WaPo’s Richard Cohen: It’s Not Racist to Feel Like Vomiting When You See Biracial Couples

WTF!
Weird • Views: 25,991

Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen weighed in today on racism in the Republican Party; he says the GOP is definitely not racist. Just “deeply troubled.” It’s perfectly natural in his view to need to “suppress a gag reflex” when one sees a biracial couple.

Today’s GOP is not racist, as Harry Belafonte alleged about the tea party, but it is deeply troubled — about the expansion of government, about immigration, about secularism, about the mainstreaming of what used to be the avant-garde. People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children. (Should I mention that Bill de Blasio’s wife, Chirlane McCray, used to be a lesbian?) This family represents the cultural changes that have enveloped parts — but not all — of America. To cultural conservatives, this doesn’t look like their country at all.

If you feel the need to vomit when you see a white man married to a black woman… yes, that’s racist. In fact, that’s pretty much the archetypal example of racism, and why the hell are we even debating it? It’s difficult not to suspect that Cohen is projecting his own feelings onto “people with conventional views.”

And we should note that Cohen sounds amazingly like far right racist blogger Robert Stacy McCain, who infamously wrote:

The media now force interracial images into the public mind and a number of perfectly rational people react to these images with an altogether natural revulsion. The white person who does not mind transacting business with a black bank clerk may yet be averse to accepting the clerk as his sister-in-law, and THIS IS NOT RACISM, no matter what Madison Avenue, Hollywood and Washington tell us.

UPDATE at 11/12/13 1:58:38 pm

Now we’ve done it. Richard Cohen’s feelings are hurt.

“I didn’t write one line, I wrote a column,” he told the�Huffington Post�in an interview.�”The column is about Tea Party extremism and I was not expressing my views, I was expressing the views of what I think some people in the Tea Party held.”

“The word racist is truly hurtful,” he added. “It’s not who I am. It’s not who I ever was. It’s just not fair. It’s just not right.”

Cohen explained that he didn’t think the entire Tea Party held such views.

“I don’t think everybody in the Tea Party is like that, because I know there are blacks in the Tea Party,” he said. “So they’re not all racist, unless I’m going to start doing mind reading about why those black people are there.”

Fred Hiatt, the Washington Post editorial page editor, also defended the column Tuesday, but said that he could have edited it “more carefully.”

Jump to bottom

440 comments
1 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:35:26am

Of course the GOP isn’t racist, some of their best friends are black!

////

2 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:35:39am

“Conventional”, in this case, means “conventional in the nineteen fucking fifties and now approximately half as popular as the Tea Party.”

Thirteen percent. Thirteen percent of people will admit they disapprove of biracial marriage. This issue has even lost half of the 27% dead-enders.

That’s Richard Cohen’s “conventional”.

3 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:37:02am

I would like to see the DNA profile for Richard Cohen, and compare it to the DNA profile of the newborn panda cub at the National Zoo.

4 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:38:37am

Richard Cohen is a hack that outlived whatever relevance he had at least a decade ago. Also, he’s a racist tool.

5 b.d.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:40:00am
(Should I mention that Bill de Blasio’s wife, Chirlane McCray, used to be a lesbian?)

Putting it in parenthesis isn’t mentioning it at all!!!

What a peach!

6 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:42:07am

As a man with 2 bi-racial (damn I hate that term, it is so meaningless) kids, I find his attitude atavistic, ignorant and worthy only of Australopithecines.

7 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:42:27am

HURR HURR DON’T SAY MY QUOTES IZ FAKE THEY IZ TEH TROOF!!!!! U COMMUNIST.

8 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:43:42am
(Should I mention that Bill de Blasio’s wife, Chirlane McCray, used to be a lesbian?)

Dear Moron,

If she was in a relationship with a woman but is now married to a man, that doesn’t mean she “used to be a lesbian”. That means she IS bisexual, even if she doesn’t personally identify that way. She just sees love as love now, whatever she might have written 30+ years ago.

Fuck you very much,
Me

9 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:43:52am

Cohen should seriously consider retirement. Submitting a column like this for publication shows a serious lack of good judgment.

10 Higgs Boson's Mate  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:44:35am
The media now force interracial images into the public mind and a number of perfectly rational people react to these images with an altogether natural revulsion.

Anyone who may have doubted that Cohen’s mind is an open sewer can now put those doubts to rest. Racism isn’t appalling, folks, it’s an altogether natural reaction. In some places it’s so natural that people dress up in white robes and pointy hoods to celebrate it.

11 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:45:01am

re: #9 makeitstop

Cohen should seriously consider retirement. Submitting a column like this for publication shows a serious lack of good judgment.

Makes me wonder what it would take to get fired.

12 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:45:35am
If you feel the need to vomit when you see a white man married to a black woman… yes, that’s racist. In fact, that’s pretty much the archetypal example of racism, and it’s difficult not to suspect that Cohen is projecting his own feelings onto “people with conventional views.”

Quoted for truth. The dishonesty and backwardness shown by Cohen is breathtaking.

13 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:45:47am

Apparently the “rebranding” died a quick death and has instead been replaced with “doubling down.” Why try to win over minorities when you can instead argue that being disgusted by seeing an interracial couple is perfectly normal?

Hell, just read in its entirety, Cohen’s whole little bit shows why the GOP as a party is collapsing. That it can’t handle change, can’t handle progress, and so is a dinosaur that is rapidly approaching obsolescence. The “Young Guns” are spouting the same shit their elders do, but we’re supposed to buy it because they’re more charismatic when they argue 50’s era ideals as a goal for America to embrace.

14 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:46:32am

re: #10 Higgs Boson’s Mate

Anyone who may have doubted that Cohen’s mind is an open sewer can now put those doubts to rest. Racism isn’t appalling, folks, it’s an altogether natural reaction. In some places it’s so natural that people dress up in white robes and pointy hoods to celebrate it.

That’s a quote from the other racist, McCain.

15 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:46:41am

re: #7 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR DON’T SAY MY QUOTES IZ FAKE THEY IZ TEH TROOF!!!!! U COMMUNIST.

[Embedded content]

16 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:47:36am

WTF is this horseshit?

17 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:48:07am

Charles, if you’re reading this…

Every time I post a comment, it takes me back to the top of the page, even though I have the Return To Comment checkbox checked.

Win 7, Firefox 25.0 (25, really? Wow, I am old!)

18 darthstar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:48:10am

Okay…this is funny.

19 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:48:12am

re: #16 Kragar

WTF is this horseshit?

The 2016 GOP Party Platform.

20 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:48:39am

re: #11 wrenchwench

Makes me wonder what it would take to get fired.

This OUGHT to do it. The WaPo should can Cohen for this one.

21 darthstar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:49:11am

Holy fuck. WaPo needs an editor.

22 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:49:12am

Was Richard Cohen the one who originally trolled this YouTube ad?

The commercial features a biracial daughter asking her white mother if Cheerios are good for your heart, and then dumping a batch on her black father’s chest to playfully help his heart while he is sleeping on the couch. Some of the reaction was so offensive that General Mills, the maker of Cheerios, disabled the comments section on the YouTube video of the commercial. General Mills has announced it will not be pulling the ad due to any controversy.

23 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:49:50am

re: #15 Joanne

[Embedded content]

Because letting Americans starve and die from lack of healthcare is the patriotic thing to do.

Fucking asshole.

24 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:50:09am

re: #8 Lidane

Dear Moron,

If she was in a relationship with a woman but is now married to a man, that doesn’t mean she “used to be a lesbian”. That means she IS bisexual, even if she doesn’t personally identify that way. She just sees love as love now, whatever she might have written 30+ years ago.

Fuck you very much,
Me

The only bi-sexual he has experience with is buy-sexual.

(Sorry)

25 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:50:43am

WTF

26 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:50:59am

re: #17 Joanne

Charles, if you’re reading this…

Every time I post a comment, it takes me back to the top of the page, even though I have the Return To Comment checkbox checked.

Win 7, Firefox 25.0 (25, really? Wow, I am old!)

Me too, but Win 8. And I reloaded the whole internet. I mean, I closed & reopened Firefox.

27 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:51:23am

But only when the comment is a reply.

28 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:51:25am

It’s so nice to see that Richard Cohen lowers the mask on his inner hate once again. Both to confirm that he’s stuck on stupid, and that many others hew to the same noxious ideas of miscegenation/interracial relationships.

29 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:51:33am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

WTF

[Embedded content]

Remember this is the same paper who thinks Jenn Rubin’s brain farts are worthy of top billing.

30 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:54:03am

The alarming thing is not that a drooling lunatic like this exists, but that he works for the Washington Post.

31 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:54:03am

re: #22 Interesting Times

Was Richard Cohen the one who originally trolled this YouTube ad?

Color me surprised.

32 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:54:43am

Gohmert: Obamacare Created Secretive Security Force - See more at: rightwingwatch.org

Janet Mefferd spoke with Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) on Friday about a Department of Homeland Security solicitation for a security contractor “at various locations throughout the states of Minnesota and Wisconsin.” While Gohmert said he didn’t know much about it, he claimed that the health care reform law may be creating a security force no one knows about.

33 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:55:00am

re: #19 Targetpractice

The 2016 GOP Party Platform.

Um, no. Even Ted Cruz knows better than to say this. As erik_t pointed out, the view Richard Cohen spouted isn’t even (publicly) held by most of the Tea Party. That’s part of why he’s likely to get it from both sides on this one.

Even if the Washington Post fires Cohen, the Breitbart.com crew and Glenn Beck are going to have a field day with this one. Their Talking Point: The Liberal Media is Raaay-cist!!1 Hurr, Hurr, Hurr!

34 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:55:04am

yet be averse to accepting the clerk as his sister-in-law, and THIS IS NOT RACISM

incorrect

35 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:55:23am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

WTF

[Embedded content]

Let them keep digging. I am enjoying it. They are going to turn virtually the entire youth generation now against them forever.

And I am good with that.

36 Ming  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:55:32am

Richard Cohen’s article is obviously racist, and beyond sad.

I take some comfort in something President Obama said, in remarks he made about the Trayvon Martin tragedy. (The video was excellent, and was posted here at LGF.) Towards the end of the video, the President said that his daughters’ generation was “better than our generation”, in regard to tolerating diversity.

I believe this is the case, that with each new generation, we’re seeing some increase in tolerance. This may turn out to be wrong; maybe the dystopian sci fi genre is closer to reality. But it does seem that attitudes in America are SLOWLY improving, e.g. the recent progress in same-sex marriage.

So I have some optimism that Richard Cohen is becoming more and more of a dinosaur, with every year that passes. Here’s hoping.

37 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:56:32am
38 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:56:45am

re: #32 Kragar

Gohmert: Obamacare Created Secretive Security Force - See more at: rightwingwatch.org

Because people never threaten Federal offices….

[headdesk]

39 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:58:25am

1. People with conventional views

2. “cultural conservatives”

only one answer allowed

40 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:58:36am
People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children. (Should I mention that Bill de Blasio’s wife, Chirlane McCray, used to be a lesbian?) This family represents the cultural changes that have enveloped parts — but not all — of America. To cultural conservatives, this doesn’t look like their country at all.

Your “liberal” Washington Post, ladies and gentlemen.

41 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 10:59:31am

re: #8 Lidane

Dear Moron,

If she was in a relationship with a woman but is now married to a man, that doesn’t mean she “used to be a lesbian”. That means she IS bisexual, even if she doesn’t personally identify that way. She just sees love as love now, whatever she might have written 30+ years ago.

Fuck you very much,
Me

Imagine for a moment that she did “use to be a lesbian”. Wouldn’t that be a good thing according to people with Cohen’s “conventional views”? I thought they were all in favor of people being “ex-gay”.

42 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:00:54am

re: #37 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Speaking of things that engage the gag reflex.

43 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:01:01am


Married. To each other.

44 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:01:15am

re: #27 wrenchwench

But only when the comment is a reply.

Ok, let’s check it out.

45 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:01:35am

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

Um, no. Even Ted Cruz knows better than to say >this. As erik_t pointed out, the view Richard Cohen spouted isn’t even (publicly) held by most of the Tea Party. That’s part of why he’s likely to get it from both sides on this one.

Even if the Washington Post fires Cohen, the Breitbart.com crew and Glenn Beck are going to have a field day with this one. Their Talking Point: The Liberal Media is Raaay-cist!!1 Hurr, Hurr, Hurr!

He’s likely to get it from both sides? I’ll believe it when I see it.

46 Flying Squirrel Girl  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:01:50am

re: #41 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

No, this just proves that gays are not “born this way.”

47 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:02:29am
48 EmmaAnne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:03:28am

The best I can say for Richard Cohen is that perhaps he has gone senile. I haven’t read such unreconstructed racism in a major newspaper possibly ever.

49 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:03:46am

re: #32 Kragar

Gohmert: Obamacare Created Secretive Security Force - See more at: rightwingwatch.org

Image: Gohmert.jpg

50 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:04:33am

re: #17 Joanne

Charles, if you’re reading this…

Every time I post a comment, it takes me back to the top of the page, even though I have the Return To Comment checkbox checked.

Win 7, Firefox 25.0 (25, really? Wow, I am old!)

Reload the page and it should be fixed now.

51 EmmaAnne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:04:37am

re: #46 Flying Squirrel Girl

No, this just proves that gays are not “born this way.”

Sooo, I hope you are paraphrasing Cohen’s probable views here and not your own?

52 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:04:46am

Just who the hell are these people who gag at the sight of an interracial couple?

One of my nephews is a devout Second Amendment good old boy in Alabama. I clash frequently with him over various issues: gun laws, Obama, environmental policy, more Obama, etc.
It happens that he is happily married to a black woman, and they have three beautiful children.

53 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:05:00am

re: #25 Vicious Babushka

re: #37 wrenchwench

When John Derbyshire wrote his racist piece about the death of Trayvon Martin, Rich Lowry had the good sense to boot ‘Derb’ off on National Review in short order. Katharine Weymouth, by contrast, praised Richard Cohen’s racist piece and in doing so has put her foot right in it.

So we see the publisher of the ‘liberal’ Washington Post being more tone-deaf about race than the editor of National Review. I’d call that an EPIC FAIL, wouldn’t you?

54 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:05:06am

re: #26 wrenchwench

Me too, but Win 8. And I reloaded the whole internet. I mean, I closed & reopened Firefox.

Yup, it’s fixed.

55 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:05:16am

re: #48 EmmaAnne

The best I can say for Richard Cohen is that perhaps he has gone senile. I haven’t read such unreconstructed racism in a major newspaper possibly ever.

Oh, no. He’s been a racist toolbag for decades. WaPo had to apologize for one of his columns back in the 80’s when he said that jewelry stores could refuse entry to black men due to fear of crime.

56 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:05:51am

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

Um, no. Even Ted Cruz knows better than to say >this. As erik_t pointed out, the view Richard Cohen spouted isn’t even (publicly) held by most of the Tea Party. That’s part of why he’s likely to get it from both sides on this one.

Even if the Washington Post fires Cohen, the Breitbart.com crew and Glenn Beck are going to have a field day with this one. Their Talking Point: The Liberal Media is Raaay-cist!!1 Hurr, Hurr, Hurr!

Well, no.

I’ll bet you an entire internet dollar that pretty much the entire Tea Party thinks Richard Cohen is entirely within his rights to publicly reject biracial marriage, regardless of their personal feelings on it. Rejection of the social contract is what they’re all about, and part of the social contract is rejecting abhorrent views, and rejecting those than promulgate them. See Rand Paul’s statements on the Civil Rights Act.

And something something free speech, he’d better not get fired for his precious feelings, because nobody on the right seems to have a functioning concept of what the First Amendment does and does not say.

57 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:06:33am

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

When John Derbyshire wrote his racist piece about the death of Trayvon Martin, Rich Lowry had the good sense to boot ‘Derb’ off on National Review in short order.

Yeah. And then he hired Jason Richwine.

There’s a reason why NRO is called National Racists Online.

58 Joanne  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:06:48am

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Reload the page and it should be fixed now.

Let’s see….

Edit: Yup, all good now. Thank you!

59 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:08:09am

To which I say, “Tough titty if you don’t like it, Cohen.”

When are some people in this country going to grow the fuck up and get their heads out of their asses? Most people in this country are way, way ahead of Cohen and his ilk. And don’t think it’s because of his age—he and I are both 72. Some of us have moved on but obviously some haven’t.

It’s the 21st century, not the 20th.

60 122 Year Old Obama  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:09:07am

re: #59 Justanotherhuman

It’s the 21st century, not the 20th 14th.

FTFY

61 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:10:06am

I still can’t get over this:

People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children.

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. How does opposition to interracial marriage represent anything of a “conventional” view these days? Cohen is aware that it isn’t 1955 anymore, right?

What’s awful/hilarious to me is that I live not far from where DeBlasio does, and I take pride in the number of interracial couples I see in my ‘hood, as if it means that MLK’s dream is a reality (at least in one small corner of the country, full of affluent yupsters). Cohen would puke if he saw Fort Greene or Prospect Heights or Park Slope, apparently.

Also,

To cultural conservatives, this doesn’t look like their country at all.

Nobody gives a flying fuck. America shouldn’t be bending to accommodate these dinosaurs. If they don’t like it, El Salvador waits with open arms.

62 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:10:19am

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

When John Derbyshire wrote his racist piece about the death of Trayvon Martin, Rich Lowry had the good sense to boot ‘Derb’ off on National Review in short order. Katharine Weymouth, by contrast, praised Richard Cohen’s racist piece and in doing so has put her foot right in it.

So we see the publisher of the ‘liberal’ Washington Post being more tone-deaf about race than the editor of National Review. I’d call that an EPIC FAIL, wouldn’t you?

Yes, it is an epic fail. But your implication that racism is a thing of the right is a straw person.

63 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:10:35am

re: #48 EmmaAnne

The best I can say for Richard Cohen is that perhaps he has gone senile. I haven’t read such unreconstructed racism in a major newspaper possibly ever.

No, people have been accusing him of racism for a long time. The late Carl Rowan had the right of Cohen about 16 years ago when he said that

Cohen is more of a sniper, firing away at strategic times to anger black people and stir up white paranoia. Between such attacks, he passes fairly well as a semi-liberal.

Post edited.

64 Flying Squirrel Girl  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:10:41am

re: #51 EmmaAnne

Oh no! Not my view at all! Should have added a snark tag or used purple font!!!

65 Ace-o-aces  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:12:37am
Today’s GOP is not racist,…People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children.

Could somebody get Mr. Cohen a dictionary, because I think he knows what racist means.

66 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:14:48am

re: #62 wrenchwench

Yes, it is an epic fail. But your implication that racism is a thing of the right is a straw person.

I wasn’t trying to imply that. But people here have taken NR to task for articles they consider racist (and NR did need to get rid of a pair of racists last year). so it seemed a good choice for a “compare and contrast”.

I seldom imply things, I more often just say what I want to say or say nothing at all.

67 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:15:48am

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

No, people have been accusing him of racism for a long time. The late Carl Rowan had the right of Cohen about 16 years ago when he said that

I’d like to see the context of that comment before I call Carl Rowan an idiot. If you behave like a racist when you feel like it and function as a semi-liberal in between, it would make you a racist, not a semi-liberal.

