Google Starts Caring About Child Porn

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I’ll forego the temptation to say “what took you so long:” Google’s Eric Schmidt Announces New Blocks on Child Porn.

Google’s executive chairman Eric Schmidt has outlined how his company is introducing new measures to block child pornography from appearing in its searches. Schmidt explained the changes to Google’s search function in an op-ed in Britain’s Daily Mail newspaper following a campaign of pressure from British politicians.

Schmidt broke the new measures down into subcategories that included “cleaning up” more than 100,000 search results and introducing new warnings that appear above more than 13,000 results, warnings that reiterate that child porn and child sexual abuse is illegal and offer avenues for help. Despite these changes, Schmidt says in his op-ed that “there’s no quick technical fix when it comes to detecting child sexual abuse imagery.” Instead, Google will use humans to review the images to discern the difference between “genuine abuse” and “innocent pictures of kids at bathtime.” Schmidt also details plans to send engineers to the UK’s Internet Watch Foundation and the US National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in addition to funding internships at both organizations.

UK Prime Minister David Cameron is in the midst of an attempted crackdown on pornography in general, with a particular focus on stopping search engines from showing child porn. Earlier this year, Cameron called for “Google, Bing, Yahoo, and the rest” to censor their search results, saying in July: “If there are technical obstacles to acting on [search engines], don’t just stand by and say nothing can be done; use your great brains to help overcome them.” Google has previously shied away from censoring its results directly, choosing instead to develop an open database to which law enforcement agencies, charities, and relevant organizations could add the details of abusive imagery that could then be hidden or removed.

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475 comments
1 DaveBarnes  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:23:13pm

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

2 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:24:27pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

WTF? Even for Child porn? GTFO.

3 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:26:01pm

The only question is what took them so long in the first place?

4 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:27:29pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

Privately-owned companies have every right to refuse to publish child porn. I’d like to see them all do it.

5 Ed E. Lishus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:29:59pm

Speaking of Google, interesting that they chose not to make one of their goofy doodles in observance of the GA but instead provide a modest line with a link to the speech underneath the search box.

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:30:37pm

The First Amendment. How does it work?

7 A Mom Anon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:31:05pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes
Um. Well. I. Um.

I got nothing that wouldn’t get be banned. So child porn is “information” now? When did this happen?

8 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:31:29pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

Privately-owned companies have every right to refuse to publish child porn. I’d like to see them all do it.

Considering that it’s evidence of criminal activity including abduction and rape, yes.

9 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:36:00pm

So in Dave’s world, a criminal can post pictures of his victims and no one can do anything about it because information just wants to be free.

10 A Mom Anon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:42:11pm

re: #9 Kragar

I’m still trying to wrap my head around this line of “reasoning”… Raping kids is a FUCKING CRIME. A crime that is helped along by online “communities” and file sharing. They plot and plan and share tips on how not to get caught and how to lure victims. They cause pain and suffering and damage that can literally effect families for GENERATIONS. And many, many times, they also murder their victims to leave no witnesses behind. Or they sell their victims into slavery, child trafficking for sex. Yeah, all that shit should be just be allowed to go on unabated because FREEDOM!!

No. Just. NO. JH Christ, Esq.

11 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:43:01pm

Not totally thrilled that the first comment in this thread is supporting the publication of child porn. Gotta admit.

12 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:43:09pm

re: #10 A Mom Anon

Trolls are lovely people.

13 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:45:19pm

Google will use humans

i generally advise against the practice

14 A Mom Anon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:46:06pm

re: #12 jaunte
Arrrrgh.

15 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:46:15pm

1) Freedom of speech doesn’t mean anyone has to let you use their resources to spread your message.

2) Information doesn’t want to be free, it just kind of sits there and does nothing.

3) Fuck you if you think freedom of speech or freedom of information is an excuse for child porn.

16 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:46:28pm

re: #14 A Mom Anon

I agree.

17 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:47:07pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

Not totally thrilled that the first comment in this thread is supporting the publication of child porn. Gotta admit.

I need a few more downdings per comment to properly rate that one.

18 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:50:26pm

smh

19 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:51:11pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

it’s not that it’s ‘disgusting’, it’s that it’s harming a defenseless person

therefore, it’s a form of violence

20 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:51:15pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

Absolutes lead to ruin, Read some history.

21 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:54:31pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

Child porn directly hurts children.
That is unacceptable.

22 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 6:55:41pm

excuse me, i’ve got to go cry fire in a crowded theatre

23 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:01:37pm

re: #20 Political Atheist

Absolutes lead to ruin, Read some history.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

24 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:01:44pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

WTFITS

25 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:05:08pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

Ummm, no.

Seeing as this is being conducted by a business (Google), the First Amendment doesn’t even apply and, frankly, I’d thought the major search engines would’ve all been doing something like this already.

Even where the First Amendment does apply, it is not absolute.

26 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:05:37pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

It never fails to amuse me, the irony of the “Data Wants To Be Free!” crowd coming onto a privately owned, moderated site to jump atop their soapboxes.

27 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:05:57pm

re: #21 b_sharp

Child porn directly hurts children.
That is unacceptable.

Still trying to parse how on earth someone could bring “right to publish” into this. The only possible grey area I can think of would be something like this case involving a Canadian artist:

The exhibition consisted of 8 paintings and 50 drawings addressing various issues of childhood sexuality. Toronto police raided the exhibition under Canada’s new child pornography legislation and seized 5 paintings and 35 drawings. This event and ensuing media coverage created a national debate over the reach of law and freedom of expression.

In this case, one assumes the work was entirely fictional and no actual children were harmed to make it (unlike the case of photos or videos depicting real acts of child abuse).

Now, Amazon recently decided to ban the sale of written erotica portraying child abuse, and as a private company, they have every right to do that. The question then becomes, how should the law handle cases of simulated child pornography? When is it criminal, and when is it something that would be protected by the first amendment? Could laws inadvertently target someone whose work is meant to speak out against child abuse?

28 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:07:50pm

re: #26 Targetpractice

It never fails to amuse me, the irony of the “Data Wants To Be Free!” crowd coming onto a privately owned, moderated site to jump atop their soapboxes.

I don’t think that was actually someone with any form of principles,
more likely just a nasty vandal dropping a turd to get a rise out of the posters.

29 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:08:34pm

re: #28 jaunte

I don’t think that was actually someone with any form of principles,
more likely just a nasty vandal dropping a turd to get a rise out of the posters.

The equivalent of tossing a grenade into the middle of a crowd and running.

30 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:10:20pm

re: #28 jaunte

I don’t think that was actually someone with any form of principles,
more likely just a nasty vandal dropping a turd to get a rise out of the posters.

It appears to have gone back under it’s bridge for now…

31 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:11:43pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Hey dudebro, are you you stoned or just stupid?

32 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:13:56pm

re: #30 Dancing along the light of day

It appears to have gone back under it’s bridge for now…

Rhetorical: How low is using the subject of child rape to make a trolling joke?

33 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:17:02pm

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

Hey dudebro, are you you stoned or just stupid?

You forgot, “entitled as fuck” and “hopped on the fumes of abstract “freedoms” that are actual just elaborate expressions of the privileged telling everyone else they don’t get privacy.”

Dudebro freedom is always the absolute freedom of some, at the cost of freedom, dignity, and safety for others who can’t afford it.

34 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:18:18pm

re: #32 jaunte

Just another attention whore….

35 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:21:28pm

Suspended. And not for the first time.

36 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:22:18pm

re: #34 Dancing along the light of day

I didn’t write that very well. Too disgusted.

37 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:22:25pm

re: #35 Charles Johnson

Suspended. And not for the first time.

O RLY?

38 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:24:34pm
39 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:24:44pm

re: #33 The Ghost of a Flea

You forgot, “entitled as fuck” and “hopped on the fumes of abstract “freedoms” that are actual just elaborate expressions of the privileged telling everyone else they don’t get privacy.”

Dudebro freedom is always the absolute freedom of some, at the cost of freedom, dignity, and safety for others who can’t afford it.

Quite Concur.

I was fine with a dudebro troll getting clubbed tonight, but this one was just a sockpuppet, and far too rancid to roast.

40 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:25:23pm

re: #38 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video

41 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:26:46pm

re: #23 Kragar

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Do or do not, there is no try.

42 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:29:06pm
43 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:38:38pm

So yeah, Betheda’s decided to tease Fallout fans by keeping us on hold til Dec 7th.

ARGH!

44 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:42:42pm

re: #43 Targetpractice

So yeah, Betheda’s decided to tease Fallout fans by keeping us on hold til Dec 7th.

ARGH!

Look what I got:

Congratulations!

You now have access to The Elder Scrolls(r) Online BETA!

Thank you,

- The Elder Scrolls Online Team

45 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:42:45pm

And… we have another dinger who apparently thinks child pornographers have “free speech” rights.

46 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:45:25pm

Fascinating.

47 ObserverArt  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:45:50pm

re: #26 Targetpractice

It never fails to amuse me, the irony of the “Data Wants To Be Free!” crowd coming onto a privately owned, moderated site to jump atop their soapboxes.

And some of that same crowd that wants to free that data doesn’t want all that freed data collected by the government as it is spying.

Wheeeee…the data spinning wheel! Confusing? Just a bit.

48 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:45:52pm

Jeepers I just walked in the door and feel like I stepped in some shit. I’m using Dave’s toothbrush to clean it off!!!

49 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:46:30pm

re: #44 Kragar

Look what I got:

Congratulations!

You now have access to The Elder Scrolls(r) Online BETA!

Thank you,

- The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Youtube Video

50 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:46:36pm

re: #23 Kragar

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

That statement itself is an absolute though.

51 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:46:50pm

re: #26 Targetpractice

It never fails to amuse me, the irony of the “Data Wants To Be Free!” crowd coming onto a privately owned, moderated site to jump atop their soapboxes.

I’ve seen lots of data over the years. Data doesn’t want anything.

52 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:47:15pm

re: #50 Jack Burton

That statement itself is an absolute though.

You noticed that to, eh?

53 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:48:26pm

re: #50 Jack Burton

That statement itself is an absolute though.

That’s the point: Obi-Wan (and by extension, the rest of the Jedi Order, before it was largely destroyed) is hypocritical.

54 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:48:59pm

re: #52 Kragar

You noticed that to, eh?

Well I wouldn’t put the label “intelligent” on anyone involved in the writing of the steaming piles known as the Star Wars Prequels.

55 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:49:20pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

And… we have another dinger who apparently thinks child pornographers have “free speech” rights.

Strange, BishopX isn’t normally inclined towards asshattery.

56 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:49:47pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Strange, BishopX isn’t normally inclined towards asshattery.

Maybe a misding?

57 jaunte  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:49:59pm

re: #54 Jack Burton

Meesa big mistake.

58 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:50:00pm

Maybe the cat stepped on the mouse.

59 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:50:25pm

Not a fan of child porn, but what google, yahoo and microsoft did here will end up haunting them. About a year ago Cameron demanded that these companies take action or face legislation forcing them to do this. What they built is response was a system to censor their search results.

Now that they’ve announced that they have this nifty capability, every other country which wants things removed from their search results will come calling with this press release in hand.

This will make it that much harder to resit say china’s effort to remove all mention of Tianamen square.

I’d much rather google went after the actual purveyors of this stuff rather than inventing a methodology to filter the internet at in response to government pressure.

60 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:51:35pm

re: #56 Kragar

Nope…just really not a fan of google showing me what they me to see rather than what’s on the internet.

61 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:52:25pm

re: #53 AlexRogan

That’s the point: Obi-Wan (and by extension, the rest of the Jedi Order) is hypocritical.

Of course they are: Any body of intelligent beings that holds substantial power for a long time becomes hypocritical, at least in some ways. It’s born of the necessity of dodging blame in situations where the real answers are not acceptable to the public and/or to others in power.

62 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:56:14pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Strange, BishopX isn’t normally inclined towards asshattery.

re: #56 Kragar

Maybe a misding?

Looks to be no mistake.

63 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:56:29pm

re: #59 BishopX

Now that they’ve announced that they have this nifty capability, every other country which wants things removed from their search results will come calling with this press release in hand.

They have already been complying with countries about censoring Internet search results.

en.wikipedia.org

64 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:57:16pm

re: #59 BishopX

Not a fan of child porn, but what google, yahoo and microsoft did here will end up haunting them. About a year ago Cameron demanded that these companies take action or face legislation forcing them to do this. What they built is response was a system to censor their search results.

Now that they’ve announced that they have this nifty capability, every other country which wants things removed from their search results will come calling with this press release in hand.

This will make it that much harder to resit say china’s effort to remove all mention of Tianamen square.

I’d much rather google went after the actual purveyors of this stuff rather than inventing a methodology to filter the internet at in response to government pressure.

Sorry, but in this case the risks just have to be run. Google does go after the people who make and sell this shit, but its a big game of Whack-a-Mole and it is never really won. This sort of tactic offers the possiblity for real progress.

And if tyrants come with this press release in hand, Google should show them the door. The proper answer to a censorious tyrants’ emissary is “As free people from a free nation, we will not aid in the oppression others.”

65 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:57:25pm

ISP. The service provider of the most trans formative technology since electricity. Kudos to those with a conscience. Thank You Google. You do try to apply Don’t be evil.

66 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 7:59:15pm

re: #63 Rev_Arthur_Belling

The difference being that here they are targeting censorship in house. Everywhere else they get supplied with the list.

67 Belafon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:00:50pm

I suspect it has taken them so long because this is hard, because, for one thing, an eighteen year old girl that looks sixteen can legally post her pictures online. And while we can sit here and say that a private company can do whatever it wants, remember the noise when Google and other companies decided to comply with Chinese requests to censor and report suspicious people to the government. We as liberals know by definition that the world is pretty complex, and that a company like Google doesn’t necessarily get to escape from First Amendment issues. Imagine if they silently started scrubbing all references to Rachel Maddow from their search results, or was giving all of the searches to third parties.

68 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:01:44pm

re: #66 BishopX

No, they go by local laws. In this case, they pre-emptively agreed to do something before Britain made it a law. You said “every other country which wants things removed from their search results will come calling with this press release in hand.” They don’t need this press release. Google already complies with requests in the form of legislation, even in the U.S. It’s called DMCA.

69 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:02:12pm

re: #59 BishopX

This will make it that much harder to resit say china’s effort to remove all mention of Tianamen square.

Teflon incline detected.

70 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:03:24pm

With about 20% of the vote in as of now, Albuquerque’s late-term abortion ban is failing ,55-45

71 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:03:31pm

re: #68 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Again, the difference is no where else in does google employee people to seek out content to be censored.

72 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:03:35pm

re: #59 BishopX

Not a fan of child porn, but what google, yahoo and microsoft did here will end up haunting them. About a year ago Cameron demanded that these companies take action or face legislation forcing them to do this. What they built is response was a system to censor their search results.

Now that they’ve announced that they have this nifty capability, every other country which wants things removed from their search results will come calling with this press release in hand.

This will make it that much harder to resit say china’s effort to remove all mention of Tianamen square.

I’d much rather google went after the actual purveyors of this stuff rather than inventing a methodology to filter the internet at in response to government pressure.

Repeat after me: Google is not a law enforcement agency.

They have no more power to “[go] after the actual purveyors of this stuff” than you or I do.

They, as a private party, are not constrained by the First Amendment; however, money talks, so if you don’t like what they are doing, don’t patronize them or do things that put money in their pocket.

Pretty simple logic to me.

73 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:03:38pm

It’s also helpful to remember that there is no First Amendment anywhere else in the world, and if Google has a subsidiary in another country, it has to abide by the laws of that country.

74 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:05:21pm

re: #72 AlexRogan

I don’t want them to kick down a door. Just picked up the phone and call local law enforcement.

75 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:05:35pm

re: #73 Rev_Arthur_Belling

It’s also helpful to remember that there is no First Amendment anywhere else in the world,

eh?

76 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:06:11pm

re: #71 BishopX

Again, the difference is no where else in does google employee people to seek out content to be censored.

No, they use algorithms. You’re moving a goalpost.

77 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:06:26pm

re: #50 Jack Burton

That statement itself is an absolute though.

All generalizations are false, including this one.

78 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:07:36pm

re: #74 BishopX

I don’t want them to kick down a door. Just picked up the phone and call local law enforcement.

You know, to an extent, so can you if you see something like that.

79 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:09:30pm

re: #74 BishopX

I don’t want them to kick down a door. Just picked up the phone and call local law enforcement.

Why do you give a shit what they choose to do with their network? You don’t own it and it’s not the commons so their biz is their biz. They aren’t the only search engine on the internet so I don’t understand this weird notion that they have some obligation to continue delivering search results for images they think clearly portray child exploitation?

80 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:09:47pm

re: #78 AlexRogan

Yes. I can, and will if I do find it.

81 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:09:53pm

re: #75 SpaceJesus

What about that statement is hard to understand? It’s why British papers operate under stricter libel laws and trial disclosure laws than do papers in the U.S. Certainly, there are countries with many of the same rights codified somewhere, but there is nothing akin to the FA and its associated speech and press freedoms.

And it’s why, if Google is going to operate Google.fr and have a subsidiary there, they will have to censor hate speech and Holocause denial sites.

82 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:10:08pm

Hello lizards. Did I come at a bad time? Child porn on Google support? Really?

83 jvic  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:10:23pm

The last paragraph in the link:

But despite Google’s best efforts, new search filters sadly won’t remove child porn from the internet on their own. BBC News cites a report from Cameron’s own Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre that explains most child pornography can’t be found through Google or Bing searches, existing instead on peer-to-peer networks or on the “deep web,” protected by anonymity software such as Tor. Without large companies such as Google acting as gatekeepers in these darker corners of the internet, Cameron will need to look elsewhere for “great brains” to continue his campaign.

Child pornography is an especially vile special case, but there is little doubt in my mind that the powers that be would love to eliminate privacy on the Internet, and not only on the Internet. I give them an inch wrt child pornography, but I fully expect them to try to take a yard.

84 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:12:04pm

re: #83 jvic

The last paragraph in the link:

Child pornography is an especially vile special case, but there is little doubt in my mind that the powers that be would love to eliminate privacy on the Internet, and not only on the Internet. I give them an inch wrt child pornography, but I fully expect them to try to take a yard.

No offense intended, jvic, but that sounds like something Glenn Greenwald might say.

85 Shazam  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:13:09pm

re: #44 Kragar

Look what I got:

Congratulations!

You now have access to The Elder Scrolls(r) Online BETA!

Thank you,

- The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Just got this today as well and I am excited. Too bad I have to work most of this weekend.

86 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:14:11pm

Wow. The pro-child porn contingent is weighing in tonight.

87 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:14:50pm

re: #79 goddamnedfrank

I’m an American. I hold dear my right to give a shit about things that’re none of my business.

It’s they’re network. I can’t stop them. but I can complain.

88 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:15:10pm

re: #81 Rev_Arthur_Belling

What’s hard to understand is that the statement is completely wrong.

