yes, but there was also a violent history of by such crowds and actual violent acts by same were occurring.

These sort of open carry events are not the same thing. None of them have turned violent, and unlike the racist Southern crowds of the not-too-distant past, the group in this case did not throw slurs or make threats.

So while I take your point, it is not really the same thing.

300 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:28:15am

re: #295 Vicious Babushka

Now Fake Ad is viral.

[Embedded content]

“It’s SATIRE.”

301 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:28:16am

re: #286 Joanne

Interesting.

302 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:28:25am

re: #290 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

OK, that’s enough Twitter for today. I googled a name I saw in a tweet and eventually ended up reading some Postmodernist bullshit that was like an infinitely-repeating, self-referential Mandelbrot fractal pattern of verbal wankery, and by mechanisms I still don’t fully understand (possibly because the necessary brain functions were overwhelmed or damaged and shut down) I somehow ended up reading still more tangentially related bullshit on Conservapedia of all places. I’m now much dumber than I was before I started, which is precisely the opposite of the outcome I was anticipating.

You are now expected to vote for Sarah Palin. If she opts to not run for public office you will vote for Ted Cruz, but send your money to Sarah in any case.
////

303 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:28:55am

Now Dim Jim & Teh Twitchies are reTweeting the Fake Ad.
GAH.

304 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:29:51am

re: #303 Vicious Babushka

Now Dim Jim & Teh Twitchies are reTweeting the Fake Ad.
GAH.

By tomorrow, the House will be calling for hearings into these fakes ads.

305 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:30:23am

re: #298 Vicious Babushka

South Park is on Wednesday night, not Monday night.

Unless you’re in Canada?//

Must have been a re-run then. Was on after Futurama episode and before the Daily Show on Comedy Central. Was reading stuff and also bouncing over to MNF as well. Plus I’m currently in Central time as compared to Eastern Time and everything is on at a different time than I am used to.

I do not blame Obama.
;)

306 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:31:13am

re: #289 makeitstop

I stand corrected. But the fact that it was just a meeting makes the gun nuts look even more crazy.

exactly.

If it were a rally DF’s ‘stupid PR’ label would be sorta tolerable. But a planning meeting? No. No defense. “These people are planning to oppose us. Let us show them what they face.”

307 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:31:33am

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Nah, I’m not going to sit here and defend those Texans. Showing up with those guns wasn’t smart. It was a clueless act that handed the Bloombergers a propaganda victory. Truly worthy of a Tactical Facepalm.

You keep thinking they were clueless. They weren’t. Those guys knew damn well what they were doing and why.

It was a blatant attempt at bullying and intimidation. Period.

308 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:31:43am

re: #259 Vicious Babushka

Stockman gets pwn3d by another Fake Ad.

[Embedded content]

This isn’t a fake ad, but’s it’s put up and funded by 2 non-profit Colorado organizations with no official link to the ACA.

309 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:32:44am

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but there was also a violent history of by such crowds and actual violent acts by same were occurring.

These sort of open carry events are not the same thing. None of them have turned violent, and unlike the racist Southern crowds of the not-too-distant past, the group in this case did not throw slurs or make threats.

So while I take your point, it is not really the same thing.

I thought you weren’t going to defend them?

It’s not the same thing, but not because there isn’t a long, tragic history of men killing women, often with guns.

310 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:32:46am

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but there was also a violent history of by such crowds and actual violent acts by same were occurring.

These sort of open carry events are not the same thing. None of them have turned violent, and unlike the racist Southern crowds of the not-too-distant past, the group in this case did not throw slurs or make threats.

So while I take your point, it is not really the same thing.

DF, they have better PR handlers is all. They knew exactly what they were doing and intended to spread fear in the meeting. They can lie all they want but the only purpose for them to be there was intimidation. It’s the assholes like that who are destroying gun rights in America - once they’ve convinced a sufficient majority that all gun owners are inherently insane, we’ll see the 2nd Amendment amended out of the constitution, probably losing the right to self defense in the process.

311 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:32:55am

re: #308 b_sharp

This isn’t a fake ad, but’s it’s put up and funded by 2 non-profit Colorado organizations with no official link to the ACA.

I have seen the Colorado “Brosurance” kegger ad, which was stupid, but these ads just seem too slut-shamey wingnut.

Do you have actual links?

312 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:35:23am

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

So while I take your point, it is not really the same thing.

Seriously? Come on.

The purpose of those assholes showing up armed to a planning meeting with four unarmed women was to intimidate and threaten them. Simple as that. It wasn’t a counter-protest, or bad PR or whatever bullshit line you’re feeding yourself. It was meant as a threat. There is no other explanation.

313 piratedan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:36:34am

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but there was also a violent history of by such crowds and actual violent acts by same were occurring.

These sort of open carry events are not the same thing. None of them have turned violent, and unlike the racist Southern crowds of the not-too-distant past, the group in this case did not throw slurs or make threats.

So while I take your point, it is not really the same thing.

It’s intimidation, plain and simple Dark, whether or not these nimrods have shot anybody is pretty much fucking irrelevant at this point since we have people shooting kindergartners, movie patrons, TSA agents and students on college campuses. While you may be desensitized and safe in the happy world of white middle class dudedom, that same fucking laissez faire attitude doesn’t cut any fucking cloth these days when you see political candidates threatening second amendment remedies and rhetoric about armed marches on the capital to rescue it from the ebil liberals.