68 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:18:32am

re: #67 wrenchwench

I’d like to see the context of that comment before I call Carl Rowan an idiot. If you behave like a racist when you feel like it and function as a semi-liberal in between, it would make you a racist, not a semi-liberal.

I actually needed to change a word upon further review. Rowan said “passes” instead of “functions”. Please excuse the error.

69 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:19:26am
70 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:20:35am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

I wasn’t trying to imply that. But people here have taken NR to task for articles they consider racist (and NR >did need to get rid of a pair of racists last year). so it seemed a good choice for a “compare and contrast”.

I seldom imply things, I more often just say what I want to say or say nothing at all.

You said ‘… we see the publisher of the ‘liberal’ Washington Post being more tone-deaf about race than the editor of National Review.’ You put the word ‘liberal’ in there to contrast with what we all know to be true about NRO*. It still looks like an implication to me.

*What ‘we all know’ about NRO is that they are conservative. What most of us know, but you still seem to be resisting, is that it continues to promote racist piece of shit views about our fellow humans.

71 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:20:52am

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I actually needed to change a word upon further review. Rowan said “passes” instead of “functions”. Please excuse the error.

OK, that sounds less crazy.

72 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:21:20am

re: #69 Kragar

Having grown up Catholic, hearing “the bible says you should never feel guilt” is a real freakin’ new one to me.

//////

73 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:22:09am

re: #69 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Thou shalt not murder…unless you’re a soldier, then it’s totally okay and nothing to feel guilty over.

///

74 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:22:21am

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

75 docproto48  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:22:52am

Where the fuck is that guy my black wife and I (whitey) want to puke on him

76 darthstar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:24:05am

re: #67 wrenchwench

I’d like to see the context of that comment before I call Carl Rowan an idiot. If you behave like a racist when you feel like it and function as a semi-liberal in between, it would make you a racist, not a semi-liberal.

Or a racist semi-liberal. Racism isn’t mutually exclusive from other ideologies. There are racist conservatives, there are racist Christians, there are racist environmentalists, and racist progressives. It is only through acknowledging one’s internal fears of others that a person can overcome them.

Cohen’s exposing himself as a racist is the first step to acknowledging it. Eventually he’ll figure out that it isn’t right, or he’ll get drafted by the Miami Dolphins.

77 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:25:12am

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

I keep hearing ZOMG BEST 2013 FILM EVAR about Gravity but I haven’t seen it yet. And 12 Years a Slave is supposed to be amazing too.

I’m going to see Thor this afternoon since I’m a total Marvel film fangirl.

78 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:25:14am

re: #76 darthstar

Thanks for the improvement.

79 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:25:38am

re: #69 Kragar

[Embedded content]

80 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:25:43am
81 CriticalDragon1177  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:25:49am

To quote what PZ Myers had to say about this,

Pro-tip: if you find yourself gagging at the thought of interracial marriage, you are racist. You are so racist you are choking on your own racism.

Bonus! If you find yourself uncomfortable with the thought that someone’s partner might have once had a same-sex relationship, you’re also homophobic!

freethoughtblogs.com

82 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:26:25am

Come to think of it, there are a few of these hateful dinosaurs still around, though one less than a few months ago.
A while back I mentioned the sudden death of a notorious Lubbock Tea Party blogger, and how it put me in mind of Clarence Darrow’s famous statement, “I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with the greatest pleasure.”
Part of my animosity for this POS is that he called a local (conservative) politician a “racemixer” and referred to the politician’s 4 year old child as a “half-breed.” He, no doubt, would gag at the sight of an interracial couple.

83 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:29:05am

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

Gravity was worth it as an experience, though it really isn’t a drama—the plot is simply “get from here to there to there to there alive”. There is no conflict or villain, unless you count the un-mentioned trainer responsible for sending Sandra Bullock into space. The visuals are spectacular, the 3D is actually justified, and the detail is mostly realistic, except for a single, critical, error that moves the action. (No spoiler, but refresh your Newton.) The best argument for the film is that you might still think about it a few days later.

84 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:29:20am

re: #69 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Yeah, those crusaders who sacked Jerusalem in 1099? Real soldiers, who didn’t suffer guilt or PTSD when skewering Muslim children on a pike.

85 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:29:27am

re: #77 Lidane

I keep hearing ZOMG BEST 2013 FILM EVAR about Gravity but I haven’t seen it yet. And 12 Years a Slave is supposed to be amazing too.

I’m going to see Thor this afternoon since I’m a total Marvel film fangirl.

Saw it Saturday. It was fun. My kids loved Darcy.

86 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:31:38am

well Jeff Goldberg doesn’t know any conservatives against Interracial marriage so it must not be true.

dailykos.com

87 Kilroy01  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:31:38am

re: #83 Decatur Deb

Only seen two:
Thor was very fun and much better than the first. Will see it again. Action, excitement and humor (Something DC movies sadly lacks)

Gravity was more thoughtful, impressive special effects. Just don’t think about physics to much. A must for the big screen.

My 2cents

88 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:31:59am

re: #83 Decatur Deb

Gravity was worth it as an experience, though it really isn’t a drama—the plot is simply “get from here to there to there to there alive”. There is no conflict or villain, unless you count the un-mentioned trainer responsible for sending Sandra Bullock into space. The visuals are spectacular, the 3D is actually justified, and the detail is mostly realistic, except for a single, critical, error that moves the action. (No spoiler, but refresh your Newton.) The best argument for the film is that you might still think about it a few days later.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson was a big party pooper by pointing out a bunch of science bloopers in Gravity but then he said everybody should go see it because it’s a great movie and don’t think too hard about Teh Sciences.

89 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:33:43am

re: #88 Vicious Babushka

If you’re wondering how they eat or breathe or other science facts, you should say to yourself “Its just a show. I should really just relax.”

90 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:34:17am

re: #83 Decatur Deb

Gravity was worth it as an experience, though it really isn’t a drama—the plot is simply “get from here to there to there to there alive”. There is no conflict or villain, unless you count the un-mentioned trainer responsible for sending Sandra Bullock into space. The visuals are spectacular, the 3D is actually justified, and the detail is mostly realistic, except for a single, critical, error that moves the action. (No spoiler, but refresh your Newton.) The best argument for the film is that you might still think about it a few days later.

I’ve heard that it was basically “Open Water” set in space.

91 Ace-o-aces  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:34:26am

re: #86 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

well Jeff Goldberg doesn’t know any conservatives against Interracial marriage so it must not be true.

dailykos.com

In his defense, most of the conservatives he knows are probably moderate/libertarian East coast republicans.

92 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:35:37am

re: #85 Kragar

Saw it Saturday. It was fun. My kids loved Darcy.

A friend of mine who saw it joked that they should bring Darcy in to Agents of SHIELD whenever 2 Broke Girls finally ends. Make her a comic foil for Coulson and give her more depth.

I have to admit, it’s not a bad idea. I think it would be funny.

93 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:35:49am

re: #88 Vicious Babushka

Neil DeGrasse Tyson was a big party pooper by pointing out a bunch of science bloopers in Gravity but then he said everybody should go see it because it’s a great movie and don’t think too hard about Teh Sciences.

Yeah—most of his faults were details, but one would actually screw up the narrative.

94 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:35:51am

Given my current kick with a superheroes coop game (Sentinels of the Multiverse) and that I will be helping a friend move next week (who is blogging about old issues of Thor on a weekly basis) I think I am favoring Thor since it will provide conversation fodder for next week - and maybe give me some ideas for a game variant or sequence.

95 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:36:06am
96 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:37:18am

re: #84 Ian G.

Yeah, those crusaders who sacked Jerusalem in 1099? Real soldiers, who didn’t suffer guilt or PTSD when skewering Muslim children on a pike.

God may hold a person blameless, but that doesn’t mean that person will hold himself or herself blameless and much of PTSD is Survivor’s Guilt.

Bible Comprehension FAIL.

97 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:37:56am
98 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:38:16am

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

Haven’t seen any of those personally, but I’m told that Gravity is best seen in IMAX 3D, as anything lower than that just doesn’t do the special effects justice. Beyond that, the story’s forgettable.

99 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:39:28am

re: #98 Targetpractice

Haven’t seen any of those personally, but I’m told that Gravity is best seen in IMAX 3D, as anything lower than that just doesn’t do the special effects justice. Beyond that, the story’s forgettable.

Looks like they’re using their IMAX capability on Thor and Ender’s Game right now.

100 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:40:01am

Late to the Cohen-bashing party, but What.The.Fuck? “People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children.”

So now racism is the “conventional view”? This boggles the mind.

101 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:40:28am

re: #97 wrenchwench

From that link:

One last thing: I’m not offended by this as much as I am amused by its terribleness. If there’s anyone who should be offended, it’s actual social conservatives, who have just been smeared as a bunch of retrograde racists for the sake of Cohen’s discomfort. With that said, I have a bit of advice for the Post columnist: The next time he wants to generalize his racism to a broader group, he should do so for a friendlier audience. And as it happens, I hear Stormfront is always looking for new writers.

RTWT.

102 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:40:31am

re: #90 Jack Burton

I’ve heard that it was basically “Open Water” set in space.

It was only today that I realized the action takes place in near-real time. And with only 2 ‘live actor’ parts, it really sticks to the unities (If you count orbit as one place).

en.wikipedia.org

103 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:40:46am

re: #98 Targetpractice

Haven’t seen any of those personally, but I’m told that Gravity is best seen in IMAX 3D, as anything lower than that just doesn’t do the special effects justice. Beyond that, the story’s forgettable.

I can’t see any reason for going to see a movie in a theater unless it’s IMAX 3D. Other than that I can just wait until it comes out on Netflix and watch at home.

104 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:40:52am

re: #92 Lidane

A friend of mine who saw it joked that they should bring Darcy in to Agents of SHIELD agent whenever 2 Broke Girls finally ends. Make her a comic foil for Coulson and give her more depth.

I have to admit, it’s not a bad idea. I think it would be funny.

I liked the bit.

“DARCY!”
“JANE!”
“IAN!”
“MYEUH-MIR!”

105 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:41:05am

re: #97 wrenchwench

And the very first comment I see:

DeepSouthPopulist1
4 minutes ago
Bouie is such a small-minded, bigoted black racist. So Cohen wrote what he wrote. Who cares? Close the window if you don’t like Cohen. I don’t myself.

I am against race/ethnic-mixing by genetically distant peoples. While I think such arrangements are fine for people who choose them and would not want to see them prohibited by law, it is a practice that I feel should be discouraged. Mixing IS in fact discouraged, even frowned on, in most of the world, from Israel, across Africa, to Russia, Central Asia, China, and Japan, and in much of Red America.

White western liberals are the exception. If white liberals want to race mix themselves out of existence, I might be fine with that on reflection.

I just…

SMFH.

106 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:42:14am

re: #105 erik_t

And the very first comment I see:

I just…

SMFH.

This is the only place I read the comments, and that’s a good example of why.

107 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:42:47am

re: #98 Targetpractice

Haven’t seen any of those personally, but I’m told that Gravity is best seen in IMAX 3D, as anything lower than that just doesn’t do the special effects justice. Beyond that, the story’s forgettable.

We did 3D, and grandaughter had us sit so close that the peripheral vision was IMAX enough. Might want to watch the sound levels where you sit.

108 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:42:53am

re: #103 Vicious Babushka

I can’t see any reason for going to see a movie in a theater unless it’s IMAX 3D. Other than that I can just wait until it comes out on Netflix and watch at home.

In my case I’m on the road so I can toss the $$ for a movie to company expense as entertainment and it gets me out of the hotel room - which is part of the reason for the exercise as well. (Note, the hotel bar as the alternate to the room is not really a goal either.)

109 Stoatly  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:43:15am

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

Only seen Gravity - and it’s deffo just mind candy
The effects are well done, but the plot is cheesier and more hole-filled than cartoon Emmental
Sandra Bullock plays a sort of anti-Ripley - spends most of her time being useless and reliant on butch old Clooney

and I challenge anyone to explain why in the hell he goes and kills himself and leaves her in an even worse situation

110 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:43:20am

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

“Gravity” and “12 Years A Slave”. I’ve seen the former, and it’s excellent. I’m looking forward to the latter when it opens here in the Czech Republic.

111 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:43:56am

re: #105 erik_t

And the very first comment I see:

I just…

SMFH.

The Martians called. They’re so genetically diverse they think we *all* are committing incest.
////

112 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:44:40am

The last movie I saw in a theater was “Avatar” which is really lame unless it’s watched in IMAX 3D

113 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:45:38am

re: #101 wrenchwench

From that link:

RTWT.

I actually like the preceding paragraph even more:

As soon as you consider the reality of public opinion, Cohen’s paragraph looks a lot less like description and a lot more like projection. It’s Cohen who feels disgusted when he sees interracial couples, and he’s hoisting that view on social conservatives as if they’re not his own. And if that sounds unfair, it’s worth remembering that this is the same Richard Cohen who thinks we should profile young black men as potential criminals, and restrict their freedom, lest we all suffer for political correctness. Honestly, I have to wonder if Cohen has an editor, or if there’s no one who can stop him from writing this racist nonsense.

114 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:46:14am

re: #109 Stoatly

Only seen Gravity - and it’s deffo just mind candy
The effects are well done, but the plot is cheesier and more hole-filled than cartoon Emmental
Sandra Bullock plays a sort of anti-Ripley - spends most of her time being useless and reliant on butch old Clooney

[Embedded content]

Hey—she just signed up to change a lightbulb. They ignore completely that the ending implies a world about to plunge into chaos.

115 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:46:38am

Now I think I know why America generally has avoided having ‘The Conversation About Race’. Because the thoughts that come out are just…I dunno…just too racist, for want of a better term. I mean, that guy in erik_t’s post, who thinks it shouldn’t be ILLEGAL, but it should be DISCOURAGED? Where in hell do you get, and how in hell do you rationally justify such an attitude?

Welcome to Post-Racial America.

116 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:46:51am

re: #106 wrenchwench

This is the only place I read the comments, and that’s a good example of why.

I OVER-SCROLLED! I DIDN’T MEAN TO! AND THEN IT WAS LIKE A TRAIN WRECK AND I COULDN’T LOOK AWAY!

117 ausador  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:49:03am

re: #44 Charles Johnson

Ok, let’s check it out.

I’m so used to firefox bouncing me back to someplace random and halfway up the thread after posting a reply that I don’t even think of complaining about it anymore.

The same thing happens when you click on the last post to a thread from the main page. Even though you clicked on a supposed link to a specific post that was the last in the thread. Sure the page starts to load you at the last post but then it jumps around randomly and when the page is fully loaded you end up anything from 15 to 55 posts away (upthread) from the one you clicked on depending on the size of the thread.

118 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:49:12am
119 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:50:48am

re: #117 ausador

I’m so used to firefox bouncing me back to someplace random and halfway up the thread after posting a reply that I don’t even think of complaining about it anymore.

The same thing happens when you click on the last post to a thread from the main page. Even though you clicked on a supposed link to a specific post that was the last in the thread. Sure the page starts to load you at the last post but then it jumps around randomly and when the page is fully loaded you end up anything from 15 to 55 posts away from the one you clicked on depending on the size of the thread.

I noticed that too. My guess is that’s caused by all the tweets unfolding as the page loads.

120 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:52:38am

re: #114 Decatur Deb

Hey—she just signed up to change a lightbulb. They ignore completely that the ending implies a world about to plunge into chaos.

Because of the debris field. Yeah, I get that but there isn’t a way to tell that part of the story. That part is a “things get really bad and there’s no swift solution” type of situation. Those tend to be depressing, and they didn’t want to end the movie on a depressing note.

121 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:53:27am

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

The editorial page editor of the Washington Post largely defend a column by Richard Cohen that’s come under intense scrutiny on Tuesday, but acknowledged that he “erred in not editing” the sentence in the piece that’s drawn so much criticism.

122 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:54:52am

re: #116 erik_t

I OVER-SCROLLED! I DIDN’T MEAN TO! AND THEN IT WAS LIKE A TRAIN WRECK AND I COULDN’T LOOK AWAY!

Image: Looked_at_the_comments.jpg

123 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:55:10am

re: #121 Kragar

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

but acknowledged that he “erred in not editing” the sentence in the piece that’s drawn so much criticism.

“Sorry, our crypto-racism was insufficiently crypto.”

124 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:55:13am

re: #105 erik_t

And the very first comment I see:

I just…

SMFH.

Genetically distant?
This MF has no understanding of genetics.

125 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:55:50am

re: #123 erik_t

“Sorry, our crypto-racism was insufficiently crypto.”

“To be fair, we really didn’t expect anyone to actually read us. Our bad.”

126 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:55:52am

re: #121 Kragar

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

What, they should hide his true feelings? And continue to have him write for them?

127 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:57:04am

re: #118 Kragar

Does Bryan not know women have served in the US Armed forces for a very long time?

Oh yeah I forgot, he lives in a fact free world and is mercifully spared the ravages of intelligence.

128 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:58:14am

re: #121 Kragar

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

Seriously? If you strip out that sentence from Cohen’s little missive, you pretty much gut the entire premise, which is that Christie can’t win over Iowa voters like Cruz can because he can’t appeal to “conventional” folks.

129 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:58:17am

re: #127 Jack Burton

Does Bryan not know women have served in the US Armed forces for a very long time?

Oh yeah I forgot, he lives in a fact free world and is mercifully spared the ravages of intelligence.

Oh he knows they’ve served. But sexual assaults in the military didn’t start until women ended up fighting in combat don’tcha know.

130 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:59:29am

Fact is Fischer and all these guys want this to be a white Christian male dominated country. They don’t even try to hide that.

131 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:59:49am

re: #127 Jack Burton

Does Bryan not know women have served in the US Armed forces for a very long time?

Oh yeah I forgot, he lives in a fact free world and is mercifully spared the ravages of intelligence.

DIL, her mother, and her mother all wore combat boots. DIL locked and loaded in a no-shit situation.

132 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:00:41pm

Oh and Cohen is a fucking asshole as is the Post for standing by him. Di Blasio has a nice family. Anyone who gags when they see has more of a problem than Di Blasio does.

133 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:00:53pm

re: #121 Kragar

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

What a lame defense.

134 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:02:18pm

re: #133 makeitstop

What a lame defense.

They’ll arrange for a notpology to be issued during the last minute of the next broadcast of “60 Minutes”. (Which Colbert skewered last night.)

135 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:03:34pm

re: #130 HappyWarrior

Fact is Fischer and all these guys want this to be a white Christian male dominated country. They don’t even try to hide that.

Yep, and his tweet is essentially to say, “See, I told you everything will all go horribly wrong if we let anyone but white Christian males run things.” I can’t believe going on his show is a requirement for GOP Presidential candidates.

No, wait. I can.

136 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:03:44pm

So according to Cohen, Christie can’t win because “conventional” people vomit at the sight of an interracial marriage. And according to Caribou Barbie, Christie can’t win because he’s fat.

The 2016 GOP primaries are going to be a hilarious freak show.

137 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:04:14pm

re: #118 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Yeah pesky facts. And typical of Fischer to blame women and gays who are more likely to be the subject of sexual assaults than the perpetrators of such assaults. Fischer really shouldn’t be talking about the military at all honestly. He lost any credibility to speak on that subject when he dismissed a CMOH winner because the man saved lives rather than killed a bunch of people.