89 blueraven  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:15:22pm

For those who don’t like the Google position on this, there are other search engines. Free Market baby. Step right up, get your kiddie porn here.

thesearchenginelist.com

90 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:18:31pm

re: #87 BishopX

You can also stop using them..
Just sayin’!

91 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:18:37pm

re: #83 jvic

The last paragraph in the link:

Child pornography is an especially vile special case, but there is little doubt in my mind that the powers that be would love to eliminate privacy on the Internet, and not only on the Internet. I give them an inch wrt child pornography, but I fully expect them to try to take a yard.

Um, you do know who invented TOR don’t you? We did, through the Naval Research Laboratory. The US government, mostly State Dept. continues to provide 80% of the project’s funding.

Yes it’s a double edged sword, but we’re very much for privacy on the Internet because it’s one of the best methods for creating and fostering dissident networks inside totalitarian regimes.

92 Mattand  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:19:20pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

Wow. The pro-child porn contingent is weighing in tonight.

Just checked in. As soon as I saw the headline on this post, my first thought was “How soon before the ‘Child porn is a false flag’ or ‘Child porn is actually a form of freedom’ crew chime in?”

93 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:20:12pm

re: #90 Dancing along the light of day

You can also stop using them..
Just sayin’!

It’s best not to climb Stupid Trees when Floral is around. She’ll knock you right outta them. ;)

94 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:21:01pm

re: #88 SpaceJesus

Fill me in then.

95 jvic  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:21:07pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

Wow. The pro-child porn contingent is weighing in tonight.

Excuse me?

I explicitly said that child porn is so vile that it calls for exceptional measures.

96 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:21:13pm

It’s absolutely amazing to me that anyone would try to argue that Google shouldn’t try to stop child porn spreading through their search engine. What the fuck?

97 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:24:17pm

re: #94 Rev_Arthur_Belling

Scandinavia comes to mind first. In fact, they have a history of defending freedom of the press and freedom of speech and expression that is most robust than ours.

98 jvic  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:26:14pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

It’s absolutely amazing to me that anyone would try to argue that Google shouldn’t try to stop child porn spreading through their search engine. What the fuck?

It’s amazing to me too, which is why I downdinged the first comment in this thread.

99 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:26:22pm

The war on women’s first ever attempt to limit abortion on the municipal level is projected to fail tonight.


koat.com

100 Shazam  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:28:01pm

I figured Google was already blocking illegal porn as much as they could. Sure some of it might slip through, but I imagine it would take some pretty amazing Google-Fu to find it.

101 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:30:15pm

Early voters seem to have been the major force behind defeating this crock of shit ordinance that would have been ruled unconstitutional in about 5 seconds.

abcnews.go.com

102 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:30:23pm

re: #100 Shazam

Read the article, it’s having to be done manually.

103 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:30:46pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

It’s absolutely amazing to me that anyone would try to argue that Google shouldn’t try to stop child porn spreading through their search engine. What the fuck?

True, but to be fair that isn’t what jvic did. He made clear that though he has serious concerns, the wrong being opposed is so great as to override said concerns.

In my mind that is sufficient to avoid the odium of association with the sockpuppet whose turd of a comment is at the top of the thread.

104 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:30:52pm

re: #87 BishopX

that’re

issues aside, i am happy to collect a live free range example of new frontiers in contractions

105 dr. klys  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:31:35pm

I’m gonna sit here and try to figure out what purpose is served by having child porn show up in Google results.

Still not coming up with anything.

106 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:33:30pm

re: #97 SpaceJesus

Reading the wiki page on censorship in Sweden, I stand corrected. Although they seemed to have some bumps along the way as well. And that remains the exception, rather than the rule.

107 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:34:32pm

re: #87 BishopX

I’m an American. I hold dear my right to give a shit about things that’re none of my business.

It’s they’re network. I can’t stop them. but I can complain.

Okay, but why should they continue to serve up content that depicts and that they reasonably know to have been created via the sexual exploitation of children?

I’m sorry but objectively your “freedom” to access the entirety of the information contained on the internet isn’t a very compelling reason. In this context your freedom is just hypothetical, an abstract, although I’m sure it feels subjectively real to you. You want to be able to access all that there is to access even if you never will and there’s no legitimate plausible reason for you to. You’re pitting this abstract notion of your personal freedom against the very concrete suffering of innocents and the harm perpetuated by an underground market that pathologically trades on that suffering.

To put it bluntly, I’m seeing a very immature, me me now perspective articulated with almost none of the complexity and nuance we all know to be the hallmark of actual reality.

108 Shazam  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:35:15pm

re: #102 Dancing along the light of day

They said they’re having individuals decide what is pornography and what is simply family photos of kids who happen to be nude, not that there are massive amounts of websites dedicated to child pornography that are indexed by Google. I would imagine that if you used any combination of search terms that you think would lead you to child pornography, the first million results would be anti-child porn sites or news about child porn stings or how to protect your kids online or sites for getting help.

Besides, I’d think anyone looking for that stuff would avoid Google for privacy and/or paranoia reasons.

109 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:35:39pm

re: #104 dog philosopher

Well I’m glad I could be of some amusement tonight.

110 jvic  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:37:39pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

No offense intended, jvic, but that sounds like something Glenn Greenwald might say.

I don’t read Greenwald.

That the Devil quotes scripture is not a reason to stop quoting scripture. That rogues and charlatans hitch themselves to worthy causes doesn’t invalidate those causes.

111 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:39:32pm

re: #109 BishopX

Well I’m glad I could be of some amusement tonight.

i don’t think there’s anything incorrect about it - it might catch on

112 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:40:13pm

re: #110 jvic

I don’t read Greenwald.

That the Devil quotes scripture is not a reason to stop quoting scripture. That rogues and charlatans hitch themselves to worthy causes doesn’t invalidate those causes.

True.

113 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:41:30pm

i don’t think any slippery slope argument applies to google filtering out child porn

the first amendment is no defense for criminal activity, and nobody has any obligation to serve as a medium for criminal activity

114 jvic  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:49:05pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

Um, you do know who invented TOR don’t you? We did, through the Naval Research Laboratory. The US government, mostly State Dept. continues to provide 80% of the project’s funding.

I didn’t but now I do.

Yes it’s a double edged sword…

That’s my whole point.

…but we’re very much for privacy on the Internet because it’s one of the best methods for creating and fostering dissident networks inside totalitarian regimes.

Agreed, although I was thinking of it as a fundamental right. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 12:

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

I had in mind things like the Clinton administration’s attempt to ban the export of strong encryption and that iirc the feds for years hassled Phil Zimmermann, inventor of Pretty Good Privacy.

115 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:51:30pm

re: #107 goddamnedfrank

Okay, but why should they continue to serve up content that depicts and that they reasonably know to have been created via the sexual exploitation of children?

I’m sorry but objectively your “freedom” to access the entirety of the information contained on the internet isn’t a very compelling reason. In this context your freedom is just hypothetical, an abstract, although I’m sure it feels subjectively real to you. You want to be able to access all that there is to access even if you never will and there’s no legitimate plausible reason for you to. You’re pitting this abstract notion of your personal freedom against the very concrete suffering of innocents and the harm perpetuated by an underground market that pathologically trades on that suffering.

To put it bluntly, I’m seeing a very immature, me me now perspective articulated with almost none of the complexity and nuance we all know to be the hallmark of actual reality.

I think you’re overstating how much this impedes child pornographers and under estimating the long term effects of this.

The way I view this is that it introduces further structural weaknesses into the internet for marginal gain.

Google isn’t stopping child from being produced, and stripping it out of search results won’t make it disappear (them providing to technical assistance to various anti-child porn groups is a laudable step in this direction though).

What google et all are doing is further increasing the space between what’s actually on the internet and what’s actually searchable on the internet. Every time that happens it weakens what the internet was built for, the free exchange of information.

This is the same reason I dislike personalized search results, and many of the other changes google is rolling out so much, they present increasing barriers to finding what is there rather than what you expect to be there.

116 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:54:00pm

re: #111 dog philosopher

i don’t think there’s anything incorrect about it - it might catch on

Hell, if twenty years of year over apostrophe’d fantasy novels can’t introduce some creative punctuation into my writing I’m not about to complain.

117 bratwurst  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:55:14pm

Finally! It is about time we had an AMERICAN politician on drugs!

Rep. Trey Radel (R-FL) charged with cocaine possession

(Naturally, far from the worst behavior the Florida congressional delegation has ever been accused of, but still…)

118 dr. klys  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 8:58:24pm

re: #115 BishopX

I think you’re overstating how much this impedes child pornographers and under estimating the long term effects of this.

The way I view this is that it introduces further structural weaknesses into the internet for marginal gain.

Google isn’t stopping child from being produced, and stripping it out of search results won’t make it disappear (them providing to technical assistance to various anti-child porn groups is a laudable step in this direction though).

What google et all are doing is further increasing the space between what’s actually on the internet and what’s actually searchable on the internet. Every time that happens it weakens what the internet was built for, the free exchange of information.

This is the same reason I dislike personalized search results, and many of the other changes google is rolling out so much, they present increasing barriers to finding what is there rather than what you expect to be there.

I was unaware that Google was the entire Internet.

But hey, if you think the Internet is that much weaker because some people are trying to stand in the way of the free exchange of images of people raping small children, ok. I am free to think you are, at best, an idiot.

119 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:06:42pm

patriarchal sons of bitches get black eye tonight

msnbc.com

as a city attorney, i was not looking forward to having to defend this nonsense from the inevitable ACLU challenge. this saves us a lot of money, protects women, and decreases the likelihood of these idiots trying this shit against other cash-strapped cities.

120 prairiefire  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:09:32pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Kaboomspray.

121 prairiefire  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:10:51pm

re: #119 SpaceJesus

Oh my gosh, a city attorney! I would have sent you a tie! Congrats!

122 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:15:13pm

re: #121 prairiefire

i’m not THE city attorney, just one of his minions

123 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:21:51pm

soylent green on tcm - the set design gives an impression not very much of being in the future but rather of being transported back in time to the 70s visiting people with unusually bad taste

124 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:23:07pm

re: #123 dog philosopher

soylent green on tcm - the set design gives an impression not very much of being in the future but rather of being transported back in time to the 70s visiting people with unusually bad taste

Yeah, a lot of scifi from the last 30 years has not aged well.

125 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:25:00pm

re: #115 BishopX

What google et all are doing is further increasing the space between what’s actually on the internet and what’s actually searchable on the internet.

Google is not the internet and it’s not the only way to search for what is on the internet. This kind of conflation is patently ridiculous, and you keep repeating variants of this claim in the face of multiple people who’ve corrected the error. While claiming to understand that Google is a private company you again and again voice expectations that they should operate like a public utility agency lest the abstract “internet” suffer irreparable damage.

Every time that happens it weakens what the internet was built for, the free exchange of information.

It doesn’t weaken anything because Google isn’t the internet. It isn’t even a necessary part of the internet, and the internet wasn’t built to feed your insatiable desire for access to everything imaginable. It’s always had constraints, in the beginning most notably on commercial uses. Yes it was built to exchange information, but not without any restrictions, it’s always had gateways. The institutional servers connected to it have always guarded certain levels of access.

The idea of freedom that’s evolved around the internet has always been more of a religious article of faith than actual reality. Information doesn’t want to be free, it doesn’t want anything.

126 prairiefire  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:26:06pm

...

127 prairiefire  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:27:45pm

re: #122 SpaceJesus

Of course, a prosecutor, for JUSTICE!!

128 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:33:10pm

It’s like I was watching Robocop the other day and getting chuckles out of “future” cops driving around in late-80s model Ford Tauruses, news stories about the Star Wars missile defense platform and South Africa buying a French neutron bomb, and CRT TVs and monitors everywhere.

Almost makes me dread the remake, if only because nothing will match the sheer cheesiness side-by-side with the amounts of gore that only Paul Verhoeven could put on the screen.

129 BishopX  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:40:44pm

re: #125 goddamnedfrank

No google isn’t the internet, no google isn’t the only search engine in town and no information doesn’t want to be free.

But google, yahoo and bing comprise about 80% of the market. That’s big enough actions by those companies have large impacts on how the internet behaves.

As for the concept of gateways, I would prefer them to have as little power to sway content as possible. Right now google has too much influence imo.

130 AlexRogan  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:41:10pm

re: #86 Charles Johnson

Wow. The pro-child porn contingent is weighing in tonight.

You know that, even with the varied membership that LGF has, you wouldn’t think that anyone using common sense would be opposed to an effort by anyone in the private sector, especially a company as huge as Google, to self-police something as vile as child porn.

Yet, here we are, with a few that apparently feel that it’s an attack on their First Amendment rights or something.

Makes a body want to headdesk themselves into oblivion.

131 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:43:24pm

I’m thinking that child porn trumps “Fire in a crowded theatre” big donkey balls.

132 dr. klys  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:43:28pm

re: #129 BishopX

Your ISP is a gateway to the Internet.

Google is not.

Please do not confuse the two.

133 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:44:55pm

re: #119 SpaceJesus

patriarchal sons of bitches get black eye tonight

msnbc.com

as a city attorney, i was not looking forward to having to defend this nonsense from the inevitable ACLU challenge. this saves us a lot of money, protects women, and decreases the likelihood of these idiots trying this shit against other cash-strapped cities.

WOOT!!!

134 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:45:43pm

re: #122 SpaceJesus

i’m not THE city attorney, just one of his minions

I learned how to initiate Orders of Protection today to aid the Advocate at our local DV shelter. Not difficult, but kind of mind blowing.

135 prairiefire  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:47:38pm

re: #134 FemNaziBitch

I learned how to initiate Orders of Protection today to aid the Advocate at our local DV shelter. Not difficult, but kind of mind blowing.

I love our judicial system. Many blue stockinged ladies in early America made sure it was here for the long term.

136 Teukka  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:48:15pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

No offense intended, jvic, but that sounds like something Glenn Greenwald might say.

Until you realize how poorly the laws are written, and what loopholes they have. With regard to child pornography.

137 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:48:33pm

IIRC, child pornography is not just a crime, it’s an international crime —no?

138 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:52:45pm

re: #134 FemNaziBitch

Nice, that’s good work. I’m not a prosecutor though. I’m an ACA, I do civil work. Lots of people think city attoney’s are the same as district attorneys. Nope. I protect the city from suits, I sue on behalf of the City and I write ordinances for the council.

139 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:53:39pm

re: #138 SpaceJesus

Nice, that’s good work. I’m not a prosecutor though. I’m an ACA, I do civil work. Lots of people think city attoney’s are the same as district attorneys. Nope. I protect the city from suits, I sue on behalf of the City and I write ordinances for the council.

sounds a bit less stressful than District Attorney.

140 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:55:17pm

On a lighter note —my son has aided me in committing treason. It’s my birthday and he bought me a Starbucks gift card.

141 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:56:56pm

re: #137 FemNaziBitch

IIRC, child pornography is not just a crime, it’s an international crime —no?

not to mention immoral

142 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:58:08pm

re: #124 Targetpractice

Yeah, a lot of scifi from the last 30 years has not aged well.

The Thing remains a classic

143 freetoken  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 9:58:57pm

re: #137 FemNaziBitch

Historical oddity:

In the 12th century Gratian, the influential founder of Canon law in medieval Europe, accepted age of puberty for marriage to be between 12 and 14 but acknowledged consent to be meaningful if the children were older than 7. There were authorities that said that consent could take place earlier. Marriage would then be valid as long as neither of the two parties annulled the marital agreement before reaching puberty, or if they had already consummated the marriage. It should be noted that Judges honored marriages based on mutual consent at ages younger than 7, in spite of what Gratian had said; there are recorded marriages of 2 and 3 year olds.[2]

And:

There is no international age of consent and the age when a person is legally able to consent to sex depends on a country’s age of consent laws. Age of consent laws are usually complex and, in many countries, the legal age to consent to sex is different depending on certain conditions. These include but are not limited to: Male or female; anal sex; vaginal sex; partner age difference; a partner that represents a position of authority; variations between state, territory and federal laws; whether partners are married or unmarried. See individual country references below for specific conditions that modify the age of consent. Being aware of global variations in the age of consent is important to avoid breaking the law in countries that have laws different to your country of residence. - See more at: avert.org

That of course is just “consent”. “Pornography” is literally the writing about prostitution, implying writing about sex. As such pornography laws are different than consent laws, but still, there will be found wide differences world wide about this issue.

144 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:04:39pm

re: #139 FemNaziBitch

Eh, some of these suits expose us to millions in liability. Different kind of stress.

145 jvic  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:08:56pm

re: #137 FemNaziBitch

IIRC, child pornography is not just a crime, it’s an international crime —no?

True.

146 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:09:24pm

re: #119 SpaceJesus

patriarchal sons of bitches get black eye tonight

msnbc.com

as a city attorney, i was not looking forward to having to defend this nonsense from the inevitable ACLU challenge. this saves us a lot of money, protects women, and decreases the likelihood of these idiots trying this shit against other cash-strapped cities.

Nice to see some good news among all the broviation on this thread.

147 Lidane  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:09:27pm

re: #1 DaveBarnes

“Child porn” isn’t information. It isn’t even porn. It’s the evidence of a crime. It blows my mind that anyone would try and find an equivalence here. WTF.

148 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:13:00pm

re: #147 Lidane

“Child porn” isn’t information. It isn’t even porn. It’s the evidence of a crime. It blows my mind that anyone would try and find an equivalence here. WTF.

Thank you for stating that. I had similar thoughts but am so freaked that I couldn’t translate them into a post.

149 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:13:41pm

More happy thoughts.

or Another, but good, reason to cry.

also Paged.

150 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:14:26pm

Charles, can you finagle an exception. I’d like to downding the first post again.

151 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:16:34pm

If for no other reason, Child Porn needs to be censored to protect the privacy of the CHILD. A person who cannot give consent to participation.

152 Lidane  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:17:10pm

For the sci-fi nerds in the house, one of the most thorough Doctor Who infographics ever:

nerdist.com

153 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:18:11pm

If you think to yourself, “Yeah, child porn is bad, but…” then I urge you not post whatever nugget of wisdom you had just thought of and to go and get psychiatric help at once

154 Mentis Fugit  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:18:12pm

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

I was fine with a dudebro troll getting clubbed tonight, but this one was just a sockpuppet, and far too rancid to roast.

Cremation is the only solution, to be followed by the ceremonial spreading of the ashes over a sewage pond.

As for the direct subject, we don’t ever call it “information”. The prosecution calls it “evidence”.

155 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:22:58pm

re: #140 FemNaziBitch

On a lighter note —my son has aided me in committing treason. It’s my birthday and he bought me a Starbucks gift card.

Happy Birthday!

156 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:31:41pm

Speaking of cremation, I’ve broken out my Salamanders and getting ready to bring them to the table again.