You’re quick to jump up and defend your privileged white sensitive fees fees whenever you believe that they’ve been stepped on (and yes, sometimes folks here have deliberately done so to provoke you) but shrugging off this continual confrontational behavior from folks that are the core constituency of the party that you still want to rescue (and strangely enough I do too) should give you some pause instead of the “well they haven’t killed anyone, yet”.

314 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:36:50am

re: #302 Feline Fearless Leader

You are now expected to vote for Sarah Palin. If she opts to not run for public office you will vote for Ted Cruz, but send your money to Sarah in any case.
////

Instructions unclear; fed money to dog.

315 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:36:53am

re: #311 Vicious Babushka

I have seen the Colorado “Brosurance” kegger ad, which was stupid, but these ads just seem too slut-shamey wingnut.

Do you have actual links?

Here are the ads:
doyougotinsurance.com

Here are the funding orgs.
progressnowcolorado.org
cohealthinitiative.org

316 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:36:55am

goo help us, but the ‘got insurance’ ads appear to be legit.

See, I almost posted the same whois info re: #286 Joanne

317 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:37:33am

re: #295 Vicious Babushka

Now Fake Ad is viral.

[Embedded content]

318 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:37:38am

I’m going to leave this matter by posting the website of the group that pulled this stunt:

http://www.opencarrytexas.org/

they do have a ‘contact’ page so feel free to let them know what you think of their conduct.

319 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:37:42am

re: #308 b_sharp

This isn’t a fake ad, but’s it’s put up and funded by 2 non-profit Colorado organizations with no official link to the ACA.

Until Ryan Gosling’s lawyers find out about it.

320 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:38:37am

re: #301 wrenchwench

Interesting.

In case anyone wants to see my work:

doyougotinsurance.com

321 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:38:49am

re: #313 piratedan

That was righteous. If I could upding more than once I would.

322 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:39:23am

re: #315 b_sharp

Here are the ads:
doyougotinsurance.com

Here are the funding orgs.
progressnowcolorado.org
cohealthinitiative.org

Curious about their funding. The Koch interests are making a big play to dissuade the college-aged.

323 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:40:18am

re: #315 b_sharp

Here are the ads:
doyougotinsurance.com

Here are the funding orgs.
progressnowcolorado.org
cohealthinitiative.org

I get a DNS error for doyougotinsurance.com

324 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:41:49am

re: #313 piratedan

It’s intimidation, plain and simple Dark, whether or not these nimrods have shot anybody is pretty much fucking irrelevant at this point since we have people shooting kindergartners, movie patrons, TSA agents and students on college campuses. While you may be desensitized and safe in the happy world of white middle class dudedom, that same fucking laissez faire attitude doesn’t cut any fucking cloth these days when you see political candidates threatening second amendment remedies and rhetoric about armed marches on the capital to rescue it from the ebil liberals.

You’re quick to jump up and defend your privileged white sensitive fees fees whenever you believe that they’ve been stepped on (and yes, sometimes folks here have deliberately done so to provoke you) but shrugging off this continual confrontational behavior from folks that are the core constituency of the party that you still want to rescue (and strangely enough I do too) should give you some pause instead of the “well they haven’t killed anyone, yet”.

If you’re talking about my feet, I’ll tell you my right foot isn’t sensitive like it was for a while. It was suffered from part of a leg problem that has been cleared up.

/Heh.

325 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:42:07am

re: #319 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Until Ryan Gosling’s lawyers find out about it.

Hmmm…Hey Girl!

heygirlitspaulryan.tumblr.com

326 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:42:26am

Heading upstairs…

327 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:42:35am

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to leave this matter by posting the website of the group that pulled this stunt:

http://www.opencarrytexas.org/

they do have a ‘contact’ page so feel free to let them know what you think of their conduct.

And their sister organizations are listed, such as Don’t Comply. (Really, really scary site. Come and Take it movements. Don’t vote, overturn movement. that sort of thing.)

328 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:43:38am

re: #323 Vicious Babushka

Too many people hitting it if it went viral. That’s my guess.

329 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:49:17am

re: #288 FemNaziBitch

If it were 4 black people in the 1960’s having lunch and planning their next Civil Rights March —and a group of armed men gathered outside —

then, would it be understandable as a threat?

In the South? Not particularly.

330 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:49:52am

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to leave this matter by posting the website of the group that pulled this stunt:

http://www.opencarrytexas.org/

they do have a ‘contact’ page so feel free to let them know what you think of their conduct.

Right. We’re so eager to get in touch with people who bully women for fun.

331 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:59:24am

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but there was also a violent history of by such crowds and actual violent acts by same were occurring.

These sort of open carry events are not the same thing. None of them have turned violent, and unlike the racist Southern crowds of the not-too-distant past, the group in this case did not throw slurs or make threats.

So while I take your point, it is not really the same thing.

Gabby Giffords and others would disagree.

332 gwangung  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:12:48pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but there was also a violent history of by such crowds and actual violent acts by same were occurring.

DOES. NOT. MATTER.

THese yahoos learned well from the Mafia.

You are most certainly defending armed thugs who are using tactics perfected by organized crime.

333 A Mom Anon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:51:28pm

re: #265 Lidane

So, let’s just say that 40 people showed up outside DF’s house with openly carried weapons, just because they didn’t like something he said or did. Would he feel at all intimidated by that?

As someone who has had a gun pointed at her face over a stupid argument, someone who’s survived sexual assault and domestic violence, there’s not a snowball’s chance at the equator that a bunch of guys sporting weapons WAITING on 4 unarmed women to leave a restaurant wasn’t meant to be intimidating. If they were truly interested in something constructive they could have showed up without firearms. Period.


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