138 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:04:23pm

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

I think, on the basis of this review alone, I’d go see “12 Years a Slave” if I had to choose. The others are mind candy, no doubt, and even if I do want to see Gravity, I could wait for it. “12 Years” might not be around that long.

newyorker.com

139 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:04:51pm

re: #136 Lidane

So according to Cohen, Christie can’t win because “conventional” people vomit at the sight of an interracial marriage. And according to Caribou Barbie, Christie can’t win because he’s fat.

The 2016 GOP primaries are going to be a hilarious freak show.

Honestly if “conventional” people vomit at interracial marriages, i don’t want to be “conventional.”

140 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:05:03pm

re: #136 Lidane

So according to Cohen, Christie can’t win because “conventional” people vomit at the sight of an interracial marriage. And according to Caribou Barbie, Christie can’t win because he’s fat.

The 2016 GOP primaries are going to be a hilarious freak show.

Just like the last… two? Three? More?

Although I’ll grant Cohen this: freak-outs about a hypothetical black baby are soooo 2000.

141 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:05:15pm

re: #121 Kragar

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

Out from the kitchen to the bedroom to the hallway
Your friend apologizes, he could see it my way
He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking
Can’t shake the devil’s hand and say you’re only kidding

They Might be Giants, “Your Racist Friend”

Youtube Video

142 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:06:03pm

re: #134 Feline Fearless Leader

They’ll arrange for a notpology to be issued during the last minute of the next broadcast of “60 Minutes”. (Which Colbert skewered last night.)

So, is the process of analysis of a mistake, after which you offer a ‘notpology’ for your transgressions a ‘notopsy’?

This could have other uses, like the GOP’s lack of introspection in response to losing to Obama (AGAIN!).

143 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:06:27pm

re: #136 Lidane

So according to Cohen, Christie can’t win because “conventional” people vomit at the sight of an interracial marriage. And according to Caribou Barbie, Christie can’t win because he’s fat.

The 2016 GOP primaries are going to be a hilarious freak show.

12 months ago I was totally burned out on politics. Starting to look forward again. Where is my fuckn’ Nate Silver??

144 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:06:34pm

re: #140 erik_t

Just like the last… two? Three? More?

Although I’ll grant Cohen this: freak-outs about a hypothetical black baby are soooo 2000 1960.

Improved.

145 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:07:35pm

Honestly what we need to be discussing is how more of us can grow fros like Mayor elect DiBlasio’s son. That thing is on a Polamalu level of awesomeness.

146 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:08:14pm

re: #140 erik_t

Just like the last… two? Three? More?

Although I’ll grant Cohen this: freak-outs about a hypothetical black baby are soooo 2000.

2000 wasn’t a freak show (there was effectively no GOP primary in 2004).

147 Lidane  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:09:06pm

re: #140 erik_t

Just like the last… two? Three? More?

Although I’ll grant Cohen this: freak-outs about a hypothetical black baby are soooo 2000.

Especially after 5+ years of having a bi-racial POTUS in the White House.

Cohen is an established racist toolbag, but if he’s calling racist freakouts about interracial marriage conventional in 2013, he’s hopelessly lost in post-Civil War America.

148 erik_t  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:09:43pm

re: #146 Dark_Falcon

2000 wasn’t a freak show (there was effectively no GOP primary in 2004).

.

An unidentified party began a semi-underground smear campaign against McCain, delivered by push polls, faxes, e-mails, flyers, audience plants, and the like.[14][15] These claimed most famously that he had fathered a black child out of wedlock (the McCains’ dark-skinned daughter Bridget was adopted from Bangladesh; this misrepresentation was thought to be an especially effective slur in a Deep South state where race was still central[49]), but also that his wife Cindy was a drug addict, that he was a homosexual, and that he was a “Manchurian Candidate” traitor or mentally unstable from his North Vietnam POW days.[14][48] The Bush campaign strongly denied any involvement with these attacks;[48] Bush said he would fire anyone who ran defamatory push polls.[55] During a break in a debate, Bush put his hand on McCain’s arm and reiterated that he had no involvement in the attacks; McCain replied, “Don’t give me that shit. And take your hands off me.”[47]

Did I just imagine that? Because, y’know, I kind of remember all of that happening.

149 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:10:11pm

re: #146 Dark_Falcon

2000 wasn’t a freak show (there was effectively no GOP primary in 2004).

Weren’t there rumblings in the South Caorlina primary about McCain’s adoptive daughter? and I know Bush himself took flack for speaking at Bob Jones University which at that time had only recently rescinded a long time ban on interracial dating.

150 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:10:34pm

re: #148 erik_t

.

Did I just imagine that? Because, y’know, I kind of remember all of that happening.

Beat me to it dude.

151 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:10:34pm

Summer is icumin in.

152 calochortus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:12:40pm

So, I haven’t read all the posts yet, and this may have been covered, but as a matter of interest is it the sexual relations between races that makes people gag, or the fact they are forming a loving, stable, legal family? ‘Cause if it’s the former, I’d like to know where all our lighter skinned “blacks” came from. //

And need I add, what a moron.

153 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:13:02pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Summer is icumin in.

Youtube Video

Upding for “The Wicker Man” reference. One of my favorite films. The original, not the Cage remake.

154 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:13:38pm

re: #148 erik_t

re: #149 HappyWarrior

But Bush and McCain weren’t (and still aren’t) freaks. Michele Bachmann, Ron Paul, Ted Cruz, those are freaks.

155 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:14:09pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Summer is icumin in.

*Looks at thermometer on deck. 39 degrees. Kicks Deb*

156 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:15:16pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Summer is icumin in.

Take it back—thinking of the old song.

www-personal.umich.edu

Hi, Summer.

157 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:15:17pm

re: #154 Dark_Falcon

But Bush and McCain weren’t (and still aren’t) freaks. Michele Bachmann, Ron Paul, Ted Cruz, those are freaks.

Well we were talking about race baiting in the GOP primaries I thought. No, Bush and McCain aren’t like Bachmann, Paul, and Cruz. But the fact of the matter that there was a whisper about McCain’s adoptive daughter in 2000 and that Bush or his handlers didn’t see the problem in him speaking at BJU which not only has been racist towards blacks over the years but has shown an extreme hostility to Catholics and Catholicism as well.

158 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:15:27pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

*Looks at thermometer on deck. 39 degrees. Kicks Deb*

Harder.

159 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:15:38pm

re: #154 Dark_Falcon

But Bush and McCain weren’t (and still aren’t) freaks. Michele Bachmann, Ron Paul, Ted Cruz, those are freaks.

Argued that way, I’ll buy that 2000 wasn’t a freakshow. But it did display the unpleasant nature of the GOP, in s different way.

160 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:16:31pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

*Looks at thermometer on deck. 39 degrees. Kicks Deb*

LGF’s premier Elvis SP impersonator just logged in.

161 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:16:56pm
Sumer is icumen in is possibly the oldest canon in print (circa 1226 a.d.) It was written in Middle English.

Plus:

Logged in: Summer

162 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:17:20pm

Ancient Music

Winter is icummen in,
Lhude sing Goddamm.
Raineth drop and staineth slop,
And how the wind doth ramm!
Sing: Goddamm.

Skiddeth bus and sloppeth us,
An ague hath my ham.
Freezeth river, turneth liver,
Damn you, sing: Goddamm.

Goddamm, Goddamm, ‘tis why I am, Goddamm,
So ‘gainst the winter’s balm.

Sing goddamm, damm, sing Goddamm.
Sing goddamm, sing goddamm, DAMM.

Ezra Pound

163 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:17:41pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

*Looks at thermometer on deck. 39 degrees. Kicks Deb*

I had a doctor appointment this morning. Doors on the pickup truck were frozen, so I had to pour water (in 27F temps) to get one of them open. Ten minutes late to appointment.
I’m not going anywhere until it hits at least 50F again…

164 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:18:05pm

re: #159 GeneJockey

Argued that way, I’ll buy that 2000 wasn’t a freakshow. But it did display the unpleasant nature of the GOP, in s different way.

Hardly a high standard either. Besides the observations Erik and I made Re: McCain were attacks on him made by individuals in the South Carolina GOP. Which now that I think about it, I remember the confederate flag being something of an issue that year too.

165 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:18:42pm

re: #162 GeneJockey

Ancient Music

Ezra Pound

Even fascist sympathizers get somethings right. Not looking forward to winter at all here.

166 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:19:47pm

re: #165 HappyWarrior

Even fascist sympathizers get somethings right. Not looking forward to winter at all here.

We get two seasons—Cool and Hell. just starting Cool.

167 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:19:52pm

It’s windy too.

168 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:20:25pm

re: #166 Decatur Deb

We get two seasons—Cool and Hell. just starting Cool.

We get hell, deep space, cool, warm and WTF.

169 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:21:14pm

re: #168 Varek Raith

We get hell, deep space, cool, warm and WTF.

Mostly WTF.

170 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:21:22pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

Hardly a high standard either. Besides the observations Erik and I made Re: McCain were attacks on him made by individuals in the South Carolina GOP. Which now that I think about it, I remember the confederate flag being something of an issue that year too.

Oh, lord no! Just not a ‘Freakshow’ in the ‘Freaks On Parade’/Clown Car genre.

But the success of a whispering campaign, based on racist reactions to a lie that was implied rather than stated says something disturbing about both the ones who thought such a tactic was acceptable AND the party base on whom it worked. Slime on one side, racism on the other.

171 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:21:39pm

re: #159 GeneJockey

Argued that way, I’ll buy that 2000 wasn’t a freakshow. But it did display the unpleasant nature of the GOP, in s different way.

That I can accept, though I think it says more about South Carolina.

172 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:22:09pm

re: #89 Kragar

If you’re wondering how they eat or breathe or other science facts, you should say to yourself “Its just a show. I should really just relax.”

I tend to get at least mildly annoyed when I get pulled out of the illusion by blatantly wrong depictions of certain things. Like when the main character successfully “hacks” into the Evil Government/Megacorp database by typing “OVERRIDE SECURITY{enter}” and if prompted for a password, it is invariably the name or nickname of the main villain’s tragically deceased loved one. Or when being shot by handguns causes cars to explode and flip several times, after which the driver climbs out of the car with an inconsequential cut over his eyebrow.

173 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:22:12pm

Virginia’s seasons are “Cold and Wet,” “Hot and Wet,” “Cold and Dry,” and “FUCKING FREEZING!”

174 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:22:12pm

re: #169 HappyWarrior

Mostly WTF.

70s one day, 30s the next.
Yep.

175 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:22:53pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

That I can accept, though I think it says more about South Carolina.

What does it say about the GOP when they choose to pander to the worst of that place?

176 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:23:11pm

re: #174 Varek Raith

70s one day, 30s the next.
Yep.

Yep totally expecting it to feel like Spring on Thanksgiving.

177 freetoken  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:23:33pm

I have to suppress a “gag reflex” every time I see someone claim that the WaPo is a “liberal” newspaper.

178 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:23:44pm

The Mid-Atlantic, North America’s climatological toilet.

179 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:23:51pm

re: #175 Interesting Times

What does it say about the GOP when they choose to pander to the worst of that place?

“Good guys finish last”?
// :p

180 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:23:52pm

re: #9 makeitstop

Cohen should seriously consider retirement. Submitting a column like this for publication shows a serious lack of good judgment.

It doesn’t say much for the editors that allowed it to be printed either.

181 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:23:54pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

That I can accept, though I think it says more about South Carolina.

As the GOP increasingly devolves into a regional, southern party, what it says about South Carolina is increasingly applicable to the GOP as a whole.

182 Summer Seale  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:24:01pm

I haven’t commented in probably a year, but I still read LGF a few times a day.

I find myself in the absolutely unenviable position of having to defend that comment from Richard Cohen, while not defending Richard Cohen himself.

I shall explain:

I think he is absolutely right. If you take what he said to be simply a description of how many conservatives think, I think he’s right on the money. I think that it is clear, after the last few years, that they do really gag at the sight of a biracial couple. Before Obama was elected, it was a hidden emotion which many had. But now, they have been emboldened by leaps in technology which has facilitated the conversations between racists to find common ground and band together. They have a cause and, more importantly, they no longer are the odd one out in “polite” society.

Racists used to be relegated to communicating with small locally produced newsletters (a la Ron Paul) which were absolutely fringe stuff. But now, they can spew their hatred and bigotry online and see that they are no longer alone amongst a local crowd.

Much as the Jihadi has been emboldened by the internet, so too has the racist, the climate change denier, the creationist, and all other manner of crazy fucking wackos who couldn’t find common ground in their local crowd of fifty people. No longer. As their communication grew, so too did the numbers as malaise set in and infected the minds of many more who were on the edge but would never have dreamed of holding these views in public ten or fifteen years ago. Now, the internet has given them the voice they want, and the loudness with which to say it; transforming their voice from online rantings into real life speech. It is an infectious disease and it is indeed growing and strengthening in numbers.

Now as to Richard Cohen himself: His comment, taken on its own, is a simple observation about current conservative thought. However, I don’t find Richard Cohen innocent at all. Given his previous comments on subjects of race and politics, it is clear that he too buys into this bullshit which he accuses others of holding. The observation is true, but it is also true that Richard Cohen is in a perfect position to comment on these thoughts and feelings as he obviously finds common ground with them.

And that makes him a racist bigot in every sense of the word.

Please note that I am not “blaming” the internet for any of this. But with every leap in communications, humans have entered into new phases of outrageous aggression towards each other as they find out how unlike each other they truly can be, and how deep those divisions can seem at times. I think, however, that the saving grace will be not only a better conversation which can only be had on the internet, but massive amounts of education, which also cannot be had without the internet. But to do that, entire countries have to sign up on board, drop policies based on race or jingoism, do away with old myths and religious affinities, and come to an agreement en masse to help the situation as a whole.

I do not believe that this will happen soon, and I do fear for the future. But I do know one thing: even if the RIchard Cohens are the near future of a sort of new ruling class, they are not the long term future if humanity is to survive.

I have absolutely no idea what prompted me to reply to this after remaining silent for so very long, but maybe I just felt the need to interject and publicly call it how I see it.

183 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:25:17pm

re: #177 freetoken

I have to suppress a “gag reflex” every time I see someone claim that the WaPo is a “liberal” newspaper.

Yeah, I think the idea that the Post is “liberal” comes from the Woodward and Bernstein days. during Watergate. It definitely is NOT liberal the way the Times is conservative.

184 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:25:17pm

re: #172 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I tend to get at least mildly annoyed when I get pulled out of the illusion by blatantly wrong depictions of certain things. Like when the main character successfully “hacks” into the Evil Government/Megacorp database by typing “OVERRIDE SECURITY{enter}” and >if prompted for a password, it is invariably the name or nickname of the main villain’s tragically deceased loved one. Or when being shot by handguns causes cars to explode and flip several times, after which the driver climbs out of the car with an inconsequential cut over his eyebrow.

There is an old article on Cracked.com (which I can’t look up from here, because firewall) which listed a bunch of HILARIOUS HOLLYWOOD TECH BLOOPERS. There was one example of some government secure system that made its firewall like a FREAKING GAME and if you won the game, you could enter, and an episode of NCIS where Abby and McGee were pounding on one keyboard.

185 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:25:39pm

re: #174 Varek Raith

70s one day, 30s the next.
Yep.

Welcome to Michigan.

186 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:25:40pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

The Mid-Atlantic, North America’s climatological toilet.

The Mid-Atlantic, getting the worst weather of the North and South.

187 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:25:54pm

re: #175 Interesting Times

What does it say about the GOP when they choose to pander to the worst of that place?

This is what I was thinking as well.

188 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:26:23pm

re: #175 Interesting Times

What does it say about the GOP when they choose to pander to the worst of that place?

It says that the primary calender should be moved to take away South Carolina’s early position. It also says that that whoever launched that bunch of lies should have accepted a longer race instead fueling bigotry, and George W. erred in not stomping on that load of bilge with both feet.

189 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:26:31pm

re: #184 Vicious Babushka

cracked.com

190 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:27:40pm

Honestly Re: South Carolina, what more does it say that Lee Atwater worked for in some form of capacity for the last three Republican Presidents.

191 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:29:12pm

re: #182 Summer Seale

Welcome back!

I see what you’re saying, I think, but there is evidence for a different evaluation.

When I read this, my inclination was to give Cohen the benefit of the doubt. He wasn’t describing his feelings as much as he was trying to offer a portrait of the socially conservative voters who dominate the Republican Party. But, thinking about it, that’s a bit too generous. For starters, it begins with an assertion of Cohen’s opinion: “Today’s GOP is not racist.” That frames the rest of the paragraph as coming from his perspective, a perspective which holds that “People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex” when considering an interracial couple.

It’s an odd way to start a sentence. If social conservatives opposed interracial marriage, then—by definition—they’d be racists! As it stands, they don’t. According to a Gallup survey released this summer, 87 percent of Americans “approve” of marriage between blacks and whites, including 84 percent of the latter.

As soon as you consider the reality of public opinion, Cohen’s paragraph looks a lot less like description and a lot more like projection.

Emphasis added.

192 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:29:17pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

It says that the primary calender should be moved to take away South Carolina’s early position. It also says that that whoever launched that bunch of lies should have accepted a longer race instead fueling bigotry, and George W. erred in not stomping on that load of bilge with both feet.

Iowa’s given some doozies as well. Like the man they chose in 2008. Mike “I actually think boys will pretend to be transgender to use the ladies’ room” Huckabee. Or Rick Santorum who somehow thinks wanting all American kids to have a chance at post-secondary education makes the POTUS a snob.

193 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:30:17pm

the soft acoustic guitar music comes up in the background of the ad for viagra, a soft focus, cuddly paen to intimacy and a happy marriage at midlife. the music is the rolling stones ‘sweet virginia’

as the couple tussles playfully on the beach on the tv in the background while i’m getting ready for work, i quietly sing along with the chorus:

“you’ve got to scrape the shit right off your shoes”

194 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:30:23pm

re: #191 wrenchwench

Welcome back!

I see what you’re saying, I think, but there is evidence for a different evaluation.

Emphasis added.

Yes, I think Cohen was projecting his own views on to “conventional Americans.” No doubt there are people like that out there who coil at the thought of interracial dating and couples but there are a slim minority and Cohen was IMO projecting his own intolerance on to Americans.

195 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:30:43pm

re: #182 Summer Seale

Welcome back. You sound worried, but shitsticks alway ultimately fuck themselves—because they’re shitsticks. Sometimes it takes a while, like if it’s in the brain stem.

196 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:30:56pm

re: #189 Varek Raith

cracked.com

Dear Zod, that’s horrible.
Wow.

197 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:32:48pm

re: #80 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

I suddenly had a vision of treating these assholes the same way the Hulk treated Loki in The Avengers.

198 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:33:12pm
199 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:33:53pm

SARAH: You’re fat!
CHRIS: And you’re stupid! I can lose weight, but you will always be stupid!*

*Shamelessly plagiarized by Winston Churchill’s famous response to a lady who pearl-clutched that he was drunk.

200 Mattand  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:34:30pm

re: #136 Lidane

So according to Cohen, Christie can’t win because “conventional” people vomit at the sight of an interracial marriage. And according to Caribou Barbie, Christie can’t win because he’s fat.

The 2016 GOP primaries are going to be a hilarious freak show.