Image: Vulkan_the_Salamander_by_MajesticChicken.jpg

Image: Salamanders_vs._Orks.png

157 dr. klys  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:36:37pm

I made steamed mussels (in beer) for the husband for dinner tonight. The first time I’ve ever tried cooking them. He liked it though.

Now I have been working on more beading. Christmas is coming…

158 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:39:23pm

re: #157 klys

I made steamed mussels (in beer) for the husband for dinner tonight. The first time I’ve ever tried cooking them. He liked it though.

Now I have been working on more beading. Christmas is coming…

oooh, I was into beading for a while. It can be addicting.

159 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:41:04pm

I’ve got to get some chores done.

oh, it’s after midnight —you think I should be saying I’m going to bed?

Yeah, welcome to menopause.

160 dr. klys  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:41:34pm

re: #158 FemNaziBitch

oooh, I was into beading for a while. It can be addicting.

This is with cross-stitching, as an accent to the piece. I do ornaments and magnets this way. Doing a harp for my harp teacher (stitching done, beading not) and then this colonial-era Santa for my mom (she does colonial-era re-enactment).

And I should do another snowman for my mother-in-law but I haven’t done any of the stitching yet…

161 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 10:46:37pm

re: #159 FemNaziBitch

I’ve got to get some chores done.

oh, it’s after midnight —you think I should be saying I’m going to bed?

Yeah, welcome to menopause.

Would you give up coffee if it would make it better?

162 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:04:54pm
163 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:05:23pm
164 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:12:08pm

Eh? ABQ?

165 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:12:44pm

Got my ESO account set up, got the beta version installed and patched and ready to roll on Friday night

166 Lidane  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:15:50pm

re: #164 Targetpractice

Eh? ABQ?

usnews.nbcnews.com

167 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:17:19pm

ayn rand’s the fountainhead hollywood movie overselling the conventionality and stifling of innovation. i never heard of anybody getting kicked out of architecture school in the 20th century because of desire to not merely reproduce the designs of the past

howard roark is presented as struggling because of prejudice against modernism yet his designs look like frank lloyd wright who i recall was not exactly broke and obscure

168 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:19:13pm
169 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:20:56pm

re: #165 Kragar

Got my ESO account set up, got the beta version installed and patched and ready to roll on Friday night

May Sheogorath skip rope with your entrails.

//

170 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:28:32pm

performances in the fountainhead involving a lot of torrid glowering and emotional breathing

171 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:29:50pm

re: #170 dog philosopher

performances in the fountainhead involving a lot of torrid glowering and emotional breathing

You’re not in NM, right?

172 dog philosopher  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:33:46pm

re: #171 wrenchwench

You’re not in NM, right?

[Embedded content]

heh

dat ain’t me!

173 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:36:44pm
174 freetoken  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:50:41pm
175 gwangung  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:51:40pm

re: #162 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Um, immigrants who tend to be Catholic? Who tend to be more anti-abortion than their American counterparts?

Ah, no….doesn’t pass the sniff test.

176 Kragar  Tue, Nov 19, 2013 11:58:59pm

re: #175 gwangung

Um, immigrants who tend to be Catholic? Who tend to be more anti-abortion than their American counterparts?

Ah, no….doesn’t pass the sniff test.

Anything to support their collapsing reality.

177 Lidane  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:01:23am

re: #175 gwangung

Um, immigrants who tend to be Catholic? Who tend to be more anti-abortion than their American counterparts?

Ah, no….doesn’t pass the sniff test.

Not only that, but isn’t the anti-immigrant ARGLE BARGLE usually that they’re invading Real America and having anchor babies by the truckload to upset the natural order of things? How the fuck does that derp reconcile with immigrants wanting more abortions?

178 Lidane  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:09:54am
179 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 2:05:48am

re: #177 Lidane

Not only that, but isn’t the anti-immigrant ARGLE BARGLE usually that they’re invading Real America and having anchor babies by the truckload to upset the natural order of things? How the fuck does that derp reconcile with immigrants wanting more abortions?

Remember that when you scratch the current anti-immigration movement, you find nutbags that believe in stuff like “demographic winter” and that the white parts of the world are being invaded by brown people conspiring to outbreed the whites.

180 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 2:28:02am

re: #178 Lidane

[Embedded content]

The comments to that story are awful.

181 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 2:50:00am

re: #177 Lidane

Not only that, but isn’t the anti-immigrant ARGLE BARGLE usually that they’re invading Real America and having anchor babies by the truckload to upset the natural order of things? How the fuck does that derp reconcile with immigrants wanting more abortions?

Immigration = Evil
Abortion = Evil

ergo

Immigration = Abortion

182 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:14:29am

re: #86 Charles Johnson

Wow. The pro-child porn contingent is weighing in tonight.

Serously, WTF.

183 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:15:49am

re: #83 jvic

The last paragraph in the link:

Child pornography is an especially vile special case, but there is little doubt in my mind that the powers that be would love to eliminate privacy on the Internet, and not only on the Internet. I give them an inch wrt child pornography, but I fully expect them to try to take a yard.

Standard dudebro argument is that Internet surveillance is not for catching criminals or terrorists but TO SPY ON US ALL AND CONTROL US!!!

I want to see more accountability and responsibility for people we have empowered to maintain our secuirty and liberites (through surveillance when necessary) but I do not subscribe to the article of faith that they are doing it out of sheer evil.

184 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:17:58am

Ok.
Fine.
Two can play this silly game.
I want all bank account numbers on the webs.
IT WANTS TO BE FREE AND IN MY HANDS!!!

186 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:30:05am
187 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:30:58am

re: #185 Varek Raith

Oklahoma Drops National Guard Benefits For All Couples To Avoid Serving Same-Sex Couples

To respect their feelings, Oklahoma could be assured that no National
Guard units with gay servicemembers will be sent to restore their fair state when the next tornado/fire/flood/blizzard hits.

188 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:31:39am

‘Morning, all.

189 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:32:08am

I don’t understand why this was ever an issue.

You don’t have the right to engage in criminal activities.

190 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:32:30am

Anywho, the first comment really pissed me off.
I’m good now.


Good morning everyone.

191 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 3:38:46am

re: #190 Varek Raith

Anywho, the first comment really pissed me off.
I’m good now.

Good morning everyone.

Reads like standard dumb libertarian overreach, but a stretch to make it pro-child porn.

192 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:08:19am

re: #191 Decatur Deb

Reads like standard dumb libertarian over-reach, but a stretch to make it pro-child porn.

Not a stretch to include it as pro-crime, though. And child pornography is criminal activity, depending on the country. For instance, in some countries it may be legal for 16 yr olds to give consent to it, but not in the US.

Wouldn’t surprise me if the writer wasn’t a 30-something who likes to screw 13 yr olds and can’t maintain a relationship with an adult.

I can’t tell you how many times I have heard people (and it’s almost always been men or non-thinking women) argue that the age of consent should be lowered, usually to much less than it already is. There is something mentally unbalanced about people who cannot confine their sexual urges to relationships with consenting adults and continually seek out young people who cannot give consent legally. What that tells me is that on the whole, but not entirely, that child sex is an extension of sexual oppression, not “liberation” for the child, as pedos like to argue.

And many use religion as a basis for their pedophilia, too. Who can forget the Mormon fundie Warren Jeffs and others, along with the child-brides and arranged marriages of minors in other religions?

193 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:12:49am

re: #192 Justanotherhuman

Not a stretch to include it as pro-crime, though. And child pornography is criminal activity, depending on the country. For instance, in some countries it may be legal for 16 yr olds to give consent to it, but not in the US.

Wouldn’t surprise me if the writer wasn’t a 30-something who likes to screw 13 yr olds and can’t maintain a relationship with an adult.

I can’t tell you how many times I have heard people (and it’s almost always been men or non-thinking women) argue that the age of consent should be lowered, usually to much less than it already is. There is something mentally unbalanced about people who cannot confine their sexual urges to relationships with consenting adults and continually seek out young people who cannot give consent legally. What that tells me is that on the whole, but not entirely, that child sex is an extension of sexual oppression, not “liberation” for the child, as pedos like to argue.

And many use religion as a basis for their pedophilia, too. Who can forget the Mormon fundie Warren Jeffs and others, along with the child-brides and arranged marriages of minors in other religions?

Commenter turned out to be some kind of suspended troll anyway. The argument I don’t see this morning is that Google might have had no choice—if they were cognizant of ongoing crime, failure to act could be seen as some form of facilitation. But that’s for the lawyers.

194 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:15:44am

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept of child pornography and sex trafficking being information that falls under some kind of protection.

195 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:18:22am

re: #60 BishopX

Nope…just really not a fan of google showing me what they me to see rather than what’s on the internet.

Google’s algorithms already taxonimically distort the internet. You can read more about the process whereby they alter their searches here: google.com

Basically, they make changes based primarily on whether their audience likes the changes they make. Since most people will absolutely abhor child porn on a moral level, there is absolutely a reason for Google to remove it from the search list.

196 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:20:03am

re: #194 A Mom Anon

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept of child pornography and sex trafficking being information that falls under some kind of protection.

It’s what happens when any principle is carried to an illogical conclusion. The Second Amendment equivalent is maintaining that a consortium of private citizens have the right to an affordable nuclear weapon. (Yes—that’s been maintained on the Internet.)

197 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:20:14am

Mornin’ everyone. Looking forward to going home today…after some more surfing, of course.

198 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:21:32am

Looks like Eddie’s making more friends…


That boy’s going to hurt himself one of these days.

199 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:24:47am
200 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:39:51am

re: #194 A Mom Anon

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept of child pornography and sex trafficking being information that falls under some kind of protection.

Well, I can construct a very partial defense against it. I’m actually wildly anti-censorship, though let me reiterate that this is in reference to government action, not to private action. And in the end, I’m entirely for the banning of child porn both privately and by the government, and I also think the adult pornography industry needs a lot more investigation into the conditions of employment and the amount of coercion there.

We allow, currently, for gory crime scene photos, photos which show the aftermath of a terrible, horrible crime, to be reproduced and spread around the internet. There is journalistic merit to this that nearly everyone sees, even if it seems abhorrent to us that people are literally profiting about this. There was a famous NYC photographer, Weegee, (who said dumb names came about on the internet?) who specialized in the kind of film-noir style murder scene photography that came to be so iconic.

There is reason to believe that some spree killers, mass killers, etc. know that their actions will gain them attention and that this is part of their motivation. I think that it’s true, that some killers are motivated by the idea of what they’ve done being seen by others, and that if we didn’t sensationalize death and suffering in the way we do, we’d have fewer mass killings.

Yet, I’m still highly against censorship of photos of murder victims and videos of murder: I think the right of the public to know and see the conditions that crimes were committed under, and the way the police respond to them, is important, and I don’t think the (statistically) small effect it has is important.

This argument can be transposed to child porn: that publication of it as a record of a crime, in the same way. Yes, some sickos will gain pleasure from it, but some asshole racists also gain pleasure from pictures of lynchings, pictures of Trayvon Martin dead, etc.

The main problems with this argument are twofold. First, actual child porn is very different from these records of murders. Records of murders take place after the fact, or if during, are from static cameras, like security cam videos, which place the crime as happening in the public sphere; child porn is created intentionally, and that aspect of presentation matters, it has influence in the way the information is received. If we had very large numbers of killers recording their own crimes and selling them— the mostly mythical snuff films— then we would respond heavily to that problem. But we don’t. So with murder, we have a situation where we painfully allow pictures that may humiliate, wound, anger, dismay the families and friends of victims, because there is real journalistic and public interest in those photos. Obviously, sometimes this steps over the line, but censoring it would be problematic. There is no such problem with child porn: child porn is by its nature a ‘positive’ packaging of a criminal act, it is presenting the crime as not a crime, and there is sufficient societal interest in repressing it, for the sake of victims, for the sake of sociological attitudes towards child porn, etc. We don’t have an ongoing societal problem of people torturing others who they then kill and selling those videos; we do have a problem with people torturing children sexually and selling those pictures/videos. Basically, you’re not really censoring the information you’re attacking the means of production of that information, which cannot occur in anything other than a horrific and terrible way.

And that’s not even getting into the fact that the victims are children, and that we treat children’s participation in public sphere very differently.

201 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:49:35am

re: #200 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Well, I can construct a very partial defense against it. I’m actually wildly anti-censorship, though let me reiterate that this is in reference to government action, not to private action.

We allow, currently, for gory crime scene photos, photos which show the aftermath of a terrible, horrible crime, to be reproduced and spread around the internet. There is journalistic merit to this that nearly everyone sees, even if it seems abhorrent to us that people are literally profiting about this. There was a famous NYC photographer, Weegee, (who said dumb names came about on the internet?) who specialized in the kind of film-noir style murder scene photography that came to be so iconic.

There is reason to believe that some spree killers, mass killers, etc. know that their actions will gain them attention and that this is part of their motivation. I think that it’s true, that some killers are motivated by the idea of what they’ve done being seen by others, and that if we didn’t sensationalize death and suffering in the way we do, we’d have fewer mass killings.

Yet, I’m still highly against censorship of photos of murder victims and videos of murder: I think the right of the public to know and see the conditions that crimes were committed under, and the way the police respond to them, is important, and I don’t think the (statistically) small effect it has is important.

This argument can be transposed to child porn: that publication of it as a record of a crime, in the same way. Yes, some sickos will gain pleasure from it, but some asshole racists also gain pleasure from pictures of lynchings, pictures of Trayvon Martin dead, etc.

The main problems with this argument are twofold. First, actual child porn is very different from these records of murders. Records of murders take place after the fact, or if during, are from static cameras, like security cam videos, which place the crime as happening in the public sphere; child porn is created intentionally, and that aspect of presentation matters, it has influence in the way the information is received. If we had very large numbers of killers recording their own crimes and selling them— the mostly mythical snuff films— then we would respond heavily to that problem. But we don’t. So with murder, we have a situation where we painfully allow pictures that may humiliate, wound, anger, dismay the families and friends of victims, because there is real journalistic and public interest in those photos. Obviously, sometimes this steps over the line, but censoring it would be problematic. There is no such problem with child porn: child porn is by its nature a ‘positive’ packaging of a criminal act, it is presenting the crime as not a crime, and there is sufficient societal interest in repressing it, for the sake of victims, for the sake of sociological attitudes towards child porn, etc. We don’t have a problem of people torturing others who they then kill and selling those videos; we do have a problem with people torturing children sexually and selling those victims.

And that’s not even getting into the fact that the victims are children, and that we treat children’s participation in public sphere very differently.

I do have a problem “of people torturing others who they then kill and selling those videos”. Yes, I know, dead people have “no rights”, but their heirs do, and for anyone to make a profit from someone’s death, while not illegal, is pretty unethical behavior. Just as I wouldn’t want my being raped publicized in that way, neither would I want my death. I think a line is crossed when that happens.

202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 4:53:33am

re: #201 Justanotherhuman

I do have a problem “of people torturing others who they then kill and selling those videos”. Yes, I know, dead people have “no rights”, but their heirs do, and for anyone to make a profit from someone’s death, while not illegal, is pretty unethical behavior. Just as I wouldn’t want my being raped publicized in that way, neither would I want my death. I think a line is crossed when that happens.

You may have a problem with it, but it’s an incredibly rare phenomenon, so we as a society don’t have a problem of it happening.

The problem with not having a death ‘publicized in any way’ is that it also makes it really easy to hide murders and the conditions in which they’re taking place. I agree it can be unseemly, but a sober documentary on lynching which uses photos of lynchings is obviously very different from Stormfront gleefully putting up the same pictures.

203 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:00:16am

Stay classy, Ann.

204 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:00:47am

re: #199 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Radel hasn’t gone bonkers like Ford. Plus he’s from southern Florida, where powder cocaine has been an issue since the 1980’s.

Drug smugglers are quite happy to supply politicians, since they can use the resulting contact to gain favors and insight into government action against them.

205 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:02:20am

re: #202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You may have a problem with it, but it’s an incredibly rare phenomenon, so we as a society don’t have a problem of it happening.

The problem with not having a death ‘publicized in any way’ is that it also makes it really easy to hide murders and the conditions in which they’re taking place. I agree it can be unseemly, but a sober documentary on lynching which uses photos of lynchings is obviously very different from Stormfront gleefully putting up the same pictures.

It’s not just Stormfront, it’s those who view crime scene photos for the titillation if provides as well. Voyeuristic, even. Such photos are viewed regularly by LE, attorneys, juries, etc. as a case wends itself through the legal system.

A responsible person would take those photos to the appropriate authorities and report the crime, not just splash it all over the internet.

I think an important question does comes up additionally: In viewing such material, do we actually become more informed or just desensitized?

206 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:09:25am

re: #205 Justanotherhuman

It’s not just Stormfront, it’s those who view crime scene photos for the titillation if provides as well. Voyeuristic, even. Such photos are viewed regularly by LE, attorneys, juries, etc. as a case wends itself through the legal system.

You start off here talking about titillation, but then wind up talking about legitimate law enforcement viewing, so I’m kind of lost as to the point of this bit.

A responsible person would take those photos to the appropriate authorities and report the crime, not just splash it all over the internet.

The photos of murders (and especially of lynchings) are normally taking place after the crime has been reported.

I think an important question does comes up additionally: In viewing such material, do we actually become more informed or just desensitized?

This is a very difficult question to answer. But I’m unclear on what you’re actually proposing: That news outlets should refuse to carry pictures, for example, of crime scene photos shown in court? I personally think if more people had seen the pictures of Trayvon Martin dead, and seen fewer pictures of bloodied Zimmerman, it would have engendered more sympathy for Trayvon. But I can’t prove this and I can’t think of any sociological test for this that isn’t massively unethical.

207 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:11:49am

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

Radel was just buying his drugs from a street dealer(who in this case was saving his own ass via participating in a sting), he wasn’t getting freebies from a cartel in exchange for anything. As for the bonkers part, he just isn’t as obnoxious as Ford(who the hell is?). I’d ask his wife if he’s bonkers, she might have a different opinion. You can’t hide shit like that from the people you live with for very long, your behavior changes and not for the best either.

What got him in trouble is hubris. Newly elected to congress as a conservative in a conservative place and part of a conservative majority, he thought he was bulletproof and a special little snowflake. Coke does that to people, and overall, addicts of any kind are generally incredibly selfish people. Would your assessment of him be the same if he was a Democrat? Remember, this same guy voted to approve money to drug test food stamp recipients when it’s already been proven in Florida that less than 2 percent of people getting assistance test positive for drugs. It costs more to test them (at the Governor’s Wife’s clinics, BTW) than it saves the taxpayers in those food stamps. Maybe we should be testing elected officials at regular intervals instead.

208 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:12:36am

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

Radel hasn’t gone bonkers like Ford. Plus he’s from southern Florida, where powder cocaine has been an issue since the 1980’s.

Drug smugglers are quite happy to supply politicians, since they can use the resulting contact to gain favors and insight into government action against them.

This isn’t Miami Vice - it’s recreational usage. His being from Florida makes for a convenient narrative, but he was busted in DC. How does a sitting congressman get busted doing cocaine? By going to a dealer.

WASHINGTON — Rep. Trey Radel, R-Fla., was caught buying drugs as part of a federal investigation into a Washington, D.C., drug ring last month and is being charged with cocaine possession, according to a senior Drug Enforcement Administration official.

The official, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the case, said several federal agencies working as part of a task force arrested a dealer who told them one of his cocaine customers was a congressman. The dealer, working with federal agents, set up a buy on Oct. 29, and Radel, a freshman congressman first elected last year, purchased the cocaine, the official said.

usatoday.com

209 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:13:08am

I have some very mixed feelings about this, in spite of the heinous nature of his crimes: I’m against the death penalty, and Franklin’s mental health issues, something this country needs to get a handle on, and quickly.

Missouri executes serial killer Franklin

bigstory.ap.org

Justice should never be based on the biblical exhortation of “an eye for an eye”.

210 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:17:29am

re: #207 A Mom Anon

Well said. What’s amazing is he thinks he can just blame booze and all will be forgiven. I’m looking forward to the next GOP rising star with his nose in a bindle. What excuse will he use?

211 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:17:35am

re: #209 Justanotherhuman
I’ve said this before, I think we’ve ignored mental health issues for so long in this country that I’m not sure we have enough qualified professionals to help everyone who needs it at this point. Not that we shouldn’t be pulling out the stops to do everything possible, but we need more people in the field and more facilities that provide EXCELLENT care so we don’t end up warehousing people in crappy facilities like we used to do. There should be some kind of incentive to get people into college to get those degrees, everything from psych nurses to psychiatrists and all points in between and beyond. There are way too many people in need of help who aren’t getting it. Access and affordability are also an issue, not to mention the stigma, especially for men.

212 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:20:48am

re: #211 A Mom Anon

Another problem is that we lack comprehensive solutions for many mental health problems because they’re sociological problems.

Someone who is working a dead-end job and stressed out all the time and develops depression and low self-esteem? The main problem he has is that he’s in a society that prizes wealth above almost everything else and he’s at the bottom of that society, and he knows it, and so he’s going to feel stressed out and depressed. Maybe he’s the rare person that can become zen and philosophical about it, but many people have mental health issues stemming directly from their correct knowledge of their place in society.

Baldwin wrote a lot about this, about seeing black people actually go crazy trying to navigate the system of entrenched white power and carve out decent lives for themselves.

Everyone should read more Baldwin.

213 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:22:30am

re: #206 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I was trying to differentiate between “desire to see” and “need to see” in that comparison, and even if after the fact, the perp would have hopefully been filmed as well. If not, the photo could still be used as evidence of a crime in an investigation.

214 ericblair  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:22:58am

re: #203 Vicious Babushka

Stay classy, Ann.

[Embedded content]

If she stayed classy, she’d be out of a job.

215 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:23:28am

re: #209 Justanotherhuman

I have some very mixed feelings about this, in spite of the heinous nature of his crimes: I’m against the death penalty, and Franklin’s mental health issues, something this country needs to get a handle on, and quickly.

Missouri executes serial killer Franklin

bigstory.ap.org

Justice should never be based on the biblical exhortation of “an eye for an eye”.

I have no mixed feelings about this one: That bastard needed killing. End Story.

216 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:24:23am

re: #213 Justanotherhuman

I was trying to differentiate between “desire to see” and “need to see” in that comparison, and even if after the fact, the perp would have hopefully been filmed as well. If not, the photo could still be used as evidence of a crime in an investigation.

Oh, I totally agree that the sickos who go to ogrish and stuff are assholes. I’m just saying that it is also true that seeing the victims of murders can also engage sympathy for them.

217 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:25:18am

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

I have no mixed feelings about this one: That bastard needed killing. End Story.

The systemic problems of the death penalty aren’t ever going to go away, and we can’t run our legal system on evaluations of how much of a bastard someone is and how they ‘need killing’. That’s not a legal or ethical principle.

218 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:26:01am

re: #208 darthstar

This isn’t Miami Vice - it’s recreational usage. His being from Florida makes for a convenient narrative, but he was busted in DC. How does a sitting congressman get busted doing cocaine? By going to a dealer.

usatoday.com

Sorry. I’d seen the blurb about his being charged, but I didn’t know all the details.

219 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:26:31am

re: #214 ericblair

If she stayed classy, she’d be out of a job.

It’s hard for her to “stay classy” if she has never even been “classy.”

220 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:28:18am

re: #219 Vicious Babushka

It’s hard for her to “stay classy” if she has never even been “classy.”

I was about to say heh. I can’t think of a single moment in the years that Ann Coulter has been in the public eye that she’s been classy. Some people just live off of hate. Coulter is one of them. I actually find it sad.

221 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:30:24am

re: #212 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut
I agree, I spent the early part of my adult life homeless at times and poor and developed pretty devastating depression as a result. I cannot take meds, the side effects are worse than the depression, they made me suicidal. So, I learned to do other things to cope and I still struggle sometimes. I am an exception though, not the rule. I was lucky I was able to find my way out of the worst of it. But, the fear of being that poor and becoming homeless has never gone away, especially since my husband has been through so many job losses since 08 and I am finding I am basically unemployable. I wake up sometimes scared out of my mind in the middle of the night, over money. It sucks.

So in addition to more help for mental illness, maybe we need to include more support in poor and struggling areas via those clinics and other outlets. I don’t know how we get there in the current political climate that hates the poor and mentally ill, but things won’t get better the way we’re currently approaching the issue.

222 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:31:16am

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

I have no mixed feelings about this one: That bastard needed killing. End Story.

As much as I think Larry Flynt exploits women, he and I are in agreement on the death penalty. He was one of Franklin’s victims.

223 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:35:32am

Now that he’s dead, I won’t shed any tears for Franklin, but I do have serious problems with the death penalty, especially how it’s used in some states.

Life in prison is death penalty enough.

224 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:35:41am

Comment number 1 smacked me in the head.

AFAIK, Google never promised to give users links to everything on the Internet. Child porn may be in fact on the Internet, but there should be no expectation that Google is at all required to allow users to search for it, given that child porn is illegal in every jurisdiction. Google could be charged with aiding and abetting a crime, were Google to locate a child porn site or server, and then fail to report it to authorities. Or, conversely, Google could be named in a legal case involving some end user who had used the search engine to find and then download child porn onto his computer.

The idea that child porn is just “information” yearning to be free makes no sense. We live in a free country, yet there are laws that restrict our freedom to ensure a safe and manageable society. DaveBarnes’ credit card and bank account numbers are also information. Maybe they are also yearning to be free. I need a new camera to replace my now-dead Nikon D60. Is it then OK for to me search for his financial information, so I can use his money to buy a camera for me? And do we want Google to provide me a means to get that information? Surely not, since using someone’s else money to buy something for my own use is called theft, and there are laws against theft. If i did obtain DaveBarnes’ financial records, I would be committing a crime whether I used that information or not. Similarly, just viewing child porn on one’s computer screen is a crime.

I suspect DaveBarnes and the other defenders of freely searchable child porn would be singing a different aria if it were their own kids in the images.

225 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:36:30am
226 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:36:54am

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

I have no mixed feelings about this one: That bastard needed killing. End Story.

The death penalty is never justice. It is only revenge that is supposed to be out of human hands if we claim to be followers of Christ.

Not to mention that if we had simply locked him up and fed him three meals a day for 50 years it would still cost far less than executing him did while accomplishing the same goal of keeping the world safe from him.

227 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:37:49am

re: #223 darthstar

Now that he’s dead, I won’t shed any tears for Franklin, but I do have serious problems with the death penalty, especially how it’s used in some states.

Life in prison is death penalty enough.

Yes, and to add to that I do have a problem with it disproportionately being used on racial minorities. I do think life in prison is punishment enough.

228 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:39:11am

re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

The death penalty is never justice. It is only revenge that is supposed to be out of human hands if we claim to be followers of Christ.

Not to mention that if we had simply locked him up and fed him three meals a day for 50 years it would still cost far less than executing him did while accomplishing the same goal of keeping the world safe from him.

Let’s admit it. The DP is about revenge. And god knows, we’d have one of those fantasies if one of our loved ones got killed by someone like Franklin but at the same time, there has to be justice and I do think the US needs to join the rest of the Western world in not having the DP.

229 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:42:35am

re: #225 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Well, obviously, he’s not a total pauper, either. Lying bastard.

Haha, he listed $199 as cash he had on hand, but he has no job? No source of income? I know that’s not a lot of money these days, but if he’s unemployed and homeless where did it come from? He’s getting money from somewhere, and I don’t mean his family. I wouldn’t doubt at all that he has money stashed away somewhere in another name. There is still an online fundraising site for him as well, for all the suckers out there, but I think that’s handled by someone else.

230 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:44:50am

re: #228 HappyWarrior

We might see less violence in this country if our prison system wasn’t only about punishment. There is little if any focus on rehabilitation, or again, mental health care. I realize some people just cannot be reached, and for those people life in a secure facility with proper care is the best alternative to the DP. These things can be accomplished without “coddling” criminals too. Other countries have figured this out to some degree, but overall, it doesn’t seem to occur to people in most countries that most people in prison will eventually get out someday. It’s an investment in our own security to think about and act on those things.

231 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:45:13am

re: #200 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Weegee supposedly got his nickname from his superhuman ability to be at the scene of a crime almost before the cops arrived, as if he had used a Ouija board to foretell the future. (Actually, he had a police radio in his car.) His real name was Usher Felig and he freelanced his photos to almost all of New York City’s newspapers. He used a standard Speed Graphic 4x5 camera and developed his film in the back of his car, enabling him to scoop most of the city’s other photogs.

The International Center for Photography has a collection of his photos here museum.icp.org

Imagine what he could have done with a digital SLR today.

232 ericblair  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:45:16am

re: #224 wheat-dogghazi

Comment number 1 smacked me in the head.

AFAIK, Google never promised to give users links to everything on the Internet.

It’s a dudebro thing. Government should go away, and then private companies will do whatever you as some random dudebro want them to do because FREEMARKET. When said companies don’t, because it doesn’t make money or causes other problems or they just don’t want to, then it must be CONSPIRACY!

233 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:46:37am

re: #230 A Mom Anon

We might see less violence in this country if our prison system wasn’t only about punishment. There is little if any focus on rehabilitation, or again, mental health care. I realize some people just cannot be reached, and for those people life in a secure facility with proper care is the best alternative to the DP. These things can be accomplished without “coddling” criminals too. Other countries have figured this out to some degree, but overall, it doesn’t seem to occur to people in most countries that most people in prison will eventually get out someday. It’s an investment in our own security to think about and act on those things.

Yeah, you’ll get no argument me from there. And I agree strongly about mental care. It’s been discussed before but part of the problem with the mental health system is the stigma that exists. No one wants to admit that they or their child may have some mental issues. I know that first hand dealing with anxiety.

234 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:46:59am

re: #231 wheat-dogghazi

I saw the show that they had here in NYC of his stuff. It’s really interesting how often he focuses on the faces of the crowd, and how scarily delighted so many in the crowds are. But he captures the pain of murder in those shots, too.

235 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:47:21am

re: #232 ericblair

It’s a dudebro thing. Government should go away, and then private companies will do whatever you as some random dudebro want them to do because FREEMARKET. When said companies don’t, because it doesn’t make money or causes other problems or they just don’t want to, then it must be CONSPIRACY!

Oh, you just explained the privileged white boy mentality to a “t”. : )

236 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:48:49am

re: #232 ericblair

It’s a dudebro thing. Government should go away, and then private companies will do whatever you as some random dudebro want them to do because FREEMARKET. When said companies don’t, because it doesn’t make money or causes other problems or they just don’t want to, then it must be CONSPIRACY!

I read that post and knew at once it had been written by a dudebro.

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

Hey dudebro, are you you stoned or just stupid?

237 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:49:02am

re: #234 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I saw the show that they had here in NYC of his stuff. It’s really interesting how often he focuses on the faces of the crowd, and how scarily delighted so many in the crowds are. But he captures the pain of murder in those shots, too.

That’s the thing that sets him apart from other crime photographers. He was a wizard at catching the emotions involved in crimes.

238 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:49:25am
239 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:53:21am

re: #238 darthstar

[Embedded content]

But let’s hear more about Obama insulted Christians by not using God when he recited the Gettysburg Address. Derp.

240 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:55:32am

re: #231 wheat-dogghazi

Weegee supposedly got his nickname from his superhuman ability to be at the scene of a crime almost before the cops arrived, as if he had used a Ouija board to foretell the future. (Actually, he had a police radio in his car.) His real name was Usher Felig and he freelanced his photos to almost all of New York City’s newspapers. He used a standard Speed Graphic 4x5 camera and developed his film in the back of his car, enabling him to scoop most of the city’s other photogs.

The International Center for Photography has a collection of his photos here museum.icp.org

Imagine what he could have done with a digital SLR today.

He wouldn’t do as well comparatively today. Felig was a very good photographer, and he took great pains to ensure he’d be able to get his photos to the newspapers first. Today, things like smart phones and social networking make it easier for a less driven photographer to get info fast and digital photography means no more need to develop film.

Major tech evolutions improve the capabilities of the less capable more than they improve the capabilities of people who are true ‘rock stars’ at their professions. Sometimes new tech actually costs the rock star her/his job, because management decides that they can now get by with a less skilled and lower paid employee.

241 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:56:18am

re: #233 HappyWarrior
Yeah, I know, I only recently told my husband about my past, shame and feeling weak and like a freak are powerful things.

Since our sense of self worth is often tied to an occupation, I have found it especially hard to accept that my 20 yrs as a full time parent mean literally nothing to potential employers. No references except personal ones and no one cares about that. I’m still struggling with what I should do now, I’m almost 54 yrs old. I’d love to go to college, but there’s no money for it, and by the time I got out of school I’d be pushing 60. Who the hell would hire me? I thought of starting a business, but without seed money, that’s not going to go far. It’s triggered depression and at this time of year especially (did I mention I hate the holidays? GAH) no one wants to hear that stuff. I recently confessed my hatred of this time of year to a dear friend and she was STUNNED that I could feel like that. It’s not like there’s no reason and I’m Scrooge, I have concrete reasons why. But you can’t say it aloud or people run like crazy and stop having much to do with you.

242 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:58:52am

Alright lizards, I am off to walk the doggie and get some sun on my face while the getting is good. Have a great day, BBL.

243 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 5:59:16am

Take that, Republicans. And your little dog, Ted Cruz, as well.

US retail sales rise solid 0.4 percent in October

WASHINGTON (AP) — Consumers shrugged off the 16-day partial government shutdown and spent more on autos, clothing and furniture in October, boosting U.S. retail sales by the most in four months.

“Retail sales rose 0.4 percent, up from a flat reading in September, the Commerce Department said Wednesday. Sales were slightly held back by a steep drop in gas prices. Excluding sales at gas stations, retail spending rose an even stronger 0.5 percent.

(snip)

“The retail sales gain indicates that consumers stepped up spending at the start of the October-December quarter. Their spending accounts for 70 percent of economic activity.”

hosted.ap.org

244 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:05:00am

re: #243 Justanotherhuman

Take what? if anything, the fact that the economy shrugged off the shutdown helps the Republican Party. If the shutdown wasn’t seriously damaging, then the Democrats’ ability to use it against the GOP is going to be drastically reduced.

245 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:06:45am

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

Take what? if anything, the fact that the economy shrugged off the shutdown helps the Republican Party. If the shutdown wasn’t seriously damaging, then the Democrats’ ability to use it against the GOP is going to be drastically reduced.

This is only if you assume that GOP supporters are really stupid and don’t understand that the shutdown can still have hurt the economy severely: that we’d be doing a lot better if the GOP hadn’t caused such an enormous, stupid, pointless, power-grabbing, debacle.

Is your contention that GOP supporters are that dumb?

246 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:07:21am

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

Take what? if anything, the fact that the economy shrugged off the shutdown helps the Republican Party. If the shutdown wasn’t seriously damaging, then the Democrats’ ability to use it against the GOP is going to be drastically reduced.

OR the little bit about the shutdown taking people out of work. That was the problem with the shutdown. Your party can’t accuse the president of not doing enough on jobs and then throw a tantrum because of ACA and shutdown the government over it.

247 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:08:13am

re: #245 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

This is only if you assume that GOP supporters are really stupid and don’t understand that the shutdown can still have hurt the economy severely: that we’d be doing a lot better if the GOP hadn’t caused such an enormous, stupid, pointless, power-grabbing, debacle.

Is your contention that GOP supporters are that dumb?

Yes, this.

248 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:09:45am

Speaking of jobs, I like my new part-time gig at DOI. I thought it was going to be a PITA having to wake up at 5:30 every morning but I like it. Really hoping/thinking this could lead to full time work somewhere.

249 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:10:16am

Dogwalk—BBL.re: #237 wheat-dogghazi

That’s the thing that sets him apart from other crime photographers. He was a wizard at catching the emotions involved in crimes.

He also did a small book of photo abstractions, called Weegee’s Creative Photography. Lots of shots through distorted glass, kaleidoscopes, etc back when it was probably innovative. My copy is 1964, but some of the stuff looks much earlier.

250 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:11:46am

re: #241 A Mom Anon

Yeah, I know, I only recently told my husband about my past, shame and feeling weak and like a freak are powerful things.

Since our sense of self worth is often tied to an occupation, I have found it especially hard to accept that my 20 yrs as a full time parent mean literally nothing to potential employers. No references except personal ones and no one cares about that. I’m still struggling with what I should do now, I’m almost 54 yrs old. I’d love to go to college, but there’s no money for it, and by the time I got out of school I’d be pushing 60. Who the hell would hire me? I thought of starting a business, but without seed money, that’s not going to go far. It’s triggered depression and at this time of year especially (did I mention I hate the holidays? GAH) no one wants to hear that stuff. I recently confessed my hatred of this time of year to a dear friend and she was STUNNED that I could feel like that. It’s not like there’s no reason and I’m Scrooge, I have concrete reasons why. But you can’t say it aloud or people run like crazy and stop having much to do with you.

I went through a very similar thing in my 50s, when I lost a well-paying job, was under- and unemployed after that, my house was foreclosed on, and I had to move here to the “boondocks”, into my son’s house; in fact, I had a “nervous breakdown” during that period. I share a similar story to yours in that I was raised very poor and raised 2 kids by myself with virtually no education except a couple of yrs of comm college in my 30s.

But getting out of the pressure cooker I was in, as a single female person, and scaling down everything, including jobs, was an eye opener and mental health cleansing in my case. I was on so many medications before I moved here I was a zombie and incapable of making decisions; I got off all of them and have never looked back. Learning to simply go with what I have and not “forecasting” the future was a huge step.