This is brilliant.

201 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:34:35pm

Notice that Robert Stacy McCain and Richard Cohen are making precisely the same point: that reactionary racism (and homophobia) are “natural” reactions to social change — and that it’s not actually racism.

Yikes.

202 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:34:54pm

re: #182 Summer Seale

I’ve been saying something similar, that AM Hate Radio, and now the internet, allow people to openly think and say things that 30 years ago would have isolated them socially. Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. made it okay to believe and to say things you used to be afraid to let anyone know you were thinking, and for good reason.

One wingnut I knew said that almost literally about Limbaugh, that when he first heard his radio show, that FINALLY there was somebody SAYING the things he’d been THINKING.

203 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:38:09pm

re: #182 Summer Seale

I haven’t commented in probably a year, but I still read LGF a few times a day.

I find myself in the absolutely unenviable position of having to defend that comment from Richard Cohen, while not defending Richard Cohen himself.

I shall explain:

I think he is absolutely right. If you take what he said to be simply a description of how many conservatives think, I think he’s right on the money. I think that it is clear, after the last few years, that they do really gag at the sight of a biracial couple. Before Obama was elected, it was a hidden emotion which many had. But now, they have been emboldened by leaps in technology which has facilitated the conversations between racists to find common ground and band together. They have a cause and, more importantly, they no longer are the odd one out in “polite” society.

Racists used to be relegated to communicating with small locally produced newsletters (a la Ron Paul) which were absolutely fringe stuff. But now, they can spew their hatred and bigotry online and see that they are no longer alone amongst a local crowd.

Much as the Jihadi has been emboldened by the internet, so too has the racist, the climate change denier, the creationist, and all other manner of crazy fucking wackos who couldn’t find common ground in their local crowd of fifty people. No longer. As their communication grew, so too did the numbers as malaise set in and infected the minds of many more who were on the edge but would never have dreamed of holding these views in public ten or fifteen years ago. Now, the internet has given them the voice they want, and the loudness with which to say it; transforming their voice from online rantings into real life speech. It is an infectious disease and it is indeed growing and strengthening in numbers.

Now as to Richard Cohen himself: His comment, taken on its own, is a simple observation about current conservative thought. However, I don’t find Richard Cohen innocent at all. Given his previous comments on subjects of race and politics, it is clear that he too buys into this bullshit which he accuses others of holding. The observation is true, but it is also true that Richard Cohen is in a perfect position to comment on these thoughts and feelings as he obviously finds common ground with them.

And that makes him a racist bigot in every sense of the word.

Please note that I am not “blaming” the internet for any of this. But with every leap in communications, humans have entered into new phases of outrageous aggression towards each other as they find out how unlike each other they truly can be, and how deep those divisions can seem at times. I think, however, that the saving grace will be not only a better conversation which can only be had on the internet, but massive amounts of education, which also cannot be had without the internet. But to do that, entire countries have to sign up on board, drop policies based on race or jingoism, do away with old myths and religious affinities, and come to an agreement en masse to help the situation as a whole.

I do not believe that this will happen soon, and I do fear for the future. But I do know one thing: even if the RIchard Cohens are the near future of a sort of new ruling class, they are not the long term future if humanity is to survive.

I have absolutely no idea what prompted me to reply to this after remaining silent for so very long, but maybe I just felt the need to interject and publicly call it how I see it.

As ever, Summer, your views are smart and very welcome.

204 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:38:26pm

re: #202 GeneJockey

I’ve been saying something similar, that AM Hate Radio, and now the internet, allow people to openly think and say things that 30 years ago would have isolated them socially. Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. made it okay to believe and to say things you used to be afraid to let anyone know you were thinking, and for good reason.

One wingnut I knew said that almost literally about Limbaugh, that when he first heard his radio show, that FINALLY there was somebody SAYING the things he’d been THINKING.

Which is probably why the first line of defense for Rush is “Oh he’s just not politically correct, you libtard.” I for one am on record of saying sometimes PC goes too far but what Limbaugh does isn’t politically incorrect. No, what Limbaugh does is play to people’s intolerance and bigotry whether that subject is African Americans, gays, immigrants, or single women. And his reward for doing that? Well Republican politicos treat him like a serious voice. There’s something worng with that and I agree with you those guys you bring up say stuff that a generation ago would have gotten them ostracized. They speak to while one part of society continues to evolve and accept societal change, there’s another that has grown more reactionary with it. I mean I look at a guy like Bryan Fischer who I really do think is even more reactionary than Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are and were.

205 Summer Seale  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:38:49pm

re: #191 wrenchwench

Hey there,

I’ve seen that report as well but I think it is greatly flawed. I’m sure you are aware of the following story from a while back:

Poll: 46 Percent of Mississippi GOP Want to Ban Interracial Marriage.

I think that’s more in line with the real face of the GOP today. Maybe it is somewhere in between, but that’s still a hell of a lot of racists out there and goodness knows what else.

While young kids have no problems with it overall, and with gay marriage, there are still two generations or more living today in which many do see a problem with it and felt that they simply couldn’t express it without being completely ostracized. That is slowly changing within their age group, I fear.

Now I really do have to go and make that extremely late dinner (22:38 here in Israel). So perhaps the debate will wait for another time. =)

206 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:39:27pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

Dear Zod, that’s horrible.
Wow.

I saw a show last month where a guy was saying his IP address had numbers in the 300 range

207 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:39:46pm

Racism really seems to be so deeply embedded in paleo conservatism as to be impossible to extricate them from one another.

I noticed not too long ago that the loathsome Steve Sailer from VDARE is now blogging at The American Conservative (which for awhile I had hoped would be a sane alternative to NRO online. Alas, it is not to be).

In any event, if this does not get Cohen canned…then res ipsa loquitur.

208 KiTA  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:40:44pm

How does this guy still have a job?

209 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:41:14pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

Dear Zod, that’s horrible.
Wow.

Oh, suspend your disbelief, ferchrissakes!
///////////////////

Seriously, it’s the only way that I can watch any TV show or movie that even wanders near Biotech. But that’s also true of fencing, archery, and a bunch of other things. You know, like “Arrows don’t kill that way, dumbass!! You bleed out, and that only happens quickly if you hit a major artery! And they don’t just stick in you! Ideally they pass through! GAHHHH!!!”

210 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:41:56pm

re: #205 Summer Seale

Hey there,

I’ve seen that report as well but I think it is greatly flawed. I’m sure you are aware of the following story from a while back:

Poll: 46 Percent of Mississippi GOP Want to Ban Interracial Marriage.

I think that’s more in line with the real face of the GOP today. Maybe it is somewhere in between, but that’s still a hell of a lot of racists out there and goodness knows what else.

While young kids have no problems with it overall, and with gay marriage, there are still two generations or more living today in which many do see a problem with it and felt that they simply couldn’t express it without being completely ostracized. That is slowly changing within their age group, I fear.

Now I really do have to go and make that extremely late dinner (22:38 here in Israel). So perhaps the debate will wait for another time. =)

I really, really despise the term ‘inter-racial’. There is no such thing at all. You are human or you are not…but there are no separate ‘races’ in humanity.

211 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:42:10pm

re: #206 Kragar

I saw a show last month where a guy was saying his IP address had numbers in the 300 range

He must be really special!

212 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:43:10pm

re: #209 GeneJockey

Oh, suspend your disbelief, ferchrissakes!
///////////////////

Seriously, it’s the only way that I can watch any TV show or movie that even wanders near Biotech. But that’s also true of fencing, archery, and a bunch of other things. You know, like “Arrows don’t kill that way, dumbass!! You bleed out, and that only happens quickly if you hit a major artery! And they don’t just stick in you! Ideally they pass through! GAHHHH!!!”

Heh don’t get me started on historical stuff. I think people have watched Braveheart and gotten the idea that William Wallace’s FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM was for a democracy. Nah just for one other tyrannical absolute monarch to rule rather than another but at least that one knew the power of haggis!

213 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:43:17pm
214 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:43:44pm

This seems awesome to me.

So just as hip-hop tried to defang the n-word by adopting it, Kayne West is trying to do the same with the confederate battle flag. Who knows if it will work, but I’m smiling as I picture various teabaggers heads exploding as a hip hop egomaniac takes their flag for his own purposes.

215 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:44:04pm

re: #209 GeneJockey

Oh, suspend your disbelief, ferchrissakes!
///////////////////

Seriously, it’s the only way that I can watch any TV show or movie that even wanders near Biotech. But that’s also true of fencing, archery, and a bunch of other things. You know, like “Arrows don’t kill that way, dumbass!! You bleed out, and that only happens quickly if you hit a major artery! And they don’t just stick in you! Ideally they pass through! GAHHHH!!!”

Patriot Arrow™

216 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:44:19pm

re: #206 Kragar

I saw a show last month where a guy was saying his IP address had numbers in the 300 range

His bits went all the way to 11…
:p

217 Bulworth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:44:29pm

The only thing racist about this is you people calling me racist!!! UR the real racists, racists!!!

218 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:44:37pm

re: #214 Ian G.

This seems awesome to me.

So just as hip-hop tried to defang the n-word by adopting it, Kayne West is trying to do the same with the confederate battle flag. Who knows if it will work, but I’m smiling as I picture various teabaggers heads exploding as a hip hop egomaniac takes their flag for his own purposes.

Heh I can’t stand West but I’m interested in seeing how this works out.

219 ausador  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:44:40pm

re: #121 Kragar

WAPO responds: “Oops!”

Who would have thought that allowing one of our writers to publish an article that said seeing a white man married to a Negress and raising half-breed children was nauseating could be so controversial?

220 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:45:27pm

re: #210 Aunty Entity Dragon

I really, really despise the term ‘inter-racial’. There is no such thing at all. You are human or you are not…but there are no separate ‘races’ in humanity.

Not only that, but we’re not anywhere near as genetically diverse as we should be for a species our age. We went through a genetic bottleneck about 70,000 years ago (possibly due to the Toba supervolcano eruption) and that left us surprisingly homogeneous as a species.

221 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:45:29pm

re: #199 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

SARAH: You’re fat!
CHRIS: And you’re stupid! I can lose weight, but you will always be stupid!*

*Shamelessly plagiarized by Winston Churchill’s famous response to a lady who pearl-clutched that he was drunk.

You know, I really wish he’d say that. People would hate him for it, but it would be a glorious thing to see Princess Dumbass of the North Woods get the smackdown she so richly deserves.

222 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:46:48pm
Richard Cohen says that his latest piece was not intended to be and shouldn’t be read as racist.

“The word racist is truly hurtful,”
he told The Huffington Post on Tuesday. “It’s not who I am. It’s not who I ever was. It’s just not fair. It’s just not right.”

The Washington Post columnist came under fire on Tuesday for writing that “people with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children.” He insisted that he was expressing the views of some people within the Tea Party and not his own.

“I didn’t write one line, I wrote a column,” Cohen said. “The column is about Tea Party extremism and I was not expressing my views, I was expressing the views of what I think some people in the Tea Party held.”

And those views are not held by the entire Tea Party. “I don’t think everybody in the Tea Party is like that, because I know there are blacks in the Tea Party,” he said. “So they’re not all racist, unless I’m going to start doing mind reading about why those black people are there.”

When asked if he believed that people who do “have a gag reflex” at the idea of interracial marriage are in fact racist, he said that he did. “I could have picked a better word, but it didn’t ring any bells with anybody, it didn’t ring any bells with me,” he continued. “But there is a context to the column. You’ve got to read the whole column and if you read the whole column you can’t honestly think that these are my views or I endorse the views that I articulated in the column.”

[…]

Right. And saying, ‘You people in mixed marriages make folks wanna gag’ is not hurtful.

223 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:47:30pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

Dear Zod, that’s horrible.
Wow.

I’ve taken to writing off tech illiteracy in fiction as the product of needing to write for the lowest-common denominator. Make things “accessible” by assuming most viewers of a movie/TV show built around tech have IQs in the room-temp range.

224 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:47:43pm

re: #214 Ian G.

This seems awesome to me.

So just as hip-hop tried to defang the n-word by adopting it, Kayne West is trying to do the same with the confederate battle flag. Who knows if it will work, but I’m smiling as I picture various teabaggers heads exploding as a hip hop egomaniac takes their flag for his own purposes.

I think he’s just trying to get attention.

225 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:48:02pm
“I don’t think everybody in the Tea Party is like that, because I know there are blacks in the Tea Party,”

He forgot “some of my best friends are blacks in the tea party”.

226 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:48:50pm

re: #182 Summer Seale

Please note that I am not “blaming” the internet for any of this. But with every leap in communications, humans have entered into new phases of outrageous aggression towards each other as they find out how unlike each other they truly can be, and how deep those divisions can seem at times.

I’m thinking of the chaos that infected Europe after the invention of the printing press. Culminated in The Thirty Years War that killed half of what is now Germany. The other countries didn’t get off lightly either.

I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that this time. But, humans, ya know?

227 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:49:22pm

re: #221 Dark_Falcon

You know, I really wish he’d say that. People would hate him for it, but it would be a glorious thing to see Princess Dumbass of the North Woods get the smackdown she so richly deserves.

Churchill allegedly said “And you’re ugly! Tomorrow I shall be sober, and you will still be ugly!”

228 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:50:15pm

re: #83 Decatur Deb

Gravity was worth it as an experience, though it really isn’t a drama—the plot is simply “get from here to there to there to there alive”. There is no conflict or villain, unless you count the un-mentioned trainer responsible for sending Sandra Bullock into space. The visuals are spectacular, the 3D is actually justified, and the detail is mostly realistic, except for a single, critical, error that moves the action. (No spoiler, but refresh your Newton.) The best argument for the film is that you might still think about it a few days later.

Gravity (IMHO) is the best movie I have yet seen this year, and certainly the best space adventure (not really sci fi) made. You can argue about the orbital mechanics issues it has along with the scene you mentioned, but it delves into spirituality and the resilience of the human spirit without seeming preachy.

*****spoilers*****

The re-entry scene was astonishing, beautiful, and terrifying beyond my ability to describe. Rank sentimentalist that I am, I was weeping openly (if quietly) the last 15 minutes of the movie.

229 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:50:35pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

Right. And saying, ‘You people in mixed marriages make folks wanna gag’ is not hurtful.

Cohen’s argument seems to amount to declaring that he doesn’t like the term “racist” and so tries to excuse racist beliefs by saying that the people who hold them are just “conventional.”

230 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:50:37pm

re: #227 Vicious Babushka

Churchill allegedly said “And you’re ugly! Tomorrow I shall be sober, and you will still be ugly!”

Yeah i remember that one. I still like the one he had about Attlee, a man who I actually like more than Churchill as a whole- “He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.” Still would have voted for Clem over Win in ‘45 had I been around but that’s a great diss.

231 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:50:45pm

The sun is toying with me, as it occasionally peeks from behind clouds and floods the kitchen with a promise of warmth.
It lies.
And the kittehs are displeased that their solar spots keep disappearing. They are giving me the stinkeye like it’s all my fault.

grumble grumble…

232 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:51:00pm

re: #223 Targetpractice

I’ve taken to writing off tech illiteracy in fiction as the product of needing to write for the lowest-common denominator. Make things “accessible” by assuming most viewers of a movie/TV show built around tech have IQs in the room-temp range.

I think it’s the writers not having a clue. And not wanting to hire (and then listen to) a technical specialist that will tell them that their clean solution would not work so that they can wrap their episode in 50 minutes (or less).

And a 30-second tech picture montage saves them time from trying to write more dialogue or plot.

233 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:51:29pm

re: #212 HappyWarrior

Heh don’t get me started on historical stuff. I think people have watched Braveheart and gotten the idea that William Wallace’s FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM was for a democracy. Nah just for one other tyrannical absolute monarch to rule rather than another but at least that one knew the power of haggis!

I can’t stand to read novels or watch movies about teh religious Juice, because THEY ALWAYS GET SOMETHING WRONG ALWAYS.

Although last week’s South Park about the pora adumah was epic.

234 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:51:54pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Summer is icumin in.

People have been singing “cuckoo” too lewdly.

235 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:52:06pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

Right. And saying, ‘You people in mixed marriages make folks wanna gag’ is not hurtful.

As I said, he seems to have projected his own views here. And honestly the TP isn’t “conventional America.” If they were, conventional America would have expressed a more favorable view of them. Di-Blaiso’s NYC is more closer to “conventional America” than the homologous areas many TPers live in.

236 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:52:59pm

re: #233 Vicious Babushka

I can’t stand to read novels or watch movies about teh religious Juice, because THEY ALWAYS GET SOMETHING WRONG ALWAYS.

Although last week’s South Park about the pora adumah was epic.

I liked seeing the rabbis, priests, and imams rocking to Van Halen. And the fact that prophecy was a fat kid with a small dick would paint a cow ginger. Poor Kyle though but at least Cartman got mocked again.

237 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:54:17pm

re: #232 Feline Fearless Leader

I think it’s the writers not having a clue. And not wanting to hire (and then listen to) a technical specialist that will tell them that their clean solution would not work so that they can wrap their episode in 50 minutes (or less).

And a 30-second tech picture montage saves them time from trying to write more dialogue or plot.

It’s more a case of “Tech For Dummies.” Assuming that their viewers have no idea what “pinging” is, what a “firewall” is for, or that tracking a person down via a “trace” is not as easy as getting an IP address. It’s like saying they can pinpoint a person’s cellphone just because they know which cell tower they were next to during the call.

238 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:54:51pm

re: #212 HappyWarrior

Heh don’t get me started on historical stuff. I think people have watched Braveheart and gotten the idea that William Wallace’s FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM was for a democracy. Nah just for one other tyrannical absolute monarch to rule rather than another but at least that one knew the power of haggis!

I should point out that the Scots issued the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 which has a number of parallels to our own founding documents.

The Declaration made a number rhetorical points: that Scotland had always been independent, indeed for longer than England; that Edward I of England had unjustly attacked Scotland and perpetrated atrocities; that Robert the Bruce had delivered the Scottish nation from this peril; and, most controversially, that the independence of Scotland was the prerogative of the Scottish people, rather than the King of Scots. In fact it stated that the nobility would choose someone else to be king if Bruce proved to be unfit in maintaining Scotland’s independence. Some have interpreted this last point as an early expression of ‘popular sovereignty’[4] - that government is contractual and that kings can be chosen by the community rather than by God alone.

239 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:55:22pm
240 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:55:58pm

re: #225 Ian G.

He forgot “some of my best friends are blacks in the tea party”.

That guy’s dance card must be full.

241 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:57:12pm

re: #206 Kragar

I saw a show last month where a guy was saying his IP address had numbers in the 300 range

192.168.1.1
192+168+1+1 = 362.

SCIENCE!

242 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:57:55pm

re: #204 HappyWarrior

It has been my experience that when people like Rush complain about ‘political correctness’ they are really complaining it isn’t their type of ‘political correctness.’

If it was the ‘political correctness’ of Joseph McCarthy or the KKK they’d have no problem with it.

243 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:58:06pm

For me, the beginning of Gladiator drove me nuts.

“What kind of Roman General would base his battle strategy on a cavalry charge thru a forest, let alone lead it himself?”

244 Weet  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:58:58pm
245 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:58:59pm

I swear this crowd is just itching to overturn just about every single civil rights gain made in the past century.