251 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:21:16am

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

Take what? if anything, the fact that the economy shrugged off the shutdown helps the Republican Party. If the shutdown wasn’t seriously damaging, then the Democrats’ ability to use it against the GOP is going to be drastically reduced.

As usual, Pres Obama was playing chess while the Rs were playing the fool.

You just don’t get it, do you?

The Rs wanted political theater and they got it. That short period of time had no direct effect on the economy at all and they showed their asses, and their incompetence and hatred for this President, for all the world to see.

252 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:24:54am

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

Take what? if anything, the fact that the economy shrugged off the shutdown helps the Republican Party. If the shutdown wasn’t seriously damaging, then the Democrats’ ability to use it against the GOP is going to be drastically reduced.

Shutdowns are good! We should have another one in January! That’ll really help the GOP take back the Senate and keep the House! I’m with you all the way, DF! Maybe if the GOP shuts down the government in January President Obama will cancel his silly health care law once and for all. If that doesn’t work, Boehner can hold his breath until he’s blue in the face, though that’s a pretty long journey across the color spectrum for him.

253 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:26:57am

re: #247 HappyWarrior

Yes, this.

That may not be his intent, but he did illustrate it beautifully.

254 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:28:26am

re: #253 darthstar

That may not be his intent, but he did illustrate it beautifully.

Yeah he did.

255 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:31:03am
256 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:31:38am

re: #245 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

This is only if you assume that GOP supporters are really stupid and don’t understand that the shutdown can still have hurt the economy severely: that we’d be doing a lot better if the GOP hadn’t caused such an enormous, stupid, pointless, power-grabbing, debacle.

Is your contention that GOP supporters are that dumb?

It’s my contention that the public is that gullible, so yes.

257 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:34:03am

re: #255 darthstar


I’ve yet to see a satisfactory answer to this (or even see the question asked). He was arrested on the 29th of October, which means that someone, somewhere, in a media outlet fell asleep on the job for the easiest political news story - an arrest report. This wasn’t investigative journalism uncovering corruption or malfeasance, but someone who didn’t bother to check who was coming in and out of a police station in handcuffs.

258 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:34:11am

re: #255 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I’d feel bad for him if he wasn’t such a hypocritical douche.

259 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:34:16am

Everyone can agree that the abuse of children is an abhorrent act that cannot be supported by any reasonable person, and must be stopped.

But I think folks should not be so gung-ho about the implementation of measures to control what kinds of information you have access to over the internet. CP is a crime and all involved should be prosecuted to the fullest, maximum extent allowed by the law. But a search company that can decide to hide one class of information from you can decide to hide other classes of information from you.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people that came up with the ideas and infrastructure for the internet did not forsee it being used as a vector to spread and support crime. The people that came up with the ideas and infrastructure for censoring the internet did not forsee it being used as a method to suppress non-criminal information.

260 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:37:00am

re: #256 Dark_Falcon

It’s my contention that the public is >that gullible, so yes.

No, it’s more than that, you’re contending specifically that the people supporting the GOP are going to be that stupid. You’re actually making the argument that more ill-informed, economics-ignorant people support the GOP.

261 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:37:09am

re: #258 HappyWarrior

I’d feel bad for him if he wasn’t such a hypocritical douche.

Here’s hoping he gets the largest possible sentence. Unfortunately, we no longer put people in stocks in the town square, but that’s what SHOULD happen.

262 Political Atheist  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:37:18am

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

The economy shrugged it off because really cheap gas is acting s a huge stimulus, we still have QE and the shutdown was not long lasting. There really is no need for further cuts. No need to fight over something we don’t need. No more self inflicted wounds, please,

Let me share a meeting I had yesterday. The Platinum Guild promotes that metal for jewelry. My employer and I work very closely with the Guild, so we get the reports. The economy really is improving. Albeit took too long and too many are still severely under employed. The American jewelry mfg sector is on the mend and on the move. 3d printing of gold itself. Silver. Casting equipment that is smaller simpler and cheaper to make a couple platinum or palladium rings at a time. The middle class, not just the 1%ers are buying precious metals instead of exotics like tungsten.

Sorry if I digress, but lets stop kicking our own asses. Some of us are barely young enough to come back from 5 hard years.

263 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:37:35am
264 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:37:40am

re: #259 GunstarGreen

But a search company that can decide to hide one class of information from you can decide to hide other classes of information from you.

Are you literally saying Google should be forced to include child porn in their searches, or what?

265 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:38:47am

re: #261 GunstarGreen

Here’s hoping he gets the largest possible sentence. Unfortunately, we no longer put people in stocks in the town square, but that’s what SHOULD happen.

I’m fine with his political career ending and him hopefully being replaced by someone who isn’t a douche. I don’t care about him doing crack. I do care about him doing crack and then saying we should test welfare recipients for drugs.

266 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:39:59am

re: #264 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Are you literally saying Google should be forced to include child porn in their searches, or what?

That is not at all what I said, and you know it. You’re better than that, Obdicut.

267 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:41:30am

re: #250 Justanotherhuman

I went through a very similar thing in my 50s, when I lost a well-paying job, was under- and unemployed after that, my house was foreclosed on, and I had to move here to the “boondocks”, into my son’s house; in fact, I had a “nervous breakdown” during that period. I share a similar story to yours in that I was raised very poor and raised 2 kids by myself with virtually no education except a couple of yrs of comm college in my 30s.

But getting out of the pressure cooker I was in, as a single female person, and scaling down everything, including jobs, was an eye opener and mental health cleansing in my case. I was on so many medications before I moved here I was a zombie and incapable of making decisions; I got off all of them and have never looked back. Learning to simply go with what I have and not “forecasting” the future was a huge step.

Hmm, do either of you have any pointers towards things that can help with the mental side of these sorts of issues?

A couple of friends and I have noticed that another friend’s wife is frequently now posting religious links and also a few screeds about her education and degree having meant nothing. Not how she normally behaves, but she has been under- and/or un- employed for a few years now. And I know this has strained things in her relationship with her husband and other areas since money is pretty tight with them (5-year old daughter, flooded out by Sandy, etc.)

I also have to work out how to broach the issue in a polite way.

268 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:42:12am

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

He wouldn’t do as well comparatively today. Felig was a very good photographer, and he took great pains to ensure he’d be able to get his photos to the newspapers first. Today, things like smart phones and social networking make it easier for a less driven photographer to get info fast and digital photography means no more need to develop film.

Major tech evolutions improve the capabilities of the less capable more than they improve the capabilities of people who are true ‘rock stars’ at their professions. Sometimes new tech actually costs the rock star her/his job, because management decides that they can now get by with a less skilled and lower paid employee.

I’m not sure about that, having worked in newspapers for a time. Photo editors are curmudgeonly beasts and they don’t want just any old shit in their publication. A passable journalistic photo catches the moment. An excellent one does that, too, but with style. Maybe the Internet and digital cameras allow many more people to capture dramatic moments, but they don’t also make the same people into expert photographers. News media use amateur video and photos when there are no professional quality items available. Given the choice, most editors would rather run the pro stuff.

Putting it another way, Weegee would have more competition, but he’d probably still sell photos.

269 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:42:16am

Damn… it starts… I knew it… they really are out to get … me:

Notification issued on 11/20/13 at 8:48 AM. NYPD reports there will be a black helicopter flying at low altitude while filming in the Lower Manhattan area today.

The sender provided the following contact information.
Sender’s Name: Notify NYC
Sender’s Email: notifynyc@oem.nyc.gov
Sender’s Contact Phone: [redacted]

270 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:42:40am
271 darthstar  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:43:42am
272 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:44:40am

re: #270 darthstar

[Embedded content]

They really want this to be Obama’s Watergate desperately don’t they?

273 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:45:04am

re: #266 GunstarGreen

That is not at all what I said, and you know it. You’re better than that, Obdicut.

No, I don’t know it, which is why I asked. Accusing me of dishonesty isn’t going to get you anywhere.

You said:

But a search company that can decide to hide one class of information from you can decide to hide other classes of information from you.

You’re saying this is problematic, that they can decide to hide information. You say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and you said:

The people that came up with the ideas and infrastructure for censoring the internet did not forsee it being used as a method to suppress non-criminal information.

You never explicitly stated what you wanted to happen, which is why I asked. Do you think that Google’s power to hide information (which, again, is actually part of their business model) is something that shouldn’t exist? That they shouldn’t have that power? Or that they should?

Because if you’re okay with them having that power, then I can’t really understand your post. Maybe you can explain further, and clarify your position, because right now it seems to be saying that ‘censorship’ of this sort is a road to hell.

274 Political Atheist  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:45:35am

re: #259 GunstarGreen

I get the slippery slope. See my anti P.A. Pages. But the ISP’s must have the ability and IMO do have the moral responsibility to draw the line at clearly illegal acts. Child porn is an easy one.

275 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:45:58am

re: #259 GunstarGreen

“But a search company that can decide to hide one class of information from you can decide to hide other classes of information from you.”

Yes, a company can do that. Conversely, a company is not allowed to violate the law, either, no more than an individual is allowed to do.

276 Bulworth  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:46:07am

re: #271 darthstar

Left our troops to diiiieeeeeeee

277 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:47:31am

re: #276 Bulworth

Left our troops to diiiieeeeeeee

I have it on good authority that Obama told General Meade not to chase the Confederates back into Virginia.

278 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:51:17am

‘Morning, Lizards.

A couple of things:

Mario Batali is pretty awesome: Mario Batali deftly fends off Twitter morons after raising money for Texas pro-choice charity

Also, Cat Heaven Island!

I hope everyone is having a good morning.

279 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:51:38am

re: #272 HappyWarrior

They really want this to be Obama’s Watergate desperately don’t they?

No, they just want to scream “BENGHAZI!!1” in order to sell commercial air time and get web hits.

280 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:52:35am

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

No, they just want to scream “BENGHAZI!!1” in order to sell commercial air time and get web hits.

Ture enough.

281 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:53:16am

re: #270 darthstar

Fox’s “New” Benghazi Photos Reveal Nothing New

Fox News parroting Judicial Watch? The hell you say!
/

282 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:54:30am

Wow, I wish we really did have all the honor students those auto bumper stickers say we have.

283 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:54:43am

re: #280 HappyWarrior

True enough.

PIYF

284 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:55:00am

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

PIYF

Yeah no caffeine yet today. Thanks.

285 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:57:00am

re: #267 Feline Fearless Leader

Hmm, do either of you have any pointers towards things that can help with the mental side of these sorts of issues?

A couple of friends and I have noticed that another friend’s wife is frequently now posting religious links and also a few screeds about her education and degree having meant nothing. Not how she normally behaves, but she has been under- and/or un- employed for a few years now. And I know this has strained things in her relationship with her husband and other areas since money is pretty tight with them (5-year old daughter, flooded out by Sandy, etc.)

I also have to work out how to broach the issue in a polite way.

I’m not if this will help, but from my own personal experience, we can get in a situation where we feel boxed in and there seems to be no way out. In fact, there is, but we’re so caught up in our feelings and anguish that we don’t see it. To cite an overused phrase, we can’t think outside of the box. In my case, I chucked almost everything I had done up to that point, left a comfortable but overtaxing teaching job, and moved to China to teach English. It was a decision that made little sense at the time, especially financially, but it’s turned out to be one of the best decisions of my life. Maybe your friend’s wife needs to try something radically different from what she’s done before. Volunteer work sometimes leads toward paying jobs, for example. Just throw out some ideas and maybe she’ll bite.

286 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:58:33am

re: #273 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I am advising caution against going down a road where a company that is not accountable to the people can control what sorts of information the people have access to. Maybe we’ve already started down that road, maybe we’re at a point where we can decide to go another way.

It’s a worthy and noble goal, to protect people from harm. But that’s how the Patriot Act came about, isn’t it? Undoubtedly, such controls would curb some amount of the child abuse trade. I don’t think anyone has anything better than a guess as to how much. That evil existed long before the internet, and it will exist even after such controls are implemented. Is that a good enough reason to outright say “No, let’s no do this”? Perhaps not. I’m saying that it’s worth more consideration than an automatic thumbs-up simply based on the intended effects.

The first post in this thread could have been stated better, and I’ve attempted to do so. When that poster said “No matter how disgusting”, I assume that to mean that they also find the abuse of children abhorrent, and something that should be stopped — but perhaps not at the expense of giving companies the power to restrict our access to information on a whim. Again, poorly worded, but the sentiment was there.

That poster was then accused of “supporting” CP. That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about. “With us or against us” mentality, “Either you support these restrictions, or you support the abuse of children”. I get it, people want to protect children, and they SHOULD want to protect children.

But is the price worth it? Maybe that’s worth a bit more examination.

287 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:02:00am

Remember the basketball game the President attended over the weekend? It turns out that the real Obama story from that game was the sweater his daughter Sasha was wearing:

A sold-out unicorn motif sweater worn by Sasha Obama has sparked a demand for its manufacturer to reissue it.

The 12-year-old first daughter wore the $18 unicorn design by ASOS to a college basketball game in College Park, Maryland on Sunday.

Since photos of the appearance were published, the online retailer has been slammed with requests from shoppers keen to replicate the youngster’s look.

Image: article-0-1979E38B00000578-12_634x451.jpg

288 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:04:19am

re: #287 Dark_Falcon

Remember the basketball game the President attended over the weekend? It turns out that the real Obama story from that game was the sweater his daughter Sasha was wearing:

Heh. How much of the demand is from My Little Pony fans?

289 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:05:50am

re: #286 GunstarGreen

For clarity, I’m quoting the post in question:

re: #1 DaveBarnes

Not a fan of restrictions on information.
Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

“Absolute freedom to publish” is a long way from what you were speaking about, GG, and it flies fully in the face of established jurisprudence.

290 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:09:52am

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

As I said, I think it was worded poorly. I have no way of knowing that person’s intentions for certain, and it’s very possible — even likely — that they were being more extreme than I am. I think it’s perfectly fine to disagree with the notion of “absolute freedom to publish” as a reckless and naive ideal.

But they were accused of “supporting” CP. And that accusation represents the kind of thinking that I find problematic.

291 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:12:42am

re: #286 GunstarGreen

I am advising caution against going down a road where a company that is not accountable to the people can control what sorts of information the people have access to. Maybe we’ve already started down that road, maybe we’re at a point where we can decide to go another way.

Again, Google’s business model is about controlling and manipulating search results. Please read what I already posted.


It’s a worthy and noble goal, to protect people from harm. But that’s how the Patriot Act came about, isn’t it? Undoubtedly, such controls would curb some amount of the child abuse trade. I don’t think anyone has anything better than a guess as to how much. That evil existed long before the internet, and it will exist even after such controls are implemented. Is that a good enough reason to outright say “No, let’s no do this”? Perhaps not. I’m saying that it’s worth more consideration than an automatic thumbs-up simply based on the intended effects.

The first post in this thread could have been stated better, and I’ve attempted to do so. When that poster said “No matter how disgusting”, I assume that to mean that they also find the abuse of children abhorrent, and something that should be stopped — but perhaps not at the expense of giving companies the power to restrict our access to information on a whim. Again, poorly worded, but the sentiment was there.

It’s not ‘our’ information.

But is the price worth it? Maybe that’s worth a bit more examination.

I haven’t actually seen you clearly state what you want the policy to be. Can you explain?

292 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:13:13am

I got this message from FB after reporting the militia group we talked about last night:

Thank you for taking the time to report something that you feel may violate our Community Standards. Reports like yours are an important part of making Facebook a safe and welcoming environment. We reviewed the group you reported for containing credible threat of violence and found it doesn’t violate our Community Standards.

I was not able to drill down to report the comment about assassinating the POTUS, it kept linking to the photo instead.

293 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:13:29am

re: #286 GunstarGreen

I am advising caution against going down a road where a company that is not accountable to the people can control what sorts of information the people have access to. Maybe we’ve already started down that road, maybe we’re at a point where we can decide to go another way.

Ultimately, Google is accountable only to its board and its stockholders. It also needs to work within legal limits. Companies have controlled what information the people can access for years. For example, the telephone company could not tell me an unlisted phone number, even if I had good reason to obtain it. A bank, likewise, is not going to share with Tom, Dick and Harry the account information of any of its customers. There is no reasonable requirement that Google should provide users links to child porn, given that CP is illegal.

You are arguing the “slippery slope” logical fallacy, by the way: If Google blocks child porn searches now, what will they block later? You might need to reconsider your argument.

294 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:16:17am

re: #245 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

This is only if you assume that GOP supporters are really stupid and don’t understand that the shutdown can still have hurt the economy severely: that we’d be doing a lot better if the GOP hadn’t caused such an enormous, stupid, pointless, power-grabbing, debacle.

Is your contention that GOP supporters are that dumb?

Government is bad, shutting it down was good.

That simple.

/

295 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:17:26am

re: #292 Vicious Babushka

I got this message from FB after reporting the militia group we talked about last night:

I was not able to drill down to report the comment about assassinating the POTUS, it kept linking to the photo instead.

Hopefully, the Secret Service has that asshole on their ‘to visit’ list today.

296 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:19:09am

re: #294 Sol Berdinowitz

Government is bad, shutting it down was good.

That simple.

/

Mixed with the “GOP uber alles” group where the espoused GOP policy really doesn’t matter, just that it is what the GOP is supporting.*

* - Will add the caveat that there is also a “Democrats uber alles” group in existence, but they don’t float to the fore as often since the Democrats are usually not pushing non-plans and really stupid (if not outright destructive) policies.

297 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:20:15am

BBL

298 GlutenFreeJesus  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:24:57am

Rep. Radel only gets a year probation? Seriously?

299 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:25:09am

re: #293 wheat-dogghazi

If the United States government has the power to imprison terrorists without proper trial or evidence or due process, who will they imprison next? I don’t know, maybe you should ask Brandon Mayfield. Sometimes the slope really is slippery, and you might want to consider some cleats before you step out onto it.

To Obdicut: I personally don’t believe that those controls should exist. Certainly they could use whatever system they were going to use to detect and censor, and instead use it to detect and report to the proper authorities. Find those bastards and prosecute them as hard as possible. But I don’t think that it’s a good thing for a company to have a button they can press that makes undesirable information suddenly disappear — not when ‘undesirable’ can be defined arbitrarily if they so wished.

Detection of illegal content, accurate and swift reporting of it to the necessary parties, and quick response by those parties to remove it at the source; I’m all for that. But installing a system to censor search results (yes, I am aware that some of this functionality already exists: I don’t think that it should) opens some very precarious doors. And it doesn’t even solve the problem, not really — just because something doesn’t show up in a Google search doesn’t mean it’s not accessible. It just means you need to know the address. Even if it’s not in the DNS, you can still get to it if you know the direct IP. How long and how hard have we been fighting the War on Drugs, yet anyone anywhere still knows where to get it if they really want it. The same principle applies here.

I think the effort would be better spent working on the source of the problem, rather than building systems to censor the information and hoping those systems are never misused.

300 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:26:09am

Gets one yr probation.