We now know that Loving v Virginia (1967), and the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts (1964, 1966) are longer safe. We recently have seen instances of these people refusing to honor mixed-marriage ceremonies, and engaging in very Jim Crow-like behavior during elections.

At least 20 years ago, most of them at least attempted to disguise their bigotry. Nowadays? The Dixiecrats have fully taken over the Republican Party, and the Southern Strategy has succeeded beyond their wildest imagination (with the small problem that they lost almost all of their moderates in the bargain, and alienated more than half the population as well).

246 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:59:13pm

re: #238 Aunty Entity Dragon

I should point out that the Scots issued the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 which has a number of parallels to our own founding documents.

That’s less popular sovereignty and more that the nobility chose their king as compared to it being a dynastic succession by blood. Which harks back to pre-dynastic traditions such as the Saxons and others used.

247 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 12:59:46pm

re: #241 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

192.168.1.1
192+168+1+1 = 362.

SCIENCE!

nope, it was something like “Here, copy an entire data center to my server. The IP address is 275.322.98.117. You have 2 minutes!”

248 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:00:02pm

re: #199 Vicious Babushka

It’d be rightfully deserved, but he wont go there. At least not yet.

Meanwhile, Palin’s dropping word salad about how she needs to read up on what the Pope’s really saying with his comments and that she doesn’t trust the media with what Pope Francis has said.

Umm… Sarah, thanks for that wisdom, but @Pontifex has been quite clear about what he’s trying to do and his statements are quite clear on the subject.

There’s this thing called Twitter. I even hear that you’re on it (@SarahPalinUSA). If you followed the Pope, you’d know that the media has been reporting that objectively and you’re just spewing nonsense.

249 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:00:45pm

re: #243 Kragar

For me, the beginning of Gladiator drove me nuts.

“What kind of Roman General would base his battle strategy on a cavalry charge thru a forest, let alone lead it himself?”

I was just amused that the Goths were all yelling a Zulu battle chant.

Youtube Video

250 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:01:14pm

Wingnuts up and down the dial are feverish over O’Keefe’s latest “sting”. Anyone hear anything?

251 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:01:46pm

re: #243 Kragar

For me, the beginning of Gladiator drove me nuts.

“What kind of Roman General would base his battle strategy on a cavalry charge thru a forest, let alone lead it himself?”

Not much more stupid than some of the cavalry charges that actually happened in WWI.

252 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:02:08pm

re: #250 Amory Blaine

Wingnuts up and down the dial are feverish over O’Keefe’s latest “sting”. Anyone hear anything?

Navigators are all ex-ACORN, all corrupt and working for Obama, rinse and repeat.

253 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:02:21pm

re: #246 Feline Fearless Leader

That’s less popular sovereignty and more that the nobility chose their king as compared to it being a dynastic succession by blood. Which harks back to pre-dynastic traditions such as the Saxons and others used.

It still denied the whole “divine right” thing, which was a substantial improvement.

254 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:03:34pm

re: #243 Kragar

For me, the beginning of Gladiator drove me nuts.

“What kind of Roman General would base his battle strategy on a cavalry charge thru a forest, let alone lead it himself?”

It was often said that Rome won battles because of its infantry and lost them because of its cavalry. The two exceptions were Scipio Africanus and Aurelian.

255 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:03:54pm

re: #247 Kragar

nope, it was something like “Here, copy an entire data center to my server. The IP address is 275.322.98.117. You have 2 minutes!”

I guess they couldn’t just use 555-1212.

256 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:04:05pm

re: #250 Amory Blaine

Wingnuts up and down the dial are feverish over O’Keefe’s latest “sting”. Anyone hear anything?

Early this morning on Freep they had O’Keeffe pulling his crap on a NJ navigator, claoming she told customers to fake ther application to improve their premium tax relief, and that a navigator had admitted doing it herself. Could not find much on it a 5 AM.

257 ausador  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:04:49pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

Right. And saying, ‘You people in mixed marriages make folks wanna gag’ is not hurtful.

Don’t forget that he specifically brought their “biracial” children into his article as well, that is considerably more offensive to my mind at least.

258 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:05:24pm

re: #243 Kragar

For me, the beginning of Gladiator drove me nuts.

“What kind of Roman General would base his battle strategy on a cavalry charge thru a forest, let alone lead it himself?”

What drove ME nuts about Gladiator was David Hemmings, whom I remembered as a skinny little guy from the 1973 ‘Three Musketeers’ had grown into a fat old man with Hugh Griffith eyebrows.

259 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:05:47pm

Oh yeah it’s at the top of Drudge.

260 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:06:00pm

re: #248 lawhawk

It’d be rightfully deserved, but he wont go there. At least not yet.

Meanwhile, Palin’s dropping word salad about how she needs to read up on what the Pope’s really saying with his comments and that she doesn’t trust the media with what Pope Francis has said.

Umm… Sarah, thanks for that wisdom, but @Pontifex has been quite clear about what he’s trying to do and his statements are quite clear on the subject.

There’s this thing called Twitter. I even hear that you’re on it (@SarahPalinUSA). If you followed the Pope, you’d know that the media has been reporting that objectively and you’re just spewing nonsense.

If Sarah Palin tried to actually understand the views of Pope Francis her head would explode. He is simply much smarter and far better educated than she is.

261 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:06:03pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

It was often said that Rome won battles because of its infantry and lost them because of its cavalry. The two exceptions were Scipio Africanus and Aurelian.

Celtic light cavalry mercs from Gaul were a standard feature in Julius Caesar’s armies.

262 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:06:22pm

re: #255 GeneJockey

I guess they couldn’t just use 555-1212.

All movie and TV use 555 (non-assigned) prefix for all phone numbers shown on screen, in order to avoid people randomly calling somebody’s real number that they saw on TV.

263 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:06:47pm

re: #256 Decatur Deb

Early this morning on Freep they had O’Keeffe pulling his crap on a NJ navigator, claoming she told customers to fake ther application to improve their premium tax relief, and that a navigator had admitted doing it herself. Could not find much on it a 5 AM.

On the Usual Suspect’s sites:

google.com

264 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:07:33pm
265 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:07:36pm

Here’s the Washington Times take on the latest O’Keefe scam…er “probe”:

Undercover video catches ‘Navigators’ gaming Obamacare

And, predictably…

Cornyn calls for halt to ObamaCare navigators on heels of undercover video

266 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:07:46pm

re: #238 Aunty Entity Dragon

I should point out that the Scots issued the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 which has a number of parallels to our own founding documents.

Right now I’m reading Edith Pargeter’s “Brothers of Gwynedd” quartet, a historical fiction about Llewelyn “The First True Prince of Wales”. It’s set somewhat earlier (1200s) than the Declaration of Arbroath, but she does a good job describing Llewelyn’s own difficulties in dealing with Edward I in establishing Wales as a sovereign entity.

267 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:08:06pm

re: #257 ausador

Don’t forget that he specifically brought their “biracial” children into his article as well, that is considerably more offensive to my mind at least.

But of course the old white man is so much more sensitive than Di Blasio’s kids.

Cohen should apologize to them directly.

268 sagehen  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:08:25pm

re: #255 GeneJockey

I guess they couldn’t just use 555-1212.

867-5309.

269 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:08:29pm

re: #258 GeneJockey

What drove ME nuts about Gladiator was David Hemmings, whom I remembered as a skinny little guy from the 1973 ‘Three Musketeers’ had grown into a fat old man with Hugh Griffith eyebrows.

EDIT: And as it turns out, he wasn’t in The Three Musketeers, so never mind.

270 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:08:45pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

It was often said that Rome won battles because of its infantry and lost them because of its cavalry. The two exceptions were Scipio Africanus and Aurelian.

During the Roman era, cavalry was usually nothing more than scouts or skirmishers, with their fighting being a footnote to the actual battle.

271 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:08:54pm

re: #268 sagehen

867-5309.

“Damn you, Tommy Tutone!”

//

272 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:09:38pm

re: #263 Justanotherhuman

On the Usual Suspect’s sites:

google.com

It’s quite possible he found an idiot, or edited one into his narrative. I’ve been warning local navigators about that shtick, but of course he’d hardly have to come to AL (He did pull crap in LA).

273 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:10:23pm

re: #261 Aunty Entity Dragon

Celtic light cavalry mercs from Gaul were a standard feature in Julius Caesar’s armies.

Correct. The Romans didn’t put much stock in cavalry and usually just had them as auxiliary from allies or as small scout detachments. They would not have been a trusted assault unit led by the legion commander.

274 Ian G.  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:10:35pm

re: #251 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Not much more stupid than some of the cavalry charges everything that actually happened in WWI.

Fixed that for you. I still shake my head at the enormity of the waste of millions of lives and the utter destruction from the Great War. I mean, all wars are like that, but at least some have a point worth fighting for. What the fuck was the point of WWI?

Edit: and the reason I’m pondering WWI is because I always do around Veterans/Armistice/Remembrance Day.

275 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:10:48pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

If Sarah Palin tried to actually understand the views of Pope Francis her head would explode. He is simply much smarter and far better educated than she is.

And I believe Francis understands the basics of Christian behavior better than she does.

276 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:11:48pm

re: #270 Kragar

During the Roman era, cavalry was usually nothing more than scouts or skirmishers, with their fighting being a footnote to the actual battle.

I thought it was strange that the Romans had absolutely no counter to the Parthian light cavalry at the Battle of Carrhae (more like massacre of Carrhae) during the First Triumvirate.

277 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:12:26pm

re: #275 Backwoods_Sleuth

And I believe Francis understands the basics of Christian behavior better than she does.

Of that there is no doubt.

278 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:13:17pm

re: #182 Summer Seale

In response to today’s Summer sighting, I submit to you today’s Sarah Palin impotent outrage/word salad of the day:

Sarah Palin ‘taken aback’ by Pope Francis’s ‘liberal’ statements

Sarah Palin said she is trying to follow Pope Francis, but is wary of what she called the media’s interpretation of his message.

“He’s had some statements that to me sound kind of liberal, has taken me aback, has kind of surprised me,” said Palin. But “unless I really dig deep into what his messaging is, and do my own homework, I’m not going to just trust what I hear in the media.”

279 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:13:42pm

re: #262 Vicious Babushka

All movie and TV use 555 (non-assigned) prefix for all phone numbers shown on screen, in order to avoid people randomly calling somebody’s real number that they saw on TV.

I can’t cite specifics, but I have recently noticed phone exchanges other than 555 being used. I presume they’re still inoperative numbers, but I didn’t bother testing it. It *might* have been Breaking Bad, but I’m not sure.

I wonder if they also use invalid license plate numbers. If you went to your DMV and requested a vanity plate with a number that appeared in a movie, would they reject it?

280 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:14:37pm

re: #276 Aunty Entity Dragon

I thought it was strange that the Romans had absolutely no counter to the Parthian light cavalry at the Battle of Carrhae (more like massacre of Carrhae) during the First Triumvirate.

You also need to remember the Pathinian’s fielded cavalry archers for the most part. They never closed into melee range with the Romans.

281 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:14:42pm

re: #272 Decatur Deb

It’s quite possible he found an idiot, or edited one into his narrative. I’ve been warning local navigators about that shtick, but of course he’d hardly have to come to AL (He did pull crap in LA).

Well, all that shit about Acorn was made up, too. Lots of editing, but because it was you, know, the “Black welfare people”, it was believed by far too many fucking people, including those who should have known better.

Let’s not forget what a criminal O’Keefe is. This is just more racist bullshit from him.

282 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:15:24pm

re: #263 Justanotherhuman

On the Usual Suspect’s sites:

google.com

The first two pages of the return are partisan nutcase sites, until you hit National Review, and it’s debatable.

283 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:16:08pm

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

OK. Thinking of going to see a movie tonight. Looked at the local theater and the likely candidates are “Gravity”, “12 Years a Slave”, or “Thor: The Dark World”. Any recommendations from the Lizards?

I don’t feel any particular need for mind candy at this point, so more serious films are acceptable.

Saw 12 Years a Slave this weekend. An excellent but in places harrowing movie. The performances are top-notch, once you get past Adepero Oduye’s Eliza. If Chiwetel Ejiofor doesn’t get an Oscar nomination for the lead role I’ll be surprised.

By the way, Richard Cohen has weighed in on this movie. Here’s what he said (my bold):

I sometimes think I have spent years unlearning what I learned earlier in my life. For instance, it was not George A. Custer who was attacked at the Little Bighorn. It was Custer — in a bad career move — who attacked the Indians. Much more important, slavery was not a benign institution in which mostly benevolent whites owned innocent and grateful blacks. Slavery was a lifetime’s condemnation to an often violent hell in which people were deprived of life, liberty and, too often, their own children. Happiness could not be pursued after that.

I’d comment on that but I’m suppressing my gag reflex.

284 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:16:25pm

Hey everybody, let’s put on our cardboard boots and charge across this open field through mortar and machine gun fire in order to capture some terrain that we’ll lose tomorrow because we have no way to defend it! Then the other guys will take their turn doing the same thing.

285 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:16:25pm

re: #274 Ian G.

Fixed that for you. I still shake my head at the enormity of the waste of millions of lives and the utter destruction from the Great War. I mean, all wars are like that, but at least some have a point worth fighting for. What the fuck was the point of WWI?

Edit: and the reason I’m pondering WWI is because I always do around Veterans/Armistice/Remembrance Day.

From everything I’ve ever read about WWI, the reason it happened was because everyone expected it to. There was no cause that anyone was fighting for, there was no big, nasty aggressor, there was really no advantage to be gained, and everyone just figured they’d march across the enemy’s territory in a lightning move and it would all be over, and they’d have won, but they didn’t know what that would have meant.

It’s probably mankind’s most colossal fuckup, and whenever I hear people talking about the superiority of Western Culture, I think about WWI.

286 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:16:28pm

re: #276 Aunty Entity Dragon

I thought it was strange that the Romans had absolutely no counter to the Parthian light cavalry at the Battle of Carrhae (more like massacre of Carrhae) during the First Triumvirate.

The Parthians were an exception and in part because much of their land was flat (remember they ruled modern day Iraq). Italy doesn’t have that much flat land and some cavalry was of limited use. As it was the Roman legion’s emergence as a distinctive style of fighting formation was a response to the difficulty Greek-style phalanxes experienced in rolling ground against the swarming tactics of the Gauls.

287 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:16:54pm

re: #278 RadicalModerate

In response to today’s Summer sighting, I submit to you today’s Sarah Palin impotent outrage/word salad of the day:

Sarah Palin ‘taken aback’ by Pope Francis’s ‘liberal’ statements

Perhaps she should get one of her “consultants” to google “Franciscan” to see how conservative they are not.

288 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:17:38pm

re: #268 sagehen

867-5309.

Or to go even further back…

634-5789

289 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:17:49pm

re: #206 Kragar

I saw a show last month where a guy was saying his IP address had numbers in the 300 range

*Theoretically* possible with IPv6, but I seriously doubt that is what he was referring to.

290 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:18:20pm

re: #281 Justanotherhuman

Well, all that shit about Acorn was made up, too. Lots of editing, but because it was you, know, the “Black welfare people”, it was believed by far too many fucking people, including those who should have known better.

Let’s not forget what a criminal O’Keefe is. This is just more racist bullshit from him.

This one’s looking like a replay of the ACORN “sting” videos: Keep shopping the same story around to different Navigators until you find the one whose responses are either stupid or can be spliced to look that way, then characterize them as the rule and not the exception.

291 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:19:28pm

re: #279 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I can’t cite specifics, but I have recently noticed phone exchanges other than 555 being used. I presume they’re still inoperative numbers, but I didn’t bother testing it. It *might* have been Breaking Bad, but I’m not sure.

I wonder if they also use invalid license plate numbers. If you went to your DMV and requested a vanity plate with a number that appeared in a movie, would they reject it?

I’m old enough to remember when the exchange “KLondike 5” was used in cartoons. (Note to the young and untutored: the exchange names were mnemonic, with the first 2 letters of the word being translated into numbers while dialing. So “KLondike 5” was really “555” because K and L are both assigned to the digit 5. Also, fun fact: there used not to be buttons on phones, except for the ones you set the handset on to hang up. Did I mention handsets?)

292 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:19:57pm

re: #280 Kragar

You also need to remember the Pathinian’s fielded cavalry archers for the most part. They never closed into melee range with the Romans.

True, but the Romans were reacting to Parthian moves from the very beginning and never managed to seize initiative, which tells me that they had very poor intel/awareness of enemy tactics and battlefighting strategies. They had insufficient cavalry to deal with the Parthian cavalry, and did not anticipate that their ammunition supply was essentially bottomless.

293 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:20:02pm

re: #282 Decatur Deb

The first two pages of the return are partisan nutcase sites, until you hit National Review, and it’s debatable.

I consider NR a partisan nutcase site, too.

294 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:20:21pm

re: #283 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Saw 12 Years a Slave this weekend. An excellent but in places harrowing movie. The performances are top-notch, once you get past Adepero Oduye’s Eliza. If Chiwetel Ejiofor doesn’t get an Oscar nomination for the lead role I’ll be surprised.

By the way, Richard Cohen has weighed in on this movie. Here’s what he said (my bold):

I’d comment on that but I’m suppressing my gag reflex.

Educated at Far Rockaway HS and Hunter College. I was expecting Klan Kountry Reading Akademy.

295 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:21:10pm
296 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:21:32pm

re: #286 Dark_Falcon

The Roman’s developed the concept of Manipular Cohorts as an adaption of the classical Greek phalanx. Its still with us today as close order drill.

297 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:21:45pm

re: #285 GeneJockey

From everything I’ve ever read about WWI, the reason it happened was because everyone expected it to. There was no cause that anyone was fighting for, there was no big, nasty aggressor, there was really no advantage to be gained, and everyone just figured they’d march across the enemy’s territory in a lightning move and it would all be over, and they’d have won, but they didn’t know what that would have meant.

It’s probably mankind’s most colossal fuckup, and whenever I hear people talking about the superiority of Western Culture, I think about WWI.

You can trace it all back to the “blank cheque” and the incompetence of the German Prime minister who had been promoted beyond his abilities.

298 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:22:11pm

re: #293 Justanotherhuman

I consider NR a partisan nutcase site, too.

Shining star of the conservative intellect.

299 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:22:27pm

re: #294 Decatur Deb

educated at Far Rockaway HS and Hunter College. I was expecting Klan Kountry Reading Akademy.

Me too. In what universe were students in NYC ever taught that slavery was benign and slaves were grateful?

300 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:24:58pm

re: #243 Kragar

For me, the beginning of Gladiator drove me nuts.

“What kind of Roman General would base his battle strategy on a cavalry charge thru a forest, let alone lead it himself?”

The kind that was leading a cavalry heavy Roman army.

(Dawns on me, before I post, that some may not get that. Roman cavalry was an auxiliary force. The eastern empire - aka the Byzantines - changed that by the 6th century AD. But Gladiator takes place in the at the end of the 2d/beginning of the 3d.)

301 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:26:45pm

Fun Fact: The classic Roman javelin, or Pilum, was specifically designed so its point would bend under the weight of its haft. The idea was it would puncture enemy shields, then bend, dragging the shields down, making them harder to remove and could not be thrown back against the Romans.

302 aagcobb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:26:58pm

re: #274 Ian G.