Fla’s Rep Radel admits cocaine possession

hosted.ap.org

“A Drug Enforcement Administration official said Radel bought cocaine from an undercover agent in a Washington, D.C., neighborhood on Oct. 29. Later that night, federal authorities went to his apartment and informed him that he would be facing criminal charges. The charges were made public Tuesday, and Radel expressed regret in a statement.”

301 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:27:32am

re: #298 GlutenFreeJesus

Rep. Radel only gets a year probation? Seriously?

Prison sentences for drug possession is for poors and non-whites only. Wealthy White Males get off easy.

302 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:27:43am

The more I read this batshit Twitter feed, I wonder if it is really a federal honeypot to monitor the crazies.

303 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:28:51am

re: #302 Vicious Babushka

The more I read this batshit Twitter feed, I wonder if it is really a federal honeypot to monitor the crazies.

[Embedded content]

No, I think there really are crazies like that out there. And the internet is their vehicle.

304 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:30:42am

re: #298 GlutenFreeJesus

Rep. Radel only gets a year probation? Seriously?

Not shocked at all. But this case does show you everything wrong with the drug war. If Radel were some poor kid, he’d be sentenced to jail time. Radel as an elected official gets probation. It stinks.

305 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:31:58am

re: #304 HappyWarrior

Not shocked at all. But this case does show you everything wrong with the drug war. If Radel were some poor kid, he’d be sentenced to jail time. Radel as an elected official gets probation. It stinks.

The Onion had this nailed years ago.

306 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:33:27am

re: #305 Sol Berdinowitz

The Onion had this nailed years ago.

Yep.

307 Stanley Sea  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:33:49am

Hump Daaaay!

308 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:34:34am

re: #304 HappyWarrior

And that, in a nutshell is what’s wrong with the drug sentencing and penal code in the country and why reform is so badly needed.

But it also points out that the Rep got benefits that many who are far less well-off and of the wrong skin color do not get - perp walked, arrested, and facing harsher sentencing than a mere slap on the wrist.

309 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:37:48am

This is just awesome.

slate.com

310 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:38:04am

re: #308 lawhawk

And that, in a nutshell is what’s wrong with the drug sentencing and penal code in the country and why reform is so badly needed.

But it also points out that the Rep got benefits that many who are far less well-off and of the wrong skin color do not get - perp walked, arrested, and facing harsher sentencing than a mere slap on the wrist.

Precisely. Joe Schmo gets what Radel did and it becomes near impossible for him to get good work. Radel, it would not shock me at all if he’s back in Congress this time next year as if nothing had happened. As I said, I don’t really care about Radel doing crack, I do care about him being a crack user and then voting to have drug tests done on welfare recipients.

311 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:40:20am

re: #241 A Mom Anon

Yeah, I know, I only recently told my husband about my past, shame and feeling weak and like a freak are powerful things.

Since our sense of self worth is often tied to an occupation, I have found it especially hard to accept that my 20 yrs as a full time parent mean literally nothing to potential employers. No references except personal ones and no one cares about that. I’m still struggling with what I should do now, I’m almost 54 yrs old. I’d love to go to college, but there’s no money for it, and by the time I got out of school I’d be pushing 60. Who the hell would hire me? I thought of starting a business, but without seed money, that’s not going to go far. It’s triggered depression and at this time of year especially (did I mention I hate the holidays? GAH) no one wants to hear that stuff. I recently confessed my hatred of this time of year to a dear friend and she was STUNNED that I could feel like that. It’s not like there’s no reason and I’m Scrooge, I have concrete reasons why. But you can’t say it aloud or people run like crazy and stop having much to do with you.

Have you ever thought about writing a book of your experience raising a special needs child? Your posts here are very passionate and you are a good writer.

312 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:40:57am

re: #299 GunstarGreen

If the United States government has the power to imprison terrorists without proper trial or evidence or due process, who will they imprison next? I don’t know, maybe you should ask Brandon Mayfield. Sometimes the slope really is slippery, and you might want to consider some cleats before you step out onto it.

Well, if they are terrorists, shouldn’t they be behind bars?

That’s a snarky remark, I know, because I am sure you meant to say “alleged terrorists” or “suspects.” The PATRIOT Act is now a decade old, and so far, Homeland Security and the local LEOs are not rounding up random people to be carted off to FEMA camps, or whatever. I am not defending the PATRIOT act, by the way, but fears of it opening the door to further encroachments on our civil liberties have so far been unfounded.

Mayfield was arrested erroneously, and released two weeks later. Your argument would have more merit if Mayfield were still behind bars. Police have arrested the wrong people, even before the PATRIOT Act became law. There seems to be a news report every month about some poor soul who got convicted for a crime he didn’t commit, then gets released after DNA evidence proves his innocence.

Sorry, your argument is not convincing, and I am a strong proponent of civil liberties and civil rights. You need to work up a better argument than the “slippery slope” one.

For example, how’s this for an effective argument? If we let men marry men, and women marry women, then what’s next? Men marrying goats? Women marrying their fathers? It’s a slippery slope, I tell ya!

313 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:41:03am

Well, some good news.

‘San Antonio 4’ speak out after prison release: ‘We’re actually innocent’

usnews.nbcnews.com

“Ramirez, Kristie Mayhugh, 40, and Cassandra Rivera, 38, along with Anna Vasquez, 38, were found guilty of molesting two girls in alleged assaults in 1994 that an expert has described as reminiscent of the Satanic ritual day care abuse cases of the 1980s and early 1990s. The women, known nationally as the “San Antonio 4,” always maintained their innocence. On Monday, after the district attorney agreed the group was entitled to a new trial on the grounds that recent scientific advances undermined testimony pivotal to their convictions, Ramirez, Mayhugh and Rivera were released on bond. Vasquez was paroled last year.

“I couldn’t sleep last night. I couldn’t believe I was here,” said Rivera, a mother of two who met her granddaughter for the first time Monday night. Rivera said she found herself staring at her 20-something son and daughter, who were just 9 and 8 years old when she first went to prison nearly 14 years ago. “I can’t believe they’re with me,” she said.”

I cannot imagine the pain they endured being away from their families and what they missed during the time they were incarcerated.

314 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:43:31am

re: #313 Justanotherhuman

Case in point. See my 312.

315 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:44:38am

HURR HURR POOR KIDS PARTY MAGIC SHOW GUY CAN’T EVEN CUT TEH BUNNY RABBITS IN HALF WITHOUT GUBMIT REGULASHUNZ!!!!!!111!!!!11!!!!

316 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:45:41am

HURR HURR

317 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:52:18am

re: #315 Vicious Babushka

If you read the article, Stossel makes it clear that it is politically connected businesses trying to restrict competition, not moonbat liberals, who are behind a lot of these regulations.

318 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:52:33am

I’d like to stay for the party, but I teach in the morning, and it’s almost midnight now. So, have fun discussing the merits of “all information, all the time, everywhere.”

319 Political Atheist  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:53:31am

re: #313 Justanotherhuman

Echoes of the McMartin preschool incident.

320 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 7:59:45am

Wow, Am I late to THIS party! Quick reactions:

1. Child porn BAD. Google blocking child porn in searches GOOD. “Information wants to be free, man”-type dudebros full of shit.

2. Congressman who wants drug testing for SNAP benefits being collared for coke IRONIC. Pity that the assholes won’t get the point.

3. Death Penalty largely BAD, as implemented. Dead murdering racist? No sympathy. Death Penalty should be reserved for the most heinous of crimes, because some people are so dangerous that even a small risk of their escaping, ever, is too much, but it shouldn’t be a circus, and it should be done with extreme regret.

4. We will never have a useful prison system that rehabilitates and guides recoverable criminals as long as so much of our population is all about retribution.

What else did I miss?

321 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:00:24am

re: #318 wheat-dogghazi

I’d like to stay for the party, but I teach in the morning, and it’s almost midnight now. So, have fun discussing the merits of “all information, all the time, everywhere.”

Unlimited Free Market, Unlimited Free Information, Unlimited Free Refills

That’s my platform, vote for me!!!

322 Bulworth  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:00:29am

re: #316 Vicious Babushka

Turn on the Zimmerman defense fund machines again!!!1

323 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:03:27am

re: #319 Political Atheist

Echoes of the McMartin preschool incident.

Jesus, that was a crazy time. From what I read about that, there was never any evidence beyond the testimony of young children, and some of the things they claimed were done were flatly impossible, like the ritualistic torture and bloody sacrifice of zoo animals.

And where do you go to buy back your good name if you’ve been falsely convicted?

324 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:06:19am

re: #316 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

At some point, the switch will be flipped, and Zimmerman will become a typical violent Latino whom they never REALLY supported, but they wanted to make sure he wasn’t railroaded, and Trayvon was still a thug.

Conservatives are really good at revsionism, even WRT their own individual history.

325 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:07:19am

re: #323 GeneJockey

Jesus, that was a crazy time. From what I read about that, there was never any evidence beyond the testimony of young children, and some of the things they claimed were done were flatly impossible, like the ritualistic torture and bloody sacrifice of zoo animals.

And where do you go to buy back your good name if you’ve been falsely convicted?

That’s what sucks about these type of cases where people are railroaded often by a zealous prosecution looking to appear “tough on crime” rather than actually pursue justice. I don’t know if someone can honestly get their name back after such a case. You can spend a whole lifetime gaining a name and reputation but you can lose all that in one quick swoop and it’s harder to regain that. It just sucks.I actually thought of the three teenagers in Arkansas accused of murdering the young boys though when I read the story. The ages of the accused, time period, and Satanic accusations.

326 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:07:57am

re: #324 GeneJockey

At some point, the switch will be flipped, and Zimmerman will become a typical violent Latino whom they never REALLY supported, but they wanted to make sure he wasn’t railroaded, and Trayvon was still a thug.

Conservatives are really good at revsionism, even WRT their own individual history.

Damn nailed it.

327 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:14:19am

Featured title at UAE book fair:

“Blood For The Pie Of Zion”

328 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:21:52am

I’m so pleased that Dean Smith is receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom. He’s a wonderful man, humanitarian and coach.

329 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:22:25am

re: #316 Vicious Babushka

HURR HURR

[Embedded content]

Yes, and all liberal women want to screw him.

330 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:33:24am
331 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:33:57am

IT’S A COOKBOOK!

332 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:34:25am

Make the pie Zioner!

333 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:37:24am

re: #328 Justanotherhuman

I’m so pleased that Dean Smith is receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom. He’s a wonderful man, humanitarian and coach.

One of the best ever but also a fine man who wanted the best for his players and community.

334 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:37:59am

I just flew into this comment section, and boy are my dinging arms tired!

335 Political Atheist  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:43:46am

Oh and speaking of Google they have a request. Paged.

336 Political Atheist  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:44:23am

re: #334 erik_t

I just flew into this comment section, and boy are my dinging arms tired!

Heh, lifting a finger is hard work sometimes. :-)

337 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:47:37am

Bye, bye Miss Zionist Pie, Drove my Chevy to see Levi but the halavah was dry…

338 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:48:05am

re: #267 Feline Fearless Leader

Honestly, the biggest thing that’s helped me over the last few of years has been adopting a big dog. She was a horribly neglected and really sick as a baby, so I had to put a lot of myself into taking care of her. Now that she’s an adult, she needs daily walks, which forces me to get out of the house when I really do not want to some days. Doesn’t matter what mood I’m in or anything else, that dog has got my back. If I don’t feel like getting out of bed, she snuggles right up next to me and gives me kisses and gently prods me out of bed with her whole face, lol. She doesn’t care what I look like or what mood I am, she loves me regardless. We’ve logged 1.3 MILLION steps since the end of July when I started keeping track. That breaks down to around 425 miles, and that’s not counting what we did before then. Exercise is a HUGE thing for me, without it I go into a tailspin.

I also know the bad days don’t last forever. When I’m sad I make myself say that out loud. It’s hard to do that sometimes, but I also have a kid on the autism spectrum, and he’s WAY braver than I am and faces challenges with the best attitude, so who am I to whine that much? He still needs his Mom sometimes, and I OWE him to be there as much in one piece that I can.

Simple things, but they work for me. There’s other stuff, building a garden is a tremendous help for me too, it forces me out the door and into the sunshine. Nothing fancy really, just what feels right to me.

339 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:54:18am

re: #338 A Mom Anon

Honestly, the biggest thing that’s helped me over the last few of years has been adopting a big dog. She was a horribly neglected and really sick as a baby, so I had to put a lot of myself into taking care of her. Now that she’s an adult, she needs daily walks, which forces me to get out of the house when I really do not want to some days. Doesn’t matter what mood I’m in or anything else, that dog has got my back. If I don’t feel like getting out of bed, she snuggles right up next to me and gives me kisses and gently prods me out of bed with her whole face, lol. She doesn’t care what I look like or what mood I am, she loves me regardless. We’ve logged 1.3 MILLION steps since the end of July when I started keeping track. That breaks down to around 425 miles, and that’s not counting what we did before then. Exercise is a HUGE thing for me, without it I go into a tailspin.

I also know the bad days don’t last forever. When I’m sad I make myself say that out loud. It’s hard to do that sometimes, but I also have a kid on the autism spectrum, and he’s WAY braver than I am and faces challenges with the best attitude, so who am I to whine that much? He still needs his Mom sometimes, and I OWE him to be there as much in one piece that I can.

Simple things, but they work for me. There’s other stuff, building a garden is a tremendous help for me too, it forces me out the door and into the sunshine. Nothing fancy really, just what feels right to me.

Something along those lines might work as an approach.

With the daughter in school that might give her more free time to do things - volunteer work or simply getting out and about. The two dogs are a bit much for her to handle (80-90+ pound German Shepherds), and they obey her husband more than they do her in any case.

A garden might be a possibility. Something she can do with her daughter as well if she has an interest in growing things. Or maybe see if she is going to go back towards sewing and knitting work like she was previously doing before the disruptions.

340 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:56:35am

re: #161 wrenchwench

Would you give up coffee if it would make it better?

I tried, hormones trump all other drugs.

341 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:57:19am

re: #59 BishopX

Not a fan of child porn, but what google, yahoo and microsoft did here will end up haunting them. .

Here’s a protip: You’re starting on the wrong foot when you begin a sentence with, “Not a fan of child porn….” and not “Child porn is disgusting, vile, and should be banned everywhere….”

Conversely, it’s ok to say, “Not a fan of coconut cream pie….”, or “Not a fan of yellow Lamborghinis….”, or “Not a fan of Kid Rock….”

Get it? I doubt it.

342 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:58:07am

How is life today?

343 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:58:53am

Changing my nic…

344 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:58:58am

re: #334 erik_t

I just flew into this comment section, and boy are my dinging arms tired!

Me too. I can’t believe anyone, let alone multiple anyones, would attempt to justify child porn by evoking 1A rights. Disgusting.

345 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:59:24am

re: #299 GunstarGreen

To Obdicut: I personally don’t believe that those controls should exist. Certainly they could use whatever system they were going to use to detect and censor, and instead use it to detect and report to the proper authorities. Find those bastards and prosecute them as hard as possible. But I don’t think that it’s a good thing for a company to have a button they can press that makes undesirable information suddenly disappear — not when ‘undesirable’ can be defined arbitrarily if they so wished.

So you’re saying that Google should be able to detect child porn, but it should then still deliver those images of child porn to anyone searching for them?

And Google already has a button they can press that makes any sort of information they want disappear. This is what I’m not getting about your argument. It’s their entire business model to be able to sort and order information in the ways they want.

346 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 8:59:41am

re: #342 FemNaziBitch

How is life today?

Enjoying my day off. Contemplating whether to make today my vegetarian day or not. Probably will do some reading after I do my daily work out after lunch.

347 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:01:34am

re: #339 Feline Fearless Leader

Whatever her passion or talent is, that’s the key I think. Activity that takes you out of your own head, doesn’t matter what it is. Volunteering at school didn’t work for me, there’s a clique of moms that refused to let anyone new in unless your kids were part of the “in” group. It was insane and stressful so I quit with a little flip of the bird and a hearty kiss my ass. This is weird community, lol. I never tried to do other stuff outside school beyond the occasional thing, mostly because I was needed at home helping the kid get from grade to grade and dealing with school issues. Now that he’s away at school, I’m finding it hard to adapt, I’d really just like to have a job, even if it’s only part time minimum wage. I’ve been looking for 6 months, I can’t even get a call back. So onward, something’s bound to give with persistence.

348 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:01:53am

Is 48 down-dings approaching any records?

349 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:02:28am

re: #348 Dr. Matt

Is 48 down-dings approaching any records?

Anne France had something like -600

350 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:03:17am

re: #349 Learned Pie Of Zion

Anne France had something like -600

Wow.

Was that the one that politely told the truth about Sarah Palin?

351 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:03:18am

re: #349 Learned Pie Of Zion

Anne France had something like -600

On one statement? I’m curious to know what that was then heh.

352 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:05:24am

re: #351 HappyWarrior

On one statement? I’m curious to know what that was then heh.

littlegreenfootballs.com

353 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:05:40am

re: #351 HappyWarrior

On one statement? I’m curious to know what that was then heh.

Palin: littlegreenfootballs.com

354 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:05:40am

re: #351 HappyWarrior

On one statement? I’m curious to know what that was then heh.

She said something about Sarah Palin that, ironically, most of us would agree with now. All the piled on downdings happened because:

1. She said Sarah should have aborted the Down baby
2. There was no time limit on down dings

355 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:06:12am

re: #352 Dr. Matt

littlegreenfootballs.com

Coke jinx!

356 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:06:49am

re: #352 Dr. Matt

littlegreenfootballs.com

Damn. Shows how the place has changed.

357 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:06:50am

Gah, gotta get back to work. BBL

358 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:06:54am

To the people who dislike that Google has this capability to tailor search results, how is this objectionable while you are in general saying you’re ok with child porn being removed from the Internet (to the extent that it is possible)? Isn’t that much more equivalent to censorship, to actually remove the published document instead of removing a link to the published document?

359 GlutenFreeJesus  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:07:48am
360 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:08:57am

re: #356 HappyWarrior

Damn. Shows how the place has changed.

Indeed. I remembering mocking this site back in the day and referring to it as ‘Little Green Goofballs’. hehe

361 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:08:58am

re: #354 Learned Pie Of Zion

She said something about Sarah Palin that, ironically, most of us would agree with now. All the piled on downdings happened because:

1. She said Sarah should have aborted the Down baby
2. There was no time limit on down dings

Gotcha. PS love the new SN.

362 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:09:17am

re: #311 Vicious Babushka

Have you ever thought about writing a book of your experience raising a special needs child? Your posts here are very passionate and you are a good writer.

When you choose to be financially dependent on someone it changes a lot of the dynamics. I battle my inner-self constantly on the issue.

Overall, I’ve tried to internalize the concept that I am not valued by my bank account or my personal earnings power (which will never be the same as my husbands, barring a fluke best selling book or fad interest in my artwork). The things I am good at are not reliably marketed into a steady or sustainable income.