Fixed that for you. I still shake my head at the enormity of the waste of millions of lives and the utter destruction from the Great War. I mean, all wars are like that, but at least some have a point worth fighting for. What the fuck was the point of WWI?

Edit: and the reason I’m pondering WWI is because I always do around Veterans/Armistice/Remembrance Day.

Apparently the final senile temper tantrums of several dynasties.

303 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:27:33pm

re: #284 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Hey everybody, let’s put on our cardboard boots and charge across this open field through mortar and machine gun fire in order to capture some terrain that we’ll lose tomorrow because we have no way to defend it! Then the other guys will take their turn doing the same thing.

Ludendorf and Hindenburg were the first top commanders to really grapple with the problems posed by the tech of the time, at least defensively. They adopted defense in depth tactics on the Western Front at the end of 1916 and the result for France was disastrous.

In the spring of 1917, French Gen. Robert Neville, who had just replaced Joffre, ordered an offensive using new tactics he believed would produce a “rupture” of the German lines. Had it been launched 6 months earlier, it might well have been a decent success, but with the new defensive tactics the Germans adopted it ended up with its major stop line short of the main German force positions.

Neville did have better artillery tactics than previous offensives had used and he made strong efforts to get French 75mm light artillery forward in a timely manner. But all that ended up doing was to have some light guns exposed forward along with the infantry and lost along with many of the foot soldiers when the Germans counter-attacked. The French army suffered its series of mutinies after the offensive was crushed.

304 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:28:15pm

re: #297 Aunty Entity Dragon

You can trace it all back to the “blank cheque” and the incompetence of the German Prime minister who had been promoted beyond his abilities.

It just seemed, reading what people in that era were thinking, as if it was viewed as inevitable, as if war had become an entity all its own, and not ‘a continuation of policy by other means’. I could never find a policy goal that anyone felt was important enough to go to war over, yet everyone seemed convinced that there WOULD BE a war, and by preparing for it, and expecting it, they brought it about.

305 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:29:23pm

re: #301 Kragar

Fun Fact: The classic Roman javelin, or Pilum, was specifically designed so its point would bend under the weight of its haft. The idea was it would puncture enemy shields, then bend, dragging the shields down, making them harder to remove and could not be thrown back against the Romans.

Verus, verus…

306 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:30:44pm

re: #304 GeneJockey

It just seemed, reading what people in that era were thinking, as if it was viewed as inevitable, as if war had become an entity all its own, and not ‘a continuation of policy by other means’. I could never find a policy goal that anyone felt was important enough to go to war over, yet everyone seemed convinced that there WOULD BE a war, and by preparing for it, and expecting it, they brought it about.

Exactomundo.

307 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:31:51pm

LIB POPE fRANsis is A MaRXisT MooSLIM

308 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:32:38pm

re: #292 Aunty Entity Dragon

True, but the Romans were reacting to Parthian moves from the very beginning and never managed to seize initiative, which tells me that they had very poor intel/awareness of enemy tactics and battlefighting strategies. They had insufficient cavalry to deal with the Parthian cavalry, and did not anticipate that their ammunition supply was essentially bottomless.

And there is the fact that Crassus’ main battle experience was against the ex-slave army led by Spartacus, which was by necessity mostly infantry.

309 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:33:15pm

Additionally, movies love to portray ancient battles as huge mobs where warriors are fighting duel after duel across a battle field.

That bugs the shit out of me.

310 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:34:12pm

re: #306 Aunty Entity Dragon

Exactomundo.

Yeah, and I gotta tell you, after studying WWI in the late 1970s, and hearing that many in the Pentagon believed that war with the USSR was inevitable, it gave me a REALLY bad feeling.

Luckily, it turned out to be misplaced.

311 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:34:19pm

re: #309 Kragar

Additionally, movies love to portray ancient battles as huge mobs where warriors are fighting duel after duel across a battle field.

That bugs the shit out of me.

*raises hand* Am I still allowed to like the big fight scene in Highlander?

312 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:34:36pm

re: #304 GeneJockey

It just seemed, reading what people in that era were thinking, as if it was viewed as inevitable, as if war had become an entity all its own, and not ‘a continuation of policy by other means’. I could never find a policy goal that anyone felt was important enough to go to war over, yet everyone seemed convinced that there WOULD BE a war, and by preparing for it, and expecting it, they brought it about.

Many expected a quick little war which they could wrap up in a few weeks, then go home and tell the folks about what they missed out on.

313 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:34:57pm

re: #312 Kragar

Many expected a quick little war which they could wrap up in a few weeks, then go home and tell the folks about what they missed out on.

“Home by Christmas!”

314 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:35:16pm

re: #311 Targetpractice

*raises hand* Am I still allowed to like the big fight scene in Highlander?

Only because of “Why won’t anyone fight me?”

315 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:35:35pm

re: #312 Kragar

Many expected a quick little war which they could wrap up in a few weeks, then go home and tell the folks about what they missed out on.

I’m pretty sure that’s been the story with every major war throughout history, the overconfidence of the men at the top that the war would be short, minor, and the enemy utterly crushed after a single decisive battle.

316 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:37:07pm

re: #315 Targetpractice

I’m pretty sure that’s been the story with every major war throughout history, the overconfidence of the men at the top that the war would be short, minor, and the enemy utterly crushed after a single decisive battle.

Well, in this case, many expected it to get wrapped up even faster because of all the modern marvels, like machine guns and ballistic artillery as opposed to the old fashioned LOS cannons.

317 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:37:41pm

The O’Keeffe ACORN II story is not making much penetration on grown-up news. The Google News return for “O’Keeffe”, gets you a lot on Georgia O’Keeffe (no dirty flowers).

318 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:37:55pm

re: #315 Targetpractice

I’m pretty sure that’s been the story with every major war throughout history, the overconfidence of the men at the top that the war would be short, minor, and the enemy utterly crushed after a single decisive battle.

I think WWI was probably the time when it was most catastrophically wrong, though, with universal conscription leading to everyone dying in the trenches from random falling death, or climbing up out of them to mowed down by the machine guns that their own random falling death had failed to eradicate.

Heartbreaking.

319 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:38:06pm

re: #316 Kragar

Well, in this case, many expected it to get wrapped up even faster because of all the modern marvels, like machine guns and ballistic artillery as opposed to the old fashioned LOS cannons.

And, of course, both sides assumed the other would abide by the gentlemanly rules of war and not employ weapons that could disrupt the “orderly” conduct of war, like poisonous gas.

320 calochortus  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:38:20pm

re: #291 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

I’m old enough to remember when the exchange “KLondike 5” was used in cartoons. (Note to the young and untutored: the exchange names were mnemonic, with the first 2 letters of the word being translated into numbers while dialing. So “KLondike 5” was really “555” because K and L are both assigned to the digit 5. Also, fun fact: there used not to be buttons on phones, except for the ones you set the handset on to hang up. Did I mention handsets?)

I’m old enough to have one of those phones with the dial and the hang-up buttons. Did you know you can actually “dial” numbers by repeatedly pushing those ‘hang up’ buttons?

321 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:39:49pm

re: #319 Targetpractice

And, of course, both sides assumed the other would abide by the gentlemanly rules of war and not employ weapons that could disrupt the “orderly” conduct of war, like poisonous gas.

Austria, a big player, was still sending out corps-sized units commanded by hereditary generals. Always a good idea.

322 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:41:36pm

Still reminded of that scene from The Patriot, of Cornwallis lamenting the targeting of officers and how it would lead to chaotic fighting as soldiers had at each other without orderly guidance.

323 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:43:15pm

I couldn’t resist it…

324 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:44:24pm

re: #318 GeneJockey

I think WWI was probably the time when it was most catastrophically wrong, though, with universal conscription leading to everyone dying in the trenches from random falling death, or climbing up out of them to mowed down by the machine guns that their own random falling death had failed to eradicate.

Heartbreaking.

I was amazed that nobody…and I mean NOBODY had learned the lessons from the Siege of Richmond/Petersburg in the Civil War.

Napoleonic infantry tactics Do. Not. Work. against Industrial Age rapid fire weapons.

You look at pictures from the end of our Civil War and you would swear it was France in 1916. Nobody in all those years had bothered to try and come up with better battlefield doctrines and tactics.

325 sagehen  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:45:14pm

re: #279 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I can’t cite specifics, but I have recently noticed phone exchanges other than 555 being used. I presume they’re still inoperative numbers, but I didn’t bother testing it. It *might* have been Breaking Bad, but I’m not sure.

I wonder if they also use invalid license plate numbers. If you went to your DMV and requested a vanity plate with a number that appeared in a movie, would they reject it?

On some TV shows (not movies) the production company will get a few phones, use those numbers in the show, and have the cast and writers and marketing department take turns answering it.

326 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:46:17pm

re: #304 GeneJockey

It just seemed, reading what people in that era were thinking, as if it was viewed as inevitable, as if war had become an entity all its own, and not ‘a continuation of policy by other means’. I could never find a policy goal that anyone felt was important enough to go to war over, yet everyone seemed convinced that there WOULD BE a war, and by preparing for it, and expecting it, they brought it about.

Look at the 1900s.

In some ways the Great War is the culmination of a lot of lesser conflicts over control of colonies, territories, and minor powers around the world. Once you see all the engagements, skirmishes, and small wars that happened over the couple of decades preceding 1914 you see that the Balkan engagement starts as more of the same.

Then you add some nations with internal tension. Start with Austria-Hungary, which had recently been Austria. Suddenly ‘those Hungarians’ had pretty much equal power to their Austrian peers. There were the newly empowered who demonstrated or flaunted (depending on viewpoint) and the old guard dismayed at these fools who thought themselves peers. There was a lot of looking around for engagements to focus all that unrest outside the borders and forge alliances from mutual support and alliance. Again the Balkans weren’t first.

And Austria wasn’t alone in this tension. Russia is on the verge of its civil war. Germany’s going through internal crisis as the SDP gains power. And on, and on.

Add to it national pride and ego. The Russians, again, who vow ‘never again’ in regard to Serbia in 1908. (Oh look, there’s those territorial wars again.) And various nations on both sides who various agree or say, ‘that’s what you think.’

Toss in major internal disruptions due to economic changes. It’s been several years since the industrial revolution really got going, but because the bulk of the wars had been external or kept small the stress points experience overseas in the US hadn’t yet been relieved in Europe. Racism, economic logistics, relatively rapid communications, they’re all getting the conflict of old and new and resulting changes in power.

I do not know that the conflict was inevitable. Instead I think it was perceived as the Great War just changing it all from covert to overt.

But that’s just how I see it and I’m willing to have my mind changed.

327 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:46:44pm

since some of the talk is involving guns, I submit to your attention the following:

$20,000 bulletproof business suit looks sharp, stops .45-caliber rounds (VIDEO)

One Toronto based tailor shop specializes in bulletproof business suits that can stop .45-caliber rounds, City News reports.

At $20,000 a suit, they don’t come cheap. But if you’re an overseas businessman or woman that deals in oil or diamonds or a super secret agent, the added protection may just be worth the money.

Garrison Bespoke developed his armored suits using technology originally created for the U.S. military in Iraq. By layering sheets of carbon nanotubes underneath sharp looking business attire, this tailor’s suits don’t just turn heads, they stop bullets.

SNIP

If you’re looking for even more added protection, you can pick up a bullet-proof dress shirt from Miguel Caballero for around $4,000.

Youtube Video

Normal Person: “$20,000 for a suit, $4,000 for a shirt?”

Mitt Romney: “Heck, for me that’s pocket change.”

328 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:48:11pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

since some of the talk is involving guns, I submit to your attention the following:

$20,000 bulletproof business suit looks sharp, stops .45-caliber rounds (VIDEO)

SNIP

[Embedded content]

Normal Person: “$20,000 for a suit, $4,000 for a shirt?”

Mitt Romney: “Heck, for me that’s pocket change.”

For the people normally subject to assassination it’s usually pocket change. Betcha the President of the US, among others, is wearing this or similar most of the time.

329 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:49:42pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

since some of the talk is involving guns, I submit to your attention the following:

$20,000 bulletproof business suit looks sharp, stops .45-caliber rounds (VIDEO)

SNIP

[Embedded content]

Normal Person: “$20,000 for a suit, $4,000 for a shirt?”

Mitt Romney: “Heck, for me that’s pocket change.”

“Does this SAPI plate make my ass look fat?”

330 sagehen  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:50:35pm

re: #285 GeneJockey

From everything I’ve ever read about WWI, the reason it happened was because everyone expected it to. There was no cause that anyone was fighting for, there was no big, nasty aggressor, there was really no advantage to be gained, and everyone just figured they’d march across the enemy’s territory in a lightning move and it would all be over, and they’d have won, but they didn’t know what that would have meant.

It’s probably mankind’s most colossal fuckup, and whenever I hear people talking about the superiority of Western Culture, I think about WWI.

I have only the vaguest memory of High School History, but my general impression was that some small country had beef with some other small country, and they each had mutual defense treaties with medium-sized countries who had agreements with larger wealthier nations and everybody jumped to their allies’ sides and… it just sort of snowballed.

331 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:50:45pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

since some of the talk is involving guns, I submit to your attention the following:

$20,000 bulletproof business suit looks sharp, stops .45-caliber rounds (VIDEO)

SNIP

[Embedded content]

Normal Person: “$20,000 for a suit, $4,000 for a shirt?”

Mitt Romney: “Heck, for me that’s pocket change.”

Which is why in security forces, we repeatedly drilled with the understanding that body shots were just to stun the target for the time it takes to line up for a head shot.

Two to the chest, one to the head.

332 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:52:02pm

re: #330 sagehen

I have only the vaguest memory of High School History, but my general impression was that some small country had beef with some other small country, and they each had mutual defense treaties with medium-sized countries who had agreements with larger wealthier nations and everybody jumped to their allies’ sides and… it just sort of snowballed.

I blame Bismarck.

333 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:53:27pm

re: #324 Aunty Entity Dragon

I was amazed that nobody…and I mean NOBODY had learned the lessons from the Siege of Richmond/Petersburg in the Civil War.

Napoleonic infantry tactics >Do. Not. Work. against Industrial Age rapid fire weapons.

You look at pictures from the end of our Civil War and you would swear it was France in 1916. Nobody in all those years had bothered to try and come up with better battlefield doctrines and tactics.

The armies of most European powers pooh-poohed lessons from the US Civil War. Much that was just standard Anti-Americanism, and the resultant belief that Americans were just a bunch of undisciplined yahoos.

Allied to this was aristocratic dislike of the leveling aspects of the American political system (limited though that was), as well as the end result of the war, which saw the Pedigreed Aristocrat (Robert E. Lee) surrender to the son of a merchant (Ulysses S. Grant). That sort of result was unbelievable to many European aristocratic generals, and so their minds fled reality for comforting illusions (much like present-day Tea Party members).

334 thecommodore  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:53:53pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Of course the GOP isn’t racist, some of their best friends are black!

////

I know. I mean, Herman Cain was a front runner in 2012! And Allen West is really admired! And Thomas Sowell is a popular columnist!

335 sagehen  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:54:00pm

re: #288 makeitstop

Or to go even further back…

634-5789

or further still

Youtube Video

336 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:55:10pm

re: #324 Aunty Entity Dragon

I was mazed that nobody…and I mean NOBODY had learned the lessons from the Siege of Richmond/Petersburg in the Civil War.

Napoleonic infantry tactics >Do. Not. Work. against Industrial Age rapid fire weapons.

You look at pictures from the end of our Civil War and you would swear it was France in 1916. Nobody in all those years had bothered to try and come up with better battlefield doctrines and tactics.

There was some learning in the intermediate years, but a lot of the ACW lessons were quickly forgotten.

One Prussian officer wrote off the ACW since it was a fight between volunteer forces and not professional armies.

The Franco-Prussian War and other wars that led to German unification gave some lessons in how rifled artillery and repeating rifles were going to destroy open infantry charges through sheer firepower. One unfortunate result was that the French put an emphasis on morale and elan since that was going to be necessary in order to cross that battlefield - without realizing what barbed wire, trenches, and machine guns would do to that.

The UK got a bit of a late wake-up call with the Boer War. Got to see how well Mauser rifles and cover could tear up troops still wearing *red* uniforms. So they transitioned to a better uniform color (khaki) at the very least. Also went to very intense rifle training for their small professional army using Lee-Enfield Mk IV rifles.* Their adoption of better artillery and more machine guns trailed the others though.

* - Their long-range and accurate rifle fire was taken as machine gun fire by the Germans at Mons in 1915. (If I recall the anecdote correctly.)

337 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:55:24pm

re: #329 Decatur Deb

“Does this SAPI plate make my ass look fat?”

It’s just that Romney’s inability to hide his ‘rich guy’ nature made the joke irresistible.

338 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:56:39pm

re: #335 sagehen

or further still

[Embedded content]

I knew where you were going with it without opening the video. :)

339 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:58:13pm

I just caught the first sighting of the new O’Keefe scam on Facebook.

No doubt it’ll be on every wingnut’s wall by tomorrow morning.

340 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:58:22pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

If Sarah Palin tried to actually understand the views of Pope Francis her head would explode. He is simply much smarter and far better educated than she is.

One word - Jesuit.

341 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 1:59:24pm

re: #336 Feline Fearless Leader

There was some learning in the intermediate years, but a lot of the ACW lessons were quickly forgotten.

One Prussian officer wrote off the ACW since it was a fight between volunteer forces and not professional armies.

The Franco-Prussian War and other wars that led to German unification gave some lessons in how rifled artillery and repeating rifles were going to destroy open infantry charges through sheer firepower. One unfortunate result was that the French put an emphasis on morale and elan since that was going to be necessary in order to cross that battlefield - without realizing what barbed wire, trenches, and machine guns would do to that.

The UK got a bit of a late wake-up call with the Boer War. Got to see how well Mauser rifles and cover could tear up troops still wearing *red* uniforms. So they transitioned to a better uniform color (khaki) at the very least. Also went to very intense rifle training for their small professional army using Lee-Enfield Mk IV rifles.* Their adoption of better artillery and more machine guns trailed the others though.

* - Their long-range and accurate rifle fire was taken as machine gun fire by the Germans at Mons in 1915. (If I recall the anecdote correctly.)

The UK has already transitioned to khaki by the start of the Boer War, Mons was in 1914, and the British rifle of WWI was the Mark III Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield, abbreviated as the sMLE (the Number 4 was issued during WWII).

I did upding you though, and I don’t mean to pick at you with those corrections.

342 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:01:34pm

re: #333 Dark_Falcon

The armies of most European powers pooh-poohed lessons from the US Civil War. Much that was just standard Anti-Americanism, and the resultant belief that Americans were just a bunch of undisciplined yahoos.

Allied to this was aristocratic dislike of the leveling aspects of the American political system (limited though that was), as well as the end result of the war, which saw the Pedigreed Aristocrat (Robert E. Lee) surrender to the son of a merchant (Ulysses S. Grant). That sort of result was unbelievable to many European aristocratic generals, and so their minds fled reality for comforting illusions (much like present-day Tea Party members).

It’s worse. Between the ACW and WWI we’ve got the Europeans experiencing the Russo-Turkey war, the Boer wars, the first Balkan war, and several others that gave player in WWI a foretaste of what industry was bringing to the table. Heck, the Crimean war only barely predated the ACW and it, too, saw some of the impact of industrial power.