I keep remembering that my problems are “first-world” problems and I am lucky to have them. Lucky to be there for my parents, son and husband. If I were working, even in a meaningful career, I would wish I was there for my family.

The grass is always greener, in a sense.

I try to use my time and talents to fill in the gaps for other people—when they ask.

363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:09:49am

re: #350 Dr. Matt

Wow.

Was that the one that politely told the truth about Sarah Palin?

Anybody saying “This woman should have aborted her baby” is going to get dogpiled, and should.

364 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:10:03am

re: #360 Dr. Matt

Indeed. I remembering mocking this site back in the day and referring to it as ‘Little Green Goofballs’. hehe

Heh yeah my friends who knew about it could not stand it. I think it’s become the best center to center left blog out there. Plus Charles often has good music at the end of the day and as a music person first and politics follower second, that’s awesome.

365 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:10:06am

WTFITS

366 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:11:38am

re: #294 Sol Berdinowitz

Government is bad, shutting it down was good.

That simple.

/

I’d love the Freudian analysis of how a Government ‘of the people, by the people” is bad.

LOL

367 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:11:57am

re: #365 Learned Pie Of Zion

WTFITS

[Embedded content]

Ah, where I grew up.

368 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:13:17am

re: #358 klys

Lost on a whole lot of people who think that Google is doing something wrong by no longer linking to this material (comment 1) is the fact that Google is a private company with absolutely no obligation to link to anything, anywhere, at any time. It’s a private entity and doesn’t have to link to anything it doesn’t want t in its search results. It has proprietary search algorithms that it can tailor as it sees fit.

Just because someone published child porn doesn’t mean that Google (or Ask or Yahoo or anyone else) has to link to it or include it in searches.

At the same time, that doesn’t mean, however, that a law enforcement agency couldn’t ask Google for assistance in searching for those who put child porn online. The assistance could come in the form of tailoring a search engine product for their use, obtaining warrants or subpoenas for the suspected illegal usage of Google services (search, Google+, mail, etc.)

369 Dr. Matt  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:13:22am

re: #363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Anybody saying “This woman should have aborted her baby” is going to get dogpiled, and should.

Except for the the simple fact that your quoted statement doesn’t exist. True story.

370 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:13:25am

re: #365 Learned Pie Of Zion

WTFITS

[Embedded content]

Another day in post-racial America.

371 theliel  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:14:28am

re: #365 Learned Pie Of Zion

Grosse Point. I mean…they’re basically competing with Howell (one time Home of the John Birch Society) for ‘most racist city in Michigan’.

The competition is exceedingly strong.

372 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:15:02am

re: #371 theliel

Grosse Point. I mean…they’re basically competing with Howell (one time Home of the John Birch Society) for ‘most racist city in Michigan’.

The competition is exceedingly strong.

Don’t leave out Dearborn Heights.

373 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:16:27am

Third e-mail sent to the TA letting them know that the online hangout for office hours isn’t working. It’s been 45 minutes since the start.

I got up early for this too. -_-

374 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:17:07am

re: #371 theliel

Grosse Point. I mean…they’re basically competing with Howell (one time Home of the John Birch Society) for ‘most racist city in Michigan’.

The competition is exceedingly strong.

I had no idea about Howell. HA!

And yes, having spent age 5-14 in GPP, I can attest. I tell young people that I grew-up just like in the book/movie, the Help. Only the Northern Version.

We had our cleaning lady only once a week and I LOVED HER.

If you saw a AA person in your neighborhood who was not obviously a cleaning lady walking to the bus, you called the police. Kinda like George Zimmerman. NO JOKE.

375 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:18:30am

re: #311 Vicious Babushka

Oh thank you. I have thought about it, I’m just not sure how to protect my son’s privacy while doing that. I’d also have to be brutally honest, and I’m not sure how he’d take some of that. His infancy and toddler years were simply horrible about 95 percent of the time(he didn’t sleep for more than 45 minutes at a time until after age 2. He didn’t sleep through the night until almost age 4- he was still in diapers in kindergarten). There was some joy there, obviously, but it was not a warm and fuzzy time. But yeah, I’ve started and stopped that process a few times. I think there’s a book in there somewhere, just not sure how to tell the story and not hurt the kid in the process. I need to sit down with him and talk with him about what would be in the book and why I want to share it. I don’t want to hide behind a pseudonym, if I’m gonna do it, I’m going all in.

376 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:19:42am

re: #375 A Mom Anon

Oh thank you. I have thought about it, I’m just not sure how to protect my son’s privacy while doing that. I’d also have to be brutally honest, and I’m not sure how he’d take some of that. His infancy and toddler years were simply horrible about 95 percent of the time(he didn’t sleep for more than 45 minutes at a time until after age 2. He didn’t sleep through the night until almost age 4- he was still in diapers in kindergarten). There was some joy there, obviously, but it was not a warm and fuzzy time. But yeah, I’ve started and stopped that process a few times. I think there’s a book in there somewhere, just not sure how to tell the story and not hurt the kid in the process. I need to sit down with him and talk with him about what would be in the book and why I want to share it. I don’t want to hide behind a pseudonym, if I’m gonna do it, I’m going all in.

I find that journaling helps me cope—it’s a kinda therapy. You may gather enough to put it into book after time.

377 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:25:58am

re: #342 FemNaziBitch

How is life today?

Company HQ Thanksgiving lunch. Turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, etc. (Boston Market), HUGE table of desserts - mix of store bought and homemade.

Currently noshing of a piece of pecan pie that includes Kahlua in the ingredients. Not overly sweet and has nice coffee undertones.

Meeting with my boss in 1/2 hour to review task progress year-to-date. Which will include talking about recently completed training *and* implementation that was supposed to happen by 10/1 that has gone nowhere in the last 3-4 months.

Sort of a bit of a see-saw today.

380 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:30:09am

I never noticed this Derp at the end of the rant:

Where I might have otherwise been amused by the silly photo of Sarah Palin in a Stars ‘n Stripes bikini, toting a shotgun, all I see now is trailer trash

That silly photo was a Photoshop, looks like AF was pwn3d by it.

381 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:31:08am

re: #366 FemNaziBitch

I’d love the Freudian analysis of how a Government ‘of the people, by the people” is bad.

LOL

Depends on your definition of “people” and whether there are distinctions that mean some deserve better status or protections based solely on some arbitrary standard.

382 Bubblehead II  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:33:55am

re: #379 FemNaziBitch

Sarah made a CHOICE! Her Choice.

THAT is the whole point.

That every child be wanted.

No argument from me. AF on the other hand had a severe problem with her choice, gave voice to it and got rightfully hammered for it.

383 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:36:41am

While we’re talking about most-dinged comments, which comment has received the most UPDINGS?

I’m thinking it might be the get-well dings for CL when she had her aneurysm, but is there any way to tell?

384 Lidane  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:45:03am

Every character death in Game of Thrones (so far):

instagram.com

385 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:46:20am

re: #384 Lidane

Every character death in Game of Thrones (so far):

instagram.com

Tonight’s South Park is a GOT spoof.

I admit I only know about GOT as a pop culture reference, I have never watched an episode and could not get more than 10 pages into the book.

386 Lidane  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:48:06am

re: #385 Learned Pie Of Zion

Tonight’s South Park is a GOT spoof.

I admit I only know about GOT as a pop culture reference, I have never watched an episode and could not get more than 10 pages into the book.

Same here. I haven’t read any of the books. When I interned at a game studio two years ago, folks there told me I really didn’t need the books to understand the TV series since it pretty much follows them. Still haven’t gotten around to watching the show, but I’ve gleaned enough from conversations online to get the gist of things.

387 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:48:37am

Oh wow, just got a notice from a recruiter for a FORTRAN programmer.

I haven’t programmed FORTRAN in 20 years.

I see they want to convert some 30 year old code to ASP.NET.

389 theliel  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:53:42am

I feel exceedingly bad for the humans that have to consume and categorize the media for Google. Working at a photo lab Back In The Day was bad enough - I can’t imagine getting paid to do it.

So..this entire thing is bait - it’s the ‘stop beating your wife’ of traps for anyone with concerns.

I think that hiding the pictures/content is most likely in the best interests of everyone but there are also considerable (at least in the US) barriers into effective enforcement that make the situation worse - Merely seeing the image/media is a crime and if you attempt to report it you face having your entire electronic appliance suite confiscated and reviewed for any additional illegalities. There’s also to my knowledge no central method or contact information to report the issue to ICE.

That being said I think the dudebros are conflating several separate distinct issues which clouds some legitimate concerns.

Is google/bing etc. a common carrier? If they are then censoring is a problem because as a common carrier they don’t get to pick and choose what to allow through their gatekeeping. At this point Bing and Yahoo both partially rely on google searches and there are few viable search engine alternatives. There is a worry that once it is acceptable to censor particular search results that it becomes easier to add additional categories. Remember that Ma Bell did at one point block what you could use a telephone for and the US Mail would also open and refuse to ship ‘objectionable’ material so this is not something without precedent. This is how the ‘common carrier’ structure evolved and it is an important idea to preserve.

You couple that with the current state of US ‘child porn’ laws (hope all your ‘pictures’ on your HDD have copyright stamps of companies that have complied with the Bushies ‘war on porn’ law lizards - otherwise you have to put up an affirmative defense proving that the models were all of-age when the media was created) that continue to catch 17 year-olds sending selfies to their bf/gfs and what you have is a gigantic dudebro bait ball of suck.

In short - child porn bad. We should probably change the subject to something less triggery if we want to have a rational conversation about when, where and how Search Engines, ISPs and other common carriers should be censoring things but if we are going to have a constructive conversation about these ideas we’re going to need a new subject.

How about we just replace all the slope theory subjects with ‘porn legal at the US federal level and the states asking google to block content that violates local laws’ I think you’ll get a much better outcome.


Because I really don’t see anyone able to say in good faith that they are in favor of sexual exploitation of children.

390 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:55:34am

Search engines are not common carriers. Google’s entire purpose in life is resorting and rejiggering the search results according to their tailoring algorithms. They push some things up, and they push other things down.

That’s literally why they exist.

391 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:55:44am

ibtimes.com>ibtimes.com>I’m getting images of the monolith from Space Odyssey, in my brain.

392 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:59:20am

re: #386 Lidane

Not missing a thing.

393 theliel  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:59:44am

re: #390 erik_t

Search engines are not common carriers. Google’s entire purpose in life is resorting and rejiggering the search results according to their tailoring algorithms. They push some things up, and they push other things down.

That’s literally why they exist.

And when they start to simply rabbit hole events? They may rijigger but usually do not remove? The Tienanmen Square example above? How about in the UK where the Torries are trying to scrub every speech given for the past decade from existence - if they were in power they could just simply issue a law to make the search engines do this.

Honest question - How do you use the current internet without a search provider? At one point a phone line was a luxury and not worthy of any protection - how has the internet not gone from ‘nice to have’ to ‘nearly necessary’?

394 Interesting Times  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:00:55am

re: #383 Learned Pie Of Zion

While we’re talking about most-dinged comments, which comment has received the most UPDINGS?

I think it was a comment by HoosierHoops about his son, though I have no clue which one…

395 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:02:30am

re: #393 theliel

And when they start to simply rabbit hole events?

When we slide that far down your slippery slope, please let me know and then we’ll talk about it.

396 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:03:28am

re: #391 FemNaziBitch

ibtimes.com>ibtimes.com>I’m getting images of the monolith from Space Odyssey, in my brain.

Now look what you made me do.

Youtube Video

397 theliel  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:05:16am

re: #395 erik_t

When we slide that far down your slippery slope, please let me know and then we’ll talk about it.

China already has. Thailand is working hard. Iran is trying to build an entire sub-internet which is where China is also headed.
The Torries in the UK are giving it a good honest go.

Do you honestly think that no one is going to do it given the technical capabilities?

398 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:08:06am

re: #397 theliel

Yes, I think that no country in the free world will force private-industry search engines to restrict legal content, or substantially change how we currently define legal content. You will note that all three of those countries that have actually restricted any internet content also strongly restrict content of, you know, all other types.

Do you have any other questions, or shall I go ahead and fold you a nice new hat?

399 RadicalModerate  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:08:06am

I see the BBC (and BBC America) is really starting to ramp up their programming for Doctor Who’s 50th Anniversary broadcast. Just caught this short commercial of well-wishers, which may be one of the coolest ones in recent memory just because of the people involved.

Youtube Video

400 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:08:42am

CHILD RAPE WANTS TO BE FREE

401 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:09:13am

re: #389 theliel

So..this entire thing is bait - it’s the ‘stop beating your wife’ of traps for anyone with concerns.

I think some people are actually concerned about the children who are abducted and abused in the process of making child porn.

How about we just replace all the slope theory subjects with ‘porn legal at the US federal level and the states asking google to block content that violates local laws’ I think you’ll get a much better outcome.


Because I really don’t see anyone able to say in good faith that they are in favor of sexual exploitation of children.

Are you suggesting this approach because what Google is proposing is too difficult?

402 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:10:06am
403 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:11:03am
404 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:11:58am

re: #286 GunstarGreen

That poster was then accused of “supporting” CP.

To be precise, that poster was accused of supporting the PUBLICATION of child porn, and that’s exactly what he was doing.

405 b.d.  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:15:08am

I believe this blind acorn has found a squirrel:

I don’t think he was supposed to say that out loud and give away their game though.

406 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:15:29am

I will never cease to be amazed how little people understand about the internet… on the internet.

407 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:16:13am

re: #401 wrenchwench

Child pornography is a CRIME. It’s raping and hurting kids. It creates a horrible cycle that can take generations to break. What about sex trafficking and the online connection that helps that flourish? Legalize it being online at the federal level and give control to the states? Is this person seriously kidding me? How the hell is that a solution of any kind?

You know, our individual rights stop the second they infringe on the rights of others. Do kids not have the right to NOT BE RAPED FOR SPORT AND PROFIT? Really? Maybe I’m misunderstanding this “freedom of information” thing or something. Child Porn isn’t INFORMATION. Seriously.

408 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:17:53am

re: #407 A Mom Anon

And not only that, but private companies apparently have an obligation to provide this wretched “content” when they are asked, because reasons and freedom and lookit over there it’s a Red China!

What in the actual fuck?

409 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:18:52am

GLORIA STEINEM AT THE National Press Club:
Youtube Video

410 Amory Blaine  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:22:35am
411 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:26:18am

We apparently have more than one person around here who supports the publication of child porn.

412 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:26:55am

re: #411 Charles Johnson

We apparently have more than one person around here who supports the publication of child porn.

They are all so very principled, you see.

SMFH.

413 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:29:55am
414 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:32:01am

re: #412 erik_t

Well, they are willing to make the truly difficult decisions, so that shows their virtue.

415 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:32:27am

re: #366 FemNaziBitch

I’d love the Freudian analysis of how a Government ‘of the people, by the people” is bad.

LOL

What they generally mean is “Government of Those People by The Right Kind Of People for Rich People. Anything else is TYRANNY!!!!!11!!1!!

416 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:33:11am

re: #408 erik_t

The stunning lack of empathy or moral compass in these “defenders of liberty” is damned near as alarming as the actual child porn itself. Would they continue to say what a slippery slope this is into OMGCOMMUNISM if it was one of their siblings or their own child being raped for fun and profit? Being sold into sex slavery? Would that be OK too?

Block it, ban it, burn the places where it’s happening to the fucking ground and then take the ashes and bury them in the deepest pit possible. Take the makers and takers of it and throw them in federal prison and keep them there with no access to anything remotely resembling a computer or a camera EVER AGAIN.

Seriously, if the people who run search engines and control ISPs wanted to start erasing history and destroying our freedoms they have the means to do it without using child porn as an excuse to do so. JH Christ, Esq on a freaking bicycle.

417 kirkspencer  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:37:30am

re: #398 erik_t

Yes, I think that no country in the free world will force private-industry search engines to restrict legal content, or substantially change how we currently define legal content. You will note that all three of those countries that have actually restricted any internet content also strongly restrict content of, you know, all other types.

Do you have any other questions, or shall I go ahead and fold you a nice new hat?

There are three ways countries in the free world force private-industry search engines to restrict content. The first is to declare it illegal. The second is to declare it a threat to national security. Finally there’s the threat to public safety.

Remember 2001? Shortly after that attack the USAPATRIOT act was passed. Accompanying it was a vast spread of ‘recommendations’ to libraries that various things get removed - things like maps of public facilities and directories to ‘threat-sensitive’ offices.

Now I do think theliel has gone sideways if not hyperbolic using child porn to springboard to common information, but please don’t trash the message because of the messenger.

418 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:38:27am

re: #414 Internet Tough Guy

Well, they are willing to make the truly difficult decisions, so that shows their virtue.

Such as: “Shall I spew my clueless upper-middle-class white male privilege onto reddit or onto a tech blog today?”

419 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:43:18am

Gah, Chobani yogurt tastes like chalk!

420 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:43:37am

Now what I’m going to have for lunch? :(

421 b.d.  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:44:03am

re: #420 Learned Pie Of Zion

Now what I’m going to have for lunch? :(

Pie?

422 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:45:05am

Wait, let me see if I understand this:

A private company provides a free service that allows users to search the internet for whatever they want. That company manipulates the searches to favor their customers (who aren’t the users, BTW), and suddenly it’s a bad thing that they block access through their service to illegal activities that feature the harming of innocent children for the sexual gratification of pedophiles.

Manipulating the search results to favor their customers - THAT’S okay.

Blocking access to images and videos of children being raped - that’s bad?

Have I got that right?

423 erik_t  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:45:13am

re: #420 Learned Pie Of Zion

Now what I’m going to have for lunch? :(

Pizza with pineapple.

But you can’t google it; they’ve banished those results from the internet.

424 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:46:49am

re: #420 Learned Pie Of Zion

Now what I’m going to have for lunch? :(

I say, go with genuine chalk.

425 A Mom Anon  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:47:04am

re: #417 kirkspencer

So what’s the message here then? Banning online access to child porn via Google is somehow a bad thing for freedom?

426 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:47:29am

re: #418 erik_t

Such as: “Shall I spew my clueless upper-middle-class white male privilege onto reddit or onto a tech blog today?”

Prole detected. A true freedom fighter posts about difficult choices on Twitter or writes for Salon.

427 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:47:32am

re: #422 GeneJockey

Wait, let me see if I understand this:

A private company provides a free service that allows users to search the internet for whatever they want. That company manipulates the searches to favor their customers (who aren’t the users, BTW), and suddenly it’s a bad thing that they block access through their service to illegal activities that feature the harming of innocent children for the sexual gratification of pedophiles.

Manipulating the search results to favor their customers - THAT’S okay.

Blocking access to images and videos of children being raped - that’s bad?

Have I got that right?

Also, it’s censorship for this private company to remove links to the content but taking it offline is totes ok (which yes, it should be, this part isn’t hard).