It wasn’t just anti-americanism.

343 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:01:35pm

re: #340 William Barnett-Lewis

One word - Jesuit.

I know, the high school I attended and graduated from is run by the Jesuits. So I’ve known more than one Jesuit priest. And all of them were smarter, better educated, and more articulate than Sarah Palin.

344 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:01:43pm

A quick follow-up note on the UK Army. The tech they developed for their infantry pretty much carried them through WW2 as well. Service rifle was the same Lee-Enfield Mk IV**. Medium Machine gun was the Vickers. Their Lewis Light MG was still around in places, but was supplemented by the Bren in the late 30s (an adaptation of a Czech design,) And their officers still carried around the same revolvers.

Not so well with SMGs. Were purchasing Thompsons from the US and developed a pretty raw looking SMG known as the Sten.

** - Per DF info - it was transition from Mark III to Mark IV SMLE, but they were very similar weapons.

345 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:01:55pm

speaking of bogus phone numbers, I just got a call from someone with a heavy foreign accent with lots of electronic noise on the line, claiming to be from “Windows Help Desk” and asking to confirm my “address where I am residing”.
Caller ID said “142-2314”.
Good grief….

346 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:02:45pm

re: #341 Dark_Falcon

The UK has already transitioned to khaki by the start of the Boer War, Mons was in 1914, and the British rifle of WWI was the Mark III Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield, abbreviated as the sMLE (the Number 4 was issued during WWII).

I did upding you though, and I don’t mean to pick at you with those corrections.

Appreciate the corrections - prefer the data to be accurate and do not take umbrage since I’m typing w/o reference to Wikipedia or my other book references.

347 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:03:39pm

WWI and the original “Storm Troopers”

Infiltration tactics were first formally proposed in the Allied armies by French Army captain Andre Laffargue.[1] Laffargue published a pamphlet “The attack in trench warfare” in 1915, based upon his experiences in combat that same year. He advocated that the first wave of an attack identify hard-to-defeat defenses but not attack them; subsequent waves would do this.

The French published his pamphlet “for information”, but did not implement it. The British did not even translate it, but did gradually adopt the techniques, beginning with the Canadian Corps. The Germans, however, captured copies of the pamphlet in 1916, translating and issuing it to units,[2] but by this point they already had their own, more sophisticated infiltration tactics. An experimental Pioneer assault unit founded by Major Calsow and later commanded and refined by Hauptmann Willy Rohr had been formed in the spring of 1915, over two months before Laffargue’s pamphlet was published.[3][4][5][6] The methods Rohr developed are the basis of all modern small-unit infantry tactics.[7]

The Russian army first used storm tactics at a larger scale in June 1916 during the Brusilov Offensive with great success. But, due to the February Revolution in Russia, no further development of the tactics was carried out on the Russian side.

The British Army traditionally relied on superior rifle fire from its units; their men were expected to outshoot the enemy. Major N. R. McMahon, Chief Instructor at Hythe’s Rifle School from 1905 to 1909 had suggested that the advent of machine guns (MGs) and automatic rifles, with vastly greater volume of fire, made these tactics obsolete. He argued this would be all the more apparent when armies were formed largely of partially trained troops, who would be unable to carry out complicated tactics or maintain high standards of marksmanship. His solution was to abandon the fire fight as a distinct phase of battle. McMahon recommended quick attack tactics by means of infiltration and rapid movement. In the existing British system, movement waited on fire. Thus, preliminary fire was usually a give-away. The enemy would recognize heavy fire as a prelude to movement, and thus be alerted.

Instead, soldiers should be trained to consider fire as a means to facilitate movement in progress. Movement would be a call for fire. McMahon advocated using combined arms in the attack, particularly light machine guns (some six light and two heavy MGs per battalion) using a decentralised fire control and tactical command system (known as Auftragstaktik in German). These methods, suggested in 1909, bore a strong resemblance to the Stoßtrupptaktik used by the Germans six years later.[8]

In February 1917, the British Army issued Manual SS 143, which prescribed infiltration tactics. Using them throughout 1917 the British perfected all-arms battle. The British made the platoon the basic tactical unit rather than the company as in 1916. The platoon was made up of four sections, Lewis Gun, rifle grenade, grenade and rifle. The new organisation allowed the platoon make best use of the trench fighting equipment that had arrived in adequate quantities since the beginning of the battle of the Somme. They were also supported by sophisticated artillery flash-spotting and sound-ranging, something the German Army never perfected and instead relied on the aural method with ever more accurate measuring devices. Some historians consider the British infiltration tactics more sophisticated than the German system.[9]

348 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:03:50pm

re: #344 Feline Fearless Leader

A quick follow-up note on the UK Army. The tech they developed for their infantry pretty much carried them through WW2 as well. Service rifle was the same Lee-Enfield Mk IV. Medium Machine gun was the Vickers. Their Lewis Light MG was still around in places, but was supplemented by the Bren in the late 30s (an adaptation of a Czech design,) And their officers still carried around the same revolvers.

Not so well with SMGs. Were purchasing Thompsons from the US and developed a pretty raw looking SMG known as the Sten.

Actually, the UK largely transitioned from the .455 Webley Model 6 to the .38 caliber Enfield No.2 revolver between the two world wars.

349 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:05:20pm

re: #346 Feline Fearless Leader

Appreciate the corrections - prefer the data to be accurate and do not take umbrage since I’m typing w/o reference to Wikipedia or my other book references.

Make sure to thank me with an upding or two. :)

350 allegro  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:05:27pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

I know, the high school I attended and graduated from is run by the Jesuits. So I’ve known more than one Jesuit priest. And all of them were smarter, better educated, and more articulate than Sarah Palin.

my spaniel is smarter than Sarah Palin. That’s a seriously low bar.

351 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:06:16pm

Now we’ve done it. Richard Cohen’s feelings are hurt.

“I didn’t write one line, I wrote a column,” he told the Huffington Post in an interview. “The column is about Tea Party extremism and I was not expressing my views, I was expressing the views of what I think some people in the Tea Party held.”

“The word racist is truly hurtful,” he added. “It’s not who I am. It’s not who I ever was. It’s just not fair. It’s just not right.”

Cohen explained that he didn’t think the entire Tea Party held such views.

“I don’t think everybody in the Tea Party is like that, because I know there are blacks in the Tea Party,” he said. “So they’re not all racist, unless I’m going to start doing mind reading about why those black people are there.”

Fred Hiatt, the Washington Post editorial page editor, also defended the column Tuesday, but said that he could have edited it “more carefully.”

352 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:07:03pm
353 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:07:28pm

Taking the idea of infiltration forces to the next level was Orde Wingate, who during WWII was responsible for the Chindits

The Chindits were a British India ‘Special Force’” that served in Burma and India in 1943 and 1944 during the Burma Campaign in World War II. They were formed to put into effect Orde Wingate’s newly developed guerilla warfare tactic of long-range penetration. The Chindits were trained to operate deep behind Japanese lines, their operations were marked by prolonged marches through extremely difficult terrain by underfed troops weakened by diseases such as malaria and dysentery.

A continuing controversy over the force has centred on its extremely high casualty rate and the debatable military value of its achievements.

While the contributions of the original Chindits can be debated, the ideas behind their use have had a lasting effect on war fighting and military planning for decades now.

354 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:07:39pm

re: #351 Charles Johnson

I love this line:

I don’t think everybody in the Tea Party is like that, because I know there are blacks in the Tea Party,” he said. “So they’re not all racist, unless I’m going to start doing mind reading about why those black people are there.

I’M NOT RACIST BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE!

355 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:07:59pm

re: #348 Dark_Falcon

Actually, the UK largely transitioned from the .455 Webley Model 6 to the .38 caliber Enfield No.2 revolver between the two world wars.

And bought a boat load of S&W M&P revolvers in .38S&W rather than the usual American .38 Special because they didn’t have enough of the Enfields to finish the transition during the war.

356 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:08:19pm

Winter tires are now on car. I’m ready for you mom nature!

Hopefully now that I have them on, we will get a nice warming trend that lasts up to Christmas (oops…the Happy Holidays!*) before the real winter weather rolls in.


* Just want to go with the Palin flow…and keep the war on.

357 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:08:38pm

re: #348 Dark_Falcon

Actually, the UK largely transitioned from the .455 Webley Model 6 to the .38 caliber Enfield No.2 revolver between the two world wars.

Though you will also find plenty of references of officers carrying their old .455s or even using their father’s ones. So apparently it was possible to get ammo for them.

358 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:08:47pm

re: #351 Charles Johnson

Now we’ve done it. Richard Cohen’s feelings are hurt.

He’s not racist, he’s “conventional.”

359 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:09:50pm
360 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:09:59pm

Done with class. Off to the hotel! :)

361 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:12:46pm

re: #351 Charles Johnson

Now we’ve done it. Richard Cohen’s feelings are hurt.

I don’t give a flying fuck about Cohen’s “feelings”. I care about what his column both said and implicated.

362 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:13:27pm
363 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:15:07pm
364 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:17:06pm

re: #357 Feline Fearless Leader

Though you will also find plenty of references of officers carrying their old .455s or even using their father’s ones. So apparently it was possible to get ammo for them.

True. Interestingly, a number of Colt and S&W M1917 .45 ACP revolvers saw service for similar reasons.

In a related note, The Turnbull Manufacturing Company caters on ‘retro’ and has introduced a M1911 designed to match that weapon as was made in 1918.

365 Justanotherhuman  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:18:55pm

Haha, my grandson came home just now and said there were “9,000 people at the supermarket” because we’re supposed to get a foot of snow or something. Everyone is in a panic.

Now, it’s been overcast all day, and I thought it looked like a “snow sky” but haven’t really seen the forecast and the weather app says 37 right now and we’ve had a bit of rain; supposed to get down to 24 tonight.

I’ll let you know if we’re snowed in by morning. This would be a very unseasonable occurrence in this area. In fact, I don’t ever remember it snowing before Thanksgiving.

366 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:19:16pm

re: #363 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Now I want to see a black velvet painting of a white guy with Big, Sad Eyes.

367 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:21:08pm

re: #366 wrenchwench

Now I want to see a black velvet painting of a white guy with Big, Sad Eyes.

Wouldn’t that be Lindsey Graham on any given day?

368 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:21:18pm

re: #364 Dark_Falcon

True. Interestingly, a number of Colt and S&W M1917 .45 ACP revolvers saw service for similar reasons.

In a related note, The Turnbull Manufacturing Company caters on ‘retro’ and has introduced a M1911 designed to match that weapon as was made in 1918.

I’d rather get their 1886 rifle instead. The A1 improvements made the 1911 a much better pistol than the one issued in 1918. Of course it can also be argued that Comrade Tokarev made a much better version of it in 1930 as well :whistles:

369 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:22:40pm

Magic>Swords>Guns

370 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:23:41pm
371 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:24:46pm

re: #369 Varek Raith

Magic>Swords>Guns

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

372 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:24:49pm

re: #369 Varek Raith

Magic>Swords>Guns

Image: custodes_squad.jpg

373 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:25:18pm

re: #371 Targetpractice

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

Yeah, but I have all three.

374 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:25:49pm

re: #372 Kragar

Image: custodes_squad.jpg

Do they have magic?

375 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:25:58pm

re: #371 Targetpractice

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

“Flame thrower beats light saber.” - my Bounty Hunter versus a Jedi

376 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:26:03pm

re: #373 Varek Raith

Yeah, but I have all three.

Playing Shadowrun?

377 jvic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:26:18pm

Angels and ministers of grace.

1. Cohen miswrote and his editors didn’t catch it. This is not grounds for stoning. The man was born in 1941, fercryinoutloud. (The faster that technology moves, the more likely it is that one, as age increases, feels surrounded by aliens who use a common language.)

2. As for learning earlier in life that slavery was a benign institution, I consider it unlikely that Cohen was taught that in the classrooms of Far Rockaway HS. However, it is entirely possible that he heard it on the playgrounds. I heard similar rubbish from my playmates back in mumble.

3.

People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children

This is the most provocative sentence in Cohen’s most provocative paragraph. It should not have been published in its present form. Nevertheless, the Tea Party etc seem to be doing a pretty good job in suppressing their “gag reflex” wrt Ted and Heidi Nelson Cruz.

4. I am very reluctant to entertain the thought that the Web may be doing more harm than good, but partisanship in America has become insane.

378 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:26:57pm

re: #376 Targetpractice

Playing Shadowrun?

Trying to set something up.

379 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:27:14pm

re: #374 Varek Raith

Do they have magic?

They’re Custodes, created using the Emperor’s DNA as geneseed, so yeah.

380 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:27:49pm

re: #379 Kragar

They’re Custodes, created using the Emperor’s DNA as geneseed, so yeah.

Good enough for me.

381 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:30:11pm

re: #368 William Barnett-Lewis

I’d rather get their 1886 rifle instead. The A1 improvements made the 1911 a much better pistol than the one issued in 1918. Of course it can also be argued that Comrade Tokarev made a much better version of it in 1930 as well :whistles:

Yeah, those are nice. BBL

382 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:30:23pm

Of course, all my stuff is out of date.

383 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:31:22pm

As of last night, I got myself involved some dark and arcane…a D&D campaign my sister and her friends are playing. The DM insists on creating the characters herself, yet somehow I still managed to basically end up playing my Skyrim character.

384 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:32:00pm

re: #373 Varek Raith

Yeah, but I have all three.

Well, aren’t you just special!

///

385 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:32:52pm

re: #383 Targetpractice

As of last night, I got myself involved some dark and arcane…a D&D campaign my sister and her friends are playing. The DM insists on creating the characters herself, yet somehow I still managed to basically end up playing my Skyrim character.

Did you clean up?

386 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:33:48pm

re: #359 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

That was dead brilliant.

387 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:34:30pm

re: #382 Varek Raith

Of course, all my stuff is out of date.

eh. As with all multi-edition systems there are plenty of people out there saying the newer stuff is crap and /this/ edition is great.

I’ve been sorta mixed, but then there are parts of Shadowrun that always make me have to fight to keep my disbelief suspended.

388 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:35:06pm

re: #385 AlexRogan

Did you clean up?

I joined the game while they were in the midst of a battle, and the character I’m playing is currently behind bars. And they didn’t play long last night, because the DM ended up getting involved in Tumblr. So I’ll have to wait til next week to start playing in the grand Elder Scrolls tradition…a prisoner on his way to the headman’s axe.

389 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:36:06pm

re: #388 Targetpractice

I joined the game while they were in the midst of a battle, and the character I’m playing is currently behind bars. And they didn’t play long last night, because the DM ended up getting involved in Tumblr. So I’ll have to wait til next week to start playing in the grand Elder Scrolls tradition…a prisoner on his way to the headman’s axe.

“I shoot the annoying elf in the cell across from me with an arrow to the knee.”

390 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:38:19pm

re: #387 kirkspencer

eh. As with all multi-edition systems there are plenty of people out there saying the newer stuff is crap and /this/ edition is great.

I’ve been sorta mixed, but then there are parts of Shadowrun that always make me have to fight to keep my disbelief suspended.

One thing no one can disagree with.

The version 3.5 Chaos Space Marine remains the greatest CSM codex, which all subsequent release have fallen far short of.

391 jamesfirecat  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:38:25pm

re: #94 Feline Fearless Leader

Given my current kick with a superheroes coop game (Sentinels of the Multiverse) and that I will be helping a friend move next week (who is blogging about old issues of Thor on a weekly basis) I think I am favoring Thor since it will provide conversation fodder for next week - and maybe give me some ideas for a game variant or sequence.

I love me some Sentinels of the multiverse!

Who is your favorite character?

392 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:40:04pm

re: #389 thedopefishlives

“I shoot the annoying elf in the cell across from me with an arrow to the knee.”

“FOR THE LOVE OF TALOS, LETS GET ON WITH IT!”
- Dumbest bastard in Skyrim

393 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:40:41pm

re: #392 Kragar

“FOR THE LOVE OF TALOS, LETS GET ON WITH IT!”
- Dumbest bastard in Skyrim

To think, if he’d just let her finish, he might have lived.

394 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:41:46pm

re: #393 Targetpractice

To think, if he’d just let her finish, he might have lived.

Yet more evidence that the man should ALWAYS make sure the woman finishes first.

395 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:42:31pm

re: #393 Targetpractice

To think, if he’d just let her finish, he might have lived.

And wouldn’t killing Ulfric first been the best thing to do?

396 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:42:55pm

re: #377 jvic

Angels and ministers of grace.

1. Cohen miswrote and his editors didn’t catch it. This is not grounds for stoning. The man was born in 1941, fercryinoutloud. (The faster that technology moves, the more likely it is that one, as age increases, feels surrounded by aliens who use a common language.)

2. As for learning earlier in life that slavery was a benign institution, I consider it unlikely that Cohen was taught that in the classrooms of Far Rockaway HS. However, it is entirely possible that he heard it on the playgrounds. I heard similar rubbish from my playmates back in mumble.

3.

This is the most provocative sentence in Cohen’s most provocative paragraph. It should not have been published in its present form. Nevertheless, the Tea Party etc seem to be doing a pretty good job in suppressing their “gag reflex” wrt Ted and Heidi Nelson Cruz.

4. I am very reluctant to entertain the thought that the Web may be doing more harm than good, but partisanship in America has become insane.

1. Being born in 1941 is irrelevant. My dad was born in 1930 and he was never a racist (that I know of). How do you know he ‘miswrote’?

2. Ignorance is no excuse for a man who is a writer, and has been for so long. Presumably he’s a reader too.

3. The Cruzes are not interracial. And I don’t see why Cohen should not let his racist freak flag fly.

4. Yup.

397 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:43:22pm

re: #395 Kragar

And wouldn’t killing Ulfric first been the best thing to do?

General Tullius didn’t strike me as one of the brightest bulbs.

398 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:44:47pm

re: #397 Targetpractice

General Tullius didn’t strike me as one of the brightest bulbs.

The Elder Scrolls series is chock full of characters whose genre blindness is absolutely staggering. I’ve lost count of how many friendly Oblivion NPCs raced headfirst into a Dremora Lord and got split from stem to stern.

399 GeneJockey  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:44:57pm

As I scan down this thread before running off to finish my RNA preps (which i’m only doing to avoid writing performance reviews), I am left with one thought:

Jesus Christ on a Panzer! What a bunch of history nerds we are!!!

400 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:46:41pm

re: #399 GeneJockey

As I scan down this thread before running off to finish my RNA preps (which i’m only doing to avoid writing performance reviews), I am left with one thought:

>Jesus Christ on a Panzer! What a bunch of history nerds we are!!!

You’ll find all sorts of nerds in here. And varying degrees as well, as some of us gorge on the stuff while others just nibble.

401 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:47:15pm

re: #390 Kragar

One thing no one can disagree with.

The version 3.5 Chaos Space Marine remains the greatest CSM codex, which all subsequent release have fallen far short of.

I know some who think 2e is better but none who think well of any later.

402 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:48:37pm

re: #401 kirkspencer

I know some who think 2e is better but none who think well of any later.

3.5 had the Legion rules and you could still field demons.

403 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:49:27pm

re: #398 thedopefishlives

The Elder Scrolls series is chock full of characters whose genre blindness is absolutely staggering. I’ve lost count of how many friendly Oblivion NPCs raced headfirst into a Dremora Lord and got split from stem to stern.

Hell, it was hilarious in Skyrim, beating the shit out of a dragon and then having bandits look at me and decide “We can totally take this guy!”

404 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:53:57pm

re: #403 Targetpractice

Hell, it was hilarious in Skyrim, beating the shit out of a dragon and then having bandits look at me and decide “We can totally take this guy!”

They totally didn’t see what you did there.

405 Mike Lamb  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:54:40pm

re: #377 jvic

Angels and ministers of grace.

1. Cohen miswrote and his editors didn’t catch it. This is not grounds for stoning. The man was born in 1941, fercryinoutloud. (The faster that technology moves, the more likely it is that one, as age increases, feels surrounded by aliens who use a common language.)

2. As for learning earlier in life that slavery was a benign institution, I consider it unlikely that Cohen was taught that in the classrooms of Far Rockaway HS. However, it is entirely possible that he heard it on the playgrounds. I heard similar rubbish from my playmates back in mumble.

3.

This is the most provocative sentence in Cohen’s most provocative paragraph. It should not have been published in its present form. Nevertheless, the Tea Party etc seem to be doing a pretty good job in suppressing their “gag reflex” wrt Ted and Heidi Nelson Cruz.

4. I am very reluctant to entertain the thought that the Web may be doing more harm than good, but partisanship in America has become insane.

Am I reading this correctly as some sort of defense of Cohen’s racist views? And you think that the Cruzes somehow prove that the Tea Party isn’t racist?

406 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:54:44pm

re: #404 thedopefishlives

They totally didn’t see what you did there.

They saw the war axe when I imbedded it in their sternum, I guarantee that.

407 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:55:10pm

re: #403 Targetpractice

Hell, it was hilarious in Skyrim, beating the shit out of a dragon and then having bandits look at me and decide “We can totally take this guy!”

“You killed the dragon. Hooray!”

“You stole a spoon! KILL HIM!”

408 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:57:54pm

re: #391 jamesfirecat

I love me some Sentinels of the multiverse!

Who is your favorite character?

Partial to Tachyon and Tempest from my experiences so far. Not enough experience yet with some others (Scholar, Absolute Zero) to judge. Haven’t really hit a hero I consider an outright “dud” yet. Different ones seem to shine in different contests.

409 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 2:59:11pm

re: #402 Kragar

3.5 had the Legion rules and you could still field demons.

Let me clear - I have no preference. I have played both 40K and FB in the past, but GW’s policies and practices - not to mention the nihilistic universe of both games - have left me with no interest in investing more time or money in them. I maintain awareness for the same reason apple fans remain aware of microsoft; you ignore the 400 pound gorilla at your peril. But awareness is not interest.

umm, a bit of contrariness - I admire the richness of detail. But still no preference for any of the editions.

410 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:00:29pm

re: #406 Targetpractice

They saw the war axe when I imbedded it in their sternum, I guarantee that.

I always had a bit of trouble with melee characters. For Oblivion and Skyrim, I favored the mage. The fun part is nailing an unsuspecting bandit with a double-cast fireball at range. It does make it rather annoying to fight dragons, though.

411 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:02:11pm

re: #410 thedopefishlives

I always had a bit of trouble with melee characters. For Oblivion and Skyrim, I favored the mage. The fun part is nailing an unsuspecting bandit with a double-cast fireball at range. It does make it rather annoying to fight dragons, though.

I run a stealth archer for Skyrim. Dragon? No problem. 5 guys bearing down on me at once? Whoops, gotta run… Oh, you stopped following me? Time for some fun.

412 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:02:19pm

re: #379 Kragar

They’re Custodes, created using the Emperor’s DNA as geneseed, so yeah.

Thought you might get a kick out of this…

blog.spikeybits.com

413 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:04:37pm

re: #410 thedopefishlives

I always had a bit of trouble with melee characters. For Oblivion and Skyrim, I favored the mage. The fun part is nailing an unsuspecting bandit with a double-cast fireball at range. It does make it rather annoying to fight dragons, though.

I’m the exact opposite, I’ve not had much luck building a mage. Early game, I’m a believer that the best answer to a Nord zombie is a big fucking axe.

414 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:05:41pm

re: #413 Targetpractice

I’m the exact opposite, I’ve not had much luck building a mage. Early game, I’m a believer that the best answer to a Nord zombie is a big fucking axe.

For Skyrim, once you get to a level in Destruction where your double-cast fireballs stun the target, it becomes a lot easier. Mage playstyles have trouble with the early game, and I certainly did my fair share of running around with axes before I got into the Mages Guild questline.

415 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:06:51pm

re: #413 Targetpractice

I’m the exact opposite, I’ve not had much luck building a mage. Early game, I’m a believer that the best answer to a Nord zombie is a big fucking axe.

The only mage I like is illusionist, but then you’ve got no way to deal with dragons.

The Dark Brotherhood quest is highly amusing though.

416 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:07:56pm

re: #412 Aunty Entity Dragon

Thought you might get a kick out of this…

blog.spikeybits.com

Female Astartes? HERESY!

417 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:08:04pm

re: #415 Kragar

The only mage I like is illusionist, but then you’ve got no way to deal with dragons.

The Dark Brotherhood quest is highly amusing though.

The DM at the game last night agreed with me that playing a truly “good” character in Skyrim means depriving oneself of Redguard assassin Three Dog, and that’s just not a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

418 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:09:31pm

re: #416 Kragar

Female Astartes? HERESY!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Our secret is out! The Dark Angels…are girls!

419 Stoatly  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:10:02pm

re: #318 GeneJockey

I think WWI was probably the time when it was most catastrophically wrong, though, with universal conscription leading to everyone dying in the trenches from random falling death, or climbing up out of them to mowed down by the machine guns that their own random falling death had failed to eradicate.

Heartbreaking.

The thing that gets me about WWI every time I see a war memorial anywhere in the UK or the rest of Europe is the numbers.
Usually the WWI and WWII memorials are together and the list of names for WWII are so much bigger
The family names grouped together and the pals battalions being particularly striking

And then after all that carnage the Spanish flu pandemic hit

420 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:11:35pm

re: #412 Aunty Entity Dragon

Thought you might get a kick out of this…

blog.spikeybits.com

*squints* Huh, it’s Lightning from FFXIII in power armor.

//

421 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:11:47pm

I don’t use companions in Skyrim unless forced to for a quest.

422 jvic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:13:19pm

re: #396 wrenchwench

1. Being born in 1941 is irrelevant. My dad was born in 1930 and he was never a racist (that I know of). How do you know he ‘miswrote’?

As Charles quoted:

“I didn’t write one line, I wrote a column,” he told the Huffington Post in an interview. “The column is about Tea Party extremism and I was not expressing my views, I was expressing the views of what I think some people in the Tea Party held.”

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I take that at face value.

2. Ignorance is no excuse for a man who is a writer, and has been for so long. Presumably he’s a reader too.

True. Cohen screwed up. Nothing in my comment is meant to indicate otherwise.

3. The Cruzes are not interracial. And I don’t see why Cohen should not let his racist freak flag fly.

According to Wikipedia, Daddy Cruz is named Rafael Bienvenido Cruz; mom is Irish-Italian. Daddy’s first and middle names are consistent with the Hispanic surname.

4. Yup.

Indeed. The Web seems more effective at polarizing than at facilitating common ground.

(I’ll hang around a bit to see if you reply but may not respond in turn: I’ve already been logged in considerably longer than intended.)

423 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:13:20pm

re: #419 Stoatly

The thing that gets me about WWI every time I see a war memorial anywhere in the UK or the rest of Europe is the numbers.
Usually the WWI and WWII memorials are together and the list of names for WWII are >so much bigger
The family names grouped together and the pals battalions being particularly striking

And then after all that carnage the Spanish flu pandemic hit

I think it was at St Cyr, the French Military Academy where the memorial wall simply says “Class of 1914” “Class of 1915” & “Class of 1916”. I think of that every time I hear someone make fun of the French military.

424 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:13:39pm

re: #421 Kragar

I don’t use companions in Skyrim unless forced to for a quest.

Lydia’s my pack mule…er, companion for most of the early game.

425 thedopefishlives  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:14:15pm

re: #421 Kragar

I don’t use companions in Skyrim unless forced to for a quest.

I had a decent amount of success with the default companion. And by “decent amount of success” I mean, I kept Lydia from dying horribly until about the third dragon we faced.

426 Aunty Entity Dragon  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:15:25pm

re: #420 Targetpractice

*squints* Huh, it’s Lightning from FFXIII in power armor.

//

Yeah, that really does look like her.

427 Kragar  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:15:43pm

re: #424 Targetpractice

Lydia’s my pack mule…er, companion for most of the early game.

I do admit I use the “magic chest” mod so I can avoid needing a pack mule.

428 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:19:08pm

Speaking of mods, I really need to get done with FONV’s stock quests so that I can try out some new mods like Project Nevada.

429 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:20:23pm

re: #285 GeneJockey

From everything I’ve ever read about WWI, the reason it happened was because everyone expected it to. There was no cause that anyone was fighting for, there was no big, nasty aggressor, there was really no advantage to be gained, and everyone just figured they’d march across the enemy’s territory in a lightning move and it would all be over, and they’d have won, but they didn’t know what that would have meant.

It’s probably mankind’s most colossal fuckup, and whenever I hear people talking about the superiority of Western Culture, I think about WWI.

It was a classic case of multi-lateral defence agreements falling like dominoes.

Arch-Prince killed in Serbia. Austria attacks Serbia. Russia, allied with Serbia, attacks Austria. Germany, allied with Austria, attacks Russia. Britain and France, allied with Russia, attack Germany and Austria. Turkey, allied with Germany and Austria, attacks the Entente Cordiale. Somewhere along the line the Italians switched sides.

Four years and somewhere between 8 and 9 million dead, nothing was accomplished except who the opposing sides were for the next and worse war.

Brilliant. //

In WWII in Europe there were fewer men available to be called to arms than in WWI because of all the fathers who never had sons.

430 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:25:07pm

re: #422 jvic

As Charles quoted:

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I take that at face value.

True. Cohen screwed up. Nothing in my comment is meant to indicate otherwise.

According to Wikipedia, Daddy Cruz is named Rafael Bienvenido Cruz; mom is Irish-Italian. Daddy’s first and middle names are consistent with the Hispanic surname.

Indeed. The Web seems more effective at polarizing than at facilitating common ground.

(I’ll hang around a bit to see if you reply but may not respond in turn: I’ve already been logged in considerably longer than intended.)

I take what got published before the pushback at face value. You’re giving him the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt.

The Cruzes are not interracial. Hispanics can be of any race. Ted Cruz is white.

431 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:32:01pm

re: #344 Feline Fearless Leader

A quick follow-up note on the UK Army. The tech they developed for their infantry pretty much carried them through WW2 as well. Service rifle was the same Lee-Enfield Mk IV**. Medium Machine gun was the Vickers. Their Lewis Light MG was still around in places, but was supplemented by the Bren in the late 30s (an adaptation of a Czech design,) And their officers still carried around the same revolvers.

Not so well with SMGs. Were purchasing Thompsons from the US and developed a pretty raw looking SMG known as the Sten.

** - Per DF info - it was transition from Mark III to Mark IV SMLE, but they were very similar weapons.

I’ve often wondered why they got rid of the Lewis. Never fired one myself but I’ve heard more than one firearms experts claim it was one of the best light MGs of all time.

Best is still the MG42.

432 jvic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:00:21pm

re: #430 wrenchwench

The Cruzes are not interracial. Hispanics can be of any race. Ted Cruz is white.

1. The biology: According to Wikipedia,

Cuba was inhabited by American Indian people known as the Taíno, also called Arawak by the Spanish, and Guanajatabey and Ciboney people before the arrival of the Spanish. The ancestors of these Native Americans migrated from the mainland of North, Central and South America several centuries earlier.[22] The native Taínos called the island Caobana.[23] The Taíno were farmers while the Ciboney were farmers as well as fishers and hunter-gatherers.

IMHO DNA testing and/or the Cruz family chronicles (if any) could indicate how much North American indigenous and African blood Cruz has. Afaik that information is not publicly available. (According to this, the Cuban population as a whole has a bigger admixture of European genes than do the populations of Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic.)

2. The law:

Affirmative Action Categories and Definitions
Race and Ethnicity Category Definitions (2009)

Race/ethnicity: Categories developed in 1997 by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) that are used to describe groups to which individuals belong, identify with, or belong in the eyes of the community. The categories do not denote scientific definitions of anthropological origins. The designations are used to categorize U.S. citizens, resident aliens, and other eligible non-citizens.

First, individuals are asked to designate ethnicity as either:

• Hispanic or Latino: A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race;

• Not Hispanic or Latino

Second, individuals are asked to indicate one or more races that apply among the following:

• American Indian or Alaska Native: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) who maintains cultural identification through tribal affiliation or community attachment

• Asian: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian Subcontinent, including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam

• Black or African American: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.

• Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands

• White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa

Unless my link is out of date, the federal government makes a distinction between being white and being Hispanic.

3. Good night, with one last thought: If it were revealed that Cruz proactively benefited from affirmative action during his preSenate career, that would be a major blow to his future in the GOP. Presumably inquiring minds are seeking out that information.

433 William of Orange  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:10:43pm

It’s not racist, it’s comedy.

Youtube Video

434 jvic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:13:06pm

re: #405 Mike Lamb

Am I reading this correctly as some sort of defense of Cohen’s racist views?

Am I, or am I not, somehow defending Cohen’s racist views?

Have I, or have I not, stopped beating my wife?

And you think that the Cruzes somehow prove that the Tea Party isn’t racist?

No. I said nothing about whether the Tea Party is racist.

435 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:13:19pm

re: #432 jvic

1. The biology: According to Wikipedia,

IMHO DNA testing and/or the Cruz family chronicles (if any) could indicate how much North American indigenous and African blood Cruz has. Afaik that information is not publicly available. (According to this, the Cuban population as a whole has a bigger admixture of European genes than do the populations of Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic.)

2. The law:

Unless my link is out of date, the federal government makes a distinction between being white and being Hispanic.

3. Good night, with one last thought: If it were revealed that Cruz proactively benefited from affirmative action during his preSenate career, that would be a major blow to his future in the GOP. Presumably inquiring minds are seeking out that information.

From the above: “Hispanic or Latino: A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race;”

Also note the US Census says you can be white and hispanic. See census.gov

Hispanic is an ethnicity and is not mutually exclusive to any race.

436 jvic  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:51:58pm

wrenchwench & kirkspencer, I had not realized that the federal government has separate categories for ethnicity and race.

That said, I stand by my remarks about the Cohen brouhaha.

437 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:00:20pm

re: #432 jvic

1. The biology: According to Wikipedia,

IMHO DNA testing and/or the Cruz family chronicles (if any) could indicate how much North American indigenous and African blood Cruz has. Afaik that information is not publicly available. (According to this, the Cuban population as a whole has a bigger admixture of European genes than do the populations of Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic.)

2. The law:

Unless my link is out of date, the federal government makes a distinction between being white and being Hispanic.

3. Good night, with one last thought: If it were revealed that Cruz proactively benefited from affirmative action during his preSenate career, that would be a major blow to his future in the GOP. Presumably inquiring minds are seeking out that information.

1. There is no biological definition of race.

2. That’s not a law. That’s from Statistical Policy Directive Number 15.

A. Background

For more than 20 years, the current standards in OMB’s Statistical Policy Directive No. 15 have provided a common language to promote uniformity and comparability for data on race and ethnicity for the population groups specified in the Directive. They were developed in cooperation with Federal agencies to provide consistent data on race and ethnicity throughout the Federal Government. Development of the data standards stemmed in large measure from new responsibilities to enforce civil rights laws. Data were needed to monitor equal access in housing, education, employment, and other areas, for populations that historically had experienced discrimination and differential treatment because of their race or ethnicity. The standards are used not only in the decennial census (which provides the data for the “denominator” for many measures), but also in household surveys, on administrative forms (e.g., school registration and mortgage lending applications), and in medical and other research. The categories represent a social-political construct designed for collecting data on the race and ethnicity of broad population groups in this country, and are not anthropologically or scientifically based.

That link goes to a very long page, and I recommend reading the whole thing. I’m going to pull a couple of highlights out:

1. The racial and ethnic categories set forth in the standards should not be interpreted as being primarily biological or genetic in reference. Race and ethnicity may be thought of in terms of social and cultural characteristics as well as ancestry.

2. Respect for individual dignity should guide the processes and methods for collecting data on race and ethnicity; ideally, respondent self-identification should be facilitated to the greatest extent possible, recognizing that in some data collection systems observer identification is more practical.

3. To the extent practicable, the concepts and terminology should reflect clear and generally understood definitions that can achieve broad public acceptance. To assure they are reliable, meaningful, and understood by respondents and observers, the racial and ethnic categories set forth in the standard should be developed using appropriate scientific methodologies, including the social sciences.

In reviewing OMB’s decisions on the recommendations for collecting data on race and ethnicity, it is useful to remember that these decisions:

retain the concept that the standards provide a minimum set of categories for data on race and ethnicity;

permit the collection of more detailed information on population groups provided that any additional categories can be aggregated into the minimum standard set of categories;

underscore that self-identification is the preferred means of obtaining information about an individual’s race and ethnicity, except in instances where observer identification is more practical (e.g., completing a death certificate);

do not identify or designate certain population groups as “minority groups”;

continue the policy that the categories are not to be used for determining the eligibility of population groups for participation in any Federal programs;

do not establish criteria or qualifications (such as blood quantum levels) that are to be used in determining a particular individual’s racial or ethnic classification; and

do not tell an individual who he or she is, or specify how an individual should classify himself or herself.

(4) OMB accepts the following recommendation concerning the ordering of the Hispanic origin and race questions:

When the two question format is used, the Hispanic origin question should precede the race question.

Displays of statistical, administrative, and compliance data on race and ethnicity shall use the categories listed above. The term “nonwhite” is not acceptable for use in the presentation of Federal Government data. It shall not be used in any publication or in the text of any report.

3. What the GOP does to people who did or did not benefit from affirmative action is usually based on racism.

438 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 5:18:01pm

re: #436 jvic

wrenchwench & kirkspencer, I had not realized that the federal government has separate categories for ethnicity and race.

That said, I stand by my remarks about the Cohen brouhaha.

I disagree with your remarks about the Cohen brouhaha. I think Cohen has proven himself to be a racist.

This is posted in the next thread (and on Twitter):


I highly recommend that article at the Atlantic.

439 Ming  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:41:55pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

In response to Richard Cohen, who said: “there is a context to the column. You’ve got to read the whole column and if you read the whole column you can’t honestly think that these are my views or I endorse the views that I articulated in the column.”

It seems to me that his original words in the column stand perfectly well on their own: “People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex…”

Someone who isn’t a racist would have said something more like: “People with abhorrent, racist, hateful views must suppress a gag reflex…”.

There’s no need to look for “context”. I find it hard to excuse the word “conventional” in that sentence, and someone at the Washington Post should have noticed.

440 Flavia  Wed, Nov 13, 2013 2:07:06pm

I knew he had said “This is how THEY feel”, but I also could see exactly why he put it that way; so he could defend their view.


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