428 b.d.  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:47:34am

re: #424 BongCrodny

I say, go with genuine chalk.

and stay with the white chalk, not any of those fancy colored ones.

429 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:48:21am

re: #419 Learned Pie Of Zion

Gah, Chobani yogurt tastes like chalk!

My wife seems to like it. Then again, she seems to like ME, so what does that say?

430 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:49:18am

re: #428 b.d.

and stay with the white chalk, not any of those fancy colored ones.

Tell us more.

431 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:49:26am

Look how Glenn defends the guy who stole 60,000 credit card numbers and posted them on line. FREE ALL TEH INFORMATIONS!!11!!!11

432 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:49:27am

re: #413 Learned Pie Of Zion


None Dare Call It Batshit.

433 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:50:47am

re: #428 b.d.

and stay with the white chalk, not any of those fancy colored ones.

Are you kidding? If it wasn’t for green chalk I’d never get any roughage.

434 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:51:27am

re: #427 klys

Also, it’s censorship for this private company to remove links to the content but taking it offline is totes ok (which yes, it should be, this part isn’t hard).

The crazy thing is that Google blocking it doesn’t remove it from the internet, it just makes it less convenient to find it.

This whole thing reminds me of a scene from ‘Tombstone’, where Virgil Earp has take over as Marshal, and is enforcing a ban on carrying guns in town:

“Nobody’s saying you can’t own a gun. Nobody’s saying you can’t CARRY a gun. All we’re saying is you can’t carry a gun IN TOWN.”

435 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:51:55am

re: #431 Learned Pie Of Zion

He’s going to be pissed when he finds out one of his credit card numbers was stolen…..

436 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:52:14am

re: #433 BongCrodny

Are you kidding? If it wasn’t for green chalk I’d never get any roughage.

If you use green chalk on a green blackboard, can you even see it?

437 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:52:40am

re: #434 GeneJockey

The crazy thing is that Google blocking it doesn’t remove it from the internet, it just makes it less convenient to find it.

This whole thing reminds me of a scene from ‘Tombstone’, where Virgil Earp has take over as Marshal, and is enforcing a ban on carrying guns in town:

“Nobody’s saying you can’t own a gun. Nobody’s saying you can’t CARRY a gun. All we’re saying is you can’t carry a gun IN TOWN.”

Which is what makes the cries of censorship so odd. Especially when the same people are ok with REMOVING IT FROM THE INTERNET.

Note, again: I am in support of removing child porn both from the Internet and from search listing.

438 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:52:55am

re: #435 Internet Tough Guy

He’s going to be pissed when he finds out one of his credit card numbers was stolen…..

Personal financial information wants to be free, man!

439 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:53:23am

re: #419 Learned Pie Of Zion

Gah, Chobani yogurt tastes like chalk!

Did you ad honey?

I like their Vanilla flavor —it works well in smoothies.

440 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:54:38am

Gloria Steinem is 79 years old!

441 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:54:45am
442 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:55:42am

re: #436 GeneJockey

If you use green chalk on a green blackboard, can you even see it?

It’s not for writing, silly.

Hey, if everybody wants to come over for supper tonight, I’m serving Crayola crayons, paste and Play-Doh.

443 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:56:42am

re: #440 FemNaziBitch

Gloria Steinem is 79 years old!

444 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:57:08am

Happy birthday, Vice-President Biden!

445 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:58:18am

And today in NYC:

446 Pumpkin Pie Of Zion  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:59:07am

Wingnut butthurt over the PMOF

447 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 10:59:09am

re: #442 BongCrodny

It’s not for writing, silly.

Hey, if everybody wants to come over for supper tonight, I’m serving Crayola crayons, paste and Play-Doh.

At a 2-day mandatory Project Management training session, we were given packages of some Play-Doh-like modeling clay in multiple colors. One woman sitting at my table spent an hour carefully sculpting a hamburger, right down to the sesame seeds on the bun.

448 Bubblehead II  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:01:55am

re: #422 GeneJockey

Wait, let me see if I understand this:

A private company provides a free service that allows users to search the internet for whatever they want. That company manipulates the searches to favor their customers (who aren’t the users, BTW), and suddenly it’s a bad thing that they block access through their service to illegal activities that feature the harming of innocent children for the sexual gratification of pedophiles.

Manipulating the search results to favor their customers - THAT’S okay.

Blocking access to images and videos of children being raped - that’s bad?

Have I got that right?

Pretty much. Disgusting isn’t it.

449 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:02:07am

re: #437 klys

Which is what makes the cries of censorship so odd. Especially when the same people are ok with REMOVING IT FROM THE INTERNET.

Note, again: I am in support of removing child porn both from the Internet and from search listing.

Wait - what? Actual censorship of child porn is good, but blocking convenient access to it via a privately-owned service is censorship, and that’s bad?

How does this even make sense?

450 kirkspencer  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:03:00am

re: #425 A Mom Anon

So what’s the message here then? Banning online access to child porn via Google is somehow a bad thing for freedom?

No.

Google should block child porn, and even if google wants to block, say, everything from and about China it’s a private company and can do that.

That’s why I made the remark about the messenger.

But the belief that no free world government puts on restrictions is false. And one avenue to restrict is to make things illegal.

451 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:07:10am

re: #449 GeneJockey

Wait - what? Actual censorship of child porn is good, but blocking convenient access to it via a privately-owned service is censorship, and that’s bad?

How does this even make sense?

I don’t know, but that has been the takeaway I’ve gotten from some of the arguments folks have posted above.

452 kirkspencer  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:08:47am

So as a separate post, a concern on the child porn issue.

If a grandmother takes a picture of her grandchild in the bath and shares it with the family is it child porn?

Answer: maybe.

That’s part of the problem I have with blanket condemnation of child porn. Some stuff is easy, such as showing children in what appear to be sexually inviting positions. But how do you tell if that naked smiling child sitting in bathwater is porn or grandmother’s pride without knowing who has it and who is looking at it?

Google is going to block child porn, great. And because it’s so subjective they’re going to hire people to do it - because the computers can’t.

So, what do you think they’ll instruct the people to do on “maybe” cases? I dunno, and I’ll be interested in seeing.

453 GeneJockey  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:12:53am

re: #452 kirkspencer

So as a separate post, a concern on the child porn issue.

If a grandmother takes a picture of her grandchild in the bath and shares it with the family is it child porn?

Answer: maybe.

That’s part of the problem I have with blanket condemnation of child porn. Some stuff is easy, such as showing children in what appear to be sexually inviting positions. But how do you tell if that naked smiling child sitting in bathwater is porn or grandmother’s pride without knowing who has it and who is looking at it?

Google is going to block child porn, great. And because it’s so subjective they’re going to hire people to do it - because the computers can’t.

So, what do you think they’ll instruct the people to do on “maybe” cases? I dunno, and I’ll be interested in seeing.

I’m pretty much okay with Google not allowing random strangers to find innocent naked kid pics posted by proud grandmas, too.

When the current child porn laws were passed, there were concerns expressed that it might make things like Romeo and Juliet illegal, since they were both under the current age of consent, and they were being portrayed as having a sexual relationship (and the 1968 Zeffirelli version shows both of them in the buff), but AFAIK nobody has called for it to be banned.

454 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:13:27am

re: #452 kirkspencer

People have had to make those types of subjective decisions for a while now, though. Folks developing photos, for example.

My guess is things like context, number and variety of images, where things are linking to it - things like that will all make a difference.

455 theliel  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:53:40am

re: #417 kirkspencer

There are three ways countries in the free world force private-industry search engines to restrict content. The first is to declare it illegal. The second is to declare it a threat to national security. Finally there’s the threat to public safety.

Remember 2001? Shortly after that attack the USAPATRIOT act was passed. Accompanying it was a vast spread of ‘recommendations’ to libraries that various things get removed - things like maps of public facilities and directories to ‘threat-sensitive’ offices.

Now I do think theliel has gone sideways if not hyperbolic using child porn to springboard to common information, but please don’t trash the message because of the messenger.

Which is why I said we should stop with the CP talk if you want to have a coherent conversation about the roles of Search Engines, ISPs and governments in the free exchange of information on the internet.

The ‘advice’ to libraries is an excellent example - A gentleman around 2002 was mapping all the various service utilities and factories in the US. This was to be used by academics and industry folks to streamline infrastructure repair and redesign. It got scuttled because ‘manual for terrorists’ or some such.

The same reason why we have no idea how many fertilizer factories are near schools - ‘that could be used by terrorists!11!11!1’
Conveniently it could also be used as evidence that maybe, possibly, just a smidge that building/zoning codes are a Good Thing that prevent problems.
Instructing google to hide ‘sensitive topics’ from the public is an excellent way to prevent political opponents of being able to mobilize by being unable to even promote the issue as a possible problem.

So…question 1 - how are you people using the internet without a search engine?

If you need a search engine does that search engine server a common group of people?

Do you want your search provider, with no way of you knowing if they don’t disclose it, deciding what you have access to?

Because I thought ‘the free market will punish/reward good actors’ was the glibritarian line that wasn’t tolerated around here.

456 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 11:58:43am

re: #437 klys

Which is what makes the cries of censorship so odd. Especially when the same people are ok with REMOVING IT FROM THE INTERNET.

Note, again: I am in support of removing child porn both from the Internet and from search listing.

It comes out odd when you conflate concerns over the control that private entities have over access to what has become a basic resource in modern first-world life with ‘supporting the publication of criminal material’.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, and once again everyone will completely ignore it and kneejerk downding me: it’s not about defending abhorrent criminal practices. It’s about the questions raised by the power of unaccountable entities to exercise a large degree of control over what information the public has access to.

I want the material gone, just like you do. I don’t want it to be linked to, just like you don’t. I think the people involved with its production are scum, just like you do. But I would rather its removal be handled by attacking the source of the problem, which is specifically and directly targeted at the problem itself, instead of developing a means of ‘hiding’ the problem — a means that could then also be used for less scrupulous ends once it’s in place.

But whatever. Nobody cares. They see “children” and short-circuit, and assume that anybody that has any ideas different from theirs is some sort of cartoonishly evil thug that “supports the publication”. There’s clearly no room for nuance in this discussion, so screw it.

457 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:00:21pm

re: #416 A Mom Anon

Speaking as someone who was raped as a child, I cannot begin to express how devastating it would be to me if I learned there were pictures of it. It would be incredibly hard to deal with. Just the idea—and I’m ‘lucky’ in that I’m older, so there wasn’t this ubiquitous phone-camera thing when it happened to me— that I can be pretty certain there aren’t such pictures— makes me cringe.

458 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:01:37pm

re: #456 GunstarGreen

It’s about the questions raised by the power of unaccountable entities to exercise a large degree of control over what information the public has access to.

They are not a public entity. They are a search engine. There are literally hundreds of others you can use. You can, I am very sure, find one that will not discriminate against child porn. Google has no obligation to do so. Your argument stands on a fallacy.

459 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:06:14pm

re: #458 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Except that a number of other major search engines now rely in part on Google’s results. There’s a reason that the phrase “Google it” has largely replaced “do an internet search for it” in common parlance. In a perfect world, everyone knows the exact IP address of every resource on the entire web so they can go to it all directly without the need for an intermediary. We’re not there yet. Until we are, search engines are de facto gatekeepers. And there’s a legitimate discussion to be had about the power of those gatekeepers, the role it plays in modern society, and what if any limits should be placed on it.

“Find one that doesn’t censor child porn” is specious. It really is, and it’s getting irritating. I have said, over and over and over, that it’s not about that.

460 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:12:06pm

re: #456 GunstarGreen

Google already tailors its results. ALREADY. And in some places, it censors them to fit with government requirements.

To pick this issue now - here - and to say well, I don’t like that they can do this and I don’t think they should but if they’re technically able to do so the Internet as we know it will cease to exist and therefore I must die on this hill to prevent that, even though this is scummy scummy criminal speech - maybe that, combined with the facts already in place and mentioned above might explain why the response has been like this.

The place for a nuanced discussion should not be regarding easy access to child porn. Full stop.

461 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:15:51pm

re: #459 GunstarGreen

Except that a number of other major search engines now rely in part on Google’s results.

There are still ones that don’t. Use one of them instead.

In a perfect world, everyone knows the exact IP address of every resource on the entire web so they can go to it all directly without the need for an intermediary. We’re not there yet. Until we are, search engines are de facto gatekeepers.

No, that’s not what they are. They are search engines. Your ‘perfect world’ is frankly bizarre, since it’s not something that’s possible, people can’t memorize every web address in the world. When you’re positing something that’s not possible as ‘perfect’, your thinking has gone awry. You can get web addressed sent to you without using any search engine at all— people can pass the knowledge along just like any other knowledge. You can get them from business cards, you can get them from wise domain-name buys. But that is really besides the point, because Google is not the only search engine.

And there’s a legitimate discussion to be had about the power of those gatekeepers, the role it plays in modern society, and what if any limits should be placed on it.

That discussion takes place in the context of violation of rights. For example, you could argue that Google applying some filter that removed results that involved black Americans would fall afoul of anti-discrimination laws, or— as is actually the case— when Google starts publishing scanned books. The discussion happens. But there is no context in which suppressing child porn violates anyone’s rights, and a strong argument that its distribution and facilitating that distribution does violate someone’s rights.

“Find one that doesn’t censor child porn” is specious. It really is, and it’s getting irritating. I have said, over and over and over, that it’s not about that.

It doesn’t matter what you’ve said, it matters what you’ve made an argument for, and you haven’t made an argument for that.

462 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 12:39:16pm

re: #455 theliel

Do you want your search provider, with no way of you knowing if they don’t disclose it, deciding what you have access to?

Newsflash! Google already decides what you have access to, with every single search.

463 theliel  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:01:02pm

re: #462 Charles Johnson

Newsflash! Google already decides what you have access to, with every single search.

I’m not sure Google not being treated as a utility severing the general public is a good plan.

We clearly don’t see eye to on on this.

I do not think that people have thought through the consequences of this stance.

I don’t know of any Lizards who did this but when the MPAA/RIAA wanted the same thing from Google and other providers (using the same justifications as earlier in the thread: Illegal activities backed by international law) many people reacted negatively to the idea.

Either way I started with “this is a when did you stop beating your wife trap” and what do I get? #411. It’s the classic “You disagree with how a problem is being addressed therefore you are pro-problem” otherwise known as ‘you are either with us or against us’.

464 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:03:32pm

re: #463 theliel

I’m not sure Google not being treated as a utility severing the general public is a good plan.

Because they’re not a utility serving the general public, for one thing. And if they were, that wouldn’t change the argument about whether or not aiding the distribution of child porn through allowing it to appear in search results is a good thing or it. It’s not dependent on the private/public status.

I don’t know of any Lizards who did this but when the MPAA/RIAA wanted the same thing from Google and other providers (using the same justifications as earlier in the thread: Illegal activities backed by international law) many people reacted negatively to the idea.

Can you explain why the MPAA/RIAA wanted Google to censor child porn?

465 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:06:17pm

re: #463 theliel

I do not think that people have thought through the consequences of this stance.

I could accuse you of not having thought it through from the point of view of a child being held captive and being forced to do things he or she doesn’t want to do, but then I’d be leaving myself open to cries of, ‘You’re baiting me!!!’

466 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:16:27pm

re: #456 GunstarGreen

But whatever. Nobody cares. They see “children” and short-circuit, and assume that anybody that has any ideas different from theirs is some sort of cartoonishly evil thug that “supports the publication”. There’s clearly no room for nuance in this discussion, so screw it.

Having an opinion that doesn’t match yours is not the same thing as ‘short circuiting’. I don’t assume you’re a thug, but you seem to feel free to assume I have not thought things through. From #286:

But is the price worth it? Maybe that’s worth a bit more examination.

467 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:17:34pm

re: #456 GunstarGreen

Rating: -1

That was an index finger jerk, not a knee jerk.

468 dr. klys  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:20:43pm

re: #463 theliel

Pretty sure copyright violations are not criminal but civil. Also, I’m pretty sure I see Google put up DCMA takedown notices in search results all the time, so pretty clearly the RIAA/MPAA is having an effect there anyway.

If you want to make a public utility search engine, go right ahead. I’m pretty sure Google is happy to continue being private-sector company, who is free to make their own decisions wherein they will balance scope (because people do want an effective search engine) against legality, with some fuzzy areas based on morality.

469 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:28:54pm

re: #468 klys

Oh, he was comparing the copyright stuff to childporn?

Er, the problem with child porn isn’t the goddamn copyright. Jesus. If you can’t figure out what the difference is between child porn— something illegal in and of itself, a depiction of an actual and terrible crime— with a pirated copy of Spacejam, I don’t know how I can make it clear. One is illegal in and of itself, illegal because of what it depicts, and the other is ‘illegal’ because it is a copyright violation, the content itself is not in any way criminal, just the ‘format’.

470 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:31:51pm

re: #456 GunstarGreen

But whatever. Nobody cares. They see “children” and short-circuit, and assume that anybody that has any ideas different from theirs is some sort of cartoonishly evil thug that “supports the publication”.

The comment in question EXPLICITLY supports the publication of child porn. That’s exactly what it says. Quote:

Believe in ABSOLUTE freedom to publish. No matter how disgusting.

That’s perfectly clear.

471 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:36:35pm

re: #470 Charles Johnson

The comment in question EXPLICITLY supports the publication of child porn. That’s exactly what it says. Quote:

That’s perfectly clear.

Will you quit smearing people by quoting their exact words?!? That’s not nice!

472 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:46:14pm

There’s a tendency in the tech world to cling to absolute principles like “information wants to be free,” and I think it’s more of an excuse for not dealing with important but thorny issues in a responsible way.

As a private company, Google has absolutely NO constitutional mandate. The First Amendment does not apply to private corporations. But Google’s reach is so vast that by not dealing with issues like child porn they’re actually helping it spread. That’s why it’s a good thing that they’re finally starting to be aware that they can’t hide behind this “information wants to be free” bullshit to dodge their own responsibilities to society.

473 jvic  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 1:58:46pm

IMHO part of the conflict between Hollywood and Silicon Valley is who is responsible for policing copyright. The tech side claims that Hollywood wants to shift the effort and expense onto other entities, including the government. The tech side also claims that, if practical at all, doing the policing would be prohibitively expensive in terms of dollars, reduced efficiency of the Internet, and foregone innovation.

But if child porn is policed via Internet search, Hollywood can claim that the technology can be adapted to copyright.

(A long time ago I read a Big Media strategist quoted, in a repellent way, per the foregoing, but didn’t save the link.)

474 William of Orange  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 6:41:20pm

Some essential information was omitted.

This is a rare cooperation between Google and Microsoft.

475 palomino  Wed, Nov 20, 2013 9:19:19pm

re: #413 Learned Pie Of Zion

Before the internet, that was the best that fanatics could do when it came to outrageous slandering of the president. Thank god we can now see thousands of great political smear jobs due to that series of tubes we get info from.


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